# 2025-09-05 LIVE DEBATE \[God is Not Good\]

An episode of [Deconstruction Zone](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1837730286), 7 Nov 2025, 5 h 24 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67798415/2025_09_05_live_debate_god_is_not_good.mp3

Live debating every theist on the planet. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Get Member Perks: https://www.youtube.com/@Deconstruction_Zone/join https://patreon.com/Deconstruction_Zone --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUPPORT THE STREAM: https://venmo.com/u/JHCOFFEEFUND https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/JHCOFFEEFUND https://cash.app/$JHCOFFEEFUND --------------------------------------------------------------------- SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS: https://www.tiktok.com/@deconstruction.zone https://www.youtube.com/@Deconstruction_Zone https://www.youtube.com/@DZDebates https://www.twitch.tv/deconstructionzone_ https://www.instagram.com/deconstruction_zone/ https://clapperapp.com/Justin_DZ https://x.com/Justin_DZ_ https://discord.com/invite/WmeAmrhkxZ https://linktr.ee/justin_____ Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/deconstruction-zone--6451535/support.

## Transcript

[0:10] Speaker 1: All right, friends, we should be live here in just
[0:13] Speaker 1: a moment. We are live on YouTube. We should be
[0:20] Speaker 1: live on TikTok here momentarily, give me just a moment
[0:24] Speaker 1: to get TikTok set up. Welcome in, friends, should be
[0:28] Speaker 1: a lot of fun. We're doing a fan favorite here tonight.
[0:34] Speaker 1: We all know what happens when this topic comes out.
[0:38] Speaker 1: It's a tough tough topic for some people to deal with.
[0:44] Speaker 1: It is not an easy topic for some phil bros
[0:52] Speaker 1: lose their mind on this topic. They don't know what
[0:54] Speaker 1: to do with it. They don't like it at all.
[0:57] Speaker 1: But we're doing it what it is. Let me double
[1:01] Speaker 1: check the stream real quick, make sure we're live on TikTok.
[1:04] Speaker 1: We should be ready to rock and roll. Greetings, I said,
[1:08] Speaker 1: we've got a friend all the way from Munich. Welcome
[1:11] Speaker 1: in from Munich. All right, I think we're live everywhere. Now,
[1:15] Speaker 1: we're live everywhere where, lives are lives, so we should
[1:19] Speaker 1: be good to go. Let me open up the guest
[1:21] Speaker 1: box on TikTok real quick before I forget there. We
[1:26] Speaker 1: go and our guest box on YouTube should be open already,
[1:31] Speaker 1: and let me grab this A couple of super chaps
[1:33] Speaker 1: while we're waiting for guests to load up, and then
[1:37] Speaker 1: we'll we'll get right into the good stuff. Godwin, great
[1:41] Speaker 1: to see you. Thank you so much for the nineteen
[1:43] Speaker 1: ninety nine My friend Godwin says, go buy a bottle
[1:47] Speaker 1: of cracking gold on me cheers. Thank you for what
[1:51] Speaker 1: you do, best use of a seminary degree ever. Thank
[1:56] Speaker 1: you so much, Guywan, and trust me by I tell you,
[1:58] Speaker 1: I'm at the end of my current bottle of kracking,
[2:02] Speaker 1: so a new bottle is in short order. I'm going
[2:05] Speaker 1: to be having to get a new one up in
[2:07] Speaker 1: here pretty darn quick. I appreciate helping me to keep
[2:12] Speaker 1: my kracking fund supplied, big w and zen Zen, thank
[2:18] Speaker 1: you so much for the nineteen ninety nine dollars. Super
[2:20] Speaker 1: chat Zen says, did you say that you were thinking
[2:22] Speaker 1: about putting a time limit a clock on for phil bros. Yes,
[2:27] Speaker 1: I hope you will keep thinking about that. Please be
[2:29] Speaker 1: merciful and spare us from as much phil philosoph Babbel
[2:34] Speaker 1: as possible. Rock Carford, then I will I prob it.
[2:37] Speaker 1: We're not going to do philosoph philoso Babbel endlessly. We're
[2:41] Speaker 1: not going to do that. But yes, I'm working on that.
[2:43] Speaker 1: I should have a clock integrated for that. Shortly, thank
[2:47] Speaker 1: you for being here, thank you for being a member,
[2:49] Speaker 1: and thank you for supporting and John, thank you for
[2:52] Speaker 1: the nine ninety nine. John says, hey man, do you
[2:53] Speaker 1: have a hand? I'm sorry? Do I have one more time?
[2:58] Speaker 1: Hey man? Do I have to? And in my atheist
[3:01] Speaker 1: card if I'm a Saints fan? No, no, no, that's okay,
[3:05] Speaker 1: that's okay. Also, what do you think about my idea
[3:09] Speaker 1: that church's hand offering plates mid service to guilt people
[3:15] Speaker 1: into pointing up the doll? Yeah, that's true. Actually, I
[3:18] Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why the offering is in
[3:21] Speaker 1: the service, like in the middle of the service, is
[3:23] Speaker 1: specifically to like a light form of coercion to get
[3:32] Speaker 1: them to donate, because it's almost like it's almost like shaming.
[3:40] Speaker 1: It's a form of shaming for them if they don't
[3:44] Speaker 1: give while everyone else is giving, you know what I mean. So,
[3:46] Speaker 1: I mean, it's a really good question. I do believe
[3:48] Speaker 1: that it's true. Team says, what are all the books
[3:52] Speaker 1: you're planning on writing? Well, I've got two in tow
[3:56] Speaker 1: first one i'm working in now it's going to be
[3:58] Speaker 1: the Prophecies as they're laid out in the Gospels, and
[4:01] Speaker 1: then I'm doing another one of the prophecies as they're
[4:04] Speaker 1: laid out in the rest of the New Testament. Good question,
[4:06] Speaker 1: though the first one should be looking at getting out
[4:08] Speaker 1: towards the end of the year. Decks, thank you for
[4:10] Speaker 1: sending out five Dzy Debate memberships, big w, my friend,
[4:13] Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, Big W. Des and Carlos, thank
[4:17] Speaker 1: you for setting out twenty Deconstruction Zone gifted memberships. That's huge,
[4:22] Speaker 1: my friend. Great to see you tonight. I hope you're
[4:25] Speaker 1: healing and recovering well. Please do keep us up to
[4:30] Speaker 1: date on how you're doing. And I got two more
[4:32] Speaker 1: super chats. Chambermaid says, this is for cheese sauce. I'm
[4:36] Speaker 1: tired of seeing your raw dogging petzels. Actually, I meant
[4:40] Speaker 1: to get some dipping sauce for pretzels and I just
[4:44] Speaker 1: didn't get around to it Tomorrow Saturday. I'm not streaming tomorrow.
[4:46] Speaker 1: Tomorrow I will get some dipping sauce for the pretzels
[4:50] Speaker 1: and lakes. Thank you for the ten dollar super Chet says,
[4:53] Speaker 1: are there any major differences between the targoins and the
[4:55] Speaker 1: Pesheita just wondering. Thanks, and yes, yes there are. They're
[4:59] Speaker 1: all a lot of differences in the targums. The targums
[5:02] Speaker 1: are over the top with trying to translate things so
[5:08] Speaker 1: that they sound more messianic. And I think the Pashita
[5:12] Speaker 1: doesn't take the same exact route. Now you have to
[5:14] Speaker 1: remember my edition of the Pashita is in English. Right there,
[5:20] Speaker 1: certainly could have been borrowing. I don't read Syriac, so
[5:25] Speaker 1: any any statements for me about the Syriac text is
[5:30] Speaker 1: you know from my experience by reading it in English,
[5:33] Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Texas Panieler, and thank you
[5:36] Speaker 1: for gifting five deconstructions of memberships. Big w my friend
[5:40] Speaker 1: super appreciate that we've got one guest waiting to get in,
[5:44] Speaker 1: although I think it might be a friendly we'll see Godwin.
[5:49] Speaker 1: Welcome in, Godwin.
[5:52] Speaker 2: Hey, Hey, justin.
[5:53] Speaker 3: How's it going?
[5:54] Speaker 1: Hey? How are you.
[5:57] Speaker 4: Good?
[5:57] Speaker 5: I'm not driving, My wife.
[5:59] Speaker 1: Is very good. Be safe. Don't don't get yourself hurt
[6:03] Speaker 1: by driving and living so god Godwin, you are the Godwin,
[6:10] Speaker 1: our friend.
[6:13] Speaker 4: I am.
[6:13] Speaker 3: I am nice to meet you.
[6:14] Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. I'll drink some krake in just
[6:18] Speaker 1: for you, amen.
[6:21] Speaker 2: I will tonight.
[6:24] Speaker 3: I had a point.
[6:25] Speaker 5: I noticed that you have that. Well, I'm hearing an
[6:29] Speaker 5: echo of myself. We just turned myself down a little bit.
[6:35] Speaker 5: You have that point about Paul bumping his head. Yeah,
[6:39] Speaker 5: and I think Paulagia has something similar. I want to
[6:42] Speaker 5: throw this one at you. I'm into survival and I
[6:45] Speaker 5: used to go mountain climbing and one of the things
[6:48] Speaker 5: is if you fall asleep on the ground and you
[6:50] Speaker 5: don't have a shelter, animals tend to come near you,
[6:54] Speaker 5: especially the dumber ones. They want to like get the
[6:57] Speaker 5: warmth from you. They cuddle up to you. When you
[7:01] Speaker 5: wake up, you should wake up slowly and carefully. My
[7:05] Speaker 5: theory is that Saint Paul was on the ground sleeping
[7:11] Speaker 5: and a scorpion cuddled up to him. And I've heard
[7:13] Speaker 5: that they can cause you to hallucinate and give you
[7:17] Speaker 5: blindness temporary blindness in some cases. So my theory is
[7:22] Speaker 5: that he got hit by a scorpion and had some
[7:24] Speaker 5: bad dreams.
[7:25] Speaker 1: That's certainly interesting. The poison could also explain some of
[7:29] Speaker 1: the longer lasting effects, like the blindness and whatnot. When
[7:36] Speaker 1: you get a bit by a poisonous animals, sometimes your
[7:39] Speaker 1: body reacts in ways that it takes a couple of
[7:42] Speaker 1: days to get over, like it doesn't just recover right away.
[7:46] Speaker 1: That's certainly an interesting thought. And never I never thought
[7:49] Speaker 1: about that, but that's certainly something. I need them all
[7:51] Speaker 1: over now. I appreciate that.
[7:54] Speaker 5: Yeah me, it hit me when someone in the military
[7:57] Speaker 5: that I knew said that they were getting bit on
[7:59] Speaker 5: purpose so that they could get pulled out by an
[8:03] Speaker 5: emergency helicopter and in the meantime, while they were waiting,
[8:06] Speaker 5: they got to trip out.
[8:08] Speaker 1: Wow, that's wild. I never I never connected the two,
[8:13] Speaker 1: but that's an interesting point.
[8:16] Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to.
[8:16] Speaker 6: Take away from the cooking.
[8:18] Speaker 2: Good stuff.
[8:19] Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much, guy, wasn't great to hear from you.
[8:21] Speaker 1: Be safe, Yeah, take care all right, here's buddy. Thanks
[8:26] Speaker 1: w Godwin, big W to Godwin. That's interesting theory. There's
[8:31] Speaker 1: a lot of possible or plausible theories about the situation.
[8:35] Speaker 1: All right, I think we've got a guest in the
[8:36] Speaker 1: TikTok Q. Let me grab the latest super chest. We'll
[8:41] Speaker 1: get him in. Night man. Great to see you tonight.
[8:43] Speaker 1: Welcome to the live stream. That man says, Happy Friday, justin.
[8:47] Speaker 1: Happy Friday to you, my friend. Happy Friday to you
[8:50] Speaker 1: and our friend Dalton is in the house. The Bible
[8:53] Speaker 1: guy says, ooh, my show was on Dalton. Welcome in,
[8:56] Speaker 1: great to see your friend and hamm In. Thank you
[9:00] Speaker 1: for the Tindour super jet. Hammon says, hi, justin, it's
[9:02] Speaker 1: kind of ironic that a religion like Christianity got popular,
[9:06] Speaker 1: is a religion that doesn't care about this world or
[9:09] Speaker 1: even having children. It's curious that it moderated those opinions.
[9:13] Speaker 1: And actually, isn't it really funny that, like the there
[9:18] Speaker 1: are huge factions of Christianity that swear that part of
[9:24] Speaker 1: the doctrine is that you have to have kids, you
[9:27] Speaker 1: have to care about others and or the planet, when
[9:31] Speaker 1: none of that's actually in the book. According to the book,
[9:34] Speaker 1: the world's about the end. You don't need to have kids,
[9:35] Speaker 1: you don't have to care about the planet. The whole
[9:37] Speaker 1: thing is going to get destroyed by fire. It's all useless,
[9:39] Speaker 1: you know, prepare for the end. The end is nigh. Right.
[9:42] Speaker 1: Let's get our first guest in here from TikTok. We've
[9:46] Speaker 1: got AV with us.
[9:47] Speaker 7: How you doing AV, I'm doing well, Demon, How are
[9:50] Speaker 7: you doing.
[9:51] Speaker 1: I'm doing well?
[9:53] Speaker 4: AV?
[9:53] Speaker 1: Do you have a name or do you prefer to
[9:55] Speaker 1: be called AV.
[9:57] Speaker 7: You can call me AV or the AV show. Woo
[10:00] Speaker 7: woo woo. You know eats. Now, let's get this debate going.
[10:03] Speaker 1: Bro, Actually I don't know it because I've never heard
[10:06] Speaker 1: of you. So way, Well.
[10:08] Speaker 7: You're about to get to know me because you're about
[10:10] Speaker 7: to get destroyed, bro.
[10:11] Speaker 1: To ab Okay, so it's about to get destroyed too
[10:15] Speaker 1: soon to crash out. You have the opportunity to have
[10:19] Speaker 1: a real discussion here me.
[10:20] Speaker 8: Don't be weak. Don't be weak. Every leftist is quit
[10:27] Speaker 8: muting me weak. Quit muting me, you're weak.
[10:32] Speaker 1: He actually wants me to do this so he can
[10:34] Speaker 1: claim so he can claim a false victory. He doesn't
[10:36] Speaker 1: want to have a discussion. Let me know when you're
[10:39] Speaker 1: ready to put your big boy pants on.
[10:40] Speaker 7: Okay, let me know when you quit muting me.
[10:44] Speaker 1: You're not muted right now?
[10:46] Speaker 8: Okay, Well, quit being scared and debate me. Quit Running's
[10:51] Speaker 8: attract star.
[10:52] Speaker 7: He's a runner.
[10:53] Speaker 1: So I don't know if you know this. Part of
[10:55] Speaker 1: having a discussion with another human being is you can't
[10:59] Speaker 1: just talk repetitively and uselessly. So are you capable of
[11:02] Speaker 1: doing that?
[11:04] Speaker 7: Yeah?
[11:04] Speaker 8: But part of a discussion and debate is a quit
[11:06] Speaker 8: mutant quit Heiden behind the mute button brother.
[11:10] Speaker 1: Part of a debate. Part of a debate means that
[11:13] Speaker 1: two people get to talk. And so what happens is
[11:15] Speaker 1: when I get a guest in here that won't let
[11:17] Speaker 1: me talk on my own live stream, that means I'm
[11:20] Speaker 1: forced to mute them. I have no other choice. I
[11:27] Speaker 1: do it right now. I have no other choice but
[11:29] Speaker 1: to mute you, because because you're not actually interested in
[11:33] Speaker 1: having a debate, what you're doing is trying to make
[11:35] Speaker 1: sure that I can't talk because you're terrified of what
[11:37] Speaker 1: I might say. So you could have You could have
[11:41] Speaker 1: a real discussion with me, or or I could just
[11:45] Speaker 1: mute you the whole time. Which one do you want
[11:47] Speaker 1: to do?
[11:49] Speaker 7: This is your champion. He mutes weak. He's weak.
[11:53] Speaker 1: He Well, you can go cry about it somewhere else.
[11:58] Speaker 1: Everyone who's ever watched my show knows that you don't
[12:01] Speaker 1: get muted if you know how to have a real conversation.
[12:03] Speaker 1: Clearly you don't know how to have a real conversation,
[12:06] Speaker 1: and you're a waste of space, So you can go
[12:08] Speaker 1: somewhere else. I'm sure there are adults waiting to get
[12:11] Speaker 1: in and have a real conversation. He's gonna go tell
[12:21] Speaker 1: all his friends that he cooked me. I'm sure of it.
[12:25] Speaker 1: Welcome in, Ralfs Oh hello, yeah, welcome in. How you doing.
[12:30] Speaker 1: How's it going? All?
[12:32] Speaker 9: I'm good.
[12:32] Speaker 3: I'm sitting outside in my I'm sitting outside of my
[12:35] Speaker 3: tool chit.
[12:36] Speaker 1: Oh shit, fun, I would imagine. So Robert, are you yeah?
[12:43] Speaker 1: Are you at least eighteen? And do you believe in God? Oh?
[12:47] Speaker 3: Yeah, I turned forty three.
[12:49] Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm old.
[12:52] Speaker 1: I feel that I'm like a four cent to me.
[12:54] Speaker 3: Yeah, I found like a four centimeter.
[12:56] Speaker 9: Long hair coming out of my ear.
[12:59] Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's going to happen with time.
[13:01] Speaker 6: It is.
[13:01] Speaker 1: It is what it is, you know. Yeah, it's still Ralph.
[13:05] Speaker 1: Which god do you believe in?
[13:08] Speaker 9: I don't believe in any gods.
[13:10] Speaker 1: Well we're happy. We're having a debate right now with
[13:13] Speaker 1: people who do believe in God, so un virtunately, I
[13:16] Speaker 1: have to.
[13:16] Speaker 3: I just want to come in here and say, like,
[13:19] Speaker 3: good job, keep it up.
[13:22] Speaker 1: I think, yeah.
[13:27] Speaker 10: All the it's all about what do you say in
[13:32] Speaker 10: uh is how to control the public.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I see.
[13:37] Speaker 6: Religion.
[13:38] Speaker 10: Religion is being something that they keep you keep above you,
[13:44] Speaker 10: to make you be like, to keep.
[13:47] Speaker 3: Up with a loss and doing whatever they want you
[13:51] Speaker 3: to do.
[13:52] Speaker 1: I think the greatest utility of religion is is mass control.
[13:56] Speaker 1: That's my opinion.
[13:58] Speaker 10: Yeah, because it's the go to control a big population
[14:02] Speaker 10: and that is what is used for. And I look
[14:07] Speaker 10: at it as yeah, it's evil. Yeah, I agree in
[14:11] Speaker 10: its purest form. And I think it's about time that
[14:16] Speaker 10: people start waking up.
[14:19] Speaker 1: We're waking them up one other time.
[14:22] Speaker 10: Yeah so but yeah, either way, keep up the good job.
[14:28] Speaker 10: Just in my tool shed here in Norway.
[14:31] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[14:32] Speaker 1: Well, listen, one of my favorite places to be when
[14:35] Speaker 1: I'm not online is in the garage doing something. So
[14:38] Speaker 1: I hope you have fun.
[14:41] Speaker 10: Yeah, I've Yeah, I live on a farm, so I'm
[14:44] Speaker 10: like always doing some crazy projects or doing something fun
[14:47] Speaker 10: with the kids. Right now, I'm just tinkering around with
[14:50] Speaker 10: my new bow and arrow, so it's gonna be fun.
[14:54] Speaker 1: Newborns. Newborns are a lot of fun. Enjoy the baby though.
[14:58] Speaker 1: Babies are the best. Yes, they are all right. I
[15:02] Speaker 1: have a great one. Cool.
[15:03] Speaker 3: Well, I hope you have a good night.
[15:05] Speaker 1: Hey you too. Here's friend Bye Chess, bye w Rolf.
[15:13] Speaker 1: I love tinkering in the garage. I love it. But
[15:15] Speaker 1: you guys already know me. I love working on cars
[15:17] Speaker 1: and stuff. It's just it's a lot of fun, a
[15:19] Speaker 1: lot of fun. Ripter, thank you for the supertest, says,
[15:23] Speaker 1: I'm forty four years old, always learning and searching. I
[15:25] Speaker 1: don't feel old, You're not you're you're a young man.
[15:30] Speaker 1: But I know I'm old because the priests don't stare
[15:33] Speaker 1: at me anymore. Oh my god, that's good. That's fantastic.
[15:39] Speaker 1: To be fair, though, the wandering eye of the priest
[15:43] Speaker 1: is for the quite young. Quite young. Hertman says, as
[15:47] Speaker 1: a former seekh, and we have our own wackos. Oh,
[15:50] Speaker 1: I'm a former sekh, and we have our own wackos.
[15:52] Speaker 1: But man, I cannot believe the kind of people that
[15:55] Speaker 1: call into your show. It's crazy. It is crazy. I've
[15:58] Speaker 1: talked to people of like Eastern religions, and they're usually
[16:01] Speaker 1: not all that like crazy about the religion. They're usually
[16:05] Speaker 1: pretty level headed. But you know, Abrahamic faith is a
[16:10] Speaker 1: little bit different. Tariq says a watching livestream first time,
[16:14] Speaker 1: it's two o'clock here. You are a great host on
[16:18] Speaker 1: atheist Experience. Well, thank you, so much, Trek. I appreciate
[16:20] Speaker 1: that I should be on the Atheist Experience again this weekend.
[16:23] Speaker 1: I'll be hosting, so it should be a lot of fun.
[16:26] Speaker 1: And last one for now from our friend Nightman, thank
[16:28] Speaker 1: you so much for the additional supertest. Says AV used
[16:31] Speaker 1: to debate Parker and Dean all the time. He's a
[16:34] Speaker 1: failed drama TikToker that will do anything for clout. He's
[16:38] Speaker 1: a trogla diet. I believe that he struck me as
[16:42] Speaker 1: the type of guy that just wants to stir up
[16:44] Speaker 1: trouble and not actually have a discussion, which is why
[16:47] Speaker 1: he opens the conversation with insulting you and then trying
[16:51] Speaker 1: to talk over you. That's a person that's just rage baiting.
[16:54] Speaker 1: That's a legitimate rage baiter. And I'm not sure I'm
[16:57] Speaker 1: not really here for that. Like, if it's a fun
[17:00] Speaker 1: rage bait, I can deal with it, But like if
[17:01] Speaker 1: you just want to come up and yell and force
[17:04] Speaker 1: me to yell back at you, it's not worth it. Okay,
[17:10] Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna get you gi in here and
[17:12] Speaker 1: then trove and then patristic. It seems like that's the order.
[17:15] Speaker 1: How you doing, yugi?
[17:17] Speaker 6: Hey, what's good man?
[17:18] Speaker 1: How you doing doing good? Thanks for asking? Yugi? Are
[17:20] Speaker 1: you at least eighteen and do you believe in a God?
[17:25] Speaker 6: Yes? I am definitely at least eighteen. And I would
[17:28] Speaker 6: say I believe in the God of what is you know,
[17:30] Speaker 6: the traditional sixty six book canon Bible?
[17:33] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[17:33] Speaker 1: Right, So you're a Christian?
[17:36] Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm okay with that label? Yeah, okay?
[17:38] Speaker 1: And do you believe that God is all good? Partially
[17:42] Speaker 1: good or you don't know?
[17:45] Speaker 6: I think he has a justification for what he does,
[17:49] Speaker 6: is what I would say, you know, right, But no,
[17:52] Speaker 6: if I could, yeah.
[17:53] Speaker 1: Go ahead, right, I mean justification aside, I don't think
[17:56] Speaker 1: answers the question and whether or not he's good? Right,
[17:59] Speaker 1: So like from your point of view, well.
[18:02] Speaker 6: Yeah, can I meet you in the middle, Like, I
[18:04] Speaker 6: don't have all the justifications for all he does. So
[18:07] Speaker 6: I'm gonna be humble and say I can't say in
[18:10] Speaker 6: an absolute sense because I don't see what God sees
[18:13] Speaker 6: fair enough, right, God that I believe in? You know
[18:15] Speaker 6: what I mean?
[18:16] Speaker 1: Right? Right? So I think the problem with like the
[18:18] Speaker 1: God is good claim is it kind of ends up
[18:22] Speaker 1: going down like one of two rabbit trails. I think
[18:25] Speaker 1: the first rabbit trill that Christians want to go down
[18:28] Speaker 1: is that God is good because he says so. But
[18:32] Speaker 1: I don't see why that is the case. Like, if
[18:34] Speaker 1: God says he's good, I don't see why I'm obliged
[18:37] Speaker 1: to believe that statement.
[18:40] Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. What's
[18:42] Speaker 6: the other route that you hear? Though?
[18:44] Speaker 1: Well, I think the other route that I hear is
[18:45] Speaker 1: like some like philosophical route typically, well, like, if God
[18:49] Speaker 1: is God, then he must be perfect. If he's perfect,
[18:52] Speaker 1: then he must be good. But like, I don't see
[18:55] Speaker 1: how being a perfect being has anything to do with
[18:57] Speaker 1: good with because a perfect being could just decide that
[19:00] Speaker 1: being evil was part of being perfect, like he set
[19:03] Speaker 1: the parameters.
[19:04] Speaker 6: Okay, Can I offer an alternative that you might not
[19:07] Speaker 6: have heard?
[19:07] Speaker 1: Sure?
[19:09] Speaker 6: Okay. I think that God can do what we would
[19:13] Speaker 6: understand as evils for a justified or reason. So I'll
[19:16] Speaker 6: give you like an analogy. It's not perfect, but I'll
[19:19] Speaker 6: give you an analogy. So, for example, to a child,
[19:23] Speaker 6: we are committing something brutal, they're crying, they're freaking out.
[19:25] Speaker 6: But when we're giving them, let's say a vaccine, right,
[19:29] Speaker 6: But there's a perfectly justifiable reason for putting them through
[19:32] Speaker 6: that pain. Now the child may not fully comprehend or
[19:35] Speaker 6: understand that. Again, it's not a perfect analogy, but I'm
[19:38] Speaker 6: trying to illustrate that. Like, I don't know if it's
[19:41] Speaker 6: a historically held point, but that's kind of where I
[19:46] Speaker 6: would like to take the conversation, that he could do
[19:49] Speaker 6: what we would say is evil insofar as it's justified
[19:52] Speaker 6: to certain people. I don't know if that no.
[19:56] Speaker 1: So, first of all, what you're saying is is probably
[19:59] Speaker 1: obviously so we've heard this, but it's one of the
[20:01] Speaker 1: Betterson I don't know if response is the right way.
[20:06] Speaker 1: So what you're describing is something called necessary evil, right,
[20:10] Speaker 1: So this is where we start to make divisions on
[20:13] Speaker 1: what we mean by bad or evil. So, for example,
[20:16] Speaker 1: you would say, like getting poked by the needle is
[20:19] Speaker 1: the necessary evil, And this is where I would say
[20:22] Speaker 1: that I agree with you. I think there are some
[20:24] Speaker 1: things that are bad, but they're necessary, like we need
[20:27] Speaker 1: them to get to the endpoint. Now that's a little
[20:30] Speaker 1: bit of a concession. I mean, theoretically, if God created everything,
[20:33] Speaker 1: then like the prick from the needle shouldn't have to
[20:36] Speaker 1: be necessary, because he should have just made you so
[20:38] Speaker 1: that you couldn't get diseases. So, like there's a route
[20:41] Speaker 1: you could do with that. But for the sake of
[20:43] Speaker 1: our discussion, like I could just grant you that there
[20:46] Speaker 1: are such things as necessary evil in the way that
[20:51] Speaker 1: the world is created. Because He created the world with
[20:53] Speaker 1: free will, and because we have free will, sometimes we
[20:56] Speaker 1: cause harm to others and so on and so forth. Right,
[20:59] Speaker 1: But okay, I would be concerned with all of the
[21:03] Speaker 1: examples of unnecessary badness that God causes. And I'll give
[21:07] Speaker 1: you an example in Leviticus twenty six.
[21:10] Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, go for it. So God, can you remind
[21:12] Speaker 6: me of because I don't want to click away because
[21:14] Speaker 6: sometimes my phone trips.
[21:15] Speaker 1: No, I got it, got it, I'll put it on
[21:16] Speaker 1: the screen. So God is warning the Israelites what's going
[21:20] Speaker 1: to happen to them if they don't follow his laws exactly,
[21:24] Speaker 1: and he really wants them to follow the laws, like
[21:27] Speaker 1: He's going to punish them quite harshly if they don't. Yeah,
[21:30] Speaker 1: And part of the punishment, he says, you shall this
[21:35] Speaker 1: is the punishment. You shall eat the flesh of your sons,
[21:37] Speaker 1: and you will eat the flesh of your daughters. So
[21:39] Speaker 1: he's talking about Yeah, I remember this, yeah, right in
[21:43] Speaker 1: the siege, right.
[21:45] Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, I'm gonna let you finish the
[21:49] Speaker 6: point though before I like jump in, yeah, I don't
[21:51] Speaker 6: know if that was it or so.
[21:53] Speaker 1: I mean, I think the question we have to ask
[21:55] Speaker 1: ourselves with the passage like this is whether or not
[21:58] Speaker 1: that type of a punishment is necessary and what's it
[22:01] Speaker 1: necessary for?
[22:03] Speaker 6: Gotcha? Okay, So here's what I would respond to that,
[22:08] Speaker 6: would you also agree that you know, this is part
[22:11] Speaker 6: of the totality of what the Bible claims is the
[22:15] Speaker 6: Books of Moses, right like, which is from Genesis down
[22:19] Speaker 6: to Deuteronomy, and that collectively was taught to the Israelites
[22:24] Speaker 6: the Hebrews before they crossed with Joshua. So before I
[22:28] Speaker 6: make that point, I want to make sure like we
[22:29] Speaker 6: agree on that or no.
[22:30] Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be the point, right. This is
[22:32] Speaker 1: before they go into the Promised Land, and God is
[22:35] Speaker 1: already telling them that you guys are gonna screw up
[22:37] Speaker 1: really bad, and when you screw up, this is what
[22:38] Speaker 1: I'm gonna do about it.
[22:40] Speaker 6: Okay, gotcha. And in Deuteronomy it talks about he literally
[22:43] Speaker 6: says like I'm going to wipe you off the face
[22:45] Speaker 6: of the earth. I'm gonna do all these things, all
[22:47] Speaker 6: these rant said horrible things. But so here, I'm actually
[22:50] Speaker 6: really curious what you think about this, because I don't
[22:52] Speaker 6: feel like a lot of people bring this up to you.
[22:53] Speaker 6: So in Judges too, when we start seeing this play out,
[22:58] Speaker 6: the entire nation of Israel commits a posseesy. They're worshiping
[23:02] Speaker 6: other gods, they're doing whatever the heck they want to do.
[23:04] Speaker 6: They completely ignore the law of Moses. But God doesn't
[23:07] Speaker 6: punish him the way that he's prescribing in the Torah.
[23:10] Speaker 6: Why do you think that is? Because my answer would
[23:12] Speaker 6: be that those seem to be warnings and fence laws,
[23:16] Speaker 6: not that they're dogmatically going to be issued the way
[23:22] Speaker 6: that it's stated, just like a law that we know now. Right,
[23:25] Speaker 6: there's a maximum sentence, a minimum sentence, and some things
[23:27] Speaker 6: can be discretionary. That's how I read the Tora. But
[23:30] Speaker 6: I'm curious what you.
[23:30] Speaker 1: Think, right, So you're saying they're empty threats.
[23:35] Speaker 6: More like warnings. They could be true, but it doesn't
[23:38] Speaker 6: necessitate to be the case always, right, So if you
[23:41] Speaker 6: tell someone, if you don't back away, I'm going to
[23:44] Speaker 6: hurt you, right. It doesn't mean that you're going to
[23:47] Speaker 6: always do it, and I don't think it makes it empty.
[23:49] Speaker 6: It just depends on what that person does after.
[23:52] Speaker 1: Right. So, but the problem we have is in the Bible,
[23:55] Speaker 1: God does follow through on the threat.
[23:59] Speaker 6: Why he wipe out Israel and judges too.
[24:01] Speaker 1: Then, because obviously he wasn't serious about that particular threat,
[24:06] Speaker 1: the same reason why he didn't wipe them out in
[24:07] Speaker 1: Exodus thirty two. In Exous thirty two, he threatens to
[24:10] Speaker 1: do the same thing. But what we do know is
[24:13] Speaker 1: that this promise does come true. We read in Lamentations
[24:18] Speaker 1: during the siege of Jerusalem that this is what happened.
[24:21] Speaker 1: The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children, and
[24:24] Speaker 1: they became their food in the destruction of my people.
[24:30] Speaker 6: Sorry about that, somebody waved me down. I didn't hear
[24:32] Speaker 6: what you said. You might never peen that last part.
[24:34] Speaker 6: I apologize.
[24:35] Speaker 1: Yeah. It says the hands of compassionate women have boiled
[24:38] Speaker 1: their own children and they became their food in the
[24:41] Speaker 1: destruction of my people.
[24:44] Speaker 6: And where was this that? This was in Genesis? Right?
[24:46] Speaker 1: This is in lamentations.
[24:48] Speaker 6: Oh, lamentations. Okay, I haven't gotten that far. So I
[24:50] Speaker 6: couldn't even I wouldn't even know the context. But I
[24:54] Speaker 6: don't know, if I guess, like what I'm failing to
[24:57] Speaker 6: see is I don't see it as empty threats when
[25:01] Speaker 6: I don't know if you would agree that it seems
[25:04] Speaker 6: as though the God of you know, the ancients spoke
[25:08] Speaker 6: in a way that they would understand. So if at that, yeah,
[25:12] Speaker 6: go ahead ahead.
[25:13] Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is the threat that I'm going
[25:15] Speaker 1: to make you eat your children that came true?
[25:20] Speaker 6: Oh that he actually did that?
[25:22] Speaker 1: Yeah, in lamentations Jeremiah records of the women of Jerusalem
[25:28] Speaker 1: during this siege boiled their own children and ate them.
[25:32] Speaker 6: Yeah, I would have to see how that ended up happening.
[25:35] Speaker 6: But you know, obviously I will concede that, like, since
[25:39] Speaker 6: we hold to the sovereignty of God, he's ultimately in control,
[25:42] Speaker 6: and he allowed that to happen. Brandted like you know,
[25:45] Speaker 6: much much later though, But I still struggle, like, do
[25:48] Speaker 6: you think that do you think that it's at different
[25:52] Speaker 6: points that he will do certain things or is it
[25:55] Speaker 6: just more like use I guess you wouldn't see it
[25:57] Speaker 6: as a general warning, right, you wouldn't can see that.
[26:00] Speaker 1: Well personally, you know, I think Leviticus twenty six is
[26:03] Speaker 1: written like in post after the Babylonian exile, putting threats
[26:10] Speaker 1: on God's ul like.
[26:12] Speaker 6: You hold like the documentarian views of what.
[26:14] Speaker 1: Is called yeah, And I think one of the reasons
[26:16] Speaker 1: why that threat is in there is because that's what
[26:18] Speaker 1: they actually experienced. Then when we go to lamentations, we
[26:22] Speaker 1: read that that is what they actually experienced, right, So
[26:25] Speaker 1: the reality is I think when it comes to God's threats,
[26:29] Speaker 1: I think there's there's kind of two problems. One is
[26:31] Speaker 1: sometimes they come true and they're kind of horrific. And
[26:34] Speaker 1: number two is if they don't come true, that just
[26:38] Speaker 1: means God's lying. God's saying things are going to happen
[26:41] Speaker 1: that aren't going to happen. And the Bible clearly says
[26:43] Speaker 1: that all of God's words will come to pass.
[26:47] Speaker 6: So you don't think it's a possibility of this being
[26:50] Speaker 6: some sort of fencelaw like for example, like the warning
[26:53] Speaker 6: of stoning children who disobey parents. There's no recording of
[26:56] Speaker 6: it actually happened. More, it's prescribed to kind of like
[26:59] Speaker 6: be a whoa like you don't want to do that.
[27:01] Speaker 6: It's let me give you an example real quick and
[27:03] Speaker 6: then I'm gonna let you. I don't want to like
[27:05] Speaker 6: ramble on. But like in uh where I live in Pennsylvania, right,
[27:09] Speaker 6: they really really really increase the penalty for not buckling
[27:13] Speaker 6: your child in a car. Right, It's almost like it's
[27:16] Speaker 6: actually kind of absurd. But the idea is that things
[27:19] Speaker 6: were so bad in Pa where people were just kind
[27:24] Speaker 6: of not you know, they were neglecting securely fastening their children,
[27:27] Speaker 6: that they've upped it in order to kind of like
[27:29] Speaker 6: make it clear that this will be a die or
[27:31] Speaker 6: punishment if you don't follow it. You don't see that
[27:34] Speaker 6: being a possibility at all, No.
[27:37] Speaker 1: I think I don't think so. And we do have
[27:40] Speaker 1: rabbinic writings like some of these some of these commands
[27:43] Speaker 1: that people will say, well, it's not recorded in the Bible,
[27:46] Speaker 1: so it didn't happen, But like we can find it
[27:48] Speaker 1: being recorded as happening in the Talmud, like we know
[27:51] Speaker 1: that the Jews were doing it right, And I don't
[27:53] Speaker 1: think it's I don't think it's a fair position to
[27:56] Speaker 1: hold that, like just because something wasn't record in the
[28:00] Speaker 1: Bible that it never happened.
[28:02] Speaker 6: I don't Yeah, I don't want to make an argument
[28:03] Speaker 6: from silence. I'm only just kind of positing a explanation
[28:07] Speaker 6: because if you're saying, like, well, God said this and
[28:09] Speaker 6: then he does it in this part of scripture, but
[28:11] Speaker 6: then we see I gave you an example of God
[28:13] Speaker 6: saying he's going to eliminate the Hebrews completely out of existence,
[28:17] Speaker 6: but then he doesn't and Judges two. I think that
[28:21] Speaker 6: that gives wiggle room at least to the idea that
[28:24] Speaker 6: this these laws seem to be at least discretionary. I
[28:26] Speaker 6: think we can agree on that, right, like they seem discretionary, right.
[28:29] Speaker 1: But that's why I'm saying, like, if God is giving
[28:31] Speaker 1: discretionary laws that he doesn't intend to follow through on,
[28:34] Speaker 1: like he's saying, if you do this, I will do this,
[28:36] Speaker 1: and then he doesn't do it, that puts God at
[28:39] Speaker 1: odds with his own words, because he says in numbers
[28:42] Speaker 1: twenty three, nineteen and for Samuel fifteen twenty nine that
[28:46] Speaker 1: God can't lie when he says it's going to happen,
[28:49] Speaker 1: It's going to happen.
[28:51] Speaker 6: Yeah, ge get, I get what you mean to an extent.
[28:53] Speaker 6: I would only push back with deuterotomy, ie, where he
[28:56] Speaker 6: talks about how you know there are judges appointed for
[29:00] Speaker 6: certain parts of Israel, and there seems to be cases
[29:04] Speaker 6: that need to be brought up. Some cases can be
[29:06] Speaker 6: more complicated than others, and so the I don't buy
[29:10] Speaker 6: necessarily that the Torah was as dogmatic as like maybe
[29:13] Speaker 6: we read it to be. You know what I mean.
[29:17] Speaker 6: There seems to be cases, I think, and I could
[29:19] Speaker 6: be wrong to give the references Deuteronomy one. I think
[29:22] Speaker 6: it's from verses twelve to sixteen or seventeen where he
[29:25] Speaker 6: talks about different judges being appointed for different cases and
[29:28] Speaker 6: if it's too complicated, you bring it to God and
[29:30] Speaker 6: God will give the judgment.
[29:31] Speaker 1: Yes, that's also right. So but I don't think that.
[29:35] Speaker 1: I don't think the answer is the point that I raised,
[29:37] Speaker 1: which is, if God is telling you that I'm going
[29:41] Speaker 1: to punish you if you do something right. If God
[29:43] Speaker 1: says I'm going to do something if you do this,
[29:47] Speaker 1: and then they do it and then he doesn't follow through,
[29:50] Speaker 1: that means God said things that aren't true.
[29:53] Speaker 6: Unless well, yeah, I guess going back to the original point,
[29:56] Speaker 6: then I would say that he has a justification. Whether
[29:59] Speaker 6: explicitly or not, we would have to kind of speculate
[30:02] Speaker 6: depending on the text. Though, what I mean, but.
[30:04] Speaker 1: If God says things that are untrue, that means he's
[30:07] Speaker 1: contradicting himself because he says elsewhere that he can't say
[30:09] Speaker 1: things that are untrue.
[30:11] Speaker 6: Again, if there's no justification, I'll agree with that, Like
[30:14] Speaker 6: if he just if it's arbitrary and we have no
[30:17] Speaker 6: reason and we can't like safely deduce any possible reason,
[30:20] Speaker 6: sure I'm down to grant that. But I think if
[30:24] Speaker 6: the laws are discretionary, I'm okay with saying it's you know,
[30:27] Speaker 6: there could be justifications for why he doesn't, let's say,
[30:30] Speaker 6: punish certain people and others, so you know, well, the.
[30:33] Speaker 1: Discretionary nature of the laws is irrelevant to what I'm saying.
[30:36] Speaker 1: What I'm saying is if God tells you he's going
[30:39] Speaker 1: to do something and then he doesn't do it, that
[30:42] Speaker 1: makes him a liar. For Samuel fifteen twenty nine says
[30:46] Speaker 1: the glory of Israel will not deceive or change his mind,
[30:49] Speaker 1: for he is not immortal that he should change his mind.
[30:52] Speaker 1: This is this is a God that does the things
[30:54] Speaker 1: that he says he's going to do. Not a single
[30:57] Speaker 1: word of God is going to fall to the ground.
[31:00] Speaker 6: Yeah, you said this isn't. Yeah, but I guess, oh yeah,
[31:03] Speaker 6: this for Samuel fifteen. This is in reference to his
[31:07] Speaker 6: declaration of getting vengeance against the Amalachites. Right, yeah, I
[31:11] Speaker 6: just I'm not a fundamentalist, so I just I'm not
[31:13] Speaker 6: going to read it that way, you know what I mean.
[31:15] Speaker 1: So the words just don't mean what they mean.
[31:19] Speaker 6: Not always. Yeah, it depends on the context, you know.
[31:23] Speaker 1: So when it says that God doesn't change his mind,
[31:26] Speaker 1: it just doesn't mean that.
[31:28] Speaker 6: So I think that is applicable to his covenants or
[31:31] Speaker 6: his declarations, but not not for the law obviously not.
[31:35] Speaker 6: I'm okay with granting that the law is discretionary, but
[31:38] Speaker 6: his covenant promises.
[31:39] Speaker 1: Now, okay, So then God's just not all knowing.
[31:42] Speaker 6: Then well, what does covenants have to do with being
[31:46] Speaker 6: all knowing?
[31:47] Speaker 1: Covenant has nothing to do with all knowing this. All
[31:49] Speaker 1: knowing this is negated. Once you say that God can
[31:52] Speaker 1: change his mind, all knowing beings can't change their mind.
[31:59] Speaker 6: That's the part that that maybe maybe I'm not understanding.
[32:02] Speaker 6: So when you make like a you don't think that hmm, yeah,
[32:07] Speaker 6: you lost me, brother, hold on, let me go, let
[32:08] Speaker 6: me go back. I'm saying when it comes to the law,
[32:10] Speaker 6: that's discretionary. When it comes to covenants, it's unchanging. Now
[32:14] Speaker 6: what what did What was your response again? I just
[32:16] Speaker 6: maybe I'll missed it.
[32:17] Speaker 1: All knowing beings cannot change their minds.
[32:21] Speaker 6: Oh, you think he's like limited because he's got these attributes.
[32:26] Speaker 6: He can't like discretionarily change punishments. You don't think ka
[32:29] Speaker 6: I can do that.
[32:29] Speaker 1: No, what I'm saying is an all knowing being cannot
[32:34] Speaker 1: change their mind. If they're all knowing being.
[32:37] Speaker 6: Once they say something, they have to follow through.
[32:39] Speaker 1: Yeah. If an all knowing being says they're going to
[32:42] Speaker 1: do something and they don't do it, then either they're
[32:45] Speaker 1: lying or they're not all knowing.
[32:48] Speaker 6: Or or you don't think that there's a possibility of
[32:52] Speaker 6: different ways of speaking to elicit some sort.
[32:54] Speaker 1: Of reaction, it would still be a lie.
[32:58] Speaker 6: Well, so you don't think that people can speak a
[33:00] Speaker 6: certain way like lacutionary and elocutionary.
[33:02] Speaker 1: It would still be a lie.
[33:05] Speaker 6: I guess we just disagree on that. So you okay,
[33:07] Speaker 6: I get where you're where you're coming from, though, But.
[33:10] Speaker 1: That's just the definition of a lie.
[33:11] Speaker 6: Though.
[33:11] Speaker 1: If somebody says I'm going to do something and then
[33:14] Speaker 1: they don't do it, that's called a lie.
[33:16] Speaker 6: Without a justification. I agree, no.
[33:18] Speaker 1: Justification is irrelevant. If you don't do it, it is
[33:21] Speaker 1: a lie.
[33:22] Speaker 6: Okay, So if I say, I, I know, I get
[33:28] Speaker 6: what you're saying, but I don't think you Maybe you're
[33:30] Speaker 6: not hearing me out at all.
[33:31] Speaker 1: I I just disagree. It doesn't matter if you have
[33:34] Speaker 1: a reason for it.
[33:35] Speaker 6: I know, but I get you. I get you. But
[33:37] Speaker 6: here's maybe I'm failing to understand. Because if someone says like, hey,
[33:41] Speaker 6: I'm on my way to work, you find out they
[33:43] Speaker 6: don't go to work, you can't accuse them of a
[33:46] Speaker 6: liar unless they give you a justification why they didn't
[33:48] Speaker 6: make it. You can are they all knowing?
[33:54] Speaker 3: Well?
[33:54] Speaker 6: I I don't understand what that would make a difference.
[33:57] Speaker 1: Because if you're an all knowing and being and you're
[33:59] Speaker 1: on your way to work and you know that you
[34:01] Speaker 1: won't make it there, then saying I'm going to work
[34:04] Speaker 1: as useless. You know you're not going to work. You're
[34:06] Speaker 1: going somewhere else.
[34:08] Speaker 6: But if you're relate, if you're an if you're a
[34:11] Speaker 6: perfect being and you're trying to relate to fallible creatures,
[34:14] Speaker 6: you got to communicate in a way that they would understand.
[34:17] Speaker 6: So like, I guess you're okay, I get what you're saying.
[34:18] Speaker 6: You're saying like because he's all knowing, that therefore necessitates
[34:23] Speaker 6: that he can only speak a very specific way.
[34:25] Speaker 1: Right, Because he's all knowing whenever he says anything about
[34:29] Speaker 1: the future, he can't be wrong about it. An all
[34:32] Speaker 1: knowing being can't be wrong about what happens in the future.
[34:35] Speaker 6: Yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah that I guess
[34:37] Speaker 6: this is where we disagree. You You you're saying like
[34:40] Speaker 6: he has to speak a certain way to illustrate.
[34:43] Speaker 1: I didn't say that, you know, Well, that's what.
[34:46] Speaker 6: Then explain it to me, because I'm not getting what
[34:47] Speaker 6: you're or you're trying to imply here, I'll.
[34:49] Speaker 1: Try him canon all knowing being wrong. Canon all knowing
[34:54] Speaker 1: being be wrong when it says things are going to
[34:58] Speaker 1: happen in the future.
[35:03] Speaker 6: So you know, hmm, I guess in the Biblical narrative,
[35:07] Speaker 6: it really does depend, you know what I mean. Like,
[35:09] Speaker 6: if we're talking about the Bible right now, right, you
[35:11] Speaker 6: clearly see things change depending on what happens, like Joel
[35:14] Speaker 6: to Jonah.
[35:15] Speaker 1: God can be wrong.
[35:18] Speaker 6: It's not that he can't be wrong is that things
[35:19] Speaker 6: are conditional.
[35:20] Speaker 1: I didn't ask about conditionals, but yeah, I guess we're
[35:24] Speaker 1: just talking God. God knows how conditionals work out. Conditionals
[35:28] Speaker 1: don't matter.
[35:30] Speaker 6: But if you're trying to relate to people or have
[35:32] Speaker 6: a relationship with them, you could sure like you, let's say,
[35:36] Speaker 6: God could just say I'm not going to really destroy you.
[35:39] Speaker 6: I'm going to destroy you, but not really, so don't
[35:41] Speaker 6: even worry about it. How does that like? Does? How
[35:44] Speaker 6: is that grounds for a good relationship?
[35:46] Speaker 11: Though?
[35:46] Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying grounds for a good relationship
[35:48] Speaker 1: is that you literally don't just destroy people because they
[35:50] Speaker 1: won't worship you. That'd be the first point. The second
[35:53] Speaker 1: point is that you can just tell them the truth.
[35:55] Speaker 1: You can say, if you disobey me, this is what
[35:58] Speaker 1: will happen, and make sure that the thing that you
[36:00] Speaker 1: warned them about actually happens. Like my father had like
[36:04] Speaker 1: one rule. The rule in our house is you you
[36:09] Speaker 1: knew if you acted up, this was the punishment for it.
[36:13] Speaker 1: And he didn't count the three He didn't give you warnings.
[36:16] Speaker 1: If he caught you doing something, you got the punishment
[36:19] Speaker 1: for it right away, right. That's that's what God could
[36:23] Speaker 1: have got. God could have said, here are the rules.
[36:25] Speaker 1: You disobey, you receive the punishments. I don't count the three,
[36:29] Speaker 1: I don't give warnings, and I don't change my mind.
[36:32] Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what he didn't. That's what he did in Genesis.
[36:34] Speaker 6: But like if your dad told you, you know, I
[36:38] Speaker 6: know everything that you're going to do, exactly how you're
[36:40] Speaker 6: going to do it, and I'm just going to punish you,
[36:43] Speaker 6: Like you don't think that there's that's a little strange
[36:46] Speaker 6: of a relationship to have.
[36:47] Speaker 1: Though, No, being honest, No, I think being honest is
[36:50] Speaker 1: a good relationship.
[36:51] Speaker 6: Well, I agree about being honest, but I also would
[36:54] Speaker 6: disagree with that method of being Like, if God just
[36:57] Speaker 6: said I know absolutely everything you're gonna do, I'm not
[37:00] Speaker 6: going to give you any chance to show genuine, like
[37:03] Speaker 6: let's say, repentance or I didn't say genuine sorrow about
[37:06] Speaker 6: what you did. I'm just going to tell you how
[37:07] Speaker 6: to feel like. It doesn't work that way.
[37:09] Speaker 1: You know, I didn't say any of that means I
[37:10] Speaker 1: have no idea where you got any of that information from.
[37:12] Speaker 1: I didn't say anything like that.
[37:13] Speaker 6: Well, that would be the conclusion if you're saying to
[37:16] Speaker 6: you honestly would be God.
[37:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm saying, is God should be honest about what
[37:20] Speaker 1: he's going to do.
[37:21] Speaker 6: That's it.
[37:22] Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. If God, if God just says,
[37:24] Speaker 1: if you act up, these are the ramifications, and then
[37:28] Speaker 1: he gave you the ramifications, that would be God being honest.
[37:31] Speaker 1: If God says, if you act up, here are the ramifications,
[37:34] Speaker 1: and then he doesn't do it, that's God being dishonest.
[37:39] Speaker 6: Or it's there's a justification where God is speaking in
[37:42] Speaker 6: a way that they would understand.
[37:43] Speaker 1: Justification doesn't It doesn't mean anything. Is it relevant. God
[37:46] Speaker 1: can talk in a way that human beings understand. He
[37:49] Speaker 1: created the mind of humans, he created speech. He's the
[37:52] Speaker 1: one that decided how good human understanding would be.
[37:56] Speaker 6: Yeah, especially at that time. Yeah, it's like, especially the
[37:58] Speaker 6: way that covenants were done and how things seem to
[38:01] Speaker 6: be hyperbolic. I don't really see how that's an issue.
[38:04] Speaker 6: I don't know. Maybe we're just not seeing it.
[38:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not hyperbolic. Those are justifications you have to
[38:09] Speaker 1: put on the text because you don't like what it says.
[38:13] Speaker 6: Well, that's what. But no, I'm not putting anything on
[38:15] Speaker 6: the text we just read that he was gonna do
[38:18] Speaker 6: like again in Deuteronomy the Final Covenant, before they cross,
[38:21] Speaker 6: he says he's gonna wipe them out completely. They completely
[38:25] Speaker 6: disregard the torn Judges too, but he doesn't so either. Yeah, well,
[38:31] Speaker 6: you don't mind if I switch over to my phone
[38:32] Speaker 6: real quick so I can show you what I'm talking about. Yeah,
[38:35] Speaker 6: give me one second, I'll give you. I'm gonna go
[38:37] Speaker 6: to Deuteronomy, and then i'll give you the one to Judges.
[38:39] Speaker 1: All By the way, I don't think Judges, says what
[38:52] Speaker 1: he thinks it is.
[39:14] Speaker 6: The first part of my argument is in Deuteronomy twenty eight,
[39:17] Speaker 6: you know, the blessings and the curses. Yeah, and it's
[39:20] Speaker 6: versus of disobeying. He talks about, you know, completely destroying them.
[39:24] Speaker 6: Let me give you the exact verse.
[39:25] Speaker 3: Hold on.
[39:27] Speaker 1: It talks about bringing them to destruction down in sixty three.
[39:31] Speaker 1: I don't think I.
[39:32] Speaker 6: Don't think twenty one.
[39:34] Speaker 1: All right, what's the first.
[39:38] Speaker 6: Bronomy twenty eight verse twenty and twenty.
[39:40] Speaker 1: One, twenty eight and twenty one.
[39:44] Speaker 6: No twenty and twenty one twenty Yeah, like chapter twenty
[39:48] Speaker 6: eight verse twenty and twenty one.
[39:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, says the Lord will send upon you disaster, panic
[39:56] Speaker 1: and frustration, and everything you attempt to do until you're
[39:59] Speaker 1: destroyed and quick perish on account of your I'm sorry,
[40:02] Speaker 1: on account of the evil of your deeds with which
[40:05] Speaker 1: you have forsaken me. The Lord will make you sorry.
[40:07] Speaker 1: The Lord will make the pestilence cling to you until
[40:10] Speaker 1: it has consumed you off the land that you are
[40:13] Speaker 1: entering to possess. So you're adding to the text that
[40:16] Speaker 1: every single one of them is going to die, because
[40:20] Speaker 1: if you keep reading, it doesn't say that. If you
[40:23] Speaker 1: keep reading in chapter thirty, that's clearly not the case,
[40:26] Speaker 1: because in chapter thirty he tells them what's going to
[40:29] Speaker 1: happen with who's left over?
[40:33] Speaker 6: In chapter thirty. Yeah, So which one's true then? And
[40:37] Speaker 6: you're in your.
[40:38] Speaker 1: View, they're both true. You can bring disaster on a
[40:41] Speaker 1: people group without destroying every last one of them. He's
[40:46] Speaker 1: talking to a corporate people group. You can bring disaster
[40:49] Speaker 1: on a corporate people group without every single individual person
[40:53] Speaker 1: in that group dying.
[40:58] Speaker 6: Okay, So then let's let's go to judges too, and
[41:00] Speaker 6: I'm gonna show you that it says that not a
[41:02] Speaker 6: single person was good. Let me get out.
[41:05] Speaker 1: I agree yeah, not a single person probably was good.
[41:10] Speaker 6: You understand though, that the punishments that we're doubt that
[41:12] Speaker 6: we're discretioning everything. But let me let me get the Versehold,
[41:38] Speaker 6: gonna be ten, eleven.
[41:44] Speaker 2: And twelve.
[41:47] Speaker 6: I don't have any indications. This is just a few people.
[41:50] Speaker 6: We can disagree, but I don't know. Let me see,
[41:51] Speaker 6: let me see what you think.
[41:53] Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is referring to the generation of people
[41:56] Speaker 1: that were in the desert. This is Joshua giving the account.
[42:00] Speaker 1: He says that whole generation was gathered to their ancestors,
[42:03] Speaker 1: and another generation grew up after them, becauld. Remember, they
[42:05] Speaker 1: were cursed to wander for forty years generation who did
[42:09] Speaker 1: not know the Lord or the work that he had
[42:13] Speaker 1: done for Israel. Then the Israelites did what was evil
[42:15] Speaker 1: in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals.
[42:18] Speaker 1: And they abandoned the Lord, the god of their ancestors,
[42:21] Speaker 1: who had brought them out of the land of Egypt.
[42:23] Speaker 1: They followed other gods from among the gods of the
[42:26] Speaker 1: people who were around them, and bowed down to them.
[42:28] Speaker 1: And they provoked the Lord to anger, and they abandoned
[42:31] Speaker 1: the Lord and served b All and the Astartes. So
[42:35] Speaker 1: the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. He
[42:37] Speaker 1: gave them over to plunderers who plundered them. He sold
[42:41] Speaker 1: them into the power of the enemies all around, so
[42:43] Speaker 1: that they could no longer withstand their enemies. Whenever they
[42:46] Speaker 1: marched out, the hand of the Lord was against them
[42:48] Speaker 1: to bring misfortune, as the Lord warned them and sworn
[42:52] Speaker 1: to them, and they were in great distress. Then the
[42:56] Speaker 1: Lord raised up Judges.
[42:58] Speaker 6: Yep, so that's what I mean he did.
[43:02] Speaker 1: God did in Nowhere in here did God threaten to
[43:04] Speaker 1: destroy every last one of them.
[43:08] Speaker 6: No, I'm saying, in the totality of the narrative, this
[43:10] Speaker 6: is pride, so we Deuteronomy was before they crossed.
[43:14] Speaker 1: Deuteronomy doesn't say that they're gonna be completely annihilated. I'm
[43:17] Speaker 1: looking for the verse that says God is gonna wipe
[43:19] Speaker 1: out every single one of them.
[43:21] Speaker 6: Okay, But I'm saying, okay, let me let me be
[43:25] Speaker 6: very clear. If the punishments are necessary, like they need
[43:32] Speaker 6: to be done in order for God to not be
[43:35] Speaker 6: a liar, he would have had to kill every single
[43:38] Speaker 6: one of Israelite according to Judges too, right, No, because
[43:41] Speaker 6: they all served the other gods. He would not have to. No,
[43:47] Speaker 6: so you're agreeing with me.
[43:49] Speaker 1: No, I'm not gonna be I'm saying right now, I'm
[43:52] Speaker 1: saying that you're putting stuff in the text that is
[43:54] Speaker 1: in there. Show me the passage that says God is
[43:56] Speaker 1: going to kill every single Israelite for their disobedience. I'm
[44:02] Speaker 1: still waiting for it. That's what you're supposed to show
[44:03] Speaker 1: me two verses ago.
[44:07] Speaker 6: I'm only illustrating that he doesn't necessarily kill people. Let's say,
[44:10] Speaker 6: for Chamelion Idolatry. It's discretion. That's all I'm trying to posit.
[44:14] Speaker 6: That's it.
[44:15] Speaker 1: Literally, nothing you have said so far demonstrates the validity
[44:19] Speaker 1: of your point up to now. What we're talking about
[44:21] Speaker 1: is whether or not God has to or should follow
[44:25] Speaker 1: through on his threats, and so far, he seems to
[44:28] Speaker 1: follow through on his threats, except for Exes thirty two.
[44:31] Speaker 1: In Nexus thirty two, he threatens to wipe out the
[44:33] Speaker 1: Israelites and then changes his mind according to the text,
[44:36] Speaker 1: which draws an adorable contradiction, one of my favorite contradictions
[44:39] Speaker 1: in the Bible, because he can't change his mind because
[44:42] Speaker 1: he's all knowing.
[44:44] Speaker 6: Yeah, we just disagree on what that means. That's all
[44:46] Speaker 6: I'm saying.
[44:48] Speaker 11: You have no, don't view of it.
[44:50] Speaker 1: No, we don't disagree on what it means. The text
[44:52] Speaker 1: itself says he changed his mind.
[44:55] Speaker 6: No, I know that, But in what way that is?
[44:58] Speaker 1: You know?
[44:58] Speaker 6: Again, I talked about this lacutionary ilcutionary. I don't think
[45:02] Speaker 6: it's a pleason.
[45:03] Speaker 1: It doesn't actually get you anywhere. The question is, did
[45:05] Speaker 1: he change his mind or not.
[45:08] Speaker 6: In so far as his relations to humans? Sure, that's
[45:10] Speaker 6: not a problem.
[45:11] Speaker 1: Okay, So God can change his.
[45:12] Speaker 6: Mind in his relationships with us?
[45:16] Speaker 4: Sure?
[45:16] Speaker 1: Again, can God change his mind?
[45:21] Speaker 6: I don't. Can you really explain what you mean by that?
[45:25] Speaker 1: Can an all knowing being change its mind.
[45:29] Speaker 6: In terms of his relationships with us?
[45:31] Speaker 1: I don't have in terms of what it thinks that's
[45:34] Speaker 1: what it means to change your mind? He didn't say
[45:38] Speaker 1: change the Israelites. It says God changed his mind.
[45:43] Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, I don't have a problem with the way
[45:45] Speaker 6: that it's worded there with that.
[45:46] Speaker 1: Can an all knowing being change their mind?
[45:50] Speaker 6: Clearly? That's what the tech shows.
[45:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, clearly not because if you're all knowing, you can't
[45:54] Speaker 1: change what you think about the future.
[46:00] Speaker 6: Okay, But what's I don't. I don't. I don't get
[46:05] Speaker 6: what you're getting at this. Are you saying that that's
[46:06] Speaker 6: a contradiction, so he has to either Yeah, I'm maybe
[46:09] Speaker 6: I'm too dumb to understand, So okay, let me try it.
[46:12] Speaker 1: Running out is your book? Yeah, your book is got
[46:15] Speaker 1: a contradiction on whether or not God does indeed change
[46:18] Speaker 1: his mind, because in multiple places it says God does
[46:22] Speaker 1: not change his mind, and then in Exous thirty two
[46:25] Speaker 1: and according to you, God does change his mind, which
[46:28] Speaker 1: means something's got to go. Either God does change his
[46:31] Speaker 1: mind and he's not all knowing, or God doesn't change
[46:34] Speaker 1: his mind and these passages are false.
[46:38] Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I think the I think we've already,
[46:41] Speaker 6: like as Christians, kind of hash this out, that it's
[46:43] Speaker 6: just a way of Him speaking to us. I don't
[46:44] Speaker 6: think you have no I mean we've been doing this
[46:47] Speaker 6: in antiquity. Bro, Like, I don't know what else to
[46:49] Speaker 6: tell you.
[46:49] Speaker 1: So then God says things that are untrue.
[46:54] Speaker 6: And so far as we can understand them, can you, like,
[46:56] Speaker 6: even even if I grant that, like, let's say you, well, okay,
[46:59] Speaker 6: I get what you're saying.
[47:00] Speaker 1: What can you not understand about God? Won't change his
[47:03] Speaker 1: mind or will change his mind. I don't understand why
[47:06] Speaker 1: our understanding has anything to do with God being able
[47:08] Speaker 1: to change his mind. You understand the passage. Do you
[47:12] Speaker 1: understand this passage when it says God changed his mind?
[47:16] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[47:16] Speaker 1: Of course I okay. If it said God did it
[47:19] Speaker 1: change If it said God did not change his mind,
[47:21] Speaker 1: could you understand that?
[47:24] Speaker 6: Of course?
[47:25] Speaker 1: Okay. So our understanding is more than capable of understanding
[47:30] Speaker 1: if something can or cannot change his mind. That's not
[47:33] Speaker 1: beyond this. We can do calculus. We've been doing calculus
[47:36] Speaker 1: since like the Akkadian age, so we can understand if
[47:40] Speaker 1: an all knowing entity can change his mind. That's not
[47:43] Speaker 1: something we need divine revelation for the reality is the
[47:46] Speaker 1: Bible just said things that are contradictory.
[47:49] Speaker 6: Now, I just don't think that Moses. Well, I believe
[47:51] Speaker 6: it was Moses and wrote it. But let me use
[47:53] Speaker 6: the argument that it's the you said as pre post
[47:56] Speaker 6: Babylonian authors.
[47:58] Speaker 1: No matter when you think it was written, certainly isn't
[48:00] Speaker 1: really Moses.
[48:01] Speaker 6: Oh got So what I'm saying, I don't buy that
[48:04] Speaker 6: Moses is trying to be a theologian and like hash
[48:08] Speaker 6: out how exactly that mechanically works.
[48:10] Speaker 1: Did God? Did Moses write down what God wanted him to?
[48:18] Speaker 6: Of course, yeah, in a way that they would understand.
[48:20] Speaker 1: Though again we have already addressed it. Human beings are
[48:25] Speaker 1: capable of understanding the word not in dow.
[48:28] Speaker 6: Yeah, but Exodus isn't a theologically dense book. It's a narrative.
[48:32] Speaker 1: Say anything about theology. If it says something that's untrue,
[48:35] Speaker 1: it's untrue. And Exus thirty two when it says the
[48:38] Speaker 1: Lord changed his mind, if God is not capable of
[48:41] Speaker 1: changing his mind, then you can just say God doesn't
[48:44] Speaker 1: change his mind. And it says that. Right, we have
[48:47] Speaker 1: two clear texts. One says God does not change his
[48:50] Speaker 1: mind and one that says God did change his mind.
[48:53] Speaker 1: It's a simple contradiction. Our understanding is more than capable
[48:57] Speaker 1: of grasping this.
[49:01] Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I get your your view. I just
[49:05] Speaker 6: think that you know what I mean, Like we're just
[49:08] Speaker 6: that that's our crossroads, because I don't think. I don't
[49:10] Speaker 6: think I.
[49:12] Speaker 1: Cross road.
[49:14] Speaker 6: I'm not like a fundamentalist. Yeah, just readetective There it
[49:16] Speaker 6: says what it says, and that's it. Like there's theology, right, Yeah,
[49:18] Speaker 6: one of us is honest, and one that's not. That's fine,
[49:21] Speaker 6: that's fine. You can call me dishonest. But you know
[49:23] Speaker 6: what I mean, there's years of theology behind this.
[49:24] Speaker 1: Dude, I know that. That's why I'm pointing it out.
[49:28] Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm not a fundamentalist.
[49:29] Speaker 1: I mean I never said you were. Either the text
[49:32] Speaker 1: is true or it is not.
[49:35] Speaker 6: I don't read it like that, like I don't read So.
[49:39] Speaker 1: Let's actually finish the initial discussion, which is, do you
[49:42] Speaker 1: think it's good for God to have his children cannibalized
[49:46] Speaker 1: for their sins?
[49:49] Speaker 6: WHOA Okay, let me make it clear. Do I think
[49:52] Speaker 6: that that whole thing is good? No? And even I
[49:55] Speaker 6: have my struggles with understanding why God would put us
[49:58] Speaker 6: through such punishments, but ran it. Like, my initial argument
[50:03] Speaker 6: was if he has the justification for it. The question
[50:06] Speaker 6: is why.
[50:06] Speaker 1: I didn't actual justifications. I'm asking was it good?
[50:09] Speaker 6: That was my argument initially.
[50:10] Speaker 1: Yeah, it came to me that you know that it's
[50:13] Speaker 1: not good, and now you're trying to say, well, there
[50:15] Speaker 1: must be a justification for it, right, what's.
[50:16] Speaker 6: The just must be? I'm saying that's the route that
[50:18] Speaker 6: I take.
[50:19] Speaker 1: Obviously, you have to you're a Christian you have to
[50:22] Speaker 1: say that there was a.
[50:23] Speaker 6: Justification have to do anything I can think for myself
[50:25] Speaker 6: to No.
[50:26] Speaker 1: You can't because you believe God is all good?
[50:29] Speaker 6: When did I say that? My initial argument was you.
[50:31] Speaker 1: Literally started the conversation. The first thing you said when
[50:35] Speaker 1: I came in is I asked you about your review
[50:37] Speaker 1: on God, whether he was all good, partially good, or
[50:39] Speaker 1: you don't know? And you said he was all good?
[50:43] Speaker 6: Maybe? Okay, Well, I'm I'm gonna let it go there.
[50:46] Speaker 6: I'm gonna go back, and I'm a check if I
[50:47] Speaker 6: really mean you're almost positive myself depending on the justification.
[50:50] Speaker 1: You're welcome to yourself. Is God all good or not?
[50:55] Speaker 6: What do you mean? Wait? Say that one more time.
[50:56] Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
[50:57] Speaker 1: Is God all good or not?
[51:00] Speaker 6: And so far as what I can tell, yeah, he
[51:02] Speaker 6: has a justified you know, reason of being good?
[51:04] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[51:05] Speaker 1: Okay, so everything God does is good? Right?
[51:10] Speaker 6: I don't know everything, dude, I really don't.
[51:13] Speaker 1: Well, that's the position you're trying to debate right now.
[51:16] Speaker 1: If you don't know if God is good, you can
[51:17] Speaker 1: say I don't know.
[51:19] Speaker 6: Yeah, I can only speak for like the biblical narrative
[51:22] Speaker 6: right now, I don't know every single act or why
[51:24] Speaker 6: God allowed or didn't allow, and whether it's good or not.
[51:26] Speaker 6: I don't know because I don't have that information.
[51:28] Speaker 1: Okay, so you.
[51:29] Speaker 6: Don't know if God is good in so far as
[51:32] Speaker 6: what the Bible teaches. I do know that, but outside
[51:35] Speaker 6: of that, I don't know.
[51:37] Speaker 1: But you don't have an opinion.
[51:40] Speaker 6: I'm saying I need to see a justification in order
[51:42] Speaker 6: to properly give judgment on what is good or wrong.
[51:45] Speaker 1: What do you think the justification is.
[51:47] Speaker 6: I don't. We're speculating. We'll both be speculating at that point.
[51:50] Speaker 6: I wasn't there, dude.
[51:51] Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just ticking to what the book says.
[51:54] Speaker 6: But I told you I don't hold that view, you
[51:56] Speaker 6: know what I mean? Maybe maybe if someone else like
[51:58] Speaker 6: was like, I'm a Bible alone and whatever the Bible
[52:00] Speaker 6: says word for word is exactly what I believe, but
[52:02] Speaker 6: like it's more complex than that.
[52:04] Speaker 1: I don't know if it is actually more complex than that.
[52:07] Speaker 1: Our discussion is based on like the articles of Christianity.
[52:11] Speaker 1: They're like the basic like theology, whether you believe in
[52:15] Speaker 1: Bible alone or Bible plus. Tradition holds that God is
[52:19] Speaker 1: necessarily good to do anything that's not good, would be
[52:21] Speaker 1: against his divine nature.
[52:24] Speaker 6: Yeah, that's like the classical position. I'm just but I
[52:27] Speaker 6: told you from the beginning of this conversation it's going
[52:29] Speaker 6: to be a different route. I'm not going to go
[52:31] Speaker 6: down to rabbit holes that like you would typically go down.
[52:32] Speaker 6: I'm saying, like, I don't know the justifications you don't.
[52:36] Speaker 6: We can only talk for like what the Bible teaches,
[52:38] Speaker 6: and maybe we can speculate off that, but beyond that,
[52:41] Speaker 6: like I can't tell you, I don't know me. I'm
[52:43] Speaker 6: totally okay. Hand up, I'm totally okay with saying like
[52:46] Speaker 6: God could be wrong for all that he does, but
[52:49] Speaker 6: I don't know. That's what I'm literally conceding with you.
[52:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, you think it's ever fair to punish somebody for
[52:55] Speaker 1: making a mistake by having them eaten by lions?
[53:01] Speaker 6: Well, are you talking? Which situation are you talking about, Daniel? No,
[53:05] Speaker 6: which one am I going to tell you to answer
[53:07] Speaker 6: the question? We'm I don't know. We're both speculating. What
[53:11] Speaker 6: do you mean? Say that one more time?
[53:13] Speaker 1: Do you think there's a scenario in which somebody should
[53:15] Speaker 1: be punished by having them eaten by lions if they've
[53:18] Speaker 1: become deceived by somebody else. Well, for example, if I said, Yugi,
[53:23] Speaker 1: I need you to go to the post office and
[53:26] Speaker 1: retrieve my mail. Let's imagine you go to the post
[53:29] Speaker 1: office and you get there and the post office guy
[53:32] Speaker 1: is like, actually, you're at the wrong post office. You
[53:34] Speaker 1: need to go to the UPS store. And then you
[53:36] Speaker 1: come back to me and you're like, listen, I ain't
[53:38] Speaker 1: got your mail because the UPS guy, you know, or
[53:41] Speaker 1: the the other guy there said that it's at the
[53:43] Speaker 1: other office. And then I have you eaten by lions
[53:46] Speaker 1: since you didn't retrieve my mail because you were deceived.
[53:48] Speaker 1: Would that be a fair punishment?
[53:50] Speaker 6: I mean, in this limited senate? Wait, what's in the mail?
[53:53] Speaker 6: Do you could just say just a general mail you're
[53:55] Speaker 6: saying hi to someone or something.
[53:56] Speaker 1: Does that matter?
[53:58] Speaker 6: Doesn't matter? Nope, Okay, I'm just saying, like, if that
[54:04] Speaker 6: mail was let's say, like the final cult to you know,
[54:08] Speaker 6: to solving something that's crucially important for the state of humanity,
[54:11] Speaker 6: I'm not saying it would be right, but I'm saying
[54:12] Speaker 6: I could understand why somebody would do that.
[54:15] Speaker 1: Okay, So if I sent you to get my mail
[54:17] Speaker 1: and there was something really important in my mail, and
[54:21] Speaker 1: you got to the Then you got to the post
[54:23] Speaker 1: office and the guy at the post office is like, hey,
[54:26] Speaker 1: his mail is not actually here, and you left empty handed.
[54:29] Speaker 1: You'd be okay with being eaten by.
[54:30] Speaker 6: Lions, just some general mail. You said, that's a mail
[54:36] Speaker 6: or it's really important. It doesn't matter how important it is.
[54:39] Speaker 1: No, I mean certainly it's important.
[54:44] Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't know you're gonna have. I'm gonna need
[54:45] Speaker 6: a little more than that.
[54:46] Speaker 4: Man.
[54:46] Speaker 6: I can't just like throw out an answer right there. Again,
[54:49] Speaker 6: I would not okay.
[54:51] Speaker 1: There's a letter from the president in it? What now?
[54:55] Speaker 1: And is.
[54:57] Speaker 6: You gotta give me more details? Dude?
[55:00] Speaker 1: So there is a letter from the president. I'm corresponding
[55:02] Speaker 1: with the president. There's a correspondence from the president that's
[55:05] Speaker 1: going to be in the mail. I need you to
[55:06] Speaker 1: go retrieve it. And if you show up, I'm behanded.
[55:09] Speaker 1: I'm going to have you eaten by lions. Do you
[55:10] Speaker 1: think that's fair?
[55:12] Speaker 6: That happens all. I'm not saying I don't think it's fair,
[55:14] Speaker 6: but I understand why people take it to that route.
[55:16] Speaker 6: I get it.
[55:17] Speaker 1: So would it be good if I did?
[55:18] Speaker 3: Right?
[55:22] Speaker 6: That's the would it be good? No, it's not good.
[55:25] Speaker 1: Oh, that wouldn't be good.
[55:26] Speaker 6: Okay, No, it's not a good thing that that happened.
[55:28] Speaker 6: But I understand why it happened.
[55:30] Speaker 1: You know, Would it be a good behavior if I
[55:32] Speaker 1: sicked lions on you? Would that be a good behavior?
[55:35] Speaker 6: No? That act in and of itself, there's nothing good
[55:38] Speaker 6: about that.
[55:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that would be bad. Would that be wrong
[55:41] Speaker 1: for doing it?
[55:44] Speaker 6: That's going to be the debate. It depends on the
[55:46] Speaker 6: totality of the circumstances. I need everything. You just don't
[55:49] Speaker 6: be vague. It's important. Okay.
[55:51] Speaker 1: So why does the totality of the circumstances have to
[55:54] Speaker 1: do with whether or not my behavior is wrong? Because
[55:56] Speaker 1: you've been tricked?
[55:57] Speaker 6: Okay, because that's how we handle almost any.
[56:01] Speaker 1: He's hedging so bad. He's hedging so bad from when
[56:04] Speaker 1: we get to the Bible. He can't say. He can't
[56:06] Speaker 1: tell me anything until I read them the Bible message,
[56:10] Speaker 1: my guy.
[56:10] Speaker 6: I'm right here. He just talk to me normal. Look,
[56:12] Speaker 6: you got it.
[56:13] Speaker 1: Man.
[56:13] Speaker 6: If you think like I'm like crazy or something, or
[56:15] Speaker 6: if I'm messed up, you could just say it's fine.
[56:17] Speaker 1: I don't think you're messed up. I think what you're
[56:18] Speaker 1: doing is you're hedging because you know I'm about to
[56:20] Speaker 1: read you a Bible story that sounds what that means vaguely,
[56:23] Speaker 1: it's similar to the narrative that we just laid out.
[56:27] Speaker 6: I got you. But what do you mean by hedging?
[56:29] Speaker 6: I just don't. I don't know what that means. What
[56:31] Speaker 6: is that?
[56:31] Speaker 1: Hedging is when you're you're laying down a preservatory bet
[56:35] Speaker 1: for the future. So like airplane companies practice hedging, when
[56:41] Speaker 1: the price of fuel dips, they'll buy huge quantities of
[56:45] Speaker 1: fuel to hedge against the rising price of fuel for
[56:48] Speaker 1: when it goes back up.
[56:49] Speaker 6: Okay, okay, Can I tell you why you're wrong about that?
[56:51] Speaker 6: Because apparently you can read my mind. That's not what
[56:53] Speaker 6: I'm doing. Can I tell you what I'm actually doing
[56:55] Speaker 6: instead of just assuming? Yeah, okay, thank you. So the
[56:57] Speaker 6: reason why I'm asking for the totality of the circumstance
[57:00] Speaker 6: is because that's how we literally judge people in court.
[57:03] Speaker 6: I would appreciate it, just like you. If you were
[57:05] Speaker 6: a juror, would you not want to know everything before
[57:08] Speaker 6: you sent someone to life in prison? Then don't say I'm.
[57:12] Speaker 1: Happening what no circumstantial details do you need to know?
[57:15] Speaker 1: Before you can judge.
[57:16] Speaker 6: It, all of it, whatever it is, all of it.
[57:20] Speaker 6: I need all of it.
[57:20] Speaker 1: I just told you to the top.
[57:22] Speaker 6: Yeah you didn't.
[57:24] Speaker 1: I I said you to the post office. You got
[57:27] Speaker 1: deceived by somebody at the post office, and you come
[57:30] Speaker 1: back empty handed. I'm mad that you're empty handed. And
[57:33] Speaker 1: I have you fed the lines?
[57:34] Speaker 6: Okay? Okay? And you said it was a message from
[57:37] Speaker 6: the president, which you didn't want to tell me what
[57:38] Speaker 6: it was.
[57:39] Speaker 1: Why would I tell you it's internal correspondence?
[57:42] Speaker 6: Okay. So that's why I told you. The act of
[57:46] Speaker 6: having someone get eating my lines is bad. But I
[57:49] Speaker 6: don't know enough to know if it's absolutely bad, because
[57:52] Speaker 6: you just gave me vague details. I don't know what
[57:54] Speaker 6: would make it good. There could be a lot of circumstances.
[57:58] Speaker 1: What name one.
[58:00] Speaker 6: Okay. The act of getting eaten by lion isn't good. Okay,
[58:07] Speaker 6: But if this person, for whatever reason or another, you
[58:11] Speaker 6: know what I mean, is negligent in doing it and
[58:13] Speaker 6: it costs the lives of everyone. I didn't.
[58:15] Speaker 1: I didn't say. I didn't say negligent. Added that I
[58:18] Speaker 1: didn't say anything about negligent.
[58:20] Speaker 6: Okay, But you just asked me what would.
[58:22] Speaker 1: Make it bad, dude, I said, I said, would make
[58:25] Speaker 1: it bad? No, within the parameters I gave you. The
[58:28] Speaker 1: parameters I gave you is that you're deceived by.
[58:32] Speaker 6: Nothing.
[58:32] Speaker 12: But the.
[58:35] Speaker 1: Parameter is everything. I gave you the parameters of the analogy.
[58:39] Speaker 1: You can't throw away my parameters. The parameter of my
[58:42] Speaker 1: analogy is that you are getting deceived by somebody at
[58:46] Speaker 1: the post office. I didn't say anything about negligence, but.
[58:51] Speaker 6: You asked me what would make it.
[58:52] Speaker 1: I within my analogy. Obviously, I didn't ask you to
[58:55] Speaker 1: make up as within my analogy, you don't. You don't
[58:58] Speaker 1: get to make up your own annow or do you
[59:00] Speaker 1: have to play within the one we're already laying down.
[59:03] Speaker 6: Okay, if new detail let me be very clear, if
[59:05] Speaker 6: outside of the parameters that you said, if new details
[59:07] Speaker 6: came up at all, yes, it would probably change it.
[59:11] Speaker 6: Then you asked me, what will change it? I misunderstood
[59:15] Speaker 6: within the parameters or a new scenario within the parameters.
[59:18] Speaker 1: You don't get to make your own scenario. Nothing, Okay,
[59:21] Speaker 1: So there would be nothing? Yeah, because yeah, because you're
[59:24] Speaker 1: you're giving me because you were limited, because you were deceived.
[59:27] Speaker 1: You didn't act out of maliciousness? Did you.
[59:32] Speaker 6: Because I was deceived? Yeah, dude, look, okay, what do
[59:38] Speaker 6: you mean by me like in the scenario?
[59:39] Speaker 1: Don't know why words are so hard for you, U GI.
[59:42] Speaker 1: It's a very easy scenario. You go to the post
[59:46] Speaker 1: office to pick up my package. The guy at the
[59:49] Speaker 1: post office tells you that that package is not here.
[59:52] Speaker 1: You have to go to ups. You've been deceived by
[59:57] Speaker 1: the guy at the post office. He lied to you.
[1:00:00] Speaker 1: He told you something that's untrue. You believed it. You
[1:00:04] Speaker 1: were deceived. Because you were deceived, you show up empty handed.
[1:00:09] Speaker 1: I say, listen, I told you not to show up
[1:00:11] Speaker 1: empty handed. Now I got to feed it into the lions.
[1:00:14] Speaker 1: Do you think that's fair?
[1:00:16] Speaker 6: Nothing?
[1:00:16] Speaker 1: Right? It all sucks because you were deceived. Weren't you right?
[1:00:23] Speaker 6: What? Okay?
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: Now? Because I was deceived?
[1:00:27] Speaker 6: Yeah, you were wrong. I'm wrong. I'm not wrong, but
[1:00:30] Speaker 6: I should have Let's say I should have maybe investigated further.
[1:00:33] Speaker 6: I'll say that if you're a diligent person, you're going
[1:00:37] Speaker 6: to make sure that are you really sure? What do
[1:00:39] Speaker 6: you mean by that?
[1:00:39] Speaker 1: I w I'll never understand Christians justifying the most horrific
[1:00:44] Speaker 1: actions on the planet, like being literally fed to the lions.
[1:00:49] Speaker 1: This guy literally thinks human beings should be fed to
[1:00:52] Speaker 1: lions if they if they get deceived. Why trying to
[1:00:57] Speaker 1: fulfill emission?
[1:00:58] Speaker 6: It's crazy.
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: Okay, so let's actually read the Bible passage. I'm show
[1:01:04] Speaker 1: the Bible passage that you've been hedging for. So because
[1:01:08] Speaker 1: there lived an old prophet in Bethel, one of his
[1:01:10] Speaker 1: sons came and told him all that the Man of
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: God had done that day in Oh he left. They run.
[1:01:18] Speaker 1: They are so terrified of the Bible, like they're so
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: afraid to read this thing. Oh well, second, second, King thirteen.
[1:01:27] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. First King thirteen is where you can find
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, I would have ran to I wouldn't
[1:01:35] Speaker 1: read the Bible. Oh well, doll and thank you for
[1:01:40] Speaker 1: the find dow supertest. It says, Oh, my show is hot.
[1:01:42] Speaker 1: I think he super chatted twice, but thank you, my friend.
[1:01:44] Speaker 1: And gay as Husky says, I can't understand grape in
[1:01:48] Speaker 1: the Bible because of my limited knowledge equals self gaslighting
[1:01:51] Speaker 1: and excuses for evil my moral ground. Grape is wrong.
[1:01:55] Speaker 1: Does God have a problem? Yeah, I would imagine so
[1:01:58] Speaker 1: Christianity has a huge problem, huge problem. And Hammon says
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: guy says, you have feminine energy, but is emotional at
[1:02:07] Speaker 1: a thing he probably thinks is feminine, or but is
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: emotional a thing that he probably thinks is feminine. Couldn't
[1:02:13] Speaker 1: agree more that first guy was really up in his fiefees.
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: Not a really masculine trait. But I would argue that
[1:02:20] Speaker 1: real men do have emotions. Angry and malachite infant says
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: Galatians two eleven. Paul rebukes Peter for being jew to
[1:02:27] Speaker 1: the Jews, gentiles to the Gentiles, even calls Peter a hypocrite.
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: Porphyry noticed this problem in the second century. Hat tip.
[1:02:37] Speaker 1: Thank you, mind schiff. I appreciate that.
[1:02:38] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:02:39] Speaker 1: So like, if you want to read early disputes against Christianity,
[1:02:44] Speaker 1: that are good. You want to read Julian, you want
[1:02:46] Speaker 1: to read Keelsis, and you want to read Porphyry. Those
[1:02:49] Speaker 1: are three really good early accounts. The other thing is,
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: I would add in Trifo. Trifo has a dialogue against
[1:02:55] Speaker 1: the Christians that are recorded in justin Martyr's writing. You
[1:02:58] Speaker 1: could probably find a reconstruction of just tripose portions. Act
[1:03:02] Speaker 1: me hero, great to see your friend, Thank you for
[1:03:03] Speaker 1: the super gesa. It's not sure deconstruction is enough. These
[1:03:06] Speaker 1: beliefs are harmful to humanity. They should be shunned into nonexistence.
[1:03:11] Speaker 1: Genocide is bad, Okay, I don't and we've just we
[1:03:15] Speaker 1: we literally just demonstrated why this is why it's so dangerous,
[1:03:18] Speaker 1: because people will literally get up here and justify being
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: cannibalized and fed to lions. Crazy. And remember God is
[1:03:26] Speaker 1: punishing these people because they won't worship him. God's standard
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: of justice is you must be a based and worship
[1:03:34] Speaker 1: me or I'll terrorize you. Meg says, leaving Mormonism makes
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: me feel cynical about being forced into being a stay
[1:03:42] Speaker 1: at home mom, But Justin's love of babies makes me
[1:03:45] Speaker 1: remember it wasn't all bad. But thank you, Meg, and
[1:03:47] Speaker 1: I fucking love babies, Like I'm I'm the guy Like
[1:03:52] Speaker 1: if I go to someone's house and there's a baby,
[1:03:54] Speaker 1: I want to hold the baby. Guys, go get a drink,
[1:03:56] Speaker 1: have some dinner, I got it, give me the baby.
[1:03:58] Speaker 1: I wanna. I want to. I want to hold the baby.
[1:04:00] Speaker 1: Babies are the best babies, puppies, kittens, if they're just
[1:04:04] Speaker 1: the best. Emon says on what authority do Protestants say
[1:04:07] Speaker 1: that the cannon in sixty six books. They don't really
[1:04:10] Speaker 1: have a good authority. That's just the facts of the matter.
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: But it is what it is. What are you gonna do?
[1:04:16] Speaker 1: We could have that as a debate topic once. Maybe
[1:04:18] Speaker 1: we should. Eric, thank you for the twenty dollars super
[1:04:21] Speaker 1: chests has been an atheist for a year just rising
[1:04:23] Speaker 1: stumbled onto your channel, and I must say you are incredible.
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: I love how you use the Bible to destroy Christians
[1:04:29] Speaker 1: and common sense to hold others to the ridiculous beliefs.
[1:04:33] Speaker 1: Stay rock hard for Doug, and also stay let me,
[1:04:37] Speaker 1: let me get it right, sinfully wet for Sharon. Absolutely, hey,
[1:04:42] Speaker 1: thank you for the super ched I appreciate that. And
[1:04:44] Speaker 1: get says if God's will encompasses all action of what
[1:04:48] Speaker 1: humans do, then it's not evil or wrong any consequences
[1:04:51] Speaker 1: of said action. For instance, grape is not wrong if
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: it falls in his will. I mean, that's from the
[1:04:57] Speaker 1: theistic point of view, But then you would still have
[1:04:59] Speaker 1: to justify why I would conclude that just because he's God,
[1:05:04] Speaker 1: his will is good. That's something you're assuming about the God.
[1:05:07] Speaker 1: That's not something you can prove about the God. The
[1:05:09] Speaker 1: God could just be an asshole and You're easily deceived,
[1:05:13] Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Also, David says New Testament,
[1:05:16] Speaker 1: Anonias and Saphira lied to Peter, and the Holy Spirit died,
[1:05:20] Speaker 1: and the Holy Spirit and then died same God. He
[1:05:24] Speaker 1: tells you the consequences. People just trust him constantly. I
[1:05:28] Speaker 1: know the story of Peter basically executing Anonias and Sapphires
[1:05:32] Speaker 1: for not doting all their money as a wild one
[1:05:34] Speaker 1: rationalists muscle, thank you for the twenty dollars. Superdess is justin.
[1:05:37] Speaker 1: I disliked this show and I'll never let my youngins
[1:05:41] Speaker 1: watch it. But because I'm a believer, that really means
[1:05:44] Speaker 1: I adore this show and I make them watch or
[1:05:47] Speaker 1: I'll torch them because I love them. Hella, Doug Brother,
[1:05:50] Speaker 1: this is right out of Yahweh's mouth. This is exactly
[1:05:53] Speaker 1: something he would do. Thank you for that. And Gaius
[1:05:57] Speaker 1: Husky coming in again, says Christianity is bad for society.
[1:06:01] Speaker 1: HRT abortion bands in I don't know what MS equals
[1:06:05] Speaker 1: infant desk because doctors are scared to work with Christians,
[1:06:08] Speaker 1: makes kids in Philippines give birth, causing poverty. Christian tyrants
[1:06:13] Speaker 1: in Russia, Africa and Hungary. Christian ATK's Science, Education and
[1:06:18] Speaker 1: free speech couldn't agree more. Christianity is holding back society
[1:06:23] Speaker 1: and Jos Rancher says, do two tower YouTube superchats get read?
[1:06:27] Speaker 1: Seems not the other day. Also, do you have any
[1:06:29] Speaker 1: thoughts on Tim mackie Bible Project in terms of quality
[1:06:32] Speaker 1: and accuracy? I like the Bible Project. I've heard him
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: say some things that I disagree with, but in general
[1:06:37] Speaker 1: it's pretty good. The two dollars superchats, like anything below
[1:06:42] Speaker 1: like four ninety nine, I kind of save to the
[1:06:45] Speaker 1: end of the live stream because I get so many
[1:06:47] Speaker 1: super chats that, like I have to prioritize them somewhere.
[1:06:51] Speaker 1: So like, if it's super relevant to the discussion or
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: you paid like a certain amount for it, I'm going
[1:06:55] Speaker 1: to put that at the front of the superchat line.
[1:06:59] Speaker 1: But like, unfortunately, like I have to have some kind
[1:07:02] Speaker 1: of system of prioritization because of all the superchats that
[1:07:06] Speaker 1: come in, And that's kind of the system I decided on.
[1:07:09] Speaker 1: I figure, like, if somebody is willing to pay ten, fifteen,
[1:07:13] Speaker 1: twenty bucks for a super chat, that kind of puts
[1:07:14] Speaker 1: them to the front, because nobody wants to put twenty
[1:07:17] Speaker 1: bucks down on a super chat and then not hear
[1:07:19] Speaker 1: it read. It's just one of those things. So that's
[1:07:23] Speaker 1: kind of how I've developed my system. I know other channels,
[1:07:25] Speaker 1: like the Line, they only read super chats ten dours
[1:07:28] Speaker 1: and over. They don't even read ten dollars or nine
[1:07:31] Speaker 1: nine to nine and under. Like everybody has this system.
[1:07:34] Speaker 1: I'm still kind of working on my system. You're welcome
[1:07:37] Speaker 1: to give me feedback if you if you don't like it.
[1:07:40] Speaker 1: Cohoto says, long drive tomorrow, brother, I look forward to
[1:07:44] Speaker 1: getting some pretzels. Well, you are going to get some pretzels. Actually,
[1:07:47] Speaker 1: you're going to get some. They're coming up and the
[1:07:49] Speaker 1: una googleable man says. A priest, a rabbi, a blonde,
[1:07:52] Speaker 1: a lawyer, three clowns, a horse, a policeman, and Richard
[1:07:55] Speaker 1: Nixon all walk into a bar. Bartender looks around and says,
[1:07:59] Speaker 1: what's this kind of joke? I mean, I think so,
[1:08:04] Speaker 1: I think. I think that's the most apparent joke that
[1:08:09] Speaker 1: I can think of. I got two more super chats.
[1:08:12] Speaker 1: Mitch Murray, thank you for the one hundred dollars super chat,
[1:08:16] Speaker 1: Big big, big w Mitch. I really appreciate that. It's huge.
[1:08:21] Speaker 1: Thank you for supporting the channel. Mitch says, you are
[1:08:23] Speaker 1: the dog's bullocks. Justin look it up if you're not
[1:08:26] Speaker 1: familiar with the expression. I think it's similar to like
[1:08:29] Speaker 1: the cats mew. I hope it's a good thing, or
[1:08:32] Speaker 1: like the bee's knees. I'll have to look up the
[1:08:35] Speaker 1: dog's bullocks. But thank you for that, Mitch. I really
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: appreciate that. That's really huge. And last one from our
[1:08:41] Speaker 1: friend josh Joshua, thank you so much for the ten
[1:08:43] Speaker 1: dollar superchat. Justice is big. Congratch, I hope you grow
[1:08:46] Speaker 1: big and appreciate the thought in taking the Bible serious
[1:08:51] Speaker 1: leads to the absurd. I couldn't agree more. Taking the
[1:08:55] Speaker 1: Bible seriously will lead you to holding absurd ideas. Alright,
[1:09:00] Speaker 1: let's grab our next guest. I promised that a Trove
[1:09:03] Speaker 1: would be next, so let me grab Trobe from our
[1:09:07] Speaker 1: YouTube queue. Trove, are you still with us? Trove? Maybe proved?
[1:09:21] Speaker 1: I see your microphone and your camera are turned off.
[1:09:25] Speaker 1: You may or may not still be with us. Let
[1:09:29] Speaker 1: me see if you I mean, it shows you got
[1:09:32] Speaker 1: blue two headphones in, so I assume you can hear me.
[1:09:34] Speaker 1: If you've got blue two headphones in, I don't know
[1:09:36] Speaker 1: why they're while you're not here. All right, well, I'll
[1:09:40] Speaker 1: drop you down, come back if you want to get
[1:09:41] Speaker 1: up into the conversation. You know, welcome anytime. I think
[1:09:46] Speaker 1: Patristic was next, So let's grab the true uh Patristic
[1:09:51] Speaker 1: path good I do in Patristic? Well, Patristic? Are you
[1:10:02] Speaker 1: Orthodox or a Catholic? Cool? And are you at least eighteen?
[1:10:09] Speaker 9: Yes, sir?
[1:10:10] Speaker 1: Cool? And do you believe what's that?
[1:10:13] Speaker 9: Love the show? I said, A pleasure to speak to you,
[1:10:14] Speaker 9: but I love the show. It's actually quite entertane. Thanks,
[1:10:17] Speaker 9: I appreciate that.
[1:10:18] Speaker 1: Do you believe that God is all good? Mostly good,
[1:10:23] Speaker 1: maximally good, partially good?
[1:10:25] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[1:10:26] Speaker 1: Or you don't know he's good?
[1:10:27] Speaker 6: Yes? Yes, sir, I believe he's all good?
[1:10:29] Speaker 1: Okay? And do you believe then that all of what
[1:10:34] Speaker 1: he does is good?
[1:10:37] Speaker 6: Yes?
[1:10:39] Speaker 1: Okay, So there's nothing bad he could do? There's nothing
[1:10:44] Speaker 1: bad he could do? Then?
[1:10:47] Speaker 9: Definitionly no, because that would contry, that would be contradictory
[1:10:50] Speaker 9: to his nature, which is good.
[1:10:52] Speaker 1: Why would I accept that his nature entails goodness?
[1:10:56] Speaker 9: I'm saying from obviously from my perspective. If you want
[1:10:59] Speaker 9: me to argue that, I guess we could. But I
[1:11:00] Speaker 9: was just listening to you and explaining my perspective.
[1:11:02] Speaker 6: Brother.
[1:11:03] Speaker 1: No, no, I agree, That's why I was saying, like
[1:11:05] Speaker 1: I know from the Christian perspective, should want me to
[1:11:07] Speaker 1: argue it. Yeah, because first of all, you're Orthodox, which
[1:11:10] Speaker 1: means I already know that you are into philosophy because
[1:11:15] Speaker 1: like orthodox.
[1:11:17] Speaker 9: Philosophy will be used in the making of this video,
[1:11:19] Speaker 9: I promise.
[1:11:19] Speaker 1: Okay, So from done.
[1:11:21] Speaker 9: That before and then Big Dead Ean got called and
[1:11:24] Speaker 9: I got my pp slot. Oh, I probably should say
[1:11:25] Speaker 9: that I alive, so I will not do it again.
[1:11:28] Speaker 1: So I mean the question I would have then is
[1:11:30] Speaker 1: if you're me, like, if you're in my position, or
[1:11:34] Speaker 1: really anyone's position, why do we think that we should
[1:11:39] Speaker 1: or need to accept the idea that God is necessarily
[1:11:43] Speaker 1: good because it seems like God could just desire to
[1:11:46] Speaker 1: do bad things and we just have to accept that
[1:11:49] Speaker 1: as well.
[1:11:49] Speaker 9: Right, that is logically consistent, like when you're just arguing
[1:11:54] Speaker 9: I logically, however, again, it would be a contradictory, which
[1:11:56] Speaker 9: is nature from the Christian paradigm, so we would cause
[1:12:00] Speaker 9: that it is impossible for him to be evil for
[1:12:04] Speaker 9: that purpose because it's contrary was nature, and he cannot
[1:12:06] Speaker 9: be contradictory because he is not composite. He is not
[1:12:09] Speaker 9: made of multiple things, so to speak.
[1:12:12] Speaker 1: Well, no, that is the Christian doctrine. I agree with you.
[1:12:14] Speaker 1: According to Christianity, God's nature is good. I'm actually what
[1:12:19] Speaker 1: I'm doing is I'm pushing on that specific doctrine and
[1:12:22] Speaker 1: I'm asking. I know, like Christianity teaches that, but why
[1:12:26] Speaker 1: should one accept that? For example, like, what's the argument
[1:12:29] Speaker 1: for it? Yeah, because like the Greek gods, right, So
[1:12:32] Speaker 1: the Greek gods are like the Egyptian gods or even
[1:12:35] Speaker 1: the Ugaritic gods, there were some gods that were good,
[1:12:38] Speaker 1: and then there were some gods that were bad. It
[1:12:40] Speaker 1: doesn't it's not entirely clear to me that just because
[1:12:44] Speaker 1: you're a god you have to be good. I'm not
[1:12:46] Speaker 1: sure why that's the case, right.
[1:12:48] Speaker 9: Well, the reason okay, so the reason why is obviously
[1:12:52] Speaker 9: ultimately going to come down to divine revelation. Now, the
[1:12:54] Speaker 9: arguments therein would be essentially the way that he is
[1:12:58] Speaker 9: a god. Of example, he says multiple times the widow,
[1:13:03] Speaker 9: the weak, the innocent, the poor, so on and so forth.
[1:13:05] Speaker 9: So that's why, from our perspective, we would say that
[1:13:08] Speaker 9: he is a good God. Again, that's purely from the
[1:13:12] Speaker 9: humanistic perspective. Looking at his let's say, doings in the world,
[1:13:16] Speaker 9: his actions in the world, we could see that he
[1:13:20] Speaker 9: is the god of basically the weak. He's the God
[1:13:22] Speaker 9: of people who need help.
[1:13:23] Speaker 1: Okay, so the the goodness of God rests on like
[1:13:27] Speaker 1: an evidentiary foundation.
[1:13:30] Speaker 9: I don't believe so, But again I'm not gonna divve
[1:13:33] Speaker 9: like because again, this would have to be a super
[1:13:35] Speaker 9: internal system, which if I start bringing up Saint John Samascus,
[1:13:38] Speaker 9: You're probably not going to know half of it, which
[1:13:40] Speaker 9: is fine because you think it's Hueberish anyways. Yeah, so
[1:13:42] Speaker 9: it's pointless for me to bring that up. So I'm
[1:13:45] Speaker 9: saying from the I'm trying to talk about the biblical
[1:13:47] Speaker 9: worldview because it seems like that's what you're most familiar with.
[1:13:49] Speaker 9: So I'm trying to be like, obviously, if you start
[1:13:52] Speaker 9: talking about, you know, evolutionary biology, I'm going to be
[1:13:55] Speaker 9: in a disadvantage also, So I'm trying to say something
[1:13:58] Speaker 9: that we can both have a proveration was ultimately it
[1:14:01] Speaker 9: is a show, you know.
[1:14:02] Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, I mean, and I think that's
[1:14:04] Speaker 1: pretty it's a very charitable position to be in. So
[1:14:08] Speaker 1: like big w for that. I think there's a lot
[1:14:11] Speaker 1: of people who really know philosophy that want to come
[1:14:13] Speaker 1: up here and just use a bunch of big words
[1:14:15] Speaker 1: that nobody knows of. They sound smart, and that really
[1:14:18] Speaker 1: doesn't move a conversation forward, like even like most, like
[1:14:22] Speaker 1: most philosophical conversations, I can follow until you start using
[1:14:25] Speaker 1: the insider jargon and then like, why why am I
[1:14:28] Speaker 1: doing this? Right?
[1:14:30] Speaker 9: I agree? Yeah, no, I wear the same page rather okay,
[1:14:32] Speaker 9: So I just want to talk about the issue at hand,
[1:14:34] Speaker 9: like particularly the morality within the Old Testament, particularly.
[1:14:39] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[1:14:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, So if I asked you, then according to according
[1:14:44] Speaker 1: to the Bible, right, would a good God take delight
[1:14:50] Speaker 1: in harming or destroying wicked wicked people? Yes, yes he would,
[1:14:58] Speaker 1: he would take the light in that, we would.
[1:15:01] Speaker 9: Yeah, right. So, like there's multiple forms of justice from
[1:15:04] Speaker 9: the Western view. We have social justice, which is only
[1:15:07] Speaker 9: like a really recent thing, but it always has existed
[1:15:09] Speaker 9: of course. We have retributive justice justice, which is where
[1:15:12] Speaker 9: you know, a punishment is made according to the action.
[1:15:16] Speaker 6: And then we have.
[1:15:19] Speaker 9: Excuse me, we have punitive justice, which is what I
[1:15:21] Speaker 9: just described. And then we have retributive justice, which is
[1:15:23] Speaker 9: where we're replenishing what has been stolen. So that is
[1:15:26] Speaker 9: the three frameworks of justice we view it from. For
[1:15:29] Speaker 9: God justice, and in the Hebrew and the Old Testament
[1:15:31] Speaker 9: it's misfat. I can't pronounce it de neighbor, but myth
[1:15:34] Speaker 9: it's like and I, yes, there you go. Thank you
[1:15:36] Speaker 9: really appreciate that. So that form of justice, as also
[1:15:39] Speaker 9: described in other ancient oriastern traditions such as the ancient Egyptians,
[1:15:44] Speaker 9: is putting things back in their proper place. So to
[1:15:48] Speaker 9: put things back in a proper place is God's justice.
[1:15:50] Speaker 6: This is divine justice.
[1:15:52] Speaker 9: So if that requires a destruction of evil person, that
[1:15:55] Speaker 9: is totally and completely in line with good and even
[1:16:00] Speaker 9: I would argue we still do this today through forms like,
[1:16:02] Speaker 9: for an example, the death penalty. I think ninety nine
[1:16:05] Speaker 9: percent of atheist would agree that if the tiny mustache
[1:16:08] Speaker 9: man was alive, he should be put to an alignment
[1:16:11] Speaker 9: for an example. However, that's just one small example of
[1:16:15] Speaker 9: what's going on in the Old Testament tradition.
[1:16:18] Speaker 1: For morality, there's the couple words, so like like a
[1:16:23] Speaker 1: mitzvah would be like a command from God or a
[1:16:26] Speaker 1: command right yes.
[1:16:27] Speaker 9: It also means that yep, right, and there is a
[1:16:29] Speaker 9: judgment also yep right right.
[1:16:32] Speaker 1: And then there's miss let me see what if I
[1:16:36] Speaker 1: remember miss Pott, similar to.
[1:16:39] Speaker 9: Yes, right, Okay, that's what I'm speaking of, which is
[1:16:42] Speaker 9: again the frame of justice that is exegened in the
[1:16:46] Speaker 9: real Testament.
[1:16:47] Speaker 1: And it also kind of entails fairness right.
[1:16:51] Speaker 9: Absolutely, which is again why certain things need to happen
[1:16:54] Speaker 9: af from our view would be unjust, but in the
[1:16:56] Speaker 9: view of God is completely and absolutely tenable to the
[1:16:59] Speaker 9: position of him being good.
[1:17:00] Speaker 1: Right, Okay. So I started on this conversation asking if Jesus,
[1:17:06] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, if God takes delight in destroying the wicked.
[1:17:09] Speaker 1: And the reason why I asked that is because I
[1:17:12] Speaker 1: had an assumption that you would know that Ezekiel thirty three,
[1:17:15] Speaker 1: God says that I don't take any pleasure in the
[1:17:18] Speaker 1: destruction of the wicked.
[1:17:21] Speaker 9: Again, all of the biblical texts need to be within
[1:17:24] Speaker 9: the context which I've heard, I'm sure you've heard millions
[1:17:26] Speaker 9: of times. But this, the Ezeko thirty three again is
[1:17:31] Speaker 9: probably laid in within responsibility and accountability and all these
[1:17:36] Speaker 9: other things. And then you would have to say God's
[1:17:40] Speaker 9: rule of justice and mercy. So maybe this text is
[1:17:42] Speaker 9: saying this or that. Would you like to read it
[1:17:44] Speaker 9: in particular so I could maybe exaget it a little
[1:17:47] Speaker 9: bit better because I don't have the context. So this
[1:17:49] Speaker 9: it's been a while since I've read Ezekiel.
[1:17:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, So in Ezekiel thirty three, the command is given,
[1:17:55] Speaker 1: say to them as I live, says the Lord God.
[1:17:57] Speaker 1: I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,
[1:18:00] Speaker 1: but that the wicked turn from their ways and live.
[1:18:03] Speaker 1: Turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why
[1:18:08] Speaker 1: will you die a house of Israel. So it seems
[1:18:11] Speaker 1: like what he's suggesting is like, yeah, I don't want
[1:18:15] Speaker 1: to kill you. I don't want to bring discrection on you.
[1:18:18] Speaker 1: I would prefer for you to turn from your ways
[1:18:22] Speaker 1: because I don't actually take any pleasure in having to
[1:18:25] Speaker 1: destroy you.
[1:18:27] Speaker 9: Meaning okay, So this is a great example of how
[1:18:30] Speaker 9: we can further dispect what these words actually mean.
[1:18:33] Speaker 6: Because everything is tough related.
[1:18:34] Speaker 9: Right, So when I say pleasure in the context of
[1:18:37] Speaker 9: God takes pleasure in punishing people, meaning that he obviously
[1:18:40] Speaker 9: wants things to go back in this proper orientation, it's
[1:18:43] Speaker 9: proper justice, right, and so if that requires the instruction
[1:18:47] Speaker 9: of a person.
[1:18:47] Speaker 6: So be it.
[1:18:48] Speaker 9: However, like you've just read many many times, he warns
[1:18:52] Speaker 9: before he punishes, like for an example, and Jonah the
[1:18:55] Speaker 9: Canonie story, and so on and so forth. And then
[1:18:57] Speaker 9: when the you know, I think the biblical example is
[1:19:01] Speaker 9: when the cup of iniquity runeth over so to speak,
[1:19:04] Speaker 9: creating his view on it becomes to its point where
[1:19:08] Speaker 9: it's boiling over, so to speak, then he executes judgment.
[1:19:11] Speaker 9: So he gave humanity many many years to repent, for
[1:19:15] Speaker 9: an example, the way that they were living in Genesis,
[1:19:18] Speaker 9: but yet they didn't, and so then he punished them.
[1:19:20] Speaker 9: And in that scenario he would take pleasure in it,
[1:19:22] Speaker 9: not in the sense of you for a humanistic and
[1:19:25] Speaker 9: throw pomorphizing pleasure. Again, we have to understand that God
[1:19:29] Speaker 9: is outside of categories, but for the sake of speaking,
[1:19:32] Speaker 9: we have to utilize these human categories and try to
[1:19:35] Speaker 9: explain him a little bit better.
[1:19:37] Speaker 1: Sure, so, Ezekiel thirty three seems to be indicating that
[1:19:39] Speaker 1: when God has to destroy people, he does it because
[1:19:44] Speaker 1: he has to, not because he takes pleasure in it.
[1:19:47] Speaker 9: Again, God is not obligated to anything because God is
[1:19:50] Speaker 9: the obligator. God is outside of categories. He's the transcendental
[1:19:53] Speaker 9: one that holds all things together. So God doesn't have
[1:19:56] Speaker 9: to punish people, but it is in his will that
[1:19:59] Speaker 9: it is just people. Again, it's not desired, it's not preferred,
[1:20:03] Speaker 9: but it is necessary sometimes. And again the punishment, and
[1:20:06] Speaker 9: this is a really really big point that I don't
[1:20:08] Speaker 9: hear ben Christians talk about, is that God's punishment of
[1:20:11] Speaker 9: the wicked is mercy to the victims. Like, that's ultimately
[1:20:15] Speaker 9: what's going on in the punishment. It's not just arbitrary
[1:20:18] Speaker 9: angry God, let me kill this guy. It's like, no,
[1:20:20] Speaker 9: this guy has been raping and unliving XYZ people. Now
[1:20:24] Speaker 9: he deserves punishment so the other future victims can receive mercy.
[1:20:28] Speaker 9: That's what the Old Testament phrases it as multiple times.
[1:20:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, but does God take pleasure in bringing the wicked
[1:20:34] Speaker 1: to ruin.
[1:20:36] Speaker 9: Again, Yes, in context of already having had given them
[1:20:40] Speaker 9: an opportunity to repent, and if they continue and persist
[1:20:42] Speaker 9: in their sin, then yes, God takes pleasure in sending
[1:20:45] Speaker 9: things back in the property orientation, which is justice.
[1:20:48] Speaker 1: Okay, So Ezekiel is wrong.
[1:20:53] Speaker 6: Ezekiel's not wrong.
[1:20:54] Speaker 9: You're having a very literalistic Protestant like fundamental reading of
[1:20:57] Speaker 9: the text, where what it's saying, I understand that's that's
[1:21:02] Speaker 9: an easy way for us to say that. But again,
[1:21:04] Speaker 9: you have to take this in context of being an
[1:21:06] Speaker 9: ancient Eastern tradition, an ancient or Eastern language that is
[1:21:09] Speaker 9: not easily have no idea.
[1:21:11] Speaker 1: People just assume I don't know anything about the engineering. Still,
[1:21:14] Speaker 1: I'll never stand I don't know anything about it.
[1:21:17] Speaker 4: I'm not.
[1:21:17] Speaker 9: I'm not saying forgive me if that's how came off.
[1:21:19] Speaker 9: What I'm trying to say is you have to keep
[1:21:20] Speaker 9: that in context because if you, as you have understanding
[1:21:23] Speaker 9: of many things, if you have understanding of the n
[1:21:25] Speaker 9: ancient or Eastern tradition, a lot of this isn't meant
[1:21:27] Speaker 9: to be taken word for word dogmatically literally in the
[1:21:30] Speaker 9: sense that we do today, which is the fun of
[1:21:32] Speaker 9: met of lasion with the Protestants.
[1:21:34] Speaker 1: Which word in this verse is literal and which one
[1:21:37] Speaker 1: is not.
[1:21:39] Speaker 9: Again, it's not like there's a word that you can say,
[1:21:44] Speaker 9: this word in the Hebrew's language is literally, and this
[1:21:46] Speaker 9: word is is an allegory. What we're saying is that
[1:21:49] Speaker 9: within the context of the overarching narrative and the exegesis
[1:21:53] Speaker 9: of the authorities who have procured, protected, and condensed these texts. Right,
[1:22:00] Speaker 9: these people have explained these texts to us in a
[1:22:03] Speaker 9: way that is straightforward and easy to understand. I know
[1:22:06] Speaker 9: it might be crazy for you because you see the words.
[1:22:08] Speaker 9: He just puts a pleasure of death there.
[1:22:10] Speaker 1: What did the church fathers say about this? What do
[1:22:12] Speaker 1: they say about this passage?
[1:22:15] Speaker 9: For example, one of the top probles my head I
[1:22:18] Speaker 9: can think of is that by Saint Isaac Sirian says
[1:22:21] Speaker 9: that God is not the one who punishes evil for
[1:22:25] Speaker 9: evil necessarily, but he sets evil or right. So that's
[1:22:28] Speaker 9: the difference, is that he's not giving evil.
[1:22:30] Speaker 1: You know. What's to say about this passage specifically? Does
[1:22:33] Speaker 1: it say that God delights in the death of wicked
[1:22:36] Speaker 1: or not?
[1:22:39] Speaker 3: Uh?
[1:22:39] Speaker 9: I don't honestly, I haven't read Execu thirty three with
[1:22:43] Speaker 9: the church father's perspective on it. But again, the church
[1:22:45] Speaker 9: father's perspective is that the Bible is not contradictory. So
[1:22:49] Speaker 9: therefore I'm extajuting, asked, such, is that what's going on here?
[1:22:53] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[1:22:53] Speaker 13: Yeah?
[1:22:53] Speaker 6: Again?
[1:22:54] Speaker 1: And starting the point is that the Bible can't contradict himself, right,
[1:22:58] Speaker 1: So just to be clear, I'm not bringing this up
[1:23:02] Speaker 1: because it's a contradiction. It just happens to be a contradiction.
[1:23:06] Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to get your position, and it
[1:23:10] Speaker 1: sounds to me like what you're suggesting is that God
[1:23:14] Speaker 1: sometimes take pleasure in the depth of the wicked.
[1:23:18] Speaker 9: No, again, you're thinking of this as of like a law,
[1:23:21] Speaker 9: like God says if you do this, immediately a rock
[1:23:25] Speaker 9: will fall from the sky and you will be smite.
[1:23:27] Speaker 9: This is not what's going on. What's going on is
[1:23:29] Speaker 9: that there's a broader context of nuance, of situation, of mercy,
[1:23:34] Speaker 9: of justice. So in this scenario, Ezekiel is again I'd
[1:23:37] Speaker 9: have to read the entire few chapters leading up to this.
[1:23:40] Speaker 9: But God, for whatever reason, in this narrative is saying
[1:23:43] Speaker 9: that he takes no pleasure in the death of wicked,
[1:23:44] Speaker 9: which if I had to assume, if I had to assume,
[1:23:47] Speaker 9: just like the next couple of lines say they want
[1:23:50] Speaker 9: them to turn away from their sinfulness, and however that
[1:23:53] Speaker 9: doesn't mean. However, that doesn't mean that if they continue
[1:23:56] Speaker 9: in their sinfulness that he does not want to repay
[1:23:59] Speaker 9: them proper for what they have done.
[1:24:01] Speaker 1: I don't understand. No, idea. Why you keep adding stuff
[1:24:04] Speaker 1: to it. I didn't ask about whether or not God
[1:24:07] Speaker 1: wants to administer justice.
[1:24:11] Speaker 9: You're saying, does God take a pleasure in punishing people?
[1:24:14] Speaker 9: And I'm saying yes, in the context of that, he's
[1:24:16] Speaker 9: already given them opportunity to repent. That is completely logically sound.
[1:24:19] Speaker 9: We'll try this again, like that's a normal sentence.
[1:24:22] Speaker 1: Isn't it delight? No?
[1:24:23] Speaker 9: Fallacious?
[1:24:24] Speaker 1: Does it bring sorry pleasure to God to have to
[1:24:27] Speaker 1: kill people.
[1:24:31] Speaker 6: Again?
[1:24:31] Speaker 9: In the context yes, that caveat. They already have given
[1:24:36] Speaker 9: the opportunity to repent, and then they've rejected that repentance,
[1:24:39] Speaker 9: persisted in their sinfulness. Okay, as long as that you
[1:24:43] Speaker 9: can't you know what I mean. I don't try to
[1:24:44] Speaker 9: be suspectful, but that's really straightforward.
[1:24:46] Speaker 1: Actually, I don't think it is. I think it's hedging,
[1:24:48] Speaker 1: because you know that there's parts in the Bible where
[1:24:51] Speaker 1: God does say the opposite. It says in Deuteronomy twenty eight,
[1:24:55] Speaker 1: just as the Lord took delight in making you prosperous
[1:24:58] Speaker 1: and numerous, so the Lord will take delight bring you
[1:25:00] Speaker 1: to ruin and destruction. You shall be plucked off the
[1:25:04] Speaker 1: land that you're entering and so forth, and then we
[1:25:07] Speaker 1: get the whole narrative and you're going to eat your
[1:25:11] Speaker 1: children and can get cannibalized and all that stuff. Okay,
[1:25:14] Speaker 1: So the question remains, then would an all perfectly good
[1:25:18] Speaker 1: and loving father take delight in having to watch his
[1:25:22] Speaker 1: children get cannibalized and destroyed by an invading army?
[1:25:28] Speaker 9: And they again, you're answering. I can't pronounce it, but
[1:25:30] Speaker 9: you're making God and man right. So the feelings that
[1:25:33] Speaker 9: he experiences, we're describing them using human words because the
[1:25:37] Speaker 9: categories of God are transcendent, and outside of these categories
[1:25:41] Speaker 9: does God feeling in the sense God? Again, God is
[1:25:44] Speaker 9: outside of categories. So the feelings that God has no
[1:25:47] Speaker 9: truth fundamentally different than the feelings of humans.
[1:25:50] Speaker 1: God doesn't love us again, because God loves what's going on.
[1:25:56] Speaker 6: God loves.
[1:25:57] Speaker 9: But in a sense, what does it mean when God
[1:25:58] Speaker 9: loves of our lot of understanding? Again, we have parts
[1:26:02] Speaker 9: of that right.
[1:26:02] Speaker 1: But what does it mean?
[1:26:04] Speaker 9: Mercy?
[1:26:05] Speaker 1: What does it mean? What is it when it says
[1:26:07] Speaker 1: God love?
[1:26:09] Speaker 9: Part of the love is again a holistic view on
[1:26:13] Speaker 9: it is mercy, compassion, justice.
[1:26:17] Speaker 1: Ahead When when God says he loves something, When God
[1:26:20] Speaker 1: says he hates something. What does it mean If it
[1:26:22] Speaker 1: doesn't mean love and hate, what does it mean?
[1:26:25] Speaker 9: I just explained you didn't. I just said for an
[1:26:29] Speaker 9: example of mercy, compassion, those are all.
[1:26:32] Speaker 1: Mercy is a behavior, not an emotion.
[1:26:36] Speaker 9: Mercy comes from you loving something.
[1:26:40] Speaker 6: Them.
[1:26:40] Speaker 1: Okay, So a loving entity would be right, stay, a
[1:26:50] Speaker 1: loving entity would be merciful, not wrathful.
[1:26:55] Speaker 9: You're against yours. No, not necessarily, because you're presupposing that
[1:26:59] Speaker 9: wrath is as unloving. That's not necessarily true. There's times
[1:27:03] Speaker 9: where wrath is fully appropriate and it's the most loving
[1:27:06] Speaker 9: thing you can do in a situation.
[1:27:07] Speaker 1: Right.
[1:27:07] Speaker 9: For example, someone buks in your house to try to
[1:27:09] Speaker 9: underlive your children. Your wrath is love for your children.
[1:27:12] Speaker 1: Yeah. But do you take delight in bringing others to ruin?
[1:27:19] Speaker 6: Again? Yes, depending on the context, of course.
[1:27:22] Speaker 1: Okay. So God takes delight in bringing his own children to.
[1:27:26] Speaker 9: Ruin depending on the context, absolutely, okay.
[1:27:31] Speaker 1: And you think that it's good for entities to delight
[1:27:35] Speaker 1: in bringing their own children to ruin.
[1:27:39] Speaker 6: Yes, with the context.
[1:27:41] Speaker 9: You're trying to phrase this in a very dogmatic when
[1:27:44] Speaker 9: there's a shitload of context.
[1:27:45] Speaker 1: What context? What context makes it good? To find joy
[1:27:50] Speaker 1: in bringing your own children to.
[1:27:52] Speaker 9: Ruin, like, for an example, all of the Theophanic representations
[1:27:57] Speaker 9: of God in the Old Testament, where Christ is literally
[1:27:59] Speaker 9: standing with them and then they proceed to disobey him.
[1:28:02] Speaker 9: That is the sense in which if you saw God
[1:28:03] Speaker 9: and then proceed to disobey him, it would make sense
[1:28:06] Speaker 9: in being punished.
[1:28:07] Speaker 1: As perspect I don't think that that answers the question.
[1:28:10] Speaker 1: And what I'm asking is what would make delighting in
[1:28:15] Speaker 1: destroying your children a good thing? Because it seems like
[1:28:18] Speaker 1: if you're a loving, merciful, benevolent entity, you would only
[1:28:23] Speaker 1: do you would only dislike destroying your children.
[1:28:29] Speaker 9: Yes, with Again, what I'm trying to say is that
[1:28:33] Speaker 9: with the context, there is a way in which you
[1:28:38] Speaker 9: yourself could potentially prefer or let's say, enjoy or take
[1:28:44] Speaker 9: delight in destroying your children. It really defends in the contract.
[1:28:47] Speaker 9: If your child is tiny mustache man, you might just
[1:28:50] Speaker 9: want to, yeah, let's say, take away his life for
[1:28:53] Speaker 9: the sake of others being spared.
[1:28:55] Speaker 1: Do you have children or more right I do, indeed
[1:28:58] Speaker 1: I have two.
[1:28:59] Speaker 6: I prefer not to think about that.
[1:29:00] Speaker 1: Would would you ever take the light in uh destroying
[1:29:05] Speaker 1: one of them.
[1:29:07] Speaker 9: If my children was a mass murderer, a grapist, and
[1:29:10] Speaker 9: so on and so forth, that would be totally appropriate
[1:29:13] Speaker 9: in the sense where it is legally justifiable.
[1:29:15] Speaker 1: I said, what you would you take the light in it?
[1:29:21] Speaker 9: Yeah, but again, the issue with the way you're phrasing
[1:29:23] Speaker 9: all these is that you're making these a dogmatic Yes.
[1:29:25] Speaker 1: No, it's way more theory. I'm reading the Bible to you.
[1:29:30] Speaker 1: I'm reading the Bible to you. You don't like what
[1:29:32] Speaker 1: it says. The Bible says that God takes the light
[1:29:34] Speaker 1: and bringing his own children to ruin. I'm asking you,
[1:29:38] Speaker 1: as a good father, I presume you're a good father,
[1:29:40] Speaker 1: if there is anything your children could do where you
[1:29:42] Speaker 1: would find delight in bringing them to ruin.
[1:29:46] Speaker 9: Honestly, I'm not sure i'd have more time to think
[1:29:48] Speaker 9: about that from my perspective.
[1:29:49] Speaker 1: Right because I can tell you what, There's not a
[1:29:51] Speaker 1: single thing that my child could ever do, not in
[1:29:54] Speaker 1: a million years, where I would be delighted to bring
[1:29:58] Speaker 1: my child to ruin. In fact, even if my child
[1:30:00] Speaker 1: was like a mass on Aliver and I had to
[1:30:03] Speaker 1: I had to do what I had to do to
[1:30:05] Speaker 1: stop the killings, I wouldn't take delight in it. It
[1:30:07] Speaker 1: would it would grieve me to my core to have
[1:30:11] Speaker 1: to harm my own child, no matter how bad my
[1:30:13] Speaker 1: child was, which means this God that takes delight in
[1:30:17] Speaker 1: destroying his own children, and how this thing's evil.
[1:30:21] Speaker 9: Okay, Now, let's say there would be no delight in
[1:30:25] Speaker 9: understanding that no more death is going to be taking place,
[1:30:28] Speaker 9: no matter what. I would not be delightful. Death would
[1:30:30] Speaker 9: be taking place in the sense of your son being
[1:30:32] Speaker 9: a mass on a liver, for example. No, there would
[1:30:34] Speaker 9: be no delight in the fact that your son will
[1:30:37] Speaker 9: no longer be doing these things. That will not be delightful.
[1:30:39] Speaker 9: I understand the actual action will be very traumatic and whatnot.
[1:30:43] Speaker 9: But you would be like, okay, you know what. Like
[1:30:45] Speaker 9: let's say a few weeks later, when you actually calm down,
[1:30:48] Speaker 9: you'd be like, all right, you know what this was
[1:30:49] Speaker 9: for the greater good?
[1:30:50] Speaker 6: Like you're not. You would say no, I would not.
[1:30:52] Speaker 1: Confirm that I would not delight in it.
[1:30:56] Speaker 3: If you didn't answer my question. I'm asking if it's
[1:30:58] Speaker 3: for the greater good.
[1:30:59] Speaker 1: Ultimately, I never said anything about greater good. I'm talking
[1:31:01] Speaker 1: about taking delight in somebody that the passage greater good,
[1:31:04] Speaker 1: the passage has nothing to do with the greater good.
[1:31:08] Speaker 9: That's all of this context. Again, the higher biblical narrative
[1:31:11] Speaker 9: is for the greater good. Like that's ultimately the context
[1:31:13] Speaker 9: of it.
[1:31:14] Speaker 1: Yeah, but that misses the point. The question is whether
[1:31:16] Speaker 1: or not God takes delight in harming his own children.
[1:31:19] Speaker 1: That's what we're trying to figure out here. And it
[1:31:21] Speaker 1: sounds like he does.
[1:31:22] Speaker 6: And I answered that certain times I said yes, depending
[1:31:25] Speaker 6: on the context.
[1:31:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds evil.
[1:31:28] Speaker 9: Okay, that's totally fine. That's just a random like that's
[1:31:32] Speaker 9: substantiate that from a sense morally that if.
[1:31:35] Speaker 1: That's how you want to go, well, I think it's
[1:31:38] Speaker 1: just definitionally bad, right, depending on which of you come from.
[1:31:42] Speaker 1: So for example, like if your a nontheistic worldview, we
[1:31:47] Speaker 1: would just call harming people bad. I feel like we
[1:31:51] Speaker 1: can just kind of agree right now, taking delight in
[1:31:55] Speaker 1: harming somebody, even if it's necessary, Like if it's necessary
[1:31:58] Speaker 1: to harm an individual, then that becomes like morally necessary.
[1:32:02] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:32:03] Speaker 1: So if it's necessary to get rid of Hitler because
[1:32:06] Speaker 1: Hitler is going to do even worse things, that's one thing.
[1:32:10] Speaker 1: But taking delight in actually harming your own children is
[1:32:14] Speaker 1: separate from that, there's difference.
[1:32:18] Speaker 9: Okay, I get what you're saying. Do you understand what
[1:32:21] Speaker 9: I'm saying about how you're answer promortizing God. You're trying
[1:32:24] Speaker 9: to make his emotions akin to human's emotions, when the
[1:32:26] Speaker 9: reason why they're utilizing human words is so that we
[1:32:28] Speaker 9: can understand it. Obviously, it's not the one correlation of
[1:32:31] Speaker 9: his being.
[1:32:32] Speaker 1: Well, you can't tell me what they mean. You can't
[1:32:34] Speaker 1: tell me what they mean.
[1:32:35] Speaker 9: Just say multiple times, I can't tell you verbatim what
[1:32:38] Speaker 9: they mean, because no one knows God's does.
[1:32:40] Speaker 1: That's the problem, right, Like, I'm reading the words of
[1:32:42] Speaker 1: the Bible and I think they mean what they say. Right,
[1:32:44] Speaker 1: You're reading the Bibles and you're saying, these words can't
[1:32:47] Speaker 1: mean what they actually say, But I can't tell you
[1:32:50] Speaker 1: what they do mean. So if it says that God,
[1:32:53] Speaker 1: if it says that God takes delight and you can't
[1:32:56] Speaker 1: tell me what it means to take delight, then it's
[1:32:58] Speaker 1: a useless apologetic.
[1:33:02] Speaker 9: Okay, you want to redo the entire argument from the
[1:33:05] Speaker 9: beginning because I already explained this, but you didn't.
[1:33:07] Speaker 1: I asked you, on three different emotions of God, what
[1:33:10] Speaker 1: it means if it doesn't mean what it says, and
[1:33:12] Speaker 1: you couldn't tell me. So we'll try again. When it
[1:33:14] Speaker 1: says that God delights in something, what does it mean
[1:33:18] Speaker 1: to delight?
[1:33:21] Speaker 9: Again, the way that they're explaining delight is utilizing human turns.
[1:33:28] Speaker 1: I know, I know. I'm not asking you what you
[1:33:33] Speaker 1: think the text is answering. I'm asking you if it's
[1:33:37] Speaker 1: If delight doesn't mean delight, what does it mean. You're
[1:33:40] Speaker 1: telling me it does.
[1:33:41] Speaker 9: It doesn't mean delight. I'm saying it doesn't mean delight
[1:33:43] Speaker 9: in a sense, Then.
[1:33:44] Speaker 1: Tell me what it does mean. What does it mean
[1:33:47] Speaker 1: if it doesn't mean what it says?
[1:33:49] Speaker 6: For example, retribute of justice.
[1:33:53] Speaker 1: There's a word for that something which delight, retribute of justice.
[1:33:57] Speaker 1: You don't you don't need to separate a new word
[1:33:59] Speaker 1: for that. You already have those words. That's not an emotion, Okay,
[1:34:04] Speaker 1: So try again, if taking serious. If delighting doesn't mean delighting,
[1:34:10] Speaker 1: then it must mean something else. But it doesn't mean
[1:34:13] Speaker 1: retributive justice. We already have words for that.
[1:34:18] Speaker 9: No, But you delight when you see a murderer put
[1:34:20] Speaker 9: on trial and then be sent to jail for life,
[1:34:23] Speaker 9: But yet that thing that he went to I don't.
[1:34:26] Speaker 1: I do not delight I do I do not. I
[1:34:31] Speaker 1: do not delight in human beings having to suffer.
[1:34:35] Speaker 9: That's very interesting, even those who deserve to before the
[1:34:37] Speaker 9: actions that they've committed a ill.
[1:34:40] Speaker 1: There's not a single there's not a single person that's
[1:34:42] Speaker 1: ever been on death row that I would be delighted
[1:34:45] Speaker 1: to watch them die. I would be delighted. I would
[1:34:48] Speaker 1: be delighted if they hadn't done what they'd done. I
[1:34:51] Speaker 1: would be delighted that if they weren't evil individuals. That's
[1:34:55] Speaker 1: what I would be delighted in. When a single person
[1:34:58] Speaker 1: has to be punished, when a person it has to
[1:35:01] Speaker 1: be executed, I don't take delight in that suffering. It
[1:35:05] Speaker 1: pains me to my core, not only that they did
[1:35:07] Speaker 1: what they did, but now they have to receive the
[1:35:09] Speaker 1: punishment for that. Because that person has parents too. That
[1:35:12] Speaker 1: person is somebody else's child. Every child, whether they're small
[1:35:16] Speaker 1: or whether they're grown, when they experience pain, their family
[1:35:20] Speaker 1: members experience pain. I don't take delight in people having
[1:35:24] Speaker 1: to experience pain, even if they've caused other people of pain.
[1:35:30] Speaker 9: That makes sense, Yeah, but again we're we're I think
[1:35:34] Speaker 9: it's also disingenuous. At the same time to say that
[1:35:36] Speaker 9: we don't want and we don't actually appreciate when people
[1:35:40] Speaker 9: are punished, respectively for what they've done.
[1:35:43] Speaker 1: Desiring justice, I desiring justice is different than delighting in
[1:35:49] Speaker 1: somebody else being harmed.
[1:35:54] Speaker 9: Okay, I mean I get it. Well, I'm saying you, so,
[1:35:59] Speaker 9: if you desire to justice, and what would you describe
[1:36:02] Speaker 9: that emotion? So to speak to me once that justice
[1:36:05] Speaker 9: is distributed, would you just say you're completely apathetic towards
[1:36:09] Speaker 9: any sort of emotional reaction when someone is punished.
[1:36:12] Speaker 1: No, justice is not something. First of all, you're trying
[1:36:16] Speaker 1: to use justice as though justice is akin to somebody
[1:36:20] Speaker 1: being harmed by the punishment. But that's not it. You
[1:36:23] Speaker 1: can actually have two different emotions. You can say the
[1:36:26] Speaker 1: justice that this person received brings me relief that an
[1:36:30] Speaker 1: individual is receiving the justice that they deserve. However, the
[1:36:34] Speaker 1: punishment that this person is taking, the punishment they have
[1:36:37] Speaker 1: to receive, that brings me grief. That brings me dislike
[1:36:41] Speaker 1: I don't like that this happened. Right, And that's what
[1:36:44] Speaker 1: we're talking about. We're not talking about whether or not
[1:36:46] Speaker 1: God likes justice. We're talking about whether or not God
[1:36:51] Speaker 1: takes delight in harming people, and it says that he
[1:36:55] Speaker 1: does take delight in in harming.
[1:36:58] Speaker 9: People, Right, God, what this takes pleasure in punishing people?
[1:37:03] Speaker 1: No, in destroying them and bringing them to ruin. In fact,
[1:37:06] Speaker 1: he laughs at them it because.
[1:37:08] Speaker 9: Let's yeah, let's say killing them, let's say destroy whatever
[1:37:10] Speaker 9: word you want to use.
[1:37:11] Speaker 6: Yes, God does do that. Do you understand what? I can?
[1:37:14] Speaker 13: You?
[1:37:14] Speaker 6: Can you repeat my argument about that?
[1:37:15] Speaker 3: Or no?
[1:37:16] Speaker 9: But what about how that is not contradictory for God
[1:37:21] Speaker 9: to say that he delights in the instruction, but at
[1:37:23] Speaker 9: the same time he wants them to repent beforehand. Did
[1:37:25] Speaker 9: you at least understand that or no?
[1:37:26] Speaker 6: That completely?
[1:37:27] Speaker 1: I did understand that. It has nothing to do with
[1:37:29] Speaker 1: the point I even brought up. I have no idea
[1:37:31] Speaker 1: why you have mentioned it, because we're literally entirely the
[1:37:39] Speaker 1: topic we're talking about is not whether or not individuals
[1:37:44] Speaker 1: deserve justice. What we're talking about is whether or not
[1:37:47] Speaker 1: it's good for a parent to delight in destroying their
[1:37:51] Speaker 1: own children.
[1:37:54] Speaker 9: Yes, and in this okay, So in that scenario, are
[1:37:57] Speaker 9: we using the parent to speak of God or you're
[1:38:01] Speaker 9: just saying generally speaking, parent is.
[1:38:04] Speaker 1: Like God being is God the father? Not the father.
[1:38:08] Speaker 9: God the father and the father. But I'm asking you,
[1:38:10] Speaker 9: are you talking about the fathership of God or are
[1:38:13] Speaker 9: you talking about fathership of a human being, which is
[1:38:15] Speaker 9: fundamentally different.
[1:38:17] Speaker 1: Uh, it's the same thing. Is if God is our
[1:38:19] Speaker 1: father and we're the daughter you were God, If we're
[1:38:23] Speaker 1: God's children, do God? Does God love us like children.
[1:38:28] Speaker 9: In the sense that we can understand?
[1:38:30] Speaker 6: Sure? Yes?
[1:38:31] Speaker 1: Okay. Is God's love for us greater than our love
[1:38:34] Speaker 1: for our children?
[1:38:36] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[1:38:37] Speaker 1: Okay. That means if God's love for us is greater
[1:38:40] Speaker 1: than the love that we have for children, then it's
[1:38:43] Speaker 1: really incompatible that God would find delight in bringing us
[1:38:47] Speaker 1: to ruin, since he loves us even greater than we
[1:38:49] Speaker 1: love our own children.
[1:38:51] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[1:38:52] Speaker 9: But you're presupposing that God's form, way and being in
[1:38:55] Speaker 9: love is the same exact as yours than.
[1:39:00] Speaker 1: Me what it is? You keep saying that when the
[1:39:02] Speaker 1: Bible says God has emotions, that those emotions aren't emotions,
[1:39:06] Speaker 1: but you can't tell me what they are.
[1:39:08] Speaker 9: God is outside of categories, which is what I'm trying to.
[1:39:10] Speaker 1: Say, and just saying that is just saying that is
[1:39:13] Speaker 1: a useless statement. If you can't tell me what that
[1:39:16] Speaker 1: word means. If all you can tell me is that
[1:39:19] Speaker 1: word doesn't mean what it means, you're giving a useless argument.
[1:39:24] Speaker 9: Sorry, okay, so bring up more specific. You're saying God's love,
[1:39:28] Speaker 9: What does that mean?
[1:39:29] Speaker 1: Definitively, it's it's a an action slash emotion. When the
[1:39:34] Speaker 1: Bible says God has an emotion, what does it mean?
[1:39:40] Speaker 9: It is an answer, it's basically God. Let me say
[1:39:43] Speaker 9: like this, it's basically God speaking in human terms.
[1:39:46] Speaker 1: I know that relate to stop. Just stop repeating yourself.
[1:39:53] Speaker 1: We know what anthropomorphization. No, I didn't. We know what
[1:39:58] Speaker 1: you can doing it. We know what anthropomorphizing is. We
[1:40:02] Speaker 1: get that.
[1:40:03] Speaker 6: Right.
[1:40:03] Speaker 1: All you're saying is these words don't mean what they
[1:40:07] Speaker 1: mean because of anthropomorphism. I get that. I understand what
[1:40:12] Speaker 1: you're saying. What I'm saying is that's a dumb argument
[1:40:16] Speaker 1: until you can tell me what they do mean. What
[1:40:20] Speaker 1: you're saying is they don't mean this because of.
[1:40:24] Speaker 4: X, Y, and Z.
[1:40:25] Speaker 1: Familiar I'm not asking you what you think they don't mean.
[1:40:29] Speaker 1: I'm asking you what they do mean.
[1:40:32] Speaker 9: Are you familiar with apathetic theology or no?
[1:40:36] Speaker 1: Actually that one?
[1:40:37] Speaker 6: No? Go ahead, okay, So.
[1:40:39] Speaker 9: The Orthodox this is probably where we're getting a big
[1:40:41] Speaker 9: misunders saying I apologize for not saying this way sooner.
[1:40:44] Speaker 9: So like one oh, one. Theology for Orthodox Christians is
[1:40:47] Speaker 9: that we do not speak positively on God's nature. We
[1:40:50] Speaker 9: speak negatively, which is apathetic. So for example, we don't
[1:40:53] Speaker 9: say the reason why I'm saying God is good in
[1:40:55] Speaker 9: this sentence is so that you can understand it. But
[1:40:57] Speaker 9: typically we would say God is in you, to God
[1:41:00] Speaker 9: is uncreated God, so on and so forth. That way,
[1:41:03] Speaker 9: we can categorize him not what he is, because what
[1:41:06] Speaker 9: he is is unknowable, because his essence is unknowable because
[1:41:08] Speaker 9: it's infinitely greater than us. So you don't know, but
[1:41:10] Speaker 9: we know I don't know if he's in a sense
[1:41:13] Speaker 9: that I don't know his essence in a way that
[1:41:15] Speaker 9: I can explain it. Okay, So I know that he
[1:41:17] Speaker 9: is not evil, which again, when we speak of it,
[1:41:20] Speaker 9: we could say he's good. But what that means for
[1:41:23] Speaker 9: a God that transcends all categories is fundamentally different. And
[1:41:27] Speaker 9: to ask me to explain what something that is transcendental
[1:41:29] Speaker 9: means is contradictory to the Orthodox theology of God, which
[1:41:34] Speaker 9: again is the oldest.
[1:41:36] Speaker 1: Then God is not good. If you can't make you
[1:41:40] Speaker 1: can't make positive claims about God. If we can only
[1:41:42] Speaker 1: make negative, negative claims about God, then I would to
[1:41:45] Speaker 1: say God is not good. We've been wrong.
[1:41:49] Speaker 9: That's great now again when we speak, we speak properly
[1:41:53] Speaker 9: in terms of what we can try to portray to
[1:41:55] Speaker 9: other people about God. But it is not basically all
[1:41:59] Speaker 9: incompass saying it's not the totality. It's not an inexhaustible
[1:42:04] Speaker 9: explanation of God like I can. I can explain fully
[1:42:08] Speaker 9: I don't know paper down through its molecular composition. However
[1:42:11] Speaker 9: I cannot do that with things of God. So it's
[1:42:15] Speaker 9: it's basically it's a negation. I mean literally apathetic and
[1:42:20] Speaker 9: Greek and means negation. So it's basically that, because God
[1:42:23] Speaker 9: is beyond human understanding and we cannot fully describe in
[1:42:26] Speaker 9: human language, we say what he's not rather than what
[1:42:29] Speaker 9: he is, which is one of the big fundamentalist understandings
[1:42:32] Speaker 9: with the way that we're reading the Bible, because we're
[1:42:35] Speaker 9: reading in a fundamental fundamentalist way.
[1:42:36] Speaker 1: When so you don't know what God is, the only
[1:42:39] Speaker 1: know that God is not.
[1:42:42] Speaker 9: I suppose so yes, for terms of his essence, Yes.
[1:42:44] Speaker 1: Okay, so you have no idea of God is good, then.
[1:42:48] Speaker 6: We know that God is not evil.
[1:42:50] Speaker 1: Oh we don't know that that.
[1:42:51] Speaker 9: Would lead us to assume no. No again apathetic meaning
[1:42:55] Speaker 9: we say it in negation.
[1:42:57] Speaker 1: So instead of saying, oh God, so give me the
[1:42:59] Speaker 1: argument for God not being evil.
[1:43:03] Speaker 9: The entire biblical narrative, I mean, you want me to
[1:43:05] Speaker 9: give one example.
[1:43:06] Speaker 1: I mean the entire biblical narrative. The entire biblical narrative
[1:43:11] Speaker 1: demonstrates that He is evil. Do you think that it's
[1:43:14] Speaker 1: it's ever? You think it's ever not evil to have? Like,
[1:43:20] Speaker 1: for example, if your wife committed adultery and then covered
[1:43:25] Speaker 1: it up, would it ever be not evil for God
[1:43:29] Speaker 1: to have you raped for her adultery crime?
[1:43:35] Speaker 9: So I'm curious about this. I'm not sure exactly what
[1:43:38] Speaker 9: you mean.
[1:43:39] Speaker 1: You're I mean, if your wife commits adultery, Your wife
[1:43:45] Speaker 1: commits adultery and then covers it up, and God comes
[1:43:49] Speaker 1: to administer justice, and as punishment, he decides that you're
[1:43:52] Speaker 1: going to get raped because of what your wife did.
[1:43:55] Speaker 1: Would that be good or bad? Or do we not know.
[1:44:00] Speaker 9: What? What's the context? Just like the last person.
[1:44:03] Speaker 1: Was saying, we gave you the context is an analogy?
[1:44:06] Speaker 3: Can I? Can? I? If you literally one second?
[1:44:09] Speaker 9: So one of the things you were talking about in
[1:44:11] Speaker 9: First Kings, for an example, there's no biblical story in
[1:44:14] Speaker 9: which God feeds on Mu's alliance for an instant mistake. Oh,
[1:44:17] Speaker 9: you're just a mischaracterization of the story. You're wrong, because
[1:44:20] Speaker 9: in One Kings thirteen it's a serious consequence for God
[1:44:24] Speaker 9: being heaven. Okay, go ahead, let's run through it.
[1:44:27] Speaker 1: So we'll do this after we get through with the
[1:44:30] Speaker 1: analogy that I'm laying down.
[1:44:31] Speaker 3: But it's the same thing where you're making a exclaims.
[1:44:33] Speaker 1: It's not stop running from it. So in the scenario
[1:44:36] Speaker 1: that I lay down, if your wife commits adultery and
[1:44:39] Speaker 1: then covers it up and God comes to administer punishments,
[1:44:43] Speaker 1: would it be justified as part of the punishment that
[1:44:46] Speaker 1: you get raped?
[1:44:48] Speaker 9: I would say that there is no story in the
[1:44:50] Speaker 9: Bible in which this happens.
[1:44:51] Speaker 1: I has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
[1:44:53] Speaker 1: I mean it does. But it sounds like it's because
[1:44:56] Speaker 1: you're trying to trap me. It sounds like not only
[1:44:58] Speaker 1: have you not read your Bible, it sounds like you're
[1:45:00] Speaker 1: you're terrified to answer the analogies. So just be clear.
[1:45:03] Speaker 1: Let me ask the chat because because everybody, because everybody
[1:45:08] Speaker 1: in the chat can actually answer this. Everybody in the chat.
[1:45:10] Speaker 1: If you think it would be evil to have an
[1:45:15] Speaker 1: individual raped as punishment for their spouse committing a sin
[1:45:19] Speaker 1: like adultree, just type evil in the chat. Let me
[1:45:22] Speaker 1: know what you think evil? A lot of evils, right,
[1:45:26] Speaker 1: It's really weird how like all these like terrible god
[1:45:31] Speaker 1: hating atheists can just say that that's kind of evil,
[1:45:33] Speaker 1: but you have to like quiver on it. Okay, have
[1:45:39] Speaker 1: you read the story of David.
[1:45:42] Speaker 6: In part YEP?
[1:45:44] Speaker 2: What was the.
[1:45:44] Speaker 1: Punishment for David's adultery with Beshiba?
[1:45:48] Speaker 6: His son died?
[1:45:49] Speaker 1: What else?
[1:45:52] Speaker 9: I believe one of his family members was actually like
[1:45:56] Speaker 9: you're saying, was great to say to remember now that
[1:45:57] Speaker 9: you mentioned it.
[1:45:58] Speaker 1: Ten of them, right, kind of them.
[1:46:01] Speaker 9: Oh, let's read this, let's do it.
[1:46:03] Speaker 1: God says does say. It's the Lord. I will raise
[1:46:04] Speaker 1: up trouble against you from within your own house, and
[1:46:07] Speaker 1: I will take your wives before your eyes and give
[1:46:08] Speaker 1: them to your neighbor. And you shall lie with your
[1:46:10] Speaker 1: wives in broad daylight. For you did it secretly, But
[1:46:13] Speaker 1: I will do this thing before all Israel in broad daylight.
[1:46:16] Speaker 1: And what happens later on in the Second Samuel. Do
[1:46:19] Speaker 1: you remember.
[1:46:21] Speaker 6: That's a very vague question, my friend.
[1:46:23] Speaker 1: I know. Absolom storms the palace because he's taking he's
[1:46:27] Speaker 1: running a coup against his father.
[1:46:29] Speaker 6: Ah.
[1:46:29] Speaker 1: Yes, takes control over the palace, takes ten of David's
[1:46:32] Speaker 1: wives up to the top of the palace and sleeps
[1:46:35] Speaker 1: with them in broad daylight as a display of force
[1:46:38] Speaker 1: over his father, declaring that he is now the new king.
[1:46:42] Speaker 1: And God, God orchestrated the whole thing, right, And you
[1:46:48] Speaker 1: think that was good? Evil in between?
[1:46:53] Speaker 9: Where can you show me where God justifies this? Are
[1:46:55] Speaker 9: you saying because it's in the Bible? God justifies it?
[1:46:57] Speaker 1: No, God causes it. He says, I will raise up
[1:46:59] Speaker 1: trouble against you from within your own house, and I
[1:47:02] Speaker 1: will take your wives before your eyes and give them
[1:47:04] Speaker 1: to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives
[1:47:06] Speaker 1: in broad daylight. For you did it secretly, But I
[1:47:09] Speaker 1: will do this thing before Israel. So God is literally, uh,
[1:47:15] Speaker 1: taking the onus on himself, saying I'm doing it.
[1:47:19] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[1:47:19] Speaker 9: This is the same way in which other passages in
[1:47:22] Speaker 9: the Old Testament are God not literally saying he's going
[1:47:25] Speaker 9: to come down of material and make this happen. But
[1:47:28] Speaker 9: then he's causing it natural consequence for what happens. Yeah,
[1:47:31] Speaker 9: and he also says that multiple times, like for example,
[1:47:33] Speaker 9: like you said, well, he's going to cause people to
[1:47:35] Speaker 9: eat their own babies. That's not exactly what it needs directly. Again,
[1:47:40] Speaker 9: you're reading in a funt of endless way, which is
[1:47:41] Speaker 9: very fo.
[1:47:41] Speaker 1: I certainly didn't do that. I read it in the
[1:47:44] Speaker 1: way that it's written. So both of the statements of
[1:47:47] Speaker 1: God and doing it says that when it says I
[1:47:50] Speaker 1: will take the Hebrew word lacraq here is in the
[1:47:53] Speaker 1: causitive Hebrew stem, which means the translation is perfectly spot on.
[1:47:57] Speaker 1: God says, I am causing your wives to be taken.
[1:48:03] Speaker 9: Okay. But again, like I'm trying to say.
[1:48:05] Speaker 1: So, did God cause this event to happen or not?
[1:48:08] Speaker 1: Because if he didn't cause it to happen, that means
[1:48:11] Speaker 1: it's not actually a punishment.
[1:48:13] Speaker 6: God did not.
[1:48:14] Speaker 9: No, No, So punishments can also happen from your natural cause.
[1:48:18] Speaker 1: But did God cause it?
[1:48:20] Speaker 9: God? God does not cause everything on the earth.
[1:48:24] Speaker 1: But did God say he's causing it?
[1:48:28] Speaker 9: In the sense of this narrative, yeah, of course.
[1:48:32] Speaker 1: Okay, So when the Bible says, when God says through Nathan,
[1:48:35] Speaker 1: that I am causing this thing to happen, give me
[1:48:38] Speaker 1: one reason why I should read that and think God's
[1:48:41] Speaker 1: not causing it to happen.
[1:48:43] Speaker 9: Because no one understood in the sense that you do
[1:48:45] Speaker 9: up until very recently.
[1:48:47] Speaker 1: Not even not even remotely true.
[1:48:50] Speaker 6: Okay, I'd like you to demonstrate.
[1:48:51] Speaker 1: That, Demonstrate what you made the claim. Demonstrate to me
[1:48:54] Speaker 1: that on a single person in the Jewish tradition or
[1:48:57] Speaker 1: in the Christian tradition understood God causing this to happen.
[1:49:01] Speaker 1: Isn't God causing to happen.
[1:49:04] Speaker 9: The majority of the patrictic karubas of the church.
[1:49:08] Speaker 1: Quotem.
[1:49:08] Speaker 9: I'd have to It'd have to immediately do the research
[1:49:11] Speaker 9: on it, but that would be a waste of time.
[1:49:13] Speaker 1: I don't think you've done the research on it.
[1:49:16] Speaker 9: I'm sure I have something adjacent to this, but this
[1:49:20] Speaker 9: quote directly no.
[1:49:22] Speaker 1: Okay, So I have no reason to believe that when
[1:49:25] Speaker 1: God says I'm causing something to happen, that it means
[1:49:28] Speaker 1: anything other than God causing something to happen. Anything beyond
[1:49:31] Speaker 1: that is just being dishonest and coping.
[1:49:35] Speaker 9: Okay, yeah, So again from the Orthodox Christian world we
[1:49:39] Speaker 9: understand it as a much broader term that we say
[1:49:42] Speaker 9: that this is the direct blessings and curses as described
[1:49:46] Speaker 9: in the Old Testament. So like God says, I will
[1:49:48] Speaker 9: make the X y Z thing happen, and typically that
[1:49:51] Speaker 9: is just the portally consequence of that person's actions. And
[1:49:56] Speaker 9: then example of people eating their kids for example, that
[1:49:59] Speaker 9: is directly poor who lives to their can't pronounce the
[1:50:02] Speaker 9: word I'm very stupid, correlative to the situation at.
[1:50:07] Speaker 6: Hand, which was.
[1:50:10] Speaker 9: The Babylonian siege of Jerusalem and then the Roman typical
[1:50:14] Speaker 9: destruction of seventy a d. This thing also occurred.
[1:50:20] Speaker 1: I didn't maybe I wasn't listening very well. I didn't
[1:50:22] Speaker 1: hear anything in there that addressed what I said.
[1:50:27] Speaker 9: Okay, so let's see if I can put in a
[1:50:32] Speaker 9: different way then. So the Orthodox Christian worldview posits that
[1:50:37] Speaker 9: these sort of passages aren't supposed to be read in isolation,
[1:50:41] Speaker 9: and they're also not supposed to be representing all of
[1:50:43] Speaker 9: the totality of the ultimate will of God. And they
[1:50:46] Speaker 9: have context. They have historical context, they have context for
[1:50:51] Speaker 9: the narrative of the story. They also have context for
[1:50:54] Speaker 9: the people who are directly receiving them. I read as
[1:50:57] Speaker 9: a black and white great, so to read it in
[1:50:59] Speaker 9: a black Waite sense is just not how the people
[1:51:02] Speaker 9: who received the text even read.
[1:51:04] Speaker 11: It themselves prove it.
[1:51:05] Speaker 9: And this is understood in the second time, I have
[1:51:09] Speaker 9: to pull out all the sources. That would kind of
[1:51:11] Speaker 9: be obnoxious for me to say primate to everything you say,
[1:51:14] Speaker 9: because then you'd have to pull out on the sources too,
[1:51:16] Speaker 9: which would waste everyone's time. If you really want me to,
[1:51:18] Speaker 9: I can take five minutes and find the sources for you.
[1:51:21] Speaker 9: I just think it's fucking silly because you don't do
[1:51:22] Speaker 9: that with anything else.
[1:51:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, can you find me? Also, don't you inconsistent? I
[1:51:26] Speaker 1: wouldn't use that language. That's not appropriate language according to
[1:51:29] Speaker 1: the New Testament. So yes, Ephesians and Colautions both tell
[1:51:33] Speaker 1: you how to do that.
[1:51:35] Speaker 6: That's great. I appreciate you telling me all about more version.
[1:51:38] Speaker 1: I'll let you know. Don't worry, I'm actually training in it. Okay.
[1:51:41] Speaker 1: So it sounds to me that you don't have an
[1:51:43] Speaker 1: actual argument for why God saying I'm going to do
[1:51:46] Speaker 1: something doesn't mean he's going to do it, which is fine.
[1:51:49] Speaker 1: But I think the conversation has gone long enough. Now
[1:51:51] Speaker 1: it's about forty one minutes and we've got people waiting
[1:51:53] Speaker 1: to get in. But thanks for coming by again.
[1:51:55] Speaker 9: All right, brother pleasure talking. You have a great night.
[1:52:00] Speaker 1: Crazy at having to be that dishonest. I'll never understand it.
[1:52:07] Speaker 1: I'll never understand it. I don't know why they can't
[1:52:10] Speaker 1: just be honest. An honest person would say, yeah, that's
[1:52:12] Speaker 1: pretty horrific. Yeah, you. I mean, alternatively, you could just
[1:52:16] Speaker 1: say it doesn't mean what it means. But if that's
[1:52:19] Speaker 1: the case, you have to tell me what it does mean.
[1:52:21] Speaker 1: Like if somebody said to me something doesn't mean what
[1:52:24] Speaker 1: it means, that's a useless statement unless you can tell
[1:52:28] Speaker 1: me exactly what it does mean. Because I can say
[1:52:31] Speaker 1: that all day and say, what that doesn't mean, what
[1:52:32] Speaker 1: it means? What the fuck does it mean? Okay, Meg,
[1:52:36] Speaker 1: thank you for the ten Dour Superta Make says, why
[1:52:38] Speaker 1: does God tell Abraham that there would be a covenant,
[1:52:40] Speaker 1: tell him what to do and then enslave his descendants
[1:52:43] Speaker 1: four hundred years? He puts them to sleep and then
[1:52:46] Speaker 1: punishes them. Okay, So I mean there's a lot of
[1:52:48] Speaker 1: debate as to why God sent the Israelites into slavery
[1:52:53] Speaker 1: in Egypt in Genesis fifteen states because the sins of
[1:52:58] Speaker 1: the Amorites have not been complete. But that's not a
[1:53:00] Speaker 1: good excuse. Ezekiel does the apologetics on this. If you
[1:53:04] Speaker 1: read Ezekiel, Ezekiel paints the Israelites as being like wicked
[1:53:11] Speaker 1: or evil while they were in Egypt, and is kind
[1:53:15] Speaker 1: of like painting them as like, well, they deserve to
[1:53:17] Speaker 1: be enslaved because once they got there, they fell away
[1:53:20] Speaker 1: into idolatry. Right, So if you believe in the in
[1:53:23] Speaker 1: the Bible, that's kind of the biblical answer for the
[1:53:25] Speaker 1: enslavement in Egypt. And make says, why wasn't Abraham punished
[1:53:29] Speaker 1: for lying about Sarah being his sister? Like go to
[1:53:32] Speaker 1: help punishment? Well, so that's the thing is technically the
[1:53:36] Speaker 1: Bible justifies it because it was his half sister, and
[1:53:39] Speaker 1: it says that later on, right says, he wasn't technically
[1:53:41] Speaker 1: lying because it's his half sister. But the reality is
[1:53:44] Speaker 1: he is trying to deceive somebody. The deception is we
[1:53:49] Speaker 1: can't let them know that you are my wife. Right,
[1:53:52] Speaker 1: So it's like a sin of omission, a live omission,
[1:53:55] Speaker 1: you know, Carnage says, I'm so pumped to find out
[1:53:59] Speaker 1: that feeling like I've got really good reason to lie
[1:54:02] Speaker 1: means it simply doesn't count. Actually, that's a that's such
[1:54:06] Speaker 1: a good point. Like as long as you have justification
[1:54:09] Speaker 1: to lie, that means it's not a lie. Like the
[1:54:12] Speaker 1: definitions don't mean anything anymore. This very good point. Good
[1:54:15] Speaker 1: to see A carnage. Handsome Cat says, wouldn't the omniscient,
[1:54:18] Speaker 1: omnipotent but all good God be irrational and refute tag
[1:54:22] Speaker 1: anyways from the start? And isn't Yahweh just basically a
[1:54:27] Speaker 1: pagan god? I mean, Handsome we Yahweh is a pagan
[1:54:30] Speaker 1: god that was imported into this culture. I agree. But yeah,
[1:54:35] Speaker 1: like the omnistion, the omni good. Yeah, the omnient God
[1:54:39] Speaker 1: is is is a crazy god. But if you do
[1:54:43] Speaker 1: believe in an Omnigod, I still don't believe that the
[1:54:47] Speaker 1: omni benevolent is necessary. I think that's one piece of
[1:54:51] Speaker 1: Omni that is only there because Christians add that to
[1:54:55] Speaker 1: the definition of God because they want it there. Acnro says, question,
[1:54:58] Speaker 1: what do you get when you cross a jo over
[1:55:00] Speaker 1: witness and a Unitarian Universalist A door, a door to
[1:55:05] Speaker 1: door evangelist with nothing to talk about. I love it.
[1:55:08] Speaker 1: I love it. I made a universalist meme a long
[1:55:13] Speaker 1: time ago and people hated it where it was like
[1:55:17] Speaker 1: a clip from that movie where the Rock is talking
[1:55:20] Speaker 1: to what's that short comedian's name, Kevin Hart, and it's
[1:55:25] Speaker 1: it's that movie where he's like, I got a question
[1:55:29] Speaker 1: for you, and he's like, are you in or are
[1:55:31] Speaker 1: you out? And the Rock is like, Kevin's like in
[1:55:34] Speaker 1: or out of? What what are you talking about? He's like,
[1:55:35] Speaker 1: are you in or are you out? And he's like,
[1:55:38] Speaker 1: fuck it, I'm out and he's like, nope, too late,
[1:55:40] Speaker 1: You're already in. He's like, well, why the fuck did
[1:55:42] Speaker 1: he ask me? And people hated it. I don't know why.
[1:55:45] Speaker 1: I thought it was hilarious, but that's like universalism, like
[1:55:48] Speaker 1: are you in or you're out? It's like, well, too bad,
[1:55:50] Speaker 1: you're already in. Well if I'm already in, what the
[1:55:53] Speaker 1: fuck's all this Jesus nonsense for preaching to the world?
[1:55:56] Speaker 1: Master Micheider says Pretzels will start tonight, hoping to end
[1:55:59] Speaker 1: with some good bye thank you please send a bleasing
[1:56:01] Speaker 1: aroma my way doing it. We are listen, We're on it.
[1:56:06] Speaker 1: We're doing it, Jim says Christian Sizzlin is my favorite
[1:56:10] Speaker 1: new sound, more pleasing than a fatty steak. Praise Doug
[1:56:14] Speaker 1: and Happy Friday. You're the new end boss, Hey, thank you.
[1:56:18] Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I don't know if I am the
[1:56:19] Speaker 1: new end boss, but I'm having a good time. And Chip,
[1:56:22] Speaker 1: thank you for the super test, says I take back
[1:56:24] Speaker 1: the reasonable part about this, philbro The words don't mean
[1:56:27] Speaker 1: words because context that I don't actually know just broke
[1:56:31] Speaker 1: my irony meter rock hard for Doug. I know the
[1:56:34] Speaker 1: lies like you, the continuous lies. You have to tell
[1:56:37] Speaker 1: yourself to stay in this thing a while. Design coming
[1:56:40] Speaker 1: in again, says crawler is such a nice touch. Hope
[1:56:44] Speaker 1: to see it breaking news on Live. Pretzel Pritz of Pretzel.
[1:56:48] Speaker 1: Thank you. Design. So, if you're not watching on the
[1:56:50] Speaker 1: horizontal stream, I added a text crawler to the bottom
[1:56:53] Speaker 1: of the screen. I don't know where to put it
[1:56:55] Speaker 1: on the vertical stream yet, but I'm gonna do it.
[1:56:58] Speaker 1: It's just got useful information on it. I'll probably be
[1:57:01] Speaker 1: updating it for each Live, but yeah, I'm glad somebody
[1:57:07] Speaker 1: liked it. Design Atlas says he's making a great case
[1:57:10] Speaker 1: for a psychopathic god taking delight and bringing your children
[1:57:13] Speaker 1: too ruined. Yuck. I agree. I could not imagine a
[1:57:17] Speaker 1: case where a good parent takes delight in destroying their
[1:57:21] Speaker 1: own child. What a weirdo. Larry Beck, thank you for
[1:57:24] Speaker 1: the ten dollars, super chat, I really appreciate that friend,
[1:57:27] Speaker 1: super super thanks. And TG Querti thank you, says I
[1:57:31] Speaker 1: think contributing to the stream is delightful, but apparently we
[1:57:34] Speaker 1: can't agree what delightful means anymore. I know, listen, I
[1:57:38] Speaker 1: can't tell you what it means. I can only tell
[1:57:40] Speaker 1: you what it doesn't mean, and it doesn't mean delightful.
[1:57:43] Speaker 1: Necro says, well that guy ortho orthodox, Yeah he was.
[1:57:46] Speaker 1: You can tell. You can always tell who the Orthor
[1:57:48] Speaker 1: bros Are. And Jean says, why do Christians always forget
[1:57:51] Speaker 1: their God his powers? If I were determined to punish
[1:57:54] Speaker 1: David as he was, I could make him live it
[1:57:58] Speaker 1: Mark's Matrix style without anyone getting hurt for real weak
[1:58:02] Speaker 1: sauce creativity. I know, if God was all powerful, the
[1:58:05] Speaker 1: wives never have to get harmed. Like that's just not necessary, right,
[1:58:10] Speaker 1: And Jack says, I watched your debate against Wi Fi
[1:58:12] Speaker 1: gospel last night. I'm sorry to hear that. He that
[1:58:15] Speaker 1: was a waste of time. He was the most dishonest
[1:58:17] Speaker 1: and annoying person I've ever seen. Good job taking him down.
[1:58:20] Speaker 1: Praise Doug, what thank you Jack. I appreciate that. Yeah,
[1:58:23] Speaker 1: that was a waste of a debate. I was sad
[1:58:25] Speaker 1: because he challenged me. He was the one that picked
[1:58:28] Speaker 1: a debate topic. So I was like, Fuck, somebody wants
[1:58:30] Speaker 1: to debate me on the prophecies, let's go. And then
[1:58:33] Speaker 1: he got there and prese up the whole way like
[1:58:35] Speaker 1: you are you? Are you sick? What's wrong with you?
[1:58:39] Speaker 1: Abraham the child Dean? And thank you for the supertest
[1:58:41] Speaker 1: is justin. You need to take the totality of the
[1:58:43] Speaker 1: text in mind. You can't just read the words unless
[1:58:46] Speaker 1: it fits their agenda, in which case God is not
[1:58:48] Speaker 1: the author of confusion. I know, listen, the words never
[1:58:51] Speaker 1: mean what words mean unless I like what the words mean.
[1:58:55] Speaker 1: That's when the words mean what they mean. Or I
[1:58:57] Speaker 1: got three more super chats and then we get our
[1:58:59] Speaker 1: guests here an shame says Jesus loves me this, I know,
[1:59:02] Speaker 1: But my Wi Fi signal is still too low. Miracles
[1:59:05] Speaker 1: don't fix cable bro, so I stream justin Nis and slow.
[1:59:09] Speaker 1: I love it. I really appreciate that. That's the good
[1:59:11] Speaker 1: use of words. That is a great use of words. Also,
[1:59:14] Speaker 1: ditch broadband, get fibers cheap now. Space Lord says, true Patrician.
[1:59:19] Speaker 1: If we can't describe something using human concepts, what concepts
[1:59:23] Speaker 1: can we use? Jellyfish concepts? Cop out city? I agree,
[1:59:28] Speaker 1: I agree. This is a cop out bothel Guy says
[1:59:32] Speaker 1: suffering is good because we deserve it for reasons. I
[1:59:34] Speaker 1: can't possibly ever verbalize every Christian talking about morality. I know,
[1:59:40] Speaker 1: I know. And Elton, thank you for gifting out twenty
[1:59:44] Speaker 1: DZ debate memberships. I super appreciate that, el Teine. That's
[1:59:48] Speaker 1: super kind, super generous, and I super appreciate it. All right,
[1:59:51] Speaker 1: let's get our next guest in here. I think g eight.
[1:59:55] Speaker 1: Jat was next in line from the YouTube. Qu Jat Miko.
[2:00:00] Speaker 1: I get that right, is it? Jat Miko? Yeah? Are
[2:00:06] Speaker 1: you with us still?
[2:00:08] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[2:00:08] Speaker 1: Was waiting for a while, so I don't really know
[2:00:09] Speaker 1: if Jad is still with us anything not so much.
[2:00:17] Speaker 1: He has a microphone plugged in. Oh well, oh well,
[2:00:23] Speaker 1: move on to the next The next looks like it's
[2:00:26] Speaker 1: going to be TK by this again. How are you doing? TK?
[2:00:31] Speaker 3: Hi?
[2:00:31] Speaker 11: What's up?
[2:00:32] Speaker 1: How you doing?
[2:00:35] Speaker 11: I'm good, A little frustrated listening to you, but I'm good.
[2:00:39] Speaker 1: Get that.
[2:00:39] Speaker 11: What's frustrating that you're a militant atheist?
[2:00:43] Speaker 4: Ah?
[2:00:44] Speaker 1: That hurt your fiefees?
[2:00:46] Speaker 11: No, it's just annoying.
[2:00:48] Speaker 1: It's annoying that I'm making good points and you can't
[2:00:51] Speaker 1: rebut them.
[2:00:53] Speaker 11: The topic is God is good, and I find your
[2:00:56] Speaker 11: straw manning a lot cool.
[2:00:59] Speaker 1: So I assume you're Christian and you think God is good?
[2:01:02] Speaker 11: Yes?
[2:01:03] Speaker 1: What do you think a straw man is?
[2:01:05] Speaker 11: Before we start? I have an echo? Why is there
[2:01:10] Speaker 11: an echo on the platform you're using? Than this? Ninja?
[2:01:17] Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you.
[2:01:21] Speaker 11: I have YouTube closed.
[2:01:24] Speaker 1: I couldn't tell him.
[2:01:29] Speaker 11: Well, that's annoying too, Okay, you're don't have to just
[2:01:34] Speaker 11: deal with it.
[2:01:35] Speaker 1: Sounds terrible, doesn't it?
[2:01:37] Speaker 11: Having an echo? Yeah, it's awful, and that is awful.
[2:01:41] Speaker 1: Okay. So I assume that you believe God is all good? Right?
[2:01:49] Speaker 11: Yes?
[2:01:50] Speaker 6: Okay?
[2:01:51] Speaker 1: Do you think that by extension with God being all good,
[2:01:53] Speaker 1: that means that everything he does is good?
[2:01:58] Speaker 11: I believe that living is good by this again.
[2:02:07] Speaker 1: Do you think, by extension of God being good, that
[2:02:09] Speaker 1: all of his actions then are inherently good?
[2:02:13] Speaker 11: Okay, I'll just play by your rules, then, sure.
[2:02:16] Speaker 1: Meban answering questions honestly, Yeah, I would hope. So okay,
[2:02:20] Speaker 1: So you believe then that all of God's actions are
[2:02:22] Speaker 1: inherently good because God is good and God can't do
[2:02:25] Speaker 1: bad things.
[2:02:28] Speaker 11: I didn't say that last part.
[2:02:30] Speaker 1: Oh, do you believe that God can do bad things?
[2:02:34] Speaker 11: I believe that God is the source of all that
[2:02:37] Speaker 11: is good. There are bad things in the world, but
[2:02:39] Speaker 11: I don't know if God creates them. I know that
[2:02:42] Speaker 11: God allows for bad things to happen.
[2:02:47] Speaker 1: Right, But my question was can God do bad things?
[2:02:53] Speaker 11: Yes?
[2:02:55] Speaker 1: Okay, so God's only a percentage good, He's some percentage bad.
[2:03:02] Speaker 1: So he's good, but he can do bad things.
[2:03:05] Speaker 11: No, So when we say God is good, he is
[2:03:07] Speaker 11: the ultimate source for anything.
[2:03:10] Speaker 6: That is good.
[2:03:11] Speaker 1: Try this again.
[2:03:12] Speaker 11: So without God there cannot be any good.
[2:03:15] Speaker 1: We'll try this again. Okay. So if God is all
[2:03:17] Speaker 1: good and he can't do well, you just said he
[2:03:20] Speaker 1: can do bad. If God is doing both good and bad,
[2:03:25] Speaker 1: that means God is not all good. If I said
[2:03:29] Speaker 1: I was all good, but then I went around hurting
[2:03:31] Speaker 1: other people needlessly. You would say, well, that guy's not
[2:03:34] Speaker 1: all good because he's doing this bad stuff.
[2:03:37] Speaker 11: No, you're straw manning me.
[2:03:41] Speaker 1: Can God do bad? Yes or no? I said yes, okay,
[2:03:45] Speaker 1: So if you can do bad, that means you're not
[2:03:48] Speaker 1: one hundred percent good because you're doing something bad.
[2:03:52] Speaker 11: That's a fallacy.
[2:03:53] Speaker 1: That's not a fallacy. Which fallacy is it? Yeah? What? Yeah?
[2:03:56] Speaker 11: It's a straw man because what did I say.
[2:03:58] Speaker 1: That I didn't? That was I wasn't repeating your position.
[2:04:02] Speaker 1: I was giving you the problem with your position.
[2:04:05] Speaker 11: No, No, no, because I laid it out very clearly definitional
[2:04:08] Speaker 11: in the definition. Yeah, okay, I said God is the
[2:04:11] Speaker 11: ultimate source for anything that is good. Okay, And then
[2:04:16] Speaker 11: you say that, oh, well, God is not good because
[2:04:19] Speaker 11: he does bad things?
[2:04:21] Speaker 1: Is he the source of bad?
[2:04:22] Speaker 6: Said?
[2:04:26] Speaker 11: It doesn't say that.
[2:04:26] Speaker 6: I'm not sure.
[2:04:28] Speaker 1: Does he do bad things?
[2:04:29] Speaker 11: He allows for bad things to happen.
[2:04:32] Speaker 1: Does he do bad things?
[2:04:34] Speaker 11: I'm not sure. It says that he allows four bad
[2:04:37] Speaker 11: things to happen.
[2:04:38] Speaker 1: It's not my question. My question is does he do
[2:04:40] Speaker 1: bad things. Satan is understood to be the one that
[2:04:44] Speaker 1: does the bad things. Okay, So God does not do
[2:04:46] Speaker 1: bad things.
[2:04:48] Speaker 11: I didn't say that either.
[2:04:49] Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out if God doesn't doesn't.
[2:04:51] Speaker 1: It sounds like you're confused about whether or not God
[2:04:53] Speaker 1: does bad things.
[2:04:55] Speaker 11: I'm not confused.
[2:04:56] Speaker 1: Okay, then give me the answer. Does God do bad things?
[2:05:01] Speaker 1: It doesn't say that he does bad things. I didn't
[2:05:03] Speaker 1: ask you if anything said. I'm asking you, in your opinion,
[2:05:08] Speaker 1: does God do bad things?
[2:05:11] Speaker 11: No? I don't think, so.
[2:05:13] Speaker 1: Justify it, tray that you could just say no, Okay.
[2:05:18] Speaker 1: I never understand why I have to get their run
[2:05:20] Speaker 1: around from people just to give me their opinion. I'm
[2:05:22] Speaker 1: asking your opinion, in your opinion, does God do bad things?
[2:05:25] Speaker 1: You could have just said no.
[2:05:29] Speaker 11: Yeah, but you asked me a bunch of questions, so
[2:05:31] Speaker 11: I just had to focus in on exactly what you
[2:05:34] Speaker 11: were getting at.
[2:05:35] Speaker 1: Focusing is tough, okay. So either way, we finally came
[2:05:38] Speaker 1: to a conclusion, which you don't think that God does
[2:05:41] Speaker 1: bad things, which brings us back to the beginning of
[2:05:45] Speaker 1: the discussion, which is, then you do believe that God
[2:05:47] Speaker 1: is all good, don't you? If God doesn't do any
[2:05:49] Speaker 1: bad things, he only does good things, then in fact,
[2:05:53] Speaker 1: He is just all good. Right.
[2:05:57] Speaker 11: God is the ultimate source for anything that is good.
[2:06:04] Speaker 1: I ask you, if God is all good and you
[2:06:07] Speaker 1: agree with that, I don't know why you don't just
[2:06:09] Speaker 1: say yes.
[2:06:10] Speaker 11: They're very weird questions.
[2:06:12] Speaker 1: They're not weird questions. All right, we'll make it easy.
[2:06:19] Speaker 1: If I gave my child permission to make slaves of
[2:06:25] Speaker 1: people that he goes to school with, that a good
[2:06:29] Speaker 1: thing or a bad thing?
[2:06:38] Speaker 11: Yeah, it's obviously bad.
[2:06:39] Speaker 1: Why because you don't have that authority? Okay, So slavery
[2:06:47] Speaker 1: is good as long as you have high authority.
[2:06:52] Speaker 11: It depends on if they're bad people.
[2:06:54] Speaker 1: Okay, So we can enslave bad people if we have
[2:06:57] Speaker 1: enough authority. Yes, so slavery is not inherently bad. Right,
[2:07:04] Speaker 1: So what was wrong with the Transatlantic slave trade?
[2:07:11] Speaker 11: I don't know what you're talking about.
[2:07:12] Speaker 1: Do you think the Transatlantic slave trade was bad?
[2:07:15] Speaker 11: I don't. I don't know what that is.
[2:07:18] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you don't know what the Transatlantic slave trade was? Nope?
[2:07:24] Speaker 1: Did you finish high school?
[2:07:27] Speaker 11: Yeah?
[2:07:35] Speaker 1: Okay, well you're not equipped for this. If you don't
[2:07:37] Speaker 1: know what the Translantic slave trade is, you're in the
[2:07:39] Speaker 1: wrong place, buddy. I don't I don't. I refuse to
[2:07:45] Speaker 1: believe there's a person up here that doesn't know what
[2:07:48] Speaker 1: that is. He he just didn't want to finish the
[2:07:52] Speaker 1: discussion because he I guarantee his position is that there
[2:07:56] Speaker 1: was nothing wrong with him. Jamie says, I've heard precisely
[2:08:00] Speaker 1: these zero reasons to think a god is even possible.
[2:08:02] Speaker 1: Come ontheus up your game? Will you? They're not going
[2:08:05] Speaker 1: to They're not going to do that. They're not going
[2:08:07] Speaker 1: to up their game. Billo says, we can't know God,
[2:08:11] Speaker 1: proceeds to tell us all of God's attributed. Ton't that
[2:08:14] Speaker 1: we can't know God, but I'm going to tell you
[2:08:16] Speaker 1: exactly what he's not. Weird. Author Jack says, was yahweh
[2:08:21] Speaker 1: a pagan god or pagan god? He was a listen,
[2:08:27] Speaker 1: I think there's pagan up there. I think there's some
[2:08:29] Speaker 1: pagan in heaven. Also, those who came from the Christina
[2:08:33] Speaker 1: Raid welcome in. Thank you so much for being here. Sorry,
[2:08:35] Speaker 1: I was kind of in the middle of a discussion
[2:08:36] Speaker 1: when you all came in. But w Christina Carroll, if
[2:08:39] Speaker 1: you're not following Christina Carroll on TikTok yet, what are
[2:08:42] Speaker 1: you waiting for? And Jennifer thank you for all the
[2:08:45] Speaker 1: love paint on TikTok. I really appreciate that. It's a
[2:08:49] Speaker 1: big W. All right, I'm gonna read one more a
[2:08:52] Speaker 1: super jet. We'll get our next guest and here. Robin says,
[2:08:54] Speaker 1: I asked God for a bike, but I knew God
[2:08:56] Speaker 1: doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and
[2:08:58] Speaker 1: asked God for forgiveness, right hard for Doug fucking classic.
[2:09:02] Speaker 1: That is the way God works. Indeed, that is absolutely
[2:09:05] Speaker 1: the way that God works. All right, We're gonna get
[2:09:08] Speaker 1: our next guest in here, and we're gonna get Cyber
[2:09:10] Speaker 1: in the box. Hello, welcome in bo.
[2:09:17] Speaker 14: I actually came up to challenge that God is not
[2:09:21] Speaker 14: good because I believe Doug is good.
[2:09:25] Speaker 1: Doug is not just good, he's rock solid. He's just,
[2:09:29] Speaker 1: I mean, a foundation of good. Well w concession cyber
[2:09:34] Speaker 1: one justin zo. I mean that's the fact that I'll
[2:09:39] Speaker 1: take my lumps, that is as my loss.
[2:09:43] Speaker 14: All right, that that is all as all as we
[2:09:45] Speaker 14: got the concession.
[2:09:47] Speaker 1: Big W Cyber, big W Cyber. Well, Annie's not connecting,
[2:09:52] Speaker 1: I don't or any or Annie. I'm not sure how
[2:09:54] Speaker 1: to pronounce the name without the person talking to me.
[2:09:57] Speaker 1: Tell me, but Anyways, they're not connecting. We can move
[2:10:02] Speaker 1: on to our next guest, although it shows right now
[2:10:07] Speaker 1: that I can't even dump them. There we go. Now
[2:10:10] Speaker 1: they've finally disconnected. All right, we'll bring in the next one.
[2:10:14] Speaker 1: Let's grabe. Jenny.
[2:10:18] Speaker 12: Thank you, Hi, good night. I just happened upon in
[2:10:21] Speaker 12: your life.
[2:10:22] Speaker 1: Welcome in, Jenny. How are you doing too bad?
[2:10:25] Speaker 12: I it's my day off. So I'm traversing the deconstructing space.
[2:10:32] Speaker 12: And you sound smart.
[2:10:35] Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the case, but welcome in.
[2:10:38] Speaker 1: Are you deconstructing? Are you a believer? Are you an atheist?
[2:10:41] Speaker 1: What's your position?
[2:10:42] Speaker 9: So well?
[2:10:43] Speaker 12: So the beginning of this year I kind of questioned
[2:10:47] Speaker 12: everything I believed. In twenty nineteen, I started reading the
[2:10:51] Speaker 12: Bible like intensively to find out why was God so
[2:10:55] Speaker 12: angry and why he's always only if oh I am God,
[2:10:58] Speaker 12: I will So he's all this angry and I'm wondering
[2:11:01] Speaker 12: what did humans do to him so badly that he
[2:11:04] Speaker 12: wants to just vanquish us at will? And I'm a
[2:11:08] Speaker 12: nurse by trade, I'm an RN and in those classes,
[2:11:12] Speaker 12: I've been a nurse like the fourteen years and you
[2:11:15] Speaker 12: have to have critical thinking skills. So those classes. You know,
[2:11:19] Speaker 12: one day our professor said to us, evolution is real.
[2:11:23] Speaker 12: People and the entire classes not a word nobody daresay
[2:11:27] Speaker 12: because we were kind of young, and who dared question.
[2:11:30] Speaker 12: This professor from India was telling us evolution is real.
[2:11:34] Speaker 12: In the interim, I had to break up with God
[2:11:38] Speaker 12: because it didn't make sense anymore. And you know, as
[2:11:41] Speaker 12: a black person that that guy didn't understand the Transatlantic
[2:11:46] Speaker 12: trade that my ancestors were a big portal and America
[2:11:51] Speaker 12: built is disingenous and he's lying.
[2:11:54] Speaker 1: Yes, he was lying. He was lying through his tooth.
[2:12:00] Speaker 9: Ha ha what and a half?
[2:12:04] Speaker 12: Okay, So I came up just to say thank you
[2:12:07] Speaker 12: for the good works. There's a lot of African spaces,
[2:12:09] Speaker 12: Jamaican spaces for are deconstructors, and I predict in about
[2:12:13] Speaker 12: five to ten years people are gonna wake up. I
[2:12:15] Speaker 12: wish Africa would wake up because.
[2:12:17] Speaker 15: They're staunch in white baby Jesus, they are. They are
[2:12:21] Speaker 15: bond they're in bondage to Lulu to the Max and
[2:12:24] Speaker 15: people like you and other deconstructors. I don't know if
[2:12:27] Speaker 15: you know jewels and fluffscuito. They are doing the work
[2:12:33] Speaker 15: and stop giving your pastors money. They're flying in jets
[2:12:37] Speaker 15: when I see kind of Copeland space and what's that
[2:12:42] Speaker 15: they look They look like they've been cooking all night
[2:12:44] Speaker 15: and then come on the stage and just want you
[2:12:47] Speaker 15: and they're telling you that you're an idiot and give
[2:12:49] Speaker 15: them the money, and you're doing it.
[2:12:53] Speaker 7: Yeah.
[2:12:53] Speaker 12: God is not good and he's not good to black people.
[2:12:57] Speaker 12: I'm telling you for for real, he's not good to
[2:12:59] Speaker 12: black people. And he's not your god. He's the God
[2:13:02] Speaker 12: of the Israelites and they don't even like him.
[2:13:05] Speaker 1: Oh, so.
[2:13:09] Speaker 12: Thank you for bringing me up.
[2:13:10] Speaker 9: And I'm just ranking, I'm just spewing off.
[2:13:14] Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Jenny, thank you so much for coming
[2:13:16] Speaker 1: in and sharing with us. But listen, we got your back,
[2:13:19] Speaker 1: got your back.
[2:13:20] Speaker 12: Okay, dog, thank you, I'm listening.
[2:13:23] Speaker 7: Thank you.
[2:13:23] Speaker 1: And W Jenny, big fucking w Jenny. Yeah. I can't
[2:13:30] Speaker 1: wait for this nonsense to be over. Zen, thank you
[2:13:32] Speaker 1: for the nineteen ninety nine super chat, says enjoin the stream.
[2:13:35] Speaker 1: Here's a bit for the cracking fun. I appreciate that.
[2:13:37] Speaker 1: And listen, this is all I've got left. I've just
[2:13:40] Speaker 1: got a little bit left. I've got tomorrow I've got
[2:13:43] Speaker 1: to make sure and get cracking because where I live,
[2:13:46] Speaker 1: we can't buy it on Sundays. So like, I gotta,
[2:13:50] Speaker 1: I gotta put it in my memory. I gotta remember
[2:13:52] Speaker 1: to get some cracking, some cracking gold. Actually, I gotta,
[2:13:55] Speaker 1: I gotta get some cracking gold. Let's get our next
[2:13:57] Speaker 1: guest in here. We're gonna grab Jesus is Lord from
[2:14:03] Speaker 1: the YouTube. Q. See if Jesus is with us? How
[2:14:06] Speaker 1: you doing, Jesus?
[2:14:11] Speaker 4: Hello?
[2:14:12] Speaker 1: Hello? How you doing? Yes, Jesus is Lord? Are you
[2:14:17] Speaker 1: at least eighteen? And do you believe in God?
[2:14:23] Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, most definitely?
[2:14:25] Speaker 1: Are you over eighteen?
[2:14:27] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[2:14:28] Speaker 11: Okay?
[2:14:29] Speaker 1: And do you believe that God is all good? Partially good?
[2:14:33] Speaker 1: Or don't know?
[2:14:35] Speaker 16: You might know that God is good all the time.
[2:14:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard that before. Okay, yes, sir. So then
[2:14:41] Speaker 1: everything God has ever done is by definition good.
[2:14:47] Speaker 16: Well, I'm sure you read the first part of Genesis
[2:14:50] Speaker 16: when he created everything, he said everything is very very good.
[2:14:55] Speaker 1: Right, So the question is, do you believe then everything
[2:15:01] Speaker 1: that God does must be good because He is all good?
[2:15:06] Speaker 4: Yes?
[2:15:09] Speaker 1: Do you think that if I gave my child permission
[2:15:13] Speaker 1: to go and make slaves of other people that that
[2:15:15] Speaker 1: would be good or bad?
[2:15:17] Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question?
[2:15:20] Speaker 1: Does it answer my question?
[2:15:22] Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, yeah, I mean do you pay taxes?
[2:15:27] Speaker 1: I do pay taxes, and taxes aren't slavery? Yes they are.
[2:15:33] Speaker 4: I can prove to you that taxes are slavery nor not.
[2:15:37] Speaker 1: So we'll try this again. What's the difference between me
[2:15:42] Speaker 1: existing right now as a taxpayer and what happened in
[2:15:46] Speaker 1: the Antebellum South when the African Americans were slaves? What's
[2:15:49] Speaker 1: the difference?
[2:15:51] Speaker 16: Well, it's the same. There's no difference. They're forcing you
[2:15:56] Speaker 16: if you don't.
[2:15:56] Speaker 4: Pay tax difference they get to know.
[2:16:00] Speaker 1: So you're telling me right now, as a white fucking
[2:16:02] Speaker 1: adult male sitting in a chair in my room, that
[2:16:06] Speaker 1: there's literally no difference between the horrors that I'm experiencing
[2:16:11] Speaker 1: and what somebody in the African American slave trade went through.
[2:16:15] Speaker 4: What horrors are you experiencing?
[2:16:17] Speaker 1: You said, I am not me.
[2:16:20] Speaker 4: The horrors of paying apparently were they taking your money? Right?
[2:16:25] Speaker 1: The horrors of pain. You do know that the property
[2:16:27] Speaker 1: owners who own slaves pay taxes too.
[2:16:29] Speaker 16: Right, Well, do you know that taxes are illegal? Tied
[2:16:33] Speaker 16: to twenty six.
[2:16:36] Speaker 1: We're not doing any of this nonsense sovereign city system. Bullshit,
[2:16:39] Speaker 1: it in the wrong You're in the wrong place for this.
[2:16:41] Speaker 1: We don't do political live streams, so I don't. I
[2:16:44] Speaker 1: don't give a shit. If you think you're a sovereign citizen,
[2:16:46] Speaker 1: you can get arrested on your own time. I'm asking
[2:16:48] Speaker 1: you about the actual physical sovereign slavery. So we'll try
[2:16:55] Speaker 1: this again. It's not a government. Is the name for
[2:16:58] Speaker 1: a stupid person, so, oh my gosh. Slavery is when
[2:17:03] Speaker 1: another human being owns you as property. They compel you
[2:17:07] Speaker 1: to work. You do not get paid for your work,
[2:17:10] Speaker 1: you do not get benefits for your work, and you
[2:17:14] Speaker 1: don't get the option to leave. You can't go somewhere else.
[2:17:17] Speaker 1: Do you think that those things apply to me?
[2:17:23] Speaker 4: Well, if you don't pay, would you get thrown a jail?
[2:17:26] Speaker 1: Right?
[2:17:27] Speaker 16: No, Oh, you don't get the don't pay your taxes.
[2:17:31] Speaker 16: I'm a li negage many intig with.
[2:17:33] Speaker 1: Nobody compels me to work. I could just not work.
[2:17:36] Speaker 1: I don't have to work.
[2:17:39] Speaker 4: And what happens then it depends.
[2:17:40] Speaker 1: I could live with a friend, I can live with
[2:17:42] Speaker 1: a relative. I can do anything I want to. No
[2:17:44] Speaker 1: one's forcing me to work.
[2:17:47] Speaker 4: Then you're going to just starve.
[2:17:49] Speaker 1: No. I just told you. I can live with a
[2:17:51] Speaker 1: friend or a relative. No one's forcing me to work.
[2:17:55] Speaker 1: I could literally go out and live in the woods
[2:17:58] Speaker 1: and forage in the woods. There's so many things things
[2:18:00] Speaker 1: I can do. Nobody's forcing me to work or pay taxes.
[2:18:03] Speaker 1: And if you make below a certain amount, you're mostly
[2:18:07] Speaker 1: not paying taxes to begin with, at least at the
[2:18:09] Speaker 1: federal level. On the state level, you're going to pay
[2:18:11] Speaker 1: some taxes, but not a whole lot, which I think
[2:18:13] Speaker 1: is a fair trade off. Which is the other problem,
[2:18:15] Speaker 1: which is taxes go to help you. Taxes give you
[2:18:21] Speaker 1: the roads. Taxes make sure that you get electricity and
[2:18:24] Speaker 1: water to your residence. Taxes are things that we decided
[2:18:28] Speaker 1: we wanted to do as a people group so that
[2:18:31] Speaker 1: we can have services.
[2:18:33] Speaker 4: So, yeah's.
[2:18:37] Speaker 1: Taxes are not slavery. So we're going to start this
[2:18:39] Speaker 1: from the beginning because I'm talking about real slavery. I'm
[2:18:43] Speaker 1: talking about another human being being owned by an individual
[2:18:48] Speaker 1: as property, being compelled to work, being beaten with a
[2:18:52] Speaker 1: rod if they don't work, and not getting the option
[2:18:55] Speaker 1: to leave. That's what slavery is. Oh okay, Okay, So
[2:19:01] Speaker 1: I don't know why we have to do this with people.
[2:19:04] Speaker 1: But do you believe that slavery, real slavery, not paying
[2:19:08] Speaker 1: taxes is good or bad?
[2:19:10] Speaker 11: Okay?
[2:19:13] Speaker 4: Well yeah, well it just it depends, you know, the situation.
[2:19:18] Speaker 1: Depends on what.
[2:19:20] Speaker 4: I mean, what what's your what's your what you're trying
[2:19:23] Speaker 4: to prove here, right, slavery? For me to say yes,
[2:19:26] Speaker 4: it's it's good.
[2:19:27] Speaker 1: Or no, or I'm not proving anything. I'm to get God,
[2:19:32] Speaker 1: tell me what's in your brain? If God say, in
[2:19:35] Speaker 1: your brain is it good to own slaves?
[2:19:45] Speaker 4: Well, where where those slaves come from?
[2:19:48] Speaker 11: I mean, you tell me.
[2:19:49] Speaker 1: Give me the scenario where it would be good if you.
[2:19:52] Speaker 16: Want to talk about slaves, Well, the blacks were the
[2:19:55] Speaker 16: own the ones that own slaves, which didn't.
[2:19:59] Speaker 1: I didn't ask you any about your false history. I'm
[2:20:01] Speaker 1: asking you, is there a scenario in which it is
[2:20:05] Speaker 1: good to own other human beings with property?
[2:20:11] Speaker 4: Yeah? That's fine?
[2:20:12] Speaker 9: Why not?
[2:20:13] Speaker 1: Okay? So you are post slavery.
[2:20:14] Speaker 4: Then yeah, I don't care. It doesn't bother me.
[2:20:19] Speaker 1: Okay. So were we right to abolish slavery? M Yeah,
[2:20:27] Speaker 1: so then it was wrong.
[2:20:30] Speaker 4: At some point?
[2:20:31] Speaker 1: What made it wrong?
[2:20:36] Speaker 3: No?
[2:20:36] Speaker 4: I see where you're getting. I see I hear you
[2:20:38] Speaker 4: trick questions.
[2:20:39] Speaker 16: Man, you should have been a cop, you should have
[2:20:41] Speaker 16: been a government worker. It depends how you look at it.
[2:20:49] Speaker 16: I mean, if you're going to blame God for slavery.
[2:20:52] Speaker 4: I didn't use you are Nope, this is where.
[2:20:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, I know he's dying so hard to get ahead
[2:20:59] Speaker 1: of the discussion. He can't help himself. He can't stay
[2:21:02] Speaker 1: focused because he's like, oh my god, what Bible passage
[2:21:05] Speaker 1: is going to read to me? These are really these
[2:21:08] Speaker 1: are really easy questions. All I'm asking you is give
[2:21:10] Speaker 1: me a scenario in which it's good to take other
[2:21:14] Speaker 1: people as slaves.
[2:21:20] Speaker 4: A good scenario.
[2:21:21] Speaker 17: Yeah, Well, it's just it's the same thing. You like,
[2:21:26] Speaker 17: you're you're you're basing your your your slavery questions when
[2:21:32] Speaker 17: you're a slave yourself.
[2:21:33] Speaker 1: Well, then give me the scenario where it's bad to
[2:21:35] Speaker 1: take slaves.
[2:21:37] Speaker 4: It's always bad.
[2:21:39] Speaker 1: Okay, So slavery is always bad because you literally did
[2:21:41] Speaker 1: a minute ago, you don't have a problem with slavery.
[2:21:43] Speaker 4: Okay, But you you're saying, you're telling me about.
[2:21:45] Speaker 1: Se contradict himself so many times. Is slavery good or bad?
[2:21:50] Speaker 1: Just give me an answer. It's okay, so slavery is bad,
[2:21:54] Speaker 1: great in which forms? All forms?
[2:21:58] Speaker 4: Man all forms? That's fine.
[2:21:59] Speaker 1: Okay, So all forms of slavery are bad, right, Okay,
[2:22:03] Speaker 1: So the person who says you should go do slavery,
[2:22:07] Speaker 1: you're allowed to do slavery, that person would be giving
[2:22:10] Speaker 1: a command that's bad.
[2:22:12] Speaker 4: The person like what person?
[2:22:15] Speaker 1: Any person?
[2:22:18] Speaker 4: Well, they find the word.
[2:22:19] Speaker 16: Person a lot of meaning to a person.
[2:22:24] Speaker 1: If slavery is always bad, then a person saying that
[2:22:27] Speaker 1: you can go do slavery is always giving a bad command. Nope,
[2:22:37] Speaker 1: and then it's not always bad. This is how words work.
[2:22:40] Speaker 1: I know words are difficult for some people, but this
[2:22:42] Speaker 1: is not a difficult transaction.
[2:22:45] Speaker 4: Can I ask you, I you're a liberal? Uh?
[2:22:48] Speaker 1: Not only am I liberal? It's also irrelevant to this conversation.
[2:22:51] Speaker 1: We're talking about slavery right now.
[2:22:53] Speaker 4: Oh that that fixes everything.
[2:22:55] Speaker 1: That actually doesn't fix anything, because liberals nothing to do because.
[2:22:58] Speaker 4: If you're liberal, it makes sense that you have a witch.
[2:23:01] Speaker 1: I'll try this again. Me being liberal doesn't have anything
[2:23:04] Speaker 1: to do with whether or not slavery's right or wrong.
[2:23:06] Speaker 1: And I know that, Like it's really hard to get
[2:23:09] Speaker 1: cooked publicly, and like you're starting to feel like the
[2:23:12] Speaker 1: flames welling up underneath of you. But I'm not gonna
[2:23:15] Speaker 1: let you pivot to some dumb, bullshit political conversation. There
[2:23:19] Speaker 1: are enough political lives out there you can go watch.
[2:23:21] Speaker 1: This is not a political live stream. You can go
[2:23:24] Speaker 1: debate politics somewhere else. We're talking about what the Bible
[2:23:28] Speaker 1: says right now. Are you capable of having that conversation?
[2:23:32] Speaker 18: I'm capable, but you're just okay, So need to be
[2:23:35] Speaker 18: fair with people. So I'm being fair and I'm not
[2:23:37] Speaker 18: gonna let you pivot to politics. So I'm asking because
[2:23:40] Speaker 18: it seems like you can't give me a straight answer.
[2:23:43] Speaker 18: I'm trying to figure out in which scenarios would being
[2:23:48] Speaker 18: a slave be either good or bad, because it sounds
[2:23:50] Speaker 18: like you don't know if it's good or bad.
[2:23:53] Speaker 4: Well, slavery is bad. It just depends on the situation.
[2:23:56] Speaker 1: Okay. So if slavery is always bad, and so somebody says, hey,
[2:24:01] Speaker 1: you can go do slavery, then what that means is
[2:24:05] Speaker 1: the person saying you can do slavery is giving somebody
[2:24:08] Speaker 1: else permission to do a bad thing.
[2:24:10] Speaker 16: Okay, then what what if he says, go do slavery,
[2:24:17] Speaker 16: and if you don't do it, then what happens.
[2:24:19] Speaker 1: That's irrelevant. I'm talking about the command itself. Is the
[2:24:22] Speaker 1: command good or bad?
[2:24:24] Speaker 4: What's good? It's I mean, if somebody tells you go
[2:24:29] Speaker 4: do slavery, what are you going to do? What would
[2:24:35] Speaker 4: you do? If somebody tells you a command go do slavery?
[2:24:39] Speaker 4: Would you do it?
[2:24:40] Speaker 1: No? It's stupid.
[2:24:43] Speaker 4: If my goods, would you do it?
[2:24:45] Speaker 1: My question is not whether or not somebody would do it.
[2:24:48] Speaker 1: My question is whether or not the command is good
[2:24:50] Speaker 1: or bad. If slavery is always bad, then somebody tells
[2:24:54] Speaker 1: you that you can own slaves. That means the command
[2:24:58] Speaker 1: itself is bad? Do you follow? I get it? Do
[2:25:02] Speaker 1: you follow? Though?
[2:25:04] Speaker 4: I don't agree with it? But yeah, what I don't
[2:25:08] Speaker 4: agree with your point.
[2:25:09] Speaker 1: But don't you agree with.
[2:25:13] Speaker 4: Is that slavery is bad?
[2:25:15] Speaker 1: But you said it was bad? Those were your words.
[2:25:19] Speaker 4: Yes, I know, dude.
[2:25:21] Speaker 1: So then then give me your actual opinion. Stop flip flopping.
[2:25:24] Speaker 1: Is slavery good or bad?
[2:25:27] Speaker 4: I'm not flip flop. I'm telling you that is good,
[2:25:30] Speaker 4: is bad? That is bad?
[2:25:32] Speaker 1: Okay?
[2:25:32] Speaker 4: Do you pass where it's coming from?
[2:25:34] Speaker 1: Is it always bad?
[2:25:36] Speaker 4: Who is it coming from? Though?
[2:25:37] Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. We're talking about the act of slavery,
[2:25:40] Speaker 1: not the person telling you to do it. Is it
[2:25:41] Speaker 1: always bad?
[2:25:44] Speaker 4: I get I get your I know what you're trying
[2:25:46] Speaker 4: to do here.
[2:25:48] Speaker 1: The word always is encompassing. The word always entails that
[2:25:51] Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who's telling you to do it. So
[2:25:54] Speaker 1: if it's always bad, it doesn't matter who told you
[2:25:57] Speaker 1: to do it, it means that it.
[2:25:58] Speaker 4: Does it does matter, it does matter.
[2:26:00] Speaker 1: Then you think sometimes it is we're.
[2:26:02] Speaker 4: Talking about we're talking about God here.
[2:26:05] Speaker 1: So then that sometimes slavery is good, that's what you're saying. Yes, okay,
[2:26:13] Speaker 1: Then that's your position. Glad we can finally get to
[2:26:15] Speaker 1: your So your position is that sometimes sometimes slavery is
[2:26:20] Speaker 1: good and sometimes slavery is bad.
[2:26:23] Speaker 11: Right, yeah, And.
[2:26:24] Speaker 1: Slavery is only good when God tells you to do it, right, Yes, okay,
[2:26:29] Speaker 1: So anything God tells you to do is good. Yeah Okay.
[2:26:34] Speaker 1: If God told you that I need you to go
[2:26:37] Speaker 1: like next door and kill the baby that lives next door,
[2:26:41] Speaker 1: that'd be a good command. It depends do you believe
[2:26:46] Speaker 1: in abortion God told you to do it? Though?
[2:26:49] Speaker 4: Do you believe in abortion that God told you to
[2:26:51] Speaker 4: do it? If God told me to do it, I would.
[2:26:55] Speaker 1: Okay, So if God told you, if he has a purpose,
[2:26:57] Speaker 1: why would.
[2:26:58] Speaker 4: I question that?
[2:26:59] Speaker 1: Listen, I'm just trying to figure out your position. So
[2:27:01] Speaker 1: if God told you to kill the neighbor's baby, it
[2:27:04] Speaker 1: must be good to follow through with it. Now, if God,
[2:27:06] Speaker 1: let's say, for example, your neighbor had ten babies, God said, listen,
[2:27:10] Speaker 1: I need you to kill all ten of those babies.
[2:27:13] Speaker 1: It would be good to.
[2:27:13] Speaker 4: Do if he told me. If he told me, yeah, yeah, I.
[2:27:18] Speaker 1: Would'd be good.
[2:27:19] Speaker 4: I know you wouldn't.
[2:27:19] Speaker 1: But just to make now and follow me. And I
[2:27:24] Speaker 1: know this is going to get long winded. But if
[2:27:25] Speaker 1: God told you to go to the local orphanage and
[2:27:29] Speaker 1: there's one hundred babies in the orphanage, I need you
[2:27:31] Speaker 1: to go to the local orphanage, burn it all to
[2:27:33] Speaker 1: the ground, and then smash all of the ash into
[2:27:37] Speaker 1: like carbon bricks, and then build and then build like
[2:27:40] Speaker 1: a shed out of baby carbon bricks to store your
[2:27:44] Speaker 1: implements of destruction. And would that be good?
[2:27:47] Speaker 4: Your questions are none, They make no sense.
[2:27:53] Speaker 1: To follow through. What would it be right to follow
[2:27:55] Speaker 1: through with that?
[2:28:00] Speaker 4: To me?
[2:28:00] Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's all we needed. Thanks for being honest.
[2:28:04] Speaker 1: All right, Well, listen, Jesus's Lord. I think you've demonstrated
[2:28:07] Speaker 1: everything we needed you to, which is that your thinking
[2:28:10] Speaker 1: capacity has been completely destroyed by your religion. You have
[2:28:15] Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to add to society. You should be locked up.
[2:28:19] Speaker 1: They need to put you in one of those white
[2:28:21] Speaker 1: self snuggies and that like, maybe you shouldn't be allowed
[2:28:24] Speaker 1: in public. I think that's what we need to know.
[2:28:27] Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Maximilian. Thank you so much for the
[2:28:31] Speaker 1: sixty six dollars super chat and sixty six cent Big
[2:28:35] Speaker 1: w Maximilians. Oh brother, the patients you have dealing with
[2:28:38] Speaker 1: some of these callers. Keep going and keep growing. Been
[2:28:41] Speaker 1: catching up to a few streams last week, and so
[2:28:44] Speaker 1: happy you now have the non profit status. Yes, we
[2:28:49] Speaker 1: actually we have the charity nonprofit approved in the state
[2:28:54] Speaker 1: of Ohio. We're waiting for the five oh one C
[2:28:56] Speaker 1: three to get approved on the federal level for tax exemption.
[2:29:00] Speaker 1: It takes a roughly ninety days for that to go through,
[2:29:03] Speaker 1: so it's it's just it's gonna take a little bit
[2:29:05] Speaker 1: of time to get the tax exemption status, but we're
[2:29:08] Speaker 1: almost to the finish line. It's gonna be awesome. I'm
[2:29:10] Speaker 1: super pumped for it. Big gamer, thank you for the
[2:29:13] Speaker 1: ten dollars. Super Jet says, my old church was protesting
[2:29:16] Speaker 1: a swingers club opening today. Ll I also started watching
[2:29:20] Speaker 1: you recently. You get some wild callers, man, keep it up,
[2:29:23] Speaker 1: but thank you bad gamer. And yeah, churches do like
[2:29:27] Speaker 1: to protest stuff. It's the craziest thing that the churches
[2:29:30] Speaker 1: will protest like literally anything. It's crazy. Zaria says, what's
[2:29:35] Speaker 1: the apologetics on First King thirteen? Maybe that an angel
[2:29:38] Speaker 1: told the second prophet instead of God directly. Yeah, so
[2:29:42] Speaker 1: the apologic for One King thirteen, when God sends lions
[2:29:45] Speaker 1: to execute his own profit for being disobedient, the apologetic is, well,
[2:29:50] Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if he was tricked, He should have
[2:29:54] Speaker 1: known or he should have been obedient, no matter what.
[2:29:57] Speaker 1: Like the fact that he was capable of being tricks
[2:30:00] Speaker 1: showed that he wasn't fully obedient to God. But I
[2:30:05] Speaker 1: think that's a bad reading and a bad apologetic of
[2:30:07] Speaker 1: the text. Brett says, thank you for all you do.
[2:30:10] Speaker 1: What is a reverse exorcism? It's when a demon tells
[2:30:13] Speaker 1: a priest to get on the child, which happens Unfortunately
[2:30:17] Speaker 1: more than people realize. It's it's horrific. Good joke though,
[2:30:22] Speaker 1: design says atheist. Complete list of positions where allow bad
[2:30:26] Speaker 1: things to happen would be acceptable trait And yeah, it
[2:30:33] Speaker 1: is interesting how quickly theists want to read the Bible
[2:30:37] Speaker 1: and read interpret it as well. God's not causing it,
[2:30:40] Speaker 1: he's allowing it. That's some bullshit. You're lying to me.
[2:30:42] Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let you do it. Balfa guy says
[2:30:44] Speaker 1: it's just disgusting that these Christians will always decide on
[2:30:47] Speaker 1: dishonesty rather than answer questions directly. If you have to lie,
[2:30:51] Speaker 1: you're wrong, yes, yes, just be honest, just answer the
[2:30:54] Speaker 1: damn question. It's not even hard andres thank you so
[2:30:58] Speaker 1: much for the four thousand and eight Thank you, f
[2:31:00] Speaker 1: thank you so so much. That's huge. It says a rabbi,
[2:31:03] Speaker 1: a priest, and a minister walk into a bar. The rabbit.
[2:31:06] Speaker 1: I love this, by the way, this is my favorite pun.
[2:31:08] Speaker 1: The rabbit a priest. He listen carefully. A rabbit, a priest,
[2:31:12] Speaker 1: and a minister walk into a bar. The rabbit says,
[2:31:16] Speaker 1: I think I meet via typo praise. Doug gets me
[2:31:20] Speaker 1: every time. I love that joke. It's one of my
[2:31:23] Speaker 1: It's the best joke on the planet. Maybe it's so
[2:31:25] Speaker 1: good the cheese. Thank it for the ten dollars supertest.
[2:31:28] Speaker 1: There's no evidence that the Biblical that the Bible hates
[2:31:31] Speaker 1: or disproves of Satan and his actions. God says he
[2:31:35] Speaker 1: hated heats all, but he never states that about Satan.
[2:31:38] Speaker 1: Satan's nature is necessary by God's intended design. That seems
[2:31:42] Speaker 1: to be the case. Satan is the henchmen of God.
[2:31:46] Speaker 1: He's the thing that takes on the status of being
[2:31:49] Speaker 1: evil so God can have clean hands. And last one
[2:31:52] Speaker 1: from our friend son. It's great to see his sonis
[2:31:54] Speaker 1: thank you for the six hundred and sixty six Argentinian dollars.
[2:31:57] Speaker 1: Is just passing by and listening to normal people well
[2:32:00] Speaker 1: defending slavery. Mind boggling every time. Long lived Doug, Well,
[2:32:04] Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate that. Sonis big w All right,
[2:32:08] Speaker 1: let's get our next caller in. We've got a bunch
[2:32:10] Speaker 1: of people that have been waiting to get in on
[2:32:13] Speaker 1: the on the TikTok, so we're going to get mixed mind.
[2:32:19] Speaker 1: I think they were in here first. We'll get mixed
[2:32:21] Speaker 1: mind into the discussion. Hey, I do it mixed justin.
[2:32:28] Speaker 1: How's it going. It's Mike's Mike's I'm sorry, Mike's Mike's yeah,
[2:32:32] Speaker 1: no problem, Mike's mind. Yeah, I get it.
[2:32:36] Speaker 19: Hey, I like how you switch that one round. Instead
[2:32:39] Speaker 19: of if a guy commits a crime his right wife
[2:32:43] Speaker 19: is raped, he turned it around where he's raped. They
[2:32:45] Speaker 19: seem to understand that a little bit better.
[2:32:46] Speaker 6: Right.
[2:32:47] Speaker 1: It's harder for them to wrap their brain around it
[2:32:49] Speaker 1: when it's happening to a woman, because then they can
[2:32:53] Speaker 1: they can put that into a different box.
[2:32:56] Speaker 6: Right, that's nice.
[2:32:57] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:32:58] Speaker 19: Also, have you heard the one about the pirate that
[2:33:00] Speaker 19: walks into the bar of the steering will sticking out
[2:33:03] Speaker 19: of his pants. I don't know if I have the
[2:33:05] Speaker 19: bartender points and the pirates says are it's driving me nuts?
[2:33:12] Speaker 6: No, So so.
[2:33:12] Speaker 1: Anyway, I'll be I'll be good. That's good, you'll you'll.
[2:33:16] Speaker 19: Kick my ass here. My one is, think of this.
[2:33:20] Speaker 19: There's trillions of stars for billions of years. So think
[2:33:23] Speaker 19: of all those photons. Mhm, right, pretty near infinite amount
[2:33:27] Speaker 19: of photons. Why is it dark?
[2:33:32] Speaker 1: What do you mean?
[2:33:32] Speaker 6: You know what I mean?
[2:33:34] Speaker 19: There's so so I don't necessarily believe in a god,
[2:33:36] Speaker 19: but there's got to be something that, like mellows that
[2:33:38] Speaker 19: out for us, so we can. I mean, no matter
[2:33:41] Speaker 19: where you look, there be photons literally pounding your eyes
[2:33:44] Speaker 19: into blindness, it seems.
[2:33:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, but you don't think photons are like visible individually,
[2:33:50] Speaker 1: do you.
[2:33:51] Speaker 19: Yeah, well, I mean so like, for example, at nighttime,
[2:33:53] Speaker 19: you look up at the sky, you can see all
[2:33:55] Speaker 19: of the stars. So I don't know.
[2:34:00] Speaker 1: So the photons, I mean, are essentially illuminating objects. When
[2:34:04] Speaker 1: they bounce off of objects, we see the.
[2:34:08] Speaker 19: Like your eye. Yeah right, I don't know. So I
[2:34:13] Speaker 19: ran that by Blitz and he thought I was stupid.
[2:34:15] Speaker 1: It's an interesting question. I can see why somebody would
[2:34:18] Speaker 1: ask it. But so here's my understanding. Right, So photons
[2:34:22] Speaker 1: are everywhere, but right, that's not how our vision works.
[2:34:25] Speaker 1: Our vision isn't looking out and then deciphering what's out there.
[2:34:30] Speaker 1: What's actually happening is the photons are bouncing off of
[2:34:33] Speaker 1: objects and then coming into our eyes, right, which means
[2:34:37] Speaker 1: in order for us to see a photon, it must
[2:34:40] Speaker 1: be coming from something directing it to our eyeballs. So like,
[2:34:43] Speaker 1: if there's a photon that's like bouncing off of something
[2:34:48] Speaker 1: behind me, that photon is not going to get into
[2:34:50] Speaker 1: my eyeball. I'll never see it. Right, But if I
[2:34:53] Speaker 1: turn around, the photons bouncing off the wall are now
[2:34:56] Speaker 1: going to get into my eyeball, and my eyeball is
[2:34:58] Speaker 1: going to process that photon. And the other thing about
[2:35:01] Speaker 1: like the photons is like when they bounce off of things,
[2:35:06] Speaker 1: they take on like different wavelengths, and that's how we're
[2:35:09] Speaker 1: like figuring out, Okay, this is dark, this is dark,
[2:35:12] Speaker 1: this is light. This is one color versus another color.
[2:35:15] Speaker 1: So my understanding, and again I'm not a physicist, but
[2:35:18] Speaker 1: my understanding is like the reason why we only see
[2:35:22] Speaker 1: things in space we don't see individual photons is because
[2:35:26] Speaker 1: the way our brain and our eyeballs are receiving photons
[2:35:30] Speaker 1: is that we're not looking out. We're waiting for photons
[2:35:33] Speaker 1: to come in, and so we're literally just processing photons
[2:35:37] Speaker 1: that have already like bounced off of something or emerged
[2:35:40] Speaker 1: from an object. Like if there's a star or a
[2:35:43] Speaker 1: light that's shooting photons out, we'll see those photons coming
[2:35:47] Speaker 1: from that source because that's the source of the photon.
[2:35:51] Speaker 1: And I think there's like a threshold of photons too,
[2:35:53] Speaker 1: Like if I receive one photon bouncing off a rock,
[2:35:56] Speaker 1: that's meaningless to me, Like you need a certain like
[2:36:00] Speaker 1: marshold of photons to start making out like where the
[2:36:02] Speaker 1: photon is coming from.
[2:36:04] Speaker 6: To be able to see it.
[2:36:05] Speaker 19: Okay, that's a pretty good that's a pretty good good explanation.
[2:36:09] Speaker 19: And also, are you the one that uses the log
[2:36:13] Speaker 19: the denial of logic proves its existence?
[2:36:17] Speaker 1: What do you mean is that?
[2:36:18] Speaker 6: Well, just like if if.
[2:36:20] Speaker 19: I were to deny a logical or logic itself, that
[2:36:25] Speaker 19: denial proves that logic exists.
[2:36:28] Speaker 6: Is that?
[2:36:28] Speaker 1: Well, is that one of your arguments? No, that's it's
[2:36:31] Speaker 1: not me. I think that might be something Ian has argued.
[2:36:34] Speaker 1: So Ian and I disagree on the transcendental nature of logic.
[2:36:38] Speaker 1: I don't think that logic is transcendental. I think it's
[2:36:40] Speaker 1: a it's a language that we developed as humans. We
[2:36:43] Speaker 1: invented it, just like we invented like math and the English.
[2:36:47] Speaker 1: So that's not an argument that I've used. We might
[2:36:50] Speaker 1: actually agree on that. I'll hit him up then, yeah.
[2:36:55] Speaker 11: All right?
[2:36:56] Speaker 3: Cool?
[2:36:58] Speaker 11: Also, Oh, so I saw it.
[2:36:59] Speaker 19: I saw you on Ian with Blitz, and I thought,
[2:37:02] Speaker 19: if you guys would have had Peterson on there, you
[2:37:04] Speaker 19: could have been like the four Horsemen. Oh my gods,
[2:37:07] Speaker 19: you know, bring on ten thousand you guys could have
[2:37:09] Speaker 19: been like the Spartans against ten thousand.
[2:37:11] Speaker 1: So we've talked about getting a biologist involved, but it's
[2:37:15] Speaker 1: just really difficult coordinating four people into a live stream. Plus,
[2:37:20] Speaker 1: as the panel gets bigger and bigger, like the conversation
[2:37:22] Speaker 1: becomes more unfair. That's one of the reasons why typically,
[2:37:26] Speaker 1: as long as we have like a really nice guest,
[2:37:28] Speaker 1: we don't like try to a dog pile on them.
[2:37:31] Speaker 1: Like if they want to do a philosophical argument that
[2:37:34] Speaker 1: they're talking to Ian. If they want to do a
[2:37:35] Speaker 1: science argument, they're talking to Blitz. If they want to
[2:37:37] Speaker 1: do a Bible argument, they talk to me. So we
[2:37:40] Speaker 1: try to make it so that like as long as
[2:37:42] Speaker 1: the guest is being polite, we're not like dog piling them.
[2:37:45] Speaker 1: But like, if you've got four people on a screen,
[2:37:48] Speaker 1: it's really difficult to find people to call in in
[2:37:52] Speaker 1: the first place, much less coordinated every week, you know.
[2:37:55] Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, there's only so much time and space.
[2:38:00] Speaker 19: Also, I've heard the argument that the witnesses at Sinai
[2:38:05] Speaker 19: because there were so many of them. What do you
[2:38:06] Speaker 19: think of that one witnesses of what the witnesses a
[2:38:12] Speaker 19: miracle or whatever at Sinai.
[2:38:14] Speaker 1: I ever with the with the giving of the commandments. Yeah,
[2:38:20] Speaker 1: I guess I don't really know the argument, Like, I
[2:38:22] Speaker 1: don't believe. Yeah, I don't believe there was ever a
[2:38:25] Speaker 1: contingency of visual lites in the desert at Sinai receiving commandments.
[2:38:29] Speaker 1: I think that was something that was invented many centuries later.
[2:38:34] Speaker 19: Okay, right, And what about the argument of people just
[2:38:39] Speaker 19: being made a certain way? What do you mean as
[2:38:42] Speaker 19: a believer or a not a believer.
[2:38:44] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the Bible tells you that the Bible
[2:38:46] Speaker 1: tells you that God knits you in the womb. The
[2:38:48] Speaker 1: Bible tells you that God creates people to be blind
[2:38:51] Speaker 1: or mute, although there's a contradiction there because there's one
[2:38:54] Speaker 1: passage where it states that the blindness and other diseases
[2:38:59] Speaker 1: that are causes of unclean spirits. But yeah, I mean
[2:39:02] Speaker 1: that just seems to be what God does. And personally,
[2:39:04] Speaker 1: I think that's one reason to think that God is
[2:39:06] Speaker 1: not good because God versus people with these abnormalities and
[2:39:12] Speaker 1: then this allows them from coming into the assembly of
[2:39:16] Speaker 1: the Lord. So if you read the commandments, there's a
[2:39:19] Speaker 1: commandment not allowing people with bodily abnormalities to participate in worship.
[2:39:29] Speaker 19: Yeah, well I was speaking more of like in real life,
[2:39:32] Speaker 19: like somebody that would come to religion later in life
[2:39:35] Speaker 19: after their past, like the impressionable age, if you will,
[2:39:41] Speaker 19: you know what I mean, they come to like say,
[2:39:43] Speaker 19: somebody in their twenties that hasn't believed in God for
[2:39:47] Speaker 19: all that time and then suddenly I'm sure you've had
[2:39:49] Speaker 19: people on your life that are like that. I became
[2:39:52] Speaker 19: a Christian when I was twenty five, for example.
[2:39:56] Speaker 11: You know what I mean.
[2:39:57] Speaker 19: It seems like somebody like that was made to be
[2:39:59] Speaker 19: a believer opposed to Like with me, I'm inherently since
[2:40:03] Speaker 19: since I'm young, I'm it was just it.
[2:40:07] Speaker 1: It didn't appeal.
[2:40:08] Speaker 19: To me at all, Like I was like, I was
[2:40:10] Speaker 19: instantly like you know, the fact that like light from
[2:40:14] Speaker 19: stars coming from billions of years, I mean that instantly
[2:40:17] Speaker 19: kills the six thousand years old thing.
[2:40:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.
[2:40:22] Speaker 19: And just it never I never really felt it, like
[2:40:25] Speaker 19: you know, I just have just leftover questions trying to
[2:40:29] Speaker 19: figure stuff out.
[2:40:30] Speaker 1: I get that. Well, listen, Mike, thanks for being here.
[2:40:33] Speaker 1: I've got to get someone to argue with up here.
[2:40:35] Speaker 19: But I know I know I got it here. One
[2:40:38] Speaker 19: more thing though, you you always say cybercillin.
[2:40:41] Speaker 1: I know I say that wrong.
[2:40:43] Speaker 19: Fix it, man, Hey, keep keep up the good work.
[2:40:47] Speaker 19: I love your I love your stuff.
[2:40:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks man, I appreciate that.
[2:40:50] Speaker 6: Thanks man.
[2:40:53] Speaker 1: Like people keep telling me to fix that, I still
[2:40:55] Speaker 1: have no idea how to pronounce it. Uh. Asking somebody
[2:40:58] Speaker 1: with a lisp to pronounce a word with that many
[2:41:01] Speaker 1: b's and s's in it is. It's a fucking crazy ask.
[2:41:06] Speaker 1: But let me grab a couple of super chats. We've
[2:41:08] Speaker 1: got one from Red Trek, right, thank you for the
[2:41:10] Speaker 1: thirty dollars superchat. Big W says it would seem some
[2:41:13] Speaker 1: sections of Deuteronomy are based on Assyrian vassal treatles. Yes
[2:41:17] Speaker 1: they are. Do you think that the Gdon scribes would
[2:41:19] Speaker 1: have had access to a sample of a treaty via
[2:41:23] Speaker 1: King A has his royal court? This is a really
[2:41:26] Speaker 1: good question. I don't know precisely which of the which
[2:41:31] Speaker 1: of the kings or the royal court would have had
[2:41:33] Speaker 1: access to such literature, but we do know that during
[2:41:35] Speaker 1: the Babylonian exile, a lot of these scribes are being
[2:41:40] Speaker 1: trained to write. In Babylonian exile I'm inclined to believe
[2:41:43] Speaker 1: the same was true of the scribes that went to
[2:41:45] Speaker 1: Assyria during the Assyrian exile. In fact, there's been entire
[2:41:51] Speaker 1: books written on this, demonstrating from the Biblical text and
[2:41:54] Speaker 1: from the Assyrian text, how and from extant textual witnesses
[2:42:01] Speaker 1: from Assyria, how the when the Hebrew scribes got over
[2:42:05] Speaker 1: to Mesopotamia, how they were trained in the scribal schools,
[2:42:09] Speaker 1: and how it shows up in the Bible. So, yeah,
[2:42:13] Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think the reason why these
[2:42:16] Speaker 1: treaties show up is one because they were common, right,
[2:42:19] Speaker 1: and number two because they the places where they learned
[2:42:22] Speaker 1: to write were using these treaties. But I'd like, you
[2:42:26] Speaker 1: don't even you even have to go that far. The
[2:42:28] Speaker 1: idea of a treaty between nations, like a vassal treaty,
[2:42:31] Speaker 1: was so common everyone did it right, Like every nation
[2:42:35] Speaker 1: of that territory would have been familiar with vassal treaties.
[2:42:39] Speaker 1: It was just such a common occurrence, you know what
[2:42:41] Speaker 1: I mean. Loggi says, I made it finally enough to
[2:42:45] Speaker 1: sleep to watch on time. I thought I smelled fresh
[2:42:49] Speaker 1: baked pretzels. Though, I think you're a dentist today. All
[2:42:53] Speaker 1: the teeth bowling is making me crave anesthesia. Stay rock
[2:42:57] Speaker 1: unverduge with thank you, Loggie, appreciate that. Yeah, today has
[2:43:00] Speaker 1: been a dentisty day. I actually agree with that, Cameron.
[2:43:03] Speaker 1: Thank you for the twenty dollars supertes says Justin. It's
[2:43:05] Speaker 1: been over a year now since I'm donating a little
[2:43:07] Speaker 1: money while I'm learning so much along the way. My
[2:43:11] Speaker 1: Friday night used to feel so boring, but now they're
[2:43:14] Speaker 1: meaningful and inspiring. Thank you for all you do well, Cameron,
[2:43:16] Speaker 1: thank you so much, and thank you for always being
[2:43:18] Speaker 1: here and supporting the live stream and supporting my work.
[2:43:22] Speaker 1: I super appreciate it, buddy, like it really means the
[2:43:24] Speaker 1: world to me. And el Teene two, thank you for
[2:43:27] Speaker 1: the twenty hours, Supertest says. A guy walks up to
[2:43:29] Speaker 1: his friend and says, hey, sorry, I'm late. I hit
[2:43:31] Speaker 1: a deer in the way here. His friend says, wait,
[2:43:36] Speaker 1: didn't you walk here? The verse guy says, yeah, I
[2:43:38] Speaker 1: think I have anger problem. Took him a good buddy,
[2:43:42] Speaker 1: that's good. I like that. And last one from our
[2:43:45] Speaker 1: friend doctor Joe. Thank you so much. Doctor Joe says.
[2:43:47] Speaker 1: Half this debate is about context. The other half is
[2:43:49] Speaker 1: about context. I agree, that's a good joke. Also, here's
[2:43:54] Speaker 1: some doctor Pepper pennies because I'll let others fun crack it. Well,
[2:43:58] Speaker 1: thank you so much, appreciate that. Big w to Doctor
[2:44:01] Speaker 1: Joe and friends. Speaking of cracket, I have to use
[2:44:04] Speaker 1: the restroom just briefly. I'll be right back. I've got
[2:44:07] Speaker 1: to take care of business, and then we'll get our
[2:44:10] Speaker 1: next guests in here. We've got quite a few guests
[2:44:12] Speaker 1: waiting to get in. All right, we are back at it.
[2:46:03] Speaker 1: I'm going to grab a guest from the TikTok queue,
[2:46:06] Speaker 1: and then I'm going to grab a guest from the
[2:46:08] Speaker 1: YouTube queue, and we'll, uh, we'll keep the conversation going.
[2:46:19] Speaker 1: See if Bern can load up. Welcome in Fern or Fear.
[2:46:24] Speaker 3: Yeah it's Fern.
[2:46:27] Speaker 9: Can you hear me?
[2:46:27] Speaker 1: Okay, yeah I can hear it. Can you hear me?
[2:46:29] Speaker 3: Awesome.
[2:46:30] Speaker 13: I don't want to take up too much of your time.
[2:46:32] Speaker 13: I just really kind of wanted to thank you because
[2:46:35] Speaker 13: when I was sixteen, I was groomed into a Jesus
[2:46:40] Speaker 13: based religious extremist cult, and it took me a lot
[2:46:45] Speaker 13: of years to get out because they absolutely took advantage
[2:46:48] Speaker 13: of my history of abuse and desperation to be loved
[2:46:54] Speaker 13: and accepted, and they manipulated me, and once they had
[2:46:58] Speaker 13: me kind of entangled in that culture, they would continually
[2:47:03] Speaker 13: degrade me and tell me that my faith wasn't strong enough,
[2:47:05] Speaker 13: which is why I wasn't healing as I became more disabled,
[2:47:09] Speaker 13: et cetera, et cetera. And I just feel like, had
[2:47:11] Speaker 13: I come across somebody like yourself. I'm approaching thirty three now,
[2:47:17] Speaker 13: I get out when I was about twenty five, and
[2:47:20] Speaker 13: had I come across content like yours a lot sooner,
[2:47:23] Speaker 13: I think I would have had my footing a lot sooner.
[2:47:25] Speaker 13: And so I'm really appreciative that you put yourself out
[2:47:27] Speaker 13: there because it is dangerous. It's not just concepts and theories,
[2:47:32] Speaker 13: it's real world practicality that.
[2:47:34] Speaker 9: Is like ending lives.
[2:47:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, that is margin and.
[2:47:39] Speaker 13: Devastating people with trauma, not just physical violence, you know.
[2:47:44] Speaker 13: So I just really appreciate you, and I appreciate your time,
[2:47:47] Speaker 13: and I will continue to keep watching.
[2:47:50] Speaker 1: Thank you for and I appreciate that and sorry you
[2:47:53] Speaker 1: had to go through that. Hopefully you know your journey
[2:47:56] Speaker 1: at this end will get lighter and lighter, you.
[2:47:59] Speaker 13: Know, absolutely, absolutely, I am. I've come leaps and bounds.
[2:48:04] Speaker 13: And I am an advocate and I'm an activist, and
[2:48:09] Speaker 13: I try to create We're a real world change from
[2:48:12] Speaker 13: the things that changed me.
[2:48:13] Speaker 1: So good to hear. Good, Thanks well for thanks for
[2:48:17] Speaker 1: stopping by.
[2:48:19] Speaker 3: Thank you, have a good one.
[2:48:22] Speaker 1: The church does. The sheer amount of people that the
[2:48:26] Speaker 1: church harms is it's staggering some days that they hear about.
[2:48:30] Speaker 1: There's so much of it. It's just it's hard. Okay,
[2:48:36] Speaker 1: we're gonna get Have the rock, I think is the
[2:48:40] Speaker 1: name have the rock? That should be fun? All right,
[2:48:44] Speaker 1: have the rock? And you have the rock? Did I
[2:48:46] Speaker 1: say your name right?
[2:48:48] Speaker 20: It's sorry A game I like to play.
[2:48:53] Speaker 1: Are you at least eighteen? And do you believe in
[2:48:57] Speaker 1: some kind of a god?
[2:48:59] Speaker 6: I am eighteen?
[2:49:00] Speaker 20: Yes, and I do?
[2:49:03] Speaker 1: Okay? And which God do you believe in?
[2:49:07] Speaker 3: So I believe in?
[2:49:10] Speaker 20: And this is actually gonna be one of the things
[2:49:11] Speaker 20: I wanted to start the conversation with to make sure
[2:49:14] Speaker 20: that I don't waste any of your time. Is this
[2:49:18] Speaker 20: conversation supposed to be intended just for the God of
[2:49:22] Speaker 20: Christianity or the entire Abrahamic religious set, or even more expansive.
[2:49:29] Speaker 1: I mean the conversation is basically, for any God that
[2:49:34] Speaker 1: you think is like one good, it doesn't have to
[2:49:38] Speaker 1: be the Abrahamic God. I think there are good reasons
[2:49:41] Speaker 1: to believe that even if you don't believe in the
[2:49:44] Speaker 1: Abrahamic God, that this God isn't good. So I mean,
[2:49:47] Speaker 1: if you don't believe in the Abrahamic God, that's okay.
[2:49:51] Speaker 6: Okay, cool.
[2:49:52] Speaker 20: Well, also I wanted to say thank you for having
[2:49:54] Speaker 20: me on the platform and letting me have a voice
[2:49:57] Speaker 20: on here.
[2:49:58] Speaker 1: Good thing. So, what type of a God or what
[2:50:01] Speaker 1: which God do you believe in?
[2:50:04] Speaker 20: So I grew up Catholic, that very quickly in my
[2:50:08] Speaker 20: early teens became not something that I was comfortable with.
[2:50:13] Speaker 20: I became pretty militant atheists after that. Then I sort
[2:50:18] Speaker 20: of shifted to an agnostic view. And I've been kind
[2:50:23] Speaker 20: of on a spiritual journey since my late teen like
[2:50:27] Speaker 20: nineteen twenty and now I'm twenty nine. So the God
[2:50:32] Speaker 20: that I would believe in is probably best characterized as
[2:50:36] Speaker 20: a spiritual being or ethereal sense almost in the sense
[2:50:44] Speaker 20: that I can't be truly as understood as maybe the
[2:50:47] Speaker 20: God of Christianity would.
[2:50:50] Speaker 9: Be to Christians.
[2:50:53] Speaker 1: But you do believe in a god, and you think
[2:50:56] Speaker 1: one of the characteristics of that god is that it's
[2:50:58] Speaker 1: all good? I do, okay? And is there more than
[2:51:04] Speaker 1: one god or just the one God? You know?
[2:51:07] Speaker 20: I don't think I could definitely say that there is
[2:51:10] Speaker 20: that there isn't more than one God, but I definitely
[2:51:12] Speaker 20: believe in at least the one God.
[2:51:15] Speaker 1: Okay. So if the God you believe in is all good,
[2:51:21] Speaker 1: did your God create all the stuff like the universe, people,
[2:51:25] Speaker 1: the planet?
[2:51:28] Speaker 4: You know?
[2:51:29] Speaker 1: I think that he.
[2:51:31] Speaker 2: Probably did create.
[2:51:35] Speaker 20: It, but I do believe it also created him. That
[2:51:38] Speaker 20: they can't exist without the other, and that they have
[2:51:42] Speaker 20: a feedback into each other. And trying to know what
[2:51:47] Speaker 20: king first is probably above my human understanding.
[2:51:54] Speaker 1: So are you saying that we need the good and
[2:51:56] Speaker 1: the bad? That was trying to say that's actually a good.
[2:52:00] Speaker 20: I don't think that good can't exist Without that. You
[2:52:03] Speaker 20: would have nothing to compare what we would know as
[2:52:07] Speaker 20: good to, just like how you wouldn't be able to
[2:52:09] Speaker 20: understand light in the way that we do if you
[2:52:11] Speaker 20: couldn't experience darkness or hot with cold?
[2:52:14] Speaker 1: You know, do you believe in an afterlife?
[2:52:18] Speaker 2: That is something I've struggled with too.
[2:52:20] Speaker 20: I actually think that the afterlife is probably something in
[2:52:25] Speaker 20: which your consciousness becomes more i'm sorry, less material and
[2:52:34] Speaker 20: integrated with the world around you from when you were
[2:52:37] Speaker 20: the physical.
[2:52:40] Speaker 1: Is the after life entirely good or partly good? You know?
[2:52:44] Speaker 20: I actually do think that we still suffer in the
[2:52:46] Speaker 20: after life. I think that I think that because we
[2:52:51] Speaker 20: would still be part of the world, and the world
[2:52:53] Speaker 20: will have suffering in it.
[2:52:55] Speaker 1: So what's the point of the after life?
[2:52:59] Speaker 4: Ily?
[2:52:59] Speaker 20: I don't think that there would be necessarily a point,
[2:53:02] Speaker 20: but I would hope that there is, And if there is,
[2:53:05] Speaker 20: I would want it to be to continue experiencing the
[2:53:08] Speaker 20: world and to have people who have not transcended to
[2:53:12] Speaker 20: the after life yet, who are still where we are now,
[2:53:16] Speaker 20: to be able to experience you continuously as well.
[2:53:20] Speaker 1: Was God good before he created everything?
[2:53:24] Speaker 20: So this is another part that's difficult for me to answer.
[2:53:28] Speaker 20: I'm not gonna lie to you because the so you're like,
[2:53:32] Speaker 20: the what attracted me?
[2:53:33] Speaker 2: What is the stream that I saw.
[2:53:34] Speaker 20: Of the phrase God is not good? Prove me wrong?
[2:53:36] Speaker 2: Right? I get that?
[2:53:37] Speaker 6: Right?
[2:53:40] Speaker 20: So I think that you know, when someone claims that
[2:53:45] Speaker 20: God is real, that's an affirmative stance, right, And it
[2:53:49] Speaker 20: is their responsibility to prove that.
[2:53:52] Speaker 2: Well, when somebody says.
[2:53:53] Speaker 1: To prove that God is real, I think for the
[2:53:56] Speaker 1: sake of this argument, now, I'm just I'm just granting
[2:54:01] Speaker 1: that there could be a God.
[2:54:03] Speaker 6: Yeah.
[2:54:04] Speaker 20: No, that was just sort of analogous to what I
[2:54:06] Speaker 20: was going to follow it up with, which is, if
[2:54:08] Speaker 20: you claim that God is real, that is also an
[2:54:11] Speaker 20: affirmative stance, and it would be on my responsibility to
[2:54:17] Speaker 20: prove that. Right, And if you claim that God is
[2:54:20] Speaker 20: not real, I'm sorry, God is not good. I also
[2:54:25] Speaker 20: think that that as an affirmative stance, and that that
[2:54:28] Speaker 20: can't be proven.
[2:54:29] Speaker 1: I think it can. That's why I'm trying to figure
[2:54:31] Speaker 1: out what you believe for God actually did. So I'll
[2:54:34] Speaker 1: give you the argument. Do you think that somebody can
[2:54:37] Speaker 1: be all good if they cause unnecessary suffering? And by
[2:54:40] Speaker 1: unnecessary I'm just referring to suffering that doesn't need to exist.
[2:54:48] Speaker 20: No, I do think that those would be mutually exclusive.
[2:54:51] Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So there, I mean, you probably believe there
[2:54:54] Speaker 1: is some suffering that's necessary, but there's some suffering that's unnecessary.
[2:54:58] Speaker 1: Do you believe that there's unnecessar the suffering.
[2:55:00] Speaker 2: Here just in the world, in general.
[2:55:04] Speaker 20: Yeah, yeah, I don't think that, for example, sexual assault
[2:55:12] Speaker 20: or the abhorrent actions of the Transatlantic slave trade could
[2:55:15] Speaker 20: ever be necessary for any human to experience life in
[2:55:21] Speaker 20: a positive way.
[2:55:23] Speaker 1: What about natural disasters?
[2:55:29] Speaker 20: That's that's that's actually interesting because now we've switched from
[2:55:33] Speaker 20: something that humans have directly been involved with to something
[2:55:37] Speaker 20: we are either indirectly or maybe not at all involved
[2:55:42] Speaker 20: with its creation. I don't think that that would be
[2:55:45] Speaker 20: necessary suffering, and at least a lot of it, you know,
[2:55:48] Speaker 20: the death of people who haven't been able to experience
[2:55:52] Speaker 20: life yet, you know, at a very young ages. Unnecessary
[2:55:55] Speaker 20: suffering would be an example because of those natural disasters.
[2:56:00] Speaker 1: So God created a planet with unnecessary suffering, the unnecessary
[2:56:06] Speaker 1: suffering being natural disasters.
[2:56:07] Speaker 20: Right, Yeah, I do think that that is possible.
[2:56:12] Speaker 1: Okay, So we kind of started the dialogue by the admission,
[2:56:17] Speaker 1: which is that somebody who causes unnecessary suffering isn't good.
[2:56:22] Speaker 1: Only the necessary suffering is good. Right, So if God
[2:56:25] Speaker 1: creates a planet with natural disasters that causes unnecessary suffering,
[2:56:29] Speaker 1: then I'm led to the logical conclusion that God can't
[2:56:33] Speaker 1: be all good. He might be like kind of good.
[2:56:36] Speaker 1: I think the only way out of this is to
[2:56:39] Speaker 1: either say that he didn't know what was going to happen,
[2:56:41] Speaker 1: like he doesn't know the future, or to say like
[2:56:44] Speaker 1: he's just not all powerful, like he created the earth,
[2:56:47] Speaker 1: but he just couldn't create it any other way, like
[2:56:50] Speaker 1: he just he was powerful and not super powerful. And
[2:56:53] Speaker 1: either of those answers would get you out of the
[2:56:56] Speaker 1: all good conundrum. But I don't know if those are
[2:56:58] Speaker 1: admissions that you would be willing to take. Would you
[2:57:00] Speaker 1: take those admissions? Yeah?
[2:57:03] Speaker 20: Actually, you pretty much walked right where I was going to.
[2:57:06] Speaker 20: Actually is that I don't assert that the god that
[2:57:10] Speaker 20: I believe in would be omnipotent.
[2:57:14] Speaker 6: I don't.
[2:57:15] Speaker 20: I think that they might have omniscience, but only after
[2:57:19] Speaker 20: they created the world and became inter really part of it,
[2:57:23] Speaker 20: and the world possibly created them. Okay, So and you know,
[2:57:28] Speaker 20: if it's I do think that that is a fair
[2:57:30] Speaker 20: thing to say, well, then I you know, if you're
[2:57:34] Speaker 20: willing to admit that they were not omnipotent, or at
[2:57:36] Speaker 20: least weren't at some point, then you can't inherently claim
[2:57:40] Speaker 20: that they're all good or all bad, because you almost
[2:57:44] Speaker 20: have a level of humanity to them. And I'd be
[2:57:46] Speaker 20: willing to accept that.
[2:57:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's an interesting argument. I can't say
[2:57:51] Speaker 1: I've ever used that, but I certainly think you could
[2:57:54] Speaker 1: make that argument. That might be even more aggressive an
[2:58:01] Speaker 1: argument than on what I was gonna make, But it's interesting.
[2:58:05] Speaker 1: I guess my point the path I was gonna go
[2:58:08] Speaker 1: down is if God's not all powerful, then, like I,
[2:58:16] Speaker 1: it's good to know what his limits are. So, for example,
[2:58:20] Speaker 1: it might be that he's irresponsible. Right, So, if God
[2:58:24] Speaker 1: isn't all powerful, he's just like really powerful. He's powerful
[2:58:28] Speaker 1: enough to create a planet, but he's not powerful enough
[2:58:32] Speaker 1: to like not fuck it up, then it sounds to
[2:58:35] Speaker 1: me like he's just being irresponsible. Like so, for example,
[2:58:39] Speaker 1: if I I hate to use this analogy because it's
[2:58:42] Speaker 1: it's such a common analogy, but like, if I decide
[2:58:45] Speaker 1: I'm gonna have fifteen babies when I turn eighteen, I'm
[2:58:48] Speaker 1: gonna have fifteen babies. Every year, I'm gonna get pregnant
[2:58:51] Speaker 1: every year, I'm gonna have a baby. And because I
[2:58:53] Speaker 1: love babies, right, well, it might turn out that I'm
[2:58:56] Speaker 1: super irresponsible because I didn't do any proper family plan.
[2:59:00] Speaker 1: I think I have no money to take care of
[2:59:01] Speaker 1: these babies, and all these babies end up like suffering
[2:59:04] Speaker 1: because of it. Right, Well, that's on me, that's being irresponsible.
[2:59:08] Speaker 1: And I don't even have omnissions, but I know enough
[2:59:12] Speaker 1: to know that, like, hey, if I do this thing,
[2:59:15] Speaker 1: it is possible that I'm going to create lots of
[2:59:18] Speaker 1: unnecessary harm if I do it. Right, So, even if
[2:59:20] Speaker 1: God's not all powerful, even if God's not all knowing,
[2:59:24] Speaker 1: I'm led to believe that this entity would have enough
[2:59:28] Speaker 1: knowledge and power to not act recklessly and irresponsible. Does
[2:59:33] Speaker 1: that make sense?
[2:59:35] Speaker 6: It does make sense.
[2:59:37] Speaker 1: I would.
[2:59:38] Speaker 20: Do you remember the point I made where I can
[2:59:41] Speaker 20: see that maybe he wasn't or he wasn't omniscient prior
[2:59:45] Speaker 20: to the creation of the universe, but then became omnission afterward.
[2:59:51] Speaker 20: I think, yeah, I would apply that same principle to
[2:59:54] Speaker 20: the omnipotence part. So my best understanding of how I
[2:59:58] Speaker 20: would believe in God would be that, you know, he
[3:00:02] Speaker 20: is as part of the world as the world is
[3:00:04] Speaker 20: a part of him, but they act independently. The universe
[3:00:08] Speaker 20: has an input factor to it that then that then
[3:00:12] Speaker 20: God receives. God responds to it in the best possible
[3:00:16] Speaker 20: way it can, which will often result in unnecessary suffering,
[3:00:20] Speaker 20: but maybe to prevent something even worse. It's that it's
[3:00:24] Speaker 20: that he is, and it's a feedback WED that's not
[3:00:26] Speaker 20: perfect and often causes harm.
[3:00:30] Speaker 1: So I want to make sure I heard you correctly.
[3:00:32] Speaker 1: You're suggesting that God when he acted, didn't know all things,
[3:00:36] Speaker 1: but then he became all knowing after.
[3:00:40] Speaker 20: He's only he's only all knowing because he can experience
[3:00:45] Speaker 20: the universe and it's entirety, but that it can only
[3:00:48] Speaker 20: happen after it's already been created.
[3:00:52] Speaker 1: So okay. So God didn't know what was going to
[3:00:55] Speaker 1: happen before he created. He discovered what was going to
[3:00:58] Speaker 1: happen after he created it.
[3:01:02] Speaker 20: Yeah, And to be clear, I want to say that
[3:01:04] Speaker 20: I don't believe that I can disprove you're the assertion
[3:01:09] Speaker 20: that God is not good. My stance is that kind
[3:01:13] Speaker 20: of the kind of the uh, the exact opposite would
[3:01:16] Speaker 20: be God, if God is good, prove me wrong. I
[3:01:20] Speaker 20: kind of come from the stances of I can't I
[3:01:22] Speaker 20: can't prove to you that God is good, But I
[3:01:24] Speaker 20: also don't think you can prove to me that he's
[3:01:27] Speaker 20: not good in the way that I believe in him.
[3:01:31] Speaker 1: Well, I don't know what you believe. Yet that's what
[3:01:32] Speaker 1: we're trying to determine right now, right, so fair. If
[3:01:35] Speaker 1: God doesn't know what's going to happen when he creates,
[3:01:39] Speaker 1: like he's just like throwing spaghetti at the wall. Sounds
[3:01:42] Speaker 1: to me like he's like an incompetent goof.
[3:01:47] Speaker 20: Yeah, I mean, well, so again, I don't think that
[3:01:50] Speaker 20: he necessarily. It's not like a painter looking at a
[3:01:54] Speaker 20: canvas and then deciding what to do.
[3:01:57] Speaker 9: It is.
[3:01:58] Speaker 20: Imagine that you're walking down the street and you have
[3:02:03] Speaker 20: been suddenly given these tools to control all of traffic.
[3:02:08] Speaker 20: It already exists. You can't stop it. All you can
[3:02:11] Speaker 20: do at this point is direct it, and not in
[3:02:14] Speaker 20: an omnipotent way, and you will cause crashes, but you're
[3:02:19] Speaker 20: going to do the best that you can to prevent it.
[3:02:23] Speaker 1: Right. Let's try this again, though, But if I'm creating,
[3:02:27] Speaker 1: I have some level of responsibility for what happens with
[3:02:30] Speaker 1: my creation. So like I'm an engineer by trade, I
[3:02:34] Speaker 1: designed machines for a living. I used to, I do
[3:02:37] Speaker 1: this now so like if I design a machine and
[3:02:41] Speaker 1: some guy loses an arm, that's not me. Now, listen,
[3:02:45] Speaker 1: I can't predict that there's going to be like that,
[3:02:49] Speaker 1: there's going to be a guy who bypasses a particular
[3:02:53] Speaker 1: safety switch and sticks his arm in the machine. That's
[3:02:56] Speaker 1: something I couldn't anticipate. But I'm still responsible if I
[3:02:59] Speaker 1: don't the necessary precautions and make my machine in such
[3:03:03] Speaker 1: a way that they it can't be bypassed. Right, So
[3:03:06] Speaker 1: I have to have some level of competency, even though
[3:03:09] Speaker 1: I don't know the future, to have some foresight of
[3:03:12] Speaker 1: what could happen in the future. Right, So if God
[3:03:16] Speaker 1: created the universe with absolutely no idea of what was
[3:03:20] Speaker 1: going to happen, like none, he had no idea whatsoever
[3:03:23] Speaker 1: what was going to happen, Like he just like it's
[3:03:26] Speaker 1: akin to just like clicking his fingers and said, okay,
[3:03:29] Speaker 1: let's just see what happens. Like to me, this is
[3:03:32] Speaker 1: now a God that knows nothing.
[3:03:37] Speaker 20: You know, Well, I would agree with that, but I
[3:03:39] Speaker 20: think that maybe I'm not conveying what I believe happened
[3:03:43] Speaker 20: at that creation point. So I'll try again, And I'm
[3:03:46] Speaker 20: sorry if this is going in loops for you, that's
[3:03:48] Speaker 20: not my intention.
[3:03:50] Speaker 1: Well, let me ask a better question. Maybe I didn't
[3:03:52] Speaker 1: ask right question. Okay, before God created the universe. Did
[3:03:56] Speaker 1: he know anything about what he was going to what
[3:03:59] Speaker 1: it was going to be? Like, No, I don't believe,
[3:04:02] Speaker 1: so okay, So that means God's active creation is entirely arbitrary.
[3:04:09] Speaker 20: Well, also, I don't think that God created the universe.
[3:04:12] Speaker 20: I think that God is a result of the universe.
[3:04:15] Speaker 20: He is the input back into the universe the way
[3:04:18] Speaker 20: that the universe created him. He exists in a way.
[3:04:23] Speaker 20: He exists because the universe made him. The universe operates
[3:04:27] Speaker 20: in the way it does because He is trying to
[3:04:29] Speaker 20: guide it imperfectly. I will grant that.
[3:04:32] Speaker 2: Okay.
[3:04:33] Speaker 1: So you just don't believe in God, that's okay, Okay. So,
[3:04:36] Speaker 1: like I've toyed around with the concept of a super
[3:04:39] Speaker 1: evolved universal being before a long time ago. It's a
[3:04:43] Speaker 1: super interesting topic. I love it. My audience isn't here
[3:04:46] Speaker 1: for it, probably, but to me though, definitionally speaking, like,
[3:04:50] Speaker 1: if you believe in a super evolved being, not a
[3:04:53] Speaker 1: being that created all things, then I think we just
[3:04:56] Speaker 1: have a fundamentally different concept of God. I'm talking about
[3:04:59] Speaker 1: it a being that is like pre existent to all
[3:05:04] Speaker 1: things and had created all things.
[3:05:08] Speaker 20: Yeah, I think you could totally prove make the case,
[3:05:10] Speaker 20: then that that God would would be not good because
[3:05:14] Speaker 20: you would be granting that they are omnipotent and omniscient
[3:05:17] Speaker 20: and have control, and with that control, they've done atrocities,
[3:05:20] Speaker 20: right yep, or at least allow them basically. But can
[3:05:23] Speaker 20: I ask you a question, do you think that it's fair?
[3:05:27] Speaker 20: Or maybe it's not even a question of fair andness.
[3:05:28] Speaker 20: Maybe you don't even care that I would call that God,
[3:05:32] Speaker 20: like my version of what I believe the God is.
[3:05:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think this gets in like really weird
[3:05:38] Speaker 1: waters where people are like, well, who gets to decide
[3:05:41] Speaker 1: what the word god means? And yeah, like I don't
[3:05:46] Speaker 1: really know, Like I don't know who determined at what
[3:05:48] Speaker 1: point where the parameters are of what God is. As
[3:05:52] Speaker 1: I can tell you is that when I say God,
[3:05:54] Speaker 1: I'm referring to some sort of an entity that is
[3:05:58] Speaker 1: responsible for the creation of all things, which, to be fair,
[3:06:02] Speaker 1: does kind of cut out some god concepts. For example,
[3:06:05] Speaker 1: Plato believed in an eternal universe with eternal gods. He
[3:06:09] Speaker 1: didn't necessarily believe that there was like one master God
[3:06:13] Speaker 1: that created all things, unless there's unless he wrote about
[3:06:15] Speaker 1: it somewhere that I didn't read. But I've read enough
[3:06:19] Speaker 1: of Plato to know that he advocates at certain points
[3:06:21] Speaker 1: for an eternal universe. So like my god concept kind
[3:06:26] Speaker 1: of cuts some of those god concepts out. But like, sure,
[3:06:31] Speaker 1: if you're not really if you're not really responsible for anything,
[3:06:35] Speaker 1: like if you're just I don't know, some sort of
[3:06:38] Speaker 1: primordial entity that didn't really create this space, then you're
[3:06:43] Speaker 1: not really responsible for it. So I'm not really actually
[3:06:45] Speaker 1: judging that god, Like I'm not casting any aspersions on
[3:06:49] Speaker 1: like Zeus, you know, because I don't think Zeus created anything.
[3:06:55] Speaker 20: Right, Yeah, And I think it's hard for on a
[3:06:58] Speaker 20: human level if we were actually see the God of
[3:07:01] Speaker 20: the Bible that it's omnipotent, omniscient and created the world,
[3:07:04] Speaker 20: and then the God that I'm describing, I don't think
[3:07:07] Speaker 20: that we would ever be on the mental plane high
[3:07:10] Speaker 20: enough to differentiate between those two.
[3:07:13] Speaker 6: Possibly.
[3:07:13] Speaker 20: I mean like at that point our brain would be
[3:07:15] Speaker 20: almost in a black hole, like it would be so
[3:07:19] Speaker 20: beyond our conceptions of reality and what could be. Yeah,
[3:07:24] Speaker 20: And I honestly is getting a little off topic, and
[3:07:28] Speaker 20: then I'll let you have your time back, and I
[3:07:30] Speaker 20: appreciate the conversation, but you know, we're quickly approaching a
[3:07:34] Speaker 20: level with AI where people are suspecting an actual intelligent
[3:07:40] Speaker 20: because none.
[3:07:40] Speaker 2: Of what we have right now is AI.
[3:07:41] Speaker 20: It's you know, local language modeling, and it's not intelligent
[3:07:44] Speaker 20: by the definition of what intelligence is. People will suspect
[3:07:49] Speaker 20: that maybe silicon based intelligence could be possible soon, and
[3:07:53] Speaker 20: if it is, it probably will have you know, exponential
[3:07:56] Speaker 20: or a logarithmic growth to It could get to a
[3:07:59] Speaker 20: point where, you know, like Ultron is beyond human understanding.
[3:08:04] Speaker 20: We could never understand its algorithms that guide its processes
[3:08:07] Speaker 20: and how much it can control so quickly, so that
[3:08:12] Speaker 20: I'm like that kind of not reassures, but opens my
[3:08:15] Speaker 20: mind to the idea that the way that I believe
[3:08:17] Speaker 20: in God may may have already happened, and the universe
[3:08:19] Speaker 20: is repeating who knows. But I appreciate your time and
[3:08:23] Speaker 20: letting me on here.
[3:08:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been coming in have well. I appreciate the
[3:08:27] Speaker 1: kind conversation.
[3:08:29] Speaker 2: Thanks, have a good one.
[3:08:30] Speaker 1: Cheers, buddy. I see people already trying to cook me
[3:08:35] Speaker 1: in the comments about Plato. I haven't read all the
[3:08:38] Speaker 1: Plato's works. I've read On the Soul, I've read The Republic,
[3:08:44] Speaker 1: I've read Credo, and a couple others. But my understanding
[3:08:52] Speaker 1: of Plato is that he believed in a demi urge,
[3:08:55] Speaker 1: not not like like and correct me if I'm wrong.
[3:08:58] Speaker 1: I don't believe that the idea of a demi urge
[3:09:02] Speaker 1: is the same thing as our concept of a god. Now,
[3:09:05] Speaker 1: if a demi urge is the same thing as a god,
[3:09:07] Speaker 1: then it seems word that we would have separate words
[3:09:10] Speaker 1: for it. Right, But I gotta be wrong. I'm not
[3:09:16] Speaker 1: a I'm not a like a Plato scholar. I can
[3:09:18] Speaker 1: only tell you what I've read so far. Right, so
[3:09:22] Speaker 1: like it seems like he believed in multiple deities. He
[3:09:27] Speaker 1: certainly makes a case through Socrates. And this is the
[3:09:30] Speaker 1: other question I always have about a Plato's I don't
[3:09:32] Speaker 1: know how much of what he has Socrates saying. I
[3:09:37] Speaker 1: don't always know if Socrates is a puppet for Plato
[3:09:42] Speaker 1: to say what Plato thinks, or if the writings of
[3:09:45] Speaker 1: Socrates are what the real Socrates actually said. That's what
[3:09:49] Speaker 1: I don't know yet. I'm still trying to work through that,
[3:09:51] Speaker 1: because like if if Socrates is just like a like
[3:09:55] Speaker 1: a puppet account for Plato to say stuff that's unpopular
[3:10:00] Speaker 1: that I got a lot of questions about what Plato believes.
[3:10:03] Speaker 1: So if everything Plato has Socrates saying legitimately belongs to Socrates.
[3:10:10] Speaker 1: If that's the case, then that might lead to some
[3:10:14] Speaker 1: different conclusions. But anyways, let me grab a couple supertess
[3:10:17] Speaker 1: we'll get our next guest in here. Small Johnson, thank
[3:10:20] Speaker 1: you for sending out five Deconstruction Zone gifted memberships. That
[3:10:24] Speaker 1: is huge, my friend. I appreciate that. In Jmr, thank
[3:10:27] Speaker 1: you so much for being here. Jmr, thank you for
[3:10:29] Speaker 1: the twenty dollars super chat. Jmar says, Doug gives you
[3:10:32] Speaker 1: what you want, but Sharon gives you what you need.
[3:10:35] Speaker 1: Bring safe words, finfully wet for shared. I love it.
[3:10:41] Speaker 1: Sorry I didn't put that emoji up yet. I'm working
[3:10:43] Speaker 1: on it. I'm working on it. An expected thought on
[3:10:47] Speaker 1: TikTok is saying kind of what I'm feeling that Socrates
[3:10:51] Speaker 1: is Plato's alter ego. I don't know. I don't know.
[3:10:56] Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure it out. I know there's
[3:10:58] Speaker 1: a lot of opinions on this. My philosophy professor when
[3:11:03] Speaker 1: I was in Bible College was the first one to
[3:11:05] Speaker 1: bring this topic up, and I've never found a satisfactory
[3:11:08] Speaker 1: answer to it. Yet I'm still trying to figure it
[3:11:10] Speaker 1: out whether or not Socrates is the mouthpiece for Plato,
[3:11:13] Speaker 1: or whether or not he's a real person. Mixtress says,
[3:11:16] Speaker 1: can Doug turn water into wine? I need to know
[3:11:18] Speaker 1: Doug's magical gifts before I joined the church the Church Club.
[3:11:22] Speaker 1: Thanks for helping me deconstruct Mixtress, Doug is pro wine.
[3:11:27] Speaker 1: I've never seen him turn water into wine, but I
[3:11:30] Speaker 1: have seen him grind flower or grind like grain into
[3:11:35] Speaker 1: flour to make bread, so he at least gives you bread.
[3:11:38] Speaker 1: We know that much. And Phil says, and Colter and
[3:11:42] Speaker 1: a horse walk into a bar. The bartender says, hey,
[3:11:45] Speaker 1: and why the long face and colder jokes are? You
[3:11:53] Speaker 1: don't hear them anymore? But I always appreciate that last
[3:11:56] Speaker 1: one from our friend. Nathan says. Prophets are a really
[3:11:59] Speaker 1: insufficient way to deliver a message. God could have just
[3:12:01] Speaker 1: waited a two thousand years and created a website like
[3:12:03] Speaker 1: everybody everybody else. I couldn't agree more. And this is
[3:12:07] Speaker 1: such a good point because like, listen, like, if God
[3:12:11] Speaker 1: wanted to communicate effectively, He's all powerful. He could communicate
[3:12:16] Speaker 1: perfectly if he wanted, right, we'll get our next question here.
[3:12:20] Speaker 1: How are you doing, go?
[3:12:23] Speaker 3: I am doing definitely well, good to hear.
[3:12:27] Speaker 1: Go. Are you eighteen? And do you believe in God?
[3:12:31] Speaker 3: I'm nineteen, so I guess that counts as a teen
[3:12:34] Speaker 3: at a And yes, I believe in the classical taste God.
[3:12:39] Speaker 3: But before that, before our conversation which I wanted to give,
[3:12:43] Speaker 3: I wanted to make some comments about your comments on Plato,
[3:12:50] Speaker 3: So about the Socratives and Plato thing, from what I
[3:12:54] Speaker 3: understand is basically like fifty to fifty. So sometimes so
[3:12:59] Speaker 3: crative just says what what Plato actually wants him to say,
[3:13:03] Speaker 3: or and sometimes just what Plato is actually recording. He heard,
[3:13:07] Speaker 3: so praatestis. As for Plato and the demuse and all
[3:13:11] Speaker 3: of that, well this is really a bit complex because well,
[3:13:16] Speaker 3: first of all, what Plato conceives is that the John
[3:13:19] Speaker 3: this this world, this material world. There is the realm
[3:13:23] Speaker 3: of the forms, and the forms are like the true
[3:13:26] Speaker 3: assis of things. There is like a form mot It's like.
[3:13:28] Speaker 1: The transcendental existence of the the the physical object that's
[3:13:33] Speaker 1: not physical.
[3:13:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, basically it's late. There is like an actual man,
[3:13:37] Speaker 3: the concept of man floating out there and the concept
[3:13:40] Speaker 3: of cat and of dog and of all of that,
[3:13:42] Speaker 3: and then there's like some sort of shame, and then
[3:13:46] Speaker 3: the ultimate one is the good, which is the transcendental,
[3:13:50] Speaker 3: the highest, highest form, and then the demuge. From what
[3:13:53] Speaker 3: I understand again, then the Musee comes along and then
[3:13:57] Speaker 3: creates the universe according to the farm, so he sees
[3:14:00] Speaker 3: the forms. I'm from the Pontics the universe. Now this great.
[3:14:04] Speaker 3: This gets extremely dramatic later because then the Platonists with I.
[3:14:10] Speaker 1: Don't know anything about neo Platonism. I started reading Plato
[3:14:14] Speaker 1: like way back when I was in college, and then
[3:14:17] Speaker 1: I finished on to other things, and I've been tasked
[3:14:22] Speaker 1: with learning more philosophy. So I started ringing it again
[3:14:24] Speaker 1: a couple of months ago, and I've got a couple
[3:14:28] Speaker 1: of his dialogues under the belt now, but there's a
[3:14:31] Speaker 1: lot of remaining questions, and I'm I'm suspecting that as
[3:14:36] Speaker 1: I keep reading, I'm going to learn more about his
[3:14:39] Speaker 1: viewpoints that I didn't know, or they contradict other things
[3:14:43] Speaker 1: previously because somebody else is saying it.
[3:14:46] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think with the neo Platony is that
[3:14:49] Speaker 3: they were basically, of course platon is at some degree.
[3:14:52] Speaker 3: They also had a lot of influence from Aristotle. From understanding,
[3:14:55] Speaker 3: and they basically expanded a Plato's theory and more in
[3:15:00] Speaker 3: the one which is like they ultimately transcended but big
[3:15:03] Speaker 3: et cetera. Then there is the nows which is the intellect.
[3:15:07] Speaker 3: Then there is the world. So from what I understand,
[3:15:10] Speaker 3: and that I was influenced, like a lot of early
[3:15:13] Speaker 3: Christian stuff, that help of gnostic heresy was basically just
[3:15:16] Speaker 3: taking Platonism, managing it with Christianity and doing whatever.
[3:15:20] Speaker 1: Sure, so let's I appreciate the dialogue on Playo. I
[3:15:24] Speaker 1: don't want to bore the guests, Like if they weren't here,
[3:15:26] Speaker 1: we could talk longer, because my actual I am genuinely
[3:15:30] Speaker 1: intrigued in this particular person. But nevertheless, you believe in
[3:15:35] Speaker 1: some kind of a guy. Which God do you believe in?
[3:15:38] Speaker 3: I believe in the God of Christianity. But really my
[3:15:41] Speaker 3: main point, my main point here was that I remember
[3:15:44] Speaker 3: a few days ago you made as in another one
[3:15:47] Speaker 3: of your life you were talking about John eight forty four,
[3:15:53] Speaker 3: about Satan being a murderer from the beginning, and just
[3:15:58] Speaker 3: say that these according to the mind of the outer
[3:16:01] Speaker 3: was from Joon or outers, I guess means that Satan
[3:16:06] Speaker 3: was created evil? Was that your point? Uh? No?
[3:16:09] Speaker 1: My point was there was never a situation that we
[3:16:12] Speaker 1: know about where Satan was good.
[3:16:17] Speaker 3: Well, well, will not that be simply because we only
[3:16:20] Speaker 3: like see Satan after his fall?
[3:16:24] Speaker 1: Well, the falls not in the Bible. That's the first problem, right,
[3:16:27] Speaker 1: So the fall of Satan doesn't really appear in the text.
[3:16:30] Speaker 1: You have to like try to force it into Isaiah
[3:16:33] Speaker 1: fourteen and Ezekiel twenty eighty, and it's not really there. Now.
[3:16:38] Speaker 1: I get that, you like, if you force it hard enough,
[3:16:41] Speaker 1: you can just claim that it's about Satan, even though
[3:16:43] Speaker 1: the text itself says otherwise. But I think the reality
[3:16:47] Speaker 1: is whether or not you think Ezekiel or Isaiah are
[3:16:50] Speaker 1: referring to Satan. I don't know if it really matters,
[3:16:52] Speaker 1: because when Satan fell, if you believe he fell, he
[3:16:58] Speaker 1: could have locked him up, just like he did with
[3:17:00] Speaker 1: the angels that did the stuff in Genesis six. It
[3:17:04] Speaker 1: says in Second Theater in Jude that those angels and
[3:17:07] Speaker 1: Matthew twenty four twenty twenty five, that those angels have
[3:17:12] Speaker 1: been locked up in like the furnace, in chains and
[3:17:15] Speaker 1: their awaiting judgment. He could have done the same thing
[3:17:18] Speaker 1: with Satan, and he chose not to.
[3:17:21] Speaker 3: From my understanding, like, that's actually interesting point. I have
[3:17:25] Speaker 3: to investigate this because I will admit that. And so
[3:17:29] Speaker 3: I do know some stuff. I am extremely How do
[3:17:32] Speaker 3: you say no, no, we are no, you got it? Yes,
[3:17:37] Speaker 3: I am just so. So I myself don't know so
[3:17:42] Speaker 3: as much stuff as I will want, Joe, I just
[3:17:44] Speaker 3: came here to say that patically, like when John eight
[3:17:47] Speaker 3: forty four save Satan, but some murder from the beginning.
[3:17:50] Speaker 3: This just means that during the period of like the
[3:17:53] Speaker 3: creation of the heaven and the earth, especially the earth,
[3:17:56] Speaker 3: he was already a murder. And this refers to him
[3:17:59] Speaker 3: more that in quote unquote the spiritual this is many
[3:18:05] Speaker 3: type position. I know that you take the historical grammatical
[3:18:08] Speaker 3: approach and are going to be like no, but actually,
[3:18:10] Speaker 3: in the Middle Eastern context, this actually refers to the
[3:18:13] Speaker 3: straw and with the humanity and divinity, which fair enough.
[3:18:17] Speaker 3: But from my reading, if if if for the sake
[3:18:20] Speaker 3: of the argument, we grant you vocality.
[3:18:23] Speaker 1: And consistency, I'm okay with that.
[3:18:24] Speaker 3: I will I will simply say that this is what
[3:18:26] Speaker 3: I mean. So it's not like Satan was created. It's
[3:18:29] Speaker 3: just that from the creation of earth, when there was affairs,
[3:18:34] Speaker 3: Creator to him old there, which is Adam. And if
[3:18:37] Speaker 3: the Satan was moderate there and he moldered them.
[3:18:41] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:18:41] Speaker 1: So no, So for the for the sake of this
[3:18:44] Speaker 1: particular argument, I can grant you all of that right
[3:18:47] Speaker 1: because I'm not here debating the interpretation of the text. Necessarily,
[3:18:51] Speaker 1: I'm not here to debate whether or not Christianity is
[3:18:53] Speaker 1: true when I run this topic. When this topic is up,
[3:18:58] Speaker 1: like I can just grant you that that like the
[3:19:02] Speaker 1: New Testament and the Old Testament are allowed to go together.
[3:19:05] Speaker 1: That's fine. So but that being said, like even if
[3:19:09] Speaker 1: we if we go that route, I think we've got
[3:19:11] Speaker 1: some problems, which means that like before Adam and Eve
[3:19:15] Speaker 1: were deceived by Satan, God knew that it was going
[3:19:18] Speaker 1: to happen. God was okay with it happening. In fact,
[3:19:21] Speaker 1: it seems to be part of the plan. So you
[3:19:25] Speaker 1: could say something like Satan wasn't necessary evil, like God
[3:19:29] Speaker 1: was like he knew it was going to happen, but
[3:19:31] Speaker 1: it needed to happen because it was part of God's
[3:19:34] Speaker 1: redemptive plan. But if that's the case, then it seems
[3:19:38] Speaker 1: like Satan doesn't get any blame because Satan was doing
[3:19:41] Speaker 1: what he had to do.
[3:19:44] Speaker 3: There is an interesting point which truly gets into the
[3:19:48] Speaker 3: question regarding the problem of evil an a more so predestination,
[3:19:52] Speaker 3: because well, are Christian traations believe in some sort of
[3:19:55] Speaker 3: predestination from Calvinist to from Ankatoch which got like which
[3:20:00] Speaker 3: I am to Armenians, all of that stuff. But I
[3:20:04] Speaker 3: guess what we would respond is that if they are
[3:20:07] Speaker 3: said God is the ultimate preemericaus primary cause, they are
[3:20:12] Speaker 3: even Satan. I mean, if he's a secondary cause in
[3:20:15] Speaker 3: God's plags, he still has a level of freedom, because
[3:20:19] Speaker 3: we agree that all creators, which with intellect at least
[3:20:23] Speaker 3: and will have a degree of freedom. But I will
[3:20:26] Speaker 3: admit that I am a bit like I don't know
[3:20:28] Speaker 3: if I were explaining about defending evolutions against a younger
[3:20:32] Speaker 3: creation is there are many, many, many matings that I
[3:20:35] Speaker 3: can't explain because I am not to learning that. And
[3:20:37] Speaker 3: the same with this issue. I would simply say that
[3:20:40] Speaker 3: I know that you will dispute that well. But if
[3:20:42] Speaker 3: God pertestines things I really agree, which I will, I
[3:20:46] Speaker 3: myself will say I am not sure how to explain
[3:20:49] Speaker 3: it fully to you because I'm learning, So that's what I.
[3:20:52] Speaker 6: Can say about that.
[3:20:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, on the topic, it seems to
[3:20:58] Speaker 1: me that if Satan since the foundation of the world
[3:21:04] Speaker 1: has been doing bad stuff and God knew that he
[3:21:08] Speaker 1: was going to do bad stuff, either one of two
[3:21:11] Speaker 1: things is true. Either God was okay with him doing
[3:21:14] Speaker 1: that bad stuff or God was like negligent. After Satan
[3:21:20] Speaker 1: did the first bad thing, you should have got Satan
[3:21:22] Speaker 1: out of the picture. But it seems to be from
[3:21:24] Speaker 1: the New Testament that he didn't get Satan out of
[3:21:27] Speaker 1: the picture. He actually made him the god of this world.
[3:21:30] Speaker 1: In two Corinthians four to four, Paul says, referring to Satan,
[3:21:34] Speaker 1: it seems that the God of this world is blinding
[3:21:38] Speaker 1: people to the truthfulness of the Gospel. What a weird
[3:21:41] Speaker 1: thing to do that, Like the most evil entity ever created,
[3:21:44] Speaker 1: you would just put it on the earth to rule
[3:21:46] Speaker 1: and rain and put terror on the earth.
[3:21:51] Speaker 3: Well, I guess we'd say that, like because Paul himself
[3:21:54] Speaker 3: says in Romans one Ramas one to eighteen twenty that.
[3:22:00] Speaker 1: We lost them that again, but we lost the protection.
[3:22:04] Speaker 3: Yeah. Romance one, eighteen to twenty where power says that
[3:22:11] Speaker 3: the power of God can be known even just by
[3:22:15] Speaker 3: the light of nature, by the ipalans. And this is
[3:22:17] Speaker 3: drawing from the organical Book of Wisdom. I think how
[3:22:22] Speaker 3: all of creation allows you to know God, and if
[3:22:26] Speaker 3: you don't, if you choose not to, it's because well,
[3:22:30] Speaker 3: you are wicked basically. So what will say is that, yes,
[3:22:33] Speaker 3: Satan is the God of this world, but that's by
[3:22:36] Speaker 3: the shooting of those who don't desire to know God.
[3:22:40] Speaker 3: It's basically is that sorry, is that the people prefers
[3:22:47] Speaker 3: reject God basically, and that's why Satan is the God
[3:22:49] Speaker 3: of this world.
[3:22:50] Speaker 1: Well, I understand, I hear what you're trying to do.
[3:22:53] Speaker 1: That you're trying to say that the words don't mean words,
[3:22:56] Speaker 1: they mean something else. But listen to what it says
[3:23:00] Speaker 1: in the in the passage. I'm gonna put it up
[3:23:02] Speaker 1: on the screen.
[3:23:05] Speaker 3: Let's make it. What passage? What passage?
[3:23:11] Speaker 1: It's Second Corinthians four fourth.
[3:23:15] Speaker 3: Okay uh second second Corinthians for four sorry, uh huh,
[3:23:22] Speaker 3: Second Corinthians for here four For in their case, the
[3:23:29] Speaker 3: God of this world has blinded the minds of them
[3:23:32] Speaker 3: believers to keep them from seeing the lights of the
[3:23:34] Speaker 3: Gospel of the Glory of Jesus Christ.
[3:23:37] Speaker 1: This seems antithetical to God's plan, Like if God's plan,
[3:23:41] Speaker 1: if it says that God's desire is that none would perish,
[3:23:45] Speaker 1: So if God's desire is that none would perish, it
[3:23:48] Speaker 1: seems really counterproductive that God would send the most evil
[3:23:51] Speaker 1: entity to the earth to blind people to the truth
[3:23:54] Speaker 1: of the Gospel.
[3:23:56] Speaker 3: Well, I think that the issue here is that with
[3:23:59] Speaker 3: regards to blind them, I think that it is a
[3:24:02] Speaker 3: general thing, atat among Catholic theology. I don't know others,
[3:24:06] Speaker 3: because that's my theology that basically, these the sinners, and
[3:24:12] Speaker 3: so they are blinded. They choose to be blinded because
[3:24:15] Speaker 3: if they wanted they called seagulls as Romance one eighteen
[3:24:18] Speaker 3: through twenties, they basically they choose to be ignorant.
[3:24:21] Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, but why is God having them blinded? Like so,
[3:24:26] Speaker 1: for example, if there's if these sinners have no chance
[3:24:30] Speaker 1: of repentance, then what's the point of blinding them to
[3:24:34] Speaker 1: the light of the gospel. That that's a redundant, dumb
[3:24:36] Speaker 1: thing to do.
[3:24:38] Speaker 3: Wait, if they have no sense of repentance, what's that.
[3:24:44] Speaker 1: Do they have repentance or a chance that repentance urn out. Also, well,
[3:24:51] Speaker 1: that really good question they have. If everybody has a
[3:24:56] Speaker 1: chance at repentance, then I think it's illogical to do
[3:25:00] Speaker 1: what tewod Corinthians is suggesting, right, because if there's no
[3:25:04] Speaker 1: way that they would ever repent, you don't need to
[3:25:06] Speaker 1: blind them.
[3:25:10] Speaker 3: If there's no way they will even repent, they you
[3:25:13] Speaker 3: will don't need to blind them.
[3:25:16] Speaker 1: Right. So for example, let me let me give you
[3:25:18] Speaker 1: an analogy for this. Right, So, if I said, if
[3:25:24] Speaker 1: I gave you a car for your sixteenth birthday party,
[3:25:27] Speaker 1: and the car had an automatic seat belt, and you
[3:25:30] Speaker 1: could not drive the car unless the seat belt is on. Right,
[3:25:35] Speaker 1: If that was the case, then I wouldn't need to
[3:25:41] Speaker 1: go around with cops and making you put seat belts on,
[3:25:45] Speaker 1: because there's no way for you to drive the car
[3:25:48] Speaker 1: without your seat belt. Let's imagine all cars behave this way, right,
[3:25:52] Speaker 1: it would be redundant for me to go around checking
[3:25:56] Speaker 1: people to see if they're wearing seat belts if there
[3:25:58] Speaker 1: was no other option, right you had to anyways, So
[3:26:02] Speaker 1: in the case here, like if these are sinners who
[3:26:05] Speaker 1: have no chance of repentance, then blinding them to the
[3:26:09] Speaker 1: light of the gospel doesn't do anything. They're already not
[3:26:12] Speaker 1: coming to the light of the Gospel. Blinding them is redundant.
[3:26:16] Speaker 3: Well, maybe the reason they are unrepentant is because they
[3:26:19] Speaker 3: have chosen to remain in the dark. So it's not
[3:26:21] Speaker 3: that there is on top of that the reason they
[3:26:25] Speaker 3: are unrepentant. It's precisely because they are blinded by their
[3:26:28] Speaker 3: own sin.
[3:26:30] Speaker 1: None of the blinded by the God of the world.
[3:26:34] Speaker 3: Ye, by their own sin. They prefer to be blinded
[3:26:38] Speaker 3: by the God of this world.
[3:26:39] Speaker 1: Basically, that's not what it says, though.
[3:26:43] Speaker 3: Ah hmmm, well that as I said, what we say
[3:26:50] Speaker 3: that basically just choose at some degree to basically how
[3:26:54] Speaker 3: but it for that willfully ignorant we say that they
[3:26:58] Speaker 3: are willfully ignorant what I ignorant about the Gospel about
[3:27:04] Speaker 3: God and not of that. So God sends you to
[3:27:07] Speaker 3: hell for being willfully ignorant if you are ignorant of
[3:27:12] Speaker 3: His truth on purpose by your own obstinacy, I'd say so.
[3:27:16] Speaker 3: But if you are invincib then not.
[3:27:20] Speaker 1: Do you think it's justified to punish somebody for all
[3:27:24] Speaker 1: of eternity for being willfully ignorant.
[3:27:28] Speaker 3: Of of God? I think that when one is when
[3:27:33] Speaker 3: one commits a thing like that against God, which will
[3:27:36] Speaker 3: be the scene of unbelief. You made it on that debt?
[3:27:40] Speaker 1: What what's the crime? So in my worldview, like to
[3:27:44] Speaker 1: be just, you have to give punishments that are proportional
[3:27:47] Speaker 1: to the crime. So like, if you committed a really
[3:27:49] Speaker 1: bad crime and caused a lot of horrific things, you
[3:27:52] Speaker 1: should get a like a worse punishment than somebody who
[3:27:55] Speaker 1: like told the white lie.
[3:27:56] Speaker 3: Right, Yes, and I think that talis answer. It's simply
[3:28:01] Speaker 3: that un belief is just that evil. I know that
[3:28:04] Speaker 3: it may be against your intuitions, but that's just. But
[3:28:06] Speaker 3: we'd say, right, but what's evil about it? What's evil
[3:28:10] Speaker 3: about it?
[3:28:11] Speaker 1: So, God, if you ask me, like what's evil about stealing?
[3:28:14] Speaker 1: What's evil about lying? What's evil about punching another human
[3:28:18] Speaker 1: being unprovoked? Like, I can give you an answer for
[3:28:20] Speaker 1: why those things would be evil. But in the Christian worldview,
[3:28:24] Speaker 1: I don't know if you actually have an answer for
[3:28:26] Speaker 1: why it's evil to not believe in worshiping your God.
[3:28:31] Speaker 3: I think that it will be without Again, don't take
[3:28:34] Speaker 3: minus like or top answer because I am not a
[3:28:37] Speaker 3: complete scholar. Thelogian boos It's would be that God is
[3:28:40] Speaker 3: of social eminence and perfection. That's rejecting him is an
[3:28:44] Speaker 3: utmost act of people.
[3:28:45] Speaker 1: Right, But why why is Well?
[3:28:49] Speaker 3: This gets that at the fundamental level what God is.
[3:28:52] Speaker 3: We say that God is supreme and perfect goodness.
[3:28:55] Speaker 1: So if God is supreme, there's nothing I could do
[3:28:58] Speaker 1: to hurt his feelings where.
[3:29:02] Speaker 3: He's impastival, he has no feelings to be hurt.
[3:29:05] Speaker 1: Well, that that is certainly not true. He has all
[3:29:08] Speaker 1: kinds of feelings in the Bible.
[3:29:10] Speaker 3: But oh yeah, we take that those are like analogies.
[3:29:13] Speaker 3: We don't think that he we hold ask Really, I
[3:29:17] Speaker 3: don't know if we hold that God is absolutely impassible,
[3:29:20] Speaker 3: He has no two emotions. All emotions are just the analogies.
[3:29:25] Speaker 1: By yeah, I know, what are the analogies for When
[3:29:28] Speaker 1: it says that God takes the light in something? What
[3:29:31] Speaker 1: does that really mean?
[3:29:33] Speaker 3: That's actually a good question. I have myself not to this,
[3:29:36] Speaker 3: but I don't know for now you say that I
[3:29:39] Speaker 3: don't know.
[3:29:40] Speaker 1: Okay, So why is it that not worshiping this God
[3:29:46] Speaker 1: is such a criminal offense? What's what's the thing about it?
[3:29:50] Speaker 1: What's the harm that I'm causing?
[3:29:53] Speaker 3: Well, I think that's also a fundamental as something on
[3:29:56] Speaker 3: the fundamental level because we will not say the harm
[3:29:59] Speaker 3: per se. It's what makes something even because let's say
[3:30:04] Speaker 3: that sorry, let's say something like okay, yeah, having having
[3:30:13] Speaker 3: child porn do just don't per say harm anyone or.
[3:30:15] Speaker 1: Yes, I think it does. Yeah, thinking about it, the
[3:30:20] Speaker 1: perpetuates the entire industry.
[3:30:24] Speaker 3: I guess it's yes, that that's actually good point. In
[3:30:27] Speaker 3: good point. How about how about vulgarism, voyeurism, Yeah, watching
[3:30:33] Speaker 3: people have sex? Illeally, I think that's.
[3:30:37] Speaker 6: What it is.
[3:30:37] Speaker 1: You mean, being like a peeping tom Yeah, being.
[3:30:41] Speaker 3: Like master Roshie of dragon Ball that stuff.
[3:30:44] Speaker 1: Well, I personally think that, like, privacy has value. And
[3:30:48] Speaker 1: I understand that some people might not believe that privacy
[3:30:50] Speaker 1: has value, but I think that privacy has value because
[3:30:54] Speaker 1: it's like a kin to stealing.
[3:30:59] Speaker 3: Maybe that's well, I really don't know that. I have
[3:31:03] Speaker 3: to study more moral theology. But basically, we as catholicsts
[3:31:07] Speaker 3: or that things have their proper end and that disturbing
[3:31:12] Speaker 3: the end of a thing is greatly, greatly evil, and
[3:31:16] Speaker 3: God as the final end of absolutely all things, is
[3:31:19] Speaker 3: absolutely evil and made it the eternal punishment in hell
[3:31:23] Speaker 3: to reject.
[3:31:25] Speaker 1: Right, So this is this is actually what I'm getting
[3:31:27] Speaker 1: at is like this God, if I don't believe in
[3:31:30] Speaker 1: it and worship it, it will send me hell. Which
[3:31:33] Speaker 1: is a weird thing because I can't figure out why
[3:31:36] Speaker 1: it makes him so mad. Why does me not worshiping
[3:31:40] Speaker 1: this God make him so upset? The whole torture for
[3:31:43] Speaker 1: me for the rest of returnity.
[3:31:45] Speaker 3: Well, it's necessarily upset because we said God has no
[3:31:48] Speaker 3: real feelings. But with this fuel that, I know that
[3:31:51] Speaker 3: the virus speaks about that way. But for the second
[3:31:54] Speaker 3: of the argument, we just simply say that it's simply
[3:31:58] Speaker 3: evil and God has to punish the evil.
[3:32:00] Speaker 1: Right. But I'm trying to figure out why it's evil, Like,
[3:32:03] Speaker 1: so it sounds to me like you believe it's evil
[3:32:05] Speaker 1: just because God said.
[3:32:06] Speaker 3: So, less God said so was, rather because God does
[3:32:10] Speaker 3: the end of all things has lied. I do think maybe, well,
[3:32:15] Speaker 3: we are supposed to worship him that basically because he's
[3:32:20] Speaker 3: because he's our end or you know that tell us
[3:32:23] Speaker 3: of that Do you know what tell us is teleology?
[3:32:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like the end point or the cause of
[3:32:30] Speaker 1: the end point.
[3:32:31] Speaker 3: Right, what it's less and more like the final aristotally
[3:32:35] Speaker 3: say that things have their their end, their proper end,
[3:32:38] Speaker 3: and in this case, the end of the human is
[3:32:41] Speaker 3: to worship God.
[3:32:42] Speaker 1: I will admit that I am why is the question right?
[3:32:46] Speaker 3: Well? By will two of God being the final cause
[3:32:49] Speaker 3: of our things?
[3:32:50] Speaker 1: Yeah, But why is God being the cause of our
[3:32:52] Speaker 1: things need require him needing worship.
[3:32:57] Speaker 3: I would simply say that that's because if he's nature
[3:33:00] Speaker 3: as the supreme good, and are the supreme good as
[3:33:05] Speaker 3: he deserves, he serves to be worshiped. But I will
[3:33:08] Speaker 3: admit again I probably am not giving this srongest best
[3:33:12] Speaker 3: explanation that I can. Then just this will just be
[3:33:15] Speaker 3: the they can simply be God by virtuo of his
[3:33:19] Speaker 3: supreme perfection is then it's the end of all creators,
[3:33:24] Speaker 3: and therefore he the starts worship. Now you might dispute,
[3:33:27] Speaker 3: one of the primitives, might dispute the the let's call
[3:33:32] Speaker 3: it the conclusion that I mean, if God is the
[3:33:35] Speaker 3: creator and of all things, that doesn't make him the
[3:33:39] Speaker 3: the end of all things that to the starts worship.
[3:33:41] Speaker 3: You dispute that. But this for now what I'd say,
[3:33:44] Speaker 3: because again I don't know how many I said it already,
[3:33:46] Speaker 3: but I am not as a throwing theologian, so I
[3:33:49] Speaker 3: probably have not given the greatest answers.
[3:33:51] Speaker 1: No, you're doing a great job, don't worry about it.
[3:33:53] Speaker 1: So I guess this is our hang up, right. So
[3:33:55] Speaker 1: if if one of the premises is that, or even
[3:33:59] Speaker 1: theclusion is that God being the end of all things
[3:34:04] Speaker 1: or the most powerful authority, therefore he deserves worship, I
[3:34:08] Speaker 1: don't see how the conclusion necessarily follows the premise.
[3:34:14] Speaker 3: I can see, well, it could be confusing because the
[3:34:19] Speaker 3: teleology and it's rather a complex thing to analy like
[3:34:23] Speaker 3: the end of things. So for now I just grant
[3:34:25] Speaker 3: that I am not completely able to give you like
[3:34:29] Speaker 3: a systematic answer to this. So I would just give
[3:34:32] Speaker 3: that led that into your mind so that maybe you
[3:34:35] Speaker 3: think about it a little. But for now I cannot
[3:34:37] Speaker 3: say like all of that much. It's like me trying
[3:34:40] Speaker 3: to defend evolution against a younger creation. And I believe
[3:34:45] Speaker 3: in evolution, I cannot like defend it like systematically against
[3:34:49] Speaker 3: the objections they get because I am not a biologist
[3:34:52] Speaker 3: or clogy.
[3:34:53] Speaker 1: Well, let me let me press you a little bit
[3:34:55] Speaker 1: on a passage. Maybe we can talk about because I
[3:35:00] Speaker 1: think that one of the entailments of being all good
[3:35:03] Speaker 1: is that you do need to be able to administer
[3:35:06] Speaker 1: justice properly? Right?
[3:35:10] Speaker 12: Uh?
[3:35:10] Speaker 3: Yes, And I will say that justice is to give
[3:35:12] Speaker 3: to each what is his?
[3:35:14] Speaker 1: Do I agree?
[3:35:16] Speaker 6: Right?
[3:35:16] Speaker 1: And I think administering justice also entails that people shouldn't
[3:35:22] Speaker 1: get punished for crimes they didn't commit.
[3:35:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, hold on, hold on, lem lem are you gonna
[3:35:29] Speaker 3: talk about original scene? I thought that that was what
[3:35:34] Speaker 3: you was gonna Who was going to brabo? Hold on?
[3:35:37] Speaker 3: Come on?
[3:35:38] Speaker 1: Okay, So have you read Deuteronomy before? Uh?
[3:35:43] Speaker 3: Completely?
[3:35:44] Speaker 1: No? Okay?
[3:35:45] Speaker 3: What's the passage?
[3:35:46] Speaker 1: There's a tough one in here in Deuteronomy twenty two. Uh.
[3:35:49] Speaker 1: There's a test that is given to determine if you
[3:35:52] Speaker 1: can execute a woman. It says it's starting in verse thirteen.
[3:35:57] Speaker 1: Suppose a man marries a woman, but after going in
[3:36:00] Speaker 1: to her, dislikes her and makes up charges against her,
[3:36:02] Speaker 1: slandering her by saying, I married this woman, but when
[3:36:05] Speaker 1: I lay with her, I did not find evidence of
[3:36:07] Speaker 1: her virginity. So the goal here, or the purpose here
[3:36:11] Speaker 1: with the intro is saying like, hey, listen, if you
[3:36:12] Speaker 1: lay with your new wife and she obviously doesn't bleed,
[3:36:16] Speaker 1: then you've got evidence that she's not a virgin. Right,
[3:36:20] Speaker 1: uh huh, says The father of the young woman and
[3:36:24] Speaker 1: her mother shall then submit the evidence of the young
[3:36:26] Speaker 1: woman's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate.
[3:36:29] Speaker 1: The father of the young woman shall say to the elders,
[3:36:32] Speaker 1: I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but
[3:36:34] Speaker 1: he dislikes her, and now he has made up charges
[3:36:37] Speaker 1: against her, saying I did not find evidence of your
[3:36:40] Speaker 1: daughter's virginity. But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.
[3:36:44] Speaker 1: Then they shall spread out the cloth before the elders
[3:36:48] Speaker 1: of the town. Okay, So they go to trial, and
[3:36:52] Speaker 1: God says, when you get the trial, spread out the
[3:36:56] Speaker 1: cloth as proof of whether or not she he bled,
[3:37:00] Speaker 1: whether or not she was actually a virgin. Follow so far, yes, yes, yes, Okay.
[3:37:09] Speaker 1: Now if it turns out there's blood on the cloth,
[3:37:11] Speaker 1: the man gets fined, right, says the elders of the
[3:37:14] Speaker 1: town shall take the man and punish him. They'll find
[3:37:16] Speaker 1: him one hundred chuckles, so on and so forth. But
[3:37:18] Speaker 1: it says, if however, the charge is true, that evidence
[3:37:21] Speaker 1: of the young woman's virginity was not found, then that
[3:37:24] Speaker 1: should bring out bring the young woman out to the
[3:37:28] Speaker 1: entrance of her father's house, and the men of her
[3:37:29] Speaker 1: town shall stone her to death because she's committed a
[3:37:32] Speaker 1: disgraceful act in Israel by prostituting herself in her father's house.
[3:37:35] Speaker 1: So basically, what this passage is saying is that if
[3:37:39] Speaker 1: your wife doesn't bleed on the wedding night and she
[3:37:43] Speaker 1: was sold as a virgin, then you can have her executed,
[3:37:48] Speaker 1: provided that you have a sheet with no blood on it.
[3:37:52] Speaker 6: Hmm.
[3:37:52] Speaker 3: This is actually this really comes down to like the
[3:37:55] Speaker 3: nature of what the Euteronomy is. Because I know guys
[3:37:58] Speaker 3: who will say and it's good, we say that like
[3:38:01] Speaker 3: not everything in the Torah, and a lot of things
[3:38:04] Speaker 3: were not really followed, so that could be at that
[3:38:06] Speaker 3: simply said that it is not really an increased in
[3:38:09] Speaker 3: love and that they on the ground reality it was
[3:38:11] Speaker 3: just different. This would be the easy, easy way out.
[3:38:14] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not asking a theological question. Uh, what I'm
[3:38:17] Speaker 1: asking is specifically whether or not this command was good
[3:38:21] Speaker 1: even if it only applied to the Jews back then.
[3:38:24] Speaker 1: Was this a good commandment?
[3:38:26] Speaker 3: I know my disputation was that maybe this was not
[3:38:30] Speaker 3: having an actual commandment to be followed us part of
[3:38:32] Speaker 3: the law.
[3:38:33] Speaker 1: But yes, why would you think that God didn't give
[3:38:39] Speaker 1: this command?
[3:38:42] Speaker 3: I think he is something that I have heard that
[3:38:45] Speaker 3: not everything in the law was actually followed in the
[3:38:48] Speaker 3: underground realities. But I personally I'm not entirely shure. But
[3:38:53] Speaker 3: maybe I think that could be said is that there
[3:38:57] Speaker 3: was an assumption that in this case the woman was
[3:39:00] Speaker 3: indeed lying about her virginity. So this one wasically that
[3:39:03] Speaker 3: if you lie about your virginity, you get stunned. Now
[3:39:06] Speaker 3: that request to me is uh, not having a shit
[3:39:11] Speaker 3: with blood sufficient, I mean for that, which, yeah, that's
[3:39:14] Speaker 3: that's really the issue here, and I'm not to be sure.
[3:39:20] Speaker 1: Let's let's tackle the first point. The command came from God,
[3:39:24] Speaker 1: Moses said, So the day he gave the command, he
[3:39:27] Speaker 1: gave all these commands in one day, according to Deuteronomy.
[3:39:30] Speaker 1: And it says in Deuteronomy six. Now this is the
[3:39:32] Speaker 1: commandment and the statutes and ordinances that the lords your
[3:39:35] Speaker 1: God charged me to teach you uh to observe in
[3:39:39] Speaker 1: the land that you were about to cross into occupy. Right.
[3:39:42] Speaker 1: So all the laws in Deuteronomy are given by Moses
[3:39:46] Speaker 1: for the Israelites to follow in the Promised Land. Right.
[3:39:50] Speaker 1: So when we get to Deuteronomy twenty two. We run
[3:39:53] Speaker 1: up on the problem, which is God gives them the
[3:39:56] Speaker 1: commandment that they can stone the woman who doesn't bleed
[3:39:59] Speaker 1: on the sheep. And you and I both know that
[3:40:02] Speaker 1: not all women actually bleed the first time they engage
[3:40:05] Speaker 1: in copulation.
[3:40:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, right, So well, I have not seen
[3:40:11] Speaker 3: by experience, but I know that that's true.
[3:40:14] Speaker 1: Yeah. Scientifically, in the modern age, we've determined that it's
[3:40:18] Speaker 1: it's roughly just a hair under fifty percent. But we
[3:40:22] Speaker 1: have actually a textual evidence from the ancient Greeks and
[3:40:25] Speaker 1: even from the ancient Jewish rabbis, certainly way after this
[3:40:29] Speaker 1: law was given, demonstrating that a lot of women didn't
[3:40:32] Speaker 1: actually bleed. In fact, in quite a few countries, women
[3:40:36] Speaker 1: would actually have like backup plans to make sure that
[3:40:40] Speaker 1: they did bleed, just in case, just in case something
[3:40:44] Speaker 1: went wrong. So there were women that would purposely time
[3:40:49] Speaker 1: the feast, the wedding feast. When they would consummate the wedding,
[3:40:53] Speaker 1: they would purposely time it so that it would coincide
[3:40:56] Speaker 1: with their monthly flow. Some of them would actually bring
[3:41:00] Speaker 1: little packets of pigs blood with them and make sure
[3:41:03] Speaker 1: that they put they break it like a little bladder
[3:41:05] Speaker 1: on the sheet women in the ancient world. This is
[3:41:08] Speaker 1: first of all, the Bible isn't the only thing that
[3:41:10] Speaker 1: does this. But women in the ancient world were terrified
[3:41:13] Speaker 1: of this because they knew that there's a possibility that
[3:41:16] Speaker 1: they could not bleed even though they were telling the truth. Right,
[3:41:19] Speaker 1: So I think it's really problematic that, like the god
[3:41:23] Speaker 1: of the universe didn't know this. If there was even
[3:41:26] Speaker 1: a chance that one innocent woman would be stoned, this
[3:41:30] Speaker 1: law is horrific.
[3:41:39] Speaker 3: Point Regaldi ad this excerpt, and I personally, I'm not
[3:41:42] Speaker 3: sure how to answer it. So for now I regranted
[3:41:44] Speaker 3: to you enough.
[3:41:47] Speaker 1: So yeah, what's that? No?
[3:41:51] Speaker 3: Yes, did you continue? I was going to say one
[3:41:54] Speaker 3: last thing before. Oh, I wanted to speak about another topic.
[3:41:57] Speaker 3: But if you wanted to say something.
[3:42:00] Speaker 1: I mean, typically I don't let the guests derail the conversation,
[3:42:03] Speaker 1: but you've been kind enough, I'm more than happy to oblige.
[3:42:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just that when I came here, I actually
[3:42:10] Speaker 3: came here because I have two issues I want. I
[3:42:13] Speaker 3: started with the last year, where.
[3:42:16] Speaker 1: Do you go?
[3:42:18] Speaker 3: Sorry, if you're let me wait a second, because I
[3:42:21] Speaker 3: am at two percent and I need my bathat to
[3:42:23] Speaker 3: check my phone. So wait a second, Yeah, okay, where
[3:42:31] Speaker 3: was it? Okay, I think that's uh huh okay, uh
[3:42:43] Speaker 3: um hm No, I'm not round run Okay, I have
[3:43:03] Speaker 3: the cable.
[3:43:06] Speaker 7: Uh huh.
[3:43:09] Speaker 3: Now I connect here?
[3:43:13] Speaker 6: Great?
[3:43:13] Speaker 3: Great, quick, great quick? Uh okay, I save it. I
[3:43:19] Speaker 3: have to pay more attention to my battery. So the
[3:43:24] Speaker 3: authornation I want to talk about it. Another of your conversations.
[3:43:28] Speaker 1: It went to life lost again.
[3:43:32] Speaker 3: Sorry in another one of your conversations. Just say that,
[3:43:36] Speaker 3: like I'm one one one regarding the war was God?
[3:43:40] Speaker 3: That was like to gods? I just say that, Just
[3:43:43] Speaker 3: say that, right.
[3:43:44] Speaker 1: Well, I think the Trinity is irrational. So I've got
[3:43:48] Speaker 1: an argument against the Trinity. I think the Trinity fails.
[3:43:52] Speaker 1: And every Christian I've ever talked to is like bound
[3:43:56] Speaker 1: and determined to prove that the Trinity isn't illogical and
[3:44:00] Speaker 1: it just is isological.
[3:44:03] Speaker 3: Well, I will neroonically say that that really depends like
[3:44:08] Speaker 3: what system of logic that saying, because I have been
[3:44:11] Speaker 3: really into the well, not really really like reading a
[3:44:14] Speaker 3: lot of stuff, but I've been stepping a bit into
[3:44:16] Speaker 3: the conversation of threeity models. I don't know if you have.
[3:44:21] Speaker 3: But I seen when seeing you know what analytics, analytic
[3:44:25] Speaker 3: philosophy and theology is no classically the modern type of philosophy.
[3:44:31] Speaker 3: And when I see analytic philosophy engage with like scholastic philosophy,
[3:44:35] Speaker 3: which is what I subscribe to, I see that there
[3:44:39] Speaker 3: are a lot a lot of different especially with regards
[3:44:41] Speaker 3: to identity. And I can see and I could completely
[3:44:44] Speaker 3: consider that like in modern conceptions of logic. But what
[3:44:48] Speaker 3: is classical logic?
[3:44:51] Speaker 4: Right?
[3:44:51] Speaker 1: That's my claim is that the trinity is a violation
[3:44:56] Speaker 1: of the classical laws of logic. If there are other
[3:44:59] Speaker 1: laws of logic I should adopt instead, I don't know
[3:45:02] Speaker 1: of them.
[3:45:04] Speaker 3: Well, it's less. It's more like the interpretations of the
[3:45:07] Speaker 3: loss of logic, especially the law of identity.
[3:45:10] Speaker 6: Do you know about that? Yeah?
[3:45:13] Speaker 3: Yeah, and well basically so many more. I know the
[3:45:17] Speaker 3: typical which is like, well, if the Father is identical
[3:45:20] Speaker 3: to God and the Son is identical to God, and
[3:45:23] Speaker 3: identity is transitive, so not the Father be identical to
[3:45:26] Speaker 3: the Sun. And this is how modern logic operates. Well,
[3:45:29] Speaker 3: what we diffuse actually, which is that simply say that
[3:45:33] Speaker 3: modern logic is it is not wrong per SEPs More like,
[3:45:38] Speaker 3: don't bet down, it's not this nuancet And we said
[3:45:42] Speaker 3: that now, actually two things can be identical to a
[3:45:44] Speaker 3: third thing and still be really distinguished. And it's actually
[3:45:47] Speaker 3: how after the funny thing is that likeness? You know
[3:45:50] Speaker 3: how likeness is that great philosophy, mathematicians, et cetera.
[3:45:53] Speaker 1: I couldn't make out the word he said, who.
[3:45:57] Speaker 3: Like, let meybody in the shot.
[3:46:04] Speaker 7: Maybe so.
[3:46:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've heard the name. I don't know a
[3:46:09] Speaker 1: single thing about the person.
[3:46:11] Speaker 3: He's basically one of the greatest philosophers of the blah
[3:46:15] Speaker 3: blah mathematicians. He was a great polymath polymath basically he
[3:46:18] Speaker 3: did absolutely anything. He actually developed calculus along Saint Newton,
[3:46:24] Speaker 3: but not along side but at the same time.
[3:46:28] Speaker 1: Right, But that's anything, you actually solved the problem. So
[3:46:30] Speaker 1: do you want to walk through the trinity?
[3:46:33] Speaker 3: Yeah? Sorry, sorry sorry, As my parents sometimes I derail is.
[3:46:38] Speaker 3: I think that I sometimes do. But basically we say
[3:46:41] Speaker 3: that in God there is okay, first and foremost, there
[3:46:46] Speaker 3: is the divine essence or the divine nature or the
[3:46:48] Speaker 3: divine being.
[3:46:49] Speaker 1: Do you think there's a difference between essence and nature?
[3:46:54] Speaker 3: Well, that's actually good point of question, not per set
[3:46:58] Speaker 3: now we just say that the divine essence is the
[3:47:00] Speaker 3: one the absolute reality.
[3:47:02] Speaker 1: That God is.
[3:47:03] Speaker 3: That's what the divince is, the absolute reality, like the identity. Yeah,
[3:47:15] Speaker 3: well we said that there is a divine being. We're
[3:47:18] Speaker 3: just like there's supreme reality of nipotent omission, blah blah,
[3:47:23] Speaker 3: and within this divine reality there is this is the
[3:47:27] Speaker 3: this is the one God. In fact, we said that
[3:47:29] Speaker 3: this divine reality is the is the one God. That's
[3:47:32] Speaker 3: why there is one God now within this reality.
[3:47:36] Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to figure what you mean by
[3:47:37] Speaker 1: essence because like my understanding of essence is like like
[3:47:43] Speaker 1: character characteristics or qualities that are intrinsic to something's identity. Right,
[3:47:50] Speaker 1: So for example, like, uh, the essence of a coffee
[3:47:55] Speaker 1: mug is a collection of characteristics and quality the is
[3:48:00] Speaker 1: that are indistinguishable before something can be identified as a
[3:48:04] Speaker 1: coffee mug. Like That's how I'm thinking of essence. If
[3:48:07] Speaker 1: there's a different way of thinking of essencece, I don't
[3:48:09] Speaker 1: know what it is.
[3:48:11] Speaker 3: Wow, Well, what kind of agree with that? We say
[3:48:15] Speaker 3: that essence is really the thing that the characteristics that
[3:48:20] Speaker 3: thing is. But the thing with God is that his essence.
[3:48:24] Speaker 3: We say that his essence is identical to his existence.
[3:48:27] Speaker 3: With his essence is to exist, so it's an actual thing.
[3:48:33] Speaker 1: Can you have one hundred percent of God's divine essence
[3:48:38] Speaker 1: and be distinct from him?
[3:48:42] Speaker 3: Can you have one hundred percent of God's essence?
[3:48:46] Speaker 6: And what do you mean by that?
[3:48:47] Speaker 3: Exactly?
[3:48:49] Speaker 1: To have one hundred percent of God's characteristics implies that
[3:48:52] Speaker 1: there's no distinction between you and God because you have
[3:48:55] Speaker 1: all of God's characteristics. You're the presence. Yea.
[3:49:00] Speaker 3: We think that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are identified
[3:49:04] Speaker 3: with that same reality, which is God.
[3:49:06] Speaker 1: That's right, So you would say that Jesus is one
[3:49:09] Speaker 1: hundred percent.
[3:49:09] Speaker 3: God, right, sort of, we only let the language of percent,
[3:49:14] Speaker 3: but we say that the divine Nato, which is Father's
[3:49:17] Speaker 3: son and son, Jesus Christ and his Holy Spirit is
[3:49:21] Speaker 3: they are all that one natal right.
[3:49:23] Speaker 1: But is Jesus one hundred percent God or only eighty
[3:49:27] Speaker 1: percent God only?
[3:49:29] Speaker 13: And no?
[3:49:30] Speaker 3: He is completely really identical to the one divine essence.
[3:49:35] Speaker 1: There you go. So if Jesus is identical to the
[3:49:37] Speaker 1: divine essence, then you must conclude that Jesus would have
[3:49:41] Speaker 1: to have all of the characteristics that God has.
[3:49:45] Speaker 3: He has at the absolute level because we think that
[3:49:47] Speaker 3: there are there are two levels. Of these two levels,
[3:49:50] Speaker 3: there is the absolute reality, and then there are the
[3:49:53] Speaker 3: three relative realities that exists in God. And I will
[3:49:57] Speaker 3: have to explain a little bit of this. So wait
[3:49:59] Speaker 3: a second, Well, I mean, I mean explained first in
[3:50:02] Speaker 3: the eve any sense, there is all the absolute perfections.
[3:50:05] Speaker 6: There is God's.
[3:50:08] Speaker 3: Intellect, He's will, he's massive justice, his powers, he's gonnah
[3:50:12] Speaker 3: blah blah blah.
[3:50:13] Speaker 1: Now God has did you say will too?
[3:50:16] Speaker 6: Will? Will?
[3:50:17] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[3:50:17] Speaker 6: Will?
[3:50:18] Speaker 1: Does Jesus have the same divine essence as God?
[3:50:23] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[3:50:25] Speaker 1: So they only have one will between the two of them.
[3:50:28] Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, there is only one will in the in
[3:50:30] Speaker 3: the trinity.
[3:50:31] Speaker 1: So then Jesus tied in the garden when he said
[3:50:34] Speaker 1: your will be done, not mine.
[3:50:36] Speaker 3: That's actually a firm fact, is that we think that
[3:50:39] Speaker 3: Jesus of Nasa it has two wills one so Jesus
[3:50:43] Speaker 3: two wills.
[3:50:45] Speaker 1: Do we not know that?
[3:50:46] Speaker 3: I thought that was pretty common knowless, No, no, not,
[3:50:51] Speaker 3: but but traditionally tradition and Christian theology.
[3:50:53] Speaker 1: Because Jesus have like split personality.
[3:50:59] Speaker 3: I really or not clearly tell you what a personality
[3:51:03] Speaker 3: is with like in the scholastic sense, I would say
[3:51:07] Speaker 3: that Jesus has two minds, the divine mind and the
[3:51:10] Speaker 3: human mind.
[3:51:10] Speaker 1: He has two minds. Are the odds with each other?
[3:51:14] Speaker 3: Now they are in perfect harmony?
[3:51:15] Speaker 1: Do they desire the same things? Ah?
[3:51:20] Speaker 3: In one Well, if the desire can be taken in
[3:51:23] Speaker 3: like will the same things. And in jest they will
[3:51:26] Speaker 3: the same things. And the others are like passions and not.
[3:51:29] Speaker 3: The divine nature has no passions. Only He's human nature
[3:51:32] Speaker 3: has passions.
[3:51:34] Speaker 1: So Jesus has passions, but God doesn't.
[3:51:38] Speaker 3: Well in his divine in his human nature, he has
[3:51:41] Speaker 3: passions in his.
[3:51:43] Speaker 6: He does not.
[3:51:43] Speaker 1: So Jesus has qualities that God doesn't have.
[3:51:47] Speaker 3: He's human nat or.
[3:51:48] Speaker 1: Yes, what do you say that again? Allow Jesus possesses
[3:51:53] Speaker 1: qualities that God doesn't have.
[3:51:56] Speaker 3: Well, science, God is the divine nat or He does
[3:51:59] Speaker 3: have quiet in his human nature that the divine nato
[3:52:03] Speaker 3: doesn't have.
[3:52:05] Speaker 1: So God has parts. Part of God has qualities that
[3:52:08] Speaker 1: are different from another part of God.
[3:52:11] Speaker 3: We don't think that like, Okay, this it gets complex.
[3:52:17] Speaker 1: We don't Yeah theological, Yeah, if it was logical, you
[3:52:20] Speaker 1: wouldn't have to do all the tap dancing.
[3:52:22] Speaker 3: Well, I don't think that I'm step dancing. But with
[3:52:27] Speaker 3: what do you mean by a part actually, because that's
[3:52:29] Speaker 3: actually a thing that has to be the finest.
[3:52:32] Speaker 1: Okay, So if Jesus and the Father have characteristics that
[3:52:37] Speaker 1: are even one percent different, that means God has parts.
[3:52:44] Speaker 3: What we were saying is that science there are two
[3:52:47] Speaker 3: natos in Christ. The predications of like passions and all
[3:52:50] Speaker 3: of that stuff only applied to the human native.
[3:52:53] Speaker 1: Right. So God has parts.
[3:52:54] Speaker 3: He's got part God nature, part human nature. It is
[3:52:58] Speaker 3: that this is this is not predicated to the divine atal.
[3:53:04] Speaker 3: This is only about the person of the Sun and
[3:53:06] Speaker 3: the and the human nato.
[3:53:08] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:53:08] Speaker 1: But if God has two natures, that means one of
[3:53:11] Speaker 1: those natures is human like the hyposthetic union. Right, one
[3:53:15] Speaker 1: nature is human, one nature is God, which means God
[3:53:19] Speaker 1: has parts.
[3:53:21] Speaker 3: Not because the human natal is not like united to
[3:53:24] Speaker 3: the divine natal per se.
[3:53:26] Speaker 1: But that's the hyposthetic union.
[3:53:28] Speaker 3: No, it is united to the hypostasis of Christ, of Jus,
[3:53:33] Speaker 3: of the Sun the Sun had You're a Catholic, Yes,
[3:53:39] Speaker 3: I'm a Catholic.
[3:53:39] Speaker 1: You don't believe in the hyposthetic union.
[3:53:42] Speaker 3: Yes, I do believe in the hyposthetic union. But what
[3:53:44] Speaker 3: I'm saying is that in the hypostatic hyposthetic union, the
[3:53:48] Speaker 3: human nature is united to the hypostasis of the sun,
[3:53:52] Speaker 3: hyposthesis of the sun, not to like the divine natures.
[3:53:58] Speaker 1: Yes, so if Jesus has two natures, that means there
[3:54:03] Speaker 1: are at least two parts.
[3:54:07] Speaker 3: A two parts. That's actually a good question with regards
[3:54:10] Speaker 3: to whether, like the sun is the hypostasis of the
[3:54:16] Speaker 3: Sun is composite. If there is composition in there, is
[3:54:22] Speaker 3: that really the principle by you mean by party, by part,
[3:54:24] Speaker 3: do you mean like there is the son here there
[3:54:28] Speaker 3: is the human nator, which is united to a son,
[3:54:31] Speaker 3: and then there is the divine nator, which is really
[3:54:33] Speaker 3: identified to a son. Because I remember that like the
[3:54:36] Speaker 3: human nator does not stand to the hypostasis of the
[3:54:40] Speaker 3: Sun like the divinator.
[3:54:41] Speaker 1: Right, But the minute you mentioned Jesus is human nature
[3:54:46] Speaker 1: being distinct from the nature of God, You've now got
[3:54:50] Speaker 1: you've got two different things, huh so, and so now
[3:54:54] Speaker 1: God has parts.
[3:54:56] Speaker 3: Well, if you by part do you mean that like
[3:54:59] Speaker 3: there is a really think think to united to a hypostasis.
[3:55:03] Speaker 3: If that is a part to you, I would guess
[3:55:06] Speaker 3: so that that's a part to you. But I will
[3:55:08] Speaker 3: actually will not describe it as that. But if you
[3:55:11] Speaker 3: if your language of parts includes that, then I.
[3:55:14] Speaker 1: Guess, so, well, what is the part? So like, what
[3:55:17] Speaker 1: what's the differentiation between my pop can and the tab
[3:55:24] Speaker 1: at the top of the top of the can? What's
[3:55:26] Speaker 1: the distinction between the two?
[3:55:28] Speaker 3: They are in a part whole relation.
[3:55:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the part whole relation.
[3:55:33] Speaker 6: Right.
[3:55:33] Speaker 1: So, for example, if Jesus has two natures, that means
[3:55:39] Speaker 1: one of those natures or even both of them, are
[3:55:42] Speaker 1: part of a.
[3:55:42] Speaker 3: Whole technically signs Jesus. The hypothesis of the sun is
[3:55:49] Speaker 3: really identical to the divinator. There will be no composition
[3:55:53] Speaker 3: in that. But we're gonna say that there is in
[3:55:55] Speaker 3: the level of hyposthesis.
[3:55:56] Speaker 1: There is. But Jesus can't be identical to the divine
[3:56:00] Speaker 1: nature because Jesus lacks some of the qualities of the
[3:56:02] Speaker 1: divine nature. Jesus lacks omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresence. Okay, the hypothesis
[3:56:09] Speaker 1: of the Sun is identical to the divinator. Now the
[3:56:13] Speaker 1: human nator. That's another divid So you say of nasion.
[3:56:16] Speaker 1: But now you've got two parts. You've got one part
[3:56:19] Speaker 1: of God that lacks the qualities of the other part
[3:56:23] Speaker 1: of God, like the the flesh of Jesus is a
[3:56:26] Speaker 1: part of God that lacks qualities of the overall godhead. Uh,
[3:56:36] Speaker 1: which means Jesus is Jesus was only part God. He's
[3:56:41] Speaker 1: part He's a piece of God.
[3:56:46] Speaker 6: Uh.
[3:56:47] Speaker 3: Piece of But when you say Jesus, do you mean
[3:56:49] Speaker 3: like the divine the human Nato? The human the human Nato.
[3:56:54] Speaker 3: That's what you're calling Jesus.
[3:56:56] Speaker 1: I mean, it's obviously a union between the human nature
[3:57:00] Speaker 1: and the God. But when I say Jesus, I'm not
[3:57:02] Speaker 1: saying just the spirit of Jesus or just the flush Jesus.
[3:57:06] Speaker 1: I'm saying the Jesus we have in the New Testament.
[3:57:09] Speaker 1: That that Jesus.
[3:57:10] Speaker 3: When that the issues will be God, the Son bank
[3:57:16] Speaker 3: seeing us well, the human nature of God, the Son
[3:57:19] Speaker 3: being Sina interacted with. I didn't I didn't hear you
[3:57:23] Speaker 3: said it again, The human nature of God, the Son
[3:57:27] Speaker 3: being seen and interacted with. That's what we see in
[3:57:29] Speaker 3: the New Testament.
[3:57:30] Speaker 1: Right. But if God, but God is part human nature
[3:57:34] Speaker 1: and part God nature, that means God has parts.
[3:57:39] Speaker 3: It's what happens is that we don't predicate like the
[3:57:43] Speaker 3: we don't when we say that the Son is united
[3:57:46] Speaker 3: to the But see we don't say that like the
[3:57:50] Speaker 3: divine Essence became incarnate, only the Son.
[3:57:52] Speaker 1: To be sure, you cannot create a distinction within God
[3:57:56] Speaker 1: without creating parts. It's impossible. The definition of a part
[3:58:00] Speaker 1: starts with distinction. Like for example, if I say there's
[3:58:04] Speaker 1: a distinction in my body. My body is a whole, right,
[3:58:08] Speaker 1: but there's a distinction between my foot and my hand. Well,
[3:58:11] Speaker 1: those are now two parts because I've made a distinction
[3:58:13] Speaker 1: between them. Right. So the minute you make a distinction
[3:58:16] Speaker 1: between Jesus and the Father, you've now created parts.
[3:58:21] Speaker 3: Okay, okay, So do you think that a distinction considered parts?
[3:58:25] Speaker 1: A distinction is the dividing marker of parts? Okay?
[3:58:30] Speaker 3: So do you think that if there is a distinction
[3:58:32] Speaker 3: between two things.
[3:58:33] Speaker 1: They are in a part, then there can't be any
[3:58:37] Speaker 1: distinction within God further to not be parts.
[3:58:42] Speaker 3: Okay, Well, if that's your definition of parts, then I
[3:58:46] Speaker 3: would simply conceive that God has parts on that definition,
[3:58:49] Speaker 3: which simply it's a tradition. I will reject that definition.
[3:58:54] Speaker 1: Well, what's your definition of a part.
[3:58:57] Speaker 3: Really distincting united to another thing? Which he is really
[3:59:00] Speaker 3: distinct under the aspect of the real distinction.
[3:59:03] Speaker 1: I don't think that answered the question or I didn't
[3:59:05] Speaker 1: hear you correctly, Like, what do you think the word
[3:59:08] Speaker 1: part means?
[3:59:09] Speaker 3: Okay, we have a really distinct thing thing and that
[3:59:14] Speaker 3: thing is united to another really distinct thing and that's
[3:59:18] Speaker 3: and then they are parts like they do have ah my.
[3:59:25] Speaker 6: Death. Yea.
[3:59:27] Speaker 1: A part is defined by anything with segments. So even
[3:59:31] Speaker 1: if you have one thing, if there's segments in the thing,
[3:59:35] Speaker 1: if it's not entirely homogeneous, then you have parts.
[3:59:40] Speaker 3: Well, God is not extended in matters, so he doesn't have.
[3:59:44] Speaker 1: Like Well, you can keep saying it, but it can't
[3:59:47] Speaker 1: be true. If Jesus is matter. Jesus's body was matter,
[3:59:51] Speaker 1: that means part of God was matter and part of
[3:59:53] Speaker 1: God wasn't that means Jesus is a part of God
[3:59:56] Speaker 1: or Jesus is part God.
[4:00:01] Speaker 3: Wow, this really is getting complicated.
[4:00:03] Speaker 1: Huh Right, So I think this is where it's going
[4:00:05] Speaker 1: to get hung up, right, is because I'm giving you
[4:00:07] Speaker 1: like clear definitions of words, and how it fails and
[4:00:11] Speaker 1: like when I say that God has parts, I keep
[4:00:15] Speaker 1: hearing back, well, God doesn't have parts. Well the definitionly speaking,
[4:00:19] Speaker 1: he does based on the definition of parts unless there's
[4:00:22] Speaker 1: an alternative definition.
[4:00:25] Speaker 3: Well again, what that came the answer? What we'll say
[4:00:30] Speaker 3: is that because you don't know that Catholic theologians even
[4:00:35] Speaker 3: that like extremely serious about divine simplicity, do say that
[4:00:39] Speaker 3: God has distinctions?
[4:00:40] Speaker 1: I know that's the problem. If there's any distinction within God,
[4:00:44] Speaker 1: that means there are parts that that's what it means
[4:00:46] Speaker 1: to segment something.
[4:00:48] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but when they speak about parts, they don't
[4:00:52] Speaker 3: mean it in your sense.
[4:00:53] Speaker 1: I was, I mean, what do they mean? What are
[4:00:56] Speaker 1: they when they say part? What is the part?
[4:00:59] Speaker 3: Well, you will basically be like something like a part this? Okay,
[4:01:03] Speaker 3: do you know what? Do wr onto? Some things got
[4:01:06] Speaker 3: in distinction, but would say that it has to be
[4:01:08] Speaker 3: like ah, reality distinction, which is not distinction between reality like.
[4:01:13] Speaker 1: I'm talking about about. I'm talking about distinctions in nature. Right,
[4:01:18] Speaker 1: So if God has two natures, by definition, he has
[4:01:20] Speaker 1: two different parts. The nature is one part and the
[4:01:23] Speaker 1: second nature is another part.
[4:01:26] Speaker 3: Well, the entire divines, the entire god Head does not
[4:01:29] Speaker 3: have to Nature's only that's on.
[4:01:31] Speaker 1: But if if Jesus is one hundred percent God and
[4:01:35] Speaker 1: Jesus has two natures, that means God has at least
[4:01:37] Speaker 1: two natures.
[4:01:44] Speaker 14: I know.
[4:01:45] Speaker 1: I can go on this carousel all day long. I've
[4:01:47] Speaker 1: done it before, Like it always ends in the same way.
[4:01:51] Speaker 1: At some point you just have to admit that the
[4:01:53] Speaker 1: classical laws of logic can't account for the trinity and
[4:01:57] Speaker 1: just say it's a mystery.
[4:02:00] Speaker 3: Well, technically, I indeed say that modern logic can't account
[4:02:04] Speaker 3: for the trinity. Because the one thing is that most
[4:02:07] Speaker 3: of modern logic, and this might be like a little
[4:02:09] Speaker 3: bit of a sideway, but most of modern logic claims
[4:02:12] Speaker 3: to follow Likeness and his law of identity that if
[4:02:15] Speaker 3: two things are identical to a third thing, they identical
[4:02:17] Speaker 3: to each other. The finitey thing is that Lightness himself
[4:02:20] Speaker 3: said that, like, that law does not apply.
[4:02:23] Speaker 6: To a trinity.
[4:02:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that too. Yeah, if I believe
[4:02:27] Speaker 1: in something illogical, I would say that it didn't apply
[4:02:29] Speaker 1: to this a logical thing.
[4:02:31] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, technically seem not saying that doesn't apply an
[4:02:34] Speaker 3: absolute set would like it doesn't destroy it. Basically, because okay,
[4:02:39] Speaker 3: I actually had to have to explain the trinity, but
[4:02:42] Speaker 3: because we have not even gotten too that, okay, let
[4:02:44] Speaker 3: me try to explain that a little. So basically, do
[4:02:49] Speaker 3: you remember the divine essence, the event reality blah blah,
[4:02:52] Speaker 3: that has all the absolute uh and that and that's
[4:02:55] Speaker 3: and those guys.
[4:02:56] Speaker 1: That uh uh.
[4:03:02] Speaker 3: Cyber what.
[4:03:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just coming up to hang out.
[4:03:07] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, so let me continue, please. So basically, there
[4:03:13] Speaker 3: is the the divine pain being, and then in this
[4:03:18] Speaker 3: being there are two faculties intellect and will Okay, okay,
[4:03:24] Speaker 3: eduard dilemma, let me explain it. Sorry, I commented, But
[4:03:29] Speaker 3: in God there are two faculties intellect and will you know.
[4:03:32] Speaker 1: That, right? But Jesus has has a separate intellect.
[4:03:35] Speaker 3: And will well in his human nature. But let me
[4:03:39] Speaker 3: I'm now, let's let's then after that, I.
[4:03:43] Speaker 1: Most, does God's nature change? God?
[4:03:47] Speaker 3: Does God's nature change?
[4:03:49] Speaker 1: And okay, so there's no Jesus nature.
[4:03:53] Speaker 3: Then Jesus nature is not like a change in the
[4:03:59] Speaker 3: divine neator. It's more like a human nature gains a
[4:04:01] Speaker 3: relation to the second person.
[4:04:03] Speaker 1: Of the trinity. So God has disposable parts.
[4:04:07] Speaker 3: This possible part. No, it's like the human nature gains
[4:04:11] Speaker 3: that relation to the second person of the trinity, not
[4:04:13] Speaker 3: like a change in.
[4:04:15] Speaker 1: The But is Jesus still in the flesh right now?
[4:04:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, he's in the flesh, so he yes, he
[4:04:27] Speaker 3: will be for our eraternity, so fast something.
[4:04:30] Speaker 1: I love it. No, no, go, this is the right answer.
[4:04:33] Speaker 9: I am.
[4:04:34] Speaker 1: I've never been more tickled for somebody to give me
[4:04:37] Speaker 1: the right answer on this. I agree according to the
[4:04:40] Speaker 1: Bible and most Catholic theologians I've read, Jesus is still
[4:04:44] Speaker 1: in the flesh.
[4:04:46] Speaker 3: Yeah why wait wait wait wait wait wait? Are there
[4:04:49] Speaker 3: guys sorry, are there guys who say the other way?
[4:04:55] Speaker 1: Cyber?
[4:04:57] Speaker 3: Are there guys who say otherwise that like Jesus is
[4:04:59] Speaker 3: not longer in the flesh?
[4:05:01] Speaker 6: Oh?
[4:05:01] Speaker 1: Yes, lots of people.
[4:05:02] Speaker 6: Yep, what that?
[4:05:06] Speaker 3: Have these guys done the right revelation?
[4:05:08] Speaker 1: Almost almost no Protestants subscribe to Jesus still being in
[4:05:12] Speaker 1: the flesh. Almost all the Protestants fucked this one up.
[4:05:16] Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think that that's futurely horrific in my opinion,
[4:05:20] Speaker 3: because the.
[4:05:22] Speaker 1: Point of the can I tell you why why? Because
[4:05:28] Speaker 1: I think that Jesus can't have a location if he's
[4:05:33] Speaker 1: still in the flesh, Because if he's not here on
[4:05:34] Speaker 1: the earth, that means he must be like in outer
[4:05:37] Speaker 1: space or in an immaterial universe. So they believe that
[4:05:40] Speaker 1: God is living in an alternative immaterial universe, and they
[4:05:45] Speaker 1: would find it weird to believe that there's an immaterial
[4:05:49] Speaker 1: universe where there's a human being in the flesh.
[4:05:54] Speaker 3: So do they don't believe that in the resurrection of
[4:05:57] Speaker 3: the body.
[4:05:58] Speaker 1: I listen, they do. I'm just and that's how they
[4:06:00] Speaker 1: justify it. I don't think it's a good justification. I
[4:06:03] Speaker 1: think it's silly. I agree with you. I think Jesus,
[4:06:05] Speaker 1: according to the Bible, is still in the flesh. I
[4:06:07] Speaker 1: think the part where you and I disagree is that,
[4:06:10] Speaker 1: according to the Bible, Jesus being in the flesh is
[4:06:13] Speaker 1: just up in the clouds somewhere. The heaven, according to
[4:06:16] Speaker 1: the Bible, is just up where the clouds are. The
[4:06:18] Speaker 1: Bible has no conception of outer space.
[4:06:22] Speaker 3: Well, I think that that's just like a metaphor to
[4:06:24] Speaker 3: speak about it. Yeah, because they have language, they have
[4:06:28] Speaker 3: no lang.
[4:06:30] Speaker 1: I know I would say that too. Yeah.
[4:06:33] Speaker 3: But okay, let me just try to explain the trinity
[4:06:35] Speaker 3: because God.
[4:06:36] Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well, well we'll give this our last try.
[4:06:41] Speaker 1: You've been up here for almost an hour. But I'm
[4:06:42] Speaker 1: excited to see if you can put a bow on
[4:06:45] Speaker 1: the Trinity for us.
[4:06:47] Speaker 3: Okay, So there is the devign being, and this devigne
[4:06:52] Speaker 3: being has two faculties, two faculties in my faculties that
[4:06:58] Speaker 3: remains in.
[4:06:58] Speaker 1: The agent faculties. You mean, like a something to think with.
[4:07:05] Speaker 3: What intellect and will? Yeah, so in with this intellect
[4:07:12] Speaker 3: and this will he has that he has so he
[4:07:16] Speaker 3: can do two things now and will. Of course, no,
[4:07:19] Speaker 3: he has he self knowles self no less, and he's
[4:07:23] Speaker 3: self willing.
[4:07:25] Speaker 1: Well, but are Jesus is faculties identical to God the
[4:07:29] Speaker 1: Father's not in his human nature, so there's separate faculties.
[4:07:35] Speaker 1: And remember he's always in this You already admit though
[4:07:38] Speaker 1: that Jesus is always in the human nature right, which
[4:07:41] Speaker 1: means according to your trinitarian model, there are two separate faculties,
[4:07:46] Speaker 1: one of God the Father, one of Jesus.
[4:07:50] Speaker 3: Another quick question okay.
[4:07:53] Speaker 14: Yeah, just the other quick question. So Jesus, in your opinion,
[4:07:56] Speaker 14: still has a body. Does God the Father have a body?
[4:08:00] Speaker 6: Nah?
[4:08:03] Speaker 3: Nah? No, So Jesus has a body, but God the
[4:08:07] Speaker 3: Father does not have a body.
[4:08:09] Speaker 1: True, So they're not. Jesus has something that God doesn't have.
[4:08:17] Speaker 3: Okay, in his human nator by virtu of benk hipposthetically
[4:08:21] Speaker 3: united human nat so his other part the part maybe, yeah, okay,
[4:08:29] Speaker 3: I will conceit that in your language, it is in
[4:08:33] Speaker 3: part right.
[4:08:34] Speaker 1: This is actually I think the difficulty here, you know,
[4:08:36] Speaker 1: because like I think the Church's framing of the Trinity
[4:08:41] Speaker 1: is what ruins it. Right. So for example, uh, there's
[4:08:45] Speaker 1: a ritual in the ancient Near East. You can read
[4:08:48] Speaker 1: about it in there's a four volume series called the
[4:08:52] Speaker 1: Context of Scripture. It's a really interesting ritual for the
[4:08:56] Speaker 1: Goddess of the Night. And the ritual is designed for
[4:09:00] Speaker 1: what do you do when you set up a new temple,
[4:09:02] Speaker 1: because we've already got a temple of the Goddess of
[4:09:04] Speaker 1: the Night, right, And the general idea behind ancient worship
[4:09:09] Speaker 1: is that you would do a particular prayer of a
[4:09:12] Speaker 1: particular ritual, and then the God that you want in
[4:09:16] Speaker 1: that temple would inhabit that temple once you've did all
[4:09:18] Speaker 1: the rights properly, right, But they also believed that that
[4:09:22] Speaker 1: God could be in more places than one. It could
[4:09:25] Speaker 1: be in that temple and that temple and that temple
[4:09:27] Speaker 1: all the same time. Right.
[4:09:29] Speaker 3: Yes, I think that that's probably the context of like
[4:09:32] Speaker 3: the entire Theuteronomy cons an emphasis Unlike there is only
[4:09:36] Speaker 3: one Jabe in part because of the reference back then,
[4:09:39] Speaker 3: because there was like because because other places blah blah. Right,
[4:09:45] Speaker 3: So okay.
[4:09:46] Speaker 1: The thing that sets the Trinity apart is in ancient
[4:09:50] Speaker 1: uh theistic worship, the God could inhabit like a standing
[4:09:55] Speaker 1: stone or an idol, and then you would treat that
[4:09:59] Speaker 1: eye as though it was equal to God. But in
[4:10:04] Speaker 1: that respect they understood that the idol itself wasn't equivalent
[4:10:11] Speaker 1: to God. It was more like a housing for the God,
[4:10:15] Speaker 1: a body for the God, and then you could dispose
[4:10:17] Speaker 1: of it and give it another one later if you
[4:10:18] Speaker 1: need it. Right, the problem with the Trinity is that realistically,
[4:10:23] Speaker 1: Jesus is the flesh idol that God inhabits, and this
[4:10:29] Speaker 1: model fits perfectly with the rest of the ancient Near East.
[4:10:32] Speaker 1: You could have just said that God decided that he
[4:10:36] Speaker 1: was going to inhabit a human being for a time
[4:10:40] Speaker 1: period so that he could have a physical representation on
[4:10:44] Speaker 1: the earth, and then later, you know, he cast it off,
[4:10:48] Speaker 1: but you know sometime in the future he'll take it
[4:10:49] Speaker 1: on again. You could have done that. You could have
[4:10:52] Speaker 1: just owned up to the idea that God has parts,
[4:10:56] Speaker 1: because I think it's logical that God has parts in
[4:10:59] Speaker 1: the Trinitarian model. I don't understand why the Church had
[4:11:02] Speaker 1: to go through all this nonsense to claim that God
[4:11:06] Speaker 1: didn't have parts when he just clearly did.
[4:11:10] Speaker 3: Well, it's because they're using a different definition of partan
[4:11:14] Speaker 3: than you.
[4:11:15] Speaker 1: Well, I have no other definition to work from. If
[4:11:18] Speaker 1: they have a different definition, I don't know what it
[4:11:20] Speaker 1: is for them.
[4:11:22] Speaker 3: A thought has like to be like really distinct things
[4:11:28] Speaker 3: united under the aspect of the real distinction.
[4:11:32] Speaker 1: But that's not a meaningful definition to me, Like, because
[4:11:34] Speaker 1: if something is distinct and then unified, it still is
[4:11:40] Speaker 1: multiple parts. And that's exactly what the hyposthetic union is,
[4:11:44] Speaker 1: something that's distinct and unified.
[4:11:48] Speaker 3: That that could be said to be a sort of
[4:11:51] Speaker 3: part I have not studied that because please just go
[4:11:54] Speaker 3: and just explain the Trinity, because whenever I try something
[4:11:58] Speaker 3: something when in interact and will so when God. Okay,
[4:12:05] Speaker 3: the first person of the trinity is the Father? Why
[4:12:08] Speaker 3: is he because he virtually emanates from the Divinity. Not really,
[4:12:12] Speaker 3: there is no real emanation between divinessence and the Father.
[4:12:15] Speaker 3: It's just in a way of understanding better the fact
[4:12:18] Speaker 3: that the Father is like grounded upon the inventors because
[4:12:21] Speaker 3: they has some degree more fundamental than the Father because
[4:12:25] Speaker 3: he subsists in it. So there is the Father. Now
[4:12:31] Speaker 3: the Father has interact and will. So when the Father
[4:12:34] Speaker 3: knows himself, he creates by virtue of this, he produces
[4:12:38] Speaker 3: an image, a world, a logo, and these logos got
[4:12:43] Speaker 3: too everything that he and he communicates to that logo
[4:12:46] Speaker 3: everything he has, including all the divinators, all the event acts,
[4:12:50] Speaker 3: et cetera. As he communicated to that logo and that
[4:12:54] Speaker 3: logo in the son did the diusers.
[4:13:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, you just describe parts.
[4:13:03] Speaker 3: Well maybe in your definition, I guess, Yeah, all of
[4:13:06] Speaker 3: those things.
[4:13:07] Speaker 1: You describe your parts, just like a part of a
[4:13:10] Speaker 1: like a part of a car is me inside the
[4:13:14] Speaker 1: car driving it, like at that part, at that point,
[4:13:17] Speaker 1: I've become part of the car. Like you're just saying that,
[4:13:19] Speaker 1: Like Jesus is like the flesh part of God.
[4:13:24] Speaker 3: I know, we're talking about before incarnation, before incarnation in eternity.
[4:13:28] Speaker 3: This also eternity. This is not in time, and this
[4:13:33] Speaker 3: this was because then generation of you know what, the
[4:13:37] Speaker 3: external generation of this only.
[4:13:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the idea that Jesus wasn't created, that he
[4:13:42] Speaker 1: was being eternally generated from the nature.
[4:13:45] Speaker 3: Of God from the well, not from the nature of
[4:13:49] Speaker 3: God person or life, because that's not like he's really
[4:13:52] Speaker 3: sticking from later, but like from the intellect, intellect self.
[4:13:57] Speaker 6: Knowing of God.
[4:13:58] Speaker 1: Right, But that certainly can't be true if Jesus has
[4:14:01] Speaker 1: a separate mind, will and emotions and he does, no, not,
[4:14:04] Speaker 1: because that's just in the incarnation. Before the incarnation, then
[4:14:08] Speaker 1: God's nature changes. If God's nature changes in the incarnation,
[4:14:13] Speaker 1: then God's not immutable.
[4:14:16] Speaker 3: Uh, it's not God who changes, it's the human nature
[4:14:20] Speaker 3: that gains like accilation.
[4:14:24] Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. If God's nature changes when he incarnates,
[4:14:28] Speaker 1: that means God's nature changes.
[4:14:30] Speaker 3: We deny that that is like a real change in God.
[4:14:33] Speaker 3: There is like an extrinstic change. So when he's like like,
[4:14:37] Speaker 3: keep in mind, you believe that Jesus is still in
[4:14:39] Speaker 3: the flesh. Was he in flesh before the carnation? No, Okay,
[4:14:44] Speaker 3: that means God's nature changes. If God's nature is completely
[4:14:47] Speaker 3: immaterial and then he materializes, that means his nature changes.
[4:14:53] Speaker 4: Uh.
[4:14:54] Speaker 3: What happens that way? This thing is between like an
[4:14:56] Speaker 3: internal change and a change by extrinstic denomination, Because would
[4:15:00] Speaker 3: say that something like God was not always creator. He
[4:15:04] Speaker 3: became curat or when he created, an extrinstic change, not
[4:15:08] Speaker 3: an intrinsic change. Would say that the incarnation is an
[4:15:10] Speaker 3: extrinsic change in like God, not an intrinsic line.
[4:15:14] Speaker 1: Right. But what I'm saying is if if God's nature
[4:15:18] Speaker 1: is that he's completely immaterial, that is a quality of God,
[4:15:21] Speaker 1: and then God takes material form, that means God's nature changes. Which,
[4:15:27] Speaker 1: to be sure, this is not a problem for Jews.
[4:15:29] Speaker 1: I don't know why Catholics back themselves and Christians into
[4:15:33] Speaker 1: this corner. I don't get it. Why why is it
[4:15:36] Speaker 1: necessary to have this dumb doctrine that God can't change
[4:15:40] Speaker 1: his nature?
[4:15:42] Speaker 3: Well, I say, there is a lot what no, No,
[4:15:45] Speaker 3: go ahead, go ahead. There is a lot of arguments.
[4:15:48] Speaker 3: The argument is that if God changes, he's a creat.
[4:15:52] Speaker 1: Now, if God changes, then he's not perfect because something
[4:15:55] Speaker 1: that's perfect is entirely complete and can't change. Right.
[4:15:58] Speaker 3: Well, basically, yes, basically right, which.
[4:16:00] Speaker 1: Means God couldn't have changed his nature to take on
[4:16:04] Speaker 1: the form of a human being, because that means he
[4:16:06] Speaker 1: wasn't complete.
[4:16:09] Speaker 3: What happens that it's not God, Nato, it's not like
[4:16:13] Speaker 3: it's not like gods Nato morph into a human nature
[4:16:17] Speaker 3: being It more like that he got natal or here
[4:16:20] Speaker 3: and then a human nature gained a relation to the
[4:16:24] Speaker 3: second person.
[4:16:27] Speaker 14: But something along the lines of like optimist crime where
[4:16:31] Speaker 14: yahweh is like Jesus Christ gain of nature.
[4:16:37] Speaker 1: Something like that, Like my friend Cyber here, actually he
[4:16:42] Speaker 1: grew up Jewish, right, So like I am I wrong here, Cyber?
[4:16:48] Speaker 1: Like what is there a need to add these weird
[4:16:52] Speaker 1: limitations to God? Like God can't change like his his
[4:16:57] Speaker 1: qualities or like because he clearly does in Justis eighteen
[4:17:01] Speaker 1: he manifests in human form, so like clearly he could.
[4:17:06] Speaker 1: So I don't understand why we have this language like
[4:17:10] Speaker 1: when we talk about God's essence and his nature and
[4:17:14] Speaker 1: saying that it's completely unchangeable. It's just demonstically untrue. He
[4:17:17] Speaker 1: changes it all the time.
[4:17:20] Speaker 3: Oh well about that, I think that. Do you mean then,
[4:17:27] Speaker 3: do you mean like Jacob ARSULDANGI there's God, there's fight
[4:17:32] Speaker 3: or what? No?
[4:17:33] Speaker 1: I don't think. Go ahead, Cyber, what are you gonna say?
[4:17:36] Speaker 6: Yeah?
[4:17:37] Speaker 14: Yeah, So the idea that God needs to like add
[4:17:41] Speaker 14: these natures, you know, he's an all powerful being.
[4:17:43] Speaker 3: It's ridiculous to thinking you would need to do this right.
[4:17:48] Speaker 14: What I think it is is that as soon as
[4:17:51] Speaker 14: Christians adopted the teachings of Jesus Christ, and at the
[4:17:54] Speaker 14: Nicean Council when they had to confirm that, you know,
[4:17:57] Speaker 14: he was in fact divine, they kind of painted themselves
[4:18:01] Speaker 14: into a corner and they had to come up with
[4:18:04] Speaker 14: goofy words like hypostatic union, which nobody can ever explain,
[4:18:08] Speaker 14: nobody can ever give a good definition of it, and
[4:18:12] Speaker 14: ultimately it always ends in, uh, well it's just a
[4:18:14] Speaker 14: hypostatic union. You don't understand it, and if we're honest,
[4:18:18] Speaker 14: neither do we.
[4:18:20] Speaker 3: Well, really, there are like hundreds and hundred hundreds of
[4:18:24] Speaker 3: pages explaining this stuff, like you can just go to
[4:18:27] Speaker 3: You shouldn't need you.
[4:18:29] Speaker 1: Should need one hundred pages to explain expla that tells
[4:18:33] Speaker 1: me that it's it's irrational, But hey, bro, it gets a.
[4:18:40] Speaker 3: Has I'm sure.
[4:18:44] Speaker 1: Listen, listen, go We've we've been talking for like an
[4:18:47] Speaker 1: hour and some change. I've got to get one more
[4:18:51] Speaker 1: guests in here before I call it for the night.
[4:18:54] Speaker 1: But maybe I've enjoyed talking to you.
[4:18:58] Speaker 3: Yes, I to be enjoyable guy, Yeah, I say, out.
[4:19:05] Speaker 14: Of most of the out of most of the Catholics
[4:19:07] Speaker 14: and Orthodox that we talked to, you've been probably one
[4:19:11] Speaker 14: of the most enjoyable.
[4:19:14] Speaker 1: To chat with and the most.
[4:19:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, I oh, I am really Why do you think
[4:19:20] Speaker 3: because you you actually intem like a lot of these
[4:19:22] Speaker 3: Catholic doctrines so like I had to learn them growing
[4:19:25] Speaker 3: up in Catholic school.
[4:19:26] Speaker 1: But most of the Catholics I know don't actually know
[4:19:28] Speaker 1: any of these.
[4:19:30] Speaker 3: Oh, but that's father unfortunately, because I had the reason
[4:19:34] Speaker 3: is a person who was gotten into like the deeps,
[4:19:36] Speaker 3: into the like internet scholastics. I have seen like Catholics
[4:19:42] Speaker 3: who have a little of know Like I know you
[4:19:45] Speaker 3: won't believe this. There is a guy, a Catholic guy
[4:19:47] Speaker 3: who is like in living in Hiram. He's like underground
[4:19:51] Speaker 3: because it's a massive country. He can be Catholic brow
[4:19:54] Speaker 3: like he's got to be a baptize And this guy
[4:19:56] Speaker 3: most of that I have no idea. He has started
[4:19:58] Speaker 3: stuff in Latin. This guy, I think he has said
[4:20:01] Speaker 3: almost alt Tomas Aquitness, I have absolutely no idea how
[4:20:04] Speaker 3: this month does it.
[4:20:06] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some impressive people out there. I'm not among them.
[4:20:11] Speaker 1: But thank you for coming and chatting with us. I
[4:20:13] Speaker 1: really appreciate it and best of luck on your journey,
[4:20:17] Speaker 1: and thanks for being nice.
[4:20:19] Speaker 3: Yes, one day, one day I will come back and
[4:20:21] Speaker 3: try to explain it more, or maybe I can. I'm
[4:20:24] Speaker 3: actually planning to go into Sunday like at his experience.
[4:20:27] Speaker 3: You know they are going to be there Sunday.
[4:20:30] Speaker 1: I'll be there also. I am going to be hosting
[4:20:32] Speaker 1: a live stream soon just on the Trinity, So maybe
[4:20:35] Speaker 1: it'd be a good day to come.
[4:20:38] Speaker 3: A day an hour.
[4:20:40] Speaker 1: I don't know which day it's going to be, but
[4:20:42] Speaker 1: it's gonna be this month. This month, it'll be really
[4:20:46] Speaker 1: it'll be a Monday, Wednesday or Friday, and so it'll
[4:20:51] Speaker 1: be a lot of fun.
[4:20:51] Speaker 3: Monday, Monday, Wednesday.
[4:20:55] Speaker 1: Okay, send me cand you like, send me like inctive here,
[4:21:01] Speaker 1: I'm sure I can. Yeah, make sure and add me
[4:21:03] Speaker 1: as a friend and send me a message so I
[4:21:05] Speaker 1: know you who you are, and then I'll make sure
[4:21:08] Speaker 1: it happens.
[4:21:09] Speaker 3: How do I do, ask, friend? Do I follow with you?
[4:21:11] Speaker 1: Yeah? I think you Just follow me and send me
[4:21:13] Speaker 1: a message and then I should be able to get
[4:21:15] Speaker 1: the message and add you up.
[4:21:17] Speaker 3: Okay, I will do it now. Well, good bye for now.
[4:21:22] Speaker 1: All right, cheers, friend, have it go in well, goat
[4:21:27] Speaker 1: was nice. He was the trinitary go ahead, oh go ahead.
[4:21:35] Speaker 14: Like I said, I still don't know what the hypostatic
[4:21:37] Speaker 14: union is or how it makes sense.
[4:21:38] Speaker 1: But it's messy.
[4:21:40] Speaker 6: It's messy.
[4:21:41] Speaker 1: All right, let me grab I got three super chats
[4:21:44] Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna get our last guest in here. Roger,
[4:21:47] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the fifty dollars super chat.
[4:21:49] Speaker 1: That's huge, my friend. I really appreciate that. Roger says,
[4:21:53] Speaker 1: again and again, even at seventy three years old, rock
[4:21:57] Speaker 1: hard for Doug for all you do and tage. But
[4:22:00] Speaker 1: thank you, Roger. I appreciate that. And it is it's
[4:22:03] Speaker 1: like a merry go round over and over and over
[4:22:06] Speaker 1: again around we go. But you know, it is what
[4:22:09] Speaker 1: it is. You know, we do what we can. David Burke,
[4:22:12] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the fifty hours super chat.
[4:22:15] Speaker 1: That's huge. I really appreciate that. David says, Yuppie cannot
[4:22:19] Speaker 1: be a lawyer. He was given facts to assume that
[4:22:22] Speaker 1: we're clear and turned on the question of being deceived
[4:22:27] Speaker 1: and then punished for no fault of his own. Somehow
[4:22:30] Speaker 1: he could not comprehend that that's a sixth grade test question. Yes,
[4:22:35] Speaker 1: actually agree, Like the idea of being deceived. I think
[4:22:39] Speaker 1: it's very clear in the text. It's weird to me
[4:22:43] Speaker 1: that people it's weird to me that people don't cast
[4:22:47] Speaker 1: more blame on the people in the Bible who deserve blame,
[4:22:50] Speaker 1: like my God, like nobody, like God shouldn't be punishing
[4:22:55] Speaker 1: anybody because they were deceived. Like if they're deceived, that
[4:22:59] Speaker 1: puts them in a different classification as people who are
[4:23:02] Speaker 1: like deservedly receiving the same punishment. We would we would
[4:23:06] Speaker 1: rightly conclude that there's a difference between manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter,
[4:23:12] Speaker 1: right like one is premeditated, one is not. It's crazy
[4:23:16] Speaker 1: that we can have that distinction. But God can't figure
[4:23:19] Speaker 1: that out, you know.
[4:23:22] Speaker 9: No, he really can't.
[4:23:25] Speaker 14: And last one arm sorry if he's a put up
[4:23:29] Speaker 14: on trialesh I know.
[4:23:31] Speaker 1: Last one from five to five four four five says
[4:23:34] Speaker 1: on the all knowing nature God, first of all, thank
[4:23:36] Speaker 1: you for the trying a super cheat on the all
[4:23:37] Speaker 1: knowing nature of God. It may be useful to relate
[4:23:39] Speaker 1: it to the three door problem. If you had three doors,
[4:23:43] Speaker 1: and behind two of them are dung and one is
[4:23:47] Speaker 1: ice cream, and all knowing being cannot regret which door
[4:23:50] Speaker 1: they choose. I agree, yes, that's why in Genesis six
[4:23:55] Speaker 1: one it says God regretted making humans. In First Hanuel fifteen,
[4:23:58] Speaker 1: when God says I regret can saul king, the regret
[4:24:02] Speaker 1: is such a dumb thing. An all knowing being shouldn't
[4:24:04] Speaker 1: be experiencing regret. I think the better way to read
[4:24:07] Speaker 1: the Old Testament is not that God is all knowing.
[4:24:10] Speaker 1: It's that God knows a lot of things. And also
[4:24:15] Speaker 1: when it says things like like like something akin to
[4:24:19] Speaker 1: God being all knowing, I think it's more of a hyperbole.
[4:24:23] Speaker 1: I love it when like God says things that Christians
[4:24:25] Speaker 1: don't like. They're like, well, it's hyperbole. But the one
[4:24:28] Speaker 1: thing that probably is hyperbole is when it says that God,
[4:24:32] Speaker 1: God knows everything. That to me sounds like the hyperbolic statement,
[4:24:36] Speaker 1: and because all of his behavior throughout the Old Testament
[4:24:39] Speaker 1: would lead you to believe that he's not all knowing.
[4:24:43] Speaker 1: All right, let me grab our next guest is going
[4:24:46] Speaker 1: to be from our YouTube Q and it looks like
[4:24:49] Speaker 1: it's going to be Craig. Let's see if we can
[4:24:52] Speaker 1: get Craig into the conversation. How you doing Craig.
[4:24:55] Speaker 2: Hey, good, how are you good?
[4:24:57] Speaker 1: Thank you for asking, Craig, are you at he's eighteen?
[4:25:01] Speaker 1: And do you believe in some kind of a goden?
[4:25:05] Speaker 2: I got wringles on them? Yeah I'm not. I'm thirty six.
[4:25:08] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay? Which god? Do you believe in?
[4:25:13] Speaker 2: Christian God?
[4:25:14] Speaker 1: Okay? And do you believe that the Christian God is
[4:25:17] Speaker 1: all good? Part good, mostly good? Or you don't know?
[4:25:23] Speaker 13: You know?
[4:25:24] Speaker 2: It's interesting?
[4:25:25] Speaker 12: And they.
[4:25:27] Speaker 2: Recently born. I'm getting up a whole lot of them.
[4:25:29] Speaker 4: Here.
[4:25:29] Speaker 2: Is there anything I can adjust on my audio? Not that?
[4:25:33] Speaker 1: Or let me check real quick? He's something I can adjust?
[4:25:37] Speaker 3: No?
[4:25:37] Speaker 2: Sorry about that?
[4:25:37] Speaker 1: What about now? Hello?
[4:25:41] Speaker 2: Oh that's yeah, that's better?
[4:25:42] Speaker 6: Sorry?
[4:25:43] Speaker 1: Okay, yeah?
[4:25:45] Speaker 3: Good.
[4:25:47] Speaker 2: So I am recently a borning and Christian as of
[4:25:50] Speaker 2: about two years ago, and been an atheist for about
[4:25:55] Speaker 2: thirty four thirty five years of my life. I had
[4:25:58] Speaker 2: a pretty unbelie whole experience with with Jesus, and I
[4:26:05] Speaker 2: started to question myself and started to look into scripture
[4:26:08] Speaker 2: further and started to question it as I have my
[4:26:10] Speaker 2: whole life, and I guess that I'd done that. I
[4:26:14] Speaker 2: started to find like a more solid ground in faith
[4:26:17] Speaker 2: and changed a lot of things for me. So I
[4:26:20] Speaker 2: would say that as I've started to dive deeper into
[4:26:25] Speaker 2: my faith, I definitely am starting to understand I think,
[4:26:29] Speaker 2: really what we mean by God being good. I think,
[4:26:34] Speaker 2: as being a human, I think we have a certain
[4:26:38] Speaker 2: understanding of what good is based off of what we've
[4:26:41] Speaker 2: been taught our whole lives and maybe not necessarily what
[4:26:47] Speaker 2: God sets to be good in the world. I don't
[4:26:52] Speaker 2: know if that makes sense. I'm still trying to analyze
[4:26:55] Speaker 2: my thoughts and I just wanted to hop on here
[4:26:56] Speaker 2: to also understand like your perspective, why do you not
[4:27:01] Speaker 2: believe in God? What led you to believe that? And
[4:27:06] Speaker 2: why would you say you're motivated to work to prove
[4:27:09] Speaker 2: his non existence?
[4:27:11] Speaker 1: Well, I think those are multiple questions. I talk about
[4:27:14] Speaker 1: why I don't believe in God like almost every night
[4:27:17] Speaker 1: that I'm live.
[4:27:18] Speaker 2: But for so, yeah, and I'm sorry, this is like
[4:27:20] Speaker 2: only my second time seeing you, and I've kind of
[4:27:23] Speaker 2: like scrolled pasts, but I really wanted to call in
[4:27:25] Speaker 2: and I just to have that conversation. But I can
[4:27:27] Speaker 2: always go back and like watch your videos. I don't
[4:27:30] Speaker 2: want it. You have to explain everything.
[4:27:32] Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think the purpose of this particular
[4:27:35] Speaker 1: debate topic is not to prove whether or not God
[4:27:38] Speaker 1: is real or not, although I think it kind of
[4:27:40] Speaker 1: sometimes leads people to that conclusion when we start examining
[4:27:45] Speaker 1: whether or not the God of the Bible is actually good,
[4:27:47] Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people are inclined to
[4:27:50] Speaker 1: believe that if there is a God, the God should
[4:27:53] Speaker 1: be good. Like it seems at least it feels intuitive
[4:27:59] Speaker 1: to believe that if there is a God, the God
[4:28:01] Speaker 1: would be good. Now that intuition could be wrong. It
[4:28:04] Speaker 1: might be that there's a God and he's just an asshole, right,
[4:28:07] Speaker 1: that's certainly possibility. I don't see why it would be illogical.
[4:28:10] Speaker 1: It just seems to feel it doesn't sit well with
[4:28:13] Speaker 1: most people. So this particular topic is not necessary to like,
[4:28:17] Speaker 1: I'm not doing this to prove that God doesn't exist,
[4:28:20] Speaker 1: although I think it certainly can prove that the biblical
[4:28:24] Speaker 1: God doesn't exist if you think that the Biblical God
[4:28:27] Speaker 1: is all good. So the Bible does say some things
[4:28:32] Speaker 1: akin to that, like a Deuteronomy thirty two four says
[4:28:36] Speaker 1: that God is right and just in all of his ways,
[4:28:39] Speaker 1: which would lead one to believe that if God is
[4:28:41] Speaker 1: just in all of his ways that he would be
[4:28:44] Speaker 1: all good. Right, it seems to be kind of an
[4:28:47] Speaker 1: entailment in that worldview. And then Jesus himself, when they
[4:28:52] Speaker 1: call him good teacher, he says, why do you call
[4:28:54] Speaker 1: me good? Nobody is good but the Father. I'm led
[4:28:56] Speaker 1: to believe that he must be all good. It says
[4:29:00] Speaker 1: in First John that God is love, and if God
[4:29:02] Speaker 1: is love, like the equivalent of love, I can't see
[4:29:06] Speaker 1: how you can be the equivalent of love and still
[4:29:08] Speaker 1: be bad. So I think if we point out that, hey,
[4:29:12] Speaker 1: like the God of the Bible might not actually be good,
[4:29:16] Speaker 1: I think it draws a contradiction in the text. And
[4:29:18] Speaker 1: if there's a contradiction in the text, it's going to
[4:29:21] Speaker 1: force some people to go back to the drawing board
[4:29:23] Speaker 1: and say, Okay, well, what's really what's really the case?
[4:29:27] Speaker 1: Is God actually all good? Or maybe the people who
[4:29:29] Speaker 1: claim he's all good aren't correct. So that being said,
[4:29:35] Speaker 1: that's all stuff that's kind of tangential to the conversation.
[4:29:38] Speaker 1: I think for the sake of this conversation, we're just
[4:29:41] Speaker 1: trying to get to the answer to the question, which
[4:29:44] Speaker 1: is whether or not God is in fact all good.
[4:29:47] Speaker 1: And it sounds like you do believe that God is
[4:29:49] Speaker 1: all good? Right?
[4:29:51] Speaker 14: Yeah?
[4:29:51] Speaker 2: And I think it comes down to I guess, first
[4:29:54] Speaker 2: of all, I think a lot of people's question and
[4:29:56] Speaker 2: my question for a long time, which sort of kept
[4:29:58] Speaker 2: me from believing, was if God is all loving, why
[4:30:02] Speaker 2: is there still a suffering one? Or I think everybody
[4:30:05] Speaker 2: there's that question. I think that's a very deep question
[4:30:08] Speaker 2: that a lot of people ask and I guess I
[4:30:11] Speaker 2: never really asked myself a secondary questions. I'm sure you
[4:30:14] Speaker 2: have been asked this, but like, what do you consider suffering?
[4:30:18] Speaker 2: And I guess what do you compare this to in
[4:30:23] Speaker 2: order to judge what suffering is?
[4:30:26] Speaker 1: So I mean, definitely speaking, suffering is just any of
[4:30:30] Speaker 1: unwanted displeasure. So if you're experiencing displeasure and you don't
[4:30:36] Speaker 1: want that displeasure, that suffering. If you're experiencing pleasure because
[4:30:40] Speaker 1: you want the If you're experiencing displeasure because but do
[4:30:43] Speaker 1: you want it? Like you're going to the gym and
[4:30:46] Speaker 1: your muscles are getting sore, but that's like part of
[4:30:48] Speaker 1: the process, you asked for it. That's not what I
[4:30:51] Speaker 1: would call suffering. Suffering is typically the unwanted pain.
[4:30:57] Speaker 2: So what about someone who maybe and and I had
[4:31:00] Speaker 2: a cousin who was an alcoholic. He was addicted to alcohol.
[4:31:06] Speaker 2: He was drinking thirteen fourteen years constantly. Every time I'd
[4:31:09] Speaker 2: hang out with him, he'd be, you know, a functioning alcoholic.
[4:31:12] Speaker 2: He went to rehab, and he went through a significant
[4:31:14] Speaker 2: amount of suffering. He fought his family. He said he
[4:31:17] Speaker 2: hated his parents and they which they died because they
[4:31:20] Speaker 2: sent him to rehab. They forced him there, and he
[4:31:24] Speaker 2: went through rehab finally on his own will. He you know,
[4:31:27] Speaker 2: had a couple of relapses, but throughout the process he
[4:31:30] Speaker 2: went through immense suffering and believed that these people who
[4:31:33] Speaker 2: were trying to teach him and alcohol was dad, were idiots.
[4:31:37] Speaker 2: But through about fifteen years of his life, who flowly
[4:31:40] Speaker 2: turned himself around through it. He's found God. But the
[4:31:44] Speaker 2: amount of suffering that he had through that process was excruciating.
[4:31:48] Speaker 2: Thought he was going to die multiple times, was delusional, hallucinogenic.
[4:31:54] Speaker 2: I felt like I didn't know him for many years.
[4:31:56] Speaker 2: He threatened to kill me at my grandfather's funeral. But
[4:32:00] Speaker 2: essentially the suffering that he went through eventually led him
[4:32:03] Speaker 2: out the other side. So I think, sometimes, you know,
[4:32:07] Speaker 2: and maybe this is just because my perspective has changed
[4:32:10] Speaker 2: over the years. But essentially I look at like, Okay,
[4:32:14] Speaker 2: what is the purpose of the suffering? Is there a
[4:32:17] Speaker 2: reason for it? Maybe that we don't even understand, you know,
[4:32:20] Speaker 2: especially when we see a young child die of a
[4:32:22] Speaker 2: rare disease. It's a horrible thing, but what comes out
[4:32:26] Speaker 2: of it could be goodness. You have a foundation that's created,
[4:32:29] Speaker 2: you have money that's raised to research this type of
[4:32:32] Speaker 2: degenerative disease that has impacted children across the world, and
[4:32:36] Speaker 2: maybe a cure is found, or you know, a vaccine
[4:32:39] Speaker 2: is found or discovered. So I think that baseline, you
[4:32:43] Speaker 2: can look at suffering and only look at the negative
[4:32:45] Speaker 2: aspects of it, but I think it also comes to
[4:32:47] Speaker 2: maybe looking at the good and maybe what God's working
[4:32:50] Speaker 2: through it in order to provide us a sense of
[4:32:52] Speaker 2: goodness through a fallen state that we live in because
[4:32:54] Speaker 2: we turned our backs on Him, you know.
[4:32:57] Speaker 1: Okay, So what you're attempting to describe is called necessary suffering,
[4:33:02] Speaker 1: and I don't really make any claims about necessary suffering.
[4:33:05] Speaker 1: I'm totally okay admitting that some forms of suffering can
[4:33:09] Speaker 1: produce good, and if suffering produces good, then it does
[4:33:12] Speaker 1: in fact become necessary in some way unless you could
[4:33:15] Speaker 1: do it without the suffering, then that that case is
[4:33:18] Speaker 1: just called stupid suffering. Like if I could accomplish something
[4:33:22] Speaker 1: with the suffering and without the suffering, it's not really
[4:33:25] Speaker 1: necessary for me to suffer. And if I choose the
[4:33:26] Speaker 1: suffer anyways, like that's my own decision, that's just stupid suffering.
[4:33:31] Speaker 1: But so to the case, though, I think it's the
[4:33:34] Speaker 1: unnecessary suffering that is problematic for God. That's God's real problem,
[4:33:38] Speaker 1: because if God is all good, then we would expect
[4:33:41] Speaker 1: that he only causes the necessary suffering.
[4:33:44] Speaker 2: Right right, But what's an example of unnecessary suffering?
[4:33:49] Speaker 1: I think a really good example of unnecessary suffering is
[4:33:53] Speaker 1: perhaps some of the ways in which he punishes people
[4:33:56] Speaker 1: in the Bible. And I think a classic exam would
[4:34:00] Speaker 1: be natural disasters. Natural disasters certainly don't seem to be necessary.
[4:34:07] Speaker 2: In what way?
[4:34:08] Speaker 1: What are they necessary for?
[4:34:11] Speaker 2: Well, I'm asking you why are they unnecessary? Because I
[4:34:14] Speaker 2: can answer why I think they're necessary, but I just
[4:34:16] Speaker 2: want to understand like your perspective.
[4:34:18] Speaker 1: First, because they don't actually serve the purpose of God.
[4:34:21] Speaker 1: And you might say that they're necessary for like soul building.
[4:34:25] Speaker 1: But then you would also then have to admit that
[4:34:28] Speaker 1: God is not all powerful. He couldn't accomplish his goal
[4:34:31] Speaker 1: using any of their means, like he has to torment
[4:34:34] Speaker 1: people to get to the goal, and that just limits
[4:34:37] Speaker 1: his actual omnipotence. So in order to make natural disasters necessary,
[4:34:41] Speaker 1: you kind of have to concede God's abilities.
[4:34:47] Speaker 2: So necessarily we're saying conceive God's ability. However, in order
[4:34:53] Speaker 2: for us to love God, I think that the Christian
[4:34:57] Speaker 2: theology is, in order for there to be laws, their
[4:34:59] Speaker 2: needs to be free will. Right that God can't force
[4:35:02] Speaker 2: us to love him, so there has to be free will,
[4:35:05] Speaker 2: And with free will comes the option to turn your
[4:35:07] Speaker 2: back on God and to introduce sin into the world,
[4:35:11] Speaker 2: which you know, according to scriptures that Adam and Eve
[4:35:15] Speaker 2: introduced sin to the world, which we then live in
[4:35:17] Speaker 2: a fallen world. Everyone is born into this sinful world
[4:35:22] Speaker 2: and were influenced by it day to day.
[4:35:25] Speaker 1: But you're describing the fall of the world as though
[4:35:28] Speaker 1: God had nothing to do with it, like it fell
[4:35:30] Speaker 1: on its own. Did God design the consequences of the fall?
[4:35:36] Speaker 2: Did God design the consequences of the fall? What do
[4:35:39] Speaker 2: you mean by design?
[4:35:41] Speaker 1: Okay, so when God created the world, he knew Adam
[4:35:44] Speaker 1: and he would sin.
[4:35:44] Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, this is this is a good question, and
[4:35:48] Speaker 2: I've been I've been searching into this for a while,
[4:35:50] Speaker 2: and to be completely honest, I don't have the best
[4:35:54] Speaker 2: response to that question. And it's something that I continue
[4:35:56] Speaker 2: to search and try to understand. I would love to
[4:36:01] Speaker 2: come back and like talk more about this, honestly, and
[4:36:03] Speaker 2: I'm comfortable with saying I don't have the best to
[4:36:06] Speaker 2: answer for that right now. I can tell you what
[4:36:10] Speaker 2: I know right now and what I feel. I guess
[4:36:12] Speaker 2: I should say what I feel right now, and what
[4:36:14] Speaker 2: I believe right now is that necessarily we are responsible
[4:36:21] Speaker 2: for the suffering of the Word as people. As humans,
[4:36:26] Speaker 2: we decided to and made the free world decision to
[4:36:29] Speaker 2: try to know what God knows, you know, even from
[4:36:32] Speaker 2: the tree of knowledge. We wanted to achieve the same
[4:36:36] Speaker 2: power God had. That was our own pride that let
[4:36:39] Speaker 2: us down that road. I think it was ultimately partly
[4:36:48] Speaker 2: I think it was partly God's wrath. Again, I'm maybe
[4:36:50] Speaker 2: a mistaken I'm still learning, I'm still trying to understand it.
[4:36:53] Speaker 2: So I apologize to any Christian out there if I'm
[4:36:55] Speaker 2: misrepresenting your teaching, senior sisters, but I do believe that
[4:37:01] Speaker 2: it was God's just action to punish us for us
[4:37:08] Speaker 2: turning our backs on him and like a parent punishing
[4:37:11] Speaker 2: their jobs or turning their back on him. But then
[4:37:13] Speaker 2: through the offering of his only begotten son, dying for
[4:37:17] Speaker 2: our sins, washing away or sins with his blood, and
[4:37:20] Speaker 2: offering us a way to heaven. I think the new
[4:37:23] Speaker 2: convenant that he cut with us, that he cut with Abraham,
[4:37:28] Speaker 2: I think gives us the way back to the Father,
[4:37:30] Speaker 2: and he gives us a choice to either go towards
[4:37:33] Speaker 2: him or again once again turn our backs on him,
[4:37:35] Speaker 2: and it is eternally separating from him.
[4:37:37] Speaker 1: Right. But my question is if God knew that Adam
[4:37:40] Speaker 1: and Eve was going to sin, why did he create them?
[4:37:43] Speaker 13: No?
[4:37:43] Speaker 1: No, no no. If God knew that they were going
[4:37:45] Speaker 1: to sin, that means what happened after the sin, the
[4:37:49] Speaker 1: consequences of the sin, He had to have known what
[4:37:52] Speaker 1: he was going to do about it. In Genesis three,
[4:37:55] Speaker 1: was he do he curses a snake, He curses the earth.
[4:37:58] Speaker 1: Then he curses the wombs of women so that they
[4:38:01] Speaker 1: have painful child bers. Right, So there are there are
[4:38:04] Speaker 1: reactions that God has to the sin, and I don't
[4:38:08] Speaker 1: see that. Like, if you believe that natural disasters are
[4:38:12] Speaker 1: a curse from God because of the sin, I don't
[4:38:15] Speaker 1: see why God was required to curse the earth so
[4:38:18] Speaker 1: that it would produce natural disasters. That seems like a
[4:38:21] Speaker 1: decision and not a necessity.
[4:38:24] Speaker 2: So what could he have done instead?
[4:38:27] Speaker 1: Everything? Except for that? He could have literally did everything
[4:38:29] Speaker 1: he already did, but not that, Like.
[4:38:32] Speaker 2: What like when you even buy everything? Like, what else
[4:38:35] Speaker 2: could he have done?
[4:38:36] Speaker 1: Well, he cursed the womb of Eve, he cursed the snake,
[4:38:39] Speaker 1: and he made Adam till the ground at the sweat
[4:38:42] Speaker 1: of his brow. He could have done those three things
[4:38:44] Speaker 1: and never done the natural disasters. I don't see why
[4:38:47] Speaker 1: the natural disasters are a requirement.
[4:38:55] Speaker 2: But is it really God's creating to say, Hey, get
[4:38:58] Speaker 2: to what we're going to We're gonna instant natural disasters
[4:39:01] Speaker 2: on the earth because of sin. It's not necessarily you know,
[4:39:05] Speaker 2: sin is not an action, right, Sin is something that's
[4:39:07] Speaker 2: introduced in the world. So sin itself is not someone
[4:39:11] Speaker 2: committing an act, you know, It's not like an action
[4:39:14] Speaker 2: that's taken by someone. So I think part of that
[4:39:19] Speaker 2: is obviously man's own doing in their free will. But
[4:39:23] Speaker 2: I don't necessarily believe that it's God saying that and
[4:39:27] Speaker 2: choosing specifically to have natural disasters on earth, Like I
[4:39:31] Speaker 2: don't think you know it's it's hard.
[4:39:34] Speaker 1: To happen by accident. Did God not know that the natural.
[4:39:38] Speaker 2: Were gonna saying that it's like by accident? And I'm
[4:39:40] Speaker 2: not saying that like God didn't know that. You know
[4:39:43] Speaker 2: that these natural disasters would have happened, whether necessarily.
[4:39:47] Speaker 1: Were their natural disasters before the.
[4:39:49] Speaker 2: Fault, whether natural disasters for the fault, as far as
[4:40:00] Speaker 2: familiar with and from what I've from what I've read again,
[4:40:04] Speaker 2: I'm still a new believer. I do not think that
[4:40:08] Speaker 2: there were a natural disasters prior to the fall, because
[4:40:12] Speaker 2: this suffering of the war came from the introduction scene,
[4:40:15] Speaker 2: That's right?
[4:40:16] Speaker 1: And did God is he in charge of determining what
[4:40:20] Speaker 1: the consequences of sin are?
[4:40:26] Speaker 6: Yes?
[4:40:26] Speaker 1: Okay, so God decided that the consequences of Adam and
[4:40:29] Speaker 1: Eve sin would include natural disasters, right.
[4:40:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, I see, I see, I see your point.
[4:40:38] Speaker 1: So what we have then, is this really weird situation
[4:40:43] Speaker 1: where God knew they would sin and he decided ahead
[4:40:46] Speaker 1: of time that when they did sin, you know, he
[4:40:49] Speaker 1: was going to create the natural disasters, and I I
[4:40:51] Speaker 1: can't see why the natural disasters are a necessary punishment
[4:40:55] Speaker 1: for the sin.
[4:41:00] Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can see what you're saying. And
[4:41:03] Speaker 2: I think that comes down to us questioning God's judgment, right,
[4:41:07] Speaker 2: That's that's what I right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, so you're
[4:41:11] Speaker 2: saying you know why this and why not that?
[4:41:14] Speaker 3: You know?
[4:41:14] Speaker 2: I think it's it's anything like you're living in someone's
[4:41:18] Speaker 2: I'm sure you've heard this, nougy. You live in someone's house, right,
[4:41:21] Speaker 2: and you destroy their house, but they've.
[4:41:23] Speaker 4: Let you live in it.
[4:41:23] Speaker 2: And then they come home and they're upset at you,
[4:41:25] Speaker 2: and they punish you for it, and then you blame
[4:41:28] Speaker 2: them for the punishment, even though you've destroyed their home
[4:41:31] Speaker 2: and you've punched holes in the group and the brains
[4:41:34] Speaker 2: on you and you're cold and wet, and you wonder
[4:41:36] Speaker 2: why this happened was because you did it to yourselves?
[4:41:41] Speaker 2: Like if there is no God? Right, Like, I know
[4:41:45] Speaker 2: that that's not your argument tonight, but it's kind of
[4:41:47] Speaker 2: along the lines. If there is no dumb who is
[4:41:50] Speaker 2: responsible for the suffering on the earth? Well, if it's
[4:41:54] Speaker 2: not wrong, who is it?
[4:41:55] Speaker 1: Well, in my worldview, nobody is causing natural disasters, like
[4:41:59] Speaker 1: it's just the product of a chaotic universe. Right, So
[4:42:02] Speaker 1: suffering is a little bit expected in my worldview because
[4:42:06] Speaker 1: there's no like, there's nothing that created us to be here, right,
[4:42:09] Speaker 1: But suffering, like unnecessary suffering through natural disasters, that is
[4:42:14] Speaker 1: unexpected in the Christian worldview because if you believe that
[4:42:18] Speaker 1: God is all good and he only creates the suffering
[4:42:22] Speaker 1: that's necessary, then now we need a justification for why
[4:42:26] Speaker 1: natural disasters are necessary.
[4:42:28] Speaker 14: And I would even add to that, not only is
[4:42:30] Speaker 14: he all good, but he's all just.
[4:42:34] Speaker 2: Sorry. Can you can you put your volume up?
[4:42:37] Speaker 1: Whatever?
[4:42:37] Speaker 2: I'm so sorry I couldn't there, you know.
[4:42:42] Speaker 14: So I'm saying I would even add, not only is
[4:42:45] Speaker 14: he all good, but he's all just as well.
[4:42:51] Speaker 2: Right as God, meaning punishment for actions is what you're saying, right.
[4:42:57] Speaker 1: Right, because because this kind of plays into the punishment, right.
[4:42:59] Speaker 1: So Adam and Eve first humanity because they ate their fruit. Right,
[4:43:05] Speaker 1: it's kind of weird that all of humanity now has
[4:43:09] Speaker 1: to take the punishment for what Adam and Eve did. Like,
[4:43:12] Speaker 1: for example, the child that gets swept up in a hurricane.
[4:43:19] Speaker 1: That child didn't do anything wrong. Why is that child
[4:43:21] Speaker 1: being punished for adam eve sin?
[4:43:23] Speaker 2: Well, how do we know they haven't done this involve
[4:43:25] Speaker 2: how do we know what? How do we know they
[4:43:27] Speaker 2: haven't done anything at wrong?
[4:43:29] Speaker 1: A baby?
[4:43:29] Speaker 9: They're a child?
[4:43:31] Speaker 2: No, you said child? I mean I think we've all
[4:43:34] Speaker 2: admitted some sort of sin. Like the belief is that
[4:43:36] Speaker 2: everyone has been born into saying we have turned our
[4:43:40] Speaker 2: backs on God. We have committed sin one way or
[4:43:43] Speaker 2: another against his word and have turned our backs on him.
[4:43:46] Speaker 1: Well, baby babies dying natural disasters, right, do you think
[4:43:50] Speaker 1: baby's sin? No?
[4:43:53] Speaker 14: No, I.
[4:43:56] Speaker 2: Baby's dying and after That's just is a tough one. Absolutely,
[4:43:59] Speaker 2: and I can't I can't answer that again. This is
[4:44:03] Speaker 2: something that I'm still reflecting on personally. Yeah, it's a
[4:44:08] Speaker 2: difficult question. I'm not going to lie and have a
[4:44:10] Speaker 2: simple answer for it. It's an extraordinarily deep question.
[4:44:14] Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a fair answer. You know,
[4:44:17] Speaker 1: when I was a Christian, I would have said the
[4:44:19] Speaker 1: same thing. I would have said something along the lines
[4:44:22] Speaker 1: of No, I don't know. I need to reflect on that.
[4:44:24] Speaker 1: Let me think about that, right, Yeah, I think that's
[4:44:26] Speaker 1: a fair response, and I appreciate that because you know,
[4:44:29] Speaker 1: most people will get up here and rather than just
[4:44:32] Speaker 1: saying I don't know, let me think about it, what
[4:44:36] Speaker 1: will happen is they'll like, they'll say crazy justifications like well,
[4:44:41] Speaker 1: it's okay to murder babies sometimes.
[4:44:43] Speaker 9: Yeah.
[4:44:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a difficult question, right because you know,
[4:44:47] Speaker 2: speaking to murdering babies, you now, I'm I'm pro life,
[4:44:50] Speaker 2: virgin and abolitionist for abortion, and like I truly believe
[4:44:53] Speaker 2: in the protection of all life, regardless of what the
[4:44:56] Speaker 2: life is, whether it's conscious or not, in what age.
[4:44:59] Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a difficult it's a difficult.
[4:45:00] Speaker 2: Question to uh, to ask yourself. Is any human being
[4:45:05] Speaker 2: you know anyone who says it's not as lying?
[4:45:08] Speaker 1: That's for sure, right, So let me I want to
[4:45:12] Speaker 1: take you to one other difficult passage if you don't mind,
[4:45:16] Speaker 1: and it's it's getting late in the night, so I
[4:45:18] Speaker 1: can't stay up late tonight last couple of live streams,
[4:45:20] Speaker 1: but I stayed up until like two in the morning,
[4:45:22] Speaker 1: and it completely.
[4:45:23] Speaker 2: I don't want to get too late. I mean, I
[4:45:24] Speaker 2: could definitely call in again. I'm enjoying this conversation.
[4:45:27] Speaker 1: Well, I was just saying, I don't mind getting to
[4:45:29] Speaker 1: bed before, like around midnight, but like I have to
[4:45:32] Speaker 1: wake up early tomorrow to meet my my good buddy
[4:45:34] Speaker 1: at the gym, and I I don't want to do
[4:45:37] Speaker 1: it going to bed at two in the morning, but
[4:45:39] Speaker 1: I want to read. I do want to read one
[4:45:42] Speaker 1: passage with you, okay, because I think this this passage
[4:45:49] Speaker 1: I feel. I think it's it's more definitive than talking
[4:45:56] Speaker 1: about like punishment from Adam and Eve. So there's an
[4:45:59] Speaker 1: interesting passage in Deuteronomy twenty one. And you and I
[4:46:04] Speaker 1: both know that God allowed his people to go to war,
[4:46:07] Speaker 1: but listen to what it says about this. It says,
[4:46:09] Speaker 1: when you go out to war against your enemies, and
[4:46:11] Speaker 1: the Lord your God hands them over to you, you
[4:46:14] Speaker 1: shall take them captive. The pose you see among the
[4:46:17] Speaker 1: captives a beautiful woman whom you desire and want to marry,
[4:46:20] Speaker 1: So you bring her to your home, your house. She
[4:46:23] Speaker 1: shall shave her head, pare her nails, discard her captive's garb,
[4:46:27] Speaker 1: and remain in your house a full month mourning for
[4:46:30] Speaker 1: her father and mother. After that you may go into
[4:46:33] Speaker 1: her and be her husband, and she should be your wife.
[4:46:36] Speaker 1: Right this, I think butts up against a really fundamental
[4:46:42] Speaker 1: internal thing that we have as human beings, which is
[4:46:46] Speaker 1: that we kind of think kidnapping other people and putting
[4:46:51] Speaker 1: them into forced marriages is bad, right, even if they
[4:46:56] Speaker 1: are a war enemy, Like if we if Canada started
[4:46:59] Speaker 1: a war with us, we wouldn't say, well, it would
[4:47:01] Speaker 1: be okay to kidnap their women and force them in
[4:47:04] Speaker 1: the marriages.
[4:47:05] Speaker 2: Right, right, yeah, yeah, of course, Like yeah, ethics today,
[4:47:12] Speaker 2: it's a.
[4:47:12] Speaker 1: Struggle for me right to think about the biblical God
[4:47:14] Speaker 1: being all good. But then at the same time hearing
[4:47:17] Speaker 1: them say well you can kidnap women and children in war,
[4:47:20] Speaker 1: and you.
[4:47:22] Speaker 2: Know, yeah, and I think the shaving of the head
[4:47:25] Speaker 2: and nails I do.
[4:47:27] Speaker 3: I have.
[4:47:28] Speaker 2: I've tried to study the most difficult passages and like
[4:47:30] Speaker 2: look them up and try to understand cultural, historical and
[4:47:36] Speaker 2: his you know, archaeological findings that money show from the
[4:47:40] Speaker 2: signs of like what exactly this meant in this passage here?
[4:47:44] Speaker 2: I know, the shaving of the head and the trimming
[4:47:45] Speaker 2: of nails I believe was remember was it some it's
[4:47:52] Speaker 2: for purity and you're learned, like signal that she's leaving
[4:47:55] Speaker 2: her old life and then his underway under protection underneath
[4:48:00] Speaker 2: Wasn't that what that means?
[4:48:02] Speaker 1: So there have been a number of scholars that posited
[4:48:05] Speaker 1: a symbolic meaning to this. I think most scholars of
[4:48:08] Speaker 1: the Old Testament would say that the shaving of the
[4:48:11] Speaker 1: head and the clipping on the nails is for purity reasons.
[4:48:15] Speaker 1: You know, the Jewish people had very very strict laws
[4:48:19] Speaker 1: about individual purity, and like even like when you came
[4:48:24] Speaker 1: back from war, if you stole a bunch of like
[4:48:26] Speaker 1: metal or bronze vessels in war, they had to go
[4:48:30] Speaker 1: through a purity ritual. They either got burned with fire
[4:48:33] Speaker 1: or like if you touched a dead body in the
[4:48:36] Speaker 1: Book of Numbers, chapter nineteen, you have to burn a
[4:48:39] Speaker 1: red heifer, put the ashes in water, and purify yourself
[4:48:43] Speaker 1: with red heifer water ashes. Right, So, like this seems
[4:48:47] Speaker 1: to be akin to a purity ritual and maybe not
[4:48:50] Speaker 1: a symbolic ritual, but I get it. If it's a
[4:48:54] Speaker 1: symbolic ritual, I don't think it's I don't know if
[4:48:58] Speaker 1: it's much better because you're like you're trying to erase
[4:49:00] Speaker 1: a woman's identity.
[4:49:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that comes from those ancient yeariestern cultures.
[4:49:07] Speaker 1: Right.
[4:49:07] Speaker 2: I think there were certain things that were culturally relevant
[4:49:10] Speaker 2: at the time. You know, there's that famous phrase where
[4:49:13] Speaker 2: the Bible wasn't written to you, it was written for you, right,
[4:49:18] Speaker 2: So a lot of what was written in that time
[4:49:21] Speaker 2: was written for the people at that time, not people
[4:49:24] Speaker 2: in our time. There was the Old Covenant and the
[4:49:27] Speaker 2: New Covenant.
[4:49:28] Speaker 6: Right.
[4:49:29] Speaker 2: God walked the isle between the sacrificed bodies, and you
[4:49:33] Speaker 2: know Abraham fell estation. God walke the isle to forge
[4:49:36] Speaker 2: the covenant with man, and he God said, you know
[4:49:40] Speaker 2: he was That was God's promise to keep man from
[4:49:43] Speaker 2: turning their backs on him and further diverging into sin.
[4:49:47] Speaker 2: And we kept going down the road. We had hardened hearts.
[4:49:50] Speaker 2: God took these laws in place full people with hardened hearts.
[4:49:54] Speaker 2: But then throughout the Old Testament and a lot of
[4:49:57] Speaker 2: these cultural sacrifices for cleanliness, like you had said, right,
[4:50:01] Speaker 2: a lot of that theme from God sending his son
[4:50:04] Speaker 2: down in the flesh to die for our things, to
[4:50:08] Speaker 2: shed the blood of the sacrificial lam so that we
[4:50:11] Speaker 2: didn't have to live with hardened hearts on there, we
[4:50:13] Speaker 2: didn't have to capture women from their tribes and shave
[4:50:16] Speaker 2: their head and trimming nails and peg gas clothes and.
[4:50:20] Speaker 1: Right just where you don't have to do the preaching
[4:50:22] Speaker 1: bit here we all know the story.
[4:50:25] Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not trying to preach. I'm just just
[4:50:27] Speaker 2: speaking to what. Like, I'm just speaking to what I believe.
[4:50:29] Speaker 2: I'm not right, so you know, Yeah, sorry, Mike.
[4:50:33] Speaker 1: Gripe with this passage is not that a woman's identity
[4:50:36] Speaker 1: is being raised, my gripe. I mean, I think that's bad.
[4:50:38] Speaker 1: But I think my gripe with this passage is that
[4:50:42] Speaker 1: this is insisting that there are occasions and it seems
[4:50:46] Speaker 1: pretty broad, where like you can just kidnap women and
[4:50:50] Speaker 1: force them to be your wife. Do you like you
[4:50:53] Speaker 1: don't think that these women had consent to you?
[4:50:57] Speaker 2: No, but is this God telling them to do it?
[4:51:00] Speaker 1: Yeah? All the laws of Deuteronomy come from God. In
[4:51:03] Speaker 1: Deuteronomy six y four, Moses tells them that all of
[4:51:06] Speaker 1: these laws come from God, right and so, and then
[4:51:10] Speaker 1: he wraps it up too. And in fact, just to
[4:51:14] Speaker 1: put a bow on this, if you fast forward to
[4:51:17] Speaker 1: Deuteronomy thirty, it talks about how these laws are going
[4:51:21] Speaker 1: to be followed even in the Messianic age. It says
[4:51:23] Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy thirty six, it says moreover, the Lord your
[4:51:28] Speaker 1: God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants,
[4:51:30] Speaker 1: so that you will love the Lord your God with
[4:51:32] Speaker 1: all your heart, with all your soul, in order that
[4:51:34] Speaker 1: you may live. The Lord your God will put all
[4:51:36] Speaker 1: these curses on your enemies and on the adversaries you
[4:51:39] Speaker 1: took advantage of you. Then you shall again obey the Lord,
[4:51:43] Speaker 1: observing all of his commandments that I am commanding you today.
[4:51:47] Speaker 1: So Moses is saying, like, when the time period comes
[4:51:49] Speaker 1: where God finally circumcises the heart of the people, you're
[4:51:51] Speaker 1: going to follow these commandments.
[4:51:53] Speaker 14: And to add to that real quick, if you go
[4:51:55] Speaker 14: to Deuteronomy twenty verse ten, going through sixteen, we get
[4:52:01] Speaker 14: kind of a lead into what causes this right. So
[4:52:04] Speaker 14: it mentions, you know, once they crossed into the Promised Land.
[4:52:09] Speaker 14: When you draw near a town to fight against it,
[4:52:12] Speaker 14: offer it terms of peace. If it accepts your terms
[4:52:15] Speaker 14: of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people
[4:52:18] Speaker 14: in it shall serve you at forced labor right. But
[4:52:21] Speaker 14: if it does not accept your terms of peace and
[4:52:25] Speaker 14: makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. And
[4:52:28] Speaker 14: when the Lord your God gives it into your hand,
[4:52:31] Speaker 14: you shall put all its mails to the sword. You may, however,
[4:52:34] Speaker 14: take the as you're plunder the women, the children, livestock,
[4:52:37] Speaker 14: and everything else in the town, all it spoils. So
[4:52:41] Speaker 14: this verse that we were just reading about cutting the
[4:52:43] Speaker 14: hair and parring the nails seems to be the case
[4:52:46] Speaker 14: of these people chose war. They chose to go to war,
[4:52:51] Speaker 14: and now the women are the plunder and if they
[4:52:54] Speaker 14: see one that they like, then they can execute the
[4:52:58] Speaker 14: shaving of the head and paring of the knells.
[4:53:02] Speaker 2: Okay, I appreciate these passages you guys point these out.
[4:53:08] Speaker 2: I think these are difficult passages that I definitely want
[4:53:11] Speaker 2: to look into more. Sure, I appreciate you guys talking
[4:53:15] Speaker 2: with me about this. I definitely want to fall on again.
[4:53:18] Speaker 2: I did really enjoy this conversation, and yeah, I thank
[4:53:23] Speaker 2: you for giving me the opportunity to hop on here.
[4:53:26] Speaker 2: I don't want to keep you up too late, but yeah,
[4:53:30] Speaker 2: offer for a call back in I'm going to reflect
[4:53:31] Speaker 2: on these passages. I think they're really difficult passages to accept,
[4:53:35] Speaker 2: especially in the world that we live in today. I
[4:53:37] Speaker 2: think it's also difficult to look at the history of
[4:53:43] Speaker 2: mankind to the lens of presentism. I think that always
[4:53:46] Speaker 2: becomes a difficult thing for us to try to counteract
[4:53:49] Speaker 2: when we're reading history. So I think that that's another
[4:53:52] Speaker 2: piece that I need to reflect on too, is like,
[4:53:54] Speaker 2: how am I looking at these verses? Am I looking
[4:53:57] Speaker 2: at them through the lens of twenty twenty five morality?
[4:54:00] Speaker 2: Or am I looking at the lens of the morality
[4:54:02] Speaker 2: at the time? How does it apply to God? I
[4:54:06] Speaker 2: listened to some of your conversation earlier about God nature changing.
[4:54:10] Speaker 2: So yeah, there's there's definitely a lot to reflect on
[4:54:12] Speaker 2: just in the very short period of time you listening
[4:54:13] Speaker 2: to this, So yeah, I appreciate it. Start provoking conversations.
[4:54:17] Speaker 1: Yeah, Craig, You've been a delightful person to talk to.
[4:54:20] Speaker 1: And I know these are difficult passages because when I
[4:54:22] Speaker 1: was a Christian, these are a lot of the passages
[4:54:24] Speaker 1: I had to wrestle with. I was, you know, I
[4:54:27] Speaker 1: was in the hot seat at one point in my
[4:54:29] Speaker 1: life too, and so I get that it's difficult, and
[4:54:31] Speaker 1: I get that like this, like, when you're presented with
[4:54:34] Speaker 1: these passages, you're not just gonna like flip a switch
[4:54:36] Speaker 1: and be like, oh, that's horrible, Like you're like, I
[4:54:39] Speaker 1: need to look into it, and so you know, I
[4:54:41] Speaker 1: think that's perfectly fair, and I hope that you do
[4:54:43] Speaker 1: look into it and come back and have another conversation
[4:54:46] Speaker 1: with us.
[4:54:47] Speaker 2: I'd love it. Thank you both.
[4:54:49] Speaker 14: In fact, I'm Jewish and I was reading the Slavery
[4:54:52] Speaker 14: Verses and my grandpa was a rabbi, and as I
[4:54:56] Speaker 14: was reading the Slavery verses, I was about I was sixteen,
[4:55:00] Speaker 14: and I struggled with him. I'm like, wait a minute,
[4:55:02] Speaker 14: we as Jews can't be slaves anymore, but if if
[4:55:07] Speaker 14: we're still living under under like Temple era whatever, we'd
[4:55:11] Speaker 14: still be able to enslave other people. And I wasn't
[4:55:14] Speaker 14: okay with it. And when I want to go ask
[4:55:15] Speaker 14: my grandpa about it, he was like, hey, we're Jews,
[4:55:19] Speaker 14: we wrestle with the law. It's your burden to wrestle
[4:55:21] Speaker 14: with it. Just wrestle with it. And that just wasn't
[4:55:24] Speaker 14: wasn't compelling for me. I'm like, no, this is wrong,
[4:55:27] Speaker 14: this is horrid.
[4:55:28] Speaker 2: That's very dismissive. And I'm sorry that you receive that
[4:55:32] Speaker 2: response from your grandfather. I think that's upsetting that certain.
[4:55:36] Speaker 1: But Craig, thanks for coming to chat with us. I
[4:55:38] Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and hopefully we'll hear from me again
[4:55:41] Speaker 1: in the future. Thanks guys, good cares what nice guy?
[4:55:47] Speaker 1: It was a nice guy.
[4:55:48] Speaker 14: Last two guests were to lightsome.
[4:55:50] Speaker 1: Isn't that a good palate cleanser at the end of
[4:55:52] Speaker 1: a live stream to get two nice people? It is?
[4:55:55] Speaker 1: It is?
[4:55:56] Speaker 14: I was gonna mention before we brought that guess up.
[4:55:58] Speaker 14: I think when it comes to the tre I think
[4:56:01] Speaker 14: Mormons got it right. Three distinct individuals that live in
[4:56:04] Speaker 14: on a star planet next to the star colob.
[4:56:08] Speaker 3: I think they got to figure it out.
[4:56:10] Speaker 1: Listen, they could Bertram, thank you for the dinosaur. They
[4:56:12] Speaker 1: could have just went to polytheism and that nobody would
[4:56:16] Speaker 1: have blamed them. If the Christians was like, oh, we're potheists,
[4:56:20] Speaker 1: like nobody would have blamed them, like oh okay, well
[4:56:22] Speaker 1: you're PROTHEUS now. And the people could be like, well,
[4:56:25] Speaker 1: God says there's only one God in the Old Testament,
[4:56:28] Speaker 1: and they'd be like, well look aga him, motherfucker. Now
[4:56:30] Speaker 1: he's too God can do whatever he wants, rights to
[4:56:33] Speaker 1: curred another god, he.
[4:56:34] Speaker 14: Could do it well. And that's the Mormon's answer. The
[4:56:37] Speaker 14: Mormon's answer because they believe in exaltation, so they believe
[4:56:41] Speaker 14: they can become gods. So they're really Henotheists. But the
[4:56:46] Speaker 14: Yahweh is just the God of this universe. He's the
[4:56:49] Speaker 14: God we worship. They believe Yahweh has a god he worships,
[4:56:53] Speaker 14: and so Mormons kind of really fix a lot of
[4:56:56] Speaker 14: these questions. They cause a whole lot of other problems
[4:56:59] Speaker 14: of theun because of their text, like tree chunk submarines.
[4:57:03] Speaker 1: But yeah, oh my god, so bad. Uh listen, Cyber,
[4:57:10] Speaker 1: thank you so much for hanging out with me, and
[4:57:13] Speaker 1: we did some cooking before you, uh, before you were here.
[4:57:16] Speaker 1: But I'll be live again on the same channel on Monday.
[4:57:21] Speaker 1: Come back and hang out with me.
[4:57:23] Speaker 14: Yeah, I will, I definitely will. I appreciate it. Thanks
[4:57:25] Speaker 14: for having me up.
[4:57:26] Speaker 1: I think you guys make sure you're following Cyber Deconstruction
[4:57:28] Speaker 1: on YouTube and on TikTok. He's on both platforms. He's
[4:57:31] Speaker 1: a good friend of mine. He's sharp, he's got good content.
[4:57:34] Speaker 14: I think you like him, and I should be going
[4:57:36] Speaker 14: live here again shortly. I'm getting married next month. I
[4:57:43] Speaker 14: thank you, thank you, and I'm just getting like a
[4:57:45] Speaker 14: mini studio set up, so hopefully once that's all set up,
[4:57:48] Speaker 14: hopefully I'll start going live again. So but I appreciate
[4:57:52] Speaker 14: it justin I appreciate you.
[4:57:53] Speaker 1: I appreciate you too, buddy, have a great one you too.
[4:57:58] Speaker 1: W Cyber, I didn't know he was a good and
[4:58:00] Speaker 1: married big w damn. All right, then let's read some
[4:58:04] Speaker 1: super chats friends. Gl thank you so much for the
[4:58:07] Speaker 1: nine ninety nine says, what's your take on the placer
[4:58:09] Speaker 1: hand under my thigh thing? What's going on there? My
[4:58:12] Speaker 1: understanding is that it's somewhat unique to the Hebrew Bible.
[4:58:16] Speaker 1: So the idea, the usage of the word in Hebrew
[4:58:19] Speaker 1: for thigh, and I forget exactly what it is. It
[4:58:24] Speaker 1: shows up elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible quite often referring
[4:58:28] Speaker 1: to like genitals, right, and so what seems to be
[4:58:34] Speaker 1: the case when Elias R. Takes a pledge and like,
[4:58:39] Speaker 1: the Christian commentators don't like this, but if you read
[4:58:42] Speaker 1: actual good old Testament theologians, they'll just admit to it.
[4:58:46] Speaker 1: It seems to be that the pledge is about the
[4:58:49] Speaker 1: seed of Abraham. You can't let the seed of Abraham
[4:58:53] Speaker 1: get corrupted by marrying like a Canaanite, right, so the
[4:58:58] Speaker 1: pledge was on He was literally cupping the seed or
[4:59:03] Speaker 1: the seed sack of Abraham to make the pledge. Put
[4:59:06] Speaker 1: your hand under my thigh, on my seed, and pledge
[4:59:10] Speaker 1: to my seed that you won't let my seed get corrupted.
[4:59:13] Speaker 1: That seems to be I think the most plausible reading
[4:59:17] Speaker 1: of it, and I can understand why most Christian theologians
[4:59:21] Speaker 1: don't want to actually say that out loud. But I mean,
[4:59:24] Speaker 1: it's a widely accepted view in the scholastic literature. It's
[4:59:28] Speaker 1: just one of those things where you can say it
[4:59:31] Speaker 1: in scholarly circles, but you can't say it in church.
[4:59:33] Speaker 1: People get really bent out of shape in church. So Adam,
[4:59:37] Speaker 1: thank you for the FindOut superjest, says Luke. Bryson wrote
[4:59:39] Speaker 1: a book about Plato's Timaeus and how it relates to
[4:59:44] Speaker 1: the Big Bang and the problem of scientific language. You
[4:59:47] Speaker 1: should check it out. Maybe I will. I promised Ian
[4:59:50] Speaker 1: that I would eventually read modern philosophy, but I'm starting
[4:59:54] Speaker 1: with the old stuff. I'm reading some of the basics
[4:59:58] Speaker 1: before I read the modern stuff. That way, when they
[5:00:00] Speaker 1: reference some of the older guys, I'm like, oh, yeah,
[5:00:03] Speaker 1: I remember reading that. I get you know it just
[5:00:05] Speaker 1: makes it easier. You know, it's like trying to read.
[5:00:08] Speaker 1: You should oh, thank you for the crown, due gaud.
[5:00:10] Speaker 1: You should read the Bible before you read books about
[5:00:13] Speaker 1: the Bible. That's basically what I'm doing. Adam says, the
[5:00:16] Speaker 1: best argument for the trinity look at the look at
[5:00:19] Speaker 1: the trees. Indeed, actually, I think the best argument for
[5:00:23] Speaker 1: the Trinity I ever heard was actually about a three
[5:00:29] Speaker 1: part tree, one tree trunk with multip with three branches.
[5:00:33] Speaker 1: But that's that still ends up in partialism. Who who
[5:00:41] Speaker 1: kneverse review? I see what you did their universe review.
[5:00:45] Speaker 1: Thank you for the supertest, says Justin You're awesome. I
[5:00:48] Speaker 1: wish you would be able to debate my retired pastor
[5:00:51] Speaker 1: dad or my pastor's sister. I mean, maybe get them
[5:00:55] Speaker 1: on the stream. We've had quite a few pastors get
[5:00:59] Speaker 1: up here. It always ends not so well for them.
[5:01:01] Speaker 1: But I mean, what do you expect?
[5:01:03] Speaker 6: Right?
[5:01:04] Speaker 1: But yeah, like I my stream is accessible and available
[5:01:07] Speaker 1: to anybody who wants to watch. Even if they don't
[5:01:10] Speaker 1: get up to debate me. Maybe they'll be angry enough
[5:01:13] Speaker 1: that I exist that they'll at least watch me. Can
[5:01:17] Speaker 1: best great to see, so I think it for the
[5:01:19] Speaker 1: thirteen ninety nine Canadian Dour says, keep up the good fight.
[5:01:22] Speaker 1: Need it now more than ever. I couldn't agree, canbst.
[5:01:25] Speaker 1: One of the reasons why I'm so eager to push
[5:01:28] Speaker 1: my work forward is because of the current state of affairs.
[5:01:32] Speaker 1: I feel like it's getting worse, not better. And David Burke,
[5:01:35] Speaker 1: thank you so so much for the nineteen ninety nine
[5:01:37] Speaker 1: dollars Supertest says True True, Pat True, Peter, True, Peter,
[5:01:43] Speaker 1: and all the other of these people. The more they talk,
[5:01:47] Speaker 1: the more I question how I ever believe one word
[5:01:49] Speaker 1: of this giant, unadulterated pile of bowl crap. I feel
[5:01:53] Speaker 1: like I'm going crazy when they talk. I get it
[5:01:56] Speaker 1: like it's when you read it now from this lens,
[5:01:59] Speaker 1: it's hard hard to read it and be like, oh,
[5:02:01] Speaker 1: I used to believe that because it's like it seems
[5:02:04] Speaker 1: so absurd, you know what I mean. But when you
[5:02:08] Speaker 1: when you're already in the cult, when you've already accepted it,
[5:02:11] Speaker 1: you're willing to accept the absurd. What one of those things?
[5:02:16] Speaker 1: Asher is oldest daughter and thinking for the Supertest, says, see,
[5:02:19] Speaker 1: Justin doesn't know the day nor the hour, but it's
[5:02:22] Speaker 1: coming soon. Hi, Justin. I agree with an evolving God
[5:02:25] Speaker 1: because it's alongside humans. I agree, right, that's my open
[5:02:29] Speaker 1: theism makes so much sense. An evolving god makes more sense.
[5:02:35] Speaker 1: This omni character is is not a believable character. And
[5:02:41] Speaker 1: we've got a super test from our friend love barb Bill.
[5:02:46] Speaker 14: Lo bar Bill.
[5:02:47] Speaker 1: Great. They've almost had to unfollow when you called soda pop,
[5:02:52] Speaker 1: but I'll stick around since you're so good at barbecue.
[5:02:55] Speaker 1: I think I appreciate that, Love Barbie Bill. I do
[5:02:58] Speaker 1: say pop, not soda. I certainly don't say soda pop.
[5:03:03] Speaker 1: What kind of ridiculous thing would that be? But you
[5:03:07] Speaker 1: know I am what I am. I'm a yank. You
[5:03:09] Speaker 1: know I've got my own language. Design says suffering is
[5:03:13] Speaker 1: a result of free will. Unless God is using you
[5:03:16] Speaker 1: to cause someone else's suffering, to punish, to punish their
[5:03:20] Speaker 1: free will, then you get hell thanks for your service.
[5:03:24] Speaker 1: I mean, that's about it. It's crazy how they want
[5:03:27] Speaker 1: to cling to the free will argument full will, knowing
[5:03:31] Speaker 1: that the New Testament doesn't say a damn thing about
[5:03:33] Speaker 1: you having free will. That's ridiculous. And uh, Sussony, thank
[5:03:41] Speaker 1: you so much for the supergest says since God considers
[5:03:44] Speaker 1: us knowing good versus evil a bad thing. He probably
[5:03:47] Speaker 1: didn't want us to figure out that. He's a massive prick.
[5:03:50] Speaker 1: That's why. That's why he wanted people not to know
[5:03:53] Speaker 1: the difference between good and evil, because God wanted to
[5:03:55] Speaker 1: do some evil shit and not be found out. I
[5:03:58] Speaker 1: mean that makes perfect sense. This plays right into the
[5:04:00] Speaker 1: evil God hypothesis, like there's an evil God. He didn't
[5:04:04] Speaker 1: want you to know about it. Now that you know
[5:04:06] Speaker 1: about it, he's like, ah, fuck whatever, I'm gonna do
[5:04:10] Speaker 1: it anyways. And people are like, Okay, I love you
[5:04:13] Speaker 1: do the evil shit. Helping Mega deconstruct says praise Doug
[5:04:18] Speaker 1: and Share and Tonight's dream has shown how a lack
[5:04:21] Speaker 1: of thinking can lead a person to the dark side
[5:04:23] Speaker 1: Christianity to Christian nationalism. To Mega, yeah, I mean.
[5:04:31] Speaker 7: It is the case.
[5:04:32] Speaker 1: I mean, this type of thinking is what lends itself
[5:04:35] Speaker 1: to fascism. This is what it is, and shares all
[5:04:40] Speaker 1: his daughter again says if we sin because of pride,
[5:04:43] Speaker 1: and pride is a sin, then sin was already here.
[5:04:46] Speaker 1: If God knows all, then it's all or nothing. And
[5:04:50] Speaker 1: it makes me how people limit God when they make
[5:04:52] Speaker 1: them limit and then make them limit list justin I
[5:04:56] Speaker 1: love it here, well, thank you, I love to have
[5:04:59] Speaker 1: you here. And it really is weird because like a
[5:05:02] Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that God says, his pride, like envy, jealousy,
[5:05:07] Speaker 1: like these are characters says of God, God's describing himself covetness, covetousness.
[5:05:15] Speaker 1: God nobody covets more than God. He's the most covetous
[5:05:18] Speaker 1: asshole in the universe. It's crazy how rules never applied
[5:05:22] Speaker 1: to the God of the Bible. And uh Simeon says,
[5:05:26] Speaker 1: it's funny how Christians scream context but throw a fit
[5:05:29] Speaker 1: when you point out the context of Isaiah Ffty three
[5:05:31] Speaker 1: by reading the previous chapters. It's almost comical. I couldn't
[5:05:35] Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. It's crazy how the minute you
[5:05:38] Speaker 1: start talking about prophecies, all of a sudden, no no, no, no, no,
[5:05:42] Speaker 1: no no no, don't read the We don't need the context.
[5:05:45] Speaker 1: The context is not important whatsoever. The original context means nothing.
[5:05:49] Speaker 1: They didn't even know that they were prophesying. The craziest
[5:05:53] Speaker 1: I'll never understand that. One eighty that's the craziest Christian
[5:05:56] Speaker 1: one eighty. Okay, thank you for the ten that our
[5:05:58] Speaker 1: supertest says, was wondering they being that's all powerful, is
[5:06:02] Speaker 1: there any any is there ever anything that's necessary? And
[5:06:06] Speaker 1: also with being that perfect or that is perfect, wouldn't
[5:06:10] Speaker 1: everything he does need to be perfect and therefore necessary.
[5:06:13] Speaker 1: So this is two questions we ask a lot in
[5:06:15] Speaker 1: the community. One is, if he's all powerful, does he
[5:06:19] Speaker 1: have to do anything by necessity? And the only good
[5:06:22] Speaker 1: answer to that is only if he decides that he
[5:06:26] Speaker 1: wants to introduce other entities with free will, and then
[5:06:30] Speaker 1: he is his desire to allow them to make their
[5:06:34] Speaker 1: own decisions rather than make decisions for themselves. But then again,
[5:06:38] Speaker 1: like if he's all knowing, he already knew what they
[5:06:41] Speaker 1: were going to do when he created them, which means
[5:06:43] Speaker 1: he created what they're doing, which it's it just it's
[5:06:46] Speaker 1: a crazy cycle. But the second question is if he's
[5:06:52] Speaker 1: all perfect, wouldn't everything he created be perfect? Well, it
[5:06:55] Speaker 1: depends on what you mean about perfect, because like if
[5:06:58] Speaker 1: if it's perfect to him to make imperfect beings and
[5:07:02] Speaker 1: technically you could say it's perfect, I think it's like
[5:07:04] Speaker 1: a shitty argument because like the Christians would rightly conclude
[5:07:08] Speaker 1: that humans did a thing that God didn't want them
[5:07:10] Speaker 1: to do, like God regretted making humans in Genesis. So
[5:07:14] Speaker 1: if God regretted making them, then it would entail that
[5:07:17] Speaker 1: he didn't make them perfectly, because if he made them perfectly,
[5:07:20] Speaker 1: that means they would have done exactly what he wanted
[5:07:22] Speaker 1: them to do, which means he wouldn't have regretted making them.
[5:07:25] Speaker 1: It's just there's a lot of crazy stuff in there.
[5:07:28] Speaker 1: Miss Pickle says Craig thinks that at some point it
[5:07:31] Speaker 1: was perfectly fine to harm women. It gives of predator vibes.
[5:07:36] Speaker 1: I know, I know, I should rewrite a Bible passage
[5:07:41] Speaker 1: about this happening to men and see what he thinks.
[5:07:44] Speaker 1: I'm just curious if it would change his mind. Help
[5:07:47] Speaker 1: me make a Deconstruct says, thanks for rating Taco's stream Wednesday.
[5:07:51] Speaker 1: Not I heard the dumbest question and got sucked into
[5:07:55] Speaker 1: going live to my neighbor's entertainment at one am. I'm sorry.
[5:08:00] Speaker 1: Taco's live streams are really interesting. I think they're unique.
[5:08:03] Speaker 1: I think they're interesting, and he's a good friend of mine,
[5:08:06] Speaker 1: so I think people should know about him. He does
[5:08:09] Speaker 1: really cool stuff. He's not on TikTok yet. I'm trying
[5:08:12] Speaker 1: to push him to get on TikTok. I don't know
[5:08:13] Speaker 1: if he will, but I think his presuppositionalist argument work
[5:08:17] Speaker 1: would work pretty well.
[5:08:18] Speaker 3: Here.
[5:08:19] Speaker 1: Aaron Fieler says, heads up on your store, there's a
[5:08:23] Speaker 1: mislabeled product. There's a Filbro Tears mug and a Fareborough
[5:08:27] Speaker 1: Tears sticker labeled also as a mug ps. Doug bricks
[5:08:33] Speaker 1: me up. Sorry about that. So with the shop that
[5:08:36] Speaker 1: I have, unfortunately, the way it works is like you
[5:08:39] Speaker 1: make an object and you name it. If you want
[5:08:42] Speaker 1: to take that same design and put it on other stuff,
[5:08:45] Speaker 1: it doesn't. It doesn't give you the option of renaming
[5:08:47] Speaker 1: the other stuff. It's kind of weird and like you
[5:08:52] Speaker 1: could go in and just individually create one hundred different things.
[5:08:56] Speaker 1: But the problem is, like if you like the Fairbrough
[5:08:58] Speaker 1: Tears mug and you click on it, it won't show
[5:09:03] Speaker 1: you the other Philbro Tiers items because they're now classified
[5:09:07] Speaker 1: is entirely separate items. Right, So the way I've got
[5:09:11] Speaker 1: it categorized is if you click on like the Doug's
[5:09:14] Speaker 1: Pretzel Factory item, it'll bring up all the other items.
[5:09:19] Speaker 1: It says Doug's Pretzel Factory because the way it's classified.
[5:09:22] Speaker 1: But Unfortunately, the way it's classified requires that it robs
[5:09:26] Speaker 1: the name of the original item in the group that
[5:09:29] Speaker 1: you made. I can't make a custom group name for it.
[5:09:32] Speaker 1: So it's just one of the It's just one of
[5:09:33] Speaker 1: those weird things with the website that I'm using that
[5:09:36] Speaker 1: I can't really do much about. It's silly. I know,
[5:09:39] Speaker 1: I apologize, but I'm stuck with it for now. It's just,
[5:09:42] Speaker 1: you know. Michael says, shrug for Sharon and Doug. Oh,
[5:09:47] Speaker 1: I like that play on words. That's pretty good. I
[5:09:50] Speaker 1: am working. I am going to get an emoji up
[5:09:52] Speaker 1: for sinfully wet for Sharon. That that's the thing that's
[5:09:56] Speaker 1: happening and helping. Mega says I'm ready for a Friday
[5:09:59] Speaker 1: night barbecue with Doug. And listen, not when you're ready.
[5:10:02] Speaker 1: You've been here the entire time, big w tu. Michael
[5:10:05] Speaker 1: came back as well and says, Doug and Sharon making
[5:10:08] Speaker 1: pretzels out of believers, that's what they do best. That's
[5:10:11] Speaker 1: what they they make non believers rock hard and believers
[5:10:14] Speaker 1: into pretzels. And Jake cow says, we love and thank
[5:10:18] Speaker 1: you justin well, Jake, how I love and appreciate you friend.
[5:10:21] Speaker 1: Thank you for being here, thank you for supporting the stream,
[5:10:24] Speaker 1: and Bevan says, love you justin worst Christian denomination, Oh,
[5:10:28] Speaker 1: that's a tough one. Well, I appreciate that, Brett b
[5:10:31] Speaker 1: Brevin breathing. I don't know if there's a worst, but
[5:10:35] Speaker 1: I think the ones that I hate the most are
[5:10:37] Speaker 1: any of them in the prosperity Gospel category. I think
[5:10:40] Speaker 1: the Prosperity Gospel is evil. I think it's horrific. I
[5:10:45] Speaker 1: think it is the most abusive denomination that is popular.
[5:10:50] Speaker 1: We could definitely point to some Christian denominations that are
[5:10:53] Speaker 1: more abusive, but they're on like a much smaller scale, you.
[5:10:56] Speaker 6: Know what I mean.
[5:10:58] Speaker 1: So there's that, but yeah, I mean it is. Yeah,
[5:11:04] Speaker 1: I hate the Prosperity Gospel. Stephen says, does the New Covenant?
[5:11:08] Speaker 1: Does the New Covenant change Moses's law? Confused? Well, no,
[5:11:13] Speaker 1: if you read the Old Testament is not supposed to.
[5:11:16] Speaker 1: If you talk to Jesus, it's not supposed to. It's
[5:11:19] Speaker 1: not until you get after Jesus's death that people are
[5:11:22] Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, the law does change. We don't
[5:11:24] Speaker 1: have to do it anymore because the Bible is inherently contradictory.
[5:11:28] Speaker 1: Good question from good question, Good questions is hopefully I
[5:11:31] Speaker 1: can talk to you to today. Well maybe I don't
[5:11:33] Speaker 1: know if you called in ads, so if you did,
[5:11:36] Speaker 1: I didn't see anybody in my Q named good question.
[5:11:39] Speaker 1: But thanks for being here. Thank you for the hat
[5:11:42] Speaker 1: crash out. I appreciate that. And gayis Husky says, your
[5:11:46] Speaker 1: argument made my face stronger equals I don't care for truth.
[5:11:50] Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many time I've laid down
[5:11:52] Speaker 1: a solid argument they have no answer for, and then
[5:11:54] Speaker 1: they leave the conversation being well, I'm my faith is
[5:11:58] Speaker 1: even okay, Yeah, whatever life you have to tell yourself.
[5:12:01] Speaker 1: And Mega says, I don't want to think, so God
[5:12:04] Speaker 1: is good, great logic, that's it, right. I don't want
[5:12:07] Speaker 1: to question or think about God being good. Therefore he
[5:12:10] Speaker 1: must be good because he's defined as good. Right, it's
[5:12:12] Speaker 1: an easy way out. And the hum says, straight from
[5:12:16] Speaker 1: my heart, shrooms contain philocybin, so not cybacillin. Yeah, I
[5:12:23] Speaker 1: fucked those two syllables up a lot, or those two
[5:12:27] Speaker 1: parts of the word philocybin not cybacillin. Yeah, I get
[5:12:32] Speaker 1: them mixed. Eventually, I'll get it right. And I do
[5:12:37] Speaker 1: appreciate the correction. I get some assholes in my comments
[5:12:40] Speaker 1: from the time to time that are real pricks about it.
[5:12:43] Speaker 1: And to be honest, like most people don't know the
[5:12:45] Speaker 1: difference because like most people don't use the word every day.
[5:12:48] Speaker 1: But eventually I will get it right. Eventually, I'm going
[5:12:51] Speaker 1: to say psilocybin rather than cybacillin. It's psilocybin philocybin. I'm
[5:12:56] Speaker 1: going to get it. Repetition is key. If they I'd
[5:13:00] Speaker 1: written it in the Bible, I would have memorized it already.
[5:13:02] Speaker 1: I just got to write it in my Bible somewhere.
[5:13:04] Speaker 1: Jays Huxley says church just charity to help the very
[5:13:09] Speaker 1: poverty it caused. Oh yes, if in fact the church
[5:13:14] Speaker 1: wasn't doing what it does, we probably have less poverty.
[5:13:19] Speaker 1: You don't need to take money from people. God should
[5:13:22] Speaker 1: have all your money. Michael says guests should be a politician.
[5:13:25] Speaker 1: If a lie isn't a lie, I know, I'll never
[5:13:28] Speaker 1: understand when they'll watch God saying something untrue, admit that
[5:13:33] Speaker 1: it's not true, and then say he didn't lie. No,
[5:13:35] Speaker 1: it's a lie. Miss Bickle says Ugi is making a
[5:13:39] Speaker 1: convert anti Semitic argument that the Israelites didn't have the intelligence,
[5:13:44] Speaker 1: so God had to lie, but not lie to them.
[5:13:47] Speaker 1: This is a fair point. I didn't think of it
[5:13:49] Speaker 1: in that particular way, but you could say that. You
[5:13:52] Speaker 1: could say, well, the ancient Israelites were too stupid to understand.
[5:13:55] Speaker 1: Although I don't know if that's its exact argument. I
[5:13:57] Speaker 1: think his argument would have been, like human beings in general,
[5:14:00] Speaker 1: we're too stupid to understand. But still I get what
[5:14:03] Speaker 1: you're saying, and it's a fair point. Peter, thank you
[5:14:07] Speaker 1: for the supertest, says God. If you do that, I'll
[5:14:10] Speaker 1: do this Jews. I don't understand what that means. That's
[5:14:15] Speaker 1: not how you build a relationship with bro. What I
[5:14:19] Speaker 1: know it's I'll never understand the excuses they'll make, endless excuses.
[5:14:27] Speaker 1: And Peter again says Arguementum, add, what do you mean
[5:14:32] Speaker 1: by mail this guy? What do you mean I'm being
[5:14:39] Speaker 1: deceived about the male? I don't understand what these words mean.
[5:14:43] Speaker 1: If ever, you get into a pickle, just pettifog, pettifog
[5:14:48] Speaker 1: your way right out of it. And Peter coming in again,
[5:14:51] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the supertest, says been dealing
[5:14:53] Speaker 1: with this since antiquity. Yeah, and you guys haven't even
[5:14:56] Speaker 1: dealt with the first slate of objection the Roman and
[5:15:01] Speaker 1: Jewish authors made. I know the objections made by the
[5:15:06] Speaker 1: early opponents to Christianity still stand. They still remained unanswered.
[5:15:11] Speaker 1: That's why like I used them in my arguments. And
[5:15:16] Speaker 1: Joshua says, thank you for your donation. Joshua, thank you
[5:15:19] Speaker 1: for your donation. As well as chip Tip says a
[5:15:23] Speaker 1: phil bro not arguing philosophy and being reasonable, the end
[5:15:27] Speaker 1: must be near. Listen. Actually, I agree that I was
[5:15:31] Speaker 1: so taken aback by the fact that I had an
[5:15:33] Speaker 1: orthophilbro who decided to come and engage honestly without filbrowing
[5:15:38] Speaker 1: like it made me like them. Gais Husky again says,
[5:15:42] Speaker 1: it's metaphor slash spirit, except the parts that lets me bash,
[5:15:47] Speaker 1: gaze and collectizes. Yes, that's parts literal. When God demands
[5:15:52] Speaker 1: a tie like in Malachi chapter three, that's clearly literal.
[5:15:56] Speaker 1: It's certainly not a metaphor. The stuff I don't like
[5:15:59] Speaker 1: that's got to be metaphor. And space Lord says God
[5:16:02] Speaker 1: is outside and above any category anyway, here's what he
[5:16:06] Speaker 1: is like in what he wants. I know, I never
[5:16:09] Speaker 1: understand it. When they'll say, like, you can't know or
[5:16:11] Speaker 1: understand anything about God, now let me tell you about them.
[5:16:15] Speaker 1: I think when people get into that position, I just
[5:16:18] Speaker 1: hammer it home and make them admit publicly that you
[5:16:22] Speaker 1: don't know anything about God, which means you can't claim
[5:16:25] Speaker 1: that He's not good. You can't make that claim. You
[5:16:28] Speaker 1: have to backpedal to being agnostic about God's goodness. And
[5:16:32] Speaker 1: Shay says, the best cooking show ever. I love listening
[5:16:35] Speaker 1: to your lives during work phraise Doug. Well, thank you, Shay.
[5:16:38] Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and what to honor that people are
[5:16:41] Speaker 1: going to work listening to me while they're going about
[5:16:43] Speaker 1: their job. I'm humbled by it. And Joshua again says,
[5:16:47] Speaker 1: does hell mean God can fail in his ability to save?
[5:16:51] Speaker 1: On top of what writhing wraith, on top of what
[5:16:56] Speaker 1: wrath brings glorification on top of that wrath brings glorification
[5:16:59] Speaker 1: to God. I think that is the case. If people
[5:17:02] Speaker 1: go to hell and God said that he desires it
[5:17:04] Speaker 1: none perish, that means he failed in his desire. And
[5:17:08] Speaker 1: that's why, like like open theism seems to fit better
[5:17:12] Speaker 1: with the notion of the of the biblical God. You know,
[5:17:16] Speaker 1: what I mean, because God shouldn't be able to fail,
[5:17:19] Speaker 1: and Tim, thinking for the finer supertes says, I'm on
[5:17:21] Speaker 1: my electric bike riding from Philadelphia to Easton, Pennsylvania, listening
[5:17:25] Speaker 1: to a roasting and twisting of pedzels. Well, I'm glad
[5:17:28] Speaker 1: you're having fun. I love biking. I need to do
[5:17:33] Speaker 1: more a bit. I'm trying to catch up from my
[5:17:35] Speaker 1: vacation when I wasn't streaming. But I love it. It's
[5:17:39] Speaker 1: such a good exercise. It's low impact and like you
[5:17:42] Speaker 1: can do it no matter what age you are, and
[5:17:44] Speaker 1: like so I enjoy other exercises. I love golf. I
[5:17:47] Speaker 1: used to go to the batting cages a lot. Actually
[5:17:50] Speaker 1: recently just went back to the batting cages this last
[5:17:53] Speaker 1: week because I was, like, you know, I haven't been
[5:17:55] Speaker 1: to the batting cages than damn near a decade. I
[5:17:57] Speaker 1: should go grab my bat, hit the batting cages for
[5:17:59] Speaker 1: like hour, right, I am not joking. I didn't even
[5:18:03] Speaker 1: survive a full hour. I literally pulled my hip tensor
[5:18:07] Speaker 1: muscle and had to like limp my way out of
[5:18:11] Speaker 1: the batting cages. I gave my tokens away to some
[5:18:13] Speaker 1: little girl who was obviously more fit for that exercise
[5:18:16] Speaker 1: than I was and had to like do the walk
[5:18:19] Speaker 1: of shame limping back to my car as an old person.
[5:18:21] Speaker 1: So like, yeah, biking seems like a much better option
[5:18:25] Speaker 1: than like throwing my hip out trying to swing a
[5:18:27] Speaker 1: baseball bat. I think I've just hit that age where
[5:18:30] Speaker 1: I have to admit that now I've got limitations. Design says,
[5:18:34] Speaker 1: the question makes no sense. Equals rubb's baby paste on
[5:18:37] Speaker 1: the skin. That's one hundred percent, but it puts the
[5:18:43] Speaker 1: baby paste on that. I mean, that really is the thing,
[5:18:47] Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's what's happening in these
[5:18:49] Speaker 1: live streams. Oh my goodness, and Pat good to see
[5:18:53] Speaker 1: if Pat Pat Pat says, does God have a boss
[5:18:55] Speaker 1: because he needs to be fired? I agree the God.
[5:18:58] Speaker 1: He's fucking everything up everything. Treypuler says, why does NPC
[5:19:03] Speaker 1: in background have a belly button? But because he's an MPC,
[5:19:08] Speaker 1: he's a generated character for novelty. But yeah, I mean,
[5:19:14] Speaker 1: theoretically God wouldn't need a belly button. Then again, again,
[5:19:16] Speaker 1: humans were made in God's image and humans have belly buttons,
[5:19:19] Speaker 1: which means maybe Theabriel thank you for gifting out a
[5:19:23] Speaker 1: DZ debate membership. I really appreciate that and carnage my
[5:19:26] Speaker 1: friend welcome back, Carne says, smash Mary un alive. I
[5:19:29] Speaker 1: love this game. Okay, here's my option to smash Mary
[5:19:32] Speaker 1: or unlive thin edition. It could be pride, wrath or gluttony. Well,
[5:19:37] Speaker 1: first of all, I'm marrying gluttony every day of the week.
[5:19:40] Speaker 1: That's just the thing. If I have to pick a smash,
[5:19:44] Speaker 1: it's going to be pride. Pride could be fun to
[5:19:46] Speaker 1: smash every once in a while. For something to kill
[5:19:50] Speaker 1: or to unlive, it's got to be wrath, not interested
[5:19:53] Speaker 1: in wrath. Not a violent person. I mean, like, I'm
[5:19:57] Speaker 1: borderline pacifist to begin with. Like I feel like like
[5:20:02] Speaker 1: even the act of protecting yourself has limitations, Like you
[5:20:05] Speaker 1: should never like if you have the option to protect
[5:20:09] Speaker 1: yourself without injuring the other party, I think you should.
[5:20:13] Speaker 1: Like if you have the option of just exiting the fight,
[5:20:17] Speaker 1: you should just exit the fight, like no one. You
[5:20:20] Speaker 1: shouldn't feel compelled to fight somebody that challenges you, Like
[5:20:23] Speaker 1: it's the dumbest thing. If somebody is being attacked or accosted,
[5:20:28] Speaker 1: then yeah, protect them by all means, Like if an
[5:20:30] Speaker 1: old lady's having your personal and yeah, go go take
[5:20:33] Speaker 1: care of business. But like if somebody is picking a
[5:20:35] Speaker 1: fight with me, I have the option to leave, like
[5:20:37] Speaker 1: I don't. No one has to get injured, like you
[5:20:40] Speaker 1: see what I'm saying, Like the only reason, Like if
[5:20:43] Speaker 1: someone's picking a fight with you and you can, you
[5:20:45] Speaker 1: can literally just walk away, and you choose to fight.
[5:20:49] Speaker 1: To me, that's just silly. You don't know if that
[5:20:51] Speaker 1: person's got a gun, you don't know if they have
[5:20:52] Speaker 1: a knife. But it's just a dumb It's it's bad logic.
[5:20:55] Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. Fighting should be like an
[5:20:59] Speaker 1: only like only when it's necessary, you know.
[5:21:02] Speaker 11: What I mean.
[5:21:02] Speaker 1: So wrath, you can keep it God, I don't need wrath.
[5:21:06] Speaker 1: I think we can go a lot further in life
[5:21:08] Speaker 1: without wrath. A Scherah thank you for the superchat says
[5:21:13] Speaker 1: why do people think they have to serve God? It
[5:21:15] Speaker 1: starts with human authority mixed with future punishment and earthly
[5:21:19] Speaker 1: It makes deconstruction for some two parts. First with emotions
[5:21:24] Speaker 1: the truth. I agree, I don't understand the imperative that
[5:21:29] Speaker 1: you need to worship God, the requirement or the imperative
[5:21:32] Speaker 1: that you must worship God only seems to stem from

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