# 'The Odyssey' Is an Epic Adaptation Worthy of Homer’s Poem

An episode of [It Was A Book First](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1896902131), 22 Jul 2026, 1 h 35 min.

Audio: https://episodes.captivate.fm/episode/c99746a5-63f3-4397-855d-7251c44d234d.mp3

This week, It Was an Epic Poem First! Sophie and Rudi discuss one of the most anticipated adaptations of the year: “The Odyssey,” director Christopher Nolan’s take on Homer’s epic poem. The blockbuster adaptation of the ancient Greek work follows Odysseus, the King of Ithaca, on his long journey to return home after the Trojan War. Matt Damon, Anne Hathaway, Tom Holland, Robert Pattinson, Charlize Theron, Elliot Page, Zendaya, and Lupita Nyong'o are just some of the stars who help bring this 3,000-year-old epic to the screen. Before talking about the film in detail, Rudi and Sophie share their general thoughts on Nolan’s take (00:04:03) and briefly detail the histories (00:08:15) behind the poem, Emily Wilson’s 2017 translation, Nolan’s adaptation, and prior attempts to bring “The Odyssey” to screens. Then they have a spoiler-filled chat (00:29:28) about “The Odyssey,” tracking the long journey Odyessus takes throughout the nearly three-hour epic while detailing some of the major (and subtle) changes Nolan made to Homer’s poem: the opening scene; the Cyclops battle (00:47:00); the breathtaking Trojan horse and Troy scene (00:52:46); Circi’s island (01:01:41); and the final conclusion (1:21:15). Along the way, they explore why Nolan’s choices served the movie and the story, the impressive filmmaking craft on display, why Damon’s Odysseus is very different from the trickster in the poem (01:17:48), and how the film is in conversation with our modern times. Finally, Rudi makes his choice (01:30:03) for which he liked better: listening to Claire Danes narrate the Wilson translation of “The Odyssey” or watching Nolan’s film. We’ll continue discussing “The Odyssey” in our next episode, which will feature a conversation with professors who have studied Homer’s work and teach it to college students. It Was A Book First is the podcast about new book-to-screen adaptations. Subscribe now to get new episodes delivered weekly on Wednesdays. Follow us on Instagram: @itwasabookfirstpod TikTok: @itwasabookfirst YouTube: @itwasabookfirstpodcast Email: itwasabookfirst@gmail.com Hosts and producers: Sophie Vershbow and Rudi Greenberg Editing: Rudi Greenberg Social media: Sophie Vershbow Music: Cliff Blum and John Connelly; music production: Kevin Pons Logo: Trisha Louise Prieto Website: Kevin Pfab

## Transcript

Sophie Vershbow (00:10)
I'm Sophie and I love books.
Rudi Greenberg (00:11)
I'm Rudi and I love movies, and this is It Was a Book First, the podcast about new book-to-screen adaptations. Today we're a long way from home and we're trying to find our way back to our podcast. We're discussing a modern take on an ancient source text, Christopher Nolan's adaptation of Homer's epic poem, The Odyssey.
Sophie Vershbow (00:30)
If you're new here, Rudi and I are culture reporters with bylines at Esquire and the Washington Post. And on this podcast, we discuss the page to screen adaptations that everyone is talking about.
Rudi Greenberg (00:40)
Now, Sophie, this is usually where I would say you read the book, we both watch the adaptation, and then you tell me all about the differences. But today, the tables have turned. For the first time, and it was a book first history. I read the book, or I guess I should say the epic poem, and you have not.
Sophie Vershbow (00:59)
No, I just got to show up to the movie and then come to this podcast. I had a great time. thank you for taking this one on.
Rudi Greenberg (01:06)
Course, of course. it was it was fun. It was fun to get to do it this way. And so there will not be a Sophie's choice today, but there will be a Rudi's choice, which I'm excited about. We'll see how many of those end up actually happening in the future. But for now we have one. and now Sophie, you are not coming to the Odyssey completely cold, despite having not read the the poem.
Sophie Vershbow (01:27)
Yeah, I am what I would kind of self-describe as like a Greek myth girly. I was obsessed with these stories as a kid. I remember reading like that very classic orange book of Greek myths with the four white horses on the cover and just like checking it out from the library all the time. I have read Circe by Madeline Miller. I think this is like a really big moment for fans of that and Song of Achilles.
Rudi Greenberg (01:41)
Okay.
Sophie Vershbow (01:53)
and then also in college, I in one of my sort of like nerdier moments decided to audit Greek tragedies then and now comp lit class because I had to drop it to take something for my major. And the thought of not getting to go to it was just like too upsetting to me. So I went and just did the reading and participated in class. And there we sort of read like all the stories of the side characters in the Odyssey. So everything about Agamemnon and
Antigone and Clymanestra and all these people. Antigone's not on the Odyssey, but all of those sort of classic tragedies. And yeah, I love lore. So this is just all deep lore. I I I love it.
Rudi Greenberg (02:34)
So you're you're familiar with the Odyssey, you just haven't engaged with that text directly before until watching this film. And I I think I had probably studied this in high school, although studied I would put in air quotes because I doubt I read it. I probably just read Spark Notes or Cliff Notes and did what I had to do. So it was really cool to get to engage with it this time and and also engage with a kind of unique translation of it, which we'll we'll talk a little bit more about.
Sophie Vershbow (02:40)
Exactly.
Rudi Greenberg (03:02)
but first, if you're interested in engaging more with the source text, you know, I am not an expert. I'm gonna do my best to to walk us through the differences, but we do have a couple of classics professors who are going to come on the podcast and talk to us about.
All the differences. We're gonna do a deep dive. We're gonna learn a little bit more about Homer's poem and how it relates to Christopher Nolan's movie in more of an academic sense. So keep an eye out for that episode, which will be dropping very soon after this one. So before we get into talking about the movie, the epic poem, I'm just gonna go over the just just the log line, the little plot real quick of what the Odyssey is, right?
Sophie Vershbow (03:46)
Short yeah, no, just a a brief
summary.
Rudi Greenberg (03:48)
Very, very simple story.
Odysseus, king of Ithaca, embarks on a perilous journey to return home after the Trojan War. That's it. We don't have to talk about anything else, right? That's it. That's that's the movie. That's the poem. We're done. no, let's get right into it. Let's let's talk first. Sophie, I mean, I'm just I want to hear your general thoughts. What do you think of Nolan's The Odyssey?
Sophie Vershbow (03:58)
That's that's the whole story. Mm-hmm.
I left the movie theater really, really liking it. And in the two days since, I have really come to love this movie. I am impressed with it as a storytelling feat. I think the way that he manages to make the Odyssey, the longest sort of stretching thing into this very mixed timeline story, just made the whole thing propulsive. Those three hours.
It wasn't until like 2:50 that I started to be like, I could like use a bathroom break, like a stretch of the legs. You know, I would I was really locked into this and I'm so excited to talk to you about sort of all these very intentional decisions around how things were made, how the story was done, because it's really masterful. What about you?
Rudi Greenberg (04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Yeah. I mean, this is this is a big one, right? I mean, when we first started talking about this podcast, this is the movie that I pointed to and said, this is why we need to do this now, because this is coming out this summer. This is going to be huge. It's going to be one of the biggest movies of the year. And it's it's based on one of the oldest stories known to man. And, you know, there's a lot of anticipation coming into this after the success of Oppenheimer, not only
Sophie Vershbow (05:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (05:32)
At the box office level, but critically, with him being kind of anointed as, you know, an Oscar winner. And I went into this with high expectations. I went into this with the knowledge of kind of the general story of what the Odyssey is supposed to be, at least. And I loved this movie. I mean, I I like you, the first time I watched it, I really, really liked it. And I was like, I'm really impressed. I did a lot of so then I saw it again and loved it.
Sophie Vershbow (05:56)
So you've already seen this movie twice. Rudi! You didn't tell
Rudi Greenberg (06:02)
even more. So that's that's I think a testament to how good this movie is. The first time it was a lot of okay, so this is different. Okay, this is how they're telling the story. Okay, this is how it's being done. I know. And this is often how I view like a big epic film the first time is I'm just kind of absorbing everything. And I'm I'm understanding it and I'm I'm I'm trying to pay attention but also like engage with the story. The second time
Sophie Vershbow (06:08)
Mm.
Well, you are now living my experience of every week.
Rudi Greenberg (06:31)
I was actually able, I feel, to like really immerse myself in it and just approach it as like I am watching a really well crafted movie that I know the story of and I know kind of the beats. And I just I loved it. I actually felt it dragged a little the first time, the second time didn't drag at all for me. yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (06:44)
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
See it again, which I I can
tell you going in, I did not expect to want to see this movie a second time. But and I I did not see it on IMAX. I live near the Lincoln Center one, but I truly was like these are not like I I'm not one of you. Like I I can't take a ticket from someone. Like, please just go enjoy. so I saw it in a normal theater, but I I would really like once the the hubbub dies down to go see it on IMAX.
Rudi Greenberg (07:12)
Yes. I
I saw it in like standard IMAX, so not the 70 millimeter full frame IMAX that you could you could see it in near near your home. but I saw it twice in IMAX and it was great both times. I mean it's it's propulsive, it's big, it's loud. it is it's a it's an epic film. And I I just really enjoyed it and I'm really excited to dig in and get to talk about.
Sophie Vershbow (07:17)
Community.
Mm-hmm.
It is loud. It is very loud. Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (07:41)
So much because there's so much to unpack with this film and this poem. But first off, let's talk. yes. A lot of a lot of discourse. before we do that, I do want to just chat a little bit about like our screenings because I think that's part of the fun of this, is that Nolan movies are events, they very much feel like an event. I was at a packed Saturday, 10 a.m. screening where
Sophie Vershbow (07:44)
Yeah. And a lot of discourse, a lot of discourse happening on the internet right now.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (08:06)
Pretty much every seat except for like the first two rows were filled. Everyone clapped at the end. There was, you know, laughter in the very few laugh lines that Matt Damon generates because I just think he can't help but do a few things that are funny. there was also a baby in in my screening, which was which was not great for the first like hour, but eventually the
Sophie Vershbow (08:19)
There's a gray one though.
no no no no no.
Not great
for their eardrums.
Rudi Greenberg (08:30)
No,
they were at the bottom two, like in the f in the first couple rows. you would see the mom kind of walk around with the baby and a baby bjorn. no, I'm I'm serious. Eventually the the the mom and the baby left, which I think was was for the best. but that just goes to show you how hyped people are for this movie. They are bringing those their children to it so that they can see it on opening weekend.
Sophie Vershbow (08:35)
He fruity No stop. That's insane.
You really just shocked me with that one. I did see a woman in the movie theater with a Yorkie like hidden in her purse. So yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (09:00)
So same, same. How was your
screening? Was were people amped? Was it packed?
Sophie Vershbow (09:04)
It was not 100% packed. I went on Sunday afternoon. Now, granted, I did go in the middle of the World Cup final, which is probably why I didn't yeah, I actually didn't realize I was doing that until yeah. Anyway, I realized after, but I did appreciate that my theater clapped at a few pivotal moments. they just like erupted into applause, which is something I always enjoy. But I will say, like, not one.
Rudi Greenberg (09:08)
Okay.
Sure. Kind of a smart move. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (09:34)
Poor behaving person in my theater, it was you could hear, well, you couldn't hear anything because of the soundtrack, but you could in theory like feel the tension, hear the pin drop. everyone was silent.
Rudi Greenberg (09:42)
He yeah. Sure, sure.
there is one non-odyssey related thing I want to talk about, which is did you get the other mommy trailer before?
Sophie Vershbow (09:54)
wait. Rudi, thank you so much for bringing us to the podcast. Because what the fuck was that?
Rudi Greenberg (09:59)
Well, Sophie. so this is if you don't know, this is a Jessica Chastain horror film that is based on a book, so we will be covering it on this podcast. I cannot wait. They don't tell you that in the trailer, and I I wasn't sure if you remembered that we talked about that, but
Sophie Vershbow (10:02)
No, it can't be based on a book.
No Stop
not even kidding, Rudi. I lean over to my boyfriend and I go, please don't be based on a book. Please don't be based on a book. And when I didn't see it, I was like, thank God, just says normal person movie. Wow. Wow. Wow.
Rudi Greenberg (10:28)
Yeah. I'm excited
for this one. This is supposed to be pretty weird. It's like like a possessed Jessica Chastain movie, but yeah, I'm excited because it's like horror and like we don't get to do a lot of horror. Although this movie kind of a horror movie at times. Kind of a horror movie. So let's
Sophie Vershbow (10:32)
It looks deranged.
This is a horror movie. Someone said though that
the other mother was right there, which like has better cadence than like the other mommy, the other mother. So now I'm annoyed about that. Anyway.
Rudi Greenberg (10:50)
yes, other mummer, other mother. Yes, that's true. That is a better name. Well, we'll
we'll have plenty of time to talk about that in in the fall. so your your history, we talked about your history a bit with the Odyssey. We talked about my history with the Odyssey. We both kind of have a little bit of knowledge, but not a ton. What about Christopher Nolan? Are you a a Nolan fan in general or not a huge fan?
Sophie Vershbow (10:57)
Yes.
Yeah, you know, I am a Nolan fan. I I feel like for a while, this is, you know, it's very weird when you sort of realize how like public perception has just impacted you. Like in my head, it was like film bro. But that's dumb because the prestige is like one of my favorite movies. I thought Oppenheimer was remarkable. Like I fully went into that prepared to be like, this is not gonna be for me. And I was just blown away.
Rudi Greenberg (11:22)
Yeah. Uhhuh, yeah.
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (11:41)
And I think, you know, I have really appreciated reading interviews with him about this, with how much care he took. I'm so impressed with his vision for this, his commitment to practical effects, to doing things right. And I am like sort of all in on Christopher Nolan right now.
Rudi Greenberg (11:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I I agree with you. I'm someone who I I've never really considered myself like a huge Christopher Nolan fan, but I think that I am without really realizing it. I've seen all of his films except for the first one following, which like I didn't even realize, you know, most of them I have seen, you know, in IMAX as like an event. Like that was, you know, kind of how I think he first really came to prominence, right? With those Batman movies and and those becoming such a big event thing. I think
Sophie Vershbow (12:13)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (12:32)
The only movie of his I don't really love and I might like if I saw it again is Tenet, yeah, which I didn't love it, but I saw it at home. I wonder if seeing it in a theater would be would be better. Oppenheimer, you know, great, great film. I didn't love it as much as kind of everybody else, but I still think it's fantastic and I'd it's one I'd like to revisit.
Sophie Vershbow (12:36)
Tennet. Tenet is a bad movie. You can't convince me otherwise.
I think it's incredible. Mm-hmm. Adapted from
a book?
Rudi Greenberg (12:53)
It is, as several of of his his films are. I I love Interstellar. I got to see that again maybe like last year or the year prior, and I thought that hit even better on on a second viewing, you know, 10 years after it after it came out. So yeah, I'm a I'm a big Nolan fan, and I think to a lot of the points you make as someone who is such a champion for film and filmmaking, and like you could argue is the most important.
Sophie Vershbow (12:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (13:21)
Director of the last 26 years. Like I think it's it's it it's it's but I think when you think about what he did for superhero filmmaking, for blockbuster filmmaking, for IMAX, it's there's an argument that he is the most important. Whether or not he's the best, that's a debate for another day, but but certainly the the one of the most important and kind of has changed the course of things a bit.
Sophie Vershbow (13:25)
I have no idea how to weigh in on something like that, but
No, that there's no such thing as the best. Like let's not be ridiculous.
And
I think too, you know, thinking about something like adapting the Odyssey, when you look at his other projects, like it really makes sense to me now, like why he was the right person to adapt this. I mean, he loves an epic story. And I think too, I really like the idea of Interstellar, Oppenheimer, and this in conversation with each other.
Rudi Greenberg (13:55)
It does. Yes.
Hmm.
Sophie Vershbow (14:14)
Really around the idea of power and regret and trying to maybe undo something that you did and and thought was the right thing to do. even more so. He loves a complicated man. But yeah, I I really this Odysseus and Oppenheimer in conversation, I think is just a fascinating pairing.
Rudi Greenberg (14:17)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sure. He loves a complicated man.
Absolutely.
I mean,
they even have parallel final speeches in in a lot of ways, which we'll we'll get to as we as we kind of run through things, but yes. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (14:47)
And parallel, you know, structures, which since of
course I I assume most people know, you know, Christopher Nolan wrote both of these and directed these. How he does that linearly and swoop.
Rudi Greenberg (14:55)
Yes, yes.
Well, there's I think there's also
a key person, his editor, Jennifer Lame, who we'll talk a little bit more about later,
Sophie Vershbow (15:07)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (15:08)
who came on for tenant and has now edited the last three Christopher Nolan films, I think also plays big into that. And we'll talk about her contributions a bit later. But let's let's start by getting into the background a bit of the Odyssey.
Sophie Vershbow (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
So good.
Yeah. Just a bit of background, couple of years.
Rudi Greenberg (15:28)
too deep detail because we will have professors on to tell us more about this, but The Odyssey if you don't know, was first composed in around the 8th or 7th century by the 6th century BC, like mid-6th century, it had become part of the Greek literary canon. It was written by Homer, although
Scholars kind of debate whether or not Homer was one person, many people, or even a person at all. Homer, of course, also wrote the Iliad, which is the prequel, if you will, to the Odyssey. and some, I believe, events of the Iliad kind of play into this version of of the Odyssey. And this was really oral tradition. That's, I think, the most important thing to take away from the the the sort of history of the Odyssey is that
Sophie Vershbow (16:04)
It really is. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (16:22)
This poem was told as a poem orally because of illiteracy. this it was performed often over multiple days as a oral tradition story. And so it evolved over time as a story. And different poets would tell this story in different ways. They would interpret it differently. They would add to it. They would take things away. And that is a great tradition that has.
Sophie Vershbow (16:37)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (16:50)
continued today. And the poet is represented in Christopher Nolan's film by Travis Scott, the first person that you see, which was kind of surprising. yeah, so it was it was kind of performed in in that way.
Sophie Vershbow (17:05)
It's really like doing crowd work, like it was
sourced. No, I'm serious. They bas, you know, parts of it were made more entertaining over time because they were responding to how people reacted to it as it was being told. And I think, you know, if you look at the Odyssey, it's like action, action, action, thing, thing. And it's like, yeah, they were playing to the crowd. We needed entertainment.
Rudi Greenberg (17:13)
Yes, yes.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes.
And it's a little slower in the poem, obviously, like there's than than than the movie version, but but yes, there is a kind of there's also a rat-a-tat to like how the story is told and like well the the the the sort of tempo of it, you know, at least in the translation that I I listen to. So I think the most famous recent translation is the nineteen ninety-six version by Robert Fagels, which was produ published by Viking Penguin and that.
Sophie Vershbow (17:33)
I'm sure.
Rudi Greenberg (17:57)
I think is often what is taught in schools, probably would have been a version that you know we would have seen if we were in school. Maybe there was an earlier one, but that was kind of the the gold standard for a while. the translation that I listened to was Emily Wilson's 2017 translation. This is the first woman to publish a complete English translation of the Odyssey. It was published by WW Norton and Company. Wilson.
Had kind of a controversial take on the Odyssey, because it is a little more feminist. It's a little progressive. She took liberties in the language to try to make it feel more modern. She did strictly maintain the original line count, 12,109 lines, and used iambic pentameter to give it this like punchy.
Kind of direct and rhythmic language, which really comes across in the narration from Claire Danes, who reads the audiobook version that I listen to. she very much views her take as an interpretation, which I think is really crucial for understanding Christopher Nolan's version of the Odyssey, because they are both very much interpretations. And Nolan used Wilson's.
Sophie Vershbow (18:53)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (19:19)
Translation as one of many inspirations, but this is one he's talked a lot about because it does portray Odysseus as a little more complicated than maybe earlier versions had, not quite the same way that Nolan interprets the character, but definitely a little, a little different. And it opens kind of famously with the line: Tell me about a complicated man, which I think is also just a great way to great opening line for.
Sophie Vershbow (19:45)
It's a great opening line.
Rudi Greenberg (19:48)
For anything. yeah. And so I listened to this translation and I really enjoyed it. I think it's engaging. let's talk a little bit about some movie background as well. So obviously, after Oppenheimer, Christopher Nolan was like on top of the world, king of Hollywood, won all the Oscars, kind of finally anointed him as
you know, this this leader in in filmmaking. He's, you know, head of the president of the DGA now. And so after the Oscars, Nolan and his wife and producing partner Emma Thomas start kind of working on his next project. There were all these rumors that he was going to do a vampire movie. Then he was going to do a reboot of a 1983 helicopter action film, Blue Thunder. And then in late 2024, we find out that he's making the Odyssey.
And Nolan had been previously attached to Direct Troy, a two thousand and four yeah, two thousand and four adaptation of the Iliad, more more so I think, than the Odyssey, but a little bit of both, I think it combines. it's more it's more based on the Iliad.
Sophie Vershbow (20:45)
my god, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
And like very important like movie
of sexual awakening for all millennial women.
Rudi Greenberg (20:59)
Sure.
but he did not feel like he was ready and instead went on to make Batman Begins, which kind of changes the course of cinematic history in both good and bad ways. amazingly, principal photography for this movie took 91 days from February 25th to August 5th of 2025. I was shocked to learn that they shot for 91 days. That's crazy.
Sophie Vershbow (21:26)
Wait, because it's so Okay, that's what I was hoping you were gonna say. I was like, that doesn't seem like a lot to get this movie done. Well, something I mean, I I'm sure you probably like a lot of people have seen all of Tom Holland's reactions to working with Christopher Nolan.
Rudi Greenberg (21:28)
It just seems like so so little. Like that's it. Yeah.
It's not a lot. It's crazy.
Sophie Vershbow (21:43)
It's been so funny to look. So basically it seems like the Marvel Universe shooting schedule is a nightmare. And he was like something that would take Marvel two weeks took Christopher Nolan two days. I can't believe how organized he is. So that's how they were able to shoot it in ninety-one days.
Rudi Greenberg (21:49)
Yes.
Yeah, it's a yeah.
He knows he's because he has really good people doing their jobs. this was the first feature film shot entirely on 70 millimeter IMAX cameras. They used a new lighter and quieter IMAX camera that was developed in collaboration with Christopher Nolan so that they could also capture dialogue. That's always the real challenge with IMAX cameras, they're so loud that you often have to ADR.
All the lines because you cannot capture the dialogue. So it still wasn't quiet enough for close-up scenes. You may have seen Anne Hathaway talking about this. She's been really hyping this up. they would build these like kind of blimps around the cameras to kind of dampen the sound and then set up a system of mirrors so that the actors could still see each other because the cameras were so big because of this blimp that you couldn't necessarily see who you were acting acting opposite against.
So they'd set up this mirror thing so that you could maintain eye contact. they used over two million feet of film reels to shoot this movie, which is insane.
Sophie Vershbow (22:56)
Well.
Now, Rudi, can I call
Rudi Greenberg (23:14)
Sure.
Why well you're getting higher fidelity and you're getting something that feels real and alive. That's the difference with, you know, film. I don't know if you picked up on this in your, you know, standard screening. It still should have looked great, but I mean it looks like it was shot on film. Like it it has that that texture to it. It doesn't feel flat and digital. What we often describe as that like Netflix look that just doesn't feel
Sophie Vershbow (23:35)
That was gorgeous. It's gorgeous.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (23:49)
real and feels kind of muted and again flat. That is that's what digital filmmaking looks like. The lighting is often not great. It just there's something unreal about it. And what is
Sophie Vershbow (24:03)
And what's
the importance of doing it on seventy millimeter
Rudi Greenberg (24:06)
I think I'm IMAX film is just is 70 millimeters. Like that's just how how it works. And you know, IMAX, if you're seeing it at some somewhere like the AMC Lincoln Square, which is a capable of projecting IMAX 70 millimeter film, or digitally it would be called like a GT dual laser film, which like if you're in the DC area, the two Smithsonians that have IMAX theaters.
Sophie Vershbow (24:09)
Okay. it just is what it is.
Rudi Greenberg (24:32)
Those are GT dual laser theaters, they're able to project on this 1.43 aspect ratio, which is really tall. So it's like this tall, yes, almost a little, a little closer to like holding a phone and looking at it, you know, as you're holding a phone. Like it's that more taller kind of image. If you're in sort of a standard IMAX laser screen, like a what we might
Sophie Vershbow (24:43)
it's getting that like it's the pictures of that extra part of it. Okay.
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (24:59)
Jokingly call Limax, that is in 1.9, which is still taller than the standard kind of like widescreen scope screen that you might see it on. but you're getting more picture essentially. And then with IMAX, you're getting just a better fidelity. One thing I would note is that if you watch particularly like older Christopher Nolan films where only some scenes are shot with IMAX cameras and some aren't, you'll notice the aspect ratio changing if you're in an IMAX theater, where like it'll be in this.
Sophie Vershbow (25:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's weird.
Rudi Greenberg (25:27)
scope thing with black bars and then it will expand and the fidelity of the image really changes when you when you see it switch and it's something that you can really pick up on because the Odyssey is in that format for the entire time. I think it's you almost don't pay attention to it as much.
Sophie Vershbow (25:43)
wondering
because when I I looked to get tickets at the AMC Lincoln Center and it was like 80 formats that I well for first of all it was all sold out and it was the amount of formats I had to choose from. I was very overwhelmed. So thank you. Anyway, back to the Odyssey.
Rudi Greenberg (25:46)
Yeah. You literally can't, yeah. Yes, yes.
Yes. Yes, it is an overwhelming thing.
the actual film reel that is used if you're seeing this in IMAX 70 millimeter is 11 miles long. the movie is just under three hours because that's the most that you can project on an IMAX projector. So there is a, you know, much more footage, but they got it down to under three. I think we made the right choice. Yeah. I think they made they made the right choice.
Sophie Vershbow (26:12)
Mm.
Honestly, I'm pretty grateful we had that restriction. I could have seen him making this like three and a half hours and making in real tired.
Rudi Greenberg (26:28)
box office wise, unsurprisingly, this movie's been a huge hit. It made 264 million worldwide during its opening weekend. It is Nolan's biggest global opening of all time, surpassing even the Dark Knight Rises. in the US and Canada, it made 124.5 million. It is the biggest live-action opening of the year. Nolan's best since 2020 twelve. And this movie's just gonna keep making money. I mean, this is gonna be something that I think is gonna.
Sophie Vershbow (26:30)
Yeah.
yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (26:57)
continue making bank all the way up until the Oscars. And we'll talk a little bit about what Oscar chances there are. But this is this movie's gonna have long legs.
Sophie Vershbow (27:02)
Yeah.
To the same way, you know, Project Hail Mary stayed in theaters for months. I think this will too. And it's not just the movie. I think the last time I looked, Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey was number two on Amazon. So the world is Odyssey pilled right now.
Rudi Greenberg (27:09)
Yes.
Yes, it's definitely we are Odyssey
pilled as we kind of expected. Now there are other there are other adaptations of the Odyssey that have been made in the past, although no one's really made a modern, large scale Hollywood movie of this. Yeah, it is. the closest was maybe in nineteen fifty-four, Ulysses, starring Kirk Douglas. And Odysseus is sometimes called Ulysses. I don't really know why I didn't dive too deep into that. We can talk to the professors about that, but that
Sophie Vershbow (27:30)
Isn't that so surprising?
Rudi Greenberg (27:47)
That happens and you know, James Joyce's 1922 novel Ulysses is in some part based on the Odyssey as well. There is a 1997 TV miniseries starring Armand Asante, that I think was maybe people's the kind of closest version of like, I've seen the Odyssey on screen was that that miniseries, Troy that we talked about, directed by Wolfgang Peterson with Sean Bean playing Odysseus and and
Sophie Vershbow (28:07)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (28:15)
Brad Pitt is, of course, in that film. That was, you know, maybe one of the more famous adjacent adaptations of of the Odyssey universe. in 2024, we got The Return, directed by Uberto Pasolini, starring Rafe Finnes and Juliet Binoche And that was actually like the second half of the Odyssey, adapted for a movie. So it's like when Odysseus comes comes back. And then arguably the best.
And most famous adaptation of the Odyssey is one that you might not even know is an adaptation of the Odyssey, and that's the Cohen Brothers, Brother, Where Art Thou.
Sophie Vershbow (28:53)
my one of the all time great movies, truly.
Rudi Greenberg (28:55)
Yes. And
is and and you might not think about it, but if you if you go and kind of trace the plot with the plot of the Odyssey, it's it's pretty pretty much the same story. Yeah. It's it's kinda wild. It's
Sophie Vershbow (29:01)
It's definitely there's a Cyclops.
Yeah, and I'd like
to just really put in a plug for anyone who has not seen that movie. It is truly phenomenal.
Rudi Greenberg (29:12)
It's so funny. Yeah.
I watched it a couple of years ago and it's again and it's it's great. I mean, it's just funny. The music's great, Clooney's great. very entertaining film. Okay. So that's kind of everything you need to know heading in. We are now going to talk about Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. We are going to spoil this movie. We are going to spoil the poem. We're going to talk about some major differences. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (29:18)
Great music.
Yeah.
Like let's all be mature about this. Like
it's been around. You had time.
Rudi Greenberg (29:42)
It's fine. I I will tell you
that I was the thing that I was most nervous about going into this was because I'm I'm, you know, engaging with the poem, am I going to be a little let down when I see the film? Because usually the reason that I don't like to read the the book beforehand is because I like to be surprised. I like to know as little about a movie as I can when I go into it.
Sophie Vershbow (30:06)
So that's me, but the exact opposite
where I need to not know what's happening in the book and then I'm okay with it for the movie, but that's why we're doing this podcast.
Rudi Greenberg (30:13)
Yeah. I don't I don't wanna
know anything if I can. I just wanna go in cold and just experience it as a s marvel of cinema. And so it was interesting going in that way, but I will say, like I said earlier, my second viewing was even better than the first. So it really doesn't matter if you know what happens. It still hits. It does not matter.
Sophie Vershbow (30:35)
Yeah, I there is so much going on in this and so much plot. Like the thing is too, we know that the Odyssey is about trials and tribulations. Like we know he has a tough time getting home. So if you're expecting him to keep landing on these islands and just be met with hospitality and ease, like I don't know what you thought you were signing up for. So it should be no surprise, sort of what might happen in some of these beats. And I just think there's too much good stuff going on to feel like.
Rudi Greenberg (30:45)
Yes.
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (31:04)
plot could ruin this.
Rudi Greenberg (31:06)
Yes.
It r it really is not that important to the actual story. And so this movie opens differently from the poem. The poem starts kind of in media res, with it starts in media res and it's it's it's really telling Telemachus' story at first.
Sophie Vershbow (31:19)
Rudi, this is so fun. Tell me, tell me what happens. I'm serious.
Okay.
Rudi Greenberg (31:28)
And a lot of the kind of preamble of the movie, the stuff happening on Ithaca at the palace, Telemachus going and trying to get more answers about his father, that happens at the beginning. We actually don't see Odysseus in the poem until book five.
Sophie Vershbow (31:42)
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (31:50)
So there are 24 books of the Odyssey. It's kind of divided into when you're listening to it, they're about 20-ish, you know, 20 to 40 minute kind of chapters, if you will. but they're books. So he doesn't show up for a while. We hear a lot about him, but it's really focusing first on Temoculus, telemachus. It's really focusing first on I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher names, but
Sophie Vershbow (32:11)
I mean I I I think though in guys in general,
we are not gonna be doing a great job with Greek pronunciation and please don't write to us about it. We Yeah, like we didn't claim to be good at it.
Rudi Greenberg (32:17)
Yes. We might just sometimes call him Tom Holland. So this is played by Tom Holland.
And you get enough backstory and detail to know what's going on, but it just kind of throws you into it, which like I did not expect for a story that is this old to not hold your hand at the beginning. I was actually very impressed by by that. And I guess it makes sense why this is something people have studied and what why teenagers find it so challenging.
Sophie Vershbow (32:37)
Yeah, that's interesting.
Rudi Greenberg (32:48)
is because
you are just thrown into it and kind of expected to figure it out as you as you go along. And so in the movie, it's a little bit different. We're doing a lot of cross-cutting. There is a lot of sort of we're jumping between different scenes. We open with again Travic Scott's, you know, barred character kind of slamming his staff, keeping the beat.
Sophie Vershbow (33:01)
Mm-hmm.
Was really expecting this to be a linear narrative. And I I almost felt like relief once I realized it wasn't going to be.
Rudi Greenberg (33:20)
Yeah.
And it becomes more linear as it as it goes on, but I I think it uses this like framing device to kind of keep it from being linear, which it also borrows from the book from the poem, but adjusts a little bit.
Sophie Vershbow (33:25)
Sure at the end, you you know.
think too the way it really unravels the carnage. Like you don't see Troy right away. Troy is flashbacks.
Rudi Greenberg (33:39)
Yes.
Well, and and Troy is not really in the poem either. That's what's that's what's interesting. And and the whole kind of opening with Elliot Page's character, Sinon who is an invention for this movie based on a like kind of different story. Sinon is not entirely invented, but is not in the Odyssey.
Sophie Vershbow (33:46)
No, Troy is part of the Iliad.
Yeah.
Right, I was gonna say
Rudi Greenberg (34:06)
Sinon is introduced in Virgil's epic poem, The A Aeneid. Aneid? The Aeneid. Thank you, Sophie. and so Nolan took that and and added it to this this story. And you know, I think.
Sophie Vershbow (34:11)
Be an ID.
And we should say the Aeneid
comes many centuries after these two, but in terms of when it was written and it was more of like a political book that was made to retell this tale. But these three, the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aeneid are often, you know, the the three major ones.
Rudi Greenberg (34:38)
And so we see Sinon standing in front of this wooden horse on a beach when soldiers approach him and shoot him and kill him after he tells them that this is a gift. And we see people dragging this horse back to Troy. And that's kind of how it opens. And
Sophie Vershbow (34:58)
Hey. They're so dumb. Like I under like
I it didn't really hit me how dumb that was until I watched it where I was like, duh, that was really stupid to bring that in.
Rudi Greenberg (35:08)
Yeah, it was. It was.
But you know, that's kind of the foundation of of the text.
Sophie Vershbow (35:12)
No, I know. It's just when you watch
it happen, you're just like, wow, that was okay.
Rudi Greenberg (35:17)
Right. And if you don't know the story at that point, you actually don't know what's going on, which I think is also really, really smart. Yeah. But some people don't. You have to think about this. Well, think about it too, that people might. I mean, I don't know about you, but I always think of the Trojan horse as like this more goofy thing on wheels. You know, I don't think of it as this like majestic, actual looking like a real horse buried in the sand that, you know, men have to pull to get.
Sophie Vershbow (35:22)
Can you imagine not okay, well sorry, I shouldn't assume things, but I feel like we know about Troy.
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (35:45)
to get to Troy. Like that was a really cool. I had that thought too. It's filled, filled with sand.
Sophie Vershbow (35:46)
Weren't they curious about why it was so heavy?
Hmm, the wood, the hollow
wood doesn't really make sense. Anyway.
Rudi Greenberg (35:57)
and so that's that's kind of a big establishing scene at the at the beginning. We are then introduced kind of again in this sort of like almost very like Terrence Mallick-y much like Oppenheimer, kind of like vibey intercutting between different scenes of, you know, you get the you get what's happening at Ithaca. You get the Penelope, who is Odysseus's wife, played by Anne Hathaway. Brilliant.
Sophie Vershbow (36:11)
Planet of the Apes.
Rudi Greenberg (36:26)
In this and we'll we'll talk more about how good she is.
Sophie Vershbow (36:26)
phenomenal performance. I think she's the
probably the strongest of the women in this.
Rudi Greenberg (36:31)
I yeah, I I
agree. we we're in the the palace with her, we're in the palace with Tom Holland, we're in the palace with the suitors, and because Odysseus has been gone for so long, it's it's been unclear, kind of like in the film, if it's like the full 20 years, at so because again, it moves around a little bit. Like sometimes it's probably a little earlier in time and sometimes it's later, but he's been gone for a long time. He's been away for a long time, and now these suitors have come to the palace and
Sophie Vershbow (36:55)
A long time.
Rudi Greenberg (37:00)
They want to take Penelope's hand in marriage because Odysseus is presumed dead. And she is trying to prevent that. And so we learn kind of a lot of the the foundations of the story, which is, you know,
Sophie Vershbow (37:07)
Yeah, they want to be the king of Ithaca.
Rudi Greenberg (37:15)
Penelope is making this loom, which is really important because it's why the suitors have not made more of an effort to be like, you must take a take a husband. She is basically making this loom and saying that when she's done with it, she will marry someone, but she unravels it every night. And this is part of Penelope's strategy and Penelope's cunning. And I think that's
One of the things that's really important about her character is that she's almost as strategic as Odysseus is. And and it's demonstrated really well, I think, in the film. And so the story kind of takes off with again, we're intercutting between sort of like different plots. We we see Odysseus a lot earlier in the film, understandably, than we would have in the the poem, because you kind of got to get to him early on. He is the star.
Sophie Vershbow (37:47)
Mm-hmm.
I think they wanted to bring Matt
Damon out.
Rudi Greenberg (38:09)
Yeah, you gotta bring
Damon out. we get this framing device involving the dog Argos, which is very, very different from the poem. And I know Sophie, you're gonna have a lot to say about this.
Sophie Vershbow (38:26)
on the dogs. Okay. Extreme warning for anyone listening. And this should not put you off seeing the movie, but there is multiple dog deaths. There's animal cruelty. There's animal cruelty. And it was upsetting. And I cried, and my boyfriend had to hold my hand. And I just I just think it would have helped if I had known going in. And so I'm telling you.
Rudi Greenberg (38:34)
There is. Especially very early.
Right.
But early early on, I think what the first like 20 or 30 minutes of the film is trying to do is set the table, right? So we're getting all these like flashbacks, we're getting some stuff in the future. We learn about Antinuus Robert Pattinson's character and and and and Sinon, Elliot Page's character, and how they traded places to fight in the war. We watch them as children watching Odysseus hunt with Argos.
Sophie Vershbow (38:57)
Sure, yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (39:18)
Argos is a dog that he essentially saves from being thrown off a cliff when a bunch of puppies are are born and he becomes a hunting dog. We see Odysseus get attacked by the boar, which is a very important thing for later in the in in the story. There's a lot of like table setting. We understand what's going on, the dynamic with the suitors and Telemachus, and
Sophie Vershbow (39:22)
Off a cliff.
Rudi Greenberg (39:46)
The John Liguizamo character, the the blind sort of seer who who's now like a pig farmer, and I'll I'll pronounce his name wrong, which is why I haven't said it, but I'll say it eventually. And we're getting a lot of table setting early on to just set this story up. And then eventually we kind of land on this framing device of Odysseus. I think there's a moment where we kind of see Odysseus sort of like wake up.
Sophie Vershbow (39:52)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (40:12)
and Odysseus is is on the beach with Calypso, played by Charlie's Theron. He's eaten the lotus flower. One of the the one of the few laugh lines in my first screening of this film was when she tells him to stop eating the lotus flower, and he goes, But I like it.
Sophie Vershbow (40:12)
Mm-hmm. He's on a vacation at an all inclusive resort with Clipso. you can eat Lotus Flower.
Yeah, that was a good one. There as you said, there's
a couple real moments where you're like, that's Matt Damon.
Rudi Greenberg (40:38)
yes, yes. and so he is trapped with Calypso and he doesn't remember what has happened. He doesn't remember the war. He doesn't remember his family. He doesn't remember why he's there. And so we use this framing device of Calypso helping him remember what has happened for Odysseus to essentially tell of his journey that got him to that island and will eventually get him home. This is very different from the poem
Sophie Vershbow (40:45)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (41:07)
In the poem, he leaves the island, goes to visit the Phaeacians, and he tells his tales to the Phaeacians. I understand why Nolan decided to nix that and just make Calypso as the framing device. One, it allows you to have Charlize Theron in for more of the story. Two, it's just a little more, it's yes, she's it's yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (41:30)
completely thinkless role. god.
That would of all the women performances, I was just like, can we get anything but you being like, remember, remember. I would have liked more.
Rudi Greenberg (41:40)
Yeah. That's basically all she does.
and so it just it makes it a little bit more compact. I think it helps keep the story from like getting too far flung and too intense. And I'm sure that there are some purists who are gonna be annoyed that that's the case, but I didn't really it didn't bug me at all.
Sophie Vershbow (41:49)
Mm-hmm.
Look, I I
think if you're a purist of the Odyssey, you're coming and prepared to hate this. Like you are someone who is not going to like a singular change made.
Rudi Greenberg (42:06)
Yes, yes. Well, and a
big a big thing with Nolan's adaptation is you just get a lot less of the journeying from like land to land and palace to palace. Like Telemachus goes to more places than than he does in the film. So does Odysseus. You just get a lot of how the different cultures
Sophie Vershbow (42:22)
Sure.
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (42:29)
Relate to strangers, which is a really big part of the story and this. Yeah, do you want to talk about Zeus's law or Xenia?
Sophie Vershbow (42:32)
Well, we should talk about that. I mean, Zeus's law. Zeus's law is essentially
the the theme of this. I saw I saw a tweet from someone say they never explain what Zeus's law is. And I was like, ex so sorry. They explain nine hundred times what Zeus's law is. So Zeus's law is essentially that anyone who comes to your home, you have to bring in because they could be a could be a god in disguise.
Rudi Greenberg (42:43)
They don't have to. It's implied throughout. Yeah.
Because they could be a yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (42:59)
And so we see this with beggars coming to the palace. We see this with how people are brought in throughout. And it is, you know, we're we're gonna get to sort of the ending later, but this is really the central theme of this movie is trying giving people who are different than you and you do not know from foreign lands shelter and treating them with dignity.
Rudi Greenberg (43:02)
Mm-hmm
Yes.
Well,
and that gets to, I think, a big theme and point of Nolan's version of this, which is it's it's modern. It is speaking to a modern audience. It is talking about immigration. It is it is it is hitting on a lot of modern themes, which I think is so deftly done in in this kind of story. It's really, really well done.
Sophie Vershbow (43:33)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, and and I think the way the the whole story reframes who is an invader, who is a host, and and how we look at how they are received on these different islands and where violations c happen or don't happen that causes violence towards one party or the other. I mean, I will just say that I I think that is why I have
Rudi Greenberg (43:56)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Well, and that's
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (44:14)
really come to feel more strongly about the movie since is because I've just really been sitting with that and reading very smart people write about it. And when you say it's deftly done, it is not banging you over the head with it. This is not a preachy movie. I did not get the sense that this movie is sort of like overly important. It just is in the story. And where I think this is such a successful adaptation is it feels
Rudi Greenberg (44:17)
Mm, mm.
Yes.
Not at all.
Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (44:43)
And where I think he, you know, used Emily Wilson's translation very specifically is it feels like it's in the text, it feels like it's in the story, it doesn't feel invented.
Rudi Greenberg (44:49)
Yes.
Yes. And even though many things are invented or interpreted from the text, it feels it feels true to it in a way I that I think is really impressive. And for all the controversy and conservative hand wringing over the casting of certain actors, the colorblind casting
of Helen with Lapidia Niango or of Elliot Page being involved. This is not beating you over the head with woke or anything like that. Like it's
Sophie Vershbow (45:15)
Yeah. Right.
No. First of all,
the idea that Lupita Nyango existing is somehow a woke statement and not just clearly showing us the most beautiful woman in the world. Like please be so serious.
Rudi Greenberg (45:30)
Yeah. I know.
Yeah. and the idea of hospitality and Xenia and Zeus's law, the idea is that really the fabric of society is crumbling because we are losing this. That is a big theme. And again, prescient. And also, as we learn as the story goes on, kind of Odysseus's fault. Despite trying to despite trying to maintain that, it is also very much his fault and something that he
Sophie Vershbow (45:45)
Hmm, pressant.
Kind of a deceased fault.
Rudi Greenberg (46:01)
reckons with. And so I think
framing device on the island allows Odysseus to tell his tale. And we then get to jump between all the travels of Odysseus and also cutting back to Ithaca, cutting to Telemachus's journey. It's it's really well done in keeping the story kind of moving and going back and forth between.
Sophie Vershbow (46:10)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (46:28)
past and and present, which is also something that the poem does really well. And so let's go through some of some of the journey.
Sophie Vershbow (46:36)
died when he was
like, I'm not gonna go behind Agamemnon. I'm just gonna go on my own route. It was like in Fiddler on the Roof when they're like, we're going to Poland and you're like, don't go to Poland. I was like, can you just take the trade routes? Like seems like a good idea, bud.
Rudi Greenberg (46:46)
Yeah.
So for some reason, Odysseus, I guess because of his own hu hubris, he decides to go, yeah. He decides to go his own way. And I think the first interaction that we get, the first sort of set piece, major set piece of the film is the Cyclops scene. And now
Sophie Vershbow (46:54)
It's just classic man, like I don't need directions, like gonna do my own thing.
The Cyclops
is so good.
Rudi Greenberg (47:12)
The Cyclops
scene is is very different from the poem. And I want to talk a little bit about that. but also it's incredibly well done in the film. It is
Sophie Vershbow (47:16)
Okay.
Did you see that
they shot this in a cave in Greece that is the birthplace of Zeus? Or rumored to be the birthplace of Zeus?
Rudi Greenberg (47:26)
I I did. And not only
that, but they used a puppet for now it is CGI in the film, but they used a puppet for the characters to react to, which I think is really, really cool.
Sophie Vershbow (47:31)
The puppet's so cool looking.
It seems like that was done quite a bit where they sort of set up something with a practical effect, like the Whirlpool, where they made a Whirlpool to then put the CGI effects into.
Rudi Greenberg (47:43)
Yes.
Yes.
And and that
creature who then pulls the men out of the ship later on as they're passing through a channel, they used some machinery to actually pull the people out, which is again super cool.
Sophie Vershbow (47:59)
cool. That was a jump scare. I did
s I did yelp out loud for that one. I was like,
Rudi Greenberg (48:05)
That was so cool.
So the Cyclops scene, which I think is really, really like tense and haunting and like horror-like in in the movie.
Sophie Vershbow (48:18)
There's a lot of body horror in this throughout. And this is one of the, you know, first places that we really see that.
Rudi Greenberg (48:21)
A lot of body horror.
Yes. we also get the artisanal cheese, which
Sophie Vershbow (48:28)
Okay, I
was really into the that got a laugh in my theater when they're like, he has like sheep milk cheese. I'd like to know more about the Fromagier, you know.
Rudi Greenberg (48:33)
Tastes good.
How
does he how does he milk the sheep? He's so big. They're so small.
Sophie Vershbow (48:40)
Okay, I
I have a lot of questions, but
Rudi Greenberg (48:46)
Well, the big so the big difference between the Cyclops scene in the book, which I want to point out, in my opinion, was the most thrilling passage of the poem. I was on a hike in in Rock Creek Park, which you're in the DC area, you know Rock Creek Park, and I'm listening to this part and I'm just like, The Odyssey. Yeah, it's like really good. I get it. I finally get it. I've been a little like
Sophie Vershbow (49:04)
Haha!
Rudi Greenberg (49:09)
I don't know about this. Like, this is this is a little slow. I'm liking it. But then I was like, finally we have some like action and it's like really thrilling. Here it's a little more like horror. And the big difference is that Odysseus kind of hangs out and talks to the Cyclops a little bit, Polyphemus. He gets him drunk. And this is an example of Odysseus showing his wit, his cunning, and his hubris because he tells him his name is nobody.
Sophie Vershbow (49:11)
Yeah.
There's a lot of action.
Rudi Greenberg (49:38)
So when they burn the eye polypolyphemus calls for his cyclops buddies, because he's got a lot of friends, to come help out. They go, Who's who's attacking you? He goes, Nobody is attacking me. And so they all leave and run away. And so then, as they're as Odysseus and his men are leaving, he says, actually, my name's Odysseus. And
Sophie Vershbow (49:53)
That's genius.
Yeah
Rudi Greenberg (50:04)
The the Cyclops, who is the son of Poseidon, says, you know, Dad, curse Odysseus and make it so he doesn't make it home. Or if he does, it takes a long time and he's alone. So it really sets the entire journey from there on. It sets it off at that point because he curses him, and and as we know, the gods.
Sophie Vershbow (50:08)
Side
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (50:30)
kind of dictate things in in this world and we can talk more about the god aspect of all of this and what the movie does and doesn't do. So it's a little bit different. And I think what's interesting about it is that it shows it shows most clearly the difference between Homer's Odysseus and Nolan's Odysseus. Homer's Odysseus is a lot more of a trickster.
Sophie Vershbow (50:37)
Sure.
Uh-huh.
Rudi Greenberg (50:53)
He is
constantly lying to people. He's an unreliable narrator. He is in disguise. He, with the case of the Cyclops, he's just kind of being a dick. Like he's just kind of it's it's his hubris, it's his wit. He's this great strategist.
Sophie Vershbow (51:04)
Yeah.
Like the
it's very much the vibe, sort of of like the George Clooney where brother brother, art thou. And that's really, I mean, historically, Odysseus was known as like the cleverest of the generals. Who and that is also I know presented as sort of in opposition to other people going to the Trojan War who are like known about brute force. And I think too that makes it.
Rudi Greenberg (51:13)
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Yes. The most adaptable man is I think a line in the Wilson translation.
Yes, yes.
Sophie Vershbow (51:35)
Even more interesting, sort of like the personal journey he goes on to re-look at the brute force that he enables.
Rudi Greenberg (51:42)
And and also it's a big difference with making Damon's Odysseus not as witty, not as much of a trickster. He's a little more straightforward, more of the everyman, more of the Damon type that we're we're used to. And this is the first time you really see that like big difference in in how it's handled. And so as someone who read the poem, I will say at first I was a little disappointed in the scene.
Sophie Vershbow (51:57)
Definitely.
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (52:09)
Because that was my favorite scene in the poem. And I was like, this is missing a little bit of that thrill that I got from from Claire Danes narrating it. And she does a fantastic job narrating this. It's really, really entertaining. but on second viewing of the film, I was like, it works on its own because it is a really great set piece, a really great piece of horror. And it is thrilling just in a different way. So that's that's one of the big major.
Sophie Vershbow (52:11)
Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (52:37)
Differences. let's I don't know if this is is exactly what comes next, but let's talk about it anyway. Let's talk about Troy. So, a big difference is that we actually get Troy in more detail in the movie than we would have gotten in the poem. And Telemachus, yes.
Sophie Vershbow (52:47)
Yeah.
It's really presented as flashbacks. Like, you know, to me, I've
seen some people be like, first of all, shut up. I mean, who cares? But I've seen a lot of people be like, that's in the Iliad. And I actually think like we are always seeing Troy in flashback. We are, you know, they're not saying like it's part of this linear narrative.
Rudi Greenberg (53:10)
Yes. No, and it's it's
really well done, and I'm really glad they did it. So Telemachus goes to visit Menelaus, who is the brother of Agamemnon. I am not going to try to explain why the the Trojan War happens, but unless you want to, Sophie, go ahead. Explain why the Trojan War happens.
Sophie Vershbow (53:25)
I can.
I'm not gonna get all the names right. Okay. Paris and Helen of Troy run aw and Helen of Sparta.
Rudi Greenberg (53:32)
Yeah.
Is
helen is Menelaus's hus wife.
Sophie Vershbow (53:39)
Wife,
wife, Paris and Helen run away to Troy, and Agamemnon is basically like, This is so offensive. I have to like go get her back. And so he unites all the kings around, like, so Odysseus being one of them, and they all go to Troy to get Helen back.
Rudi Greenberg (53:49)
Yep. Yes.
Yes.
Exactly. And in the movie, it is presented as Aggamenmon use this as an excuse to disrupt kind of the the order of things. yes.
Sophie Vershbow (54:11)
mean, I think like using like one woman, they were looking for an excuse. But I I think too, and one of the things I found most powerful, and I I'd be really curious to hear if any of this is in the poem, but the Helen of Troy scenes, like the scenes with Lupita really, really emotionally impacted me.
Rudi Greenberg (54:26)
I we should
we should ask the professors about that because I do not remember if that's as detailed in the poem or not.
Sophie Vershbow (54:33)
Her,
and I'll I'll just elaborate a little bit, but really this feeling of like I never wanted this. Like you did this, quote unquote, in my name. And I didn't want this. I don't love this person. This wasn't for me, was just really devastating. And I think Lupito only has a few moments, a few minutes of screen time. But I had never really like seen or thought of the character in that way or seen it depicted. And I thought it was really impactful.
Rudi Greenberg (54:40)
Right. Right.
Right.
Yes. Yeah.
Sure. Yeah. And
that's a that's a really good scene. Telemachus goes to to visit Menelaus. It's the it's the the wedding of wedding of their daughter, Menelaus and and Helen. And we see the example of Zeus's law demonstrated really well here, how they are welcomed in as strangers and asked to meet directly with the the king. And Menelaus, I think, clocks pretty early on that this is.
Sophie Vershbow (55:08)
Backstory.
Pretty f he's like, Hey,
you're Odysseus' son.
Rudi Greenberg (55:28)
Odysseus' son, and he just starts
telling him the stories of Odysseus, because Telemachus is looking for any information about his father. So he tells him about Troy. And we get the honestly, probably the most riveting set piece of the entire film. Let's talk a little bit about one, how they did this. So you literally see the soldiers in, and so we should note that Menelaus is played by John Burnthal, who is, I think, great in his little
Sophie Vershbow (55:35)
Mm-hmm.
My favorite scene in the movie.
I did not breathe. I did not breathe.
In
Rudi Greenberg (55:57)
Scene that he's in, the guys next to me, huge Burnthal fans. They got so excited when he appeared on screen. He's great. But we're in the horse with Matt Damon, with John Bernthal. And apparently, a few days before filming that scene, Damon asked Nolan, How are we gonna do that? And he said, I don't know. And and then on the day they all crammed into the horse. And then Nolan and the cinematographer Hoyt van Hoytema,
Sophie Vershbow (56:02)
Guy, I'm always happy to see him.
Rudi Greenberg (56:25)
Got in with a camera and that's how they filmed it. Insane.
Sophie Vershbow (56:29)
It is,
I will say that entire part of them inside. And then the sacking of Troy. To me, that is when the soundtrack or sorry, how do I say score? That is when the score just holy crap. I think that is like a scene that will stay with me forever when they are silently coming down from that horse and ransacking them, the amping up of the violence to the full scene. my God.
Rudi Greenberg (56:37)
Yes. the score. Yeah.
Yes. And it's
Yes. Yes. And then they go and they cut the guy's necks and yeah.
It's it's
remarkable, especially the how quiet it is when they are getting out of the horse. when when when we open the gates, I mean that scene of about what?
Sophie Vershbow (57:08)
Did you read about this that they surprised
Matt Damon? He didn't know that all those people were waiting back there to rush in. He thought it was like 20 people at the front line and then they were gonna yell cut. And he said 500 people just rushed at him from the dark.
Rudi Greenberg (57:23)
That's amazing.
Well, that scene, that shot where you see Agamemnon start walking forward and then all the men behind him start rushing. I mean amazing. You wanna talk about like aura farming? Like Agamemnon in this film, all aura.
Sophie Vershbow (57:35)
It's so good. I want his braid. I want the I want the metal horse
braid. I think that should be our next like fashion moment.
Rudi Greenberg (57:45)
Yeah.
That's just like an incredible shot of those men racing in and then the carnage that that comes from that. And and apparently there were two thousand extras for that scene, all in, you know, the the period specific garb. And it's just an incredible action scene. It's what Nolan does so well. It reminded me of some of his his you know dark knights action scenes, but on a grander scale. And it's just
Sophie Vershbow (57:54)
Really carnage.
Rudi Greenberg (58:15)
It's incredible. And I'm so glad he chose to put this in there. And it works really well for the story as well, because we get that scene where after they're talking about it, Telemachus says, you know, you you didn't tell me new news about my father, but you told me about who he was as a man. And it's like one of those emotional moments that really resonates. And I think, yeah, I think it's just it's incredible stuff. It's so well done.
Sophie Vershbow (58:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I I'm really someone who does not like gratuitous violence. I am not like necessarily in action. No, that's exactly what I was gonna say is it it is not like that. I think that violence in this movie is used really intentionally. What you see is it's not superfluous. It's there to serve a point. And I also think you really need that Troy scene to have the real message of the movie land and to really sort of, you know, a lot of this is reframing Troy was not some
Rudi Greenberg (58:46)
But it's not that violent. Yeah.
Sure, sure.
Right.
Sophie Vershbow (59:11)
Heroic act. We did not win in this situation. Like, we lost for everyone.
Rudi Greenberg (59:17)
Yep. in terms of plot, let's talk a little bit more about Odysseus's journey. So there is the Circe scene. We've talked about the the passage to the channel. There's the underworld. Yeah, go ahead.
Sophie Vershbow (59:30)
Can I mention one of my other faves?
So one of my other faves was the siren scene. That's another one where I think his choice around it. So what he does in the movie is we see the different soldiers put wax in their ears so that they don't hear the siren song. And just Odysseus is strapped to the mast of the ship and hearing it, but we don't hear.
Rudi Greenberg (59:35)
yeah, very brief, but well done.
When the sound is amazing when that happens, yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (59:57)
Anything. We hear the silence. And that is so smart and so impactful. And I will say I think that's Matt Damon's like strongest acting. He is you like feel it. It is visceral. I I thought it was so successful.
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:07)
Mm.
Well, and we learn what
what the sirens song is. It's like everything you wanted and then everything you didn't want to know. And then also it's his realization that maybe he does not want actually want to come home. And that is not something that's revealed in the poem. That is not you don't you don't get that sort of explanation of what it sounded like.
Sophie Vershbow (1:00:15)
It's a you didn't Yeah.
Yeah, that I had not heard like the idea of like him not wanting to go home because it's clear. I mean, I this is something that is not I I just know is not as clear in the movie versus the epic poem is like he is like two different women he's like having long-term romantic relationships with and not returning to his wife. So Cersei and Calypso. And like he both times has to sort of be like, yeah, I like want to go back.
Rudi Greenberg (1:00:37)
Well
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes.
Well, so in the
poem, he wants to go home, but like keeps going on all these like side quests that derail him on his long journey home. In the movie, he clearly has PTSD from what he what he wrought in Troy, because he is the one who came up with the idea to give the horse as a gift, as an idea of hospitality. They welcome it beyond the gates, and it brings hell and destruction on.
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:13)
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:01:24)
everybody and he is tormented by happen well by what happened in Troy, what's and what's happening in civilization as a whole and really who should lead Ithaca in the future, which is not necessarily the way he thinks in in the poem. It's it's a very different interpretation. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:35)
Mm-hmm.
I don't think we knew what PTSD was in eight thousand
BCE.
Rudi Greenberg (1:01:44)
let's talk about the Circe scene as well, which I think precedes the siren, the siren scene. And that is very different from the poem. In the poem, the men drink a potion and are turned into pigs, and Odysseus does not. And then he kind of convinces Circe like to untransform them. And then they have like a year of rest and relaxation where they just kind of hang out.
Sophie Vershbow (1:01:47)
my god.
Yeah, someone shared the
someone shared the passage of which I read from the Odyssey of him being like, Hey, you turned all my men into pigs. And then she's like, Have sex with me. And he's like, Well, all right. Okay then.
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:19)
Yeah. And that's basically what happens for a year. But in the
film, it is instead this like very brief but incredibly powerful, like gothic folk horror scene. Yes. And also another example of the filmmaking at play, practical transformation, transforming the men into pigs. Costumes, I mean makeup, you know? That's
Sophie Vershbow (1:02:28)
body hor I feel like an A twenty four like body horror movie. I was like, what the hell?
How?
How? How? It's
it is first of all disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. But my God. and her whole speech. I mean, this talk about like Samantha Morton, put her in, like this is what she's made for. And also like Samantha Morton hive rise up. People being like, who is this? I'm like, you have been missing out. That's on you.
Rudi Greenberg (1:02:59)
Yes. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:07)
I think she is so someone I'm always happy to see pop up.
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:10)
And she's great.
I mean, it's a powerful it is a powerful scene. Right.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:14)
Cersei is a sorcer a sorceress, an
enchantress. Cersei is a really complex, complicated character who has been exiled on this island. And she brings so much power to that role in like five minutes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:29)
Yeah. Yeah. It's a really it's a really remarkable scene. And that sends Odysseus to the gates of hell, essentially, the underworld, to Ha to Hades. And this is another yes, I have.
Sophie Vershbow (1:03:38)
Now here was yeah. Have you seen Hades Town, Rudi? I
Rudi Greenberg (1:03:45)
Yeah.
I I loved this scene. I thought this was the score really hit during this. And the score we can talk really briefly about Ludwig Gorenson, incredible. Like he just in general, he's probably gonna win his fourth Oscar for this, which is insane. I what I love about Ludwig Gorenson is that he made the music on the show Community, which I was a huge fan of, the Joel McHale Donald Glover show. He used to do
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:02)
I love that dude. I love when he makes speeches.
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:15)
Cho Donald Glover's rap alter ego childish gambino. He was his producer. So he comes from this lineage of making hip-hop beats. And that's that's what his scores sound like. There is this driving aspect to his score that marries kind of hip-hop production with what feels like period appropriate sounds. It's very rhythmic. There's stomping, there's clapping, using the sound of the ship as part of the score.
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:17)
Mm-hmm. I didn't know that.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:04:44)
Every time Odysseus strums his bow and you hear that, what I assume is like a liar make that note, it's like it's magical. It is, it is loud, it's aggressive, it's weird at times. it's great. I I love the score and it hits really well in that underworld scene, which is really where Odysseus has to reckon, start to reckon with what he has wrought. He communicates with the the
Sophie Vershbow (1:04:52)
Mm-hmm.
It's so good.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:14)
ghost, if you will, or or the underworld version of Sinon and Agamemnon and Benny Safdie gets his couple of lines basically warning him not to not to go through the front door.
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:23)
You can't convince me he's
in this movie, basically. I will say this is another practical effects one. Apparently, they were buried alive under the sand and were snorkels and had a countdown to do it. I mean, I don't know. That's like when I'm kind of like, all right, I don't know if I need this sag card, like I'm out. But
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:26)
He's there.
Yes.
Ja James
Remar as Tiresias is great as like the the the one who gives him the prophecy. he is fantastic. And and you know Odysseus Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:05:45)
It's really good. Mm-hmm. This is really Elliot Page's like even bigger
scene. This is really where I think he really shines, and you also learn about like even more about what happened with Ant Antonius, the Robert Pattinson character and how evil Antinius and how evil he is. And I was just so happy to see Elliot Page in this role. And I think too, you know, I don't think it was some woke.
Rudi Greenberg (1:05:55)
Yes.
Antenous. Yeah.
Yeah, he's great.
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:13)
choice, but I do also think it's a powerful statement for Christopher Nolan to cast Elliot Page in a role that's self-defined. It's like the bravest man alive, I think is how Odysseus describes him. I think it's a a really wonderful choice. And Elliot Page does a great job in the role.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:17)
Yes.
Right, right.
Yes. some other trials and tribulations that we see Odysseus and his men go through, the Laestriagonians, which are the big people, the big dudes in armor. That's changed a little bit. They're like cannibals in the poem. I honestly was like, I don't really know what this is. It's just like these big dudes that are attacking them. But I will say the stor
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:39)
The big people, yeah.
Seven foot tall
extras with five foot tall extras to make that one work.
Rudi Greenberg (1:06:51)
The score,
I was listening to the score yesterday, like on its own. It rips during that scene. Like, highly recommend you check out that song of the of the score because it's like really good. and you know, we we go, we talked about going through the passage. We we get to eventually the the beach where the sun god keeps his cows, and that is what ultimately dooms the men because they eat
Sophie Vershbow (1:06:58)
Yeah.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:20)
The cows that they're not supposed to eat. And that sends Odysseus on his way to Calypso, which also kind of sends him on his way home.
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:28)
This one so
this got the biggest laugh in my theater was when he says, Like, Did you think that if you hid that like we wouldn't see you eat the hamburgers? I was just like, This is that's funny.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:32)
Which part? Yes. Classic Matt Damon Matt
Damon line. And that that really sets up the end game, which is Odysseus going back to Ithaca in disguise as a beggar.
Sophie Vershbow (1:07:44)
Mm-hmm.
I will say the
only part of this movie I found unrealistic, which is a ridiculous sentence, was when he lays on the raft and somehow just like washes up an Ithaca. Can you tell me what happens? Cause I didn't get that.
Rudi Greenberg (1:07:59)
Just well, okay, so let's talk about that because what we haven't what we haven't
talked about is the gods. So the gods are very much downplayed as a as figures in this, but if you watch the movie thinking about their presence, they are there throughout. Even at the very beginning, when that first beggar comes in to the banquet hall at the castle and Telemachus says you have Athena's eyes, you never know he could be a god in disguise, and then thunder cracks.
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:06)
Barely in this. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:29)
that is meant to be a sign of Zeus, sending his thunder. And you will see Calypso often looking up and around as if she's waiting for a sign from the gods. And so the way that Odysseus, for example, gets back to Ithaca, it's Athena, played by Zendaya in in the film. The only god we really see is is Athena.
Sophie Vershbow (1:08:51)
Yeah. I very much
interpreted it a to me this felt like a more human retelling of the Odyssey. It is more
Rudi Greenberg (1:08:59)
Yes. I think it's more
it's more that they they they believe in the gods. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:04)
It's how they experien it's how they would
experience the gods through weather, through random things. You wouldn't experience it by Zeus coming down and being like rrrr.
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:11)
Absolutely.
And in
the poem, the gods are characters. You they they have lines. they're much more involved. Athena
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:21)
What do you
think about his decision to not put other gods into this movie?
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:24)
I think this was
so smart. I really do. I mean, Athena accompanies Telemachus for a lot of the first part of the story. I think that having it be more of a like existential threat or an existential being and more of a faith kind of principle, I think it's more effective in that way. And it grounds it in like reality a bit more. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Don't you think it would have felt a little sillier
with gods in it? It makes it feel like a Disney movie.
Rudi Greenberg (1:09:53)
I do. I think just using Athena,
just using Athena, I think works because you need to have some representation. Athena, because like Athena transforms Odysseus throughout. Like Odysseus is a shape shifter in the poem. And so when he comes back home, he is transformed to look really old. he doesn't just naturally look old, and then she transforms him to look really young when he when when when he's revealed to Telemachus.
Sophie Vershbow (1:09:59)
We barely use Athena. I mean
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Athena's doing some like
light plastic surgery work in her spare time.
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:23)
So it's it's very different in that sense. And I think again, a smart choice for a modern audience and a modern telling of this story. Athena essentially becomes like, yes, Athena's still a guide and is pushing him to do certain things, but also kind of a moral voice of reason. And in literally in in the way that Athena manifests as Zendaya's character, which we later
Sophie Vershbow (1:10:28)
Mm-hmm.
I did not miss them, I can say that.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:10:51)
Or Zendaya's presence, which we later learn, is also a priestess who is beheaded at Troy, that Odysseus locked eyes with while a Athena statue's head was also being cut off. And so I I think it's it's a it's a persistent memory for him of everything that he's wrought while he communicates with this god who has his back, basically. And that's, I think, also another interesting thing about the Odyssey as a story is that.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:12)
I agree with that. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:21)
When you're reading poem, one of the things I found frustrating was that it feels like the gods are just in control. It doesn't really matter what they do because the gods are just gonna make whatever happen, happens, happen. And in the movie, it doesn't, yes, things are fated and yes, the gods are are pulling the strings, but it doesn't feel as pronounced. It feels like Odysseus does have some agency. The characters actually do have agency in the choices that they make, which I didn't feel.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:47)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:11:49)
quite as strongly in the poem because there's so much talk of of the gods. And Odysseus is often described as the godlike Odysseus, said over and over again, the godlike Odysseus, which is never even his physique is never even talked about in the in the film.
Sophie Vershbow (1:11:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
we see it. Matt Damon takes his shirt off quite a few times.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:08)
We see it, but it's not, you know, it's
not made a a thing, you know, his his his power is not really expressed in the way it is in the in the poem. And so Odysseus comes home and and again, this is a bit of a difference in that he comes and intercepts Telemachus and then and essentially helps Telemachus evade the suitors who have been plotting to kill Telemachus.
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:13)
Sure, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:12:37)
Instead, Odysseus first is like disguised, disguised talking to like a beggar or a servant or something like that. Then he's talking to John Liguizamo's character, Eumaeus. He also talks to his father, Laertes, who is not part of the film at all. And tell Telemachus does not figure out that Odysseus is Odysseus. He is told by Athena, because Athena says, All right, it's time to tell.
Sophie Vershbow (1:12:45)
Yeah. Just like Rapta.
Rudi Greenberg (1:13:07)
Telemachus that you're who you are, and she transforms him back into his his like normal self. And so that's how it's revealed. So instead of the whole scene with Argo, where the dog, where Odysseus comes in, sees the dog, kind of pets it, and you see the dog's tail wag, and then it it dies. And that's how Telemachus realizes that it's it's him. That is is a very quick scene in the poem where it's like, we learn about the dog.
Sophie Vershbow (1:13:13)
okay.
Mmm not okay.
Rudi Greenberg (1:13:37)
We're reminded of the dog. He sees the dog sees him and then the dog dies. That's that's much more quick. It's not this like emotional core.
Sophie Vershbow (1:13:42)
It's like the first example. Wow, this
is probably like a really broad statement, but it to me seems like the first mention in literature of dogs being beloved. I will say the way they do it with that dog's that dog's tail just stopping wagging immediately after. I was just like, what the fuck? And I'm okay with it because it is in the Odyssey. Whereas I don't think the dogs getting barbecued or getting thrown off the cliff were in the Odyssey.
Rudi Greenberg (1:13:51)
wow.
Yes.
Yes.
I don't
think so, but I'm not 100% sure. They would have been minor things if they were. I don't think throwing off the cliff is because again, Argos isn't as big, as important of a character. Not an emotional framing device the way that it is in the movie. And that is I should also note that that is something that Emily Wilson has a problem with. with the so she gave an interview with the AP where
Sophie Vershbow (1:14:14)
Yeah, I I think we could have skipped the dog barbecue.
They picked a really
I definitely had the idea that I would name a dog Argos after watching this.
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:14:38)
She kind of she questioned both the absence of the gods on screen. She has some issues with the incoherent messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope's role to be thinned out. And she said that the scenes with Argos, quote, catered toward modern sensibility sentimentality. Everybody's a sucker for a dog. it works. Chill. Like you, you're not the the only person who can interpret.
Sophie Vershbow (1:14:57)
Yeah, sure.
That is correct. Yep. Yeah. All right. I don't know if we can tell Emily Wilson
to chill. She's like the one person who doesn't have to chill in this situation. But I do find in general, the look, look, I'm the person who usually comes on this podcast and talks a really big game about the changes made and why they piss me off in a lot of cases. But I do think trying to say that Greek.
myths and oral tradition and these stories that have been around and interpreted a million ways for so many years cannot take creative liberties is like one of the silliest things I could hear. These stories are so old they are meant for reinvention and reinterpretation. And I have really enjoyed some reading that I've done different articles around like it is meant to be interpreted for a new time. That is like
Rudi Greenberg (1:15:46)
Yes.
Right. Right.
Sophie Vershbow (1:15:58)
Part of what makes it so timeless over millennia.
Rudi Greenberg (1:16:02)
Right. Well,
okay. So I I think of it a little bit this way because I listened to the audiobook. So I experienced it like I know people have their issues with audiobooks and whether they're reading, right?
Sophie Vershbow (1:16:12)
not
here, not in this home. Audiobooks are reading. We don't, we don't say otherwise. I do think you're kind of wild for doing this via audiobook. Like I could not have paid attention to it.
Rudi Greenberg (1:16:16)
Yeah. I would have
I would have never
read it if I if I had to actually read it. And so listening to it, also I wanted to listen to it because it felt true to how most people first discovered this story when it was being written. You heard it, you experienced it performed by a poet, in this case, Claire Danes, who does a great job of being theatrical with her performance.
Sophie Vershbow (1:16:34)
Yeah.
It's yeah.
Haha!
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:16:49)
I experienced it the way that it was originally experienced. And I think that that was a helpful way to experience the story and understand it as well in the context of Nolan's Odyssey, because this is just another interpretation. And just like we we wrote the Odyssey into text to be read, we are now putting it on screen to be consumed as a full every sense experience. And that is what.
Our modern sensibility is made for to experience a story like this. We have the technology to make a story like this. I want to see it brought to life that way. And Nolan is doing, as you noted, an interpretation of this story. His version of Odysseus is more of the everyman. He is more like, you know, he's a little Jason Bourne. He's a little, you know, because it's Matt Damon. Can't help it. He's a little John Wick. He's a little superhero, but he's also Oppenheimer.
Sophie Vershbow (1:17:37)
Yes.
The little John Wick.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:17:48)
He is someone
who is haunted by the choices that he has made. And so at the end of the film, when he returns to Ithaca in disguise, he has a really like wonderful scene with Penelope Anne Hathaway, where he is essentially as he's calling himself Sinon, as this beggar, is telling his wife why he hasn't come home. Why he what he's struggling with with the PTSD.
Sophie Vershbow (1:17:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:18:18)
PTSD, what he has wrought, what he is worried about with society. And it's really well done. And then we get the awesome ending kind of like action sequence, which is, you know, yeah. go ahead.
Sophie Vershbow (1:18:30)
Sorry, Rudi, before we go into the action scenes,
Rudi Greenberg (1:18:37)
Yes, yes.
That was a reveal. Yes. So throughout the throughout the film, there is this sort of like ominent threat of sea people who are who are defying Zeus's law. And in that moment, Odysseus reveals that it's been him. He's one of the sea people defying Zeus's law by sacking cities or as we see earlier in the film, or by literally bringing the the Trojan horse as a gift and then destroying a civilization. Yes.
Sophie Vershbow (1:18:51)
Uh-huh.
It he and his people.
By eating the cattle, by going to the
Cyclops' house and killing him or, you know, damaging him. you know, really just seeing all these examples and that really like in the moment, that reframing and you know, it's called the Odyssey. Odysseus is the hero. That's how we think of this. And this reframing like really knocked my socks off.
Rudi Greenberg (1:19:30)
Yes.
I I agree and I think that's part of the reason why Nolan chose to make him a little more human and less of this trickster, like cunning kind of character. It was to ground him in this shame that he feels for what he has brought on society and the coming dark ages that he very much sees will follow very soon.
Sophie Vershbow (1:19:40)
Human.
Absolutely. And yeah, I I this this feels like a really human retelling. I think it makes sense. Like, you know, as we said, we don't really hear Agamemnon speak, like this like big warrior like guy, everything. It's like we are hearing him and I'm so sorry. What is the guy he's in the boat with who's so so good? Hamish Patel?
Rudi Greenberg (1:20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Ham Ham yes, yes, yes. hold on. Hemish
Patel who plays Euryloclus. Eurylocles, who's a who's wonderful in this. He is like the voice of reason. He's also like, he's always like, why are we doing that?
Sophie Vershbow (1:20:25)
Thank you. You know, that wonder talk about someone I'm happy. So to me, that's
a really human feeling character and foil for Odysseus. And also I will say he is the star, one of the stars of Station 11, an adaptation of the Emily St. John Mandel book. so great job for him and adaptation work.
Rudi Greenberg (1:20:36)
Yes, yes.
Mm, mm.
Sophie Vershbow (1:20:50)
but I it feels really human and I love that that is a story we are getting right now. That is a really cool perspective to take here. And that's why something like this is so fun. You could make, not that I want Nolan to go do this, but in theory, it's like he could make the same movie from the perspective of the gods, and it would be a completely different book. I mean, movie. And I I I love the path he took.
Rudi Greenberg (1:20:55)
Yeah.
And so at the end, we get this test of strength, basically. Penelope says that she will that. So earlier when I do think it's worth highlighting this one scene earlier when Tom Holland comes home, he has a conversation with Penelope. This is Ann Hatha Hathaway's Oscar scene, where he is basically like, you just need to like get married so that I can be king. And
Sophie Vershbow (1:21:21)
Bows? bow stringing.
Rudi Greenberg (1:21:42)
This is the plan that I've hatched with Menelaus. And she is like, I want them to burn. And she, I have been on this throne. Yeah. She gives this incr. I don't think so. I don't think it's that like extreme. But it's an incredible scene. It is so like Anne Hathaway is always so good, but the the way that she, her face, how evocative she is, when she walks away and like basically slams the door.
Sophie Vershbow (1:21:48)
It's like, I have been on the throne, it has not been empty. She doesn't say that in the Odyssey, right?
I think we would have heard about that before. She's so talented.
Rudi Greenberg (1:22:11)
Like at one point in in in another scene, like incredible. She's gonna win an Oscar for that scene, I think. but we will see. Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:22:16)
Yeah.
She is so strong in this. And I'm I'm really
curious when they because I I had also seen Emily Wilson say that you know, the character had been thinned and she wasn't like as happy. I'm like, I'm really curious what she wishes was in there. Cause to me, that character actually felt pretty fleshed out.
Rudi Greenberg (1:22:32)
Yeah. I I
felt I I I felt the same way. And there's nothing that I felt like off the top of my head, I was like, I'm really missing that. Except maybe at the very end, there is one more test in the poem that she gives Odysseus about their bed. It's like immovable and only he would know that. And that's like the final test to be like, you actually are who you say you are. whereas, you know, it's I think it's pretty clear in the scene where he is the beggar that she knows that it's him.
Sophie Vershbow (1:22:46)
Hm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well
Rudi Greenberg (1:23:02)
And so
then she devises this challenge where someone has to string Odysseus' bow and shoot it through these like axes. And
Sophie Vershbow (1:23:12)
I did find his
sh this is like a off comment, but I found every time Matt Damon shot a bow to be unconvincing, he was always doing it like to the side of his body. it confused me.
Rudi Greenberg (1:23:18)
Interesting.
And then we watch as all the suitors, including Robert Pattinson, who we haven't talked about very much, but like we need to talk about Pattinson. He's so good.
Sophie Vershbow (1:23:25)
No. Wait, first of all,
he this is my favorite part of the movie, maybe, which is when he keeps being like, Swords, swords, go. And he keeps being like, spears, spears, go. And he just starts naming weapons, but doing nothing. He's such a little bitch. He's so good. He is hateable in this.
Rudi Greenberg (1:23:33)
I'll wait my turn. Yeah.
Yes. He's a perfect, like sniveling little bastard. Like he's so
good. He has so many good faces that he makes, where he'll just like kind of make a face and it's like perfect. He is he's great. He will probably get nominated for an Oscar. I mean, if for a supporting role, he is so good in this. We get this like battle sequence that, like, I don't know, to me, this was like a little too action movie, but I was like, whatever, we have to have this.
Sophie Vershbow (1:23:50)
Beggar Plate liquor
Time, anytime they tell me that one person can beat 30 people. It's like, I just don't think that's how that works. This is the moment, honestly, in the movie where I did for the first time look at my phone and look to see what time it was. I was literally like, if it is not at the three hour mark right now, I'm gonna be mad. And it was like 257. And I was like, okay, this is the end.
Rudi Greenberg (1:24:07)
It's not as it's not as big in the poem. I know, yeah. Yeah, I know. But it's fine.
It's I mean, you gotta have the big action like climax at the end, so
I mean, in the in the poem,
his dad, Laertes, who's like dying, is like also part of this fight. Cause I think Athena imbues him with some power or something. it's a little bit different. Doesn't, yeah, and it's fine. I I get it. It's the same with like eliminating the Phaeacians, and they also eliminate some characters that Telemachus goes to visit. Like they just try to simplify and and iron things out. and then a big difference at the end is this idea that.
Sophie Vershbow (1:24:39)
And that's an entire character that just isn't in. Yeah.
Sure. You had to.
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (1:24:59)
Odysseus and Penelope ride off into the west to pay tribute to the the the people that they've the fallen soldiers and the other people that he's wronged in exile and Telemachus becomes king. That is not how the poem ends. The poem ends with Odysseus just getting back on the throne. That's there's no reckoning with with what he's done in that way. There's no sailing off into the distance. so again it speaks to how Nolan has
Sophie Vershbow (1:25:04)
All on soldiers.
Huh.
Rudi Greenberg (1:25:27)
adapted this story for our times and given his own interpretation on it. The story just kind of ends. It's kind of like, all right, he's back and we're good. I mean, there's kind of like, I think a little bit of a conversation where like the gods are like, okay, so like we're all gonna be like cool now.
Sophie Vershbow (1:25:33)
Cool. It's just like all good now.
Rudi Greenberg (1:25:44)
there's a great line at the end about how this like story will only be told through a song because that's the only way they'll know it because there's so many people who are illiterate. And and that that is of course something that comes true. All right. So last couple things I want to talk about before we wrap up. I want to talk about a couple of performances maybe we haven't hit on. I want to talk about the editing really quick. So Jennifer Lame, who came on with Tenet, she
Sophie Vershbow (1:25:50)
Mm.
Bad.
Rudi Greenberg (1:26:11)
previously edited some films you've you probably like, Frances Ha and Marriage Story being two of them. another one being hereditary. She has a great editing style, clearly was tasked with a really tough job to think it was like she had six or nine hours of footage to cut down, does a masterful job weaving this story together. Really curious how much of this was on the page, how much of it was her.
Sophie Vershbow (1:26:16)
Very much enjoy.
Mm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:26:39)
Kind of cutting everything together. It's clear that Nolan has found a really great partner in Jennifer Lame, who will again probably win another Oscar, as many people were will. Matt Damon, we talked about him a lot. I mean, I think he's great. I I I was really like questioning whether he would be the right person for this role, but I think the version that Nolan creates, which is the prototypical Nolan protagonist, it's a little Oppenheimer, it's a little Batman, it's, you know, many of these characters he's done in the past, but I think.
Sophie Vershbow (1:26:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:27:09)
Damon does it well.
Sophie Vershbow (1:27:10)
I agree. I was also very skeptical of this just because of he's so recognizable and sometimes sometimes in the I I agree with you though. I think it's for this interpretation, it's really good. I get it now.
Rudi Greenberg (1:27:16)
Yeah. He's got enough gravitas that it works.
Yes.
And we just talked about Ann Hathaway. She's incredible. Give her an Oscar. Tom Holland. At first, I was like, I don't know. But I I think it's supposed to be the character. On second viewing, I was like, I actually like him more. And I think the scene where he r realizes it's his dad is is really special. Let's also talk about that real quick. The modern language. Obviously, everyone speaks American accent because of Matt Damon.
Sophie Vershbow (1:27:31)
Mm.
Don't you think it's supposed to be the character though?
I
didn't care.
Rudi Greenberg (1:27:54)
Totally fine with
it. Don't care. The use of words like dad, fine with me. I think it's a little weird, like in the moment, but it works. And this is kind of a parallel to the Wilson translation because she does use some words that feel more modern. She uses the word totebag. you know, like.
Sophie Vershbow (1:28:06)
Mm-hmm. Right.
that's crazy.
Rudi Greenberg (1:28:19)
I think I I've listened to you party is in the movie, right? That's something Penelope says to the suitors. Stuff is a word that that comes up. I mean, I think it's totally fine. I don't have a problem with with any of that. in terms of the rest of the cast, we didn't talk too much about John Leguizemo as I think it's Eumaeus, the blind sear swineherd who is loyal to Odysseus and and the keeper of Argos. he's great. I mean, he's he's really good.
Sophie Vershbow (1:28:26)
Yeah.
I've never
seen him not be great in anything.
Rudi Greenberg (1:28:46)
Yeah, he's
really good. Zendaya underused, doesn't really make a huge impact.
Sophie Vershbow (1:28:50)
I actually to be honest,
like can't even make a judgment on the performance because I don't think they give her a single thing to do.
Rudi Greenberg (1:28:53)
Yeah.
We talked about Charlize Theron and some Samantha Morton. Polyphemus is actually Bill Irwin, who is a a an actor who you've you've definitely seen in things. the the Cyclops. So that actually is an actor kind of acting as him. let's see. We did briefly talk about Himish Patel, who I think is great. And for part of the movie is almost like the co-lead at times. Like he is.
Sophie Vershbow (1:29:03)
Who was Polythemus?
I didn't know what was that's great.
And yeah, and of course, as people
have said, like barely build with the others, like in the pictures with all the stars. It's like this
Rudi Greenberg (1:29:21)
Yes. But incredibly
important and is really the voice of reason.
Sophie Vershbow (1:29:26)
He is so
good in that character.
Rudi Greenberg (1:29:29)
Corey Hawkins as one of the the suitors who tries to kill Tom Holland early on in the film. He's great. Telemachus. yeah, I mean, this is a great movie. Everyone's really good. It's so well put together. It's great crafts. I mean, everything about it. We will we will talk more about this, I think, throughout the year. I mean, this is we're not done talking about the Odyssey. We obviously have another episode ready to go.
Sophie Vershbow (1:29:37)
Telemachus.
It's a great movie.
Yeah.
No, and we're gonna we're we're gonna record another episode
and really I think like get into the the written history, oral history of all of this.
Rudi Greenberg (1:30:00)
Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:30:03)
Rudi,
Rudi Greenberg (1:30:12)
Or this case the epic poem.
Sophie Vershbow (1:30:13)
Well, did you enjoy the
epic poem or the film better?
Rudi Greenberg (1:30:16)
So I've thought a lot about this. And here's what I will say. I like the movie more. This is not a surprise, obviously. I really did enjoy my experience listening to Claire Danes narrate the poem. And the Wilson translation, it is very approachable. It did not, at first I was like, this is gonna be homework. It felt like homework when it first started, because it does begin with three hours of like.
Sophie Vershbow (1:30:24)
Yep. Shocker.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:30:45)
Her basically annotating her translation. And that was hard to get through because I was like, what is going on? We are just jumping around. I'm learning all this information, really helpful, interesting stuff, but it was not what I was looking for. Then you get into the story and I was like, okay, I'm into this. I I appreciate this. I understand it. As you've pointed out, there were times when I would zone out and I would have to go back and try to remember, okay, what did I just miss? Cause if you miss a line, that can sort of.
Sophie Vershbow (1:30:58)
Yeah.
Sure.
Rudi Greenberg (1:31:13)
You can miss a what's going on. I think that if you enjoyed seeing Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, you should read or listen to the Wilson translation. It is, it will enrich your understanding of the Odyssey. It will enrich really your understanding of the film too, because you will learn in detail how he changed things. We covered some of the changes, and we'll talk more about the changes when we talk with the professors in the next episode, but
Sophie Vershbow (1:31:29)
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:31:41)
There's a lot more and a lot more that I don't even remember that was that was tweaked. But the Cyclops scene, again, thrilling in in the story. I think the way some of it is drawn out more is also really well done in the in the poem. There's just a lot more depth to it. And you get a lot more and you get a completely different Odysseus. And I think if you're interested and you wanna understand the original story.
Sophie Vershbow (1:31:43)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Rudi Greenberg (1:32:09)
Give it a listen or give it a read. I think you will get something out of it. It's really enjoyable and it is breezier than it than it seems. But this is a film that is so good. it's it's so well made. You should see it in the theater, see it on the loudest screen you can, see it multiple times. I think you will get more out of it. I really did the second time that I saw it. I was not sure I wanted to see it a second time so quickly.
Sophie Vershbow (1:32:26)
Yes, please.
Mm-hmm.
Rudi Greenberg (1:32:37)
And I'm so glad that I did. Cause not only did it make me more prepared for this podcast, but it also made me appreciate the film even more. And I'm gonna try to probably see it a third time in actual IMAX seventy millimeter when I'm in New York next month. So this is this is a story and a film I think we're gonna be talking about for a long time. And he did it justice. I I gotta give him credit. He really did.
Sophie Vershbow (1:32:48)
Ha ha
Yeah.
And I will put in an additional plug. If you are curious about some of the side characters in this, especially the women, there's just a plethora of historical fiction books out there, which are probably even more approachable than listening to a translated version of the Odyssey. not just Madeline Miller's books, but several others that I will never be able to remember all the authors of on this.
Rudi Greenberg (1:33:20)
Yes. There's a Margaret Atwood
story about Penelope, right? Yeah.
Sophie Vershbow (1:33:23)
There's a market at Woodwood,
but there are stories about Cersei, Calypso, Penelope, sirens, everyone. And they're just it's such fun lore and history to explore. So add those to your summer reading list. They're they're great.
Rudi Greenberg (1:33:28)
Yes.
And watch Brother Where Art Thou and try to figure out how that story was adapted because it's it's pretty, pretty cool. So the next time you see us, we will be talking more Odyssey with some actual experts who will tell us more about that. Just a quick reminder to rate, like, review, subscribe to It Was a Book First, wherever you get your podcast. You can follow us on Instagram at It WasABook First Pod, on TikTok at It Was a Book First, watch the episode on YouTube at It Was a Book First Podcast.
Sophie Vershbow (1:33:38)
my god.
Yes.
Rudi Greenberg (1:34:05)
Or visit our website, itwasabookfirst.com. Have a question for us or want to reach out about something, email us at itwasabookfirstpod.com. And with that, we will see you next time to talk more about the Odyssey. Thanks, Sophie.
Sophie Vershbow (1:34:19)
Yeah, I say. Thanks, Rudi.

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