# 2025-05-21 LIVE DEBATE \[God is Imaginary\]

An episode of [Deconstruction Zone](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1837730286), 12 Sep 2025, 4 h 07 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67728457/2025_05_21_19_30_44_converted.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: To talk.
[0:01] Speaker 2: Guest box is open and the YouTube slash, Facebook, slash
[0:07] Speaker 2: everything else. Guest box is open and ready to go,
[0:11] Speaker 2: so we should have everything ready to rock and well,
[0:16] Speaker 2: rock and Doug, good to see you, guys, Welcome in.
[0:20] Speaker 2: I see all the friends coming in to party at M's.
[0:23] Speaker 2: Is already up in here. Good to see you M's.
[0:26] Speaker 2: And we've got a bunch of people waiting already on
[0:28] Speaker 2: the YouTube que ask Shara, good to see you. A
[0:33] Speaker 2: great name. By the way, it should be a fun night. Sorry,
[0:37] Speaker 2: I couldn't start it, Larter. I was traveling home for work,
[0:41] Speaker 2: so I was in the air for a little while,
[0:43] Speaker 2: so I couldn't get home any earlier. But we're here
[0:46] Speaker 2: now and we're going to cook. You say there's echo
[0:49] Speaker 2: on YouTube? Is that true? That'd be weird. Let me
[0:53] Speaker 2: make sure my microphone is set up properly. Yeah, I
[0:57] Speaker 2: got the right microphone. There shouldn't be any other audio
[1:03] Speaker 2: feeding over interesting. Yeah, I think that must be on
[1:06] Speaker 2: your guys's end. I don't. I don't hear an echo.
[1:09] Speaker 2: You guys hear an echo? And are you telling me
[1:11] Speaker 2: it's choppy on TikTok? The crazy that cannot be the case?
[1:20] Speaker 2: Crazy we had a Oh, there's an audio delay. No echo. Interesting,
[1:29] Speaker 2: Well is it an audio delay or video delay? Now
[1:34] Speaker 2: I'm curious. No echo. I appreciate that. Listen, while I
[1:39] Speaker 2: was gone, I legit had. Yeah, there might be a
[1:45] Speaker 2: little video delay. That's fine. That's because I'm using like
[1:49] Speaker 2: my real camera and I'm doing some funny stuff to
[1:52] Speaker 2: get the video into TikTok. If there's a delay, the
[1:55] Speaker 2: delay might be on TikTok and not on YouTube, just
[2:00] Speaker 2: because of the way I have to get everything run in.
[2:03] Speaker 2: But I should have plenty of internet bandwidth this time
[2:07] Speaker 2: around to make things happen. While I was gone they installed,
[2:14] Speaker 2: I switched for my cable provider, which was giving me
[2:16] Speaker 2: dogshit upload speeds. I switched to a different provider that
[2:22] Speaker 2: uses fiber rather than broadband, and now my upload speeds
[2:27] Speaker 2: and my download speeds are much much better. So I
[2:30] Speaker 2: think we should be able to have plenty of actual
[2:34] Speaker 2: internet bandwidth. So with that said, I think everything's ready
[2:37] Speaker 2: to rock and roll. I'm gonna grab a super chat
[2:41] Speaker 2: and then we'll get our first guest in here awake. Now,
[2:45] Speaker 2: welcome to the crack and Crew. Lee, Holy shit, thanks
[2:47] Speaker 2: for joining. I appreciate that members are the backbone of
[2:51] Speaker 2: this community. They help keep this channel rolling. And Texas Panhandler,
[2:55] Speaker 2: good to see you tonight, friend, Thank you so much
[2:57] Speaker 2: for the six sixty six. Hail Nero says, I was
[3:00] Speaker 2: given a vision by Doug last night. I can't wait
[3:03] Speaker 2: to hear it. An apologists will crash out on the
[3:05] Speaker 2: stream today. Hallelujah, praise his tony name, Halleluja. Doug, and listen.
[3:11] Speaker 2: I don't claim to be a prophet of anything except
[3:13] Speaker 2: for Doug, and I'm willing to agree with you. I'm
[3:17] Speaker 2: inclined to believe that there is a high percentage chance
[3:23] Speaker 2: that there will be at least one apologist crash out
[3:26] Speaker 2: here on the live stream. Shit, we might even get praise.
[3:29] Speaker 2: I am coming back for another crash out session. He
[3:32] Speaker 2: makes NonStop videos about me. He's obsessive. Either he's got
[3:36] Speaker 2: some sort of psychological problem or he's got a crush out.
[3:39] Speaker 2: I'm not sure which one, but anyways, we love a
[3:43] Speaker 2: good crash out session. Johannah, thank you so much for
[3:47] Speaker 2: sending out five d Z memberships. I really appreciate that.
[3:51] Speaker 2: Big w Johannah. And as Shar's asking if Adasa's coming back,
[3:55] Speaker 2: I don't know if Adasa's come back anytime soon. She
[3:59] Speaker 2: made her her rounds with a bunch of other streamers
[4:05] Speaker 2: crashing out on like multiple lives, so and then I
[4:09] Speaker 2: think after that, I don't know if she was too
[4:12] Speaker 2: embarrassed or people weren't taking her on the live streams anymore.
[4:15] Speaker 2: But I haven't seen much of her since. But I
[4:18] Speaker 2: really haven't been on TikTok at all this week because
[4:20] Speaker 2: I've been stuck inside of somebody's factory, like working twelve
[4:24] Speaker 2: hour ships, so I didn't really get a chance to
[4:27] Speaker 2: do much. That being said, we had a guest on
[4:30] Speaker 2: TikTok and they they must have requested by accident. But
[4:34] Speaker 2: the TikTok guest box is open, and obviously the guest
[4:39] Speaker 2: box on YouTube is open. You can go to the
[4:43] Speaker 2: link shown above or over here if it's horizontal and
[4:48] Speaker 2: it's TinyURL dot com forward slash guest dz. It's also
[4:52] Speaker 2: in the description of the YouTube slash, Facebook slash everything
[4:57] Speaker 2: other everything else video and Johannah think so much for
[5:00] Speaker 2: the supertest, as I'm hoping for a good laugh tonight. Listen.
[5:02] Speaker 2: If we've learned anything from these doing these live streams,
[5:06] Speaker 2: it's that there's there's gonna be some laugh there's gonna
[5:10] Speaker 2: be some crashouts there. You know, it's gonna be crazy.
[5:13] Speaker 2: Danielle wants to know what I do for work. Well,
[5:17] Speaker 2: I do engineering and I design machines for a living.
[5:21] Speaker 2: But sometimes I have to go to customer job sites
[5:28] Speaker 2: when there are like really large deadlines that are looming
[5:33] Speaker 2: in order to make sure that the deadlines are hit.
[5:36] Speaker 2: So like, if we sell a machine, sometimes we guarantee
[5:39] Speaker 2: its performance chat. Thank you so much for the blooming
[5:42] Speaker 2: I appreciate that. So like, if we sell a machine
[5:45] Speaker 2: and we guarantee its performance by a certain date, and
[5:49] Speaker 2: if the project is behind, then obviously it's like all
[5:52] Speaker 2: hands on deck trying to meet the deadline. And our
[5:55] Speaker 2: deadline for this particular project is imminently coming, so everyone's
[6:00] Speaker 2: kind of scrambling to make sure we don't miss the deadline.
[6:03] Speaker 2: And last super chat from Ben. Thank you so much,
[6:05] Speaker 2: Ben for the super chap. I appreciate that. Is have
[6:07] Speaker 2: you ever heard of that scammer Bill Wise who had
[6:10] Speaker 2: a book twenty three Minutes in hell Sad? So many
[6:14] Speaker 2: Christians make this guy so much money and believe in this. Yeah,
[6:17] Speaker 2: I actually I have heard of that. So, but there's
[6:20] Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that do that have like
[6:22] Speaker 2: these nd slash afterlife books, And the problem is, you know,
[6:28] Speaker 2: there are some people who legitimately do have NDEs. It's
[6:32] Speaker 2: or out about experience chat. Thank you for the confetti
[6:35] Speaker 2: and Parkner thank you for her hearts. The problem though,
[6:38] Speaker 2: is that, like there's a lot of people who don't
[6:40] Speaker 2: like and they're just making it up. So it is
[6:43] Speaker 2: what is. But yeah, I'm aware of this particular scammer
[6:48] Speaker 2: Bill Wise, And there was another one of a young
[6:51] Speaker 2: man shit it was like seventeen or eighteen that ended
[6:54] Speaker 2: up getting his story publicized and then had to retract
[6:58] Speaker 2: it later. Get our first guest in here, looks like
[7:02] Speaker 2: we got Tim with us. How you doing, Tim? Hold on?
[7:07] Speaker 2: One second? Tim? One second?
[7:13] Speaker 1: Tim?
[7:14] Speaker 2: If you're talking, I can't hear you? What about this?
[7:16] Speaker 2: Try that?
[7:18] Speaker 3: Can you hear me?
[7:18] Speaker 4: Now?
[7:20] Speaker 2: Can anyone hear Tim? Because I can't hear Tim? Of course,
[7:25] Speaker 2: first first call the night always seems to have the
[7:29] Speaker 2: same problem. Can somebody jump in my video, ninja guest
[7:33] Speaker 2: que and test the audio with me? Is Benny hanging around?
[7:37] Speaker 2: Anyone who's got known good working microphones and whatnot, so
[7:42] Speaker 2: we can double check the audio I show that chat.
[7:46] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the balloons. I appreciate that.
[7:48] Speaker 2: Oh you heard him get out of here? How do
[7:50] Speaker 2: you guys hear him? And I can't hear him or
[7:52] Speaker 2: my headphones on? Shit, I hope my headphones are on.
[7:57] Speaker 2: Somebody jump in the guest box. Let me let me
[7:59] Speaker 2: know what's gonna You can hear the audio, so you
[8:01] Speaker 2: guys can hear Tim and I can't hear Tim. That's crazy.
[8:06] Speaker 2: That can't be right. One second. If I turned but
[8:15] Speaker 2: speaker on right here, I can hear Tim, but it
[8:19] Speaker 2: might it might actually echo if I do that. What's up, Tim?
[8:24] Speaker 1: Now?
[8:24] Speaker 3: Much? You hear me?
[8:27] Speaker 5: Yeah?
[8:27] Speaker 2: I can hear you right now. Guys, let me know
[8:29] Speaker 2: if if there's an echo. I turned something on that
[8:33] Speaker 2: I typically don't have to turn on to make this
[8:35] Speaker 2: rig work, So I want to make sure I'm not
[8:37] Speaker 2: doubling the audio. But anyways, Tim, welcome in. Sorry for
[8:44] Speaker 2: the uh you know the first the first YouTube guests
[8:47] Speaker 2: of the night always bring in brings in some kind
[8:50] Speaker 2: of like there's an audio thing of a jig that
[8:54] Speaker 2: works this time and didn't work last time, or it
[8:57] Speaker 2: worked last time. It didn't work this time, but you're
[8:59] Speaker 2: in now.
[9:01] Speaker 3: Well, thank you, thank you for having me.
[9:04] Speaker 2: So, Tim, are you at least eighteen and are you
[9:07] Speaker 2: a believer?
[9:09] Speaker 3: I am at least eighteen over eighteen. I want to
[9:14] Speaker 3: say I used to be a believer.
[9:16] Speaker 6: I probably deconstructed unknownly, but I've listened to your show
[9:23] Speaker 6: for a very long time, and I actually just had
[9:28] Speaker 6: a little cracking joke for you rock.
[9:32] Speaker 3: That's it's probably not a joke, but.
[9:35] Speaker 6: You wanted me to demonstrate the power of God over
[9:40] Speaker 6: your rock, Doug, and h if I strike your rock
[9:43] Speaker 6: with iron rod twice, I bet you he was cracking half.
[9:51] Speaker 3: Its guaranteed.
[9:53] Speaker 2: Well that's that's why Moses wasn't allowed in the promise then,
[9:56] Speaker 2: because he struck Doug twice. And Doug was like, no, no,
[10:00] Speaker 2: that wasn't that wasn't the thing.
[10:04] Speaker 6: Yeah, Jesse, I got no debate. I mean, you nail
[10:10] Speaker 6: everything every time. I actually, uh, I taught my my
[10:15] Speaker 6: old pastor. I give him a hard time. I text
[10:17] Speaker 6: him all these verses and the contradictions and everything, and yep,
[10:24] Speaker 6: the only response they have is you don't have the
[10:27] Speaker 6: Holy Spirit. Words aren't words what they mean? Yeah? And oh, yesterday,
[10:37] Speaker 6: I had a I have a piano teacher for my kids,
[10:40] Speaker 6: because I got six kids, and uh, they still go
[10:44] Speaker 6: to church.
[10:45] Speaker 3: My wife still goes to church, but not me. I
[10:48] Speaker 3: I'm the rebel, the heathen, uh, breakaway. And I that
[10:53] Speaker 3: piano teacher.
[10:54] Speaker 6: I was giving giving her all these talking points, and
[10:57] Speaker 6: sure enough even she was given the same answers over
[11:01] Speaker 6: and over.
[11:01] Speaker 3: And it's just I don't.
[11:04] Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, they don't have a lot of answers, Like
[11:07] Speaker 2: Christianity as a whole doesn't have a lot of anything unique.
[11:10] Speaker 2: Even if you go to like educated people like Bible professors,
[11:15] Speaker 2: they have the same old bad answers, just with a
[11:17] Speaker 2: little more sophistication. That's it.
[11:21] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[11:21] Speaker 6: And another thing that I wanted to bring up just recently,
[11:25] Speaker 6: that same pastor was, so we just we finished a
[11:28] Speaker 6: six year project church construction. Uh and I was part
[11:32] Speaker 6: of the construction everything, and I left the church and
[11:37] Speaker 6: they're going to expand and actually build a Bible school
[11:42] Speaker 6: slash building. And the pastor reached was is going to
[11:47] Speaker 6: reach out to the government to see if there's any
[11:50] Speaker 6: funding for.
[11:51] Speaker 3: That, and I'm like, I'm kind of like, I don't know,
[11:55] Speaker 3: that's just that's not right.
[11:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird that the government would you funding for
[12:01] Speaker 2: some sort of a religious project, but I'm not too shocked.
[12:05] Speaker 2: There's a church near where I am at who they
[12:10] Speaker 2: had a vision of putting together a rehab center, and
[12:14] Speaker 2: I love the fact that they're doing a rehab center.
[12:16] Speaker 2: But they were able to get government funding as well
[12:19] Speaker 2: to build it. So it's it's a difficult thing to
[12:23] Speaker 2: separate the church from the government because sometimes you know,
[12:26] Speaker 2: the government's like, well shit, this is actually a really
[12:29] Speaker 2: good idea, we just don't want to do it ourselves.
[12:34] Speaker 6: Or the you know, the congregation is not tithing enough
[12:38] Speaker 6: and right, you know, not too well.
[12:40] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I mean, I
[12:44] Speaker 3: am deconstructed. I wanted to control you, but I guess
[12:48] Speaker 3: you're pretty good at catching people good talking points.
[12:52] Speaker 2: Tim. I appreciate you sharing with us at w for deconstruction.
[12:56] Speaker 3: Praise Doug.
[12:59] Speaker 2: There's Doug. I see Ryan's with us. Good to see you, Ryan,
[13:04] Speaker 2: my friend, and also doctor Joe's with the steampunks with us.
[13:08] Speaker 2: Do golds with us? Do God? Thank you for all
[13:09] Speaker 2: the hands a handheurts. I really appreciate that.
[13:12] Speaker 1: All right, let me.
[13:13] Speaker 2: Grab I think Fenn came in here to test the
[13:16] Speaker 2: audio with us. Fenn, how you doing or Freeze? I'm
[13:18] Speaker 2: sorry I read that wrong. How you doing? Free?
[13:24] Speaker 1: Free?
[13:24] Speaker 7: Is that me?
[13:25] Speaker 8: Yeah?
[13:26] Speaker 1: How you doing?
[13:26] Speaker 9: You hear me?
[13:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, I can hear you.
[13:29] Speaker 10: Hey, hey, Yeah. I'm over eighteen and I am not
[13:34] Speaker 10: a believer. I have a couple of interesting things that
[13:40] Speaker 10: might be fun for the audience. I think I may
[13:42] Speaker 10: have found a Bible contradiction that I haven't heard addressed before.
[13:46] Speaker 10: It's not exactly a contradiction, but I think it might
[13:51] Speaker 10: suggest that the Bible is going to hell.
[13:54] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm intrigued. Tell me more.
[14:00] Speaker 4: So.
[14:00] Speaker 10: We've all heard the fool has uh set his in
[14:04] Speaker 10: his heart that there is no God.
[14:07] Speaker 5: So in a way, you could.
[14:08] Speaker 10: Say the Bible is calling the Bible is calling me
[14:11] Speaker 10: a fool. So when we combine that with the book,
[14:17] Speaker 10: I think it's in Matthew where it says whosoever shall
[14:22] Speaker 10: say that fool is in danger of health fire. Yes, man,
[14:27] Speaker 10: I think I think the Bibles going.
[14:29] Speaker 7: To hell.
[14:31] Speaker 2: Based based on the metrics that Christians have given me
[14:35] Speaker 2: for interpreting the Bible. That's one hundred percent spot on.
[14:38] Speaker 2: That matches, Yes, a million.
[14:44] Speaker 10: Actually I actually read that. I think David Mills wrote
[14:52] Speaker 10: a book called Atheist Universe, and I think that's the
[14:55] Speaker 10: first time I heard that contradiction brought up.
[14:57] Speaker 2: That's a fun one. I've never seen that before. I
[14:59] Speaker 2: never thought out of that, but that's certainly a good one.
[15:01] Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
[15:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go.
[15:05] Speaker 5: The Bible's going to hell.
[15:06] Speaker 10: And then, so I don't know how much time you
[15:08] Speaker 10: have since I'm a non believer and we're having debates.
[15:13] Speaker 10: I also have an atheist in a Foxhole story, and
[15:15] Speaker 10: I might have something I could debate you on.
[15:18] Speaker 2: Well, you can't debate me if you're already an atheist.
[15:24] Speaker 10: Yeah, not on that.
[15:24] Speaker 5: But I actually am a mythesist.
[15:26] Speaker 10: I don't think Jesus was real.
[15:28] Speaker 2: Well, sure, I mean that's the fun thing about mythicism, right,
[15:31] Speaker 2: is there's no way to prove for sure that anybody's real, Right,
[15:35] Speaker 2: Like I can't prove to you that Hippolytis is real, right.
[15:39] Speaker 2: All they can do is show you the evidence that
[15:41] Speaker 2: claims he's real.
[15:46] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[15:47] Speaker 10: So the thing about have you have you heard much
[15:50] Speaker 10: of Richard Terrier's stuff?
[15:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, I've Actually it was gifted.
[15:54] Speaker 5: I wrote the book on the history of Jesus.
[15:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gifted his book. I haven't been able
[15:59] Speaker 2: to read through it yet, but I'm sure he brings
[16:02] Speaker 2: up some interesting arguments. I haven't had time to go
[16:05] Speaker 2: through it yet.
[16:09] Speaker 10: Yeah. So I think what was interesting about because I
[16:13] Speaker 10: started studying Jesus just because in the political discussion, our
[16:18] Speaker 10: neighbors will be like, well, Jesus said this, and Jesus
[16:20] Speaker 10: said that, And so I was like, Okay, he probably existed,
[16:25] Speaker 10: but what did he say? What can we be sure
[16:27] Speaker 10: that he said? And you know, I went down the
[16:30] Speaker 10: rabbit hole and found out we can't be sure about anything.
[16:33] Speaker 10: And what was intriguing about Carrier's work is all of
[16:36] Speaker 10: the evidence, Yeah, is all of the evidence of the manufacturing.
[16:43] Speaker 10: And of course this gets into a little bit into
[16:47] Speaker 10: bart Ahrman's mis quoting Jesus, where we can see, okay,
[16:51] Speaker 10: this is manufacturing, we can tell, right, And it looks
[16:55] Speaker 10: like everything is that way. And Richard Kerry also talks
[17:00] Speaker 10: about the other apocalyptic cults he talks about Inana, the
[17:08] Speaker 10: dying and rising gods and the way it looks like
[17:13] Speaker 10: I guess the Paul if he started Christianity, and you
[17:22] Speaker 10: look only at the works that were you know, the
[17:25] Speaker 10: seventh what is it, the seven Books of Paul that
[17:29] Speaker 10: were sure came from Paul. He never mentions Jesus as
[17:34] Speaker 10: a physic. Yeah, he never mentions Jesus, you know, doing
[17:38] Speaker 10: physical stuff on earth.
[17:40] Speaker 2: Actually, I completely with that, particularly even in the Book
[17:45] Speaker 2: of Romans he says that he became he became like
[17:48] Speaker 2: us in every respect.
[17:50] Speaker 5: Right.
[17:50] Speaker 2: So I don't find these arguments to be very convincing
[17:53] Speaker 2: because I think it's like they're leaving verses out, and
[17:57] Speaker 2: if you leave verses out, you can definitely be question
[18:00] Speaker 2: in one direction. But that being said, I haven't read
[18:03] Speaker 2: his work. I can't comment on it. It's possible that
[18:06] Speaker 2: by the time I read it, I'll determine that I'm wrong,
[18:10] Speaker 2: but I don't. Yeah, I haven't read it.
[18:13] Speaker 10: Yeah, okay, well I'm looking Yeah, I'm super looking forward
[18:17] Speaker 10: to that. I want to hear that discussion because you know,
[18:20] Speaker 10: as atheists, it's six and one half what six and
[18:25] Speaker 10: one half does in the other But yeah, I have
[18:28] Speaker 10: been convinced of that, and it's pretty interesting to start
[18:31] Speaker 10: to look at this in that way.
[18:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[18:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean the minsicists and I agree that
[18:37] Speaker 2: even if Jesus was a real person. You know what
[18:39] Speaker 2: we know about him is mythology.
[18:45] Speaker 5: Yeah, yep, exactly.
[18:46] Speaker 10: So Yeah, that's that's the best I could do to
[18:50] Speaker 10: try to have an argument with you.
[18:52] Speaker 2: Right well, listen, Free, I appreciate it.
[18:55] Speaker 10: I do have an atheist.
[18:57] Speaker 2: Well I've got to I got to keep moving on.
[19:00] Speaker 2: We've got to do debates.
[19:02] Speaker 5: Yeah, fights, we're doing.
[19:04] Speaker 3: I want to.
[19:05] Speaker 10: I want to have some cooked Christians.
[19:07] Speaker 2: We're gonna do what we can right now. The Christians
[19:10] Speaker 2: on TikTok are slow to get in, but they'll fill in.
[19:13] Speaker 2: I'm sure here. I haven't seen me in a week
[19:15] Speaker 2: or so, but Free, thank you so much for being
[19:17] Speaker 2: here up until the.
[19:21] Speaker 3: Right on.
[19:22] Speaker 5: Thanks Bud, cheers.
[19:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're watching on TikTok, the guest box is open.
[19:29] Speaker 2: I haven't streamed my main account for a week or so,
[19:33] Speaker 2: but the guest boxes is up and running and as
[19:36] Speaker 2: well as the guest box on YouTube and able. Thank
[19:41] Speaker 2: you for the fin our super Chest says, Hey, what
[19:43] Speaker 2: machines to use, design or fix? I'm an engineer too.
[19:47] Speaker 2: I design machines primarily for food and pharmaceutical manufacturing, so
[19:54] Speaker 2: like high speed processing and skeptic Frog. Thank you for
[19:58] Speaker 2: the six sixty six, hill Nero says, have you read
[20:01] Speaker 2: Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Howell, And if yet, what do
[20:05] Speaker 2: you think of his idea that the Gospel was being
[20:06] Speaker 2: written by the Flavians. So I haven't actually read his book.
[20:10] Speaker 2: I have, in fact seen the documentary. I didn't find
[20:13] Speaker 2: it convincing. I found a bunch of things in it
[20:15] Speaker 2: when I was watching it that simply were either untrue,
[20:19] Speaker 2: or they're leaving information out, or they were really like
[20:23] Speaker 2: stretching certain facts to make it seem to fit. So
[20:26] Speaker 2: I didn't find the documentary to be very convincing. And
[20:30] Speaker 2: I mean I'm not alone. Most historians and theologians don't
[20:37] Speaker 2: find it to be convincing either. That's just the state
[20:41] Speaker 2: of academia. If there was a better argument, I think
[20:44] Speaker 2: academia would agree with it. Listen, liberal academia and historians
[20:52] Speaker 2: would love. We'd be chomping on the bit to have
[20:55] Speaker 2: evidence that Jesus wasn't real. It doesn't seem to exist,
[20:58] Speaker 2: you know what I mean. All you can do is say, well,
[21:01] Speaker 2: there's no definitive proof that he was real, But we
[21:04] Speaker 2: can say that about anybody from history. G L, thank
[21:07] Speaker 2: you so much. For the twenty hour Superchat big w.
[21:09] Speaker 2: He says, thanks for all the content, Justin, I was
[21:13] Speaker 2: away for a few months and it's nice to catch up. Well, Gel,
[21:16] Speaker 2: thank you so much for catching up on the content,
[21:19] Speaker 2: and thank you so much for support in the channel.
[21:23] Speaker 2: And kay in two thousand, thank you for the six
[21:25] Speaker 2: sixty six hail Nero says a question if Mary and
[21:28] Speaker 2: Joseph were married, wasn't the tradition to consummate the marriage
[21:31] Speaker 2: at the ceremony? Were there rules about it? There were
[21:36] Speaker 2: rules about this. You can read. You can read about
[21:40] Speaker 2: this some of the rules in the Talmud in ket
[21:44] Speaker 2: to Vote, you'll find different rules and regulations for the
[21:49] Speaker 2: marriage and whatnot. But Matthew tells us and show the
[21:54] Speaker 2: chapter two or three. Two tells us that Joseph and Mary,
[22:02] Speaker 2: you know, consummated their their marriage. I'll grab you the
[22:05] Speaker 2: verse real quick. Hold on if I'm pretty sure my
[22:10] Speaker 2: memory serves me correctly. It's Matthew that has the quotation
[22:14] Speaker 2: I'm looking for.
[22:20] Speaker 11: Bah blah blah blah. Let's see.
[22:38] Speaker 2: Matthew one twenty five. I was thinking Matthew two was
[22:44] Speaker 2: going to have it. The ending of Matthew number one,
[22:47] Speaker 2: which makes sense, all right, So it says here, uh they,
[22:58] Speaker 2: but they is implied because of the verse verse twenty four.
[23:01] Speaker 2: Let me put twenty four up there. There you go.
[23:05] Speaker 2: When Joseph awoke from his sleep, he did as the
[23:07] Speaker 2: angel the Lord commanded him. He took her as his wife,
[23:11] Speaker 2: but had no marital relations with her until she had
[23:15] Speaker 2: given birth to a son, and he named them Jesus. So,
[23:18] Speaker 2: I mean, obviously this is suggesting that they didn't have
[23:21] Speaker 2: any marital relations until after Jesus was born, which makes sense,
[23:27] Speaker 2: but it also obviously explicitly states that they did have
[23:33] Speaker 2: marital relations and when when they had marital relations. It
[23:37] Speaker 2: gives you a verb and a time period. Also, Thanker,
[23:42] Speaker 2: thank you for the find our supertest says, what does
[23:44] Speaker 2: a robot do after a one night stand? He nuts
[23:47] Speaker 2: in him bolts shit. I can like literally, I've been
[23:54] Speaker 2: designing machines and working with robots for over twenty years
[23:59] Speaker 2: and I cannot believe I've never heard that joke. That
[24:02] Speaker 2: is amazing. That is a top tier joke. And Ashley,
[24:07] Speaker 2: thank you for the ten hour superchat says, please help
[24:09] Speaker 2: destroy the myth that the Jesus character was peaceful. Well, yeah,
[24:14] Speaker 2: I mean, he had a lot of things to say.
[24:16] Speaker 1: Shit.
[24:16] Speaker 2: In Matthew or Luke, chapter nineteen, at the end of
[24:20] Speaker 2: the parable, talking about a second coming, he says, these
[24:23] Speaker 2: people who did not want me to be king over them,
[24:25] Speaker 2: bring them before me and slaughter them in my very presence.
[24:28] Speaker 2: Didn't sound very loving. And the idea that he's sending
[24:31] Speaker 2: anyone to hell for believing something is ridiculous. Connor, thank
[24:36] Speaker 2: you for gifting out a dezy membership. I appreciate that.
[24:39] Speaker 2: And Johannah, thank you so so much for the super chat.
[24:43] Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Says Joke. On a ship, there are
[24:45] Speaker 2: twenty boys, a convict, and a priest. The captain says
[24:49] Speaker 2: to the convict, ship is thinking, get the boys and
[24:52] Speaker 2: bring them up on the deck. The priest says to
[24:54] Speaker 2: the convict, you think we have time? That sounds about right.
[25:02] Speaker 2: That sounds about right. Listen, I mean, that's what they do.
[25:09] Speaker 2: It wouldn't be funny if it wasn't true. That's why
[25:12] Speaker 2: it's funny, because it's true. It's also tragic. Adele, good
[25:16] Speaker 2: to see you tonight, friend, Thank you so much for
[25:17] Speaker 2: the super chat. And it says, glad you made it
[25:19] Speaker 2: home safely, happy, cooking. Well, thank you so much, Adele,
[25:22] Speaker 2: and thank you for watching and support in the channel
[25:26] Speaker 2: and also Larry gifting out five DZ memberships. Big big
[25:30] Speaker 2: w Larry. I super appreciate the support and for sending
[25:34] Speaker 2: out five new memberships. All right, let's get our next quest.
[25:38] Speaker 2: And how are you doing?
[25:38] Speaker 5: KP?
[25:40] Speaker 7: Hey, I'm going How do I mute this? Am I muting?
[25:43] Speaker 2: You ain't mute?
[25:44] Speaker 1: Or no?
[25:45] Speaker 7: Okay, okay?
[25:47] Speaker 1: How you doing?
[25:47] Speaker 7: I've been watching a lot.
[25:50] Speaker 2: Well, welcome in KP. Are you at least eighteen? And
[25:54] Speaker 2: are you a believer?
[25:57] Speaker 7: I am over eighteen? I can't.
[26:00] Speaker 12: That's the far belief in a higher power, but not
[26:04] Speaker 12: the want that people speak of.
[26:06] Speaker 2: Fair enough, which kind of high.
[26:13] Speaker 12: It is crazy to say to me, it's crazy to
[26:15] Speaker 12: say that is impossible that there.
[26:17] Speaker 7: Could be a creator, we could be the star, we
[26:19] Speaker 7: could be the second, you know. And to me, to
[26:23] Speaker 7: justify belief it is to say, what if this is
[26:26] Speaker 7: the sorting senter? You know?
[26:28] Speaker 12: And that could be derived from just the talks of religion.
[26:33] Speaker 12: But my question, I'd have a question for you how
[26:37] Speaker 12: their religion answer into the human word.
[26:40] Speaker 2: Well, my understanding of the history of religion is it
[26:43] Speaker 2: started out as an explanation for the phenomenon that people
[26:47] Speaker 2: didn't understand. So like the sun and the sky, or
[26:50] Speaker 2: why storms happen or why the sea gets angry. They
[26:55] Speaker 2: had to come up with explanations. And they didn't initially
[26:57] Speaker 2: like think of these physical phenomenon, these natural phenomenon as gods.
[27:03] Speaker 2: They were just like a natural part of the world.
[27:06] Speaker 2: It wasn't until much later that people started to develop
[27:10] Speaker 2: this notion of what a god would be and started
[27:13] Speaker 2: to give it. You know, give these individuals, if you
[27:17] Speaker 2: would call them such, give these characters status that we
[27:22] Speaker 2: might say, oh, that sounds like a god.
[27:26] Speaker 1: Okay.
[27:26] Speaker 7: As we've become more educated, we leave a little bit
[27:28] Speaker 7: away from that belief.
[27:30] Speaker 12: Because that's where my biggest only reason I say I
[27:33] Speaker 12: can believe is because where did it come from? But
[27:38] Speaker 12: when we talk about what people believe, I don't believe
[27:41] Speaker 12: that there's a Christian who really believes in God because
[27:43] Speaker 12: they don't live from the way that they teach from
[27:45] Speaker 12: the book. They go against their own book and most
[27:48] Speaker 12: religious and then a lot of it it seems like
[27:51] Speaker 12: it's to justify what a man will want and not what.
[27:54] Speaker 1: A god who want.
[27:55] Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree, but what are we wrong?
[27:58] Speaker 7: But what if we're wrong?
[27:59] Speaker 12: And this is just to test the count of human
[28:01] Speaker 12: being you are to see if you're allowed to make
[28:03] Speaker 12: it to the next level, which they call heaven, or
[28:06] Speaker 12: if you're rejected and go to what they call him
[28:08] Speaker 12: you know, yeah, because other than that is like, what's
[28:13] Speaker 12: the purpose?
[28:15] Speaker 8: Right? Yeah?
[28:16] Speaker 2: I mean, I think the proof that these people don't
[28:20] Speaker 2: really believe in their religion is that they're all terrified
[28:24] Speaker 2: of dying. If you truly believed that you were going
[28:27] Speaker 2: to live forever, you shouldn't be scared of dying.
[28:33] Speaker 7: Even with the dying thing, Like when you hear people
[28:35] Speaker 7: say life has no meaning if you don't die, But
[28:40] Speaker 7: would they have more meaning if you didn't die you
[28:42] Speaker 7: have more time to do things.
[28:44] Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's hard to say. I mean, if,
[28:47] Speaker 2: for example, if you have endless money, then money starts
[28:52] Speaker 2: to be somewhat meaningless to you because you have an
[28:55] Speaker 2: infinite amount of it. Whereas when you say, you know,
[28:59] Speaker 2: when you have ten dis dollars to your name and
[29:01] Speaker 2: you're about to be you know, you pay rent in
[29:03] Speaker 2: a week, money is incredibly fucking important. You're like looking
[29:07] Speaker 2: at every single penny. So I think that the more
[29:11] Speaker 2: rare something is, the more we tend to devalue it,
[29:15] Speaker 2: you know.
[29:16] Speaker 12: Okay, So with that, right, I'm gonna say, well, my
[29:18] Speaker 12: mind is lost to me. An infinite amount of money
[29:22] Speaker 12: would just mean that you could truly enjoy life.
[29:27] Speaker 7: Money would mean the most.
[29:28] Speaker 12: To you because that's the only thing you can use
[29:31] Speaker 12: to get where you're going or what you're doing. Because
[29:34] Speaker 12: with no money, to say, if I only had ten dollars,
[29:36] Speaker 12: I'm only stuck to where I live.
[29:37] Speaker 2: I can never leave this place, right, I guess it
[29:41] Speaker 2: depends on personality a little bit. Like so for me,
[29:45] Speaker 2: like if I had endless money, I would treat it
[29:47] Speaker 2: like it was expendable, you know what I mean. I
[29:50] Speaker 2: would treat it like toletpaper.
[29:53] Speaker 7: You'll do what you wanted to do and what you love. Right.
[29:56] Speaker 2: No, I'm saying I would waste a lot of it,
[29:59] Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. I'm talking about my treatment of
[30:02] Speaker 2: the actual money. Like if I had endless money, I
[30:04] Speaker 2: would be treating it like it didn't have a lot
[30:07] Speaker 2: of value because to me, it wouldn't have any value.
[30:10] Speaker 2: I have endless amounts of it, right, Just like but
[30:14] Speaker 2: when when you have limited time or limited anything. Well,
[30:18] Speaker 2: now you're you're counting every minute or you're counting every cent,
[30:22] Speaker 2: because you're like, listen, it's very limited. I can't just
[30:24] Speaker 2: be giving it away willy nilly.
[30:26] Speaker 12: I guess I'll look at it different because to me,
[30:28] Speaker 12: as if I have a little bit of time, I'm
[30:30] Speaker 12: not even to do anything with the time, I'm just
[30:32] Speaker 12: taking away.
[30:32] Speaker 1: For it to be over.
[30:33] Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I think you and I might have different
[30:36] Speaker 2: perspectives on this particular topic.
[30:39] Speaker 7: Yeah, especially when you said with the money.
[30:41] Speaker 12: To me, yes, I would not value money, but I
[30:46] Speaker 12: would definitely utilize the most of it. You know, if
[30:49] Speaker 12: there was a woman I wanted, that means money have
[30:52] Speaker 12: of value? Is a million I was spend a month
[30:55] Speaker 12: with me, you know.
[30:56] Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like that.
[30:59] Speaker 12: That's why I'm to me, if I mean we didn't die,
[31:01] Speaker 12: it life would be better. But what if we are
[31:05] Speaker 12: wrong because we're fighting about people? Because I mean I
[31:09] Speaker 12: just discovered you probably like a week ago. I mean,
[31:11] Speaker 12: I'll watched all your lives.
[31:12] Speaker 7: I've been watching these videos.
[31:13] Speaker 12: I'm watching you to big with these people, and I
[31:15] Speaker 12: see them, you know, they try to bend themselves to
[31:18] Speaker 12: make the bible that they chose to believe real. But
[31:22] Speaker 12: it's just like, what if we're wasting time arguing about
[31:25] Speaker 12: the wrong things. Because to me, like, no matter how
[31:29] Speaker 12: you live, if you live in your mind to be
[31:31] Speaker 12: what you think is the right thing to do.
[31:33] Speaker 7: Even if I.
[31:34] Speaker 12: Don't believe in God, and there is a God, I'm
[31:37] Speaker 12: gonna be welcomed. But if it's the God that they
[31:40] Speaker 12: talk about, I wouldn't want to go there. You know,
[31:43] Speaker 12: all powerful god who allowed children to be hurt and rape.
[31:47] Speaker 7: That makes no sense.
[31:48] Speaker 2: So I mean we agree on that. We agree that
[31:51] Speaker 2: any any god that causes atrocities to happen or sends
[31:56] Speaker 2: people to eternal fiery torment is not really a god
[32:00] Speaker 2: that is a sensible deity. But let me ask you
[32:03] Speaker 2: a question, because like in your world view, the God
[32:05] Speaker 2: that you believe in theoretically created the planet, right.
[32:10] Speaker 7: Well, what if it's not an actual person, a thinking.
[32:14] Speaker 2: Entity, but a higher like a force.
[32:18] Speaker 12: Yeah, honestly, I tell people this, right when I have
[32:21] Speaker 12: this god to make with a lot of people, I
[32:23] Speaker 12: tell them that I am God, you know. And I said,
[32:26] Speaker 12: and I'm gonna say this is how I did. I kept
[32:28] Speaker 12: asking myself what was day one?
[32:31] Speaker 7: And I created a time machine. I took this time
[32:34] Speaker 7: machine back.
[32:35] Speaker 12: To day one, which created what you call the big
[32:37] Speaker 12: bang that created the world.
[32:40] Speaker 7: So now we asked our said, did I create the
[32:41] Speaker 7: world that did the work create me?
[32:43] Speaker 12: Or did we trade each other to create each other?
[32:44] Speaker 12: That's how in the beginning in the end, creating a cycle.
[32:47] Speaker 12: So I said, you see how your beliefs are kind
[32:49] Speaker 12: of like it's questionable. It's so much that can happen,
[32:52] Speaker 12: you know, but to deny something.
[32:55] Speaker 2: So like, if if the God you believe in isn't
[32:57] Speaker 2: like a thinking agent that's like making decisions and doing things,
[33:02] Speaker 2: then I think you and I just might have different
[33:04] Speaker 2: definitions of God, right, because at that point, God is
[33:07] Speaker 2: just like a natural force.
[33:10] Speaker 12: Which is no God at all. Exactly what if it
[33:15] Speaker 12: is a thinking agent? He says, I never chose intervening.
[33:19] Speaker 12: You all had to make it through this stage on your.
[33:21] Speaker 2: Own, right, Yeah, So essentially what you're describing is like
[33:26] Speaker 2: a more of a deistic God that's just hands off.
[33:31] Speaker 2: But I asked the question about whether or not God
[33:34] Speaker 2: created the earth, because if God is a thinking agent
[33:37] Speaker 2: and he did create the earth the way that the
[33:39] Speaker 2: earth operates, then I would assume that this God is
[33:43] Speaker 2: either evil or he doesn't exist, because no God would
[33:47] Speaker 2: make like would you build a house and then like
[33:50] Speaker 2: randomly design the house so that I don't know, once
[33:53] Speaker 2: a month, like the ceiling fan would just drop on
[33:56] Speaker 2: somebody and hurt them.
[33:58] Speaker 7: Like nah, because that kind of reaches on to like
[34:02] Speaker 7: good requires.
[34:03] Speaker 2: Evil, But why I don't think it does.
[34:07] Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't either, because I tell people all the time.
[34:09] Speaker 12: Do you go in the room and kick your kids
[34:11] Speaker 12: so they can remember the two good parents?
[34:13] Speaker 2: A million percent? Yes? Exactly. You You never once had
[34:16] Speaker 2: to harm your kid for them to know that you're
[34:19] Speaker 2: a good parent.
[34:20] Speaker 12: Yeah, do you need to show them bad parents? Like
[34:24] Speaker 12: do you need to show them? Kids with bad parents
[34:26] Speaker 12: would just say, hey, look how worse I could be
[34:28] Speaker 12: you Because it's like when you want that child to
[34:30] Speaker 12: have a good.
[34:30] Speaker 7: Parent too, is that really necessary to make your kid
[34:34] Speaker 7: a good person?
[34:34] Speaker 5: Yeah, they'll be good if there.
[34:36] Speaker 7: Was no bad. Yeah.
[34:38] Speaker 12: So, like I've been watching this and I'm just like,
[34:40] Speaker 12: this is one of the biggest debates that we have
[34:42] Speaker 12: as main con which could honestly be Like you said
[34:45] Speaker 12: in the beginning that the only question we had to
[34:48] Speaker 12: ask first was while we're here, and how do we
[34:49] Speaker 12: get here, which were a creative every first story told,
[34:52] Speaker 12: which would be the greatest story told? Which is the Bible?
[34:55] Speaker 12: You know, And that's why they refuse to let it go.
[34:57] Speaker 12: It's like the same way when people fight over Harry Potter, right,
[35:00] Speaker 12: you know, It's just like, you know, this happened in
[35:02] Speaker 12: the book. And I really take the difference between the
[35:04] Speaker 12: Bible and Harry Potter.
[35:05] Speaker 7: We know who wrote Harry.
[35:06] Speaker 2: Park right, Yeah. Yeah, Well listen, KP. It sounds like
[35:10] Speaker 2: we actually agree on more than we disagree on. I'm
[35:13] Speaker 2: gonna know how the.
[35:15] Speaker 12: Religion hit it to the world, because I don't know
[35:18] Speaker 12: my journey to say which way should I sway? But
[35:22] Speaker 12: the only thing I cannot figure out is how and
[35:25] Speaker 12: why it entered the world, you.
[35:27] Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, I mean there have been some books on
[35:29] Speaker 2: the topic. If you find me on the discord, shoot
[35:32] Speaker 2: me a d M. I can send you some resources,
[35:35] Speaker 2: some academic literature on it.
[35:38] Speaker 12: Okay, I don't know what the discord is, but I
[35:40] Speaker 12: trying to figure that out. I saw your lingually on YouTube.
[35:44] Speaker 12: I saw you in the short and I started subscribing
[35:46] Speaker 12: and watching and I just really had to get there there.
[35:48] Speaker 12: I'm like, what wrong religion into the world because if
[35:52] Speaker 12: it was just if you can explain how it came
[35:55] Speaker 12: into the world, that to say, if God really is real,
[35:58] Speaker 12: if you put it on the hearts and the mind
[36:00] Speaker 12: to spread the message. But you do make more sense that.
[36:03] Speaker 12: I mean, what other question would I ask other than
[36:05] Speaker 12: how did I.
[36:05] Speaker 7: Get into this room?
[36:07] Speaker 5: Right?
[36:08] Speaker 7: I mean, yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate you. You do.
[36:11] Speaker 7: You did help me a lot because I mean that
[36:12] Speaker 7: was my biggest question. You've seen very knowledgeable. I've seen
[36:15] Speaker 7: all the debates. You know everything. I mean, not when
[36:17] Speaker 7: you got it. You know when they bring the things up.
[36:20] Speaker 7: You know exactly where to go to the reason. I'm like,
[36:21] Speaker 7: you will be the one to tell me how to
[36:23] Speaker 7: the answer into the world. But I mean, like I said,
[36:25] Speaker 7: it makes it makes a lot of sense.
[36:27] Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, KP. It is a great talking tale. I'll
[36:30] Speaker 2: see you again.
[36:31] Speaker 7: I'm gonna keep watching. I'm not letting go. I'm keep watching.
[36:33] Speaker 5: Appreciation tears.
[36:37] Speaker 2: W KP. Nice guy, All right, let me grab a
[36:41] Speaker 2: couple of super chests. We got our next guest coming
[36:43] Speaker 2: in and do Gauld's coming to join us. How you doing.
[36:46] Speaker 1: Good, buddy?
[36:48] Speaker 2: How are you doing good? What's in your mind?
[36:51] Speaker 13: Buddy.
[36:52] Speaker 14: I actually just came up to do a small model
[36:54] Speaker 14: announcement for you because you're like some shares on the
[36:57] Speaker 14: TikTok side are awful though for having three or fifty
[37:00] Speaker 14: people in it.
[37:01] Speaker 1: Oh no, and I don't appreciate it.
[37:03] Speaker 14: So I'm going to need for you out to tap
[37:04] Speaker 14: and share because Justin should have way more than fifty
[37:06] Speaker 14: four shares and way more than twenty four.
[37:09] Speaker 1: Twenty five thousand likes.
[37:11] Speaker 9: Let's work on that, guys.
[37:13] Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you do goal. Although, guys, if you're
[37:15] Speaker 2: not following Dogold yet on TikTok, please do. He's a
[37:18] Speaker 2: great friend of mine and he does live streams as well,
[37:21] Speaker 2: so if you're looking for more live stream content, definitely
[37:24] Speaker 2: drop do Goald to follow him.
[37:26] Speaker 14: I appreciate you, Justin.
[37:27] Speaker 9: I just want in the mind for you.
[37:29] Speaker 2: Cheers, brother, Thank you so much. All right, let me
[37:35] Speaker 2: grab a real quick ore. I got I think two
[37:39] Speaker 2: super chats three too pertest, and we'll get our next
[37:41] Speaker 2: guest in here. F dot. Good to hear from your buddies.
[37:46] Speaker 2: Thank you for the super tests. How's the book coming along?
[37:48] Speaker 2: Can't wait for that? It's I'm past halfway finished with
[37:51] Speaker 2: it now, thank goodness. But work has been kicking my
[37:55] Speaker 2: rump the last like two maybe three months, so I'm
[37:59] Speaker 2: kind of stalled out. But I should be ready to
[38:02] Speaker 2: work on it again here in like another week or two.
[38:05] Speaker 2: Radical Dreamers, thank you for the supertest, says do you
[38:07] Speaker 2: think Jesus could have exposed been exposed to Greek texts
[38:11] Speaker 2: from Septuagen? Do you think he could have spoken some Greek? Well? Radical,
[38:15] Speaker 2: I mean, I personally think that the only thing if
[38:18] Speaker 2: Jesus was reading was the Greek septuagen. If you look
[38:21] Speaker 2: at the words of Jesus, what he quotes in the
[38:23] Speaker 2: New Testament, it's always from the Greek septuagen. I can't
[38:26] Speaker 2: think of a single time where Jesus actually quotes from
[38:28] Speaker 2: the Hebrew text. Or it's more likely that we have
[38:32] Speaker 2: no idea what Jesus ever said, and these are people
[38:34] Speaker 2: putting words in Jesus's mouth. That's what I've that's personally
[38:38] Speaker 2: what I think. I don't think he said the shit
[38:40] Speaker 2: that he said in the Bible. It was the cool.
[38:42] Speaker 2: Thank you for the supertest, says Cthulhu is Lord and
[38:46] Speaker 2: I'm with you one hundred percent. And him in with
[38:49] Speaker 2: us tonight. Good to see him and thank you for
[38:51] Speaker 2: the not duper Jet says, just in general, how do
[38:54] Speaker 2: creation has explain human diversity in just four thy five
[38:58] Speaker 2: hundred years Tower of Babylon. There are Europeans with white
[39:01] Speaker 2: skin or any human ethnic features for that matter. So
[39:04] Speaker 2: this always dovetails into a conversation about evolution in reality,
[39:12] Speaker 2: what they're just going to say is, well, I believe
[39:14] Speaker 2: in macro evolution or micro evolution, but not macro evolution.
[39:18] Speaker 1: Right.
[39:18] Speaker 2: They believe in, you know, the power to make small changes,
[39:22] Speaker 2: but you know, obviously not large changes because they fundamentally
[39:26] Speaker 2: don't understand what evolution is. Evolution is many, many thousands
[39:32] Speaker 2: of years of small changes, and when you stack small
[39:35] Speaker 2: change on top of small change, and onstop of on
[39:38] Speaker 2: top of another small change, you get radically different creatures
[39:43] Speaker 2: and make the best Thank you for the FindOut of
[39:45] Speaker 2: supertest says what's the proper Judeo Christian punishment for mixing
[39:49] Speaker 2: fabrics lashes eternal health fire? Well, we're not entirely told. Actually,
[39:56] Speaker 2: if I had to guess, it just makes you unclean.
[39:58] Speaker 2: You probably have to do your perification ritual and then
[40:01] Speaker 2: segregate yourself for seven days. That's likely the case, but
[40:06] Speaker 2: I actually would have to verify that. That's a good question, though,
[40:09] Speaker 2: very good question. And No Cosey thank you for the supertest, says,
[40:15] Speaker 2: if Jesus was a real person, he's the God of
[40:17] Speaker 2: the Christians, therefore not imaginary and atheist. Proved you wrong. Well, no,
[40:22] Speaker 2: you're wrong because we're not talking about whether or not
[40:27] Speaker 2: someone believes he's a god. We're talking about whether or
[40:29] Speaker 2: not he really is a god. So just existing in
[40:33] Speaker 2: her life doesn't make you a god. I could say
[40:34] Speaker 2: that I'm a god, I could say shit that people
[40:37] Speaker 2: believe I'm a god, and it still wouldn't make me god.
[40:39] Speaker 2: So I'm you should try hard into cozy. That was pathetic.
[40:43] Speaker 2: Jam and Jay thank you for the supertests. His greatest
[40:45] Speaker 2: story ever told is Firefly fight me. I've never don't.
[40:50] Speaker 2: I've never seen nor heard of firefly. I can't. I
[40:52] Speaker 2: can't add to the conversation. And a last one from
[40:56] Speaker 2: our friend Jake Knapp could to see it tonight, Jake,
[40:59] Speaker 2: I thank you for the six one six. Hail Nero says,
[41:01] Speaker 2: why don't Baptists have sex? Standing up?
[41:04] Speaker 1: Oh?
[41:04] Speaker 2: This should be fun because God might think they're dancing. Yeah,
[41:09] Speaker 2: I've heard that a few times. That's a really good one. Yes,
[41:13] Speaker 2: Or when I was a younger, we would say because
[41:15] Speaker 2: it leads to dancing. Such a good joke, though always
[41:19] Speaker 2: always a banger of a joke. See what I did there?
[41:23] Speaker 2: See what? Anyways, let me get our next guest. Thank
[41:26] Speaker 2: you guys for the super chests. We got Mike with
[41:29] Speaker 2: us now I do and Mike, although, Mike, are you
[41:33] Speaker 2: sharing a YouTube video? What's happening right now? My well,
[41:41] Speaker 2: Mike was, Mike was here by by accident, apparently had
[41:47] Speaker 2: to go, had to go. All right, we'll get We
[41:49] Speaker 2: got some guests on TikTok Let me switch over to
[41:52] Speaker 2: the TikTok Q and we'll get them pulled in aar.
[41:55] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the ten dollars super chat.
[41:57] Speaker 2: I appreciate that. AA says if the widows might teach
[42:01] Speaker 2: us that gift from the poor are worth more than
[42:04] Speaker 2: the rich, wouldn't that entail that gifts sacrifice from finite
[42:07] Speaker 2: beings would be worth more than anything from an infinite
[42:11] Speaker 2: being and air that logic checks out. Actually, if you're
[42:15] Speaker 2: giving and you have less, that means what you're giving
[42:18] Speaker 2: is obviously of higher value to you, which that being said,
[42:23] Speaker 2: I think that reinforces the conversation we were having earlier,
[42:25] Speaker 2: which is that you know and to your point, all
[42:29] Speaker 2: the gifts from God are roughly meaningless, especially when he
[42:34] Speaker 2: has unlimited funds and whatnot. Good point though, he I
[42:39] Speaker 2: appreciate that. All right, So we've got let me grab
[42:43] Speaker 2: our guest. It looks like only me or only me
[42:50] Speaker 2: cany sir? How you doing doing good? Thank you for
[42:53] Speaker 2: asking only me? Are you at least eighteen? And are
[42:56] Speaker 2: you believer in.
[42:58] Speaker 4: H?
[42:58] Speaker 7: Yeah?
[42:59] Speaker 15: I am over eighteen. But so I do have a
[43:02] Speaker 15: simple question.
[43:03] Speaker 16: Do you do you believe in any type of God? So,
[43:10] Speaker 16: so my question is how how did we human beings
[43:14] Speaker 16: came on this planet?
[43:16] Speaker 15: The planet? Is that?
[43:17] Speaker 2: We call it evolution?
[43:23] Speaker 15: Uh? Can you?
[43:24] Speaker 16: Can you kind of like emphasize on that a little
[43:26] Speaker 16: bit for me? So we just pretty much everybody just
[43:28] Speaker 16: came from nowhere. Because the reason why I'm asking.
[43:32] Speaker 2: From nowhere evolution is the process of like the the
[43:36] Speaker 2: physical stuff here on the planet evolving into complex stuff.
[43:44] Speaker 16: Okay, because the reason why I'm asking that is for
[43:48] Speaker 16: for a couple of weeks now, I've been asking.
[43:51] Speaker 15: Myself, where's Where's God?
[43:53] Speaker 16: Like, you know, I grew up in churching on you know,
[43:55] Speaker 16: my parents, you know, it took me to church, and
[43:58] Speaker 16: so that's kind of what I've been believing. But I'm
[44:01] Speaker 16: starting to kind of like question that, Like I'm asking myself,
[44:05] Speaker 16: why is you know, if this God is a good God,
[44:07] Speaker 16: that he loves his people, why is it all kinds
[44:10] Speaker 16: of So I'm beginning to kind of like ask why
[44:14] Speaker 16: like this the wise so I don't know, Like so,
[44:18] Speaker 16: so my question is like.
[44:21] Speaker 15: The God, why is it too many?
[44:24] Speaker 16: Like so we have the Muslims, we have Christians, we
[44:26] Speaker 16: have why is it too many religions?
[44:29] Speaker 7: Like?
[44:29] Speaker 16: But it's still there's one God that we all believe in.
[44:32] Speaker 16: I mean, because I'm make sense.
[44:35] Speaker 2: I mean, the Hindus don't believe in one God. There's
[44:37] Speaker 2: a lot of cultures that don't believe in one God.
[44:39] Speaker 2: And of course the Buddhists don't really believe in a
[44:40] Speaker 2: creator God. They just believe in like mysticism, you know,
[44:44] Speaker 2: they believe in like spirits but not necessarily deities. So
[44:49] Speaker 2: I think there's a pretty diverse there's a pretty diverse
[44:53] Speaker 2: way of thinking out there. I think we're only exposed
[44:57] Speaker 2: to one type though where we of Okay.
[45:02] Speaker 16: Okay, so so pretty much just so from from your perspective,
[45:07] Speaker 16: just leave without believing in anything.
[45:09] Speaker 15: Just pretty much just leave your life. Is that is
[45:11] Speaker 15: that your your thought process?
[45:14] Speaker 2: It's not even close. No, My thought process is to
[45:16] Speaker 2: believe in things that are that are true. Try to
[45:19] Speaker 2: believe in as many true things and as few false
[45:22] Speaker 2: things as possible.
[45:23] Speaker 1: That's it.
[45:25] Speaker 16: So like, so so what do you what do you
[45:26] Speaker 16: mean by believing you know true things? Like you're talking about, like, like,
[45:31] Speaker 16: can you give you an example?
[45:32] Speaker 15: Just maybe one?
[45:33] Speaker 4: Is it?
[45:33] Speaker 2: The true thing is something that is in accordance with reality.
[45:36] Speaker 2: So for example, if I said, I want to believe
[45:40] Speaker 2: that you know, the speed limit is safest set at
[45:44] Speaker 2: fifty five miles an hour, then I could set out
[45:47] Speaker 2: to look at the data to see if that's the
[45:49] Speaker 2: safest speed limit. I'm believing something that you know, we
[45:52] Speaker 2: could demonstrate to either be true or false. So like,
[45:55] Speaker 2: wanting to believe true things I think lead society in
[45:59] Speaker 2: a better direction. And gotcha, gotcha?
[46:04] Speaker 16: So like my last question, so, so with Jesus being
[46:08] Speaker 16: born by a vegind Mary, you don't you don't believe
[46:11] Speaker 16: that theory?
[46:12] Speaker 15: Do you?
[46:13] Speaker 2: Not even close.
[46:14] Speaker 15: No, gotcha, because you probably were not there. You didn't see,
[46:18] Speaker 15: I mean, nobody.
[46:18] Speaker 2: Saw no whatever. Not Why.
[46:22] Speaker 15: Okay, so what why don't you believe in that? I'm
[46:24] Speaker 15: just curious?
[46:24] Speaker 2: Just last question, because nobody's ever witnessed a case of
[46:28] Speaker 2: a god knocking up a young woman. In order to
[46:33] Speaker 2: make such an outlandish claim, you would need extraordinary evidence.
[46:37] Speaker 2: So we don't have anything close to extraordinary evidence, gotcha. Right, So,
[46:42] Speaker 2: just based on going you know, on the what four
[46:45] Speaker 2: thousand years of recorded history that we have, if this
[46:49] Speaker 2: was something that could happen, I would expect that it
[46:52] Speaker 2: would happen more than once. Just based on the numbers,
[46:55] Speaker 2: it's unlikely that it actually happened, and much more likely
[46:58] Speaker 2: that it's mythology. Being we've got tons of resurrection and
[47:03] Speaker 2: denbi god narratives out there, Jesus is hardly the only one.
[47:08] Speaker 15: Gotcha. Okay, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.
[47:11] Speaker 2: I'm good to hear from you. Only you, sir, asking
[47:19] Speaker 2: questions good? Asking questions is good. I'm glad he's asking
[47:23] Speaker 2: the questions. Tally. Good to see you tonight. Thank you
[47:26] Speaker 2: so much for the nineteen ninety nine Tally says, watching
[47:29] Speaker 2: from thirty thousand feet tonight. Thanks Justin. Sounds like you're
[47:34] Speaker 2: in the air today as well.
[47:36] Speaker 5: Well.
[47:36] Speaker 2: I appreciate you being here, Tally and Big big W
[47:39] Speaker 2: for supporting the channel and for liking and sharing and watching,
[47:43] Speaker 2: and please travel safely. Also, Team ask says you're writing
[47:47] Speaker 2: a book. What's it called. I can't tell you what
[47:48] Speaker 2: it's called, but I already I've had the title picked
[47:51] Speaker 2: for quite some time. You'll know soon, you'll know Zoon
[47:54] Speaker 2: and fierce interaction Big W with the twenty dollars super chat.
[47:58] Speaker 2: I appreciate that, says Glad to catch you alive, praying to
[48:01] Speaker 2: the Christian God for some grilling tonight, guaranteeing me a
[48:05] Speaker 2: fifty to fifty chance of happening. Question my holy calculation
[48:10] Speaker 2: at your own barrel. Well, listen, I think your calculation
[48:13] Speaker 2: is actually most likely to be correct. I don't see
[48:16] Speaker 2: why that would be incorrect. That seems like it's actually
[48:21] Speaker 2: greater than a fifty to fifty. All right, let me
[48:24] Speaker 2: get our next guest in here. Blond, thank you so
[48:28] Speaker 2: much for the super Chaplin says, it's so funny how
[48:30] Speaker 2: THEEUS preach in the YouTube chat. But then asked to call,
[48:34] Speaker 2: they run away crying with tailspeed in your life. It's
[48:38] Speaker 2: pretty typical, as they always say, A lion in the comments,
[48:41] Speaker 2: a lamb in the box. That seems to be the
[48:44] Speaker 2: way things go. But we got a new guest with us.
[48:47] Speaker 2: Now looks like Benjamin.
[48:48] Speaker 5: You Benjamin, I'm doing well?
[48:51] Speaker 2: Are you doing good? Thanks for asking? Benjamin? Are you
[48:53] Speaker 2: at least eighteen? And are you believer in?
[48:56] Speaker 1: Yes?
[48:56] Speaker 3: Sir?
[48:57] Speaker 2: The mouth cool? And what'd be the most convincing answer
[49:00] Speaker 2: argument for the Christian God being real?
[49:06] Speaker 5: One singular thing or my I mean, you can.
[49:10] Speaker 2: Do multiples, but we can only really address one at
[49:13] Speaker 2: a time, I would imagine.
[49:15] Speaker 5: Okay, I would say, what convinced me to give up
[49:20] Speaker 5: atheism and go towards Christianity was twofold, the historicity of
[49:26] Speaker 5: the Bible, and two the stance of objective morality having
[49:33] Speaker 5: to exist.
[49:34] Speaker 2: Sure, well, which which one do you like to attack first?
[49:39] Speaker 5: I'm good to talk about either, whichever one you want
[49:42] Speaker 5: to start with.
[49:43] Speaker 2: Okay, So, what about the historicity of the Bible proves
[49:46] Speaker 2: that it's God is real?
[49:49] Speaker 5: It doesn't, it's it doesn't back up the truth claims
[49:53] Speaker 5: of you know, Christ being God. But if we can
[49:57] Speaker 5: verify that you all of the names are time period accurate,
[50:02] Speaker 5: which would be very difficult to do well, that they're
[50:06] Speaker 5: which ones are not.
[50:07] Speaker 2: There's a bunch of names in the Bible that the
[50:09] Speaker 2: timelines are off. The Pharaoh of the Exodus is off
[50:13] Speaker 2: by about two hundred years. Jesus' birth is off by
[50:16] Speaker 2: like ten different years. The length of the Exodus is
[50:22] Speaker 2: either four hundred years or four hundred and thirty years
[50:25] Speaker 2: or two hundred and twelve years, depending on which passage
[50:28] Speaker 2: you're consulting.
[50:30] Speaker 5: Okay, well, let's go through those Who is the pharaoh
[50:34] Speaker 5: in Exodus.
[50:35] Speaker 2: According to the end of Genesis. In the beginning of
[50:38] Speaker 2: Exus chapter one, it appears to be Ramsey's because it
[50:41] Speaker 2: says that they built the storehouses of Pithoms and Ramsey's,
[50:45] Speaker 2: which Ramses a second was pretty well known for.
[50:48] Speaker 5: Yes, appears to be, but we cannot say with certainty
[50:54] Speaker 5: it must be wrong if it doesn't name who it is, right,
[50:57] Speaker 5: there is a little ambiguity there.
[50:59] Speaker 2: But did they build the storehouses of Pithmon and Ramses?
[51:04] Speaker 5: Yes, that did happen under Ramsey's.
[51:06] Speaker 2: But okay, so are you suggesting then that the Israelites
[51:11] Speaker 2: in Egypt built the storehouses of Ramseys. That seems to
[51:14] Speaker 2: be what the Texas saying, right.
[51:17] Speaker 5: Yeah, I think modern scholarly consensus is that it was
[51:21] Speaker 5: Ramses the second, but we can't say that was certainty great.
[51:24] Speaker 2: So then the problem you have is, according to the
[51:27] Speaker 2: Book of Kings, First Kings, Chapter six, it dates the
[51:30] Speaker 2: Exodus for four hundred plus years prior to that, I
[51:33] Speaker 2: think four hundred and eighty years. I want to read it.
[51:38] Speaker 5: Well, when this First Kings takes place? Also, how were
[51:44] Speaker 5: Jewish people counting their years? Is it the same after
[51:48] Speaker 5: the Babylonian exile or is it Did they ever adopt
[51:51] Speaker 5: a Syrian calendars Persian calendars? You get really muddy with
[51:55] Speaker 5: that pretty quickly.
[51:57] Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think it's muddy at all.
[51:59] Speaker 2: So I'll explain, says the First King's Chapter six. In
[52:03] Speaker 2: the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came
[52:06] Speaker 2: out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year
[52:08] Speaker 2: of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of zev
[52:11] Speaker 2: which is the second month, he began to build the
[52:13] Speaker 2: House of the Lord, referring to Solomon building the temple. So,
[52:16] Speaker 2: according to First Kings Chapter six, the exodus was four
[52:19] Speaker 2: hundred and eighty years prior to the building of Solomon's Temple,
[52:23] Speaker 2: which virtually unanimously agreed upon by scholars and historians to
[52:28] Speaker 2: be roughly nine to seventy nine to eighty BCE, which means,
[52:32] Speaker 2: according to First Kings Chapter six, the exis would have
[52:36] Speaker 2: been in the middle of the fourteen hundreds. Follow so far, Okay,
[52:44] Speaker 2: when did Ramsey the Second live?
[52:51] Speaker 5: Ramsey's the Second was during the Third Kingdom period. I'm
[52:56] Speaker 5: going to say probably the nine hundreds.
[53:00] Speaker 2: You're off by a little bit. Ramsey's lived in the
[53:02] Speaker 2: middle of the twelve hundreds. You reign from like twelve
[53:05] Speaker 2: seventy nine ish to like twelve twenty three somewhere in there.
[53:09] Speaker 2: So they could not have built the storehouses of Pithom
[53:12] Speaker 2: and Ramses if in fact they had already exited Egypt
[53:17] Speaker 2: two hundred years prior.
[53:21] Speaker 5: Well, how do you know the dating system that they're
[53:24] Speaker 5: using in Kings.
[53:25] Speaker 2: Well, it's easy. You can actually just go by the
[53:28] Speaker 2: date six oh five when the Gdans were invaded by
[53:31] Speaker 2: the Babylonians and use the ages of both the Babylonian
[53:36] Speaker 2: lineage of the Kings and the biblical lineage of the kings,
[53:39] Speaker 2: and you can determine that Solomon's temple was built at
[53:42] Speaker 2: a particular time period. Also, you don't need much to
[53:47] Speaker 2: get you from nine to seventy to six oh five.
[53:50] Speaker 2: We've got Egyptian records, we've got Jewish records, we've got
[53:53] Speaker 2: Biblical records, we've got Babylonian records. We kind of have
[53:56] Speaker 2: a pretty good idea of when six invasion began in
[54:01] Speaker 2: six oh five.
[54:04] Speaker 5: Yes, but some of the other examples that you brought up,
[54:08] Speaker 5: like Jesus's birth being ten years off, whatever it is,
[54:11] Speaker 5: I mean, that's using the Gregorian calendar, not necessarily what
[54:16] Speaker 5: the Jews, the Greeks, the Romans would have used.
[54:19] Speaker 2: No difference the solar calendar versus the lunar calendar only
[54:23] Speaker 2: gives you a difference of like four days.
[54:28] Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, but you said, you said that Jesus' birth
[54:31] Speaker 5: is off, which is impossible because the New Testament doesn't tell.
[54:35] Speaker 2: Us it's certainly not possible. Yeah, it says he was
[54:37] Speaker 2: born before the death of Herod. Right, he went into Egypt,
[54:40] Speaker 2: and he stayed there until the death of Herod, Herod
[54:43] Speaker 2: the Great. He died in four BCE. The Book of
[54:45] Speaker 2: Luke states that he was born during the census of Quinerius,
[54:49] Speaker 2: which is roughly six CEO, So you're off by about
[54:53] Speaker 2: ten years.
[54:55] Speaker 5: How do you know that the census of Quinarius is
[54:58] Speaker 5: when Josi said it was.
[55:01] Speaker 2: Well, no one can guarantee anything in history, like when
[55:04] Speaker 2: a historian tells us that something happened while somebody you
[55:09] Speaker 2: know was alive, you could be off by a couple
[55:12] Speaker 2: of years. That being said, we have Roman records as well,
[55:15] Speaker 2: letting us know when that census was and when Kaynerius
[55:18] Speaker 2: was governor. So like, it's not like we're just relying
[55:21] Speaker 2: on Josephus. It's also weird that, like you pivoted really
[55:25] Speaker 2: quick to Jesus' birth without finishing the conversation on Moses.
[55:30] Speaker 5: I wasn't trying to pivot. I was trying to prove that,
[55:33] Speaker 5: like Josephus is wrong about that. Now I would I
[55:36] Speaker 5: would be.
[55:37] Speaker 2: Fine with what evans do you have that Josephus got
[55:39] Speaker 2: it wrong?
[55:42] Speaker 5: Okay, that's I will grant you. I don't have evidence
[55:46] Speaker 5: that josepha was wrong. But when we put Josephus versus Luke,
[55:50] Speaker 5: Luke is right about more things.
[55:53] Speaker 2: Based on who's metric, Who's who's counting this?
[55:57] Speaker 5: Well, I would say, like the the title of conscious Pilot,
[56:05] Speaker 5: how did you determine that Luke is more accurate than Josephus?
[56:10] Speaker 5: Well in the other example we have of was conscious
[56:15] Speaker 5: pilot the procurator or the perfector? Luke is correct? So
[56:20] Speaker 5: just say that when they go.
[56:21] Speaker 2: Head to head, what do you think the difference is.
[56:25] Speaker 5: I think it'd probably be like mayor versus head of
[56:28] Speaker 5: the city council, pretty close, but not the same.
[56:31] Speaker 2: Why do you think that.
[56:35] Speaker 5: That is what I have been led to believe based
[56:38] Speaker 5: on what I brought.
[56:39] Speaker 2: Uh, They're they're literally both just officials of the Roman government.
[56:44] Speaker 2: And the words, the two words that you're trying to
[56:47] Speaker 2: work on are English words. They don't show up in
[56:52] Speaker 2: the Greek.
[56:52] Speaker 5: Okay, okay, Well.
[56:56] Speaker 2: You're making a weird uh like argument based on how
[57:01] Speaker 2: two different English translators decided to translate the texts.
[57:07] Speaker 5: Yes, but that is the same point that I made
[57:09] Speaker 5: a couple of minutes ago about our dating systems. Is
[57:12] Speaker 5: that you have how long is a year? When they
[57:16] Speaker 5: wrote First Kings.
[57:19] Speaker 2: It was a lunar calendar, So you're off by just
[57:21] Speaker 2: a couple of days compared to the solar counter calendar.
[57:25] Speaker 2: It's not that much, Okay, a couple of days, and
[57:29] Speaker 2: I think it's four, could be five. Shot me, let
[57:32] Speaker 2: me check.
[57:32] Speaker 11: Okay, how many days in the.
[57:38] Speaker 2: Lunar calendar ship off by two days? One day? The
[57:44] Speaker 2: lunar calendar as we know it today has three hundred
[57:47] Speaker 2: and fifty four days. So I mean, you're gonna following
[57:54] Speaker 2: the lunar calendar versus the solar calendar isn't going to
[57:58] Speaker 2: yield you a difference of ten years of ten years?
[58:05] Speaker 5: Yeah, well, okay, but we do see in the Bible
[58:15] Speaker 5: that there are numbers that there we have problems with
[58:21] Speaker 5: between each other, like in First I think in First
[58:24] Speaker 5: Kings it says that there were seven hundred soldiers that
[58:27] Speaker 5: that died on horseback, and then Chronicle this says seven thousand.
[58:31] Speaker 2: Yep, I've murder. That's in the Second Samuel though, not Kings.
[58:37] Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, my bad, Second Sandel.
[58:40] Speaker 2: So it sounds like you an argument.
[58:44] Speaker 5: No, numbers are a very easy thing to miss, to
[58:49] Speaker 5: miss right, to get the count wrong.
[58:51] Speaker 3: Right.
[58:52] Speaker 5: I mean like if I asked you how many votes
[58:54] Speaker 5: did Trump get, that's that's like immediately available and you'd
[58:58] Speaker 5: probably get fifty different answers if you add fifty different Americans.
[59:01] Speaker 5: They didn't have Google to tell them.
[59:03] Speaker 2: But if the question is why is the Bible accurate,
[59:06] Speaker 2: and you point to like these accounts with the dates
[59:11] Speaker 2: and the numbers, and the dates and the numbers are wrong,
[59:13] Speaker 2: then that means that the Bible is not all that accurate.
[59:15] Speaker 2: Now you're just making excuses for like why it's not accurate. Also,
[59:19] Speaker 2: the New Testament couldn't even quote the Old Testament properly,
[59:22] Speaker 2: like for example, in Mark chapter two, Jesus says that
[59:28] Speaker 2: Abbiathar was the high priest when David and his men
[59:31] Speaker 2: ate the showbread. But in fact, in First Samuel twenty one,
[59:35] Speaker 2: it was a Himmelech. Maybe did Jesus not read the
[59:41] Speaker 2: Old Testament or what?
[59:44] Speaker 5: I am unfamiliar with that so.
[59:47] Speaker 2: We can read it rightly. It's Marx, I'll put on
[59:53] Speaker 2: the screen. So Marke. He says he entered the House
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: of God when abbi Athar was the high priest and
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: ate the bread of presents, which it is not lawful
[1:00:08] Speaker 2: for any to eat, but the priests, so on and
[1:00:10] Speaker 2: so forth. And of course Matthew cleans this up when
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: Matthew tells the same story. He just leaves out the
[1:00:16] Speaker 2: name of Abbi Athar because Matthew's like, oops, that was
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: the wrong guy. But if you go to first scene
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: of twenty one, it's clear that the priest acting in
[1:00:25] Speaker 2: charge was a Himmelecht. David came to knob to the
[1:00:28] Speaker 2: priest a Himmelek, and Himelech came trembling, so on and
[1:00:30] Speaker 2: so forth, and then you get the whole narrative of
[1:00:33] Speaker 2: David eating the showbread. So like, if Jesus can't even
[1:00:36] Speaker 2: get his history right, I don't really have a whole
[1:00:39] Speaker 2: lot of hope for the rest of the Bible.
[1:00:44] Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, So I would say two things. I actually
[1:00:47] Speaker 5: i'd say three things, because one, I don't want to
[1:00:49] Speaker 5: run from legitimate arguments, so I will chalk that up
[1:00:53] Speaker 5: to your correct that that's got to be a mistake.
[1:00:57] Speaker 5: But two, I would say I never claimed the Bible's
[1:00:59] Speaker 5: perfect right when I read. When I read like this,
[1:01:03] Speaker 5: the commentaries on the Civil War, I take that as
[1:01:07] Speaker 5: history from Julius Caesar. But I also keep in the
[1:01:10] Speaker 5: back of my mind, okay, some things could be incorrect.
[1:01:13] Speaker 5: Or when I read, you know, Horobins or whatever. There's
[1:01:16] Speaker 5: a lot wrong with Carobs, but you know what I'm.
[1:01:18] Speaker 2: Saying, Yeah, but with those written by.
[1:01:21] Speaker 5: Absolutely well, the whole idea of biblical inerrancy wasn't even
[1:01:28] Speaker 5: held by Justin Martyr or polycarp Like. That's a very
[1:01:34] Speaker 5: in terms of the grand scheme. That's that's in the
[1:01:36] Speaker 5: last five six hundred years that Protestants have declared there
[1:01:40] Speaker 5: can be no mistakes in the Bible.
[1:01:42] Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure about that. For example, like Clement
[1:01:46] Speaker 2: and iron Ais talked about it, even Justin Martyr did not.
[1:01:49] Speaker 2: Now that you bring up Justin Martyr, I've got a
[1:01:51] Speaker 2: hold on I'm going to find you a quote from him.
[1:01:56] Speaker 2: Just Marder says, I am entirely convinced that no scripture
[1:01:59] Speaker 2: contradicts another. I shall admit that I do not understand
[1:02:03] Speaker 2: what is recorded, and shall strive to persuade those who
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: imagine that the scriptures are contradictory to be rather of
[1:02:10] Speaker 2: the same opinion myself. So Justin himself says that the
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: scriptures can't contradict, although there are some that seem confusing,
[1:02:20] Speaker 2: but we do in fact have real contradictions.
[1:02:26] Speaker 5: Well, I would also say, when Justin Martyr says that
[1:02:29] Speaker 5: what is established canon scripture at that point?
[1:02:33] Speaker 2: Well, Justin Martyr, if you read his writings, believed in
[1:02:36] Speaker 2: the Protestant canon plus the apocryphal works. In fact, he
[1:02:40] Speaker 2: goes on a pretty long bender defending the apocryphal works,
[1:02:44] Speaker 2: claiming that it was the Jews seeking to remove them
[1:02:47] Speaker 2: from the Bible in a big conspiracy to eliminate some
[1:02:51] Speaker 2: of the prophecies about Jesus.
[1:02:57] Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, but when we point to like you'd
[1:03:00] Speaker 5: you brought up Mark, right, And I don't know this.
[1:03:03] Speaker 5: I'm more asking putting out there, like, was Mark established
[1:03:09] Speaker 5: canon scripture by that point?
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[1:03:12] Speaker 2: I would imagine. So it seems to be the earliest
[1:03:15] Speaker 2: gospel written. And I forget who all is on the
[1:03:20] Speaker 2: Mirditorian fragment, but I would imagine Justin would have known
[1:03:24] Speaker 2: about them. Justin quotes pretty pretty readily from the canon
[1:03:30] Speaker 2: that we know of. Yeah, okay, I mean doubting market
[1:03:41] Speaker 2: as being scripture would be pretty drastic.
[1:03:46] Speaker 5: Oh no, no, I wouldn't say. But like when Paul
[1:03:50] Speaker 5: or Peter references scripture, they are talking about the Old Testament, right,
[1:03:55] Speaker 5: So it gets a little muddy there, Like when when
[1:03:57] Speaker 5: Peter references if Peter actually wrote the books of First,
[1:04:02] Speaker 5: Second and Third Peter. When he referenceds scripture, he's not
[1:04:05] Speaker 5: talking about Ephesians, right, He's talking about the Old Testament.
[1:04:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so there's some questions as to what
[1:04:13] Speaker 2: Paul meant when he says scripture. Paul seems to be
[1:04:16] Speaker 2: referring to the Old Testament. There's a line in Second
[1:04:19] Speaker 2: Peter chapter three where Second Peter refers to Paul's writings
[1:04:23] Speaker 2: as scripture. So it seems that later tradition was pretty
[1:04:28] Speaker 2: ready to include Paul's writings as scripture. And I would
[1:04:33] Speaker 2: imagine the Gospels as well.
[1:04:36] Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, polycarp said that Paul's writings were inspired scripture.
[1:04:41] Speaker 5: He was fully on board.
[1:04:42] Speaker 3: That's rain.
[1:04:44] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:04:45] Speaker 5: What what was the point that before I brought up
[1:04:47] Speaker 5: justin Martyr? What were what would the point?
[1:04:51] Speaker 2: Well, the point was that it's it's you know, the
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: biblical and errancy debate has been going on since the
[1:04:59] Speaker 2: very beginning, you know, and I think it is kind
[1:05:02] Speaker 2: of important. Like if we're talking about the historicity of
[1:05:05] Speaker 2: scripture and the accuracy of scripture, and then I find
[1:05:08] Speaker 2: passages that seem to be out of line with history
[1:05:12] Speaker 2: or science or even contradicts itself. I'm not inclined to
[1:05:16] Speaker 2: believe that the book itself is reliable.
[1:05:22] Speaker 5: Well, I think it's also important to look at each
[1:05:26] Speaker 5: book as its own standalone book. They were not compiled
[1:05:29] Speaker 5: together as the Bible at the time.
[1:05:32] Speaker 2: Sure, but if it's all from God, it shouldn't contradict.
[1:05:37] Speaker 5: Well, again, I think I do not take Scripture as
[1:05:47] Speaker 5: literal word for word from God. I take it as
[1:05:51] Speaker 5: divinely inspired by God to show Himself to us through people,
[1:05:56] Speaker 5: albeit flawed.
[1:05:57] Speaker 2: If God divinely inspired it, why wouldn't he just inspire
[1:06:00] Speaker 2: in a way on which it wouldn't be flawed, And
[1:06:02] Speaker 2: why wouldn't he make it accurate?
[1:06:06] Speaker 5: Well, a lot of people do believe that. I just
[1:06:10] Speaker 5: think that you can't. You can't hold that line and
[1:06:14] Speaker 5: be correct. I'm with you, because there are there are
[1:06:18] Speaker 5: things in there that The argument I always hear is
[1:06:25] Speaker 5: that exemption is not contradiction. Right, But like how many
[1:06:28] Speaker 5: angels were at the tomb? Okay, somebody could look at
[1:06:33] Speaker 5: that and say, look, one gospel sendsor's one angel, gospel
[1:06:36] Speaker 5: sensors two angels. Therefore the gospels are not true and
[1:06:38] Speaker 5: I shouldn't believe or one gospel says Jesus was cursified
[1:06:41] Speaker 5: on Passover, the others say the.
[1:06:44] Speaker 2: Day before, right, yep, that's correct.
[1:06:46] Speaker 1: Yep.
[1:06:46] Speaker 5: So yeah, the easier, the more logical thing I think
[1:06:51] Speaker 5: to believe is that, Okay, you have sixty seventy authors
[1:06:57] Speaker 5: who are trying to compile the history of what I saw,
[1:07:00] Speaker 5: and they're going to miss the mark sometimes, but most
[1:07:03] Speaker 5: of the time they're going to accurately reflect what they've seen, heard, believe, And.
[1:07:08] Speaker 2: No, well, I think that's true for some of the
[1:07:11] Speaker 2: books of the Hebrew Bible. I don't think it's necessarily
[1:07:13] Speaker 2: true for someone we find in the New Testament. Like
[1:07:16] Speaker 2: the New Testament can even read the Hebrew Bible correctly,
[1:07:20] Speaker 2: so it just it misquotes it at every turn, or
[1:07:24] Speaker 2: it quotes from editions that seem to be lost to history.
[1:07:27] Speaker 2: We don't have them. And then you know, on the
[1:07:30] Speaker 2: other hand, it's completely out of context. Like every time
[1:07:35] Speaker 2: the New Testament is quoting the Old Testament, it's quoting
[1:07:39] Speaker 2: it out of context. Like half the time it's quoting prophecies,
[1:07:42] Speaker 2: they're not even prophecies, they're just random like snippets from
[1:07:46] Speaker 2: one of the Psalms. So like I'm not encouraged that
[1:07:53] Speaker 2: the New Testament authors were inspired when they keep lying
[1:07:55] Speaker 2: to my face.
[1:08:00] Speaker 5: Are you talking about like.
[1:08:02] Speaker 7: Now?
[1:08:03] Speaker 5: Isaiah's original translation says young girl not virgin or like
[1:08:07] Speaker 5: the crimson worm? What are some things you're talking about?
[1:08:12] Speaker 2: For example, in Matthew, right, I'm sorry. In John, I'm thinking,
[1:08:16] Speaker 2: I give me a second to remember which chapter is it?
[1:08:19] Speaker 2: John nineteen, John thirteen? I think it's John thirteen. So
[1:08:23] Speaker 2: in John thirteen, Jesus is predicting his own betrayal. Yeah,
[1:08:27] Speaker 2: John thirteen eighteen is the one. Let me grab it
[1:08:30] Speaker 2: real quick. And Jesus says something really interesting. In John.
[1:08:38] Speaker 2: It says, I'm not speaking of all of you, I
[1:08:41] Speaker 2: know whom I've chosen, but it is to fulfill the scripture.
[1:08:44] Speaker 2: The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel
[1:08:47] Speaker 2: against me. So Jesus is suggesting, like the situation here
[1:08:51] Speaker 2: is that this scripture needs to be fulfilled. So he's
[1:08:54] Speaker 2: treating this as though it's prophecy. Right, But if you
[1:08:58] Speaker 2: go to where this show's which is in Psalm forty one,
[1:09:02] Speaker 2: it's not a prophecy at all. Like it's just a
[1:09:05] Speaker 2: random quotation from Psalm forty one. In fact, the person
[1:09:10] Speaker 2: speaking here literally says, heal me, I have sinned against you.
[1:09:14] Speaker 2: It's obviously not about the Messiah. It's not a prophecy.
[1:09:18] Speaker 2: He just found a random verse in a random psalm
[1:09:22] Speaker 2: that talked about betrayal and said, well, it's a prophecy.
[1:09:25] Speaker 2: Now that's that. You wouldn't accept that in the Qur'an,
[1:09:29] Speaker 2: you wouldn't accept that in any other holy book. Why
[1:09:31] Speaker 2: would you accept that in the Bible.
[1:09:37] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[1:09:38] Speaker 5: Obviously I'm biased towards my own worldview, but I'd say,
[1:09:42] Speaker 5: just the greater concept of betrayal is a prophecy fulfilled?
[1:09:48] Speaker 7: Right?
[1:09:49] Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, Like an actual prophecy needs
[1:09:54] Speaker 2: to be specific, like God. God actually needs to be
[1:09:56] Speaker 2: clearly speaking through a prophet saying X, Y and Z
[1:10:00] Speaker 2: is going to happen. It can't just be a randomly
[1:10:03] Speaker 2: grabbed verse from a random passage in the Hebrew Bible
[1:10:07] Speaker 2: that sounds like something that you want it to be about.
[1:10:11] Speaker 5: Yeah, but when we do have specific examples like the
[1:10:15] Speaker 5: flight to Egypt is prophesied, people will sure about that
[1:10:19] Speaker 5: one down and say, oh, but it's only in one
[1:10:21] Speaker 5: gospel or no, that he'll be from Nazareth. Oh, it's
[1:10:25] Speaker 5: not in any Gospel or the Virgin or from Betha,
[1:10:31] Speaker 5: Ham and Micah.
[1:10:32] Speaker 2: Right, I like, all of these are are important prophecies,
[1:10:35] Speaker 2: except that the one you started with is not a prophecy.
[1:10:38] Speaker 2: Hosea eleven. The prophecy doesn't start until verse five. Hosea eleven.
[1:10:43] Speaker 2: One and two is history. In fact, one through four
[1:10:46] Speaker 2: is history. He says, when Israel was a child, I
[1:10:49] Speaker 2: loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
[1:10:51] Speaker 2: There's a direct quotation from Exous chapter four. It says
[1:10:55] Speaker 2: the more I called them, the more they went from me.
[1:10:57] Speaker 2: They kept sacrificing to the bales and offering. In some titles,
[1:11:00] Speaker 2: this is not about a messiah. This is about the
[1:11:02] Speaker 2: nation of Israel. This is what happened during the Exodus
[1:11:07] Speaker 2: in past ten.
[1:11:08] Speaker 5: Yes, but Jesus is supposed to act as a new Moses,
[1:11:13] Speaker 5: like bring in a new law, no covenant.
[1:11:16] Speaker 2: That's not in the Hebrew bubble anywhere.
[1:11:20] Speaker 5: Uh, well, that's that's I think. The parallels. Excuse me,
[1:11:25] Speaker 5: I guess I'm not gonna throw The parallels are like
[1:11:31] Speaker 5: an obvious connection that we can just make. Why without it,
[1:11:36] Speaker 5: I don't that's what we do with literature right, and
[1:11:39] Speaker 5: the curtains were blue. No, you don't, you don't.
[1:11:42] Speaker 2: The question is what is a prophecy? A prophecy's not
[1:11:45] Speaker 2: just any words on a page that sound like what
[1:11:48] Speaker 2: you want him to sound like. A prophecy is like
[1:11:50] Speaker 2: a clear pattern of speech. In fact, God tells you
[1:11:53] Speaker 2: how to test a prophet in Deuteronomy eighteen. He says,
[1:11:56] Speaker 2: if if the words of the prophet does not come
[1:11:58] Speaker 2: true or prove to be true true, then that prophet
[1:12:01] Speaker 2: is not speaking for Yahweh, and you must kill that
[1:12:05] Speaker 2: prophet for speaking presumptuously. So like a prophecy from a
[1:12:10] Speaker 2: prophet is like an actual piece of information that you
[1:12:13] Speaker 2: can test. It's not just like any random words on
[1:12:17] Speaker 2: a page.
[1:12:20] Speaker 5: Okay, I agree with that, But like the example he
[1:12:23] Speaker 5: just gave, did Jesus say here's the prophecy or did
[1:12:28] Speaker 5: he just say I fulfilled this?
[1:12:30] Speaker 2: Well, Jesus didn't say it. This was listed by Matthew.
[1:12:33] Speaker 2: If you go to Matthew took he lists it in
[1:12:36] Speaker 2: verse fourteen I believe fourteen or fifteen. Let me grab that.
[1:12:42] Speaker 2: In fourteen. Yeah, he says, Joseph got up and took
[1:12:44] Speaker 2: the child and his mother by night and went to Egypt,
[1:12:47] Speaker 2: and then in fifteen he says, and remained there until
[1:12:51] Speaker 2: the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had
[1:12:54] Speaker 2: been spoken by the Lord through the prophet out of Egypt,
[1:12:57] Speaker 2: I've called my son. So Matthew is interpreting it as
[1:13:00] Speaker 2: though it's a prophecy, which is why I don't trust Matthew.
[1:13:11] Speaker 5: So is there anything Do you think that there's any
[1:13:16] Speaker 5: actual history recorded in the New Testament or do you
[1:13:20] Speaker 5: think it's all fabricated written later, Like what's your stance on.
[1:13:25] Speaker 2: Well, I believe there was a guy named Jesus who
[1:13:28] Speaker 2: came around and was like a Jewish teacher, maybe even
[1:13:34] Speaker 2: a magician or a wise man that ended up getting
[1:13:38] Speaker 2: killed by the state. That certainly is something that I
[1:13:41] Speaker 2: can find believable based on the evidence that we have.
[1:13:44] Speaker 2: But I think the stories that are told about them
[1:13:48] Speaker 2: are quite mythological. And we've got similar stories about other
[1:13:51] Speaker 2: people from history that you know, when you look at
[1:13:53] Speaker 2: the earliest stories, they were quite normal, and then over
[1:13:58] Speaker 2: time the stories about them grow and grow and grow
[1:14:01] Speaker 2: until they're like demi gods, And I think that's what
[1:14:04] Speaker 2: happened with Jesus.
[1:14:09] Speaker 5: Yeah, that's somewhat plausible, except it doesn't grow and grow
[1:14:15] Speaker 5: over time. It's almost immediate.
[1:14:17] Speaker 2: Well, I don't think so.
[1:14:18] Speaker 5: It's like Jesus is crucified and there's immediately people worshiping
[1:14:24] Speaker 5: him as God.
[1:14:26] Speaker 2: Oh, I don't think so at all. I mean, the
[1:14:27] Speaker 2: earliest Gospel of Mark is quite ambiguous about his deified position.
[1:14:33] Speaker 2: It seems like he's more got an adoptionist theology, like
[1:14:37] Speaker 2: Jesus is like the adopted son of the Father, similar
[1:14:40] Speaker 2: to what the Greeks and the Romans did. You don't
[1:14:42] Speaker 2: get like a Jesus true demigod until you get to
[1:14:47] Speaker 2: the Book of John, which is quite late.
[1:14:53] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[1:14:54] Speaker 5: Mark, Mark makes some claims like when they only God
[1:14:58] Speaker 5: can forgive sins, and then Jesus says, okay, I forgive sins.
[1:15:03] Speaker 2: Well, no, he says, the son of Man. Right, So
[1:15:05] Speaker 2: the question is what authority does the son of Man have?
[1:15:08] Speaker 2: So the Son of Man, if you remember correctly, is
[1:15:11] Speaker 2: a figure that shows up in Daniel chapter seven, also
[1:15:14] Speaker 2: shows up in the Book of Enoch and in the
[1:15:16] Speaker 2: Dead Sea Scrolls. Is like this messianic title. And so
[1:15:20] Speaker 2: Jesus is explaining what authority the son of Man has.
[1:15:25] Speaker 2: He's saying that the Son of Man has authority to
[1:15:27] Speaker 2: forgive sins, which is because God give it to him.
[1:15:30] Speaker 2: Because remember, the whole shtick is that all authority in
[1:15:34] Speaker 2: heaven and earth has been given to the son of Man.
[1:15:37] Speaker 2: So he's just basically clarifying, yes, the son of Man
[1:15:40] Speaker 2: does in fact have the power to do some of
[1:15:42] Speaker 2: these things that only God can do.
[1:15:47] Speaker 5: Yes, only God can do like ride the clouds forgive sins.
[1:15:52] Speaker 5: The Old Testament says God does not share his glory,
[1:15:54] Speaker 5: but then somehow Jesus has all the glory of God
[1:15:58] Speaker 5: in even the Gospel of Mark.
[1:15:59] Speaker 2: Actually, I mean, you basically just created a good contradiction.
[1:16:02] Speaker 2: I've used this one before. The only way around this
[1:16:07] Speaker 2: you're quoting from Isaiah chapter forty five, I remember, correctly.
[1:16:11] Speaker 2: The only way around this is to say that Jesus
[1:16:14] Speaker 2: is God, because otherwise you've got a big problem. If
[1:16:17] Speaker 2: Yahweh doesn't share his glory with another. He says, there's
[1:16:20] Speaker 2: no gods created before me, nor none after me. Then
[1:16:25] Speaker 2: the only way to square this round peg is to
[1:16:27] Speaker 2: say that Jesus actually is Yahweh, which creates a crazy
[1:16:31] Speaker 2: logical contradiction.
[1:16:35] Speaker 5: I mean, that's just the belief of mainstream Christianity that
[1:16:40] Speaker 5: I know, Jesus is the second person of the trinity.
[1:16:43] Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, But it's a logical contradiction. The trinity
[1:16:47] Speaker 2: is incoherent, like it's either one god or three gods,
[1:16:51] Speaker 2: but it's not three and one.
[1:16:55] Speaker 5: Why would that be a contradiction.
[1:16:57] Speaker 2: Because one plus one plus one equals three.
[1:17:01] Speaker 5: Yeah, three in one, got it. It's like nope, no,
[1:17:07] Speaker 5: it's it's not three guys. That would be polytheism.
[1:17:09] Speaker 2: I agree, yes, yeah, the trinity would be polytheism. If
[1:17:13] Speaker 2: you're using like actual logic.
[1:17:17] Speaker 5: Well, would you agree? Would you say that the Hebrews
[1:17:21] Speaker 5: were monotheistic?
[1:17:23] Speaker 3: Uh?
[1:17:23] Speaker 2: No, I think the Hebrews were a henotheistic.
[1:17:27] Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, I'm gonna say because we see in the
[1:17:33] Speaker 5: Sodom and Good More story, Yahweh on Earth reigns fire
[1:17:37] Speaker 5: from Yahweh in Heaven.
[1:17:38] Speaker 2: No, not Yahweh on Earth. Doesn't say that that's a
[1:17:41] Speaker 2: Genesis nineteen. It's just Yahweh rained down fire from Yahweh
[1:17:45] Speaker 2: in Heaven. Doesn't say that he was on the earth.
[1:17:47] Speaker 2: And in fact, if you read the narrative, it's quite
[1:17:50] Speaker 2: clear that Yahweh appeared in Genesis eighteen with two other
[1:17:54] Speaker 2: angels and then the two angels departed in what the Sodom,
[1:17:59] Speaker 2: and Yahweh went back home to heaven. So it's just
[1:18:06] Speaker 2: a clarification of where Yahweh is when he rains down
[1:18:09] Speaker 2: the fire and sulfur and the talent. It actually deals
[1:18:12] Speaker 2: with this quite well, because there's quite a few instances
[1:18:16] Speaker 2: where this type of sentence structure shows up. I think
[1:18:20] Speaker 2: the earliest is in the lineage given in Genesis when
[1:18:25] Speaker 2: it talks about Lemech, and Lemech refers to himself in
[1:18:31] Speaker 2: the third person as well. So I personally I think
[1:18:36] Speaker 2: like these little grammatical anomalies are just artifacts from copying errors.
[1:18:42] Speaker 2: But that being said, there's so many of them I
[1:18:45] Speaker 2: would be reluctant to use one of them to dream
[1:18:49] Speaker 2: up some kind of e trinity.
[1:18:52] Speaker 5: Okay, uh, Actually I only have a couple of minutes left,
[1:18:57] Speaker 5: and you seem very knowledgeable. I'm actually blown away with
[1:19:00] Speaker 5: how much like you can to say, oh, yeah, that's
[1:19:02] Speaker 5: Isaiah forty five. So I've had something that I've been
[1:19:05] Speaker 5: really wrestling with. Yeah. Maybe I'm going to assume you've
[1:19:09] Speaker 5: probably heard him in Deuteronomy. Do you know the scene
[1:19:14] Speaker 5: where ell Yon is distributing.
[1:19:17] Speaker 2: The nations, yeah, thirty two eight.
[1:19:20] Speaker 5: Yes, I've done a ton of reading and it's all biased, right,
[1:19:26] Speaker 5: at least the Christian if you get it from a
[1:19:29] Speaker 5: Christian source, it's biased to No, Monotheism didn't develop over time,
[1:19:33] Speaker 5: it was always there. El ell Yon is Yahweh. Yeah,
[1:19:37] Speaker 5: but it doesn't seem that way. What's what do you
[1:19:40] Speaker 5: do with that from your perspective?
[1:19:43] Speaker 2: Okay, So there's a scholar who I think provides the
[1:19:46] Speaker 2: best explanation for this problem. And for those who don't know,
[1:19:49] Speaker 2: let me put it on the screen. Deuteronomy thirty two
[1:19:53] Speaker 2: eight says, when the Most High, that's ell Yon in Hebrew,
[1:19:56] Speaker 2: apportioned the nations when he divided humankind, and he fixed
[1:20:00] Speaker 2: the boundaries of the people according to the number of
[1:20:03] Speaker 2: the gods. Yahweh's own portion was his people. Jacob has
[1:20:07] Speaker 2: allotted share so based on the reading of the text,
[1:20:11] Speaker 2: basically suggesting that Yahweh was part of a pantheon rather
[1:20:16] Speaker 2: than equivalent with el Yon. So that's how most people
[1:20:20] Speaker 2: read this now. Mark S. Smith has done quite a
[1:20:24] Speaker 2: bit of work on this. He's a scholar of the
[1:20:27] Speaker 2: Bible and the ancient Near East, and he's written a
[1:20:31] Speaker 2: book that you might be might want to check out
[1:20:33] Speaker 2: Give me a second. That kind of develops this this
[1:20:41] Speaker 2: track into monotheism. The name of the book is the
[1:20:46] Speaker 2: Origins of Biblical Monotheism, Israel's polytheist at background and the
[1:20:51] Speaker 2: ugarritic text by Mark S. Smith. And he's no chump.
[1:20:56] Speaker 2: I forget where he teaches at. It is like Oxford
[1:20:59] Speaker 2: or Princeton, ors think, give me a second to recall.
[1:21:05] Speaker 2: Let's see Marcus Smith. Where does he teach at Yale?
[1:21:11] Speaker 2: He graduated from Yale, But where's he currently teaching? Where?
[1:21:16] Speaker 2: See where it says blah blah blah blah blah blah.
[1:21:19] Speaker 2: He went to JOHNS. Hopkins, and he went to Yale.
[1:21:23] Speaker 2: He went to Harvard as well. Shit, where does he
[1:21:27] Speaker 2: teach at?
[1:21:27] Speaker 17: Now?
[1:21:28] Speaker 2: He can't be retired Princeton? Okay, he became the professor
[1:21:31] Speaker 2: of Old Testament Literature and EXE Jesus at Princeton Theological Seminary.
[1:21:35] Speaker 2: So I mean the guy is not a schmuck. But anyways,
[1:21:39] Speaker 2: his general consensus is that originally Yahweh was one of
[1:21:42] Speaker 2: many gods, as implied by this text and other texts,
[1:21:46] Speaker 2: and then later when the Judeons supplanted the Israelites as
[1:21:52] Speaker 2: the dominant power, the Judeons basically converged the Judean yah
[1:21:59] Speaker 2: wistic call with the el cult of the Northern tribes.
[1:22:05] Speaker 2: It was worthwhile to read a couple of books on
[1:22:08] Speaker 2: the Israelite religious system. Most scholars nowadays believe that the
[1:22:14] Speaker 2: Judeans and the Israelites were two separate nations and that
[1:22:20] Speaker 2: they didn't really have a shared cultural heritage like people
[1:22:23] Speaker 2: want to think, and that they kind of combined their
[1:22:27] Speaker 2: nation into one nation. When the Assyrian Empire devastated the
[1:22:31] Speaker 2: Northern tribes and many of them escaped into Judah for protection,
[1:22:35] Speaker 2: they kind of had to merge their two ethnic and
[1:22:38] Speaker 2: religious identities. And that's why we have passages that seemed
[1:22:43] Speaker 2: to be making excuses, Like in Exos chapter six. There's
[1:22:49] Speaker 2: Versus chapter six that seems to be an explanation for
[1:22:53] Speaker 2: why there's like two different names of God. Says God
[1:22:58] Speaker 2: spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Yahweh.
[1:23:01] Speaker 2: I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as l should I,
[1:23:04] Speaker 2: but by my name Yahweh, I did not make myself
[1:23:08] Speaker 2: known to them. So this is a later text, and
[1:23:10] Speaker 2: it appears that the goal of this text is to
[1:23:13] Speaker 2: explain why some of our people know about l and
[1:23:17] Speaker 2: why some of our people know about Yahweh. And they're
[1:23:20] Speaker 2: trying to say, no, it's actually the same God. But
[1:23:23] Speaker 2: this particular text appears to be a much later text.
[1:23:28] Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there's also a I can't think of
[1:23:34] Speaker 5: the word, we try to reconcile, recless, reculatory, what's the
[1:23:39] Speaker 5: word I'm looking for.
[1:23:40] Speaker 2: I think reconcile.
[1:23:43] Speaker 5: Yeah, there's also a passage in Psalms where they try
[1:23:46] Speaker 5: to reconcile that that Al and Yahweh are the same.
[1:23:53] Speaker 2: Yes, there's actually a couple. In fact, in my cheat sheet,
[1:23:57] Speaker 2: I've got a deconstruction cheat sheet, I've add a couple
[1:24:01] Speaker 2: passages listed in the appendix of where they tend to
[1:24:08] Speaker 2: conflate the names of God to make it appear like
[1:24:11] Speaker 2: they're all the same. Give me a second to see
[1:24:13] Speaker 2: where some of those passages were. My sheets getting too
[1:24:20] Speaker 2: long at this point. So there's a couple of passages
[1:24:23] Speaker 2: that seem to equate Yahweh with el Yon, which would
[1:24:28] Speaker 2: be Psalm seven, Psalm nine, Psalm eighteen, Psalm twenty one,
[1:24:34] Speaker 2: Psalm forty seven, Psalm seventy seven, and then my favorites
[1:24:38] Speaker 2: are Psalm eighty three and Psalm ninety two. All of
[1:24:41] Speaker 2: the in Psalm ninety seven, all of these psalms seem
[1:24:45] Speaker 2: to be equating el Yon and Yahweh. And there's you know,
[1:24:50] Speaker 2: there's a couple of reasons why this is the case.
[1:24:53] Speaker 2: There is, if I'm being really charitable to the history
[1:24:56] Speaker 2: of the Bible, I could say that this I literally
[1:25:00] Speaker 2: came from the dividic United Monarchy and suggests that what
[1:25:06] Speaker 2: happened during the Assyrian invasion also happened during the United Monarchy.
[1:25:12] Speaker 2: And that's personally my theory. I think it's harder to prove,
[1:25:15] Speaker 2: and a lot of scholars agree with me, but they
[1:25:18] Speaker 2: can't prove it, meaning I agree with them. But I
[1:25:22] Speaker 2: believe that when David became king and solidified his power,
[1:25:26] Speaker 2: I believe the North and the South, who were originally
[1:25:28] Speaker 2: two different people groups, actually did merge for a time
[1:25:32] Speaker 2: period and become one united kingdom. And when they did,
[1:25:36] Speaker 2: there was a concerted effort by the court to the
[1:25:38] Speaker 2: king's court to mix their religious backgrounds and try to
[1:25:44] Speaker 2: make one solid religious background so that the kingdom could
[1:25:47] Speaker 2: remain united. But I don't think the effort was good enough,
[1:25:50] Speaker 2: which is why it split only one and a half
[1:25:52] Speaker 2: generations later.
[1:25:57] Speaker 5: Well, unfortunately I got to work at a o'clock.
[1:26:01] Speaker 2: I understand, appreciate.
[1:26:02] Speaker 5: You talking to me.
[1:26:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, Ben, thanks for coming up, man, I appreciate it.
[1:26:05] Speaker 5: Yeah, you have a good night.
[1:26:07] Speaker 2: Cheers ever going? Oh shit, I just asked, sorry Ben,
[1:26:12] Speaker 2: thanks for coming to talk. Sorry to whoever I just
[1:26:15] Speaker 2: accidentally kicked out of the guest box right now. Somebody
[1:26:20] Speaker 2: was in my guest box and I meant to to
[1:26:24] Speaker 2: send Ben off, and I accidentally booted them from the
[1:26:28] Speaker 2: guest box. I apologize to whoever that was. Lou Cord,
[1:26:35] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the super chat Loo, says
[1:26:37] Speaker 2: Acts one nine through twelve. In Luke twenty four fifty
[1:26:41] Speaker 2: through fifty three, Jesus shoots up in this space like
[1:26:44] Speaker 2: a rocket going where what's the point of a bodily
[1:26:47] Speaker 2: ascension when you're a spirit anyway? So this is really
[1:26:50] Speaker 2: good because this is also confirmed again in First Corinthians
[1:26:54] Speaker 2: chapter fifteen, where Paul makes it pretty clear that Jesus
[1:26:57] Speaker 2: had an actual body when he ascended even into the heavens.
[1:27:01] Speaker 2: And so this is something that is lost on the
[1:27:04] Speaker 2: modern reader, which is that even in biblical times they
[1:27:07] Speaker 2: didn't believe that you became immaterial like when you in
[1:27:11] Speaker 2: the afterlife. That wasn't the thing. You just had a
[1:27:14] Speaker 2: glorified body in the afterlife, and Jesus obviously received a
[1:27:18] Speaker 2: glorified body. I think another question, Lou, that we should
[1:27:22] Speaker 2: be asking ourselves is, according to the story the Men,
[1:27:28] Speaker 2: there's a whole crowd of people from Galilee who saw
[1:27:31] Speaker 2: it happen. How does an entire crowd of Galileans, and
[1:27:35] Speaker 2: I would imagine other people from the surrounding areas, how
[1:27:38] Speaker 2: do they see a guy floating up into the clouds
[1:27:41] Speaker 2: and not be like, well, you don't see that every day.
[1:27:45] Speaker 2: Maybe we should document this. That's crazy to me that
[1:27:48] Speaker 2: nobody actually documented it except for his followers hundreds of
[1:27:52] Speaker 2: years later. Sounds like mythology to me. And Ellis, thank
[1:27:57] Speaker 2: you for the nine to nine super chest says how
[1:27:59] Speaker 2: many indulge to Doug, do I have to pay so
[1:28:02] Speaker 2: that the Knicks can sweep the Eastern Conference finals? Glad
[1:28:06] Speaker 2: to catch you live Ben a minute, But Ellis, thank
[1:28:08] Speaker 2: you so much for being here and listen. I don't
[1:28:11] Speaker 2: know what the indulgence is for Doug to give the
[1:28:17] Speaker 2: Nix the power of the rock that being said, go Nicks.
[1:28:24] Speaker 2: I'm all for it. I'd love to see the Knicks
[1:28:26] Speaker 2: on top. It's been a long time. I remember there's
[1:28:28] Speaker 2: a time period when I was a young man that
[1:28:30] Speaker 2: the Knicks had a really good run for a while.
[1:28:33] Speaker 2: I loved watching Patrick Ewing. There are some really cool
[1:28:37] Speaker 2: players at that time period. I'm old, I'm for a
[1:28:39] Speaker 2: million years old now, but I'd love to see the
[1:28:42] Speaker 2: Knicks have some success. Praise Doug and him man, thank
[1:28:46] Speaker 2: you so much for the ten that our superchest. It
[1:28:47] Speaker 2: says not a lot of people talk about this. Jesus
[1:28:49] Speaker 2: and the Gospels behaves like a modern cult leader. We
[1:28:52] Speaker 2: only have cult texts from the cult followers. It's like
[1:28:56] Speaker 2: getting information about Hubbard from the cult. Nailed it. And
[1:29:01] Speaker 2: this is something you'll learn when you study cults. Anyone
[1:29:04] Speaker 2: that is teaching you that something horrific will happen to
[1:29:08] Speaker 2: you unless you only do exactly what I tell you to.
[1:29:13] Speaker 2: Nobody else has answers, nobody else has truth, only me.
[1:29:17] Speaker 2: That's like the first sign of a cult leader. So
[1:29:20] Speaker 2: you nailed it. And what Christians will say when you
[1:29:23] Speaker 2: talk to Christians about this, they'll say like, well, yeah,
[1:29:25] Speaker 2: that's what cults do. As well, but it was true
[1:29:27] Speaker 2: of Jesus. He's the exception, and so they'll try to
[1:29:30] Speaker 2: special plead their way out of it. Master Michelle, you're
[1:29:34] Speaker 2: good to see you tonight. Fred, thank you for the supertest.
[1:29:36] Speaker 2: Says numbers should be easy to get right. If it's
[1:29:39] Speaker 2: inspired by God, everything should be easy. That's my opinion.
[1:29:42] Speaker 2: I think if God inspired it, he shouldn't have stopped halfway.
[1:29:46] Speaker 2: Like if you're going to inspire the text, just if
[1:29:49] Speaker 2: you're going to do magic, just do all of the
[1:29:51] Speaker 2: magic and make it all true, you know what I mean?
[1:29:55] Speaker 2: Why are you doing half the magic and the term
[1:30:00] Speaker 2: or the kim hold on the Kern?
[1:30:04] Speaker 9: There we go.
[1:30:04] Speaker 2: Sorry, the text is small on the screen. Kurn, thank
[1:30:06] Speaker 2: you for the supertest. It say's funny how much Christians
[1:30:09] Speaker 2: thrive on ambiguity and muddiness and not solid facts, a
[1:30:12] Speaker 2: religion of what if and we can't know for sure,
[1:30:16] Speaker 2: keeping you perpetual anxious. You're all right, And remember the
[1:30:22] Speaker 2: goal of apologetics is not to prove this stuff true.
[1:30:26] Speaker 2: The goal of apologetics is to say it's possible. It's
[1:30:30] Speaker 2: not impossible, you know what I mean. That's really the
[1:30:33] Speaker 2: goal here, right, because you can't prove any of this
[1:30:34] Speaker 2: stuff to be true. And Adele again, thank you so much,
[1:30:38] Speaker 2: Adele for the super ten. I appreciate it, big w
[1:30:40] Speaker 2: rock Hard for Doug is now the one traveling and
[1:30:44] Speaker 2: it gives me the sad. But Justin is cooking and
[1:30:47] Speaker 2: that helps fill the void. Well, listen, best of traveling
[1:30:52] Speaker 2: mercies from Doug to rock Hard for Doug and you're
[1:30:55] Speaker 2: a hubby, Adele, let him know that we're thinking about him.
[1:30:59] Speaker 2: And they remained rock hard, even if you find some
[1:31:03] Speaker 2: turbulence on the way. And Johannah, thank you so much
[1:31:07] Speaker 2: for the supertest. Says no woman should believe in God.
[1:31:09] Speaker 2: The three Holy Books teach men to abuse, disrespect, and
[1:31:15] Speaker 2: treat I think part of it's cut off. I think
[1:31:16] Speaker 2: it says treat with total condescension, condescension all the women
[1:31:22] Speaker 2: in their lives. You're not wrong. I mean, that's the
[1:31:25] Speaker 2: truth of the matter. That's I mean, the Bible is
[1:31:27] Speaker 2: not It's not an egalitarian book. They don't do I mean,
[1:31:34] Speaker 2: look at all the verses about women, all the women.
[1:31:36] Speaker 2: The only thing they're ever praised for is being hot.
[1:31:38] Speaker 2: That's it. They have no value beyond being hot, other
[1:31:41] Speaker 2: than probably thirty one hot and working hard. That's it.
[1:31:46] Speaker 2: Blessed Goku says classic words don't mean words apologetics. That yes,
[1:31:50] Speaker 2: that is the that is the go to classic and
[1:31:54] Speaker 2: Doctor Joe's with us tonight. Thank you so much. Doctor
[1:31:56] Speaker 2: Joe says, from guest sides, it's less of a debate
[1:31:59] Speaker 2: and more of a resurrection attempt for dead arguments. Bizing
[1:32:05] Speaker 2: a good one, Doctor Joe. I liked that one. Thank
[1:32:07] Speaker 2: you so much. That was a good one. And we've
[1:32:10] Speaker 2: got some new members Cain, welcome to the crack and
[1:32:12] Speaker 2: crew and Decks just sent out five d Z memberships,
[1:32:17] Speaker 2: big big w DEX. I appreciate that we're almost through
[1:32:20] Speaker 2: with our superchats guys, so I try not to get
[1:32:22] Speaker 2: backed up tonight. Johanna says, no, man is more intelligent
[1:32:25] Speaker 2: than a woman.
[1:32:26] Speaker 1: Fuck.
[1:32:26] Speaker 2: I agree with that one hundred percent. Yes, we might
[1:32:28] Speaker 2: have different strengths. Women are better at multitasking. Ergo, God
[1:32:32] Speaker 2: should be female. Listen. We have done actual scientific studies.
[1:32:38] Speaker 2: Women are better at multitasking, hand down, That's all there
[1:32:41] Speaker 2: is to it. Cyber Deconstruction. Good to see him, my friend.
[1:32:45] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the superchest. It says, how
[1:32:47] Speaker 2: is a trinity one if Jesus has a physical body
[1:32:50] Speaker 2: and themes Herd doesn't, so we didn't get too much
[1:32:55] Speaker 2: into the trinity topic. But I'm with you a million percent.
[1:32:58] Speaker 2: The fact that Jesus has a mind, will, and a
[1:33:01] Speaker 2: body and isn't somehow a completely separate God is crazy
[1:33:05] Speaker 2: to me. Crazy to me. Also, make sure you're following
[1:33:10] Speaker 2: cyber Deconstruction on YouTube and TikTok and Jimsy. Have you
[1:33:14] Speaker 2: heard anything by Robert P. Jones, a very honest Christian
[1:33:18] Speaker 2: scholar and author that writes about white Christian nationalism in
[1:33:22] Speaker 2: the US? I have not, Jim, I kind of wish
[1:33:24] Speaker 2: I had. Now are they on YouTube? I'd love to
[1:33:28] Speaker 2: know more of what they're saying. We need more Christians
[1:33:30] Speaker 2: speaking out about white Christian nationalism. But no, I apologize, don't.
[1:33:34] Speaker 2: I don't know this particular figure. And Skeptic frog a
[1:33:37] Speaker 2: great name. Thank you for the sixty one six hell
[1:33:39] Speaker 2: NERO says as I'm about to start the OXF the
[1:33:42] Speaker 2: Oxford Study, Bible Love it Are, the Bible viz Project
[1:33:47] Speaker 2: and Skeptic Annotated Bible Good Companion websites. I haven't used
[1:33:51] Speaker 2: Bible Viz, but I am familiar with the Skeptic annotated Bible,
[1:33:55] Speaker 2: and it's good. It's not great. I would make a
[1:33:59] Speaker 2: lot of change to it. It's certainly not done by
[1:34:03] Speaker 2: a scholar, that's obvious. But it is good. It's very good.
[1:34:07] Speaker 2: I would spend your hard earned money on it, no doubt.
[1:34:11] Speaker 2: And Brian says, Moses grifted Israelites. His pen story. Orphan
[1:34:16] Speaker 2: became hero and only person who can talk and see
[1:34:19] Speaker 2: to God Aaron's sons. In Grift number two, God directs
[1:34:25] Speaker 2: offerings of money, sacrifices, blood, rituals, ad flair. Yeah, I agree,
[1:34:30] Speaker 2: it was a grift. Actually, you know, all of these
[1:34:32] Speaker 2: religions start with a grift, and that's just all there
[1:34:35] Speaker 2: is to it. And Moses and Aaron, if there were
[1:34:39] Speaker 2: real people were grifters. I'm with you wholeheartedly, Jam and
[1:34:43] Speaker 2: Jay with us tonight. Get to see it, says guest Math.
[1:34:46] Speaker 2: A mistake plus Clevin gets you home by seven. That's
[1:34:51] Speaker 2: about right. That's Christian Math And Katie, thank you for
[1:34:54] Speaker 2: the supertests. Thank you so much for these streams working
[1:34:56] Speaker 2: through my deconstruction, and your knowledge is super helpful. Okay,
[1:35:00] Speaker 2: thank you so much for supporting the stream. And I'm
[1:35:02] Speaker 2: always trying to learn, always trying to learn, so thank
[1:35:05] Speaker 2: you for being here, and Mike, good to see you tonight,
[1:35:08] Speaker 2: my friend. Thank you so much for the twenty hour
[1:35:10] Speaker 2: super chat. Big w says, glad to see you back cooking.
[1:35:13] Speaker 2: Just another praise for Doug and providing you the wisdom
[1:35:16] Speaker 2: to do horizontal streams. May your sedimentary layers run every deep.
[1:35:21] Speaker 2: But thank you so much. Praise Doug and definitely w
[1:35:25] Speaker 2: on the puns. And we are streaming horizontal and vertical.
[1:35:31] Speaker 2: The horizontal stream is on DZ Debates, the vertical is
[1:35:34] Speaker 2: on my main channel, and last one from Jeremy says.
[1:35:37] Speaker 2: Bart Ammann calls out in his book Armageddon Revelation twenty
[1:35:40] Speaker 2: one to twelve high walls and gates, why do they
[1:35:43] Speaker 2: need security if this is still after judgment days of funny.
[1:35:47] Speaker 2: So this goes to prove what I've been saying for
[1:35:50] Speaker 2: a long time and other authors like Joseph fiene Ford
[1:35:54] Speaker 2: has said in her commentaries, which is that it's pretty
[1:35:57] Speaker 2: clear that Revelation was written in multiple stages by multiple authors.
[1:36:01] Speaker 2: It seems to account for some of the editorial issues.
[1:36:05] Speaker 2: All right, let's get our next guest in here. Nate's
[1:36:08] Speaker 2: been waiting in our YouTube queue. So we got Nate
[1:36:11] Speaker 2: with us. Now, how you doing, Nate? Nate? Did we
[1:36:16] Speaker 2: put you to sleep? My friend, Nate, can you hear us? Nate?
[1:36:26] Speaker 1: No?
[1:36:26] Speaker 2: Yes, no, maybe Nate, you're on buden. I want to
[1:36:32] Speaker 2: send him a message, let him know he's on. He's
[1:36:34] Speaker 2: waited all this time, Nate, Man, can you hear us?
[1:36:50] Speaker 2: Your microphone's muted right now. It shows that your microphone
[1:36:54] Speaker 2: hardware is muted. Okay, sorry, there you go. Yeah, we're
[1:36:58] Speaker 2: good now. Yeah, how you doing?
[1:37:00] Speaker 18: Thank you so much? Yeah, I know you asked the
[1:37:02] Speaker 18: typical questions. Yes, I'm over eighteen. The Bible is ahistorical,
[1:37:07] Speaker 18: so yeah, well I just want to say again, thank
[1:37:12] Speaker 18: you so much for everything. Like I've like I had
[1:37:15] Speaker 18: no idea that the Greek editions of the Bible were
[1:37:20] Speaker 18: like what allowed the New Testament to borrow so many
[1:37:23] Speaker 18: things from the Old in the way that was just that.
[1:37:28] Speaker 18: I also like learned recently that like the King James
[1:37:31] Speaker 18: addition was the thing that basically every denomination pretty much
[1:37:35] Speaker 18: from the eighteen hundred to the nineteen fifties have like interpreted.
[1:37:40] Speaker 18: So like I just am wondering why, like there are
[1:37:44] Speaker 18: so many like you know, denominations out there today if
[1:37:48] Speaker 18: all of them are like based on misinterpretations, because the
[1:37:52] Speaker 18: King James version is a revisionist Bible.
[1:37:55] Speaker 2: So I mean, is a revision Bible. You know, it
[1:37:58] Speaker 2: was revision of the Bishop's Bible. But let's imagine for
[1:38:01] Speaker 2: a second that they all had one English translation. I
[1:38:04] Speaker 2: still think there'd be all these denominations because I think
[1:38:08] Speaker 2: people are picking and choosing the verses that they like.
[1:38:11] Speaker 2: And I think it's also true that sometimes the Bible
[1:38:14] Speaker 2: isn't clear on a particular topic. We'll say, for example, baptism. Right,
[1:38:18] Speaker 2: So the Anabaptist movement they've probably got like they've got
[1:38:22] Speaker 2: to at least have forty five different splinter groups from
[1:38:26] Speaker 2: people saying, well, no, you have to baptize this way. No,
[1:38:28] Speaker 2: you can't do it that way, you got to do
[1:38:29] Speaker 2: it this way, right, And like they're so hell bent
[1:38:32] Speaker 2: on this nonsensical view that they're willing to split over it,
[1:38:36] Speaker 2: even though realistically most of them are reading the same Bible.
[1:38:39] Speaker 2: A lot of them are reading the Geneva Bible. So
[1:38:42] Speaker 2: I don't know if having one Bible would even help.
[1:38:45] Speaker 2: I think people just are disagreeing because the text isn't
[1:38:47] Speaker 2: very clear. Yeah, that's a good point.
[1:38:52] Speaker 18: And I guess I just have another couple of questions, Like,
[1:38:55] Speaker 18: you know, the word deconstruction, there's a philosophical sense and
[1:38:59] Speaker 18: then there's all some more just the kind of like
[1:39:02] Speaker 18: the community. I know that like the way I think
[1:39:05] Speaker 18: of deconstruction. Like in many ways, even just the religious
[1:39:09] Speaker 18: institutions themselves are deconstructionists, like sort of like the people
[1:39:14] Speaker 18: you least expect because they're the ones who have initially,
[1:39:17] Speaker 18: you know, made these dogmatic positions. And I guess my
[1:39:21] Speaker 18: question is like, obviously this is a place for deconstruction,
[1:39:25] Speaker 18: but what is like the best way for like you know,
[1:39:27] Speaker 18: for community and for these things. How to get you know,
[1:39:31] Speaker 18: reintegration the right way if you know that's something that
[1:39:35] Speaker 18: you know or it's just kind of like none of
[1:39:37] Speaker 18: us are really sure how to answer.
[1:39:39] Speaker 2: So that's why we have a discord community for people
[1:39:42] Speaker 2: that are deconstructing. It's just a big community. And when
[1:39:47] Speaker 2: you're in seminary or Bible college, the goal is deconstruction
[1:39:51] Speaker 2: and then they are going to give you the tools
[1:39:53] Speaker 2: to reconstruct in a way that works for you. Like
[1:39:57] Speaker 2: most people are confused because they think you're going to
[1:40:00] Speaker 2: to seminary and they're going to deconstruct you and then
[1:40:02] Speaker 2: they're going to reconstruct you. But that's not really what
[1:40:04] Speaker 2: they do. They most good seminaries give you the tools
[1:40:08] Speaker 2: to be your own theologian rather than trying to teach
[1:40:11] Speaker 2: you what to believe. If you go to a seminary
[1:40:14] Speaker 2: or a bubbla college and they're teaching you this is
[1:40:16] Speaker 2: the correct theology, then I would get far away from
[1:40:19] Speaker 2: that Bible college. That being said, outside of mainstream academia,
[1:40:26] Speaker 2: there's not a lot of places where you can go
[1:40:28] Speaker 2: for deconstruction other than you're already to hear you're it.
[1:40:32] Speaker 18: You know, yeah, I discovered you last week, and you know,
[1:40:36] Speaker 18: it amazes me like how many times, like you know,
[1:40:39] Speaker 18: people are like asking you questions for the first time
[1:40:42] Speaker 18: and you have hours of content where you they're you know,
[1:40:45] Speaker 18: they're asking the same questions like like I just don't
[1:40:48] Speaker 18: know as like an ego thing or it's like I
[1:40:52] Speaker 18: just cannot, for the life of me even begin to think,
[1:40:55] Speaker 18: like how can I just like not even even have
[1:40:59] Speaker 18: suspicion like that, like maybe this person has actually said
[1:41:03] Speaker 18: what I've said because you've literally had so many hours
[1:41:07] Speaker 18: of that like are these people just like they just
[1:41:11] Speaker 18: it's just the Dunning Kruger effect all the way, or
[1:41:13] Speaker 18: is it like they just really think that like the
[1:41:17] Speaker 18: idea that anything that isn't inside their religious group, is
[1:41:22] Speaker 18: anything outside of their religious group is just they don't
[1:41:25] Speaker 18: even have a theory or something.
[1:41:27] Speaker 2: It's like, I think it's a little bit of Dunning Krueger.
[1:41:30] Speaker 2: I think it's also a little bit of the books
[1:41:34] Speaker 2: and the people that they're listening to have prepared them incorrectly. So,
[1:41:38] Speaker 2: for example, when I was a young Christian and I
[1:41:41] Speaker 2: was reading apologetic books, a lot of the framing of
[1:41:44] Speaker 2: the apologetic books is like the atheists are stupid, they
[1:41:47] Speaker 2: don't know anything, their arguments are bad, and then they
[1:41:50] Speaker 2: straw man all the atheist arguments and then they say
[1:41:53] Speaker 2: atheists have no answers for these arguments, right, So then
[1:41:56] Speaker 2: you're like really excited and you're like, oh my gosh,
[1:41:59] Speaker 2: atheists know answer for this. And then like the first
[1:42:03] Speaker 2: time you go to an atheist and make one of
[1:42:05] Speaker 2: these arguments, it turns out they've got lots of answers
[1:42:07] Speaker 2: for it, and they're actually better than the straw men
[1:42:09] Speaker 2: put together by the books. And so what happens is
[1:42:14] Speaker 2: like they come in blind and then they're caught like
[1:42:16] Speaker 2: a deer in the headlights because the books that they're
[1:42:19] Speaker 2: reading are leading them astray. It's giving them a false confidence.
[1:42:23] Speaker 18: I guess it's like also, like how how do people
[1:42:26] Speaker 18: like not like have moral accountability? Like TikTok. Obviously there's
[1:42:31] Speaker 18: a lot of people, but how is it just like
[1:42:34] Speaker 18: naturally that like when people are having PhDs and masters
[1:42:38] Speaker 18: and other people aren't, Like how how could like even
[1:42:42] Speaker 18: like that lead to where we are today? Like I
[1:42:45] Speaker 18: just like I'm not saying like, you know, it's some conspiracy,
[1:42:50] Speaker 18: but like how can so many people be duped when
[1:42:53] Speaker 18: there are actual academic institutions? Like like how is there
[1:42:57] Speaker 18: just this not if the truth is so power full?
[1:43:00] Speaker 18: And like just why isn't it like more wide known
[1:43:04] Speaker 18: if like like why just aren't people like just why
[1:43:08] Speaker 18: isn't society in general just like trusting people who have
[1:43:12] Speaker 18: doctorates over people who are just you know, h torqually,
[1:43:17] Speaker 18: you know very just you know, selling snake oil.
[1:43:21] Speaker 2: Well, I think the problem is like the work that
[1:43:25] Speaker 2: the scholars are putting out are very hard to digest
[1:43:27] Speaker 2: by non scholars, and it's hard for them to cross
[1:43:30] Speaker 2: over into the mainstream because you have to have like
[1:43:33] Speaker 2: a baseline of knowledge. So it's kind of like, you know,
[1:43:36] Speaker 2: I've got a background in a career in electrical engineering,
[1:43:40] Speaker 2: and I design machines. Right. I couldn't just go to
[1:43:43] Speaker 2: a random Joe off the street and start talking to
[1:43:46] Speaker 2: them about machine design. They would have no idea what
[1:43:48] Speaker 2: I'm talking about. I could give them some basic electrical
[1:43:51] Speaker 2: theory because they've seen electricity before, right. So part of
[1:43:56] Speaker 2: the problem with biblical studies is so much of it
[1:43:59] Speaker 2: is high levels, specialized I specialized stuff that when you
[1:44:03] Speaker 2: do talk to normal people, you have to use the
[1:44:05] Speaker 2: lower level. You really have to go shallow, you know
[1:44:09] Speaker 2: what I mean. So like the real good stuff, the
[1:44:12] Speaker 2: real fun stuff that you learn in academia, it is
[1:44:15] Speaker 2: hard to translate that into real world society because they're
[1:44:20] Speaker 2: they're they're already so shallow, they're not you can't just
[1:44:22] Speaker 2: throw them in a deep end.
[1:44:24] Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean, it's just like also, like there's just
[1:44:26] Speaker 18: so much rich stuff that it's like like I feel
[1:44:29] Speaker 18: like I can't unsee these things, like the Epic of
[1:44:32] Speaker 18: Gilgamesh and Anuma Eyelish, Like when like I don't like
[1:44:37] Speaker 18: when I I've talked to others and it's like, I
[1:44:40] Speaker 18: don't know how some of these people can't unsee these things,
[1:44:43] Speaker 18: Like it's like like this this all like like a
[1:44:46] Speaker 18: stunning painting. Like these people are like like I know,
[1:44:51] Speaker 18: maybe this is for like a psychologist, but like what
[1:44:54] Speaker 18: is going on in there? Like what is their like
[1:44:57] Speaker 18: unconscious psyche doing to to not see and process what
[1:45:03] Speaker 18: I'm seeing because it just seems so natural when I
[1:45:06] Speaker 18: see it.
[1:45:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I mean, realistically, no one's reading that right.
[1:45:10] Speaker 2: Christians can even read their Bible, they're not reading extra
[1:45:13] Speaker 2: biblical literature. I think that's part of the problem. And
[1:45:16] Speaker 2: that's why so many people deconstruct when they get to seminary.
[1:45:20] Speaker 2: Is because you have to read the parallel text. You
[1:45:24] Speaker 2: have to learn the language, you have to so like
[1:45:27] Speaker 2: they call cemetery, they call seminary the cemetery for a reason,
[1:45:32] Speaker 2: is because when a lot of people see how the
[1:45:34] Speaker 2: sausage is made, they're not they can't really hold on
[1:45:37] Speaker 2: to the faith anymore. But listen, Yeah, I love to
[1:45:40] Speaker 2: have a longer chat, but we got to keep the debates.
[1:45:42] Speaker 5: I understand.
[1:45:42] Speaker 18: Thank you so much, and yeah, looking forward to all
[1:45:46] Speaker 18: the things you've published.
[1:45:47] Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
[1:45:48] Speaker 2: I think so much. Nate joined the discord friend, Thank you,
[1:45:52] Speaker 2: tears W Nate for deconstructing. It's hard, you know, and
[1:45:58] Speaker 2: I don't think for a lot of people, I don't
[1:46:01] Speaker 2: think they know they're allowed to as well. You see
[1:46:03] Speaker 2: what I'm saying, like they've been programmed to think that
[1:46:06] Speaker 2: they're not allowed to ask difficult questions, or when they
[1:46:10] Speaker 2: do ask difficult questions, their pastor dissuades them. Bean Dogs,
[1:46:15] Speaker 2: good to see your friend. Bean Dog says, let's cook baby,
[1:46:18] Speaker 2: That's exactly what we're going to be doing. And t Y,
[1:46:21] Speaker 2: thank you for the two nine to nine super thanks.
[1:46:23] Speaker 2: I appreciate that. And Larry, thank you so much for
[1:46:26] Speaker 2: the six sixty six big w Larry, I appreciate that.
[1:46:30] Speaker 2: We're gonna try to get Ozzy in here with us.
[1:46:33] Speaker 2: Larry says, thanks for the pretzling guests. So fine man,
[1:46:37] Speaker 2: pretty work we got Listen, we got more pretzeling left
[1:46:41] Speaker 2: to do.
[1:46:42] Speaker 8: Fine man, We're going to see it.
[1:46:44] Speaker 2: Ozzie, I don't know what's happening on your end, but
[1:46:46] Speaker 2: you got a really bad echo.
[1:46:48] Speaker 1: What is that?
[1:46:48] Speaker 2: What's happening Ozzie? I don't know what's happening on your end,
[1:46:52] Speaker 2: but you got a really bad echo.
[1:46:54] Speaker 5: What is that?
[1:46:54] Speaker 2: What's happening, Ozzie. I don't know what's happening on your end, but.
[1:46:57] Speaker 7: You got to.
[1:47:01] Speaker 2: Okay, Ozzie's getting a phone call. Apparently, Ozzie, fix your
[1:47:07] Speaker 2: phone call, wipe away from the app and come back. Well,
[1:47:10] Speaker 2: we'll get it figured out, or just leave. Okay. I
[1:47:14] Speaker 2: guess you couldn't handle it. I still haven't adjusted my
[1:47:17] Speaker 2: green scheme. My Green Scheme screen is still grinding out
[1:47:20] Speaker 2: my teeth. I got to actually adjust that so it's
[1:47:24] Speaker 2: not doing that, or maybe change my color profile. So Ozzie,
[1:47:27] Speaker 2: I don't think you're actually in the box anymore, so
[1:47:29] Speaker 2: let me turn that off. Since you're in the box,
[1:47:32] Speaker 2: but you're clearly not, I'm gonna drop you. Come back
[1:47:35] Speaker 2: when you get your connection. You waited all this time.
[1:47:38] Speaker 2: I want you to actually be able to speak to us.
[1:47:42] Speaker 2: And Mike Bowen thank you so much for the super chat,
[1:47:44] Speaker 2: says always rock hard for Doug, but when the stream
[1:47:47] Speaker 2: is on, I'm busting for Justed. I love it. I
[1:47:52] Speaker 2: love it. That's great. I appreciate that. Good good usage
[1:47:56] Speaker 2: of words, big w and ask good to see you tonight,
[1:48:01] Speaker 2: friend says, we really need and I used to be
[1:48:03] Speaker 2: an atheist counter, You're not wrong. We actually should get
[1:48:06] Speaker 2: and I used to be I used to be an
[1:48:08] Speaker 2: atheist counter. That would be fun. I will try to
[1:48:12] Speaker 2: get Ozzie up here again. And mar Duke is with
[1:48:14] Speaker 2: us tonight. Good to see a Marduke. Thank you for
[1:48:16] Speaker 2: the four nine to nine super Thanks big big w friend,
[1:48:20] Speaker 2: and last one from Boop and Boom. Good to see
[1:48:23] Speaker 2: a boop, says Old Testament prophecy Rob Rock Go team.
[1:48:26] Speaker 2: The Cleveland Browns are for sure gonna win the Super
[1:48:29] Speaker 2: Bowl next year. Surprise they don't. New Testament cope, you
[1:48:33] Speaker 2: nailed it. You nailed it the same way I cope
[1:48:37] Speaker 2: with the paper bag over my head every year. And
[1:48:40] Speaker 2: the Cleveland Browns is the way the New Testament is
[1:48:43] Speaker 2: dealing with the Old Testament prophecies. How you doing aussy.
[1:48:47] Speaker 3: Good?
[1:48:47] Speaker 9: Uh's the echo gone?
[1:48:49] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[1:48:49] Speaker 2: I think we're good.
[1:48:50] Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know how that happens. That's bizarre.
[1:48:53] Speaker 2: Sometimes that happens when the TikTok app is just kind
[1:48:57] Speaker 2: of on the fritz, or like if you get a
[1:49:00] Speaker 2: phone call while you're online.
[1:49:04] Speaker 9: Yeah, I could have been something like that. But so
[1:49:08] Speaker 9: I'm literally I'm here because a good friend of mine
[1:49:11] Speaker 9: asked me to come up and have a conversation with you.
[1:49:14] Speaker 9: I'm a Christian apologist. She said that you're pretty well
[1:49:17] Speaker 9: educated and thought it would be an interesting conversation.
[1:49:21] Speaker 2: Certainly would be interesting. Is your friend a believer or not?
[1:49:25] Speaker 9: Yes, we both are cool.
[1:49:28] Speaker 2: So you gave me sure, So you gave me the
[1:49:31] Speaker 2: background information, So I guess I would start out with
[1:49:33] Speaker 2: the question, is what would be like a good argument
[1:49:36] Speaker 2: or evidence for the Christian God being real?
[1:49:41] Speaker 9: Well, so can we pause on that because I wanted
[1:49:44] Speaker 9: to actually talk about the prompt first.
[1:49:46] Speaker 2: If that's okay, sure, I mean, I figure that is
[1:49:49] Speaker 2: part of the prompt, but go ahead.
[1:49:52] Speaker 9: Well, yeah, so the prompt is your God is imaginary,
[1:49:55] Speaker 9: proved me wrong? And that's always bizarre to me when
[1:49:58] Speaker 9: I see something, because you see people like go to
[1:49:59] Speaker 9: college ca emphasis and make a claim that they prove
[1:50:01] Speaker 9: me wrong. Like immediately, that shouts out to me like
[1:50:05] Speaker 9: shifting the burden of proof. So if you're saying, can
[1:50:08] Speaker 9: you prove it wrong? Well, hold on. What I'm saying
[1:50:12] Speaker 9: is if you're starting with a claim your God is imaginary.
[1:50:15] Speaker 9: Don't you have the burden of proof?
[1:50:17] Speaker 2: We both have burdens of proof here. So my claim
[1:50:19] Speaker 2: is that you can imagine your God and nothing more.
[1:50:23] Speaker 2: Your God seems to exist in your head, and you
[1:50:25] Speaker 2: can't demonstrate your God to exist outside of your head.
[1:50:29] Speaker 9: Okay, can you prove that?
[1:50:31] Speaker 5: Uh?
[1:50:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't do it. So the fact that
[1:50:34] Speaker 2: you can't prove your God to exist outside of your
[1:50:36] Speaker 2: head demonstrates that your God only exists inside your head.
[1:50:41] Speaker 9: So are you are you referring to objective truth?
[1:50:44] Speaker 5: Uh?
[1:50:45] Speaker 2: No, I'm suggesting that the claim I'm making is that
[1:50:48] Speaker 2: your God can only be proven as far as your imagination.
[1:50:54] Speaker 9: Right, And what led you to that conclusion is what I'm.
[1:50:56] Speaker 2: Asking That you can't prove that. You can't prove your
[1:51:00] Speaker 2: Odd to exist outside of your head, which is why,
[1:51:02] Speaker 2: rather than actually giving an argument or evidence for your
[1:51:05] Speaker 2: God existing, you're trying to get out of it and
[1:51:08] Speaker 2: you're trying to burden shift.
[1:51:11] Speaker 9: But you and I have never had a conversation. So
[1:51:13] Speaker 9: how could you like say.
[1:51:14] Speaker 2: That we'll go ahead and try it, then prove me wrong?
[1:51:18] Speaker 9: Well, do you agree that the claim is unfounded?
[1:51:21] Speaker 7: Then?
[1:51:21] Speaker 2: No?
[1:51:23] Speaker 9: Well, I mean, how do you justify that, then we'll
[1:51:25] Speaker 9: prove me wrong. Yeah, and that's the point. That's what
[1:51:28] Speaker 9: I'm saying.
[1:51:28] Speaker 2: You can't do it then, No, No, that's.
[1:51:31] Speaker 9: Not what I said.
[1:51:31] Speaker 2: I'm saying it's not a burden shift. It's my initial claim.
[1:51:37] Speaker 2: My initial claim is proved me wrong, and I don't
[1:51:40] Speaker 2: think you can do it.
[1:51:43] Speaker 1: Right.
[1:51:43] Speaker 9: So, if I said you don't have one hundred dollars
[1:51:46] Speaker 9: in your pocket, prove me wrong, like do I have?
[1:51:51] Speaker 9: Is that a justified belief for me to have to
[1:51:53] Speaker 9: begin with, that you don't have one hundred dollars in
[1:51:55] Speaker 9: your pocket?
[1:51:56] Speaker 2: Well, it depends on how rare that circumstance would be. Right, So,
[1:52:00] Speaker 2: for example, if if you were someone that would have
[1:52:05] Speaker 2: no access to one hundred dollars, then I would say
[1:52:07] Speaker 2: that it's a pretty justifiable claim if one hundred dollars
[1:52:10] Speaker 2: is actually pretty quite easy to get a hold of. Now,
[1:52:13] Speaker 2: if you said, if I said you don't have fifteen
[1:52:18] Speaker 2: pounds of gold in your pocket, I think that would
[1:52:21] Speaker 2: be a claim that requires a whole lot less burden
[1:52:25] Speaker 2: shifting to get around. But you're actually proving my point
[1:52:28] Speaker 2: for me. So the whole time you've been up here,
[1:52:30] Speaker 2: what you've done is you've suggested that you can't actually
[1:52:35] Speaker 2: prove your God outside of your imagination, which, as far
[1:52:38] Speaker 2: as I can tell, just reinforces what I say. Now,
[1:52:41] Speaker 2: that being said, there's lots of good reasons to believe
[1:52:45] Speaker 2: that your God doesn't exist.
[1:52:48] Speaker 9: Okay, but again, even that conclusion is unwarranted. You're assuming,
[1:52:53] Speaker 9: because we haven't got to that conclusion yet, that I
[1:52:55] Speaker 9: can't do it, we'll prove me wrong. Then, well, do
[1:52:58] Speaker 9: you understand that's a nonsense?
[1:52:59] Speaker 2: If you can do it, maybe should do it?
[1:53:01] Speaker 9: Okay? Do you agree that that's a nonsense.
[1:53:03] Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question. No, I don't agree.
[1:53:04] Speaker 2: Can you demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination?
[1:53:09] Speaker 1: Okay?
[1:53:10] Speaker 9: If it's not a non secutor just a yes or no? Yeah,
[1:53:14] Speaker 9: what are your premises just a yes or no?
[1:53:16] Speaker 2: Aussie? Can you demonstrate that your God exists beyond your imagination?
[1:53:21] Speaker 1: Okay?
[1:53:22] Speaker 9: What are your premises that lead to listen?
[1:53:24] Speaker 2: You can burden shift all day long. I talked to
[1:53:27] Speaker 2: apologists way better than you. I'm not gonna let you
[1:53:29] Speaker 2: burden shift all night. Answer yes or no? Are you
[1:53:33] Speaker 2: capable of demonstrating your God to exist outside of your imagination?
[1:53:37] Speaker 2: It requires a yes, no, or I don't know.
[1:53:40] Speaker 9: Your prompt is the one that is making.
[1:53:43] Speaker 2: Okay, So you can't answer the question, then you're incapable.
[1:53:48] Speaker 9: Is that what you believe?
[1:53:50] Speaker 2: I'm asking you?
[1:53:52] Speaker 1: Okay?
[1:53:52] Speaker 9: Is that what you believe?
[1:53:53] Speaker 2: I'm asking you to answer the question. I'm asking are
[1:53:57] Speaker 2: you capable of demonstrating your God to exist, to providing
[1:54:01] Speaker 2: an argument for your God's existence outside of your imagination?
[1:54:04] Speaker 2: Is that something you're capable of doing.
[1:54:08] Speaker 9: I am capable of doing that.
[1:54:09] Speaker 2: O great, well, thank you. That's all you had to
[1:54:11] Speaker 2: say is yes. The correct answer would have been yes.
[1:54:13] Speaker 2: So that's what I'm interested in. I'm interested in the
[1:54:16] Speaker 2: argument or the evidence that would demonstrate your God to
[1:54:18] Speaker 2: exist outside of your imagination. Would you like to get
[1:54:21] Speaker 2: onto that?
[1:54:23] Speaker 1: Okay?
[1:54:24] Speaker 9: Absolutely, as soon as you admit that your prompt is
[1:54:27] Speaker 9: definitely burden burden of proof shifting, it's actually not. Okay,
[1:54:32] Speaker 9: your God is imaginary, proved me wrong. Your your addition
[1:54:35] Speaker 9: of prove me wrong is what makes it shifting the
[1:54:38] Speaker 9: burden of proof.
[1:54:39] Speaker 2: No, it's not a shifting burden of proof if that's
[1:54:42] Speaker 2: my starting point. My starting point is that you can't
[1:54:46] Speaker 2: prove me wrong. A burden shift would be if I
[1:54:49] Speaker 2: made a claim without any further like any further structure
[1:54:53] Speaker 2: after that. If I just said your God does not
[1:54:56] Speaker 2: exist and that was it, and then you came in
[1:54:59] Speaker 2: here and I said, well, prove me wrong, that would
[1:55:02] Speaker 2: be a burden shift. This is the starting point, which
[1:55:05] Speaker 2: means it's not a burden shift. It's a starting point
[1:55:09] Speaker 2: for the burden. So you can cry all you want
[1:55:12] Speaker 2: that you can't demonstrate your God to be real, but
[1:55:14] Speaker 2: our starting point is that you can't prove me wrong,
[1:55:18] Speaker 2: and you're demonstrating that you're afraid to do it.
[1:55:21] Speaker 9: But it doesn't say you can't prove me wrong. It
[1:55:23] Speaker 9: says prove me wrong.
[1:55:24] Speaker 2: Prove me wrong.
[1:55:24] Speaker 9: So if you're making that.
[1:55:27] Speaker 2: Are you going to give me an argument or not?
[1:55:30] Speaker 9: Do you agree that the person making the claim has
[1:55:32] Speaker 9: the burden of proof?
[1:55:33] Speaker 1: Yes or no?
[1:55:34] Speaker 2: It depends on the form of the argument, right, So
[1:55:37] Speaker 2: if we're having like an actual philosophical argument, then all
[1:55:40] Speaker 2: claims the burden of proof is on the person making
[1:55:43] Speaker 2: the claim. I'm making two statements here. One is that
[1:55:46] Speaker 2: your God is measuring, which I can defend. The other
[1:55:50] Speaker 2: is that you can't demonstrate otherwise and you will never
[1:55:54] Speaker 2: be able to demonstrate that, which is why you're terrified
[1:55:57] Speaker 2: of doing it.
[1:55:58] Speaker 9: Okay, we'll start with to start with proving the first one,
[1:56:01] Speaker 9: your God is imaginary. Prove my God is imaginary?
[1:56:03] Speaker 2: Okay. So part of that is where we started, which
[1:56:06] Speaker 2: is you can only imagine your God. You can't actually
[1:56:08] Speaker 2: demonstrate your God to exist in your life. Part number
[1:56:11] Speaker 2: two is that sends you point number two because you're
[1:56:15] Speaker 2: you're terrified of doing it.
[1:56:17] Speaker 9: Okay, that's a non secutor. How are you that embarrassed?
[1:56:20] Speaker 2: Then do it, Ozzie, how are you not to do it?
[1:56:24] Speaker 2: Then do it?
[1:56:27] Speaker 9: So I said, how do you prove my God is imaginary?
[1:56:29] Speaker 9: And you said, because your God is only in your mind.
[1:56:32] Speaker 2: I said, that's only point number one. Trust me, I've
[1:56:34] Speaker 2: got lots of reasons why your God is imaginary. We've
[1:56:36] Speaker 2: just begun. So I just want to just want to
[1:56:39] Speaker 2: point out for the beginning of the conversation that you're
[1:56:42] Speaker 2: that you're unable. You're unable and unwilling to defend your claim,
[1:56:47] Speaker 2: which is that you can prove your God to not
[1:56:50] Speaker 2: be imaginary. So I'll move on to point number two,
[1:56:53] Speaker 2: which is the argument for why your God is imaginary.
[1:56:56] Speaker 2: Your God is imaginary because he has contradictory traits.
[1:57:00] Speaker 9: Are moving on to point number two when you haven't
[1:57:02] Speaker 9: proved point number one.
[1:57:04] Speaker 2: Point number two is for the original claim.
[1:57:08] Speaker 9: Point number two. Point number one.
[1:57:11] Speaker 2: Because point number one is the fact that you're unwilling
[1:57:14] Speaker 2: to demonstrate the thing that you claim to be true.
[1:57:18] Speaker 2: That's not what non secord. It means. Point number two
[1:57:20] Speaker 2: in my argument. Point number two in my argument is
[1:57:26] Speaker 2: means point number two in my argument is defending the
[1:57:30] Speaker 2: original claim, which is why your specific God doesn't actually exist.
[1:57:35] Speaker 2: Would you like me to give you the argument for
[1:57:37] Speaker 2: why your God doesn't exist? We're not there yet, We
[1:57:44] Speaker 2: literally are there. You you've been trying to this entire time.
[1:57:47] Speaker 2: You've been trying to get me to make a case
[1:57:50] Speaker 2: for why you're a god does not exist, and we're
[1:57:52] Speaker 2: finally there. Now you don't want me to do it.
[1:57:54] Speaker 2: It sounds to me like you don't want to engage
[1:57:57] Speaker 2: in a good faith dialogue no matter what. So let
[1:57:59] Speaker 2: me just number one, So just sover clear. Point number
[1:58:05] Speaker 2: one is that you're unable to defend your claim, which
[1:58:09] Speaker 2: is that your God is demonstrable outside of your imagination.
[1:58:14] Speaker 2: You're unable or unwilling to defend that claim. That was
[1:58:16] Speaker 2: point number one and you're demonstrating to be true. So
[1:58:19] Speaker 2: I moved on to point number two since you're unwilling
[1:58:22] Speaker 2: to engage in point number one. Point number two is, yes,
[1:58:26] Speaker 2: I have lots of arguments for why your specific God
[1:58:29] Speaker 2: is not real. Would you like to hear the arguments
[1:58:32] Speaker 2: for that or do you want to run away from
[1:58:34] Speaker 2: that like a coward?
[1:58:36] Speaker 9: I would like you to prove point number one before
[1:58:38] Speaker 9: moving on.
[1:58:38] Speaker 2: Can you you proved point number one?
[1:58:41] Speaker 9: How did I prove that I don't have? How did
[1:58:45] Speaker 9: I prove that God doesn't exist apart from my imagination?
[1:58:47] Speaker 2: Point number one is that you are unable to demonstrate
[1:58:50] Speaker 2: God outside of your imagination. If you could do it,
[1:58:53] Speaker 2: you would have just fucking done it already. If I
[1:58:55] Speaker 2: could do it, I would have done it already. The
[1:58:57] Speaker 2: fact of the matter is you're not doing it, which
[1:59:00] Speaker 2: is why you won't do it, which is why I've
[1:59:02] Speaker 2: moved on to point number two, which is defending my
[1:59:05] Speaker 2: main argument, which is why your specific God doesn't exist.
[1:59:10] Speaker 2: Would you like so? Would you like to have an
[1:59:12] Speaker 2: actual conversation on anything substantive or do you want to
[1:59:16] Speaker 2: dance around bullshit? Claims that you don't like the way
[1:59:20] Speaker 2: I've structured my debate.
[1:59:23] Speaker 9: No, I don't care how your structure it.
[1:59:24] Speaker 2: Okay, So do you want to get onto something of substance?
[1:59:27] Speaker 9: Do you want to let me finish?
[1:59:29] Speaker 4: No?
[1:59:30] Speaker 2: No, no, I don't. I want you to engage in
[1:59:34] Speaker 2: a dialogue of substance. Nobody's afraid and nobody's kicking you.
[1:59:40] Speaker 2: You're going to run like a coward like everyone else.
[1:59:42] Speaker 2: So I want to have a dialogue on the actual substance.
[1:59:46] Speaker 2: I want to stop having a stupid dialogue on you
[1:59:50] Speaker 2: don't like the way I've structured my sentences or my argument.
[1:59:53] Speaker 2: I want to have the dialogue. Would you like to
[1:59:57] Speaker 2: have the dialogue about why your god, God does not exist?
[2:00:01] Speaker 2: Is that something you'd like to do?
[2:00:04] Speaker 9: Absolutely prove God doesn't exist?
[2:00:06] Speaker 2: You know your specific God?
[2:00:09] Speaker 9: Yeah, the God of the God of the Bible.
[2:00:10] Speaker 2: Fantastic? Is it your belief that the God of the
[2:00:13] Speaker 2: Bible is all knowing?
[2:00:15] Speaker 1: Okay?
[2:00:16] Speaker 9: Asking me a question isn't proving that God doesn't exist.
[2:00:19] Speaker 1: Listen to me.
[2:00:20] Speaker 2: I have to know exactly what you believe about God
[2:00:22] Speaker 2: before I can take the argument against your God. So
[2:00:27] Speaker 2: do you believe according to your reading of the scriptures
[2:00:30] Speaker 2: that God is all knowing, yes, okay. Do you believe,
[2:00:35] Speaker 2: according to your reading of the scriptures that God is
[2:00:37] Speaker 2: all powerful?
[2:00:39] Speaker 9: God is God can do anything logically possible. I wouldn't
[2:00:44] Speaker 9: say all powerful.
[2:00:45] Speaker 2: Do you believe, according to your reading of the scriptures
[2:00:48] Speaker 2: that God is all good?
[2:00:51] Speaker 9: God is perfectly moral?
[2:00:52] Speaker 1: Yes?
[2:00:53] Speaker 2: Fair enough? Do you think he's perfectly just?
[2:00:57] Speaker 1: Yes?
[2:00:57] Speaker 2: Okay? And according to your reading of the Bible, Bible,
[2:01:00] Speaker 2: if the Bible says things that are untrue, what would
[2:01:04] Speaker 2: that say about your God? Like? Is it hypothetical? Keep
[2:01:07] Speaker 2: in mind, if the Bible said things that were not true,
[2:01:10] Speaker 2: what would that mean for your God?
[2:01:13] Speaker 5: Well?
[2:01:14] Speaker 9: What do you mean by not true? Because there's things
[2:01:15] Speaker 9: in the Bible that people have said in the Bible
[2:01:18] Speaker 9: that we're not true, not true.
[2:01:21] Speaker 2: If God or Jesus or the author of the Gospel
[2:01:25] Speaker 2: says something that is just flatly not true, what does
[2:01:30] Speaker 2: that mean for you in your theology?
[2:01:34] Speaker 9: Well, depend on the claim itself.
[2:01:37] Speaker 2: So if Jesus says something that's not true, you don't
[2:01:40] Speaker 2: know what that means.
[2:01:42] Speaker 9: Well, I don't know that Jesus ever said anything that
[2:01:45] Speaker 9: was not true. I believe everything Jesus said is true.
[2:01:48] Speaker 2: Let me so let me start from the beginning. Do
[2:01:49] Speaker 2: you believe the Bible is an errant? Yes? Or non?
[2:01:52] Speaker 9: No?
[2:01:53] Speaker 2: Okay, that's all I needed and okay, so let's get
[2:01:56] Speaker 2: onto the actual arguments. So, for example, this idea that God. Actually,
[2:02:01] Speaker 2: let me clear up on another thing. Do you think
[2:02:02] Speaker 2: that your God exists outside of space and time and whatnot?
[2:02:07] Speaker 9: God exists ubiquitously outside of space and time. That's ubiquitous, right, Well.
[2:02:14] Speaker 2: Not necessarily ubiquitous, just means it's everywhere, right everywhere? Yeah,
[2:02:19] Speaker 2: I'm talking about outside of space and time.
[2:02:23] Speaker 9: God exists everywhere that's possible for God to exist.
[2:02:28] Speaker 2: Okay, you can avoid the question. We know what you mean.
[2:02:30] Speaker 2: So anyways, So argument number one then against your God
[2:02:34] Speaker 2: is that your God is not all good. You want
[2:02:35] Speaker 2: to hear the argument I do. Okay, can it all
[2:02:40] Speaker 2: all good? God cause unnecessary suffering?
[2:02:45] Speaker 9: Well you're getting in this very subjective harness. Now, First
[2:02:48] Speaker 9: of all, what do you define is good?
[2:02:50] Speaker 2: I've defined good as not containing unnecessary suffering. Can you
[2:02:54] Speaker 2: give me an example where unnecessary sufferings every good?
[2:02:58] Speaker 9: Hold on that? Give me your definition of good again.
[2:03:03] Speaker 2: My definition of good excludes unnecessary suffering. Does your definition
[2:03:10] Speaker 2: of good include unnecessary suffering? It's crazy that you can't
[2:03:16] Speaker 2: actually answer my question, Ozzie. I'm asking you a simple question.
[2:03:20] Speaker 2: Can you be all good while causing unnecessary suffering? And
[2:03:24] Speaker 2: you're trying to give me a politician's answer. What I
[2:03:27] Speaker 2: need is a yes or no no.
[2:03:30] Speaker 9: How did you reach the conclusion that your definition of
[2:03:32] Speaker 9: good is objective? If you can keep saying I'm avoiding
[2:03:35] Speaker 9: the questions, I'm answering the questions.
[2:03:38] Speaker 2: I told you my definition of good excludes unnecessary suffering,
[2:03:44] Speaker 2: which is why I'm asking you to clarify your definition
[2:03:47] Speaker 2: of good. Does your definition of good include or exclude
[2:03:52] Speaker 2: unnecessary suffering? Because it might be that we have different
[2:03:56] Speaker 2: ideas of what good means, So please tell me does
[2:04:00] Speaker 2: your definition of good include or exclude unnecessary suffering?
[2:04:05] Speaker 9: Okay, my definition of good is not my definition of good. Okay,
[2:04:09] Speaker 9: I don't.
[2:04:09] Speaker 2: Care whose it is. Give me the definition you're working with.
[2:04:14] Speaker 9: Okay, everything that correlates to the perfect moral nature of
[2:04:19] Speaker 9: God is what is good? Yes, everything does.
[2:04:22] Speaker 2: But does it include unnecessary suffering? That was the question.
[2:04:27] Speaker 9: If there is unnecessary suffering that exists, it's not because
[2:04:31] Speaker 9: of God. It would not be from God.
[2:04:34] Speaker 2: My question is, can somebody be all good while causing
[2:04:40] Speaker 2: unnecessary suffering? I'm not giving you the argument yet. I'm
[2:04:44] Speaker 2: asking you a question.
[2:04:47] Speaker 9: Okay, repeat it one more time because I just want
[2:04:52] Speaker 9: to make sure I'm asking the right question.
[2:04:53] Speaker 2: Can somebody be all good and then also cause unnecessary suffering?
[2:05:01] Speaker 7: No?
[2:05:02] Speaker 2: Thank you, that's all. Listen. You wasted five minutes on that.
[2:05:04] Speaker 2: All you had to say was no five minutes ago. Okay,
[2:05:07] Speaker 2: So we both agree that part of being all good
[2:05:10] Speaker 2: means that you don't cause unnecessary suffering. Now let's get
[2:05:14] Speaker 2: on to the actual argument of natural evil. So in
[2:05:18] Speaker 2: your interpretation, then why do we have natural disasters that
[2:05:22] Speaker 2: cause what I would classify as unnatural or unnecessary natural suffering?
[2:05:28] Speaker 9: Okay, but you agree that's subjective?
[2:05:30] Speaker 1: Right?
[2:05:31] Speaker 2: Listen? Everything subjective. We design what words mean.
[2:05:34] Speaker 1: Okay?
[2:05:35] Speaker 9: Is that statement subjective? Everything is subjective?
[2:05:38] Speaker 2: All things that are in the English language are subjective
[2:05:42] Speaker 2: because we've determined what the words mean, which means it
[2:05:45] Speaker 2: is by definition subjective. So I'm asking you, in your
[2:05:49] Speaker 2: worldview math, in your worldview, what is what is the
[2:05:54] Speaker 2: explanation Aussie? Listen, I'm not going to let you dodge
[2:05:57] Speaker 2: every single question. You can cry all you want about
[2:06:00] Speaker 2: not wanting to answer the question, but I will ask
[2:06:03] Speaker 2: you the same question five hundred times until you actually
[2:06:06] Speaker 2: answer it. You're not going to be a coward here, Listen.
[2:06:10] Speaker 2: I know you're cowardly. I know you don't have any
[2:06:12] Speaker 2: actually holy spirit power because you're a coward. So it's
[2:06:16] Speaker 2: just so, it's.
[2:06:17] Speaker 9: Your statements challenge. Go ahead and kick me.
[2:06:19] Speaker 2: It wasn't a statement, ass whole. It was a question.
[2:06:23] Speaker 2: I'm asking you. Do you have an explanation for natural disasters?
[2:06:27] Speaker 2: It's not a statement. It is a question that you've dodged.
[2:06:31] Speaker 2: Do you have an answer for it?
[2:06:33] Speaker 9: Okay? So when you say natural disasters are unnecessarily harmful
[2:06:38] Speaker 9: or causing unnecessary harm, I'm asking you, is that objectively true?
[2:06:44] Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if it's objectively true. I'm asking you,
[2:06:48] Speaker 2: do you believe that there's an explanation for the natural disasters?
[2:06:51] Speaker 2: And do you think they're necessary?
[2:06:54] Speaker 9: Okay? So do you believe there is objective truth?
[2:06:57] Speaker 2: I'm asking you the question. You're going to answer it
[2:07:00] Speaker 2: or ask you one hundred times, so you do. Do
[2:07:02] Speaker 2: you believe that natural disasters are necessary? Is objective You're
[2:07:07] Speaker 2: not going to reframe every single question I ask you,
[2:07:10] Speaker 2: do you believe that natural disasters are necessary? Listen, you
[2:07:13] Speaker 2: can be you can be a coward all you want.
[2:07:15] Speaker 2: It's not a statement, it's a question. You're not challenging.
[2:07:19] Speaker 2: You're not challenging my statement. You're running from my question.
[2:07:22] Speaker 2: My question was really easy. Do you believe that natural
[2:07:25] Speaker 2: disasters cause unnecessary suffering?
[2:07:31] Speaker 9: You just don't want your statements challenge.
[2:07:33] Speaker 2: I want you to answer my questions. You're not challenging
[2:07:36] Speaker 2: my statement. I haven't made a statement yet. You haven't
[2:07:40] Speaker 2: heard it. You haven't made you haven't made an argument
[2:07:43] Speaker 2: against my statement. You're running for my question. Just answer
[2:07:46] Speaker 2: the question, do you believe that natural disasters are necessary
[2:07:50] Speaker 2: or unnecessary?
[2:07:51] Speaker 9: If you are so confident in your position, I'm confident.
[2:07:55] Speaker 2: That you're too cowardly to actually engage in dialogue. So
[2:07:59] Speaker 2: answer the questiones, do you believe that natural disasters are
[2:08:03] Speaker 2: necessary or unnecessary?
[2:08:05] Speaker 9: You have over six hundred people listening to you.
[2:08:07] Speaker 2: Why are way way more than six hundred. I've got
[2:08:10] Speaker 2: about twenty five hundred people watching this between YouTube and TikTok,
[2:08:13] Speaker 2: and they're watching you desperately avoid answering any question possible.
[2:08:18] Speaker 2: So back at the bar, the question is again, do
[2:08:21] Speaker 2: you believe that natural disasters are necessary?
[2:08:24] Speaker 9: If you are so confident in your position?
[2:08:27] Speaker 2: So I'll ask you for the last time, since you're
[2:08:29] Speaker 2: too much of a coward, I'm not going to ask
[2:08:31] Speaker 2: you again. Will you answer my question about natural disasters
[2:08:35] Speaker 2: being necessary or unnecessary.
[2:08:38] Speaker 9: If you are so conscious?
[2:08:39] Speaker 2: So you're not, okay, Well, thank you for letting us
[2:08:42] Speaker 2: know that you have nothing to offer. You're welcome to
[2:08:44] Speaker 2: come back when you're ready to have an actual adult conversation.
[2:08:47] Speaker 2: It's clear that you're not prepared for that. Shit, how
[2:08:51] Speaker 2: hard would it be just to say yes or no?
[2:08:54] Speaker 2: He's terrified of engaging in the actual dialogue. No idea,
[2:08:58] Speaker 2: what's happening? All right, Let's let me grab a couple
[2:09:01] Speaker 2: of Superchat's friends and then we'll move on to our
[2:09:04] Speaker 2: next guest. Uh Kenosi says God is a man made concept.
[2:09:10] Speaker 2: I agree, you're focused only on the Abrahamic concept. No,
[2:09:14] Speaker 2: I'm not. In some culture an animal can be God.
[2:09:17] Speaker 2: There's even an acon rock God. You have no idea.
[2:09:21] Speaker 2: You haven't been watching my stream at all, Kenosi. I
[2:09:25] Speaker 2: will do literally any anti god concept. The Abrahamic God
[2:09:30] Speaker 2: is just the most popular, which is why we're endlessly
[2:09:32] Speaker 2: talking about it mostly gizzards. Thank you for the superchat.
[2:09:36] Speaker 2: W sixty six says I used to be an atheist
[2:09:38] Speaker 2: like you to. I took an arrow to the brain. Yeah,
[2:09:42] Speaker 2: you nailed it. And Texas Pandamlory Good to see you again,
[2:09:47] Speaker 2: says Doug's prophecy came true. It always does it always
[2:09:50] Speaker 2: Thug you prophesied that this would happen, and here it is.
[2:09:54] Speaker 2: Pretzels and Brian says, Anti present your evidence. This is embarrassed, Anti,
[2:10:01] Speaker 2: I mean ozsy Aussie, present your evidence. First of all,
[2:10:04] Speaker 2: he wasn't willing to present his evidence. He wasn't willing
[2:10:06] Speaker 2: to answer questions. All he wanted to do was endlessly
[2:10:10] Speaker 2: redirect the conversation into like stupid gotchas, because it's all listen,
[2:10:16] Speaker 2: preseppers have no argument, they have nothing. All they have
[2:10:19] Speaker 2: is like dumb gatchas and avoidance tactics. Chip says. The
[2:10:23] Speaker 2: problem today is knowledge is growing exponentially faster than human cognition,
[2:10:28] Speaker 2: and learning structures can't keep I think you mean can't
[2:10:31] Speaker 2: keep up. Well, that is true. Like they talk about
[2:10:35] Speaker 2: living being in the age of information. I think there's
[2:10:39] Speaker 2: an understatement. The amount of information we have available to
[2:10:42] Speaker 2: us is mind boggling, which is why it's so much
[2:10:46] Speaker 2: fun to learn. Like you never get to the end
[2:10:48] Speaker 2: of it, like you never stop learning. It's amazing and godless.
[2:10:53] Speaker 2: Good to see you time. Thank you for the super tests.
[2:10:54] Speaker 2: It's folks who are deconstructing can always go to Freedom
[2:10:57] Speaker 2: from Religion. I agree. Actually, and my friend Josh, you
[2:11:02] Speaker 2: know rock hard for Doug, just joined their Freedom for
[2:11:04] Speaker 2: Religion foundation. He's going to be helping people out. And
[2:11:07] Speaker 2: Lord farquaad great name. It says funny how what I
[2:11:10] Speaker 2: used to believe is wrong morally, factually, scientifically, and even
[2:11:13] Speaker 2: the mythology borrows from others. I was lied to as
[2:11:16] Speaker 2: a child. Yeah, we all were. I think it was
[2:11:20] Speaker 2: in good faith. I don't think they meant to lead
[2:11:22] Speaker 2: us astray, but they certainly did. And Aras thank you
[2:11:25] Speaker 2: for the fight. Our supertend says. So when basketball players
[2:11:28] Speaker 2: are passing the rock around, they are sharing the praise
[2:11:31] Speaker 2: of Doug's That's why basketball is one of Doug's favorite rituals.
[2:11:35] Speaker 2: I agree. That's why they say pass me the rock.
[2:11:37] Speaker 2: It's all about Doug. Guys, the further you look into everything,
[2:11:41] Speaker 2: it's always about Doug. That's just that's the facts of
[2:11:44] Speaker 2: the matter. Doug is the rock solid truth and there's
[2:11:50] Speaker 2: no way around that. All Right, we're gonna get another
[2:11:52] Speaker 2: guest in here. Just a second, give me a second,
[2:11:56] Speaker 2: half a second, three quarter of a second, Tyler, thank
[2:12:00] Speaker 2: you for the ten hour super chat. Big w says,
[2:12:02] Speaker 2: I feel Dug in this chili tonight.
[2:12:06] Speaker 5: If you're.
[2:12:08] Speaker 2: That's a quote from I Feel God in this Chili's tonight.
[2:12:11] Speaker 2: But shit, what was that was that? Talladega Knights. I'm
[2:12:13] Speaker 2: trying to remember where that quote came from. That's a
[2:12:15] Speaker 2: really good one, though, shit, and now I forget where
[2:12:19] Speaker 2: it came from. It's such a good one. Super Sweaty
[2:12:22] Speaker 2: nerds with us tonight. Good to see a Sweaty says,
[2:12:25] Speaker 2: asking if everything is subjective is objectively true? Is a
[2:12:29] Speaker 2: disingenuous attempt at question begging it really is. He was
[2:12:33] Speaker 2: hoping to find some like a really stupid gotcha. He
[2:12:36] Speaker 2: couldn't do it. He just kept doing avoidance tactics rather
[2:12:39] Speaker 2: than engaging in the actual conversation. And Penelope is with us.
[2:12:43] Speaker 2: Good to see a Penelope. Thank you for the ten hours,
[2:12:45] Speaker 2: says looking forward to the day when con artist's apologists
[2:12:48] Speaker 2: have to get a real job instead of spinning yarn
[2:12:50] Speaker 2: and fleecing the sheep. It's funny how he came in
[2:12:53] Speaker 2: really confident as being an apologist and he left just
[2:12:58] Speaker 2: being a coward. It's funny how that that always seems
[2:13:00] Speaker 2: to be the case. And Josh, thank you for the supertend,
[2:13:03] Speaker 2: says guest, is a coward?
[2:13:04] Speaker 5: Do to bird?
[2:13:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, you nailed it, and uh pj thank you so
[2:13:10] Speaker 2: much for the supertest, says God's Not Dead movie. Uh night,
[2:13:13] Speaker 2: when we should do a God's Not Dead movie and
[2:13:16] Speaker 2: do some apologetics on it, Orge, some anti apologetics on it,
[2:13:19] Speaker 2: that'd be really good and helping Mega says his friends.
[2:13:23] Speaker 2: His friend got her revenge praise Doug. I think that's
[2:13:26] Speaker 2: what was happening. Somebody was setting him up. How you
[2:13:30] Speaker 2: doing woke? Woke?
[2:13:36] Speaker 9: Woke?
[2:13:37] Speaker 2: You're really quiet? Can you get closer to your phone?
[2:13:41] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[2:13:54] Speaker 1: Okay? Is that clear?
[2:13:55] Speaker 2: That's better? Yeah? I appreciate that. Also, Lady Lennox, thank
[2:13:59] Speaker 2: you for the subscription. And on TikTok, I appreciate that.
[2:14:01] Speaker 1: So woke?
[2:14:01] Speaker 2: Are you at least eighteen? And are you a believer, yes,
[2:14:05] Speaker 2: and yes? Cool? And what God do you believe in,
[2:14:11] Speaker 2: the God of the Bible. Cool? It would be the
[2:14:14] Speaker 2: most convincing evidence or argument for the Bible God being real.
[2:14:19] Speaker 1: Got his word?
[2:14:21] Speaker 2: Sure? And what about the word demonstrats that God is real?
[2:14:27] Speaker 1: The origins story. I feel like a lot of science
[2:14:31] Speaker 1: proves the origin story of the Holy Text.
[2:14:35] Speaker 2: Can you give an example?
[2:14:39] Speaker 1: So something I've always kind of flowed around and haven't
[2:14:41] Speaker 1: really got a good answer for was a lunar recession.
[2:14:46] Speaker 1: It kind of destroys the whole evolution scene and theory evolution.
[2:14:51] Speaker 2: Has nothing to do with the moon, I mean other
[2:14:56] Speaker 2: than our sleep.
[2:14:57] Speaker 1: Cycle, right, But just so, like long story, short, lunary recession,
[2:15:04] Speaker 1: I mean, based on the math, how it maths out
[2:15:08] Speaker 1: is if the world was as large or I'm sorry,
[2:15:11] Speaker 1: as old as it you know, written in mainstream science,
[2:15:16] Speaker 1: the moon would have you know, practically been up on
[2:15:19] Speaker 1: the Earth, you know, several billions of years ago, and
[2:15:22] Speaker 1: that we just don't evidence well because the lunar recession
[2:15:26] Speaker 1: due to lunary sssion? Are you familiar with that subject that?
[2:15:29] Speaker 10: I mean?
[2:15:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean like when you work the numbers like
[2:15:34] Speaker 1: it numbers, the moon so with the moon receding away
[2:15:42] Speaker 1: from us, recessing away from us rather uh in this status.
[2:15:46] Speaker 1: I mean, we can work the math backwards and see
[2:15:48] Speaker 1: that it was at one point closer than what it
[2:15:51] Speaker 1: you know, what mainstream.
[2:15:53] Speaker 2: Says for how long?
[2:15:58] Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure. It's like the scenario. The
[2:16:00] Speaker 1: other analogy, the thought experience goes along as if you
[2:16:03] Speaker 1: walked into a room and saw a candle burning, you
[2:16:05] Speaker 1: really wouldn't know anything other than you know that the
[2:16:08] Speaker 1: candle was lit and that it was burning. So like
[2:16:11] Speaker 1: by you know, reverse enginetineering its extrapolations, you can deduct
[2:16:16] Speaker 1: and see how fast does the candle burn? But again
[2:16:19] Speaker 1: that won't answer the question when was the candle lit?
[2:16:22] Speaker 1: Nor will it answer the question how tall was the candle?
[2:16:25] Speaker 5: Right?
[2:16:25] Speaker 1: So, I mean like scenarios like that, dynamics like that
[2:16:28] Speaker 1: kind of you know, leave an unknown for a man
[2:16:31] Speaker 1: to figure out. But when we turn to guy's word,
[2:16:34] Speaker 1: it kind of clearly lays it out for us, Like
[2:16:36] Speaker 1: the Origin story.
[2:16:37] Speaker 2: I don't think the Bible gets a lot of stuff.
[2:16:39] Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's so, I mean, it's this guy's word,
[2:16:45] Speaker 1: and if you like got an idea of who God
[2:16:47] Speaker 1: is like, how could he really put himself into a book.
[2:16:50] Speaker 1: I think a lot of people just lean on the
[2:16:52] Speaker 1: book too much and they look for everything to come
[2:16:55] Speaker 1: from it.
[2:16:56] Speaker 2: How much of the.
[2:17:00] Speaker 1: I would say it's.
[2:17:00] Speaker 2: All true, one hundred percent of it?
[2:17:05] Speaker 1: Well, like the last guest said, I mean, there's some
[2:17:07] Speaker 1: things in there that stated that to not be true.
[2:17:10] Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so it's not one hundred percent of it.
[2:17:14] Speaker 1: Well, like, but it exposes, like it exposes the untrue
[2:17:18] Speaker 1: parts and the true parts.
[2:17:20] Speaker 2: Well, if it has untrue parts, then it means it's
[2:17:22] Speaker 2: not all true. That's just definitionly accurate. Okay, So I'll
[2:17:29] Speaker 2: guess I'll start the beginning. Is the Bible one hundred
[2:17:32] Speaker 2: percent true?
[2:17:34] Speaker 1: No?
[2:17:34] Speaker 2: Okay? What percent is true?
[2:17:35] Speaker 1: Trustworthy? I would say it's ninety nine percent truth and
[2:17:40] Speaker 1: one hundred percent trustworthy.
[2:17:42] Speaker 2: Oh, really interesting? Do rabbits chew cut? Or what about
[2:17:45] Speaker 2: rock badgers do that you cut?
[2:17:49] Speaker 4: Oh?
[2:17:50] Speaker 1: You know, I haven't looked that one up. I'm not
[2:17:52] Speaker 1: even familiar with that term. And so, like, I mean,
[2:17:54] Speaker 1: there's a lot of translations of the Bible, and right
[2:17:57] Speaker 1: now we're kind of like in a golden era where
[2:17:59] Speaker 1: you can just pick the best translation for you to
[2:18:01] Speaker 1: read and get really good understanding. But I am aware
[2:18:05] Speaker 1: of that scripture, I'm just not familiar with the terms.
[2:18:07] Speaker 1: I haven't looked it up, haven't had interest to look
[2:18:09] Speaker 1: it up.
[2:18:10] Speaker 2: Well, the definition of cud is pretty well known in
[2:18:13] Speaker 2: English language. The idiom that we get in Hebrew means
[2:18:17] Speaker 2: to regurgitate or to bring up again, referring to bring
[2:18:21] Speaker 2: up from the stomach. Chewing the cud in the Hebrew
[2:18:26] Speaker 2: Bible just refers to regrititating your food and chewing it
[2:18:29] Speaker 2: a second time.
[2:18:32] Speaker 1: Oh, so what's that about?
[2:18:35] Speaker 2: Well, the question, no, it's not a sin. In Leviticus eleven,
[2:18:40] Speaker 2: it says that rock badgers and rabbits chew their cud,
[2:18:42] Speaker 2: but they don't.
[2:18:46] Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I don't know what to say about that.
[2:18:50] Speaker 1: I mean, is that like a unarguable fact. I mean,
[2:18:53] Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure somewhere in the world that it seems
[2:18:55] Speaker 1: very reasonable for me, an, don't want to do that.
[2:18:57] Speaker 2: No, their entire biology. You would have to change, that,
[2:19:00] Speaker 2: have to change to either a multi chambered stomach or
[2:19:03] Speaker 2: a fermenting stomach. And neither one of them do that.
[2:19:09] Speaker 1: And we know that, like they've never done that, like
[2:19:12] Speaker 1: not from a certain region of the world, like there's
[2:19:14] Speaker 1: not a particular rabbit that does that.
[2:19:17] Speaker 4: No.
[2:19:17] Speaker 2: In fact, rock Badger has completely lacked the ability to
[2:19:20] Speaker 2: regurgitate at all.
[2:19:23] Speaker 1: Is it possible that animal was misdiagnosed, no, miscategorized. I
[2:19:30] Speaker 1: mean I don't. That doesn't that doesn't get That doesn't
[2:19:34] Speaker 1: make me, not even a little bit, throw the Bible
[2:19:36] Speaker 1: to the side and say I saw a fake or
[2:19:38] Speaker 1: I saw the joke.
[2:19:39] Speaker 2: Well, I had never said it is all a joke.
[2:19:41] Speaker 2: What I'm saying is I don't think the Bible is
[2:19:43] Speaker 2: good historically. I don't think it's good. For example, in history, right,
[2:19:47] Speaker 2: Adam and Eve theoretically lived six thousand years ago, but
[2:19:51] Speaker 2: we have human settlements from well past ten and twelve
[2:19:56] Speaker 2: thousand years ago that they were already doing farming and agriculture.
[2:20:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that could be true and
[2:20:04] Speaker 1: not compromise the Bible with not even a little bit.
[2:20:09] Speaker 1: I think it can be true because the Bible documents,
[2:20:12] Speaker 1: particularly the story of the Hebrew people or the Israelites
[2:20:16] Speaker 1: or the Hebrew Israelites, whatever you know category they are in,
[2:20:21] Speaker 1: you know, God's chosen people. It's pretty much their story.
[2:20:24] Speaker 1: And I understand, like other of the first humans. You know,
[2:20:31] Speaker 1: I personally so the Bible. I believe the Bible. I
[2:20:34] Speaker 1: trust the Bible is true and I believe it. But
[2:20:37] Speaker 1: me personally humans according to the Bible, Yes, the Bible.
[2:20:44] Speaker 2: Yes, do you believe that?
[2:20:47] Speaker 1: I personally believe according to the Bible, Adam and he
[2:20:49] Speaker 1: was the first people of the Hebrews.
[2:20:52] Speaker 2: There are other peoples before Adam.
[2:20:56] Speaker 1: I could work with that. You know. It doesn't like
[2:20:59] Speaker 1: take away my faith or anything. It's just I understand
[2:21:01] Speaker 1: this is a story for a particular people by their God.
[2:21:07] Speaker 2: Well, the problem is the Bible says that they're the
[2:21:10] Speaker 2: parents of all humanity.
[2:21:14] Speaker 1: Great, it also says after the flood of Noah, like
[2:21:17] Speaker 1: all man it come from you know, Noah and his
[2:21:19] Speaker 1: sons as well. So we're kind of like, you know it.
[2:21:27] Speaker 2: So the Bible can't be can't be true? Then?
[2:21:32] Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's it's still true. It could still be
[2:21:34] Speaker 1: true to say that all humanity comes from Adam and Eve.
[2:21:39] Speaker 1: But to also say that, you know, after the reset,
[2:21:43] Speaker 1: all humanity comes from Noah and his sons, I mean
[2:21:46] Speaker 1: it's still kind of holding true.
[2:21:48] Speaker 2: Well, then, how in the world did we have human
[2:21:51] Speaker 2: settlements twelve thousand years ago.
[2:21:57] Speaker 1: Well, I believe that those settlements was outside of the
[2:22:01] Speaker 1: area where the Bible was being documented. You know, that
[2:22:04] Speaker 1: will be part of their culture and history. And if
[2:22:07] Speaker 1: their culture and history had a true, living, powerful God,
[2:22:11] Speaker 1: that God would have preserved their word and allowed it
[2:22:15] Speaker 1: to propagate throughout history. A lot of religions have fallen
[2:22:18] Speaker 1: to the wayside, and it's like this one, particular, this
[2:22:21] Speaker 1: one here is for some reason just kind of keeps
[2:22:24] Speaker 1: on trucking like it's really old. Is evolved, like it's
[2:22:28] Speaker 1: one of the few religions that have literally evolved. It
[2:22:38] Speaker 1: says the man named his wife Eve because she was
[2:22:41] Speaker 1: the mother of all living.
[2:22:43] Speaker 2: So there couldn't have been humans before Eve.
[2:22:51] Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot to unpackage in Bible scripture.
[2:22:55] Speaker 1: I mean that word the mother of all living I
[2:22:58] Speaker 1: don't know for sure, but it could easily be speaking
[2:23:01] Speaker 1: to like, you know, some spiritual sense, like the mother
[2:23:04] Speaker 1: of all living in spirit.
[2:23:06] Speaker 2: Right words don't words? Of course? Yeah?
[2:23:09] Speaker 1: Well no, I mean it's like, you know, because the
[2:23:11] Speaker 1: Bible has been interpreted and translated and interpretated, how is
[2:23:15] Speaker 1: he as.
[2:23:16] Speaker 2: A spiritual mother of all the living?
[2:23:19] Speaker 1: I don't know. I just kind of pulled that one out.
[2:23:21] Speaker 1: I don't know, I can't really speak to that verson
[2:23:24] Speaker 1: and make it make sense more than what the words say.
[2:23:27] Speaker 1: It says Eve is the mother of all living. I mean,
[2:23:29] Speaker 1: I still side with that. I agree with that. I mean,
[2:23:32] Speaker 1: and again moving on beyond Her and Adam, I mean,
[2:23:35] Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I mean, I guess you have to
[2:23:38] Speaker 1: reconcile the fact, Yeah, all living came from Eve started
[2:23:41] Speaker 1: with the Eve. Great.
[2:23:42] Speaker 2: So then we're back at square one, which is, if
[2:23:45] Speaker 2: Eve is the mother of all living, then how in
[2:23:48] Speaker 2: the world did we have people living before Eve.
[2:23:53] Speaker 1: So again, the only way I can reconcile that for
[2:23:56] Speaker 1: me to make sense for me is like, is this
[2:23:58] Speaker 1: again is for the Hebrew israel Lies and they're people.
[2:24:01] Speaker 1: It's like their story, God writing to them for them,
[2:24:04] Speaker 1: by them.
[2:24:05] Speaker 2: It says they're the only people that have been created
[2:24:08] Speaker 2: on the earth.
[2:24:10] Speaker 1: Oh, I mean it could have been excluding those other
[2:24:12] Speaker 1: people that were not part of this group of people, right.
[2:24:15] Speaker 1: They could have looked at all other groups of people
[2:24:18] Speaker 1: as dead or not living because they were, you know,
[2:24:21] Speaker 1: not with the spiritual God or whatever whatever the case
[2:24:23] Speaker 1: may be. But there's a lot of that that goes
[2:24:25] Speaker 1: on to the Bible and.
[2:24:26] Speaker 2: Why in the world would they not just say that
[2:24:28] Speaker 2: these are the parents of the Hebrews, because like we
[2:24:31] Speaker 2: actually are given the lineage of the Hebrews, we know
[2:24:33] Speaker 2: who they are, and their lineage starts with whatever in
[2:24:40] Speaker 2: the Bible after Adam and Eve. Like the Hebrews don't
[2:24:42] Speaker 2: exist until after Adam and Eve.
[2:24:47] Speaker 1: Right, right, right right, that's one hundred percent correct. But
[2:24:50] Speaker 1: the lineage as far as tracing back to Adam, I
[2:24:53] Speaker 1: mean you can, I guess you can call those the
[2:24:55] Speaker 1: ancient Hebrews right before they were even dubbed the Hebrew
[2:24:59] Speaker 1: or the was.
[2:25:02] Speaker 2: The Hebrews are people who are descendant from from Ever.
[2:25:07] Speaker 1: I understand that. But again, ever, that's a really that's
[2:25:10] Speaker 1: Noah's grandson. And so we're talking about you know, Noah,
[2:25:15] Speaker 1: who definitely came from Adam and Eve, but a Hebrew
[2:25:20] Speaker 1: I don't know exactly right because his grandson, so that Hebrew.
[2:25:32] Speaker 1: Are you tracking what I'm saying? Like, I mean, they
[2:25:33] Speaker 1: were considered technically like the ancient Hebrews, right they were
[2:25:36] Speaker 1: not Hebrew was the last name? Well listen, I'm trying
[2:25:39] Speaker 1: to say if Hebrew was the last name that people
[2:25:42] Speaker 1: were given, just follow with me here because I think
[2:25:47] Speaker 1: this is Hebrew was their last name ever, was the
[2:25:53] Speaker 1: one that kind of got the ball in motion, letting
[2:25:56] Speaker 1: everyone know, like this is our last name. But that's
[2:25:59] Speaker 1: not disqualifying or excluding his grandparents and great grandparents. Do
[2:26:05] Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying.
[2:26:05] Speaker 2: It's like, I mean, yeah, okay, let's imagine, for example,
[2:26:16] Speaker 2: that you're a descendant from Attila the Hunt. We're gonna
[2:26:19] Speaker 2: call you Aite for now. You're a descendant from Attila
[2:26:23] Speaker 2: to Hunting. We're Attila's parents Hunnites.
[2:26:31] Speaker 1: Yes, no, why not?
[2:26:37] Speaker 2: Because you can't be born to your Sonite is somebody
[2:26:41] Speaker 2: who comes from the line of Attila the Hunt.
[2:26:49] Speaker 5: It's just how we'd work.
[2:26:49] Speaker 1: I mean here, well, so this is more of what
[2:26:53] Speaker 1: this is. Right. My my grandfather played for you know,
[2:26:56] Speaker 1: high school football. My my dad played college football. I
[2:27:00] Speaker 1: play you know, college football or semi pros. My son,
[2:27:04] Speaker 1: he's an NFL athlete. I mean to say that he
[2:27:08] Speaker 1: doesn't come from a long line of football players is
[2:27:11] Speaker 1: just like ignoring his past.
[2:27:12] Speaker 2: But a football player is a category. It's a classification
[2:27:16] Speaker 2: of something. We're talking about lineage. We're talking about genealogy,
[2:27:21] Speaker 2: and genealogy isn't retroactive. If you came from Abraham, that
[2:27:26] Speaker 2: means the Abraham, the Abrahamites. Uh, can't predate Abraham himself.
[2:27:37] Speaker 1: But if my son gets up and receives the football,
[2:27:40] Speaker 1: you know, a trophy, and like, yeah, you know, I
[2:27:42] Speaker 1: come from a long line of football stars.
[2:27:44] Speaker 2: Football is an activity. It's not a genealogy.
[2:27:49] Speaker 1: Well let's let's make it a genealogy, all right, for
[2:27:52] Speaker 1: the sake of though.
[2:27:53] Speaker 2: If they're they're not, they're not. They're not the same category.
[2:27:56] Speaker 2: Bo One is an activity. One is an actual genealogy.
[2:28:01] Speaker 2: One's a bloodline. This can't be real. I can't be
[2:28:05] Speaker 2: having this conversation with a grown man.
[2:28:11] Speaker 1: Oh that wasn't nice, But I mean, yeah, well.
[2:28:13] Speaker 2: Come on, just focus up. I'm tired. I don't want
[2:28:19] Speaker 2: to have stupid conversations about how football is the equivalent
[2:28:24] Speaker 2: of a genealogy. They're not the same, you know, they're
[2:28:26] Speaker 2: not the same. Stand the level. Genealogy and football are
[2:28:36] Speaker 2: not the same thing. Okay, okay, So somebody who is
[2:28:41] Speaker 2: a Hebrew is somebody of a particular genealogy, correct, yes, Okay,
[2:28:48] Speaker 2: so you can't be Hebrew if you predate the first Hebrew. Sure, Okay, Finally,
[2:28:56] Speaker 2: we're on track. Okay, So no, Adam and Eve, we're
[2:28:59] Speaker 2: not Hebrew because they predate the first Hebrew. So the
[2:29:03] Speaker 2: question is, if all humanity came from Adam and Eve,
[2:29:07] Speaker 2: as the Bible tells us, then certainly it can't be
[2:29:11] Speaker 2: true that people existed before Adam and Eve, which is
[2:29:14] Speaker 2: why you're pretzeling. I'm trying to figure this out. Why
[2:29:16] Speaker 2: you're pretzeling on this.
[2:29:20] Speaker 1: Not familiar with that term, but again, I mean, it's
[2:29:24] Speaker 1: like if you don't want it, except that their lineage
[2:29:28] Speaker 1: is Hebrew lineage, right. I mean again, I believe that
[2:29:33] Speaker 1: this Bible was speaking directly for the Hebrew people in
[2:29:36] Speaker 1: their lineage. So if it says evens the living of
[2:29:40] Speaker 1: I mean the mother of all living, right, I could
[2:29:45] Speaker 1: concede too. That is like some poetic way of referencing
[2:29:50] Speaker 1: the mother of this.
[2:29:52] Speaker 2: People, not the Hebrews, though.
[2:29:58] Speaker 1: The Hebrews specifically, I mean not necessarcessarily the world.
[2:30:02] Speaker 2: The world, the mother of all living. Eve gave birth
[2:30:06] Speaker 2: to what led to Noah, and then Noah and his
[2:30:10] Speaker 2: family populated the entire world, all of them, which means
[2:30:14] Speaker 2: Eve is the mother of all living.
[2:30:20] Speaker 1: Yep. I have no problems with that Oh that's what
[2:30:23] Speaker 1: the scripture says.
[2:30:25] Speaker 2: Yes, and the scripture is wrong because there were people
[2:30:28] Speaker 2: living prior to Adam and Eve.
[2:30:35] Speaker 1: Okay, I mean that's kind of where the where we're like,
[2:30:40] Speaker 1: you know, I guess not seeing. I mean, I'm not
[2:30:43] Speaker 1: necessarily disagreeing with you, but again, I believe that the
[2:30:46] Speaker 1: Bible doesn't have to be compromised if people are documented
[2:30:52] Speaker 1: to live prior to Adam and Eve. I don't think
[2:30:55] Speaker 1: the compromise is the Bible, adult. I think the Bible
[2:30:59] Speaker 1: is the Bible. And you know, that's what pretty much says,
[2:31:04] Speaker 1: like it wouldn't.
[2:31:05] Speaker 2: The Earth didn't exist until until just a couple of
[2:31:08] Speaker 2: days prior to anim and Eve. How can you have
[2:31:12] Speaker 2: humans on an earth when the earth didn't even exist?
[2:31:16] Speaker 1: What are you trying to say?
[2:31:18] Speaker 2: The earth was created six days prior to anim and Eve?
[2:31:23] Speaker 1: Okay?
[2:31:24] Speaker 2: How did humans live on the earth six days prior
[2:31:26] Speaker 2: to Adim and Eve and when the earth didn't exist?
[2:31:29] Speaker 1: Okay? You know there's like a lot of theories on
[2:31:32] Speaker 1: that as well. That's like not all the way clear.
[2:31:34] Speaker 1: It's like a gap theory. I'm not like a coat
[2:31:38] Speaker 1: sign in to this camp, but it kind of like
[2:31:40] Speaker 1: allows for this to be in the gap theory, there's
[2:31:43] Speaker 1: a explanation that you know, each day that God went
[2:31:49] Speaker 1: in creation was represented by like a thousand years, so
[2:31:53] Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a thousand days, you know. I'm sorry,
[2:31:56] Speaker 1: seven days is more of seven thousand years. Again, I
[2:32:00] Speaker 1: don't co signed to that, but it's like, I mean,
[2:32:02] Speaker 1: for people looking for truths and answers, like you can
[2:32:05] Speaker 1: definitely put that one down just like one of the
[2:32:06] Speaker 1: truth of it. I don't you know so good.
[2:32:11] Speaker 2: I don't think that's a great argument, but I don't
[2:32:13] Speaker 2: think we want to waste a bunch of time on
[2:32:16] Speaker 2: defining the Hebrew word yome. That being said, doctor Jo,
[2:32:19] Speaker 2: thank you for the hind hurts. Let me ask you
[2:32:21] Speaker 2: a question. Do you think that it's ever okay to,
[2:32:27] Speaker 2: for example, commit genocide? Absolutely not interesting under any circumstances.
[2:32:41] Speaker 1: I know where you're going with this. The God of
[2:32:46] Speaker 1: the Bible instructs warriors on a few occasions to commit
[2:32:54] Speaker 1: acts of war and collect prisoners of war. So if
[2:32:58] Speaker 1: we just keep that in this context, I think that's like,
[2:33:00] Speaker 1: you know, kind of like a no brainer.
[2:33:02] Speaker 2: What's interesting because you initially started by saying no, there's
[2:33:06] Speaker 2: no good reason for genocide. Now it sounds like there
[2:33:09] Speaker 2: is good reason for genocide.
[2:33:12] Speaker 1: Well, I'm aware of what's recorded in the Bible, and yeah,
[2:33:16] Speaker 1: I mean I would have hated to be a part
[2:33:18] Speaker 1: of that time era, like man.
[2:33:19] Speaker 2: That's okay.
[2:33:20] Speaker 1: So some terrible times.
[2:33:22] Speaker 2: So there are occasions for genocide is okay.
[2:33:25] Speaker 1: It's absolutely necessary. I mean, I think we learned in
[2:33:28] Speaker 1: elementary school that some you know, war in most cases
[2:33:32] Speaker 1: are what promotes peace, Like in order to maintain peace,
[2:33:36] Speaker 1: you have to have war.
[2:33:37] Speaker 2: So genocide is necessary.
[2:33:41] Speaker 1: Not genocide, war genocide.
[2:33:43] Speaker 2: I'm talking about genocide. Genocides when you get rid of
[2:33:48] Speaker 2: a whole people group.
[2:33:51] Speaker 1: And so I understand that that happened in the Bible,
[2:33:54] Speaker 1: and that was God's way of telling his people, his
[2:33:57] Speaker 1: people right how to go about fighting war and battles
[2:34:01] Speaker 1: like they regarded God's words.
[2:34:04] Speaker 2: That's why I'm asking you to pay attention. I'm asking
[2:34:07] Speaker 2: you what are the occasions on which a genocide is justified?
[2:34:16] Speaker 1: In the Bible cases, I believe they were all justified.
[2:34:19] Speaker 2: Generally speaking, what are the qualifications that makes a genocide necessary?
[2:34:27] Speaker 1: You got to hear it from God, you have.
[2:34:29] Speaker 2: To, Okay, So genocide is only okay if God tells you.
[2:34:33] Speaker 1: Only if God lets the people know, like hey, you
[2:34:36] Speaker 1: gotta go and air them ount like, if that's coming
[2:34:38] Speaker 1: from God, man, it's you better boot up.
[2:34:43] Speaker 2: But I mean, for you woke, I don't know why
[2:34:47] Speaker 2: you can't say yes or no to my questions. They're
[2:34:49] Speaker 2: just yes or no questions. So the occasion by which
[2:34:54] Speaker 2: genocide is acceptable is when God tells you correct, yes, Okay, fantastic. Now,
[2:35:00] Speaker 2: if God tells you to do anything, then by definition,
[2:35:04] Speaker 2: the right thing to do is to do that thing.
[2:35:14] Speaker 1: So yes and no, yes, and understand that the Bible.
[2:35:18] Speaker 1: I understand the Bible has stories of, you know, things
[2:35:21] Speaker 1: that we just would not be able to do in
[2:35:24] Speaker 1: this current age. So again I'm really struggle on, like,
[2:35:27] Speaker 1: you know, being able to read the Bible with a
[2:35:29] Speaker 1: discernment and with an open heart, like a real honest heart.
[2:35:33] Speaker 1: Like God is not telling anybody to go and make
[2:35:35] Speaker 1: slaves of somebody.
[2:35:36] Speaker 2: I didn't say it was. I mean he does do
[2:35:39] Speaker 2: that in the Bible. I'm not saying he's doing it. Now,
[2:35:41] Speaker 2: just just pay attention. I feel like you're trying to
[2:35:44] Speaker 2: get ahead of my argument, and you don't know what
[2:35:46] Speaker 2: my argument is. Every time you try to skip ahead,
[2:35:49] Speaker 2: all you do is waste both of our time, because
[2:35:52] Speaker 2: I'm just going to keep redirecting you back to where
[2:35:54] Speaker 2: the argument is. So stop trying to guess where I'm going,
[2:35:57] Speaker 2: because you don't know where I'm going.
[2:35:59] Speaker 1: Okay, let's row, let's go cool.
[2:36:01] Speaker 2: Okay. So, if God tells you to do something, then
[2:36:05] Speaker 2: it's always the right thing to do it, isn't it?
[2:36:10] Speaker 1: Yes?
[2:36:10] Speaker 2: In your world if you're not mine, Yes.
[2:36:16] Speaker 1: I mean, but I also know God's not telling anybody
[2:36:18] Speaker 1: to do anything.
[2:36:19] Speaker 2: I didn't say he was. I don't know why you
[2:36:21] Speaker 2: keep trying to jump to that. That's not my argument, woke.
[2:36:25] Speaker 2: You keep trying to get ahead of my argument. You
[2:36:27] Speaker 2: don't know what my argument is. You're wasting your time
[2:36:29] Speaker 2: in mine. Okay, So we agree that anything God tells
[2:36:33] Speaker 2: you to do, it's always the right thing to do.
[2:36:36] Speaker 2: It cool. Next question is if God told you to
[2:36:40] Speaker 2: go to the local orphanage and adopt all the babies
[2:36:44] Speaker 2: and then turn them in the baby paste, and then
[2:36:47] Speaker 2: you know, roll them out into strips and dehydrate them
[2:36:50] Speaker 2: into fruit by the foot and use that as your
[2:36:53] Speaker 2: daily snack. Would the fruit by the foot baby paste
[2:36:56] Speaker 2: be the right thing to do.
[2:37:00] Speaker 1: No, No, why but God.
[2:37:01] Speaker 2: Told you to do it.
[2:37:02] Speaker 1: I'm talking. I'm taking that one up with him. He can,
[2:37:05] Speaker 1: God can? He he would have it.
[2:37:07] Speaker 2: I didn't ask you if you would do it. I
[2:37:09] Speaker 2: didn't ask you if you would and I asked you
[2:37:11] Speaker 2: if it would be the right thing to do to
[2:37:13] Speaker 2: follow God's orders.
[2:37:15] Speaker 1: No, I'm not getting I'm not getting into that.
[2:37:17] Speaker 2: It's just yes or no. What would it be the
[2:37:20] Speaker 2: right thing to do to follow the orders?
[2:37:24] Speaker 1: No?
[2:37:24] Speaker 2: So disobeying God The right thing to do is to
[2:37:27] Speaker 2: disobey God.
[2:37:30] Speaker 1: In this example, in scenario that you provided, absolutely, yes,
[2:37:33] Speaker 1: He's given me good confidence sense to know how to
[2:37:36] Speaker 1: protect his creation and not.
[2:37:39] Speaker 2: You know, but genocide isn't protecting creation.
[2:37:44] Speaker 1: In the biblical stories. I believe they were in biblical context.
[2:37:49] Speaker 1: I believe they were.
[2:37:50] Speaker 2: Oh is that the case? What about when God killed
[2:37:53] Speaker 2: all the Egyptian firstborn? Who is he protecting?
[2:38:00] Speaker 1: When God killed the Egyptian first born? You're talking about
[2:38:05] Speaker 1: the story of Moses, right, And what's your question? Was
[2:38:11] Speaker 1: that right?
[2:38:12] Speaker 3: No?
[2:38:12] Speaker 2: Who's he protecting?
[2:38:16] Speaker 3: Oh?
[2:38:16] Speaker 1: I would have to read who was he protecting? Do
[2:38:18] Speaker 1: you think he was protecting anybody in that story.
[2:38:20] Speaker 2: No, I think according to the story, he's just showing off.
[2:38:24] Speaker 2: It's a display of his power.
[2:38:29] Speaker 1: M I disagree. I see, I see God like a
[2:38:34] Speaker 1: chess player and us down here as like checkers players,
[2:38:37] Speaker 1: and we're just not gonna be able to comprehend chess
[2:38:39] Speaker 1: moves when we only play checkers.
[2:38:42] Speaker 2: If God was evil, could you know it?
[2:38:49] Speaker 1: Uh? Yeah? How yeah through his absence? Right? If you
[2:38:59] Speaker 1: were you.
[2:38:59] Speaker 2: Just you just described the God of the Bible. He's
[2:39:02] Speaker 2: absent and evil.
[2:39:06] Speaker 1: No, that's that's not that's not the conclusion I've made
[2:39:10] Speaker 1: or got to. But yeah, if you were praying and
[2:39:16] Speaker 1: you know, you did not hear a word back, did
[2:39:19] Speaker 1: not nothing came through nothing? Yeah, that I think that's
[2:39:23] Speaker 1: a really bad place to be. But to be able
[2:39:25] Speaker 1: to at least pray on God to God, even if
[2:39:29] Speaker 1: you're not a praying person, to have some to have
[2:39:31] Speaker 1: a little bit of reservation in your heart for him,
[2:39:34] Speaker 1: I think that's aw that's really needed. I mean, that's
[2:39:38] Speaker 1: that's really all that's needed in his life, Just a
[2:39:40] Speaker 1: little bit of space for him.
[2:39:41] Speaker 2: Well, that's not true anything else. There are billions of
[2:39:45] Speaker 2: people that die without knowledge of this God, that are
[2:39:47] Speaker 2: earnestly seeking this God. So that's that's just simply not true.
[2:39:51] Speaker 2: Why does God allow certain diseases like lesh Niam syndrome.
[2:39:59] Speaker 1: Well, I mean so I can't answer that with scripture
[2:40:02] Speaker 1: because it says, you know, God creates vessels for honor
[2:40:07] Speaker 1: and vessels for dishonor, like he's making He's running the show, right,
[2:40:12] Speaker 1: And I mean some of us are made for dishonor.
[2:40:16] Speaker 2: So God created the baby to have lush Nam syndrome,
[2:40:20] Speaker 2: to gouge his own eyeballs out and scratch his face uncontrollably.
[2:40:25] Speaker 2: God made that baby to do that. You don't see
[2:40:32] Speaker 2: how horrific that is.
[2:40:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't say God made the baby do that.
[2:40:37] Speaker 1: The baby has a condition, now.
[2:40:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, the condition, yeah, yeah, But God created biology. God
[2:40:42] Speaker 2: created how the world works. God made it so that
[2:40:45] Speaker 2: babies can get this syndrome. Did he have to do that?
[2:40:51] Speaker 1: Well, so now we're talking about a post fallen world, Yes?
[2:40:55] Speaker 7: Or no?
[2:40:55] Speaker 2: Did God have to do that?
[2:41:00] Speaker 1: Yes? In order his word to remain true, in order
[2:41:03] Speaker 1: for him to remain just and truthful. Yes, the fallen
[2:41:07] Speaker 1: world must remain falling it, which means.
[2:41:09] Speaker 2: I didn't ask about the fallen world. I asked about
[2:41:11] Speaker 2: a specific syndrome. Why does God have to make that
[2:41:16] Speaker 2: a reality?
[2:41:19] Speaker 1: It's a result of the fallen world that we have inherited.
[2:41:22] Speaker 2: Who has control over the diseases?
[2:41:28] Speaker 1: Oh, we do wrong?
[2:41:29] Speaker 2: God does. God created biology. God created the way everything
[2:41:32] Speaker 2: was going to function. If God knows the future and
[2:41:36] Speaker 2: he knows biology, he created all things. He knew ahead
[2:41:39] Speaker 2: of time, before the fall, that babies would get this syndrome, didn't.
[2:41:43] Speaker 1: He Yeah, he knew. He knew all the good and
[2:41:49] Speaker 1: the bad was going to get bad.
[2:41:51] Speaker 2: Could he have designed biology so that babies didn't get
[2:41:54] Speaker 2: the syndrome?
[2:41:57] Speaker 1: I believe he did, But again, he did not like
[2:41:59] Speaker 1: this his plan, right, it wasn't in God.
[2:42:03] Speaker 2: He did not. He did not design babies so that
[2:42:06] Speaker 2: they wouldn't give this condition.
[2:42:10] Speaker 1: So who designed it?
[2:42:11] Speaker 8: Then?
[2:42:12] Speaker 2: He did? God designed human beings in a way in
[2:42:16] Speaker 2: which babies would get Lushneim syndrome. Nobody created biology other
[2:42:22] Speaker 2: than God.
[2:42:25] Speaker 1: That's a result, right, He made it perfect. But it's
[2:42:28] Speaker 1: not a result we don't have. Like I mean, people
[2:42:32] Speaker 1: are born blind.
[2:42:33] Speaker 2: Which is did Adam and Eve create the syndrome?
[2:42:39] Speaker 1: I believe? So? I believe they.
[2:42:44] Speaker 2: God created biology. God made all of this the case,
[2:42:49] Speaker 2: Adam and Eve didn't create anything.
[2:42:54] Speaker 1: But we also read, okay, so we read that Eve
[2:42:57] Speaker 1: was the mother of our living. We also read that
[2:42:59] Speaker 1: God created man and woman and he considered them good.
[2:43:03] Speaker 1: He didn't say he made them and they was okay,
[2:43:05] Speaker 1: they was. He was like, he made them good. So
[2:43:07] Speaker 1: that means that tells me that he made them good. Yeah.
[2:43:11] Speaker 2: And then after Adam and even ate the fruit, he
[2:43:14] Speaker 2: changed it. He made it bad. Bertram, thank you for
[2:43:16] Speaker 2: the blooming. So after they fell, God changed biology.
[2:43:22] Speaker 1: No, he didn't change anything. He did became independent of God.
[2:43:25] Speaker 2: Did babies get Leshnaiam syndrome before the fall?
[2:43:32] Speaker 1: No? Okay?
[2:43:34] Speaker 2: Could they get it before the fall? Was it possible?
[2:43:38] Speaker 1: No?
[2:43:39] Speaker 2: Okay, which means after the fall biology change. Didn't it?
[2:43:46] Speaker 1: No?
[2:43:46] Speaker 2: It did. Yeah, you pay attention to what you just said.
[2:43:49] Speaker 2: You just said babies were incapable of getting the syndrome
[2:43:54] Speaker 2: prior to the fall. After the fall, babies were capable
[2:43:58] Speaker 2: of getting the syndrome, which means their biology changed.
[2:44:03] Speaker 1: No, that does not mean that it does. If I
[2:44:07] Speaker 1: contracted diabetes and now I have to you know, wash
[2:44:13] Speaker 1: my blood sugar and I don't watch my blood shirt
[2:44:15] Speaker 1: and get my pinky toe cut off. It's not that,
[2:44:19] Speaker 1: you know, the diabetes necessarily took my toe. It was
[2:44:23] Speaker 1: me not paying attention to my blood sugars.
[2:44:25] Speaker 2: Well, I need you to pay attention. You're not having
[2:44:28] Speaker 2: the same conversation I'm having. I want you to stay
[2:44:31] Speaker 2: on topic. This is the argument. I'll just lay it
[2:44:34] Speaker 2: out for you, because I don't think you're following. Before
[2:44:37] Speaker 2: the Fall, there was theoretically no diseases. After the fall,
[2:44:43] Speaker 2: there were diseases. That means something changed in the biology
[2:44:49] Speaker 2: and the design of the world in the human body.
[2:44:53] Speaker 2: Do you agree.
[2:44:56] Speaker 1: I do not agree to that.
[2:44:57] Speaker 2: Then why was it impossible for it to happened prior
[2:45:00] Speaker 2: to the fall?
[2:45:02] Speaker 1: Because everything was perfect?
[2:45:04] Speaker 2: That didn't answer the question why was it impossible?
[2:45:08] Speaker 1: Oh, perfect nutrition, That.
[2:45:11] Speaker 2: Doesn't answer the question. I'm talking about diseases. Why was
[2:45:15] Speaker 2: it impossible for diseases to happen prior to the fall?
[2:45:21] Speaker 1: Because living with God, Adam and you had knowledge of
[2:45:24] Speaker 1: how to take care of themselves, and he took care
[2:45:26] Speaker 1: of them. Sales as well. Now, I mean, I'm sorry
[2:45:29] Speaker 1: before the fall. After the fall, gods don't longer taking
[2:45:32] Speaker 1: care of them. They don't even have ask the fresh fruits.
[2:45:35] Speaker 2: Listen, I don't care what bullshit biology you think is
[2:45:39] Speaker 2: happening here. We could run with that answer. It's a
[2:45:41] Speaker 2: poor answer, but we're in around with it. You still
[2:45:43] Speaker 2: end up with the same result. The result is after
[2:45:46] Speaker 2: Adam and Eve sinned, God did something that resulted in
[2:45:51] Speaker 2: human beings getting these diseases. It's it's God's doing. No, no, no,
[2:45:57] Speaker 2: God did it.
[2:45:59] Speaker 1: No man, They didn't have access to fresh fruits and
[2:46:01] Speaker 1: vegetables anymore.
[2:46:02] Speaker 2: They literally do. We have access to fresh fruits and
[2:46:05] Speaker 2: vegetables as we speak.
[2:46:07] Speaker 1: No, I'm saying Adam and Eve they lost the garden.
[2:46:09] Speaker 1: They lost all organic meals.
[2:46:11] Speaker 2: That is literally not true.
[2:46:14] Speaker 1: They did. They got kicked out.
[2:46:15] Speaker 2: You're wrong. Genesis three literally states that they're going to
[2:46:18] Speaker 2: eat from the produce of the ground. That's fresh foods
[2:46:23] Speaker 2: and vegetables.
[2:46:24] Speaker 1: They have to grow at themselves.
[2:46:26] Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if they have to grow at themselves.
[2:46:28] Speaker 2: It's still organic. They're not putting chemicals on it. They're
[2:46:31] Speaker 2: they're not putting round up on on this. They're growing.
[2:46:35] Speaker 2: They're growing fruits and vegetables. The old fashioned way in
[2:46:39] Speaker 2: the garden was crazy, all right, woke. This conversation is
[2:46:45] Speaker 2: too far above your pay grade. Let's try something simpler.
[2:46:48] Speaker 2: After the fall, we got natural disasters. Prior to the fall,
[2:46:52] Speaker 2: there were none, right, right? Okay? Why did God create
[2:46:58] Speaker 2: natural disasters after the fall?
[2:47:04] Speaker 1: I mean, how do we get there? How do we
[2:47:06] Speaker 1: are we jumping to a conclusion that God created a
[2:47:08] Speaker 1: natural disaster?
[2:47:09] Speaker 2: We know he did. Nobody has control over the way
[2:47:13] Speaker 2: the world behaves, like, no one created weather other than God.
[2:47:17] Speaker 2: God created the way the earth behaves.
[2:47:23] Speaker 1: So I have to believe that God controls the weather, and.
[2:47:28] Speaker 2: The Bible literally says God controls the weather.
[2:47:34] Speaker 1: Okay, I could dig that.
[2:47:37] Speaker 2: Natural disasters in your worldview are a result of the
[2:47:42] Speaker 2: fall of mankind. Do you agree?
[2:47:47] Speaker 1: Yes?
[2:47:47] Speaker 2: Okay? Did God have to make that the case?
[2:47:53] Speaker 1: I think so? I mean, I'm pretty I mean because
[2:47:56] Speaker 1: he's again Paradise was perfect.
[2:48:00] Speaker 2: I know that doesn't answer my question. My question is
[2:48:02] Speaker 2: why why did God have to make natural disasters.
[2:48:06] Speaker 1: So to give us a reminder of his power?
[2:48:11] Speaker 2: And that, I mean God has to randomly kill one
[2:48:14] Speaker 2: hundred thousand people a year to remind us of his power.
[2:48:19] Speaker 1: That's what the natural does. Natural disasters kill on a
[2:48:21] Speaker 1: hundred thousand people every.
[2:48:22] Speaker 2: Year on average.
[2:48:23] Speaker 9: You have to.
[2:48:24] Speaker 2: You have to average it out, sometimes more, sometimes less.
[2:48:27] Speaker 2: But it also it inflicts untold amounts of suffering even
[2:48:31] Speaker 2: on people who don't die. You know, people get caught
[2:48:33] Speaker 2: up in natural disasters and live through it, like they
[2:48:36] Speaker 2: lose limbs, but they live through it.
[2:48:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's literally the result of a fallen world.
[2:48:42] Speaker 1: Like I know, it's not in the pain the experience
[2:48:45] Speaker 1: in those natural disasters pain.
[2:48:46] Speaker 2: Thank you for the galaxy. So you're you're not tracking
[2:48:49] Speaker 2: the conversation at all. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna
[2:48:52] Speaker 2: tell you the argument. Okay, the argument is that God
[2:48:55] Speaker 2: causes unnecessary suffering, therefore he's not all good. Therefore he's bullshit.
[2:49:00] Speaker 2: Natural disasters are not necessary for anything. They are definitionally unnecessary.
[2:49:06] Speaker 2: So because God causes the unnecessary suffering brought by natural disasters,
[2:49:11] Speaker 2: either one of two things is true. That God isn't
[2:49:13] Speaker 2: all good, or the God doesn't exist, or he's not
[2:49:16] Speaker 2: all powerful, or maybe he's not all knowing but he
[2:49:18] Speaker 2: can't be all three of the omni properties. Do you track?
[2:49:23] Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I mean you don't see natural disasters as
[2:49:25] Speaker 1: an opportunity as you for you, as a good person
[2:49:28] Speaker 1: to step up and help somebody in need or no, no.
[2:49:32] Speaker 2: No, how do you help the person that had a
[2:49:35] Speaker 2: building collapse on them?
[2:49:38] Speaker 1: I mean, like, there's all these you know, what do
[2:49:40] Speaker 1: they call them? Non governmental organizations? You donate, you send water.
[2:49:44] Speaker 2: How do you help somebody that died in the collapsing building?
[2:49:50] Speaker 1: You donate to the cause?
[2:49:51] Speaker 2: Right, No, they're dead. How do you help the person
[2:49:54] Speaker 2: that got crushed in the building.
[2:49:57] Speaker 1: If that person belonged to a church, they would you
[2:50:00] Speaker 1: receive help from their church.
[2:50:01] Speaker 2: I mean, how do you help the dead person that
[2:50:07] Speaker 2: was crushed in the collapsing building.
[2:50:10] Speaker 1: With their funeral arrangements? I mean, what are you talking.
[2:50:12] Speaker 2: About, bro, they're dead. You're not helping them. They're gone.
[2:50:16] Speaker 1: You're helping their family.
[2:50:17] Speaker 2: This is crazy. I didn't ask about their family.
[2:50:21] Speaker 1: There's nothing you could physically do to somebody who's under
[2:50:23] Speaker 1: a building.
[2:50:24] Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, you can't physically help a person who's
[2:50:27] Speaker 2: dead under a collapsing building. That's literally the entire point.
[2:50:30] Speaker 2: So you can can you learn? Can you learn to
[2:50:34] Speaker 2: help humanity without collapsing buildings and natural disasters? I don't know, man,
[2:50:42] Speaker 2: Yes the answer is yes, I've learned to help people
[2:50:45] Speaker 2: I've learned to help people without natural disasters. I never
[2:50:48] Speaker 2: needed a tornado to go through Missouri to know that
[2:50:52] Speaker 2: it's good to help people.
[2:50:58] Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I think it's a real opportunity
[2:51:01] Speaker 1: for us to like step up to the plate. I
[2:51:03] Speaker 1: mean for natural disaster. Yeah, you don't need one, but
[2:51:05] Speaker 1: I mean when one happens, if you feel like God
[2:51:08] Speaker 1: is doing something wrong to your fellow brethren, it's definitely
[2:51:11] Speaker 1: up to you to do something about it, like I'm
[2:51:13] Speaker 1: about to. Since God won't do something, I will.
[2:51:15] Speaker 4: Right.
[2:51:15] Speaker 2: That's kind of the point you just conceded, the point,
[2:51:18] Speaker 2: which is that God doesn't need natural disasters. Whatever God
[2:51:21] Speaker 2: wants to teach you, he can teach it to you
[2:51:24] Speaker 2: without the natural disasters.
[2:51:25] Speaker 1: Correct, that's correct. But some people can.
[2:51:29] Speaker 2: Then definitionally speaking, the disasters are not necessary.
[2:51:35] Speaker 1: Oh no, I would say they're necessary because not anybody
[2:51:38] Speaker 1: just gets something does it on their own. Some people
[2:51:40] Speaker 1: need it, to be.
[2:51:40] Speaker 2: Right next to no, they don't need it.
[2:51:45] Speaker 1: I disagree, Well, I just don't need. No, they don't disaster.
[2:51:50] Speaker 19: Hey, those who is leading someone to teach another person
[2:51:54] Speaker 19: to listen.
[2:51:57] Speaker 2: I didn't even see you join up. Hold on, let
[2:51:59] Speaker 2: me let me move my I rearranged my screens and
[2:52:04] Speaker 2: let me open up this box real quick. Hold on,
[2:52:07] Speaker 2: there we go now I can see you m hm.
[2:52:11] Speaker 19: So like you shouldn't be you shouldn't have to lift someone,
[2:52:14] Speaker 19: Like if you hit two kids, you wouldn't put You
[2:52:17] Speaker 19: wouldn't cut off the lip of one of your kids
[2:52:19] Speaker 19: so that the other kid goes and helps him to walk.
[2:52:28] Speaker 1: I'm sorry? Is that? I'm not.
[2:52:32] Speaker 19: When you think of.
[2:52:35] Speaker 2: Em said you wouldn't cut off one of the limbs. Oh,
[2:52:38] Speaker 2: who's getting a foot? Call em says, you wouldn't cut
[2:52:41] Speaker 2: off one of the limbs of your children to help
[2:52:43] Speaker 2: your other.
[2:52:44] Speaker 19: Child to to help his brother.
[2:52:48] Speaker 1: Right, hold on, But that's that's an extreme case. Now,
[2:52:51] Speaker 1: there's plenty of parents brothers donate kidneys to one another.
[2:52:57] Speaker 2: It's exactly a direct analogy. Would you off the arm
[2:53:00] Speaker 2: of one of your children to teach your other children
[2:53:02] Speaker 2: a lesson?
[2:53:06] Speaker 1: To teach a lesson? No, I wouldn't, No, not at all.
[2:53:08] Speaker 2: But they need to learn how to help their brother. Nah,
[2:53:13] Speaker 2: that's not that's God, you finally figured it out. Okay,
[2:53:17] Speaker 2: So if you're not willing to do it, that means
[2:53:20] Speaker 2: it's not a good idea, which means it's not a
[2:53:21] Speaker 2: good idea when God does it. Now, you're just special pleading.
[2:53:25] Speaker 1: No, I mean that's bringing God down to my level.
[2:53:27] Speaker 1: I mean, he made the earth in six days. I did,
[2:53:29] Speaker 1: I can't. So, I mean I'm definitely not about to
[2:53:31] Speaker 1: do anything that involves another person's life when I mean,
[2:53:35] Speaker 1: that's truly God's realm. He deals with the life, He
[2:53:38] Speaker 1: deals with all that he deals with, punishment, discipline. I
[2:53:41] Speaker 1: don't have to do anything.
[2:53:43] Speaker 2: Do you think it's several okay to punish the wife
[2:53:46] Speaker 2: of a husband for the sins of the husband.
[2:53:50] Speaker 1: Punish the wife of the husband for the sins of
[2:53:53] Speaker 1: the husband. No, that's not fair. Ever, I mean I
[2:54:03] Speaker 1: don't know everything. I'm sure somebody's got a caveat out there,
[2:54:07] Speaker 1: but I don't. I can't enlighten me. Surprised me if.
[2:54:15] Speaker 2: If I sleep with your wife and commit adultery, would
[2:54:18] Speaker 2: it be okay as payback for you to sleep with mine?
[2:54:25] Speaker 1: Well's another Bible says that it says do not do
[2:54:27] Speaker 1: that because there's no amount of money you can put
[2:54:29] Speaker 1: in that man's hand to quench his wrath on you. Right, So,
[2:54:32] Speaker 1: I mean, brothers, be wise out there. Don't mess around
[2:54:35] Speaker 1: nobody's wife but me personally how I feel. I'm like
[2:54:37] Speaker 1: from the old school. If she chose you, she chose
[2:54:41] Speaker 1: you like she chose So that's what women doing.
[2:54:43] Speaker 2: Anyway, you're really struggling to pay attention to the questions.
[2:54:47] Speaker 2: I'll just ask the same question. If I committed adultery
[2:54:51] Speaker 2: with your wife, would it be acceptable as payback for
[2:54:54] Speaker 2: you to do it with my wife? It's just yes
[2:54:57] Speaker 2: or no. Oh that's like an eye for a That's
[2:55:01] Speaker 2: literally what I'm asking you. Yes, is it acceptable?
[2:55:05] Speaker 1: That's not how I live.
[2:55:07] Speaker 2: Yes or no. That's all I need.
[2:55:10] Speaker 1: According to the Bible.
[2:55:12] Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so it is acceptable according to the Bible,
[2:55:15] Speaker 2: the Old Testament.
[2:55:17] Speaker 1: According to the Old Testament. Now Jesus he came and said, don't.
[2:55:20] Speaker 2: Do But why do you keep telling the stories? No
[2:55:21] Speaker 2: one cares. Just answer the questions.
[2:55:25] Speaker 1: I let's stick with Jesus said there and say.
[2:55:27] Speaker 2: No, okay, So it's not okay? Is it okay if
[2:55:30] Speaker 2: God does it?
[2:55:33] Speaker 1: Yes?
[2:55:34] Speaker 2: Okay? So why is it okay when God does it,
[2:55:36] Speaker 2: but not okay when you do it?
[2:55:38] Speaker 1: Because that's God?
[2:55:39] Speaker 2: I'm not what don't you believe in objective morals?
[2:55:46] Speaker 1: That's like me trying to run around l like saying.
[2:55:48] Speaker 2: Well, do you believe in objective morals?
[2:55:53] Speaker 5: Uh?
[2:55:54] Speaker 1: To? Can you define that for me? Y'all? Don't want
[2:55:57] Speaker 1: to speak out of ignorance.
[2:55:59] Speaker 2: Objective morals means that it's either right or wrong, no
[2:56:02] Speaker 2: matter what we think about it.
[2:56:07] Speaker 1: I understand, Yes, there's some objective mores. I understand there's
[2:56:09] Speaker 1: some gray areas too, but yeah, yeah, there's I try
[2:56:12] Speaker 1: to live in the black and white.
[2:56:15] Speaker 2: Okay, So is there any Is there ever an occasion,
[2:56:19] Speaker 2: no matter who's doing it, including God, where it would
[2:56:23] Speaker 2: be acceptable to have some women graped because their husband
[2:56:29] Speaker 2: committed a crime.
[2:56:33] Speaker 1: No?
[2:56:33] Speaker 2: Never, not even forgotten?
[2:56:38] Speaker 12: No.
[2:56:40] Speaker 2: Read twelve.
[2:56:41] Speaker 1: Understand we're reducing God to a person, but I mean.
[2:56:45] Speaker 2: I mean, according to your review, he's three persons. So
[2:56:49] Speaker 2: a person is an irrelevant topic. So you want to
[2:56:53] Speaker 2: read first or second semen of twelve with me?
[2:56:57] Speaker 1: Sure?
[2:56:58] Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna put on the screen one second. Where's
[2:57:02] Speaker 2: my browser at? Okay? So this is the punishment given
[2:57:09] Speaker 2: to David when he committed adultery with Bathsheba and knocked
[2:57:14] Speaker 2: her up. So on and so forth. Thus say it
[2:57:16] Speaker 2: the Lord, I will raise up trouble against you from
[2:57:18] Speaker 2: within your own house, and I will take your wives
[2:57:21] Speaker 2: before your eyes and give them to your neighbor. He
[2:57:23] Speaker 2: shall lie with your wives in broad daylight, for you
[2:57:25] Speaker 2: did it secretly. But I will do this thing before
[2:57:28] Speaker 2: all Israel in broad daylight. So God is suggesting he's
[2:57:33] Speaker 2: going to have his punishment for what David did. He's
[2:57:36] Speaker 2: going to have his ten of David's wives.
[2:57:39] Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's tough man, that's real tough.
[2:57:44] Speaker 2: He should have obeyed, but the wives didn't have to
[2:57:47] Speaker 2: do it this, did you see?
[2:57:49] Speaker 19: It is tough?
[2:57:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tough. What did you say after that?
[2:57:57] Speaker 2: I'd hate to be married to this guy? If somebody
[2:57:59] Speaker 2: graped your wife? Would you say? Oh darn, that's tough.
[2:58:04] Speaker 1: No, grape is terrible? Like period?
[2:58:07] Speaker 2: Why is it okay when God does it?
[2:58:12] Speaker 1: Did I miss how God did it?
[2:58:14] Speaker 2: Yeah? He says, I will do this thing.
[2:58:18] Speaker 1: He said, I will, Yeah.
[2:58:21] Speaker 2: I will take your wives before your eyes. I will
[2:58:24] Speaker 2: raise up trouble against you.
[2:58:30] Speaker 1: Those were so okay. Let me explain, let me qualify
[2:58:34] Speaker 1: some go clarify some information here. This is David getting punished.
[2:58:37] Speaker 1: He's being punished. But did God for what he did?
[2:58:40] Speaker 5: Get very terrible.
[2:58:43] Speaker 1: He lost his son, but get No, would that would
[2:58:51] Speaker 1: that be like okay? Punish? Yeah? I don't know.
[2:58:55] Speaker 2: Why is it okay for the women to get graped
[2:58:58] Speaker 2: when they didn't commit the sin?
[2:59:01] Speaker 1: Did it say that they were he was God took
[2:59:03] Speaker 1: them to be great?
[2:59:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. It happens in chapter sixteen. Absalom
[2:59:07] Speaker 2: storms the palace trying to take over his father's throne
[2:59:11] Speaker 2: and takes ten of his concubines on the advice of
[2:59:14] Speaker 2: his former advisor, to the top of the palace and
[2:59:18] Speaker 2: sleeps with them in front of all Israel as a
[2:59:20] Speaker 2: display of force over his father.
[2:59:28] Speaker 1: So he took ten of his wives. I'm a little
[2:59:31] Speaker 1: vague on the story. I do remember, but I just
[2:59:33] Speaker 1: don't recall it going down that way as to ten
[2:59:36] Speaker 1: of David's wives and grave them all.
[2:59:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, on top of the palace in front of broad daylight,
[2:59:42] Speaker 2: to demonstrate that he's in charge.
[2:59:45] Speaker 1: That don't sound like great to me. That sound like
[2:59:47] Speaker 1: a party.
[2:59:48] Speaker 2: No, that sounds like great.
[2:59:50] Speaker 1: It was on the top of a house.
[2:59:53] Speaker 2: On top of the palace as a show of force
[2:59:57] Speaker 2: after he chased his father out of his own palace. Yes,
[3:00:03] Speaker 2: he came in with an army, chased out his father,
[3:00:06] Speaker 2: took the throne, and then took ten of his wives
[3:00:11] Speaker 2: and slept with them on top of the palace as
[3:00:13] Speaker 2: a display of force over his father in front of
[3:00:16] Speaker 2: all the Israelites. That's not a party, that's a coup.
[3:00:23] Speaker 1: And the women they went along with it, like they
[3:00:27] Speaker 1: went to the top of the palace and participated.
[3:00:30] Speaker 2: They were captured. They were captured, they were taken.
[3:00:39] Speaker 1: They were taken and forcefully graved on top of the palace.
[3:00:44] Speaker 2: Do you think they consented to sleeping with their own
[3:00:46] Speaker 2: step child on top of the palace in front of
[3:00:49] Speaker 2: all the Israelites. Do you think David's wives consented to that?
[3:00:57] Speaker 2: I think Apslom just walked into the palace and tent
[3:00:59] Speaker 2: of David's wife. I was like, oh, I'm married to
[3:01:01] Speaker 2: the king, but let me go up on top of
[3:01:03] Speaker 2: the palace and commit adultery, a crime worthy of death
[3:01:06] Speaker 2: according to Deuteronomy twenty two. Let's go to the top
[3:01:08] Speaker 2: of the palace and willfully commit adultery with my own
[3:01:12] Speaker 2: step child. You think that's what happened in front of
[3:01:16] Speaker 2: the hoop, in front of the whole country.
[3:01:22] Speaker 1: I'm that's that's tough.
[3:01:24] Speaker 2: That's that's some victim blaming bullshit. What were they wearing? Ems?
[3:01:29] Speaker 2: Did they have it coming?
[3:01:32] Speaker 19: He literally suited that he should have beat count if
[3:01:36] Speaker 19: he didn't want that to happen. He literally suited that,
[3:01:40] Speaker 19: like two minutes ago.
[3:01:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't have any anything to answer to that,
[3:01:48] Speaker 1: because that's just that's just terrible.
[3:01:49] Speaker 2: I know it's terrible.
[3:01:51] Speaker 1: I just that.
[3:01:53] Speaker 2: And how do you not get it out? It says it?
[3:01:58] Speaker 1: How do you just know?
[3:01:59] Speaker 2: How do you think this is sensual?
[3:02:01] Speaker 1: I never interpreted it that way, And that's how I'm saying.
[3:02:04] Speaker 2: I like, you know, do you have ridding comprehension? Do
[3:02:09] Speaker 2: you think that when Abes when Apslom stormed the palace,
[3:02:12] Speaker 2: he came in there lovingly or do you think he
[3:02:14] Speaker 2: came in there with an army and a sword.
[3:02:17] Speaker 1: Well, considering the relationship, it always came off to me.
[3:02:21] Speaker 1: I always interpreted there was like, you know, this is
[3:02:24] Speaker 1: the son, like you said, flexing on his dead. He's
[3:02:28] Speaker 1: like taking, he's mad. This is more than this is
[3:02:32] Speaker 1: more than this is more than a father son rivalry.
[3:02:37] Speaker 1: This is like you know, kings fighting.
[3:02:39] Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's a coup.
[3:02:43] Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's it is really bad. That's tough. I mean,
[3:02:47] Speaker 1: I don't I don't have anything to say to that, bro, Like,
[3:02:49] Speaker 1: I really don't mean. It's just I don't think that
[3:02:52] Speaker 1: that's an order of God, like God is orchestrating great right,
[3:02:57] Speaker 1: I don't think that is what's happening here.
[3:02:59] Speaker 2: That's what it says.
[3:03:00] Speaker 1: I'm going to do a deep dive on that. I'm
[3:03:03] Speaker 1: going to dive deep on that, and I hope I
[3:03:06] Speaker 1: bump into you again so I can put you up
[3:03:08] Speaker 1: on on some game with this one, because it's just
[3:03:13] Speaker 1: not what you're interpreting that you can't.
[3:03:15] Speaker 2: Certainly, God says, I will raise up trouble against you
[3:03:20] Speaker 2: from within your own house, and I will take your
[3:03:24] Speaker 2: wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor.
[3:03:26] Speaker 2: He will lie with your wives in broad daylight. God
[3:03:29] Speaker 2: is saying I'm doing it. I'm causing it to happen.
[3:03:32] Speaker 2: Whatever happened to those women was God's causing. Remember, this
[3:03:36] Speaker 2: is a punishment for David. God is causing it to happen.
[3:03:42] Speaker 1: Yep, I get it. I get it that it doesn't
[3:03:45] Speaker 1: look good.
[3:03:46] Speaker 2: I know it doesn't look good.
[3:03:48] Speaker 1: I guarantee you the next time we bump into each other.
[3:03:51] Speaker 1: I'm going to have some some some good information for you,
[3:03:54] Speaker 1: and it's going to clarify that for you. I've been
[3:04:02] Speaker 1: knocking down eighty is for a few weeks now, and.
[3:04:06] Speaker 2: I watched you get crushed on a dozen lives before
[3:04:10] Speaker 2: this one.
[3:04:11] Speaker 19: They do it pretty much.
[3:04:14] Speaker 2: In fact, just like a week ago, I saw you
[3:04:16] Speaker 2: get absolutely roasted in Thinkers Live on the slavery topic.
[3:04:21] Speaker 2: I don't think you're as good as you think you are.
[3:04:25] Speaker 1: The slavery topic is real sensitive for black folks, so
[3:04:29] Speaker 1: I mean it's nothing that I can really speak to
[3:04:32] Speaker 1: on that. But I mean, the Bible is true, is right?
[3:04:35] Speaker 1: I mean, if you side with it, you know you're
[3:04:36] Speaker 1: gonna always be right. It's just a matter of if
[3:04:39] Speaker 1: you don't have to have all the knowledge now, and
[3:04:41] Speaker 1: I don't. I don't come before you today, is I
[3:04:43] Speaker 1: have all knowledge? I'm learning. I'm definitely learning that I'm
[3:04:47] Speaker 1: not a deconstructing Christian because it seems like the deconstructing
[3:04:51] Speaker 1: Christians have just created another set of Christianity.
[3:04:54] Speaker 2: Because when I saw you on Thinkers Live, you started
[3:04:57] Speaker 2: on the panel by saying you're deconstructing. It's almost like
[3:05:02] Speaker 2: you're telling her. It's almost like you're just up here lying.
[3:05:06] Speaker 1: I thought I wanted to, but it's like really tough
[3:05:08] Speaker 1: out there, these deconstructing.
[3:05:09] Speaker 2: These guys can't be honest.
[3:05:10] Speaker 1: And in sadness. So yeah, I'm definitely happy that I'm
[3:05:15] Speaker 1: not no longer deconstructing. I'm just you know, paying on
[3:05:18] Speaker 1: the side that I'm on.
[3:05:19] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're unable to be honest. I think
[3:05:21] Speaker 2: you're you're out here just trying to uh have conversations dishonestly,
[3:05:26] Speaker 2: which is why you were trying to tell me that
[3:05:29] Speaker 2: these poor women consented. But listen, stay woke, read up
[3:05:33] Speaker 2: on the passage, and bring your apologetic with you next time,
[3:05:36] Speaker 2: and then we'll talk about it a second time.
[3:05:41] Speaker 1: Be looking forward to it, all right, cheers man m.
[3:05:44] Speaker 2: Hm, m's buddy, welcome. I didn't even see you come in.
[3:05:49] Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. If I saw you in the guest box,
[3:05:50] Speaker 2: I would have brought you up.
[3:05:52] Speaker 19: It's that was like to people. I think that the
[3:05:55] Speaker 19: questions and the Muslims like when they read their book,
[3:05:58] Speaker 19: they do not they turn off put to their breenoff.
[3:06:01] Speaker 19: So they just read the words and mouth it out,
[3:06:04] Speaker 19: but they do not understand what they're reading.
[3:06:05] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true they're used to reading it for reading's sake,
[3:06:10] Speaker 2: but they're not really reading it for comprehensions sake. But
[3:06:15] Speaker 2: let me grab a couple of super chats guys, and
[3:06:16] Speaker 2: then we'll get our next guest into the guest box. Hilbert,
[3:06:20] Speaker 2: thank you so much for the one dollar super things,
[3:06:22] Speaker 2: and Adam Brown says, you have more patience than me
[3:06:25] Speaker 2: to speak with these people who only want to debate semantics.
[3:06:29] Speaker 2: Praise Doug, he nailed it. It is. It's really a
[3:06:32] Speaker 2: game of semantics all the time, and it is weary.
[3:06:36] Speaker 2: Drives me up the wall. It's a little bit wearisome.
[3:06:40] Speaker 2: Also a carnage Asana. Thank you for the two dollars
[3:06:42] Speaker 2: super thanks and La Silver Surfer with us, thank you
[3:06:45] Speaker 2: so much, Eli Severer Server for the four ninety nine
[3:06:48] Speaker 2: super Hype, and ZM, thank you so much for the
[3:06:50] Speaker 2: ten dollar super chest says the callers comments tonight are
[3:06:53] Speaker 2: definitely getting to me. I'm so sick of people defending
[3:06:56] Speaker 2: horrible things. I don't know how you do this so frequently.
[3:06:59] Speaker 2: Take care, ZM. Sometimes it does get under my skin
[3:07:03] Speaker 2: and I want to, like, you know, strangle somebody. I'm
[3:07:06] Speaker 2: a little bit tired tonight, so I may not be
[3:07:08] Speaker 2: as patient with some people, but I had a really
[3:07:12] Speaker 2: long week. I'm going to get some sleep tonight, though,
[3:07:14] Speaker 2: and maybe I'll be fresh for Friday. But You're right,
[3:07:17] Speaker 2: some of these apologists are frustrating. Grim, Thank you for
[3:07:21] Speaker 2: the six sixty six. W NERO says Adam and Eve
[3:07:25] Speaker 2: lost access to fresh fruit and vegetables. He literally said
[3:07:28] Speaker 2: that they only had processed foods. This is a level
[3:07:32] Speaker 2: of dumb that caused me unnecessary suffering. I love that, Grim. Yes,
[3:07:39] Speaker 2: we all unnecessary suffered with the stupidity of that last conversation.
[3:07:44] Speaker 2: And Grim says, the caller was a football player. Please
[3:07:47] Speaker 2: hurry up with the concussion protocol. He should have been
[3:07:50] Speaker 2: on a list a long time ago. You can't convince
[3:07:53] Speaker 2: me that he's not concussed. And Grim, again, thank you
[3:07:56] Speaker 2: so much for the sixties to six. Since this caller
[3:07:59] Speaker 2: is driving me to what pairs best with stupid? I
[3:08:02] Speaker 2: think the thing that pairs best with stupid is cracking.
[3:08:05] Speaker 2: And as it turns out, I've got I've got a
[3:08:08] Speaker 2: bottle of cracking with me, and I think we're gonna
[3:08:11] Speaker 2: do some partaking after that last guest Dennis, thank you
[3:08:15] Speaker 2: for the five dollars supertest, says I've said it before,
[3:08:17] Speaker 2: I'll say it again. Best show on TV. Well, thank
[3:08:19] Speaker 2: you so much, Dennis. I really really appreciate that. Thank
[3:08:23] Speaker 2: you for supporting, thank you for watching, share it with
[3:08:25] Speaker 2: all your friends and family.
[3:08:27] Speaker 19: TV.
[3:08:28] Speaker 2: Yet not yet, not yet. One day I hope to
[3:08:32] Speaker 2: be on TV. We'll see. I haven't made it there yet,
[3:08:34] Speaker 2: but I think the internet is almost the new TV.
[3:08:38] Speaker 2: We'll see. Jam says Woke's football career really helped prep
[3:08:44] Speaker 2: his brain. Yeah, you nail that. They really should have
[3:08:48] Speaker 2: put him on Protocol a while ago. And Jake again,
[3:08:51] Speaker 2: good to see you, Jake with a ten dollar supertest,
[3:08:54] Speaker 2: says Stay. Woke was a football player, so perhaps he
[3:08:56] Speaker 2: suffers from CTE cognitive theological entrapment. I love that cognitive
[3:09:02] Speaker 2: theological entrapment. I think that's the perfect description. And Jake
[3:09:07] Speaker 2: always coming in with amazing jokes and amazing wordplay. Definitely
[3:09:12] Speaker 2: love it. Also, if you're not already following Exodus Brothers
[3:09:16] Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast or on YouTube, make sure you do.
[3:09:19] Speaker 2: That's Jake's channel and he's doing like leaving cult material.
[3:09:24] Speaker 2: It's really good stuff, all right, I've got a couple
[3:09:28] Speaker 2: of super chats still yet, and then we'll get our
[3:09:30] Speaker 2: next one in here. Solar says, I hate phil brows
[3:09:33] Speaker 2: so much. What a massive pain in the ass. I know.
[3:09:36] Speaker 2: Phil brows are endless burden shifters. That's all they can
[3:09:39] Speaker 2: really do is burden shift, burden shift, burden shift. They
[3:09:41] Speaker 2: don't actually have an argument. And Jim Messi says, Ozzie
[3:09:44] Speaker 2: has never been touched, so chose apologetics. Yeah, that's pretty
[3:09:49] Speaker 2: much it. I don't know if Ems was here for Ozzy.
[3:09:51] Speaker 2: He was before the prior guest. He was a really
[3:09:55] Speaker 2: obnoxious phil bro that just wanted to endlessly burden shift
[3:09:59] Speaker 2: and complain about definitions.
[3:10:01] Speaker 19: I did remember what I came up to say. You
[3:10:04] Speaker 19: were talking with him about diseases and how he was
[3:10:07] Speaker 19: saying that diseases happened because of the fall of man.
[3:10:11] Speaker 19: So you know, like, I'm not sure if you are
[3:10:14] Speaker 19: familiar with this, but you do know that a lot
[3:10:17] Speaker 19: of a lot of different types of cancers are caused
[3:10:19] Speaker 19: by viruses viol infections. So you could have a virus
[3:10:23] Speaker 19: which is again the Microme organism per se outside if
[3:10:28] Speaker 19: your body, infecting your body, causing yourselves to develop cancer.
[3:10:31] Speaker 19: So again, you would have to say that these specific
[3:10:34] Speaker 19: viruses came into existence after the fall of Man.
[3:10:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, and we know for sure that there are some
[3:10:40] Speaker 2: animal species that are like not immune but pretty damn
[3:10:43] Speaker 2: near immune to most cancers.
[3:10:46] Speaker 19: So like that I mentioned the viruses I mentioned or
[3:10:50] Speaker 19: human specific the human pepperluma virus like this being hypo
[3:10:54] Speaker 19: like they see and some specific types of viruses that
[3:10:57] Speaker 19: cause human specific leukemia they do.
[3:11:01] Speaker 2: A million percent. I'm totally with you. We need to
[3:11:03] Speaker 2: bring this up with the next one. Bearded heretic, thank
[3:11:06] Speaker 2: you for the ten dollars. Supertet says, I would love
[3:11:09] Speaker 2: for a single theist argument to give me pause. The
[3:11:12] Speaker 2: fact that none of them can agree on a cohesive
[3:11:14] Speaker 2: viewpoint and show any demonstrable evidence just serves to reassure
[3:11:18] Speaker 2: me even more so. That's a really good point, Beard, Like,
[3:11:21] Speaker 2: I think when people first started getting into the debate spaces,
[3:11:24] Speaker 2: they think, oh, I'm curious, what you know argument the
[3:11:27] Speaker 2: Christians are going to bring, and then never bring anything good.
[3:11:30] Speaker 2: Even when I was a Christian, I was like, these
[3:11:33] Speaker 2: are not good arguments. Why are they doing this? Brice,
[3:11:36] Speaker 2: thank you for the ten dollars. Supertet says the moon
[3:11:38] Speaker 2: is the result of a collision between Earth and a
[3:11:41] Speaker 2: celestial body four point five billion years ago, so technically
[3:11:43] Speaker 2: the moon was touching the Earth then gravity took over.
[3:11:47] Speaker 2: Nothing to do with evolution. Yeah, that's my understanding. Plus,
[3:11:51] Speaker 2: it only moves like like an inch and a half
[3:11:54] Speaker 2: a year or some small stupid number, right, so like
[3:11:59] Speaker 2: that's not much an inch and a half for years not.
[3:12:02] Speaker 2: I know it adds up. I get it, but I
[3:12:06] Speaker 2: don't think that's a great argument. But anyways, that's all
[3:12:08] Speaker 2: he had. What are you gonna do? Brice says, if
[3:12:12] Speaker 2: the Bible's not one hundred percent true, then what grounds
[3:12:15] Speaker 2: your belief in any god? I'm sorry, I believe that
[3:12:19] Speaker 2: any god wrote it. Why accept a book that has
[3:12:22] Speaker 2: known lies on faith? I should have asked that question.
[3:12:25] Speaker 2: I didn't get around to it. But that's the right question.
[3:12:27] Speaker 2: If it says things that are untrue, why should you
[3:12:29] Speaker 2: trust any of it? Because if it's from God, you
[3:12:31] Speaker 2: shouldn't say anything that's false. And Carlos is with us tonight.
[3:12:35] Speaker 2: Good to see a Carlos, thank you for the ten dollars.
[3:12:37] Speaker 2: Are the ten subbies that you sent out? Big Big
[3:12:41] Speaker 2: w thank you for that, very generous. And Kevin, thank
[3:12:44] Speaker 2: you for the ten hours supertest. Kevin says, thank you
[3:12:47] Speaker 2: for what you do well, thank you for supporting the work.
[3:12:51] Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Kevin and Ford, thank you for the supertest, said,
[3:12:54] Speaker 2: religions change all the time. Religions that can't change, like
[3:12:57] Speaker 2: Christian science, die out. The caller should look into syncretism. Yes, precisely.
[3:13:04] Speaker 2: Secretism is the reason why religions stay is because they're flexible.
[3:13:08] Speaker 2: The ones that are completely inflexible eventually die out or
[3:13:11] Speaker 2: turn into death cults. Ar thank you for the super
[3:13:14] Speaker 2: chow Ouzy fled to apologists great refuge. Semantics. You're right,
[3:13:19] Speaker 2: that's that's all they have are semantics. That's it. And
[3:13:23] Speaker 2: uh Roke Rosen Rocken' ant rockin' anti. I don't. I
[3:13:30] Speaker 2: hope I said that right. Granddad got his good looks
[3:13:33] Speaker 2: from me. Yes, we're into the genealogy conversation. That's actually
[3:13:38] Speaker 2: really on point. And Mike says somebody said no one
[3:13:41] Speaker 2: would I'm sorry, no one could be worse than Ozzy,
[3:13:45] Speaker 2: and Stay Woke said, hold my beer. Yeah, I think it.
[3:13:50] Speaker 2: At least he was more palatable to talk to, even
[3:13:52] Speaker 2: if he was kind of slow meandering and wouldn't answer questions. Johannah, though,
[3:13:57] Speaker 2: thank you for the super chest says Justin is the
[3:13:59] Speaker 2: Bible true Christians? Yes, Justin is a Bible one hundred
[3:14:02] Speaker 2: percent true. Well not one hundred percent Justin? What is
[3:14:06] Speaker 2: not true? Call her? Hey man, how should I know?
[3:14:09] Speaker 2: I didn't read the book. You're right, that is every conversation.
[3:14:16] Speaker 2: And X JW thank you for the two dour Superhart
[3:14:20] Speaker 2: there we go. I appreciate that. And Samsa parks with
[3:14:23] Speaker 2: us tonight. Good to see his sands. It says which
[3:14:25] Speaker 2: of Noah's sons populated the America's Asia West Mifflin, PA.
[3:14:30] Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know. You got to go to
[3:14:32] Speaker 2: the Mormons for that. They're the ones with that answer.
[3:14:36] Speaker 2: So the Mormons got that one right. And Selah says
[3:14:39] Speaker 2: his name is stay woke, but he follows a dead Messiah. Yeah,
[3:14:42] Speaker 2: definitely not woke, not even close. And p S says
[3:14:46] Speaker 2: he just said some people were created for wrath. Yeah,
[3:14:50] Speaker 2: he must be a Calvinist. We didn't get to dive
[3:14:52] Speaker 2: deep into that, but that's a horrific theology. And Kevin,
[3:14:55] Speaker 2: thank you for the five dollars perten says if God
[3:14:58] Speaker 2: was real, he's evil a. I mean, why would he
[3:15:01] Speaker 2: create it where children have leukemia? Just cancer itself? Man
[3:15:05] Speaker 2: made up God, Bible for control. I'm with you in
[3:15:09] Speaker 2: the beginning. Man made God, not God made man. That's
[3:15:12] Speaker 2: the correct order of events. And Johannah, thank you again,
[3:15:15] Speaker 2: says this called things. God wants you to make a
[3:15:17] Speaker 2: little bit of space for him. Is he serious? As
[3:15:20] Speaker 2: far as I can tell, God wants to usurp every
[3:15:22] Speaker 2: part of your mental and physical being. That's such a
[3:15:25] Speaker 2: good point because when I was a Christian, we were
[3:15:27] Speaker 2: told that we have to give up everything, we have
[3:15:30] Speaker 2: to die to ourselves and live with Christ in us.
[3:15:34] Speaker 2: The idea is that you give up everything. Why would
[3:15:37] Speaker 2: God need that? Does he not already have all things? Crazy?
[3:15:42] Speaker 2: Thank you for the ninety nine super Things Boston Ice
[3:15:45] Speaker 2: and Johannah, following up again, says, I hereby renounce Eve
[3:15:49] Speaker 2: as a distant family member of mine. I would hate
[3:15:51] Speaker 2: to think that I'm related to one person who wrecked
[3:15:54] Speaker 2: women's lives for all eternity. And according to Paul and Timothy,
[3:15:57] Speaker 2: that's what happened. Eve is the reason why you can
[3:16:01] Speaker 2: only be saved through childbearing and boom and Boom says
[3:16:04] Speaker 2: the fall God's drop down menu a time out B
[3:16:09] Speaker 2: talking to oh, the fall God's dropped down menu, and
[3:16:13] Speaker 2: then the menu is a time out B talking to C.
[3:16:18] Speaker 2: Just forgive D fucking natural disasters. He went with D.
[3:16:23] Speaker 2: That's what he went to, the drop down menu, went
[3:16:25] Speaker 2: straight to D. And Johannah again says God's motto, do
[3:16:30] Speaker 2: as I say, not as I do. Yes, that's exactly
[3:16:33] Speaker 2: God's motto. God doesn't care about consistency. He just says,
[3:16:37] Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it. You can't do it, I can
[3:16:39] Speaker 2: do it. And Johannah, thank you for the super chat. Again.
[3:16:42] Speaker 2: He says, were women so different in the days of
[3:16:44] Speaker 2: the Bible that they just loved getting graped? According to Christians? Yeah,
[3:16:47] Speaker 2: and according to Christians it's okay because they're basically property Selah,
[3:16:51] Speaker 2: says a Christian, lying unheard of. Yeah, they would never
[3:16:55] Speaker 2: do that, right there, only embezzling millions of dollars from
[3:16:59] Speaker 2: their followers. Solar says, Jesus got crucified. That's tough. Should
[3:17:04] Speaker 2: have obeyed the Romans. That's such a good point. That's
[3:17:07] Speaker 2: such a good point. All Jesus had to do was
[3:17:10] Speaker 2: obey but of course he couldn't. It was predestined that
[3:17:13] Speaker 2: he would, you know, die and never come back. Dusty,
[3:17:16] Speaker 2: thank you for the twenty dour superchat, big w. I
[3:17:18] Speaker 2: appreciate that is three the same as seven. This guy
[3:17:21] Speaker 2: that's tough. I listen. I almost went to that contradiction
[3:17:25] Speaker 2: with him, and we just we didn't get there. Let
[3:17:28] Speaker 2: me grab three more superchats, guys. Sarah says that guy
[3:17:31] Speaker 2: was a tool bag. I agree with you. He wasn't
[3:17:33] Speaker 2: just a tool He was a tool bag. But he's
[3:17:35] Speaker 2: gonna come back and cook me with a future apologist argument. Oh, Sarah,
[3:17:39] Speaker 2: thank you for the two dour super Thanks and Zach,
[3:17:43] Speaker 2: thank you so much for the ninety ninety for cte
[3:17:46] Speaker 2: say cranal theological emptiness. That's another great play on words.
[3:17:50] Speaker 2: I like that one a lot. I like that one
[3:17:52] Speaker 2: a lot. Thank you so much, guys, and thank you
[3:17:54] Speaker 2: so much for all the gifts on TikTok. I really
[3:17:56] Speaker 2: do appreciate that. I see Ak's with us and Crispin
[3:18:01] Speaker 2: and Liz Steampunk's lapaquet sending handards. Thank you so much, Lapaquette,
[3:18:05] Speaker 2: and also miss Michelle and Bertram doctor Joe. Guys, thank
[3:18:09] Speaker 2: you so much for supporting me on TikTok and on
[3:18:12] Speaker 2: YouTube and for supporting the work. If you're not following MS,
[3:18:16] Speaker 2: make sure you do. EMS is also doing great work
[3:18:19] Speaker 2: out here. And I've had some people waiting on the
[3:18:21] Speaker 2: YouTube que I'm going to try to pull them in
[3:18:24] Speaker 2: because they've been waiting for quite a while, and we'll
[3:18:26] Speaker 2: keep the conversations moving forward. It looks like ag Wolf
[3:18:30] Speaker 2: is next. How you doing, ag Wolf? Hopefully Wolf didn't
[3:18:37] Speaker 2: fall asleep on us?
[3:18:40] Speaker 1: Wolf.
[3:18:41] Speaker 13: I think Wolf is out to lunch. Hello Wolf, not
[3:18:48] Speaker 13: so much? All right, Well, I.
[3:18:51] Speaker 2: Think Wolf fell asleep on us. I see some people
[3:18:54] Speaker 2: that are ready to rock. Looks like Michael's next. How
[3:18:57] Speaker 2: are you doing? Michael? Going good? Are you pretty well?
[3:19:03] Speaker 8: Pretty well? Thank you for having me on again.
[3:19:05] Speaker 2: Sure thing, Michael. What did we talk about last time?
[3:19:09] Speaker 8: Let's see if I can recall spend a minute proof
[3:19:15] Speaker 8: of Jesus. We talked about Isaiah, prophecies and the New
[3:19:20] Speaker 8: Testament moral subjectivity versus objectivity. Yeah, that's from what I
[3:19:30] Speaker 8: can recall there.
[3:19:31] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, So what's on your mind tonight?
[3:19:36] Speaker 8: Well, you did challenge me to read through some verses,
[3:19:40] Speaker 8: to look through the the Old Testament prophecies. And one
[3:19:45] Speaker 8: of the ones that I feel like a good argument
[3:19:46] Speaker 8: that you really put on me that I was focus
[3:19:49] Speaker 8: on I didn't have time to look for everyone was
[3:19:51] Speaker 8: Isaiah forty three. Sure you you made a good counter
[3:19:56] Speaker 8: argument saying that, oh, Isaiah, the servant that they're talking
[3:19:59] Speaker 8: about the first to the nation of Israel specifically as
[3:20:03] Speaker 8: you talked about earlier in Isaiah and reading through it,
[3:20:07] Speaker 8: I think I have sort of an answer to that
[3:20:12] Speaker 8: reading through it. The servant in Isaiah talks about that
[3:20:16] Speaker 8: their suffering will basically be the salvation of nations if
[3:20:20] Speaker 8: I'm looking at this right, but from my from the
[3:20:24] Speaker 8: logical standpoint, I was thinking about that that would mean
[3:20:27] Speaker 8: that in a way, the people that persecute if Israel
[3:20:31] Speaker 8: was the servant in this in fifty three, and that
[3:20:35] Speaker 8: would mean that the people by persecuting Israel would be justified,
[3:20:40] Speaker 8: which doesn't seem very logical if that If that makes sense.
[3:20:45] Speaker 2: So there's some struggling there under what's happening with the
[3:20:50] Speaker 2: suffering servant. So we have this situation happening where God
[3:20:56] Speaker 2: says at the beginning of the of the section in
[3:21:00] Speaker 2: chapter forty he says it's time for Israel to leave
[3:21:05] Speaker 2: their time in Babylon because their service has now been paid. Right,
[3:21:09] Speaker 2: there's sins of they've paid for their sins now, and
[3:21:12] Speaker 2: it says they've actually received double for their sins.
[3:21:15] Speaker 3: Right.
[3:21:15] Speaker 2: So they received the payment for their sins and then
[3:21:19] Speaker 2: extra right. So the question we have to ask ourselves
[3:21:22] Speaker 2: is why would that be the case? Why would God
[3:21:24] Speaker 2: give them double for their sins? And he explains between
[3:21:29] Speaker 2: chapter forty and chapter fifty nine on multiple occasions that
[3:21:34] Speaker 2: he's doing it so that when the nations see the
[3:21:39] Speaker 2: nation of Israel being vindicated, that they'll be so astonished
[3:21:44] Speaker 2: that this is happening that they'll recognize that Yahweh is
[3:21:48] Speaker 2: the one true God. In fact, Isaiah sixty two says,
[3:21:52] Speaker 2: the nations will see your vindication in all the kings,
[3:21:56] Speaker 2: your glory. No more will you be termed forsaken. And
[3:22:00] Speaker 2: then Micah seven sixteen says something similar about roughly the
[3:22:05] Speaker 2: same event, says the nations will see and be ashamed
[3:22:08] Speaker 2: of their might. They will lay their hands on their
[3:22:10] Speaker 2: mouth and their ears will become deaf. So there's this
[3:22:13] Speaker 2: idea carrying throughout not just Isaiah, but the other prophets
[3:22:17] Speaker 2: that after the Babylonian exile, God's going to come in
[3:22:20] Speaker 2: with a mighty and outstretched arm and demonstrate to everybody
[3:22:24] Speaker 2: who's the real God, just like he did with the Exodus.
[3:22:27] Speaker 2: Because with the Exodus, what do he do? He says,
[3:22:29] Speaker 2: I'm going to send all these plagues. Is going to
[3:22:30] Speaker 2: be a huge display, and then I'm going to you know,
[3:22:34] Speaker 2: I'll be casting judgment on all the gods of Egypt,
[3:22:36] Speaker 2: and everyone will know that I am the Lord. And
[3:22:39] Speaker 2: so the exodus from Babylon is supposed to be similar
[3:22:44] Speaker 2: to the Exodus of Egypt, right right, Sorry that was
[3:22:53] Speaker 2: a long winded answer.
[3:22:55] Speaker 8: No, No, that makes sense. That's that's an interesting counter.
[3:23:00] Speaker 2: Let me suggest one thing though, So on the idea
[3:23:04] Speaker 2: of like shoot, is the servant the nation of Israel
[3:23:07] Speaker 2: or is it an individual? Here's why I think here's
[3:23:12] Speaker 2: the symmetry breaker. Okay, So if it's about an individual,
[3:23:17] Speaker 2: then it just contradicts all the other prophecies about the
[3:23:20] Speaker 2: Messiah they just contradict. If it's about the nation of Israel,
[3:23:25] Speaker 2: it actually matches all the other prophecies about the nation
[3:23:28] Speaker 2: of Israel. We've got dozens of prophecies about Israel stating
[3:23:32] Speaker 2: that God's going to completely restore them, and then all
[3:23:35] Speaker 2: the nations are going to flock to Yahweh because they're
[3:23:39] Speaker 2: so amazed. Like Zachariah chapter eight says that ten people
[3:23:42] Speaker 2: from every nation and every tongue will grab hold of
[3:23:46] Speaker 2: the sleeve of a Jew and ask to go with
[3:23:49] Speaker 2: them because they have heard that God is with them.
[3:23:52] Speaker 2: So this is kind of the idea, is that God
[3:23:54] Speaker 2: is doing something so amazing that all the nations will
[3:23:57] Speaker 2: just be like, holy shit, did you see what God did?
[3:24:03] Speaker 4: Fair enough?
[3:24:04] Speaker 2: But that's also why I can't be Jewish. That's one
[3:24:07] Speaker 2: of the reasons is because I don't think these prophecies
[3:24:09] Speaker 2: came true.
[3:24:12] Speaker 8: Well, I mean, in a way, the nation of Israel
[3:24:14] Speaker 8: did come back from our own doing. I guess you
[3:24:15] Speaker 8: could argue of that self fulfillment.
[3:24:17] Speaker 12: Or not.
[3:24:19] Speaker 8: With our own will bringing that back into being, with
[3:24:22] Speaker 8: that divine providence, with Israel coming back into existence, right.
[3:24:27] Speaker 2: I don't think we got around to some of the
[3:24:30] Speaker 2: actual Messianic prophecies. When we chatted last time, we were
[3:24:35] Speaker 2: kind of I think we were talking about some of
[3:24:37] Speaker 2: the ones that were listed in the New Testament, But
[3:24:40] Speaker 2: there's a couple that might be really interesting for you.
[3:24:44] Speaker 2: We can go. Let's do Ezekiel thirty seven. Ezekiel, So
[3:24:51] Speaker 2: to me, when I'm looking like the definition of a
[3:24:54] Speaker 2: Messianic prophecy is a little bit vague. But to me,
[3:24:57] Speaker 2: I would say any prophecy that talked about the final
[3:25:04] Speaker 2: dividic king would be concerned that'd be a Messianic prophecy.
[3:25:08] Speaker 2: Messiah just means an anointed one like a king. So
[3:25:12] Speaker 2: if you go to Jeremiah, I'm sorry. Ezekiel thirty seven,
[3:25:17] Speaker 2: go to twenty four. Ezekiel refers to the Messiah in
[3:25:22] Speaker 2: two different ways. He refers to him as David, and
[3:25:25] Speaker 2: he also refers to him as a prince and also
[3:25:28] Speaker 2: a king. So in twenty four says, my servant David
[3:25:31] Speaker 2: will be king over them. They will have one shepherd.
[3:25:33] Speaker 2: They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe
[3:25:36] Speaker 2: my statutes. They shall live in the land that I
[3:25:39] Speaker 2: gave to my servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived.
[3:25:42] Speaker 2: They and their children and their children's children shall live
[3:25:45] Speaker 2: there forever, and my servant David will be their prince forever. Now,
[3:25:50] Speaker 2: one of the big issues that we have in Ezeel
[3:25:52] Speaker 2: thirty seven is this seems to be a prediction for
[3:25:56] Speaker 2: what's going to happen after the Babylonian exile, because if
[3:25:59] Speaker 2: you go to the big beginning of the chapter, Ezekiel
[3:26:02] Speaker 2: is prophesying about post babylon.
[3:26:08] Speaker 3: Right.
[3:26:08] Speaker 2: So he gives the vision of the dry bones, the
[3:26:11] Speaker 2: value of the dry bones, right, and then in verse
[3:26:13] Speaker 2: eleven he says, mortal, these bones are the whole house
[3:26:16] Speaker 2: of Israel. They say, our bones are dried up, and
[3:26:19] Speaker 2: our hope is lost. We are cut off completely because
[3:26:21] Speaker 2: they've been cut off from their land. Therefore, prophesy and
[3:26:24] Speaker 2: say to them so on and so forth.
[3:26:26] Speaker 13: Right.
[3:26:27] Speaker 2: So it seems to me that Ezekiel was under the
[3:26:31] Speaker 2: understanding that after the Babylonian exile we would have this
[3:26:35] Speaker 2: dividic kingdom again and it would never end, and then
[3:26:40] Speaker 2: it just didn't happen.
[3:26:43] Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think that's also one of the main
[3:26:46] Speaker 8: reasons as well. In the New Testament, the Pharisees were
[3:26:48] Speaker 8: also against Jesus Is because they were expecting a military
[3:26:53] Speaker 8: kingdom like it was described in Ezekiel. But I believe
[3:26:57] Speaker 8: the respective is it brought about a different type of kingdom,
[3:27:00] Speaker 8: and that's a lot of the conflict they had with
[3:27:02] Speaker 8: Jesus actually in the New Destiny as well.
[3:27:04] Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think you're wrong. I think there's kind
[3:27:08] Speaker 2: of two different voices in the Gospels in terms of
[3:27:13] Speaker 2: what they thought Jesus was supposed to do. And I
[3:27:16] Speaker 2: think one of the chapters that is helpful for kind
[3:27:21] Speaker 2: of hallucinating elucidating this is Luke chapter one. So go
[3:27:26] Speaker 2: to Luke chapter one and go to thirty three. There's
[3:27:30] Speaker 2: a prophecy about Jesus. So we're in the infancy territory, right.
[3:27:37] Speaker 2: He says he will be great. In thirty two. He
[3:27:39] Speaker 2: will be great, and he will be called the Son
[3:27:41] Speaker 2: of the Most High, and the Lord God will give
[3:27:44] Speaker 2: to him the throne of his ancestor David, and he
[3:27:47] Speaker 2: will reign over the House of Jacob forever, and of
[3:27:49] Speaker 2: his kingdom there will be no end. So this sounds
[3:27:53] Speaker 2: like a physical kingdom. He's going to get the throne
[3:27:55] Speaker 2: of King David. And if you had any question about
[3:27:58] Speaker 2: whether this was a spiritual or a physical thrown, he
[3:28:01] Speaker 2: kind of clears it up in like seventy two. So
[3:28:04] Speaker 2: later down in verse sixty or seventy, if you start
[3:28:08] Speaker 2: in sixty eight, Blessed be the Lord God. Of Israel,
[3:28:12] Speaker 2: for he has looked favorably upon his people and has
[3:28:14] Speaker 2: redeemed them. He has raised up a mighty savior for
[3:28:17] Speaker 2: us in the house of his child David, as he
[3:28:19] Speaker 2: spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.
[3:28:22] Speaker 2: So the question is what did they say? Right? It
[3:28:24] Speaker 2: says that we would be saved from our enemies and
[3:28:27] Speaker 2: the hand of all who hate us. So even like
[3:28:30] Speaker 2: in Luke, Luke is kind of paraphriing, paraphrasing Jeremiah twenty
[3:28:35] Speaker 2: three and Jeremiah thirty three, and Luke is saying, listen,
[3:28:39] Speaker 2: the prophecy said that we would be saved from the
[3:28:42] Speaker 2: hands of our enemies. And so my interpretation is that
[3:28:47] Speaker 2: Luke or whoever wrote Luke understood the prophecies the same
[3:28:52] Speaker 2: way that the Jews did, and they and the same
[3:28:54] Speaker 2: way I do. It's just that he was assuming Jesus
[3:28:58] Speaker 2: would come back and do it like so.
[3:29:03] Speaker 8: Right, right, that makes sense, And I believe that actually
[3:29:11] Speaker 8: plays into it that the the current theological consistence that
[3:29:14] Speaker 8: Jesus will come back, but this time with the sword.
[3:29:17] Speaker 2: Uh right describe yeah, yeah right, so uh. And the
[3:29:24] Speaker 2: question I would have is it seems to me that
[3:29:31] Speaker 2: what's happening is like all of the actual messianic parts
[3:29:36] Speaker 2: of the prophecies, like that the stuff that makes you
[3:29:39] Speaker 2: the real Messiah, all of those things get pushed to
[3:29:42] Speaker 2: the second coming. The stuff that he did when he
[3:29:46] Speaker 2: was here is like really generic stuff that anybody could
[3:29:49] Speaker 2: have done, like dying. I mean, I don't believe there's
[3:29:52] Speaker 2: a Messianic prophecy about dying, but theoretically that's the main
[3:29:55] Speaker 2: thing he did when he was here, But like anyone
[3:29:58] Speaker 2: could do that. Really, it's not really all that special, right, So, like, but.
[3:30:02] Speaker 8: I guess it would be. The special thing was that
[3:30:04] Speaker 8: he came back.
[3:30:05] Speaker 1: Apparently, right.
[3:30:07] Speaker 2: But yeah, this is where it gets sticky, right, is
[3:30:10] Speaker 2: because theoretically we would expect to see a prophecy about
[3:30:15] Speaker 2: the Messiah dying, rising and then coming back thousands of
[3:30:19] Speaker 2: years later. But none of the prophecies really read like that.
[3:30:22] Speaker 2: It doesn't read that the Messiah is going to die
[3:30:24] Speaker 2: and then come back many years later, just reads that
[3:30:27] Speaker 2: the Messiah is going to come. So you have to
[3:30:30] Speaker 2: kind of invent two different comings when there's not really
[3:30:33] Speaker 2: two different comings in the text, right, Okay, And it
[3:30:38] Speaker 2: seems like the reason why you need two Cummings is
[3:30:41] Speaker 2: because like the legitimate stuff just didn't happen.
[3:30:48] Speaker 8: Well, what do you mean the legitimate stuff didn't happen?
[3:30:51] Speaker 8: You mean like in terms of the prophecies or what
[3:30:53] Speaker 8: Jesus did.
[3:30:55] Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, the stuff that would that you could test,
[3:30:58] Speaker 2: that would make you a bonafide Messiah doesn't seem to happen.
[3:31:03] Speaker 2: Like I think we can boil down there. It needs
[3:31:06] Speaker 2: to be two criteria. One need to be an actual king.
[3:31:12] Speaker 2: I think that's explicit in the text. Number two is
[3:31:16] Speaker 2: I think you actually need to enact world peace, like
[3:31:22] Speaker 2: everybody has to be at peace. These two are so
[3:31:26] Speaker 2: firmly rooted in the Old Testament prophecies that the Jews
[3:31:30] Speaker 2: even today have a slogan. It's a two part slogan.
[3:31:33] Speaker 2: Sometimes they say one part, sometimes they say both. But
[3:31:36] Speaker 2: they'll say no peace, no Messiah, or they'll say no king,
[3:31:41] Speaker 2: no Messiah. It's this general idea that like anyone who's
[3:31:45] Speaker 2: really familiar with the Hebrew Bible knows that the two
[3:31:48] Speaker 2: main things the Messiah is supposed to do is bring
[3:31:51] Speaker 2: peace and to be a king.
[3:31:56] Speaker 8: Well, I guess you could say he did become than
[3:32:00] Speaker 8: the spiritual world. Christ's Kingdom, God's.
[3:32:04] Speaker 2: Kingdom, right, Yes, that's what the New Testament is trying
[3:32:07] Speaker 2: to say, right, So Luke.
[3:32:08] Speaker 8: Says, that's the lens it takes it for, is the
[3:32:11] Speaker 8: is the Kingdom of God. Essentially, he is now the
[3:32:14] Speaker 8: king of this new kingdom, which in a way is
[3:32:16] Speaker 8: the Church, and that's its kingdom on earth and force
[3:32:20] Speaker 8: to enact a new kingdom when he comes back.
[3:32:23] Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean that that's basically it.
[3:32:26] Speaker 8: Right.
[3:32:26] Speaker 2: The general idea is that it's it's not a literal kingdom,
[3:32:31] Speaker 2: it's a spiritual kingdom. But that gets really muddy to
[3:32:36] Speaker 2: me because it seems to me from the Hebrew Bible
[3:32:41] Speaker 2: that when it talks about like spiritual matters, it's not
[3:32:45] Speaker 2: referring to like the immaterial world, like spirits actually existed
[3:32:50] Speaker 2: in the real world, you know what I mean. Yeah,
[3:32:56] Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll find him in the Bible listed as shades
[3:33:00] Speaker 2: instead of spirits. Mm hmm.
[3:33:06] Speaker 8: Shades like a like a shade of a soul perhaps.
[3:33:10] Speaker 2: Or yes, yeah, yep. Or you'll find you'll find that
[3:33:15] Speaker 2: they're visible too, like so when Solomon is raised from
[3:33:18] Speaker 2: the dead by Saul in the Witch of Endor, like
[3:33:22] Speaker 2: he's visible, like as they're witnessing him come up there,
[3:33:25] Speaker 2: they describe what they're witnessed. He says, he looks like,
[3:33:28] Speaker 2: you know, the son of a god. So like these
[3:33:32] Speaker 2: spirits have like a physical, you know, manifestation in the
[3:33:38] Speaker 2: physical world.
[3:33:40] Speaker 1: They don't.
[3:33:40] Speaker 2: They don't seem to be immaterial.
[3:33:44] Speaker 8: Yeah, probably into the metaphysics, I think, Uh, I don't.
[3:33:49] Speaker 8: I don't really comprehend the whole aspects of of multiple
[3:33:54] Speaker 8: planes or anything. I've heard the arguments before that spiritual
[3:33:58] Speaker 8: realm is a different plane of existence entirely, and I'm
[3:34:03] Speaker 8: nowhere at that level of intellect to break down the
[3:34:06] Speaker 8: science or the logic behind that sort of argument of
[3:34:11] Speaker 8: something immaterial manifesting materially. It's an interesting it's an interesting thought,
[3:34:17] Speaker 8: I think. But yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I don't really
[3:34:21] Speaker 8: know where I'm going with this line of this.
[3:34:24] Speaker 2: Logic here, That's okay. I think part of the problem
[3:34:26] Speaker 2: with the afterlife is like the Book of Revelation and elsewhere,
[3:34:28] Speaker 2: it talks about how it's going to be a renewed
[3:34:30] Speaker 2: heaven and renewed Earth like Revelation twenty one, and like
[3:34:35] Speaker 2: all the stuff that was wrong is going to be
[3:34:38] Speaker 2: made right in the renewed Heaven and new renewed Earth,
[3:34:41] Speaker 2: but it's going to be here on the actual earth,
[3:34:44] Speaker 2: where the wolf lies down with the lamb, and the
[3:34:47] Speaker 2: kid lies down with the snake, and so on and
[3:34:51] Speaker 2: so forth. It seems to me that from most of
[3:34:55] Speaker 2: the Bible, the renewed Heaven and the renewed Earth, it
[3:34:59] Speaker 2: is the after life. It's not like a spiritual otherworldly plane.
[3:35:03] Speaker 2: It's here on the earth. They're just going to fix
[3:35:05] Speaker 2: all this stuff, right.
[3:35:07] Speaker 8: And I think that was actually brought to me at
[3:35:09] Speaker 8: one point, is that someone brought up that there's a
[3:35:11] Speaker 8: theological misconception that the Bible says that people are in
[3:35:14] Speaker 8: heaven right now, but based on the Book of Revelation,
[3:35:17] Speaker 8: people aren't in heaven yet because the heaven will be
[3:35:21] Speaker 8: because there will be a new heaven and new Earth
[3:35:23] Speaker 8: as described in Revelation, and that will be basically after
[3:35:26] Speaker 8: the earth is destroyed and made a new that that
[3:35:30] Speaker 8: will be God's kingdom essentially right afterlife. Yeah, I thought
[3:35:36] Speaker 8: that's that's also something interesting that a lot of Christians
[3:35:38] Speaker 8: kind of received, like, oh, once you die, you go
[3:35:40] Speaker 8: to heaven. But the Bible more describes it as from
[3:35:43] Speaker 8: what I understand, a period of rest. I'm not sure
[3:35:45] Speaker 8: if that's entirely theologically sound before the time of judgment
[3:35:51] Speaker 8: comes about. So I'm just poor literacy, or maybe we
[3:35:55] Speaker 8: don't read our Bibles enough.
[3:35:57] Speaker 2: Maybe trust me, like you're reading it more than most Christians.
[3:36:00] Speaker 2: Let me tap into twenty one real quick with the
[3:36:04] Speaker 2: new Heaven and New Earth, so that I saw a
[3:36:06] Speaker 2: new Heaven and a new Earth, and the first Heaven
[3:36:09] Speaker 2: and the first Earth had passed away, and the sea
[3:36:12] Speaker 2: was no more, and I saw the Holy City, the
[3:36:15] Speaker 2: New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared
[3:36:19] Speaker 2: as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard
[3:36:22] Speaker 2: a loud voice from the throne saying, see, the home
[3:36:25] Speaker 2: of God is among mortals. So this seems to be
[3:36:28] Speaker 2: this idea that the wh're when this heavenly period happens,
[3:36:34] Speaker 2: it's going to be here on the actual earth where
[3:36:36] Speaker 2: we're at, Like God's dwelling in the heavens is going
[3:36:39] Speaker 2: to come down to earth. Kind Of the problem we
[3:36:41] Speaker 2: have with this is everybody in the ancient world, including
[3:36:44] Speaker 2: the Biblical authors, kind of assumed that God's home is
[3:36:47] Speaker 2: just up in the skies. So when we say the
[3:36:49] Speaker 2: word heaven, like both in Greek and in Hebrew it
[3:36:53] Speaker 2: refers to just disgise above our heads. It wasn't until
[3:36:57] Speaker 2: later time periods when we were able to to explore
[3:37:01] Speaker 2: the heavens that were like, oh, it can't it can't
[3:37:04] Speaker 2: be the heavens above our head because there's no gods
[3:37:07] Speaker 2: up there, right, And so we had to recreate this
[3:37:10] Speaker 2: idea of what what heaven meant to be. But in
[3:37:13] Speaker 2: the Biblical text, you know, the afterlife, the heaven is
[3:37:17] Speaker 2: always going to be the renewed earth, and the heavens
[3:37:20] Speaker 2: just the clouds and whatnot above our heads.
[3:37:23] Speaker 8: Yeah, well, maybe that is describing actually, like what John
[3:37:29] Speaker 8: is seeing in the process is like he's actually seeing
[3:37:31] Speaker 8: something come down from space from the sky perhaps, But yeah,
[3:37:37] Speaker 8: I mean, I'm not sure where else heaven would be
[3:37:40] Speaker 8: mentioned like that. Again, I'm not too familiar with the
[3:37:44] Speaker 8: Greek or the Hebrew where it would be described in
[3:37:46] Speaker 8: other parts. I wonder if it's described that that another
[3:37:49] Speaker 8: place where it describes the afterlife other than revelation in
[3:37:52] Speaker 8: this instance.
[3:37:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think the problem I have with this
[3:37:58] Speaker 2: New Testament idea of the app for life and heaven
[3:38:01] Speaker 2: and whatnot is it seems to be that everybody assumed
[3:38:04] Speaker 2: it was happening imminently. So like in One Corinthian seven,
[3:38:09] Speaker 2: Paul is instructing people like if you're not married, don't
[3:38:12] Speaker 2: get married. If you are married, live as though you're
[3:38:14] Speaker 2: not married, like, don't even have kids, because he says
[3:38:19] Speaker 2: the present form of this world is passing away, like
[3:38:23] Speaker 2: his understanding. He says something similar in First Thessalonians chapter four.
[3:38:28] Speaker 2: His understanding was that the world is passing away imminently,
[3:38:31] Speaker 2: and Jesus says the same thing in Revelation. He says,
[3:38:34] Speaker 2: these are the things that are soon to take place.
[3:38:37] Speaker 2: So like my reading of the New Testament is that
[3:38:41] Speaker 2: it's like a failed you know, end times apocalyptic cult.
[3:38:50] Speaker 8: I mean, that's a good point, and I've heard the
[3:38:53] Speaker 8: argument put forward that in terms of what would assume
[3:38:57] Speaker 8: I believe it's described. I think it's in the oldest
[3:39:00] Speaker 8: I forget in which first exactly that a thousand years
[3:39:04] Speaker 8: to God is like a day. I'm not sure if
[3:39:06] Speaker 8: I'm quoting that exactly right.
[3:39:09] Speaker 2: Close enough.
[3:39:11] Speaker 8: Yeah, I know this is probably this is a sidetrack point,
[3:39:16] Speaker 8: but someone has brought up the fact, well, actually, maybe
[3:39:18] Speaker 8: it's going to be like it is in three days,
[3:39:21] Speaker 8: where it's essentially close to maybe three thousand years or
[3:39:24] Speaker 8: two thousand and some change exactly. That's but that's breading
[3:39:28] Speaker 8: into like when people think the end would actually come.
[3:39:32] Speaker 8: But that's a sidetrack, I guess in that point. And
[3:39:36] Speaker 8: I believe also in the Bible it mentions that no
[3:39:38] Speaker 8: man will know the day or the hour. Jesus did
[3:39:41] Speaker 8: mention that at some point, and one of the synoptics
[3:39:44] Speaker 8: I believe, yeah he did. Yeah again, I'm sorry if
[3:39:49] Speaker 8: I misquote anything in particular.
[3:39:51] Speaker 2: No, No, you're doing great.
[3:39:53] Speaker 8: Yeah, but yeah, I guess the only argument is that
[3:39:57] Speaker 8: Paul really wouldn't know when it was, so I guess
[3:39:59] Speaker 8: he was just writing to the churches at the time
[3:40:02] Speaker 8: to act like the time could be at any point,
[3:40:04] Speaker 8: because it really could have been.
[3:40:06] Speaker 13: Right.
[3:40:08] Speaker 2: So, and I think the reason why Paul was under
[3:40:11] Speaker 2: the impression it was because Jesus, I think, taught that
[3:40:15] Speaker 2: he was. I think Jesus taught his disciples he was
[3:40:17] Speaker 2: coming back imminutely, because in Matthew sixteen twenty seven through
[3:40:21] Speaker 2: twenty eight, he says that he's coming back, says some
[3:40:24] Speaker 2: of you standing here will not pass away until he
[3:40:29] Speaker 2: comes comes. Writing on the clouds, let me grab that
[3:40:32] Speaker 2: passage real quick.
[3:40:34] Speaker 8: Yeah, and that's I've actually read over that one before,
[3:40:38] Speaker 8: and I have a struggled with that passage specifically. I
[3:40:41] Speaker 8: know that the I think the Mormon tradition is that
[3:40:44] Speaker 8: they believe that John is still alive. But from one
[3:40:47] Speaker 8: understand what we understand from historical accounts, I think I
[3:40:49] Speaker 8: think that John actually is dead.
[3:40:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, he's gone. It's also true that it says some
[3:40:55] Speaker 2: and some is always more than one and less than all.
[3:40:59] Speaker 2: And this is a tough one. This is actually the
[3:41:01] Speaker 2: very first Bible passage that I heard that was problematic
[3:41:06] Speaker 2: for me. I was probably sixteen or seventeen. I was
[3:41:09] Speaker 2: in Catholic school and it came up during one of
[3:41:12] Speaker 2: our religion courses and we had a pretty lengthy discussion
[3:41:15] Speaker 2: on it. At the time, I was willing to accept
[3:41:18] Speaker 2: the apologetic for it, but over the course of years,
[3:41:22] Speaker 2: I found the apologetic to not be as palatable. But
[3:41:26] Speaker 2: it's a tough one, right, Michael, how long you've been
[3:41:36] Speaker 2: in christian.
[3:41:39] Speaker 8: I was baptized when I was eight years old, but
[3:41:43] Speaker 8: I actually came to the faith of my own reasoning
[3:41:47] Speaker 8: when I was sixteen. I didn't exactly grow up in
[3:41:51] Speaker 8: a Christian him. My grandfather was a pastor, but my
[3:41:56] Speaker 8: dad and mom were not religious. Finding since me there
[3:42:01] Speaker 8: was there's still some moral disagreements. I love my parents,
[3:42:04] Speaker 8: but there's there's things we disagree on morally. I've I've
[3:42:07] Speaker 8: had arguments specifically about objective morality, if there's a if
[3:42:12] Speaker 8: there is true right or wrong, or if things are subjective.
[3:42:14] Speaker 8: I've had this argument with my my step mom plenty
[3:42:17] Speaker 8: of times. But yeah, it was it was a moment
[3:42:23] Speaker 8: where I kind of came to a realization that my life,
[3:42:27] Speaker 8: essentially I was I was living a life essentially where
[3:42:30] Speaker 8: I was very prideful, I was living by my own means,
[3:42:34] Speaker 8: and I kind of came to a moment where I
[3:42:38] Speaker 8: had to see that it was I was blaming the
[3:42:41] Speaker 8: world for the problems in my life. Like I was like, oh,
[3:42:43] Speaker 8: it's but that moment I kind of realized that, yeah,
[3:42:48] Speaker 8: that's what the problems that in my life are on
[3:42:51] Speaker 8: my own doing my own sinful nature, I guess. And
[3:42:55] Speaker 8: I gave it to Jesus at that moment. And over
[3:42:57] Speaker 8: over the years I've kind of been reading more into it,
[3:43:01] Speaker 8: trying to understand the faith as much as I can,
[3:43:04] Speaker 8: and I'm sorry if I'm I'm rambling too much or
[3:43:07] Speaker 8: I'm being No, you're doing great incoherent here. It is
[3:43:11] Speaker 8: a little late for.
[3:43:12] Speaker 1: Me, but yeah, me too.
[3:43:14] Speaker 2: I gotta get to bed soon. But it sounds to
[3:43:16] Speaker 2: me like you're just kind of wrestling with reality, and
[3:43:19] Speaker 2: I think that's what we're all doing, Like we're all
[3:43:21] Speaker 2: just wrestling with reality, trying to figure out what's real
[3:43:25] Speaker 2: and what's not. And so I can definitely sympathize with
[3:43:29] Speaker 2: where you're at. I was a young Christian myself when
[3:43:33] Speaker 2: I was your age that you know, was really born
[3:43:35] Speaker 2: again in my teenage years, and then as I got
[3:43:38] Speaker 2: into my younger twenties, started to really study the Bible
[3:43:42] Speaker 2: and ask difficult questions because I did not want to
[3:43:46] Speaker 2: believe I'm blind faith. And then I went to Bible
[3:43:49] Speaker 2: college and seminary, and it was for me, it was
[3:43:52] Speaker 2: really studying the Bible that proved to me that it
[3:43:55] Speaker 2: is not true. Now that doesn't mean there's no God,
[3:43:58] Speaker 2: like it's possible that there's still God, not this God.
[3:44:01] Speaker 2: I came to the conclusion that there's no God, but
[3:44:03] Speaker 2: it certainly is possible that there is a God, and
[3:44:06] Speaker 2: it's just not like anything we can describe. That being said,
[3:44:11] Speaker 2: I'm one hundred percent convinced that the God of the
[3:44:14] Speaker 2: Bible can't exist, not the way the Bible describes it, right, right, I.
[3:44:22] Speaker 8: Mean I get I guess my main point. I guess
[3:44:25] Speaker 8: I argued this before would be the historical what we
[3:44:29] Speaker 8: know for sure about Jesus him existing. He was, he
[3:44:33] Speaker 8: was crucified on a pompous pilot, and then but people
[3:44:36] Speaker 8: claim that he came back, and I think that's that's
[3:44:39] Speaker 8: what really is. Like, solda is like, okay, so a
[3:44:42] Speaker 8: lot of people claim to the point of death that
[3:44:45] Speaker 8: they saw this man come back from the dead. And
[3:44:49] Speaker 8: you know, I've heard the argument before like oh yeah,
[3:44:51] Speaker 8: people can die for a lie, but you wouldn't die
[3:44:53] Speaker 8: for something you know to be a lie and still
[3:44:56] Speaker 8: proclaim it. And that's that's something I really struggle with
[3:44:59] Speaker 8: to think about, Like, that's it's something very crazy to
[3:45:01] Speaker 8: think about. It is ridiculous to think, like, oh, this
[3:45:04] Speaker 8: man died and he came back to dead from the
[3:45:06] Speaker 8: dead and he claims to be God. So it's it's
[3:45:08] Speaker 8: a really weird thing and it's hard to struggle with.
[3:45:11] Speaker 8: But I that's one thing that I still can't wrap
[3:45:15] Speaker 8: my head around how else that would be. I guess
[3:45:18] Speaker 8: that so many people would proclaim that they saw someone
[3:45:21] Speaker 8: come back and then die after being basically tortured, saying like, hey,
[3:45:27] Speaker 8: stop saying this, and they wouldn't.
[3:45:29] Speaker 2: So right, And so I can understand why that's a
[3:45:32] Speaker 2: powerful argument for you. On my side, I would ask,
[3:45:36] Speaker 2: how do we know that that is actually the case?
[3:45:38] Speaker 2: Because the stories we have of the martyrdom of the
[3:45:41] Speaker 2: Disciples are many hundreds of years after the fact, and
[3:45:45] Speaker 2: they include all kinds of really crazy details, like if
[3:45:48] Speaker 2: you read the apocryphal Acts of Peter, like Simon Magus
[3:45:52] Speaker 2: and Peter get into a wizard's duel, and a dog
[3:45:56] Speaker 2: gives a speech, and there's a a suckling baby at
[3:46:01] Speaker 2: his mother's teat that ends up giving a speech. So
[3:46:04] Speaker 2: like the idea that the disciples were like they were
[3:46:08] Speaker 2: steadfastly convinced unto death of what they witnessed. To me,
[3:46:12] Speaker 2: I don't think it seems all that true, because if
[3:46:15] Speaker 2: I like, there are other accounts of what happened to
[3:46:19] Speaker 2: some of his disciples, like in Sanhedrin forty three A
[3:46:21] Speaker 2: in the Talmud, where it seems like they didn't really
[3:46:25] Speaker 2: have a choice. Like when they rounded up Jesus to
[3:46:28] Speaker 2: kill him, they grabbed his disciples and killed them too.
[3:46:31] Speaker 2: It wasn't that they gave them the option to renounce
[3:46:34] Speaker 2: their faith and save themselves. It seems like they're like, hey,
[3:46:38] Speaker 2: here's some troublemakers, let's take care of it.
[3:46:42] Speaker 8: But I mean from this, we know that at least
[3:46:46] Speaker 8: that some of the disciples were around at least because
[3:46:49] Speaker 8: to start the early Church you had a Peter and
[3:46:52] Speaker 8: John as well that were that wrote the Book of
[3:46:56] Speaker 8: Revelation later on, at least it was attributed to him.
[3:46:58] Speaker 8: So I don't know how accer that account would be
[3:47:00] Speaker 8: that they killed all the disciples immediately. I mean they
[3:47:03] Speaker 8: they definitely survived after the fact. There are unless I'm mistaken.
[3:47:09] Speaker 2: You're not mistaken, there are five of them that were
[3:47:11] Speaker 2: murdered alongside of Jesus or shortly after Jesus according to
[3:47:15] Speaker 2: the writings of the Sanhedrin. According to the Bible, we
[3:47:18] Speaker 2: only have James, not James the brother James, the son
[3:47:22] Speaker 2: of Alphaeus. I believe so we or was it Zebedee
[3:47:28] Speaker 2: I forget? It's okay, but so James died in the Bible. Uh,
[3:47:35] Speaker 2: it seems pretty likely that Paul was died in prison
[3:47:40] Speaker 2: or I think that's what happened, but we're not really
[3:47:45] Speaker 2: in prison. Yeah, so, like we don't really know how
[3:47:48] Speaker 2: these people died. It's possible that they caused enough trouble
[3:47:51] Speaker 2: that the Romans were just like, okay, time to get
[3:47:54] Speaker 2: rid of them, and like they didn't give them the
[3:47:56] Speaker 2: option to recant their faith. It's also possible that they
[3:47:59] Speaker 2: weren't executed at all. And these are just mythologies. But
[3:48:04] Speaker 2: that being said, I think people are willing to let
[3:48:07] Speaker 2: me tell you what I think happened. Okay. In the
[3:48:09] Speaker 2: first century, there were a lot of resurrection accounts. There's
[3:48:13] Speaker 2: a lot a big fervor over people who theoretically resurrected.
[3:48:17] Speaker 2: I can think of like a dozen people that claim
[3:48:19] Speaker 2: to have resurrected around the time of Jesus. The most
[3:48:22] Speaker 2: famous is probably Nero. Right, some of them were so
[3:48:27] Speaker 2: believable because there were impostors coming through later claiming to
[3:48:32] Speaker 2: be that resurrected person, and so they were convincing many people. So,
[3:48:36] Speaker 2: for example, the Parthian army went to war with the Romans,
[3:48:39] Speaker 2: believing that the resurrected Nero was leading them into war.
[3:48:44] Speaker 2: And he had been deified. He'd resurrected and was deified.
[3:48:47] Speaker 2: I was going to lead them in the war, and
[3:48:49] Speaker 2: they would put him on his rightful place on the throne.
[3:48:52] Speaker 2: And then they got devastated. Right, So, I think probably
[3:48:56] Speaker 2: an impostor came along just like Nero and claimed I'm
[3:48:58] Speaker 2: the resurrected Jesus to one or two people. That was
[3:49:01] Speaker 2: enough to get the ball rolling. They were completely convinced,
[3:49:04] Speaker 2: and then the disciples that were so grief stricken were like,
[3:49:07] Speaker 2: oh my God, he came back from the dead. Because
[3:49:09] Speaker 2: we have similar accounts in history from this time period
[3:49:13] Speaker 2: of many people believing that an individual raised from the
[3:49:17] Speaker 2: dead just based on the witness of one or two people.
[3:49:23] Speaker 8: Well, from the gospel accounts, you've had these people, like
[3:49:27] Speaker 8: the Disciples that have lived, dined, and followed Jesus around.
[3:49:32] Speaker 8: I don't know if they would be so easily convinced
[3:49:34] Speaker 8: that it was an impostor that they saw if if
[3:49:37] Speaker 8: the accounts are to be believed, that they saw him
[3:49:39] Speaker 8: in person and actually had ate and touched them physically.
[3:49:44] Speaker 2: Right, well, I think that the fact that it was
[3:49:47] Speaker 2: an impostor explains why on the road to Emmaeus they
[3:49:51] Speaker 2: didn't recognize them. Mary Magdalen didn't recognize them.
[3:49:55] Speaker 1: Oh.
[3:49:55] Speaker 2: I would also say too that I don't believe the
[3:50:00] Speaker 2: Gospels are true, right, I think their mythologies. For example,
[3:50:05] Speaker 2: there was a narrative that was written about of a
[3:50:09] Speaker 2: Greek man who resurrected, where in the original earliest story
[3:50:13] Speaker 2: of the Greek man, the body just went missing, that
[3:50:16] Speaker 2: was it. No one knew what happened to it. Subsequent
[3:50:19] Speaker 2: stories were built and it eventually ended with, you know,
[3:50:24] Speaker 2: three hundred years later, people claiming he wasn't just dead
[3:50:28] Speaker 2: and the body missing, He actually resurrected and there were
[3:50:31] Speaker 2: witnesses and it started a cult following.
[3:50:34] Speaker 1: Right.
[3:50:35] Speaker 2: So for me, it's hard, like when I'm reading the
[3:50:38] Speaker 2: other text from the time period, it's hard for me
[3:50:40] Speaker 2: to believe that what we hear about, like what we
[3:50:44] Speaker 2: read in the Gospels, is like a legitimate historical account,
[3:50:48] Speaker 2: because I see other accounts just like them purporting the
[3:50:54] Speaker 2: same claims.
[3:51:00] Speaker 8: Mean, it's definitely an interesting problem, is an interesting thing
[3:51:04] Speaker 8: to think about, because that would be like legit. The
[3:51:06] Speaker 8: juxt of the argument is did Jesus come back from
[3:51:10] Speaker 8: the dead, and if so, what do you believe about
[3:51:12] Speaker 8: that that would be like, really the core foundation for
[3:51:15] Speaker 8: this argument, and it's a it's an interesting thing to
[3:51:17] Speaker 8: grapple with.
[3:51:19] Speaker 2: There's a book I want to send to you. It's
[3:51:24] Speaker 2: it's a very academic work. It's expensive. I'll I'll send
[3:51:29] Speaker 2: it to you.
[3:51:30] Speaker 4: Don't.
[3:51:30] Speaker 2: You don't have to pay for it. Okay, I'll pay
[3:51:33] Speaker 2: for it.
[3:51:34] Speaker 5: It's you don't.
[3:51:35] Speaker 8: You don't, you don't have to. That's that's that's that's
[3:51:38] Speaker 8: a little that's that's I don't. I don't want to
[3:51:40] Speaker 8: cause a lot of financial burden.
[3:51:41] Speaker 2: No, it's really trust me, it's not a burden for me. Also,
[3:51:45] Speaker 2: it's a really good book, and I think it will illustrate,
[3:51:48] Speaker 2: it'll put some context to what's happening with this whole
[3:51:53] Speaker 2: empty tomb situation. There's a scholar named John Cook who
[3:51:56] Speaker 2: wrote a book called Empty Tomb Resurrection upon Theosis, where
[3:52:01] Speaker 2: he documents how empty tombs, resurrections and apotheosis was very
[3:52:07] Speaker 2: common at the time of Jesus and demonstrates how Jesus's
[3:52:12] Speaker 2: narrative is very similar to other narratives from the time period.
[3:52:16] Speaker 2: I think it'd be worthwhile to skim through it, even
[3:52:18] Speaker 2: if you don't read the whole thing. It is like
[3:52:20] Speaker 2: seven hundred pages, so you probably can read the whole
[3:52:23] Speaker 2: thing overnight, but it's definitely worth skimming through and seeing, Oh,
[3:52:28] Speaker 2: here's other stories of people sound very familiar to Jesus's story.
[3:52:36] Speaker 8: Well, at the very least, I think it would be
[3:52:38] Speaker 8: a good for argument's sake to at least from either
[3:52:41] Speaker 8: way exploring and finding truth. I think that that's very
[3:52:45] Speaker 8: important is knowing what's true and from well, I understand,
[3:52:50] Speaker 8: I believe that currently that Jesus did rise from the dead,
[3:52:54] Speaker 8: and I do believe that to be ejectively true. But
[3:52:56] Speaker 8: I'm willing to at least look over arguments and dissect them,
[3:52:59] Speaker 8: and yeah, try and get things right and see.
[3:53:03] Speaker 2: What's for Let's see this. It's almost my bedtime.
[3:53:08] Speaker 8: It is almost mine as well.
[3:53:09] Speaker 2: I know, I think we're in the same time zone.
[3:53:11] Speaker 2: You're delightful to talk to come back soon. Let when
[3:53:14] Speaker 2: you come back, let's talk resurrection and we'll kind of
[3:53:18] Speaker 2: cover some of the basis points of the resurrection, because
[3:53:22] Speaker 2: I think it's a good topic.
[3:53:25] Speaker 8: Right right, it would be. It's a judged physician. I
[3:53:28] Speaker 8: think Paul actually writes that if Christ has not come
[3:53:31] Speaker 8: back from the dead, then you are still dead in
[3:53:33] Speaker 8: your sins essentially, so that that is essentially the core
[3:53:36] Speaker 8: aspect of Christianity.
[3:53:39] Speaker 2: Nailed that. Yep, all right, Michael, Listen, these are difficult
[3:53:45] Speaker 2: conversations and you're handling them very well. So kudos to you.
[3:53:50] Speaker 8: Well, thank you. I try to be patient and graceful. Yeah,
[3:53:54] Speaker 8: attempt to God willing as poor whatever you believe.
[3:53:58] Speaker 2: I spoke, Well, thanks are coming and chat with us
[3:54:01] Speaker 2: and come back saying okay, thank you here your friend
[3:54:07] Speaker 2: w for Michael. We talked to Michael a week or
[3:54:10] Speaker 2: two ago and we had a really good conversation, really
[3:54:14] Speaker 2: really good conversation. But that being said, let me get
[3:54:18] Speaker 2: through our superchats. We got a couple of super chests
[3:54:21] Speaker 2: to get through. Jeremy, thank you for the super jet.
[3:54:25] Speaker 2: It says you should change your tactic on David and
[3:54:28] Speaker 2: the grape. Interesting. Okay, if you're talking to a man,
[3:54:31] Speaker 2: put him in the place of David, ask him about
[3:54:34] Speaker 2: what God does to his son. Oh yeah, So we
[3:54:37] Speaker 2: don't talk about what happened to the son of David often,
[3:54:40] Speaker 2: but we should because the song was made sick for
[3:54:43] Speaker 2: seven days and then got you know, and that's horrific.
[3:54:47] Speaker 2: If God did that to my child, I would be mortified.
[3:54:50] Speaker 2: I mean, you're You're correct, Jeremy. We should focus on
[3:54:52] Speaker 2: both punishments, he says again for a woman, ask if
[3:54:56] Speaker 2: she was one of the wives. Oh yeah, listen, I
[3:54:59] Speaker 2: know ever hear this bullshit from women only for men.
[3:55:03] Speaker 2: Men are the ones saying they consented, And Morpheus says,
[3:55:07] Speaker 2: where was the forgiveness for Adam and Eve? First?
[3:55:11] Speaker 3: Sin?
[3:55:12] Speaker 2: This is my I'm with you, this is my complaint.
[3:55:16] Speaker 2: They didn't know right from wrong. Why would God not
[3:55:19] Speaker 2: just forgive them and move on? It's their first thing.
[3:55:22] Speaker 2: They didn't know that disobedience is even a problem because
[3:55:26] Speaker 2: it's myth.
[3:55:28] Speaker 19: You know, the beginning of the butterflavict.
[3:55:31] Speaker 2: Yes, it is. He needed it. The story relies upon it.
[3:55:36] Speaker 2: That's why Grim thank you for the six sixty six
[3:55:40] Speaker 2: hail Satan hail Nero, says Isaiah seven foirteen, looking at
[3:55:43] Speaker 2: different translations for a second, forget virgin thing. Why are
[3:55:47] Speaker 2: half these translations future tense about the conception because they're
[3:55:51] Speaker 2: lying to you. It doesn't say that she will become pregnant.
[3:55:56] Speaker 2: It refers to her as a hat almah hurrah, which
[3:56:00] Speaker 2: means a pregnant young woman. And it's not future tense.
[3:56:03] Speaker 2: The future tense doesn't start until the naming of the child.
[3:56:07] Speaker 2: And that's it because the prophecy was given while she
[3:56:09] Speaker 2: was pregnant. That's all there is to it. So the
[3:56:12] Speaker 2: translations are just lying to you. Grim Now. In the
[3:56:15] Speaker 2: Greek septuagint, it is future tense. The Greek septu agent
[3:56:19] Speaker 2: changed it. I don't know why they did it that way,
[3:56:23] Speaker 2: but that's what they did. Unfortunately, let's see, we've got
[3:56:29] Speaker 2: a couple of super chats still left. Angel V with
[3:56:33] Speaker 2: us says justin deconstruction, atheist patron saint of undeserved patients
[3:56:38] Speaker 2: and cephalopods. That's really good. That's really good. Some people
[3:56:46] Speaker 2: don't know what a cephalopod is. Make sure you look
[3:56:48] Speaker 2: that up. That's a good one. I really appreciate that. Angel.
[3:56:53] Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm a patron saint of anything
[3:56:55] Speaker 2: except for kracking and hypnose. Welcome to the Crack and
[3:56:58] Speaker 2: Crew elite that we've gotten there and Ax, thank you
[3:57:03] Speaker 2: for the supertests. I don't know who gifted me a membership.
[3:57:05] Speaker 2: I just got done with work, but thank you kindly.
[3:57:09] Speaker 2: Let's all stay rock hard for Doug Love your content.
[3:57:12] Speaker 2: Justin well Ax, thank you so much for watching and
[3:57:15] Speaker 2: supporting the channel. I really appreciate that. And definitely rock
[3:57:18] Speaker 2: Hard for Doug, and thank you for whoever gifted him
[3:57:21] Speaker 2: a membership or her a membership. And Elpi or el
[3:57:26] Speaker 2: Pifanio says Christians disassociate from Old Testament almost like gnostics.
[3:57:31] Speaker 2: You're right because you have to do something. If you're
[3:57:34] Speaker 2: gonna read the text, you gotta fan a way around it.
[3:57:37] Speaker 2: You can't just read it at face value. And rock
[3:57:41] Speaker 2: Card for Doug is with us. Glad you made it
[3:57:44] Speaker 2: to your destination safely. Thank you for the supertest, says
[3:57:46] Speaker 2: you're a master chef. Also for the low investment of
[3:57:50] Speaker 2: a Kraken Elite membership. Y'all too can make your very
[3:57:53] Speaker 2: own cookbook, praise Doug and Charin. Yes, actually rock Hard
[3:57:57] Speaker 2: made his own cookbook using my cheat sheet. Definitely get
[3:58:00] Speaker 2: a hold of them. It's worth the time, it's worth doing.
[3:58:04] Speaker 2: Memberships are also the backbone of supporting this channel. For
[3:58:09] Speaker 2: anyone who's become a member, Thank you so much, you
[3:58:13] Speaker 2: make this channel possible. And fierce interaction says the Christian
[3:58:17] Speaker 2: God answered my prayer, and Justin did some cooking tonight. Yay,
[3:58:20] Speaker 2: God is real. See who all in church on Sunday.
[3:58:25] Speaker 2: I see what you did there. It's pretty good. Actually,
[3:58:29] Speaker 2: I'll see a Sunday morning go into early service or
[3:58:32] Speaker 2: contemporary service. I prefer the contemporary service. But then again,
[3:58:36] Speaker 2: if you get the earlier service, you get to see
[3:58:39] Speaker 2: the kickoff. So I'm torn. Johannah, thank you so much,
[3:58:43] Speaker 2: says there's no way Jesus can come back in this
[3:58:45] Speaker 2: day and age. He would be in a mental institution
[3:58:48] Speaker 2: faster than you can say, rapture. You're right, and we
[3:58:51] Speaker 2: do do that. We put them in mental institutions when
[3:58:55] Speaker 2: they come back and say that they're reincarnated. Jesus actually
[3:59:00] Speaker 2: know two of them that did that. Anyways, are thank
[3:59:04] Speaker 2: you for the supertests. Jesus on a cross shaped pretzel
[3:59:06] Speaker 2: would make a nice background. Oh my gosh, I cannot
[3:59:11] Speaker 2: believe I've not made a Jesus on a pretzel yet. Guys,
[3:59:15] Speaker 2: use the AI send me on discord. We need a
[3:59:19] Speaker 2: Jesus on a pretzel. Let's make it happen. And also, Alex,
[3:59:23] Speaker 2: welcome to the Crack and Crew lead. I appreciate that
[3:59:26] Speaker 2: and stoic ness. Thank you for the finding our supertests
[3:59:30] Speaker 2: any more books or websites on their historical figures who
[3:59:34] Speaker 2: claim to do great things. Give me a second. There
[3:59:40] Speaker 2: are there are. I'm sorry I don't have them on
[3:59:43] Speaker 2: the top of the head, but there are. Check out
[3:59:45] Speaker 2: Stephen Miller as well other than John Cook. Look at
[3:59:49] Speaker 2: Steven Miller. I've got some books by him. If you
[3:59:52] Speaker 2: want more, just DM me on Discord. I've got more resources,
[3:59:57] Speaker 2: DMA and we'll I'll hook you up with some resource.
[4:00:00] Speaker 2: Don't worry, we'll get you going aris. Thank you for
[4:00:03] Speaker 2: the supertest. Is Forrest mentioned in a creationist reaction video
[4:00:07] Speaker 2: that unicorn was in the Bible? Where is the located?
[4:00:10] Speaker 2: Where is it located? In strips? Youre missed that one. Okay,
[4:00:13] Speaker 2: it's there. Unicorn is there? Hold on, it's It's in
[4:00:19] Speaker 2: the King James version. In other versions it's a one
[4:00:23] Speaker 2: horned rhino. Oh my gosh.
[4:00:27] Speaker 1: Hiccups.
[4:00:31] Speaker 2: Iccups are killing me. Hacups. Let's see John thirty nine.
[4:00:49] Speaker 2: Of course, I can't stop hiccuping Job thirty nine nine
[4:01:08] Speaker 2: through ten. Will the un I can't say, will the
[4:01:12] Speaker 2: unicorn be willing to serve thee this? I can't stop
[4:01:24] Speaker 2: the hiccups. This is what's gonna happen. Okay, Job thirty
[4:01:30] Speaker 2: nine nine through ten. Will the unicorn be willing to
[4:01:32] Speaker 2: deserve thee or bide by thy crib? Can'st thou bind
[4:01:37] Speaker 2: the unicorn with his band in the furrow? Okay, unicorn
[4:01:46] Speaker 2: is not in the original text. The word unicorn is
[4:01:51] Speaker 2: latinized meaning single horn. That's it is referring to a
[4:01:58] Speaker 2: single horn rhinoceros, which will is what's the word native
[4:02:04] Speaker 2: to the territory, especially in northern Africa. So the general
[4:02:09] Speaker 2: idea is that it's referring to a single horn rhino
[4:02:12] Speaker 2: rather than a two horn rhino. I said, hiccups. I
[4:02:15] Speaker 2: can't get rid of it either way. That is the case.
[4:02:23] Speaker 2: Holy shit, it's gonna kick my ass. Okay, but that
[4:02:26] Speaker 2: hopefully they answer it. It's not referred to mystical creatures
[4:02:29] Speaker 2: referring to rhinos. That's it. Okay, Well, keep going, Aris,
[4:02:43] Speaker 2: I'm gonna try not to hack fucking egg. Can't stop
[4:02:47] Speaker 2: pickup being forrest mentioned. I just read this hold on Okay. Sorry.
[4:02:52] Speaker 2: Do we know when the Hebrew scriptures got translated into Greek. Yes,
[4:02:57] Speaker 2: roughly around the third century. The Torah in the third century,
[4:03:04] Speaker 2: the rest of it in the second and first century.
[4:03:09] Speaker 2: If the Letter of Aristius is correct. The letter of
[4:03:15] Speaker 2: Aristius claims that it was happening in Egypt during the
[4:03:20] Speaker 2: Empire of Alexander Ander. Fucking a, the hiccups are kicking
[4:03:26] Speaker 2: my ass. I hate I fucking hate hiccups. I hate them.
[4:03:32] Speaker 2: They will not go go away. Evan says made Doug
[4:03:36] Speaker 2: bless your sleep after doing this work. Well, Thank you, Evan.
[4:03:39] Speaker 2: I appreciate Doug is not carrying my hiccups right now
[4:03:43] Speaker 2: and has driven me crazy. Also, Benjamin, welcome to the
[4:03:47] Speaker 2: crack and cruelly. I really appreciate that. And I think.
[4:03:53] Speaker 9: Two more.
[4:03:55] Speaker 2: Super Chance. Pam says love to Justin and Michael. Thanks.
[4:04:01] Speaker 2: Michael's great. Actually, Michael talked to me a couple of
[4:04:04] Speaker 2: days ago. Awesome young man. I really wish the best
[4:04:07] Speaker 2: for him. I really hope that he does well. And uh,
[4:04:12] Speaker 2: I'm fucking cooked. I can't stop hiccuping. Tim, Thank you,
[4:04:17] Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the ten dollars super chat.
[4:04:19] Speaker 2: Tim says you're a class act. I appreciate that. Tim.
[4:04:23] Speaker 2: Right now I'm a hiccuping fool, but thank you so
[4:04:25] Speaker 2: much for subordian channel. I try to do the best
[4:04:28] Speaker 2: I can. I really appreciate your super chat though. Guys, guys,
[4:04:33] Speaker 2: who's live right?
[4:04:34] Speaker 5: Now?
[4:04:34] Speaker 2: That we can go that we can go raid I
[4:04:37] Speaker 2: got I'm gonna chug some water. Who's live?
[4:04:43] Speaker 17: Missoo okay, okay, let's see Okay, of course chugging didn't work.
[4:04:58] Speaker 2: Now I'm just gonna to peel all night. H of course,
[4:05:06] Speaker 2: ah fuck my life. Let me see what we got here?
[4:05:14] Speaker 19: Wait, the way we need to ask for unapologic, why
[4:05:19] Speaker 19: do you sometimes go the computer broke fas this will
[4:05:23] Speaker 19: not go well? Slim hum for unapologic? Is it every
[4:05:29] Speaker 19: other week or every week? Because he feels like you
[4:05:32] Speaker 19: skip up something and then mm hmm.
[4:05:34] Speaker 2: It's supposed to be every week. The problem is that
[4:05:37] Speaker 2: it's hard to always get there. I think last week
[4:05:44] Speaker 2: we're alive, but then the week before that, blitz was
[4:05:48] Speaker 2: wasn't available. He had something going on and Ian overslept,
[4:05:52] Speaker 2: so it just didn't happen. But it's supposed to be
[4:05:56] Speaker 2: every it's supposed to be everything fucking a is supposed
[4:06:00] Speaker 2: to be every Sunday morning. I fucking hate hiccups so bad.
[4:06:05] Speaker 2: All right, let me put mezso on the screen. Before
[4:06:08] Speaker 2: I hiccup myself into goddamn oblivion. Um, all right, Mezso,
[4:06:16] Speaker 2: here we go. We want Mezso Underscore WS. He's on TikTok.
[4:06:20] Speaker 2: He's not on YouTube, friends, I don't know why I
[4:06:24] Speaker 2: got to click on him five times to get his
[4:06:26] Speaker 2: live stream. All right, guys, let's go over to me
[4:06:30] Speaker 2: Mezzo's live stream. Mezzo Underscore WS, Mezso Underscore WS. God
[4:06:38] Speaker 2: damn it, I'm never gonna fucking stop pickupping Mezzo Underscore WS.
[4:06:44] Speaker 2: I'll be there in just a minute. Guys, uh to
[4:06:48] Speaker 2: chirp in the comments and the chastise the Christians. M
[4:06:52] Speaker 2: If you're available, come join us. Thank you for having
[4:06:56] Speaker 2: me up and it was great to see you tonight.
[4:07:00] Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming up and hanging out with me,
[4:07:02] Speaker 2: and guys, I'll see you over a fucking ape in
[4:07:06] Speaker 2: Mezzo's live stream. Thank you so much for being here.
[4:07:08] Speaker 2: Thank you to the thank you to the moderators who
[4:07:13] Speaker 2: are here. Guys, make sure you say hello and thank
[4:07:17] Speaker 2: you to the moderators. And thank you so much for
[4:07:21] Speaker 2: all the likes, all the likes, shares, supports and super chats.
[4:07:26] Speaker 2: We'll see you again Friday,

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