# The Career Crisis No One Talks About

An episode of [Behind The Story Show](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1896272055), 15 Jul 2026, 39 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2615825/episodes/19496002-the-career-crisis-no-one-talks-about.mp3

Why do so many smart, capable, successful people still feel disconnected from their work? Sarah Aviram has spent her career answering that question — first as a director of talent development, then as the person who convinced her CEO to let her work from 12 countries in 12 months (before remote work was normal), and now as an author, keynote speaker, and leadership coach. In this conversation, Sarah unpacks the six core drivers of fulfillment at work, why raises and promotions rarely fix burnout, why some high performers quietly check out instead of quitting, and how hybrid and return-to-office policies have created new equity gaps — especially for women. She also shares the personal side of her year abroad: the Buddhist monastery in Thailand, the flamenco dancers in Spain, and the surprising life lesson tying it all together in her new memoir, The Scenic Route. If you've ever felt successful on paper but empty in practice, this episode is for you. Send us Fan Mail Connect with Jelani Youtube Channel Instagram Tik Tok 5thavenuemedia.com

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_00: Managers have been using remote work as this like carrot and the stick approach.
[0:04] SPEAKER_00: Like if you perform well, we'll let you work remotely, but if you're not performing, you have to be in the office.
[0:09] SPEAKER_00: Like and and kind of this attitude of if I don't see you working, I don't know if the work is getting done.
[0:15] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[0:15] SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think that's the right way to be looking at it.
[0:18] SPEAKER_00: I think they need to focus on deliverables, you know, setting clear, actionable goals or KPIs or whatever you want to call them and ensuring that you're measuring people against those deliverables.
[0:28] SPEAKER_02: Sarah, welcome to Behind the Story.
[0:30] SPEAKER_02: Before we get into all of the different aspects of your work, I want to take go back to the posted on your profile and on your website.
[0:39] SPEAKER_02: Going back before COVID, before everybody was actually working remotely and had to be home.
[0:45] SPEAKER_02: You convinced the CEO of your company back then to let you do that.
[0:48] SPEAKER_02: What was that pitch like?
[0:50] SPEAKER_02: And what was the motivation for you behind that request?
[0:53] SPEAKER_00: So it was the end of 2018, and we had a restructuring at the company where I worked.
[0:59] SPEAKER_00: It was a tech company based in New York.
[1:01] SPEAKER_00: I was the director of talent development, so in charge of leadership development programs for employees.
[1:06] SPEAKER_00: And I was doing research on the future of work and what the trends might be for 2019 and what should we should consider when it comes to the talent in our organization.
[1:15] SPEAKER_00: And I kept seeing a lot of research on remote work.
[1:18] SPEAKER_00: So this is pre-pandemic.
[1:20] SPEAKER_00: A lot of the research was saying that many companies were going fully remote or distributed or not having offices, employees located all over the world.
[1:29] SPEAKER_00: And a lot of individuals wanted the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere.
[1:33] SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, if that's the future, is that something our company would consider?
[1:38] SPEAKER_00: Would we offer that perk or benefit or just structure to potential employees and would be open to hiring talent outside of New York, which was our principal office?
[1:48] SPEAKER_00: And so I thought that it was a big question to consider from a talent and growth standpoint for the organization.
[1:55] SPEAKER_00: And as I continued my research, I found out even about these programs that facilitate a professional's ability to work remotely from around the world.
[2:03] SPEAKER_00: So they can focus on the work.
[2:05] SPEAKER_00: And these travel programs that I found help you find an apartment to live in, a co-working space with good Wi-Fi.
[2:13] SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to worry about that.
[2:15] SPEAKER_00: Because as you know, remote work doesn't mean you're just sitting at home.
[2:18] SPEAKER_00: It could mean you're outside the country, you're traveling as long as you're getting the work done.
[2:22] SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, that sounds incredible.
[2:25] SPEAKER_00: And I had a personal interest in travel, in seeing the world.
[2:29] SPEAKER_00: I thought, you know, I focus on global programs.
[2:32] SPEAKER_00: Our company is expanding internationally.
[2:35] SPEAKER_00: So wouldn't it be interesting if I could do like my own field research study and be this guinea pig of remote work, do it from around the world, see how am I able to do my job remotely?
[2:46] SPEAKER_00: What are the challenges?
[2:47] SPEAKER_00: What are the opportunities?
[2:48] SPEAKER_00: What's working?
[2:49] SPEAKER_00: What's not working?
[2:50] SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, research, interview, do focus groups with other remote workers and see how they're managing.
[2:57] SPEAKER_00: So I decide I'm going to pitch this idea to the CEO.
[3:01] SPEAKER_00: And mind you, this was a guy who didn't like people working from home on a Friday, let alone like gallivanting around the world for a year.
[3:08] SPEAKER_00: So I really didn't have my hopes high.
[3:10] SPEAKER_00: But I really started with the business case for remote work.
[3:13] SPEAKER_00: And as I saw that he was agreeing with me and saying I agree, that is the future, that's something we need to consider.
[3:19] SPEAKER_00: Then I brought in the personal interest and aspect of trying it.
[3:23] SPEAKER_00: And I was pretty shocked when he said, okay, do it.
[3:26] SPEAKER_00: I kind of was like, wow, that really worked.
[3:30] SPEAKER_00: And I'll just add two things.
[3:31] SPEAKER_00: I think two things that helped him say the yes.
[3:34] SPEAKER_00: One, I said, if at any point you don't feel like I'm performing at my best, I will come back.
[3:40] SPEAKER_00: So he said, okay.
[3:42] SPEAKER_00: And the other one, I said, this will cost zero dollars for the company outside of my normal reason.
[3:48] SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's a good thing.
[3:50] SPEAKER_02: I love that story because it shows that he had some foresight, right?
[3:53] SPEAKER_02: In in what is the current job market today.
[3:56] SPEAKER_02: From your perspective though, why not just go to one place?
[4:00] SPEAKER_02: I read that you went to 12 different countries, which I assume that you spent a month in each location.
[4:04] SPEAKER_02: Was that sort of the mindset?
[4:06] SPEAKER_02: Why and how did you s decide where to go?
[4:09] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[4:09] SPEAKER_00: Yes.
[4:10] SPEAKER_00: So I found this program called Remote Year.
[4:13] SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it does not exist anymore, but there are other similar programs.
[4:16] SPEAKER_00: And they had this set itinerary and they coordinate a cohort of around 30 professionals from different countries.
[4:23] SPEAKER_00: I would say mostly US-based professionals, but there were certainly people from different countries.
[4:29] SPEAKER_00: And they have these itineraries.
[4:30] SPEAKER_00: And one of the itineraries I saw was a different country every month for 12 months.
[4:34] SPEAKER_00: And I just thought that would be fascinating to go to different places around the world.
[4:38] SPEAKER_00: I was attracted to that option and that's responsibilities.
[4:43] SPEAKER_02: Was there any country where you found it to be extremely challenging to get your work done?
[4:48] SPEAKER_02: And why?
[4:49] SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it depended on the Wi-Fi.
[4:52] SPEAKER_00: So, for example, we were in Cape Town, South Africa for a month and we were there in February, which is summer in Cape Town.
[4:58] SPEAKER_00: And so, in order to reduce the energy demands on the grid, they actually cut power out in different neighborhoods on different days.
[5:07] SPEAKER_00: And they will post the schedule online.
[5:09] SPEAKER_00: But of course, it's always hard to coordinate.
[5:11] SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's the time of day where I had a meeting or something.
[5:15] SPEAKER_00: So that was that was difficult.
[5:17] SPEAKER_00: That was a unique situation.
[5:19] SPEAKER_00: But as long as I had Wi-Fi in general, each place was fine.
[5:22] SPEAKER_00: I would say I got lucky because I agreed with my CEO that I would overlap with New York Eastern hours for four of the eight hours of a workday.
[5:34] SPEAKER_00: So I didn't have to overlap for the entire Eastern time, which was great.
[5:38] SPEAKER_00: Cause even when I was in a place like Japan, I would do anything where I had to coordinate or have a meeting with someone in the United States.
[5:45] SPEAKER_00: I would take those calls from 8 p.m.
[5:48] SPEAKER_00: to midnight.
[5:49] SPEAKER_00: That was a time overlap.
[5:50] SPEAKER_00: That would be the start of their day.
[5:51] SPEAKER_00: But luckily, I didn't have to also work from midnight to 4 a.m.
[5:54] SPEAKER_00: I could use those extra four hours and put them in the morning in the beginning of the day.
[5:59] SPEAKER_00: So I would work, let's say start working at 4 p.m.
[6:02] SPEAKER_00: until 8 would be my solo focus, strategy time, working on decks, things like it was actually great because I had no one pinging me, no emails, and I got a lot done.
[6:12] SPEAKER_00: And then the meetings would be from 8 p.m.
[6:15] SPEAKER_00: to midnight, and I would have the whole morning to explore.
[6:18] SPEAKER_00: So it was great.
[6:19] SPEAKER_00: I could wake up at 9 a.m., explore Kyoto for a few hours and then start work.
[6:24] SPEAKER_02: So it actually worked out really well.
[6:27] SPEAKER_02: Where had the best Wi-Fi that you visited?
[6:31] SPEAKER_02: I've got a theory because I travel quite a bit too and I've lived overseas most of my life.
[6:35] SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a good question.
[6:36] SPEAKER_00: Right.
[6:37] SPEAKER_00: Which I would say Europe, I think.
[6:40] SPEAKER_00: We had some it really depends.
[6:43] SPEAKER_00: Um I'm thinking Croatia and Spain.
[6:46] SPEAKER_00: It sometimes really just depended on the the level of the co-working space and the the type so not necessarily the infrastructure of the city, but how that co-working space made sure we had backup generators or things like that.
[6:58] SPEAKER_02: I've got family living in Eastern Europe and I lived in Eastern Europe for a while.
[7:02] SPEAKER_02: And the best Wi-Fi I've experienced worldwide was in Romania, of all places.
[7:07] SPEAKER_02: And it's it's known.
[7:08] SPEAKER_02: It's known.
[7:09] SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
[7:10] SPEAKER_02: Like I haven't researched the infrastructure or what they've got, but they I even saw a test where they compared it to New York City and the financial district.
[7:18] SPEAKER_02: Their internet's much better than even their.
[7:20] SPEAKER_02: It's it's like the top.
[7:21] SPEAKER_02: And then I saw a trivia thing where one of the hackers, the world number one criminal hackers they were looking for, was based in Romania.
[7:29] SPEAKER_02: So I thought, okay, that explains it.
[7:31] SPEAKER_02: They've got the best internet that they need it for unscrupulous reasons.
[7:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[7:36] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[7:36] SPEAKER_02: Um with working remotely having your schedule that way and getting your job done, obviously.
[7:43] SPEAKER_02: What sort of challenges did you face from the perspective of connecting with your team or collaborating with your with your fellow employees?
[7:51] SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting because when everyone is remote, like if your whole team is remote, everyone's in the same ballgame, right?
[7:57] SPEAKER_00: In this case, though, it wasn't sometimes there would be three, four people in a meeting room and I would be the one zooming in.
[8:05] SPEAKER_00: And that can be challenging because, um, and I'm I'm sure you've been on either side of that.
[8:09] SPEAKER_00: So you know that when the Zoom call ends or people press hang up, whoever's together in the room, they sort of continue the conversation.
[8:16] SPEAKER_00: So who's gonna do that?
[8:17] SPEAKER_00: And what's and then you speak on the way out of the conference room.
[8:20] SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you kind of miss those additional conversations or clarity that comes when a meeting actually ends.
[8:27] SPEAKER_00: So that was that was a bit challenging.
[8:30] SPEAKER_00: It was sometimes like I didn't know what I didn't know, to be honest.
[8:33] SPEAKER_00: I would say though, you know, I was working for a company that had very advanced technology tools and we use Zoom regularly.
[8:40] SPEAKER_00: This was pre-pandemic when Zoom kind of took off.
[8:42] SPEAKER_00: So we were already using it.
[8:44] SPEAKER_00: So everyone was quite familiar with video calls and how to use, you know, the ways to engage people that worked to different places.
[8:52] SPEAKER_00: Because even within the States, we would have people in different offices.
[8:55] SPEAKER_00: So even though they were in different countries, people were used to using those kinds of tools.
[9:00] SPEAKER_00: So I think that was helpful.
[9:02] SPEAKER_00: But I do think when everyone is in a level playing field, it makes it much easier when everyone's remote.
[9:06] SPEAKER_00: Because when the call ends, it ends for everyone.
[9:09] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[9:10] SPEAKER_00: Um, but and what when one person's in a different situation, it can be challenging.
[9:13] SPEAKER_00: So it's important to ensure, you know, you're tapped into what's going on, any side conversations that were had.
[9:19] SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's one person you can contact to say, Did anything else I need to know?
[9:23] SPEAKER_00: or just or conversations that were had, you know, when I wasn't there.
[9:26] SPEAKER_00: Can you fill me in?
[9:27] SPEAKER_00: So if you can have that.
[9:29] SPEAKER_02: I work remotely, obviously, and I've worked hybrid.
[9:31] SPEAKER_02: And I I've got to tell you, I I enjoyed when I was working remotely, the times when we would meet up, where we would actually go into the office, because it it was just nice to be with my colleagues and to meet up and have conversations with them in person.
[9:46] SPEAKER_02: I did enjoy that and it did feel different than when we were all on Zoom.
[9:51] SPEAKER_02: I will say that.
[9:52] SPEAKER_02: But like you, I found that I got more done when I was not in the office, because it wasn't somebody constantly coming by my cubicle or my desk and saying, hey, this or hey that, because you're literally stopping, because you're not, you know, focusing this listening, you're stopping, you're having a chat, you're having these conversations.
[10:10] SPEAKER_02: And I realized I actually like when I could be away from the office to do what I need to do, but I want to be there to connect and collaborate with my colleagues.
[10:21] SPEAKER_02: So my my question to you is having been on both sides, having convinced the CEO of doing this now in your work, you're advising companies and talking to individuals.
[10:31] SPEAKER_02: If they come to you where they were remote, but now they've got an RTO, a return to office policy, and they're facing all the objections, you know, people are setting their ways now, they've structured their lives around that new schedule.
[10:44] SPEAKER_02: How do you address that challenge with with somebody that you would be advising or consulting with?
[10:49] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[10:50] SPEAKER_02: Management is what I mean.
[10:51] SPEAKER_00: With the management team or with the person resisting it.
[10:54] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[10:55] SPEAKER_00: So I think historically, and by historically, I really mean the last six years since kind of remote work became more of the norm.
[11:04] SPEAKER_00: Managers have been using remote work as this like carrot and the stick approach.
[11:08] SPEAKER_00: Like if you perform well, we'll let you work remotely.
[11:11] SPEAKER_00: But if you're not performing, you have to be in the office.
[11:13] SPEAKER_00: Like, and and kind of this attitude of if I don't see you working, I don't know if the work is getting done.
[11:19] SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's the right way to be looking at it.
[11:22] SPEAKER_00: I think they need to focus on deliverables, you know, setting clear, actionable goals or KPIs or whatever you want to call them and ensuring that you're measuring people against those deliverables.
[11:32] SPEAKER_00: And I think we forgot about that.
[11:35] SPEAKER_00: That was our only option during COVID when everyone was home.
[11:38] SPEAKER_00: Like that's the only way we could measure it.
[11:40] SPEAKER_00: And then when it became an option to open the offices back again, we kind of forgot.
[11:46] SPEAKER_00: So I've always said I thought that hybrid work models are the best of both worlds because of what you said, because people get that time from home, the quiet time, the focus time, the flexibility for their personal lives.
[11:58] SPEAKER_00: But then they also get the in-office time to build the relationships and network with people.
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: However, when hybrid work options started, companies were often giving people a choice of how often you want to come in or when you want to come in and when you want to stay home.
[12:12] SPEAKER_00: Now that sounds great, and it gives the employee that option.
[12:16] SPEAKER_00: They feel like they have agency over it.
[12:18] SPEAKER_00: However, what was happening is that the people that were choosing to spend more days working from home were often dinged in a way.
[12:25] SPEAKER_00: Like they were seen as less committed or less in in-person FaceTime with their boss.
[12:30] SPEAKER_00: So they weren't thought of as much for opportunities and they were not given, you know, the chance to work on a specific project because they were not in the line of sight of someone.
[12:38] SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes those people that just chose to work more days from home because they were given the option were often women because they often have more child care responsibilities, more elder care responsibilities.
[12:50] SPEAKER_00: And so we started to see some of the shifts in the workforce, gender-based shifts that we hadn't seen in decades, where women were getting less opportunity and less advancement because they were taking the option to work more from home and they were getting penalized for it.
[13:05] SPEAKER_00: And so I think we have to be careful when we talk about the hybrid work options and ensure that a manager knows how to manage that in an equitable way so that no one is forgotten about everyone's getting away.
[13:18] SPEAKER_02: I'm biased, obviously, but I'm part of what I consider to be uh a sensible hybrid work environment where the company allows the leadership in different groups to set what that hybrid schedule should be based on a principle of collaboration, not on a principle of you just swiped your card twice this week and that's shows me that you were hybrid.
[13:37] SPEAKER_02: No, it was is is Sarah and Gelani and their team coming together and working together.
[13:43] SPEAKER_02: So how many days this week, if it's two, the entire team is in on those two days.
[13:49] SPEAKER_02: That's the agreement.
[13:50] SPEAKER_02: If it's three, that's the agreement.
[13:52] SPEAKER_02: If it's one, that's the agreement.
[13:54] SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like the rhythm and cadence of the team so that when every when when we're on site, everybody is on site because it the principle is to foster collaboration, not okay, I I I clocked in two days this week, I reckon I'm good.
[14:07] SPEAKER_02: No, it's not that, it's about the collaboration.
[14:09] SPEAKER_02: And I think that principle, that that approach is a workable one, and probably not the only one, obviously.
[14:14] SPEAKER_02: Not gonna claim that, I'm biased, but I but I but I think it's a workable one.
[14:18] SPEAKER_02: Let's switch to topics for a bit, sir, and talk about your work specifically.
[14:22] SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I know in this environment for some people work does seem a bit bit uh chaotic sometimes and people are struggling to s uh uh figure out which way is up.
[14:32] SPEAKER_02: What do you feel is the real reason in your experience where high performers seem really successful on paper, but they really do not feel that success?
[14:42] SPEAKER_00: I think some of the old standards of success are still in place for people and and their identity, kind of getting to a certain level and earning a certain amount of money and, you know, feeling like they're being seen by the world in a certain way, or maybe they're attached to kind of old definitions of success that they had young, you know, earlier in their career or by their families or whatever it might be.
[15:04] SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting because if you give someone the option, like we'll pay you 30% more to leave your company and come work for us, or someone gets an offer from another organization.
[15:14] SPEAKER_00: Me, having worked in HR, those employees would come to me and say, look, I got 30% more to leave.
[15:20] SPEAKER_00: And if we would ever counteroffer and say, we will match it so you can stay, maybe they would stay for six months, but in the end, they would end up leaving or they still wouldn't be happy because if they were paired, paid a fair market value, it's often not about the money.
[15:36] SPEAKER_00: They don't feel again, this is if they're being paid fairly, but oftentimes it wasn't really about the money, is that they weren't feeling valued in the organization.
[15:45] SPEAKER_00: They weren't feeling challenged, they didn't feel like they were making an impact.
[15:49] SPEAKER_00: They weren't growing and developing their skills, they didn't enjoy the work itself.
[15:53] SPEAKER_00: And so we see a lot of those situations where it's it's really not about the money.
[15:58] SPEAKER_00: And there's a McKinsey study that came out about why people leave organizations.
[16:02] SPEAKER_00: It came out a couple of years ago.
[16:04] SPEAKER_00: And compensation's always number one.
[16:06] SPEAKER_00: Again, compensation doesn't always lead to fulfillment, but wouldn't you like to get paid more for something you don't enjoy doing anyway?
[16:13] SPEAKER_00: What if you enjoyed doing it?
[16:15] SPEAKER_00: No, would money be your incentive?
[16:17] SPEAKER_00: And maybe, and there's no judgment because everyone has their priorities in their life.
[16:21] SPEAKER_00: And maybe maybe you're you're building a new home or you're getting married or having a baby and earning a certain income is your priority, and that's okay.
[16:29] SPEAKER_00: I think it's about being intentional and clear about what is driving me right now.
[16:34] SPEAKER_00: What is my priority?
[16:35] SPEAKER_00: Is it money?
[16:36] SPEAKER_00: Is it identity?
[16:37] SPEAKER_00: Is it growth?
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: Is it impact?
[16:38] SPEAKER_00: Is it joy?
[16:39] SPEAKER_00: And really, or stability and really understanding what that is for you and allowing it to change as your life circumstances change, as your priorities change.
[16:49] SPEAKER_00: And I think people find themselves stuck in a rut sometimes because they've been chasing title or they've been chasing money versus the more intrinsic motivators.
[16:58] SPEAKER_00: Like, do I get energy from what I do?
[17:00] SPEAKER_00: Like you could have had the busiest day working crazy hours, and you might still close your laptop at the end of the day and say, wow, that was an exciting day.
[17:08] SPEAKER_00: Like I got to do this, I got to create that, it was innovative, it was exciting, I collaborate with this person, or you could have a crazy busy day and say, be totally depleted and totally drained and burned out.
[17:18] SPEAKER_00: And that has to do with how much joy and energy and impact do you feel like you're getting from the work.
[17:23] SPEAKER_00: And so we have to consider those things.
[17:30] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[17:30] SPEAKER_00: I talk about, yeah, how there are six core drivers of our fulfillment.
[17:35] SPEAKER_00: And this was from all the research and focus groups and case studies I did while traveling the world, 12 countries in 12 months.
[17:42] SPEAKER_00: So that was actually my first book.
[17:44] SPEAKER_00: And I'll share more about the second book that's more the personal side, but the professional side was really getting into that research and finding out that there's six core drivers of our fulfillment, our relationship to our money, identity, routines, growth, impact, and joy.
[17:59] SPEAKER_00: And so I really help people understand how to activate and manage each of those levers to really feel fulfilled at work and perform at your best.
[18:07] SPEAKER_00: And that there's really two types of performance.
[18:09] SPEAKER_00: There's the tactical performance, which is like just getting the work done, following the best practice, following the plan, the process as it's been laid out.
[18:18] SPEAKER_00: But as we saw during COVID and as we see in the world right now, like there's a lot of things we can't predict, changes that happen all the time that we don't have a map to follow.
[18:28] SPEAKER_00: And so in those situations, aptive performance is necessary.
[18:31] SPEAKER_00: And that is your ability to diverge from a plan, to create and innovate on the spot and come up with new solutions.
[18:37] SPEAKER_00: And that takes more of the internal drivers, the curiosity, the energy, the creativity, and not just the paycheck.
[18:44] SPEAKER_00: And so I do think it's important to have both best practices exist for reasons.
[18:49] SPEAKER_00: Being driven by plans and processes is good.
[18:52] SPEAKER_00: And also the creativity and energy and curiosity is also important to drive more of the innovation I think we need to adapt during times of change.
[19:00] SPEAKER_02: What do you mean when you talk about remotivation in your work?
[19:03] SPEAKER_02: What is that concept?
[19:05] SPEAKER_00: I say that because sometimes we think that we need to overhaul our lives, like I did.
[19:12] SPEAKER_00: I thought if I could just work from the beach in Bali, I'm gonna be happy and fulfilled, and nothing about the work has to change.
[19:19] SPEAKER_00: Or for some people, it's I have to change jobs or I have to change managers.
[19:23] SPEAKER_00: And I think it's not overhauling your life all the time.
[19:27] SPEAKER_00: Look, sometimes you need a big change, you know, you need a start over, a do over.
[19:31] SPEAKER_00: But sometimes it's these small tweaks, these conversations, these difficult conversations you've been avoiding having with your manager or your team or your boss, whatever it might be, these conversations that can make a huge difference that can remotivate you where you are.
[19:45] SPEAKER_00: And so I tell people before you think the grass is greener on the other side, have you thought about what really matters to you and what's important?
[19:53] SPEAKER_00: And have you shared what you want more of or less of with your team and with your manager?
[19:58] SPEAKER_00: Can you continue to grow and develop in a company that knows you, where they might be willing to take a risk on you, where you've developed relationships in a network and they might let you try something you haven't done before versus in a place where they don't know you and you're more of an unknown.
[20:12] SPEAKER_00: So that's why I say, like, let's focus first on remotivating yourself.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: But no one can help you get somewhere if they don't know where you want to go and if you don't know where you want to go.
[20:21] SPEAKER_00: So first it's figuring it out, figuring out what you want and then letting everyone know so they can help you.
[20:26] SPEAKER_00: And then if if your team or manager says, I appreciate you sharing what you want, unfortunately, those opportunities don't and won't exist in this organization.
[20:35] SPEAKER_00: Okay, then it's time to think about making it.
[20:38] SPEAKER_02: Is that why as far as the remotivation part of it, is that why some people like they don't quit, but they emotionally check out, but they stay in the same job?
[20:48] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, I get it.
[20:49] SPEAKER_00: Again, it's about priority.
[20:50] SPEAKER_00: Some people say, you know, the discomfort of the known is better than the discomfort of the unknown.
[20:57] SPEAKER_00: They'd rather stay in a place where even though they don't love it, they know what to expect.
[21:02] SPEAKER_00: They have stability, relative stability, you know, they go through the motions of their routine and it feels comfortable.
[21:08] SPEAKER_00: And again, there's no judgment because maybe their the rest of their personal life is an upheaval and they need something that's consistent and it's not the time to switch jobs or not the job market to do it in.
[21:19] SPEAKER_00: So I understand that.
[21:20] SPEAKER_00: But I think spending your whole life in that kind of situation where you don't feel stimulated or energized.
[21:26] SPEAKER_00: And look, some people don't want that from their job or they don't expect joy from their job.
[21:32] SPEAKER_00: And I always say, okay, but given how much time you spend working, isn't it worth a shot to make it as fulfilling as possible?
[21:40] SPEAKER_00: And all those six motivators I mentioned, you might not get them all from one job.
[21:44] SPEAKER_00: You might get the paycheck and the title, and maybe you'll get the stability from the job, but maybe you you make impact through your children or through the charity that you volunteer with.
[21:55] SPEAKER_00: So you can you can get everything you need from different places, but I do think.
[22:00] SPEAKER_00: All six of them are important to have, to feel the most important.
[22:02] SPEAKER_02: If you're working with somebody, how do you determine whether it's burnout or they're not in alignment with what is important to them with the job?
[22:11] SPEAKER_02: What sort of questions are you asking that person to determine really what it is?
[22:15] SPEAKER_02: Is it really burnout and stress or are you just in the wrong situation?
[22:19] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:20] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[22:20] SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the kind of work I do like one-on-one coaching because it is important to figure that out.
[22:25] SPEAKER_00: And so we start with these six drivers of motivation and really talk through them historically, like what has driven them in their career, when have those changed for them?
[22:34] SPEAKER_00: What made them change?
[22:36] SPEAKER_00: And we I get them back to like, can you think of a time where you ended the day and you said to your partner, to a friend, to a sibling, whatever, like, today was amazing.
[22:45] SPEAKER_00: Like, I loved work today.
[22:47] SPEAKER_00: And like, what was going on?
[22:48] SPEAKER_00: And what were you working on?
[22:50] SPEAKER_00: And what skills were you using?
[22:51] SPEAKER_00: And what was your environment like?
[22:53] SPEAKER_00: And who was cheering you on?
[22:55] SPEAKER_00: And so we try to get them back to like, why did they choose this career path to begin with?
[23:00] SPEAKER_00: How can we get them back to that energizing point?
[23:02] SPEAKER_00: And what has changed since then?
[23:04] SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of start there with understanding about what really gets them lit up and excited about work.
[23:10] SPEAKER_00: And so that's a really important place to start.
[23:12] SPEAKER_00: And so we kind of dig into those types of questions and figure out, okay, what are your priorities now moving forward?
[23:19] SPEAKER_00: Is it growth?
[23:20] SPEAKER_00: Is it impact?
[23:21] SPEAKER_00: And how can we pull those levers at your current company?
[23:24] SPEAKER_00: Or is it time for you?
[23:25] SPEAKER_02: You have a background in HR, obviously.
[23:27] SPEAKER_02: And in the last, like, let's say six years, to because we want to include what everybody went through with the pandemic.
[23:35] SPEAKER_02: What are some of the differences you've seen with the career ladder from back then to now post the pandemic and even generationally, that where maybe some of the senior executives, yeah, because they're out of touch, they're not really in touch with the rank and file, they're not really paying attention to it.
[23:52] SPEAKER_02: What what are some of those changes you've seen?
[23:54] SPEAKER_02: Not going to be beneficial for someone to know that and be aware of it.
[23:57] SPEAKER_00: One thing I've seen change is, you know, it used to be the measure of success was becoming a manager and leading people.
[24:03] SPEAKER_00: And that's that's the only way you got promoted was the the sort of recognition of you doing a job well done is now you get to manage other people and doing a similar job.
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, for some people, that's not what they want.
[24:15] SPEAKER_00: They don't want to manage other people, and maybe they're not very good at it.
[24:18] SPEAKER_00: They don't have the skills, they don't have the interest.
[24:21] SPEAKER_00: And so what we see now is more of this individual contributor career paths where someone can advance and grow without needing to become a people manager.
[24:33] SPEAKER_00: So individual career path can look like you're a software engineer, and then you kind of go up to become what they call like an architect, where you are the subject matter expert in your organization, but you are not necessarily leading people.
[24:48] SPEAKER_00: So I'm seeing more of these subject matter expert career paths where people become quite senior.
[24:53] SPEAKER_00: You can make more money, you can earn title that don't require you to lead people.
[24:58] SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is a difference from a few couple generations ago, or maybe just even 10 years ago.
[25:03] SPEAKER_02: Some of the people that I've come into contact with, they're introverts.
[25:07] SPEAKER_02: They don't necessarily want to be leaders, but say they want to be a leader in their field.
[25:11] SPEAKER_02: I completely get that.
[25:13] SPEAKER_02: Tell me about this, the latest book.
[25:15] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my first book, Remotivation, which I published in 2020, was all about what I learned about remote work from traveling in 12 countries in 12 months.
[25:24] SPEAKER_00: The last six years been talking about that work and how to engage and motivate your remote and hybrid teams.
[25:30] SPEAKER_00: And I realized while doing these talks that it was it was more than remote work.
[25:35] SPEAKER_00: I was using remote work as the context to talk about performance and fulfillment, but it morphed into talking about a world that's ever changing.
[25:43] SPEAKER_00: And remote work was one context, and now it's hybrid, and it doesn't even matter what it is, but the issue is things are constantly changing all the time, and people feel uncertain.
[25:52] SPEAKER_00: They feel um like incapable of making decisions when they don't know what is going to be next or what the path is gonna be like forwards.
[26:01] SPEAKER_00: And so academically and professionally, I have a lot of experience in uh change management, the field of change management, helping companies, whether it's a merge or an acquisition, a software add-on, or something where you're helping the team manage through changes.
[26:15] SPEAKER_00: And I thought this is it's morphed into just like me wanting to talk more about managing through change.
[26:20] SPEAKER_00: And as I start to think about how can I bring case studies to life so people understand how successful teams have worked through times of change, I started to think that, okay, I'm gonna bring in a case study.
[26:32] SPEAKER_00: So if I'm speaking to a financial institution, I'm gonna give an example of another financial institution that's successfully managed through change.
[26:39] SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, you know, they've they've heard this stuff.
[26:41] SPEAKER_00: Like, or even if I'm 90% accurate to their team and what they're going through, the 10% that's like a little different.
[26:48] SPEAKER_00: They'll say, like, well, with our team, with our budget, you know, and our company, it's a little different.
[26:53] SPEAKER_00: And I said, what are other examples of change that I can talk about?
[26:56] SPEAKER_00: And then I thought about travel.
[26:57] SPEAKER_00: And I said, travel is actually a concentrated experience of change.
[27:03] SPEAKER_00: It is all your routines are different, the kind of people, the language, the environment, the food you're eating.
[27:09] SPEAKER_00: I mean, you immerse yourself into a different world and you learn a lot about your ability to adapt and manage uncertainty.
[27:16] SPEAKER_00: And when your flight gets canceled or the bus doesn't come to improvise and to move through things and adapt on the spot.
[27:23] SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I actually think I could use my stories of travel.
[27:26] SPEAKER_00: I always thought they were like personal, not professional enough, you know, like how could I bring these stories?
[27:31] SPEAKER_00: But I started to dabble and I started in my keynote talks at companies, sort of to introduce them.
[27:36] SPEAKER_00: And it's like I had such a captivated audience because they were stories they hadn't heard before and they loved being taken out of their day-to-day.
[27:44] SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, great, something new, something I haven't heard.
[27:47] SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, you know, I think I have a second book in me that's not the professional side of working remotely in all these countries, but the personal side of what I learned about myself and adaptability through living across all these different cultures and countries.
[28:01] SPEAKER_00: So I gathered my journals, my blogs, my photos from that year.
[28:06] SPEAKER_00: And I wrote a very personal travel memoir that's called The Scenic Route.
[28:10] SPEAKER_00: And it's a compilation of stories or essays, one from each of the 12 countries.
[28:16] SPEAKER_00: And it reads like a travel journal, but each story has a deep self-reflection about the themes of identity and belonging and vulnerability and trust, but told through the lens of travel.
[28:29] SPEAKER_00: And it's been a really interesting project to work on because through the writing itself, I've solidified more of what I learned and what I took out of that experience.
[28:39] SPEAKER_00: And I think other people can say, you know, I've never been there and I've never done that, but I've felt that before.
[28:44] SPEAKER_00: And I think it will, and through the speaking I've done already, it does resonate with people.
[28:49] SPEAKER_00: And then they're able to accept the lesson more, the kind of application of what I'm trying to say and how they might apply what they learned into their careers, into their lives.
[29:01] SPEAKER_00: And so they've been powerful stories through which to bring change management to life and in a more fun way as well.
[29:08] SPEAKER_02: So reflecting on those stories, whenever I tend to think that whenever we have stories, they'll mean one thing to us and mean something else to someone else that hears the story.
[29:18] SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious, what's one of the particular experiences or stories that you went through that it was such a profound lesson for you that it means so much to you personally?
[29:28] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[29:29] SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's interesting.
[29:30] SPEAKER_00: Point you said that I think within a story, someone could have a different interpretation.
[29:35] SPEAKER_00: Or within my set of 12 stories, one story might really resonate with someone and one maybe less, depending on their own life experiences.
[29:43] SPEAKER_00: But one that I really enjoyed writing and learned a lot through the writing of the story.
[29:49] SPEAKER_00: Because when I started, I said, you know, I have these, it was it was about something in Thailand when I was in Thailand for a month, and I had these two very different experiences, both of super interesting.
[29:59] SPEAKER_00: And I said, I want to write about both, but it's too much to include both, and they're not related at all.
[30:04] SPEAKER_00: So I have to choose one.
[30:05] SPEAKER_00: But I said, let me just write both and see which one is better, which one's more interesting, which one has a better lesson, and then I'll choose one.
[30:12] SPEAKER_00: So the first one was me learning how to meditate from a Buddhist monk in a monastery in in Chiang Mai, Thailand.
[30:20] SPEAKER_00: And how I learned about in Buddhism, they they believe that freedom and liberation is found through releasing your ego, through releasing identity, titles.
[30:30] SPEAKER_00: And once you can do that, you'll feel liberated and you'll feel free.
[30:33] SPEAKER_00: And I loved that.
[30:35] SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, I went to basically a drag show of what they call themselves, Lady Boys Transgender Drag Show.
[30:43] SPEAKER_00: And it was so fun and like incredibly just such a good time.
[30:48] SPEAKER_00: And we were able to interview some of these performers in advance of this performance.
[30:53] SPEAKER_00: And they told us so much about their challenges and their struggles with their own identity and being who they are, who they want to be.
[31:00] SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, they find freedom and liberation in expressing it and showing it to the world and saying, this is who I am, I am here, and taking on different titles and taking on the personality.
[31:13] SPEAKER_00: And I thought, oh my gosh, this is like the opposite lesson.
[31:17] SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, are these two conflicting ideas?
[31:20] SPEAKER_00: And I said, no, they're there are two ways to get to this, there are two different ways to get to the same point, which is feeling free and liberated and and good with yourself and who you are.
[31:32] SPEAKER_00: And so I end this, so I decided to combine them into one chapter.
[31:36] SPEAKER_00: And I said, in the end, you know, thought about myself and like holding on to the title of wanting to be vice president of this or seen as that.
[31:43] SPEAKER_00: And which parts of myself was I wanting to let go of and which parts of myself do I want to embrace?
[31:50] SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have the answers yet, but I felt like maybe the point is like we don't need to have the answers that at any given time we're allowed to decide what parts of our identity we want to release and which parts we want to embrace and express.
[32:03] SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, like, what a beautiful thought to be left with, that it's up to us and that no one can tell us which way is better than the other.
[32:11] SPEAKER_02: Of all the speeches you've given and and presenting the different aspects of the book and the different stories, has there been a time where someone came up to you after the speech and was talking to you about something that resonated in the speech that you would didn't even fathom, that you didn't even think about about that particular angle?
[32:29] SPEAKER_02: Were you ever surprised that in that way?
[32:31] SPEAKER_00: I have, and it's so it's so beautiful because sometimes, you know, you hope it will resonate a certain way, and it resonates in a in a different way than than you had thought.
[32:40] SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think of this one story I tell about seeing a flamenco show, dance show in s in Spain, and how it really made me think of wow, these dancers on stage, especially the women, they are older than the typical dancers you see in other forms of dance, like ballet, where it's all about your youth and your flexibility and people, you know, the dancers peak in their 20s.
[33:02] SPEAKER_00: In flamenco thing, they peak in midlife.
[33:04] SPEAKER_00: They the women continue to perform in their 40s and 50s and 60s.
[33:08] SPEAKER_00: And it made me think of, well, you know, you can really peak at any age in your life or at different stages.
[33:14] SPEAKER_00: And and flamenco, and this is after I researched, they believe that it's not until you're actually older and have more life experience are you able to truly convey the essence of the dance, which it is a lot about your emotional maturity and your passion and life's hardships and your ability to convey all of that through your expressions, through your movements, through the dance, and how they revere the older dancers for having that capability because they've had more life experience.
[33:42] SPEAKER_00: And so someone came up to me, and so I guess this is more like they similarly had that experience, but they said, Wow, you know, sometimes I think I'm too old to learn something new or to double down on what I already know, or the younger people the younger generations coming in and making me feel like my experience is not worth it because they know something new.
[34:00] SPEAKER_00: And you really reminded me about how valuable my experience is and how knowledgeable I am, and how I have so much to still give and to teach.
[34:09] SPEAKER_00: And it was just like such a beautiful thing to hear.
[34:12] SPEAKER_00: And um, I just yeah, that was that was really nice.
[34:15] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can imagine it goes back to my whole thinking on it people perceive your story in a completely different way than you do, because we've got diff we live different lives, obviously, right?
[34:26] SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to be hearing it through my conditioning or my experience or what what I know about it, and then you know, projecting that onto it, whether I'm trying to or not.
[34:37] SPEAKER_02: We we naturally do it.
[34:39] SPEAKER_02: So I'm always curious to where somebody hears a story and what and what their response is, because sometimes I think if we're open to it, we will actually learn from the person's response to to our story, you know, because we see it in in in a different way.
[34:55] SPEAKER_02: Sarah, before I let you go, I want to talk about how this is a little bit about how you actually help people one-on-one.
[35:00] SPEAKER_02: So obviously you're a keynote speaker, author, you worked in HR.
[35:04] SPEAKER_02: What how is your work defined today one-on-one?
[35:07] SPEAKER_02: How do you coach and help people?
[35:09] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so as you mentioned, um keynote speaking author, but I also do leadership coaching.
[35:14] SPEAKER_00: So primarily companies hire me to coach their leadership team.
[35:18] SPEAKER_00: But in additionally, people can contact me directly and I can work with them.
[35:22] SPEAKER_00: So it's a little different if the companies hired me because oftentimes they want to be involved in the process somehow.
[35:28] SPEAKER_00: We also I focus on behavior change leadership.
[35:32] SPEAKER_00: So it's not when someone is on their way out and this is like the last straw.
[35:37] SPEAKER_00: It's more we see a lot of potential in this leader and we want to invest in their development.
[35:43] SPEAKER_00: And so people don't come to me thinking like, what's wrong with me?
[35:46] SPEAKER_00: Why does my company want to coach?
[35:47] SPEAKER_00: It's more of the mindset of like, you are you are incredibly successful.
[35:52] SPEAKER_00: How can we make you even more impactful as a leader to take you to the next level?
[35:56] SPEAKER_00: And so I do something called stakeholder-centered coaching, which is we involve stakeholders, the people that that person works with on a day-to-day basis, their direct reports, their manager, their peers, because I'm not in every meeting with them.
[36:08] SPEAKER_00: I don't know how they're showing up.
[36:10] SPEAKER_00: I know what they're telling me.
[36:11] SPEAKER_00: So it's really important to involve the people around them.
[36:13] SPEAKER_00: And I interview all of them when we start the process, get a sense of, you know, what's one thing if they could do differently, that they would be even more impactful.
[36:22] SPEAKER_00: So we get that input.
[36:22] SPEAKER_00: And with the leader, we decide in the next nine, 12 months, what's the one behavior that we're gonna work on?
[36:28] SPEAKER_00: And we ensure that people know that they're working on perception is often reality.
[36:33] SPEAKER_00: We enroll those stakeholders in in in not like saying you didn't do that or like it kind of like gotcha moments.
[36:40] SPEAKER_00: It's the opposite.
[36:40] SPEAKER_00: It's more like how do we create this sounding board of cheerleaders, of people that want to see you win and they're gonna help you win.
[36:48] SPEAKER_00: And so that's a lot of the work that I do with uh leaders and companies.
[36:53] SPEAKER_00: And then on an individual standpoint, we tend to focus more on those individual six drivers of motivation.
[36:59] SPEAKER_00: Not that I don't do that with the leader, but it's slightly different.
[37:01] SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of the individuals that come to me, they, you know, they're kind of maybe at a career crossroads or maybe unhappy at other jobs.
[37:08] SPEAKER_00: They want to feel reinvigorated, remotivated.
[37:10] SPEAKER_00: And so we talk about those six core drivers of fulfillment and which of those we really want to focus on and um how to find more opportunities to activate that motivator.
[37:20] SPEAKER_02: Very cool.
[37:21] SPEAKER_02: Before I let you go, the names of the books again, Sarah, if you don't mind.
[37:24] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[37:25] SPEAKER_00: The first one is Remotivation, the Remote Worker's Ultimate Guide to Life-Ching Fulfillment.
[37:30] SPEAKER_00: That's the professional side about fulfillment and performance as a remote worker.
[37:35] SPEAKER_00: And then the personal stories, the travel memoir is called The Scenic Route, Following My Inner Compass Across 12 Countries in 12 months.
[37:42] SPEAKER_00: And that's the personal side of the same adventure.
[37:45] SPEAKER_00: Great.
[37:45] SPEAKER_00: And um for that second book, um, the scenic route book dot that's with all the information and the pre-order period has started.
[37:52] SPEAKER_00: So if people pre-order, they actually get a bunch of free bonuses right away.
[37:56] SPEAKER_00: They get the first few chapters uh for free right away.
[37:59] SPEAKER_00: They get a recording of me and my book editor talking about kind of behind the scenes of how we put the book together, the stories that maybe didn't make it.
[38:07] SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of fun too.
[38:08] SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
[38:09] SPEAKER_02: Any speeches coming up?
[38:10] SPEAKER_00: Yes, I am going to Iowa tomorrow for um a keynote talk at a conference.
[38:16] SPEAKER_00: And then the week after that, I'm going to Charleston.
[38:19] SPEAKER_00: No, excuse me, Charlotte, North Carolina, for another one.
[38:22] SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's got a few things coming up.
[38:24] SPEAKER_02: Well, best of luck to you with the speeches and best of luck with the book.
[38:27] SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for coming on behind the story.
[38:30] SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Delani.
[38:30] SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed our chat.
[38:31] SPEAKER_02: Same here.
[38:32] SPEAKER_02: Cheers.
[38:48] SPEAKER_01: Behind the story.
[38:53] SPEAKER_01: Behind the story.
[38:58] unknown: Behind the story.

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