# Slavery and Tariffs

An episode of [Paul Krugman Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1877144831), 13 Mar 2026, 5:40.

Audio: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/190834679/146784990f2ce4c0c5aefd29d2091e8f.mp3

The latest excuse for imposing tariffs is even less credible than previous excuses. Get full access to Paul Krugman at paulkrugman.substack.com/subscribe

## Transcript

[0:01] SPEAKER_00: So the Trump administration thinks that slavery is bad.
[0:07] SPEAKER_00: Actually not, but they're using that as an excuse for tariffs.
[0:11] SPEAKER_00: Hi, Paul Krugman here.
[0:12] SPEAKER_00: Another brief video update.
[0:16] SPEAKER_00: It's Friday.
[0:18] SPEAKER_00: We're still bombing Iran.
[0:19] Iran is still blocking the Strait of Hormuz,
[0:21] and that's our prime fixation these days.
[0:25] SPEAKER_00: But meanwhile, tariff policy goes on.
[0:29] SPEAKER_00: Now,
[0:30] SPEAKER_00: You probably know the story.
[0:33] Donald Trump used some dubious legal maneuvering to impose a
[0:39] lot of tariffs without
[0:41] SPEAKER_00: consulting Congress,
[0:42] SPEAKER_00: without getting legislation.
[0:44] SPEAKER_00: The Supreme Court ruled that most of those were illegal.
[0:48] SPEAKER_00: They took their time about doing it,
[0:49] SPEAKER_00: but now those tariffs,
[0:51] SPEAKER_00: the IEPA tariffs,
[0:52] SPEAKER_00: which were about 70% of the whole thing,
[0:54] SPEAKER_00: are gone.
[0:55] SPEAKER_00: They have been somewhat replaced by another dubious legal invocation,
[1:02] in this case section 122 instead of alphabet soup this is all
[1:07] kind of number soup
[1:09] which is also illegal but that may be moot because it's also
[1:12] time limited and that
[1:13] will expire in July also it's not satisfactory to the Trump
[1:21] people because it's not
[1:23] SPEAKER_00: discretionary it's a flat across the board 10% tariff and what
[1:28] SPEAKER_00: What they want to do is be able to say to countries,
[1:31] SPEAKER_00: be nice to us,
[1:32] SPEAKER_00: give us what we want,
[1:34] SPEAKER_00: and we will give you a break on tariffs.
[1:36] SPEAKER_00: And Section 122 doesn't let them do that.
[1:40] SPEAKER_00: So they have been scrambling to find replacements,
[1:43] SPEAKER_00: and it looks like the main attempt now is to use Section 301,
[1:48] SPEAKER_00: which is unfair foreign trading practices.
[1:51] SPEAKER_00: Now,
[1:52] SPEAKER_00: we were kind of wondering,
[1:53] SPEAKER_00: I was wondering,
[1:54] SPEAKER_00: what would they use to do Section 301s against a large part of the world?
[1:59] And it turns out that a large part of the answer is they're
[2:03] trying to invoke a
[2:04] clause that sanctions countries that somehow or other either
[2:10] engage in or fail to
[2:12] SPEAKER_00: deal with other countries engaging in forced labor,
[2:16] SPEAKER_00: effectively slavery.
[2:17] SPEAKER_00: which is, you know, that's real.
[2:19] SPEAKER_00: The U.S.
[2:19] SPEAKER_00: has longstanding sanctions against some Chinese exports because of,
[2:25] SPEAKER_00: you know,
[2:26] SPEAKER_00: they do do forced labor.
[2:28] SPEAKER_00: But this is a,
[2:30] the reported plan is to bring Section 301 forced labor cases
[2:35] against 60 trading
[2:37] SPEAKER_00: partners,
[2:38] SPEAKER_00: including the European Union,
[2:40] SPEAKER_00: which does not do forced labor,
[2:41] which in fact has its own laws against importing goods produced
[2:45] with forced labor.
[2:46] SPEAKER_00: But the claim is going to be that the European Union,
[2:50] SPEAKER_00: along with 59 other trading partners,
[2:52] does not do enough to limit trade with countries that make use
[2:56] of forced labor.
[2:58] SPEAKER_00: That's a pretty wild thing to be doing.
[3:01] SPEAKER_00: And it may seem uncharacteristic.
[3:06] Do you believe that the Trump administration is deeply
[3:09] concerned about forced labor?
[3:11] Yeah,
[3:11] well,
[3:11] if you believe that,
[3:12] I've got some shoes that don't fit to sell you.
[3:17] SPEAKER_00: This is obviously an excuse.
[3:19] SPEAKER_00: What makes it especially galling is that, if anything,
[3:24] We know that significant figures in the Trump administration
[3:27] are just fine with forced labor.
[3:29] Pete Hegseth likes a pastor who is on record as saying that he
[3:35] thought that slavery
[3:36] SPEAKER_00: in the South before the Civil War was a good thing.
[3:39] SPEAKER_00: It helped to create racial harmony.
[3:43] SPEAKER_00: So they have nothing against slavery.
[3:45] SPEAKER_00: This is just a device.
[3:47] SPEAKER_00: And it's especially shameful.
[3:49] SPEAKER_00: And the argument that we can put terrorists on the European Union
[3:53] because they're not doing enough to stop the importation of
[3:56] goods produced with forced labor.
[3:58] SPEAKER_00: It's just crazy.
[4:00] SPEAKER_00: Also,
[4:00] SPEAKER_00: they're rushing to get this stuff through,
[4:02] SPEAKER_00: so they're supposed to be...
[4:04] SPEAKER_00: The law here does not actually give
[4:08] SPEAKER_00: The president can't just buy fiat.
[4:10] SPEAKER_00: He's not supposed to be able to just buy fiat,
[4:12] SPEAKER_00: impose tariffs,
[4:13] SPEAKER_00: even if you believe that there are unfair foreign practices.
[4:17] SPEAKER_00: There's supposed to be an investigation and then a hearing.
[4:22] SPEAKER_00: So they are supposedly having three days of hearings at the end of April.
[4:28] SPEAKER_00: which is,
[4:28] SPEAKER_00: that's not enough time to do an investigation,
[4:32] SPEAKER_00: not enough time to have a meaningful hearing.
[4:35] But of course,
[4:36] it's not intended to be a real investigation or a real hearing.
[4:38] SPEAKER_00: This is just an excuse.
[4:40] SPEAKER_00: And they're barely even pretending.
[4:42] SPEAKER_00: They're actually kind of openly saying,
[4:44] that we need this to replace the tariffs that the Supreme Court
[4:48] threw out.
[4:49] SPEAKER_00: So there's a little parallel here.
[4:52] There were a bunch of tariffs that were imposed supposedly
[4:55] because of fentanyl
[4:57] SPEAKER_00: against countries like Canada that hardly supply any fentanyl.
[5:00] SPEAKER_00: Now we have these 301s imposed because of forced labor.
[5:05] SPEAKER_00: It's all nonsense.
[5:07] SPEAKER_00: And aside from it being bad economic policy, it's really corrosive.
[5:12] SPEAKER_00: What we're saying is that
[5:14] SPEAKER_00: Laws are not serious.
[5:15] They're just to be used to drum up excuses to do what the
[5:20] president wants to do.
[5:22] SPEAKER_00: And that's part of the broader picture.
[5:26] SPEAKER_00: I like to say that tariffs are a different issue from the war,
[5:30] SPEAKER_00: but at some level,
[5:31] SPEAKER_00: it's all the same thing.
[5:33] And if you aren't feeling very concerned about where we're
[5:35] going with all this,
[5:36] SPEAKER_00: then you aren't paying attention.
[5:38] SPEAKER_00: Take care.

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