# 2025-09-17 LIVE DEBATE \[The Trinity is Brain Rot\]

An episode of [Deconstruction Zone](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1837730286), 28 Dec 2025, 4 h 37 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/69201260/2025_09_17_18_32_16.mp3

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## Transcript

[0:18] Speaker 1: All right, friends, I think we are live. Sorry for
[0:26] Speaker 1: the delay. I got a special session tonight for everyone.
[0:31] Speaker 1: We're going to be joined shortly by my good friend Danny.
[0:36] Speaker 1: I assume most people on TikTok already know who Danny is,
[0:39] Speaker 1: and quite a bit of my followers probably follow Danny
[0:42] Speaker 1: on YouTube. If you don't follow Danny, Phil talk on
[0:46] Speaker 1: YouTube yet, I highly recommend it. But Danny's going to
[0:49] Speaker 1: be joining me here shortly, and we're going to be
[0:53] Speaker 1: cooking on the Trinity tonight. He got a little backed
[0:56] Speaker 1: up in traffic, but it's okay. He'll be here a
[0:58] Speaker 1: little while. Said, that's okay. That gives us about five
[1:02] Speaker 1: or ten minutes to load up all the guests. I
[1:05] Speaker 1: load up, Let's let the audience get here, and everyone
[1:09] Speaker 1: will be primed and ready to rock and roll here.
[1:12] Speaker 1: And just give me one second to turn my phone
[1:16] Speaker 1: volume off before I forget, because I do every week.
[1:21] Speaker 1: There we go. Thank you so much, Sherry for the
[1:23] Speaker 1: face paint. I really appreciate that, Sherry lou big w
[1:30] Speaker 1: All right, yeah, snip, there's gonna be puzzles today. You
[1:33] Speaker 1: know it's funny. I went to Walmart thinking that I
[1:36] Speaker 1: was gonna pick up a couple odds and ends, and
[1:39] Speaker 1: also some more soft pretzels. And I forgot pretzels. I
[1:44] Speaker 1: couldn't believe it, Like it was like I needed three things,
[1:48] Speaker 1: that was it. And I was like, I don't need
[1:50] Speaker 1: to write this down. There's only like three things, but
[1:52] Speaker 1: I did need to write it down. I forgot one
[1:57] Speaker 1: of the main things. Uh, it is what it is.
[2:02] Speaker 1: My mic is maxed out. Hold on, it was pretty
[2:06] Speaker 1: close to my face too. Sorry. That a little bit
[2:08] Speaker 1: better if the If the MIC's over amped, I can
[2:12] Speaker 1: take it down a notch too. It's hard to get
[2:15] Speaker 1: it just right. There's like a sweet spot. And if
[2:19] Speaker 1: it's not loud enough, then the guest is always louder
[2:21] Speaker 1: than me. If it's too loud, then I'm blowing people's
[2:23] Speaker 1: ears out. It's a it's a it's a tricky situation,
[2:27] Speaker 1: but it is what it is. With that, friends, while
[2:30] Speaker 1: we're we're waiting, let me grab a couple super chats
[2:33] Speaker 1: and then we'll be ready to rock and roll here shortly.
[2:36] Speaker 1: If you're watching on YouTube, there's a link on the
[2:38] Speaker 1: screen to join It's tiny dot c c Ford slash
[2:42] Speaker 1: Dzy guests. If you're watching on TikTok. I mean if
[2:45] Speaker 1: you watch on TikTok and you don't know how to
[2:47] Speaker 1: get in yet, Like I don't have to tell you
[2:49] Speaker 1: don't know you don't know how to use TikTok yet.
[2:53] Speaker 1: Either way, let's just grab a couple of super chats.
[2:56] Speaker 1: We've got a super chat from our friend Meg. Great
[2:59] Speaker 1: to see you tonight, makes says grilling time, steaks, mushrooms
[3:03] Speaker 1: and some rice in preparation for grilling Christians cook on praise.
[3:08] Speaker 2: Doug.
[3:08] Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Meg. I appreciate that, and
[3:11] Speaker 1: I hope your dinner is enjoyable. It sounds delicious already. Actually, Dex,
[3:18] Speaker 1: thank you for sending out five Desy Debate gifted memberships.
[3:22] Speaker 1: I super appreciate that. Good friend, Great to see you tonight,
[3:26] Speaker 1: as well as our friend Larry Beck. Great to see you,
[3:28] Speaker 1: Larry Beck. Thank you for the five Dzy Debate gifted memberships.
[3:32] Speaker 1: And people ask if they still ask pretty pretty recurrently,
[3:38] Speaker 1: which I guess I'm not too surprised, but I'm a
[3:40] Speaker 1: little bit surprised as to how do you obtain access
[3:46] Speaker 1: to the deconstruction. She the best way to do that
[3:49] Speaker 1: is to be gifted or to purchase your own membership
[3:51] Speaker 1: through YouTube or Patreon. All all of the members we'll receive.
[3:57] Speaker 1: We have access to a link to the Deconstruction cheat sheet,
[4:01] Speaker 1: and we'll be adding more resources to it nearly daily
[4:06] Speaker 1: like usual, sometimes big updates, sometimes small updates. I got
[4:09] Speaker 1: some big ones coming though, real soon. Gretchen, thank you
[4:12] Speaker 1: so much for the find our Superjack. Gretchen says, if
[4:15] Speaker 1: you go fishing with a Mormon, he'll drink all your beer.
[4:18] Speaker 1: If you go fishing with two Mormons, neither one of
[4:20] Speaker 1: them will drink it. This has actually been the case
[4:26] Speaker 1: with a lot of the religious people I've known, where
[4:30] Speaker 1: like behind closed doors they do all the normal stuff,
[4:35] Speaker 1: but when there are other believers around, then they have
[4:38] Speaker 1: to save face. Then they have to like abide by
[4:41] Speaker 1: all the rules. And I think this is true for
[4:44] Speaker 1: the Mormons as well as standard Christians. Probably even assume
[4:50] Speaker 1: that it's true for people within Judaism things like that.
[4:54] Speaker 1: I think it's just human nature, but it's one hundred
[4:57] Speaker 1: percent true. Gretchen and Steven, thank you so much for
[5:01] Speaker 1: the two forty nine dollars. Super Chest says medieval church
[5:03] Speaker 1: destroyed church refuse pay crazy. That was a wild super
[5:12] Speaker 1: chat medieval Church destroyed, church refuse pay. Well, I'll tell
[5:18] Speaker 1: you one thing. The medieval Church was out of their mind,
[5:21] Speaker 1: like there's no there's just no doubt about that. But
[5:23] Speaker 1: Stephen did give us a follow up here. Stephen says,
[5:26] Speaker 1: church biggest landowner in Spain, but no money.
[5:29] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[5:29] Speaker 1: Actually, this is the funniest thing that the Catholic Church
[5:31] Speaker 1: is one of the most financially valuable institutions to ever
[5:35] Speaker 1: exist and is currently in existence. It's weird that they
[5:39] Speaker 1: really still need your money all the time, Like, what
[5:42] Speaker 1: are they what are they doing with it? They're investing
[5:44] Speaker 1: in land. Oh, I'm sorry. They got to pay all
[5:48] Speaker 1: the they got to pay all the lawyers. And Dan,
[5:54] Speaker 1: thank you for the fight of super Chet. Dan says,
[5:55] Speaker 1: just watch your debate with Wi Fi on modern day Debate.
[5:58] Speaker 1: Holy shit, that was a trade wreck. Oh my gosh,
[6:01] Speaker 1: it certainly was. Doll commn Dalton.
[6:05] Speaker 4: Hey, buddy, sebody, it's funny. I literally just woke up
[6:10] Speaker 4: from my nap when I saw your message.
[6:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be a wild ride tonight. You've seen
[6:18] Speaker 1: the Trinity discussions before, I assume, and.
[6:23] Speaker 4: What buddy, they're a messy seeing them. I've had them. Yeah, yeah,
[6:28] Speaker 4: it's a it's a messy. It's gonna be fun though.
[6:31] Speaker 4: I'm sure we'll talk about John buand and whatnot.
[6:35] Speaker 1: They're saying that there's an echo on your end. Is
[6:39] Speaker 1: it just on TikTok or is it on TikTok and
[6:41] Speaker 1: also on YouTube? Friends, I didn't hear an echo with
[6:44] Speaker 1: word that that y'all heard an echo? Was it echo
[6:50] Speaker 1: or was a background noise? Let me know? He said, Oh,
[6:56] Speaker 1: it's an echo. Oh that's interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting, mm.
[7:03] Speaker 4: Hmmmm, background noise. Probably. I'm just gonna I'm gonna stay
[7:10] Speaker 4: muted until you don't walk in my dogs.
[7:13] Speaker 1: Okay, okay, it might shoot, it might be. I don't
[7:21] Speaker 1: think it's my machine. But does this happen on occasion?
[7:27] Speaker 1: Let me double check my properties, make sure all the
[7:30] Speaker 1: properties are set? Said, okay, yeah, it's echo just from
[7:35] Speaker 1: from Dalton, just on TikTok for some reason. Interesting, Well,
[7:39] Speaker 1: maybe we'll do this. Uh sometimes TikTok just kind of
[7:42] Speaker 1: screws the pooch Dalton. Maybe, uh, swipe away from the
[7:47] Speaker 1: app and then come back and see if that fixes it.
[7:49] Speaker 1: Usually that kind of fixes it. Dan, You're one hundred
[7:53] Speaker 1: percent right, though, Dan. The debate with Wi Fi Gospel
[7:56] Speaker 1: or dial up gospel was a train wreck. And he
[8:00] Speaker 1: picked the topic. By the way, I didn't know he
[8:03] Speaker 1: was going to come and do presup. He picked the
[8:05] Speaker 1: topic he chose to do, did Jesus fulfill the Messianic prophecies?
[8:09] Speaker 1: And then he showed up and did a pre subscript.
[8:11] Speaker 1: It was embarrassing, it really was. Zen. Thank you for
[8:15] Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety nine dollars superchet. Zen says, welcome back
[8:18] Speaker 1: to the home grill. Hope we have a nicer cookout.
[8:22] Speaker 1: I think we're going to have. I think we're gonna
[8:24] Speaker 1: have a good cookout for sure, and thank you for
[8:27] Speaker 1: thank you for the super check.
[8:29] Speaker 4: Zen.
[8:29] Speaker 1: Great to see you. Great to see you in the
[8:31] Speaker 1: house tonight, Zen, I appreciate that. And Yoda, thank you
[8:35] Speaker 1: for the super chet. Yoda says, glad to see everyone here.
[8:37] Speaker 1: Happy you made it through another day. Hope you had
[8:39] Speaker 1: a kick ass day, Yes, even you rock hard for
[8:42] Speaker 1: Doug Well, Thank you so much for that, Yoda. I
[8:44] Speaker 1: appreciate that, and I agree. I hope everyone had a
[8:48] Speaker 1: rock solid day, lived a shit out of everyday. Friends, EMC,
[8:54] Speaker 1: thank you for the to our super chest says Hi, Justin,
[8:56] Speaker 1: been listening to you a while now quickly became my favorite.
[9:00] Speaker 1: Some pretzel rolls. Ready roll them up, good emc I
[9:04] Speaker 1: will do it. And thank you so much for liking
[9:07] Speaker 1: and supporting the channel and super chanting the channel. I
[9:09] Speaker 1: really appreciate that, friend, and John you as well. Thank
[9:13] Speaker 1: you for the supertech. John says, too bad they went.
[9:15] Speaker 1: They went with trinity. If it had just been two,
[9:18] Speaker 1: they could be a Bogo they could do bogo commercials.
[9:22] Speaker 1: I agree, they could do buy one, they could do
[9:26] Speaker 1: buy one, get one commercial two. I mean, but if
[9:31] Speaker 1: there are two, then it would be technically probably three
[9:33] Speaker 1: because we got to include the trinity, you know, Peter,
[9:37] Speaker 1: thank you for the super tests. Last dear, sorry oops
[9:40] Speaker 1: the deer in headlights look on that guy last stream
[9:44] Speaker 1: when perfect imperfect grammatical aspect came up, so funny, don't
[9:48] Speaker 1: talk about a language you don't know. What's interesting was
[9:52] Speaker 1: he actually had a pretty good memory. He knew quite
[9:54] Speaker 1: a few verses, and he actually memorized a number of
[9:56] Speaker 1: Hebrew phrases and words. But it was just clear he
[9:59] Speaker 1: didn't actually understand the grammar. Grammar's important. Friends and Carlos,
[10:04] Speaker 1: thank you for sending out twenty Deconstruction Zone gifted memberships.
[10:08] Speaker 1: That's huge, my friend, I super super appreciate that. Big
[10:12] Speaker 1: w Carlos. I think my my buddy Danny is here.
[10:18] Speaker 1: Danny wrong? Hey, before we get started, can everyone on
[10:23] Speaker 1: TikTok let me know if the if the echoes okay,
[10:26] Speaker 1: if you're if it came back, or if it was
[10:27] Speaker 1: just with Dalton. Oh he's got an echo too.
[10:31] Speaker 2: I got an echo.
[10:32] Speaker 1: Let me check something. Why would you be echoing?
[10:41] Speaker 2: I'm just on my phone.
[10:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, what about now if he if he talks now,
[10:53] Speaker 1: is it still echoing? Give him a second? The cut jup. Hmmm, yes, why.
[11:06] Speaker 2: Hmm, I'll come back out. Maybe go in and go out.
[11:12] Speaker 1: Well, I don't I don't know if it's you because
[11:15] Speaker 1: I had someone up here just a moment ago, and
[11:16] Speaker 1: it said they were echoing. But it only echoes on
[11:18] Speaker 1: TikTok right now. It's not echoing anywhere else, which is weird.
[11:22] Speaker 1: I would expect it to echo somewhere else.
[11:25] Speaker 2: Let's try the good old turn off turning back on
[11:28] Speaker 2: strategy first.
[11:29] Speaker 1: We might have to. We might have to.
[11:41] Speaker 2: All right, how's the same back? Is it?
[11:43] Speaker 5: Is? It?
[11:44] Speaker 2: Is it pretty bad?
[11:45] Speaker 1: We'll see this is any better. Sounds like he's in
[11:49] Speaker 1: a tunnel. They said, it's better. Give it a second.
[11:56] Speaker 2: You know what's funny on my screen? I see two
[11:59] Speaker 2: things I see.
[12:01] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I don't worry about that. That's some visual stuff.
[12:04] Speaker 1: They said, to echo has gone.
[12:05] Speaker 2: Now you see that's that's called boomer troubleshooting.
[12:14] Speaker 1: If it doesn't work or start it.
[12:16] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[12:18] Speaker 1: The other thing too, is and let me double check,
[12:21] Speaker 1: because I I think I see the problem. I respect
[12:28] Speaker 1: it was an audio setting. Say something now and see
[12:30] Speaker 1: if the echo comes back. I think it might have been.
[12:33] Speaker 2: My camera, is it?
[12:34] Speaker 6: I wonder?
[12:34] Speaker 2: I mean not that that should affect anything.
[12:36] Speaker 1: But no, I don't think it's your camera. Yep, that
[12:40] Speaker 1: was it. Okay, wasn't your camera. It was a setting.
[12:42] Speaker 1: I had checked. Okay, I figured it out. We're good
[12:44] Speaker 1: to go, all right with that. Let me grab I.
[12:50] Speaker 2: Camera.
[12:50] Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's not the camera. Don't I was.
[12:52] Speaker 1: I was walking around with the setting.
[12:53] Speaker 5: Don't worry.
[12:54] Speaker 1: You're good.
[12:56] Speaker 2: Don't do that to me. I'm basically I'm so bad
[12:59] Speaker 2: with this stuff.
[13:01] Speaker 1: It's not the camera. Friends, I'm doing stuff over here.
[13:03] Speaker 1: Don't worry, all right that the echoes should be off.
[13:09] Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not echoing anymore.
[13:11] Speaker 1: Then we'll have to get it a second to uh
[13:14] Speaker 1: catch back up again. The echo shouldn't the echo shouldn't
[13:17] Speaker 1: be happening right now. We'll give it a second. Is
[13:21] Speaker 1: he still echoing just a second ago? He says, not
[13:25] Speaker 1: once happen.
[13:27] Speaker 3: It is.
[13:28] Speaker 2: Let me turn off the camera.
[13:30] Speaker 1: To be crazy. If it's a camera, forgot how to
[13:34] Speaker 1: do this?
[13:39] Speaker 6: All right?
[13:39] Speaker 2: Are we echoing?
[13:44] Speaker 1: If it's a camera, that's crazy? That is they said,
[13:49] Speaker 1: it's gone, Wow, what the fuck is happening with TikTok today?
[13:56] Speaker 1: So guest turns on camera, echo, it echoes. That's wild.
[14:05] Speaker 1: I've never seen that before. It's new. It's a new problem.
[14:08] Speaker 2: That's that defies the laws of physics.
[14:12] Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that's a wild one. That's a quantum physics problem.
[14:17] Speaker 1: We we do all right, I've got I've got a
[14:26] Speaker 1: guest already that I know wants to talk about the
[14:29] Speaker 1: trinity named Goat Goat? Can you hear?
[14:33] Speaker 5: Okay?
[14:34] Speaker 1: Oh hold on, he's not up here quite yet.
[14:38] Speaker 7: We are so bad, guys. We are so back.
[14:43] Speaker 1: Well you who's got a sould back?
[14:46] Speaker 3: No?
[14:46] Speaker 7: I mean we are so back. We are back here.
[14:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we are we are back. Okay, So, so goat,
[14:51] Speaker 1: we already know you're a trinitarian.
[14:54] Speaker 7: Ah, trinitarian Latin trin Italian to that tell me Italian to?
[15:01] Speaker 1: And do you believe? Do you believe that the Trinity
[15:06] Speaker 1: is logical?
[15:07] Speaker 8: Yes?
[15:09] Speaker 1: Really?
[15:11] Speaker 7: If I say, if I said that logical, I would
[15:13] Speaker 7: be a heretic.
[15:15] Speaker 5: All right?
[15:15] Speaker 2: Do you do you believe in one God?
[15:17] Speaker 6: Yes?
[15:18] Speaker 2: Okay? Is that one God begotten?
[15:23] Speaker 7: Is that God?
[15:24] Speaker 2: What is that one God begotten?
[15:27] Speaker 7: Well? What are you when you say one God? What
[15:29] Speaker 7: are you to?
[15:30] Speaker 2: I'm referring to what you accepted when you said that
[15:32] Speaker 2: there's one God.
[15:33] Speaker 7: Don't play When we say one God, we one divine
[15:38] Speaker 7: essence and.
[15:40] Speaker 2: It's not.
[15:42] Speaker 5: All right?
[15:42] Speaker 7: So is that one God begotten? The one godessence? It's
[15:47] Speaker 7: not all right?
[15:48] Speaker 2: Well I didn't ask. Remember, there's only sense of God
[15:52] Speaker 2: that matters. Is the sense of God that makes sense
[15:56] Speaker 2: of monotheism. I don't care about any other senses of God. Okay?
[16:00] Speaker 2: So is Jesus God in the sense of monotheism?
[16:05] Speaker 6: Yes or no?
[16:09] Speaker 7: Yes, Jesus is the divalescence that we okay, is the
[16:13] Speaker 7: divinessence forgotten?
[16:15] Speaker 2: Now?
[16:16] Speaker 3: Okay?
[16:16] Speaker 2: Is Jesus forgotten. Yes, all right, that violates transitivity.
[16:21] Speaker 7: And now does the tivity does not work like that?
[16:24] Speaker 2: How does it work?
[16:26] Speaker 7: The does the TV? The only words? When there is
[16:28] Speaker 7: an absolute type of identity, that is what real and
[16:32] Speaker 7: by reason reason?
[16:33] Speaker 5: Doesn't that mean?
[16:35] Speaker 2: Why is it not? So you're saying it's like a
[16:37] Speaker 2: non absolute sense of identity. Yes, what kind of identity?
[16:41] Speaker 7: The real identity?
[16:44] Speaker 2: What does that mean?
[16:45] Speaker 7: Real identity means that there is an identity of reality,
[16:49] Speaker 7: meaning that the reality that is the diescence is not
[16:52] Speaker 7: multiplied with other three pairs of being.
[16:55] Speaker 2: Reality is other than the divnescence.
[16:57] Speaker 6: All right?
[16:58] Speaker 2: Is Jesus and Yesua? Are they really identical?
[17:04] Speaker 7: Jesus and Jeshua?
[17:05] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[17:06] Speaker 2: Are they really identical?
[17:07] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[17:07] Speaker 7: Because the distinction between Jesus and Jesua is.
[17:10] Speaker 2: No matter why?
[17:11] Speaker 3: Right?
[17:11] Speaker 2: But they're really identical?
[17:12] Speaker 6: Right?
[17:13] Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, if Jesus died on the cross, then you
[17:16] Speaker 2: cannot infer that Yesua died on the cross then, right?
[17:21] Speaker 7: Actually no, because when we say Jesus and Jesua, that's
[17:25] Speaker 7: just a distinction of reason reason or a nominal distinction.
[17:29] Speaker 2: You said that if it's not sufficient to say that
[17:32] Speaker 2: if X and Y are really identical, that. Therefore, it's
[17:36] Speaker 2: that you can apply to trinitivity, right.
[17:38] Speaker 7: I say that, but that's because I qualify that what
[17:42] Speaker 7: happens is that with Jesus and Jeshua they are not
[17:44] Speaker 7: only really identical, they are so identical by reason reason
[17:49] Speaker 7: socitivity does apply.
[17:52] Speaker 2: They're they're identical via what reason?
[17:55] Speaker 4: Reason?
[17:56] Speaker 2: What is that you?
[17:58] Speaker 5: Really?
[17:58] Speaker 7: No, there are two types of Okay.
[18:02] Speaker 1: So hold on, hold on, hold on, go We didn't
[18:03] Speaker 1: hear the word that came out of your mouth. What
[18:05] Speaker 1: word are you trying to say?
[18:08] Speaker 7: Reason?
[18:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, reason, it's not it's not a thing, it's it's
[18:13] Speaker 1: a process.
[18:15] Speaker 5: You can't.
[18:15] Speaker 7: No, I don't.
[18:16] Speaker 1: I don't mean you're using it like a noun.
[18:21] Speaker 7: Okay, wait a second, let me get my.
[18:26] Speaker 4: Just for sure. I got people in the comm section asking,
[18:29] Speaker 4: do Danny and Goats really mean yahweh? Not yes?
[18:33] Speaker 6: Sure?
[18:34] Speaker 7: No, I mean I mean yes.
[18:36] Speaker 2: I don't mean yahweh. I mean yes, sure.
[18:38] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[18:38] Speaker 2: Jesus is the Greek.
[18:42] Speaker 7: Okay, but technically Jesus is the Latin getting the Greek.
[18:46] Speaker 6: Yess.
[18:47] Speaker 2: Here's here's to explain to everyone. Here's the problem. Right,
[18:51] Speaker 2: they want to say that Jesus is Yesua in the
[18:53] Speaker 2: way that what's true of Jesus is true of Yeshua
[18:56] Speaker 2: and vice versa. Okay, but then when you say Jesus
[18:59] Speaker 2: is God, suddenly that rule breaks, and they don't have
[19:03] Speaker 2: a good account as to why it breaks. They just
[19:04] Speaker 2: kind of make it up to preserve monotheism.
[19:07] Speaker 7: Well, we actually do. Do you know how many distinctions
[19:10] Speaker 7: that exist in Catholicism?
[19:12] Speaker 2: And too many? Right, they make up distinctions to make
[19:16] Speaker 2: sense of nonsense all the time.
[19:20] Speaker 1: The first I'm aware like that breaks since you introduce
[19:24] Speaker 1: a distinction, you're breaking the laws of logic, because if
[19:27] Speaker 1: there's a distinction, then they're not identical, which means if
[19:32] Speaker 1: Jesus is identical with God, then he can't be distinct
[19:34] Speaker 1: from any part of God.
[19:37] Speaker 7: Well, the problem is that you're seeing the identity and
[19:40] Speaker 7: distinction in the sense of forma logic, which it's not
[19:44] Speaker 7: what we are talking about.
[19:46] Speaker 1: We are we're talking about the laws of logic. That's
[19:49] Speaker 1: what it means when I say the Trinity is illogical
[19:52] Speaker 1: incoorhent gibberish.
[19:53] Speaker 7: What happened is that there are different models of logic.
[19:56] Speaker 7: Forma logic is one thing I.
[19:59] Speaker 1: Don't know of those.
[20:01] Speaker 2: Good scholasticism is like gibberish. You have to adopt a
[20:05] Speaker 2: gibberish tradition to make sense of your God?
[20:07] Speaker 7: Why is scolastican giebts.
[20:09] Speaker 2: It's not like you can have a good account on
[20:10] Speaker 2: all these distinctions. Like, it's not like you can explain
[20:13] Speaker 2: the differences between virtual formal material distinctions. All of that
[20:16] Speaker 2: reduces to nonsense.
[20:17] Speaker 7: What it can do you want me?
[20:19] Speaker 2: Actually, I would rather spare us. We can just go
[20:22] Speaker 2: to the Bible and show why the trinity is false?
[20:25] Speaker 7: Okay, show me the all right?
[20:28] Speaker 2: Can God grow in wisdom?
[20:29] Speaker 7: Can God grow in wisdom? And under what aspect?
[20:33] Speaker 4: Do you?
[20:33] Speaker 6: Meaning me?
[20:35] Speaker 2: Can you grow in wisdom?
[20:37] Speaker 8: I can? I?
[20:38] Speaker 7: Yes, I can?
[20:39] Speaker 6: All right?
[20:39] Speaker 2: Can God grow in wisdom on what aspects? Under the
[20:42] Speaker 2: aspect that you just accepted?
[20:44] Speaker 7: Stop playing games on the aspect that I just accepted.
[20:47] Speaker 7: Where there's same thing which I can get in wisdom
[20:49] Speaker 7: that I am a human? So are you asking if
[20:52] Speaker 7: God can go in wisdom by build bank unitedly humanity?
[20:55] Speaker 2: I'm asking can God grow in wisdom in the same
[20:57] Speaker 2: way that you said you grow in wisdom?
[21:00] Speaker 4: Yes?
[21:00] Speaker 7: Because God can be united to the human nature.
[21:03] Speaker 2: Okay, So God can grow wisdom?
[21:05] Speaker 5: Yes?
[21:06] Speaker 2: Okay? Is God omniscient?
[21:08] Speaker 7: Yes, he's omniscient.
[21:10] Speaker 6: Right?
[21:10] Speaker 2: Is he all wise?
[21:11] Speaker 7: Yes, he's all wise.
[21:13] Speaker 2: How can an all wise being grow in wisdom?
[21:16] Speaker 7: He does not.
[21:17] Speaker 2: You just said, so you're just contradicting yourself.
[21:20] Speaker 1: You just said he did.
[21:22] Speaker 7: Okay, guys, if I if you guys, let me explain
[21:25] Speaker 7: with a lot of length explanations I could.
[21:28] Speaker 3: So.
[21:28] Speaker 2: I think you're a waste of time. Honestly, No, I
[21:30] Speaker 2: am not.
[21:31] Speaker 7: I am You're not just not letting me talk. Okay,
[21:34] Speaker 7: let's start. There is the divine essence, which will be
[21:37] Speaker 7: like the divine being that contains all the perpetual of God.
[21:40] Speaker 1: What's your definition of essence?
[21:43] Speaker 7: Essence that which makes I think what it is?
[21:46] Speaker 1: So all of the characteristics of something more or less? Yes, okay,
[21:51] Speaker 1: So in order for Jesus to share in the divine essence,
[21:55] Speaker 1: he must require all of the characteristics of God.
[22:01] Speaker 7: When you say Jesus, do you mean the Son of God, God,
[22:03] Speaker 7: the Son?
[22:04] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[22:06] Speaker 7: So do you mean that hyposthasis.
[22:09] Speaker 1: No, I'm saying Jesus, the guy that you you worship
[22:12] Speaker 1: as God, does he does he have one of the
[22:16] Speaker 1: divine essence or part of the divine essence Justin.
[22:19] Speaker 2: This is the guy that says, do you if you
[22:21] Speaker 2: ask him do you drink water? And he says, by water,
[22:23] Speaker 2: do you mean like like I mean, that's why we're
[22:27] Speaker 2: dealing with. Right, That's what these people do, right to
[22:30] Speaker 2: obfuscate you ask a very basic question like do you
[22:33] Speaker 2: drink water?
[22:34] Speaker 3: Well?
[22:34] Speaker 2: Do you mean or do you mean?
[22:37] Speaker 5: You know?
[22:37] Speaker 2: Blah blah blah and in the Latin Greek, right, this
[22:40] Speaker 2: is what they do. Everybody observe.
[22:43] Speaker 4: No, this is this is this is worse than words.
[22:46] Speaker 4: Don't mean words, this is what are words?
[22:50] Speaker 7: No, guys, what happened complex?
[22:54] Speaker 2: Water is very complex. Have you heard of agua? That's
[22:56] Speaker 2: what you're doing. I think when Justin said Jesus, I
[23:00] Speaker 2: think you know exactly what he meant.
[23:02] Speaker 4: He had said Jesus.
[23:03] Speaker 2: And suddenly when we ask questions right about Jesus, what
[23:08] Speaker 2: do you mean by Jesus? What are you talking about?
[23:10] Speaker 2: I don't know anything. You act like I'm not talking
[23:13] Speaker 2: to this.
[23:13] Speaker 7: Well, when I say Jesus, do you mean like the
[23:16] Speaker 7: human native?
[23:17] Speaker 2: You say, this is what I'm talking about. You know
[23:21] Speaker 2: exactly what we mean by Jesus. Then the man that
[23:23] Speaker 2: died for your.
[23:24] Speaker 7: Sins, the man that died for my saints? Okay? Is that?
[23:29] Speaker 1: What is Jesus? I don't know, No, I do know.
[23:34] Speaker 1: It's crazy that you don't know what Jesus is.
[23:37] Speaker 7: I know what Jesus is. What I don't know is
[23:39] Speaker 7: what he means by them.
[23:42] Speaker 4: That you all know what? We all know who Jesus
[23:44] Speaker 4: of Nazareth was.
[23:45] Speaker 3: Go.
[23:46] Speaker 4: I can go to a stranger on the street and say,
[23:48] Speaker 4: do you know who Jesus was? And they say yes.
[23:50] Speaker 4: For some reason, You've seen the only person on the
[23:52] Speaker 4: fucking planet who doesn't know who Jesus is.
[23:55] Speaker 2: This is what scholastic kool aid does to your brain.
[23:58] Speaker 2: When you drink the scholastic, It's over for your brain.
[24:01] Speaker 2: It's done. There's no cure. You're broken.
[24:05] Speaker 7: Oh I am more.
[24:08] Speaker 2: False. Everyone can see that you're not. You're missing the
[24:12] Speaker 2: rational nature.
[24:14] Speaker 7: How can I. I'm speaking to.
[24:16] Speaker 1: You, So go Jesus meaning of all of Jesus. When
[24:21] Speaker 1: I say Jesus, I mean all of Jesus. Okay, not
[24:25] Speaker 1: not his divine nature, not his not justice flesh, all
[24:29] Speaker 1: of Jesus, one hundred percent of Jesus. Whatever you think,
[24:31] Speaker 1: Jesus is, one hundred percent of them. Okay, iverythink Jesus
[24:35] Speaker 1: is does Jesus possess one hundred percent of the divine essence?
[24:40] Speaker 6: Yes?
[24:41] Speaker 1: Okay? If the divine essence by you is described as
[24:46] Speaker 1: the characteristics that make God God, that would require Jesus
[24:50] Speaker 1: to have one hundred percent of the characteristics of.
[24:53] Speaker 7: God, the absolute will power.
[24:59] Speaker 1: I said, hundred percent, one hundred percent.
[25:02] Speaker 7: Yeah, But when we speak of the diviness and intelection
[25:06] Speaker 7: of the person, the only the divines has only is
[25:10] Speaker 7: identified with the person in reals to the absolute right.
[25:14] Speaker 6: Right.
[25:14] Speaker 1: But listen why I said one hundred percent of the
[25:18] Speaker 1: divine essence?
[25:18] Speaker 6: Right?
[25:19] Speaker 1: Because it says in Galatians are I'm sorry Colossians chapter
[25:22] Speaker 1: one and chapter two actually that the fullness of God
[25:26] Speaker 1: was pleased to dwell within Jesus Christ, which means one
[25:28] Speaker 1: hundred percent of the divine essence must be in Jesus.
[25:30] Speaker 7: Correct in in some sense, but the phrases in some
[25:36] Speaker 7: sense Jesus, so I has part of the divine essence
[25:41] Speaker 7: neither parts. What happened is that one hundred percent? Okay,
[25:44] Speaker 7: let me let me give you something.
[25:46] Speaker 1: What percentage of the divine essence is in Jesus.
[25:49] Speaker 7: The divine methods is not divisible, So there are no.
[25:52] Speaker 1: Pass so then so then Jesus should have a one
[25:55] Speaker 1: hundred percent of the characteristics of God the Father.
[26:00] Speaker 7: One, why will I why will that be? What will?
[26:05] Speaker 6: What be?
[26:06] Speaker 7: Why will why would Jesus have all the characteristics of
[26:11] Speaker 7: God the Father?
[26:12] Speaker 1: Because you just said he has the divine essence one
[26:14] Speaker 1: hundred percent of it?
[26:16] Speaker 7: Yeah, but the having all the divine essence only applies
[26:19] Speaker 7: to the absolute, not to the relatives.
[26:22] Speaker 1: It's irrelevant. If you're one hundred percent God, you need
[26:25] Speaker 1: one hundred percent of God's qualities. It doesn't matter if
[26:29] Speaker 1: it's a relative or an absolute quality. You need all
[26:31] Speaker 1: of them.
[26:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[26:33] Speaker 7: But if you if you mean one hundred percent God,
[26:36] Speaker 7: as in Jesus has the entirety of the things that
[26:40] Speaker 7: are identical to Is that what you mean?
[26:44] Speaker 1: He must possess one hundred percent of the divine essence
[26:47] Speaker 1: and all of its qualities?
[26:49] Speaker 2: Right, it's not hard. It's either that he's fully God
[26:52] Speaker 2: or it's not fully God. Which one is it?
[26:55] Speaker 4: When we say that if you're going to the and
[27:00] Speaker 4: iye him of some of the divine aspects, you're gonna
[27:03] Speaker 4: have to like force yourself to believe that God is
[27:06] Speaker 4: like in parts and Jesus only has a few of
[27:08] Speaker 4: those parts.
[27:10] Speaker 7: Well, the son only has exactly Okay, let me gibbs,
[27:16] Speaker 7: let me come, let me, let me make some counts
[27:18] Speaker 7: in shibility, paternity, part inspiration, okay, expiration, passive inspiration.
[27:26] Speaker 1: No one can hear what you're saying. You're saying something's past,
[27:28] Speaker 1: its expiration past.
[27:30] Speaker 2: He's talking about the processions, like how they he said procession.
[27:36] Speaker 2: He's talking about creation paspirations.
[27:39] Speaker 4: Passive inspiration is a term that's only applied to the
[27:43] Speaker 4: way which the Holy Spirit relates between the Father and
[27:46] Speaker 4: the Son.
[27:46] Speaker 2: It's not it's more gibbous.
[27:48] Speaker 7: Then there are five notions am on the three persons?
[27:53] Speaker 2: How we cannot do no? Five notions? Right, it's very simple, right,
[27:58] Speaker 2: I gave the argument earlier. Right, God can't grow in
[28:01] Speaker 2: wisdom because he's all wise. Right, something that is all
[28:04] Speaker 2: wise cannot grow in wisdom. So Jesus is not God
[28:06] Speaker 2: in that sense.
[28:07] Speaker 7: It's over, okay, because the essence can't get in wisdom.
[28:11] Speaker 1: But that doesn't he doesn't have the divine essence. He
[28:15] Speaker 1: already said it.
[28:15] Speaker 2: He doesn't have a hundred So Jesus is not God
[28:18] Speaker 2: in the monarchyistic sense.
[28:21] Speaker 7: Jesus and theesence are one reality, but this reality contains three.
[28:27] Speaker 1: So you just said it's not You literally just said
[28:30] Speaker 1: that he doesn't possess all of the qualities of God.
[28:32] Speaker 1: And if the qualities of God are divined essence, then
[28:35] Speaker 1: he doesn't have one hundred percent of the divine essence.
[28:38] Speaker 7: I meant that in the way you seem to be
[28:41] Speaker 7: ascribing it.
[28:42] Speaker 2: No, we're talking about the belief that there is one God, right, okay?
[28:46] Speaker 2: That is that that sense of God. What does it
[28:49] Speaker 2: pick out? It refers to the one divinescence, all right,
[28:53] Speaker 2: It doesn't pick out Jesus, right.
[28:55] Speaker 7: Jesus or better said, the Son is really identical to it.
[29:00] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[29:00] Speaker 2: I didn't ask anything about that, So I'm gonna say
[29:02] Speaker 2: it again. Does the term God pick out the divine
[29:04] Speaker 2: essence or Jesus? They have really identically, Yeah, try to
[29:09] Speaker 2: answer the question, dodger both both okay. So the term
[29:16] Speaker 2: God picks out the divine essence and Jesus, okay.
[29:20] Speaker 7: Is really identified with the Father that the spirit.
[29:23] Speaker 2: All right, So the term God, right does it? What
[29:27] Speaker 2: is the meaning imply forgotten?
[29:31] Speaker 7: Does the meaning of God imply begotten?
[29:34] Speaker 4: Yes?
[29:34] Speaker 7: What if you got if you say God, you mean
[29:36] Speaker 7: the imparity of what can be? Describe it to God? Well, yes,
[29:39] Speaker 7: I guess so.
[29:40] Speaker 2: Okay, so the if so, then you can replace the
[29:43] Speaker 2: term God with the forgotten entity. And you're saying that
[29:47] Speaker 2: the begotten entity picks out both Jesus and the divine essence.
[29:50] Speaker 2: Therefore the divine essence is forgotten. It's over for you.
[29:53] Speaker 3: Now.
[29:53] Speaker 2: Let's hear the sophistry. Let's hear the softistry. Let's hear it,
[29:57] Speaker 2: let's hear the Okay, doesn't Oh my god, Yeah I don't.
[30:06] Speaker 1: All right, So he's just he's denied logic at this point,
[30:08] Speaker 1: and that's fine.
[30:10] Speaker 7: No, okay, Well actually, actually, actually.
[30:15] Speaker 1: It's fun. I always enjoyed talking to you, but as
[30:18] Speaker 1: always I can only understand half of what you're saying,
[30:21] Speaker 1: and I feel like it's time to spare the audience
[30:23] Speaker 1: and move on.
[30:25] Speaker 4: Well, thanks for coming.
[30:26] Speaker 2: He doesn't understand half of what he's saying either, by
[30:29] Speaker 2: the way.
[30:31] Speaker 4: Yeah, he just read on the Trinity by Quinness by
[30:34] Speaker 4: Augustine and just ran with it. We should see if
[30:38] Speaker 4: the cameras are working now or it's going to create
[30:40] Speaker 4: another echo.
[30:41] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really weird. I've never seen that problem before.
[30:45] Speaker 1: I'm curious if anyone else is having the problem. But
[30:47] Speaker 1: somebody turned a camera on. I want to see what happens.
[30:49] Speaker 1: Let me know if the echo comes back.
[30:52] Speaker 2: Tests one, two, three, Thanks for the galaxy.
[30:57] Speaker 4: Do we have echo?
[30:59] Speaker 1: It came back? What a crazy fucking glitch?
[31:05] Speaker 9: Okay, well it iss it is, but it is next time.
[31:12] Speaker 9: Next time we'll use the video ninja to get the
[31:15] Speaker 9: co hosts.
[31:17] Speaker 1: To join up. But let me grab our next I
[31:19] Speaker 1: got a couple of super chests. I'm gonna grab focal
[31:21] Speaker 1: point from the queue. Super Dans, says big fan, much
[31:26] Speaker 1: love from Scotland. Hell yeah, I've always wondered does Doug
[31:29] Speaker 1: have a satan? No, Doug does not have. He didn't
[31:32] Speaker 1: create his own enemy, being the rock of ages. That is,
[31:35] Speaker 1: Doug is the satan paper paper angel. No, Doug has
[31:41] Speaker 1: never been, nor will he ever be defeated by paper.
[31:44] Speaker 1: That's nonsense, absolute nonsense. And Carlos, thank you for the
[31:48] Speaker 1: super chat. Buddy says hey, justin we the Doug heites
[31:52] Speaker 1: finally at home since yesterday. Glad to hear it. Glad
[31:54] Speaker 1: you're healing up now in recovery. With a vacuuming system
[31:59] Speaker 1: attached to my leg is therapy for the next five weeks.
[32:02] Speaker 1: Shit damn, Carlos. Well, first of all, I'm glad you're
[32:05] Speaker 1: back home. I mean that that's a huge victory. So
[32:08] Speaker 1: let us know how you're doing. Keep us up to date.
[32:10] Speaker 1: We love and care about your friend. And last one
[32:12] Speaker 1: for now from our friend gl thank you so much,
[32:15] Speaker 1: gl for the forty nine dollars super chat. Big Big
[32:18] Speaker 1: W says, I hate to go. He's hard. He's the
[32:22] Speaker 1: I think he's a nice guy, but he's hard to
[32:24] Speaker 1: talk to. He's a difficult one to talk to. Gell,
[32:26] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the super chat. I super
[32:28] Speaker 1: appreciate that. We're gonna get focal point into the conversation.
[32:33] Speaker 1: Servant of Lucifer was here first. But you don't sound
[32:37] Speaker 1: like a Christian, so I'm not really sure. I could
[32:39] Speaker 1: be wrong. We'll try you next, focal point. Welcome in.
[32:46] Speaker 10: I'm sorry I was replying to people in your chat.
[32:49] Speaker 5: How are you guys doing good?
[32:50] Speaker 10: Are you?
[32:52] Speaker 5: I'm I'm well focal?
[32:55] Speaker 1: Are you at least eighteen?
[32:57] Speaker 4: Oh shit, well.
[32:58] Speaker 6: Yes, I.
[33:02] Speaker 5: Man, yeah, I'm definitely older than eighteen.
[33:06] Speaker 1: All right, focal hold on one second, you've got an echo
[33:09] Speaker 1: in your TikTok app. Can you swipe away and then
[33:12] Speaker 1: come back for us real quick?
[33:15] Speaker 4: By the way, Danny, it's nice to meet you.
[33:17] Speaker 2: Nice to meet you too.
[33:18] Speaker 6: Man.
[33:18] Speaker 1: Oh, you guys haven't met yet.
[33:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been. I've been taking a break from me.
[33:26] Speaker 4: To me, but I just came back.
[33:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, let me see. I don't know if I hear
[33:30] Speaker 1: an echo just yet. I think it's okay, I think
[33:32] Speaker 1: it was. You must have your TikTok app was apping funny?
[33:36] Speaker 1: So focal point? Are you a Christian?
[33:41] Speaker 6: Uh no?
[33:42] Speaker 5: I consider myself gnostic?
[33:45] Speaker 1: Okay, So you don't believe in trinity.
[33:49] Speaker 10: I believe it depends upon which trinity you're talking about?
[33:53] Speaker 2: Science?
[33:54] Speaker 5: Icing?
[33:54] Speaker 2: Do you do you accept?
[33:57] Speaker 5: Pardon me?
[33:58] Speaker 2: Do you accept the icing Creed?
[34:01] Speaker 4: Do I accept?
[34:02] Speaker 6: What? One?
[34:02] Speaker 5: More time?
[34:03] Speaker 2: Please than the nice in Creed?
[34:07] Speaker 5: I'm not familiar.
[34:08] Speaker 2: It's it was produced in a council in three twenty five.
[34:11] Speaker 2: It's a creed that all Catholics, both any kind of
[34:15] Speaker 2: Catholic and eos and most Protestants accept right that Jesus sorry,
[34:20] Speaker 2: that God is three persons, okay, one God. They're co
[34:24] Speaker 2: substantial with each other.
[34:26] Speaker 5: Okay. As I said, I'm not Catholic.
[34:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, but Protestants accept the nicing Creed as well.
[34:32] Speaker 6: I'm not Protestant.
[34:33] Speaker 2: I'm asking you if you accept what I just said.
[34:38] Speaker 5: Do I accept from their point of view their stance?
[34:41] Speaker 2: Do do you accept the nice in Creed?
[34:46] Speaker 6: What?
[34:46] Speaker 1: Folks, We'll make this simple as possible. Do you believe
[34:49] Speaker 1: that the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and the Father are
[34:52] Speaker 1: all one God?
[34:58] Speaker 6: No?
[35:00] Speaker 1: They're not a Trinitarian?
[35:01] Speaker 5: Cool?
[35:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, nope, welcome to the Polytheism. And big w for
[35:07] Speaker 1: not believing in Trinity. I guess sure our next one?
[35:13] Speaker 4: That was that all about?
[35:15] Speaker 1: I think he's confused or he got appear by accident.
[35:18] Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll get Servant of Lucifer in here.
[35:20] Speaker 1: How are you doing, servant, Hi, I'm doing fine.
[35:24] Speaker 5: Thank you.
[35:25] Speaker 1: How about you doing well? Servant? Are you at least eighteen?
[35:28] Speaker 1: And do you believe in the Trinity?
[35:31] Speaker 2: There's no way he believes in the Trinity.
[35:33] Speaker 11: Yes, I am twenty two and I do not believe
[35:37] Speaker 11: in the Trinity. I'm a former Christian and a former Trinitarian.
[35:42] Speaker 11: I came up here just because I went.
[35:44] Speaker 1: Okay, thanks for being here, love and appreciate you. But
[35:48] Speaker 1: this is a debate, and we're here for debates only, friends.
[35:52] Speaker 2: I've never met a Trinitarian that would call himself servant
[35:55] Speaker 2: of Satan.
[35:55] Speaker 4: By the way, someone, there's gonna be one out there.
[35:58] Speaker 4: Come on, this is gonna be a weird, really weird
[36:00] Speaker 4: Christian somewhere else there.
[36:01] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[36:02] Speaker 1: Well, I thought, well, maybe he's he's ripping on the
[36:05] Speaker 1: goofy idea that because revelation Jesus says that he is
[36:08] Speaker 1: the bright morning Star, that he just has a weird interpretation.
[36:11] Speaker 1: But that's okay.
[36:13] Speaker 7: X or.
[36:13] Speaker 2: How do you feeling, a man? You've seen it all?
[36:17] Speaker 4: Good?
[36:17] Speaker 1: How are you doing well? Thanks for asking? Extra, are
[36:20] Speaker 1: at least eighteen? And do you believe in the trinity?
[36:24] Speaker 4: Indeed, I'm over eighteen my Catholic.
[36:28] Speaker 1: Cool and so I being at your Catholic I assume
[36:31] Speaker 1: you believe in trinity then indeed, okay.
[36:35] Speaker 12: Comes with the territory.
[36:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it? Go ahead?
[36:40] Speaker 5: Sorry?
[36:41] Speaker 2: Oh, do you think there's one god?
[36:43] Speaker 3: X or?
[36:48] Speaker 4: Yes?
[36:48] Speaker 13: And no kind of like one?
[36:50] Speaker 5: What does that mean?
[36:51] Speaker 4: When you're talking about divine entity?
[36:54] Speaker 2: You would be burned at the stake about what a
[36:56] Speaker 2: thousand years ago?
[36:58] Speaker 3: Right?
[37:00] Speaker 6: Don't live a thousand years ago?
[37:01] Speaker 2: Well, you're lucky. I'm saying the Catholic. If you're Catholic,
[37:04] Speaker 2: they would burn you at the stake for not unyieldingly
[37:08] Speaker 2: saying that there's one guy. Okay, right, but so you
[37:12] Speaker 2: think there's one guy?
[37:13] Speaker 12: Right, Lots of terrible things happened like a thousand years ago, yeah.
[37:18] Speaker 2: Including the Catholic Church. But yeah, okay, what.
[37:21] Speaker 12: You mean a bunch of other things?
[37:23] Speaker 3: Right?
[37:23] Speaker 2: So you're in one sense, are you Catholic?
[37:26] Speaker 4: I got to ask, yeah, because the nice thing creed
[37:30] Speaker 4: begins with the phrase I believe in one God.
[37:37] Speaker 12: Okay, so uh yeah, I'm Catholic because that's why I
[37:41] Speaker 12: was brought up. I don't think there's anything in Custholicism
[37:44] Speaker 12: that allows you not to have your own thoughts about things. No,
[37:48] Speaker 12: these days, especially in twenty twenty five, without being but.
[37:51] Speaker 2: Wait, who's telling you that?
[37:52] Speaker 3: Right?
[37:53] Speaker 2: They they excommunicate people. What are you talking about?
[37:58] Speaker 4: These are dogs? These are these are dogmatic statements with
[38:01] Speaker 4: the Catholic Church. You are in fact obliged as a
[38:04] Speaker 4: Catholic to believe that there's only one God.
[38:09] Speaker 12: Hey, like, who's been excommunicated this on this topic?
[38:13] Speaker 1: And when quite a few of them the earliest is
[38:16] Speaker 1: probably Arius and his followers, if they were caught with
[38:20] Speaker 1: any of his writings, according to the Edict of three
[38:24] Speaker 1: twenty five, would be executed.
[38:26] Speaker 12: Of course, like the nice in Creed where all the
[38:29] Speaker 12: Christmas punched out Arias over a theological dispute, which is
[38:33] Speaker 12: one of my favorite little images.
[38:36] Speaker 8: But in so the earliest but the most reason.
[38:41] Speaker 2: And that's one of your favorite images, that Christian love
[38:44] Speaker 2: rite all that violence, right, you know the person you
[38:49] Speaker 2: disagree with, Yeah, like case.
[38:56] Speaker 12: Yeah, I think it's kind of amusing, especially the way
[38:58] Speaker 12: it was depicted.
[39:00] Speaker 2: Murals, Okay, that's weird. But anyways, you believe in there's one,
[39:06] Speaker 2: that there's one God, right, No, okay, so then you're
[39:10] Speaker 2: not a Trinitarian next.
[39:12] Speaker 4: Okay, w.
[39:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly certainly not a Catholic, but who don't know. Oh,
[39:21] Speaker 1: go ahead, Dalton.
[39:23] Speaker 4: Oh let's say. Also, just for funzies, the whole Saint
[39:25] Speaker 4: Nicholas uh bitch slapping areas over there. That's not a
[39:29] Speaker 4: true story. It's a legend.
[39:32] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[39:32] Speaker 1: I heard. There's some debate over what really happened there,
[39:37] Speaker 1: and it's still it's still a fun thing to uh
[39:41] Speaker 1: to imagine there. There are quite a few writings about
[39:46] Speaker 1: the icy and council, but I don't know who specifically
[39:50] Speaker 1: would have been credited with with actually saying that for
[39:54] Speaker 1: the first time. It's just kind of widely circulated. Let
[39:57] Speaker 1: me grab we've got somebody.
[40:00] Speaker 4: They certainly don't make Catholics like they used to.
[40:02] Speaker 1: I'll just say that, no, they really don't. Well they
[40:05] Speaker 1: I mean shit, they used to burn people at the
[40:07] Speaker 1: steak that's for sure. Now they can just believe what
[40:09] Speaker 1: they want. This is wild, wild, wild West out here,
[40:13] Speaker 1: Shadow Slay, Thank you for the our supertest. So they
[40:15] Speaker 1: keep hearing from Christians that morals come from God. But
[40:17] Speaker 1: if that's true, then where are all the atheist riots?
[40:22] Speaker 1: Where's all this immorality from atheists? I keep hearing about? Yeah,
[40:25] Speaker 1: because like atheists aren't the ones getting together having church,
[40:28] Speaker 1: having counsels dictating what you believe, and like slapping each other,
[40:33] Speaker 1: or at least the creating stories about glorified violence during
[40:39] Speaker 1: such councils. Oh my goodness. All right, we've got somebody
[40:44] Speaker 1: waiting in the YouTube queue. Let me bring them in
[40:48] Speaker 1: and then we'll double check that all of the the
[40:51] Speaker 1: audio works properly.
[40:55] Speaker 5: Welcome in.
[40:56] Speaker 1: Good question. Oh on second, not showing on the screen. No,
[41:02] Speaker 1: you are on the screen. Give me one moment. Get
[41:06] Speaker 1: you situated. I can see you on the big screen.
[41:10] Speaker 1: I don't see you on the vertical screen just yet.
[41:12] Speaker 1: That's my fault for having you in kind of a
[41:14] Speaker 1: weird location. So I apologize for that. Good eventually, there
[41:19] Speaker 1: we go. Now we got you. Okay, we're almost there.
[41:25] Speaker 1: Good question. Hold on all right? We should be able
[41:27] Speaker 1: to hear you now.
[41:30] Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I'm an atheist to begin with.
[41:34] Speaker 5: Oh, I think you.
[41:35] Speaker 3: Are not correct at saying that the Trinity is ill logical.
[41:39] Speaker 3: I think it's very logical.
[41:40] Speaker 1: Why are you debating the Trinity if you don't believe
[41:42] Speaker 1: in it?
[41:44] Speaker 3: Oh? Because you know if you're going to do Sorry,
[41:47] Speaker 3: am I supposed to hear him?
[41:48] Speaker 2: Or I'm supposed to get on YouTube?
[41:50] Speaker 1: Oh you can't hear him.
[41:52] Speaker 4: Nope, I can't hear neither one of you.
[41:55] Speaker 2: No, I can't hear him.
[41:56] Speaker 4: Nope, not a thing.
[41:58] Speaker 1: Okay, what about now? Say that? I say that like
[42:01] Speaker 1: a good question.
[42:02] Speaker 3: I'm saying things just that's good.
[42:06] Speaker 4: Yes.
[42:07] Speaker 14: Yeah, If you're going to a debate Harry Potter, you
[42:10] Speaker 14: need to believe about their ideas about.
[42:13] Speaker 3: Time travel and magic. And dragons and all that stuff.
[42:17] Speaker 4: Right, So no, I mean, are you have you never been?
[42:24] Speaker 4: Have you ever never been? Part of a fan base.
[42:26] Speaker 4: There are plenty of people who are like hardcore fans
[42:28] Speaker 4: of the Harry Potter series who don't really believe in magic,
[42:32] Speaker 4: and yet they will debate like certain topics within the
[42:35] Speaker 4: Harry Potter like lore and canon all the time. So no,
[42:38] Speaker 4: you don't have to be a member in order to
[42:42] Speaker 4: or believe in those things in order to debate them.
[42:46] Speaker 3: Correct.
[42:47] Speaker 14: Yeah, I'm not saying truly believe, but at least you
[42:49] Speaker 14: need to speak in their language. Right, I'm an atheist.
[42:55] Speaker 14: I don't believe in magic and gods, et cetera. But
[42:58] Speaker 14: I think also the trinity is very well defined. It
[43:03] Speaker 14: is logical within the magical quote unquote terms of the book.
[43:09] Speaker 2: Right, what about what about in terms of first order
[43:13] Speaker 2: logic or like classical logic or standard logic that they
[43:15] Speaker 2: teach in schools.
[43:18] Speaker 3: Perfect that that's the nice question.
[43:21] Speaker 14: I was hearing some minutes ago that the word essence
[43:25] Speaker 14: was being used. I think that that term is essential,
[43:30] Speaker 14: you know, to say it's.
[43:31] Speaker 2: Not a logical You know that the term essence is
[43:33] Speaker 2: not a logical term. It's a metaphysical term. It is
[43:37] Speaker 2: not Ye, we don't need to talk about we don't
[43:40] Speaker 2: need to talk about essences. I'm asking if you formalize
[43:43] Speaker 2: the statements in the doctrine of the Trinity, do you
[43:46] Speaker 2: get inconsistency?
[43:48] Speaker 6: Right?
[43:49] Speaker 14: Yeah, that's that's what I was preparing to refer to. Yeah,
[43:52] Speaker 14: if you use the term essence and the conceptual term
[43:58] Speaker 14: but essences, or you can say that Jesus is one
[44:02] Speaker 14: hundred percent God, the Father is one hundred percent God,
[44:08] Speaker 14: but God is not Jesus, God is not the Father.
[44:15] Speaker 1: Which is the violation of the laws of logic.
[44:19] Speaker 15: Or you get through godka from from the point of
[44:24] Speaker 15: view that you you want to say A is equal
[44:27] Speaker 15: A and A is not B right, one hundred percent,
[44:30] Speaker 15: there's violation.
[44:32] Speaker 1: That's what we're saying.
[44:34] Speaker 2: Are you a trinitarian?
[44:36] Speaker 5: So no, he said, I'm an idea.
[44:39] Speaker 14: To begin right, So, but that that's why I'm saying
[44:43] Speaker 14: that the term essence is important here because.
[44:47] Speaker 4: I don't think it is.
[44:49] Speaker 2: It's not important to God at all.
[44:51] Speaker 1: It's a distraction from the actual logical problem. If anything,
[44:55] Speaker 1: it's not important at all.
[44:56] Speaker 3: But remember we're talking about Potter. Magic does not.
[45:01] Speaker 14: Exist for you and for me, But it exists for
[45:05] Speaker 14: them and they are talking about their book, and we
[45:07] Speaker 14: need to talk about that.
[45:08] Speaker 4: No, I'm part of the Harry Potter fandom. It's not
[45:12] Speaker 4: real in thedest bit when I when I ever I
[45:15] Speaker 4: talk about this topic with the like fellow fans.
[45:21] Speaker 2: Let me just give that.
[45:23] Speaker 14: Let me just give an argument that if you're going
[45:25] Speaker 14: to talk about Harry Potter, you deny the existence.
[45:28] Speaker 3: Of dragons all the time the time, yes, or you
[45:32] Speaker 3: talk about the book.
[45:35] Speaker 14: Oh my goodness, that that's what I'm trying to do here.
[45:38] Speaker 3: Very very okay.
[45:39] Speaker 2: Let me just give you an argument. Let's just let's
[45:41] Speaker 2: just get in the argument all right. On Christianity, Is
[45:44] Speaker 2: there one God?
[45:47] Speaker 15: Yes, there is in the idea of God?
[45:51] Speaker 2: Is you don't need you can just say yes, you
[45:53] Speaker 2: don't need to explain. The next question is is that
[45:56] Speaker 2: one God? Does that one God have a mother?
[45:59] Speaker 3: No?
[46:00] Speaker 2: Okay, does Jesus have a mother?
[46:04] Speaker 6: Yes?
[46:05] Speaker 2: All right, so Jesus is not God? Done false that
[46:10] Speaker 2: that's just a standard form where you have X has P.
[46:14] Speaker 2: Why doesn't have P? Therefore X is not why?
[46:19] Speaker 14: It's because you are saying that A is full A
[46:22] Speaker 14: in this case, one of those a's is the essence
[46:25] Speaker 14: of a.
[46:30] Speaker 2: Look, if I say no, essence does not fix the
[46:33] Speaker 2: problem at all, because you can formalize it with variables. Right,
[46:36] Speaker 2: it's with look, very basic letters. The X has P?
[46:40] Speaker 2: Why doesn't have P? Therefore X is not why I
[46:45] Speaker 2: have a wife. You don't have a wife. Therefore I
[46:48] Speaker 2: am not you easy, Okay, I don't see why.
[46:52] Speaker 1: It's still hard.
[46:54] Speaker 14: Okay, I'm going to translate it so so you can't
[46:57] Speaker 14: understand what what is that I'm thinking? Uh? Think about
[47:00] Speaker 14: the world pasta? Right, you can go to a store,
[47:04] Speaker 14: you can buy and buy a pound of flour. You
[47:07] Speaker 14: can grab water.
[47:09] Speaker 3: You mix them up and you create pasta.
[47:12] Speaker 5: Right, because pasta does God have parts?
[47:17] Speaker 3: You can take a picture of pasta and you can
[47:19] Speaker 3: eat pasta.
[47:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, you've just described something that has parts.
[47:24] Speaker 4: Yeah, and yes, yes, you have parts in order to
[47:28] Speaker 4: make pasta. And then classical God doesn't have parts because
[47:34] Speaker 4: he has an absolute unity.
[47:37] Speaker 3: Okay, let's talk about parts.
[47:40] Speaker 14: Think about your fingers you.
[47:44] Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, It's nothing about the content, about
[47:47] Speaker 2: what the words mean. It's all about the form. It's
[47:49] Speaker 2: all about the variables. Right, do you accept the.
[47:52] Speaker 3: I want to talk about that.
[47:53] Speaker 2: I don't want to hear anything about essence. You better
[47:56] Speaker 2: use variables. Right, I'll repeat it again. It's gonna use
[48:01] Speaker 2: if X, If X has P, why doesn't it P
[48:05] Speaker 2: is therefore x y? Or is X not y?
[48:10] Speaker 3: It's x prime is equal to X capital X.
[48:15] Speaker 2: You're changing my goal. Don't change it.
[48:18] Speaker 14: Yeah, that's that's the point that I'm trying to make
[48:22] Speaker 14: here about your point.
[48:24] Speaker 2: Respond to what I'm saying.
[48:27] Speaker 3: Okay, you're using a different logic than they are using.
[48:31] Speaker 1: Were you using were using the three standard laws of logic?
[48:36] Speaker 1: Then again, you can't get through the trinity without inventing new.
[48:40] Speaker 3: Logic exactly exactly.
[48:45] Speaker 1: So the point stands then that my my actual points
[48:49] Speaker 1: been on the screen the entire time, that the trinity
[48:52] Speaker 1: is ill logical, incoherent gibberish. If there's another law of
[48:58] Speaker 1: logic outside of the three laws of life, why would
[49:00] Speaker 1: I accept it?
[49:02] Speaker 14: Okay, if you're going to talk about Harry Potter, and
[49:05] Speaker 14: you and you during your whole discussion of about Harry Potter,
[49:10] Speaker 14: it keeps you applied the same way of thinking. You're
[49:14] Speaker 14: gonna get booted out of the discussion about Harry Potter, Right, like.
[49:19] Speaker 2: We're about to boot you out kind of like that.
[49:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. No, I mean, h all right,
[49:25] Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to do any more of
[49:28] Speaker 1: this in defense of the Christian's nonsense anymore. Why why
[49:34] Speaker 1: are atheists trying to justify the irrational nature of the Trinity.
[49:38] Speaker 1: It's well, if I remember correctly, I think Good Question
[49:41] Speaker 1: believes in like the Eastern Well shit, is he an atheist?
[49:45] Speaker 1: There is somebody else that emailed me under the name
[49:48] Speaker 1: Good Question that I think believes in some sort of
[49:51] Speaker 1: Eastern mysticism, and some of the Eastern mysticism hold to trinity.
[49:56] Speaker 1: So I think we might have tickled somebody's.
[50:00] Speaker 13: You know.
[50:02] Speaker 5: That the other spot.
[50:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, anyways, I don't know why, but for some reason,
[50:09] Speaker 1: the Christians aren't aren't requesting up today. Friends. The live
[50:12] Speaker 1: is just at the beginning. If you're watching this and
[50:16] Speaker 1: you're a Christian, we want to talk to you about
[50:18] Speaker 1: the Trinity. You can join using the link on the
[50:20] Speaker 1: screen or using the guest request button on TikTok. If
[50:24] Speaker 1: you're watching on YouTube, there's a clickable link in the
[50:27] Speaker 1: description of the video. You don't have to type it in.
[50:29] Speaker 1: It's tiny. Do ccpord slash dz guest. You'll be able
[50:33] Speaker 1: to join up, just like you are on TikTok or
[50:35] Speaker 1: any other social media app. You don't have to sign
[50:38] Speaker 1: up for anything. You don't have to give me your
[50:40] Speaker 1: email address or nothing like that. You'll pop your right
[50:42] Speaker 1: into the conversation. Everyone can hear you. You can hear
[50:45] Speaker 1: everyone else. You don't have to have TikTok. If you're
[50:48] Speaker 1: watching on TikTok, I get it. It's it's scary talking
[50:51] Speaker 1: about something that you know is inherently illogical. I wouldn't
[50:54] Speaker 1: have wanted to do it when I was a Christian either.
[50:57] Speaker 2: Well you know what, Oh go ahead, go ahead, Sorry.
[51:00] Speaker 1: Oh there, Terry, Thank you for the tien that I
[51:01] Speaker 1: was super chat Terry says, I ran into a Christian
[51:03] Speaker 1: at the grocery store who gave me a list of
[51:05] Speaker 1: verses and had a short debate because I'm horrible, but
[51:09] Speaker 1: I did see her change into a pretzel quite predictably.
[51:13] Speaker 1: Thanks justin, Terry, I love to hear it. That's news
[51:16] Speaker 1: to my ears. Thank you for putting some pretzels on
[51:18] Speaker 1: the shelf at the grocery store. Were you saying there, Danny?
[51:22] Speaker 5: You know? Yeah?
[51:23] Speaker 2: And I want to encourage If you don't know how
[51:25] Speaker 2: to defend the trinity logically or philosophically, that's okay. We
[51:28] Speaker 2: can do it biblically, right, we don't. Some people are
[51:33] Speaker 2: not good at philosophy, right, some people are not good
[51:36] Speaker 2: at Bible. We can do either of them. So if
[51:38] Speaker 2: you want to, we can actually show that, especially when
[51:43] Speaker 2: you take the Gospels. The Gospels isn't explicitly Trinitarians. I
[51:47] Speaker 2: think the trinitarian I think that we agree that, let's say,
[51:52] Speaker 2: an Arian position might be stronger than a Trinitarian position
[51:55] Speaker 2: because the way that Jesus relates to the Father seems
[51:59] Speaker 2: very subborting.
[52:01] Speaker 4: Oh yeah. When the last guest said that the trinity
[52:04] Speaker 4: makes sense within the scope of the book, I was like,
[52:07] Speaker 4: oh my god, no, no, it does not.
[52:12] Speaker 5: Well.
[52:12] Speaker 1: I think we almost had a guess that it dropped out.
[52:14] Speaker 1: I don't know why focal focal point came back. I'm
[52:17] Speaker 1: turning to get the feeling that focal is a patrol focal.
[52:20] Speaker 1: I thought you said you didn't believe in trinity.
[52:22] Speaker 5: No, sir, I'm not a troll.
[52:24] Speaker 10: I would just request that when you want to discuss
[52:27] Speaker 10: a trinity at a different aspect from the Bible is
[52:30] Speaker 10: in a scientific point of view, please tag me. I'm
[52:34] Speaker 10: not here to discuss a theological Christian Catholicism type point
[52:42] Speaker 10: of view specifically, so.
[52:47] Speaker 2: Your invitation will be in the mail.
[52:48] Speaker 3: All right.
[52:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the term trinity only makes sense. The
[52:54] Speaker 4: Trinity only makes sense within the framework of Christianity, like
[52:57] Speaker 4: talking about the Trinity in any other context just is
[53:00] Speaker 4: not even more logical.
[53:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to make up new forms of logic, which,
[53:06] Speaker 1: now that I got Danny here, I want to ask Danny.
[53:08] Speaker 1: I watched you a long time ago, absolutely roast inspiring
[53:12] Speaker 1: philosophy on the Trinity, and it was it was really
[53:14] Speaker 1: fun to watch. I can tell that you were really
[53:16] Speaker 1: get under his skin. But towards the end of it,
[53:19] Speaker 1: he became honest and mentioned that you have to abandon
[53:22] Speaker 1: the classical laws of logic to get into the Trinity.
[53:25] Speaker 1: And he said he adopted this thing called Quine's logic,
[53:28] Speaker 1: And what the fuck is Quine's logic?
[53:31] Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a story there. So first of all,
[53:35] Speaker 2: Quine accepts classical logic, so that's the first mistake. So
[53:39] Speaker 2: then he tried to clean it up and said, oh,
[53:41] Speaker 2: I didn't mean quine, I meant clean cleans logic. Now,
[53:46] Speaker 2: cleaning and logic is essentially what they call a three
[53:50] Speaker 2: value logic, and it doesn't help him at all. And
[53:53] Speaker 2: it's not hard to understand in classical logic when you
[53:57] Speaker 2: have a proposition. So if I say it's raining outside,
[53:59] Speaker 2: it's either true or false. Right, there's only two options,
[54:02] Speaker 2: two values. Either that statement is true or false. A
[54:06] Speaker 2: three value logic, there's a third option. It could be indeterminate,
[54:09] Speaker 2: it may not be it could be something other than
[54:11] Speaker 2: true or false. So that's except, that's except what it
[54:15] Speaker 2: means to say, I think the three value logic. It
[54:18] Speaker 2: doesn't even help them. So you don't see how that helps. Yeah,
[54:23] Speaker 2: it doesn't even help them.
[54:25] Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like the point of introducing clean
[54:29] Speaker 1: three value logic is just saying that there could be
[54:33] Speaker 1: the middle ground. So like the what's the third I
[54:36] Speaker 1: always get the name of the third law of logic
[54:39] Speaker 1: logic excluded middle. So basically the goal of clean logic
[54:43] Speaker 1: is to compete with the law of the excluded middle.
[54:46] Speaker 1: Is that what they're doing there?
[54:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's a subtle difference. Yeah, basically that the
[54:51] Speaker 2: technical term for specifically true if every prop is in
[54:53] Speaker 2: true or false. Is bivalance is related to excluded middle.
[54:56] Speaker 2: But yeah, the idea is that there are certain statements like,
[54:59] Speaker 2: for instance, take this proposition. This statement is false, period.
[55:03] Speaker 2: It's a weird like it's a paradox. So one solution
[55:07] Speaker 2: is that that proposition is neither true or false. You
[55:09] Speaker 2: have a third option and so you've deviated from by
[55:13] Speaker 2: balance if you count that as a proposition. So you know,
[55:17] Speaker 2: and I'll stay for the record, there are very intelligent
[55:20] Speaker 2: people that reject classical logic, right, But if you're if
[55:24] Speaker 2: you reject classical logic, it's usually because it's a weird,
[55:26] Speaker 2: weird paradox. It's very hard to deal with, and not
[55:29] Speaker 2: because of your religious tradition.
[55:31] Speaker 3: Right.
[55:32] Speaker 2: If you're abandoning a very standard, simple logic to make
[55:36] Speaker 2: sense of what someone said in some church two thousand
[55:40] Speaker 2: years ago, right, you're just coping right now. If you're
[55:46] Speaker 2: trying to advance the type of logic to accommodate very
[55:50] Speaker 2: strange paradoxes like the liar paradox, that's way more respectable.
[55:54] Speaker 2: So the thing is is that I think it's kind
[55:57] Speaker 2: of I think it's kind of annoying that if Trinitarians
[56:00] Speaker 2: flock to non classical logic just so they can say
[56:03] Speaker 2: I believe in one God. It's unmotivated, and it's just
[56:07] Speaker 2: kind of shows that it's all garbage.
[56:11] Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I agree for most people who don't do
[56:15] Speaker 1: philosophy like myself. Once you start saying, well you need
[56:18] Speaker 1: to introduce new laws of logic or get rid of
[56:21] Speaker 1: one of the laws of logic, I think most people
[56:24] Speaker 1: would look at that and be like, but why they
[56:26] Speaker 1: seem to work, you know what I mean?
[56:28] Speaker 2: Like, sorry, what were you saying?
[56:34] Speaker 4: I was just saying, Yeah, every single other factor of
[56:37] Speaker 4: my life, logic seems to just do the job. So
[56:40] Speaker 4: if this is the one area where I have to
[56:42] Speaker 4: get rid of logic and then create new logic, then
[56:45] Speaker 4: that just tells me that there's no reason to really
[56:47] Speaker 4: hold to it.
[56:48] Speaker 2: And one thing that really grinds my gears is they
[56:52] Speaker 2: don't give that. They don't accommodate other religions that way. Right, Suddenly,
[56:57] Speaker 2: when they criticize Islam, or they critic a form of polytheism,
[57:02] Speaker 2: suddenly all the laws of logic work, right, yeah, you know,
[57:07] Speaker 2: but they they don't work as well, and they modify
[57:11] Speaker 2: them when it comes to their own doctrine. It is
[57:14] Speaker 2: highly they have double standards, right, they hold Muslims to logic,
[57:19] Speaker 2: but then when they get criticized, they start reinventing logic.
[57:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a good point because like, if I
[57:25] Speaker 1: had anything in my worldview that was illogical, even something
[57:29] Speaker 1: simple as like quantum physics, they would like outright reject it, like, well,
[57:34] Speaker 1: that can't be real. We must appeal to this other,
[57:39] Speaker 1: you know, skyfairy that also needs a new different logic. Right,
[57:42] Speaker 1: So they kind of want to have their cake and
[57:45] Speaker 1: eat it too, and not going to work that way, right.
[57:49] Speaker 2: But yeah, if anybody doesn't want to do the logic stuff,
[57:51] Speaker 2: we can do the Bible stuff. So you can come
[57:54] Speaker 2: up and show us why, especially in the Gospels, why
[57:57] Speaker 2: anyone should believe that there's there's one God in three
[58:00] Speaker 2: persons and that Jesus is God. Right, there's good reasons
[58:04] Speaker 2: to think that if you read the Gospels, that Jesus
[58:07] Speaker 2: is not fully God.
[58:10] Speaker 1: Right, So I agree, Yeah.
[58:12] Speaker 2: You don't have to be a philosopher to come up here.
[58:14] Speaker 2: All you've got to do is know your Bible.
[58:16] Speaker 4: I'm gonna likit it for the audience. Any Christian out
[58:18] Speaker 4: there Hey, guys, John one to one does not prove
[58:21] Speaker 4: the trinity.
[58:23] Speaker 1: They're gonna try it, there really are. Let me grab
[58:25] Speaker 1: a couple of super chats. We're waiting for another guest
[58:27] Speaker 1: to load up. As weird, we almost never run out
[58:30] Speaker 1: of guests to talk to you. But I think I
[58:32] Speaker 1: think the Christians are kind of scared on this particular
[58:34] Speaker 1: cop because they know they can't defend it because they
[58:36] Speaker 1: don't understand it themselves. Quo Fi Travels says, Hey, Justin,
[58:40] Speaker 1: doesn't trinity violate the law of identity? One is not three,
[58:44] Speaker 1: Father is not son. Yeah, I mean that seems to
[58:48] Speaker 1: be the case, right. I think this is why Philo Dragon,
[58:53] Speaker 1: thank you for the confetti picked w Philo Dragon could
[58:55] Speaker 1: see it, Aaron. I think that's why I always point
[58:58] Speaker 1: out that according to Christian doctrine, g this is one
[59:00] Speaker 1: hundred percent God, because immediately when Christians start thinking about
[59:04] Speaker 1: the trinity, what they want to treat Jesus as though
[59:07] Speaker 1: he's part of God, like in their mind, they've already
[59:10] Speaker 1: rested on the idea that Jesus is part of a
[59:13] Speaker 1: three piece God. Right, So when you take them back
[59:17] Speaker 1: to the actual doctrine that teaches Jesus as one hundred
[59:20] Speaker 1: percent God. It kind of breaks them out of that
[59:21] Speaker 1: mindset of like, oh, yeah, that's right. I do believe
[59:25] Speaker 1: Jesus is one hundred percent God, not just part of God.
[59:28] Speaker 1: And then we can get into the issues of well,
[59:31] Speaker 1: he's not identical to God, so he can't be one
[59:33] Speaker 1: hundred percent God. He can only be part of God.
[59:35] Speaker 1: And then we we can picker over the heresy of partialism.
[59:38] Speaker 2: But yeah, and another way you can tell that they
[59:42] Speaker 2: have a go to read that super chat.
[59:44] Speaker 1: Sorry, oh sure, yeah, Hanks, thank you for the six
[59:48] Speaker 1: sixty nine says the Trinity is explained via hyperstatic union.
[59:53] Speaker 1: They were inseparable because they were all wearing nylon.
[59:56] Speaker 2: I love it.
[59:57] Speaker 1: I think that's that's in the books.
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: What that I love it. That's I'm going to take
[1:00:03] Speaker 2: to take that one.
[1:00:04] Speaker 4: Yeah. I think what we're missing here, guys, is that
[1:00:09] Speaker 4: God is kind of like the dragon balls. You know,
[1:00:12] Speaker 4: you get all the individual balls together and they formed
[1:00:15] Speaker 4: like the big old lowing dragon. That's how God works.
[1:00:18] Speaker 4: You bring Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father together,
[1:00:21] Speaker 4: and that's what God is.
[1:00:23] Speaker 2: Right.
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: Well, the other thing too, is you like you could
[1:00:27] Speaker 1: be a modalist and be like God is a transformer, right,
[1:00:30] Speaker 1: he's like optimist prime. But then it doesn't fix the
[1:00:34] Speaker 1: problem of like who is God talking to at the
[1:00:37] Speaker 1: baptism and who is Jesus praying to?
[1:00:41] Speaker 2: In your opinion, in your opinion, what's the best you
[1:00:46] Speaker 2: know pre nicea theological take on the Bible? Do you
[1:00:50] Speaker 2: think like out of the you know.
[1:00:54] Speaker 1: Definitely would have been adoptionism, So Jesus would be a
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: created being that like David was in his Unsolomon were
[1:01:01] Speaker 1: adopted sons of the Most High God. There are some
[1:01:05] Speaker 1: early people who would have believed that they were manifestations
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: of like an angelic figure, so like Melchizedek, according to
[1:01:16] Speaker 1: Jewish lore, was like an angelic figure that manifested on
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: the earth at different time periods. That's why it says
[1:01:23] Speaker 1: in the Book of Hebrews chapter seven that he doesn't
[1:01:26] Speaker 1: have any mother, doesn't have a father, doesn't have any lineage,
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: because he's just like this immortal entity that just shows
[1:01:33] Speaker 1: up on the earth randomly at certain times. But if
[1:01:37] Speaker 1: you read the Book of Enoch and the Enoch, his
[1:01:39] Speaker 1: birth narrative is told Melchizidek, and it turns out that
[1:01:43] Speaker 1: even though he's an eternal being. When he does manifest
[1:01:48] Speaker 1: on the earth, he does in fact go through a
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: natural process, like through a birth process. It just happens
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: to be that he pre existed his birth. But in
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: this model, Melchizedek is not a deity, it's an angel.
[1:02:02] Speaker 1: Now in like true Jewish fashion, the angels are like
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: second class deities. So it depends on how you conceptualize God.
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: Because all of the angels were considered elohem, I would
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: imagine the earliest Christians would have understood Jesus as one
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: of these angelic manifestations on the earth who was elevated
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: to be an adopted son of the Father.
[1:02:28] Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, I think if if anyone wants to get
[1:02:31] Speaker 4: like a really good idea about the early Christians would
[1:02:34] Speaker 4: have seen Jesus, their best text to me would be
[1:02:37] Speaker 4: the works of Philo of Alexandria.
[1:02:41] Speaker 1: Right, all right, well, we got a guest in the
[1:02:46] Speaker 1: in the box that looks like we'll bring them in. See, uh,
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: see what we get.
[1:02:50] Speaker 16: How you doing, guests, I'm doing super I'm on a
[1:02:54] Speaker 16: break right now, so I can probably apply quantum physics
[1:02:57] Speaker 16: to kind of ground the I guess the poeticism of
[1:03:02] Speaker 16: the Holy son was the father son and holy ghosts
[1:03:04] Speaker 16: I hear about it.
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: Are you a quantum physicist?
[1:03:09] Speaker 7: Yes, i am.
[1:03:10] Speaker 1: Do you think that quantum physics follows the laws of logic?
[1:03:14] Speaker 2: Well, actually we can apply computer architecture to.
[1:03:17] Speaker 1: It, right, But do you believe that quantum physics follows
[1:03:21] Speaker 1: the laws of logic? Like, do you think that quantum
[1:03:24] Speaker 1: physics is logical?
[1:03:25] Speaker 17: Well, it's a mathematic, so of course.
[1:03:28] Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so objective it's.
[1:03:30] Speaker 2: Based on it's based on, you know, quantifying data.
[1:03:33] Speaker 1: That's the whole point, right, So.
[1:03:35] Speaker 2: You didn't go ahead.
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: I'm just trying to I'm just trying to make sure
[1:03:41] Speaker 1: we're on the same pature. When you say that quantum
[1:03:44] Speaker 1: physics explains the trinity, we're at least agreeing at the
[1:03:48] Speaker 1: beginning that quantum physics is a logical system.
[1:03:51] Speaker 17: You would like to hear the equation or not?
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: No, No one cares about the equation, all right, Bye? Okay.
[1:04:00] Speaker 2: I really wanted to ask him what he meant by
[1:04:02] Speaker 2: saying that he's a quant physicist.
[1:04:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I should have asked him, because Quanta
[1:04:07] Speaker 1: not just requested up here a second ago. He actually
[1:04:09] Speaker 1: is working on his pH d in physics I.
[1:04:17] Speaker 4: Seriously doubted it.
[1:04:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, I dropped him too soon. We should have kept
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: him so we could hear the equation the I can
[1:04:24] Speaker 1: only see part of your name. It's the real something.
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: How are you doing?
[1:04:26] Speaker 4: Real good?
[1:04:28] Speaker 1: How are you doing good? Thanks for asking real? Are
[1:04:31] Speaker 1: you at least eighteen? And do you believe in the Trinity?
[1:04:35] Speaker 18: I'm thirty eight?
[1:04:36] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[1:04:37] Speaker 18: Cool, Yes I do.
[1:04:39] Speaker 2: You're talking.
[1:04:41] Speaker 18: Like the God, the Father, God, his Son, Holy Spirit?
[1:04:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
[1:04:48] Speaker 18: And do you think I just came in here?
[1:04:51] Speaker 2: Sorry?
[1:04:52] Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm not on the same page. Do you
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: think that the Trinity is logical or illogical?
[1:04:59] Speaker 18: So in real regards to the Trinity? Here to me logical?
[1:05:06] Speaker 5: Okay?
[1:05:06] Speaker 2: Do you do you think that? Because one of my
[1:05:10] Speaker 2: problems with the Trinity is that the Bible depicts Jesus
[1:05:14] Speaker 2: as you know, subservient, as learning, as vulnerable, tempted. These
[1:05:23] Speaker 2: are as partly physical, as temporal in time. You know,
[1:05:31] Speaker 2: these are attributes that God doesn't have. So it looks
[1:05:35] Speaker 2: like they're two different beings. It looks what there's not okay?
[1:05:41] Speaker 2: But is God like? Okay? Can God be tempted?
[1:05:48] Speaker 18: Jesus is God? So what you're what you're asking here?
[1:05:52] Speaker 18: Is so it's God.
[1:05:55] Speaker 4: As a very specific.
[1:05:57] Speaker 2: Question, Yeah, I was asking if God can be tempted? No, No,
[1:06:07] Speaker 2: was Jesus tempted?
[1:06:09] Speaker 18: Was Jesus tempted?
[1:06:11] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[1:06:12] Speaker 7: As in as in.
[1:06:16] Speaker 2: What verson is that?
[1:06:17] Speaker 4: Matthew, Matthew Chapter four, Jesus is tempted in the wilderness
[1:06:22] Speaker 4: by Satan.
[1:06:27] Speaker 18: Okay, what's your I'm sorry, I'm not saying a questions.
[1:06:29] Speaker 5: What's the question?
[1:06:31] Speaker 2: Well about this argument because it comes by the devil? Okay?
[1:06:34] Speaker 18: And then I'm sorry, I'm trying.
[1:06:35] Speaker 2: To it's like that, I'm gonna give an analogy. Analogy
[1:06:38] Speaker 2: or if you don't believe in the Holy Trinity, what
[1:06:39] Speaker 2: do you believe in? I'm confused. We just believe that
[1:06:42] Speaker 2: trinity is false?
[1:06:43] Speaker 18: You believe the Trinity is false? Why is it false?
[1:06:46] Speaker 2: Because of the argument about to give right that essentially
[1:06:50] Speaker 2: you're saying that Jesus, God, God, can't be tempted, right,
[1:06:54] Speaker 2: But then Jesus was tempted. So there's a problem. Okay,
[1:06:59] Speaker 2: does that make sense?
[1:06:59] Speaker 18: What's the problem?
[1:07:01] Speaker 2: Well, it's like saying, can the president of the United
[1:07:03] Speaker 2: States command the compare.
[1:07:05] Speaker 18: The president of Jesus Christ.
[1:07:06] Speaker 2: But go ahead, I'm giving you the logic right. The
[1:07:09] Speaker 2: logic is that if the president of the United States
[1:07:11] Speaker 2: has the power of the army and Joe Biden doesn't
[1:07:14] Speaker 2: have that power, what can we infer logically?
[1:07:16] Speaker 18: Okay, I have a question for you.
[1:07:19] Speaker 2: Can you answer mine and I answer yours.
[1:07:22] Speaker 18: I didn't pay that because that's no comparison to Trump.
[1:07:25] Speaker 4: You have to pay its. Inter argument if you're going
[1:07:27] Speaker 4: to have it is.
[1:07:27] Speaker 2: To understand the logic, right, Because logic works no matter
[1:07:32] Speaker 2: what you're talking about, if you're talking about God, if
[1:07:34] Speaker 2: you're talking about math, if you're talking about politics, Logic
[1:07:38] Speaker 2: still there. Right, doesn't just disappear when you're talking about politics,
[1:07:42] Speaker 2: you know.
[1:07:42] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:07:43] Speaker 2: So if you were to say the president of United
[1:07:45] Speaker 2: States has power over the army, Joe Biden doesn't have
[1:07:48] Speaker 2: power over the army, what can you infer logically from that?
[1:07:54] Speaker 8: Oh?
[1:07:54] Speaker 18: You guys are nonsense.
[1:07:56] Speaker 2: But it's like, but you can't even follow a basic
[1:07:58] Speaker 2: line of reasoning.
[1:08:00] Speaker 18: Because your comparison is there's zero chances to Jesus Christy,
[1:08:04] Speaker 18: I'm not gonna answer a stupid ask questions like that.
[1:08:06] Speaker 5: If you're going to talk about Jesus, talk about Jesus.
[1:08:08] Speaker 5: If you're gonna talk about Holy thing.
[1:08:11] Speaker 2: Look, you didn't understand the problem. I said, Jesus was tempted.
[1:08:14] Speaker 2: God can't be tempted, and you didn't understand the problem.
[1:08:17] Speaker 2: So I'm using an example to help you understand the problem,
[1:08:20] Speaker 2: and you're refusing to learn.
[1:08:24] Speaker 1: So no one's comparing Jesus to Oh well, there you go.
[1:08:30] Speaker 1: But have you considered vibes bro Oh well, well, we'll
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: try again. We've got another guest waiting to get in.
[1:08:41] Speaker 1: We'll grab our next guest here in just a second. Rory,
[1:08:45] Speaker 1: great to see you tonight. Thank you for the supergest
[1:08:47] Speaker 1: says the doug abides. He sure does. Everything is made
[1:08:49] Speaker 1: of stardust, so don't panic and keep a towel close
[1:08:52] Speaker 1: justin will help you understand what words mean words peace. Hey,
[1:08:58] Speaker 1: thank you so much. Rory. Great to see it, and
[1:09:00] Speaker 1: I agree. I'm a firm believer that words have meanings
[1:09:04] Speaker 1: and shadow says according to.
[1:09:06] Speaker 4: Read I will say he said, keep a tael close
[1:09:09] Speaker 4: by it. Have you read or watched Hitchhiker's Guide to
[1:09:12] Speaker 4: the Galaxy.
[1:09:13] Speaker 1: I saw the movie way back in the day, and
[1:09:16] Speaker 1: I've forgotten basically all of it.
[1:09:19] Speaker 2: I only remember the answer.
[1:09:23] Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh my god, you rewatch it? Or reread the book.
[1:09:26] Speaker 4: The books books my top to five favorite books.
[1:09:31] Speaker 2: Everyone loves that movie, but when I watched it, I
[1:09:33] Speaker 2: was like very confused the entire time.
[1:09:36] Speaker 4: That's the point.
[1:09:38] Speaker 2: Okay, okay, now I get it.
[1:09:41] Speaker 1: Shadow says, according to divine Transformers theory, the trinity is
[1:09:46] Speaker 1: logical because Orian packs, Optimist Prime, and Nemesis prime are
[1:09:53] Speaker 1: all the same person. Is that true in Transformers? That
[1:09:57] Speaker 1: can't be true, Shadow, I don't know about. I've got doubts. Shadow,
[1:10:02] Speaker 1: all right, last last one from a good question, I think,
[1:10:06] Speaker 1: good question, trying to rectify himself, says I'm one hundred atheists.
[1:10:11] Speaker 1: We believe you, good question. It's boring to insist on
[1:10:15] Speaker 1: the inexistence of magic in a Harry Potter convention. The
[1:10:19] Speaker 1: co host not justin, seems scared of listening to words
[1:10:23] Speaker 1: about myths. No, that wasn't that wasn't the point. Good question.
[1:10:26] Speaker 1: We were talking about logic. We were talking about logic.
[1:10:32] Speaker 1: Oh well, oh well, all right, let's grab our next guest.
[1:10:39] Speaker 1: Welcome in Tola.
[1:10:41] Speaker 6: Hello, thank you for having me.
[1:10:44] Speaker 1: One second. One, turn your echo cancelation on, and I'm
[1:10:49] Speaker 1: gonna turn your microphone up a little bit. All right,
[1:10:52] Speaker 1: We should be able to hear a little better.
[1:10:54] Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you, Hello, thank you for having.
[1:10:56] Speaker 1: Me, Tola. Are you at least eighteen? And do you
[1:11:00] Speaker 1: believe in the Trinity?
[1:11:03] Speaker 6: Yes, I'm twenty years old and I firmly believe in
[1:11:05] Speaker 6: the Trinity.
[1:11:06] Speaker 1: Cool. And do you believe that the Trinity is logical?
[1:11:12] Speaker 6: No?
[1:11:13] Speaker 1: Oh, okay, we agree then cool.
[1:11:16] Speaker 2: So why do you accept the trinity if it's not logical?
[1:11:20] Speaker 6: Because the very idea of comprehending the very nature of
[1:11:24] Speaker 6: something above you and trying to logic it out within
[1:11:27] Speaker 6: your own human head is futile.
[1:11:31] Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm asking where do you get the idea
[1:11:33] Speaker 2: that Jesus is fully God? Where do you get who?
[1:11:35] Speaker 2: Who told you that? And why did you believe them?
[1:11:39] Speaker 6: So it says, I think in the Book of John,
[1:11:44] Speaker 6: the very first verse opens up in the beginning of
[1:11:46] Speaker 6: the word and the word was God in the world
[1:11:48] Speaker 6: was with God? Right now?
[1:11:50] Speaker 4: I would love to break down I would love to
[1:11:53] Speaker 4: break down the Greek of that rest because we have
[1:11:55] Speaker 4: a huge problem here, Taula. So in the Greek of
[1:11:59] Speaker 4: the it doesn't actually say and the word was God
[1:12:04] Speaker 4: lacks the definite article you could probably get, and the
[1:12:07] Speaker 4: word was a god or the word was divine. The
[1:12:10] Speaker 4: word theos here is not one of It does not
[1:12:13] Speaker 4: indicate identity. It indicates quality.
[1:12:18] Speaker 6: Okay, so the thing is, but it does restate itself
[1:12:22] Speaker 6: three different times in the Greek, doesn't.
[1:12:23] Speaker 4: Not all in the Greek quest is in Arka in
[1:12:28] Speaker 4: the beginning in whole logos was the word chi ho logos,
[1:12:33] Speaker 4: and the word in Proston was with the God. It
[1:12:38] Speaker 4: uses the definite article that it is to he's with
[1:12:41] Speaker 4: the God. And then it says kai theos in hoole logos,
[1:12:44] Speaker 4: and divine was the word there. Theos is not indicating identity,
[1:12:50] Speaker 4: it's indicating the quality of the logos, that the logos
[1:12:54] Speaker 4: has godly nature, but that doesn't make him divine. This
[1:12:58] Speaker 4: is something that already existed with the Jewish backdrop of
[1:13:02] Speaker 4: the news estimate. If you read the works of Philo
[1:13:04] Speaker 4: of Alexandria, he often uses the word theaos in order
[1:13:07] Speaker 4: to describe the logos, but he didn't believe it was
[1:13:09] Speaker 4: like the God.
[1:13:13] Speaker 6: Indeed, well, ultimately, you know, I guess the whole thing
[1:13:18] Speaker 6: I can really argue with like the Greek, that's what
[1:13:20] Speaker 6: the Greek says that ultimately don't like to go against it.
[1:13:23] Speaker 6: But the thing is, why was it important that the
[1:13:27] Speaker 6: theos right, however you say it was noted as divine.
[1:13:34] Speaker 2: Well, there are different takes on that, but there's a
[1:13:37] Speaker 2: very big tradition that competed with trinitarianism and politically lost. Unfortunately.
[1:13:44] Speaker 2: They're called the quote aryan position of the unitarian position.
[1:13:47] Speaker 2: Right there, They basically accept a lot of the same
[1:13:51] Speaker 2: sort of soteriology as Trinitarians do.
[1:13:54] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:13:54] Speaker 2: That Jesus, you know, is not just a mere creation.
[1:13:58] Speaker 2: He's the firstborn of all creation. Right, He's the first
[1:14:01] Speaker 2: thing created. In fact, he's the only thing created before
[1:14:04] Speaker 2: everything else before time.
[1:14:06] Speaker 5: Right.
[1:14:07] Speaker 2: So Chamans denied the trinity, but they elevate Jesus above
[1:14:11] Speaker 2: everything else except the Father. Right, So it's important to
[1:14:16] Speaker 2: highlight that Jesus is distinct from the rest of creation
[1:14:20] Speaker 2: while being distinct from God.
[1:14:23] Speaker 4: Yeah, this is John's position, that Jesus is this, if
[1:14:27] Speaker 4: you will, almost archangelic, being the one who bears God's
[1:14:33] Speaker 4: name in the use of power.
[1:14:37] Speaker 6: Well, that's the thing, is like Jesus himself, right, is
[1:14:41] Speaker 6: Jesus himself in archana?
[1:14:44] Speaker 4: Well, the early Christians would have seen him as an
[1:14:47] Speaker 4: archangelic figure for sure, because the logos what Sean mentions
[1:14:52] Speaker 4: was an archangelic figure with thin Jewish and geology.
[1:14:56] Speaker 6: So then why is it that they call them lord.
[1:15:00] Speaker 4: Lord? Is just like David was called lord. Uh, you
[1:15:03] Speaker 4: could because of course in the Greek it's all curios,
[1:15:07] Speaker 4: but in the Hebrew you could have I don'nai which
[1:15:09] Speaker 4: is the word we use for for God, but adoni,
[1:15:13] Speaker 4: which is the way we use for like other lords.
[1:15:15] Speaker 4: Like King David was called that Sheba referred to him
[1:15:17] Speaker 4: as my lord.
[1:15:19] Speaker 6: Yeah, indeed. But the thing is, regardless, Jesus still had
[1:15:24] Speaker 6: this level of reverence, that is that was basically above
[1:15:28] Speaker 6: all kings, right.
[1:15:31] Speaker 4: Yeah, because he's the son of God in the text.
[1:15:35] Speaker 2: Remember remember the Arians thought that, in other words, you
[1:15:40] Speaker 2: can reject the trinity and still think that Jesus is
[1:15:43] Speaker 2: your savior.
[1:15:46] Speaker 6: Yeah, but the thing is you need you need to
[1:15:48] Speaker 6: think that Jesus is both your lord and savior. Though.
[1:15:51] Speaker 4: Yeah for that, yeah, that's perfectly acceptable. I mean sure,
[1:15:57] Speaker 4: if if King David, say, the town of people from
[1:16:02] Speaker 4: from a Canaan onslaught, he would be their adone, their lord,
[1:16:07] Speaker 4: and he would be there their Yeshua, their savior. So
[1:16:11] Speaker 4: being Lord and Savior is not indicative of being the
[1:16:14] Speaker 4: God of Israel, being.
[1:16:17] Speaker 6: The God of Israel. Right, But the thing is that
[1:16:19] Speaker 6: even then, like at least the interpretation of the worse
[1:16:23] Speaker 6: And I guess this is where you guys could answer this,
[1:16:26] Speaker 6: like for me, right in the in the Greek right
[1:16:28] Speaker 6: of what you've explained at the very beginning of John,
[1:16:32] Speaker 6: what is the Greek interpretation of what the word exactly is.
[1:16:36] Speaker 4: It's divine. Theos is used qualitatively. That's the in John
[1:16:43] Speaker 4: one one see when it says KOs in logos theos
[1:16:47] Speaker 4: here is quality is It's the quality of what the
[1:16:52] Speaker 4: logos is. It's not the identity of what the logos is.
[1:16:55] Speaker 4: It's not who he is, it's what he is. He
[1:16:57] Speaker 4: is divine. No, note that the the Jewish scholar file
[1:17:02] Speaker 4: of Alexandria actually spoke of the logos and even referred
[1:17:05] Speaker 4: to it as a due to us. Theos a second God,
[1:17:11] Speaker 4: a second God.
[1:17:12] Speaker 6: But the thing is a second God, right, And that's
[1:17:14] Speaker 6: that's the whole thing about it. The interpretation of what
[1:17:17] Speaker 6: that exactly means, right, is that Jesus Right? If we
[1:17:21] Speaker 6: were to follow the whole thing with you know, primarily
[1:17:25] Speaker 6: what Christians believe and there's only one God. Right, what
[1:17:29] Speaker 6: does it mean?
[1:17:29] Speaker 4: Well, today they believe that.
[1:17:31] Speaker 1: That says, yeah, hey, Tola, no one for some reason,
[1:17:35] Speaker 1: your microphone is so quiet, and I've cranked it up
[1:17:37] Speaker 1: to eight hundred percent and no one can still hear you.
[1:17:43] Speaker 6: So I have to get super close to the microphone. Yeah.
[1:17:47] Speaker 4: So I see what you're saying that within the modern
[1:17:51] Speaker 4: paradigm of Christianity there is this very strict monotheism. But
[1:17:56] Speaker 4: such a monotheism doesn't exist in the first century CEE.
[1:18:02] Speaker 4: At best. What you have is monologism where there are
[1:18:05] Speaker 4: many gods, many lords, but for us, yeah, you know,
[1:18:09] Speaker 4: there's just the one God.
[1:18:11] Speaker 3: Uh.
[1:18:11] Speaker 4: In other words, the God of Israel is put above
[1:18:14] Speaker 4: the rest, but it doesn't deny the existence of other
[1:18:17] Speaker 4: divinities such as angels, demons. Angels are seen as being
[1:18:23] Speaker 4: divine beings.
[1:18:26] Speaker 6: Yes, indeed they are right. But the thing is is
[1:18:29] Speaker 6: that ultimately, and well, I guess would you even could
[1:18:33] Speaker 6: you even make the argument that the whole thing of
[1:18:36] Speaker 6: what you say, like, okay, the thiosis is to basically
[1:18:41] Speaker 6: state the quality of the word or the quality of
[1:18:45] Speaker 6: that uh, that logos, right, that identity. Could you even
[1:18:50] Speaker 6: say that could be interpreted as, Okay, this is how
[1:18:55] Speaker 6: this is how much reverence that he has that is
[1:18:58] Speaker 6: of a divine nature? Or is it saying that the
[1:19:01] Speaker 6: word itself is divine? If that makes sense.
[1:19:05] Speaker 2: That's the point is that whatever nature he has, it's
[1:19:08] Speaker 2: not the same nature that the Father has.
[1:19:11] Speaker 4: It is it is like it like it? Of course, yes,
[1:19:16] Speaker 4: But what Denny's is saying is it's not equal in
[1:19:19] Speaker 4: an identity in essence to like what God has. So
[1:19:24] Speaker 4: the early Christians sought of Jesus as being the icon
[1:19:26] Speaker 4: theon the image of God. But the image of God,
[1:19:32] Speaker 4: God himself, it just it just means that he is
[1:19:35] Speaker 4: a reflection of what God is.
[1:19:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, have you have you ever I disagree, well, tota,
[1:19:42] Speaker 2: have you ever read the Nicene Creed by any chance?
[1:19:46] Speaker 6: Not exactly, not within its whole form?
[1:19:49] Speaker 2: Now, okay, but you do you recognize the phrase true
[1:19:52] Speaker 2: God from true God.
[1:19:56] Speaker 5: Right God?
[1:19:57] Speaker 6: Yes?
[1:19:58] Speaker 5: Right?
[1:19:59] Speaker 2: That word true means a lot right because it's specifying
[1:20:05] Speaker 2: it's the highest right, the highest authority, the highest form
[1:20:10] Speaker 2: of being God. Right, so it is to exclude any
[1:20:15] Speaker 2: lesser gods right, which might was on the table. Right
[1:20:21] Speaker 2: that Jesus was divine, But a lesser sort of being
[1:20:24] Speaker 2: than the True God, the Father.
[1:20:26] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:20:27] Speaker 2: So the Nicene crete explicitly says that their co substantial
[1:20:31] Speaker 2: true God from true God, whereas the Aryan position is
[1:20:35] Speaker 2: that you have true God creating the firstborn of all creation, timelessly,
[1:20:41] Speaker 2: right and still having extreme status to where it's divine,
[1:20:47] Speaker 2: higher than all the other angels and everything else in creation,
[1:20:50] Speaker 2: but doesn't meet the standard of quote true God.
[1:20:54] Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, you know, here's the thing. I do agree
[1:20:57] Speaker 6: with you, because we do believe in Orthodoxy that the
[1:21:00] Speaker 6: Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father. Right.
[1:21:03] Speaker 6: That is a thing. And the thing is that ultimately
[1:21:06] Speaker 6: it's not to deny that. Okay, yeah, these two things
[1:21:09] Speaker 6: came from the Father, right, But the thing is they
[1:21:11] Speaker 6: are still in essence God, right, true God from true God.
[1:21:16] Speaker 6: And that's where it's astonblished. You know. The sorry, I
[1:21:19] Speaker 6: didn't mean interrupt, Sorry.
[1:21:21] Speaker 1: One one second, Tola, I've kind of gotten lost in
[1:21:26] Speaker 1: the conversation. Are we are we at the point where
[1:21:29] Speaker 1: we're trying to convince him that the Bible teaches a trinity.
[1:21:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, we've been disgusting with the Bible, actually, says Jesus versus,
[1:21:37] Speaker 4: what Christianity says about Jesus.
[1:21:41] Speaker 1: Okay, So to be clear, a guest doesn't believe in
[1:21:44] Speaker 1: the trinity.
[1:21:46] Speaker 6: I do believe in absolutely.
[1:21:49] Speaker 1: I thought you said you didn't.
[1:21:50] Speaker 6: He doesn't.
[1:21:53] Speaker 1: Oh, I forgot that right.
[1:21:57] Speaker 2: Rather than going that route, since he still accepts it,
[1:22:00] Speaker 2: we could just look at the Bible and try to
[1:22:02] Speaker 2: show that there's no reason to think that there's a trinity,
[1:22:05] Speaker 2: even if it's ill logical.
[1:22:07] Speaker 6: Right, Well, how about when Jesus says I and the
[1:22:11] Speaker 6: Father are one? Yes?
[1:22:14] Speaker 4: Later on in the Gospel a Gospel of John, Jesus
[1:22:17] Speaker 4: praise that his prayer to God in chapter seventeen, where
[1:22:20] Speaker 4: he says, Father, let them be one, even as we
[1:22:24] Speaker 4: are one. So he says that the unity that he
[1:22:27] Speaker 4: desires for his followers is the same kind of unity
[1:22:30] Speaker 4: that him and the Father experience. So it's not unity
[1:22:33] Speaker 4: in essence, it's unity and like goal and purpose like
[1:22:37] Speaker 4: they're striving. Well, I think it's how are how are
[1:22:43] Speaker 4: we know?
[1:22:43] Speaker 6: How?
[1:22:43] Speaker 4: You can't? Just it says even as we are one,
[1:22:47] Speaker 4: even as we are one. So it is it is
[1:22:49] Speaker 4: directly comparing the type of unity experienced between the Father
[1:22:54] Speaker 4: and the Son as the type of unity experience between believers.
[1:22:58] Speaker 4: So are you and the rest of the Christians one essence?
[1:23:03] Speaker 4: Are you all one actual one Christian?
[1:23:07] Speaker 6: Yeah, you're not. We are. We are made to be
[1:23:11] Speaker 6: the body of the Christ if you were to take off.
[1:23:13] Speaker 2: But then if you if you count the way trinitarians do,
[1:23:16] Speaker 2: there's only one Christian on your view, since there's one essence.
[1:23:21] Speaker 6: Only one Christian in my view due to one essence
[1:23:24] Speaker 6: in what way? Like, what do you mean?
[1:23:25] Speaker 2: Because trinitarians want to say, or at least some of them do, right,
[1:23:29] Speaker 2: want to say that the reason why there's one God
[1:23:32] Speaker 2: is because the persons are caused substantial. There's one substance, Okay,
[1:23:38] Speaker 2: And then you're saying, well, look there's one substance essen
[1:23:41] Speaker 2: same thing.
[1:23:41] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:23:42] Speaker 2: Then you're saying, well, look, amongst the believers, that various
[1:23:45] Speaker 2: distinct persons that accept Christ, we are also one essence.
[1:23:50] Speaker 2: But you are billions of Christians, not one Christian. And
[1:23:54] Speaker 2: so if you use the same logic, if you use
[1:23:56] Speaker 2: the same counting, you get three gods.
[1:24:00] Speaker 6: Yeah, you get three gods. Whe they're all the same thing.
[1:24:04] Speaker 2: Okay, gave up prinitarianism.
[1:24:07] Speaker 4: Yeah, the three gods thing.
[1:24:09] Speaker 6: Is, here's the thing. We So trinitarianism accepts the idea
[1:24:14] Speaker 6: that there's three different godheads, but it's all the same.
[1:24:18] Speaker 2: No no, no, you say three gods and they don't
[1:24:21] Speaker 2: even accept that, by the way, but are the three gods.
[1:24:25] Speaker 6: Or no? No no, no no no. Then I then I
[1:24:27] Speaker 6: agree to something that like ultimately, I didn't mean to
[1:24:31] Speaker 6: basically what is fine?
[1:24:33] Speaker 2: What did you mean to say?
[1:24:36] Speaker 6: I meant that God has three different natures, right of
[1:24:41] Speaker 6: that's not what they.
[1:24:41] Speaker 1: Think either three natures, one nature.
[1:24:45] Speaker 2: It's one nature, one essence, one substance, one us.
[1:24:49] Speaker 6: Yes, but not three.
[1:24:52] Speaker 4: Sorry classicals, three different forms.
[1:25:00] Speaker 2: That's not the word for form, like morphe uh no,
[1:25:08] Speaker 2: Like what do you mean usia?
[1:25:13] Speaker 6: No, I'm saying that, like, there's three different forms of God,
[1:25:16] Speaker 6: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[1:25:18] Speaker 7: What do you mean by.
[1:25:20] Speaker 3: It?
[1:25:21] Speaker 6: Sounds like modalism is the same God, but it's just
[1:25:24] Speaker 6: comes in a different way. I guess you could.
[1:25:27] Speaker 2: Say that's compatible with heresy. Not exactly, that's what the
[1:25:32] Speaker 2: hair the modalists say that. They say the exact same thing.
[1:25:37] Speaker 4: Not that's patrick.
[1:25:42] Speaker 6: So how's that a heresy? I failed to understand.
[1:25:46] Speaker 2: Because you said that all that the sufficient conditions for
[1:25:49] Speaker 2: there being trinity is that there's one God, three forms, right, Yes,
[1:25:55] Speaker 2: all right, that's what it's Is it that a form
[1:25:58] Speaker 2: is not a person?
[1:25:59] Speaker 3: Right?
[1:26:01] Speaker 14: No?
[1:26:01] Speaker 4: Those are two different things.
[1:26:03] Speaker 6: No, two different things, I guess, And let me let
[1:26:06] Speaker 6: me define a different word for form. So I guess
[1:26:09] Speaker 6: you could say one God, three different aspects.
[1:26:18] Speaker 2: I think that it's just why don't you what's wrong
[1:26:21] Speaker 2: with you saying three persons or do you sense a problem?
[1:26:25] Speaker 6: No, it's a problem with three persons, because then that
[1:26:28] Speaker 6: means it's actually three different.
[1:26:30] Speaker 19: You're just a Titian, I'm telling you right now, at
[1:26:33] Speaker 19: least not a classical Trinitarian, because that is the what
[1:26:36] Speaker 19: Danny just expressed is the classical expression of Trinitarian one
[1:26:40] Speaker 19: God in three persons.
[1:26:44] Speaker 6: I think. I guess it all comes down to semantics.
[1:26:46] Speaker 6: The thing is we can all agree that even as
[1:26:49] Speaker 6: a whatever modern take or however you want to put
[1:26:51] Speaker 6: I'm not really familiar with this, it's one God, three
[1:26:54] Speaker 6: different things associated in that same God.
[1:26:58] Speaker 2: So you have to underst stand that there was a
[1:27:02] Speaker 2: lot of debate about what that urn thing is supposed
[1:27:05] Speaker 2: to be, whether it's a form, a mode, a hypostasis,
[1:27:08] Speaker 2: a person. Right, one will make you a heretic, the
[1:27:12] Speaker 2: other one will not.
[1:27:15] Speaker 4: What you believe is actually a lot closer to Mormonism
[1:27:17] Speaker 4: than classical Christianity.
[1:27:20] Speaker 6: I wouldn't say that, No, I don't think it's crazy
[1:27:24] Speaker 6: to say that God has three different forms of which
[1:27:26] Speaker 6: are all the same thing.
[1:27:28] Speaker 5: All Right.
[1:27:28] Speaker 2: Here, here's a question, here's the killer question. Who is God?
[1:27:36] Speaker 6: In a very literal sense and a very like in
[1:27:45] Speaker 6: a very literal sense, like who is God?
[1:27:48] Speaker 3: Right?
[1:27:48] Speaker 2: Like who is the president? It's Trump? Who is God?
[1:27:53] Speaker 6: Jesus?
[1:27:54] Speaker 2: All right? So the Father is not God?
[1:27:57] Speaker 6: No, the Father's gone to two.
[1:27:59] Speaker 5: Okay.
[1:27:59] Speaker 2: So if I say who is president and you say Trump, Biden,
[1:28:03] Speaker 2: and Vance, how many presidents.
[1:28:05] Speaker 4: Are there.
[1:28:07] Speaker 6: Different presidents?
[1:28:09] Speaker 2: There would be three different presidents? Right, yeah?
[1:28:12] Speaker 5: Okay.
[1:28:13] Speaker 2: Now if I ask who is God and you say Father, Son,
[1:28:15] Speaker 2: Holy Spirit, I can use the same logic, how many gods?
[1:28:19] Speaker 6: It's one God?
[1:28:21] Speaker 2: No, if you use the same.
[1:28:22] Speaker 6: Logic, except that's the thing, that's why it's not logical,
[1:28:27] Speaker 6: you get three different gods by technicality, but going against logic,
[1:28:30] Speaker 6: it's one God.
[1:28:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. So basically I think this kind of illustrates both
[1:28:37] Speaker 1: of our positions, which is one this is clearly three gods.
[1:28:44] Speaker 1: And we'll try that again. So it's it's three gods
[1:28:49] Speaker 1: and you're saying, well, it is one god if you
[1:28:52] Speaker 1: abandon logic, and alls we're saying is we can't see
[1:28:55] Speaker 1: a good reason to abandon logic. It seems like a
[1:28:58] Speaker 1: silly thing to do. And if you're willing to abandon
[1:29:01] Speaker 1: logic to believe in the Trinity, that's okay. We're just
[1:29:04] Speaker 1: letting people know. This is a public service, letting people
[1:29:07] Speaker 1: know that the Trinity is in fact illogical.
[1:29:11] Speaker 6: Okay, and you wouldn't be wrong. The thing is, nothing.
[1:29:13] Speaker 4: About the Trinity and unbiblical.
[1:29:17] Speaker 6: But that's the thing. Nothing about the Trinity necessarily makes sense, right.
[1:29:22] Speaker 6: The thing is that agree, what really comes down to it?
[1:29:27] Speaker 6: Go ahead?
[1:29:27] Speaker 2: Sorry, no, no, what really comes down to it? I
[1:29:29] Speaker 2: want to hear.
[1:29:31] Speaker 6: What really comes down to it is understanding that the
[1:29:34] Speaker 6: very nature of God within itself is something that's unexplainable
[1:29:37] Speaker 6: and really not definable.
[1:29:39] Speaker 2: But that you see, your Bible doesn't even teach it either.
[1:29:43] Speaker 6: It's not the matter of the Bible as a matter
[1:29:45] Speaker 6: of the church that was established by Christ.
[1:29:47] Speaker 2: Why do you trust their interpretation?
[1:29:50] Speaker 4: First off, that church doesn't exist, because.
[1:29:55] Speaker 2: Why do you trust their interpretation?
[1:29:57] Speaker 1: Well, he doesn't, he's not. Oh sorry, he does. I'm sorry,
[1:30:01] Speaker 1: I apologize.
[1:30:04] Speaker 6: Indeed, I trust then interpretation because that interpretation came from
[1:30:07] Speaker 6: the early church fathers of.
[1:30:09] Speaker 2: The Why do you trust the early church fathers?
[1:30:14] Speaker 6: Because that church that was the same one that God
[1:30:19] Speaker 6: established himself when he said, Peter, you'll be the rock
[1:30:22] Speaker 6: of the ship, build my church on.
[1:30:23] Speaker 2: Oh wait, okay, clearly, now before when a third of
[1:30:27] Speaker 2: the church was Rian, did God establish that?
[1:30:35] Speaker 6: If the third of the church was Aran? Did God
[1:30:38] Speaker 6: establish that?
[1:30:39] Speaker 4: Yes?
[1:30:40] Speaker 6: I don't think. Okay, I'm not familiar with the whole
[1:30:46] Speaker 6: like Aryan thing, but in terms of like, there's three different.
[1:30:50] Speaker 2: The doctrine of the Trinity was not codified until hundreds
[1:30:55] Speaker 2: of years later when Jesus died. Okay, that there was
[1:30:59] Speaker 2: a lot of theological trajectories, right, people go in all
[1:31:02] Speaker 2: sorts of directions. One of those trajectories was the Trinitarian position.
[1:31:06] Speaker 2: And right before three the fourth century, Okay, you had
[1:31:10] Speaker 2: two big groups, the Aryans and the Trinitarians. Now that the
[1:31:14] Speaker 2: Trinitarians won out in my opinion, right politically, Okay, when
[1:31:19] Speaker 2: I think the Aryans actually had a better arguments and
[1:31:23] Speaker 2: better biblical data. Now, what happens when a faction wins politically,
[1:31:27] Speaker 2: They erase the other side. They erased them, so they
[1:31:33] Speaker 2: burned everything they had to do, the exile, they excommunicated,
[1:31:37] Speaker 2: they suppressed, they persecuted all anti trinitarians. And these are
[1:31:41] Speaker 2: the people that you trust.
[1:31:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be sure, like even early church fathers
[1:31:46] Speaker 1: that you would recognize that are vital to the tradition,
[1:31:52] Speaker 1: they disagreed, right, justin Martyr says that we reasonably worship
[1:31:58] Speaker 1: him having learned that he is the son of the
[1:32:01] Speaker 1: True God himself, holding him in second place and the
[1:32:05] Speaker 1: prophetic spirit in third, meaning the son is subservient to
[1:32:10] Speaker 1: the Father.
[1:32:15] Speaker 6: More so. Okay, so the way that I don't think
[1:32:19] Speaker 6: so No, Like, here's the thing. I know that that's
[1:32:21] Speaker 6: what you're quoting, right, But the thing is something can
[1:32:24] Speaker 6: can still proceed from something else but still be equally
[1:32:27] Speaker 6: the same. You know, if the best example that I use,
[1:32:31] Speaker 6: at least when I'm trying to explain the at least
[1:32:33] Speaker 6: the thinking behind this, right, if you and yourself were
[1:32:36] Speaker 6: to have a son, right, and that son grows up
[1:32:39] Speaker 6: eventually he's going to be his own man. Right, You'll
[1:32:41] Speaker 6: always be his father, but essentially, when he becomes his
[1:32:43] Speaker 6: own man, he'll be equal to you. Right.
[1:32:46] Speaker 2: But I don't know why we're doing the logic again
[1:32:48] Speaker 2: because you're already getting up on the there's two men there,
[1:32:50] Speaker 2: but you're saying, in the case of God, there's be
[1:32:52] Speaker 2: one God. You're breaking. It goes back to why you
[1:32:54] Speaker 2: trust these.
[1:32:55] Speaker 6: Churchtly No no, no, no, no, no no wait wait wait,
[1:32:57] Speaker 6: because I can even explain this further. Right b chnicality, Right,
[1:33:01] Speaker 6: your son is you literally your No, no, no, that's
[1:33:10] Speaker 6: crazy people.
[1:33:11] Speaker 4: Say genetically speaking, I have half my father's half of
[1:33:16] Speaker 4: my DNA like chromosomes are my father's, but I'm not
[1:33:19] Speaker 4: my dad. I'm a distinct being a completely different person.
[1:33:23] Speaker 4: Like this is not not in the least analogous.
[1:33:28] Speaker 6: I'm saying that you are indeed your your own man,
[1:33:32] Speaker 6: but you are still the essence of your.
[1:33:34] Speaker 2: My opinion is that I don't know why we're reasoning
[1:33:36] Speaker 2: about this anymore. You've given up on the reason. I
[1:33:38] Speaker 2: want to know why you trust the church fathers.
[1:33:41] Speaker 4: Yeah. The church fathers, by the way, would say that
[1:33:43] Speaker 4: I have a different essence than my father because we're
[1:33:46] Speaker 4: two different beings.
[1:33:47] Speaker 6: So I oh, sure, right, But the thing is that
[1:33:52] Speaker 6: the reason why I trust, why I trust the Church
[1:33:55] Speaker 6: fathers in particular, like really going back into it. They
[1:34:00] Speaker 6: entire thing of the councils and the things leading up
[1:34:02] Speaker 6: to the early church. Right, we're all done and directed
[1:34:05] Speaker 6: by the Holy Spirit. Right.
[1:34:07] Speaker 2: Basically was Arius and part of the apostolic succession.
[1:34:14] Speaker 4: Arius Arius, the guy that kind was a bishop.
[1:34:20] Speaker 2: You know what, you're a o Right, you're an Eastern Orthodox.
[1:34:22] Speaker 2: You know what apostolic succession is, right, of course?
[1:34:26] Speaker 5: Right?
[1:34:27] Speaker 2: Did Arias have apostolic succession?
[1:34:30] Speaker 6: I don't know he did.
[1:34:32] Speaker 4: He was a bishop, did Okay? Yeah?
[1:34:36] Speaker 2: A third of the church that had apostolic succession, right,
[1:34:40] Speaker 2: was anti Trinitarian. That doesn't work for you.
[1:34:46] Speaker 6: Saint Peter was a Judy Judaizer in the early years
[1:34:49] Speaker 6: of the church. He was circumcising people who were trying
[1:34:52] Speaker 6: to become Christian.
[1:34:53] Speaker 4: Yeah, Paul was the one who invented a later form
[1:34:56] Speaker 4: of Christianity. All the original Apostles where Judaizer, so we
[1:35:00] Speaker 4: have no evidence of any of them teaching anything other
[1:35:03] Speaker 4: than Judaism outside of Paul.
[1:35:06] Speaker 1: Well, friends, this has been an interest conversation. Hazard's been
[1:35:09] Speaker 1: waiting in our queue for a while, and I want
[1:35:11] Speaker 1: to try to get to everybody. And I think this
[1:35:13] Speaker 1: conversation may have run its course. Sure, I'm not sure
[1:35:18] Speaker 1: there's much meat left on this.
[1:35:21] Speaker 6: I'd like to say one more thing before. I'd actually
[1:35:25] Speaker 6: like to say one more thing before, Like, you know,
[1:35:27] Speaker 6: I'm one to the next guests. I understand that there's
[1:35:29] Speaker 6: a line, but the entire idea of trying to sum
[1:35:35] Speaker 6: up and make a reasoning behind the very nature of
[1:35:37] Speaker 6: God past like past, basically what everything is. I used
[1:35:42] Speaker 6: to be very anti trinitarian myself until I realized that
[1:35:47] Speaker 6: I'm kind of stupid and I don't really know what
[1:35:50] Speaker 6: God is or really how like the nature of how
[1:35:53] Speaker 6: he works is. The thing is, when you try to
[1:35:55] Speaker 6: go down the line of justification and exact logical reason
[1:35:59] Speaker 6: for God, you won't find it.
[1:36:01] Speaker 2: Okay, I want the last word here. You're selling yourself short.
[1:36:04] Speaker 2: You're not that stupid because you recognize it's so logical.
[1:36:07] Speaker 2: You recognize it's illogical.
[1:36:10] Speaker 6: Right, But that's the thing.
[1:36:11] Speaker 2: You're almost there, right, you make you'll make a great atheist.
[1:36:16] Speaker 6: M you'll make a great atheist brother, like and again,
[1:36:21] Speaker 6: I do not mean to be disrespectful, and I do
[1:36:23] Speaker 6: not mean to be rude. Right, I mean this in
[1:36:25] Speaker 6: the most earnest way. Right, Atheism is death.
[1:36:31] Speaker 2: You know it looks like Christianity is dead. Right, It's
[1:36:36] Speaker 2: literally about a guy dying.
[1:36:38] Speaker 1: Is that certainly didn't happen? All right, listen to Thanks
[1:36:44] Speaker 1: for coming up, man.
[1:36:47] Speaker 4: Really, atheism is death is wild.
[1:36:50] Speaker 1: Just when all those fails assert the truthfulness of your claim,
[1:36:55] Speaker 1: whether it's true or not. We've got a super chat
[1:36:58] Speaker 1: from our friend Dalton. Thank you Dalton for this superchat.
[1:37:02] Speaker 1: Not that Dalton says, O primus, Transformers, activities, autism, Yes,
[1:37:08] Speaker 1: Orion pas, Optimists, and Nemesis are all the same version
[1:37:11] Speaker 1: of the same character. Orion was Optimist before he obtained
[1:37:15] Speaker 1: the matrix, and Nemesis is like him, but the zombie
[1:37:19] Speaker 1: Jesus version. There's a lot happening Dalton in that particular
[1:37:22] Speaker 1: super and I don't know if I if I can
[1:37:24] Speaker 1: parse all of it. There's a lot of Transformer lore
[1:37:27] Speaker 1: that I'm unfamiliar with, but we appreciate the transform in shadow.
[1:37:38] Speaker 1: Thank you for the super chat says. If you think
[1:37:40] Speaker 1: Transformers Trinity is wild, did you know that the ghost
[1:37:43] Speaker 1: of Stars, Scream possesses another Transformer and was resurrected by you.
[1:37:51] Speaker 1: Unicron did you mean unicorn? Or is Unicron in name
[1:37:55] Speaker 1: of something?
[1:37:55] Speaker 2: It's ic as unicorn.
[1:37:59] Speaker 4: Apparently it's un John, Yeah, Unicron is something I don't
[1:38:03] Speaker 4: I listen. I've only seen the live action films, and
[1:38:06] Speaker 4: not even all of that I saw. I'd like two
[1:38:08] Speaker 4: of them, but I'm pretty sure Unicron is something in
[1:38:11] Speaker 4: the the lore.
[1:38:12] Speaker 1: It was crazy, But thank you for the education chatow.
[1:38:15] Speaker 1: I appreciate that. And Aaron, welcome to the chat. Thank
[1:38:18] Speaker 1: you for the our super chat. My friend says, have
[1:38:20] Speaker 1: you realized that I use special spiritual logic or you
[1:38:24] Speaker 1: have to really? Yeah, listen that This is kind of
[1:38:27] Speaker 1: the whole point behind this topic is that in order
[1:38:29] Speaker 1: to get to the Trinity, you have to use special logic,
[1:38:33] Speaker 1: you have to abandon rational thinking. Thank you for that
[1:38:35] Speaker 1: super chat, Aaron, I appreciate that. And then we've got
[1:38:39] Speaker 1: one more. Well, we've got more, but last one for now, Jeric,
[1:38:42] Speaker 1: thank you for the one fifty pieces. Doug's powers nos
[1:38:46] Speaker 1: known bat nop. Doug's power knows no bounds. He is
[1:38:50] Speaker 1: the one that turns all creatures into stone through his power,
[1:38:54] Speaker 1: we all become one. In Doug a book of proofs
[1:38:58] Speaker 1: six one six. I like that one. That's the good one.
[1:39:01] Speaker 1: And remember, I mean theoretically, technically paper is made from
[1:39:06] Speaker 1: stone because it comes from the ground, and ground is
[1:39:09] Speaker 1: made from stone. It's a cycle, Doug. Doug is the
[1:39:12] Speaker 1: life of all things. Let's get Hazard into our chat.
[1:39:17] Speaker 1: Welcome in, Hazard.
[1:39:20] Speaker 4: How are you doing good?
[1:39:22] Speaker 5: Are you?
[1:39:23] Speaker 8: I'm doing pretty good?
[1:39:25] Speaker 1: Hazard? Are you at least eighteen? And do you believe
[1:39:28] Speaker 1: in the Trinity?
[1:39:31] Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm twenty nine. But I believe in the Trinity
[1:39:34] Speaker 8: quite different from the under guard that.
[1:39:35] Speaker 4: Was just up.
[1:39:38] Speaker 1: You believe in the trinity that is espoused by Christians.
[1:39:44] Speaker 8: I believe in what is established as the Bible.
[1:39:47] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're trinitarian Christian.
[1:39:50] Speaker 4: Yes, there's a problem here, Hazard, the Bible. How much.
[1:39:57] Speaker 8: What I'm saying is like there's many people who claim
[1:40:00] Speaker 8: the Christian name, but they'll have all different interpretations of
[1:40:03] Speaker 8: what they believe.
[1:40:05] Speaker 1: That's okay, Wait for Christian, You've got the right one.
[1:40:08] Speaker 1: I know every Christian we talked to is the only
[1:40:10] Speaker 1: one who got it right. So do you think that
[1:40:12] Speaker 1: the trinity is logical or illogical?
[1:40:15] Speaker 8: I don't believe that you can apply logic to something
[1:40:18] Speaker 8: that exists outside of time and space.
[1:40:21] Speaker 2: So you can't apply Wait, how many persons is God?
[1:40:27] Speaker 8: I believe it's three to act as one?
[1:40:29] Speaker 2: Are you using logic to count three persons? Got okay?
[1:40:37] Speaker 2: So you do apply logic to God. So we got
[1:40:39] Speaker 2: that done.
[1:40:41] Speaker 8: Yeah, I believe you.
[1:40:43] Speaker 2: Use the same logic that you count persons to count
[1:40:46] Speaker 2: God's right, because you're saying that Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit
[1:40:49] Speaker 2: are distinct. Therefore there's three persons, right, Well, if you
[1:40:53] Speaker 2: count the same way of a god's and how many
[1:40:55] Speaker 2: gods would there be three?
[1:40:58] Speaker 4: There you go.
[1:40:59] Speaker 8: But it also says and uh, you know that they're
[1:41:04] Speaker 8: the like authority level. And it was in the First
[1:41:09] Speaker 8: Corinthians and said it says that the Father is the
[1:41:13] Speaker 8: only God and all things that came through his son Jesus.
[1:41:17] Speaker 4: Yeah right, he used his son Jesus as like the
[1:41:21] Speaker 4: blueprint for creation. But I mean that doesn't that doesn't
[1:41:26] Speaker 4: get you to the trinity.
[1:41:28] Speaker 8: No, But if you read quarts one of second John
[1:41:35] Speaker 8: five seven, yeah, he says, just ali, there are three
[1:41:42] Speaker 8: that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and
[1:41:46] Speaker 8: the Holy Spirit. And these three are one, and there
[1:41:51] Speaker 8: are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit and
[1:41:55] Speaker 8: Water and Blood, and three agreed as one.
[1:41:59] Speaker 1: I'm gonna show you something on my translation says there
[1:42:02] Speaker 1: are three that testify for verse seven. Interesting, none of
[1:42:06] Speaker 1: that is in my Bible translation. Why do you think
[1:42:08] Speaker 1: that is?
[1:42:13] Speaker 8: It's seven through eight.
[1:42:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, well seven is the one you want. But it's
[1:42:18] Speaker 1: not going to be an aid either. Just so we're
[1:42:20] Speaker 1: clear on this, there's three that testify, the Spirit, the Water,
[1:42:25] Speaker 1: and the Blood, and these three agree.
[1:42:28] Speaker 4: Yay, Justine.
[1:42:30] Speaker 8: What I'm taking is that they agree as one, as
[1:42:33] Speaker 8: in like they're one in mind and essence.
[1:42:35] Speaker 1: Wait, who's Who's they?
[1:42:38] Speaker 8: The Father's Son and the Holy those.
[1:42:40] Speaker 1: But they're not mentioned to her.
[1:42:45] Speaker 4: Here verse seven.
[1:42:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, read your verse seven and then look at my
[1:42:51] Speaker 1: screen and see if you can spot the difference.
[1:42:54] Speaker 8: Oh yeah, I know there's a difference. I don't understand
[1:42:56] Speaker 8: why there's a difference.
[1:42:57] Speaker 4: But okay, so just you have do you have access
[1:43:01] Speaker 4: to the Center for a New Testament restoration?
[1:43:05] Speaker 1: I do, Yeah, I've got a bookmark for that.
[1:43:10] Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe the manuscripts that's the problem hazards using the
[1:43:17] Speaker 4: King James.
[1:43:19] Speaker 1: So the reality is the verse you're referring to First
[1:43:22] Speaker 1: John five seven doesn't exist until the sixteenth century. So
[1:43:29] Speaker 1: this is this is a spurious addition to the Greek
[1:43:32] Speaker 1: text that was made during the early portions of erasmus
[1:43:37] Speaker 1: critical edition. When he was putting one together, he didn't
[1:43:40] Speaker 1: even want to include it. There were others that kind
[1:43:43] Speaker 1: of pushed him to include it and manufactured a Greek
[1:43:46] Speaker 1: text that included it, even though there wasn't a Greek
[1:43:48] Speaker 1: text for it. But we don't actually have any like
[1:43:51] Speaker 1: Greek manuscripts that include this. So I get that, like,
[1:43:58] Speaker 1: it would be really helpful if that was in the Bible,
[1:44:00] Speaker 1: but that's not in the Bible.
[1:44:03] Speaker 8: All right? And then pull up when I guess you're versing,
[1:44:05] Speaker 8: cuse minding yours are different?
[1:44:08] Speaker 6: All right?
[1:44:10] Speaker 8: Genesis one twenty six.
[1:44:13] Speaker 1: Oh boy, I help you here, just one twenty six?
[1:44:18] Speaker 1: You think? Let us.
[1:44:21] Speaker 4: Yeah? Just how I say?
[1:44:25] Speaker 5: So?
[1:44:25] Speaker 8: What I would mean that there would be more than one?
[1:44:29] Speaker 4: Yeah, more than one god?
[1:44:31] Speaker 8: Yeah?
[1:44:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's many gods. I know the Psalmatey two has
[1:44:35] Speaker 1: a bunch of gods too. No trinity though, there's no
[1:44:38] Speaker 1: trinity here?
[1:44:40] Speaker 4: Yeah? Are you from? So in the ancient Near East
[1:44:43] Speaker 4: hazard there is a belief in something called the divine council. Basically,
[1:44:48] Speaker 4: you would have a large assortment of gods, not just
[1:44:51] Speaker 4: three guys. You would have many, many gods, and at
[1:44:53] Speaker 4: the top of the echelon of gods you would have
[1:44:55] Speaker 4: the chief deity, which would be l l Young, which
[1:44:59] Speaker 4: you mean, God Most High. This is what the ancient
[1:45:03] Speaker 4: Israelites would have believed. They weren't monotheist, and what we
[1:45:06] Speaker 4: see in Genesis one twenty six, twenty seven is just
[1:45:09] Speaker 4: a vestigial remnant of this ancient belief in many gods.
[1:45:14] Speaker 4: It's that human beings were made in the image of
[1:45:17] Speaker 4: the gods. So the Most High God says to all
[1:45:21] Speaker 4: the other gods, lets us make man in our image to.
[1:45:24] Speaker 8: Look like us, right, which would be the Father, right.
[1:45:30] Speaker 4: All the gods, not just not just yahweh. Like literally,
[1:45:34] Speaker 4: in the ancient Eiast mythology, all the gods look like
[1:45:38] Speaker 4: humans because from the perspective of the ancient eari East,
[1:45:41] Speaker 4: humans were made to look like the gods.
[1:45:50] Speaker 8: Okay, I'm trying to see how it contradicts how there
[1:45:56] Speaker 8: can be three in the beginning, I can.
[1:46:00] Speaker 4: There's way more than three. I mean, there's not just yahweh,
[1:46:03] Speaker 4: there's Bail, there's Mote. There's many many different deities that
[1:46:08] Speaker 4: this could possibly be referring to.
[1:46:10] Speaker 1: And don't forget about enough Enough is the hero of
[1:46:13] Speaker 1: the Bail cycle.
[1:46:15] Speaker 2: Yes, I mean another way of thinking about it is,
[1:46:20] Speaker 2: if there was, if there, if you only, if you
[1:46:22] Speaker 2: only had the Old Testament, do you think you get
[1:46:24] Speaker 2: to the doctrine of the Trinity?
[1:46:25] Speaker 4: Has Mmmm.
[1:46:30] Speaker 8: That's kind of hard to say on that one, but
[1:46:33] Speaker 8: it would be hard to come to that.
[1:46:34] Speaker 2: Conclusion from the verse that you offered, right. This is
[1:46:39] Speaker 2: probably one of the most honest Christians I've talked to
[1:46:41] Speaker 2: in a while, by.
[1:46:42] Speaker 4: The way, I mean, w honestly has it? I mean,
[1:46:46] Speaker 4: if if you could find the Trinity in the Old Testament,
[1:46:48] Speaker 4: would we expect there to be Israelites or Jews from
[1:46:52] Speaker 4: the past who believed in the Trinity prior to the
[1:46:56] Speaker 4: inception of of Nicea and Christianity.
[1:47:03] Speaker 8: I believe that there might have been, but I don't
[1:47:06] Speaker 8: think that we have writing COVID, so yeah, I would agree.
[1:47:09] Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, if we don't have any evidence of
[1:47:12] Speaker 4: such Israelites and Jews exist, and then we can probably
[1:47:15] Speaker 4: it's best to say it probably didn't exist. There are
[1:47:18] Speaker 4: no trinitarian Jews, and there are Jews today who have
[1:47:21] Speaker 4: the entirety of the Old Testament. They read it and
[1:47:24] Speaker 4: they are not Trinitarians.
[1:47:28] Speaker 8: Hm, well, I know that apparently also the I think
[1:47:33] Speaker 8: a lot of the other Jews also don't believe that
[1:47:36] Speaker 8: Jesus was the son of God.
[1:47:37] Speaker 4: Drews for good reason. Yeah, I mean, mostly because of Judaism.
[1:47:42] Speaker 4: The title son of God is not special in Judaism.
[1:47:45] Speaker 4: Every man is a son of God, even David.
[1:47:50] Speaker 8: Yeah, even Uh, Jesus says that at one point where
[1:47:52] Speaker 8: he says it didn't it didn't not written where I've
[1:47:55] Speaker 8: said that you are also God's for you, you were
[1:47:58] Speaker 8: also it's in the most h.
[1:48:00] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's because Jesus is like misquoting the Psalms in
[1:48:05] Speaker 4: that instance, but or he's misinterpreting it. But any way,
[1:48:09] Speaker 4: we should really get back into the topic of the trinity.
[1:48:12] Speaker 4: Do you have anything perhaps better from the Bible that
[1:48:17] Speaker 4: could support the trinity?
[1:48:24] Speaker 8: Are you gonna use that as and like whenever, okay,
[1:48:31] Speaker 8: let's go there, like whenever they and Genesis were not Genesis.
[1:48:34] Speaker 8: But uh, Jesus said before Abraham was I am that's kind.
[1:48:39] Speaker 3: Of like.
[1:48:42] Speaker 4: That's probably going to be the closest you could possibly get,
[1:48:45] Speaker 4: but even then it's somewhat spurious. There is an idea
[1:48:50] Speaker 4: within ancient Judaism of a certain angel which is the
[1:48:56] Speaker 4: bearer of the divine name. So in ancient Judaism, God
[1:49:00] Speaker 4: name Yahweh or i Am was a communicable vehicle for
[1:49:05] Speaker 4: divine authority. In other words, the idea in ancient Judaism
[1:49:09] Speaker 4: is that God could bestow his name upon an individual
[1:49:14] Speaker 4: like a sort of badge of authority, and by bestowing
[1:49:18] Speaker 4: his name upon that individual, this individual has the authority
[1:49:21] Speaker 4: to act in God's name. But we see this for example,
[1:49:24] Speaker 4: in the Book of Exodus, we have the Angel of
[1:49:26] Speaker 4: the Lord, and we are told about the Angel of
[1:49:30] Speaker 4: the Lord that he will not forgive you because my
[1:49:33] Speaker 4: name is in him. And even in the Book of John,
[1:49:37] Speaker 4: Jesus talks about how God has given him your name.
[1:49:41] Speaker 4: Quote your name which you have given me. So Jesus
[1:49:44] Speaker 4: only is definitely associating himself tightly with God in this statement,
[1:49:51] Speaker 4: but most Biblical scholars do not consider this evidence that
[1:49:55] Speaker 4: he is identifying himself as being one with the Father,
[1:49:59] Speaker 4: but rather than Jesus is the bearer of God's divine
[1:50:03] Speaker 4: name and thus has authority from God.
[1:50:05] Speaker 1: All right, and this, let me act this is something
[1:50:08] Speaker 1: you do you might have heard about before hazard as well.
[1:50:12] Speaker 1: So a lot of Christians would say that Jesus is
[1:50:15] Speaker 1: the angel of Yahweh in the Old Testament. Have you
[1:50:18] Speaker 1: heard that?
[1:50:22] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[1:50:23] Speaker 1: Okay, this kind of plays into that idea. What were
[1:50:26] Speaker 1: you gonna say before I cut you off?
[1:50:28] Speaker 8: I was gonna see if y'all how y'all interpretation of
[1:50:32] Speaker 8: Hebrews one Versus eight and.
[1:50:37] Speaker 4: Nine your thrown no God that passage?
[1:50:43] Speaker 8: Yeah, but I think on nine it gives a lot
[1:50:45] Speaker 8: more into what I'm.
[1:50:46] Speaker 4: Talking about, justin perhaps you should go into what text
[1:50:50] Speaker 4: is being quoted here in its context.
[1:50:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you're like.
[1:50:56] Speaker 8: Most specifically nine though, but well eight and nine.
[1:51:01] Speaker 1: Are part of this the same quotation.
[1:51:04] Speaker 8: He sounded like to God right there?
[1:51:07] Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, who do you think speaking here in the
[1:51:11] Speaker 1: original Psalm?
[1:51:12] Speaker 3: Right?
[1:51:12] Speaker 1: Because this is a quotation from the Psalms?
[1:51:14] Speaker 6: Right? The Father ry?
[1:51:16] Speaker 4: Right?
[1:51:16] Speaker 1: Who do you think speaking.
[1:51:19] Speaker 6: All right?
[1:51:20] Speaker 5: Here?
[1:51:20] Speaker 8: It sounds like it's it's the Father talking because at
[1:51:24] Speaker 8: the beginning of five that says you are my son.
[1:51:29] Speaker 6: Right right?
[1:51:29] Speaker 5: Right?
[1:51:30] Speaker 6: Okay?
[1:51:30] Speaker 1: So we're quoting from Psalm too, right, okay, right, and
[1:51:36] Speaker 1: the question is in Psalm Too who's speaking?
[1:51:39] Speaker 8: Let me read the Psalms too real quick, mm, I
[1:51:42] Speaker 8: don't want to miss quote anything.
[1:51:48] Speaker 6: There.
[1:51:48] Speaker 3: It is Psalms.
[1:51:55] Speaker 4: He's looking for that justin that book I sent you
[1:51:57] Speaker 4: last night or it was two nights ago, maybe yahweh
[1:52:01] Speaker 4: in his divine images that it goes a lot into
[1:52:05] Speaker 4: this whole idea of Jesus as the divine name bears
[1:52:09] Speaker 4: such a good read.
[1:52:11] Speaker 5: Yeah, I do it.
[1:52:12] Speaker 1: Where we're in Psalm iiO, and we're going to be
[1:52:17] Speaker 1: in verse seven and eight, right, it says, I will
[1:52:21] Speaker 1: tell of the decree of the Lord. He said to me,
[1:52:23] Speaker 1: you are my son. Today I have begotten you ask
[1:52:25] Speaker 1: of me. You know, we'll make the nations your heritage.
[1:52:29] Speaker 1: This is King David speaking, right, Yes, this is about
[1:52:39] Speaker 1: King David.
[1:52:39] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:52:39] Speaker 1: So the author of the Book of Hebrews, he does
[1:52:42] Speaker 1: this elsewhere. The author of the Book of Hebrews spuriously
[1:52:46] Speaker 1: attributes the Psalms of David to be about Jesus Christ
[1:52:50] Speaker 1: when they're not about Jesus Christ. The same thing happens
[1:52:52] Speaker 1: in Matthew twenty two when it claims that there's a
[1:52:56] Speaker 1: psalm in Psalm one about Jesus when it not about Jesus.
[1:53:01] Speaker 1: Like the author the or the authors of the New
[1:53:04] Speaker 1: Testament don't really know what's happening in the Old Testament
[1:53:07] Speaker 1: very well.
[1:53:12] Speaker 4: Yeah, that passage where it says your throne of God
[1:53:16] Speaker 4: is also from a later psalm, and it's actually not
[1:53:18] Speaker 4: it's speaking to the king of Israel, Solomon. It's a
[1:53:22] Speaker 4: marriage song. And basically what you have to understand hazard
[1:53:26] Speaker 4: that in the ancient Near East, and this is a
[1:53:29] Speaker 4: motif found all over the place, the kings of Israel,
[1:53:32] Speaker 4: the kings of whether it be Israel or Babylon Arcadia,
[1:53:36] Speaker 4: were thought to be divine in a sense, which is
[1:53:40] Speaker 4: why the title Elohim and Hebrew being God can be
[1:53:45] Speaker 4: applied even to a human king, because human kings were
[1:53:49] Speaker 4: said to be the sons of God and divine in
[1:53:51] Speaker 4: their own right. And the same is true for Jesus,
[1:53:54] Speaker 4: because the author thinks of him as being the son
[1:53:57] Speaker 4: of David, a descendi of David, a king, and therefore
[1:54:01] Speaker 4: divine in nature, but not equal to God. So the
[1:54:05] Speaker 4: title God Theos in Greek or Hebrew Eloheim can't be
[1:54:10] Speaker 4: applied to more than judge out of Israel within the
[1:54:14] Speaker 4: Jewish framework, right.
[1:54:16] Speaker 8: But my way, I think like they're the but I
[1:54:21] Speaker 8: think you use words God is like a title. But
[1:54:24] Speaker 8: I think they would be one as like they were
[1:54:27] Speaker 8: all in the beginning and they're all acting on one mindset.
[1:54:32] Speaker 1: I mean they're acting in agreement. You mean, yes, well, yeah,
[1:54:37] Speaker 1: we we agree that the the entities could have been
[1:54:40] Speaker 1: in agreement with each other. But I don't know if
[1:54:42] Speaker 1: that does anything where people gets as they are one,
[1:54:47] Speaker 1: because it would be like they are one in mindset
[1:54:49] Speaker 1: one in Athens.
[1:54:52] Speaker 4: Well you were right in mindset, but in essence that's
[1:54:55] Speaker 4: not precluded by the text.
[1:54:58] Speaker 8: Actually with them being in the beginning and have an authority.
[1:55:03] Speaker 2: Well doesn't it's they does say. And I believe in
[1:55:06] Speaker 2: Colossians that Jesus was the first born, right birthborn of
[1:55:11] Speaker 2: all creation. Right, So and then yeah, I'm not.
[1:55:19] Speaker 8: Denying that Jesus is subsurbian to the Father. I'm not
[1:55:22] Speaker 8: denying that.
[1:55:23] Speaker 2: Yeah, but Jesus literally comes from the Father, yes, not
[1:55:30] Speaker 2: not not just that doesn't just mean sent by. That's
[1:55:33] Speaker 2: not what the early Twinitarians thought. It wasn't a mere sending.
[1:55:36] Speaker 2: It was he literally comes from yes, right.
[1:55:42] Speaker 4: And it always has. There's a time when Jesus doesn't exist,
[1:55:45] Speaker 4: according to Colossians that Danny's quoting, or at.
[1:55:51] Speaker 2: Least, you know, some Arians thought that it was timeless.
[1:55:54] Speaker 2: But even if that's correct, the point is that he's
[1:55:59] Speaker 2: created and that sets him apart from the Father.
[1:56:04] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:56:05] Speaker 8: I guess when I'm trying to get a I'm not
[1:56:08] Speaker 8: just agreeing with y'all at all. My thing is I
[1:56:11] Speaker 8: think that the title God is more like as just
[1:56:15] Speaker 8: like as a title, well like it.
[1:56:17] Speaker 2: Actually, there's actually good reasons to think that the way
[1:56:20] Speaker 2: Christians today use the term God isn't really a title
[1:56:24] Speaker 2: like titles, Like if I said I talked to the
[1:56:26] Speaker 2: bishop or I talked to the president last night, Right,
[1:56:29] Speaker 2: you don't say that. You can put the article the
[1:56:32] Speaker 2: before titles and it makes sense, but names you don't
[1:56:35] Speaker 2: put the before them. So like if I don't I
[1:56:37] Speaker 2: didn't talk to the justin last night, right, okay.
[1:56:41] Speaker 8: Right, but like don't didn't like God made up great?
[1:56:45] Speaker 2: Like did you do you say last night? Do you
[1:56:47] Speaker 2: pray to the God? Or do you pray to God?
[1:56:51] Speaker 8: God?
[1:56:52] Speaker 10: Right?
[1:56:52] Speaker 2: Because it functions like a name in the way that
[1:56:55] Speaker 2: Trinitarians are thinking about it.
[1:56:57] Speaker 8: Right, and do you close your prayer within the Son's name?
[1:57:02] Speaker 3: Right?
[1:57:02] Speaker 2: So I'm saying that the Sanitarians typically don't like treating
[1:57:06] Speaker 2: the term God like a title term like president, because
[1:57:11] Speaker 2: if you do, it's even more clear that there's three
[1:57:13] Speaker 2: of them.
[1:57:14] Speaker 8: Well, yeah, that's why I started off saying that I'm
[1:57:17] Speaker 8: I have a different outlook compared.
[1:57:19] Speaker 2: To Can we go to Philippians two six for a second?
[1:57:25] Speaker 8: Yeah, philippiumsick. I actually like this conversation, though, I'll give
[1:57:31] Speaker 8: you all that.
[1:57:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been good. Does though he existed in the
[1:57:36] Speaker 1: form of God, it did not regard equality with God
[1:57:40] Speaker 1: as something to be grasped.
[1:57:43] Speaker 8: Reader, though he existed in the form of God. Okay,
[1:57:46] Speaker 8: so how would you break that down?
[1:57:49] Speaker 2: So he presented himself. He kind of appeared at the
[1:57:54] Speaker 2: face of I think the word their form is morphe Right.
[1:57:57] Speaker 2: I could be wrong, but that's correct.
[1:58:00] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:58:01] Speaker 2: He did not consider himself to be equal with God
[1:58:06] Speaker 2: or not.
[1:58:06] Speaker 8: He said that multiple times. He said, you could, huh
[1:58:12] Speaker 8: where Jesus has said that before? He said that your
[1:58:14] Speaker 8: God is my God.
[1:58:17] Speaker 2: Before Philippian six, different passage, right, some people, and I
[1:58:25] Speaker 2: know what some trinitarians. The way they try to interpret
[1:58:27] Speaker 2: this verse is like he didn't use his power, his
[1:58:30] Speaker 2: equality with God against other people. But then then verse
[1:58:33] Speaker 2: nine doesn't make any sense if you take that interpretatione
[1:58:38] Speaker 2: Verse nine of the same chapter, right, therefore God exalted
[1:58:42] Speaker 2: him even more highly. How can you exalt that someone
[1:58:47] Speaker 2: higher than God? Because if if you're interpreting verse six
[1:58:51] Speaker 2: as having if Jesus have an equal equality with the Father,
[1:58:56] Speaker 2: So if you interpret like kind of the dumb way
[1:58:58] Speaker 2: that these turnament these not you, but these other trinitarians
[1:59:02] Speaker 2: try to do with verse six, then you throw verse
[1:59:05] Speaker 2: nine under the bus.
[1:59:08] Speaker 8: Right.
[1:59:10] Speaker 2: So, so the idea is that Jesus is not equal
[1:59:13] Speaker 2: to God even on the on the on it, even
[1:59:17] Speaker 2: at posts or the non gospel books of.
[1:59:21] Speaker 4: The New Testament. Right, so I think we what we've
[1:59:38] Speaker 4: really gotten to here hazard is not only is the trinityological,
[1:59:43] Speaker 4: but it's just not supported even by the scriptures.
[1:59:51] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:59:51] Speaker 8: I think I had this discussion with one of my
[1:59:54] Speaker 8: fathers in law. He always tainted, I think conclusion that
[1:59:58] Speaker 8: achievements was not God.
[1:59:59] Speaker 4: But after his thought, yeah, that's how the early Christians
[2:00:03] Speaker 4: saw it.
[2:00:04] Speaker 8: H Well, all right, well this was a. Actually, it
[2:00:11] Speaker 8: was a very good conversation. I learned it actually a
[2:00:15] Speaker 8: lot really, so I appreciate it.
[2:00:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, you were very pleasant.
[2:00:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate you being here.
[2:00:23] Speaker 8: Thank you.
[2:00:24] Speaker 4: Hazard.
[2:00:27] Speaker 2: That's like one in what one hundred?
[2:00:30] Speaker 4: Yeah, w Hazard?
[2:00:31] Speaker 1: Right, shit, Typically you get a lot of defensiveness, and
[2:00:37] Speaker 1: I didn't catch too much Hazard. He seemed like he
[2:00:40] Speaker 1: was really interested in the dialogue, which is always a
[2:00:43] Speaker 1: huge win. All right, I think next in line is
[2:00:47] Speaker 1: going to be Flinser. We'll grab but just a couple
[2:00:51] Speaker 1: of super chests. We'll get Flinser in here. Red Trek
[2:00:53] Speaker 1: has an important update. Thank you for that twenty five
[2:00:56] Speaker 1: dollars update. Red check says, justin I read conflicting use
[2:01:00] Speaker 1: on Erasmus. I've seen some scholars claim that Erasmus was
[2:01:03] Speaker 1: not in fact forced to add the Johannen kama. While
[2:01:07] Speaker 1: some scholars do make that argument, I've I've heard the
[2:01:12] Speaker 1: the arguments for both sides, and I would point out
[2:01:16] Speaker 1: I don't know if the word forced is the right
[2:01:18] Speaker 1: one right word to use, Like, I feel like he
[2:01:21] Speaker 1: was more strong armed into doing it, if that makes sense.
[2:01:26] Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't in as far as I know,
[2:01:28] Speaker 1: it was not in his original There's some debate as
[2:01:32] Speaker 1: to what dialogue took place to get it in, but
[2:01:36] Speaker 1: there was. There was some events that transpired. Somebody walked
[2:01:40] Speaker 1: in to his pizzeria and staid, it'd be a shame
[2:01:43] Speaker 1: if something bad happened to this pizzeria.
[2:01:47] Speaker 4: Didn't someone didn't. Someone forge a Greek manuscript and just
[2:01:51] Speaker 4: added in the Yeah, that's why I thought it happened.
[2:01:55] Speaker 2: There's a friend of mine.
[2:01:55] Speaker 4: I don't.
[2:01:56] Speaker 2: He's requesting I don't. Maybe you want I don't know.
[2:01:58] Speaker 1: Oh, well, they dropped. They might have been up here
[2:02:00] Speaker 1: by accident.
[2:02:01] Speaker 4: So I guess paka they're atheists.
[2:02:04] Speaker 1: That could have been a pocket dial red Trek also
[2:02:07] Speaker 1: adds to Dalton. I thought Arius was the second in
[2:02:11] Speaker 1: command to the Bishop of Alexandria. I believe the Bishop
[2:02:14] Speaker 1: of Alexandria was solidly against Arius' view. I actually don't
[2:02:18] Speaker 1: know the line of succession.
[2:02:20] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not familiar with the line of succession in Alexandria.
[2:02:24] Speaker 4: I know that Arius was quite close with Usebius, but
[2:02:29] Speaker 4: I don't. I have no idea.
[2:02:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, and super chat from our friend Dougald Dogald thank
[2:02:37] Speaker 1: you so much. Has got a random DM asking me
[2:02:39] Speaker 1: some questions because they said you mentioned me. Wanted to
[2:02:42] Speaker 1: say thanks for the shoutout. Friend, I appreciate you a
[2:02:46] Speaker 1: great deal, do Gold, I appreciate you. And if you're
[2:02:48] Speaker 1: watching this right now, I can't imagine you don't know
[2:02:51] Speaker 1: Dougald on TikTok, but drop Dougald of follow. He's a
[2:02:54] Speaker 1: great friend of mine and he does live stream as well.
[2:02:56] Speaker 1: And I even says the essence of religious deconstruction and
[2:03:00] Speaker 1: lies in this channel. Cheers. Yeah, no trinity required, but
[2:03:04] Speaker 1: we do have the essence of deconstruction. I appreciate that.
[2:03:07] Speaker 1: I've been all right, So we lost flutter, but we
[2:03:10] Speaker 1: do have our friend wild man Chris waiting to get
[2:03:15] Speaker 1: into the conversation.
[2:03:18] Speaker 4: Right hey, Chris, welcome back the Lord.
[2:03:22] Speaker 1: Welcome and Chris Chris, Chris are your speakers on buddy Chris.
[2:03:35] Speaker 1: I don't think Chris. He's having a rough time. I
[2:03:39] Speaker 1: love dropping for now. Chris didn't know he was on stage.
[2:03:44] Speaker 1: We like Chris.
[2:03:45] Speaker 20: Chris.
[2:03:46] Speaker 1: Chris is a good guy. He's he's working through it
[2:03:48] Speaker 1: all right, we'll grab.
[2:03:50] Speaker 2: I just looked it up as was a respiters.
[2:03:53] Speaker 5: How you say it.
[2:03:54] Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, but he did have apostolic succession. Don't till
[2:04:00] Speaker 2: yeah later then they took it away.
[2:04:03] Speaker 1: All right, let me grab super Chat then we'll get
[2:04:05] Speaker 1: our guest Colby into the discussion. Kelly, thank you so
[2:04:09] Speaker 1: much for the twenty dollars supertest says. What I do
[2:04:11] Speaker 1: not understand is why the callers aren't at least describing
[2:04:13] Speaker 1: their own personal experience with the Trinity or UFOs or whatever.
[2:04:18] Speaker 1: Do they consider the Bible a better source than their
[2:04:20] Speaker 1: own experience? Guess so, Kelly. Actually we talk about this
[2:04:25] Speaker 1: quite a bit. I think if you're not familiar with
[2:04:27] Speaker 1: our channel, personal experience isn't really a good argument for
[2:04:32] Speaker 1: your belief system, because everybody has personal experiences, right like
[2:04:36] Speaker 1: the Hindus do, and personal experiences don't really comment on
[2:04:40] Speaker 1: whether or not something's logical. But I get what you're saying.
[2:04:43] Speaker 1: You think that people's personal experiences should matter, and I
[2:04:47] Speaker 1: just you know, why don't.
[2:04:50] Speaker 4: Yeah, that one has a personal experience with the Trinity.
[2:04:54] Speaker 1: I listen. I'd love to hear it though. If somebody
[2:04:56] Speaker 1: was visited by Trinity, tell me about it, you know
[2:05:00] Speaker 1: what I mean?
[2:05:01] Speaker 2: That that was a hum's point. By the way, that
[2:05:03] Speaker 2: if we take all these people's personal experiences seriously, then
[2:05:08] Speaker 2: they'd all defeat each other.
[2:05:09] Speaker 1: So right, yeah, yeah, there is a self defeating the situation. Colby,
[2:05:15] Speaker 1: welcome into the conversation. Are at least eighteen? And do
[2:05:17] Speaker 1: you believe in the Trinity?
[2:05:20] Speaker 6: Uh?
[2:05:21] Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm fifty one and I definitely believe. I'm a Christian.
[2:05:24] Speaker 5: I believe in the Trinity.
[2:05:25] Speaker 6: Cool?
[2:05:25] Speaker 5: Hey doing?
[2:05:26] Speaker 1: And do you think that the Trinity is logical or illogical?
[2:05:31] Speaker 6: Oh?
[2:05:31] Speaker 5: I definitely think it's logical. So if and here's my reasoning,
[2:05:34] Speaker 5: here's some of my reasoning for that. For you, are
[2:05:37] Speaker 5: you one person or you three people?
[2:05:40] Speaker 1: For you, I'm I'm one.
[2:05:43] Speaker 5: Okay, But if we were in a psychology class there
[2:05:45] Speaker 5: would say you're three because they'd say you had an ID,
[2:05:48] Speaker 5: an ego, and a super ego. That's three parts of you.
[2:05:52] Speaker 1: So God has parted?
[2:05:53] Speaker 5: And well, yes, yeah, like it's I mean, obviously, I'm
[2:05:58] Speaker 5: sure with your question that you've heard.
[2:06:00] Speaker 1: You're going to super hell, buddy.
[2:06:03] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[2:06:03] Speaker 4: Are you denying divine simplicity?
[2:06:06] Speaker 5: Then I don't know what divine simplicity is. I know
[2:06:09] Speaker 5: what the trinity is, and so it's one God in
[2:06:12] Speaker 5: three parts so.
[2:06:14] Speaker 1: That's a heresy, that's partialism.
[2:06:17] Speaker 5: Generally, it's one God and it's he's got you know,
[2:06:23] Speaker 5: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[2:06:25] Speaker 4: So so the Father is only one third God and
[2:06:30] Speaker 4: the son's one third God and always creates one third God. Yeah, this.
[2:06:35] Speaker 5: Like you, if you're you have an ego, that's your
[2:06:38] Speaker 5: whole self. You have that your your that's your whole self.
[2:06:40] Speaker 5: You have a super you know there are three your
[2:06:42] Speaker 5: whole self.
[2:06:43] Speaker 1: To be sure, nobody here knows what it is. Maybe
[2:06:46] Speaker 1: somebody does, I have know it.
[2:06:48] Speaker 5: Is, But how about I know that I know I
[2:06:52] Speaker 5: know what an ego is.
[2:06:54] Speaker 1: To be sure, I don't think egos actually exist. I
[2:06:57] Speaker 1: think egos are describing brain states.
[2:07:01] Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll have about.
[2:07:02] Speaker 5: Water if he goes too hard to have about water.
[2:07:04] Speaker 5: Just let's keep it simple. On water. We have, we
[2:07:07] Speaker 5: have a gas, we have a we have an ice
[2:07:10] Speaker 5: is a solid, and then water itself is a liquid. Right,
[2:07:15] Speaker 5: it's all water, but it's three forms of that same water.
[2:07:20] Speaker 1: You've just transcended into the second layer of super hell
[2:07:23] Speaker 1: by affirming modalism. Modalism was condemned early in the Church too.
[2:07:29] Speaker 5: I'm giving you examples. Here's the thing example, there are
[2:07:36] Speaker 5: only certain examples because they're earthly examples. They're not God.
[2:07:39] Speaker 2: What are you trying to give an example?
[2:07:41] Speaker 5: What?
[2:07:41] Speaker 2: What are these examples are supposed to show.
[2:07:44] Speaker 5: They're showing that one thing can be in three, three
[2:07:47] Speaker 5: different forms, three different parts.
[2:07:49] Speaker 2: That's not one problem, right that Our problem is this.
[2:07:52] Speaker 2: It's not that there can't be three and one. I
[2:07:53] Speaker 2: have three and one shampoo. I recommend it head and shoulders. Okay,
[2:07:57] Speaker 2: it's you're saying that each of the three are fully the.
[2:08:01] Speaker 1: One, right like Jesus was is one God not part
[2:08:05] Speaker 1: of God.
[2:08:06] Speaker 2: And they're not each other the persons that is.
[2:08:10] Speaker 5: I agree with both of those stateings you got just
[2:08:12] Speaker 5: individually made.
[2:08:14] Speaker 1: So the problem you have is you haven't given an
[2:08:17] Speaker 1: analogy that follows that logic yet.
[2:08:21] Speaker 5: Well, there's not an analogy that can fully cover God, right,
[2:08:23] Speaker 5: I mean God is everywhere, is everything, He's out in
[2:08:27] Speaker 5: the omega. Right, there's the right.
[2:08:30] Speaker 2: Right, So you agree with this that there's no good analogy.
[2:08:33] Speaker 2: There's no example that you can give us.
[2:08:35] Speaker 5: Not as a human, you know, I mean God's beyond understanding, right, right,
[2:08:40] Speaker 5: God's beyond our understanding. See God created math, and so what's.
[2:08:43] Speaker 2: Beyond you know what what else is beyond understanding?
[2:08:46] Speaker 5: Contradictions, No, contradictions aren't beyond understanding. So we can understand
[2:08:52] Speaker 5: that when things contradict each other. Tell me what it
[2:08:54] Speaker 5: means beyond that are really beyond our comprehension?
[2:08:57] Speaker 6: Me?
[2:08:58] Speaker 2: Can you tell me? Do you understand what it means
[2:08:59] Speaker 2: to say that there's a triangle with no sides? Do
[2:09:02] Speaker 2: you understand what that means?
[2:09:04] Speaker 5: That's just false? There's a difference, does it.
[2:09:06] Speaker 2: Do you understand what it means to say that there's
[2:09:09] Speaker 2: a triangle with no sides? Does that make sense to you.
[2:09:12] Speaker 5: That that is just that is just a false that's
[2:09:14] Speaker 5: a false object.
[2:09:15] Speaker 2: Right, So I'm going to repeat you understand, I'm going
[2:09:18] Speaker 2: to repeat myself. Do you understand what it means to
[2:09:21] Speaker 2: say that I have a shape with no sides?
[2:09:24] Speaker 5: It means that you're making an error? That you are
[2:09:26] Speaker 5: making an error, not God.
[2:09:27] Speaker 2: Not what the person means. No, they don't mean error.
[2:09:32] Speaker 5: Do you know what when you say that that a
[2:09:34] Speaker 5: triangle by definition has three sides?
[2:09:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a object here. So it's a yes or
[2:09:39] Speaker 2: no question.
[2:09:39] Speaker 10: Correct?
[2:09:40] Speaker 2: Do you know what it means? Either you don't or
[2:09:42] Speaker 2: you do.
[2:09:44] Speaker 5: It's like saying two plus two is five? Do you
[2:09:46] Speaker 5: know what I'm going to.
[2:09:47] Speaker 2: Repeat since you're dodging right? The question is is it
[2:09:50] Speaker 2: a yes or no question?
[2:09:51] Speaker 5: Either it's a yes or no question?
[2:09:53] Speaker 2: Okay? What's the third option?
[2:09:55] Speaker 1: No question?
[2:09:55] Speaker 5: The third option is that you're wrong. That's that's just incorrect.
[2:10:00] Speaker 2: What am I wrong about?
[2:10:01] Speaker 5: Q plus two is not five? A triangle cannot have
[2:10:04] Speaker 5: no sides?
[2:10:05] Speaker 2: All right, So let me repeat the question. Do you
[2:10:06] Speaker 2: accept the law of excluded middle meaning that it's either
[2:10:09] Speaker 2: P or not P?
[2:10:13] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[2:10:13] Speaker 5: Sure, I haven't heard of this law before. Necessarily I
[2:10:16] Speaker 5: don't remember that from school, but yes, yes, sure, love.
[2:10:20] Speaker 2: Okay, it's either the case you under you understand the
[2:10:22] Speaker 2: meaning or you don't. Which one is it?
[2:10:27] Speaker 6: So?
[2:10:27] Speaker 5: Do you understand the meaning of two?
[2:10:28] Speaker 6: Post?
[2:10:29] Speaker 2: Go answer the question? I'll wait.
[2:10:30] Speaker 5: I'm asking you. I'm answering with a question.
[2:10:32] Speaker 2: I'm not going to answer your questions if you don't
[2:10:34] Speaker 2: answer mine.
[2:10:35] Speaker 5: So this is the way I'm answering your question. Do
[2:10:37] Speaker 5: you understand which.
[2:10:38] Speaker 2: One is it? Which one is it? It's a strict dichotomy.
[2:10:41] Speaker 2: You have told me you accept exclusion, not a strict economy.
[2:10:44] Speaker 5: There's a third option, and that third option can be
[2:10:46] Speaker 5: the form.
[2:10:46] Speaker 2: Do you know what the form is, I'll say it again. Okay,
[2:10:50] Speaker 2: either P or not P. So it's either the case
[2:10:52] Speaker 2: that P or not P.
[2:10:54] Speaker 5: Right, So no, it's not it's not it's not mid
[2:10:59] Speaker 5: col Kobe.
[2:11:00] Speaker 2: You accepted lawish school in the middle, right.
[2:11:04] Speaker 5: I think that it's true in some cases, but I
[2:11:07] Speaker 5: don't think.
[2:11:07] Speaker 1: He understands it. So let me let me make sure
[2:11:10] Speaker 1: we're clear on the love excluded middle of Kolobe. We're
[2:11:13] Speaker 1: saying a thing, we'll call that thing P. P is
[2:11:16] Speaker 1: either P meaning it's itself, or it's not P, meaning
[2:11:21] Speaker 1: it's not itself. Right, So if P is actually P
[2:11:26] Speaker 1: and not P, that means this rule is broken. It
[2:11:30] Speaker 1: can't be P and also not P has to be
[2:11:32] Speaker 1: one or the other.
[2:11:34] Speaker 5: So I don't think that that rule applies to God. Right.
[2:11:38] Speaker 1: So God, God's I logical, That's what that's We've been
[2:11:40] Speaker 1: saying the whole time. Like you believe in a God
[2:11:42] Speaker 1: that breaks the laws of logic, he's illogical.
[2:11:44] Speaker 5: I believe in a God that's beyond our knowledge of logic.
[2:11:48] Speaker 2: All right? How many persons are there in God?
[2:11:52] Speaker 5: I mean, do you believe that there are why what's you.
[2:11:55] Speaker 2: And not answering questions? How many persons are there in?
[2:11:57] Speaker 6: God?
[2:11:59] Speaker 5: Is one God? In three parts?
[2:12:01] Speaker 2: Three parts?
[2:12:02] Speaker 5: I've already said that. I've already said that persons.
[2:12:06] Speaker 2: Yes, right, do you use logic to count to three persons?
[2:12:13] Speaker 5: So like I would say that the Holy Spirit?
[2:12:15] Speaker 2: I mean, what are you allergic to questions? Did you
[2:12:20] Speaker 2: use logic to count to the three persons?
[2:12:25] Speaker 3: Sure?
[2:12:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, you just said logic doesn't apply.
[2:12:30] Speaker 5: I'm saying that God is beyond your your knowledge of logic,
[2:12:33] Speaker 5: just like you're applying galaxy. Logic probably exists beyond our understanding.
[2:12:39] Speaker 2: Right, Why are you applying logic to God? One second?
[2:12:44] Speaker 2: Why are you applying your loge to God and counting persons?
[2:12:47] Speaker 2: Then if you're you're contradicting yourself and you don't even
[2:12:49] Speaker 2: realize it.
[2:12:52] Speaker 5: We are under able to understand certain things because we do.
[2:12:54] Speaker 5: God gave us a brain, right, but he didn't give
[2:12:57] Speaker 5: us a brain his size.
[2:12:58] Speaker 2: Wait, can you apply to logic? Can you apply logic
[2:13:00] Speaker 2: to God?
[2:13:01] Speaker 6: Yes?
[2:13:01] Speaker 3: Or no?
[2:13:05] Speaker 5: Can you apply God has knowledge?
[2:13:08] Speaker 2: Kobe?
[2:13:08] Speaker 5: Can you apply logic understanding?
[2:13:11] Speaker 2: I'm ask I didn't ask that, right, I didn't ask
[2:13:14] Speaker 2: that right? The question I asked, can you apply to
[2:13:16] Speaker 2: logic to God? Yes? Or no?
[2:13:18] Speaker 3: No?
[2:13:19] Speaker 2: Okay, here's what Okay? You said no everybody he said, no,
[2:13:22] Speaker 2: you cannot apply logic to God. Do you count God?
[2:13:25] Speaker 5: Say that when you count?
[2:13:27] Speaker 2: When you account God as three persons? Are you applying
[2:13:30] Speaker 2: a logic to count?
[2:13:35] Speaker 5: I'm saying that God is beyond your logic.
[2:13:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna repeat the question. I'm not going to
[2:13:40] Speaker 2: drop the question just because you dodged.
[2:13:42] Speaker 5: You're trying to vote.
[2:13:43] Speaker 2: I'm going to and I want to repeat to be honest, right,
[2:13:47] Speaker 2: I'm gonna.
[2:13:48] Speaker 5: I am honest. I am honest. It's you guys. Are you?
[2:13:51] Speaker 6: Guys?
[2:13:51] Speaker 5: Are not?
[2:13:52] Speaker 7: You?
[2:13:52] Speaker 5: Guys are not being honest? Is what I'm doing.
[2:13:54] Speaker 2: An honest person would remember my question.
[2:13:56] Speaker 4: So what is it?
[2:13:58] Speaker 5: How about we listened to me for a second other
[2:14:00] Speaker 5: than you go through all.
[2:14:01] Speaker 2: Of these quest Why would we answer your questions? Why
[2:14:04] Speaker 2: would you answer your questions when you don't answer mine?
[2:14:08] Speaker 5: I thought you guys invided me on to talk, but
[2:14:09] Speaker 5: I don't guess you want to hear what I said?
[2:14:10] Speaker 2: Why would we talk to you if you don't answer questions?
[2:14:14] Speaker 5: Did you come Did I come on here just to
[2:14:15] Speaker 5: be interrogated, or is.
[2:14:16] Speaker 2: This you answer mine? I'll answer yours?
[2:14:19] Speaker 5: All right, Well, I have answered your several times when.
[2:14:23] Speaker 2: Sorry, what was your answer to the last question I asked?
[2:14:25] Speaker 5: God is beyond your logic?
[2:14:27] Speaker 2: Now that? Do you remember the last question I asked? Kolby,
[2:14:29] Speaker 2: Are you paying attention?
[2:14:30] Speaker 5: I am paying attention. I don't know what the last
[2:14:32] Speaker 5: question you asked because.
[2:14:33] Speaker 2: You've asked repeat the last questions I will. I will
[2:14:37] Speaker 2: repeat it for your goldfish memory. So here's the question.
[2:14:40] Speaker 2: When you counted God as three persons? Did you apply logic?
[2:14:43] Speaker 2: Yes or no?
[2:14:45] Speaker 5: You can apply some amount of logic. Is beyond your logic?
[2:14:50] Speaker 3: That?
[2:14:51] Speaker 2: So that was a yes.
[2:14:53] Speaker 5: That is not a yes or no question?
[2:14:54] Speaker 2: How is it not a yes or no question?
[2:14:56] Speaker 5: Did you not hear my answer? I just give you
[2:14:59] Speaker 5: an answer.
[2:14:59] Speaker 2: It's your It's obviously it's a yes or no question.
[2:15:03] Speaker 2: Either you do or you didn't apply logic.
[2:15:05] Speaker 5: You're just you're you're trying to It's like you you
[2:15:08] Speaker 5: made a It's like you made a fish bowl.
[2:15:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, you're allergic to questions and logic.
[2:15:14] Speaker 5: All right, listen up. It's like you made a fish bowl.
[2:15:17] Speaker 5: And uh, and so you put a fish in there,
[2:15:20] Speaker 5: and the fish has to breed the water. There's certain
[2:15:22] Speaker 5: logic and certain rules that go into that fish bowl.
[2:15:24] Speaker 2: Right, you are the fish. You are the fish. You
[2:15:27] Speaker 2: have actionality of a fish in the fish bowl, and
[2:15:29] Speaker 2: I'm fishing you right now.
[2:15:32] Speaker 5: So do you the maker, the creator of the fish bowl?
[2:15:34] Speaker 5: Do you have to breed the water? Because that's the
[2:15:36] Speaker 5: rules instead of the fish bowl? Right, the fish, he's
[2:15:38] Speaker 5: got to breed the water.
[2:15:41] Speaker 2: I think you might think, you think.
[2:15:43] Speaker 5: You don't have to buy it by those rules, because
[2:15:46] Speaker 5: that's you don't live in the fish bowl. Neither does
[2:15:48] Speaker 5: God live.
[2:15:50] Speaker 4: In order to the history. In order for two people
[2:15:53] Speaker 4: that creation, in order for two people to have a
[2:15:56] Speaker 4: conversation together, one needs to ask the question, the other
[2:15:59] Speaker 4: one answers. Then the other person can ask you a
[2:16:01] Speaker 4: question and the other one will answer. But if you
[2:16:03] Speaker 4: refused an answer questions that are asked of.
[2:16:06] Speaker 5: You, So I did answer question beyond logic?
[2:16:09] Speaker 3: Right?
[2:16:10] Speaker 2: You said it was no question when it was it's
[2:16:13] Speaker 2: not no. I disagree, you applied logic.
[2:16:16] Speaker 5: Answer disagree.
[2:16:17] Speaker 2: It's the easy argument. You said logic doesn't apply to God.
[2:16:21] Speaker 2: But then you use a counting logic to count to
[2:16:24] Speaker 2: three persons, that one God is three persons. You use
[2:16:27] Speaker 2: a logic, so you're just contradicting yourself and you're coping.
[2:16:32] Speaker 5: You beyond your logic.
[2:16:33] Speaker 1: Did you mean that sometimes God is beyond logic and
[2:16:37] Speaker 1: sometimes he's in logic?
[2:16:41] Speaker 5: I would I guess I would agree with that. Sure,
[2:16:42] Speaker 5: I agree with that statement. Okay, right, where you.
[2:16:46] Speaker 2: Can win are the cases where you can't apply the logic.
[2:16:50] Speaker 2: Can you apply normal counting methods to God?
[2:16:53] Speaker 6: Or no?
[2:16:58] Speaker 5: I mean there's one God in three persons?
[2:17:01] Speaker 2: Repeat the question, repeat the question? Can you apply our
[2:17:04] Speaker 2: normal answered your question?
[2:17:06] Speaker 8: You don't.
[2:17:09] Speaker 2: Can you apply the normal counting ways or methods that
[2:17:12] Speaker 2: we use today to God?
[2:17:16] Speaker 5: Probably not, because then you.
[2:17:18] Speaker 2: Can't count he's one in three, Then you can't count
[2:17:21] Speaker 2: three persons.
[2:17:25] Speaker 5: I can. It's just that it's beyond your logic and
[2:17:27] Speaker 5: it's beyond it's beyond our human collective understanding.
[2:17:30] Speaker 2: Okay, now you're understanding the reasoning. Given the reasoning why
[2:17:33] Speaker 2: they're three persons and not a million, I.
[2:17:37] Speaker 5: Would love to Here's the deal is that is that,
[2:17:41] Speaker 5: like I told you, fishbowl, God created this fishbowl the
[2:17:44] Speaker 5: universe basically the analogy of the universe. Right, the fishbowl,
[2:17:48] Speaker 5: and so we live inside that fish bowl. We have
[2:17:50] Speaker 5: to follow the rules of that fishbowl that are inside
[2:17:52] Speaker 5: that fishbowl. But God does not necessarily live inside the
[2:17:56] Speaker 5: fish bowl. He created the fishbowl around.
[2:18:03] Speaker 2: Does the fish bowl represent what is logical?
[2:18:06] Speaker 5: The fish bowl represents the universe?
[2:18:08] Speaker 2: Yes, I'm going to repeat my question again. Does the
[2:18:11] Speaker 2: fish represent does the fish bowl represent?
[2:18:13] Speaker 5: It represents science?
[2:18:15] Speaker 3: All right?
[2:18:15] Speaker 2: So if it's not in the fish bowl, then it's
[2:18:17] Speaker 2: not logical.
[2:18:18] Speaker 5: Right, it's it's beyond our understanding of science? Question our question?
[2:18:24] Speaker 2: I repeat the questions. Is you don't answer my questions.
[2:18:27] Speaker 2: So if it's outside in your analogy, if it's outside
[2:18:29] Speaker 2: the fish bowl, it's not logical.
[2:18:31] Speaker 6: Right.
[2:18:33] Speaker 5: If it's it's beyond our understanding, you.
[2:18:35] Speaker 2: Didn't ask that. I'm asking if it's outside, I didn't ask. Okay,
[2:18:41] Speaker 2: I want to point out how dishonest you are. First,
[2:18:43] Speaker 2: everyone beyond shut your mouth one second. Everybody answers your mouth.
[2:18:49] Speaker 2: Shut your mouth. Here's what happened. I asked you in
[2:18:52] Speaker 2: your analogy, if you're outside the fish bowl, are you
[2:18:54] Speaker 2: not logical? You've changed my question to if you're outside
[2:18:58] Speaker 2: the fishball, is it it can be understood? You changed it, right,
[2:19:02] Speaker 2: So I am not asking about understanding. I'm asking about logical,
[2:19:07] Speaker 2: not logical, So do not change my question again. Okay,
[2:19:10] Speaker 2: So the question was in your analogy when God was out? Sorry,
[2:19:15] Speaker 2: anything outside the fish bowl? Is it not logical?
[2:19:21] Speaker 5: I think it's beyond our understanding.
[2:19:23] Speaker 1: That's that's the question Colby. Try to answer his question,
[2:19:26] Speaker 1: not the one you want him to ask.
[2:19:29] Speaker 5: So if I had if we operate in like, you
[2:19:34] Speaker 5: could say three three dimensions, make maybe four dimensions if
[2:19:36] Speaker 5: you include time. Right. However, if you included another physical
[2:19:41] Speaker 5: dimension right with like, have have you guys seen that dimension?
[2:19:44] Speaker 5: Was like where the ball comes through our dimensions?
[2:19:46] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[2:19:46] Speaker 1: But this this again, this again doesn't actually answer copy coping.
[2:19:52] Speaker 1: Nobody's asking if it's beyonder understanding. I don't know why
[2:19:55] Speaker 1: you keep trying to say that. That's not the question
[2:19:57] Speaker 1: on the board. The question on the board is is
[2:20:00] Speaker 1: God logical or illogical? Since he's outside of the fish
[2:20:03] Speaker 1: bowl and the fish bowl contains the logic.
[2:20:07] Speaker 5: I don't think it's you're playing human logic to it, though,
[2:20:09] Speaker 5: And there's there's a limit to our logic because there's
[2:20:12] Speaker 5: a thing to our understanding.
[2:20:14] Speaker 1: Can can God be illogical. Yes, okay, can you name
[2:20:24] Speaker 1: one contradiction that he can do?
[2:20:28] Speaker 5: For example, can he all the time at once?
[2:20:30] Speaker 1: That's not a contradiction, that's not a time, that's not
[2:20:33] Speaker 1: a contradiction, it's a statement of his ability. A contradiction
[2:20:36] Speaker 1: would be like, can he would do a paradox? Can
[2:20:39] Speaker 1: he make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?
[2:20:42] Speaker 1: Is that something he can do?
[2:20:45] Speaker 5: I would say that God can eat a burrito of
[2:20:48] Speaker 5: any temperature.
[2:20:49] Speaker 1: Oh, so then he can't make a burrito so hot
[2:20:52] Speaker 1: that he can't eat it.
[2:20:52] Speaker 5: He could make a brito of any temperature, and then
[2:20:54] Speaker 5: he could eat that burrito of any temperature.
[2:20:57] Speaker 1: So then he's not capable of creating a burrito so
[2:21:00] Speaker 1: hot that he can't eat it.
[2:21:03] Speaker 5: He's created He's capable of creating a burrito of any temperature.
[2:21:06] Speaker 1: This is my My question is can he create a
[2:21:08] Speaker 1: burritos so hot that he's unable to eat it?
[2:21:12] Speaker 5: I suppose there's no burrito that's so hot he can
[2:21:15] Speaker 5: that he can't eat it.
[2:21:17] Speaker 1: So my question is Colby, this is dishonesty that he
[2:21:21] Speaker 1: keeps pointing out. I didn't ask you any of those questions.
[2:21:24] Speaker 1: My question is by the way it's a yes or.
[2:21:26] Speaker 5: No is a question I guess is he?
[2:21:28] Speaker 1: Is he capable of creating a burrito that is so
[2:21:32] Speaker 1: hot that he cannot eat it.
[2:21:34] Speaker 5: I've already given you this answer twice.
[2:21:36] Speaker 1: You keep in mind the answer yes or no.
[2:21:41] Speaker 5: No, The answer is beyond yes and no.
[2:21:45] Speaker 2: Let's just let's answer yes.
[2:21:46] Speaker 5: You're not asking.
[2:21:48] Speaker 2: You can't. You can't reason out of the bag. So
[2:21:50] Speaker 2: let's just ask why do you accept the trinity? Even
[2:21:52] Speaker 2: if it were logical?
[2:21:53] Speaker 5: Why why do I accept? Say, say that one more time.
[2:21:58] Speaker 2: Except if the trinity were logical, Why do you accept
[2:22:00] Speaker 2: it as doctrine?
[2:22:03] Speaker 5: Even if it's logical? Why to accept it? Is that
[2:22:05] Speaker 5: what you said logical?
[2:22:06] Speaker 4: Yes?
[2:22:08] Speaker 5: Because I'm a Christian, I believe the Bible.
[2:22:10] Speaker 2: Okay, so whatever the Bible, whatever the Bible says, you
[2:22:13] Speaker 2: just accept.
[2:22:14] Speaker 5: I believe the Bible because I think that the bulk
[2:22:16] Speaker 5: of the evidence supports the Bible. When I look at
[2:22:19] Speaker 5: like all the fields like archaeology, When I look at
[2:22:23] Speaker 5: you know when it was written, how it was written,
[2:22:24] Speaker 5: you know all thees that have already come truvement.
[2:22:27] Speaker 4: Even if the Bible was one, the Bible does not
[2:22:30] Speaker 4: teach the doctrine of the Trinity.
[2:22:35] Speaker 5: I think that it is a little bit unclearly written
[2:22:37] Speaker 5: in the Bible. I would agree with that. And so
[2:22:39] Speaker 5: then get to something I would expect you guys to
[2:22:42] Speaker 5: bring out that, like you know that maybe there's some
[2:22:44] Speaker 5: questions with that particular verse.
[2:22:45] Speaker 2: Okay, so why do you accept the Trinity? Then it's
[2:22:47] Speaker 2: not the Bible? What is it?
[2:22:49] Speaker 5: No, it is the Bible. It is the Bible. I
[2:22:51] Speaker 5: think it's just about the.
[2:22:52] Speaker 2: Bible teaches the Trinity. Where give us the verse?
[2:22:56] Speaker 5: Okay, Uh, let's go at the Gospel of John. In
[2:22:58] Speaker 5: the beginning was the word, and the word was with God.
[2:23:02] Speaker 4: Second time the night, I'm gonna start taking talent John one.
[2:23:06] Speaker 4: So in the Greek of John one one, this is
[2:23:08] Speaker 4: the second time we discussed this tonight. I'm gonna start
[2:23:11] Speaker 4: keeping yes.
[2:23:13] Speaker 5: And the logos is the word of God, which is Jesus.
[2:23:18] Speaker 4: We'll break it, yeah, we'll break it down. So in
[2:23:20] Speaker 4: the Greek it says in our key in the beginning
[2:23:24] Speaker 4: in ho logos was the word kai Ho logos, and
[2:23:28] Speaker 4: the word in prostone, theon was the god Kai theos
[2:23:34] Speaker 4: in logos and and theos was the word. And when
[2:23:38] Speaker 4: it uses the word theos here and your translation it's
[2:23:41] Speaker 4: going to say, and the word was God, but the
[2:23:44] Speaker 4: word the second instance of God and John one one
[2:23:48] Speaker 4: is not a word indicative of identity, is a word
[2:23:52] Speaker 4: indicative of quality. It's better rendered as in the beginning,
[2:23:56] Speaker 4: was the word, and the word was with the deity,
[2:23:58] Speaker 4: And the word was deity. Not that it is the deity,
[2:24:02] Speaker 4: but that it is it has the quality of deity.
[2:24:05] Speaker 4: The word is divine, but not equal to God. This
[2:24:08] Speaker 4: does not teach you the idea that the word is
[2:24:12] Speaker 4: identical with Yahweh.
[2:24:15] Speaker 5: Everything except the last sentence was correct everything.
[2:24:19] Speaker 4: So it's corroborating with my last hold on.
[2:24:24] Speaker 5: A second, No, it doesn't. So when it says deity
[2:24:27] Speaker 5: and you're saying, it's not just the God, it's it's
[2:24:29] Speaker 5: like God, but not the God. So this corroborates. This
[2:24:33] Speaker 5: corroborates a trinity, don't seem.
[2:24:37] Speaker 4: Prior to the Prior to the writing of the Gospel John,
[2:24:40] Speaker 4: Judaism already had a concept of the logos, and the
[2:24:44] Speaker 4: logos in ancient Judaism was not identified as being Yahweh
[2:24:48] Speaker 4: itself well, but was seen as a divine because there
[2:24:51] Speaker 4: are there are more things in Christianity and Judaism that
[2:24:54] Speaker 4: are divine than just Yahweh. Something can be divine or
[2:24:59] Speaker 4: have de and not be the deity.
[2:25:05] Speaker 5: I agree with you that the Jews disagree on whether
[2:25:09] Speaker 5: Jesus is the Messiah, which is to say, God, That's.
[2:25:13] Speaker 4: Not what I said.
[2:25:18] Speaker 5: That's what you're related and just because you want to
[2:25:20] Speaker 5: come and redefine.
[2:25:20] Speaker 4: It, Kobe, Kobe, that's not what I said. What I
[2:25:24] Speaker 4: said was that the concept of the Logos the Word
[2:25:29] Speaker 4: existed prior to the Gospel of John, and it existed
[2:25:33] Speaker 4: within the writings of Philo of Alexandria early first century CE.
[2:25:37] Speaker 4: Philo was a Jew who wrote about the logos, and
[2:25:41] Speaker 4: he even said that the logos was divine, using the
[2:25:44] Speaker 4: Greek word theaos, but it wasn't identical with Yahweh. Something
[2:25:48] Speaker 4: can be divine or have deity without being the deity.
[2:25:54] Speaker 5: You understand, like Jesus or the Holy Spirit, as opposed
[2:25:58] Speaker 5: to the Father.
[2:25:58] Speaker 4: Or Michael, the Arching or Gabriel. Those are also things
[2:26:02] Speaker 4: which have deity or have divinity.
[2:26:07] Speaker 5: Only in the way that angels would would qualify for
[2:26:10] Speaker 5: that because their angels, I.
[2:26:13] Speaker 4: Mean the ancient Christians who have seen Jesus the angels.
[2:26:16] Speaker 5: Are made a little bit higher than us, right, I
[2:26:18] Speaker 5: mean that's what that's what the Bible says. The angels
[2:26:19] Speaker 5: are made a little bit higher than us. It doesn't
[2:26:21] Speaker 5: mean that they're God. They're definitely higher than us.
[2:26:24] Speaker 4: That's what he says.
[2:26:25] Speaker 5: That's the qualify.
[2:26:27] Speaker 4: Yes, but the angels were seen as having divinity and deity.
[2:26:31] Speaker 4: Jesus was no different. Just because the ancient Christians thought
[2:26:34] Speaker 4: that Jesus had deity different, well, no, he was sure different.
[2:26:38] Speaker 4: That he is the highest of all God's creations.
[2:26:42] Speaker 5: Were any other angels there at the creation of the world,
[2:26:45] Speaker 5: does it? Does it say that anywhere in the Bible.
[2:26:46] Speaker 3: No.
[2:26:46] Speaker 4: That's what makes Jesus unique is that he's the he
[2:26:49] Speaker 4: has created. He's a created being, according.
[2:26:51] Speaker 5: To a creative being. He is the only son of God.
[2:26:54] Speaker 4: He's created.
[2:26:55] Speaker 5: Only Mary born him, but he was.
[2:26:59] Speaker 4: The Book of Susians explicitly refers to Jesus as the
[2:27:03] Speaker 4: firstborn of all God's creations.
[2:27:08] Speaker 5: He is the firstborn because he was. He's the alpha.
[2:27:11] Speaker 5: He's just like God. He's the alpha.
[2:27:13] Speaker 4: Firstborn, meaning that he came into being. He's the first
[2:27:17] Speaker 4: thing that came into being. This, again, is something that
[2:27:19] Speaker 4: existed within Judaism. The idea within Judaism God, No, No,
[2:27:25] Speaker 4: God in Judaism is not coming into being. He's eternal,
[2:27:29] Speaker 4: he always has been, always will be. But the logos
[2:27:33] Speaker 4: within Judaism is a created being. It's the first thing
[2:27:36] Speaker 4: which is created, the very thing that God uses as
[2:27:39] Speaker 4: a sort of blueprint for the rest of creation. Hence
[2:27:43] Speaker 4: why the author of Colossians says about Jesus that he
[2:27:45] Speaker 4: is the firstborn of all God's creatures.
[2:27:48] Speaker 5: I think that some of that is the limitation of
[2:27:52] Speaker 5: words that we have as humans. However, if I look
[2:27:55] Speaker 5: back to First John, it says, in the beginning, is
[2:27:58] Speaker 5: the word no in the beginning? Was the word the
[2:28:01] Speaker 5: word was already in the beginning?
[2:28:03] Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in the beginning. That doesn't mean it's eternal.
[2:28:06] Speaker 4: It was. It was the first thing that God created.
[2:28:08] Speaker 5: According to No No, at creation, he already existed. That's
[2:28:12] Speaker 5: what that verse says.
[2:28:13] Speaker 4: Well, no, no, all. It says that he was there
[2:28:15] Speaker 4: in the beginning. It doesn't say that he always existed.
[2:28:18] Speaker 4: So in the instance where.
[2:28:19] Speaker 5: God, there's nothing from the beginning, right as far as
[2:28:24] Speaker 5: humans gore, No.
[2:28:26] Speaker 4: That's not exactly true. There's no there's no real idea
[2:28:30] Speaker 4: within ancient Christianity or Judaism of there being like a
[2:28:33] Speaker 4: definite beginning with nothing before. The universe is sort of eternal.
[2:28:37] Speaker 4: As far as ancient Israelites, we're concerned, there's a Christian
[2:28:40] Speaker 4: but there's a well, even in Christianity, the idea of
[2:28:44] Speaker 4: like there being a definite beginning didn't really arise till
[2:28:47] Speaker 4: a couple hundred years after the inception of Christianity. The
[2:28:51] Speaker 4: ancients would have seeing that the universe is being like
[2:28:53] Speaker 4: this eternal thing, but God has the beginning to create
[2:28:56] Speaker 4: to the act of creation, and Jesus was the first thing.
[2:29:00] Speaker 5: They'd say that there was a beginning. In fact, most
[2:29:02] Speaker 5: of the way it was six thousand years right, I
[2:29:04] Speaker 5: would say a.
[2:29:05] Speaker 4: Beginning, a beginning to this current iteration of the world.
[2:29:09] Speaker 4: But they would have believed that you know things, that
[2:29:12] Speaker 4: there was time and existence before God. The Bible.
[2:29:15] Speaker 5: You're putting things that aren't in there.
[2:29:17] Speaker 4: No, that's not creation.
[2:29:18] Speaker 5: That's that's like a mayan creation.
[2:29:20] Speaker 4: Now create creation ex nihilo is not biblical.
[2:29:24] Speaker 6: Uh.
[2:29:24] Speaker 2: And and also if you accept the nicing Creed.
[2:29:27] Speaker 5: Cole, can you show me another creation in the Bible
[2:29:29] Speaker 5: before our creation?
[2:29:31] Speaker 2: Well, that that would be contradictory. That's not what we're
[2:29:33] Speaker 2: trying to show. The point is that even the nicing Creed.
[2:29:37] Speaker 5: Says that's what he just said, right, That's what you
[2:29:39] Speaker 5: just said, is like, there's more than one creation. That's
[2:29:42] Speaker 5: it's it's kind of.
[2:29:44] Speaker 4: Creation. The creation we are currently experiencing was God's first creation.
[2:29:50] Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that there was nothing that there
[2:29:52] Speaker 4: was absolutely nothingness before that creation began. I mean, when
[2:29:55] Speaker 4: we read Genesis, there are things that already existed before
[2:29:58] Speaker 4: God even begins as act creation, being the darkness and
[2:30:03] Speaker 4: the waters. Those things were already there prior to God
[2:30:06] Speaker 4: even beginning his act of creation.
[2:30:09] Speaker 2: And even on the Trinitarian view, Jesus comes from the
[2:30:12] Speaker 2: bother Do you accept that?
[2:30:18] Speaker 5: Again, I would reference you to John one one.
[2:30:21] Speaker 2: Do you accept the nicing Creed? I would not.
[2:30:26] Speaker 5: Say that the nicing Creed holds the same weight as
[2:30:28] Speaker 5: biblical scriptures.
[2:30:30] Speaker 2: I didn't ask that accept the nice in Creed, not
[2:30:34] Speaker 2: in entirely. Ah, I love to hear it.
[2:30:36] Speaker 3: Right.
[2:30:36] Speaker 2: They would have burned you at the stake at some
[2:30:38] Speaker 2: point in history.
[2:30:40] Speaker 5: I'm sure that there's a lot of things the Catholics
[2:30:42] Speaker 5: might have done throughout time to me because.
[2:30:44] Speaker 4: Catholics, not just the Catholics, the Orthodox would have done
[2:30:48] Speaker 4: the same. Yeah, yeah, again, John and again John one one,
[2:30:56] Speaker 4: if we consider the grammar of the Greek is not
[2:31:00] Speaker 4: a good proof text for the Trinity. Best when it
[2:31:03] Speaker 4: gets you is the idea that Jesus was a divine being.
[2:31:06] Speaker 4: But it doesn't get you to the idea that he
[2:31:08] Speaker 4: was the God of Israel.
[2:31:13] Speaker 5: Well, I mean the God of Israel. I mean, I
[2:31:16] Speaker 5: guess you're really saying the Messiah, and so I look
[2:31:21] Speaker 5: at that a little bit different than Messiah than than God.
[2:31:23] Speaker 5: I mean, those are a kind of two different concepts,
[2:31:25] Speaker 5: a little bit away from your topic.
[2:31:27] Speaker 4: I would say, when I say the God of Israel,
[2:31:29] Speaker 4: I mean Yahweh. John one one does present Jesus being
[2:31:32] Speaker 4: divine and having deity, but not being the same being
[2:31:35] Speaker 4: as Yahweh.
[2:31:37] Speaker 5: I would I would say that that Jesus is I am,
[2:31:40] Speaker 5: that I am. However, he's not the Father, and contradicting
[2:31:44] Speaker 5: is as I say, it sounds contradicting you guys, because
[2:31:47] Speaker 5: that's your whole premise. But I don't think it is contradicting.
[2:31:50] Speaker 5: I think it's just contradicting you guys.
[2:31:51] Speaker 4: Jesus was subordinate to God. Worship God. He had his
[2:31:58] Speaker 4: own will, separate from God. What did not have any
[2:32:01] Speaker 4: of the divine qualities of omnip presence or omnipotence or
[2:32:07] Speaker 4: uh And and then the Bible refers to them as
[2:32:09] Speaker 4: the firstborn of all things that was created.
[2:32:12] Speaker 1: I disagree that what is the word begotten? You know
[2:32:16] Speaker 1: all those are in the Bible. What do you think
[2:32:18] Speaker 1: it means to be forgotten?
[2:32:19] Speaker 5: He's not ready for that are not in the Bible.
[2:32:23] Speaker 1: Let me tell you everything. Everything he just said is
[2:32:25] Speaker 1: literally in the Bible.
[2:32:28] Speaker 4: Colluctions of one fifteen. He is the image of the
[2:32:32] Speaker 4: invisible God, the first born of all creation, firstborn. What
[2:32:39] Speaker 4: does that mean that he's the firstborn of all creation?
[2:32:42] Speaker 5: Yes, like I say, God is the alphae in the America.
[2:32:44] Speaker 1: Means means he's begotten, He's created. He's the firstborn.
[2:32:50] Speaker 5: Is where it's talking about? Like Mary had him as
[2:32:53] Speaker 5: a sign.
[2:32:53] Speaker 4: No, no, no, he is the first born. He's not
[2:32:56] Speaker 4: the firstborn of Mary's children. It's not what it says.
[2:32:58] Speaker 4: This says he is the firstborn of all creation, the
[2:33:01] Speaker 4: first thing born of all creation. The proto tokos.
[2:33:06] Speaker 1: Yes, the alpha, that's us, we're the creation. He's the
[2:33:10] Speaker 1: first of the creation, meaning it couldn't be referring to
[2:33:13] Speaker 1: when he was born into the world two thousand years ago.
[2:33:16] Speaker 1: Obviously prior to that.
[2:33:18] Speaker 2: Did everyone see his blunder? He thought this was saying
[2:33:21] Speaker 2: the first born of Mary.
[2:33:23] Speaker 1: Right, yeah, right, he doesn't Right, he.
[2:33:26] Speaker 2: Doesn't have a memory, right, he doesn't. I don't know what.
[2:33:28] Speaker 2: He's like a fish? Right. He ignores all creation and
[2:33:32] Speaker 2: just inserts his own interpretation because it suits him. What
[2:33:35] Speaker 2: you're itching ears want to hear and see that's what
[2:33:37] Speaker 2: you are.
[2:33:38] Speaker 4: What does the Greek word proto tokos here translated firstborn
[2:33:42] Speaker 4: me and colchi.
[2:33:44] Speaker 5: I don't think one Proto's proto is you know, it's
[2:33:49] Speaker 5: basically the first, the beginning.
[2:33:52] Speaker 4: So it's proto, which you got correct ment first, and toe,
[2:34:00] Speaker 4: which is to bring forth, to bear, to produce, to be.
[2:34:05] Speaker 4: The pro to tokos means that you're the first thing produced,
[2:34:09] Speaker 4: as in, for example, imagine this, a man creates a
[2:34:13] Speaker 4: hammer and then using that hammer, he builds a house.
[2:34:18] Speaker 4: That's how the ancient Christians saw Jesus. They saw God
[2:34:21] Speaker 4: is the builder, Jesus as the hammer, and the universe
[2:34:24] Speaker 4: as the house. Jesus is the first saying that God creates,
[2:34:29] Speaker 4: and from using Jesus as a divine blueprint, God creates
[2:34:33] Speaker 4: everything else.
[2:34:38] Speaker 1: He was a shitty carpenter too, So.
[2:34:45] Speaker 5: I mean, I definitely God is has always been a creator,
[2:34:48] Speaker 5: and that's what's probably why he put himself into a
[2:34:51] Speaker 5: carpenter's role. Right, So.
[2:34:55] Speaker 4: Half that sance was create, correct, God has always been
[2:34:57] Speaker 4: a creator and then the second half of that senship
[2:35:00] Speaker 4: and Jesus has always been a created thing. Unless we
[2:35:04] Speaker 4: just want he's not a colaussion. I guess we just
[2:35:06] Speaker 4: denied colaussions then, right, just fuck cautions.
[2:35:09] Speaker 1: Throw that out. No, but have you forgotten words don't
[2:35:15] Speaker 1: mean words?
[2:35:15] Speaker 4: Don't mean words?
[2:35:18] Speaker 2: And doesn't it also say it in revelation? Am I wrong?
[2:35:23] Speaker 6: Uh?
[2:35:24] Speaker 4: Firstborn? Yeah, that might be firstborn of nomation three fourteen?
[2:35:30] Speaker 1: Let me see, it might be that.
[2:35:31] Speaker 5: Can we check that?
[2:35:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, let me see.
[2:35:38] Speaker 5: You know, kind of getting back to your original original
[2:35:43] Speaker 5: premise here, let me read First John five seven through eight.
[2:35:48] Speaker 5: For there are three witness, the Father, the Word, and
[2:35:51] Speaker 5: the Holy Spirit. And these three are one, and these
[2:35:55] Speaker 5: are the three the bear, witness, the Spirit, and the
[2:35:58] Speaker 5: water and the blood.
[2:36:00] Speaker 4: These three our an agreement is prior to the sixteenth century.
[2:36:05] Speaker 4: There's not a single fourteenth century fifte fifteen hundred, the
[2:36:10] Speaker 4: fourteenth century, No, the sixteenth century.
[2:36:14] Speaker 5: Yeah, so there's a there's a there's no fourteenth century.
[2:36:19] Speaker 4: I got No. Fifteen fifty is when I got my
[2:36:21] Speaker 4: first copy here.
[2:36:23] Speaker 1: Yeah. Erasmuss was around in the fifteen hundreds. He's the
[2:36:28] Speaker 1: guy who made this part of his critical edition.
[2:36:32] Speaker 4: Okay, there's not a single Bible contains the passage you're quoting.
[2:36:37] Speaker 5: Kolby it says, uh says here it says these words.
[2:36:44] Speaker 5: For one second, let me we'll get a little bit closer.
[2:36:48] Speaker 5: These words are found in Greek manuscripts, uh, dating no
[2:36:52] Speaker 5: earlier than the fourteenth century. That's what I have right here.
[2:36:55] Speaker 4: Fine, even if we use that your your your notes here,
[2:36:59] Speaker 4: that means that there's not a single Bible prior the
[2:37:03] Speaker 4: fourteenth century. So so quoting first five seven isn't going
[2:37:07] Speaker 4: to get you anywhere because this is a fabricated text.
[2:37:11] Speaker 5: However, I would say that most of the text we
[2:37:13] Speaker 5: have in that time are bits and pieces of manuscripts.
[2:37:17] Speaker 5: We have very few full texts.
[2:37:19] Speaker 13: No, the.
[2:37:21] Speaker 4: Codex Vaticanis, Codex Sitana, Cannis are full.
[2:37:24] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, can I agree with you?
[2:37:27] Speaker 1: In Washington we have.
[2:37:28] Speaker 4: Full Yeah, we don't have we have full text of
[2:37:31] Speaker 4: the New Testament that don't contain this verse. The evidence
[2:37:35] Speaker 4: would lead us to believe. And that's what we go
[2:37:38] Speaker 4: by here because you know me and Justin and when Dan,
[2:37:41] Speaker 4: we respect on some level what the Bible says. So
[2:37:45] Speaker 4: we use the evidence, and the evidence tells us that
[2:37:48] Speaker 4: prior to the fourteenth century, there the First John five
[2:37:51] Speaker 4: seven is non existent, at least the segment the Joe
[2:37:54] Speaker 4: and I comma, and therefore probably wasn't written by the
[2:37:57] Speaker 4: author of First John.
[2:38:00] Speaker 2: Can we go to Revelation through fourteen? I want to
[2:38:02] Speaker 2: know what he's going to say to that?
[2:38:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on remembers three fourteen.
[2:38:12] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, look at that. That's a good thing.
[2:38:14] Speaker 1: And to the Angel of the Church in Laodicea, write
[2:38:18] Speaker 1: the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witnesses
[2:38:22] Speaker 1: the origin of God's creation.
[2:38:26] Speaker 2: Who's the witness there?
[2:38:27] Speaker 5: Colby, let me read it one more time. In the
[2:38:32] Speaker 5: Angel of the Church, lay out to see you. Right,
[2:38:35] Speaker 5: these things say to the Amen, the faithful and the
[2:38:38] Speaker 5: true witness from the beginning of creation of God. So no,
[2:38:43] Speaker 5: not at the beginning of.
[2:38:46] Speaker 4: It doesn't say from the beginning. It says it says, hey, hey,
[2:38:52] Speaker 4: arek taste too, that he's identifying as the beginning or
[2:38:58] Speaker 4: the origin of God's creation. There's a definite article before
[2:39:03] Speaker 4: the word archa, meaning beginning.
[2:39:14] Speaker 5: I mean, you're not talking about it after the beginning.
[2:39:16] Speaker 5: You're talking about at the beginning of creation. He's already there,
[2:39:20] Speaker 5: the same as the person.
[2:39:21] Speaker 4: It's John. These are all titles and identifiers about who
[2:39:26] Speaker 4: Jesus is. He is the Amen, he is the faithful
[2:39:29] Speaker 4: and true witness, and he is the origin of God's
[2:39:32] Speaker 4: creation or the beginning. Rather, it's the Greek word arcade.
[2:39:35] Speaker 4: It's the same word used in John one one for
[2:39:37] Speaker 4: in the beginning, Jesus is the beginning of God's creation.
[2:39:43] Speaker 3: Right.
[2:39:43] Speaker 2: If the writer Revelation believed what you believed Colby, he
[2:39:46] Speaker 2: would write that the faithful and true witness, the somebody
[2:39:52] Speaker 2: that can indicate that the thing that's prior to all creation. Right,
[2:39:56] Speaker 2: But it doesn't say that before. It doesn't say before creation.
[2:40:01] Speaker 2: It says he is the origin or the beginning of creation,
[2:40:05] Speaker 2: which makes him part of it.
[2:40:12] Speaker 5: So the author of the Book of John and Revelation
[2:40:15] Speaker 5: of the same author. It's it's John the Apostle.
[2:40:17] Speaker 1: No, no, not John the Revelator or John the Elder
[2:40:21] Speaker 1: is even in church history is the traditional author of
[2:40:24] Speaker 1: the Book of Revelation.
[2:40:27] Speaker 4: And also we don't know who wrote John, but that's
[2:40:29] Speaker 4: besides the point.
[2:40:30] Speaker 5: Definitely not really like I mean, he talks about, you know,
[2:40:33] Speaker 5: like him running faster than Peter in it, the apostile
[2:40:36] Speaker 5: that the Jesus love that sort of thing.
[2:40:38] Speaker 1: He doesn't say anything about himself.
[2:40:40] Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it talks about and he uses euphemism
[2:40:45] Speaker 5: to say it's the one that Jesus loved, right, yeah.
[2:40:47] Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't know who that is, and that could
[2:40:49] Speaker 4: just as well.
[2:40:50] Speaker 5: The apostle John. It's pretty obvious.
[2:40:52] Speaker 1: Certainly not obvious because if you go to the chapter
[2:40:56] Speaker 1: twenty one, there's clearly multiple authors, and they seem to
[2:41:00] Speaker 1: be receiving people's testimony and says, this is the disciple
[2:41:03] Speaker 1: who is testifying to these things and has written them,
[2:41:06] Speaker 1: and we know that his testimony is true, but there
[2:41:09] Speaker 1: are also many other things. This is the part we
[2:41:13] Speaker 1: know his testimony is true. Who's ever writing this book
[2:41:16] Speaker 1: is a.
[2:41:16] Speaker 5: We So he's talking about him and the other apostles
[2:41:20] Speaker 5: there and as you just said, you said disciple, and.
[2:41:25] Speaker 4: That makes apostle Colby wearing the text is to identify
[2:41:30] Speaker 4: the beloved Disciple as being John. Because I'll tell you this,
[2:41:35] Speaker 4: the Gospel of John, prior to the first the first
[2:41:39] Speaker 4: appearance of Lazarus, there's no mention of the beloved Disciple,
[2:41:43] Speaker 4: and Lazarus is called the disciple that Jesus loves. And
[2:41:46] Speaker 4: the fact that he's resurrected from the dead, it makes
[2:41:48] Speaker 4: sense that Peter would look to him at the end
[2:41:50] Speaker 4: of the gospel and say, what about this one? Is
[2:41:51] Speaker 4: he going to die?
[2:41:54] Speaker 5: So, I mean from from the from the book, we
[2:41:57] Speaker 5: know that he must have been a Jew when he's
[2:41:58] Speaker 5: writing this from the out of the book.
[2:42:00] Speaker 1: There's no one no, he certainly wasn't a Jew.
[2:42:04] Speaker 4: First like, for example, I was actually going to bring
[2:42:06] Speaker 4: this up to you as a contradiction you could bring
[2:42:10] Speaker 4: forth later just in. But the author of the Gospel
[2:42:14] Speaker 4: John has Jesus quoting psal Maty two out of context,
[2:42:18] Speaker 4: but also refers to psal Manty two as part of
[2:42:21] Speaker 4: quote your law. The saal Manty two is not part
[2:42:25] Speaker 4: of the law Moses, and a Jewish author would not
[2:42:29] Speaker 4: refer to the law as your law, he would call
[2:42:31] Speaker 4: it our law. And the author would not refer to
[2:42:34] Speaker 4: the Passover as of the festival of the Jews.
[2:42:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing in John that would lead one to
[2:42:41] Speaker 1: believe what was written by Jew. There's about thirty different
[2:42:44] Speaker 1: times John says or the Gospel says that the Jews
[2:42:48] Speaker 1: did this or the Jews did that. Never once does
[2:42:51] Speaker 1: the author include himself as part of the Jewish community.
[2:42:56] Speaker 5: I very much disagree with that, and I know that
[2:42:59] Speaker 5: this Gospel was written in But they would have they
[2:43:03] Speaker 5: would have they would have multiple languages that they would know,
[2:43:07] Speaker 5: you know, including Aramic and Greek and judas well, all
[2:43:10] Speaker 5: spoken in Juem at the time.
[2:43:12] Speaker 4: Well no, so no, they would not all be the average.
[2:43:15] Speaker 5: Jew as they were speak There were all three spoken.
[2:43:18] Speaker 4: The average Jew would have spoken Aramaic as their tongue.
[2:43:22] Speaker 4: They may have known some Hebrew when they went to
[2:43:24] Speaker 4: the synagogue, and they would not know Greek. You would
[2:43:27] Speaker 4: have to be very educated and they were to learn Greek.
[2:43:30] Speaker 3: Uh.
[2:43:30] Speaker 4: And for them, I mean John, according to the.
[2:43:35] Speaker 5: John was like in charge, right Haridas and stuff like that.
[2:43:38] Speaker 1: There there wasn't a Jew.
[2:43:40] Speaker 4: Caesar's not a Jew. You're mistaking, you're conflating Caesar and
[2:43:44] Speaker 4: or those are two different people. And again the actually
[2:43:47] Speaker 4: the Apostles explicitly refers to John has been.
[2:43:51] Speaker 5: I'm talking about people. I'm talking about both those people.
[2:43:54] Speaker 5: So there's a lot of Romans and there's a lot
[2:43:58] Speaker 5: of Greeks that are in inal.
[2:44:00] Speaker 4: Harod is not Roman or Greek. He's a Doomian.
[2:44:05] Speaker 5: Well, okay, that's that is correct. However, yeah, yeah, I
[2:44:09] Speaker 5: know he comes from the two brothers that like split
[2:44:11] Speaker 5: off from you know, Israel and stuff like that.
[2:44:12] Speaker 4: I get it.
[2:44:14] Speaker 5: However, the Romans basically like had basically put him in
[2:44:18] Speaker 5: charge there, and so that's that's the thing, is that,
[2:44:22] Speaker 5: like there's the reasons to know, Like.
[2:44:26] Speaker 4: Why wouldn't he I mean, it would make sense for
[2:44:28] Speaker 4: Herod as a king and politically.
[2:44:29] Speaker 5: Were they not writing since then back to Rome.
[2:44:34] Speaker 4: I mean, it would be fine for Herod as a
[2:44:36] Speaker 4: politician to know Greek. That doesn't mean that an average
[2:44:39] Speaker 4: fisherman would know Greek just because the king would know it.
[2:44:43] Speaker 4: That doesn't that doesn't correlate.
[2:44:46] Speaker 5: I think I think a lot of times these guys
[2:44:48] Speaker 5: might have needed to know a little bit more just
[2:44:50] Speaker 5: because you know, if you look at the Bible, they're
[2:44:52] Speaker 5: dealing quite a bit with the same. All the religious lators,
[2:44:57] Speaker 5: with all their political leaders.
[2:45:00] Speaker 4: Explicitly calls the John unlearned.
[2:45:12] Speaker 5: Where is that happening?
[2:45:13] Speaker 4: I'm learning Chapter four, isn't it? Yeah? They were. They
[2:45:17] Speaker 4: called John and Peter and James a gram.
[2:45:20] Speaker 5: Are you saying John? Chapter four somewhere?
[2:45:22] Speaker 4: No acts?
[2:45:27] Speaker 5: Okay, so act was not written by the same person
[2:45:31] Speaker 5: as or John.
[2:45:32] Speaker 4: So, so is acts wrong? Then John isn't unlettered?
[2:45:37] Speaker 5: What verse is it in chapter four? I don't know
[2:45:39] Speaker 5: what verson we're really talking about.
[2:45:41] Speaker 4: Let me find it, John, Let's see Acts four thirteen. Yep.
[2:45:51] Speaker 4: It says that they are uneducated or unlettered or illiterate,
[2:45:55] Speaker 4: depending on your translation. But the Greek cure is a gurra'mati,
[2:46:00] Speaker 4: which is a without in letters.
[2:46:04] Speaker 5: Yeah. Referring to Peter and John, he's referring to the
[2:46:07] Speaker 5: fact that they couldn't write and read. He's referring to
[2:46:09] Speaker 5: the fact that they knew. He was marveling at the
[2:46:12] Speaker 5: fact that, you mean, a bunch of these scriptures from before.
[2:46:14] Speaker 4: If you look at how could they know scriptures? If
[2:46:17] Speaker 4: they're like, how could they read and write? And how
[2:46:19] Speaker 4: could they know the scriptures when they came and read
[2:46:21] Speaker 4: and write.
[2:46:23] Speaker 1: That's what it means to be unlettered.
[2:46:24] Speaker 5: He's saying, how how would they know the scriptures? Because
[2:46:28] Speaker 5: it's like it's in the Middle Ages, you probably wouldn't
[2:46:30] Speaker 5: know the scriptures.
[2:46:32] Speaker 4: Because you couldn't read. If you're in the Middle Ages,
[2:46:34] Speaker 4: you didn't know the scriptures, it's because you were unlettered.
[2:46:37] Speaker 4: That's what a gramato means.
[2:46:42] Speaker 5: I don't have the uh, I don't have the Greek.
[2:46:47] Speaker 4: It just means the Greek.
[2:46:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, without letters, I'll put up for you.
[2:46:53] Speaker 5: So the Greek we have, I would say that they
[2:46:56] Speaker 5: the letters don't have would be like the Old Testament.
[2:47:00] Speaker 4: You know, they know they were called they are literally
[2:47:03] Speaker 4: called idiotase a toy uh.
[2:47:06] Speaker 5: These are in this verse. I don't see that.
[2:47:08] Speaker 4: In this verse Act four thirteen.
[2:47:12] Speaker 5: They were called idiots and next four thirteen because I
[2:47:14] Speaker 5: don't see.
[2:47:15] Speaker 1: No idiots the Greek.
[2:47:18] Speaker 4: Yeah there no, the Greek is idiot, is not the
[2:47:22] Speaker 4: el idiots.
[2:47:25] Speaker 5: To idiotaes are you saying means uneducated or untrained? What
[2:47:28] Speaker 5: are you saying which one of that? Does that mean?
[2:47:30] Speaker 4: Yes? Then the common folks who are unlettered.
[2:47:36] Speaker 5: I know you're showing me, you're trying to show me
[2:47:38] Speaker 5: some of the Greek after I can't really read.
[2:47:40] Speaker 4: That is something explain. So what does the prefix a
[2:47:44] Speaker 4: meaning Greek?
[2:47:45] Speaker 5: Colby, I guess not like not.
[2:47:50] Speaker 4: Then you have the word drama, which is where we
[2:47:52] Speaker 4: get the word grammar, and it means letters.
[2:47:55] Speaker 5: Not grammared I got it.
[2:47:56] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[2:47:57] Speaker 5: However, without letter that does not necessarily only mean that
[2:48:01] Speaker 5: they can't read or write. That could also mean, in
[2:48:03] Speaker 5: this case, that they didn't know that they should have known, like.
[2:48:08] Speaker 2: They didn't know calculus, or they didn't know physics. That's
[2:48:12] Speaker 2: the well, that could mean that, right, Colby, the.
[2:48:14] Speaker 5: Talmud, right they're talking about.
[2:48:21] Speaker 4: No, the Talmbo didn't exist as a written text yet.
[2:48:23] Speaker 4: It's paired with the Greek word idiotes, which is like
[2:48:26] Speaker 4: the word for like the common folks. The Hebrew cognate
[2:48:31] Speaker 4: would be amaha erits like these are common folk who
[2:48:34] Speaker 4: are unlettered. When you have the Greek words idiotes and
[2:48:38] Speaker 4: agra mattoi next to each other, the indication indication here
[2:48:41] Speaker 4: is that these people are not educated. They cannot write,
[2:48:45] Speaker 4: they can't not read, they're just common focus mostly because remember,
[2:48:50] Speaker 4: the vast majority of people in the Roman Empire were
[2:48:54] Speaker 4: illiterate and could not read or write. They barely understand
[2:48:59] Speaker 4: that they had. Why you've had to.
[2:49:02] Speaker 5: He's saying that they have understanding of the of the scriptures. Here,
[2:49:07] Speaker 5: he's amazing that they have understanding of the scriptures.
[2:49:10] Speaker 4: Well, no, they're surprised by their their understanding of the
[2:49:13] Speaker 4: scripture because of the fact that they cannot read or write.
[2:49:16] Speaker 5: I think it's because they shouldn't have had that much
[2:49:19] Speaker 5: understanding of the scriptures.
[2:49:20] Speaker 1: Because Kobe's having a big old glass of Copa cola
[2:49:26] Speaker 1: right now. Like, Kobe, we appreciate you coming up, but
[2:49:35] Speaker 1: I think we've had you up for a while now.
[2:49:38] Speaker 1: It's been forty five minutes, and so far it sounds
[2:49:42] Speaker 1: like the basis of your argument of all of our
[2:49:44] Speaker 1: points have been not all. And that's fine if you
[2:49:48] Speaker 1: think that's a strong argument. We're not particularly persuaded by
[2:49:50] Speaker 1: the not all argument. But we appreciate you coming up
[2:49:53] Speaker 1: and having a chat with us.
[2:49:55] Speaker 5: All right, have a good night, guys, truth.
[2:49:59] Speaker 6: Bye bye.
[2:50:01] Speaker 4: Like do they not know that we know what these
[2:50:03] Speaker 4: Greek words mean? Like, it's not like this is a
[2:50:05] Speaker 4: new language. I just discovered. I say we, I mean humanity.
[2:50:10] Speaker 4: We all know the humanity knows what these Greek words mean. People.
[2:50:16] Speaker 1: That is a man that did not want to be
[2:50:20] Speaker 1: honest under any circumstances, no matter what, don't be honest.
[2:50:25] Speaker 1: Let me grab a couple super test friends. We'll get
[2:50:26] Speaker 1: our next guest up in here. We've got a super
[2:50:29] Speaker 1: chat from our friend Carnage a sada. Thank you so much.
[2:50:31] Speaker 1: As I realized I'm just too dumb to get to Trinity,
[2:50:35] Speaker 1: Bro really pled guilty to logic and intelligence. I mean
[2:50:39] Speaker 1: you kind of have to as a Christian, Like, once
[2:50:41] Speaker 1: you recognize that it's illogical, you can either deny it
[2:50:45] Speaker 1: like Colby, or you can be like honestly like, yeah,
[2:50:49] Speaker 1: it's fucking irrational, but I believe it anyways, right, I
[2:50:53] Speaker 1: think that that that's the only two options, right or deconvert.
[2:50:56] Speaker 1: Timson sounds like he's oh shit, Timson sounds like he's
[2:50:59] Speaker 1: stick a big class of copacal Doug. Doug has made
[2:51:05] Speaker 1: Tim and I one today, mister, and Mistres says justin.
[2:51:09] Speaker 1: They just canceled Jimmy Kimmel's late night comedy show. Well, yeah,
[2:51:12] Speaker 1: it's been on the air for like what twelve years
[2:51:15] Speaker 1: and no one watches it anymore.
[2:51:16] Speaker 2: It's because of his comments about Charlie Kirk.
[2:51:19] Speaker 1: Oh fuck, well, yeah, that's gonna happen. You know, guys,
[2:51:21] Speaker 1: if you know anything about the current administration is that
[2:51:24] Speaker 1: they don't like free speech. They're gonna shut down dissenters
[2:51:27] Speaker 1: as much as humanly possible. Most important to vote, all these.
[2:51:32] Speaker 4: Late night talk show who's who are getting kicked off
[2:51:34] Speaker 4: their stream are going to end up forming a coalition.
[2:51:37] Speaker 4: They're gonna get together and start their own YouTube channel.
[2:51:40] Speaker 4: That's gonna like the government are gonna be able to
[2:51:42] Speaker 4: do anything about it, right.
[2:51:44] Speaker 1: Right, These Christians are the worst. I agree with you, mister, mister.
[2:51:47] Speaker 1: It's it's a dire situation. HC says, don't confuse me
[2:51:52] Speaker 1: with logic. I know what I know, I know right,
[2:51:55] Speaker 1: don't talk all this logic bullshit progress. Christianity is a lot.
[2:52:00] Speaker 1: Couldn't agree any more than that Christianity is completely I logical,
[2:52:04] Speaker 1: And Parana says rock hard for Doug, I breed Tarantula's
[2:52:08] Speaker 1: whenever I post pictures Christians emerged from the bushes looking
[2:52:11] Speaker 1: for reasons to pick a fight about evolution. Just look
[2:52:14] Speaker 1: at the goddamn spider barbecue onward. Yeah, you know what,
[2:52:18] Speaker 1: I'll never understand Christians often repeated line of just look
[2:52:23] Speaker 1: around you How how can you not believe in God?
[2:52:26] Speaker 1: Because I did look around and I don't see you
[2:52:28] Speaker 1: fucking God.
[2:52:30] Speaker 2: And I also don't understand breeding trantulas. I couldn't be
[2:52:36] Speaker 2: near your place. That's yeah.
[2:52:41] Speaker 4: I feel like the next time I have a really
[2:52:43] Speaker 4: obstinate Christian asking me for proof of evolution, I'm just
[2:52:45] Speaker 4: going to say, well, look at the trees.
[2:52:48] Speaker 1: Hmmm, I've done that before. They don't know what to
[2:52:51] Speaker 1: do with it. Jack, that I rather see the.
[2:52:55] Speaker 2: Trees in the tarantula's like, oh, I freaking hate spiders.
[2:52:58] Speaker 1: I'm actually with you there, I'm with you there. Jack
[2:53:01] Speaker 1: Demus says he had a conversation with a universalist last night. Well,
[2:53:05] Speaker 1: that could go one of two ways. He kept on
[2:53:07] Speaker 1: claiming that the Bible says hell is an eternal Well,
[2:53:10] Speaker 1: that's not really true, and that the Greek word for
[2:53:12] Speaker 1: eternal actually refers to some thousand year period. Is there
[2:53:15] Speaker 1: any evidence for that? Not really, So what they're going
[2:53:18] Speaker 1: to point to is that like aon in Greek and
[2:53:25] Speaker 1: fuck olam in heroes. Yeah, like they're just going to
[2:53:30] Speaker 1: point out that, like there's a semantic range and that
[2:53:33] Speaker 1: there's a couple times in the Bible where it's used
[2:53:36] Speaker 1: to refer to things that aren't necessarily eternal, And I
[2:53:39] Speaker 1: don't think it's a good argument, Like nine times out
[2:53:42] Speaker 1: of ten the words are going to be used to
[2:53:44] Speaker 1: refer to things that are eternal, like God's existence. So
[2:53:49] Speaker 1: I totally get like the compulsion to be like, oh fuck,
[2:53:52] Speaker 1: what if eternal? Does it mean eternal? But it's just
[2:53:55] Speaker 1: like a trickier game of words don't mean words. There
[2:53:58] Speaker 1: is more of a game of well, this word could
[2:54:01] Speaker 1: mean something else. So every time I see it, can
[2:54:04] Speaker 1: I just translate it as the thing I wanted to
[2:54:06] Speaker 1: be rather the thing that it should be. And the
[2:54:08] Speaker 1: reality is it's not a great way to do.
[2:54:10] Speaker 4: It when you have words like that in Hebrew Greek
[2:54:13] Speaker 4: where they have a wide semantic range. Best to just
[2:54:16] Speaker 4: look at the immediate context to give you some idea
[2:54:19] Speaker 4: about because if it's the afterlife, generally that's an eternal
[2:54:23] Speaker 4: sort of situation. And if anytime olam doesn't mean eternal,
[2:54:26] Speaker 4: it's because there's a sort of the immediate context will
[2:54:29] Speaker 4: tell you for.
[2:54:31] Speaker 1: Sure context is king, I've got three more super chats,
[2:54:34] Speaker 1: good questions. Still trying to rebound from the conversation, says
[2:54:38] Speaker 1: classical logic has limited applications. It doesn't apply to quantum
[2:54:42] Speaker 1: or relativistic problems. That's why we invented other logics. With
[2:54:47] Speaker 1: Danny's approach, no microchips and no GPS navigation. I don't
[2:54:52] Speaker 1: know about that. I've programmed GPS before. I never had
[2:54:56] Speaker 1: to use a different form of logic. I don't know
[2:54:58] Speaker 1: what logic you're using to program GP, but I didn't
[2:55:00] Speaker 1: need anything other than the classical love of logic I.
[2:55:04] Speaker 2: Don't even know what non classical logic would. I mean,
[2:55:07] Speaker 2: does he want to say they're just true contradictions? And
[2:55:09] Speaker 2: I mean, like, is that what you want to do?
[2:55:12] Speaker 6: Right?
[2:55:12] Speaker 1: That's it. I don't know what he did, but he's
[2:55:14] Speaker 1: got more. He says the Trinity does not follow classical logic.
[2:55:18] Speaker 1: We agree. It uses a hot ad hoc logic invented
[2:55:22] Speaker 1: by Christians Greek thinkers. If you want to talk about God,
[2:55:25] Speaker 1: you need to use the props of the fantasty script.
[2:55:28] Speaker 1: Well we don't. We're rejecting forms of logic that don't
[2:55:32] Speaker 1: logic it's okay if you adhere to logic that we
[2:55:35] Speaker 1: don't adhere to. Our claim is based on the logic
[2:55:38] Speaker 1: that ninety nine percent of everyone here holds to. And
[2:55:41] Speaker 1: last month from our friend Adele, great to see you, Adele,
[2:55:44] Speaker 1: to love the topic and the background. Friend. I've been
[2:55:47] Speaker 1: listening but had to take oh had to take down
[2:55:50] Speaker 1: the family at Uno. Congratulations, no mercy while listening I won.
[2:55:55] Speaker 1: Thanks Peter Duck. Hell yeah, Doug Maker Uno hand rock
[2:55:58] Speaker 1: hard and I hope you got some draw force to
[2:56:01] Speaker 1: throw at some of your family members for when they
[2:56:04] Speaker 1: act up. Good to hear from me Adele. Thanks for
[2:56:06] Speaker 1: the super chat. Now. Sappy's been waiting to get into
[2:56:09] Speaker 1: the conversation, so I'm gonna grab Sappy real quick from
[2:56:13] Speaker 1: our YouTube Q. Welcome in, Sappy. Sappy has been waiting
[2:56:20] Speaker 1: for a while. I hope they're still with us. Sappy, Yeah,
[2:56:24] Speaker 1: we can hear him. Is a little quiet, but we
[2:56:26] Speaker 1: can hear him. Well, it might not be quiet. It
[2:56:29] Speaker 1: might just be that your connection is crappy. So Sappy's
[2:56:32] Speaker 1: got a crappy connection. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
[2:56:37] Speaker 1: It's it's a rough we have it. Do you believe
[2:56:39] Speaker 1: you do?
[2:56:40] Speaker 4: You do you believe in the First Amendment?
[2:56:43] Speaker 1: What I think you're lost? We're talking about the Trinity.
[2:56:48] Speaker 6: Yeah, but that's what I try to get it.
[2:56:49] Speaker 5: Do you believe in the First Amendment?
[2:56:52] Speaker 1: What do you mean by what do you mean by
[2:56:53] Speaker 1: believing it?
[2:56:56] Speaker 5: Do you believe in the First Amendment?
[2:56:59] Speaker 1: Do I believe it exists? Yeah?
[2:57:04] Speaker 6: All right?
[2:57:04] Speaker 4: What's the relevance?
[2:57:06] Speaker 6: Uh?
[2:57:06] Speaker 5: Do you have a weight limit with these people?
[2:57:10] Speaker 2: What's wrong with you?
[2:57:11] Speaker 1: I think I think he's lost. I think he's he's
[2:57:13] Speaker 1: in the wrong place. Did you get lost in the
[2:57:15] Speaker 1: way in?
[2:57:16] Speaker 5: I think you should.
[2:57:18] Speaker 11: I think you should do like only two hundred and
[2:57:21] Speaker 11: twenty pound people.
[2:57:23] Speaker 15: If you do above that, it's like, I don't know,
[2:57:25] Speaker 15: you're getting like a biased opinion.
[2:57:27] Speaker 6: I don't know.
[2:57:28] Speaker 4: Oh, you should probably get rid of you.
[2:57:29] Speaker 1: Then do you think do you think Danny's fat? Who
[2:57:32] Speaker 1: do you think is fat?
[2:57:32] Speaker 6: Here?
[2:57:36] Speaker 5: Are you fat?
[2:57:37] Speaker 6: Too? Maybe not?
[2:57:38] Speaker 5: Maybe not above two twenty?
[2:57:40] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[2:57:40] Speaker 5: Depends on like the height and weight.
[2:57:42] Speaker 1: Okay, so all right, so not Donald Trump?
[2:57:48] Speaker 6: I guess.
[2:57:50] Speaker 1: Okay, So what's this guy do with the topic?
[2:57:54] Speaker 6: Nothing?
[2:57:55] Speaker 5: Really, I just want to say that it's like, you know, man.
[2:57:59] Speaker 1: No one cares, all Right, we're gonna move on to
[2:58:03] Speaker 1: hopefully an adult. I don't know what that was, but
[2:58:06] Speaker 1: I hope your mother wasn't listening. She's not gonna like that.
[2:58:12] Speaker 1: I wonder, uh, I wonder why if fat people were relevant?
[2:58:15] Speaker 1: Now was he? I? I feel like he was trying
[2:58:19] Speaker 1: to talk about somebody on the stage.
[2:58:21] Speaker 4: But I mean, I don't know. I am over I
[2:58:24] Speaker 4: am two hundred and forty pounds. So maybe it's a
[2:58:26] Speaker 4: jeb at me.
[2:58:27] Speaker 1: I don't know, But how can you How could have
[2:58:30] Speaker 1: you possibly known it?
[2:58:32] Speaker 4: Unless he follows me around? I don't know. I've got
[2:58:34] Speaker 4: a lot.
[2:58:35] Speaker 2: It's just weird.
[2:58:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like a weirdo. All right, let me
[2:58:41] Speaker 1: grab Austin from the queue. Welcome in, Austin's. Yeah, Austin,
[2:58:54] Speaker 1: you're you're really really quiet over there. Can you get
[2:58:56] Speaker 1: close to your microphones? It's a little better. See if
[2:59:00] Speaker 1: that works.
[2:59:03] Speaker 13: Hold on, let me it might be my microphone.
[2:59:06] Speaker 17: I can go get my other if you want me
[2:59:08] Speaker 17: to come back.
[2:59:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like you've got a focus right microphone.
[2:59:12] Speaker 1: Does it have a manual gain knob?
[2:59:15] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[2:59:16] Speaker 21: I turned the game all the way up the quality
[2:59:18] Speaker 21: the mic. Let me go get my other mic. If
[2:59:20] Speaker 21: you want to kick me out and I can message
[2:59:21] Speaker 21: you with Actually, I.
[2:59:22] Speaker 1: Mean I think it's okay. I can hear them. Everyone
[2:59:26] Speaker 1: else can hear you.
[2:59:28] Speaker 4: I can sing.
[2:59:29] Speaker 13: They can't hear.
[2:59:30] Speaker 1: Well, they're a little bit delayed. I turned your microphone up.
[2:59:33] Speaker 1: They should be able to hear you now, Oh okay, cool,
[2:59:37] Speaker 1: it should be okay. So Austin, are you at least eighteen?
[2:59:41] Speaker 1: And do you believe in the Trinity?
[2:59:45] Speaker 13: Yes? And I do.
[2:59:48] Speaker 1: Okay? And uh, do you think that the Trinity is
[2:59:51] Speaker 1: logical or illogical?
[2:59:54] Speaker 13: I think it depends on the stance you take.
[2:59:57] Speaker 21: I was in your livestream a couple of months ago
[3:00:00] Speaker 21: regarding the argument God is not real, prove you wrong
[3:00:07] Speaker 21: kind of platform, and I said that I don't think
[3:00:11] Speaker 21: there's a way to prove the existence of God or disprove.
[3:00:15] Speaker 17: It's all based off faith. And if you have faith,
[3:00:18] Speaker 17: I think it's a.
[3:00:18] Speaker 21: Primally it's perfectly okay to believe in God and everything
[3:00:23] Speaker 21: like in religion.
[3:00:26] Speaker 1: Okay. So do you think that the Trinity is illogical
[3:00:29] Speaker 1: or not logical? Or sorry? Do you think the Trinity
[3:00:33] Speaker 1: is logical or not logical?
[3:00:35] Speaker 4: Yes?
[3:00:35] Speaker 17: I think it's logical.
[3:00:37] Speaker 1: Okay, How do you.
[3:00:39] Speaker 2: Why if we count normally, it seems like we get
[3:00:41] Speaker 2: three gods. How are you counting to one God?
[3:00:46] Speaker 13: So that's one of the things.
[3:00:47] Speaker 21: So I grew up Catholic, that's one of the things
[3:00:50] Speaker 21: that we So the Catholic Catechism explains that it's not
[3:00:54] Speaker 21: it's a mystery.
[3:00:55] Speaker 17: That's not something that can be fully explained.
[3:01:00] Speaker 6: What do you.
[3:01:02] Speaker 2: Go ahead?
[3:01:02] Speaker 1: Sorry, what do you think the word mystery is doing
[3:01:05] Speaker 1: for you?
[3:01:05] Speaker 18: There?
[3:01:09] Speaker 13: Give you that one more time.
[3:01:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're saying it's a mystery, but I don't know
[3:01:12] Speaker 1: what that means. What what's the word mystery doing for
[3:01:14] Speaker 1: your position?
[3:01:21] Speaker 21: Honestly, I don't know. I mean, I'm like I said,
[3:01:24] Speaker 21: I'm going through this based off faith. I don't I'm
[3:01:27] Speaker 21: not gonna sit here and say God is not real
[3:01:30] Speaker 21: or God is reel in.
[3:01:32] Speaker 2: Perfectly Austin, you seem like a really nice guy, but
[3:01:35] Speaker 2: I am confused. Why are you up here?
[3:01:39] Speaker 21: Hopefully I can make a little bit more sense than
[3:01:42] Speaker 21: most of the guests that are on here.
[3:01:43] Speaker 4: I know.
[3:01:46] Speaker 2: When you say mystery, you're just giving up.
[3:01:53] Speaker 4: One moment.
[3:01:54] Speaker 21: Let me find the Catechism paragraph on the Trinity.
[3:01:59] Speaker 4: Do you only accept the Trinity because it's Catholic dogma
[3:02:03] Speaker 4: or do you only accept it because it's scripture as
[3:02:07] Speaker 4: opposed to any logical reason.
[3:02:10] Speaker 21: I would say Catholic dogma something I've been taught my
[3:02:14] Speaker 21: entire life growing up, and something I've come to believe.
[3:02:21] Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, but so look, you understand the basic problem. Okay.
[3:02:25] Speaker 2: In fact, you use the counting method that we normally
[3:02:28] Speaker 2: use to say that there's three persons, right, it's because
[3:02:32] Speaker 2: Jesus' Father Holy Spirit that they're different, that they're three persons,
[3:02:36] Speaker 2: and if you count consistently, you get that there're three gods.
[3:02:39] Speaker 2: But suddenly the counting goes just you just changed the counting,
[3:02:44] Speaker 2: and it seems like there's no good reason for that
[3:02:47] Speaker 2: except to you know, I want to be a monotheist,
[3:02:50] Speaker 2: and that's.
[3:02:51] Speaker 13: It, gotcha. I think I see where you're coming from now.
[3:02:54] Speaker 21: So yeah, So no, Catholic dogma doesn't teach that the
[3:02:58] Speaker 21: Trinity is three gods.
[3:03:00] Speaker 17: It teaches that.
[3:03:04] Speaker 21: It's three persons into one in one god. I know
[3:03:10] Speaker 21: there's not and Holy Spirit aren't three gods themselves.
[3:03:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand the I understand the doctrine. I'm just
[3:03:16] Speaker 2: saying that the way that you're counting persons, why don't
[3:03:21] Speaker 2: you continue the same sort of logical you count God's
[3:03:24] Speaker 2: And if you don't know the answer to that question,
[3:03:25] Speaker 2: then you you You definitely know where we're coming from.
[3:03:28] Speaker 2: And there's not much to talk about except maybe Bible stuff.
[3:03:33] Speaker 21: No, I think I know where you all are coming from.
[3:03:34] Speaker 21: And I want to say I have a perfect answer.
[3:03:37] Speaker 6: I don't.
[3:03:38] Speaker 2: Okay, do you do you think that the Bible supports
[3:03:41] Speaker 2: the doctrine of the Trinity.
[3:03:46] Speaker 21: I don't think it supports the doctrine, but I think
[3:03:48] Speaker 21: there are references to the Trinity within the.
[3:03:50] Speaker 2: Bible references, and that there's.
[3:03:56] Speaker 21: A scriptural text of use hinting towards the t I
[3:04:00] Speaker 21: don't think it's I don't think it verifies that the trinity,
[3:04:04] Speaker 21: but I think there.
[3:04:04] Speaker 2: Are So you think scripture is compatible with like believing
[3:04:09] Speaker 2: that Jesus has created for example? I think so, okay,
[3:04:15] Speaker 2: So then so then who is it sounds like you're saying, Look,
[3:04:21] Speaker 2: I was raised Catholic. I don't really have good reasons
[3:04:23] Speaker 2: for what I believe. I just believe it, and I'm
[3:04:28] Speaker 2: here to show and tell.
[3:04:30] Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, for example, but Catholic documents states that Jesus
[3:04:34] Speaker 4: Christ is co equal with God, that they are, that
[3:04:39] Speaker 4: the Father and the Son are equal with one another.
[3:04:41] Speaker 4: But when we open up the Bible we see a
[3:04:44] Speaker 4: very different story where Jesus is actually subservient to God
[3:04:48] Speaker 4: and God is the head of Jesus Christ.
[3:04:56] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[3:04:57] Speaker 21: Well, we're sorry. I'm if you're asking a question. I
[3:05:00] Speaker 21: probably didn't quite catch it.
[3:05:02] Speaker 4: Oh I'm wondering why why accept the Catholic dogma if
[3:05:07] Speaker 4: it does in fact contradict what is actually written in
[3:05:10] Speaker 4: the New Testament.
[3:05:16] Speaker 13: I think again, it all ties back to faith.
[3:05:18] Speaker 2: Really, I mean, so, why are you up here? I mean,
[3:05:21] Speaker 2: I like you. You seem very honest and chill, But
[3:05:24] Speaker 2: why are you up here?
[3:05:26] Speaker 13: I don't know. I mean I've talked to Justin before.
[3:05:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, we've talked a few times.
[3:05:32] Speaker 6: Yeah, we have.
[3:05:33] Speaker 21: So it's always fun to come up here just chat again,
[3:05:35] Speaker 21: just kind of see every different perspectives about everything.
[3:05:39] Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, fair enough, But it seems like you
[3:05:41] Speaker 2: almost agree with us. You're like ninety percent there.
[3:05:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, you might not quite be ready to debate this topic.
[3:05:47] Speaker 21: Oh no, I definitely I'm not ready to debate any
[3:05:49] Speaker 21: topic for that matter. I know Justin's much more knowledgeable
[3:05:52] Speaker 21: on this than I am. And he's in your I
[3:05:55] Speaker 21: know you're not Christian or anything, so by by all means,
[3:06:00] Speaker 21: I know I'd lose in the argument against you regarding this.
[3:06:02] Speaker 21: I think just bringing faith into it, I think it's
[3:06:05] Speaker 21: a more fair argument on my from my standpoint at least.
[3:06:10] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what if I said that I have
[3:06:13] Speaker 1: faith in the life granting Unicorn. Would that be a
[3:06:18] Speaker 1: valuable argument? Yeah, I mean that's something you believe, you believe, right,
[3:06:24] Speaker 1: But we're right now we're trying to query what is
[3:06:27] Speaker 1: the ultimate truth, not necessarily what somebody believes, right. So
[3:06:31] Speaker 1: like if you say I believe that yahweh gave life
[3:06:34] Speaker 1: to everybody, and I said I believe the life granting
[3:06:37] Speaker 1: unicorn gave life to everybody, and both of us were
[3:06:40] Speaker 1: just resting on faith, how could somebody determine which one
[3:06:43] Speaker 1: of us was correct.
[3:06:47] Speaker 13: I think it's your point. Okay, that's fair.
[3:06:49] Speaker 2: Look, you actually kind of remind look when I was,
[3:06:55] Speaker 2: when I was a Christian apologist, I was given objections
[3:06:59] Speaker 2: I could respond to, and I realized they were very
[3:07:02] Speaker 2: good objections, but I couldn't find myself disbelieving. I kept
[3:07:05] Speaker 2: on hitting a wall. I could not figure out how to.
[3:07:09] Speaker 2: I'm like, I get it, it doesn't make sense. I
[3:07:13] Speaker 2: just I still believe it. I don't know why. It
[3:07:16] Speaker 2: sounds like that's where you're at. You're just hitting a
[3:07:18] Speaker 2: wall and you don't you kind of agree with all
[3:07:21] Speaker 2: the problems and you just can't stop believing that that
[3:07:26] Speaker 2: happened to me.
[3:07:27] Speaker 21: It's not necessarily that, Like, I because I'm only twenty eight,
[3:07:32] Speaker 21: I started really following my practice and faith like when
[3:07:36] Speaker 21: I was probably.
[3:07:39] Speaker 17: I want to say, probably four years ago.
[3:07:41] Speaker 21: So I because I mean, as younger kids, we never
[3:07:43] Speaker 21: really fully appreciated church. I don't think I was. This
[3:07:46] Speaker 21: is one of the things I said to Justin. And
[3:07:49] Speaker 21: we never really paid attention to church. I think we
[3:07:51] Speaker 21: were always bored out of our minds for that one
[3:07:53] Speaker 21: hour growing up. So I think now it's like I'm
[3:07:56] Speaker 21: just finally starting to learn everything about my faith and
[3:07:59] Speaker 21: my religion.
[3:08:00] Speaker 2: But that's I mean, you can learn a lot about
[3:08:03] Speaker 2: you know, fantasy, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, right.
[3:08:06] Speaker 2: The point is that learning a lot about Catholicism is
[3:08:09] Speaker 2: different than learning about why it's true.
[3:08:12] Speaker 21: Oh no, I know, I can I understand, Like, I
[3:08:14] Speaker 21: think there's different truths that people might have. And if
[3:08:20] Speaker 21: I told it's like I said earlier one of my
[3:08:22] Speaker 21: debates a few months ago, I'm going to believe it
[3:08:24] Speaker 21: until the day it is revealed. If it's not true,
[3:08:27] Speaker 21: then then it wasn't true.
[3:08:29] Speaker 5: If it's true, how about this.
[3:08:31] Speaker 2: Do you think that to have faith in something you
[3:08:34] Speaker 2: have to know or rather, if you believe in something
[3:08:38] Speaker 2: to be true, you have to understand the concepts that
[3:08:42] Speaker 2: build that sittance with the term like if I believe
[3:08:45] Speaker 2: that it's raining outside, I have to understand what raining
[3:08:48] Speaker 2: is and outside is to believe it. Right, Okay, So
[3:08:52] Speaker 2: whatever you have faith in you believe in, you have
[3:08:54] Speaker 2: to understand the meaning of those words.
[3:08:56] Speaker 4: Okay.
[3:08:57] Speaker 2: The Catholic Church, there's like meaningless gibberish all over the place.
[3:09:02] Speaker 2: A good example is that they think that Eupharus is
[3:09:05] Speaker 2: literally Jesus, Like what does that mean? Do you know
[3:09:08] Speaker 2: what that means?
[3:09:10] Speaker 21: Yes, and that's I think that's one of those other
[3:09:13] Speaker 21: mysteries that ties in for communion.
[3:09:17] Speaker 2: But what does it mean to say Jesus is the
[3:09:21] Speaker 2: little piece of bread?
[3:09:22] Speaker 21: It's not really so that during the concentration of the
[3:09:28] Speaker 21: bread and wine, we as Catholics believe that Jesus is
[3:09:33] Speaker 21: fully present in the Eucharist.
[3:09:35] Speaker 2: Mean, what does it mean to say Jesus is fully
[3:09:38] Speaker 2: present in the Eucharist? What does that mean?
[3:09:40] Speaker 13: Like that is his body and blood?
[3:09:42] Speaker 2: What does that mean to say that the Eucharist is
[3:09:44] Speaker 2: his body in blood.
[3:09:47] Speaker 13: In the literal sense, it's his body in blood.
[3:09:51] Speaker 2: What does it mean to say it's literally? It's like
[3:09:53] Speaker 2: me saying, guess what my desk is literally a car? Okay,
[3:09:57] Speaker 2: what does that mean?
[3:10:03] Speaker 13: As far as the deeper meaning, I don't know.
[3:10:06] Speaker 2: Deeper, No, I'm asking for any kind of meaning right, deeper, shallow,
[3:10:10] Speaker 2: any what does it mean? It's like saying that my
[3:10:14] Speaker 2: pencil is a planet, right, Like, it doesn't make any
[3:10:18] Speaker 2: What does that even mean? I can't even say that
[3:10:20] Speaker 2: that's false because I don't know what it even means.
[3:10:23] Speaker 2: Because they want to say that it's a special type
[3:10:26] Speaker 2: of relationship between the Eucharist and Jesus such that you
[3:10:29] Speaker 2: can say that they're one, they're the same, But what
[3:10:31] Speaker 2: is that? Even that sameeness is like nonsense? Right, because
[3:10:35] Speaker 2: one literally can mold and the other one is a
[3:10:38] Speaker 2: temporal outside of time in space.
[3:10:41] Speaker 13: Right, I get where you're coming from.
[3:10:45] Speaker 2: Okay, so you to how could you have faith in
[3:10:49] Speaker 2: something that you don't even understand what it means?
[3:10:54] Speaker 5: Hm.
[3:10:56] Speaker 13: I could say experience.
[3:10:57] Speaker 21: I know it's not a good enough answer and it's
[3:10:59] Speaker 21: a very cliche answer, but I think experience from from prayer,
[3:11:06] Speaker 21: from this other other things alone.
[3:11:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, personally your.
[3:11:15] Speaker 2: Journey, man. I mean, I have nothing else to say.
[3:11:17] Speaker 1: Interesting, awesome, man, it's good to hear from you again.
[3:11:21] Speaker 1: I hope you're doing well, and come back in the
[3:11:24] Speaker 1: future and we'll we'll tackle some more topics.
[3:11:27] Speaker 13: Sounds good.
[3:11:28] Speaker 21: And by the way, great win for Ohio and UT
[3:11:30] Speaker 21: versus UT. Absolutely then almost a great win for Ohio.
[3:11:37] Speaker 21: Bobcats last the last weekend.
[3:11:40] Speaker 1: You can't get them all. You cannot get them all.
[3:11:44] Speaker 1: Thanks as I appreciate it.
[3:11:46] Speaker 4: I guess you know, Danny, when I was, when I
[3:11:49] Speaker 4: was Catholic, and maybe you can understand my struggle here
[3:11:54] Speaker 4: justin I remember learning about transubstantiation and learning about how
[3:11:59] Speaker 4: you know, there's a difference with the accidental properties and
[3:12:01] Speaker 4: the substance. And I understood what accidents were, but I
[3:12:05] Speaker 4: had no I could not understand what the hell it
[3:12:09] Speaker 4: meant for the substance to change, because for me, the
[3:12:12] Speaker 4: way they described the accidental properties, not like that is
[3:12:14] Speaker 4: the substance, Like what I think is made of is
[3:12:16] Speaker 4: the the atoms. To me, the biggest hurdle was those
[3:12:20] Speaker 4: Aristotelian products.
[3:12:22] Speaker 2: Same here. I don't know what they're talking about when
[3:12:24] Speaker 2: they're talking about essences and substances and natures and ussias
[3:12:28] Speaker 2: and type of stass all garbage.
[3:12:32] Speaker 4: Yeah, for me, the essence was always the same as
[3:12:34] Speaker 4: the accidents. It's it's just how I but it's probably
[3:12:37] Speaker 4: my materialism. That's just my my brain right there.
[3:12:41] Speaker 1: The logic got in the way of your faith. That's
[3:12:43] Speaker 1: the problem. You're supposed to put your logic aside when
[3:12:47] Speaker 1: you take on the mantle of faith. I'm going to
[3:12:49] Speaker 1: read just a couple of super chats. We're gonna get
[3:12:50] Speaker 1: our last guest in here while I'm doing that. If
[3:12:53] Speaker 1: you haven't followed Danny on TikTok and YouTube yet, I
[3:12:56] Speaker 1: don't know what are you doing? What are you doing
[3:12:58] Speaker 1: in your life right now? Also so if you haven't
[3:13:01] Speaker 1: watched Danny Cook Jordan Peterson on Jubu Lee, what goodness,
[3:13:06] Speaker 1: what have you been doing with the last couple of
[3:13:08] Speaker 1: months of your life? The best that was like the
[3:13:10] Speaker 1: best video clip that they've dropped at twenty twenty five,
[3:13:13] Speaker 1: and it's it's astounding.
[3:13:15] Speaker 4: Well, I'm going to be watching that video of you
[3:13:19] Speaker 4: debating inspiring philosophy later and that's gonna.
[3:13:23] Speaker 2: Be So these are all characters, aren't they.
[3:13:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, they really are. It's funny too that like when
[3:13:30] Speaker 1: you when you look at like these are like the
[3:13:33] Speaker 1: best apologists they have, and when you take them to task,
[3:13:37] Speaker 1: they kind of crumple pretty quickly. It's really weird that
[3:13:39] Speaker 1: they're so weak, right, It's almost like God doesn't have
[3:13:42] Speaker 1: any good soldiers. They say that. When I was in church,
[3:13:45] Speaker 1: they would say that God doesn't send the equipped, he
[3:13:48] Speaker 1: equips the scent, which is nonsense. The people that he
[3:13:52] Speaker 1: sends have no idea what they're doing. They're useless.
[3:13:56] Speaker 2: You know, there are very intelligent Christian philosopher but when
[3:14:00] Speaker 2: you when they give their views, they're like extremely heretical, right,
[3:14:04] Speaker 2: They're like, you know, like a lot of the Catholic
[3:14:08] Speaker 2: philosophers that are in departments in North America believe in
[3:14:11] Speaker 2: all sorts of weird stuff that the Gothic Church is condemned.
[3:14:15] Speaker 4: So oh yeah, you know Raymond Brown prime example of
[3:14:19] Speaker 4: a Catholic scholar who his scholarship definitely does not align
[3:14:23] Speaker 4: with like the with Catholic document.
[3:14:25] Speaker 1: John J. Collins, Joseph Fitzmier, most of the great academics
[3:14:29] Speaker 1: and Catholicism don't believe in the true tenants of Catholicism.
[3:14:34] Speaker 1: In fact, I had a buddy who went to a
[3:14:36] Speaker 1: Catholic church and he was kind of deconstructing when we
[3:14:38] Speaker 1: were like the summer we graduated high school, and we
[3:14:41] Speaker 1: were talking about some of the weird doctrines, and so
[3:14:43] Speaker 1: he goes, justin, I went to my priest and I
[3:14:46] Speaker 1: asked him about some of these doctrines and he's like,
[3:14:49] Speaker 1: he's he didn't He told me I didn't really have
[3:14:51] Speaker 1: to believe in him. So I said, like, does the
[3:14:53] Speaker 1: Pope believe in all these? And they know even the
[3:14:55] Speaker 1: Pope doesn't believe in every doctor, and like, holy shit,
[3:14:58] Speaker 1: crazy admission. It's true though, really.
[3:15:04] Speaker 4: Just for shiits. I saw some in the comment section
[3:15:06] Speaker 4: using words like yahua and.
[3:15:13] Speaker 1: If you think that Jesus's name is Yehusha or Yahweh
[3:15:18] Speaker 1: should be pronounced yah whoah. First of all, you're in
[3:15:23] Speaker 1: the wrong place. Second of ball, it's going to be
[3:15:24] Speaker 1: a painful time for you shadow, thank you for our
[3:15:27] Speaker 1: supertest says no contemporary record exists. Earliest accounts are decades later.
[3:15:31] Speaker 1: In theological miracles and resurrection lack independent proofs. Myth often
[3:15:36] Speaker 1: gets historic historicized. Jesus could possibly a mythical figure. I
[3:15:42] Speaker 1: think like most figures from history that have mythological, uh,
[3:15:49] Speaker 1: mythological stories about them, like they were originally real people.
[3:15:53] Speaker 1: It's just that what we know about them has been mythologized.
[3:15:56] Speaker 1: Like even Alexander the Great, there's all kinds of mythology
[3:15:59] Speaker 1: about stuff that he clearly didn't do. The same thing
[3:16:02] Speaker 1: with Vespasian. Vespasian performed miracles, which he clearly didn't do.
[3:16:08] Speaker 1: Simon uh Simon Barkokva apparently could do miracles and allowed
[3:16:13] Speaker 1: his disciples to do miracles. They would physically pull trees
[3:16:17] Speaker 1: out of the ground with their bare hands, you know,
[3:16:20] Speaker 1: as a sign of their strength from God. It was just,
[3:16:22] Speaker 1: you know, what.
[3:16:23] Speaker 4: About what's what's your opinion on Arthur.
[3:16:26] Speaker 1: Real or I don't I actually know, I don't know.
[3:16:30] Speaker 1: I like with the whole that whole time period was
[3:16:33] Speaker 1: so full of mythological tales. It's hard to know what's true.
[3:16:37] Speaker 1: So I don't really know.
[3:16:39] Speaker 4: For anyone wondering, this is just your ten cent word
[3:16:42] Speaker 4: for the day. The process of going from myth to
[3:16:45] Speaker 4: history is called you hemmerism.
[3:16:47] Speaker 1: Oh shit, it's good. We've got one last guests to
[3:16:53] Speaker 1: get in. Here is Sarah Gilchris. Thank you for the
[3:16:55] Speaker 1: twenty hours over cash app. I super super appreciate that.
[3:16:59] Speaker 1: And also doctor Joe with the clarification. Thank you so much.
[3:17:02] Speaker 1: Doctor Joe with the clarification over Venmo says the ID WACO,
[3:17:06] Speaker 1: the ID, the ego, and the super ego are ancient
[3:17:10] Speaker 1: theories of freud and legacy status not considered valid. I'm
[3:17:14] Speaker 1: glad the actual professional in psychology could tell me that.
[3:17:18] Speaker 1: I I recognize them as as like psychological words, but
[3:17:22] Speaker 1: I couldn't put them into uh something intelligible. Thank you
[3:17:26] Speaker 1: for that, Doctor Joe. We're gonna get ld in here.
[3:17:29] Speaker 1: Welcome man, ld.
[3:17:33] Speaker 4: Ld.
[3:17:35] Speaker 1: Wow, your connection's got to be really bad when even
[3:17:38] Speaker 1: TikTok won't let you up. All right, we'll try Scotty instead.
[3:17:45] Speaker 1: See if Scotty actually knows I have it. I'm good
[3:17:48] Speaker 1: authority that Scotty doesn't know how you doing, Scotty, Scotty, Sorry,
[3:18:00] Speaker 1: I'm good I didn't mean to come up. Don't worries
[3:18:03] Speaker 1: that got Javin. Well, we're gonna get a last guest here.
[3:18:09] Speaker 1: Nobody's got to get it right. Did anyone get that?
[3:18:13] Speaker 20: Yo?
[3:18:13] Speaker 4: What's up?
[3:18:13] Speaker 3: Bro?
[3:18:14] Speaker 20: Just one thing for you. Sorry, I'm new to your live.
[3:18:19] Speaker 20: I'm just a quick question for you.
[3:18:22] Speaker 1: Are you gonna answer the question on whether or not
[3:18:23] Speaker 1: you're a Christian you believe in trinity?
[3:18:25] Speaker 7: First?
[3:18:26] Speaker 20: No, No, I'm not a Christian. I'm a Muslim. We
[3:18:28] Speaker 20: don't believe in the Trinity. So I completely agree with
[3:18:30] Speaker 20: your prompt.
[3:18:31] Speaker 1: Just okay, and no one cares about your pedophile god. Okay.
[3:18:34] Speaker 1: So I think that's all of the guests for tonight. Friends,
[3:18:38] Speaker 1: I can't stay up late. I can't do like a
[3:18:39] Speaker 1: midnight one o'clock live tonight. But thank you so much
[3:18:44] Speaker 1: for Beaner. I'm gonna read what's left of our super chats.
[3:18:47] Speaker 1: I don't think we've got too many left that didn't
[3:18:49] Speaker 1: get read, but I'm going to go through the super
[3:18:50] Speaker 1: chats guys. Makes Oh, actually there's a bunch I didn't
[3:18:54] Speaker 1: read yet. I never mind, I lied. I got a
[3:18:56] Speaker 1: bunch of super chats left. Guys, make sure that if
[3:18:59] Speaker 1: you're if you have not followed Danny and have not
[3:19:02] Speaker 1: followed Dalton Bubble Guy yet, please do both good friends
[3:19:04] Speaker 1: of mine, both Making Content and Danny. I have been
[3:19:08] Speaker 1: seeing you live recently. You're going live any time soon?
[3:19:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, I might go live this weekend. But there you
[3:19:16] Speaker 2: know some I'm okay, I'm doing well, but you know,
[3:19:20] Speaker 2: there's some work because in the Peterson stuff made me
[3:19:23] Speaker 2: way more public, and now that has affected work in
[3:19:29] Speaker 2: a way where I'm less online. And there are other
[3:19:33] Speaker 2: reasons as well. Right, God, let's just point and you
[3:19:36] Speaker 2: know what I do. Everybody knows, and so now things
[3:19:39] Speaker 2: are different.
[3:19:40] Speaker 1: I totally get that. Yep. I've seen this play out before.
[3:19:44] Speaker 1: It was one of one of the motivations behind me
[3:19:48] Speaker 1: switching to doing this full time. People started to send
[3:19:51] Speaker 1: letters to like literally people sent letters to the president
[3:19:54] Speaker 1: of my company trying to get me fired. Like people
[3:19:56] Speaker 1: are insane out here. It's I got death threats, Like
[3:20:01] Speaker 1: it's weird that, Like all you gotta do is disprove
[3:20:04] Speaker 1: people's religion and all of a sudden to become violent.
[3:20:08] Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone realized that they saw it
[3:20:11] Speaker 2: would be. They were doxing me in the chat today yes,
[3:20:18] Speaker 2: fucking I thought it would be better to not say
[3:20:22] Speaker 2: anything because people don't you know, sometimes when you when
[3:20:24] Speaker 2: someone intends to dox you, by saying stop doxing me,
[3:20:28] Speaker 2: it brings more attention to it.
[3:20:29] Speaker 1: So I didn't say anything, right, Yeah, I agree, But.
[3:20:33] Speaker 2: Yeah there were people in chat putting my my stuff
[3:20:38] Speaker 2: guy shows.
[3:20:39] Speaker 4: It just shows very nice. I mean, if they're that
[3:20:42] Speaker 4: threatened by you that they have to do that, you're
[3:20:45] Speaker 4: doing something right, that's true.
[3:20:48] Speaker 2: Well, well, anyways, I appreciate you having me on, Danny.
[3:20:51] Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I'm going to read through the
[3:20:53] Speaker 1: super Chats. You friends are welcome to hang out in
[3:20:55] Speaker 1: interact with the super Chats if you want. If you've
[3:20:57] Speaker 1: got things to do, by all means, go get your
[3:20:59] Speaker 1: thing done. Thank you so much for being here, and Danny,
[3:21:03] Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine somebody better to cook on the Trinity with.
[3:21:09] Speaker 1: This is such a fun topic and I don't think
[3:21:11] Speaker 1: I've done it in probably a year, you know.
[3:21:13] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was about to say the same thing, because
[3:21:16] Speaker 2: you know, I used to think that the Trinity was
[3:21:19] Speaker 2: the only way to read the Bible. And then I
[3:21:21] Speaker 2: did a little bit of at a friend, a Unitarian
[3:21:24] Speaker 2: friend that literally pointed out four or five verses, and
[3:21:26] Speaker 2: I realized it's not obvious at all. In fact, the
[3:21:30] Speaker 2: Unitarian position is actually really strong.
[3:21:33] Speaker 1: Actually I agree. Yeah, you have you talked to metaphysics mic.
[3:21:37] Speaker 2: On this, Yes, I have, and what And I'm realizing that,
[3:21:41] Speaker 2: like if you have family members like for me, I'm
[3:21:44] Speaker 2: very philosophically, mine did not, very like I don't know
[3:21:46] Speaker 2: a lot about the text and Greek or anything like that.
[3:21:49] Speaker 2: But I'm noticing that there's a whole group of people
[3:21:52] Speaker 2: that are more persuaded or understand better when you give
[3:21:57] Speaker 2: a biblical objection over a philosophical one. And so learning
[3:22:01] Speaker 2: from you you two, right, is it's like helped me
[3:22:05] Speaker 2: rite like in how I talk with my family, because
[3:22:07] Speaker 2: my family doesn't do all the philosophy mumbo jumbo stuff, right,
[3:22:11] Speaker 2: But when you read some of these verses, then they
[3:22:14] Speaker 2: have to pause, right, because that's how they understand that
[3:22:18] Speaker 2: that's their turf, not mine. So it's a lot easier
[3:22:21] Speaker 2: to talk it. So I really do appreciate you too.
[3:22:24] Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of Christians aren't really the reason they believe.
[3:22:28] Speaker 4: Despite what we've had come up tonight, a lot of
[3:22:31] Speaker 4: Christians do not believe in the training because it's logical.
[3:22:35] Speaker 4: They only believe in the training because they feel like
[3:22:36] Speaker 4: they're bound to by their text and by their religion.
[3:22:41] Speaker 4: If they feel like they have to be a you
[3:22:44] Speaker 4: know where to be a Christian. So ultimately it's the
[3:22:47] Speaker 4: Bible that you had to sort of delve into. But
[3:22:50] Speaker 4: the philosophy is so good, Like the way you don't
[3:22:52] Speaker 4: know the Greek, I you would at the beginning of
[3:22:55] Speaker 4: this live, I was like, I have no idea what
[3:22:56] Speaker 4: the hell Danny's talking about? So I'm glad you were
[3:23:00] Speaker 4: here for that.
[3:23:01] Speaker 2: Oh you had no idea. Oh when I when I
[3:23:03] Speaker 2: was talking about the when was this today?
[3:23:06] Speaker 3: Oh?
[3:23:07] Speaker 4: This was just at the very beginning. I don't know
[3:23:09] Speaker 4: jack spot about any like being of a lot. Oh,
[3:23:12] Speaker 4: I won't say that.
[3:23:13] Speaker 2: I just don't know.
[3:23:14] Speaker 4: I don't know the technical terms. So the way you
[3:23:17] Speaker 4: hear me speak Greek is the way I hear you
[3:23:19] Speaker 4: with you with the philosophy.
[3:23:21] Speaker 2: Well, the thing is is that what's happened is that
[3:23:23] Speaker 2: they created a language game, and that get if you
[3:23:28] Speaker 2: get rid of their language game is actually very simple.
[3:23:31] Speaker 2: What makes it difficult is actually them not philosophy, right,
[3:23:35] Speaker 2: they create all these terms you you know, abuse the
[3:23:40] Speaker 2: Greek abuse philosophical methodologies in order to try to feel
[3:23:47] Speaker 2: secure about their doctrine. And it's it's very frustrating because
[3:23:52] Speaker 2: you have to learn that game if you want to
[3:23:55] Speaker 2: participate in the philosophy mumbo jumbo. But the nice thing
[3:23:59] Speaker 2: about the Bible is I feel like, if you know,
[3:24:01] Speaker 2: the Greek is less of a they can't just make
[3:24:03] Speaker 2: stuff up. And philosophy is really easy to make stuff up.
[3:24:07] Speaker 2: And because people you know that are not trained in it,
[3:24:10] Speaker 2: they are like, okay, what are you talking about? You know,
[3:24:11] Speaker 2: like you know, so it's it's not it's.
[3:24:16] Speaker 4: Easier to pretend philosophy. Yeah. Well, my friend Ashley and
[3:24:21] Speaker 4: she she she's a fan of yours. She said that
[3:24:24] Speaker 4: what's really great about Danny is that, unlike the phil grows,
[3:24:27] Speaker 4: Danny's actually able to explain what he's talking about, which
[3:24:31] Speaker 4: is what makes you a step above uh, most people
[3:24:34] Speaker 4: on the steps talking about the philosophy or religion.
[3:24:36] Speaker 2: So good philosopher's hide behind obfuscation, linguistic obfuscation, right, and
[3:24:44] Speaker 2: and and and yeah, prinitarians do it big time. But
[3:24:47] Speaker 2: I have to say, you know, not creathists sometimes do it.
[3:24:51] Speaker 2: Like when they try to find ridiculous things like moral
[3:24:53] Speaker 2: realism and that kind of stuff, right, like I uh,
[3:24:58] Speaker 2: weird stuff right like they you know, they do the
[3:25:00] Speaker 2: same thing. It's that's one frustrating thing about the discipline,
[3:25:04] Speaker 2: and we get a bad rep for it, maybe for
[3:25:07] Speaker 2: good reason, right, And so there's something that people might
[3:25:12] Speaker 2: want to look into that I'm very sympathetic to, called
[3:25:14] Speaker 2: quote ordinary language philosophy.
[3:25:17] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:25:17] Speaker 2: So it's like, you know, maybe are philosophies and kind
[3:25:21] Speaker 2: of starts with how we normally talk, right, not so
[3:25:24] Speaker 2: much in creating these weird theories and then like forcing
[3:25:27] Speaker 2: them down ordinary discourse.
[3:25:31] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:25:31] Speaker 2: So I very much like that approach, but I'll take
[3:25:34] Speaker 2: my lead. Thanks for having me.
[3:25:36] Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Denny. I really appreciate your friend.
[3:25:38] Speaker 5: Hi, guys, w Danny.
[3:25:40] Speaker 1: I agree with Danny, and anyone who's been in my
[3:25:42] Speaker 1: live stream long enough knows that if you want to
[3:25:44] Speaker 1: use normal language, I'll talk philosophy with you all day.
[3:25:48] Speaker 1: But if you start using language that like no one knows,
[3:25:52] Speaker 1: like all this insider jargon, no one cares, We're not
[3:25:55] Speaker 1: here for it. I don't want to bring a dictionary
[3:25:57] Speaker 1: to a discussion and waste all this time looking up
[3:26:00] Speaker 1: a word every time he gets used. If you can't
[3:26:03] Speaker 1: use normal people words to explain your idea, then you
[3:26:06] Speaker 1: don't understand the ideal very well. That's just all there
[3:26:08] Speaker 1: is to it.
[3:26:10] Speaker 4: Aim and brother, justin.
[3:26:12] Speaker 1: Let me grab some superjaz Lyricus says, can you elaborate
[3:26:19] Speaker 1: on chaos predating logos or God?
[3:26:22] Speaker 5: Yes?
[3:26:22] Speaker 1: So, Dalton and I are actually both pretty familiar with
[3:26:25] Speaker 1: this particular argument, which is that there's like a primordial
[3:26:28] Speaker 1: chaos that is alluded to in the Book of Genesis
[3:26:31] Speaker 1: that seems to predate It wasn't creation out of nothing.
[3:26:35] Speaker 1: It seems to predate the creation event itself, and even
[3:26:39] Speaker 1: in the first word better sheet seems to indicate that
[3:26:42] Speaker 1: it's not. In the beginning, there's no definite article there.
[3:26:46] Speaker 1: It seems to indicate that they understood this as when
[3:26:50] Speaker 1: God began to create, and then it talks about what
[3:26:53] Speaker 1: he did with stuff. It doesn't necessarily say that he
[3:26:56] Speaker 1: created things out of nothing.
[3:27:00] Speaker 4: Yeah. So, while the Book of Isaiah makes the claim
[3:27:03] Speaker 4: that God created the darkness, the author is making this
[3:27:06] Speaker 4: claim because he's combatant Zoroastrianism. The Book of Genesis doesn't
[3:27:10] Speaker 4: have that problem. You will not find anywhere in the
[3:27:13] Speaker 4: Book of Genesis where God created the waters or where
[3:27:17] Speaker 4: he created the darkness. They're just simply there. He separates them,
[3:27:21] Speaker 4: he brings order to them, but he never creates them.
[3:27:24] Speaker 4: Because it's kind of like, I mean, this is not
[3:27:26] Speaker 4: just the Israelites. Whether you read the Babylonians or the
[3:27:31] Speaker 4: Egyptians or the Greeks, there's always primordial waters and darkness
[3:27:36] Speaker 4: and chaos that precede the ordering of creation.
[3:27:41] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:27:42] Speaker 1: Indeed, Peter, thank you for the super tyt. Peter says
[3:27:45] Speaker 1: Arius like could have saved you all the Trinity cope.
[3:27:49] Speaker 1: I know, listen, if people had read a little bit
[3:27:53] Speaker 1: of the early Church doctrines that were nontrinitarian, I think
[3:27:57] Speaker 1: we could have done away with all the Trinitarian nonsense.
[3:28:00] Speaker 1: But like my understanding is part of the reason why
[3:28:03] Speaker 1: the Trinity won out. It was partially because Constantine wanted it.
[3:28:07] Speaker 1: If you look at Constantine's letters, like he was upset
[3:28:11] Speaker 1: with people not accepting the doctrine. In fact, he wrote
[3:28:14] Speaker 1: prior to the Council, he wrote at least one letter
[3:28:18] Speaker 1: to Arius trying to talk Arius into it, like he
[3:28:22] Speaker 1: was trying to convince some of it. Right, So I
[3:28:24] Speaker 1: think when the Emperor of your of your you know
[3:28:29] Speaker 1: ethno theology state wants you to believe a particular doctrine,
[3:28:36] Speaker 1: you're likely to be persuaded of the particular doctrine. And
[3:28:39] Speaker 1: so I think the fact that constantine.
[3:28:42] Speaker 4: As I understand it, you correct me. From all it
[3:28:44] Speaker 4: wasn't even just the Trinity. It was only like the
[3:28:47] Speaker 4: relationship between Jesus and the Father, like the Holy Spirit
[3:28:51] Speaker 4: was a matter that was settled at a later council
[3:28:53] Speaker 4: laid leout a sear like that. I don't remember.
[3:28:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, to be to be sure, there wasn't one council
[3:29:00] Speaker 1: that decided this. It was a series of councils, which
[3:29:03] Speaker 1: would lead you to question, like how effective is the
[3:29:06] Speaker 1: Holy Spirit's communication? It sounds pretty shitty, like if you
[3:29:09] Speaker 1: have the multiple councils on these topic, it.
[3:29:11] Speaker 4: Took three hundred years just in the Holy Spirit is
[3:29:14] Speaker 4: he's a little He's got dial up internet.
[3:29:21] Speaker 1: The Holy Spirit is an oven, not a microwave. It
[3:29:24] Speaker 1: needs preheated.
[3:29:25] Speaker 5: You have to give it time to work.
[3:29:27] Speaker 1: That's if you ever have you ever gone to like
[3:29:30] Speaker 1: a charismatic healing service?
[3:29:33] Speaker 4: Oh, I grew up charismatic and a charismatic sort of
[3:29:36] Speaker 4: just yeah, so I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes
[3:29:40] Speaker 4: God needs a couple of a couple of times. And actually,
[3:29:44] Speaker 4: funny story, you know that that that one very stereotypical
[3:29:48] Speaker 4: healing session where oh, it looks like one of your
[3:29:51] Speaker 4: legs is shorter than the other. God had my pastor
[3:29:55] Speaker 4: do that to my dad?
[3:29:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I I had a person that
[3:30:05] Speaker 1: I knew that, and I knew that sometimes they did
[3:30:08] Speaker 1: faith healing services, and they didn't live in my state,
[3:30:12] Speaker 1: but they visited my church ones and I thought they
[3:30:15] Speaker 1: were a decent person, even though I didn't really believe
[3:30:18] Speaker 1: in the faith healing nonsense. I was still a Christian.
[3:30:21] Speaker 1: And then in the middle of the service they did
[3:30:24] Speaker 1: the whole leg lengthening trick. I was like, Fuck, this
[3:30:27] Speaker 1: person's an asshole. I didn't realize that. Now I got
[3:30:30] Speaker 1: to rethink. I didn't realize.
[3:30:34] Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no way they could possibly cognitive dissonance themselves
[3:30:36] Speaker 4: into believing that they're really doing it. They have to
[3:30:39] Speaker 4: know that they're Yeah.
[3:30:42] Speaker 1: It's one thing to believe that God like God's going
[3:30:45] Speaker 1: to do miracles when you pray, and then to just
[3:30:47] Speaker 1: go out and do that. It's another thing to intentionally
[3:30:51] Speaker 1: deceive people by doing the who's got a leg longer
[3:30:54] Speaker 1: than the other leg trick. It's like the the hallmark
[3:30:58] Speaker 1: of fake faith healers.
[3:31:00] Speaker 4: It's you know, I can only I can only imagine,
[3:31:03] Speaker 4: just as a comedy skit somewhere out there, there's a
[3:31:05] Speaker 4: Jesus skit where he's telling one of the disciples, HM,
[3:31:08] Speaker 4: looks like one of your legs is longer than the oh.
[3:31:13] Speaker 1: Man, Jeffrey, thank you for the dollar forty nine. Hear
[3:31:17] Speaker 1: me dollar forty nine, super chat. I appreciate that, friend.
[3:31:21] Speaker 1: And also Dano says, love what you do, binge watching
[3:31:24] Speaker 1: all your content? Well, thank you, dan Oh, I really
[3:31:26] Speaker 1: appreciate that, and uh, binge wash away. The more you
[3:31:30] Speaker 1: like and subscribe and comment on the videos, the more
[3:31:33] Speaker 1: YouTube recommends it to people. So please, by all means, friends,
[3:31:38] Speaker 1: if you, if you enjoy a video, like and comment
[3:31:40] Speaker 1: and share, it really does help the channel a lot.
[3:31:44] Speaker 1: And a who the Leftis says it would appear that
[3:31:46] Speaker 1: goat is really quite nothing, really quite nothing to quote
[3:31:51] Speaker 1: Danny h Danny, I hope you got to hear that, Yes, goat,
[3:31:55] Speaker 1: it's really quite nothing. Best line of that debate, and
[3:31:59] Speaker 1: duh oh good to see it. Doug says, maybe he
[3:32:02] Speaker 1: should mute his microphone and see if we can still
[3:32:04] Speaker 1: hear him with the camera on. Oh, that's an interesting point.
[3:32:08] Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. This is Doug deebug TikTok.
[3:32:14] Speaker 1: He's saying. Uh, he's saying, turn your camera on and
[3:32:18] Speaker 1: mute your microphone and see if it if it echoes.
[3:32:22] Speaker 1: But I think that would only be echo if I talk,
[3:32:24] Speaker 1: not if you talk. But I think it was only
[3:32:26] Speaker 1: echoing when you talked.
[3:32:28] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because I don't think anyone would be on
[3:32:30] Speaker 4: TikTok would be able to hear me if I did that.
[3:32:34] Speaker 1: I think it's the weird glitch. Yeah, go ahead and
[3:32:38] Speaker 1: talk with your microphone muted and see if anyone can
[3:32:40] Speaker 1: hear an echo. I'm curious. There's got to be some
[3:32:43] Speaker 1: sort of weird glitch with TikTok tonight TikTok Studio. Or
[3:32:53] Speaker 1: they updated the app. Yeah you can't hear him? Yeah,
[3:32:59] Speaker 1: no one camerom okay, maybe because they did they updated
[3:33:02] Speaker 1: the app this last time I restarted it. I wonder
[3:33:05] Speaker 1: if they finally fixed the audio problem that prevented the
[3:33:08] Speaker 1: audio routing from having to be forced, or it caused
[3:33:13] Speaker 1: the audio route.
[3:33:14] Speaker 4: Yeah, two bad guys, I was singing for y'all. Couldn't
[3:33:17] Speaker 4: hear it? Oh, well, we'll have to move on.
[3:33:20] Speaker 1: Jay says christ is running the B squared tonight for
[3:33:24] Speaker 1: sure squad? Sorry B Squad? Yes, trust me, Why I
[3:33:29] Speaker 1: tell you. When it comes to these difficult topics like
[3:33:31] Speaker 1: the Trinity, Christ is not sending the a game that's
[3:33:34] Speaker 1: not going to happen for the Trinity ors not listen
[3:33:39] Speaker 1: here here's the advice Christians. If you believe in the Trinity,
[3:33:44] Speaker 1: the only thing you can do is be honest and
[3:33:47] Speaker 1: say it's illogical. And I'm okay believing illogical things, or
[3:33:51] Speaker 1: at least this one illogical thing and move on. But's
[3:33:54] Speaker 1: it just be honest, doctor pieces. This guy's trying to
[3:33:59] Speaker 1: police alive. Here's five bucks to kick to the kick on. Fine, Well,
[3:34:03] Speaker 1: thank you, doctor Pizza. I appreciate that. Yes, I agree.
[3:34:07] Speaker 1: Not a fan of policing live streams. Super Dan's I
[3:34:11] Speaker 1: suspect you're different from the other Dan. Thank you for
[3:34:13] Speaker 1: the nine to ninety nine. Super Jet says, you say
[3:34:15] Speaker 1: Doug won't be defeated by paper, but could he drive
[3:34:18] Speaker 1: out the inhabitants of the plane if they had chariots
[3:34:22] Speaker 1: of paper. Absolutely, unlike God's aversion to iron chariots, Doug
[3:34:27] Speaker 1: is not, in the remotest sense afraid of the paper chariots.
[3:34:33] Speaker 4: Is Doug the rock that yahweh couldn't lift?
[3:34:36] Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yes, Doug is the stone that the builders rejected,
[3:34:40] Speaker 1: but is now the chief cornerstone. Yes, Kurt said, Oh,
[3:34:45] Speaker 1: didn't say anything. Kurt, thank you for sending up five
[3:34:48] Speaker 1: Deconstruction Zone gifted memberships. I appreciate that. Friend, and Chip,
[3:34:52] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the Superjest says, where can
[3:34:54] Speaker 1: we watch the Danny roasting IP video? Sounds amazing? I
[3:34:59] Speaker 1: think it's pre probably called Danny you got it?
[3:35:05] Speaker 4: It's yeah, Oh, where the hell did it go?
[3:35:07] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[3:35:08] Speaker 4: It's a It's literally the first thing. If you put
[3:35:10] Speaker 4: Danny versus Aspiring Philosophy TikTok Danny versus Michael Jones at
[3:35:13] Speaker 4: Inspiring Philosophy on the Trinity.
[3:35:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, just type in TikTok Danny versus Michael Jones Inspiring
[3:35:21] Speaker 1: Philosophy on the Trinity, you'll find it and it is.
[3:35:25] Speaker 1: It's chef's kiss. I gotta be honest. Of my my
[3:35:29] Speaker 1: favorite Trinity videos, this is my favorite. I don't think
[3:35:32] Speaker 1: you're gonna find a better debate a debate video on
[3:35:36] Speaker 1: the Trinity, and you can see at the end of
[3:35:38] Speaker 1: the video where Michael is not only fully given up
[3:35:42] Speaker 1: on the argument, but it's now just annoyed that he
[3:35:44] Speaker 1: has to give up on the argument because he realized
[3:35:47] Speaker 1: that he's been cornered and realizes that classical logic can't
[3:35:51] Speaker 1: be used for the Trinity.
[3:35:53] Speaker 4: When I was much younger, I thought, I thought Michael
[3:35:55] Speaker 4: was really brilliant. But uh, doctor Dann McClellan's video is
[3:36:02] Speaker 4: basically demonstrating that he doesn't know how to source his sources.
[3:36:06] Speaker 4: Aside his sources, I mean, yeah, not well.
[3:36:10] Speaker 1: That was so even even when I was like agnostic,
[3:36:14] Speaker 1: I was still when I found inspiring philosophies videos. And
[3:36:18] Speaker 1: the thing I noticed right off the bat was he
[3:36:21] Speaker 1: was really good about cherry picking quotes from scholars. So
[3:36:24] Speaker 1: a lot of his books or a lot of his
[3:36:26] Speaker 1: videos he would quote from scholars. And I was like, Oh,
[3:36:28] Speaker 1: I fucking I have that book. I read that book, right,
[3:36:31] Speaker 1: But I was like, but that's not really what they believe, Like,
[3:36:33] Speaker 1: that's not the point of the book that they're saying, Like,
[3:36:35] Speaker 1: you've you've taken the quote and you're using it improperly.
[3:36:39] Speaker 1: The author doesn't believe that right. And so even before
[3:36:42] Speaker 1: I was a full on atheist, I was like, Oh,
[3:36:44] Speaker 1: this guy is not honest. He can't be legit with the.
[3:36:47] Speaker 4: So I think he's just hoping that his audience will
[3:36:51] Speaker 4: be like, ooh, quote, this is this is accurate? Like
[3:36:54] Speaker 4: subscribe yep, million percent, yep.
[3:36:58] Speaker 1: Reverend Danger thinking for the Superjet, says us. No more
[3:37:01] Speaker 1: phil Bros, DZ, no more phil Bros. Sorry, Reverend, Sometimes
[3:37:08] Speaker 1: you have to when it comes to the Trinity, you
[3:37:11] Speaker 1: have to do a little bit of logic. And here's
[3:37:13] Speaker 1: the funny part is, typically these type of discussions bring
[3:37:18] Speaker 1: out the philosophy bros. I brought one with me and
[3:37:21] Speaker 1: they ran they couldn't. As you noted, not a single
[3:37:24] Speaker 1: philbro showed up tonight to debate the Trinity because Danny
[3:37:28] Speaker 1: was here. If it was just me, they would have
[3:37:29] Speaker 1: shown up. But what Once they see Danny, they're like, oh, fuck,
[3:37:33] Speaker 1: my word, salad bullshit won't work here. And they just didn't.
[3:37:36] Speaker 1: They didn't request up Forum Galorum. Think you for the
[3:37:40] Speaker 1: super Jest, says in Matthew. When Jesus told the apostles
[3:37:42] Speaker 1: each would judge a tribe of Israel. Judas was still
[3:37:45] Speaker 1: in the number. Which tribe will he judge? This is
[3:37:48] Speaker 1: actually a really good point because you have to assume
[3:37:51] Speaker 1: at this point that Jesus just says something that not true,
[3:37:55] Speaker 1: or or Jesus didn't know he's gonna be betrayed. Both
[3:38:01] Speaker 1: of them are huge problems. That's an interesting point, though,
[3:38:06] Speaker 1: I don't know if I've considered that before. When Jesus
[3:38:08] Speaker 1: does say that he talks about how the twelve disciples
[3:38:11] Speaker 1: to be reigning over the twelve tribes of Israel, but
[3:38:15] Speaker 1: that certainly he had to have known that that wasn't
[3:38:18] Speaker 1: a true statement.
[3:38:20] Speaker 4: That's a good Yeah, that's really good.
[3:38:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to write that down.
[3:38:29] Speaker 4: Yeah. That's another interesting one is that Paul doesn't seem
[3:38:33] Speaker 4: to be aware of Judas is scary it's untimely demise
[3:38:38] Speaker 4: because in one Krientine fifteen he says that he appeared
[3:38:41] Speaker 4: to Peter and then to the twelve. Well, no, it
[3:38:43] Speaker 4: was only eleven, right, yes. Also, Paul doesn't seem to
[3:38:50] Speaker 4: be aware that Mary Magdalen was the first person to
[3:38:52] Speaker 4: see Jesus. But that's another thing.
[3:38:54] Speaker 1: Entirely I know, I fight that battle quite a bit,
[3:38:59] Speaker 1: and how the Book of John is pretty clear that
[3:39:02] Speaker 1: was just Mary Magdalene by herself at first. But that's
[3:39:06] Speaker 1: a that's another dead horse to beat. Jeanie, thank you
[3:39:12] Speaker 1: so much for the superged says, doesn't God referring to
[3:39:15] Speaker 1: himself as Us in Genesis prove that he's not just
[3:39:19] Speaker 1: one entity? So this is the problem you have is
[3:39:22] Speaker 1: you have to assume a there are multiple entities or
[3:39:25] Speaker 1: b there is one entity, and somehow they're multiple, but
[3:39:29] Speaker 1: they're one. And I think the way the Christians are
[3:39:33] Speaker 1: doing it is they're saying the US is a reference
[3:39:36] Speaker 1: to the Trinity, meaning the Father's Son and Holy Spirit.
[3:39:38] Speaker 1: Then they would further flesh this out by doing the
[3:39:41] Speaker 1: nonsensical root of going to Genesis eighteen when Abraham and
[3:39:46] Speaker 1: the two Angels, I'm sorry, when Yahweh and the two
[3:39:49] Speaker 1: angels visit Abraham and Sarah and claim that that's another trinity,
[3:39:53] Speaker 1: and it just kind of gets silly from there.
[3:39:54] Speaker 4: On afterwards, even though it just flat out tells you
[3:39:59] Speaker 4: that their angel. But you know that's another thing entirely.
[3:40:03] Speaker 1: Well, that's the funny thing is they'll say, well, Jesus
[3:40:06] Speaker 1: is one of the angels because Jesus is the angel
[3:40:08] Speaker 1: of Yahweh, but the Holy Spirit's not a angel, Like
[3:40:10] Speaker 1: what are you doing?
[3:40:12] Speaker 4: Yeah? And also I mean, are Yahweh and the Holy
[3:40:14] Speaker 4: Spirit both making physical appearances? It just yeah, it just
[3:40:21] Speaker 4: doesn't make any I did this this dance too. It's
[3:40:24] Speaker 4: pretty growing up in evangelical Christianity, the most popular position
[3:40:28] Speaker 4: is to believe that the three men that appeared are
[3:40:31] Speaker 4: the Trinity.
[3:40:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the only way to look at that
[3:40:35] Speaker 1: chapter is it's Yahweh with two of his angels and
[3:40:37] Speaker 1: that's it. That's the end of it. As soon as
[3:40:41] Speaker 1: you get to a trinity. There's so many questions that
[3:40:43] Speaker 1: go on answered.
[3:40:45] Speaker 4: The incarnation too. I mean, this is a really good
[3:40:48] Speaker 4: point for the alternity idea. The incarnation is kind of
[3:40:51] Speaker 4: unnecessary if Yahweh has a body in physical form. We
[3:40:56] Speaker 4: didn't even really touch on that at all tonight. That
[3:40:59] Speaker 4: throughout the Bible, God is never portrayed as being incorporeal,
[3:41:02] Speaker 4: not once, so the incarnation is is pretty pointless.
[3:41:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the closest you get is Jeremiah twenty
[3:41:10] Speaker 1: three twenty three, where it talks about God being everywhere,
[3:41:13] Speaker 1: and you could make the argument that by Jeremiah's time
[3:41:17] Speaker 1: they envision God as being immaterial, but like, that's the
[3:41:21] Speaker 1: closest you'll get. Everything else in the Old Testament describes
[3:41:24] Speaker 1: God in.
[3:41:25] Speaker 4: A physical man. I'm pretty sure we can find instances
[3:41:28] Speaker 4: of other deities said to have like have expansive knowledge
[3:41:33] Speaker 4: of the world, and it doesn't require them to be incorporeal.
[3:41:35] Speaker 4: And I think the closest even after that would probably
[3:41:38] Speaker 4: be John four twenty four. But Jesus say is that
[3:41:41] Speaker 4: God is spirit. But even then, the first entry conceptualization
[3:41:45] Speaker 4: of spirit is not incorporeal, like spirits are made of
[3:41:49] Speaker 4: finer material, but they're.
[3:41:51] Speaker 1: Not exactly real. Indeed, John Henry, thank you for the
[3:41:55] Speaker 1: super chest, says I may have missed something, But what
[3:41:58] Speaker 1: do you suppose was the original purpose of concocting the
[3:42:02] Speaker 1: idea of the trinity. Seems like some sort of retrofit.
[3:42:06] Speaker 1: I don't know the exact motivation for doing this, other
[3:42:10] Speaker 1: than I think people were already worshiping Jesus as a God,
[3:42:16] Speaker 1: and they the Old Testament was so there's so many
[3:42:20] Speaker 1: passages that clearly say there's only one God that at
[3:42:23] Speaker 1: some point they had to like pretzel and be like,
[3:42:27] Speaker 1: I know it sounds like we're worshiping multiple gods, but
[3:42:29] Speaker 1: actually there's only one God. And then they had to
[3:42:32] Speaker 1: like figure out, how can we have multiple gods but
[3:42:35] Speaker 1: only still say we're worshiping one God. And I think
[3:42:38] Speaker 1: that personally, that's how I think we got to the trinity.
[3:42:41] Speaker 4: I think you're right. I think what you have in Christianity,
[3:42:44] Speaker 4: at least in the Bible, is you have mono litriism.
[3:42:47] Speaker 4: But as Christianity expands without the Roman Empire, it becomes
[3:42:51] Speaker 4: more philosophically inclined. They move away from mono litriism and
[3:42:55] Speaker 4: move into monotheism, and then you have to like they
[3:42:59] Speaker 4: just honest are just trying to deal with the fact
[3:43:01] Speaker 4: that Jesus is divine in the New Testament and trying
[3:43:04] Speaker 4: to hold on to the idea of the one God
[3:43:07] Speaker 4: right right.
[3:43:08] Speaker 1: They're taking like a Greco Roman philosophy to Jesus. And
[3:43:13] Speaker 1: then they're like, fuck, this is a problem with the
[3:43:15] Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible. It's like, how can we mash up the
[3:43:17] Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible with like this Greco Roman philosophical belief on God?
[3:43:23] Speaker 1: And they come up with a trinity to describe it.
[3:43:27] Speaker 1: There have been some books written on like trinities that
[3:43:30] Speaker 1: pre existed the Christian Trinity, but I don't think any
[3:43:32] Speaker 1: of them are one to one compared.
[3:43:35] Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's like isis set in don't know,
[3:43:39] Speaker 4: Horus or something like that, but there are always three
[3:43:42] Speaker 4: distinct beings. It's yeah, you're rights, it's quite unique. I
[3:43:45] Speaker 4: think what we have in Christianity is what happens when
[3:43:48] Speaker 4: you take the Bible. Yeahwayh and sort of mash them
[3:43:52] Speaker 4: together with Aristotle's prime mover and yeah, that's that's the
[3:43:59] Speaker 4: concoction we have now.
[3:44:01] Speaker 1: Indeed, and Zekul says, is it true that Jesus says
[3:44:04] Speaker 1: I am a son of God in the original manuscript?
[3:44:08] Speaker 1: And now I am the son of God? If so,
[3:44:11] Speaker 1: that's the end of the discussion.
[3:44:14] Speaker 4: Well, does he use a definite article?
[3:44:18] Speaker 10: Yeah?
[3:44:19] Speaker 1: I don't know exactly which passage you're referring to, but
[3:44:21] Speaker 1: I think you're probably referencing when Jesus quotes from Psalm
[3:44:24] Speaker 1: eighty two, and I don't know if he uses the
[3:44:27] Speaker 1: definite article or not. That should be in the Gospel
[3:44:30] Speaker 1: of John.
[3:44:31] Speaker 4: Correct Here, let's see Matthew, because it's going to be
[3:44:45] Speaker 4: hard to find him saying I am the son of God.
[3:44:47] Speaker 4: I don't think he ever outright right, well, matth they'll
[3:44:52] Speaker 4: have other people saying, damn that truly you are the
[3:44:55] Speaker 4: son of God. So and at least in that case,
[3:44:57] Speaker 4: like in Matthew fourteen thirty three, it does Let's see. Uh,
[3:45:04] Speaker 4: let's see, it doesn't use I don't see the definite
[3:45:08] Speaker 4: article here, but it might just because of the grammar.
[3:45:13] Speaker 7: Hmm.
[3:45:19] Speaker 1: No, even in John ten when he quotes Palmaty two,
[3:45:22] Speaker 1: he doesn't say that I am the son of God.
[3:45:29] Speaker 1: That's a good question. What does Jesus ever outright say
[3:45:32] Speaker 1: I am the son of God?
[3:45:35] Speaker 4: He always refers to himself as the son of man
[3:45:38] Speaker 4: and the son of man. But uh, this is someone
[3:45:45] Speaker 4: asked a really great question that God is spinning now.
[3:45:51] Speaker 1: I don't think Jesus ever explicitly says that I am
[3:45:54] Speaker 1: the son of God. I guess it's a cool I
[3:45:58] Speaker 1: think we need more information about which past as you're
[3:46:00] Speaker 1: referring to, because I don't know which one you're referring
[3:46:02] Speaker 1: to just yet.
[3:46:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's usually only other people who call him that.
[3:46:06] Speaker 4: I don't see any example I am calling himself losses.
[3:46:10] Speaker 1: Have you considered nah? Ah?
[3:46:12] Speaker 5: You know what?
[3:46:12] Speaker 1: We did consider that during the argument, and I reject
[3:46:16] Speaker 1: out of hand with another nah ah, I am the cheese.
[3:46:20] Speaker 1: Thank you for the supertest, says future topic suggestion Christianity
[3:46:22] Speaker 1: is unoriginal and didn't make the world more moral, or
[3:46:26] Speaker 1: Christian morality is shit. I do like the second way
[3:46:31] Speaker 1: you phrased that Christian morality as shit. I've been tossing
[3:46:34] Speaker 1: around the idea of saying Christians don't have morals or
[3:46:38] Speaker 1: Christians don't have objective morals. I like the first one.
[3:46:41] Speaker 1: Christians don't have morals, and I think I can make
[3:46:43] Speaker 1: a pretty good case for why that is the truth,
[3:46:46] Speaker 1: because they only think they have objective morals. Really they
[3:46:49] Speaker 1: just have subjective morals. Is a morally relative system. If
[3:46:54] Speaker 1: you believe morals just come from God, it's not that
[3:46:56] Speaker 1: they're actually objective. People are saying, Matthew twenty six sixty three.
[3:47:03] Speaker 4: Let me see for the definite article. We'll see Matthew
[3:47:10] Speaker 4: Matthew twenty six what.
[3:47:12] Speaker 1: Twenty six sixty three? Oh true, when he's on trial
[3:47:16] Speaker 1: at the Sanhedron, that's a fair point.
[3:47:19] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, gives the he affirms. He doesn't say directly, yeah,
[3:47:23] Speaker 4: he does affirm, and it does use the definite article.
[3:47:26] Speaker 4: They ask him, are you ho Cristo's ho huios too
[3:47:31] Speaker 4: thu the son o God? Any affirms I am.
[3:47:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, seems that way. Yeah, interesting, interesting, Okay, the plot
[3:47:43] Speaker 1: thickens there you are. Samsa Bark, thank you for the
[3:47:46] Speaker 1: forty nine says, perhaps the Trinity is like three and
[3:47:48] Speaker 1: one oil, which has the triple ability to clean, lubricate,
[3:47:53] Speaker 1: and protect. Jesus cleans, the Spirit protects, and the Father lubricates.
[3:47:58] Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, yeah, how do we determine which one lubricates?
[3:48:03] Speaker 4: You'll have to ask Astra if the Father lubricates.
[3:48:09] Speaker 1: Because I would have thought that Oily josh was the
[3:48:12] Speaker 1: lubrication if I was going to put one in there.
[3:48:15] Speaker 4: Oh remember that's good.
[3:48:17] Speaker 1: All things were made through Jesus, which means Jesus was
[3:48:20] Speaker 1: the lubrication through which he.
[3:48:21] Speaker 4: Was made Oily Joshua. I love that.
[3:48:28] Speaker 6: HC.
[3:48:29] Speaker 1: Thank you for the three hundred and forty nine THHB.
[3:48:32] Speaker 1: Super thanks. I appreciate that. And Handsome Cat says, counting
[3:48:36] Speaker 1: abstracts like God uses counting by identity, while counting the
[3:48:40] Speaker 1: Trinity is using counting by division. Jay Dyer listen, I
[3:48:46] Speaker 1: don't know, I don't watch Jay Dyer, but I've watched
[3:48:49] Speaker 1: like one or two videos by him. I know he's
[3:48:51] Speaker 1: a real philosophical minded individual. If he's suggesting that, like
[3:48:59] Speaker 1: God doesn't have identity, then I don't know what to
[3:49:02] Speaker 1: do for them, Like, that's just it's just now bordering
[3:49:06] Speaker 1: the absurd. Sonic thank you for the super gene says,
[3:49:09] Speaker 1: what does it mean to be divine? Well, it just
[3:49:11] Speaker 1: means that you have divine characteristics. You'd say you have
[3:49:15] Speaker 1: the divine nature, but if you break down the word
[3:49:17] Speaker 1: nature or essence, it just means characteristics. You have the
[3:49:21] Speaker 1: characteristics that would make you divine, but they want to
[3:49:25] Speaker 1: obfuscate that fact by using the word essence when reality,
[3:49:30] Speaker 1: like most of these dumb arguments about what is God,
[3:49:33] Speaker 1: what is divine, you can really just boil it down
[3:49:35] Speaker 1: by asking what about them is divine? And then they'll
[3:49:39] Speaker 1: tell you something silly like the essence or the nature
[3:49:42] Speaker 1: and be okay, well what does nature mean?
[3:49:44] Speaker 6: Right?
[3:49:44] Speaker 1: Just keep asking them like fifth grader questions, and you'll
[3:49:48] Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that not only do they not
[3:49:50] Speaker 1: understand their own arguments, they're just not true.
[3:49:54] Speaker 4: Yeah, honestly, because of the fact that deity and divinity
[3:49:57] Speaker 4: don't really exist. Ultimately it is it is a contract,
[3:50:02] Speaker 4: a construct of society. So what any particular society deems
[3:50:07] Speaker 4: as being divinity. So for the Jews, it would be
[3:50:11] Speaker 4: like longevity of life, power, basically, anything which makes one
[3:50:18] Speaker 4: like God himself.
[3:50:21] Speaker 1: That's a good point because in the in the ancient,
[3:50:23] Speaker 1: in your East, and even in the Greco Roman world,
[3:50:25] Speaker 1: like if you had divine attributes, if you were part divine,
[3:50:30] Speaker 1: part human, it just meant that you took on some
[3:50:33] Speaker 1: of the characteristics of God. You can have superhuman strength,
[3:50:35] Speaker 1: you could live a long time, you might be super
[3:50:37] Speaker 1: super tall. It wasn't it wasn't like a substance. It
[3:50:43] Speaker 1: was a characteristic.
[3:50:44] Speaker 4: Even authority, Yeah, even authority itself could make one divine,
[3:50:48] Speaker 4: like the Caesars.
[3:50:49] Speaker 1: Right, forum, thank you for the super justice. Catholic and
[3:50:53] Speaker 1: Orthodox apologists become upset when Marian virginity is questioned. However,
[3:50:58] Speaker 1: the adel Boy also Kelsis's bit about Panthera. Yeah, okay,
[3:51:03] Speaker 1: so the brothers, when you say adel Boy, the brothers
[3:51:06] Speaker 1: of Jesus, as far as we can tell, are literal siblings.
[3:51:11] Speaker 1: And this wasn't a problem for the Catholic Church. This
[3:51:13] Speaker 1: is a funny part. It is like people want. Like
[3:51:17] Speaker 1: the Protestant apologetic is that, well, brothers could mean anybody,
[3:51:21] Speaker 1: even people that aren't related to you. But that's not
[3:51:24] Speaker 1: really good apologetic. The Catholic's already had a better one,
[3:51:27] Speaker 1: which is that Joseph already had children from a prior
[3:51:30] Speaker 1: marriage who was much older than Mary, and he brought
[3:51:33] Speaker 1: step children into the marriage. With why Jesus had brothers, Right,
[3:51:36] Speaker 1: that's way better argument than well, brothers don't mean brothers.
[3:51:41] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't say step brothers, it doesn't
[3:51:44] Speaker 4: say half brothers, so it really doesn't add to or
[3:51:47] Speaker 4: subtract from the whole debate regarding Mary's virginity and in
[3:51:52] Speaker 4: regards to Panthera. I believe this has something to do
[3:51:55] Speaker 4: with Jesus being an illegitimate child from a Mary in Rome.
[3:52:00] Speaker 4: I think that's just a rumor more than anything. I
[3:52:03] Speaker 4: think if there was a historical Jesus, more than likely
[3:52:06] Speaker 4: Mary and Joseph were just his parents.
[3:52:09] Speaker 1: Yeah, the the rumor that Mary cheated you'll find in
[3:52:13] Speaker 1: the writings of Keelsis and his true doctrines. But I
[3:52:16] Speaker 1: think the Jews mentioned it somewhere. I just I forget where,
[3:52:21] Speaker 1: and I wish I recalled. I went through recently the
[3:52:26] Speaker 1: writings of Julian. Julian didn't bring it up. I'm going
[3:52:29] Speaker 1: through Porphyry right now. I don't know if Porpharry brings
[3:52:31] Speaker 1: it up, but we'll find out. But it seems to
[3:52:34] Speaker 1: be some sort of like commonly held talking point.
[3:52:39] Speaker 4: It makes you wonder how old that talking point is,
[3:52:41] Speaker 4: because at least in the Gospel of John there is
[3:52:43] Speaker 4: this small bit where the where the Jews respond to
[3:52:47] Speaker 4: Jesus saying, hey, at least for not bastards, right, mm hmm.
[3:52:53] Speaker 1: I think it's an old one. I think it's the
[3:52:54] Speaker 1: reason why it's old is because it's original.
[3:52:58] Speaker 6: Man.
[3:52:58] Speaker 4: Yeah, perhaps.
[3:53:01] Speaker 1: Entropy to thank you for the five dollars super thanks.
[3:53:04] Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, Blue Sunshine, thank you for the
[3:53:07] Speaker 1: five hour super chests. Why are you always live when
[3:53:10] Speaker 1: I'm at work, I want to watch hah ha, but
[3:53:13] Speaker 1: for real great content? Well, thank you, Blue Listen. I've
[3:53:17] Speaker 1: been working on a lot of stuff, so I haven't
[3:53:20] Speaker 1: had time to do daytime streams during like the Tuesday
[3:53:24] Speaker 1: Thursday day time slots. I'm hoping to get to that soon.
[3:53:27] Speaker 1: It's just I've got a lot of stuff going on
[3:53:29] Speaker 1: right now, I got a lot of frying pans in
[3:53:31] Speaker 1: the fire. But hopefully here in the near future I'll
[3:53:34] Speaker 1: be able to mix in some daytime streams on the
[3:53:37] Speaker 1: off days like Tuesday, Thursday. I just haven't got there yet.
[3:53:40] Speaker 1: Just hold on. We gotta get through September in a
[3:53:44] Speaker 1: little bit of October, and I think my schedule is
[3:53:46] Speaker 1: going to loosen up a little bit.
[3:53:48] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[3:53:48] Speaker 4: I was actually watching your debate with the KJV only
[3:53:53] Speaker 4: Chad demands to get catched on the Bible. I literally,
[3:53:56] Speaker 4: I mean, as far as anyone was at work was concerned,
[3:53:58] Speaker 4: I just had my headphones on. They just me looking
[3:54:00] Speaker 4: at my phone and me going, oh my god.
[3:54:05] Speaker 1: To be honest, like if I asked you depict in
[3:54:09] Speaker 1: your head what you think a KJV onliest looks and
[3:54:13] Speaker 1: sounds like you would have pictured this person, wouldn't you?
[3:54:17] Speaker 5: Yes?
[3:54:18] Speaker 4: Absolutely, one to one, just.
[3:54:20] Speaker 1: Fit the mold perfectly. You did have kJ V o essence.
[3:54:31] Speaker 1: I've been I really wanted to do a KJVO live stream,
[3:54:35] Speaker 1: but the reality is it's such a fringe belief. I
[3:54:38] Speaker 1: don't think I'd get enough people in here to do it.
[3:54:41] Speaker 4: So do you ever do a Do you ever do
[3:54:43] Speaker 4: a Jesus to not fulfillmentsy prophecy.
[3:54:46] Speaker 1: Live So not only do I do that live stream,
[3:54:49] Speaker 1: that was my original live stream. So my original livestream
[3:54:52] Speaker 1: when I first got on TikTok, was just doing that.
[3:54:55] Speaker 1: That That's all I talked about from morning till night.
[3:54:58] Speaker 1: It was the one topic you would never me up about.
[3:55:01] Speaker 1: And eventually I was like, I got to do more
[3:55:04] Speaker 1: than that. I got to branch out. But yeah, anyone
[3:55:08] Speaker 1: watching on TikTok, you know my old content. Put in
[3:55:11] Speaker 1: one of the comments if you've been to Jesus fulfilled
[3:55:14] Speaker 1: zero Messianic prophecies debate, you can see the ones there.
[3:55:19] Speaker 1: I think that was the talking point that that got me,
[3:55:23] Speaker 1: got me known on TikTok. Initially, Herbie says, your president
[3:55:28] Speaker 1: is in the UK, you can keep them by the
[3:55:31] Speaker 1: way Scotland being romanced by the Windsors and with King
[3:55:35] Speaker 1: Chads and the Prime Minister praising him. Uh, it sickens
[3:55:39] Speaker 1: me and want to blame someone. I get it, man,
[3:55:42] Speaker 1: Like it's I. If you're sick of Trump, trust me,
[3:55:46] Speaker 1: we're fucking sick of them too. But you know what
[3:55:49] Speaker 1: I mean, Hopefully it's just four years. Just four years, friends,
[3:55:55] Speaker 1: Johnny says, you rule well, Thank you, Johnny, I appreciate
[3:55:59] Speaker 1: that you rule. Thank for support in the stream. And
[3:56:02] Speaker 1: Grim says, can you leave Doug to watch over us?
[3:56:05] Speaker 14: A f K?
[3:56:06] Speaker 1: What's FK mean? Anyone know?
[3:56:07] Speaker 6: What is that? A video?
[3:56:10] Speaker 4: Like an online gamer? Huh? Okay, me see, I'll just
[3:56:15] Speaker 4: ask my trustee assistant, what does AFK mean?
[3:56:21] Speaker 1: Away from keyboard?
[3:56:24] Speaker 4: Okay? Whenever you walk? I guess whenever you Yeah, that's right,
[3:56:28] Speaker 4: you leave the stream or whatever?
[3:56:30] Speaker 6: Meaning?
[3:56:31] Speaker 1: Should should I be issuing blessings from Doug when I'm
[3:56:35] Speaker 1: not here?
[3:56:36] Speaker 4: I can the restroom.
[3:56:39] Speaker 1: I could definitely take care of that insert name here
[3:56:42] Speaker 1: says the true trinity is paper, rock, scissors, Doug speed.
[3:56:47] Speaker 1: Doug beats them all. He beats them all.
[3:56:50] Speaker 5: Germs.
[3:56:51] Speaker 4: I feel like if you have to round out your
[3:56:53] Speaker 4: I feel like you get to round out your roster.
[3:56:54] Speaker 4: Now you have to create two other figures to go
[3:56:56] Speaker 4: along with Doug.
[3:56:57] Speaker 1: We do, Actually we don't get to talk about him
[3:57:00] Speaker 1: a whole lot, but we also have Rocky and Pebbles.
[3:57:04] Speaker 1: So we've got Doug, Sharon, Rocky and Pebbles. It's part
[3:57:08] Speaker 1: of the quadrinity. So there's that Germs. Thank you for
[3:57:14] Speaker 1: the super Jet, says, then the sky Wizard became a
[3:57:18] Speaker 1: zombie carpenter to save us from the Magic Apple curse. An,
[3:57:22] Speaker 1: It's funny when you word it like a fifth grader,
[3:57:24] Speaker 1: how silly it sounds like the They just need the
[3:57:28] Speaker 1: fancy words to make it sound not stupid, But when
[3:57:31] Speaker 1: you put it back in normal people words, it's crazy stupid.
[3:57:36] Speaker 1: Steve says, Skyline three way is the real Holy Trinity?
[3:57:39] Speaker 1: Rock hard for Doug couldn't agree more, Steve, Listen, we
[3:57:44] Speaker 1: are in violent agreement, and if you haven't had Skyline Trinity,
[3:57:49] Speaker 1: Doug's disappointed. Okay, Doug's behind me, crying on the shelf
[3:57:52] Speaker 1: right now, and Brett says, salt mate two. God presides
[3:57:57] Speaker 1: in the divine assembly, he renders judgment among the gods. Indeed,
[3:58:01] Speaker 1: this is like the quintessential. There are multiple God's passage,
[3:58:06] Speaker 1: and yes, I may two is certainly gonna be I
[3:58:09] Speaker 1: think Psalm fifty eight references multiple gods too. Is that
[3:58:13] Speaker 1: what I'm thinking? Song fifty eight, you.
[3:58:16] Speaker 4: Know, Sammy too is probably, in my opinion, the craziest
[3:58:20] Speaker 4: Old Testament quote from the mouth of Jesus and all
[3:58:23] Speaker 4: the Gospels, because usually it's Paul who is or the
[3:58:26] Speaker 4: author narrating who is like fudging the Old Testament. But
[3:58:30] Speaker 4: in this case you actually have Jesus quoting the Old
[3:58:31] Speaker 4: Testament and he doesn't seem to know the context and
[3:58:35] Speaker 4: calls it a text from El Tora? Does it make
[3:58:37] Speaker 4: it right?
[3:58:39] Speaker 1: So often Jesus does not know what's in the in
[3:58:41] Speaker 1: the book? Guess some fifty eight says, do you indeed
[3:58:45] Speaker 1: decree what is right? You gods? Do you judge people fairly? This?
[3:58:50] Speaker 1: This is again condemnation for the other gods that are
[3:58:55] Speaker 1: in charge of keeping track of the various nations, like
[3:59:00] Speaker 1: what you'll read in Deuteronomy thirty two, seven and eight
[3:59:03] Speaker 1: and Sirac seventeen seventeen or seven seventeen. I always forget.
[3:59:09] Speaker 4: I believe doctor McClellan's theory on Psalm Maii two is
[3:59:12] Speaker 4: that this is the song which was written at the
[3:59:15] Speaker 4: time when the Israelites are starting to leap behind more
[3:59:19] Speaker 4: of the gods and trying to place Yahweh as being
[3:59:22] Speaker 4: l should I so this is like the text which
[3:59:25] Speaker 4: is all about his promotion and their demotion.
[3:59:28] Speaker 1: I agree. Actually, Space Lord says new phrase unlocked, highly
[3:59:35] Speaker 1: motivated unreasoning. That's a good phrase. It's a really good phrase.
[3:59:42] Speaker 1: And Sime, and thank you for the super chest says hey, Justin,
[3:59:44] Speaker 1: I love your content. Since you, since you are quite
[3:59:47] Speaker 1: intelligent on the Old Testament, I wanted to hear your
[3:59:50] Speaker 1: opinion interpretation on Exodus four twenty four through twenty six.
[3:59:54] Speaker 1: I assume this is the bridegroom of blood passage. Let
[3:59:58] Speaker 1: me double check.
[4:00:00] Speaker 4: I'm telling I'm telling you God Moses had a thing
[4:00:04] Speaker 4: for feet. He really did, you know?
[4:00:06] Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it is a bridegroom. Okay, So here
[4:00:11] Speaker 1: here's my interpretation of the bridegroom of blood. First of all,
[4:00:14] Speaker 1: I don't think it's a negative to be referred to
[4:00:17] Speaker 1: as the bridegroom of blood, but it could be right. So,
[4:00:20] Speaker 1: we do have some evidence that in the ancient Midian
[4:00:23] Speaker 1: Nite region there were wedding ceremonies that included blood blood
[4:00:29] Speaker 1: sharing that would combine you as a bridegroom and a
[4:00:36] Speaker 1: wife of blood like kind of like doing blood brothers.
[4:00:39] Speaker 1: So there's certainly a possibility that sent she's from Midian,
[4:00:43] Speaker 1: that the bridegroom of blood was just a callback two
[4:00:48] Speaker 1: of their wedding ceremony. Now, if if that's not true though,
[4:00:53] Speaker 1: if it's not really true, if this wedding ceremony is
[4:00:56] Speaker 1: on shaky ground, there's really no blood exchanged, its possible
[4:01:00] Speaker 1: that she's just saying, listen, this, this marriage is taking
[4:01:05] Speaker 1: a lot out of me. This is the bloody marriage, right.
[4:01:09] Speaker 1: And I think you could you can see why she
[4:01:11] Speaker 1: would think that, right, because she's Midianite. The reality is
[4:01:15] Speaker 1: some of them probably did practice circumcision, but it wasn't
[4:01:18] Speaker 1: like the Egyptians. The Egyptians all practice partial circumcision as
[4:01:22] Speaker 1: typically as adults.
[4:01:24] Speaker 4: I believe it was only the priest, right.
[4:01:27] Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing is, it seems like it's is
[4:01:30] Speaker 1: anybody with the means. So for example, I've got on
[4:01:34] Speaker 1: my my additional channel. Let me, I don't. I don't
[4:01:38] Speaker 1: talk about this enough. Hold on, I have another channel,
[4:01:42] Speaker 1: and I apologize.
[4:01:48] Speaker 3: Why.
[4:01:50] Speaker 4: Just remember, if you want to stave off they always advances,
[4:01:53] Speaker 4: just leave a little bit of foreskin on the doorposts
[4:01:56] Speaker 4: of your house. It'll give away.
[4:02:00] Speaker 1: I have a channel and I meant to add more
[4:02:03] Speaker 1: stuff to it, and I haven't really got around to it,
[4:02:07] Speaker 1: So I apologize for that. The channel handle is just
[4:02:11] Speaker 1: called the ancient Near East and I've got readings of documents.
[4:02:20] Speaker 1: There we go. I've got readings from documents from the
[4:02:26] Speaker 1: ancient Near East for your learning pleasure. And one of
[4:02:31] Speaker 1: those documents. I've got all kinds of stuff, by the way,
[4:02:34] Speaker 1: I've got rituals. I've got poems from the ancient Earies.
[4:02:38] Speaker 1: I got the Assyrian scapegoat ritual. I've got proverbs and lamentations.
[4:02:44] Speaker 1: I've got magic spells. But also in here, I've got
[4:02:50] Speaker 1: a circum the right of circumcision from Egypt. Where the
[4:02:54] Speaker 1: fuck did it go?
[4:02:56] Speaker 4: I'm boaming the ancient Near East.
[4:03:01] Speaker 1: As called an Egyptian Record of the Rite of Circumcision.
[4:03:05] Speaker 1: As far as we know, it's the only written circumcision
[4:03:09] Speaker 1: documentation we have from ancient Egypt, and it as from
[4:03:14] Speaker 1: well before Abraham twenty three hundred BCE. And it's basically
[4:03:20] Speaker 1: a guy bragging about how he survived his circumcision. But
[4:03:24] Speaker 1: the way he described it would lead you to believe
[4:03:27] Speaker 1: that the circumcision was a privilege and not an expectation.
[4:03:33] Speaker 1: So that's all I would say about that.
[4:03:35] Speaker 4: On this channel, do you read these texts or do
[4:03:38] Speaker 4: you have someone else reading them for you?
[4:03:40] Speaker 1: So I think initially this was before I was doing
[4:03:45] Speaker 1: online streaming, and I was so nervous to read that
[4:03:49] Speaker 1: I just kept fucking it up. And so when I
[4:03:52] Speaker 1: first started, I had like an AI reader read it
[4:03:55] Speaker 1: for me, and then eventually I started reading them for myself.
[4:04:00] Speaker 4: You know, if you really because a lot of those
[4:04:03] Speaker 4: AI readers aren't very good, there's a really good one
[4:04:06] Speaker 4: if you're looking for something very professional. I use it myself.
[4:04:09] Speaker 4: It's called eleven Labs. It's so it's so lifelikely you
[4:04:13] Speaker 4: came until it's.
[4:04:13] Speaker 1: AI well the last I'm now at a point where
[4:04:18] Speaker 1: I'm comfortable I can just read the script myself without
[4:04:21] Speaker 1: screwing it up every five words. So when I get
[4:04:25] Speaker 1: around to adding more of them, I'll just read it myself.
[4:04:29] Speaker 1: But guys, I know you look at me now like
[4:04:32] Speaker 1: I'm online streaming and you think I'm probably articulate. When
[4:04:35] Speaker 1: I first got online, like I was terrified the pressure record,
[4:04:38] Speaker 1: Like I would sit there for minutes be like what
[4:04:41] Speaker 1: am I going to fuck up this time?
[4:04:42] Speaker 4: Right?
[4:04:43] Speaker 1: And so like if you're ever wondering like should I
[4:04:46] Speaker 1: make videos? Should I do live streaming? The reality is
[4:04:50] Speaker 1: when you first start, you're going to be a nervous wreck.
[4:04:53] Speaker 1: You're going to be sweating all over the place. You're
[4:04:55] Speaker 1: going to be like tripping over your own words. It's
[4:04:58] Speaker 1: going to feel like you have four tongues in your mouth.
[4:05:01] Speaker 1: It's just it's a lot of it's it's really hard.
[4:05:04] Speaker 1: But when I first got online, I was like, I
[4:05:05] Speaker 1: just love ain't reading stuff from the ancient Near East.
[4:05:09] Speaker 1: I love it. It's my favorite thing. And so I
[4:05:12] Speaker 1: had a channel where I started doing that, and then
[4:05:15] Speaker 1: I got so busy live streaming that I kind of
[4:05:17] Speaker 1: forgot to keep updating it. So I promise friends that
[4:05:21] Speaker 1: I will, in fact add more readings to this. In fact,
[4:05:24] Speaker 1: I've got.
[4:05:26] Speaker 4: About a.
[4:05:28] Speaker 1: Dozen from this book that I'm getting ready to do.
[4:05:32] Speaker 1: I just haven't done it yet. I've got marriage certificates,
[4:05:37] Speaker 1: divorce certificates, all kinds of fun stuff I'm gonna be
[4:05:40] Speaker 1: putting up there, because, like, if you really want to
[4:05:43] Speaker 1: know what it's like living in the ancient Near East,
[4:05:45] Speaker 1: stop reading books about it and listen to what the
[4:05:48] Speaker 1: people back then actually said that TG says, Chef J
[4:05:57] Speaker 1: what is the actual historical evidence for Saul of Targe says?
[4:06:00] Speaker 1: It seems weak to me. If you know a good video,
[4:06:03] Speaker 1: let me know to save your time. Well, when it
[4:06:06] Speaker 1: comes to historical evidence, like is there a firm evidence
[4:06:10] Speaker 1: that proves Paul was a real person, Like, I don't
[4:06:13] Speaker 1: know if there's like if there's anything you point to
[4:06:16] Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent proof. But the reality is if
[4:06:18] Speaker 1: you read the letters of Paul, like, they don't make
[4:06:21] Speaker 1: sense unless they were written by a guy named Paul
[4:06:24] Speaker 1: who was a traveling preacher to these churches and planted
[4:06:28] Speaker 1: some of these churches. There's way too much inside baseball.
[4:06:32] Speaker 1: He seems to know people that like wouldn't make sense
[4:06:35] Speaker 1: to the audience of one church unless they were well
[4:06:38] Speaker 1: known people that they could they could verify. There's nonsensical
[4:06:42] Speaker 1: shit in there. Like at the end of one letter
[4:06:46] Speaker 1: he talks because he's got in a many whens that's
[4:06:49] Speaker 1: writing for him. But at the end of one letter
[4:06:52] Speaker 1: he does sign it himself, and it says, you know,
[4:06:55] Speaker 1: I Paul signed this myself. Look at what big letters
[4:06:59] Speaker 1: I use, indicating that his vision is dog shit and
[4:07:04] Speaker 1: that like, you know this letters from me because I
[4:07:06] Speaker 1: signed it, and when I sign it, I use these
[4:07:08] Speaker 1: really big letters. Probably because either a he couldn't write,
[4:07:11] Speaker 1: or b he couldn't see very well. I think it's
[4:07:13] Speaker 1: the latter. But none of that's necessary. These are just
[4:07:16] Speaker 1: manufactured letters. Who gives a fuck, Like, why would we
[4:07:20] Speaker 1: add all these personal details into these letters if it
[4:07:25] Speaker 1: was just a fictitious person. It's completely meaningless.
[4:07:30] Speaker 4: I agree. So the individual who writes at least the
[4:07:33] Speaker 4: seven authentic layers of Paul, regardless of who they are,
[4:07:36] Speaker 4: this individual obviously has pharisaic acknowledge because a lot of
[4:07:41] Speaker 4: the things he says correlates two things. You will find
[4:07:44] Speaker 4: the talmud pharisaic judaism and moreover, was it well, what
[4:07:52] Speaker 4: is it? I forgot the other thing I have brain
[4:07:53] Speaker 4: Fardale's to Missy listening to you.
[4:07:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, fair point, though, I mean I think if we're
[4:08:02] Speaker 1: just looking at the evidence, I think the evidence points
[4:08:04] Speaker 1: at a real person.
[4:08:06] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, also I forgot. Yeah, there's a text called
[4:08:08] Speaker 4: First Clement, which personally I date to prior to seventy AD,
[4:08:12] Speaker 4: and it does mention Peter and Paul. So and I
[4:08:18] Speaker 4: have my own arguments for why I place that text
[4:08:20] Speaker 4: so early. It's based on certain content in it. But yeah,
[4:08:23] Speaker 4: I think that's a good evidence for Paul's existence.
[4:08:27] Speaker 1: You know, something people don't point out, even the unauthentic
[4:08:30] Speaker 1: letters in the New Testament, like Second Peter. No one
[4:08:32] Speaker 1: believes that Second Peter was written by Peter. Fuck most people,
[4:08:36] Speaker 1: most scholarsn't even think First Peter was. But even if
[4:08:39] Speaker 1: First Peter was, Second Peter wasn't The reality is First
[4:08:42] Speaker 1: Peter makes a whole charade in chapter three of saying that, Hey,
[4:08:48] Speaker 1: Paul's letters are hard to understand, but treat them like
[4:08:52] Speaker 1: you do the other scriptures. Well, like, even if you
[4:08:55] Speaker 1: don't think Peter wrote that book, like, the reality is
[4:08:59] Speaker 1: that that book was, that letter was circulating, people were
[4:09:03] Speaker 1: reading it, right, What good would that letter do unless
[4:09:07] Speaker 1: people already understood at that time period that Paul was
[4:09:10] Speaker 1: a person who really existed, who wrote letters to the churches.
[4:09:13] Speaker 1: It's such a meaningless statement. If Paul's fiction.
[4:09:17] Speaker 4: Yeah, to be fair, the Paul of Acts fiction, there
[4:09:21] Speaker 4: are a lot of things that are written about Paul
[4:09:24] Speaker 4: in the Book of Acts is not accurate to what
[4:09:26] Speaker 4: Paul himself says. And I think that's another thing. If
[4:09:28] Speaker 4: Paul was fictitious, you think that the author would try
[4:09:31] Speaker 4: to corroborate with what's written in Acts, but they don't.
[4:09:34] Speaker 4: They contradict it.
[4:09:35] Speaker 1: Such a good point. If you read Galatians and the
[4:09:39] Speaker 1: various visitations to Jerusalem, the timing and the number of
[4:09:43] Speaker 1: visitations don't match the Book of Acts. There's some contradictions there.
[4:09:50] Speaker 1: Johannes says, I'm three hundred percent sure Colby does not
[4:09:54] Speaker 1: understand the problem with the trinity. And I'm one hundred
[4:09:57] Speaker 1: percent sure that you're three hundred percent correct because Colby
[4:10:01] Speaker 1: didn't track any of that conversation. He had no idea
[4:10:05] Speaker 1: what was happening. He was a deer in the headlights,
[4:10:08] Speaker 1: just trying to hang on for dear life. And then
[4:10:11] Speaker 1: he kept trying to turn it around, like we don't
[4:10:13] Speaker 1: understand what we're talking about. Like the dude's getting waterboarded,
[4:10:16] Speaker 1: and he's like, if you guys had enough or you
[4:10:18] Speaker 1: done guzzling water. I'm like, motherfucker, your head is under
[4:10:22] Speaker 1: the surface of the water right now. Hank, thank you
[4:10:26] Speaker 1: for the six nineties, says water can speaking of which
[4:10:29] Speaker 1: water can totally take three forms liquid tolt gas, but
[4:10:33] Speaker 1: given a given quantity of water, can't have all three simultaneously.
[4:10:39] Speaker 1: Used God's salesman size. I'm sorry, used god salesman side.
[4:10:44] Speaker 1: I agree that's if you use the water analogy, you
[4:10:49] Speaker 1: go right into modalism and you commit the heresy of modalism,
[4:10:52] Speaker 1: which is why we call him out on it. Doctor Fudge,
[4:10:56] Speaker 1: thank you for the ten dollar supertest, says I joined
[4:10:58] Speaker 1: midfish bowl stuff and I'm just so lost. Lol. This
[4:11:01] Speaker 1: is gonna be a good stream. Yeah, the fish bowl
[4:11:04] Speaker 1: was wild. He didn't want to answer the questions pertaining
[4:11:08] Speaker 1: to the fish bowl, but like he brought it up,
[4:11:10] Speaker 1: so I don't know what we could have done for.
[4:11:12] Speaker 4: Him, right. I remember that because I wanted to bring
[4:11:15] Speaker 4: up to him that he's assuming that God is outside
[4:11:17] Speaker 4: of the fish bowl, which in the scriptures, God seems
[4:11:20] Speaker 4: to be pretty much a part of the universe. He's
[4:11:23] Speaker 4: not outside of it. There's no indication of that, so.
[4:11:26] Speaker 1: We're never told he's outside of it ever. Yeah, bad gamer,
[4:11:31] Speaker 1: thank you for the ten that our super chest says.
[4:11:33] Speaker 1: God is above all logic except the logic I use
[4:11:36] Speaker 1: to try to explain him. It's funny how they try that.
[4:11:40] Speaker 1: I know God is above logic, but let me tell
[4:11:43] Speaker 1: you that God is logical. You just can't understand his logic.
[4:11:49] Speaker 1: It's like they don't hear themselves. The the Blexican, thank
[4:11:57] Speaker 1: you for the super Chest says, God is beyond our
[4:11:59] Speaker 1: own understanding, so let me explain to you exactly how
[4:12:02] Speaker 1: he works. Okay, Kelby, this is yeah, this is the
[4:12:05] Speaker 1: point that they'll say that God is on our understanding.
[4:12:08] Speaker 1: But then they want to tell you what God is. No, no, no,
[4:12:10] Speaker 1: you don't get that anymore. You lost that luxury the
[4:12:12] Speaker 1: minute you admit that God can't be understood. You don't
[4:12:15] Speaker 1: know shit about this thing anymore. And Jennifer says, anything
[4:12:19] Speaker 1: but answer the question. Yep, they won't. They can't, and
[4:12:24] Speaker 1: guts says James five twelve. They just can't do it.
[4:12:31] Speaker 1: But what was James five twelve?
[4:12:33] Speaker 5: Shit, my memory is failing here.
[4:12:36] Speaker 4: Let me take a look see James five twelve.
[4:12:42] Speaker 1: Is let your yet?
[4:12:43] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[4:12:44] Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's good. I don't remember that.
[4:12:49] Speaker 1: That's that's fair, That is fair. That's a very good point,
[4:12:52] Speaker 1: James five twelve. Let your yesbs and your no be No,
[4:12:56] Speaker 1: certainly not the Christian attract Jay, thank you for the supergeste.
[4:13:02] Speaker 1: If we can throw out logic, a non existent God
[4:13:05] Speaker 1: who can create a universe is obviously more powerful than
[4:13:09] Speaker 1: an existent God who can create a universe. So this
[4:13:13] Speaker 1: is a fair point because like the minute we throw
[4:13:17] Speaker 1: out logic, I mean, there's no limit to what we
[4:13:20] Speaker 1: can hypothesize for the universe existing, right like the minute
[4:13:24] Speaker 1: we abandon logic, then it could be anything. It could
[4:13:27] Speaker 1: just be something from nothing. Rachel or Sorry Erica, Rachel,
[4:13:33] Speaker 1: thank you for the budding heart. I appreciate that. But like,
[4:13:37] Speaker 1: if logic is no longer necessary, then you can't complain
[4:13:41] Speaker 1: that atheists believe something came from nothing, because fuck, logic's
[4:13:45] Speaker 1: no longer necessary, and if there ever was nothing, there
[4:13:50] Speaker 1: was no logic to bind it anyways, who cares?
[4:13:55] Speaker 6: Vern?
[4:13:56] Speaker 1: Fern? Sorry, Fern, thank you for the six sixty six
[4:13:58] Speaker 1: hell Nero says, please install an honesty timer five minutes
[4:14:02] Speaker 1: to be honest or out Phil bros excusagists all of
[4:14:07] Speaker 1: them before too many lost viewers. You gotta be honest.
[4:14:11] Speaker 1: This is the fair point, Fern. I did finally, Fern,
[4:14:14] Speaker 1: you'd be happy to know this. I did finally add
[4:14:17] Speaker 1: the Philbro timer. It's here. I got a Philbro timer
[4:14:23] Speaker 1: to match our yapp timer. Where'd it go?
[4:14:27] Speaker 3: There?
[4:14:29] Speaker 1: So now when phil bros get up here, I can time,
[4:14:32] Speaker 1: I can do a countdown on their nonsense and say, listen,
[4:14:36] Speaker 1: you get thirty minutes to do your nonsense. However much
[4:14:42] Speaker 1: of that thirty minutes you want to waste defining words
[4:14:45] Speaker 1: is up to you. But that's all you get, and
[4:14:47] Speaker 1: you get thirty minutes and then we're moving on. You're right,
[4:14:50] Speaker 1: it was long overdue.
[4:14:52] Speaker 4: I feel like another timer that needs to be had
[4:14:54] Speaker 4: is how long will it take for you to admit
[4:14:56] Speaker 4: you're a Christian?
[4:14:58] Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you're right.
[4:15:00] Speaker 6: You're right.
[4:15:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they won't. They hate it. They hate admitting
[4:15:04] Speaker 1: that they're related to this religion in some way. Mcdubbin,
[4:15:08] Speaker 1: thank you for the super chest, says, yeahweigh the most high.
[4:15:12] Speaker 1: So mediocre? I don't know, oh significant other okay mcdubbin,
[4:15:18] Speaker 1: your significant others mediocre? Well, I know, mediocre and big
[4:15:23] Speaker 1: w I super appreciate that. Uh and uh yahweed is
[4:15:28] Speaker 1: the most high. I didn't read it right the first time,
[4:15:31] Speaker 1: and I can agree with you on that. Yahweh not
[4:15:35] Speaker 1: so much yahweed. Yes, I will partake in that with you.
[4:15:40] Speaker 1: Patch grab I know right, Yeah, I don't mind burden
[4:15:44] Speaker 1: some bush patchgrabber says Christians. Why must you analyze everything
[4:15:50] Speaker 1: with your relentless logic? I know I love it when
[4:15:55] Speaker 1: they accuse us of being too logical, Like, okay, well
[4:15:59] Speaker 1: find me something that yeah, right, find me something that
[4:16:02] Speaker 1: doesn't follow the logic, and I'll abandon the laws of logic.
[4:16:05] Speaker 1: But I'll be waiting for a while. I think we're
[4:16:08] Speaker 1: getting close to though. Actually it looks like and I
[4:16:11] Speaker 1: know it's still up in the air. But if retro
[4:16:15] Speaker 1: causality is confirmed, like within quantum physics, if they confirmed
[4:16:19] Speaker 1: that retro causality is one happening fach, that does some
[4:16:24] Speaker 1: things to the laws of logic. I've got some questions.
[4:16:28] Speaker 4: What is that? What that effects predate their causes?
[4:16:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, it's a tough one.
[4:16:36] Speaker 4: Well, if the h block is correct and time doesn't
[4:16:41] Speaker 4: really exist, it's just an illusion.
[4:16:42] Speaker 1: So right, So I thought about that a long time ago.
[4:16:46] Speaker 1: So when I first started thinking about time and space,
[4:16:49] Speaker 1: it would have been two thousand and nine, and I
[4:16:54] Speaker 1: ran into a lot of good articles by people who
[4:16:57] Speaker 1: were convinced that time doesn't really exist, it's an illusion.
[4:17:00] Speaker 1: And I'm still thinking that is the most compelling argument. Like,
[4:17:03] Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not convinced that time itself actually
[4:17:07] Speaker 1: does exist. The problem, the thing that I can't get
[4:17:11] Speaker 1: around at the moment is atomic clocks and the speed
[4:17:15] Speaker 1: of light. I feel like atomic clocks in the speed
[4:17:18] Speaker 1: of light kind of demonstrate that there's some sort of limitation.
[4:17:24] Speaker 1: You can call that limitation part of space time. I
[4:17:28] Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not a physicist, but if it wasn't
[4:17:31] Speaker 1: for that one experiment, I'd be like, yeah, fuck, time
[4:17:33] Speaker 1: doesn't exist.
[4:17:36] Speaker 6: Right.
[4:17:37] Speaker 1: But like some some people like doctor Butz, will say
[4:17:40] Speaker 1: time is just what the clock does.
[4:17:42] Speaker 5: Right.
[4:17:42] Speaker 1: So, like, there are a lot of respective physicists who
[4:17:46] Speaker 1: believe that time doesn't really exist in the transcendental sense
[4:17:50] Speaker 1: the way that we want it to exist. And I
[4:17:52] Speaker 1: can agree to it.
[4:17:53] Speaker 4: It's way about my it's a way about my pay grade.
[4:17:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. And if anyone knows, it's doctor Blitz. He
[4:17:59] Speaker 1: did his PhD dissertation on the fifth dimension, which I
[4:18:04] Speaker 1: can't even comprehend the fourth much less of fifth. Bas says,
[4:18:09] Speaker 1: if only Constantine had found Doug, not liar JC. Yes,
[4:18:13] Speaker 1: if Constantine had found Doug, it wouldn't have been such
[4:18:17] Speaker 1: a violent religion. Unfortunately it was quite violent. One of
[4:18:20] Speaker 1: the one of the first edicts he ever sent out
[4:18:25] Speaker 1: was to murder heretics. Let's see let me see what
[4:18:32] Speaker 1: year did he start? Like three oh seven through through
[4:18:35] Speaker 1: eight three oh six? Okay, he started his reign in
[4:18:41] Speaker 1: three oh six ish. By three twenty five we have
[4:18:46] Speaker 1: we know for a fact he was talking about killing heretics,
[4:18:50] Speaker 1: So that's pretty early.
[4:18:54] Speaker 4: Look, as bad as bad as things are right now,
[4:18:56] Speaker 4: we can be at least grateful that we're not living
[4:18:59] Speaker 4: under a theater. Well not, yeah, at least.
[4:19:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know it's it's rough. Mister Lightning says,
[4:19:10] Speaker 1: Justin had to hold off on drink after false Bible claim. Yeah,
[4:19:15] Speaker 1: there's nothing more like a lie about the Bible that
[4:19:19] Speaker 1: will stop me in my tracks, no matter how good
[4:19:21] Speaker 1: the drink is. By the way, the drink of tonight
[4:19:24] Speaker 1: is eighteen hundred coconut flavor, which I got to be honest,
[4:19:28] Speaker 1: it's a little more syrupy than I like. I hate
[4:19:32] Speaker 1: when they flavor these drinks that they they put so
[4:19:37] Speaker 1: much syrup and flavor in it that it is lower proof.
[4:19:41] Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't know why they do that.
[4:19:42] Speaker 1: I get it because more people buy it, but like,
[4:19:45] Speaker 1: I don't need the super sweet, syrupy flavor. I just
[4:19:48] Speaker 1: like the accent.
[4:19:50] Speaker 4: You know, Oh, this is this is where you and
[4:19:53] Speaker 4: I did for I only want an accent of alcohol
[4:19:56] Speaker 4: on my drink.
[4:19:58] Speaker 1: I get it, I get it.
[4:20:00] Speaker 4: I'm not your father's root beer kind of drinker.
[4:20:02] Speaker 1: Totally get it. Arvin says, how is the omnipresent God
[4:20:06] Speaker 1: sometimes more present? I know, I know. Actually we just
[4:20:10] Speaker 1: did this the other night. I asked somebody if Jesus
[4:20:13] Speaker 1: was omnipresent and they said yes. I couldn't. I couldn't
[4:20:17] Speaker 1: believe it. I don't even remember the whole conversation. I
[4:20:20] Speaker 1: just remembered that one part of it. Booget says, would
[4:20:25] Speaker 1: it be okay to call about the utility of the
[4:20:29] Speaker 1: Trinity as an atheist? Even as a former believer. I
[4:20:33] Speaker 1: don't get to cling to it. I'd rather not have
[4:20:39] Speaker 1: non believers call in and do debates for theists. If
[4:20:43] Speaker 1: you're an atheist, just be an atheist. It's okay. You
[4:20:46] Speaker 1: don't have to.
[4:20:47] Speaker 4: Fight the battles for the Christians.
[4:20:49] Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And mister Lightney says, and you're really quite nothing.
[4:20:54] Speaker 1: Oh you saw the debate with Danny best line of
[4:20:57] Speaker 1: the whole debate. It was amazing. And Jared says, I
[4:21:01] Speaker 1: got the Scott he doesn't know joke, Justin, Well, thank you, Jared.
[4:21:04] Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I know that my references are dated
[4:21:07] Speaker 1: because I'm old, but thank you for at least knowing
[4:21:10] Speaker 1: that one that was a good one. And Doc Plaroma
[4:21:14] Speaker 1: not says Danny gave Peterson the verbal equivalent of a
[4:21:18] Speaker 1: cleaning his house damn room. Uh so, I mean, if
[4:21:25] Speaker 1: you've not seen the debate between Danny and Peterson, like
[4:21:28] Speaker 1: it didn't last very long, you can get through it
[4:21:30] Speaker 1: really quick. It's it's phenomenal. It's just he gets absolutely Yeah.
[4:21:37] Speaker 4: Okay, I think I saw it, but I'm gonna have
[4:21:38] Speaker 4: to give it a rematch now.
[4:21:42] Speaker 1: Danny was the one that embarrassed Jordan Peterson so bad.
[4:21:46] Speaker 1: He hasn't came back to the debate scene like he
[4:21:52] Speaker 1: was the guy that outed him for not being a
[4:21:54] Speaker 1: real Christian. It's pretty crazy, benj g thinking for the
[4:22:00] Speaker 1: nine to ninety nine s. That's hi, Justin. I'm curious
[4:22:03] Speaker 1: why you never seem to debate Jewish believers since you
[4:22:06] Speaker 1: know the Old Testament so well. Well, great question, Benji,
[4:22:09] Speaker 1: and thank you for the super chat. It's because they
[4:22:13] Speaker 1: largely don't give a shit about me. To be sure,
[4:22:19] Speaker 1: they're welcome to call in the show anytime. When I'm
[4:22:22] Speaker 1: discussing a topic that they fit into, they typically don't
[4:22:26] Speaker 1: because Jewish people don't believe I'm going to hell. Like
[4:22:29] Speaker 1: for the most part, they don't think you go to
[4:22:31] Speaker 1: hell just for disbelieving. Not that some of them don't.
[4:22:34] Speaker 1: There are some that do, but typically they don't. Right,
[4:22:36] Speaker 1: So they're not compelled to debate with me. They don't
[4:22:39] Speaker 1: need to. This is not their problem. Number Two, they
[4:22:42] Speaker 1: love the fact that I'm doing counter apologetics. They support
[4:22:46] Speaker 1: what I'm doing. So like most of the rabbis I
[4:22:50] Speaker 1: know like what I'm doing, even though sometimes I rip
[4:22:54] Speaker 1: on their God, but never let I think. It's like
[4:22:58] Speaker 1: the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of situation.
[4:23:04] Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of the rabbis on TikTok A mostly
[4:23:07] Speaker 4: are not going to be like ultra Orthodox. They're going
[4:23:10] Speaker 4: to be like reform or conservative. So they're like a
[4:23:13] Speaker 4: little bit more laid back and cool.
[4:23:17] Speaker 1: Agreed. Agreed. Also, you know, most of the most of
[4:23:21] Speaker 1: the people nowadays that practice Judaism aren't super dogmatic about it.
[4:23:25] Speaker 1: Like even I started taking my modern Hebrew classes on
[4:23:30] Speaker 1: Tuesday nights, and I think there's eight of us in
[4:23:33] Speaker 1: the class, and they're all they're all Jewish. I'm the
[4:23:36] Speaker 1: only non Jewish person in the class. But not a
[4:23:40] Speaker 1: single one of them is dogmatic about it that that
[4:23:42] Speaker 1: they like it. They like being part of the community.
[4:23:46] Speaker 1: They certainly have beliefs. They all believe in God, they
[4:23:48] Speaker 1: believe in the Hebrew Bible, but like none of them
[4:23:52] Speaker 1: are like, you know, Pentecostal Christian about it. They're just
[4:23:56] Speaker 1: they're just normal people. Giant, thank you for the ten dollars.
[4:24:01] Speaker 1: Super chest says if someone surnames traditionally can wait if
[4:24:05] Speaker 1: some surnames traditionally came from your occupation, like smith or blacksmith,
[4:24:11] Speaker 1: baker for cooks, Cooper from a barrel maker, was Dickenson
[4:24:15] Speaker 1: a traditional Catholic priest surname, and I do believe that
[4:24:21] Speaker 1: would be the case. Dick and Son would absolutely be
[4:24:25] Speaker 1: the task of the Catholic.
[4:24:29] Speaker 4: Fuck.
[4:24:31] Speaker 1: That was amazing that that wins the Superchat joke of
[4:24:36] Speaker 1: the night.
[4:24:37] Speaker 4: Just when I was Catholic, I was actually an altar
[4:24:40] Speaker 4: server and I was going to go into the seminary
[4:24:43] Speaker 4: become a priest.
[4:24:48] Speaker 1: I grew up in the Catholic school and we all
[4:24:50] Speaker 1: had to like it was mandatory for the boys in
[4:24:53] Speaker 1: the Catholic school to serve. And at least when you's
[4:24:57] Speaker 1: a Catholic school, there's so many boys that you you
[4:25:00] Speaker 1: don't have to do it very often. But you're not
[4:25:02] Speaker 1: missing much. We'll say that while.
[4:25:05] Speaker 4: You're reading that comment, I'll look for this profile picture
[4:25:07] Speaker 4: of mine from back in the day.
[4:25:08] Speaker 1: Oh, I'd love to see it. Tim says, not the
[4:25:12] Speaker 1: A squad or the A team, the A men. Oh oh,
[4:25:16] Speaker 1: I see what you did there. That was good, And
[4:25:19] Speaker 1: Shadow says forgot I super chatted opinion earlier statement, Well,
[4:25:24] Speaker 1: shout Shadow, we did get to it. We did read it,
[4:25:27] Speaker 1: my friend. And Tyler, thank you for the super justice
[4:25:31] Speaker 1: you had. Sorry, had you been an atheist since childhood,
[4:25:35] Speaker 1: do you think you would have become so scholarly on
[4:25:38] Speaker 1: the Bible? Seems like a boring read to me, No, Tyler,
[4:25:42] Speaker 1: I wouldn't. First of all, it's not boring. Oh my god,
[4:25:44] Speaker 1: this is the picture. This is fantastic, fan fucking tastic picture.
[4:25:52] Speaker 1: I love this.
[4:25:55] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a different life, oh to my old picture.
[4:26:01] Speaker 4: I agree, though, I mean, you're probably the same as
[4:26:03] Speaker 4: me as the reason that we're both like we both
[4:26:05] Speaker 4: love the Bible. So much is because maybe it's a
[4:26:08] Speaker 4: I don't know if it's a sunk cost fallacy or
[4:26:10] Speaker 4: something like that. But I just I do genuinely enjoy
[4:26:14] Speaker 4: talking about it.
[4:26:16] Speaker 6: I do.
[4:26:17] Speaker 1: I think it's enjoyable. Here's what I do know, though,
[4:26:20] Speaker 1: if I never got interested in religion, I probably would
[4:26:24] Speaker 1: have done cosmology. I love space. I love it. I
[4:26:30] Speaker 1: loved her two things I loved as a kid. One
[4:26:32] Speaker 1: was dinosaurs and one was space. And so I would
[4:26:36] Speaker 1: probably do a lot of stuff like that in my
[4:26:38] Speaker 1: adult life. And I probably would have studied more of
[4:26:41] Speaker 1: the sciences. But because I got religious, I studied the
[4:26:44] Speaker 1: religious stuff.
[4:26:45] Speaker 4: Oh it's so accurate, because I wanted to be a
[4:26:49] Speaker 4: palaeontologist and I was a kid, and then I ended
[4:26:54] Speaker 4: up becoming religious, and yeah, probably, and I love Greek
[4:26:58] Speaker 4: mythology in high school, which is you know me too,
[4:27:00] Speaker 4: another thing I made.
[4:27:01] Speaker 1: But yeah, so Dalton and I are actually, yeah, we're
[4:27:06] Speaker 1: separated at birth carnage. Thank you for the nine. My
[4:27:11] Speaker 1: friend says, could you pick my next book? Ooh, I've
[4:27:16] Speaker 1: got a special section on my bookshelf dedicated to biblical studies,
[4:27:20] Speaker 1: and I've got most of what you've recommended. Also when
[4:27:23] Speaker 1: do we get a bookshelf tour. Shit, that's a that's
[4:27:26] Speaker 1: a good question.
[4:27:27] Speaker 4: That is an interesting idea.
[4:27:29] Speaker 1: I I can work on that. I've got four bookshelves
[4:27:32] Speaker 1: first of all, so it's I mean four different rooms
[4:27:37] Speaker 1: with bookshelves. It takes a while to get through them.
[4:27:39] Speaker 1: But what would I recommend for a good read? Huh?
[4:27:48] Speaker 1: I've got so many in biblical studies. I'm trying to
[4:27:51] Speaker 1: think of what would be of interest if it's if
[4:27:54] Speaker 1: it's New Testament or Old Testament. I think that's going
[4:27:57] Speaker 1: to be the question. I'll tell you what book I
[4:28:00] Speaker 1: like that. I think everybody should read. It should be
[4:28:03] Speaker 1: required reading.
[4:28:05] Speaker 4: Hold on, well, he's looking for that, guys. I would
[4:28:10] Speaker 4: suggest a Francesca Stabra Capulu's book God in Anatomy, and
[4:28:16] Speaker 4: even better if you get the e book. I mean
[4:28:18] Speaker 4: that the e book the audiobook, because Francesca, doctor Francisca,
[4:28:22] Speaker 4: reads it and she has a superb voice.
[4:28:29] Speaker 1: Okay, here are two books that I think you'll love.
[4:28:35] Speaker 1: What is called Canaan and Israel in Antiquity by Noel
[4:28:41] Speaker 1: and the other is The Canaanites by Jonathan Tubb, both
[4:28:45] Speaker 1: of them professors. These are really good books. Written for
[4:28:51] Speaker 1: normal human beings that go over the archaeology of the
[4:28:55] Speaker 1: ancient Israelites and kind of help you to understand that
[4:28:58] Speaker 1: this people group is much different than the way the
[4:29:01] Speaker 1: Bible portrays them. The ancient Israelites appear to actually be Canaanites.
[4:29:07] Speaker 1: That's what we know from history. But these two books
[4:29:11] Speaker 1: are not very thick. You can get through them pretty quickly.
[4:29:15] Speaker 1: They're not huge reads. They're widely available if you want
[4:29:19] Speaker 1: to know a little bit about the actual Israelites from history.
[4:29:23] Speaker 1: I think these are really good primers on the topic,
[4:29:26] Speaker 1: and they don't get into theology. They're not doing theology.
[4:29:29] Speaker 1: They're just saying, here's what we have from the archaeological record,
[4:29:33] Speaker 1: and here's kind of how it fits. I think they're
[4:29:36] Speaker 1: really good.
[4:29:37] Speaker 4: A really good intro book that's really accessible, and it's
[4:29:41] Speaker 4: brand new in the market. Doctor Dan McClellan's book The
[4:29:44] Speaker 4: Bible says, so.
[4:29:46] Speaker 1: I haven't done that yet. I need to get it.
[4:29:48] Speaker 1: You need to get it.
[4:29:49] Speaker 4: It's good, it's super digestible.
[4:29:51] Speaker 1: Mister Moon says, thank you for your donation. Well, mister Moon,
[4:29:55] Speaker 1: thank you for your donation. So when he announced the book,
[4:29:58] Speaker 1: I was a little bit jealous because I I already
[4:30:00] Speaker 1: started the book similar to that, probably six or seven
[4:30:04] Speaker 1: years ago, and it's like ninety percent finished. I just
[4:30:08] Speaker 1: didn't do anything with it. And when he did it,
[4:30:11] Speaker 1: I was like, fuck, I should have done it. But
[4:30:13] Speaker 1: like even when.
[4:30:13] Speaker 4: I write the book on prophecies, Yeah.
[4:30:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm working on that right now.
[4:30:19] Speaker 4: I'm titled yet.
[4:30:21] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's called Unfulfilled, like one were titles.
[4:30:26] Speaker 4: I had one similar to that I was gonna do.
[4:30:28] Speaker 3: Uh.
[4:30:28] Speaker 4: I was thinking about doing one about basically the same topic,
[4:30:32] Speaker 4: but not just missing anic prophecies, just basically every single
[4:30:36] Speaker 4: quotation of the Old Testament in the News Testment and
[4:30:38] Speaker 4: how it's usually mis applied and call it misquoting Moses.
[4:30:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's volume two. So Volume one are all
[4:30:47] Speaker 1: the prophecies of Jesus that show up in the Gospels.
[4:30:52] Speaker 1: Volume two are all of the prophecies of Jesus that
[4:30:55] Speaker 1: show up outside of the Gospel. So I'm not addressing
[4:30:57] Speaker 1: every Old Testament quotation, just the ones that are pertaining
[4:31:01] Speaker 1: to the prophecies concerning Jesus. So it's gonna be a
[4:31:06] Speaker 1: lot of fun. I am the cheese. Thank you for
[4:31:10] Speaker 1: the nineteen Nino nineteen ninety nine dollars. Supertest says reply
[4:31:14] Speaker 1: future topic suggestion. It was argument against Christian claims that
[4:31:18] Speaker 1: ten Commandments are teachings of Jesus introduced morals that didn't
[4:31:21] Speaker 1: already exist, debating Christian historical revisionism and implicit bigotry. This
[4:31:27] Speaker 1: is a good point, and this does come up from
[4:31:29] Speaker 1: time to time when we do that. God is not
[4:31:31] Speaker 1: good topic because they'll want to talk about the Ten Commandments.
[4:31:35] Speaker 1: But the reality is those commands exist elsewhere. I can
[4:31:38] Speaker 1: show you in the laws of Lappetish Star, the laws
[4:31:41] Speaker 1: of Hammurabi, the laws of Urnamu, the Middle Assyrian law codes,
[4:31:46] Speaker 1: everything that we find in the Law of Moses that
[4:31:49] Speaker 1: we really like it was already in existence. In fact,
[4:31:52] Speaker 1: I've got it on a spreadsheet. I didn't put it
[4:31:54] Speaker 1: in the cheat sheet yet, but I've got it on
[4:31:57] Speaker 1: a spreadsheet where the Book of Exodus literally copies in
[4:32:03] Speaker 1: the exact order from the law code of Hammurabi. Like
[4:32:06] Speaker 1: it just they're just there's robin shit.
[4:32:10] Speaker 4: One thing I've never actually looked into was are there
[4:32:13] Speaker 4: anything even remotely similar to Sabbath laws outside of ancient Israel?
[4:32:20] Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there is, actually Okay, so I actually just
[4:32:24] Speaker 1: did one hold on, Hold on fuck.
[4:32:28] Speaker 4: I love learning new shit.
[4:32:31] Speaker 1: Okay, so actually I think that was the latest video
[4:32:34] Speaker 1: that I recorded. Yep, let me thank you for the
[4:32:38] Speaker 1: super chat Cheese. The last video I did on the
[4:32:43] Speaker 1: Ancient Earies channel was in fact titled the Babylonian Sabbath.
[4:32:49] Speaker 4: Well, I can't wait to watch it now.
[4:32:52] Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's pretty short and fragmented, so there's not a
[4:32:56] Speaker 1: lot of stuff there to work with. But it seems
[4:32:58] Speaker 1: to definitely tap into the idea that there is a
[4:33:02] Speaker 1: notion in the ancient world where you need some kind
[4:33:05] Speaker 1: of a time period of rest. I haven't I haven't
[4:33:12] Speaker 1: looked at the Akkadian language, so I couldn't tell you,
[4:33:17] Speaker 1: but I do have the Acadian dictionary. If you need it,
[4:33:20] Speaker 1: I can make I think there's a PDF copy of
[4:33:23] Speaker 1: the hard copy I've got I can send to you.
[4:33:26] Speaker 4: Nice.
[4:33:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, people are asking what channel the channel is this
[4:33:29] Speaker 1: called the Ancient Near East. It's at the Ancient Near East.
[4:33:34] Speaker 1: Don't ask me how I got it before everybody else.
[4:33:37] Speaker 1: Nobody took it for some reason, and I'm running with it.
[4:33:41] Speaker 1: I'll be putting more stuff up on there. Geese says
[4:33:46] Speaker 1: a topic Jesus didn't make the world a better place. Actually,
[4:33:50] Speaker 1: I think both Thinker and also Christina Carroll had been
[4:33:57] Speaker 1: running this topic. It's a really good topic. They do
[4:33:59] Speaker 1: a great job with it. Actually, Muzzy fuzz thank you
[4:34:03] Speaker 1: for the super chest, says every time I hear mystery
[4:34:06] Speaker 1: or that's a hard one, or yeah, that's difficult, I
[4:34:09] Speaker 1: want to slam my banana in a car door and
[4:34:13] Speaker 1: let it latch. It just means your logic, evidence or
[4:34:17] Speaker 1: argument has failed. Couldn't agree more. That's exactly what it means.
[4:34:22] Speaker 1: Thank you, Muzzy Fuzzy for supporting And last one from
[4:34:24] Speaker 1: our friend Nick. Thank you so much, Nick for the
[4:34:26] Speaker 1: ten dollar super chest. Says Mormon's interpret Ezekiel thirty seven
[4:34:29] Speaker 1: as the stick of Judah being the Bible and the
[4:34:33] Speaker 1: Stick of Joseph as the Book of Mormon. What do
[4:34:36] Speaker 1: the sticks really mean? Well, I mean, as far as
[4:34:40] Speaker 1: I typically, the sticks are referring to the North and
[4:34:43] Speaker 1: the south. Right, So, because if you go to Ezekiel
[4:34:46] Speaker 1: thirty seven and even Ezekiel thirty six, there's this repeated
[4:34:51] Speaker 1: language where God says He's going to restore the North
[4:34:53] Speaker 1: and the South and make them one kingdom. Again, we
[4:34:58] Speaker 1: find something similar in Zachariah as well. Let me grab this.
[4:35:04] Speaker 4: There's a lot of Hebrew roots people who are really
[4:35:06] Speaker 4: into two House theology, and this is a big talkic
[4:35:09] Speaker 4: point for them.
[4:35:10] Speaker 1: Right right. It says mortal, take a stick and write
[4:35:13] Speaker 1: on it for Judah and the Israelites associated with it.
[4:35:16] Speaker 1: Take another stick right out for the House of Joseph,
[4:35:19] Speaker 1: which is Ephrium. So you've got Ephrium, which is a
[4:35:21] Speaker 1: primary territory of the North, and Judah is a primary
[4:35:25] Speaker 1: territory of the South. So this should be the reuniting
[4:35:28] Speaker 1: of the North and the South. That would be my
[4:35:31] Speaker 1: read of it. But I think that's all of our
[4:35:34] Speaker 1: super chats. Guys, if you're not following Dalton, please make
[4:35:37] Speaker 1: sure you do follow Dalton and with that, who's live
[4:35:41] Speaker 1: right now that we can go raid.
[4:35:42] Speaker 4: And if anyone isn't following justin, I just go ahead
[4:35:47] Speaker 4: and do it. You're here the time. He's it's a
[4:35:53] Speaker 4: growing channel. We need to support him.
[4:35:55] Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. I've I believe Meso's live right
[4:36:01] Speaker 1: now on TikTok and on YouTube. We'll put them on
[4:36:05] Speaker 1: the screen on YouTube. He's live at the deconstruction Junction
[4:36:11] Speaker 1: it's at Deconstruction Junction. You know and love Joel and Mezzo.
[4:36:15] Speaker 1: Let's go over Ray Joel and Mezzo's place. If you
[4:36:18] Speaker 1: are on TikTok, it's Mezzo Underscore WS or Sphere, but
[4:36:25] Speaker 1: look at mezso for for TikTok, you'll find it. Just
[4:36:31] Speaker 1: with the word Mezzo, I know it pops up. If
[4:36:33] Speaker 1: you're watching on YouTube, go to Deconstruction Junction, it'll pop up.
[4:36:37] Speaker 1: And big, big W for everyone being here. Really love
[4:36:41] Speaker 1: and appreciate this community. Thank you so much for all
[4:36:43] Speaker 1: you do. I wouldn't be here without you friends, So
[4:36:47] Speaker 1: thank you for all you do, and we'll see you
[4:36:49] Speaker 1: again in a couple of days.

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