# 2025-10-09 LIVE DEBATE \[God is Imaginary\]

An episode of [Deconstruction Zone](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1837730286), 4 Jan 2026, 2 h 27 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/69201259/2025_10_09_18_02_37.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Hit the go button. We'll make sure it's live before
[0:02] Speaker 1: we get started. There's a little bit of latency between
[0:07] Speaker 1: the go button and when YouTube says we're actually live,
[0:10] Speaker 1: so I just want to give it a second. Okay,
[0:12] Speaker 1: we are live fantastic on YouTube. Now, before we go
[0:16] Speaker 1: any further, I'm gonna go live on TikTok because Dave
[0:19] Speaker 1: is going to join us on TikTok. Although you won't
[0:25] Speaker 1: be able to see you won't be able to see him,
[0:30] Speaker 1: you'll be able to hear them.
[0:31] Speaker 2: Okay, all right, cool.
[0:34] Speaker 1: I've got a kind of a unique setup here so
[0:38] Speaker 1: that we can cross talk with the TikTok guests and
[0:42] Speaker 1: the YouTube guests.
[0:44] Speaker 2: Very nice. I watch your lives on Sunday anyway, so
[0:48] Speaker 2: I know I see how you switch back and forth.
[0:53] Speaker 1: Thanks. I appreciate that. So that when Dave's available, we
[0:56] Speaker 1: can pull Dave in and he can participate in the conversation,
[1:00] Speaker 1: and because I think he's got some questions as well,
[1:02] Speaker 1: although he knows your story much better. But anyways, I
[1:05] Speaker 1: think everything is live now. We're live on TikTok. We
[1:08] Speaker 1: are live on YouTube on the main channel. If you're watching,
[1:13] Speaker 1: if you're in the discord, and you're like, hey, how
[1:15] Speaker 1: is it? Why is this not on the vertical or
[1:18] Speaker 1: the horizontal channel on DZ debates. It's because we're not
[1:20] Speaker 1: debating today, friends, We're on just the main channel. We're
[1:23] Speaker 1: gonna have two friends of the channel. Come on. Jenny
[1:26] Speaker 1: is already with us. Jenny is gonna share her background
[1:31] Speaker 1: and story in the i FB. She's not just she
[1:34] Speaker 1: wasn't just a member of the IFP. She's like a
[1:38] Speaker 1: bona fide insider. We'll share more, more, more for people
[1:43] Speaker 1: who don't know the IFP. We're talking about the Independent
[1:45] Speaker 1: Fundamental Baptist and if you know, you know, if you
[1:49] Speaker 1: don't know, you're better off. Y. In the second hour,
[1:56] Speaker 1: we're gonna bring on another guest named Kim, And if
[2:00] Speaker 1: you give me one second, I think our friend Dave
[2:03] Speaker 1: is going to join us via audio here in just
[2:06] Speaker 1: a moment.
[2:08] Speaker 3: Hey, Dave, can you hear me?
[2:10] Speaker 1: I can hear you?
[2:12] Speaker 4: All right?
[2:13] Speaker 1: Ye, all right, and hey, I'm I'm more than happy
[2:18] Speaker 1: to do it. Welcome in, Dave. Okay, So, Dave, we
[2:20] Speaker 1: have a little bit of background audio from your microphone.
[2:24] Speaker 1: So I think, so, I think, what it's not a problem.
[2:28] Speaker 1: I'm just thinking just so you know, when your microphone
[2:31] Speaker 1: turned down, we hear a little bit of background. So
[2:34] Speaker 1: when you're not talking, just leave it muted it. I
[2:36] Speaker 1: don't think there won't there won't be any feedback, but
[2:39] Speaker 1: you're by all means jump in or chime in at
[2:43] Speaker 1: any point. Jenny, you already Dave. Dave, you already know, Jenny.
[2:47] Speaker 1: We all know Dave. We all love Dave.
[2:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Hi Dave. Oh, I don't know where he went.
[2:58] Speaker 1: That's right, he'll be back, Okay, So go ahead.
[3:05] Speaker 4: With that.
[3:05] Speaker 1: Then let's get into the good bits. So Jenny, can
[3:10] Speaker 1: you first of all tell us about your channel, because
[3:12] Speaker 1: you've got a channel at least on TikTok. What else
[3:15] Speaker 1: are you involved in?
[3:17] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[3:17] Speaker 2: So my channel is on a Holier pod, on Instagram,
[3:23] Speaker 2: on Facebook, on YouTube, and on TikTok. I go live
[3:28] Speaker 2: with a friend of mine, David Keck, who also has
[3:32] Speaker 2: a podcast. We're partners in Crime. He is my producer
[3:35] Speaker 2: and editor and amazing bestie as I call him, and
[3:40] Speaker 2: we go live every Tuesday night at nine pm Eastern
[3:43] Speaker 2: eight pm Central on TikTok. I haven't graduated to the
[3:48] Speaker 2: YouTube space yet, but we're working at it, and we
[3:52] Speaker 2: do that we actually get on there on Tuesdays. We
[3:55] Speaker 2: have a lot of fun. We talk to a lot
[3:57] Speaker 2: of the different survivors that we have on my podcasts,
[4:00] Speaker 2: survivors of cults, survivors of religious trauma, and survivors of
[4:06] Speaker 2: the troubled teen industry. So that's sort of, in a nutshell,
[4:11] Speaker 2: what my podcast is all about. And uh, the name,
[4:15] Speaker 2: I just want to mention this. I'm sure most of
[4:17] Speaker 2: you have heard the term holier than Now, So we
[4:19] Speaker 2: came up with the name because really, when you find
[4:22] Speaker 2: out somebody who thinks they're holier than now or has
[4:25] Speaker 2: put themselves up on that pedestal to be looked at
[4:28] Speaker 2: as a holier than now person is actually unholier than
[4:32] Speaker 2: now because when you pull back that proverbial curtain, you
[4:35] Speaker 2: can see that there's a lot of things that are
[4:38] Speaker 2: not holy about that verson. So that's sort of you know,
[4:42] Speaker 2: the in the culination of cults in church and all
[4:46] Speaker 2: of that. It's sort of in a nutshell there with
[4:49] Speaker 2: unholier name.
[4:50] Speaker 3: So I love it.
[4:52] Speaker 1: That's a good name.
[4:54] Speaker 4: So thank you, Jenny.
[4:56] Speaker 1: I know a little bit of your story, but there's
[4:58] Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people hear your story
[5:00] Speaker 1: can you kind of fill us in on your your
[5:04] Speaker 1: background and well, I mean, go ahead, take it away.
[5:08] Speaker 1: I'm excited for everyone to get to know you.
[5:11] Speaker 2: Okay. So, as Justin said, my name is Jenny and
[5:17] Speaker 2: I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist cult. And
[5:21] Speaker 2: I call it a cult because it is a cult.
[5:24] Speaker 2: I like to just call things how they are. They
[5:27] Speaker 2: do disguise themselves as a denomination, but really when you
[5:31] Speaker 2: get into it, the level of control is very cult like.
[5:37] Speaker 2: And so my dad was a pastor. My whole life,
[5:42] Speaker 2: I was a pastor's daughter. And but it goes beyond that.
[5:46] Speaker 2: So even before I was born, my great grandfather whose
[5:51] Speaker 2: name is doctor. Now I say doctor because of course
[5:55] Speaker 2: in the if B they like to hand out doctors
[5:57] Speaker 2: to people who actually aret equipped with the actual PhD.
[6:03] Speaker 2: So there's a lot of doctors and the IP who
[6:07] Speaker 2: shouldn't be. So his his name is doctor, was doctor
[6:12] Speaker 2: g b Vic. Doctor g b Vic was essentially the
[6:17] Speaker 2: protege a for UH J. Frank Norris. And so if
[6:23] Speaker 2: you know anything about J. Frank Norris, he was one
[6:25] Speaker 2: of the founders of the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. UH.
[6:31] Speaker 2: If you do any digging on J. Frank Norris, It's
[6:33] Speaker 2: not gonna take you long to find out that he
[6:36] Speaker 2: was cloaked in scandal. He had a church in Fort Worth,
[6:41] Speaker 2: Texas that was a very large church, and then he
[6:44] Speaker 2: started another church in Detroit, Michigan called Temple Baptist Church.
[6:49] Speaker 2: And then my great grandfather sort of was mentored by
[6:53] Speaker 2: him and took over took over that church in Detroit, Michigan,
[6:57] Speaker 2: and that church became one of the first megat churches
[7:01] Speaker 2: in the United States in the forties and fifties. Unfortunately,
[7:07] Speaker 2: it was just it reaked of racism because I found
[7:13] Speaker 2: out as an adult, and you can also find this
[7:15] Speaker 2: on you or not YouTube, but Google, that they wouldn't
[7:21] Speaker 2: allow baptisms for black people, so you could be how
[7:26] Speaker 2: long did this go on for tell? I believe the
[7:30] Speaker 2: seventies or eighties.
[7:33] Speaker 3: Yeah, it separated. It was around the seventies they got it.
[7:38] Speaker 3: They went away from racism and ended up focusing on
[7:42] Speaker 3: abortion because racism wasn't catching as many flies as they
[7:46] Speaker 3: wanted to.
[7:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, so you have this church that is literally in Detroit, Michigan,
[7:53] Speaker 2: and then they go through the riots in the late
[7:56] Speaker 2: sixties and all of that and they ended up having
[7:58] Speaker 2: to move locations and go to an area just outside
[8:02] Speaker 2: of Detroit, moved the church built a new building in
[8:05] Speaker 2: all of that. But unfortunately, you know, I am sad
[8:10] Speaker 2: to say that my great grandfather was a racist. I mean,
[8:13] Speaker 2: there's no way around that. That is a well documented fact.
[8:20] Speaker 2: You know, while he might have been a nice guy
[8:24] Speaker 2: to a lot of people, he was a racist, and
[8:28] Speaker 2: I don't believe in what he stood for in that
[8:33] Speaker 2: aspect at all. One fun fact that probably a lot
[8:37] Speaker 2: of people don't know, if they know anything about the IFB,
[8:41] Speaker 2: they probably don't know the fact that my great grandfather,
[8:44] Speaker 2: while he was one of the ogs of the first
[8:48] Speaker 2: megachurch in the United States, he was never an ordained minister.
[8:57] Speaker 2: That blew my mind. When my dad told me that,
[8:59] Speaker 2: I was like, wait, what, I don't know. I just
[9:04] Speaker 2: thought that was crazy. And not only was he not
[9:08] Speaker 2: an ordained minister or a legit doctor, but he started
[9:14] Speaker 2: his own Bible college in Springfield, Missouri. Now why he
[9:20] Speaker 2: started his own Bible college in Springfield, Missouri when he
[9:24] Speaker 2: was in Detroit, Michigan, that is a mystery to me.
[9:27] Speaker 2: I'm not sure if there was like some like holy
[9:29] Speaker 2: property or something that he found out there that he
[9:32] Speaker 2: was like, I have to start a Bible college right
[9:34] Speaker 2: here in Springfield, Missouri. But hence Baptist Bible College was born.
[9:40] Speaker 2: And then him and J. Frank Norris and a couple
[9:44] Speaker 2: of other big pastors at the time. I believe Jack
[9:47] Speaker 2: Hyles was involved in this as well. They broke off
[9:51] Speaker 2: from the Southern Baptist Convention and started the Baptist Bible Fellowship. So,
[9:59] Speaker 2: you know, the whole the term independent Baptist is not
[10:03] Speaker 2: really accurate because they are not independent. They claim to
[10:08] Speaker 2: be completely, you know, secluded from any kind of organization.
[10:15] Speaker 2: And you know, like the Southern Baptist Convention. If you're
[10:20] Speaker 2: a Southern Baptist church, you're part of that convention and
[10:22] Speaker 2: you pay dues to that convention, and there's a board
[10:26] Speaker 2: that kind of tells your church what to do, what
[10:28] Speaker 2: not to do, that type of thing. There's some regulation there,
[10:30] Speaker 2: which can be both good and bad at the same time.
[10:34] Speaker 2: But the ifb as we call it, they claim to
[10:39] Speaker 2: not have any affiliation with any kind of board or organization.
[10:44] Speaker 2: Yet most of them were in the Baptist Bible Fellowship.
[10:49] Speaker 2: So call it what you will, I mean, it's definitely
[10:55] Speaker 2: a syndicate. So back to my story, that was the
[11:00] Speaker 2: along in the short of the history in my family.
[11:02] Speaker 1: Now you grew up in it, so like from cradle
[11:05] Speaker 1: to okay.
[11:07] Speaker 2: Yes, from cradle to well not really currently because I
[11:11] Speaker 2: heard now, but yeah, from cradle to divorce. I'll say that,
[11:18] Speaker 2: we'll get to that part. But yeah, so so grew
[11:22] Speaker 2: up in the ifb And and just for people who
[11:25] Speaker 2: don't understand relate, what is the IV why are you
[11:28] Speaker 2: calling it a call? It is such a controlled environment
[11:32] Speaker 2: to I would say mostly women there. It's a very
[11:38] Speaker 2: you know, patriarchal religion, denomination cult. They all the way
[11:45] Speaker 2: to the point where they will tell women how they're
[11:49] Speaker 2: supposed to dress. It's interesting because justin I caught one
[11:53] Speaker 2: of your lives I believe it was today or maybe yesterday,
[11:56] Speaker 2: where you were talking with somebody and you were saying like, well,
[12:00] Speaker 2: we're talking about clothing, right, and it's like, well, men's
[12:03] Speaker 2: a pair. They would always say women shouldn't be adorned
[12:06] Speaker 2: and men's apparel, that's a verse in the Bible. And
[12:08] Speaker 2: they would always say like, women shouldn't wear pants because
[12:12] Speaker 2: it's men's apparel. It's like, well, this was written thousands
[12:15] Speaker 2: of years ago. So they weren't wearing pants, they weren't
[12:18] Speaker 2: wearing starts. You know what, exactly what are we talking about?
[12:22] Speaker 2: Because they were all on like two necks. So it's like,
[12:25] Speaker 2: you can't the Bible.
[12:30] Speaker 3: Read the verses around that verse. It's crazy because that
[12:33] Speaker 3: verse was thrown in the middle of a bunch of craziness.
[12:36] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so they like to carry pick certain things
[12:40] Speaker 2: to fit their narrative. As you both knows, as you've debated,
[12:47] Speaker 2: many of these types of people and their interpretations are
[12:51] Speaker 2: just whacked out. But so, one of the things was
[12:54] Speaker 2: women can't wear pants, We couldn't wear shorts, we couldn't mix.
[12:57] Speaker 2: Bathing was another thing. We couldn't go swimming with the
[13:00] Speaker 2: opposite sex.
[13:02] Speaker 1: Even if you were like fully covered, like had to toe,
[13:05] Speaker 1: it still couldn't.
[13:07] Speaker 2: You could not. Yeah, so we would. Yeah, it was
[13:13] Speaker 2: not fun. It's very hard to swim being fully close.
[13:19] Speaker 2: But the guys could swim and swimming trunks with their
[13:22] Speaker 2: shirts up, but not with the girls. So they had
[13:25] Speaker 2: normal They didn't really have a whole lot of restrictions
[13:28] Speaker 2: on them. And then another aspect of it was we
[13:32] Speaker 2: were the purity culture was just drilled into our brains
[13:39] Speaker 2: like if As girls in the church and as women
[13:42] Speaker 2: in the church, we were taught that if any guy
[13:46] Speaker 2: was to stumble or fall, it was our fault. And
[13:53] Speaker 2: I mean I could show you all pictures of how
[13:56] Speaker 2: I had to dress back in the day and you
[13:58] Speaker 2: would be like you practically amish. I mean, nobody's lusting
[14:01] Speaker 2: after that. There's nothing to show, so, you know, but
[14:05] Speaker 2: it was our fault if they decided they were, you know,
[14:10] Speaker 2: gonna be attracted to us. So another aspect of the
[14:16] Speaker 2: IFB is, you know, the parents. If you aren't listening
[14:20] Speaker 2: to your parents, especially your father, there's sort of this
[14:25] Speaker 2: God is gonna punish you or something bad is gonna
[14:27] Speaker 2: happen to you. You're always worried like am I doing
[14:31] Speaker 2: the right thing? Am I gonna get punished? You know?
[14:35] Speaker 2: They keep they always go to the story of Job,
[14:37] Speaker 2: which by the way, is a really effed up story
[14:40] Speaker 2: because it's like God and the devil were kind of
[14:44] Speaker 2: they had sort of this bet going on, like, oh, well,
[14:48] Speaker 2: I bet you I could get your servant job to
[14:51] Speaker 2: you know, deny you and whatever, and then God's like, oh, yeah, yeah,
[14:54] Speaker 2: go ahead, do what you want.
[14:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, go mess them up, that's fine, Well I'll give
[14:59] Speaker 1: you new kids later.
[15:01] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like, let me kill your whole family,
[15:04] Speaker 2: let me take all your possessions, your house, your everything.
[15:07] Speaker 2: But they would they love this part. But God's ways
[15:12] Speaker 2: are higher than our ways. So he repaid Joe tenfold.
[15:16] Speaker 2: He had a whole new family, he had more riches
[15:19] Speaker 2: than he ever had before. And so this is what
[15:22] Speaker 2: we were taught. This was ingrained in us. Like you
[15:25] Speaker 2: basically have to live like a pauper. You have to
[15:28] Speaker 2: live like poverty level because your treasures aren't here. Your
[15:33] Speaker 2: treasures are in heaven. So you have to work for
[15:36] Speaker 2: the church for practically free. You have to be subservient
[15:40] Speaker 2: to your dad, your husband, the pastor, do whatever they
[15:44] Speaker 2: tell you, and then God will reward you once you die.
[15:48] Speaker 1: Right, right, So did you have to answer to the
[15:53] Speaker 1: pastor as well? Like if the pastor's like a dad
[15:55] Speaker 1: number two and he's also in control.
[15:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but the pastor was my dad's So I
[16:04] Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I'm already answering to him. So I
[16:06] Speaker 2: guess it works out. I only am one guy I
[16:08] Speaker 2: have to listen to. So, so I grew up in
[16:14] Speaker 2: that atmosphere and it was very controlling and it was
[16:17] Speaker 2: very difficult. And then I went off to Bible College
[16:22] Speaker 2: and I started dating somebody in Bible College and he
[16:27] Speaker 2: was a Bible major. And for anyone that knows, I
[16:31] Speaker 2: also went to a racist Bible college, Bob Jon's University,
[16:36] Speaker 2: so you think, because that was my dad's alma matter.
[16:41] Speaker 2: So I had to go there. And so yeah, we
[16:45] Speaker 2: just had to keep it, keep it going in the family,
[16:47] Speaker 2: Like my uncles went there, my grandfather, my great grandfather
[16:51] Speaker 2: was best friends with Bob Jones Senior, and so you know,
[16:55] Speaker 2: I just had to keep it, keep it in the
[16:57] Speaker 2: keep it in that line there, keep it going.
[16:59] Speaker 1: But did they force you into like a wifely education,
[17:03] Speaker 1: like could you do a real education or do you
[17:05] Speaker 1: have to take up like home mech or sewing?
[17:10] Speaker 2: So yes, right, I know what you're talking about, the
[17:13] Speaker 2: mrs degree. Right, So, because I was raised in that
[17:19] Speaker 2: kind of environment, I don't think that my parents would
[17:25] Speaker 2: have been against me if I wanted to get like
[17:29] Speaker 2: a like a business degree, or if I wanted to
[17:32] Speaker 2: be a nurse or something like that. I don't think
[17:34] Speaker 2: they would have been like, no, you can't do that.
[17:36] Speaker 2: But because my mind was already brainwashed into thinking like
[17:41] Speaker 2: my only if I'm going to have a purpose in life,
[17:44] Speaker 2: I have to be in full time ministry because that's
[17:47] Speaker 2: what my family is, that's what my history of my
[17:50] Speaker 2: family is. Like, We're entrenched in the IFB and so
[17:54] Speaker 2: I need to carry on this tradition, right. So in
[17:57] Speaker 2: my mind, I thought, I have to be like a
[18:00] Speaker 2: pastor's wife, or an evangelist wife, or a missionary's wife,
[18:04] Speaker 2: or a youth pastor's wife. And so I went to
[18:07] Speaker 2: Bob Jones for youth counseling. So, but my minor was
[18:12] Speaker 2: homech so I had to learn, you know, I saw there,
[18:17] Speaker 2: learned the basics cooking, sewing, decorating, entertaining, that sort of thing.
[18:21] Speaker 2: So I was there really to get my Mrs. Degree
[18:25] Speaker 2: because that's the goal, right to get married, have children,
[18:29] Speaker 2: and be in full time ministry with your husband. So
[18:33] Speaker 2: it really worked out that I was dating somebody who
[18:35] Speaker 2: was a Bible major. He wanted to be in full
[18:37] Speaker 2: time ministry, and so we dated for about three years.
[18:42] Speaker 2: We were in love, we were going to get married,
[18:44] Speaker 2: and between our junior and senior year, we went a
[18:47] Speaker 2: little family trip with his parents and him and me
[18:51] Speaker 2: and my parents, and the last day, we were sitting
[18:55] Speaker 2: at this ice cream shop and there was a little
[18:57] Speaker 2: round table we were all sitting at in this little
[18:59] Speaker 2: ice cream shop. In my yah goes, well, we're at
[19:02] Speaker 2: a round table, we might as well have a roundtable discussion.
[19:04] Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, what the heck is going on? And
[19:07] Speaker 2: he goes he started drilling my boyfriend about whether or
[19:14] Speaker 2: not he was King James only. Now King James only.
[19:20] Speaker 2: I knew you would think that's really funny, I'd right, of.
[19:25] Speaker 1: Course, it's got to be kine.
[19:30] Speaker 2: Also, I was never taught until recently. I didn't know
[19:34] Speaker 2: that King James was gay, which that is not taught
[19:39] Speaker 2: in the IFB. But they think the King James Bible
[19:42] Speaker 2: is literally going to be in heaven. Yeah, it's the
[19:48] Speaker 2: King James version, like not the Originals, because the Originals
[19:52] Speaker 2: are under the King James. Well, the King James Bible
[19:55] Speaker 2: superior to the Originals.
[19:57] Speaker 1: So this is what original Greek and Hebrew with the
[20:01] Speaker 1: King James.
[20:05] Speaker 2: So yeah, go ahead, day you didn't say whatever you want.
[20:09] Speaker 3: No, I was about to say that, because that's what
[20:10] Speaker 3: they want. Preacher says it. I'll throw out the Greek
[20:13] Speaker 3: manuscripts in the Hebrew because the King, King James has
[20:16] Speaker 3: it correct.
[20:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, so they say it's superior. We're throwing out the originals,
[20:22] Speaker 2: which is where it was translated from, and we're just
[20:27] Speaker 2: going to focus on the King James because that is
[20:30] Speaker 2: And they would say things like this is the only
[20:33] Speaker 2: Bible that is authorized by the King. It's like, yeah, well,
[20:38] Speaker 2: you also preach against homosexuality, and did you know that
[20:42] Speaker 2: he was a homosexual. No, they'd ever talk about that,
[20:46] Speaker 2: And honestly, I think ninety nine percent of them don't
[20:48] Speaker 2: even know that because they just listen to these pastors
[20:52] Speaker 2: that for generations have taught the King James Bible is
[20:56] Speaker 2: the authorized version and that is the superior to the
[21:00] Speaker 2: original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. So we're back at this
[21:05] Speaker 2: ice cream shop. My dad starts arguing with my boyfriend
[21:10] Speaker 2: Slash Beyonce because we had everything but the ring. Okay,
[21:13] Speaker 2: we were gonna get married after our senior year. We
[21:16] Speaker 2: were in between our junior and senior year. I had
[21:19] Speaker 2: the dress, we had the dates, it just hadn't like,
[21:23] Speaker 2: the proposal hadn't come yet. I didn't have the ring.
[21:26] Speaker 2: I didn't have the proposal. So we were very close
[21:28] Speaker 2: so my dad started this argument, and then him and
[21:32] Speaker 2: his dad started debating because as a we were twenty
[21:37] Speaker 2: one at the time and he wasn't a minor. I
[21:40] Speaker 2: wasn't a minor anymore. But you are taught in the
[21:42] Speaker 2: IFB you never question authority, you never speak over authority.
[21:47] Speaker 2: You have very high respect for authority. So he just
[21:50] Speaker 2: sat there while our two dads argued about the King
[21:55] Speaker 2: James version, and then we left abruptly. We got in
[21:59] Speaker 2: the car and we were four hours from home, and
[22:02] Speaker 2: as soon as we got in the car, my dad says,
[22:05] Speaker 2: you are not going to marry that boy. And I
[22:08] Speaker 2: knew at that point it was like it was over.
[22:11] Speaker 2: Like I had there was no There was no And
[22:13] Speaker 2: so again you have this mentality you're taught if you
[22:17] Speaker 2: go against your parents, God is gonna do something to you.
[22:21] Speaker 2: He's going to punish you in some way. So we
[22:22] Speaker 2: were always scared to do anything. So it's not like
[22:26] Speaker 2: I could go run off in alope with this guy.
[22:28] Speaker 2: There was that was even a part of the question
[22:31] Speaker 2: at all. It was like, unequivocally, I can't be with
[22:35] Speaker 2: this guy. He is no longer God's will for my life,
[22:37] Speaker 2: and I have to break up with him, so we
[22:40] Speaker 2: broke up. I didn't end up going back and finishing
[22:44] Speaker 2: my senior year at Bob Jones. I ended up going
[22:47] Speaker 2: all the way across the country, like literally two sides
[22:51] Speaker 2: of the country, Like Bob Jones University is in South
[22:53] Speaker 2: Carolina and West Coast Baptist College is in California. So
[22:59] Speaker 2: they couldn't get me far enough away from this guy,
[23:02] Speaker 2: so go to West Coast. I finished up my senior year.
[23:07] Speaker 2: Probably my degree is fake. I don't know. I mean,
[23:10] Speaker 2: I've never tested to put it to the test. I've
[23:12] Speaker 2: gotten jobs, but like people are like, well, what's Bob
[23:15] Speaker 2: Jen's University and what is West Coast vote, I always
[23:17] Speaker 2: have to explain it, right, just don't.
[23:20] Speaker 1: Look too deep into it, don't worry. I took classes friends.
[23:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, they were not accredited at the time, so probably
[23:27] Speaker 2: not legit. So I finished up there, and then I
[23:31] Speaker 2: came back home to Detroit, Michigan because again my dad
[23:35] Speaker 2: was a pastor, and you know, I had this like
[23:39] Speaker 2: youth counseling degree, so he was like, well, why don't
[23:42] Speaker 2: you go ahead and work at the church and the
[23:44] Speaker 2: youth department. We don't have, you know, youth there or
[23:47] Speaker 2: anything like that, and or a youth pastor. And so
[23:52] Speaker 2: he had an evangelist friend whose son had also graduated
[23:56] Speaker 2: recently from college, and he said, Hey, you know my
[24:00] Speaker 2: son just recently graduated. You know, he's looking to be
[24:03] Speaker 2: a youth pastor. Do you have any openings at your church?
[24:05] Speaker 2: And my dad was like, oh, actually, we do, come
[24:09] Speaker 2: work at our church. So they had sort of conspired
[24:13] Speaker 2: to like match the two of us up. Which I
[24:17] Speaker 2: knew him from years years ago, and I never liked him.
[24:20] Speaker 2: He is very annoying, very narcissistic personality. So I was
[24:25] Speaker 2: not interested in this at all. But if you're from
[24:28] Speaker 2: a call to you understand that when you are told
[24:32] Speaker 2: this is God's will or you have to do this,
[24:35] Speaker 2: you have to do it like you don't you you
[24:38] Speaker 2: don't have any other options. Right. So here I am
[24:42] Speaker 2: fresh off this breakup, and then he brings this. Can
[24:46] Speaker 2: I say, doude bag.
[24:47] Speaker 1: In anything you want, don't worry. We're on YouTube and TikTok.
[24:52] Speaker 2: I don't want to get like censored or bandering.
[24:54] Speaker 1: If TikTok goes down, you tube keeps going. We're fine, Okay, cool?
[24:59] Speaker 2: He where is this dB in? And he's like, you know,
[25:02] Speaker 2: this is God's will for your life. And I'm like, yeah,
[25:06] Speaker 2: but I'm not. I wasn't attracted to him. I didn't
[25:10] Speaker 2: even like his personality. Like, but it's like, Nope, this
[25:13] Speaker 2: is God's will for your life.
[25:15] Speaker 1: How terrifying is that moment? Like did you do you
[25:19] Speaker 1: think that it was gonna stick? Or do you think
[25:21] Speaker 1: maybe I can get my way out of it?
[25:24] Speaker 2: As far as like beforehand.
[25:27] Speaker 1: When when they told you this is God's will for
[25:29] Speaker 1: your life.
[25:32] Speaker 2: It it's I looked at it as a sentence like
[25:35] Speaker 2: this is your life. This is this is your life
[25:38] Speaker 2: and you just need to lean into it because there's
[25:42] Speaker 2: no other options. And so that that's how it is
[25:46] Speaker 2: in the call. I mean, you you do what you're
[25:49] Speaker 2: told and you don't question it. You're not allowed to
[25:52] Speaker 2: question it. Right. So the really aft up thing is
[25:56] Speaker 2: is I got married a year later in the dress
[26:00] Speaker 2: I was supposed to marry the other guy in on
[26:03] Speaker 2: this same day that we had planned to get married.
[26:08] Speaker 2: That's rough and yeah, and so one of my best
[26:11] Speaker 2: friends from college, literally right before I was walking down
[26:15] Speaker 2: the aisle, she I was in the restroom and I
[26:17] Speaker 2: was sort of like panicking, and she grasped me by
[26:20] Speaker 2: the shoulders and she's like, you don't have to do this.
[26:23] Speaker 2: I have a car waiting outside, like we can get
[26:25] Speaker 2: out of here. And I'm like, what am I supposed
[26:27] Speaker 2: to do? There's like four or five hundred people in
[26:29] Speaker 2: the auditorium, Like I'm terrified, right, And I'm like, yeah,
[26:33] Speaker 2: we'll take off and then God will kill us in
[26:36] Speaker 2: a car accident. Like that's the mentality that you have,
[26:39] Speaker 2: because that's what you're taught. And I'm like, I have
[26:42] Speaker 2: to do this. And so one thing I want to
[26:45] Speaker 2: mention is I have heard my dad do thousands of
[26:50] Speaker 2: weddings because he was a pastor, Right, I sat through
[26:53] Speaker 2: thousands of weddings that he's performed, and I knew the
[26:58] Speaker 2: vows by heart. When I got up there to do
[27:02] Speaker 2: the vows, everything was the same except he changed one part.
[27:07] Speaker 2: The part that he changed made me say, I choose
[27:11] Speaker 2: you to be my husband.
[27:15] Speaker 1: He wanted to alleviate himself of culpability.
[27:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. And the more the older I get and the
[27:24] Speaker 2: more I deconstructed, the more aft up that is to me.
[27:28] Speaker 2: I'm like, I could never I could never do that
[27:32] Speaker 2: to my children. Yeah, And my dad was not I
[27:39] Speaker 2: would consider my dad more on the light side of
[27:43] Speaker 2: the IFB. He he didn't. He didn't enforce a lot
[27:49] Speaker 2: of stuff, but there were certain things that he was
[27:52] Speaker 2: very dogmatic on, like the KJV, and so that was
[27:56] Speaker 2: that was his number one thing in the IFB was
[28:01] Speaker 2: that KJV was the Bible, and if you don't believe it,
[28:06] Speaker 2: you are not in my realm, and you are not
[28:09] Speaker 2: going to be a part of my family, and you
[28:11] Speaker 2: are not going to be part of this church. And
[28:13] Speaker 2: that was number one. And he died with that mentality.
[28:21] Speaker 2: So I ended up marrying this guy, and on the honeymoon,
[28:26] Speaker 2: he started physically abusing me and mentally abusing me immediately.
[28:34] Speaker 2: I was on the honeymoon and I remember calling my
[28:36] Speaker 2: mom from the bathroom crying, and her response was, well,
[28:43] Speaker 2: this is God's will now, so you need to make
[28:46] Speaker 2: it work. And I lived in an abusive marriage for
[28:53] Speaker 2: five and a half years. And the day that I
[28:57] Speaker 2: was planning on leaving, I actually he allowed me to
[29:00] Speaker 2: have a secular job for a short period of time,
[29:03] Speaker 2: and I was actually talking to my boss and another
[29:07] Speaker 2: and an office manager who was a friend of mine
[29:10] Speaker 2: actually from my church, and she had left the church
[29:12] Speaker 2: and kind of deconstructed before I had even known what
[29:14] Speaker 2: deconstruction was. And I was telling her the situation and
[29:17] Speaker 2: my boss and they were like, you need to leave him,
[29:19] Speaker 2: you know this and that. And I was telling them
[29:22] Speaker 2: that I had missed my cycle that month, and she
[29:26] Speaker 2: ran across the street to the CBS and got me
[29:28] Speaker 2: a pregnancy test. Now, I hadn't gotten pregnant my whole
[29:31] Speaker 2: the whole five and a half years. So I'm like,
[29:33] Speaker 2: there's no way I'm pregnant. I'm not even see you
[29:36] Speaker 2: take a test, right. She's like, no, you're gonna take
[29:39] Speaker 2: a test. So I took a test and I was pregnant.
[29:43] Speaker 2: So then, of course my IFB brain goes back to
[29:47] Speaker 2: this is God telling you you can't leave him. You're pregnant.
[29:50] Speaker 2: You got to stick it out, you got to stay,
[29:52] Speaker 2: You gotta deal with the abuse, And so I did
[29:58] Speaker 2: because now I have Now I have a daughter coming, right,
[30:03] Speaker 2: So the abuse actually got worse. And then when when
[30:08] Speaker 2: I had her, I just kept praying to God, like
[30:12] Speaker 2: I can't live in this situation for the rest of
[30:14] Speaker 2: my life, and I don't want my daughter to also
[30:17] Speaker 2: live in this situation and think that this is an
[30:21] Speaker 2: okay environment, and for it to be okay for her
[30:24] Speaker 2: dad to abuse me, and then she'll carry on that
[30:28] Speaker 2: pattern because you'll think that's normal, right, that she would
[30:32] Speaker 2: have a spouse some day or a partner some day
[30:34] Speaker 2: that would be she would allow that kind of abuse
[30:36] Speaker 2: to happen as well. And I didn't want that for her.
[30:39] Speaker 2: So I remember reading a person in the Bible, and
[30:42] Speaker 2: I'm just going to paraphrase it, but it's essentially like,
[30:45] Speaker 2: you know, we as like fathers want to give their
[30:48] Speaker 2: children good gifts and even so much more. Your your
[30:51] Speaker 2: heavenly father wants to give you more like good, better
[30:54] Speaker 2: gifts or whatever. And and I thought to myself, now
[30:57] Speaker 2: that I'm a parent, I kind of get that, Like,
[31:00] Speaker 2: if my daughter was in this situation, I would not
[31:03] Speaker 2: expect her to stay because of some religious ideology that
[31:07] Speaker 2: I have. I would want her to get out, and
[31:10] Speaker 2: I would want her to live her life happy. So
[31:14] Speaker 2: I started saying, like, God, I don't want to ruin
[31:18] Speaker 2: my dad's ministry because at the time we were, he
[31:20] Speaker 2: was he was the he became the full time youth
[31:23] Speaker 2: pastor of my best church. So I was a youth
[31:25] Speaker 2: pastor's wife. I'm trying to ministry to these teens, and
[31:28] Speaker 2: yet I'm in this terrible abusive situation. I have to
[31:33] Speaker 2: put on a fake facade every time you go to
[31:36] Speaker 2: church and act like everything is great. And so I'm
[31:39] Speaker 2: just like living a lie, which I hate. If you
[31:42] Speaker 2: know me at all, like I am, I'm who I am, Like,
[31:46] Speaker 2: I don't put on a facade. It's like you get
[31:48] Speaker 2: what you get, you know. So for me, living that
[31:51] Speaker 2: fake life was hard enough, but then you add on
[31:55] Speaker 2: the domestic abuse. So you add on the fact that
[31:58] Speaker 2: I have this child. Now you out on the fact
[32:01] Speaker 2: that my dad's a pastor and I have to maintain
[32:03] Speaker 2: this certain image for his ministry. And so I started praying,
[32:08] Speaker 2: like God, you got to give me a way out
[32:10] Speaker 2: of this, like I can't do this for the rest
[32:11] Speaker 2: of my life. And I kept saying, like, you have
[32:15] Speaker 2: to give me a very very obvious way out so
[32:20] Speaker 2: that it's not like I am exposing him, but that
[32:24] Speaker 2: he's exposing himself in some way, so that I can
[32:28] Speaker 2: get out without it being like a scandal in the church.
[32:32] Speaker 1: That veryad did you inform your parents of what was
[32:36] Speaker 1: happening at home? I mean, your mom knew because you
[32:38] Speaker 1: called her on the phone. Did your dad know? And
[32:40] Speaker 1: your dad was basically the whole time, just suck it up.
[32:44] Speaker 2: Yeah. So what he did is he got his marital
[32:47] Speaker 2: counseling with a Christian counselor.
[32:51] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[32:52] Speaker 2: But the interesting thing is that actually worked in my
[32:54] Speaker 2: favor because he was concerned about how it would look
[32:58] Speaker 2: to the church members and he didn't want it to
[33:00] Speaker 2: cause the church split, right, which was what I was
[33:04] Speaker 2: afraid of too. I didn't want it to cause any
[33:05] Speaker 2: kind of scandal in the church. I didn't want it
[33:07] Speaker 2: to ruin his ministry or anything like that. So he
[33:11] Speaker 2: had this Christian counselor that he knew, and the guy
[33:16] Speaker 2: was fairly legit. I will give him that. He would
[33:21] Speaker 2: come once a year and do like marital counseling, and
[33:23] Speaker 2: he would talk about, you know, psychology and stuff. And
[33:26] Speaker 2: usually the IFP is very closed off to stuff like that.
[33:29] Speaker 2: They don't believe in therapy, they don't believe in any
[33:32] Speaker 2: of that kind of thing. They think that if you
[33:34] Speaker 2: have anxiety, depression, any kind of you know, mental issues,
[33:39] Speaker 2: you are spiritually like that's your problem, Like you need
[33:43] Speaker 2: to get into the Bible more, you need to pray more.
[33:45] Speaker 2: That's what they tell you. So I will say my
[33:48] Speaker 2: dad was at least open to therapy, even though he
[33:51] Speaker 2: never went.
[33:54] Speaker 1: I don't need therapy. You need therapy, Yeah, you need therapy.
[33:58] Speaker 2: You guys go. So he gets us this Christian counselor,
[34:02] Speaker 2: and the Christian counselor puts this through this test, which is,
[34:07] Speaker 2: I guess, a very sophisticated kind of test that they
[34:10] Speaker 2: even do on military people. It's called the MMPI and
[34:16] Speaker 2: it's like a five hundred question test, and essentially he
[34:21] Speaker 2: would tell us like, if you're lying, I will know
[34:25] Speaker 2: right away once I see the test. So I took
[34:28] Speaker 2: the test and he was like, Okay, she's honest, like
[34:32] Speaker 2: she's given the truth. My eggs had to take the
[34:35] Speaker 2: test three times, and he said after three times of
[34:39] Speaker 2: taking the test, the counselor was like, either this guy
[34:45] Speaker 2: is Jesus Christ himself, or like he obviously doesn't think
[34:50] Speaker 2: he has any issues, like he's a liar, he's a narcissist.
[34:53] Speaker 2: Like and I'm like, hello, thank you for pointing this out,
[34:57] Speaker 2: because that's what I've been trying to tell everyone. But
[34:59] Speaker 2: it just it all. And so the counselor said, legitimately
[35:03] Speaker 2: there's nothing I can do for them because he doesn't
[35:06] Speaker 2: think he has an issue and he's blaming everything on
[35:09] Speaker 2: her and I can't work with that. There's no helpe
[35:13] Speaker 2: when you can't have two people that are willing to
[35:15] Speaker 2: work together. And so that was a good thing. So
[35:20] Speaker 2: then fast forward three months later, we took the We
[35:24] Speaker 2: took about eight youth group kids to a youth conference
[35:28] Speaker 2: at West Coast Baptist College in California, and they sort
[35:33] Speaker 2: of promote the school and they had like activities and
[35:35] Speaker 2: they have special speakers in to basically y'all at the
[35:38] Speaker 2: students all week and tell them how horrible they are.
[35:42] Speaker 2: And so we flew out to California from Detroit and
[35:45] Speaker 2: we were there the very first night. The kids had
[35:50] Speaker 2: pulled me out of my hotel room and into the
[35:52] Speaker 2: stairwell and they said, you need to divorce him. Now
[35:57] Speaker 2: here's these yeah, here's these teenagers we're supposed to be
[36:01] Speaker 2: ministering too, Like we're the youth pastor and youth pastor's
[36:04] Speaker 2: wife and they're seeing the abuse firsthand, and they were like,
[36:08] Speaker 2: you need to divorce him. You cannot live in this
[36:11] Speaker 2: day in and day out. And I'm like, okay, I
[36:15] Speaker 2: can't even deal with this right now. This is so
[36:17] Speaker 2: much like good of that I don't know. And so
[36:21] Speaker 2: we get we fly back on Saturday. The next day
[36:24] Speaker 2: is church on Sunday. Sunday morning, my dad's phone is
[36:29] Speaker 2: blowing up with all these parents of these teens in
[36:32] Speaker 2: the youth group saying, we are no longer going to
[36:35] Speaker 2: send our kid to the youth group unless you fire him.
[36:38] Speaker 2: We want a meeting after church. You know, all this stuff.
[36:41] Speaker 2: So literally, I didn't have to do or say anything.
[36:44] Speaker 2: He exposed himself and the teens, of all the people
[36:48] Speaker 2: that could, the kids were the ones that brought it
[36:50] Speaker 2: to the forefront and exposed him. And of course we
[36:53] Speaker 2: had this big meeting after church. He denied everything. It
[36:57] Speaker 2: was like, well, we were all there, we were all witnessed,
[37:00] Speaker 2: you know. He just gaslighted us. And my dad ended
[37:02] Speaker 2: up firing him. So in the meantime, I'm still living with.
[37:07] Speaker 1: This guy, right, he's got to be upset.
[37:12] Speaker 2: The abuse got worse. So a lady in our church,
[37:15] Speaker 2: she was like, Hey, I probably shouldn't tell you this,
[37:20] Speaker 2: but I kind of see that maybe you're having some
[37:24] Speaker 2: issues like with abuse and stuff like that. I don't know,
[37:27] Speaker 2: all the details. I don't need to, but here's a
[37:30] Speaker 2: nonprofit organization. I'm going to recommend you go see their
[37:33] Speaker 2: counselors and get some help. So I was like, Okay,
[37:37] Speaker 2: I'm gonna go because I need to figure this out.
[37:40] Speaker 2: And I stepped in there and talked to a counselor.
[37:44] Speaker 2: Within five minutes, she was like, Okay, we need to
[37:47] Speaker 2: set up a safe house, Like you got to go
[37:49] Speaker 2: to the safe house. You and your daughter need to
[37:50] Speaker 2: go to a safe house. Because at this point he
[37:53] Speaker 2: was threatening me with firearms. Every night. He had a
[37:58] Speaker 2: one of these cocked in low on his nightstand and
[38:01] Speaker 2: he would just kind of pick it up every night,
[38:02] Speaker 2: show it to me and say if you try to leave,
[38:06] Speaker 2: you know, and so so it was a really it
[38:10] Speaker 2: was a really scary situation. So she was like, at
[38:14] Speaker 2: the very least, you need an exit plan. I didn't
[38:16] Speaker 2: even know what that was at the time, so she
[38:18] Speaker 2: kind of went through the steps of what to do
[38:20] Speaker 2: and to have like a go bag and be ready
[38:23] Speaker 2: to get out of there, and and what ended up
[38:25] Speaker 2: happening was I ended up leaving in the middle of
[38:27] Speaker 2: the night with my daughter because there was a blow
[38:30] Speaker 2: up episode where he thought he was casting demons out
[38:33] Speaker 2: of the house one night, This is like at two
[38:36] Speaker 2: in the morning, and I'm like, I'm gone, I'm out.
[38:39] Speaker 2: And so we ended up getting divorced. And I shockingly
[38:47] Speaker 2: and really stupid of me because I thought that, like
[38:50] Speaker 2: the people that were there witnessing the abuse would put
[38:55] Speaker 2: their arms around me, support me, encourage me. But I
[38:58] Speaker 2: was shunned. You know, divorce, it doesn't matter. Divorce is
[39:03] Speaker 2: not something you do in in this cult, and so
[39:07] Speaker 2: you have to live with abuse. They tell you, like,
[39:11] Speaker 2: divorce is not something that you're allowed to do. Now,
[39:14] Speaker 2: if he cheated on me, then I would be okay
[39:16] Speaker 2: to divorce, but I wouldn't be allowed to get remarried.
[39:21] Speaker 1: So what did they blame you for the divorce?
[39:24] Speaker 2: No, they didn't blame me. But they also thought that
[39:28] Speaker 2: it wasn't God's will for me to divorce him, that
[39:31] Speaker 2: we should have like just kept getting counseling, working it out,
[39:34] Speaker 2: getting therapy, you know that type of thing. You know.
[39:38] Speaker 2: So I ended up divorcing him. His entire family just
[39:44] Speaker 2: cut me off completely, you know, even though I'm the
[39:47] Speaker 2: mother of their grandchildren or their grandchild and their their niece.
[39:52] Speaker 2: Like I never heard from them, never been any you know,
[39:56] Speaker 2: contact between them. And I want to say too, his dad,
[40:03] Speaker 2: he is an evangelist within the IFB, and he always
[40:06] Speaker 2: thought that I was. He always called me Jezebel because
[40:13] Speaker 2: I was not like this person that you could totally
[40:17] Speaker 2: put in a box. And I always questioned. I was like, well,
[40:21] Speaker 2: why do we have to do this or why are
[40:23] Speaker 2: you asking us to do that? And you don't do
[40:26] Speaker 2: that as a woman in the i f B. So
[40:28] Speaker 2: he would literally write my Birthday and Christmas cards to Jezebel,
[40:33] Speaker 2: you know, and he would refers.
[40:34] Speaker 1: To me, yeah, this his son sounds like that's where
[40:39] Speaker 1: he got it from.
[40:42] Speaker 2: Yes, oh absolutely, yeah. Yeah. His his dad was not
[40:46] Speaker 2: very kind to his mom either. So so when I
[40:50] Speaker 2: got out, I was shunned and I got out of
[40:56] Speaker 2: Christianity altogether. I was like, screw this, Like I have
[40:59] Speaker 2: dedicated my entire life to this. I did everything that
[41:03] Speaker 2: I was supposed to do. I obeyed my parents. I
[41:06] Speaker 2: did everything that my you know, Sunday school teachers, my
[41:09] Speaker 2: youth directors, my teachers, everything told me to do. And
[41:13] Speaker 2: look at what where it ended me up? Like I
[41:17] Speaker 2: lost my college sweetheart over it. I ended up with
[41:20] Speaker 2: this abusive piece of shit guy. Like the one good
[41:24] Speaker 2: thing that came out of it was my daughter. But
[41:26] Speaker 2: now I have to go through the next eighteen years
[41:29] Speaker 2: sharing custody with this guy, which that turned into an
[41:34] Speaker 2: absolute hall on earth too, because some people say, like, Okay,
[41:37] Speaker 2: after the divorce, like he'll find somebody eventually and he'll
[41:40] Speaker 2: leave you alone and you'll move on and it'll be fine,
[41:43] Speaker 2: and you know you'll co parent just fine. Oh my gosh,
[41:47] Speaker 2: he was just ramping up. So that was a nightmare.
[41:52] Speaker 2: I called that my eighteen year prison sentence. Now luckily
[41:56] Speaker 2: we're done with that. She, my daughter, is wonderful and
[42:00] Speaker 2: beautiful human being. She's twenty years old. I'm so proud
[42:03] Speaker 2: of her. She's amazing. She The good news about this
[42:08] Speaker 2: is is she is now seeing how her dad is,
[42:14] Speaker 2: so she is now able to process on her own
[42:18] Speaker 2: what kind of person he actually is. And I'm really grateful.
[42:21] Speaker 2: Our relationship is very, very solid and strong at this point,
[42:25] Speaker 2: and I just love and adore her so much. And
[42:27] Speaker 2: so about six or seven years after my divorce, I
[42:36] Speaker 2: met my current husband. And the exciting thing about that
[42:40] Speaker 2: is is he wasn't religious at all. He didn't grow
[42:43] Speaker 2: up in any religion, so he wasn't atheist, but he
[42:47] Speaker 2: was I would say agnostic, like he didn't know, like
[42:50] Speaker 2: he was like, I don't know, you know, I just
[42:52] Speaker 2: you know, he didn't have an aunt or a grandma
[42:54] Speaker 2: or anybody that went to church on both sides. So
[42:57] Speaker 2: it was really perfect and he got to experience my
[43:03] Speaker 2: ex on many different levels and really protected me in
[43:07] Speaker 2: my daughter and helped us through all of that all
[43:09] Speaker 2: these years. And so there was a point I would say, gosh,
[43:16] Speaker 2: probably four years into our marriage where I don't even
[43:21] Speaker 2: remember what we were going through. We were going through
[43:23] Speaker 2: something and I just felt like this draw that I
[43:27] Speaker 2: needed to get back into church. And again it's that brainwashing,
[43:31] Speaker 2: that ideology, like bad things are happening to you, things
[43:35] Speaker 2: are not working out, it's probably because you're not in church, right,
[43:39] Speaker 2: So God is punishing you, you know, because the Bible
[43:43] Speaker 2: says like, you know, he's gonna chasing you if you're
[43:47] Speaker 2: one of his children. And so things were not working out,
[43:50] Speaker 2: and I'm like, we should probably just get into church,
[43:53] Speaker 2: and he's like, well, okay, well I'll just follow your
[43:55] Speaker 2: lead on this is I don't know anything about it.
[43:58] Speaker 2: So we started going to this church and we were
[44:01] Speaker 2: there for about gosh, five years maybe, and then again
[44:05] Speaker 2: it was the same song and dance.
[44:06] Speaker 4: It was like.
[44:09] Speaker 2: We had okay, we had an assistant the assistant pastor
[44:13] Speaker 2: there started sending like we got an inappropriate picture from
[44:17] Speaker 2: the assistant pastor, and there were things that were like
[44:20] Speaker 2: really shady and like at a group text, like hey,
[44:23] Speaker 2: the group. So he sends this picture and the caption says,
[44:26] Speaker 2: is our friendship ready for this?
[44:30] Speaker 1: No? No, it's not.
[44:31] Speaker 2: It's crazy, And I'm like, what the heck? Like, it
[44:37] Speaker 2: doesn't matter where we go. Everyone is messed up. Like
[44:41] Speaker 2: I had, we have to get away from this. So
[44:44] Speaker 2: and that was just one incident, right, And so you
[44:47] Speaker 2: have this this guy who's an assistant pastor where everyone
[44:50] Speaker 2: thinks is so holy and so godly, and he's up
[44:53] Speaker 2: on the stage every Sunday raising his hands, praising God
[44:57] Speaker 2: and closing his eyes and swaying back and forth and
[44:59] Speaker 2: everyone's like, oh my God, you know, and it's like
[45:02] Speaker 2: I can't, I can't do it. I can't do it anymore.
[45:05] Speaker 2: And so it's been i would say about three and
[45:08] Speaker 2: a half years we've been out of church, and so
[45:12] Speaker 2: my deconstruction obviously happened after my divorce, but like really
[45:17] Speaker 2: started fast forwarding after we left that second church, and
[45:21] Speaker 2: I'm like, what the heck, Like I We'll never go
[45:24] Speaker 2: back to church, Like this is what we're done at
[45:27] Speaker 2: this point. And then I tell my husband, I told
[45:30] Speaker 2: Dave this today. You're my new pastor Justin because I
[45:33] Speaker 2: listened to you every Sunday. And I'm like, Justin knows
[45:37] Speaker 2: more about the Bible than any preacher or you know
[45:42] Speaker 2: teacher that I've ever had a Bible college, anybody that
[45:44] Speaker 2: I know that's ever taught Bible. You know more, and
[45:47] Speaker 2: you're an athist.
[45:48] Speaker 3: So I'm like, whatever it worked out, assumed me that today, yesterday,
[45:55] Speaker 3: and a few days ago when we talked, she said
[45:57] Speaker 3: the same thing.
[45:57] Speaker 1: So I appreciate the kind of words. So, when when
[46:03] Speaker 1: the divorce and everything happened, was there ever a moment
[46:07] Speaker 1: where your father or any other church leadership took responsibility
[46:11] Speaker 1: for literally forcing you into an abusive marriage.
[46:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was a moment where my dad kind
[46:20] Speaker 2: of started to take accountability a little bit. But then
[46:24] Speaker 2: when I met my husband, we were dating and he
[46:30] Speaker 2: had invited me out to lunch one day and so
[46:33] Speaker 2: I'm like, oh cool, you know, the day off, I'm
[46:35] Speaker 2: going to go have lunch with my dad. And so
[46:38] Speaker 2: I'm sitting there and all of a sudden, my dad
[46:42] Speaker 2: starts questioning me about the guy that I'm dating. And
[46:45] Speaker 2: then this other preacher comes in and this, and I
[46:49] Speaker 2: didn't know this till late, like later on, and now
[46:52] Speaker 2: that I'm in the podcast tonight and I interview people
[46:54] Speaker 2: from the trouble teen industry. But he actually owns one
[46:58] Speaker 2: of those homes. And I only met this guy twice
[47:02] Speaker 2: and he came in and yeah.
[47:04] Speaker 1: Not to interrupt, but your camera rotated for some reason.
[47:07] Speaker 1: I don't know if the table moved, but you're now sideways.
[47:10] Speaker 2: Oh wait, let me see. Oh nope, that didn't work.
[47:18] Speaker 2: That's my bet am.
[47:20] Speaker 1: I paused, we can hear you, but we can. It
[47:24] Speaker 1: looks like we're looking at your other camera.
[47:25] Speaker 4: Now.
[47:27] Speaker 3: It's a good thing she's not a Christian, because if
[47:28] Speaker 3: you flip a camera and a Christian, you don't know
[47:30] Speaker 3: what's going to be behind him.
[47:32] Speaker 1: You do not want to know what's gonna happen if
[47:34] Speaker 1: you flip that.
[47:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, now I can't even now, I can't even flip it.
[47:38] Speaker 2: Oh no, I can't flip them now. It's like zooming
[47:43] Speaker 2: in on.
[47:44] Speaker 1: My OWNI ohld, that's like a okay it uh, let
[47:50] Speaker 1: me see if I could there we go, we're back. Okay,
[47:54] Speaker 1: we're back.
[47:55] Speaker 2: See y'all that. If I was still on the IP,
[47:58] Speaker 2: I'd be like there, God was me for talking about this.
[48:02] Speaker 1: It's the devil?
[48:03] Speaker 2: Is it?
[48:04] Speaker 1: That Jezebel spirit again at work?
[48:06] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[48:09] Speaker 3: It's not even funny because we've had so many of them.
[48:13] Speaker 2: I'm being punished right now because of that. So so anyway, yeah,
[48:17] Speaker 2: you guys, I don't have a fancy studio. I just
[48:19] Speaker 2: record here in my little house and that's that's what
[48:23] Speaker 2: I got. I don't have any fancy you know, lights
[48:25] Speaker 2: or studio or anything like that. Maybe one day, but
[48:28] Speaker 2: this is just me. So anyway, we're at this restaurant.
[48:34] Speaker 2: Yeah Alabama, yep, No, I'm in Florida. But but anyway,
[48:39] Speaker 2: we're at this restaurant and this guy walks in. I
[48:41] Speaker 2: literally met this pastor like twice, and he starts grilling
[48:46] Speaker 2: me about the guy that I'm dating. And he's like,
[48:49] Speaker 2: you know what the Bible says, You're not supposed to
[48:51] Speaker 2: be unequally yoke with unbelievers. This is a sin. You
[48:55] Speaker 2: can't do this. And I looked at him and I
[48:57] Speaker 2: was like, I don't even know you. I've met you
[48:59] Speaker 2: liked twice. And also I did everything to the book.
[49:05] Speaker 2: I listened to him, and I ended up in an
[49:09] Speaker 2: abusive marriage. So I'm going to do it my way now,
[49:13] Speaker 2: and then if I mess up, it's my mistake. It's
[49:15] Speaker 2: not in anyone but me. And I ended up leaving
[49:18] Speaker 2: the restaurant at that point, and my dad and I
[49:21] Speaker 2: had our relationship was severed for a little while at
[49:24] Speaker 2: that point, but he kind of he kind of came
[49:27] Speaker 2: around and everything, but to answer your question, he sort
[49:31] Speaker 2: of started to take responsibility. And then when things started
[49:34] Speaker 2: working out where he saw that my current husband was
[49:39] Speaker 2: very loving and supportive and protective and all the things
[49:43] Speaker 2: that my first husband should have been as a Christian,
[49:47] Speaker 2: and then this guy wasn't a Christian and he was
[49:49] Speaker 2: doing all the things he was. He kind of was like, well,
[49:53] Speaker 2: look at how the Lord worked it out.
[49:56] Speaker 1: The Lord worked that out. Huh, Yeah, how about the
[49:59] Speaker 1: Lord should done the thing in the first place.
[50:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, So he kind of took a little bit of
[50:04] Speaker 2: the heat off of himself because he was like, Okay,
[50:06] Speaker 2: this guy ended up to work out like it ended
[50:09] Speaker 2: up good.
[50:11] Speaker 1: Well at least he's like he was vaguely approving of
[50:16] Speaker 1: the of the new guy, even though he was an atheist.
[50:18] Speaker 2: So yeah, not at first, but in the.
[50:21] Speaker 1: End he was yeah, okay, okay, so he came around
[50:24] Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, yeah, he could see through your
[50:28] Speaker 1: Jezebel spirit and say that, Lord, I know, right, gratious thing.
[50:35] Speaker 1: Were there ever any repercussions for your ex husband for
[50:41] Speaker 1: the for the abuse that he put you through. No, never,
[50:46] Speaker 1: The church didn't care.
[50:47] Speaker 2: Counsel no, No, his his parents don't. They've never acknowledged
[50:52] Speaker 2: any of that. In fact, I recently was contacted by
[50:57] Speaker 2: some people because he has a history of if BE
[51:00] Speaker 2: and his family too. So his grandfather was the pastor
[51:04] Speaker 2: in the IP for like fifty something years. His dad's
[51:07] Speaker 2: an evangelists, His uncles are you know, tea pastors and missionaries,
[51:12] Speaker 2: and his aunt was a missionary, and so it's a
[51:15] Speaker 2: very long history of his family as well in IP
[51:18] Speaker 2: and so I recently, because of my podcast, I had
[51:23] Speaker 2: a few survivors reach out from his grandfather's church saying
[51:26] Speaker 2: that they were a victim of abuse. Under his dad's
[51:30] Speaker 2: leadership and his grandfather's leadership. So this they have a
[51:34] Speaker 2: history of abuse in their family, and so they're not
[51:37] Speaker 2: going to say anything to him about it because this
[51:41] Speaker 2: is just who they are. And you know it's okay
[51:45] Speaker 2: because they're abusing women and girls, and you know, you
[51:48] Speaker 2: just you have to be you have to be submissive
[51:51] Speaker 2: to whatever you know, right, So.
[51:54] Speaker 3: I would love one church. I have never since we've
[51:57] Speaker 3: been doing this, I have never heard of one church
[52:00] Speaker 3: actually admit to or apologize for any abuse that has
[52:03] Speaker 3: gone on within one church.
[52:04] Speaker 1: Never experience as well.
[52:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just want to say too, because Kim
[52:09] Speaker 2: Kelly is coming on after me. She's been on my podcast.
[52:14] Speaker 2: If you guys get a chance, you can you can
[52:16] Speaker 2: watch her episode on YouTube, but also listen to it
[52:18] Speaker 2: on any podcast platform.
[52:20] Speaker 4: That you have.
[52:20] Speaker 2: But we had a really great discussion. She's amazing. But
[52:26] Speaker 2: the fact is is that in the IFB and a
[52:30] Speaker 2: lot of these other churches, like it doesn't matter, not
[52:33] Speaker 2: just IV, but I'm just talking from my own experience
[52:36] Speaker 2: in the if B, when there's abuse within the church,
[52:40] Speaker 2: when there's somebody that's been essayed, or or there's like
[52:43] Speaker 2: domestic finals or whatever. It is very common for it
[52:49] Speaker 2: to be dealt with internally, so they will not contact
[52:53] Speaker 2: law enforcement because they don't want to quote unquote scandal
[52:56] Speaker 2: in the church. They don't want to be in the headlines.
[52:57] Speaker 2: They don't want the community finding out. It's it's often
[53:01] Speaker 2: dealt with internally with the pastor and the deacons and
[53:03] Speaker 2: the individual involved.
[53:05] Speaker 3: So these are not mandatory. It's mandatory for them to
[53:09] Speaker 3: do that. It's mandatory, it's not they but.
[53:13] Speaker 2: They don't care. They don't They're going to do their own.
[53:17] Speaker 2: It is mandatory for them to report it, but they
[53:19] Speaker 2: don't do it.
[53:20] Speaker 3: Nine times that I'm saying, within the within the social
[53:23] Speaker 3: structure of the church, it's mandatory for them to defend
[53:26] Speaker 3: the church at all oh, at all possible, do not
[53:31] Speaker 3: report it. They want to sweep that ship everywhere. But
[53:34] Speaker 3: to them correct, Yeah.
[53:37] Speaker 2: So so what that means in terms of what Kim
[53:42] Speaker 2: Kelly is trying to do, it makes things very very
[53:45] Speaker 2: complicated because when you have a system in place that
[53:50] Speaker 2: protects the abuser and not be abused, and oftentimes they
[53:56] Speaker 2: will either if this person has a full time position
[53:59] Speaker 2: in church, and then they are the abuses brought to
[54:03] Speaker 2: the forefront. They'll often move that person to another church. Yes,
[54:08] Speaker 2: and then they'll use it as well, God's called this
[54:12] Speaker 2: person to another location, right. So the problem with that
[54:17] Speaker 2: is is not only does the abuse perpetuate, but then
[54:22] Speaker 2: you don't even have any police report, you have no
[54:25] Speaker 2: charges brought, you have so if there is a background
[54:29] Speaker 2: check run on any of those people, they're not going
[54:31] Speaker 2: to show anything. So these churches that say well we
[54:34] Speaker 2: run background checks, we protect our children, we protect our women. Yeah,
[54:39] Speaker 2: well that's great, but that's not going to cover the
[54:42] Speaker 2: people who have just been shoveled around because the church
[54:46] Speaker 2: wanted to deal with it internally and brush it under
[54:48] Speaker 2: the rug. So there's no mechanism in place to really
[54:52] Speaker 2: protect people in churches from abusers because they will hide
[54:55] Speaker 2: in plain sight. And you'll you'll learn more about that
[54:58] Speaker 2: when when she comes on. But I just I wanted
[55:00] Speaker 2: to mention that because my ax is still working in
[55:03] Speaker 2: a church. He's still filling the pulpit for the pastor
[55:06] Speaker 2: when the pastor goes on vacation. He has worked at
[55:09] Speaker 2: various churches in their youth department even after all this
[55:13] Speaker 2: came out and happened, so they kind of look at
[55:16] Speaker 2: him as the good one because he's still in the IFB.
[55:21] Speaker 2: He's still in church. I am not. And so they're like, oh,
[55:25] Speaker 2: she's not in church, she's the Jezebel, she's the.
[55:27] Speaker 1: Problem, right. Yeah, because you can do all the ABUS
[55:30] Speaker 1: you want as long as you maintain your IFB status,
[55:33] Speaker 1: you're doing God's work somehow. That's how it twisted the
[55:36] Speaker 1: system is. Yeah, Janny, we did have one question from
[55:42] Speaker 1: one of our viewers that I think you might be
[55:45] Speaker 1: able to help with, if you don't mind. From Daniel says, Hey, Jenny,
[55:49] Speaker 1: I'm a former IFB and I'm in the process of
[55:51] Speaker 1: gathering information to publicly expose certain IFB pastors. Do you
[55:56] Speaker 1: know of any good sources or people to talk to
[55:58] Speaker 1: about it? Thanks for doing this interview. It is needed.
[56:02] Speaker 2: Oh that's awesome. Thank you so much Daniel for the question. Yes,
[56:07] Speaker 2: so former if brother, I'm right there with you.
[56:13] Speaker 4: Van.
[56:15] Speaker 2: Yes, Actually I do have sources, So if you would,
[56:19] Speaker 2: if you could follow the Unholier podcast page and then
[56:22] Speaker 2: just send me a message so we can connect and
[56:25] Speaker 2: then I can connect you with the right people. So yeah,
[56:29] Speaker 2: thank you for that.
[56:30] Speaker 3: Now, a lot of what we do a lot of
[56:32] Speaker 3: what we do isn't on TikTok with different sources and
[56:36] Speaker 3: things that we do we don't.
[56:37] Speaker 1: Yeah, right now, Jenny, you you have a TikTok page
[56:42] Speaker 1: that's already linked in the description of the video, but
[56:45] Speaker 1: you said you also have a YouTube page as well
[56:48] Speaker 1: that you're putting the podcast on, and both of them
[56:51] Speaker 1: are under the Unholier pod right, Yeah, yep, perfect. I'll
[56:56] Speaker 1: make sure that when this live video closes out, make
[56:59] Speaker 1: sure the YouTube channel to the description so people have
[57:02] Speaker 1: access to it. But before we before we move on,
[57:06] Speaker 1: we also have some really kind words from it from
[57:09] Speaker 1: the audience. They're they're really enjoying the getting to hear
[57:13] Speaker 1: your story. Game Masters says, so important to hear the
[57:16] Speaker 1: narratives of women in these cults. Thanks for enlightening us.
[57:20] Speaker 1: And the reality is friends, like a lot of times
[57:23] Speaker 1: no one hears these stories like they get shared maybe
[57:26] Speaker 1: among some of the survivors, but the wider population doesn't
[57:31] Speaker 1: actually get to hear them. It's critical that people hear
[57:34] Speaker 1: what is actually happening on the insides of these conservative
[57:38] Speaker 1: cult religions, and Shadow says so important to hear your story.
[57:43] Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing it, And Michael says all the best.
[57:48] Speaker 1: I was trapped in a fundamental Lester Rollos Baptist home.
[57:52] Speaker 1: You know about Lester Rolov and a Lester Roofs Baptist home.
[57:56] Speaker 1: None of these are regulated, and they'd move between the
[57:59] Speaker 1: state in the middle of the night to avoid prosecution
[58:03] Speaker 1: and investigation.
[58:04] Speaker 3: Yep, we have them mapped out. We have the mapped out.
[58:09] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[58:10] Speaker 2: I've had several survivors from Lester roll Off homes on
[58:14] Speaker 2: my podcast, So reach out to me as well. Maybe
[58:18] Speaker 2: we can talk and get you on if you're willing.
[58:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, we do have to do a follow up
[58:24] Speaker 1: sometime and talk about the Lester Rolloff situation. There's quite
[58:27] Speaker 1: a few people now that we've been able to connect
[58:29] Speaker 1: through Dave and others, So I'd love to get a
[58:32] Speaker 1: group discussion sometime about the Lester roll Off houses because
[58:35] Speaker 1: it's if you don't know it, it's just shocking how
[58:40] Speaker 1: much abuse went on.
[58:42] Speaker 3: But oh, go ahead, Dave, you don't have enough open
[58:49] Speaker 3: panels for that. We can bring in hundreds of people.
[58:52] Speaker 1: I'm telling you, Oh, it's baffling that that went on
[58:59] Speaker 1: for as long as it did, to the extent that
[59:01] Speaker 1: it did. But Jenny, thank you so much for sitting
[59:04] Speaker 1: down and getting your story out with me, and I'm
[59:07] Speaker 1: sure we're going to have some follow up discussions as
[59:09] Speaker 1: well on other topics. I really appreciate you joining me,
[59:12] Speaker 1: and for everyone who if you missed it, if you
[59:15] Speaker 1: need a special reminder, you can find on YouTube and
[59:19] Speaker 1: on TikTok at Unholier Podcast, and then I'll have a
[59:23] Speaker 1: link in the description of the video. Jenny, thank you
[59:26] Speaker 1: so much. I really appreciated you spend some time with me.
[59:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Justin and Dave. I appreciate you guys
[59:33] Speaker 2: inviting me and giving me this opportunity to share my
[59:36] Speaker 2: story and to get the word out about the Unholier Podcast.
[59:40] Speaker 2: My mission, in my goal is to give survivors a
[59:45] Speaker 2: voice and give them a platform to share their story,
[59:48] Speaker 2: because for so long my voice was silenced and I
[59:51] Speaker 2: was not able to warn others about the cult and
[59:57] Speaker 2: the different things that the IFD as a woman, and
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: so it's been such an amazing opportunity to have this
[1:00:04] Speaker 2: platform tonight, and of course the podcast has been a
[1:00:08] Speaker 2: real great opportunity for me to elevate those voices as well.
[1:00:12] Speaker 2: So if anyone's listening, who is a survivor of a cult,
[1:00:16] Speaker 2: religious trauma or the Trouble Team industry. Please reach out
[1:00:19] Speaker 2: and I'd love to talk to you and maybe have
[1:00:21] Speaker 2: you on the podcast. So thank you so much.
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: Thanks Jenny. We'll talk to you again soon.
[1:00:27] Speaker 3: Okay, love you, Jenny. We'll talk to you later.
[1:00:32] Speaker 1: Jenny's fantastic. We have second guests lined up and Dave,
[1:00:38] Speaker 1: you know our second guest as well. Let me grab beasts. Yeah,
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: let me grab the video feed. Give me one minute.
[1:00:52] Speaker 1: There we go, and I think Kim looks like she's
[1:00:58] Speaker 1: ready to rock and roll. Give me one second to
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: change the guest name in here. That way, we got
[1:01:06] Speaker 1: the right name for the recording.
[1:01:09] Speaker 3: A year ago, we couldn't figure out filters. Now you're
[1:01:11] Speaker 3: doing this.
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: I know, right. We come a long way, buddy, welcome it. Okay,
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: we have a friend of the channel, Kim Kelly, with us.
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: Let's make sure all the audio is working. Oh sorry,
[1:01:31] Speaker 1: I apologized up with my bad We should be able
[1:01:34] Speaker 1: to hear you. I am going to turn your volume
[1:01:38] Speaker 1: up a little bit though.
[1:01:40] Speaker 4: Sure thing.
[1:01:42] Speaker 1: Okay, now I think I can hear you clearly. Can
[1:01:46] Speaker 1: you hear me clearly?
[1:01:47] Speaker 4: Yeah? Am I coming through clearly?
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: Yes? And can you hear Dave.
[1:01:54] Speaker 3: Yeah, can you hear me?
[1:01:55] Speaker 4: Kim, Oh yeah, I can hear you now, so Dave,
[1:01:58] Speaker 4: I appreciate you guys have me here.
[1:02:00] Speaker 1: M great to have you before uh.
[1:02:03] Speaker 3: Out there, she's I think your microphone justin. I think
[1:02:06] Speaker 3: your microphone actually is like interfering because like as soon
[1:02:10] Speaker 3: as you get done talking, their microphone kind of turns
[1:02:12] Speaker 3: down then it comes back up.
[1:02:13] Speaker 1: So okay, one.
[1:02:16] Speaker 4: Second, is that better?
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: It's a little it's a little quiet, little quiet and echo.
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: We hold on, hold on.
[1:02:38] Speaker 4: My dog, y'all. If you see some some scurellias behind me.
[1:02:44] Speaker 1: All right, let's see if that's better after my mic
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: down a little bit as well. That way you got
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: not getting too much of me. Okay. I think everything
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: seems to be working. There's no echoes anywhere that you
[1:02:58] Speaker 1: can hear anywhere that you can hear right Neverminah, can
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: you have.
[1:03:07] Speaker 2: Do you hear an echo?
[1:03:08] Speaker 3: I don't hear an echo.
[1:03:12] Speaker 1: Hold on, hold everybody's echoing right now.
[1:03:15] Speaker 3: That's new. It's everyone's you.
[1:03:19] Speaker 4: I don't hear any echo. I'll need right now. Let
[1:03:22] Speaker 4: me know your stop, ye Cam.
[1:03:25] Speaker 3: I told you it's just a year ago. We couldn't
[1:03:28] Speaker 3: even figure out how to use filters on TikTok. So
[1:03:31] Speaker 3: here we are I mean, well justin, I mean, yeah,
[1:03:37] Speaker 3: we get crazy, we get crazy.
[1:03:39] Speaker 1: Hold on, I made it, Dave real quick, I think,
[1:03:41] Speaker 1: real quick. I think it's I think, uh, I think.
[1:03:46] Speaker 1: I think Dave was part of the problem.
[1:03:49] Speaker 4: The problem.
[1:03:50] Speaker 1: Dave's always the problem. Child. Yeah, all right, I think
[1:03:56] Speaker 1: I think we should be good. I can hear you. Okay,
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: I'm not echoing through your microphone. You're not echoing through
[1:04:01] Speaker 1: my microphone.
[1:04:03] Speaker 4: Oh, let's do it.
[1:04:05] Speaker 1: Ready to rock and roll? All right, So, Kim, thank
[1:04:08] Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. I got to
[1:04:12] Speaker 1: hear a little bit about you, and I told Dave
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: to not tell me everything so that I can hear
[1:04:19] Speaker 1: some of your story Fresh Lives. So Dave was so
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: excited to introduce us. He wanted to tell me everything
[1:04:25] Speaker 1: about you. I was like, yeah, to save something for
[1:04:27] Speaker 1: the live.
[1:04:28] Speaker 4: Stream organic reaction. Yeah, I can summarize because there's like,
[1:04:34] Speaker 4: you know, lots to this crazy story. I have this
[1:04:38] Speaker 4: real dark humor, authentic smile about these really dark things.
[1:04:42] Speaker 4: So that's my disclaimer. It's not an apology, but like
[1:04:44] Speaker 4: it's my chosen form of feeling. Anyway, I laugh at
[1:04:47] Speaker 4: dark things when I'm yeah. So I was born and
[1:04:50] Speaker 4: raised in a religious cult. It's one of the most
[1:04:52] Speaker 4: notorious cults in the world. That's that's the short version.
[1:04:56] Speaker 4: It was a Christian cult, or at least everybody called
[1:05:00] Speaker 4: themselves Christians, all right, here's the point, though, there were
[1:05:02] Speaker 4: tens of thousands of children born and raised in this cult.
[1:05:05] Speaker 4: So this cult originated in the late sixties. For anyone
[1:05:08] Speaker 4: who studied cults, it started as the Children of God.
[1:05:11] Speaker 4: I think it started with something other. Anyway, cults always
[1:05:14] Speaker 4: rebrand with negative publicity, so they changed their name a lot.
[1:05:17] Speaker 4: But that's a different subject we'll get back to. Anyway,
[1:05:19] Speaker 4: Children of God is the most notorious name for it.
[1:05:22] Speaker 4: That being said, it's the most notorious not only in
[1:05:25] Speaker 4: terms of size and harm and impact, but also because
[1:05:29] Speaker 4: of the bad things. We're going to keep our language soft,
[1:05:33] Speaker 4: but the bad things to children that they're infamous for. Now,
[1:05:36] Speaker 4: to give more context here, my mother was one of
[1:05:40] Speaker 4: the top leaders. That is not a flex That means
[1:05:42] Speaker 4: she is one of them, you know, worked her way
[1:05:45] Speaker 4: up the ranks. Right, you have to be very evil
[1:05:47] Speaker 4: and psychotic to be able to qualify for those positions.
[1:05:50] Speaker 4: So you can google this. My mother wrote the Manual
[1:05:54] Speaker 4: of Terrible Things to Children that affected tens of thousands
[1:05:58] Speaker 4: of children. I'm keeping my words soft. I don't know
[1:06:00] Speaker 4: how soft we need to be. She literally wrote the
[1:06:04] Speaker 4: manual on child abuse. So again, no flex. My point
[1:06:08] Speaker 4: here is that I was raised by evil, psychotic people,
[1:06:11] Speaker 4: and I'm big on psychology, not only to understand and
[1:06:13] Speaker 4: reverse engineer this, but because we can't solve a problem
[1:06:17] Speaker 4: we don't understand. Also, I see a lot of people
[1:06:22] Speaker 4: pretending to solve this problem that don't understand it. It's
[1:06:27] Speaker 4: not helping anyone. So again with the dark humor. Right,
[1:06:30] Speaker 4: I'm a survivor of this. There's a lot of people
[1:06:33] Speaker 4: that want to call things like child trafficking a theory. Right,
[1:06:37] Speaker 4: we can unpack like why and why? You know, why
[1:06:40] Speaker 4: it's been politicized and stigmatized and what it is as
[1:06:42] Speaker 4: well as what it isn't. The point though, is that
[1:06:45] Speaker 4: it's a real thing, and I'm very happy for everyone
[1:06:47] Speaker 4: who doesn't understand what it is. Right. I do a
[1:06:49] Speaker 4: lot to educate people about it, but I really focus
[1:06:52] Speaker 4: on what we can actually do about it, not the
[1:06:55] Speaker 4: gory details, and definitely not the conspiracy theories because those
[1:06:58] Speaker 4: are not helping anyone. So I just want to put
[1:07:00] Speaker 4: it out there right y'all have heard some kookie things
[1:07:03] Speaker 4: from kookie people that did not know what they're talking about. Anyway,
[1:07:06] Speaker 4: there's a lot of people exploiting the problem of child
[1:07:10] Speaker 4: trafficking and trauma and all this kind of stuff. There's
[1:07:13] Speaker 4: a lot of people getting away with doing bad things
[1:07:15] Speaker 4: to children under the guise of Yay God, which is
[1:07:19] Speaker 4: what I call.
[1:07:21] Speaker 1: The Tenne of God is also wasn't also known as
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: the Family International.
[1:07:26] Speaker 4: Yeah, like I told you, they changed their names a
[1:07:28] Speaker 4: bunch of times and rebranded. The most famous names were
[1:07:31] Speaker 4: the Children of God, the Family, the Family International, which
[1:07:33] Speaker 4: is their current like washed up online church forum of
[1:07:37] Speaker 4: what they are now. Anyway, they had some other names
[1:07:41] Speaker 4: et cetera, like the Family of Love or whatever. They're
[1:07:43] Speaker 4: most famous for among critics right edophilia as well as trafficking,
[1:07:51] Speaker 4: as well as a lot of other forms of abuse. Now,
[1:07:53] Speaker 4: what society doesn't really comprehend is that there's a huge
[1:07:56] Speaker 4: difference with an adult who decides to join a cult,
[1:08:02] Speaker 4: is persuaded, is coerced to join a cult, and a
[1:08:05] Speaker 4: child who is born and raised into it and has
[1:08:08] Speaker 4: little to no access to the outside world, much less
[1:08:12] Speaker 4: advocacy or support. So the way I oversimplify that, right,
[1:08:15] Speaker 4: it's like being born and raised under a rock and
[1:08:17] Speaker 4: you're told from day one that red is blue and
[1:08:21] Speaker 4: that's your normal because that's all you know. And that's
[1:08:23] Speaker 4: also what every single picture on every wall, every song
[1:08:26] Speaker 4: you're allowed to listen to, every adult in your environment,
[1:08:28] Speaker 4: every piece of information you're allowed to access, which is
[1:08:31] Speaker 4: written by the cult, reinforces this belief that red is blue,
[1:08:35] Speaker 4: so that that's your normal and that's how you grow up. Now,
[1:08:38] Speaker 4: if you have a very extensive mind like mine, you
[1:08:40] Speaker 4: may start asking questions and you'll definitely get shut down.
[1:08:44] Speaker 4: But they'll definitely, you know, even if you're like, well,
[1:08:46] Speaker 4: I feel like sometimes red could be red because whatever,
[1:08:48] Speaker 4: and they're like, no, you must take it by faith.
[1:08:50] Speaker 4: And by the way, you're terrible for asking questions, etc.
[1:08:53] Speaker 4: So again, like thoughts and prayers to every adult, but
[1:08:56] Speaker 4: as a child, right, you don't have a lot of options.
[1:09:00] Speaker 4: We're not even talking about consent. We're saying we don't
[1:09:02] Speaker 4: have context to the outside world. Then, to take this
[1:09:06] Speaker 4: analogy a little further, you're told, like, let's pretend we're
[1:09:09] Speaker 4: born and raised on Mars and we're told Earth is
[1:09:11] Speaker 4: a flaming ball of fire. Right, you're told the outside
[1:09:14] Speaker 4: world is dangerous and God will bad things, and like
[1:09:18] Speaker 4: you won't make it out there, to say the least. Also,
[1:09:21] Speaker 4: you have no physical support. My family is in this cult.
[1:09:25] Speaker 4: Like that's a net negative, right, I don't exist on paper.
[1:09:29] Speaker 4: We didn't have an education or medical care or like
[1:09:32] Speaker 4: anything people can relate to in a normal childhood. So also,
[1:09:37] Speaker 4: this was an international cult that was in almost every
[1:09:40] Speaker 4: country around the world. So my mother is from Dallas, Texas.
[1:09:43] Speaker 4: I was born in Brazil. No resent, We just anyway.
[1:09:47] Speaker 4: Parents thought it'd be a great idea to raise five
[1:09:48] Speaker 4: white girls in third world countries. Yeah, so my sisters
[1:09:51] Speaker 4: were born all over the place. Anyway. Take eight year
[1:09:54] Speaker 4: old me and Brazil, five year old me in Brazil,
[1:09:56] Speaker 4: Take ten year old me in Mexico. Okay, let's pretend
[1:09:59] Speaker 4: let's go to Brazil. Let's pretend that I was able.
[1:10:01] Speaker 4: I'm going to give more context here. These are cult compounds.
[1:10:04] Speaker 4: We had about a fifty to one hundred and fifty
[1:10:06] Speaker 4: people in these compounds, a bunch of children. We lived communally.
[1:10:10] Speaker 4: This was all very biblical, of course, with a little
[1:10:13] Speaker 4: cult twist. Anyway, Let's pretend I could have like snuck
[1:10:17] Speaker 4: out of the room and snuck past the adults and
[1:10:19] Speaker 4: passed the scary guard dogs and literally jumped over this
[1:10:23] Speaker 4: wall with the glass and the barb wire stuff at
[1:10:25] Speaker 4: the top. Like, let's pretend I could physically escape. Let's
[1:10:28] Speaker 4: pretend then where would I have gone? Second question, would
[1:10:34] Speaker 4: I have been safer in the streets of Brazil?
[1:10:37] Speaker 1: Doesn't seem that way.
[1:10:39] Speaker 4: Right, So what I'm unpacking is like, Okay, my focus today,
[1:10:43] Speaker 4: what I do now. I'm not only an advocate, I'm
[1:10:44] Speaker 4: also a consultant. I'm astray strategist. I'm a little bit
[1:10:47] Speaker 4: of a bully to the politicians that are in the way.
[1:10:49] Speaker 4: I'm here to work with the people that are actually
[1:10:52] Speaker 4: here to solve problems, not just raise money and exploit
[1:10:56] Speaker 4: the problem. I'm a little salty, you can tell. I
[1:11:01] Speaker 4: think it's healthy dark humor. But there's a need on
[1:11:04] Speaker 4: a serious note, like, there's a need to actually understand
[1:11:06] Speaker 4: the problem and then have an effective response to it. Right,
[1:11:10] Speaker 4: So the official way to say that is trauma informed,
[1:11:13] Speaker 4: meaning understand the problem and make sure you're actually helping people,
[1:11:18] Speaker 4: not just throwing thoughts at prayers and things, not just
[1:11:21] Speaker 4: giving them some candy and toys and calling that a day,
[1:11:24] Speaker 4: not just giving them a place to stay, even for
[1:11:26] Speaker 4: one night, even though I never had that. But my
[1:11:28] Speaker 4: point is, do we really understand the problem in a
[1:11:31] Speaker 4: way that ensures we are helpful to the actual victims
[1:11:36] Speaker 4: or in taking down the bad guys, or in whatever
[1:11:38] Speaker 4: we're doing to eradicate this issue. Okay, we can talk
[1:11:41] Speaker 4: more about corruption in nonprofits, but the spoiler alert is
[1:11:46] Speaker 4: there are a lot of people simply exploiting the problem,
[1:11:49] Speaker 4: not a lot of people helping. All right, now, what
[1:11:53] Speaker 4: I do today, ironically, I also train law enforcement again
[1:11:57] Speaker 4: dark humor, But here's the short version I've worked on cover.
[1:12:00] Speaker 4: I've done a lot of things over the years to
[1:12:02] Speaker 4: do the real work, and legally we need law enforcement
[1:12:05] Speaker 4: there and it'd be really great. They were helpful, and
[1:12:08] Speaker 4: I've seen way too many situations where the help was
[1:12:11] Speaker 4: not helpful and often even made things worse. So when
[1:12:14] Speaker 4: you're in the heat of the moment, like I don't
[1:12:16] Speaker 4: even have to unpack this for you, but you can
[1:12:18] Speaker 4: understand what it's like being a survivor of this evil
[1:12:20] Speaker 4: and then volunteering emphasis, don't make money on this. This
[1:12:24] Speaker 4: is not my career. I fund all this work anyway.
[1:12:27] Speaker 4: I'm over here doing their job for them, and they're
[1:12:30] Speaker 4: over there sitting in the corner. But then when we
[1:12:32] Speaker 4: need them to step in and do some things, now
[1:12:35] Speaker 4: there's a lot of incompetence, and that's you know, frustrating,
[1:12:39] Speaker 4: to say the least, because obviously, oh, this is not
[1:12:43] Speaker 4: the time to guess. So when training isn't given, a
[1:12:47] Speaker 4: lot of mistakes are made, a lot of silly things happen,
[1:12:50] Speaker 4: and bad guys get away with it. Right. Beyond that, though,
[1:12:54] Speaker 4: we could actually redirect law enforcement from I think what
[1:12:57] Speaker 4: we can all agree on is should be every one's priority,
[1:13:00] Speaker 4: which is protecting children in our communities, but in a
[1:13:04] Speaker 4: way that's actually effective. Now, you know, I already know
[1:13:07] Speaker 4: there's a lot of people. I can't see the comments, right,
[1:13:09] Speaker 4: but people are like, why are you training law enforcement?
[1:13:11] Speaker 4: You're training the devil? And you know that's.
[1:13:15] Speaker 2: Here.
[1:13:15] Speaker 4: We are, all of us acknowledging problems. The difference is
[1:13:19] Speaker 4: I've stepped in to help solve these problems, right, I
[1:13:22] Speaker 4: wouldn't be here if there weren't problems. Number one. Number two,
[1:13:27] Speaker 4: I don't see a lot of people that know what
[1:13:28] Speaker 4: they're talking about. And number three, I know a lot
[1:13:31] Speaker 4: of law enforcement that really wants to help. Now I'm
[1:13:34] Speaker 4: talking about individuals. There's a lot to understand about law
[1:13:38] Speaker 4: enforcement and the structure, and honestly, like most people don't
[1:13:41] Speaker 4: understand how it's supposed to work, much less the failures
[1:13:44] Speaker 4: in their community and what we can actually do to help. Again,
[1:13:48] Speaker 4: you can't solve a problem you don't understand. So it's
[1:13:51] Speaker 4: been incredible to actually see a lot of really positive
[1:13:54] Speaker 4: things happening, a lot of unlikely heroes stepping up to help,
[1:13:59] Speaker 4: and a lot of people coming together who have been
[1:14:01] Speaker 4: burned by people who are operating under bias instead of
[1:14:06] Speaker 4: a solutions oriented approach. So again, like we can corrupt,
[1:14:10] Speaker 4: we can unpack corruption all over this place here, the
[1:14:13] Speaker 4: corruption that supports the industrial scale industry of child expectation
[1:14:18] Speaker 4: and trafficking in the United States, why is that thriving.
[1:14:22] Speaker 4: We can talk about corruption within things like law enforcement
[1:14:25] Speaker 4: and politics, you know, local, state, and federal, et cetera.
[1:14:28] Speaker 4: There's also a lot of nonprofit within Sorry, there's also
[1:14:31] Speaker 4: a lot of corruption within nonprofits and even groups that
[1:14:35] Speaker 4: are actually cults getting away with doing bad things to children,
[1:14:39] Speaker 4: but with the front of Yay God, so people look
[1:14:42] Speaker 4: the other way and allow it under the guise of
[1:14:44] Speaker 4: religious freedom.
[1:14:45] Speaker 3: Right, Kim, let me pay you one thing. People cannot
[1:14:49] Speaker 3: complain about a problem that they want solved unless they're
[1:14:51] Speaker 3: actually getting up and trying to solve the problem.
[1:14:56] Speaker 4: I agree with you, I'm also trying to be fair
[1:14:59] Speaker 4: about Like, I'm not asking everyone to dedicate their whole
[1:15:01] Speaker 4: life to this work.
[1:15:02] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:15:03] Speaker 4: My challenge to everyone is to pick one thing they
[1:15:05] Speaker 4: can do to be part of the solution, because I
[1:15:08] Speaker 4: wholeheartedly agree with you, But I'm also not like demanding
[1:15:11] Speaker 4: everybody's you know, focus. However, I don't think we have
[1:15:16] Speaker 4: an excuse to do nothing when it comes to children
[1:15:20] Speaker 4: being harmed in our country. I don't think we should
[1:15:22] Speaker 4: be the generation that allows this to continue thriving. Like,
[1:15:26] Speaker 4: I'm actually pretty hardcore about this, And let me put
[1:15:28] Speaker 4: it this way, I'd be like on a beach piecing
[1:15:31] Speaker 4: out of humanity a long time ago if it wasn't
[1:15:34] Speaker 4: like this. Hell, no moment about understanding. Look, it's one
[1:15:38] Speaker 4: thing to understand why I escaped and overcame, and you
[1:15:41] Speaker 4: know what that even means and etc. It's very different
[1:15:44] Speaker 4: to comprehend that this is such a big problem still
[1:15:50] Speaker 4: today in America and that so many people are ignoring
[1:15:53] Speaker 4: it intentionally. While politicians use terms like protecting children to
[1:15:59] Speaker 4: get votes and you know, sign new bills and things,
[1:16:02] Speaker 4: but on a federal level, I don't see an intentional
[1:16:06] Speaker 4: effort to actually combat this problem. Now. I know you
[1:16:10] Speaker 4: asked me to tell my story, and I can get
[1:16:12] Speaker 4: back to that, but I feel it's important to first
[1:16:15] Speaker 4: frame like what we're talking about, the size of it,
[1:16:18] Speaker 4: the intensity of it, and then you know, maybe people
[1:16:20] Speaker 4: can understand a little more like the passion as to
[1:16:23] Speaker 4: why I'm here, why this matters, and also what everyone
[1:16:26] Speaker 4: can do to be part of the solution.
[1:16:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be sure for people who don't know
[1:16:30] Speaker 1: the children, Oh what's that.
[1:16:32] Speaker 3: Dave, that's why we want to do this. We're this
[1:16:36] Speaker 3: is about protecting the children. And so many people sit
[1:16:38] Speaker 3: on their couches, scrolling through TikTok and complain about certain
[1:16:42] Speaker 3: things that happened, but they don't actually get off their
[1:16:44] Speaker 3: ass and actually do something. Kim is the epitome of
[1:16:48] Speaker 3: getting off her ass and actually doing something about helping children.
[1:16:53] Speaker 4: I appreciate it. Yeah, it's you know, awareness matters. I
[1:16:56] Speaker 4: think awareness reduces the predators ability to operate. It's important. However,
[1:17:02] Speaker 4: awareness is only step one. Awareness is just acknowledgment. Step
[1:17:06] Speaker 4: two is taking action. So my analogy for that is
[1:17:09] Speaker 4: like if we just stand there and acknowledge the fact
[1:17:11] Speaker 4: that our house is burning down, but we don't go
[1:17:13] Speaker 4: put the fire out, like that's not that helpful, right,
[1:17:17] Speaker 4: Or if we're like, it's never burned down before. I
[1:17:19] Speaker 4: haven't seen it on the news yet. I'm not a
[1:17:21] Speaker 4: fire man. I don't you know. I just can't be
[1:17:22] Speaker 4: bothered right now. You know it's going to burn to
[1:17:24] Speaker 4: the ground, or we can go save what we can.
[1:17:26] Speaker 4: So I try to keep a very like grounded, realistic
[1:17:29] Speaker 4: approach to again understanding the real problems and the real solutions,
[1:17:33] Speaker 4: because they're not what the media or the politicians are saying. Right.
[1:17:37] Speaker 4: There's also a lot more solvable aspects of this problem
[1:17:41] Speaker 4: than people think. So I think knowledge is power if
[1:17:44] Speaker 4: we choose to do something with it. And I know
[1:17:46] Speaker 4: for sure, like if little ol Me is out here
[1:17:49] Speaker 4: eradicating darkness with this little light of mind, you know
[1:17:52] Speaker 4: what I mean. I don't think anyone has an excuse not.
[1:17:54] Speaker 1: To right, couldn't agree. More, Let's start at, uh, a
[1:18:00] Speaker 1: little bit of background information on where you came from,
[1:18:03] Speaker 1: because if you don't know the Family International or the
[1:18:06] Speaker 1: Children of God cult or their various names, they've kind
[1:18:10] Speaker 1: of they've streamlined the abuse process through, like really early
[1:18:17] Speaker 1: on the idea that we could use sex for evangelism.
[1:18:24] Speaker 1: How how if you were actually part of the cult,
[1:18:28] Speaker 1: how pervasive is this?
[1:18:32] Speaker 4: All Right, so it's a good question, but I'm going
[1:18:35] Speaker 4: to kind of correct the premise. So again, if we
[1:18:37] Speaker 4: started in the late sixties, let me put it to
[1:18:40] Speaker 4: you like this. Okay, I was born in eighty nine,
[1:18:43] Speaker 4: all right, By the time I was born, there was
[1:18:46] Speaker 4: a lot of children already born into this cult. Decades
[1:18:48] Speaker 4: had gone by. In the very early days, there was
[1:18:51] Speaker 4: a lot less oversight. It was during this like free love,
[1:18:54] Speaker 4: Hippie and Jesus movement era of the United States, So
[1:18:58] Speaker 4: things were different back then. Okay, Now, this cult started
[1:19:02] Speaker 4: very puritanical again, like this hippie Jesus movement type thing,
[1:19:05] Speaker 4: but they would like separate the men and the women
[1:19:07] Speaker 4: and just kind of Christian Jesus freak stuff. It became
[1:19:13] Speaker 4: it spiraled into this very like free love type weirdo cult. Okay, again,
[1:19:18] Speaker 4: this was before I was born, but they went into
[1:19:20] Speaker 4: all these different countries. You can look into it. There's
[1:19:23] Speaker 4: been a lot of experts that study this called it
[1:19:25] Speaker 4: does seem that the founder was on the run, often
[1:19:27] Speaker 4: from intrepool and other international agencies. It does seem like
[1:19:31] Speaker 4: they were maybe covered for or assisted, but I can
[1:19:34] Speaker 4: talk more about that later. Anyways, before I was born,
[1:19:38] Speaker 4: people like my mother, who you know, really sold her
[1:19:41] Speaker 4: soul for cult power, worked her way up to this
[1:19:44] Speaker 4: position of she actually became the cult leader guy's babysitter anyway,
[1:19:49] Speaker 4: but anyways, whatever worked her way up into power. But
[1:19:53] Speaker 4: she was also like the Juliane Maxwell of the group.
[1:19:56] Speaker 4: What I mean by that is that they had a
[1:19:58] Speaker 4: pretty strong focus on recruitment, as most cults do, and
[1:20:03] Speaker 4: we could even say most religious organizations are very focused
[1:20:06] Speaker 4: on fundraising and recruiting. Right, I'm going to focus on
[1:20:10] Speaker 4: this cult, but I also want to talk about the
[1:20:13] Speaker 4: ten patterns of every cult because it's a playbook. So
[1:20:17] Speaker 4: they were all over the world, a lot of American people,
[1:20:20] Speaker 4: mostly young people, we'd say, and they came up with
[1:20:24] Speaker 4: this thing called flirty fishing, which was quite literally religious prostitution.
[1:20:31] Speaker 4: So we talked to them about Jesus and they give
[1:20:33] Speaker 4: us money because we're winning souls for the kingdom. It
[1:20:36] Speaker 4: was like a apocalyptic cult combined with this weird sex culty,
[1:20:42] Speaker 4: weird stuff. So anyway, there was like this urgency of
[1:20:44] Speaker 4: like the rapture and the weight of the world, and
[1:20:46] Speaker 4: we have to win everyone for Jesus, and that's why
[1:20:48] Speaker 4: there's this like, you know, the urgency aspect. And then
[1:20:51] Speaker 4: there was also this like free love and love is
[1:20:54] Speaker 4: God and love is love aspect of it, which morphed
[1:20:57] Speaker 4: or expanded more and more, unfortunately to where it was
[1:21:01] Speaker 4: not only accepted but promoted to share God's love with children. Okay,
[1:21:08] Speaker 4: so there were two reasons that I did not suffer
[1:21:10] Speaker 4: worst abuse. I just happened to be born last in
[1:21:13] Speaker 4: my sibling lineup. My oldest sibling suffered some of the
[1:21:17] Speaker 4: most unimaginable evil. They were raised with the actual leader,
[1:21:23] Speaker 4: David Berg. You can Wikipedia this stuff, like this stuff
[1:21:27] Speaker 4: is all over the internet. There were sixty There was
[1:21:29] Speaker 4: sixty minutes. There was Larry King Live. That was all
[1:21:32] Speaker 4: kinds of even international news, meaning a lot of people
[1:21:36] Speaker 4: filming the problem. That didn't help us the children anyway.
[1:21:41] Speaker 4: But there's a lot of information about this out there.
[1:21:44] Speaker 4: I'm summarizing a whole lot here. My family had kind
[1:21:47] Speaker 4: of this unique cult within a cult experience because of
[1:21:50] Speaker 4: our upbringing with leadership, which please believe is not less traumatic,
[1:21:56] Speaker 4: meaning like these are the most evil people, the worst abusers,
[1:21:59] Speaker 4: that maintain an earned these positions of power, like my mother.
[1:22:04] Speaker 4: So in the early you know, in the seventies, et cetera,
[1:22:08] Speaker 4: those kids had some of the worst of the worst,
[1:22:11] Speaker 4: and I like my upbringing was almost night and day
[1:22:14] Speaker 4: different to them, although no one with any semblance of
[1:22:17] Speaker 4: a childhood could relate to my childhood. So for context,
[1:22:22] Speaker 4: right by the time I was born, here's the second
[1:22:25] Speaker 4: reason why I suffered less abuses, because I was born
[1:22:28] Speaker 4: in eighty nine. I think it was like ninety two
[1:22:30] Speaker 4: and ninety three, there was a series of international raids.
[1:22:32] Speaker 4: It did seem coordinated because it was all around the
[1:22:35] Speaker 4: same time, but it was several different countries around the world.
[1:22:38] Speaker 4: For context, I was born in Brazil. I was in
[1:22:40] Speaker 4: Brazil at that time. The nearest raid to me was
[1:22:43] Speaker 4: in Argentina, so not even in the same country. We
[1:22:46] Speaker 4: had hundreds of cult compounds in every country, many in
[1:22:49] Speaker 4: you know, the larger countries, et cetera. So I'm going
[1:22:53] Speaker 4: to speed up this story, but there's a lot to
[1:22:55] Speaker 4: take away from it. Local authorities raided the cult compounds,
[1:22:59] Speaker 4: They arrested the adults, they rescued the children, and they
[1:23:02] Speaker 4: put them into institutions. Again, I'm speeding up the story.
[1:23:06] Speaker 4: A big takeaway though, is that people probably read headlines
[1:23:10] Speaker 4: that said children rescued, right. Unfortunately, in those institutions, a
[1:23:14] Speaker 4: lot of children suffered worse abuse and some babies even
[1:23:19] Speaker 4: did not make it. However, fast forward a couple short years,
[1:23:25] Speaker 4: there was an international court case out of UK with
[1:23:27] Speaker 4: I think it's Lord Justice Wallace or something like that,
[1:23:29] Speaker 4: this UK judge and you can read it like a
[1:23:32] Speaker 4: one hundred and eighty five pag dissertation. Again, this is
[1:23:34] Speaker 4: all court documents go for it, lists of abuse and children,
[1:23:38] Speaker 4: woof the bad things. That cult was acquitted two short
[1:23:44] Speaker 4: years unpacked that corruption on an international level. They were like,
[1:23:47] Speaker 4: although we see this is really crazy and probably not
[1:23:50] Speaker 4: safe for children, and we believe and here's all this
[1:23:53] Speaker 4: all these experts think it's not safe. But anyways, goodbye,
[1:23:56] Speaker 4: and everyone went home and not one an adult was convicted,
[1:24:00] Speaker 4: and you best believe the children were returned, meaning nothing happened.
[1:24:04] Speaker 4: Everyone can go home. It's fine. Never mind. So lots
[1:24:08] Speaker 4: more to be said there, but you know, lots of takeaways.
[1:24:11] Speaker 4: Just because the headlines say children are rescue does not
[1:24:13] Speaker 4: mean children are safe. I'll give the local authorities to
[1:24:16] Speaker 4: benefit of the doubt, like they didn't probably know what
[1:24:17] Speaker 4: to expect or have their resources to handle fifty kids,
[1:24:20] Speaker 4: you know. Great, But also what it did do it
[1:24:24] Speaker 4: reduced the predator's ability to operate. Awareness makes it harder
[1:24:30] Speaker 4: for bad things, for bad guys to get away with
[1:24:32] Speaker 4: doing bad things to children. So this ready religious persecution
[1:24:39] Speaker 4: for righteousness sake, it forced the cult to pretend to
[1:24:43] Speaker 4: be less abusive. They literally implemented age minimums and a
[1:24:47] Speaker 4: book that they called the Charter that had like rules
[1:24:51] Speaker 4: and minimums and maximums, and we had less bad things
[1:24:57] Speaker 4: compared to those of my older siblings. However, our stories
[1:25:02] Speaker 4: did not end there. We were not given education or
[1:25:07] Speaker 4: medical care or you know, access to the outside world.
[1:25:10] Speaker 4: The limited access we had to the outside world was
[1:25:12] Speaker 4: when we were sent outside the compound walls to fundraise
[1:25:16] Speaker 4: in third world countries. Again, I was most in Brazil.
[1:25:19] Speaker 4: I was raised mostly in Brazil and Mexico. We could
[1:25:22] Speaker 4: unpack so much more about the group dynamic, the group think,
[1:25:26] Speaker 4: the psychology. But again, let's just let's focus. Let's remember this, right,
[1:25:31] Speaker 4: my parents and tens of thousands of other grown ass
[1:25:34] Speaker 4: adults or young adults or whatever it is. Like, let's
[1:25:37] Speaker 4: let's do a little case study on my mom real quick. Okay,
[1:25:40] Speaker 4: she's out of Dallas, Texas. Her family was like, well,
[1:25:42] Speaker 4: the Baptist people anyway, My mother was a Dallas cowboy cheerleader,
[1:25:47] Speaker 4: fun fact in the late sixties. She is, you know,
[1:25:51] Speaker 4: lost in searching and vulnerable and like hippie druggy college
[1:25:55] Speaker 4: student whatever, free love and hugs and Jesus and yay
[1:25:58] Speaker 4: gets on board, all right, super fake wonderful. Then you
[1:26:02] Speaker 4: have children, right, and every single day, this is my opinion,
[1:26:07] Speaker 4: every single day that you continue making that decision to
[1:26:10] Speaker 4: stay in this environment and raise your kids in this
[1:26:13] Speaker 4: environment like that is a daily choice. And no matter
[1:26:16] Speaker 4: where you came from, you do have context of what
[1:26:19] Speaker 4: the outside world is. You know, Earth is not a
[1:26:21] Speaker 4: flaming ball of fire, but you're perpetuating this belief that
[1:26:25] Speaker 4: earth is a flaming ball of fire, right, and that
[1:26:27] Speaker 4: God will smite you down, and that this is God's
[1:26:29] Speaker 4: highest will, and that terrible things to children is God's love.
[1:26:33] Speaker 4: And like, you know the amount of psychological manipulation and
[1:26:36] Speaker 4: all that, right, we know how effective brainwashing is on adults.
[1:26:41] Speaker 4: Just understand how that is on a child, and then
[1:26:45] Speaker 4: acknowledge the process of deprogramming yourself to the extent that
[1:26:51] Speaker 4: as a child, not only do you have the courage
[1:26:53] Speaker 4: to ask questions because that takes courage in those environments,
[1:26:55] Speaker 4: and to keep pushing and to be logical and all
[1:26:58] Speaker 4: of that, but then to make that leap of faith
[1:27:01] Speaker 4: knowing you don't exist in the outside world, you have
[1:27:03] Speaker 4: no support, You'll be cut off from everything and all
[1:27:06] Speaker 4: everyone you were raised with, et cetera. And then you
[1:27:09] Speaker 4: make that leap of faith anyway because you're like, you
[1:27:11] Speaker 4: know what, I'd rather burn in a ball of flames
[1:27:15] Speaker 4: than stay here. And you make that leap of faith
[1:27:18] Speaker 4: and you land there and you're like, oh my god,
[1:27:20] Speaker 4: I didn't burn. And then you're like, now what, like literally,
[1:27:24] Speaker 4: now what, I didn't have a you know what I mean,
[1:27:26] Speaker 4: no support system. So I hit the ground running. You know,
[1:27:28] Speaker 4: I worked hard at things I'm really proud of. Meaning
[1:27:31] Speaker 4: there's a lot of different people's experience and how they
[1:27:33] Speaker 4: were able to leave. Like just you know, my oldest
[1:27:35] Speaker 4: sister was in like Moscow or something. She was like
[1:27:38] Speaker 4: eighteen when she escaped. It was like this KGB like
[1:27:40] Speaker 4: bro crazy things of how children and young people were
[1:27:44] Speaker 4: able to get out, right. So I have huge respects
[1:27:46] Speaker 4: and by the I want to acknowledge get out of
[1:27:49] Speaker 4: this crazy, crazy environment and then get into this crazy
[1:27:53] Speaker 4: unknown world again with zero support and try to survive
[1:27:56] Speaker 4: out there right. And then some of those you.
[1:28:00] Speaker 1: Split from your SAT to escape when you were younger.
[1:28:04] Speaker 4: I'm I have a fourteen year age difference from my
[1:28:07] Speaker 4: older sister, So I remember when I have I have
[1:28:11] Speaker 4: a really crazy good memory. So I remember when she
[1:28:14] Speaker 4: left Russia. I was five years old. We didn't see
[1:28:17] Speaker 4: her for a long time. She left this cult when
[1:28:19] Speaker 4: she was eighteen. Anyone who left was like an antagonist
[1:28:22] Speaker 4: and there's a demon possessed murmur mamra whatever they call that.
[1:28:26] Speaker 4: We had to like pray against her and stuff. So
[1:28:28] Speaker 4: we were very strange. Anyway, The short end their tier question.
[1:28:33] Speaker 4: The short end sor to your question with all the
[1:28:35] Speaker 4: dark humors. Like, man, a lot of kids had a
[1:28:37] Speaker 4: lot of parents all over the place, and we didn't
[1:28:38] Speaker 4: really have the individuality of families dark humor. But the
[1:28:43] Speaker 4: good thing is my mom didn't raise us because she's, yeah,
[1:28:48] Speaker 4: one of the worst abusers, but then she gave us
[1:28:50] Speaker 4: to the worst abusers, so that wasn't great. There was
[1:28:55] Speaker 4: a lot of you know, physical, mental, emotional, sexual, like
[1:28:57] Speaker 4: all the things, all the things. So I grew up
[1:29:00] Speaker 4: for the most part with three of my other sisters. Anyway,
[1:29:05] Speaker 4: a lot of us have half siblings, and it's real
[1:29:07] Speaker 4: complicated and we just don't go there, but not don't
[1:29:11] Speaker 4: go there, but I mean, like we don't even try
[1:29:13] Speaker 4: to figure that out. So we laugh about it all anyway.
[1:29:17] Speaker 4: All that to say, like I have you know the
[1:29:19] Speaker 4: way I'm wired. If you will, you can see the
[1:29:21] Speaker 4: dark humor in the sarcasm, right, But it's also like
[1:29:24] Speaker 4: I'm truly the happiest person I know, you know what
[1:29:26] Speaker 4: I mean, Like talking about this stuff doesn't make me cry,
[1:29:29] Speaker 4: doesn't make me angry, for sure, there are certain things
[1:29:31] Speaker 4: that are hard to talk about. But my like why
[1:29:34] Speaker 4: I'm talking about this, it's not to tell a sad
[1:29:36] Speaker 4: story from thirty years ago, a problem no one solved.
[1:29:39] Speaker 4: It's not about that. It's about this problem today that
[1:29:42] Speaker 4: so many people are willing to ignore. It's the one
[1:29:46] Speaker 4: that so many politicians are willing to exploit. Yet none
[1:29:50] Speaker 4: of them are even brave enough to talk about, much
[1:29:54] Speaker 4: less act. Right, So let me ask you a rhetorical question.
[1:29:58] Speaker 4: When we're talking about childrafficking, Okay, it's a sale and
[1:30:01] Speaker 4: exploitation of children. Just to define terms real quick, We're
[1:30:04] Speaker 4: not just talking about child abuse. Okay, there's this whole
[1:30:08] Speaker 4: spectrum of terrible things, all types of bad things, all right,
[1:30:12] Speaker 4: separate spectrum of trafficking. One hundred percent of trafficking is abuse,
[1:30:17] Speaker 4: not all abuses, trafficking tracking. So child trafficking in America,
[1:30:24] Speaker 4: it's generating at least seventy six billion dollars every year,
[1:30:29] Speaker 4: every single year. That's more than all professional sports combined.
[1:30:33] Speaker 1: It's crazy.
[1:30:35] Speaker 4: It's the fastest growing and it's the second largest criminal
[1:30:39] Speaker 4: enterprise on the planet, second largest. Bro Like, this is
[1:30:42] Speaker 4: not a top twenty issue. Yeah, I could blow your
[1:30:46] Speaker 4: mind with more stats. But here's my rhetorical question. Now
[1:30:48] Speaker 4: that I've quantified a little bit. Okay, ready, why doesn't
[1:30:52] Speaker 4: our federal government have a federal agency that's dedicated to
[1:30:57] Speaker 4: combating human trafficking.
[1:31:00] Speaker 1: Because they're incompetent. They don't care.
[1:31:03] Speaker 4: Is it incompetence or is it intentional? Like, let me
[1:31:05] Speaker 4: let me frame this a different way. You know how
[1:31:07] Speaker 4: there's the war on drugs and that's not very effective.
[1:31:09] Speaker 2: Right.
[1:31:10] Speaker 4: We could use the word in competence, but a lot
[1:31:11] Speaker 4: of politicians have made a lot of sounds with their
[1:31:13] Speaker 4: mouth referencing it for votes and support. Am I right?
[1:31:18] Speaker 1: Anyway, some of them would be involved if they started
[1:31:22] Speaker 1: a group to out the the pedos question.
[1:31:27] Speaker 4: Right, So I'm not actually pretending like the federal government
[1:31:30] Speaker 4: would be effective at solving this problem. I'm raising awareness
[1:31:33] Speaker 4: about the fact that they're not even pretending to care.
[1:31:38] Speaker 4: They're not even trying to get our votes or launder
[1:31:40] Speaker 4: money pretending to care. They're straight up. Did you know
[1:31:44] Speaker 4: we have federal agencies for education and water and like
[1:31:47] Speaker 4: fifty other things I could list that You're like, we
[1:31:49] Speaker 4: have an agency, we have like a whole agency for water, Okay,
[1:31:53] Speaker 4: but not for human trafficking, like not even child trafficking.
[1:31:57] Speaker 4: Human trafficking. We don't so like, the FBI does some
[1:32:00] Speaker 4: things HSIDH is like we have some people that do
[1:32:03] Speaker 4: there's like departments within a you know, we don't have
[1:32:06] Speaker 4: a federal agency that's dedicated to it. So I could
[1:32:09] Speaker 4: ask a lot more rhetorical questions, but emphasis on rhetorical
[1:32:13] Speaker 4: I want people to unpack the logic for themselves. Right,
[1:32:16] Speaker 4: wrong answers only, wouldn't protecting children be the thing that
[1:32:22] Speaker 4: should unite us all? Like if I was a politician
[1:32:25] Speaker 4: and I wanted everyone's votes, wouldn't that be like the easy,
[1:32:28] Speaker 4: low hanging fruit of like I'm gonna do something helpful.
[1:32:31] Speaker 4: Wouldn't you at least pretend to care for them? We
[1:32:33] Speaker 4: see them doing that with everything else, right, So, like,
[1:32:36] Speaker 4: why are they not even making sounds with their mouth?
[1:32:38] Speaker 4: More specifically, like we've never heard the term child trafficking
[1:32:43] Speaker 4: on a presidential debate stage, live in front of the world.
[1:32:47] Speaker 4: That's kind of your opportunity to trash your opponent, is
[1:32:49] Speaker 4: it not? Why are we not even pretending to care?
[1:32:52] Speaker 4: Wrong answers only? Is it incompetence or is it intentional?
[1:33:00] Speaker 1: It seems intentional.
[1:33:01] Speaker 4: Yeah, either way, it's unacceptable.
[1:33:05] Speaker 3: But again one question, Yeah, I don't know if you've
[1:33:10] Speaker 3: seen this, because we haven't talked that much. A lot
[1:33:14] Speaker 3: of times the abuse, the one who is abused becomes
[1:33:18] Speaker 3: the abuser. Hey have you seen any of that? Have
[1:33:20] Speaker 3: any you know? Has anyone who has been abused become
[1:33:23] Speaker 3: the abuser that you know of?
[1:33:28] Speaker 4: I want I want to I want to like frame
[1:33:29] Speaker 4: the question and the answer. I'm not trying to be
[1:33:32] Speaker 4: long winded. I'm very targeted, not only with words and stuff,
[1:33:36] Speaker 4: not because of the word, but because we need to
[1:33:38] Speaker 4: understand this problem. Okay, So here's the short version. Hurt people.
[1:33:41] Speaker 4: Hurt people also healed people, heal people, meaning just because
[1:33:48] Speaker 4: you were abused does not mean you will abuse. Absolutely not.
[1:33:53] Speaker 4: There are many survivors that turn into the absolute opposite
[1:33:56] Speaker 4: of what they were told to be or trained to be,
[1:33:58] Speaker 4: or what the bad guys did, whatever it is. However,
[1:34:01] Speaker 4: we do have an epidemic of hurt people hurting people
[1:34:04] Speaker 4: in society today. But that goes pretty broadly applied, right,
[1:34:10] Speaker 4: so I can unpack, like, if we're going to get
[1:34:12] Speaker 4: into the characteristics of predators, I would have to unpack
[1:34:16] Speaker 4: more characteristics to really frame the pattern, because, in other words,
[1:34:20] Speaker 4: having been abused as a child is not the pattern.
[1:34:23] Speaker 4: Does that make sense? That can be a contributing factor
[1:34:26] Speaker 4: to the pattern or or the characteristics as a whole.
[1:34:29] Speaker 4: If we're building like a target package, does that make sense? Right?
[1:34:32] Speaker 3: I'm talking about like a closed system, like a closed
[1:34:35] Speaker 3: system where you don't know the outside world and your
[1:34:37] Speaker 3: abuse do those.
[1:34:40] Speaker 4: Oh, from from within these controlled environments?
[1:34:43] Speaker 3: Right? Right?
[1:34:44] Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, this is hard to talk about. So
[1:34:47] Speaker 4: we're when children are taught that behavior, they will when
[1:34:55] Speaker 4: children are taught and forced in that behavior. Yes, absolutely, children, Okay,
[1:35:01] Speaker 4: those children can often grow up and because of this
[1:35:05] Speaker 4: psychological manipulation process called grooming, meaning how the predator desensitizes
[1:35:10] Speaker 4: the child too harmful and inappropriate behaviors. Absolutely, that can
[1:35:15] Speaker 4: be a thing you can teach kids to do. Now again,
[1:35:20] Speaker 4: children are innocent sponges, right. The red is blue analogy
[1:35:24] Speaker 4: is to oversimplify like a whole lot there. I just
[1:35:28] Speaker 4: I don't focus on the gory details. But the answer
[1:35:30] Speaker 4: to your question, of course, in these environments, if they
[1:35:34] Speaker 4: believe that it's God's highest will for an adult with
[1:35:37] Speaker 4: a child. Look, I'm not gonna be graphic, but like
[1:35:42] Speaker 4: the book my mother wrote had images and descriptions and
[1:35:46] Speaker 4: depictions of all of this and my sister as a baby, Kim, Kim.
[1:35:53] Speaker 3: The only reason I asked this is because I want
[1:35:55] Speaker 3: people to understand how deep it really goes. I want
[1:36:00] Speaker 3: people to actually truly understand how deep it goes that
[1:36:03] Speaker 3: you could take a child and teach them to do
[1:36:05] Speaker 3: heinous acts to others. That's why I always ask questions.
[1:36:10] Speaker 4: Just imagine yeah, no, like, I get where you're coming from.
[1:36:13] Speaker 4: That's why you know. Uh. Then imagine being told that
[1:36:19] Speaker 4: that's love. Again, brainwashing is very effective on grown ass
[1:36:24] Speaker 4: adults who know better. Imagine that being your context of
[1:36:28] Speaker 4: what is love as a child. This group was very
[1:36:33] Speaker 4: infamous for the thing that rhymes with ed oh philia,
[1:36:36] Speaker 4: like I mentioned, And again that is not only being
[1:36:40] Speaker 4: instructed to you. That's a whole process and everything I'm
[1:36:44] Speaker 4: saying people can look up. I'm not recommending you look
[1:36:47] Speaker 4: for the graphic details, but I am saying these were
[1:36:50] Speaker 4: people who call themselves Christians, who absolutely and some to
[1:36:54] Speaker 4: this day, believe that was God's highest will, that it
[1:36:58] Speaker 4: was showing God's love. That because God made pleasure, that
[1:37:02] Speaker 4: kids must like. It goes so deep that being said,
[1:37:07] Speaker 4: this is definitely not specific to this cult. Right now.
[1:37:11] Speaker 4: We can go all over the place with this. There's
[1:37:13] Speaker 4: a lot of those a psychologist, psychiologist. Do you guys
[1:37:17] Speaker 4: know who Alfred Kinsey is?
[1:37:19] Speaker 1: I don't.
[1:37:22] Speaker 4: Side like unrelated to the cult. You should look up
[1:37:25] Speaker 4: the name Alfred Kinsey and I haven't. Anyway, he contributed
[1:37:29] Speaker 4: to a lot of research that led a lot of
[1:37:31] Speaker 4: trains of thought that oof. He experimented on many children
[1:37:37] Speaker 4: a day and collected data on the response to trauma
[1:37:45] Speaker 4: and made people believe that because they like it, it's
[1:37:48] Speaker 4: good and that same education is still affecting a lot
[1:37:51] Speaker 4: of things in society today. Look up that Kinsey Institute.
[1:37:56] Speaker 4: This piece of shit has a statue outside. I'm just
[1:38:01] Speaker 4: you know, saying, there's a lot of this in woven
[1:38:06] Speaker 4: within our society that people are unaware of, and it
[1:38:09] Speaker 4: influences a lot more than we understand. There's also a
[1:38:12] Speaker 4: lot of trains of thoughts and people experts who have
[1:38:15] Speaker 4: studied cults, specifically this one and others that they believe that.
[1:38:20] Speaker 4: You know, a lot of times, there's somewhat of an
[1:38:23] Speaker 4: experiment where you observe groups of people and their reaction
[1:38:27] Speaker 4: to things, and you collect data and things like that.
[1:38:30] Speaker 4: I don't have proof of that. It's plausible, but my
[1:38:33] Speaker 4: point is we definitely have evidence of our government, art
[1:38:39] Speaker 4: of our society being very intentional about bad things happening
[1:38:45] Speaker 4: to people sacrificing people for profits and power. Right in
[1:38:49] Speaker 4: my opinion, like just please know there's you know, escaped.
[1:38:52] Speaker 4: When I escape, it's called When I was twenty years old,
[1:38:54] Speaker 4: fast forward about ten years, I was doing really good
[1:38:56] Speaker 4: things in the world. I had multiple businesses, like I
[1:38:58] Speaker 4: was anyway. My response is I'm on workaholic, but anyway,
[1:39:02] Speaker 4: I do good things, so that's fine. Point is though,
[1:39:05] Speaker 4: when it came to my attention it was twenty nineteen,
[1:39:07] Speaker 4: we were doing this awareness campaign one of my companies.
[1:39:10] Speaker 4: We did a wear campaigns for different good causes. I
[1:39:12] Speaker 4: would th really vet the causes because I'm very skeptical
[1:39:14] Speaker 4: of nonprofits. Anyway, we did one for the Missing and
[1:39:17] Speaker 4: Murdered Indigenous Women, Women and Children and the MMIW cause
[1:39:22] Speaker 4: if you guys know anything about that, And it was
[1:39:24] Speaker 4: my first three sixty huh, like going understanding that that
[1:39:32] Speaker 4: problem is a huge issue today. Number one, like why
[1:39:36] Speaker 4: is nobody talking about this? It was my what the
[1:39:38] Speaker 4: fuck moment with like how is this a thing, right,
[1:39:41] Speaker 4: I had seen bad things far far away and twenty
[1:39:45] Speaker 4: years ago, thirty years ago, but like I think all
[1:39:46] Speaker 4: of us would like to think that that could never
[1:39:48] Speaker 4: happen in our country. There's no way that true. You
[1:39:51] Speaker 4: must be exaggerating and being dramatic, right, I really wish
[1:39:54] Speaker 4: that was true. In digging into the data or lack thereof,
[1:39:58] Speaker 4: But what we can prove, right, it's not an alarming
[1:40:01] Speaker 4: that this stuff is thriving, but also that it's so
[1:40:05] Speaker 4: protected and supported and even funded to some extent. So
[1:40:11] Speaker 4: that's that's a whole other rabbit hole there. But my
[1:40:15] Speaker 4: point is that if we were just to quantify, right,
[1:40:20] Speaker 4: seventy six billion dollars a year is what was on
[1:40:23] Speaker 4: record a couple years ago. And believe traffickers ain't filing taxes,
[1:40:28] Speaker 4: so whatever is reported is barely scratching the tip of
[1:40:30] Speaker 4: the iceberg, you know what I mean? Most of this
[1:40:33] Speaker 4: is not reported. Nobody knows the real numbers. But let's
[1:40:35] Speaker 4: go with what's reported. Imagine how many children that is
[1:40:39] Speaker 4: every single year. Imagine if it was only one hundred
[1:40:46] Speaker 4: children a year. Though, let's go let's go more realistic.
[1:40:49] Speaker 4: Imagine if it was only ten thousand children a year
[1:40:52] Speaker 4: that are being trafficked in America. We're not hearing about that.
[1:40:57] Speaker 4: Why do we know every detail of XYZ celebrities at
[1:41:00] Speaker 4: XYZ event but we don't know about child trafficking in America? Well,
[1:41:04] Speaker 4: you know, I could ask a bunch more rhetorical questions,
[1:41:07] Speaker 4: but you see where I'm going with this. It definitely
[1:41:09] Speaker 4: seems to me like our politicians are too cowardly and
[1:41:12] Speaker 4: corrupt to even make sounds with their mouth about it.
[1:41:15] Speaker 4: And my initial approach when I revisited this was trying
[1:41:18] Speaker 4: to get everyone else to do their jobs. It's logical, right,
[1:41:22] Speaker 4: I was like, let me just go help them and
[1:41:24] Speaker 4: tell them and mixture they play nice. And it came
[1:41:28] Speaker 4: to my attention pretty quickly that there are a lot
[1:41:30] Speaker 4: of people again exploiting the problem, and there's even more people,
[1:41:34] Speaker 4: it seems, protecting the problem, or at least very uninterested
[1:41:37] Speaker 4: in solving this problem. So my brain thinks and systems,
[1:41:41] Speaker 4: and you know, I'm a self proclaimed nerd, and I
[1:41:43] Speaker 4: enjoy these like psychology type things and understanding problems and
[1:41:47] Speaker 4: reverse engineering them. So I've identified certain let's call them
[1:41:50] Speaker 4: major industries or aspects of our society that seem to
[1:41:54] Speaker 4: be closest to the root cause. In a word, I
[1:41:58] Speaker 4: would say the root cause is corruption, just to understand
[1:42:01] Speaker 4: the premise, right, but to be more targeted, right, why
[1:42:05] Speaker 4: is this thing thriving? Why don't we see efforts against it?
[1:42:08] Speaker 4: Why don't we see support for survivors? Why are people
[1:42:10] Speaker 4: getting away with it? Right now? I want to unpack
[1:42:15] Speaker 4: a pattern that I see play out in society today
[1:42:17] Speaker 4: that this cult certainly used. Now again, the premise was
[1:42:21] Speaker 4: that we were Christian missionaries and we were always fundraising
[1:42:25] Speaker 4: for Christian missionary work or like you know, winning souls
[1:42:29] Speaker 4: for Jesus and whatever. All Right, you can call that grifting,
[1:42:32] Speaker 4: you can call that money laundering. Lot's going on there,
[1:42:34] Speaker 4: But I'm just gonna stay with the point here. The
[1:42:37] Speaker 4: premise though, was yae, God, right, we were like mostly
[1:42:41] Speaker 4: American people and children being trafficked all over the world.
[1:42:45] Speaker 4: So granted we were like the token foreigners, and that's
[1:42:47] Speaker 4: already kind of exotic, I guess, And things were different
[1:42:51] Speaker 4: back then. You know, a lot of this was before
[1:42:52] Speaker 4: the Internet. Like, I get it, there's differences and how
[1:42:55] Speaker 4: that played out. But I also want to focus on
[1:42:59] Speaker 4: the four years of my childhood that I was in
[1:43:01] Speaker 4: the United States from the age of ten to fourteen.
[1:43:06] Speaker 4: Obviously a child, okay, not like maybe eighteen, No, pretty
[1:43:09] Speaker 4: Obviously I had more of a baby face back then. Okay, Now,
[1:43:13] Speaker 4: I imagine every single week and weekend, I was on
[1:43:18] Speaker 4: the streets. I was in restaurants, I was in shopping malls,
[1:43:21] Speaker 4: I was in grocery stores, I was in people's houses,
[1:43:22] Speaker 4: I was in all kinds of famous landmarks and locations
[1:43:26] Speaker 4: in the Houston, Texas area, which, by the way, is
[1:43:29] Speaker 4: to this day one of the biggest hot spots of
[1:43:31] Speaker 4: human trafficking in the country. Houston, Houston, Texas, Harris County,
[1:43:38] Speaker 4: Personal Nation in Texas, Texas is one of the biggest children.
[1:43:44] Speaker 3: Through the homeless homeless Bridge and created a bunch of
[1:43:48] Speaker 3: havoc down there. So, yeah, it's outside of Houston's really bad.
[1:43:53] Speaker 4: Yeah, Texas is one of Granted it's a massive state
[1:43:56] Speaker 4: and it's a border state, but it's no one knows
[1:43:58] Speaker 4: the real numbers. I reference data very you know, with
[1:44:01] Speaker 4: a grain of salt, but it's definitely one of the
[1:44:03] Speaker 4: most popular tates for traffickings. Put it that way. I've
[1:44:06] Speaker 4: seen things like top two. I'm not sure how they're
[1:44:08] Speaker 4: sure anyway. Okay, So imagine driving by like a busy
[1:44:15] Speaker 4: intersection in Houston, Texas, and you see like a ten
[1:44:18] Speaker 4: year old twelve year old girl, or on a street
[1:44:20] Speaker 4: corner like raising money for Christian missionary work. Right, thousands
[1:44:24] Speaker 4: of people drove by me, asked me questions, thousands of
[1:44:28] Speaker 4: Christians debated me on which denomination we are and all
[1:44:30] Speaker 4: these exhausting things. You know, it occurred to me a
[1:44:34] Speaker 4: couple of years ago. Not one person asked me if
[1:44:37] Speaker 4: I was okay. Now, one concerned citizen or law enforcement
[1:44:43] Speaker 4: officer had that awareness.
[1:44:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, a little kid holding up a sign by your
[1:44:48] Speaker 1: lonesome on a curve, that's right.
[1:44:52] Speaker 4: Or like alone in a restaurant making you know, like
[1:44:56] Speaker 4: selling things and fundraising whatever, like hi are you? Why
[1:44:59] Speaker 4: aren't you in school? Where are your parents?
[1:45:01] Speaker 2: What? You know? What I mean?
[1:45:02] Speaker 4: It's not like a kid basketball team where we're all there.
[1:45:04] Speaker 4: It's like a couple kids on this what Not one
[1:45:07] Speaker 4: person had that awareness to ask questions. Now, here's where
[1:45:12] Speaker 4: things get complex. And here's why I trained people today,
[1:45:16] Speaker 4: because we have to understand this problem in order to
[1:45:18] Speaker 4: solve it. Okay, did you guys know that un like
[1:45:21] Speaker 4: all the conspiracy theories you've read, the number one most
[1:45:24] Speaker 4: reported form of child trafficking in America is familial trafficking.
[1:45:31] Speaker 1: I actually did know about this one, which is crazy
[1:45:35] Speaker 1: but believable.
[1:45:37] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also not it's not the scary bad guy
[1:45:40] Speaker 4: jumping out of a white van with a mask and
[1:45:41] Speaker 4: a weapon. It's people the kid is supposed to trust.
[1:45:45] Speaker 4: It's people the kid already knows. And again when it's
[1:45:48] Speaker 4: the parents, that makes it very identic, very difficult to
[1:45:52] Speaker 4: identify the victims, but also like, how do we help them?
[1:45:56] Speaker 4: So in this correct So like hypothetically, if a law
[1:46:00] Speaker 4: enforcement officer had asked the right questions and was like,
[1:46:03] Speaker 4: you can't be here, I'm taking you home, and had
[1:46:05] Speaker 4: actually taken me home, they would have taken me home
[1:46:07] Speaker 4: to my parents who were trafficking me. Right. So my
[1:46:11] Speaker 4: point is it's not that there's an easy fix to
[1:46:13] Speaker 4: all of this, but here's what it would have done.
[1:46:19] Speaker 4: I could have spent less time on the streets. Awareness
[1:46:23] Speaker 4: would have reduced the predator's ability to operate. More importantly,
[1:46:28] Speaker 4: I think around tens ten thousand children would have spent
[1:46:32] Speaker 4: less time on the streets if someone had asked the
[1:46:36] Speaker 4: right questions that could have led to answers that could
[1:46:39] Speaker 4: have led to you can't have kids out here drifting
[1:46:41] Speaker 4: for you. And by the way, you need to have
[1:46:43] Speaker 4: them in school. Just imagine, like if we could have
[1:46:46] Speaker 4: had like a little support or like an education, you know,
[1:46:50] Speaker 4: there could have been something that absolutely could have meant
[1:46:55] Speaker 4: tens of thousands of children would have had a childhood.
[1:46:59] Speaker 4: So I tell that story for a few things, like
[1:47:01] Speaker 4: I didn't look like a you know, starving, dirty child
[1:47:04] Speaker 4: on the side of the road with a science saying help.
[1:47:06] Speaker 4: The sign said Christian missionary fundraiser. Right. We got away
[1:47:11] Speaker 4: with it often because when you say yay God, a
[1:47:14] Speaker 4: lot of people say amen, and they look the other way,
[1:47:18] Speaker 4: especially when you're doing something kind of kookie or like
[1:47:20] Speaker 4: not necessarily appropriate, like why are a bunch of little
[1:47:23] Speaker 4: white girls and thermo countries? Ah Christian missionaries? All right,
[1:47:26] Speaker 4: buy kookie. What I want society to understand though, and this,
[1:47:31] Speaker 4: you know, well, let me say this first, like, here's
[1:47:33] Speaker 4: my opinion. We have a free country. If you're a
[1:47:34] Speaker 4: grown ass adult and you want to go do koogie
[1:47:36] Speaker 4: stuff in the forest, like, okay, free country. Here's the
[1:47:39] Speaker 4: line in the cement we need to have. You can't
[1:47:41] Speaker 4: bring children into it. See how easy that is. Like,
[1:47:45] Speaker 4: if you want to do stuff with your life as
[1:47:47] Speaker 4: an adult, that is your choice, thoughts and prayers. Children though,
[1:47:51] Speaker 4: should not be left without protection, especially in these highly
[1:47:55] Speaker 4: controlled environments where they're not allowed access to the outside world.
[1:48:00] Speaker 4: It's much more difficult to deprogram yourself when you don't
[1:48:04] Speaker 4: have any lifeline, much less support system.
[1:48:10] Speaker 3: But that falls in between separation of church and state.
[1:48:13] Speaker 3: So you know, and as what makes it difficult, right
[1:48:18] Speaker 3: until the church needs the state and then all of
[1:48:19] Speaker 3: a sudden the state falls in. But you know, they
[1:48:21] Speaker 3: have that separation.
[1:48:23] Speaker 4: It's a slippery slope because to your I feel I
[1:48:26] Speaker 4: feel like I'm pretty realistic about this problem. The complex
[1:48:29] Speaker 4: thing is that we can't trust our federal government to
[1:48:31] Speaker 4: solve this problem. Right, So, like I was saying earlier
[1:48:32] Speaker 4: about the federal government, if only, but I'm not recommending that.
[1:48:35] Speaker 4: I'm just saying we were not pretending over here. On
[1:48:38] Speaker 4: the one hand, like, yes, I think there should be
[1:48:40] Speaker 4: more oversight for these religious organizations and specifically cults, but
[1:48:44] Speaker 4: there's a lot of gray zone between a church, a culton,
[1:48:47] Speaker 4: and a religious organization, right, So what I don't actually
[1:48:51] Speaker 4: want is more involvement from the federal government than anything.
[1:48:55] Speaker 4: I don't think they'd be helpful. I also think they'd
[1:48:57] Speaker 4: all of a sudden start telling people what to do
[1:48:59] Speaker 4: and how they're live their life. And now they're the
[1:49:00] Speaker 4: call leader, so that's not helpful. Right Again, we have
[1:49:04] Speaker 4: like not understanding these problems. Doesn't mean there's always a
[1:49:08] Speaker 4: solution to every layer of every problem, but it helps
[1:49:12] Speaker 4: us understand what's not helpful, what would actually be helpful,
[1:49:16] Speaker 4: and possibly even identify like the low hanging fruit things
[1:49:20] Speaker 4: that we should start solving yesterday, right and then the
[1:49:23] Speaker 4: bigger things we can be working towards. So that's why
[1:49:27] Speaker 4: I believe, you know again, that's why I'm working with
[1:49:29] Speaker 4: tech giants to solve problems in the digital realm creating
[1:49:32] Speaker 4: proprietary technology. This stuff is super nerdy, but super exciting
[1:49:36] Speaker 4: if you want me to go over it. But the
[1:49:37] Speaker 4: short version is the most unlikely heroes, and I'm not talking,
[1:49:41] Speaker 4: you know, the big tech platforms have stepped up to
[1:49:44] Speaker 4: solve problems in a way that like nobody else has
[1:49:47] Speaker 4: certain ones actually just one, but anyway, they've made that
[1:49:50] Speaker 4: technology free to law enforcement. So that's been a whole
[1:49:53] Speaker 4: thing with helping to streamline things and make it more
[1:49:55] Speaker 4: accurate and you know, speed things up, et cetera. Anyway,
[1:49:58] Speaker 4: in the digital world, there's a lot going on. It's
[1:50:00] Speaker 4: very unregulated. There's a lot of solutions we the people
[1:50:03] Speaker 4: can and should implement. There's also a lot of really
[1:50:05] Speaker 4: stupid problems that shouldn't exist. You want me to name one,
[1:50:08] Speaker 4: see SAM, child sex abuse material. Let me just unpack
[1:50:12] Speaker 4: this soapbox as quickly as I can, because all right,
[1:50:15] Speaker 4: a lot of politicians, a lot of groups that call
[1:50:17] Speaker 4: themselves anti trafficking, and when they say like protect children
[1:50:22] Speaker 4: and stuff, they really are just have a religious bias
[1:50:27] Speaker 4: that makes them anti porn. And look, I'm not pro that.
[1:50:31] Speaker 4: I not my thing personally, don't care. Again, if you're
[1:50:35] Speaker 4: a grown ass adult do grown adult things, does not
[1:50:38] Speaker 4: bother me, right, don't hurt humans or animals like that's
[1:50:40] Speaker 4: my anyway. My whole thing is like, if you're antipe porn,
[1:50:46] Speaker 4: first of all, use the right words please. Also, if
[1:50:49] Speaker 4: you're not focused on child sex abuse material see SAM,
[1:50:52] Speaker 4: I don't use the word child pornography because for a
[1:50:55] Speaker 4: lot of reasons see Sam, it's already illegal. Nobody's going
[1:51:01] Speaker 4: to sit around debating the marriage of whether or not
[1:51:03] Speaker 4: it's morally okay, protactively harmful, already illegal rhetorical question, why
[1:51:09] Speaker 4: wouldn't we start there right? If you're raising tons of
[1:51:12] Speaker 4: money in the name of combating trafficking, but you're just
[1:51:14] Speaker 4: like poorn is bad and I'm very ashamed of my
[1:51:17] Speaker 4: addiction to it. If you're not actually solving problems, like
[1:51:20] Speaker 4: not only can I not take you seriously, but like
[1:51:22] Speaker 4: you're not even barking up the right tree in my opinion.
[1:51:24] Speaker 4: You're talking about protecting children, but then you're talking about
[1:51:26] Speaker 4: adult entertainment, which is a different conversation from child sex abuse,
[1:51:30] Speaker 4: material and exploitation. So if we can focus on what's
[1:51:33] Speaker 4: our ready illegal and also what technology exists already to
[1:51:38] Speaker 4: not only identify this stuff but to take it down.
[1:51:41] Speaker 4: Like I'm saving to a three hour dialogue here, but
[1:51:44] Speaker 4: this is possible, It exists. I believe it's intentional that
[1:51:47] Speaker 4: it's not implemented. If we were to see politicians making
[1:51:52] Speaker 4: more reasonable assumptions about the problems and solutions, I might
[1:51:55] Speaker 4: be able to take the words a little more seriously.
[1:51:57] Speaker 4: But we see a lot of misguid I call it
[1:52:01] Speaker 4: performative activism. A lot of people making millions of dollars
[1:52:06] Speaker 4: in the name of solving problems when they're just exploiting
[1:52:08] Speaker 4: the problem.
[1:52:10] Speaker 1: Right, I get that, what can normal people do to help?
[1:52:14] Speaker 1: And how can we be better at actually identifying situations
[1:52:20] Speaker 1: where we might be able to be helpful in.
[1:52:24] Speaker 4: It's a good question. Again, we need to sort of
[1:52:27] Speaker 4: narrow that down. One of the things I'm doing is
[1:52:28] Speaker 4: industry specific training. So let's take law enforcement, but I
[1:52:33] Speaker 4: also you know, programs for medical professionals, for teachers and educators,
[1:52:37] Speaker 4: for parents, et cetera, families for things like truckers, for
[1:52:41] Speaker 4: department you know, Department of Transportation, et cetera. Like there's
[1:52:45] Speaker 4: industry specific information I can give. If I'm staying broad,
[1:52:48] Speaker 4: then I'm going to stay broad in general awareness terms. Right,
[1:52:52] Speaker 4: that being said, for example, with law enforcement, let's choose
[1:52:56] Speaker 4: that one. I thought anyway, I have understood the need
[1:52:59] Speaker 4: for the fundamentals and how desperately just like the one
[1:53:03] Speaker 4: oh one is needed, right, And there's a lot more
[1:53:05] Speaker 4: we can go from there, But like, first we need
[1:53:07] Speaker 4: to correct the premise because if we're saying it's trafficking,
[1:53:10] Speaker 4: but we're actually going after sex workers, like we're doing
[1:53:15] Speaker 4: a disservice to the real victims. We're not allocating resources,
[1:53:18] Speaker 4: like we're causing more chaos and problems, and we're not
[1:53:20] Speaker 4: going you know, the real victims are not being helped.
[1:53:23] Speaker 4: So there's number one. Correcting the premis meaning take the
[1:53:26] Speaker 4: time to understand the problem. I'm not asking everyone to
[1:53:29] Speaker 4: understand every layer of the problem, but I'm saying, in
[1:53:32] Speaker 4: your community or industry, right, get to know the problem
[1:53:37] Speaker 4: that's not you know, that's pretty specific to what you do.
[1:53:40] Speaker 4: Let's take the tech world for example, or the social
[1:53:42] Speaker 4: media platforms we use, or your church or your school,
[1:53:45] Speaker 4: or your community or you know. I always tell people
[1:53:49] Speaker 4: go within five minute walk of your house and pick
[1:53:52] Speaker 4: five kids to protect and promise me it won't be them.
[1:53:56] Speaker 4: Like there's you know, there's a lot of information, but
[1:53:58] Speaker 4: at the asking people not to do nothing, I'm trying
[1:54:02] Speaker 4: to make it as simple as possible because it's you know,
[1:54:05] Speaker 4: I'm not asking for donations. I'm not asking you to
[1:54:07] Speaker 4: go dedicate your life. I'm saying start in your own
[1:54:10] Speaker 4: community because most of this starts at home. So like,
[1:54:13] Speaker 4: for God's sakes, please protect your children, right, I'm big
[1:54:15] Speaker 4: on digital safety. Let's not give the internet unlimited, unsupervised
[1:54:19] Speaker 4: access to our children. That'd be great. I do a
[1:54:22] Speaker 4: lot of undercover work and like, ooh, I could do
[1:54:24] Speaker 4: a whole three hours that's not even trafficking. But like,
[1:54:28] Speaker 4: kids are not okay with the things I see when
[1:54:30] Speaker 4: I'm pretending to be a child on the internet. That's
[1:54:34] Speaker 4: a whole thing. Kids cannot unsee that right once their
[1:54:37] Speaker 4: innocence is taken. I need people to take that much
[1:54:39] Speaker 4: more seriously. So there's a lot we can do on prevention.
[1:54:42] Speaker 4: There's a lot we can do to help our communities
[1:54:46] Speaker 4: understand the problem. So things like is you know law
[1:54:48] Speaker 4: enforcement getting trained to this, Are they actually going after
[1:54:51] Speaker 4: bad guys in our community? Have they not in a while?
[1:54:53] Speaker 4: We should make sure they know that's important to us,
[1:54:55] Speaker 4: and maybe put some pressure on them to make sure
[1:54:57] Speaker 4: they know that that's what we are going to vote
[1:54:59] Speaker 4: for or against. And if there's a DA or a
[1:55:02] Speaker 4: politician or sheriff, you know, whoever's in the way, like,
[1:55:04] Speaker 4: they also need to know that we the people are
[1:55:05] Speaker 4: not gonna go for that right. So I've been pretty
[1:55:09] Speaker 4: effective at a hashtag make them famous strategy, especially when
[1:55:12] Speaker 4: people who are in the way are going for re election,
[1:55:15] Speaker 4: and I want to make sure it's important that the
[1:55:17] Speaker 4: public knows if they're going to prosecute traffickers or not.
[1:55:20] Speaker 4: And I you know, make them say it on video.
[1:55:22] Speaker 4: And there's things that we can all do because like, look,
[1:55:26] Speaker 4: you notice, like I can't not be sarcastic, like I
[1:55:28] Speaker 4: do a lot of smiling and waving. I'm not gonna lie,
[1:55:31] Speaker 4: you know what I mean, can't really take it seriously
[1:55:33] Speaker 4: because like it's it's a really ridiculous problem that we
[1:55:36] Speaker 4: shouldn't have, right, But on a real note, like there
[1:55:39] Speaker 4: is so much that all of us can do to
[1:55:40] Speaker 4: be part of the solution for the avoidance of doubt.
[1:55:43] Speaker 4: Like I don't make money doing on this, doing any
[1:55:45] Speaker 4: of this. I'm not law enforcement. I don't have any
[1:55:48] Speaker 4: Like I survived a lot of sad things, like that's
[1:55:50] Speaker 4: my qualification, you know what I mean. I'm relentless about this.
[1:55:53] Speaker 4: I take no bullshit, you know what I mean, Like,
[1:55:55] Speaker 4: I just can't not do this. But the point is
[1:55:57] Speaker 4: that I don't have any special reason to be here
[1:56:00] Speaker 4: other than being intolerant of this evil. So I'm hoping
[1:56:02] Speaker 4: to be able to ignite more people that if I'm
[1:56:04] Speaker 4: out here doing it right, there's no excuse not to.
[1:56:07] Speaker 4: But there's also a lot of measurable results we can
[1:56:09] Speaker 4: get if we were to tailor our strategy to actually
[1:56:13] Speaker 4: be effective.
[1:56:15] Speaker 1: Sure, and in terms of getting politician, we're gonna say,
[1:56:20] Speaker 1: politician buy in?
[1:56:21] Speaker 4: Right?
[1:56:22] Speaker 1: How difficult because you're actually working with politicians. How difficult
[1:56:26] Speaker 1: is it to actually get contact with a politician and
[1:56:31] Speaker 1: even talk to him about this type of a thing.
[1:56:34] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not working with politicians. I'm a bully when
[1:56:38] Speaker 4: they're in the way. And I say that as a
[1:56:40] Speaker 4: teet smiley female. That's not any type of law enforcement, ETCeteras.
[1:56:43] Speaker 4: So I can say whatever I need to say, totally
[1:56:45] Speaker 4: serious anyway, Harris County as one of many examples, like
[1:56:50] Speaker 4: absolutely personal to me anyway, I just don't take no
[1:56:55] Speaker 4: for an answer. If that's the short version all again,
[1:56:59] Speaker 4: all of us can do that. Are they easy to
[1:57:00] Speaker 4: get a hold of? Are they eager to help? They
[1:57:02] Speaker 4: make pretty words? But no, they're not helpful, that's real direct, No,
[1:57:07] Speaker 4: absolutely not. What do they care about? Though? Do you
[1:57:10] Speaker 4: see how much I have to smile and wave? Like
[1:57:12] Speaker 4: how do you understand my sarcasm?
[1:57:13] Speaker 2: Now?
[1:57:13] Speaker 4: Like how creative I have to be to convince people
[1:57:17] Speaker 4: to protect children. Right, So, like Christians are a whole
[1:57:19] Speaker 4: other thing, because they'll try to a lot of them
[1:57:21] Speaker 4: will try to like debate and you know, deny and
[1:57:24] Speaker 4: not acknowledge, et cetera. Politicians they'll like say pretty things
[1:57:28] Speaker 4: to your face and you know, refer you to their
[1:57:31] Speaker 4: staffers business card and disappear and not hear from you again.
[1:57:35] Speaker 4: But you know, when people are unwilling to protect the innocent,
[1:57:39] Speaker 4: we can be pretty sure that they're cowards. No, I'm
[1:57:41] Speaker 4: not saying that to be tough. I'm saying that to
[1:57:43] Speaker 4: unpack yet another characteristic of predators because a lot of
[1:57:47] Speaker 4: people are held back by fear, and I guess I've
[1:57:51] Speaker 4: just overcome too much to let fear be an excuse.
[1:57:54] Speaker 4: But quite specifically, like I know the mindset of a predator,
[1:57:58] Speaker 4: I also know the mindset of a week pathetic coward
[1:58:00] Speaker 4: who take money to look the other way while children
[1:58:02] Speaker 4: are being harmed. I'm here to hold all of them accountable.
[1:58:07] Speaker 4: So while I look work with law enforcement, I've also
[1:58:10] Speaker 4: been a national whistleblower that has gone above local to
[1:58:14] Speaker 4: state law enforcement to help them and their investigations to
[1:58:17] Speaker 4: take down corrupt law enforcement with pride, and I make
[1:58:21] Speaker 4: sure that the law enforcement that I work with, right Like,
[1:58:24] Speaker 4: please understand, there's a lot that goes into these creative
[1:58:27] Speaker 4: strategies to solve problems. Here we are smiling and waving
[1:58:31] Speaker 4: through it, right like, Look, I'm wired for this mission.
[1:58:33] Speaker 4: I do actually like I enjoy it. I don't know,
[1:58:36] Speaker 4: like I'm it lights me up. It's there's amazing things
[1:58:40] Speaker 4: happening on a daily basis. There's also a lot of bullshit.
[1:58:42] Speaker 4: There's a lot of bullshit. But like, I'm just incredibly
[1:58:46] Speaker 4: unbothered by people who can't be bothered to protect children
[1:58:48] Speaker 4: or people who want to debate the merit of it,
[1:58:50] Speaker 4: or like tell me to forgive and not judge, and
[1:58:52] Speaker 4: you know, all these interesting things. The irony again with
[1:58:56] Speaker 4: my dark humor. Like I was born and raised in
[1:58:58] Speaker 4: a Christian cult. We used to have to me arise
[1:59:00] Speaker 4: entire chapters of the Bible. You can pick a language
[1:59:03] Speaker 4: and I can sing the Bible to you. So when Christians,
[1:59:07] Speaker 4: so when Christians are like you just need to read
[1:59:09] Speaker 4: your Bible or like you you know, have to accept
[1:59:11] Speaker 4: the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm like, well, the irony is
[1:59:14] Speaker 4: I've never met a Christian that knows the Bible better
[1:59:16] Speaker 4: than me, And like, again, it's not a flex. It's
[1:59:18] Speaker 4: just that I've had to like refer to script to
[1:59:21] Speaker 4: scripture to convince many Christians that it is important to
[1:59:25] Speaker 4: protect children, or that when Jesus said it would be
[1:59:27] Speaker 4: better to put a millstone around their neck and be
[1:59:29] Speaker 4: drowned in the bottom of sea, that he was actually
[1:59:31] Speaker 4: talking about children, not his church, his little ones.
[1:59:36] Speaker 2: The church.
[1:59:42] Speaker 3: Is a very I'm not going to use to use
[1:59:45] Speaker 3: that worse.
[1:59:46] Speaker 1: Sorry, Dave, I had to meet you.
[1:59:47] Speaker 2: I don't know you.
[1:59:48] Speaker 1: I don't know it's your audio audio.
[1:59:55] Speaker 4: H mm hmmm hm. Today and anyone else who believe me,
[2:00:02] Speaker 4: like my friends and family, can't believe that I'm like
[2:00:07] Speaker 4: anyway dealing with all of this because like, how could you?
[2:00:10] Speaker 4: That must be so triggering, and I'm like, like, honestly,
[2:00:13] Speaker 4: it's anyway. My dark humor finds it kind of funny.
[2:00:15] Speaker 4: But it's also let's call it ironic, right that here
[2:00:19] Speaker 4: I am like having to debate Christians on the Bible,
[2:00:22] Speaker 4: using the Bible to prove my points. Well, they make
[2:00:25] Speaker 4: all kinds of interesting excuses as to why we should
[2:00:28] Speaker 4: you know, forgive people that hurt children. When Jesus's recommendation
[2:00:32] Speaker 4: was the millstone, which I find quite intense and quite permanent. Right,
[2:00:36] Speaker 4: So obviously nobody's actually going to go putting millstones on
[2:00:39] Speaker 4: people's neck like most things in the Bible, it's not
[2:00:42] Speaker 4: actually how that works. But I do find that threat
[2:00:47] Speaker 4: pretty significant because again it's quite intense and it's very permanent,
[2:00:51] Speaker 4: and it was the one time in the Bible Jesus
[2:00:53] Speaker 4: didn't talk about forgiveness and peace and love. I actually
[2:00:55] Speaker 4: tell that this is my this is this is actually
[2:00:57] Speaker 4: what I say to Christians that are trying to debate this.
[2:00:58] Speaker 4: I'm like, there are two times in the Bible that
[2:01:00] Speaker 4: Jesus was pretty gangster. It was the one time he
[2:01:03] Speaker 4: went to church as an adult and I let there
[2:01:06] Speaker 4: be awkward silence and he flipped tables and kicked ass.
[2:01:09] Speaker 4: And then it was the time that he talked about
[2:01:10] Speaker 4: protecting children and be better to put a mills around
[2:01:12] Speaker 4: her neck can be drowned the bob and see, than
[2:01:13] Speaker 4: to offend a child. Like I think that's some gangster shit,
[2:01:16] Speaker 4: that's some cartel as threats, like bro, he you know
[2:01:19] Speaker 4: what I mean. He was like don't let me catch
[2:01:20] Speaker 4: you offending a child. That was the one time he
[2:01:23] Speaker 4: did not talk about forgiveness or peace and love. And
[2:01:25] Speaker 4: he was like, and that verse. You can tell I've
[2:01:28] Speaker 4: really had to dig into this Bible here anyway, it's
[2:01:30] Speaker 4: like fifteen years since. Wooh, here we are. That verse
[2:01:34] Speaker 4: is repeated in the New Testament three times. So the
[2:01:37] Speaker 4: irony here right beyond all the other verses that I'm
[2:01:40] Speaker 4: sure you know about, like the merit of children and
[2:01:43] Speaker 4: their innocence and why we should protect them, beyond the
[2:01:45] Speaker 4: logic we should all have and not even need scripture
[2:01:47] Speaker 4: to back us up to protect children.
[2:01:48] Speaker 2: But here we go.
[2:01:49] Speaker 4: The Bible's very clear. Jesus himself was very clear about
[2:01:52] Speaker 4: protecting children and permanent consequences for those who offend them,
[2:01:56] Speaker 4: not like violate or defile, offend them. Okay, the Bible's
[2:02:00] Speaker 4: not clear about I mean, there's steth things, going to
[2:02:05] Speaker 4: church on Sunday, accepting the Lord Jesus Christ. That's a
[2:02:09] Speaker 4: whole other thing. The word lord was not originally in
[2:02:11] Speaker 4: the original text. That's a whole other thing. Anyway. There's
[2:02:15] Speaker 4: all these things that many most Christians obsess over that
[2:02:18] Speaker 4: are very much not instructed in the Bible, for example,
[2:02:21] Speaker 4: says how be it the most high to wealth? Not
[2:02:22] Speaker 4: in temples made with hands?
[2:02:23] Speaker 2: Right?
[2:02:24] Speaker 4: Anyway, The point is, I just I find it interesting that,
[2:02:29] Speaker 4: you know, we really have to be so creative in
[2:02:31] Speaker 4: trying to compel people to not only do their part,
[2:02:33] Speaker 4: but to be part of the solution in their own community.
[2:02:36] Speaker 4: Really shouldn't be that complicated. So I appreciate you hosting
[2:02:40] Speaker 4: this message. You know there's a lot more to it,
[2:02:42] Speaker 4: but I'm here to make it very uncomfortable for people
[2:02:45] Speaker 4: to continue doing nothing, especially the people that are aware
[2:02:48] Speaker 4: of harm happening in their communities. I'm here to make
[2:02:52] Speaker 4: it impossible for them to get away with it.
[2:02:54] Speaker 1: So that's a good point, because I think awareness is
[2:02:57] Speaker 1: awareness is difficult, so you have to be all to
[2:03:01] Speaker 1: identify it before you can address it. Are there warning signs?
[2:03:07] Speaker 1: Like are there indicators that it's going on?
[2:03:12] Speaker 4: So again, it depends on the situation. Like I'm not
[2:03:14] Speaker 4: trying to be long winded, it's just it's not a
[2:03:16] Speaker 4: one size fits all problem. There's not a one size
[2:03:18] Speaker 4: fits all solution. I'd have to narrow it down to
[2:03:21] Speaker 4: let's say, industries or situations or experiences in my tiktoks
[2:03:25] Speaker 4: and like different the actual training I do. Like the
[2:03:27] Speaker 4: TikTok is just kind of me running my mouth, but
[2:03:30] Speaker 4: I do a lot of like awareness specific to for example,
[2:03:33] Speaker 4: for you know, airports and you know airline staff, et cetera,
[2:03:37] Speaker 4: for medical professionals, for teachers, for truckers. So I talk
[2:03:39] Speaker 4: about red flags and what to do. But it's, of
[2:03:42] Speaker 4: course it's in a general outline format, meaning I can't
[2:03:46] Speaker 4: give you the exact script, right, the oversimplified. Let me
[2:03:51] Speaker 4: expand on that real quick, because it's going to be
[2:03:53] Speaker 4: a different you know, best practice. If you're talking about
[2:03:57] Speaker 4: like you're out you know at my deta gas station
[2:03:59] Speaker 4: versus like neighbor, who's you think they're trafficking their kid?
[2:04:03] Speaker 4: Or you know what I mean. There's different things to
[2:04:05] Speaker 4: look for. There's different pattern analysis and behavior stuff. So
[2:04:08] Speaker 4: it's hard to nail that out in a nutshell. But
[2:04:10] Speaker 4: that's why I do training. But here's one of the things,
[2:04:13] Speaker 4: like something more helpful and very general that can be
[2:04:16] Speaker 4: generally applied. I give this analogy, like if you're out
[2:04:19] Speaker 4: in a public space. Let's say that I'm at an airport, Okay,
[2:04:22] Speaker 4: but he's smiley, female and not asking anyone to kick
[2:04:24] Speaker 4: down doors and get bad guys. It's not that heroic. Okay,
[2:04:27] Speaker 4: Let's say you're in some public place. Generally, it's not
[2:04:30] Speaker 4: going to be as obvious as you and I would
[2:04:33] Speaker 4: like it to be. That's number one. Not going to
[2:04:36] Speaker 4: be a kid who looks hungry and dirty on side
[2:04:38] Speaker 4: of the road. Okay. So let's say you're at an
[2:04:40] Speaker 4: airport and you see a couple adults with a few kids,
[2:04:42] Speaker 4: and they don't look like they belong. They look like
[2:04:47] Speaker 4: We can get real into pattern analysis, but I'm going
[2:04:49] Speaker 4: to keep prety summarized life. We can look at body
[2:04:51] Speaker 4: language and energy and nervousness and sweating and all these
[2:04:53] Speaker 4: different indicators of what's going on, that they're nervous or
[2:04:56] Speaker 4: that something is off. We can look at the body
[2:04:58] Speaker 4: language of the kids. Is like, there's an initial pattern
[2:05:02] Speaker 4: analysis that we can do. But here's why what I
[2:05:05] Speaker 4: as a petitz myile female who would not be armed
[2:05:07] Speaker 4: in this case because I just pass security. Right, This
[2:05:09] Speaker 4: is what I tell what I recommend people, what I
[2:05:12] Speaker 4: would do if I were me, I were there, So
[2:05:16] Speaker 4: if you're not sure, right, because you see something that's off,
[2:05:18] Speaker 4: but I can't just call the cops and be like,
[2:05:19] Speaker 4: there are something that looks weird. Okay, bye, that's not
[2:05:21] Speaker 4: actionable as far as a report, right. What I recommend
[2:05:24] Speaker 4: people do, Sorry, it's my bob. Do you hear that
[2:05:30] Speaker 4: you have? What I recommend do is literally play dumb
[2:05:36] Speaker 4: and ask questions. So let's say I see something that
[2:05:39] Speaker 4: looks off. I'm not quite sure there's you know, I've
[2:05:41] Speaker 4: recognized some things, but it just looks off. There's going
[2:05:44] Speaker 4: to be a gut instinct. Number One, I want people
[2:05:46] Speaker 4: to listen to it. Number two, The play dumb and
[2:05:48] Speaker 4: ask questions mean I'm going to play down and be
[2:05:50] Speaker 4: a chatty Kathy, and I'm going to approach in a
[2:05:53] Speaker 4: non threatening way, and I'm going to ask totally normal
[2:05:56] Speaker 4: questions like I'm going to pretend to be lost, or
[2:05:59] Speaker 4: I'm looking for a pizza place, or I don't know
[2:06:01] Speaker 4: where about a terminal whatever. Okay, you're getting closer and
[2:06:06] Speaker 4: you're collecting data. So as I get closer to them,
[2:06:08] Speaker 4: now I have better descriptors of their eye colors and
[2:06:10] Speaker 4: what they sound like and what it b but bah
[2:06:12] Speaker 4: their luggage, what does it look like they're doing? Are
[2:06:14] Speaker 4: there you know, international or domestic terminals. Are they warm
[2:06:17] Speaker 4: clothes or cold clothes, et cetera. I have much more information,
[2:06:21] Speaker 4: but I'm also monitoring their response to my questions. Right,
[2:06:25] Speaker 4: So if I'm in a non threatening way approaching them
[2:06:28] Speaker 4: and asking totally normal questions, right, if I'm like, hey, guys,
[2:06:31] Speaker 4: I'm so sorry, I'm so tired, and I don't know
[2:06:32] Speaker 4: anything about the airport? Do you know where this terminal is?
[2:06:35] Speaker 3: Right?
[2:06:35] Speaker 4: And if they're just like, I'm sorry, we don't know.
[2:06:38] Speaker 4: Like if they're just normal, right, okay, maybe not a
[2:06:41] Speaker 4: red flag or the opposite. If they're like oh, if
[2:06:44] Speaker 4: they get more nervous, they don't want to engage in
[2:06:47] Speaker 4: a normal human way for the situation, right, if they
[2:06:50] Speaker 4: don't want you to talk to the kids, if they
[2:06:51] Speaker 4: kind of brush the kids, get between you and the kids. Like,
[2:06:53] Speaker 4: there's body language indicators. Think of it like a flow.
[2:06:56] Speaker 4: Try right, If this then that, like, okay, something else, Okay,
[2:07:00] Speaker 4: more questions. I'm going to act more just lost and clueless.
[2:07:04] Speaker 4: I'm gonna like blah blah blah blah blah bah blahlah.
[2:07:06] Speaker 4: And I see them getting more and more stressed and
[2:07:08] Speaker 4: trying to leave and try to distance, to try to right.
[2:07:12] Speaker 4: One thing that I tell people, because again I can't
[2:07:14] Speaker 4: give you a script. It really depends on what's happening
[2:07:16] Speaker 4: and using your best judgment, right. But one thing I
[2:07:19] Speaker 4: ask people is if you can work into your happy
[2:07:22] Speaker 4: chatty conversation something about to the kids, again, assuming they're
[2:07:26] Speaker 4: like of an age where they can talk and respond right,
[2:07:29] Speaker 4: something about like, oh my god, you guys are going
[2:07:31] Speaker 4: in a trip. Oh that's so fun. I'm going to
[2:07:32] Speaker 4: see my sister. I'm so excited.
[2:07:34] Speaker 2: Are you guys going somewhere fun?
[2:07:35] Speaker 4: Are you guys excited? Something about are you excited? And
[2:07:40] Speaker 4: I'll unpackway. Normally, kids in these very controlled environments are
[2:07:44] Speaker 4: heavily scripted, heavily scripted, right, we're going with our aunts.
[2:07:48] Speaker 4: So again, when you're asking the kid normal question, if
[2:07:50] Speaker 4: they're responding in a very robotic scripted way like a
[2:07:54] Speaker 4: very again, fear in their eyes and all these other indicators,
[2:07:58] Speaker 4: that's not normal. That doesn't mean we know what's going on,
[2:08:00] Speaker 4: but we're like, ooh, something's off. That's where flowchart like,
[2:08:03] Speaker 4: keep asking questions, et cetera, keep collecting data. So let's
[2:08:06] Speaker 4: say they're like, are you guys excited? Right? Often a
[2:08:11] Speaker 4: kid generally won't have a script for that, so you
[2:08:13] Speaker 4: might see them kind of blank face, like look at
[2:08:15] Speaker 4: the adult like I don't you know, like just an
[2:08:18] Speaker 4: response to handle that. Yeah, it's very difficult for a
[2:08:23] Speaker 4: kid to fake excitement because even if they're like, yes,
[2:08:26] Speaker 4: we're very excited, you know what I mean? Like, even
[2:08:28] Speaker 4: if they respond we're not. Okay. We're not fixating on
[2:08:31] Speaker 4: the words as much as the energy or the read
[2:08:35] Speaker 4: of the situation. Now again, oh this again, I'm trying
[2:08:39] Speaker 4: to keep it summarized. There's a lot here. A child
[2:08:42] Speaker 4: often doesn't know they're being abused, So we're not asking
[2:08:46] Speaker 4: questions assuming the child's going to be like help me,
[2:08:48] Speaker 4: I'm being traffic like that's not going to happen. That's
[2:08:50] Speaker 4: not going to happen. Okay. We're not looking for the
[2:08:53] Speaker 4: perfect world word or like a hand signal like stop.
[2:08:58] Speaker 4: We are under the problem so that we can use
[2:09:02] Speaker 4: our best judgment and ensure our solutions are actually effective. Now,
[2:09:07] Speaker 4: let's pretend you've assessed the situation. You've talked with them
[2:09:09] Speaker 4: as long as you can. Now they're just like leading
[2:09:12] Speaker 4: like they're there. You can't Okay, You're done. Have a
[2:09:15] Speaker 4: lot of data. Now at the very least, you can
[2:09:18] Speaker 4: report it to all the authorities and have thorough descriptions
[2:09:22] Speaker 4: and a lot more accurate information, a lot more stuff
[2:09:24] Speaker 4: to go off of, right versus just there something weird
[2:09:28] Speaker 4: a guy with a girl and I don't know, okay,
[2:09:29] Speaker 4: by like, nothing's going to happen with that report right.
[2:09:33] Speaker 4: Another thing again, I'm trying to keep a summarized but like,
[2:09:35] Speaker 4: often there's a need to follow up on these situations
[2:09:37] Speaker 4: because very often these situations are improperly handled, if at all.
[2:09:42] Speaker 4: So you know, if this is something you may never
[2:09:44] Speaker 4: come across again, it makes it more difficult than if
[2:09:46] Speaker 4: it's in your actual community like your church, school, neighborhood,
[2:09:50] Speaker 4: et cetera. That's something you can I recommend check on
[2:09:53] Speaker 4: and follow up on and make sure right now in
[2:09:56] Speaker 4: the meantime. Now again, maybe it's familial trafficking and that
[2:10:00] Speaker 4: it is not in a good place. Chill, can you
[2:10:03] Speaker 4: help the kid in the meantime, you know what I mean? Like,
[2:10:05] Speaker 4: what can you do to help? Anyway? Lots of stories.
[2:10:08] Speaker 4: I could tell lots more examples of this, but like
[2:10:11] Speaker 4: it's probably easier than people think. It's probably less heroic
[2:10:15] Speaker 4: and movie like than people think. It's a lot more practical,
[2:10:18] Speaker 4: you know what I mean. But I'm asking people to
[2:10:21] Speaker 4: start at home for those reasons.
[2:10:23] Speaker 1: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Where are the
[2:10:28] Speaker 1: where where are children most likely to be in danger?
[2:10:35] Speaker 1: That's a broad question.
[2:10:37] Speaker 4: Yeah, okay. One of the one of the most difficult
[2:10:41] Speaker 4: things is that there's either not data like correctly taken.
[2:10:45] Speaker 4: It's very underreported, Like we really don't have accurate references.
[2:10:49] Speaker 4: So I could I could probably name like some categories
[2:10:55] Speaker 4: of where you know, like the highest reported trafficking cases. Right,
[2:10:59] Speaker 4: But again, I mean, you know, it's sad, But there's
[2:11:02] Speaker 4: the similar statistic most women are unalived in their home
[2:11:06] Speaker 4: by their husband, right, that's the main threat to women's safety.
[2:11:11] Speaker 4: For children, I can't prove the statistic, but I think
[2:11:14] Speaker 4: the home might also apply. Not to say every home
[2:11:17] Speaker 4: is unsafe, but to say a lot of children are
[2:11:20] Speaker 4: being exploited in their homes, right, sometimes in private. A
[2:11:24] Speaker 4: lot of times there's like things that the neighbors know
[2:11:27] Speaker 4: about that everyone's just minding their own business and too
[2:11:30] Speaker 4: afraid to intervene. So, you know, we liked we could
[2:11:34] Speaker 4: name things like there's the border, there's transportation, routes, right,
[2:11:39] Speaker 4: but like I would, let me put it this way,
[2:11:41] Speaker 4: to make it the most practical for civilians. Right, we're
[2:11:45] Speaker 4: not military operators, et cetera. So what we are most
[2:11:48] Speaker 4: likely to encounter. I want people to focus on their
[2:11:51] Speaker 4: own community for a lot of reasons, because I don't
[2:11:53] Speaker 4: think you have to look very far. I think you
[2:11:55] Speaker 4: know the most about your own community. So you know
[2:11:57] Speaker 4: the patterns and the baseline and what should know. You
[2:12:00] Speaker 4: know a lot about it and the people and who's
[2:12:02] Speaker 4: running what, et cetera. You can follow up on stuff,
[2:12:04] Speaker 4: et cetera. It just makes it more practical, and it
[2:12:06] Speaker 4: makes us all much more you know, responsible for our communities.
[2:12:10] Speaker 4: I have this crazy idea that we could, we the
[2:12:13] Speaker 4: people at our federal government, we the people, could create
[2:12:16] Speaker 4: a culture where our communities are intolerant to people who
[2:12:20] Speaker 4: hurt children. That's unfortunately baseline, isn't it.
[2:12:26] Speaker 1: I mean that should be the case our generation. Sorry,
[2:12:30] Speaker 1: that should be the case.
[2:12:36] Speaker 4: Yeah. So you know, within within various realms of our society,
[2:12:40] Speaker 4: we have different types of problem. But I just want
[2:12:42] Speaker 4: to help people understand, like there's not one way it happens,
[2:12:45] Speaker 4: one way it looks. One type of predator or industry
[2:12:48] Speaker 4: or top five or you know, there's there's different patterns
[2:12:51] Speaker 4: in different communities. There are different more general, like broader
[2:12:54] Speaker 4: patterns we could lay out, and I do a lot
[2:12:56] Speaker 4: about like unpacking the characteristics of predators mentally as well
[2:13:01] Speaker 4: as just kind of the overall framework that supports them.
[2:13:06] Speaker 4: And again, you know, awareness reduces the predator's ability to operate.
[2:13:11] Speaker 4: You didn't ask this question, but I reference the ten
[2:13:13] Speaker 4: Rules of Every Cult and this is something I wrote.
[2:13:16] Speaker 4: It's not very long at all. It's an interesting pattern
[2:13:20] Speaker 4: recognition list that don't ask why it was late at
[2:13:24] Speaker 4: night and I wrote this down like all at once,
[2:13:27] Speaker 4: late one night. That's how my brain is. Anyway. I've
[2:13:29] Speaker 4: run it by a lot of experts and I haven't
[2:13:32] Speaker 4: had anyone add anything to it because it's a pretty
[2:13:35] Speaker 4: it's pretty good list, all right. So this is the
[2:13:37] Speaker 4: ten rules of every Cult. I want people to also
[2:13:39] Speaker 4: think about how this applies to other patterns in our
[2:13:41] Speaker 4: society today. Number one rule, They must not know cults
[2:13:45] Speaker 4: have layers. There's always an outer public layer, like a
[2:13:48] Speaker 4: corporate brochure version. We're happy, smiling people and we love
[2:13:51] Speaker 4: Jesus and everything's fine. We're totally not a cult. There's
[2:13:54] Speaker 4: always the public version and then there's what's actually happening
[2:13:57] Speaker 4: on the inside that maybe only leadership truly knows about.
[2:14:01] Speaker 4: But you earn your place there. Number two. Rule it
[2:14:04] Speaker 4: is written, take it by faith. Number three. We are
[2:14:08] Speaker 4: the only ones who are right. Number four we make
[2:14:12] Speaker 4: our own rules. Whatever is done in love is love,
[2:14:15] Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Number five, This is what's best.
[2:14:19] Speaker 4: This is God's highest will. This is the best way
[2:14:21] Speaker 4: I could raise you. We're so privileged to be His
[2:14:23] Speaker 4: chosen whatever. Number six is recruit full stop. Number seven,
[2:14:28] Speaker 4: you must earn your place. Participation is not optional. Again,
[2:14:33] Speaker 4: my parents were leadership. My mother whatever the point is, like,
[2:14:37] Speaker 4: I was raised around this cult, within a cult where
[2:14:39] Speaker 4: the rules didn't apply to them, and they had all
[2:14:41] Speaker 4: the stuff they got away with. But they're still playing
[2:14:43] Speaker 4: the ponds for the donation, you know, the whole Pyramids game.
[2:14:45] Speaker 4: Thing like that applies to a lot of realms in
[2:14:48] Speaker 4: society today. Number eight is support by whatever means necessary.
[2:14:52] Speaker 4: For most of them, financial contributions are the priority, and
[2:14:55] Speaker 4: those who give the most money have the most freedom
[2:14:58] Speaker 4: or power within the cult. Don't apply Number nine dedication
[2:15:02] Speaker 4: do whatever it takes, even for saking friends and family,
[2:15:05] Speaker 4: making incredible sacrifices and enduring endless pain and discomfort. Number ten.
[2:15:11] Speaker 4: If you're not for us, you're against us. That is
[2:15:16] Speaker 4: a pattern that applies to many realms of society. And again,
[2:15:20] Speaker 4: to reverse engineer these problems, we have to understand the
[2:15:24] Speaker 4: problems and how they affect people, especially if we're trying
[2:15:28] Speaker 4: to help rescue people from them, or help them heal
[2:15:31] Speaker 4: from that, or prevent this from happening, or identify predators
[2:15:34] Speaker 4: in our communities, or make our communities intolerant to the
[2:15:38] Speaker 4: infrastructures that support these predators.
[2:15:42] Speaker 1: Sure, and what can we what can we do to
[2:15:45] Speaker 1: help support your work?
[2:15:49] Speaker 4: I really appreciate that question. I do have a nonprofit.
[2:15:51] Speaker 4: It's Digital Defenders United dot org. It's a five oh
[2:15:54] Speaker 4: one C three. I don't use it for fundraising, like
[2:15:56] Speaker 4: I fund everything myself. Right now, we are, it's actually
[2:16:00] Speaker 4: really exciting. There's some things I'll talk about in a
[2:16:03] Speaker 4: few months once they're more solidified, but we're working on okay.
[2:16:06] Speaker 4: I do a lot of law enforcement training to help
[2:16:08] Speaker 4: people identify and combat this issue. Set up sting operations
[2:16:11] Speaker 4: and investigations, take down bad guys like Soup to Nuts
[2:16:14] Speaker 4: actually take action and actually help children. Then you know,
[2:16:17] Speaker 4: the rescue opts, et cetera, vetting the safe houses. So
[2:16:20] Speaker 4: if you have contacts in any realm of government, or
[2:16:23] Speaker 4: if you want to make sure you're mayor like, let's
[2:16:26] Speaker 4: hold people accountable, let's connect with the right people that
[2:16:28] Speaker 4: are actually solutions oriented. You can reach them out my website,
[2:16:31] Speaker 4: Digital Defenders United dot org. The other aspect of that, though,
[2:16:34] Speaker 4: is that I'm working with some really badass people to
[2:16:36] Speaker 4: roll out some really powerful training that we want to
[2:16:39] Speaker 4: make sure that it stays free, especially for law enforcement.
[2:16:42] Speaker 4: But like that is actually helpful and constantly updated. It's
[2:16:45] Speaker 4: also got a reporting aspect of it, et cetera. So
[2:16:48] Speaker 4: I'm working on some bigger picture things. So you know,
[2:16:51] Speaker 4: again like nobody takes a salary. This isn't about you know,
[2:16:54] Speaker 4: this is about solving problems, but it's also about uniting
[2:16:57] Speaker 4: the experts that actually are here to solve problem that
[2:17:00] Speaker 4: know what they're talking about. And there's there's a lot
[2:17:03] Speaker 4: of there's a lot of groundwork happening for some big change.
[2:17:07] Speaker 4: I'm personally focused on the tech world for digital solutions
[2:17:11] Speaker 4: as well as preventions, and et cetera. The law enforcement
[2:17:14] Speaker 4: training realm because that's just so needed. And then oh,
[2:17:18] Speaker 4: that's not my website, it's Digital Defenders United dot org.
[2:17:21] Speaker 1: Oh United, Yes.
[2:17:25] Speaker 4: And then also anyway, education for different realms of society,
[2:17:28] Speaker 4: like I was talking about, you know, medical experts and
[2:17:31] Speaker 4: you know hotel staff and er nurses, like there's all
[2:17:34] Speaker 4: these different sectors of society that really need specialized training.
[2:17:37] Speaker 4: So again, I think knowledge is power, but only when
[2:17:40] Speaker 4: we're willing to do something with it. So it's not
[2:17:42] Speaker 4: just about like awareness, it's about understanding this problem and
[2:17:45] Speaker 4: creating and implemating implementing effective solutions.
[2:17:50] Speaker 1: That's excellent. So you guys do have a nonprofit setup?
[2:17:54] Speaker 1: Is it going to be linked to your website? Linked
[2:17:55] Speaker 1: to your website?
[2:17:57] Speaker 4: That is my website. That's my nonprofit, Digital Vendors United.
[2:18:00] Speaker 4: I'm the founder. You can check out my board of
[2:18:02] Speaker 4: advisors and you know the different stuff we do. It's
[2:18:05] Speaker 4: pretty it's public facing, it's you know, there's actually a
[2:18:08] Speaker 4: lot of education on there about digital safety and there's
[2:18:11] Speaker 4: a whole like checklist of Internet safety tools and stuff.
[2:18:14] Speaker 4: So it's an informative website. But like, of course we
[2:18:16] Speaker 4: can't always talk about the real work that we really do.
[2:18:20] Speaker 4: I work at I can't say the whole logo, but
[2:18:22] Speaker 4: it's at the Ranch Texas. It's a law enforcement and
[2:18:24] Speaker 4: government training facility in South Texas. We do a lot
[2:18:27] Speaker 4: of different training programs and all the things. We have
[2:18:31] Speaker 4: some programs for civilians. But the point is it's a
[2:18:34] Speaker 4: very cool environment. We are one hour south sorry, one
[2:18:36] Speaker 4: hour north of the border, one hour south of San Antonio.
[2:18:40] Speaker 4: So needless to say, there's a lot of activity and
[2:18:43] Speaker 4: a lot of work to do. So yeah, if people
[2:18:46] Speaker 4: want to know more, like just let me know how
[2:18:48] Speaker 4: they can help or how they want to help. And
[2:18:51] Speaker 4: you know, I really encourage people, though, to start in
[2:18:54] Speaker 4: your community. Like if everyone watching this picked five children
[2:18:57] Speaker 4: that they promised to protect and promised me it would
[2:18:59] Speaker 4: be them, we could change the statistics absolutely absolutely.
[2:19:05] Speaker 1: So I want to encourage everyone to check out Digital
[2:19:08] Speaker 1: Defenders United. And it sounds like the Ranch Texas.
[2:19:11] Speaker 4: I don't know anything about the Ranch. The Ranch is
[2:19:14] Speaker 4: a really cool place. The owners is a very good
[2:19:17] Speaker 4: friend of mine, really good picture people here and from
[2:19:20] Speaker 4: day one they've always been like, how can we help
[2:19:22] Speaker 4: with the mission. That website is Ranch TX dot org.
[2:19:26] Speaker 4: The ranch, So anyway, it's got. This place has a
[2:19:29] Speaker 4: lot of history for those about it. Used to be
[2:19:33] Speaker 4: it t I, Blackwater, et cetera. So this place has
[2:19:38] Speaker 4: a very rich history and the location of it, being
[2:19:40] Speaker 4: an hour north of the Lareda border, is quite an
[2:19:43] Speaker 4: interesting zone.
[2:19:44] Speaker 1: If you will, Okay, let me see if I can
[2:19:51] Speaker 1: get their website up. They do have a website.
[2:19:56] Speaker 4: Yeah, RANCHTX dot org.
[2:20:00] Speaker 1: And yeah, that's it.
[2:20:03] Speaker 4: See, I'm I'm commenting with my nonprofit if it lets me.
[2:20:10] Speaker 1: I can. If you send me a link, I'll make
[2:20:12] Speaker 1: sure to link your nonprofit in the description of the
[2:20:15] Speaker 1: video as well so people can get access to it.
[2:20:19] Speaker 4: Cool. I love that. I appreciate it. Yeah, we do
[2:20:22] Speaker 4: a lot of different types of you know, tactics training,
[2:20:24] Speaker 4: medical first responders, law enforcement, all the things. A lot
[2:20:27] Speaker 4: of different military branches, government agencies, et cetera, et cetera.
[2:20:30] Speaker 4: So it's quite an interesting mix of individuals to say
[2:20:32] Speaker 4: the least. And uh, you know, definitely a lot of
[2:20:35] Speaker 4: interesting fireside chats that have it resulted in some really
[2:20:38] Speaker 4: cool collaborations and just like, look, one hundred percent of
[2:20:42] Speaker 4: the type of protectors to train here are the type
[2:20:44] Speaker 4: that would protect children for fun and for free. This
[2:20:48] Speaker 4: is kind of a side note, but like service I've
[2:20:49] Speaker 4: never served, et cetera, a huge respect. Service members have
[2:20:52] Speaker 4: always been my people, both because like we can share
[2:20:55] Speaker 4: the dark, humor and last, but also because like we're
[2:20:58] Speaker 4: very action oriented. I can call it a trauma response.
[2:21:02] Speaker 4: That's fine. I think there's a lot of redemption though.
[2:21:05] Speaker 4: You know, a big part of PTSD and CPTSD and
[2:21:07] Speaker 4: things like that is the shame that people shouldn't have
[2:21:10] Speaker 4: to carry for what you did or didn't do in
[2:21:13] Speaker 4: the past, for the things we can't forgive and forget. Right,
[2:21:16] Speaker 4: So when those service members are able to utilize their
[2:21:18] Speaker 4: training and skills to actually help people protect children in
[2:21:22] Speaker 4: our country, right, it's an honor. But it can also
[2:21:25] Speaker 4: be a very healing process of redemption. For me personally,
[2:21:30] Speaker 4: I call it retribution and I wish this retribution on
[2:21:33] Speaker 4: every survivor.
[2:21:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, we can thank you so much for spending time
[2:21:39] Speaker 1: with me. I've got a couple of chats from the audience,
[2:21:44] Speaker 1: so I'm going to put a couple up and if
[2:21:46] Speaker 1: you have questions for Kim that we didn't get to,
[2:21:49] Speaker 1: you're welcome to throw them into the supers side says,
[2:21:54] Speaker 1: what great information. Thanks for all you do. That's for you, Kim,
[2:21:57] Speaker 1: not for me. They already know what I do. Thank
[2:22:00] Speaker 1: you very much. And Jerk says, thank you for doing this.
[2:22:05] Speaker 1: Thank you to Kim and other guests before. It's difficult
[2:22:09] Speaker 1: to listen to it times. I'm sure it's hard for
[2:22:11] Speaker 1: the guests to talk about it. It's very important to
[2:22:13] Speaker 1: have these conversations. And I could be wrong, but I
[2:22:17] Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons why so many people
[2:22:19] Speaker 1: don't know. It's because they kind of are difficult conversations.
[2:22:23] Speaker 1: Have you found that there are survivors that struggle to
[2:22:26] Speaker 1: talk about what they went through?
[2:22:29] Speaker 4: Oh, for sure, I would say most, like it's actually
[2:22:31] Speaker 4: pretty rare that someone wants to and myself included, like
[2:22:34] Speaker 4: I really didn't want to. It took me a couple
[2:22:36] Speaker 4: of years of trying to get everyone else to. Anyway,
[2:22:39] Speaker 4: this is on a personal note, like it was actually
[2:22:41] Speaker 4: extremely triggering to be on camera and I had to
[2:22:43] Speaker 4: overcome that because I tried to get everyone else and
[2:22:46] Speaker 4: it wasn't happening. Will settle that being said, yeah, I
[2:22:51] Speaker 4: would say most don't want to speak out. There's also
[2:22:54] Speaker 4: a lot of survivors that are silenced and threatened and
[2:22:57] Speaker 4: all this kind of you know, weaponized manipulation. Again, I've
[2:23:00] Speaker 4: definitely experienced that fun fact from churches and the religious nonprofits,
[2:23:04] Speaker 4: especially the Christian ones that call themselves anti trafficking but
[2:23:07] Speaker 4: are really just exploiting the problem. Yeah, I've exposed a
[2:23:11] Speaker 4: lot of corrupt organizations and cults and anyway, I just
[2:23:15] Speaker 4: have this, you know, pretty fearless about it. I guess
[2:23:18] Speaker 4: I've just overcome a lot of evil that I'm not
[2:23:19] Speaker 4: scared of it. Right, But everyone's in a different place
[2:23:23] Speaker 4: and they're healing journey. It's not a one size fits all,
[2:23:25] Speaker 4: you know, healing method or best practice or whatever. It's
[2:23:28] Speaker 4: really about the individualized experience. And I have this theory, right,
[2:23:32] Speaker 4: It's a pretty harsh one, but I'm allowed to say it.
[2:23:35] Speaker 4: I believe healing is a choice. Never makes it easy.
[2:23:38] Speaker 4: That means it's our personal choice. That means it's our power,
[2:23:42] Speaker 4: and that means we don't have to wait for the
[2:23:43] Speaker 4: people who broke us to fix us or to apologize
[2:23:47] Speaker 4: or say the perfect worlds. It also means we're the
[2:23:50] Speaker 4: only one who can decide to heal, and the extent
[2:23:53] Speaker 4: to which we allow ourselves to heal. Now that's a journey. Unfortunately,
[2:23:58] Speaker 4: there's not necessarily a finish line. It's definitely not a
[2:24:00] Speaker 4: linear ooh, we're done process rights. It can be all
[2:24:04] Speaker 4: kinds of things, but it doesn't have to mean suffering.
[2:24:07] Speaker 4: It can actually mean finding peace and happiness and joy.
[2:24:10] Speaker 4: For some people, that can mean spending time and nature
[2:24:13] Speaker 4: and just finding yourself. For many people, it can mean,
[2:24:17] Speaker 4: you know, just focusing on your kids and work and
[2:24:19] Speaker 4: living a good life and being a good person. For me,
[2:24:22] Speaker 4: and for many it means fighting back in addition to
[2:24:25] Speaker 4: this joy and this piece that no one can take
[2:24:27] Speaker 4: away from me, right, in addition to this life I live.
[2:24:30] Speaker 4: That's like these incredible experiences every single day. I think
[2:24:35] Speaker 4: for some people, especially those of us who are pissed off,
[2:24:38] Speaker 4: I think we're meant to fight. But it does take
[2:24:40] Speaker 4: healing to be able to be in that place, right,
[2:24:43] Speaker 4: Because if you don't do the work to heal first,
[2:24:46] Speaker 4: it's not only about pouring from an empty cup, it's
[2:24:48] Speaker 4: that you're not going to be able to really give
[2:24:50] Speaker 4: to others. It's going to be very triggering and traumatizing
[2:24:53] Speaker 4: for you. So you know, there's a lot of work
[2:24:56] Speaker 4: in healing and again there's no finish line, but it
[2:25:00] Speaker 4: it can be, it can be a beautiful process.
[2:25:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine it's a difficult process. And I'll
[2:25:06] Speaker 1: end with my friend Goodwin, which I couldn't agree with more.
[2:25:10] Speaker 1: To everyone involved in this, thank you for doing this,
[2:25:13] Speaker 1: Thank you for your testimony and bravery. You do humanity's work.
[2:25:17] Speaker 1: You're doing something I couldn't I couldn't dream of doing.
[2:25:19] Speaker 1: And there a lot of us that probably at one
[2:25:23] Speaker 1: point I hope that we would find somebody engaging in
[2:25:26] Speaker 1: this work that we could support, said you're that person.
[2:25:30] Speaker 1: So I'll make sure that your information is available in
[2:25:33] Speaker 1: the description as a comment. People can support your nonprofit
[2:25:36] Speaker 1: and your your work and even the range as well.
[2:25:39] Speaker 1: And Kim, I thank you so much for coming and
[2:25:42] Speaker 1: joining me today, and I'm sure we'll be able to
[2:25:44] Speaker 1: cross pass again again as we know all the same
[2:25:48] Speaker 1: people people.
[2:25:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, I know a lot of people referred me to you.
[2:25:52] Speaker 4: I was already following you and I was like, oh, yeah,
[2:25:53] Speaker 4: I know what this is. Yeah, I appreciate what you
[2:25:56] Speaker 4: do as well. I definitely appreciate people that are intent
[2:25:58] Speaker 4: about dialogue. I've I've seen a lot of your lives
[2:26:01] Speaker 4: and like, it's not about arguing, it's not about being right.
[2:26:04] Speaker 4: It's actually about uniting people over the premise of logic
[2:26:07] Speaker 4: and truth. Right, truth is objective, So like me personally,
[2:26:11] Speaker 4: I don't I don't care what people believe or think
[2:26:13] Speaker 4: or whatever. It's how you pray, that's fine, but it
[2:26:15] Speaker 4: is about like, what are we doing? So again, knowledge
[2:26:17] Speaker 4: is only power if we choose to do something with it.
[2:26:20] Speaker 4: So thank you for using your knowledge and for helping
[2:26:22] Speaker 4: people and for giving people a path towards critical thinking.
[2:26:26] Speaker 4: I think that's so critical, especially in this day and age.
[2:26:30] Speaker 1: Well, thank you Kevim, and well you have a great
[2:26:32] Speaker 1: night and we'll be in contact. See I'm sure.
[2:26:34] Speaker 4: I'm sure. Thank you so much. I look forward to it.
[2:26:37] Speaker 4: Thanks for having me

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