# Climate Therapist Leslie Davenport: You're fine, the world is broken

An episode of [Not a Climate Scientist](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1893397479), 14 Apr 2026, 36 min.

Audio: https://api.riverside.com/hosting-analytics/media/e00124ece3d4524a4de0413f9dd12fb76d60e9fed0f4e7dc1873dd709058f33f/eyJlcGlzb2RlSWQiOiJlMzkwZjBhYi04ZjQ2LTQ2YTMtODE0OC1lZjZkMmM1NDczOTIiLCJwb2RjYXN0SWQiOiI1MjZkMzc5MS0xYzVmLTQ1ODQtOTFlZi0yZTk0Mzg4ZGZkNTMiLCJhY2NvdW50SWQiOiI2OTE0ZDYxOGQzMTgxZTA5YWMwYjM3NTAiLCJwYXRoIjoibWVkaWEvY2xpcHMvNjlkZTczZjVmMTYyYjRkMDEyNjM0Y2Y1L2hlYXRoZXItZ29sZHN0b25lcy1zdHVkaW8tY29tcG9zZXItMjAyNi00LTE0X18xOS01LTU2Lm1wMyJ9.mp3

If you've felt anxiety or grief about climate change, you're far from alone. The fix is working on the world, as well as ourselves.

## Transcript

Heather Goldstone: Hi everybody, I'm Heather Goldstone and this is not a climate scientist. The podcast from Woodwell Climate Research Center where we talk with everyday Americans about the very real ways climate change is showing up in our lives and livelihoods. We hear what they're doing about it and how we can all get in on the action. I am so excited to bring you this next conversation with climate therapist Leslie Davenport. 20 years ago, Leslie freaked out about climate change. I get it, we've all been there, right? Not a Climate Scientist is a podcast from Woodwell Climate Research Center. Like and follow us wherever you're getting this podcast, then head on over to our website to sign up for emails so you never miss an episode. Join me next time for a conversation with real-life modern-day cowboy Jim Howell. But when she went looking for something to do about it, she realized she had skills and training that could help so many people beyond herself. She has now written five books about climate psychology, and she writes the Ask a Climate Therapist column for GRIST. She's going to share her story, and she is going to drop a lot of wisdom on us. So let's get into it. Leslie Davenport, I have been looking forward to this. I won't lie. I'm hoping we're going to get a little bit of free therapy out of this episode. But before we get into that, want to definitely hear your story and want to start with, as always, our first question, are you a climate scientist?
Leslie Davenport: Thank No, I am not a climate scientist.
Heather Goldstone: But you are a climate therapist, right? At least Grist says that you are a climate therapist.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, I am. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, but I've been working with it through a climate lens for quite a while now. I'd say almost close to 20 years.
Heather Goldstone: Wow, that's got to put you ahead of the curve of most people for working on, well, climate issues broadly, but especially kind of looking at the psychological, emotional side of climate. don't feel like that's something that's come to light enough and certainly not until recently.
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. Totally agree with you. Yes, I started working on this before terms even like eco-anxiety were very common
Heather Goldstone: You started your professional career as a dancer, I believe. ⁓ So how did that happen and how did that turn into becoming a therapist?
Leslie Davenport: Yes. into this. Well, it's is a long and windy road, but honestly, it all feels so connected to me. So the part that feels relevant ⁓ is I do believe as we face the climate crisis and look solutions ⁓ and find ways to be effective and present to what's happening, it's going take even more than just our logical mind, just our rational thinking. It's going to take creativity. It's going to take an imaginative approach, what we can envision to be possible, as well as the very concrete steps to get there.
Heather Goldstone: So you transition from dance to therapy.
Leslie Davenport: Yes. the bridge there was, so dance, I was thinking of it, experiencing it as a body, mind, emotions, modality. When I was feeling something, considering something, what did my body want to do and how could I express that and how did others receive that? And for any... number of reasons, including starting a family, It wasn't very practical being a performer anymore. But I was still interested in the body-mind connection. So as I was working on my degree in counseling psychology and working toward licensure, ⁓ had an internship in a hospital because I wanted to see that body-mind connection and how it might relate to healing. And that actually became, again, an important step as I moved into climate because I worked in a very innovative integrative medicine program in San Francisco at a major hospital. And we had around the table for our clinical discussions, the physicians, the nurses, but also body workers and nutritionists and therapists ayurvedic practitioners. And so this idea of how do we view healing through multiple lenses and what is it about the range of collective perspectives, interdisciplinary views that offer more, in this case to a particular patient. But I really carried that with me as I was transitioning to climate and looking at what could I offer from the behavioral health space. to those who are scientists and policy makers and frontline workers and to borrow that same interdisciplinary lens.
Heather Goldstone: I love that. don't feel like that probably happens as much as it should to really be looking at health issues that holistically. That's ⁓ really So then you're in your therapy career, you're seeing patients, ⁓ and does climate become part that?
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. And what happened? Well, I had my own personal awakening, my personal climate crisis where it just coalesced in a way that hit home for me. It went from this, this is interesting to this very visceral sense of, boy, are we facing something big, significant, and really urgent. ⁓ So I wanted to turn as much of my personal and life toward that as could. It just became my number one priority. ⁓ And I did what many people do at the beginning of working on a local initiative for clean air and petitions and the things we can find. But then I thought about, well, what's my training? What's my strongest sphere of influence? ⁓ I realized, this took a little while, but I realized ⁓ much of what I'm trained in, like ⁓ people work through denial, supporting lifestyle changes, processing complex emotions and grief, ⁓ conversations that could become contentious, and how to make them more productive. It's kind of like the light bulbs went off and I'm like, I can really see how this fits.
Heather Goldstone: I love that story that you tell of confronting this really huge issue that so many people find overwhelming, are trying to find their place in how do we grapple with this, and that you went to, all right, what do I do? What am I trained for? And how do I bring that to bear? And then it's not even that you went straight to trying to transmit that information to potential patients.
Leslie Davenport: Yes.
Heather Goldstone: But you wrote a book for clinicians first.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, first.
Heather Goldstone: Were you starting to see patients that were asking you or coming to you with this issue? Or was all of this totally ahead of that trend or that wave of actual need kind of coming into your office?
Leslie Davenport: It started more my own awareness, which glad about because I had more time ⁓ to myself and to really look at what is it that's unique and distinct about climate-triggered distress? I'm licensed to practice in California and Washington state. I used to live in California and now I'm up further north. And I then began to get clients who lost their homes in wildfires. So it became very concrete and very real. And you know, I do find in terms of people who reach out to me for therapeutic support, I'm finding it in three major categories. Those that are immediately touched or maybe know someone who's been immediately touched by a climate disaster of some kind. Youth, ⁓ adults who are at that point in their life where they're forward looking. ⁓ What I wanna do? Where do I wanna live? And really feeling ⁓ also by. ⁓ I wasn't expecting to be looking at a future like this with so many risks and unknowns and it changes all my considerations. And the third area being people who are involved in climate work in one way or another. people working for nonprofits, news, I've had newscasters ⁓ deal with this, but who are highly informed ⁓ don't have an outlet or their work isn't structured in a way that supports the emotional side of the work.
Heather Goldstone: That really resonates. Having been in the climate space and for a long time in the journalism space, there's often not a recognition of the toll that that work takes, being engaged with this issue, and it's usually not just 40 hours a week. People are passionate about their work. They're taking it home with them. ⁓ as a journalist, you're supposed to maintain a certain level of objectivity and distance and you're telling someone else's story and somehow that's not supposed to penetrate. And so I really appreciate the recognition that that really does take a toll. And then I think on top of that, professionals in those spaces tend to maybe not want to publicize, right, that they're feeling that toll because it feels like ⁓ ⁓ for pity or, know, "Poor us" when they're in positions to know so well who's really being dramatically impacted on the front lines of climate change, and they don't want to take the focus away from that. So there's so many layers of just, of barriers to really deal with that. yeah, I really, really appreciate that recognition.
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. That's absolutely true. And you know, therapists grapple with it too in the sense that, especially ones that are choosing to become climate aware therapists, that's sort of the umbrella now, because they've got their own climate feelings on as well as supporting other in the work. And ⁓ while can sometimes happen in therapy, you know, what we're really talking about is the way that whether it's informational, direct impacts, impacts, are touching more and more of us all the time.
Heather Goldstone: talked about these different kind of groups of people, maybe the ways that they're encountering climate change, the way that they're processing what they're encountering. And you've talked about just the diversity of different responses people can be having. And I mean, I could come up with a list on my own, right? You've thrown out the phrase eco-anxiety. There's fear. There's grief. There's overwhelm. There may be depression. Do you treat
Leslie Davenport: Yes. Outraged.
Heather Goldstone: Outrage, for sure, for sure, and especially in that younger generation, right? Why is this what we're being handed? How differently do you treat those different, you know, climate is a commonality, but how differently do you treat those different responses? Or is that kind of the overwhelming core of the way that you treat and work with folks around these issues?
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. Yes. Yes, big question. first, it's good to think of ⁓ sort of two broad areas that I look at, what I think of as internal strategies and external strategies. Some need more reinforcing than others. So for example, someone who's working in climate in a way has the external strategies of feeling like they're making a contribution to change,
Heather Goldstone: Ha
Leslie Davenport: however frustrating that might be or too slow. And that certainly can bring some of the feelings, but they're engaged. some clients who are feeling distressed or going through things haven't yet found a way to participate. So there's working with all the feelings and processing the grief and ⁓ how to work with thoughts and all the things that go along with it. And then part of it for them is sort of like I told my story of involvement, what is their story and what are their passions, gifts and spheres of influence where they can participate. And others who are really active, I'll just give examples of youth who are out there doing advocacy work, often need a lot more bolstering around the emotional impacts. And so it is learning the tools to ⁓ calm nervous system and that though there's an urgency to this work, to understand the importance of self-care and Because if we don't do that, there's a very high risk of burnout. ⁓ are showing that. ⁓ that it really needs to be, I think of it as the rhythms we understand in nature. There's an and a flow. There's a turning of the seasons. And we can't just go, go, go without restoring ourselves. But we also can't just stay in the help me feel better without ⁓ finding a to participate. So it starts with a. an assessment of how strong each of those parts are.
Heather Goldstone: You're kind of explaining that in the context of working with folks who are in the climate sphere professionally, but it sounds like it would translate exactly to all of us,
Leslie Davenport: yes, exactly. You're right on point there that we all need both parts and in my work with people, some need more support building up one side and others the other. ⁓ ⁓
Heather Goldstone: Your books really focus, and you already mentioned, the importance of imagination and ⁓ specifically. Can you say more about the of imagery and how you encourage or even ⁓ people work with imagery as a part of their therapy and grappling with climate change?
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me give this simple example and I'll ask you a question, which is how many windows are in the home you're currently living in? You can just take 10 seconds here, 20 seconds.
Heather Goldstone: Do my big sliders, sliding doors, count as windows or doors?
Leslie Davenport: Well, actually, that's probably enough to pause because what I wanted to illustrate is probably, unless you recently remodeled or something, you probably took a little tour of your house. You went and looked in this room and counted these ones and wondered about the sliding door. That's a type of imagery. We didn't have a number pop up -- 24 windows. That is how ⁓ access a lot of information or through images. And it's so natural that we often don't think about it. But those images ⁓ can really support us or they can distress us. It's a communication channel. So for example, worry is a form of imagery. You know, we're playing a scenario over in our head, a thing that happened or anticipating a conversation we're concerned about because there's a certain tension about it. And if we had all the right equipment, we would see how it's registering in our physiology. Our body chemistry changes. Our pulse may change, So in terms of therapeutically, sometimes it's just helping people find those ways to come home to themselves, to relax more deeply that can be supported by ⁓ a beautiful place. ⁓ where they feel most at home, where they feel safe, and really helping them vivify it. But also, there's a way to use it for envisioning possible futures. Like, there's all the work we need to do related to climate and changes. But sometimes we... loose side of where we want to go and what that might look like with our best case scenarios and not just the distress around our worst case scenarios. And of course, it's very hard because we know it's fraught with a lot of uncertainty. ⁓ So there's, I think, an undervalued role in our Western industrialized society for the of those parts of our brain. And I've never wanted to replace one for the other, but I just wanted to be sure we're really using a full brain capacity, ⁓ given how challenging this work is.
Heather Goldstone: It sounds to me a lot like maybe visualization techniques that athletes would use or performers would use, but empowering us all to envision the future. And that is honestly kind of mind blowing because I feel like we're so often hit with we're being told what the future is going to look like or what the realm of possibility is. And instead to say, picture it.
Leslie Davenport: Yeah.
Heather Goldstone: Imagine it, envision it, what could it be? Just feels really open and powerful.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, exactly. It is. And you know, it's challenging too, because we've got all these cognitive biases built into our sort of evolutionary brain. And there's something called a negativity bias ⁓ in for our survival about we pay more attention for good reason to threats, to risks. Used to be kind of scanning the horizon for safety, and now it's more complex in our modern world. But it takes what I've heard the statistics are about three to five times more focus on the positive or what's possible in a good way to balance out our inclination toward the high risk fearful scenarios. So we have to be a little more proactive about building up this part that we're talking about. What's possible? Not in a way that's, you know, separate from the science, but picks up those pieces ⁓ looks at making sure that we have, again, the full scale of what may be possible in the way that you about it. Opens things up, empowering, ⁓ uplifting.
Heather Goldstone: I definitely feel like I'm getting my free therapy here. hope everybody else is. ⁓ I mean, I'm a champion catastrophizer,
Leslie Davenport: you
Heather Goldstone: ⁓ I mean, obviously we need to pay attention to those risks, right? Like we...
Leslie Davenport: No, 100%.
Heather Goldstone: If there weren't risks, there wouldn't necessarily be a need to change what we're doing and address this in the same way, but finding that possibility.
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. And it's psychologically challenging to hang out in the uncertainty, right? We are not sure how it's going to unfold. And it is fraught with threats and risks that are quite real. just psychologically, not from a science point of view, but sometimes people move to doomism because ⁓ they can rest.
Heather Goldstone: Hmm.
Leslie Davenport: And what I mean is rather than this, I don't know what's going to happen. It's really hard to be here. If they just say it's too late. What can I do anyway? not saying that's built on truth, but it's a built on a place to get out of uncertainty, sort of like the polar opposite ⁓ of ⁓ it's that big of a deal. So there's nothing I need to do anyway. They both go along with this. Somehow we're off the hook. Whether it's less serious than we're talking about or whether it's more serious than we're talking about, it takes us out of the challenge of navigating this very dynamic place that we're in.
Heather Goldstone: That is so interesting. Since you brought denial up, and it's the second time you've talked about denial, you actually mentioned denial when you first talked about the skill set that you could bring as a mental health professional to dealing with climate change. I guess first question is, can you just define what you mean by denial? Because my brain immediately goes to
Leslie Davenport: and
Heather Goldstone: the climate denial, it's not happening, we're not causing it, it won't be bad. Is that the denial you're talking about or is there something else as well?
Leslie Davenport: I think, well, we know some of that still exists. Thankfully, I've heard that's getting to be a smaller and smaller portion, partly because climate visibility is on the rise.
Heather Goldstone: It's in all of our lives at this point.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, there's something called disavowal, is more the, you asked, is climate change real, someone ⁓ a place of disavowal might say, well, yes, it is. But again, there's, someone figure this out, we always have. Or what can I do as a teacher? I really don't have any place, because I'm not a climate scientist. Right? You know, so it's sort of like this permission to turn the other way. And that's where there's more room to work therapeutically, because again, part of that is how to help someone be with the difficult feelings that arise when and find their way toward how they can contribute
Heather Goldstone: Ha ha ha. That's part of why this podcast is called What It Is, right? Because we all do need to be thinking and talking about it. And we all have a right and a vested interest to be thinking and talking about it. And to say, that's just for the scientists over there. I'm not a scientist. This isn't my thing. ⁓ not something we can afford. And it's also, as you were pointing to, it may be easier to some extent, but it's completely disempowering.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, and there's so many beautiful examples I've run into about a range of professions and what people are doing. really, I can't think ⁓ of an age group, a professional ⁓ discipline that doesn't have the opportunity ⁓ do a review through a sustainability or a way to contribute in manner. Because I love Catherine Hayhoe, the climate scientist who talks so much about even bringing it more into the conversation and allowing it to be more normalized as something where there's a shared concern really opens up a lot of possibilities and helps things move toward ⁓ more policy and more support and all the things that we need.
Heather Goldstone: ⁓ for me personally, there is nothing than having a big, scary problem and trying to keep it a secret. And that's what so many of us are essentially doing in trying not to talk about climate change, being worried that somebody might disagree or ⁓ just not sure where that conversation going to go. I would imagine that patients get a lot of
Leslie Davenport: Yeah.
Heather Goldstone: Well, I'm going to rephrase that. People get a lot of relief finding an outlet to talk about that. And maybe they feel most comfortable coming into the private setting of a therapist's office to say, I got this big thing that I've got to unload. But wouldn't it be great if we could get that out into the open and all be talking about it?
Leslie Davenport: Yes, 100%. And you're right, it sometimes starts in a more confidential setting. But part of my work is encouraging people to talk about it. And you're right. We know that more and more people are concerned. More than half is my understanding in the US. And yet there is this shared like, ooh, but maybe I shouldn't say anything because maybe they're not feeling this too. When we're, I think, as you said, a lot of us are carrying the same secret, carrying the same concern,
Heather Goldstone: you have written five books so far on climate, ⁓ don't know, climate psychology, let's call it. I think that's right. I think I got them all. Two of those for, two for practitioners, right? ⁓ One, ⁓ guess for ⁓ patients, ⁓ more adults and then a couple geared toward kids.
Leslie Davenport: Yes, counting them up. Yes, that's right. ⁓ Yeah.
Heather Goldstone: Let's start with practitioners. You used this term earlier, climate-aware therapists. What in your mind does it take to call yourself a climate-aware therapist? And what would you ask of others in your profession to become more climate-aware and more able to help people grapple with climate change?
Leslie Davenport: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, unfortunately, at this point in time, there's no mental health licensure anywhere from counselors, social workers to psychiatrists that requires any training at all in being climate aware. And unfortunately, what happens is that if someone comes in with climate-triggered distress to a practitioner who does not have that broader understanding, they pathologize the person, as being too sensitive or this is generalized anxiety and they're sort of obsessing over one thing, rather than starting with, this is an extremely valid concern ⁓ of course you're feeling whatever those things are that we talked about earlier. ⁓ then from there, that place of validation going into how the support might look. So the mental health field has to ⁓ conscientiously seek out training. ⁓ So I offer continuing education workshops, as do There are organizations starting to like the Climate Psychology Association, which is sort of a network and hub for therapists to come and learn more. begin to shape the foundational principles of this specialization. So but it takes effort or to go spend time with a book, consult with a colleague.
Heather Goldstone: do we need a diagnosis? is this separate thing that needs to be called out as a different diagnosis? Because you were talking about misdiagnosing climate-triggered issues.
Leslie Davenport: a it's a very ⁓ subject because We don't want name it as anything other than a completely understandable and even healthy reaction to a system that's creating damage. You're not the one damaged, the system's damage. ⁓ Of course, upset. Of course, you're sad. Of course, you're angry about it. It's tricky because it's important to not pathologize the emotions that naturally arise. At the same time, the way our mental health system works, if someone wants or needs to use their insurance, it requires a diagnosis or it needs to sort come in under an existing one. So we don't want to misrepresent things, but we want to fight for access. So it's in a very tricky place right now. One of the things that I'm really interested in is bringing the therapeutic tools into much more of a public health model. like ⁓ how can we rather than clients having to seek out a therapist and all the cost and involved with that, how can we bring these tools out to where people are ⁓ living and experiencing it and making it much more broadly accessible?
Heather Goldstone: If you had to give us, and mentioned the inner work and the outer work. Let's start with the inner. Folks are listening to this podcast and they're like, my God, I need this. What's a place for them to start? Is there an exercise that you can share with us, a prompt, a resource where folks can go to get started on doing that inner work?
Leslie Davenport: Yes, I'm going to cheat a little bit in name two. One is I was talking before about regulating our nervous system ⁓ and and how our thoughts and feelings and how we feel interconnected. ⁓ And of the easiest ⁓ free we have that we can travel with any time, anywhere.
Heather Goldstone: Please do.
Leslie Davenport: is working with our breath. And there are a lot of resources for how to do simple, I see you breathing, simple breaths. that's one of the simplest ones. It's just called a balanced breath where you count or just have a sense of an even in-breath and an even out-breath. Because when we're stressed, we either constrict or hold our breath.
Heather Goldstone: All you have to do is say the word and you just, ⁓ I have to breathe.
Leslie Davenport: or we sigh a lot because we're trying to release something, which is important. ⁓ it's very much of a reset for our nervous system. So that's an easy one. ⁓ It's also really important when we were talking about conversations to connect with other people. So there are a lot of things popping up in communities called climate cafes. A lot of them are free. Some of them are online. Sometimes they're facilitated by a therapist, other times not. But it's a chance to get together. It's intended not to be advice giving or necessarily advocacy oriented. ⁓ But this is what's on my mind. This is how I'm feeling. and just to allow it a safe place for it to be conversational. And sometimes those conversations do evolve into ones that are a little more project oriented or community based, which is fine too, but just a place to bring these conversations.
Heather Goldstone: That sounds like that maybe shades from the internal work into the external work. You're building community. You're starting to have conversations. You're maybe starting to figure out what more you can do together. So that's a nice bridge there.
Leslie Davenport: Well, before I go to the external, let me just also say there's also a way that community supports our internal resiliency. You know, if we're with other people who are like, I'm in this too, I'm in this with you, we feel relief, we feel connection. We're not as isolated. And that does a lot for our emotional and mental health too.
Heather Goldstone: Absolutely. Okay, so then to the fully external. Yeah, if you're with a patient and you've talked about this need to balance the internal, the emotional, the psychological work, and then that finding agency and the way you find that is by doing. So how do you help someone find their thing to do?
Leslie Davenport: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you we've touched on this a little bit. So I want to just underscore that if people follow their passion or where they're interested, there's going to be a way to express that. So musician, a singer, a filmmaker, whatever, a writer can ⁓ include putting to or putting music to or putting images to the message, sometimes more powerfully than a speech. And it doesn't all have to be individual efforts. In fact, it can be really helpful to join a local nonprofit or just an informal community group or ⁓ some faith communities have a ⁓ green group within their congregations. There are just so many ways to find those outlets that align with where you to make a difference and perhaps the skill and training you have. ⁓ I actually talking with somebody the other day who was doing a lot on charity and giving and how important that is. And some people may be in a position ⁓ where can be their most powerful contribution. There's sort of no limit to it. So just to ⁓ open that notion of what does advocacy look like. It looks like everything, right? ⁓
Heather Goldstone: I totally agree and I love that. Well, Leslie, I want to thank you so much for a conversation that has left me feeling lighter, that has ⁓ brought in some new ideas ⁓ me. ⁓ I know that you have a new book, a workbook, coming out in a few months. So definitely expect a callback from us in a few months and we will go through that workbook.
Leslie Davenport: you
Heather Goldstone: because I think we could all use more of this. But thank you so much for your time.
Leslie Davenport: thank you too. I love this approach.

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