# Kids Will Do Well When They Can: Rethinking “Defiant” Behavior

An episode of [Beneath the Behavior: Supporting Neurodivergent Kids With Science, Not Shame](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1864739589), 10 Jan 2026, 12 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2567695/episodes/18484673-kids-will-do-well-when-they-can-rethinking-defiant-behavior.mp3

If you’ve ever wondered whether your child is being defiant — or felt guilty about how you’ve responded — this episode is for you. Many parents of neurodivergent kids are told (directly or indirectly) that their child won’t behave, won’t listen, or won’t try. Over time, that story can lead to stricter discipline, more punishment, and a lot of shame — even when nothing seems to help. In this episode, pediatric psychologist Dr. Mark Bowers offers a different framework, rooted in neuroscience and compassion: Kids will do well when they can. You’ll learn: • Why “defiance” is often a misunderstanding, not a character issue • How lagging skills show up as refusal, arguing, shutdowns, or explosions • Why punishment backfires when behavior is driven by skill gaps • How to shift from control and power struggles to problem-solving • What to ask instead of “Why won’t my child listen?” This conversation doesn’t dismiss boundaries or safety. Instead, it separates support in the moment from skill-building over time, so real change becomes possible. If you’ve been carrying guilt, frustration, or fear about your child’s behavior, this episode offers relief — and a more accurate way to understand what’s really going on beneath the surface. Let Us Know What You Think! Support the show Beneath the Behavior is an educational podcast for parents and caregivers of neurodivergent kids. The information shared is not therapy or a substitute for working with your own provider. Episodes are intended to offer understanding, context, and language—not individual advice. If you’re looking for ongoing support grounded in the same science-not-shame approach, check out the Neurodivergent Parenting Collective.

## Transcript

[0:01] SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Dr.
[0:02] SPEAKER_00: Mark Bowers.
[0:03] SPEAKER_00: I'm a pediatric psychologist and I specialize in working with neurodivergent kids and their families.
[0:09] SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for parents and caregivers who feel like parenting has been harder than they expected, and who want understanding instead of blame.
[0:20] SPEAKER_00: Here we slow things down and look beneath behavior so we can make sense of what's actually going on from a brain and nervous system perspective and support neurodivergent kids with science, not shame.
[0:34] SPEAKER_00: Before we get started, one quick note.
[0:37] SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for education and understanding.
[0:41] SPEAKER_00: It isn't therapy and it isn't a substitute for working with your own provider.
[0:46] SPEAKER_00: I won't be giving individual advice, but my hope is that these conversations help you think more clearly and compassionately about your child.
[0:54] SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is about a sentence that can change everything for neurodivergent families.
[1:00] SPEAKER_00: Kids do well when they can.
[1:04] SPEAKER_00: And if you've been living inside the word defiant, whether someone else has used it or you've started thinking it yourself, I want you to stay with me.
[1:15] SPEAKER_00: Because this episode is going to say the quiet part out loud.
[1:20] SPEAKER_00: Let's start here.
[1:23] SPEAKER_00: A lot of parents are carrying guilt about how they've responded to their child's behavior.
[1:30] SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've yelled, maybe you've punished, maybe you've taken things away, maybe you've tried to get stricter because it felt like nothing else worked.
[1:41] SPEAKER_00: And underneath that there's this painful question.
[1:45] SPEAKER_00: Why does my child keep doing this?
[1:49] SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it gets translated into a different question.
[1:53] SPEAKER_00: Why won't my child just listen?
[1:57] SPEAKER_00: And then without anyone saying it directly, the story becomes they're choosing this.
[2:04] SPEAKER_00: They're being defiant.
[2:07] SPEAKER_00: They're testing you.
[2:09] SPEAKER_00: They're trying to get control.
[2:12] SPEAKER_00: Here's the quiet part out loud.
[2:15] SPEAKER_00: For many neurodivergent kids, what looks like defiance is actually a skill gap showing up under stress.
[2:24] SPEAKER_00: Not a character flaw, not a moral issue, not a sign that your child doesn't care, a skill gap.
[2:34] SPEAKER_00: And once you can see behavior through that lens, punishment starts to feel not just ineffective, but misaligned.
[2:45] SPEAKER_00: Because you can't punish a brain into having a skill it doesn't have yet.
[2:52] SPEAKER_00: Now when I say kids do well when they can, I mean something very specific.
[2:59] SPEAKER_00: If a child has the skills available in the moment to meet an expectation, and they feel safe enough to access those skills, most children will do it.
[3:11] SPEAKER_00: They might complain, they might struggle, they might need support, but in general, kids don't choose to fall apart if they can hold it together.
[3:24] SPEAKER_00: Kids don't choose to be miserable if they can be okay.
[3:28] SPEAKER_00: And this is where a lot of traditional parenting narratives go wrong.
[3:33] SPEAKER_00: They treat behavior like it's primarily a motivation problem.
[3:38] SPEAKER_00: As if the child is thinking, I could do this, but I won't.
[3:44] SPEAKER_00: But many neurodivergent kids are actually living in a different reality.
[3:50] SPEAKER_00: I want to do this, but I can't right now.
[3:54] SPEAKER_00: Or I don't know how.
[5:14] SPEAKER_00: Sensory regulation, which is functioning while the body feels overwhelmed.
[5:20] SPEAKER_00: And language under stress, which is being able to explain what's wrong instead of acting it out.
[5:27] SPEAKER_00: Now here's what happens in real life.
[5:30] SPEAKER_00: A child is asked to do something that requires one or more of these skills, and they get overwhelmed, they get stuck, they get flooded, they get rigid, they get reactive.
[5:44] SPEAKER_00: And what does the adult see?
[5:46] SPEAKER_00: Refusal, back talk, ignoring, exploding, walking or running away, arguing, doing the opposite.
[5:58] SPEAKER_00: So we label it defiant.
[6:02] SPEAKER_00: But defiant is not a diagnosis, it's a conclusion we reach when we don't know what skill is missing.
[6:12] SPEAKER_00: And once you label a child as defiant, the whole approach changes.
[6:18] SPEAKER_00: Everything becomes about control.
[6:21] SPEAKER_00: The adult escalates to make the child stop.
[6:24] SPEAKER_00: The child escalates because their nervous system is already overloaded.
[6:30] SPEAKER_00: And then everybody ends up in a power struggle that was never actually about power.
[6:36] SPEAKER_00: It was about capacity.
[6:39] SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about punishment, because this is where a lot of parents carry shame.
[6:46] SPEAKER_00: Many parents have punished because they were scared.
[6:50] SPEAKER_00: Scared of what the behavior means.
[6:54] SPEAKER_00: Scared it will get worse.
[6:57] SPEAKER_00: Scared that if they don't get on top of it, their child won't be okay.
[7:03] SPEAKER_00: Or simply exhausted.
[7:06] SPEAKER_00: When you're tired and overwhelmed, you reach for what you were taught.
[7:11] SPEAKER_00: And many of us were taught that consequences build behavior.
[7:17] SPEAKER_00: Now here's the problem: punishment assumes the child had the skill available and chose not to use it.
[7:26] SPEAKER_00: But if the behavior is coming from lagging skills, punishment doesn't teach the skill, it adds stress.
[7:36] SPEAKER_00: And stress is the exact thing that makes skills less available.
[7:41] SPEAKER_00: So punishment often creates a cycle.
[7:44] SPEAKER_00: Child struggles, adult punishes, child feels more stress, child struggles more.
[7:54] SPEAKER_00: Sometimes punishment appears to work in the short term because the child shuts down or freezes.
[8:02] SPEAKER_00: But that isn't learning, that's protection, and it comes with a cost.
[8:09] SPEAKER_00: It can teach kids my feelings are dangerous.
[8:14] SPEAKER_00: I'm bad when I'm struggling.
[8:17] SPEAKER_00: No one is trying to understand me.
[8:20] SPEAKER_00: I have to hide what's happening.
[8:23] SPEAKER_00: Parents don't want that.
[8:26] SPEAKER_00: They want growth.
[8:28] SPEAKER_00: They want resilience.
[8:30] SPEAKER_00: They want skills.
[8:33] SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening and thinking, I've punished and I hate that I've done it, I want to say this clearly.
[8:43] SPEAKER_00: You are not a bad parent.
[8:47] SPEAKER_00: You were responding with the tools you had.
[8:51] SPEAKER_00: This episode is not here to shame you.
[8:54] SPEAKER_00: It's here to offer you a better framework.
[8:58] SPEAKER_00: Because the goal isn't perfection, the goal is accuracy.
[9:05] SPEAKER_00: Here's the mindset shift I want you to practice.
[9:10] SPEAKER_00: Instead of my child won't, start trying on my child can't yet.
[9:20] SPEAKER_00: And instead of they're choosing this, try what skill is missing here.
[9:30] SPEAKER_00: That question alone changes your tone, changes your body language, it changes the emotional temperature in the room.
[9:40] SPEAKER_00: It moves you out of punishment and into problem solving.
[9:46] SPEAKER_00: Now, to be clear, this doesn't mean there are no boundaries, doesn't mean you let unsafe behavior happen.
[9:56] SPEAKER_00: It means you separate two things: safety and support in the moment, and skill building outside the moment.
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: Because skill building happens when kids are calm enough to learn, not when they're flooded, not when they're dysregulated, not when they're in a meltdown, shutdown, or fight or flight state.
[10:23] SPEAKER_00: If you want long-term change, the question becomes: how do we build the missing skills over time?
[10:32] SPEAKER_00: And the answer is usually some mix of lowering stress where you can, adding structure where it helps, teaching skills when calm, practicing small steps, supporting regulation, and adjusting expectations to match reality, not wishful thinking.
[10:56] SPEAKER_00: That's how capacity grows.
[11:00] SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening and thinking, okay, but how do I figure out which skills are lagging for my child?
[11:08] SPEAKER_00: Well, that's exactly the kind of work that I do inside the Neurodivergent Parenting Collective.
[11:14] SPEAKER_00: It's a membership program where we slow these things down, identify the likely skill gaps underneath the behavior, and talk through how to support those skills over time without shame and without quick fix promises.
[11:30] SPEAKER_00: If that kind of ongoing support would be helpful, I'll include information in the episode notes.
[11:36] SPEAKER_00: No pressure, it's simply there if you want it.
[11:40] SPEAKER_00: Before we wrap up, I want to say this clearly.
[11:43] SPEAKER_00: If today's episode brought up frustration, sadness, or even relief, that makes sense.
[11:50] SPEAKER_00: Parenting a neurodivergent child asks a lot, and it often asks more than anyone expects.
[11:58] SPEAKER_00: If there's one thing that I hope you take away, it's this.
[12:02] SPEAKER_00: Your child's behavior is telling a story.
[12:06] SPEAKER_00: Your job isn't to force it to stop, it's to understand what it's trying to say.
[12:13] SPEAKER_00: Here, we focus on supporting neurodivergent kids with science, not shame.
[12:19] SPEAKER_00: You are not failing your child.
[12:22] SPEAKER_00: You are learning how to understand them, and that matters.

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