# 2025-06-25 LIVE DEBATE \[God is Imaginary\] PART 2

An episode of [Deconstruction Zone](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1837730286), 17 Sep 2025, 5 h 11 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/67798412/2025_06_25_20_30_39.mp3

Live debating every theist on the planet. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Get Member Perks: https://www.youtube.com/@Deconstruction_Zone/join https://patreon.com/Deconstruction_Zone --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUPPORT THE STREAM: https://venmo.com/u/JHCOFFEEFUND https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/JHCOFFEEFUND https://cash.app/$JHCOFFEEFUND --------------------------------------------------------------------- SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS: https://www.tiktok.com/@deconstruction.zone https://www.youtube.com/@Deconstruction_Zone https://www.youtube.com/@DZDebates https://www.twitch.tv/deconstructionzone_ https://www.instagram.com/deconstruction_zone/ https://clapperapp.com/Justin_DZ https://x.com/Justin_DZ_ https://discord.com/invite/WmeAmrhkxZ https://linktr.ee/justin_____ Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/deconstruction-zone--6451535/support.

## Transcript

[0:58] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I had the microphone muted for or a second.
[1:01] Speaker 1: All right, we should be good to go. Now, let
[1:03] Speaker 1: me know if the stream is choppy. I've got it.
[1:05] Speaker 1: The stream open on my phone right now, and my
[1:09] Speaker 1: phone looks frozen. Uh yeah, and it's frozen. Yeah, I
[1:14] Speaker 1: think I think the I think YouTube's crashed right now. Friends,
[1:18] Speaker 1: TikTok is good to go. H but YouTube is completely
[1:22] Speaker 1: frozen unfortunately, So I think this this is probably what
[1:27] Speaker 1: we'll do. Then Em says justin Randon, that's what it was.
[1:36] Speaker 1: We might have to wait a while to get to
[1:38] Speaker 1: get the see if YouTube comes back up. I see
[1:42] Speaker 1: the YouTube's legging a little bit. It says, it's buffering.
[1:45] Speaker 1: We'll give We'll give it a second to catch up,
[1:47] Speaker 1: see if it works. If it if YouTube is just
[1:52] Speaker 1: zoked out for the night, we might just go oh YouTube. Yeah,
[1:56] Speaker 1: Ian had the same problem on his YouTube stream. Yeah,
[1:59] Speaker 1: we might just have to do TikTok only here. If
[2:02] Speaker 1: YouTube is going to crash out and not work, that
[2:06] Speaker 1: would be unfortunate for everyone watching. But you know, it
[2:09] Speaker 1: is what it is. If you're watching on YouTube, this
[2:12] Speaker 1: would be a great time to go over to TikTok.
[2:15] Speaker 1: If you have it and check out the TikTok stream.
[2:17] Speaker 1: We've had it the other way around where the TikTok
[2:20] Speaker 1: had to go run over to YouTube because TikTok was choppy.
[2:23] Speaker 1: But it is what it is. We'll give it a
[2:26] Speaker 1: second to catch up. Guys, let me know if it's
[2:31] Speaker 1: if it's lagging, or if it's if it's looking like
[2:34] Speaker 1: it's clean. I see some people saying that it's frozen,
[2:38] Speaker 1: some people saying that it's not. We'll give it a
[2:41] Speaker 1: give it a second to see if it if it
[2:43] Speaker 1: catches up. I don't have any guests waiting on TikTok
[2:50] Speaker 1: to get in. I've got one guest that looks like
[2:53] Speaker 1: on YouTube waiting to get in, but I don't want
[2:55] Speaker 1: to bring them in just yet. If this stream is
[2:57] Speaker 1: not working, but I'm looking at my phone right now
[3:00] Speaker 1: and it looks like it might work. It looks like
[3:03] Speaker 1: it's working right now. It's not lagging on my phone,
[3:06] Speaker 1: so I think we're good to go. We'll see what happens.
[3:09] Speaker 1: Hopefully YouTube doesn't crash out again. But I'm looking at
[3:13] Speaker 1: my phone's feed. My phone's on five G and it
[3:16] Speaker 1: looks like it's working. Okay, So and Aris agrees. Actually,
[3:20] Speaker 1: Aris says that YouTube seems to be fine now it
[3:22] Speaker 1: has a weird hang up. Actually, that's a weird kind
[3:26] Speaker 1: of glitch their YouTube. You think with as much money
[3:29] Speaker 1: as YouTube has, they wouldn't have these types of outages.
[3:32] Speaker 1: But I get it. Nobody's perfect. It could be anything,
[3:37] Speaker 1: could be anything. But I think we're back in business.
[3:39] Speaker 1: It looks like everything's working also, Glenn, welcome to the
[3:42] Speaker 1: Crack and Crew Elite, my friend. Thank you so much
[3:44] Speaker 1: for upgrading. You've got access to the cheat sheet now,
[3:46] Speaker 1: big W, BIGW. All right, you're right. Doug would never.
[3:51] Speaker 1: Doug would never. You know what, if YouTube back up?
[3:55] Speaker 1: I agree, this might be a miracle of Doug. It
[3:58] Speaker 1: could be a miracle of Doug. Actually, that's what I'm thinking.
[4:01] Speaker 1: Certainly seems to be the case. The proof that Doug
[4:05] Speaker 1: is good, that that Doug is God, is that we're
[4:09] Speaker 1: here right now talking on YouTube. That's the proof. What
[4:11] Speaker 1: more proof could you want? There's no other proof you
[4:14] Speaker 1: could need. All Right, Max is back with us. We're
[4:17] Speaker 1: gonna pick up where are we left off. How you doing? Max?
[4:22] Speaker 1: Hold on? We should be able to hear you now, yo, Well,
[4:27] Speaker 1: welcome back, Max. About that. Apparently YouTube's having some outages
[4:36] Speaker 1: and I'm hearing everybody else in the community that's streaming
[4:39] Speaker 1: all went down at the same time. So it must
[4:41] Speaker 1: be a YouTube situation.
[4:43] Speaker 2: Okay, it is what it is.
[4:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, I was wondering why TikTok wasn't lagging but YouTube was.
[4:51] Speaker 1: Apparently it's on YouTube's end. So Max, let's let's dig
[4:54] Speaker 1: into the conversation a little bit. I think we kind
[4:59] Speaker 1: of left off on why I'm not a Christian anymore, yes,
[5:03] Speaker 1: and the reason why I left. I think there were four.
[5:07] Speaker 2: I'm sorry not to cut you off. I just in
[5:09] Speaker 2: regards to why you started and how did that get lost?
[5:14] Speaker 2: That was not necessarily why you're not. I just wanted
[5:16] Speaker 2: to know, like what I don't want to use words
[5:18] Speaker 2: for you say your faith per se, but like, what
[5:21] Speaker 2: was it that you you know, that motivated you to
[5:24] Speaker 2: start that that eventually got lost.
[5:26] Speaker 1: Well, I think the thing that motivated me to start
[5:28] Speaker 1: was I thought, well, if God is real and the
[5:30] Speaker 1: Bible is true, it's like the most important thing there is.
[5:33] Speaker 1: And if that's the case, like if my identity is
[5:37] Speaker 1: found in Christ and so is everybody else, and that
[5:40] Speaker 1: God desires that none should perish. It seems to be
[5:43] Speaker 1: that the most important thing you could do is to
[5:45] Speaker 1: make sure that none would perish. Right, So I thought
[5:48] Speaker 1: ministry to me was it was just a logical conclusion
[5:52] Speaker 1: of what the Bible says.
[5:55] Speaker 2: You know, Okay, okay, cool, cool? Do you what are
[6:04] Speaker 2: your thoughts on sin?
[6:07] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, as an atheist, I don't think that
[6:09] Speaker 1: sin exists, right.
[6:13] Speaker 2: Are you asking? I'm I'm asking you.
[6:16] Speaker 1: I mean no, I mean as an atheist, not just me,
[6:19] Speaker 1: any atheists, we don't believe in the concept of a sin,
[6:22] Speaker 1: because a sin is like an offense committed against a God.
[6:27] Speaker 2: Okay, what about in the context or the law of
[6:31] Speaker 2: the Bible. What are your thoughts on sin in regards
[6:33] Speaker 2: to to that in the context of you know the law.
[6:37] Speaker 1: Well, kind of two sins in the in the Bible,
[6:39] Speaker 1: and both of them are roughly the same thing in
[6:42] Speaker 1: God's eyes. And there's the impurity, like physical impurity, and
[6:49] Speaker 1: then there's like moral impurity.
[6:53] Speaker 3: Right.
[6:53] Speaker 1: So, for example, if you come into contact with an
[6:56] Speaker 1: unclean body, well, you have to provide the this even
[7:00] Speaker 1: if it's accidental. Right, So, even if you accidentally come
[7:04] Speaker 1: into contact with an unclean body, you're now ritually impure,
[7:08] Speaker 1: and you have to provide the same sin offering as
[7:12] Speaker 1: somebody who went out and committed a sin. So in
[7:15] Speaker 1: the Bible, it's basically any offense against God, but it
[7:19] Speaker 1: also includes accidental offenses and things that would make you
[7:23] Speaker 1: just impure, like having coming into contact with nocturnal emissions.
[7:31] Speaker 2: Okay, that's how you would explain sin.
[7:33] Speaker 1: That's what the Bible says about it.
[7:36] Speaker 2: Okay. If Romans six twenty three, it says the way
[7:39] Speaker 2: the sin is death. From the context of what I
[7:43] Speaker 2: was taught about sin, that the first sin was obviously
[7:48] Speaker 2: in a gardener Eden when Eve bit the apple and
[7:53] Speaker 2: that created death, and that prior to that, humans were
[7:57] Speaker 2: designed not to die in that, like there's certain trees
[8:03] Speaker 2: that lived thousands of thousands of years, and that humans
[8:07] Speaker 2: were made from that same design that we came out
[8:10] Speaker 2: of the ground like trees. So, and then there's other
[8:13] Speaker 2: passages like in I believe the Psalm one they say
[8:16] Speaker 2: that like a man's life will be like a tree
[8:19] Speaker 2: if you look at I think Mark eight twenty five.
[8:23] Speaker 2: I believe it is where Jesus puts the mud on
[8:26] Speaker 2: the guy's eyes and then he opens his eyes. He says,
[8:29] Speaker 2: I see people looking like trees walking in that the
[8:34] Speaker 2: original way that humans were made, they were never designed
[8:38] Speaker 2: to die, they were supposed to be like trees, and
[8:40] Speaker 2: that it was sin that caused death initially. So in
[8:47] Speaker 2: that same context, the like, like a lot of people
[8:54] Speaker 2: get confused in regards to like when God flooded the
[8:59] Speaker 2: earth and he wiped out mankind. That can be confusing
[9:03] Speaker 2: to a lot of people who are not familiar with sin,
[9:07] Speaker 2: in that this is all in the I mean, I
[9:09] Speaker 2: understand you're atheist, you don't believe in any of this.
[9:11] Speaker 2: So I'm just explaining it in the context of the Bible.
[9:15] Speaker 2: And in the same way that somebody could watch a
[9:17] Speaker 2: Netflix movie with like a vampire or a zombie, and
[9:21] Speaker 2: you may see a vampire or the zombie might like
[9:24] Speaker 2: bite the girlfriend of the main Like the main character
[9:27] Speaker 2: has a girlfriend, right, and she gets bitten by this vampire,
[9:30] Speaker 2: and then she slowly starts turning into this vampire, right,
[9:34] Speaker 2: and then the boyfriend has to the main character has
[9:36] Speaker 2: to make a decision to kill his girlfriend right now.
[9:41] Speaker 2: In movie logic, you know, and if you're watching a
[9:43] Speaker 2: movie Netflix logic, you logically would not blame the boyfriend
[9:49] Speaker 2: for killing his girlfriend. You would blame the vampire that bitter.
[9:54] Speaker 2: But when it comes to the Bible, that same logic
[9:57] Speaker 2: is thrown out the window because you're not applying sin
[10:02] Speaker 2: to the concept of God not trying to kill humans.
[10:05] Speaker 2: He's trying to kill sin and that like you know,
[10:08] Speaker 2: like you've seen in certain vampire moies.
[10:10] Speaker 1: God have the ability to create humans without sin. I'm sorry,
[10:14] Speaker 1: does God have the ability to create humans without sin?
[10:18] Speaker 2: They were?
[10:19] Speaker 1: He did.
[10:19] Speaker 2: He did create humans without sin, create humans that want sin,
[10:23] Speaker 2: say I'm sorry, say it again, create humans.
[10:25] Speaker 1: That want sin?
[10:27] Speaker 2: Well, that's what Christ was.
[10:30] Speaker 1: But no, he was a god.
[10:32] Speaker 2: That's debatable.
[10:33] Speaker 1: God's can't sin, Okay.
[10:36] Speaker 2: I mean that. I mean some people debate whether or
[10:39] Speaker 2: not Christ was a god.
[10:40] Speaker 1: I mean, do you believe about him?
[10:43] Speaker 2: Well, I don't believe Christ was God in that so
[10:48] Speaker 2: they're like that, that's like the Trinity doctor, You got
[10:50] Speaker 2: the Trinity doctor? Like those people say that, you know,
[10:52] Speaker 2: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
[10:56] Speaker 1: Say, what, so the Bible is wrong?
[10:58] Speaker 2: Well, not, that's what the Bible is wrong, but the
[11:01] Speaker 2: way it gets interpreted sometimes by people is wrong. I
[11:04] Speaker 2: can give you an example.
[11:05] Speaker 1: It says that genus is God and John one one.
[11:09] Speaker 2: Well, no, it says that. That's I don't know if
[11:11] Speaker 2: you've done the research on that, but that's I have.
[11:14] Speaker 1: You probably believe it says a God, right, So I
[11:18] Speaker 1: say that again, you think that it says a God
[11:21] Speaker 1: rather than God.
[11:22] Speaker 2: Well, that's not what I think. That's what if you
[11:25] Speaker 2: look at the Greek I have, right, So people have gone.
[11:29] Speaker 2: People have been arguing about this for years, so like,
[11:30] Speaker 2: I don't.
[11:31] Speaker 1: I don't think I've been arguing about it for years.
[11:33] Speaker 1: They've only been arguing about it since the Jehovah witnesses
[11:36] Speaker 1: came up with their nonsensical doctrines. Well are the Mormons?
[11:40] Speaker 2: Sorry, well there's Jews that they'd interpret it the same
[11:45] Speaker 2: way as well, Like there are certain Jewish interpretations that
[11:47] Speaker 2: they say the same thing.
[11:48] Speaker 1: So I've never read a Jewish interpretation on that particular passage.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Well, the Greek lexicon even what was the one? What
[12:02] Speaker 2: was it?
[12:03] Speaker 1: Hey, I'll give you credit. That's a real Greek lexicon.
[12:07] Speaker 1: Most Christians can't.
[12:08] Speaker 2: Be right, I'm not even sure, right, I just it's
[12:10] Speaker 2: been so long since I can research. I think it
[12:11] Speaker 2: was fairs the one that I was researching man. You
[12:13] Speaker 2: kind of almost called your glu but uh it was
[12:17] Speaker 2: Thomas was wick Owick or I forget the I didn't
[12:22] Speaker 2: want to go down as rabbit hole because I wanted,
[12:24] Speaker 2: you know, just to stay on point about what When
[12:26] Speaker 2: you asked me about can God create humans that don't sin?
[12:31] Speaker 2: I was kind of curious about why you why you
[12:34] Speaker 2: asked that?
[12:36] Speaker 1: Fair enough? Okay, So could God create humans that don't sin?
[12:43] Speaker 2: I believe so. Yes. I'm not speaking on any authority here,
[12:48] Speaker 2: but I mean, in my personal opinion, I would say yes, Well.
[12:51] Speaker 1: It has to be the case because in Revelation twenty one,
[12:54] Speaker 1: when it gives you the vision of heaven, there's no
[12:57] Speaker 1: more sin or there's no more sorrow, no more death, right, Okay,
[13:02] Speaker 1: so he must have the capacity for it. Now, the
[13:05] Speaker 1: fact that he didn't do that, the fact that he
[13:07] Speaker 1: created the world with all the sin and the sorrow
[13:09] Speaker 1: and the suffering, means that that's obviously the world that
[13:12] Speaker 1: he preferred.
[13:13] Speaker 2: Well, that's not entirely so he didn't create the world
[13:15] Speaker 2: with sin and suffering that was introduced by Satan.
[13:19] Speaker 1: No, that's not true.
[13:22] Speaker 2: Well originally okay, So if you look at second I
[13:28] Speaker 2: think it's I don't know if it's first Peter three
[13:29] Speaker 2: eight or second Peter three eight. It says to God,
[13:35] Speaker 2: one thousand years is only one. There's only one day
[13:37] Speaker 2: to God, So like one thousand of our years, there's
[13:39] Speaker 2: only one day to God.
[13:41] Speaker 1: A day a day A day is like a thousand
[13:44] Speaker 1: years to God. Yeah, that's actually a quotation from one
[13:47] Speaker 1: of the Psalms that gets picked up by the New Testament.
[13:50] Speaker 1: But that's not meaningful. That doesn't actually fix the problem.
[13:52] Speaker 1: The reality is that let me finish, God knew. God
[13:56] Speaker 1: knew that humans would sin, right.
[13:59] Speaker 2: Well, so the way that I was taught that answer
[14:03] Speaker 2: was like, so, like I'm trying. So there's a new
[14:06] Speaker 2: movie out, the John Wacken movie.
[14:08] Speaker 1: Just a yes or no? Did God know that humans
[14:11] Speaker 1: would sin?
[14:13] Speaker 2: That's a yes. The answer is yes and no. Let
[14:15] Speaker 2: me just let me mind you this. I won't go
[14:16] Speaker 2: on a chance.
[14:17] Speaker 1: Do you believe that God is all knowing?
[14:19] Speaker 2: Yes, but that doesn't necessarily.
[14:22] Speaker 1: If he's all knowing, that means he knows the future.
[14:25] Speaker 2: Let me let me finish my point. Just because you
[14:27] Speaker 2: can look up spoilers of a movie doesn't necessarily mean
[14:29] Speaker 2: you're gonna go do it like if there's a movie
[14:30] Speaker 2: that you're gonna go see, you can go on Google
[14:33] Speaker 2: and look up the whole plot, but you're not gonna
[14:35] Speaker 2: do that because you still want to watch the drama
[14:37] Speaker 2: play out. This is how I was. I thought that
[14:40] Speaker 2: was a great point, Like when somebody planning this.
[14:42] Speaker 1: Terrible point doesn't adjust my question at all.
[14:46] Speaker 2: Just because you know, just because you have the ability
[14:48] Speaker 2: and know everything, that's necessarily mean you're gonna choose to
[14:50] Speaker 2: exercise it.
[14:50] Speaker 1: I didn't say God was choosing to exercise anything. I
[14:55] Speaker 1: think you're I think you're I think you're trying to
[14:56] Speaker 1: get ahead of my argument. I don't think it's a
[14:58] Speaker 1: good idea.
[14:59] Speaker 2: So I was making my point.
[15:00] Speaker 1: I'm not just does God know all things?
[15:03] Speaker 2: Yes?
[15:03] Speaker 1: Does he know what's going to happen in the future?
[15:07] Speaker 2: Yet I believe he has the ability to No, does he?
[15:10] Speaker 2: Because because we can make God rejoice like.
[15:13] Speaker 1: Max, does he know the future? Yes?
[15:15] Speaker 2: Or no? Yes he knows the future?
[15:18] Speaker 1: Okay. Did he know that humans would sin?
[15:21] Speaker 2: That's debatable.
[15:23] Speaker 1: It is not debatable because Jesus was slain before the
[15:25] Speaker 1: foundation of the earth Ephesians chapter one.
[15:31] Speaker 2: So according to the Bible, then how do humans have
[15:33] Speaker 2: the ability to make God rejoice or make God sad.
[15:35] Speaker 1: Like thank you, you finally found another contradiction in the Bible.
[15:39] Speaker 1: I'm glad you came to that realization. The idea that
[15:42] Speaker 1: an all knowing entity can also have emotions of surprise
[15:47] Speaker 1: is a wonderful contradiction in the book.
[15:49] Speaker 2: It's not a contradiction if you look at it from
[15:52] Speaker 2: the standpoint of how I've explained it to you, just.
[15:54] Speaker 1: You didn't explain it well. The word all means there's
[15:57] Speaker 1: no exceptions. If I said I own all the tools
[16:00] Speaker 1: in the world, that means there's not a single tool
[16:02] Speaker 1: that I don't own.
[16:04] Speaker 2: Okay. So, in the context of all knowing and he
[16:07] Speaker 2: has ability to do that, does he have the ability
[16:11] Speaker 2: to choose not to know?
[16:13] Speaker 1: Then he wouldn't be then he wouldn't be all knowing
[16:17] Speaker 1: if he If he but all knowing entities can't can't
[16:21] Speaker 1: forget things.
[16:22] Speaker 2: I did not necessarily forget. But can he choose not
[16:25] Speaker 2: to know?
[16:25] Speaker 1: No, because because then he's not, because he's not all knowing,
[16:30] Speaker 1: then he's all He's either all knowing or is not.
[16:36] Speaker 2: If God is all powerful, does he not have the
[16:38] Speaker 2: power to choose not to know. If he's all knowing,
[16:40] Speaker 2: does he not have the ability too?
[16:42] Speaker 1: Only if you're willing to get rid of the all
[16:44] Speaker 1: knowing moniker. He's either all knowing or is not. How
[16:46] Speaker 1: he got there is irrelevant.
[16:50] Speaker 2: I don't agree with I mean, I hear your point,
[16:52] Speaker 2: but I don't the way I was taught, I don't.
[16:54] Speaker 2: I don't necessarily agree.
[16:55] Speaker 1: We can agree to disagree on just definitionly true, you
[16:57] Speaker 1: either do know all things or you don't know all things.
[17:00] Speaker 1: If God doesn't know all things and he's not all knowing.
[17:07] Speaker 2: There's still a choice God. God has choice as well.
[17:10] Speaker 2: God to make the choice if he's all powerful.
[17:13] Speaker 1: I agree, God does make choices. So let's get back
[17:15] Speaker 1: to the actual framework of the argument. God knew that
[17:19] Speaker 1: humans would sin before he created them. We know that
[17:22] Speaker 1: to be the case because God says he declares the
[17:24] Speaker 1: end from the very beginning of Phesian Chapter one says
[17:27] Speaker 1: Jesus was slain and the elect were chosen before the
[17:29] Speaker 1: foundation of the earth. Revelation chapter seven reiterates that and
[17:33] Speaker 1: says that they were written in the Book of the
[17:35] Speaker 1: Lamb before the foundation of the earth as well. So
[17:39] Speaker 1: God knew before he created mankind that in fact they
[17:43] Speaker 1: would sin, and that Jesus would have to die.
[17:46] Speaker 2: Correct, Well, like you look at the pastor of job say, God.
[17:51] Speaker 1: Allows crazy that you can't say yes or no.
[17:54] Speaker 2: I didn't repeat your question. I was answering it in
[17:57] Speaker 2: the context of.
[17:57] Speaker 1: According to Ephesians chapter one Revelation chapter seven, that clearly
[18:02] Speaker 1: state that Jesus was killed before the foundation of the
[18:07] Speaker 1: world and the elect were already chosen before the foundation
[18:11] Speaker 1: of the world. Does that not imply that God knew
[18:14] Speaker 1: that they would sin?
[18:19] Speaker 2: It? Can It can imply it. It doesn't directly imply it,
[18:22] Speaker 2: but it can be. It can be applied.
[18:24] Speaker 1: So God killed Jesus before he knew anyone would ever sin.
[18:31] Speaker 1: That's some crazy. There's some crazy parenting. I've never heard
[18:35] Speaker 1: parenting that back asterord.
[18:39] Speaker 2: In in the in the like I said, if you
[18:42] Speaker 2: look at first Peter three A, it says that one
[18:44] Speaker 2: a thousand years is only one day.
[18:46] Speaker 1: That doesn't fix anything.
[18:48] Speaker 2: Let me finish can I can I finish my point?
[18:50] Speaker 1: I'm going to say the same thing after you say
[18:52] Speaker 1: whatever you're gonna say.
[18:53] Speaker 2: Okay, So in the from God's perspective, it's only been
[18:57] Speaker 2: about five days that have passed since the beginning, so
[19:01] Speaker 2: as according to the same teachings, he allowed Satan to
[19:05] Speaker 2: test the righteous and the unrighteous, and that there's a
[19:10] Speaker 2: new earth, and that revelation speaks of a new earth
[19:12] Speaker 2: that will be created where there will only be the righteous.
[19:15] Speaker 2: So in the same way that this live stream is
[19:18] Speaker 2: recording your live stream, that there's a there's a like
[19:24] Speaker 2: was it Malachi three sixteen.
[19:25] Speaker 1: This does not address the point I'm making, max if
[19:29] Speaker 1: I can finish, I'm not gonna let you finish, because
[19:31] Speaker 1: it doesn't. You're addressing how God's time period is longer
[19:36] Speaker 1: than i'm my time period or our time period. That
[19:39] Speaker 1: has nothing to do with we're talking. We're not talking
[19:41] Speaker 1: about whether or not God is super patient. We're talking
[19:44] Speaker 1: about whether or not he pre planned something because he
[19:47] Speaker 1: had fore knowledge of something. Whether or not the fore
[19:49] Speaker 1: knowledge was for a thousand years or for a million
[19:52] Speaker 1: years is irrelevant. Did God know before he created mankind
[19:57] Speaker 1: that they would sin? The only answer is yes, because
[20:00] Speaker 1: the Bible tells you that.
[20:05] Speaker 2: I'm explaining to you why that was done.
[20:07] Speaker 4: I don't I don't even I don't read.
[20:09] Speaker 1: I don't care, I don't care. Why quote me a
[20:11] Speaker 1: verse that shows I'm wrong, because I'm going to quote
[20:13] Speaker 1: you a verse that shows I'm right.
[20:15] Speaker 2: Okay. Malachi three sixteen is an example.
[20:18] Speaker 1: Is that Malachi three sixteen ain't going to help you,
[20:21] Speaker 1: but we'll read it.
[20:22] Speaker 2: Okay, there's a book of remembrance, and now that there's
[20:27] Speaker 2: it's like like if you get caught on tape during
[20:29] Speaker 2: a crime. It's on tape. So there God has a
[20:32] Speaker 2: like a it's from from the example of the Book
[20:35] Speaker 2: of remembers. This is all being recorded. So the people
[20:39] Speaker 2: who show sin over God's over God's law and commandments,
[20:48] Speaker 2: those people will not be resurrected to the new You
[20:51] Speaker 2: have the you.
[20:52] Speaker 1: Got the wrong verse. That's not a Malachi. Malachi is
[20:54] Speaker 1: about the day of the Lord.
[20:57] Speaker 2: What does Malachi three sixteen say?
[20:59] Speaker 1: Okay, I put it on the screen. Hold on. Although
[21:01] Speaker 1: you probably won't be able to see it, everyone else
[21:03] Speaker 1: will be able to see it, says Uh. Then those
[21:06] Speaker 1: who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord
[21:09] Speaker 1: took note and listened. A book of remembrance. Oh no,
[21:12] Speaker 1: you were. A book of remembrance was written before him.
[21:15] Speaker 1: Of those who revered the Lord and thought on his name,
[21:18] Speaker 1: they shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts my
[21:20] Speaker 1: special possession on the day when I act, Yeah, the
[21:23] Speaker 1: day of the Lord, when the day when he acts.
[21:26] Speaker 2: So there's there's going to be a new Earth and
[21:28] Speaker 2: a new Heaven.
[21:29] Speaker 1: We know that doesn't fix the problem we're talking about.
[21:33] Speaker 2: Yet in the in the context of Malachi three sixteen,
[21:36] Speaker 2: it's explaining to you that the people that the people
[21:39] Speaker 2: who chose sin, will not be remembered, but the people
[21:44] Speaker 2: that do, the people that do follow God's long command.
[21:48] Speaker 2: God is listening. It's like I said, it's he's recording it.
[21:50] Speaker 2: He's listening. So and in the context of your question,
[21:55] Speaker 2: did God, you know, create this world? Which I don't
[21:58] Speaker 2: agree with that, but but in the context of the
[22:00] Speaker 2: way you're answering it, I'm giving you a more insight
[22:06] Speaker 2: on why it appears that way. As far as it dares.
[22:09] Speaker 1: That verse didn't say anything that you needed to say
[22:13] Speaker 1: according to who according to logic. It didn't say anything
[22:17] Speaker 1: about God not pre planning anything. Ephesians Chapter one, verse four.
[22:22] Speaker 1: He chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world,
[22:28] Speaker 1: before the found before the foundation of the world, God
[22:32] Speaker 1: chose the elect He knew before he created mankind, who
[22:36] Speaker 1: the elect were.
[22:40] Speaker 2: Then can you explain what the Book of Remembrance is?
[22:43] Speaker 1: The Book of Remembrance are for the people that were
[22:45] Speaker 1: on the actual planet at the time of the Day
[22:47] Speaker 1: of the Lord. Malachi chapter three is about what God
[22:51] Speaker 1: is doing leading up to the day of the Lord,
[22:53] Speaker 1: and then in chapter four he finally sends the John
[22:57] Speaker 1: the Baptist just before the Day of the Lord to
[22:59] Speaker 1: turn the hearts of the fathers and the sons back
[23:02] Speaker 1: towards each other again, so on and so forth. This
[23:04] Speaker 1: has nothing to do with some esque catalogical nonsense. This
[23:08] Speaker 1: is just God saying He's the people that were faithful
[23:10] Speaker 1: to him during this time period will be written in
[23:13] Speaker 1: the Book of Remembrance, just like all the elect will
[23:15] Speaker 1: be written in the Book of Life.
[23:18] Speaker 2: Okay, so in the in the concept of saying what
[23:21] Speaker 2: we're talking about, go back to when we're talking about
[23:23] Speaker 2: sin and you were explaining how you know, if Max does.
[23:27] Speaker 1: I need you to focus?
[23:29] Speaker 2: Focused?
[23:30] Speaker 1: We read we read Ephesians one. What did Ephesians one say.
[23:36] Speaker 2: It's hard to uh make a point if you but
[23:39] Speaker 2: I need I need, I.
[23:40] Speaker 1: Need, I need you to focus and stop reading trying
[23:43] Speaker 1: to misdirect. In Ephesians one, did God know something before
[23:47] Speaker 1: it happened.
[23:51] Speaker 2: According to what you're saying.
[23:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, according to Ephesians, not what I'm saying.
[23:55] Speaker 1: According to Ephesians.
[23:58] Speaker 2: Hold on my second, let me get read what what?
[24:01] Speaker 3: What?
[24:01] Speaker 1: Uh? What scripture you play Phesians Chapter one, verse four.
[24:05] Speaker 2: Give me one second. Let me bring this up Ephesians
[24:10] Speaker 2: one four. Give me about fifteen seconds now, and can
[24:16] Speaker 2: you can you read it again and read and reiterate
[24:19] Speaker 2: your point as I'm bringing this up.
[24:20] Speaker 1: Yes, just as He chose us in Christ and before
[24:26] Speaker 1: the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless
[24:29] Speaker 1: before him in love, the elect in Christ were chosen
[24:34] Speaker 1: before the foundation of the world. That's before humans were created.
[24:38] Speaker 1: He knew who the elect were before he created them.
[24:45] Speaker 2: Give me a second, just it's okay. Can I read
[24:57] Speaker 2: something to.
[24:58] Speaker 1: You only if only if it's verse four it's.
[25:01] Speaker 2: In response, Yeah, it's it's it has to do it specifically?
[25:04] Speaker 2: What if he's if he's in verse four, is it?
[25:07] Speaker 1: Is it in Ephesians?
[25:10] Speaker 2: No, it's not a Bible quote. I'm not quoting from this, okay.
[25:13] Speaker 1: So what I'm going to need you to do is
[25:14] Speaker 1: address verse four. In verse four, What did what did
[25:17] Speaker 1: God do.
[25:20] Speaker 2: I'm sorry my phone. I mean in verse four, uh,
[25:24] Speaker 2: says hold on, he chose us to be in union
[25:26] Speaker 2: with him? Well, hold on, that's the wrong translation. Let
[25:30] Speaker 2: me bring up you're reading from the King James. No,
[25:32] Speaker 2: I would never Okay, Well that's cool. Then hold on,
[25:36] Speaker 2: let me go back, go back. Uh what what what
[25:42] Speaker 2: translation are you reading? I don't have that one on
[25:47] Speaker 2: but okay, this is a different translation. So forgive me upfront.
[25:51] Speaker 2: So as he chose us to be in union with
[25:53] Speaker 2: him before the founding of the world, that we should
[25:55] Speaker 2: be holy and unblemished before him in love.
[25:58] Speaker 1: Okay. When when he did this, when he chose the
[26:02] Speaker 1: people to be in unity with him?
[26:04] Speaker 2: When did he do it at the found founding of
[26:06] Speaker 2: the world?
[26:07] Speaker 1: Okay? Did they already exist? Did you already exist?
[26:13] Speaker 2: Exist? What do you mean by exist?
[26:15] Speaker 1: In you exist before God created the world?
[26:22] Speaker 2: Before God created world?
[26:23] Speaker 1: Okay? So are you part of the elect in unity
[26:26] Speaker 1: with Christ.
[26:30] Speaker 2: In the context of this verse, In the context of
[26:33] Speaker 2: this verse.
[26:34] Speaker 1: No, So you're not part of the Christian people.
[26:39] Speaker 2: I am a Christian?
[26:40] Speaker 1: Yes, Okay? Are you part of the elect?
[26:45] Speaker 2: It depends on who you ask.
[26:48] Speaker 1: Okay, I'll make it easy for you. Paul is writing
[26:50] Speaker 1: to the elect He's writing to the Christians, and he's saying, you,
[26:55] Speaker 1: guys that are Christians, that are part of the elect
[26:58] Speaker 1: You were chosen before the foundation of the world, which
[27:03] Speaker 1: means God knew ahead of time who was going to
[27:06] Speaker 1: be with them, who wasn't going to be with them,
[27:08] Speaker 1: which means he had to have known who was going
[27:11] Speaker 1: to sin as well.
[27:12] Speaker 2: That's called predestination. But that doesn't necessary.
[27:15] Speaker 1: I literally didn't say it was predestination. Alls I'm determining
[27:20] Speaker 1: right now is if God knows humans are going to sin,
[27:25] Speaker 1: and it seems to be according to the book, Yeah,
[27:28] Speaker 1: he does know.
[27:28] Speaker 2: That it's right. So just because you're not saying predestination
[27:32] Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're accurately.
[27:33] Speaker 1: I never said he's causing them to sin. I said
[27:38] Speaker 1: he knows they're going to sin. Try to you keep
[27:42] Speaker 1: trying to argue things that I'm not talking about. I'm
[27:44] Speaker 1: not talking about predestination. That's a whole separate document. Alls.
[27:48] Speaker 1: I'm determining is what God knows so far, God knows
[27:53] Speaker 1: that humans are going to sin, correct. I don't agree
[27:59] Speaker 1: with it, But how could he not How could he
[28:02] Speaker 1: not know that humans are going to sin when he
[28:04] Speaker 1: already knows who the elect.
[28:06] Speaker 2: Are, because because you're tipping into the waters a predestination.
[28:11] Speaker 1: No, bullshit, I'm not talking about predestination. I'm talking about
[28:14] Speaker 1: what he knows. How can he how?
[28:17] Speaker 2: Max?
[28:17] Speaker 1: Max, No, No, No, you're not You're not asking a question.
[28:20] Speaker 1: Do you answer my question? How does he know who
[28:23] Speaker 1: the elect are but he doesn't know if they're going
[28:26] Speaker 1: to sin?
[28:28] Speaker 2: How does he know who the elect are if he
[28:31] Speaker 2: doesn't know who's going to sin? Yeah, I'm not gonna
[28:39] Speaker 2: be able to answer the question in a way that
[28:41] Speaker 2: you're not.
[28:41] Speaker 1: Going to say yeah, because it because it defeats your
[28:43] Speaker 1: your bad worldview that God doesn't know things.
[28:47] Speaker 2: I didn't say, God doesn't know things.
[28:49] Speaker 1: You're telling me. You're running away from the idea that
[28:52] Speaker 1: God knew humans would sin before he created them. That
[28:56] Speaker 1: that's this whole charade, the whole thing you've been doing
[28:58] Speaker 1: this whole time is running away from the obvious question
[29:01] Speaker 1: and answer about whether or not God knew Adam and
[29:04] Speaker 1: even the rest of the human race were going to sin. Obviously,
[29:07] Speaker 1: he did know that that was going to happen, because
[29:10] Speaker 1: he knew he was going to sacrifice Jesus and he
[29:12] Speaker 1: knew they were going to be elect Those things wouldn't
[29:15] Speaker 1: have happened before the foundation of the world if God
[29:17] Speaker 1: didn't know humans were going to sin.
[29:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, out of context.
[29:27] Speaker 1: No, you're you're out of logic. I don't think you're
[29:30] Speaker 1: mentally prepared for this conversation. If you can't understand the
[29:34] Speaker 1: contradiction that you've put yourself in, you're not equipped for
[29:37] Speaker 1: this hike. You need to go back, get bigger boots.
[29:41] Speaker 2: You need to go back if I want to make
[29:43] Speaker 2: a point. If I go to make a point and you.
[29:45] Speaker 1: Need to go back, get better boots. Maybe get a
[29:48] Speaker 1: hiking stick. Come on back when you understand how words work.
[29:52] Speaker 1: I'm going to move on to an adult. Okay, crazy, crazy,
[29:58] Speaker 1: he can't see that. Unbelievable. All right, let me grab
[30:01] Speaker 1: a couple of super chests. We'll get our next guest
[30:03] Speaker 1: in here. Debbie. Good to see a friend, Great to
[30:06] Speaker 1: see you. Thank you for the twenty dollars superchi It
[30:07] Speaker 1: says Justin Cook's like the Beastie Boys song Intergalactic. I
[30:11] Speaker 1: love the b Boys. I love the beast Boys except
[30:15] Speaker 1: for others. A couple of songs that that need maybe
[30:18] Speaker 1: could be removed from the catalog. All mentions of the
[30:22] Speaker 1: Spanish Fly probably needs removed, like brass Monkey. Maybe I
[30:29] Speaker 1: don't know, we leave Boob and Granny in there, Okay,
[30:32] Speaker 1: justin Cook's like Beastie Boys song Intergalactic. If you try
[30:34] Speaker 1: to knock me, you'll get mocked alistir by you in
[30:37] Speaker 1: my walk. Your knees will start shaking and your fingers
[30:41] Speaker 1: pop like a pinch in the neck of mistress. Fock. Unbelievable.
[30:45] Speaker 1: I love that song, by the way. That's a that's
[30:47] Speaker 1: a great song. Definitely gets the body moving.
[30:50] Speaker 2: Huh.
[30:51] Speaker 1: And I remember that one and you get that one? No,
[30:53] Speaker 1: all right, whatever, I do what I can. Cheap snack.
[30:56] Speaker 1: Thank you for the six one six W Nero says
[30:59] Speaker 1: deconstruction can be hard, but the reward in the end
[31:02] Speaker 1: is becoming rock hard for Doug. Grab a tectonic plate
[31:06] Speaker 1: and join the feast.
[31:08] Speaker 5: Big W.
[31:09] Speaker 1: Actually, big W. The only thing harder than deconstruction is
[31:16] Speaker 1: Doug being rock hard for you, because he's the rock
[31:19] Speaker 1: solid truth and breezy. Thank you for the Superjest says,
[31:22] Speaker 1: I think Guest is allergic to answering a direct question
[31:25] Speaker 1: or staying on task. Yeah, he was definitely that kid
[31:28] Speaker 1: in grade school that every time is a teacher asked
[31:32] Speaker 1: him a question, he fired back with five other questions
[31:35] Speaker 1: rather than answering it because he knew he didn't have
[31:37] Speaker 1: an answer for it. I read the book. Did you
[31:41] Speaker 1: read the book?
[31:42] Speaker 5: Yeah?
[31:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the teacher read the book. Oh sorry,
[31:46] Speaker 1: So anyways, John Wick, I'm gonna hurt some feelings. I've
[31:51] Speaker 1: never actually seen John Wick, so I don't know how
[31:55] Speaker 1: I can respond to that, But thank you anyways, and
[31:57] Speaker 1: space Lord, thank you for the five dotar supertest says
[31:59] Speaker 1: one thousand years equals one day, and vice versa implies
[32:02] Speaker 1: that math doesn't work. Not a point in your favor.
[32:05] Speaker 1: Logic rules applied to math some foundation God is huh.
[32:09] Speaker 1: So this is actually the funny point because the way
[32:11] Speaker 1: that the Bible phrases it is okay, right. The Bible
[32:14] Speaker 1: says that one day is like a thousand years to God,
[32:18] Speaker 1: meaning God's timeless, right. But the way Christians always want
[32:21] Speaker 1: to use it is that one day is a thousand years,
[32:24] Speaker 1: which is just breaking the laws of logic. One day
[32:28] Speaker 1: is just not a thousand years and not the same thing.
[32:32] Speaker 1: And design. Thank you for the five dollars supertest says
[32:34] Speaker 1: he's all knowing, but he chooses not to know. I'm
[32:36] Speaker 1: starting to think Christians are in the are in on
[32:39] Speaker 1: the gon. It's crazy to me that in order to
[32:44] Speaker 1: answer some of the difficult questions you have to invent
[32:48] Speaker 1: crazy ideas that God's not all knowing and he chose
[32:51] Speaker 1: to forget it's But listen, I get it. When you're
[32:54] Speaker 1: in the cult, you'll do anything to stay in the cult,
[32:58] Speaker 1: even take like super ridiculous takes like that. Daddy read
[33:03] Speaker 1: thank you for the nineteen ninety nine my friend, He says,
[33:05] Speaker 1: ex Mormon and ex Mega. Ooh, that's a lot to
[33:08] Speaker 1: deconstruct from, but they go hand in hand. Is educational resource.
[33:11] Speaker 1: Like your channel got me out of those cults. So
[33:14] Speaker 1: it's awesome you're going full time. Thank you, Daddy, And
[33:17] Speaker 1: that was my hope. A lot of people ask me
[33:19] Speaker 1: why I don't do more political stuff, and I am
[33:22] Speaker 1: pretty passionate about politics, but I think the worst parts
[33:25] Speaker 1: of politics are from religion. That's where the worst shit's
[33:30] Speaker 1: coming from. So I think we kill two birds with
[33:32] Speaker 1: one stone when we get rid of these toxic religions.
[33:35] Speaker 1: But Daddy, thank you so much for being here. Thank
[33:37] Speaker 1: you for supporting the channel. I really appreciate it, friend,
[33:40] Speaker 1: and retired bomb tech back with us, thank you so
[33:42] Speaker 1: much for the supertest says, do you think that Christianity
[33:45] Speaker 1: copied some Norse mythology when Odin hung from a tree
[33:49] Speaker 1: pierced with a spirit or self sacrifice for knowledge? So
[33:52] Speaker 1: I don't think so. And here's why. My understanding of
[33:55] Speaker 1: Norse mythology is that almost all the texts that we
[33:59] Speaker 1: have come hundreds of years after Jesus, right. I think
[34:02] Speaker 1: it's much more likely that Norse mythology was already playing
[34:07] Speaker 1: on Christian themes then the other way around, only because
[34:11] Speaker 1: of the textual evidence that we have. That's just my opinion.
[34:15] Speaker 1: If we find later that the Norse mythology is actually
[34:18] Speaker 1: much much older, and we have older texts to support this,
[34:21] Speaker 1: then I would say, I don't know. Maybe there's some
[34:23] Speaker 1: common ideas here, But the problem is these ideas in
[34:27] Speaker 1: Norse mythology they exist elsewhere too, so it's hard to
[34:31] Speaker 1: know where they came from. They seem to be just
[34:34] Speaker 1: like well played out common ideas that a lot of
[34:36] Speaker 1: people hung on to, and so I can see why
[34:39] Speaker 1: it shows up here, shows up there, shows up there.
[34:41] Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It was all over Greco
[34:43] Speaker 1: Roman religion, Maximilian, my friend, thank you so much for
[34:46] Speaker 1: the forty nine ninety nine. Thank you so so much,
[34:49] Speaker 1: my friend. Great to see you, says I missed a
[34:51] Speaker 1: few live streams and damn missed your birthday. No worries,
[34:54] Speaker 1: No worries, it says late. Congrats you're going full time. Yeah, baby, Hey,
[35:01] Speaker 1: thanks for being here. You're one of the reasons I
[35:03] Speaker 1: can go full time, my friend for supporting the stream.
[35:05] Speaker 1: I prefer the DZ Debates landscape layout, but the Cracking
[35:08] Speaker 1: membership is different from the Deconstruction Zone, so it's actually
[35:12] Speaker 1: not the only thing I change is, and I'm gonna
[35:14] Speaker 1: do it on the main account. I've got two Cracking memberships.
[35:17] Speaker 1: Cracking Regular basically just gets you emojis and member only
[35:20] Speaker 1: live streams if I do one, and then the second level,
[35:24] Speaker 1: Cracking Elite, gets you the cheat sheet plus emojis. I
[35:26] Speaker 1: didn't do that in the second channel. The reason is
[35:29] Speaker 1: I get so many emails from people who joined the
[35:31] Speaker 1: Crack and Crew Regular but not the Elite, and they're like,
[35:34] Speaker 1: I don't know how to get the cheat sheet and
[35:35] Speaker 1: turned out because they never got the link because they
[35:37] Speaker 1: didn't sign up at the right place. You can also
[35:39] Speaker 1: bypass all of that by signing up on Patreon. I
[35:42] Speaker 1: finally got Patreon set up. That's got the Deconstruction cheat sheet.
[35:46] Speaker 1: That being said, on my main channel, I'm gonna delete
[35:48] Speaker 1: I think my bottom level. Almost nobody's in it anyways,
[35:52] Speaker 1: because everybody wants to cheat sheet, and I'm just gonna
[35:55] Speaker 1: make the second level the only level, So hopefully that
[35:57] Speaker 1: fixes the membership. But memberships are both open on both channels,
[36:02] Speaker 1: so I hope that helps. And I love the horizontal
[36:05] Speaker 1: The horizontal stream is now getting more reviews than the
[36:08] Speaker 1: vertical stream, so it's crazy, but I think there are
[36:12] Speaker 1: people who have their their favorites, you know. But anyways, Bertram,
[36:16] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the Galaxy on TikTok. I
[36:18] Speaker 1: appreciate that my friend and JJ just sent out a
[36:21] Speaker 1: DZ membership. Big w for gifting out memberships, and also
[36:25] Speaker 1: thank you for the six ninety nine super Thanks Randy
[36:28] Speaker 1: a big W for that and Jason's back with us.
[36:31] Speaker 1: Thank you Jason for the five hour Superjests. Membership's coming
[36:34] Speaker 1: stick around in the spirit of Pride Month, I hope
[36:37] Speaker 1: someone brings up Sodom Gomora, me self, impost Fire, Pedzel Discord. Yeah,
[36:44] Speaker 1: definitely joined the discord. Jason. I'd love to see it
[36:47] Speaker 1: in there, and I meant to do it. I would
[36:52] Speaker 1: love to do the why is it wrong? Debate again
[36:57] Speaker 1: because that's such a fun debate to have because Christian's
[36:59] Speaker 1: clearly don't have good reasons for it, and even non Christians. Cameron,
[37:04] Speaker 1: thank you for the ten hour super just since first
[37:06] Speaker 1: ever super Chat just joined on Patreon. Cameron, thank you
[37:10] Speaker 1: so much for joining the crew and for super Chat,
[37:12] Speaker 1: says all Prais is a Doug happy you can cook
[37:15] Speaker 1: full time, so dinner's ready when I get home. I'm
[37:17] Speaker 1: working on slow ROAs and a friend on dispensationalism, any
[37:21] Speaker 1: thoughts well, dispensationalism I think falls apart hard. I haven't
[37:28] Speaker 1: talked about dispensationalism enough. But the problem with dispensationalism is
[37:34] Speaker 1: it only works if you don't read the Old Testament.
[37:37] Speaker 1: It's clearly built on New Testament ideas, based on like, well,
[37:41] Speaker 1: this time period God gave the law to govern and
[37:44] Speaker 1: now we're in a different time period. But as soon
[37:46] Speaker 1: as you read the Old Testament, it's very clear that
[37:48] Speaker 1: the law was forever, it was eternal. It was meant
[37:51] Speaker 1: to be followed until the end of days. So this
[37:54] Speaker 1: idea that we're in a different dispensation now we're in
[37:57] Speaker 1: the dispensation of grace is just bullshit. It doesn't match
[37:59] Speaker 1: the old time anyways. Uh, solar, good to see a solar,
[38:04] Speaker 1: he says. Christian Pow would just be like, if you
[38:06] Speaker 1: can dodge a ball, you can dodge a question. That's
[38:09] Speaker 1: a million percent. We finally got a dodgeball emoji though,
[38:12] Speaker 1: for everyone who's subbed, we got dodgeball emojis. And Mike says, hello,
[38:16] Speaker 1: justin big fan of your content. I don't know if
[38:18] Speaker 1: you give shout outs, but can you give a shout
[38:21] Speaker 1: out to my friend el Hefe Corona five oh three.
[38:24] Speaker 1: Also praise Doug. Listen is it el yefe l Yfa
[38:29] Speaker 1: Corona five oh three? Doug loves you be rock hard
[38:33] Speaker 1: for Doug. He is a solid foundation. You can put
[38:36] Speaker 1: your foot on. Bigg big big w friend, if you're
[38:39] Speaker 1: a friend of the channel. Great to hear Frema and
[38:41] Speaker 1: still attacks a bit, says King Solomon had some sweet
[38:43] Speaker 1: pickup lines and songs. Solomon four or five. Listen, he
[38:46] Speaker 1: really did when he when he says that your neck
[38:51] Speaker 1: is like the flanks of a horse. Who who wouldn't
[38:54] Speaker 1: just melt hearing that your neck is like the flanks
[38:57] Speaker 1: of the horse, or that your breasts are like twin
[38:59] Speaker 1: fall of a gazelle, or that your cheeks are like pomegranates.
[39:04] Speaker 1: Who wouldn't fall for these lines? Who wouldn't fall for
[39:08] Speaker 1: your hair is like a flock of goats descending from
[39:11] Speaker 1: Mount Gilead. Listen. I can neither confirm or deny how
[39:15] Speaker 1: many lines in the Song of Solomon I've used in
[39:18] Speaker 1: my life as a pickup line. Alls I can tell
[39:20] Speaker 1: you is I know all of them. Anyways, a good reference.
[39:24] Speaker 1: And Randy, thank you for sending out five Deconstruction Zone memberships.
[39:28] Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. My friend and retired bomb tech
[39:32] Speaker 1: thank you so so much for the twenty dollars super chat,
[39:34] Speaker 1: he says, my apologies, happy belated birthday. Here is some
[39:38] Speaker 1: for you and your boy for another day of fun. Well,
[39:40] Speaker 1: thank you so much. We're definitely gonna get some ice cream.
[39:42] Speaker 1: I finally, I finally turned him on to trying some
[39:47] Speaker 1: vanilla ice cream from Dairy Queen. It's small steps. I've
[39:51] Speaker 1: got a six year old. He's very, very picky, and
[39:54] Speaker 1: he's also autistic, so I can't explain to him why
[39:56] Speaker 1: something's good and he should try it. You just have
[39:58] Speaker 1: to like sneak it in his mouth when he when
[40:01] Speaker 1: he's not looking, and then he's like, oh, that's pretty good. Uh.
[40:04] Speaker 1: That that being said. That being said, I did finally
[40:09] Speaker 1: get him turned on to some ice cream finally that
[40:11] Speaker 1: it's super hot outside. Hopefully we can have lots of
[40:13] Speaker 1: ice cream this summer, and Solar says, ah, I'm a
[40:16] Speaker 1: lady justin not a he. Oh, Solar, I'm so so sorry.
[40:20] Speaker 1: I couldn't tell by the picture. I just assumed the
[40:22] Speaker 1: picture was an avatar for you, and it looked it
[40:25] Speaker 1: looked masculine. I apologize, Solar, I did not mean to
[40:28] Speaker 1: misgender you. Please take my deepest apologies as my bad.
[40:32] Speaker 1: I didn't mean to do that anyways. Let me grab
[40:34] Speaker 1: our next guest uh. I don't know if it was Gothic,
[40:39] Speaker 1: but I think Gothic and militant ortho. We're up in
[40:42] Speaker 1: here next. And then I had a Darwin I believe
[40:45] Speaker 1: was in the guest box after that, so let me
[40:48] Speaker 1: grab Gothic. I don't think I've actually spoken with Gothic before.
[40:52] Speaker 1: How are you doing Gothic?
[40:54] Speaker 6: I'm great? What about you?
[40:56] Speaker 2: Oh?
[40:56] Speaker 1: So at least you fit the mold. I'm great Gothic.
[40:59] Speaker 1: Let me let me let me test out a question
[41:01] Speaker 1: on you that I think some opinions have been had.
[41:04] Speaker 1: Why do all phil bros talk in that low monotone
[41:08] Speaker 1: voice like they're about to fall asleep.
[41:11] Speaker 6: Because we're probably in bed all the time.
[41:15] Speaker 1: Sounds about right? Fair enough? Okay, So are you at
[41:18] Speaker 1: least eighteen? And are you believer?
[41:20] Speaker 6: I'm twenty and I'm a Orthodox Christian?
[41:23] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're cringe author brokel. So what would be
[41:26] Speaker 1: the most convincing evidence or argument for your God being real?
[41:30] Speaker 2: Right?
[41:30] Speaker 7: So I have to clarifying questions before I present an argument.
[41:34] Speaker 7: One would be you're making a claim saying God isn't
[41:36] Speaker 7: or my God specifically he's imaginary, So I would say,
[41:39] Speaker 7: what's the argument for that? And on second, I would
[41:41] Speaker 7: say what's your basis for epistemic claims?
[41:45] Speaker 1: What I'm gonna do is not let your burden shift
[41:47] Speaker 1: and redirect you back to the No, it's not it's
[41:51] Speaker 1: a burden shift.
[41:52] Speaker 7: So to clarify your position, like so I could give
[41:54] Speaker 7: my best, No.
[41:55] Speaker 1: It's a burden shift. So what I'm gonna do is
[41:57] Speaker 1: go back to where we started from, which is my
[41:59] Speaker 1: claim is that your God is imaginary and you can't
[42:02] Speaker 1: demonstrate otherwise. So the I don't know if you know
[42:06] Speaker 1: how this live stream works, but the way this live
[42:08] Speaker 1: stream works is we talk about specific deities. Unless you're
[42:12] Speaker 1: a deist. We can talk about a generic deist god
[42:15] Speaker 1: if you really want to. And I'm here ascertaining whether
[42:18] Speaker 1: or not people have good reasons or good arguments to
[42:22] Speaker 1: believe in those particular gods. And my position is that
[42:26] Speaker 1: I don't think any believer can demonstrate that their God
[42:29] Speaker 1: exists outside of their actual imagination. And just so you know,
[42:35] Speaker 1: I've talked to a lot of phil bros. I know
[42:37] Speaker 1: all of your stupid tactics and your arguments. So if
[42:39] Speaker 1: you think you're just going to burden shift and be
[42:41] Speaker 1: in prick, I'll kick you now and move on to
[42:43] Speaker 1: the next guest.
[42:44] Speaker 7: Right, So if you're running, that's fine, But like, what
[42:46] Speaker 7: would be the argument for the God being imaginatd.
[42:49] Speaker 1: I'm wady actually for your argument that he's not. I mean,
[42:53] Speaker 1: you're making the claim though, no I'm waiting for your
[42:55] Speaker 1: argument that he's not. You know you won't, but I
[42:59] Speaker 1: want to. No you won't. No, no, you won't.
[43:02] Speaker 6: I mean if you're running, that's fine.
[43:04] Speaker 1: I'm not running. You're a liar. I've talked to one
[43:05] Speaker 1: hundred fili bros. You're just like all the ones that
[43:07] Speaker 1: came before you. You'll never do You'll never defend your religion.
[43:11] Speaker 1: You'll never defend your argument for God. Then then provide
[43:17] Speaker 1: the then provide the argument that your God exists. No,
[43:22] Speaker 1: you're a coward. You got your tail, You got your
[43:25] Speaker 1: tail between your legs.
[43:27] Speaker 6: I asked the clear.
[43:28] Speaker 1: Okay, so he doesn't actually have an argument. Typical pre
[43:31] Speaker 1: supper burden shift. Never defend your religion. Run away like
[43:36] Speaker 1: a fucking coward. Get out of here. We got actual
[43:38] Speaker 1: adults in the box waiting to get in. Could you
[43:41] Speaker 1: imagine when I was a Christian, I loved literally nothing
[43:45] Speaker 1: more than tell people why I thought my God was
[43:47] Speaker 1: real and that everyone else should believe in my God.
[43:50] Speaker 1: Could you imagine going around thinking you can prove your
[43:52] Speaker 1: God real by just avoiding the question altogether? Crazy? Also,
[43:58] Speaker 1: I got lots of argument against the Christian God, and
[44:01] Speaker 1: he didn't have a chance to get there because he's
[44:02] Speaker 1: an idiot. Adrian, Welcome in. I think I was supposed
[44:07] Speaker 1: to get Darwin next. I apologize, Darwin. I'll get you next, buddy, Adrian.
[44:10] Speaker 1: Welcome Adrian, Adrian, I think something wrong with your connection. Friend.
[44:20] Speaker 1: All right, come on back, Adrian, if you're if you're
[44:22] Speaker 1: actually with us? Okay, Hey Darwin, Hello Darwin. Are you
[44:32] Speaker 1: at least eighteen and are you a believer?
[44:36] Speaker 5: I am at least eighteen and I'm not a believer.
[44:42] Speaker 1: Oh okay, did you have a question?
[44:47] Speaker 8: Yeah, so I heard one of the arguments that you presented.
[44:53] Speaker 8: I can't remember who it was too, but it went
[44:57] Speaker 8: something like.
[44:59] Speaker 5: All acts of creat.
[45:02] Speaker 9: Have uh are are a change of state, and all
[45:07] Speaker 9: changes of state have before and after.
[45:09] Speaker 5: Therefore time was not created.
[45:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a typical argument against the creation of time,
[45:15] Speaker 1: although it does imply a particular idea of what time is.
[45:20] Speaker 1: If you talk to a physicist. If you talk to
[45:23] Speaker 1: a physicist, you can get actually a pretty different answer
[45:26] Speaker 1: of what time is. I only use this argument against
[45:29] Speaker 1: phil bros because phil bros believe that time is an
[45:31] Speaker 1: actual thing that exists rather than a property of matter.
[45:39] Speaker 1: But you're you're you're breaking up really hard. You sound
[45:43] Speaker 1: like a robot right now. Okay, all right, something's wrong
[45:50] Speaker 1: with your equipment. Man, you got to fix your equipment. Okay, crazy?
[45:54] Speaker 1: Oh well, uh j G. Thank you for the superchet
[45:58] Speaker 1: friends I see claims le Vigus eight twenty two was
[46:01] Speaker 1: revived in the twentieth chapter. Yeah, and was originally about men.
[46:05] Speaker 1: That's not true laying with boys, don't think the Hebrew
[46:08] Speaker 1: says this. Can't figure out where it came from. The
[46:11] Speaker 1: reason why it says that is because it says, you know,
[46:15] Speaker 1: a man shall not lie with a male as with
[46:19] Speaker 1: a woman. They're like, well, a man and a male
[46:21] Speaker 1: are different words. Maybe one is a buoy and one's
[46:23] Speaker 1: an adult. But that's not true. That's not how that
[46:25] Speaker 1: works at all. The Hebrew text is just using a
[46:28] Speaker 1: generic word for male and another generic word for male,
[46:32] Speaker 1: or one for a man and one for anything that's
[46:34] Speaker 1: a male. So as a career in the text just
[46:40] Speaker 1: means any male. In fact, it even says that about
[46:42] Speaker 1: the like the animals that you sacrifice, it has to
[46:45] Speaker 1: be a male using the same word. It just it's
[46:49] Speaker 1: a bad argument. JG. I actually don't know exactly where
[46:52] Speaker 1: it originated from I've heard it before, I've never heard
[46:55] Speaker 1: it from an actual scholar. This is something that like
[46:57] Speaker 1: dummies with the strongest concord and slashed onto and they
[47:01] Speaker 1: have no idea what they're talking about. Just take them
[47:04] Speaker 1: back to the like an actual lexicon of the Hebrew
[47:06] Speaker 1: language like the BDB, show them in the lexicon what
[47:09] Speaker 1: the words mean, and argument basically over. It's just chatter.
[47:14] Speaker 1: Cameron says, super chatting is fun. How can we support
[47:16] Speaker 1: you again? Well, super chatting is one way. The other
[47:19] Speaker 1: is signing up on the Patreon or becoming a member
[47:22] Speaker 1: of the channel, clicking the join button. That's a huge
[47:25] Speaker 1: way to support the channel. I would greatly appreciate it.
[47:27] Speaker 1: But just liking and sharing the streams and the videos
[47:30] Speaker 1: helps a lot too. And Randy says Norse mythology was
[47:33] Speaker 1: preserved by Christians some two hundred years after Pagan religion
[47:36] Speaker 1: was outlawed. You're not entirely wrong. Actually, it seems that
[47:42] Speaker 1: the Pagan religion, while it existed prior to Christianity, we
[47:47] Speaker 1: don't like to Christianity getting there. At least we don't
[47:50] Speaker 1: know how long it was there and what form it took,
[47:52] Speaker 1: or what texts they had or what stories they had,
[47:55] Speaker 1: because we don't have the text. And Josh says, cowardice
[47:58] Speaker 1: is a Christian value.
[47:59] Speaker 5: It really is.
[48:00] Speaker 1: If you're a pre supper, But what are you gonna do?
[48:03] Speaker 1: Dys Alexia says, thank you for dumping the philbro. I
[48:06] Speaker 1: just tune out when I hear them. Not only are
[48:08] Speaker 1: they boring, they don't have any new arguments, and they
[48:10] Speaker 1: waste everyone's time because all they do is burden shift.
[48:13] Speaker 1: Rather than give an argument, they won't give an argument.
[48:16] Speaker 1: All they do is burden shift. Also, Saint says, philbro
[48:19] Speaker 1: sound like they're in bed every time they call in
[48:21] Speaker 1: because they're jobless. Actually, you're right. I'm so. I've met
[48:25] Speaker 1: two people with PhDs in philosophy. Well, one getting his PhD,
[48:29] Speaker 1: one already had it. One of them wasn't working in
[48:31] Speaker 1: the field. He was a programmer. He learned programming after
[48:34] Speaker 1: he graduating because he's like, oh shit, I can't get
[48:36] Speaker 1: a job. Another was waiting tables. I asked him he
[48:39] Speaker 1: was finishing his PhD, and asked him what his PhD
[48:43] Speaker 1: was in and he goes, it's in philosophy. He's like,
[48:46] Speaker 1: so I'll be waiting tables after I graduate too. It's like, well,
[48:49] Speaker 1: least you know skeptics, thank you so much for the
[48:53] Speaker 1: superjest says King Solomon was definitely friend zoned. Maybe maybe listen,
[49:00] Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff happened with King Solomon, Like
[49:02] Speaker 1: women were coming from like Ethiopia. The Queen of Sheba
[49:05] Speaker 1: was like traveling long distance to get to him and
[49:08] Speaker 1: him and says Max was probably influenced by Jehovah witnesses. Actually,
[49:11] Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think the Jews or the
[49:13] Speaker 1: Mormons got to him because he wasn't trusting the standard
[49:17] Speaker 1: Greek translation of John one to one. I'm with you there,
[49:19] Speaker 1: and Sola says, I forgive you justin my PFB is
[49:22] Speaker 1: a character from a game. I like, he is a guy,
[49:24] Speaker 1: so I get it. Sorry, Solar, but now I know,
[49:28] Speaker 1: so I'll try to lock that into the memory, you know.
[49:31] Speaker 1: And Tessa, is Doug responsible for meteor strikes? You know what,
[49:36] Speaker 1: I'll pray to Doug and I'll get back to you
[49:37] Speaker 1: on that. I don't know the answer. It's a fair question, though,
[49:41] Speaker 1: but I don't know the answer to that. Although Silver Surfer,
[49:44] Speaker 1: thank you friend for the three ninety nine super Thanks.
[49:47] Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. And with that, let's grab our
[49:50] Speaker 1: next guest. It looks like it's gonna be militant ortho.
[49:54] Speaker 1: And oh, Darwin came back. Let's see if his equipment
[49:57] Speaker 1: works this time, Darwin. Welcome back.
[50:00] Speaker 4: Hello?
[50:02] Speaker 1: All right, Darwin? Sorry, where'd we leave off?
[50:06] Speaker 6: Oh?
[50:06] Speaker 4: Yeah, no problem.
[50:08] Speaker 5: So we were talking about the argument you use on
[50:12] Speaker 5: quote philibros.
[50:13] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the argument from time. Yeah, what about it?
[50:15] Speaker 1: You don't like it? No?
[50:17] Speaker 9: No, no, I like it a lot, And in fact,
[50:20] Speaker 9: I've been going around and share sharing it with people.
[50:26] Speaker 5: They don't like it so much because of the implications.
[50:30] Speaker 1: It's logically true, though, right, But I was.
[50:35] Speaker 4: And I know it's chat.
[50:36] Speaker 5: GPT is not like the be all and end all
[50:39] Speaker 5: of truth or whatever, but it came up with a
[50:43] Speaker 5: slightly sounder form for the argument.
[50:47] Speaker 2: I don't know if that.
[50:48] Speaker 5: Interests you at all.
[50:49] Speaker 1: Actually it does. Let me open up my cheat sheet
[50:51] Speaker 1: and see if it needs to be modified. Give me
[50:53] Speaker 1: a second. All right, what's the what's the new layout
[50:57] Speaker 1: of the argument.
[50:59] Speaker 5: So, as it explained, syllogism is formally, all a's are B,
[51:08] Speaker 5: all b's are c. So therefore all a's r C,
[51:12] Speaker 5: and so there's.
[51:13] Speaker 9: A bit of wiggle room in the way that the
[51:15] Speaker 9: argument is phrased, or at least when when I last
[51:18] Speaker 9: heard it. So an update might be all acts of
[51:25] Speaker 9: creation involved a change of state something like that. The
[51:35] Speaker 9: fact phrasing I don't have off the top of my head.
[51:37] Speaker 9: That's why I broke up earlier, because I was navigating.
[51:39] Speaker 5: To that tab.
[51:41] Speaker 1: That's like the word involved. I think that's a good one.
[51:46] Speaker 4: Check.
[51:46] Speaker 1: Thank you for the the budding heart. I appreciate the
[51:49] Speaker 1: good to see it. Chet.
[51:51] Speaker 5: Yeah. The second one is all changes of state have
[51:57] Speaker 5: it before and after?
[51:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, I got that.
[52:00] Speaker 5: Therefore all acts of creation have it before and after.
[52:09] Speaker 1: Sure, so you've added a secondary premise after that, just
[52:14] Speaker 1: make the transition easier.
[52:16] Speaker 2: Correct.
[52:17] Speaker 9: So, and then the the premise leading into the conclusion
[52:22] Speaker 9: is if all acts of creation have it before and after,
[52:31] Speaker 9: time is implied.
[52:34] Speaker 5: In that m H and so therefore conclusion time cannot
[52:40] Speaker 5: be created.
[52:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't dislike that rendition of it.
[52:45] Speaker 1: I think that's certainly a good one.
[52:49] Speaker 9: On some point I'll find the exact phraseology because it's
[52:53] Speaker 9: a lot more concise and eloquent.
[52:57] Speaker 5: But the other thing I wanted to say was when presenting.
[53:04] Speaker 9: These sorts of arguments to people, how might you approach
[53:08] Speaker 9: it such that it's more convincing, because I get a
[53:13] Speaker 9: lot of push back and just outright denial when I
[53:17] Speaker 9: present these kinds of things to people.
[53:21] Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I don't know if this
[53:24] Speaker 1: particular syllogism is like the best syllogism, because there's a
[53:29] Speaker 1: lot of answers to it. Because you could say that, well,
[53:31] Speaker 1: God is in time, He's always been in time and
[53:34] Speaker 1: it's like part of his nature or something like that. Right.
[53:37] Speaker 1: You could also say that, well, God has his own
[53:39] Speaker 1: timeline and he created another timeline for us. So there
[53:43] Speaker 1: are kinds some ways around it. Oh, okay, So I
[53:45] Speaker 1: don't know if this argument works on everybody. I just
[53:48] Speaker 1: think it works on most people because most people have
[53:51] Speaker 1: this idea that God created time, but not everyone believes
[53:55] Speaker 1: that God created time. If you don't believe God created time,
[53:58] Speaker 1: then this argument doesn't matter.
[54:00] Speaker 5: Sure, I'm not sure if this was explored in the original, but.
[54:09] Speaker 2: It might may not have been.
[54:10] Speaker 5: So if I'm bringing up something that's redundant, I apologize.
[54:15] Speaker 9: Einstein posits that space and time are an inseparable interwoven fabric.
[54:22] Speaker 5: Yes, so my original argument space was also not created.
[54:27] Speaker 1: Yes, my original argument when I first started using this
[54:31] Speaker 1: was specifically to dovetail to space time because space time
[54:34] Speaker 1: are continuum. You can't have one without the other, which
[54:37] Speaker 1: means God didn't create time or space and space time
[54:41] Speaker 1: of course appears to be perhaps even a property of
[54:46] Speaker 1: the physical matter. And if that's the case, or at
[54:51] Speaker 1: least of stuff. And if that's the case, then it
[54:56] Speaker 1: seems to be that it just existed forever.
[54:59] Speaker 2: Right.
[55:00] Speaker 9: The implication is that time and space are eternal. Lastly,
[55:07] Speaker 9: I don't know if this would be something of interest
[55:10] Speaker 9: to you or the viewers, but I think it would
[55:14] Speaker 9: be good fun to play Devil's advocate, sort of posing
[55:19] Speaker 9: as a Christian, to try to to try to demonstrate
[55:25] Speaker 9: some of the kinds of arguments that I hear and
[55:28] Speaker 9: that come to the table a lot, so that people
[55:32] Speaker 9: who are watching and listening, when they are interacting with
[55:35] Speaker 9: theists in the broader community, that they would be you know,
[55:40] Speaker 9: better equipped to have these sorts of conversations and to
[55:43] Speaker 9: be more persuasive and you know, not lead to oh
[55:48] Speaker 9: and like you know, people getting mad, right, yeah, you know,
[55:52] Speaker 9: spreading good information?
[55:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, sometimes I get an apologies up here, and
[55:57] Speaker 1: they're being nice. Sometimes I'll help them by giving them
[56:01] Speaker 1: better arguments or showing them how to get out of
[56:05] Speaker 1: my arguments so that they can come back next time
[56:07] Speaker 1: and provide better arguments. But the reality is, when I
[56:11] Speaker 1: give them answers to my initial argument and I already
[56:15] Speaker 1: know what they're going to come back with, I I
[56:17] Speaker 1: already have arguments for what they're going to come back with.
[56:19] Speaker 1: Like I'm already two three layers deep and they're still
[56:22] Speaker 1: on layer one.
[56:24] Speaker 5: Right, You're playing forty chests and they're playing checkers.
[56:28] Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, like huge brain. But it's just that I've
[56:32] Speaker 1: already explored all, like all these issues, Like I spent
[56:35] Speaker 1: you know, twenty plus years of my life doing just
[56:38] Speaker 1: exploring these issues. So it's like I'm not coming to
[56:42] Speaker 1: the table like blank slate, you know what I mean?
[56:45] Speaker 2: Right?
[56:47] Speaker 9: So I think So the reason I joined this chat
[56:51] Speaker 9: was specifically to ask about that syllogism and to possibly
[56:55] Speaker 9: improve it.
[56:56] Speaker 5: I'll come back later at some point with more concise
[57:00] Speaker 5: version of it, but.
[57:03] Speaker 9: I just wanted to say that I really love your content.
[57:07] Speaker 9: I haven't I've been you know, watching this sort of
[57:10] Speaker 9: stuff for a very long time now. When I was sixteen,
[57:16] Speaker 9: I had someone call me an idiot for a theistic idea.
[57:20] Speaker 2: That I was toying around with.
[57:23] Speaker 5: And at the time I was not really like devout
[57:26] Speaker 5: or anything, but I was like, yeah, sure there's a God.
[57:29] Speaker 9: You know, usually this is the way people are now,
[57:31] Speaker 9: they're quote spiritual.
[57:35] Speaker 5: I see that a lot.
[57:36] Speaker 9: But anyways, it led me down a course of like
[57:39] Speaker 9: asking questions and asking questions and asking questions, and like
[57:43] Speaker 9: the harder and longer I searched for God, the further
[57:46] Speaker 9: and more out of reach. It seemed to be this concept, Yeah.
[57:51] Speaker 1: God only works if you go the route of just
[57:54] Speaker 1: believe and have faith, don't ask questions, right.
[57:59] Speaker 5: Yeah, And I come across that a lot.
[58:01] Speaker 2: But I was was just going to say that.
[58:05] Speaker 5: The way that you so thoroughly.
[58:09] Speaker 9: Deconstruct all of these ideas is I have yet to
[58:16] Speaker 9: see someone who rivals your skill so well.
[58:19] Speaker 1: I really appreciate the kind of work. That's Okay, well, darn,
[58:24] Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Joining our discord and do some dialogue
[58:27] Speaker 1: in the discord too. We've got some people in the
[58:29] Speaker 1: discord that are pretty adept at philosophy that might be
[58:31] Speaker 1: interested in dialoguing with you.
[58:34] Speaker 5: Okay, where would I find that information?
[58:37] Speaker 1: It's in my profile on YouTube. It's also in my
[58:39] Speaker 1: link tree. And if you can't find it, just shoot
[58:44] Speaker 1: me an email. I'll send it to you. My email
[58:46] Speaker 1: is on my profile too.
[58:48] Speaker 5: Cool cool, Thank you so much. I honestly didn't think
[58:52] Speaker 5: I was going to get an opportunity to speak.
[58:54] Speaker 9: So I'm going to keep watching your contents and maybe
[58:58] Speaker 9: one day I can play for the well not the dabble.
[59:01] Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I get you.
[59:04] Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Ye, cheers friend, Well W for W
[59:14] Speaker 1: for the guests sounds like he dabbled in religion and
[59:17] Speaker 1: quickly learned that that probably isn't isn't the route to
[59:21] Speaker 1: go Adam, thank you so much for the nineinety nine friend,
[59:25] Speaker 1: and it says, I hate the argument that God is
[59:27] Speaker 1: a sinophile watching our lives like movies. It makes me cringe.
[59:31] Speaker 1: I used to I used it when I was in ministry,
[59:35] Speaker 1: and now I see how dumb it is. Also, no
[59:38] Speaker 1: well done, duck. The duck's hard. You have to be
[59:42] Speaker 1: careful with what you do. Duck. You can't undercook it,
[59:44] Speaker 1: but you don't want to burn it like super nasty. Yeah,
[59:47] Speaker 1: maybe a little crisp on the fatty side. Listen, duck
[59:50] Speaker 1: can be delicious if you do it right. But you're right,
[59:52] Speaker 1: Like this idea that God is up there just like
[59:55] Speaker 1: watching you, like do your wife is the most horrific thing.
[1:00:00] Speaker 1: But theoretically that's what happens. I saw one fifty verse one.
[1:00:03] Speaker 1: God sits you know, enthroned, you know, above the firm
[1:00:07] Speaker 1: movement and looks down and you know, like God is
[1:00:09] Speaker 1: watching you from above. The firmament is crazy, crazy work.
[1:00:13] Speaker 1: And Harah says human flesh is unclean, and it is
[1:00:17] Speaker 1: stated many times not to eat drink blood. So how
[1:00:20] Speaker 1: does that work with commune and all praise dougs? So Harrah,
[1:00:23] Speaker 1: this is such a good point. We brought this up
[1:00:24] Speaker 1: recently actually where the New Testament is so crazy because
[1:00:29] Speaker 1: all throughout the Old Testament, God's like, don't eat or
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: drink the blood, you know, don't you know, don't touch
[1:00:37] Speaker 1: dead bodies. You know, He's adamant about it. Absolutely, do
[1:00:42] Speaker 1: not eat anything with the blood in it. And then
[1:00:45] Speaker 1: immediately Jesus shows up and Jesus is like, you gotta
[1:00:48] Speaker 1: eat my flesh and drink my blood. No wonder in
[1:00:50] Speaker 1: John chapter six. So many of the people that were
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: there that were Jewish, who are like, what the what
[1:00:56] Speaker 1: is this clown talking about? Get this dude out of here.
[1:01:00] Speaker 1: So the idea that God spend all this time in
[1:01:02] Speaker 1: the Old Testament saying what if you do don't eat
[1:01:05] Speaker 1: or drink anything with blood in it, and then God's like,
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: drink my fucking blood. Crazy, Maryland, you must be unbanned.
[1:01:13] Speaker 1: Good to see Maryland. Behave yourself while you're here. Maryland.
[1:01:17] Speaker 1: Don't get banned again. Maryland says, you are God and King. Well, Maryland,
[1:01:21] Speaker 1: I appreciate the kind words. It's good to see you.
[1:01:23] Speaker 1: Behave yourself. Okay, don't get banned again. You're gonna get
[1:01:27] Speaker 1: yourself banned, so behave yourself. But great to see him. Also,
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: we've got the other Epithiono with us. Thank you so
[1:01:34] Speaker 1: much for the twenty MX. He says, precepts are boring.
[1:01:37] Speaker 1: Bong bros. WHOA what's reality? That's basically it right? Define
[1:01:42] Speaker 1: the meaning of his is crazy that these people even exists.
[1:01:46] Speaker 1: It's wild to me and hard work, says the Orthobot
[1:01:50] Speaker 1: claims he'll die for his religion. Just don't ask him
[1:01:52] Speaker 1: to present an argument for it. Isn't that the craziest shit.
[1:01:55] Speaker 1: I'll die for Jesus. What I won't do is provide
[1:01:58] Speaker 1: a rational defense for Jesus. Not until I burden shipped
[1:02:01] Speaker 1: endlessly and brim Thank you for the find out I
[1:02:03] Speaker 1: was super I was wondering how to deal with a
[1:02:06] Speaker 1: Christian that keeps fallacy, fallacying and just calling me intellectually dishonest.
[1:02:10] Speaker 1: He seems to be projecting so much. Get away from
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: logical arguments. He's obviously not equipped for it. Get away
[1:02:17] Speaker 1: from logical arguments and turn to the Bible. Show him
[1:02:20] Speaker 1: the horrific stuff in the Bible that disagrees with his worldview.
[1:02:23] Speaker 1: And he can't charge you with a fallacy then, because
[1:02:26] Speaker 1: you're not making a logical argument necessarily, you're just showing
[1:02:29] Speaker 1: how God supports slavery. It's not a fallacy, it just
[1:02:32] Speaker 1: happens to be that it's something he's going to find detestable.
[1:02:35] Speaker 1: Or show him that Jesus didn't provide proof to be
[1:02:38] Speaker 1: the messigety because he didn't do any Messianic prophecies. And
[1:02:41] Speaker 1: last one from Josh Josh is, by the way, congrats
[1:02:43] Speaker 1: on going full time. Well thank you, Josh, supporters and
[1:02:46] Speaker 1: friends like you make it possible. So it's been listening
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: to atheist shows for years, and yours is really the
[1:02:51] Speaker 1: best platform. Keep on cooking these goofballs. I appreciate the
[1:02:54] Speaker 1: kind word, Josh, I really do. I never imagined I
[1:02:57] Speaker 1: would ever be listed among the ranks of like those
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: on AXP and the Line and whatnot. But here we are.
[1:03:05] Speaker 1: You know, I'm honored that I've got people here supporting me,
[1:03:09] Speaker 1: helping me, learning and teaching in the community. You guys
[1:03:14] Speaker 1: are making me better as much as you think I'm
[1:03:16] Speaker 1: making you guys better. So thanks so much for being here. Friends. Right,
[1:03:20] Speaker 1: we'll get our next guest in here from the TikTok Q.
[1:03:23] Speaker 1: We've got Militant Ortho with us. How you doing, militant,
[1:03:27] Speaker 1: I'm doing good man, How you doing good? Things? For
[1:03:30] Speaker 1: asking militant? I assume you're a Christian? Are you at
[1:03:33] Speaker 1: least eighteen?
[1:03:34] Speaker 5: Yeah?
[1:03:35] Speaker 3: I'm eighteen. I was born in twentyd and six Octumber fifth.
[1:03:37] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:03:37] Speaker 1: Cool, And do you believe in the Christian God. That's
[1:03:41] Speaker 1: out of the way. What would be your best argument
[1:03:44] Speaker 1: or evidence or reason for believing that the Christian God
[1:03:47] Speaker 1: is real?
[1:03:49] Speaker 5: Well, you were.
[1:03:49] Speaker 3: Addressed in the Old Testament earlier. And the point I
[1:03:52] Speaker 3: would try to make is the Old Testament very clearly
[1:03:57] Speaker 3: teaches the triad, and so i'd say that if you're
[1:04:00] Speaker 3: going to address the point, say it didn't, then I'd
[1:04:02] Speaker 3: say it does, and it just actually proves God because
[1:04:05] Speaker 3: actually is the grounding four essentially reality. Yeah, I can
[1:04:09] Speaker 3: prove they treats to the Triad.
[1:04:10] Speaker 1: Well, first of all, it doesn't teach the triad. And
[1:04:12] Speaker 1: second of all, nothing you say is going to be
[1:04:15] Speaker 1: new to me, so beware. And third of all, it
[1:04:17] Speaker 1: wouldn't matter even if it did, because it doesn't make
[1:04:20] Speaker 1: Jesus God. It doesn't make them the Messiah. It doesn't
[1:04:22] Speaker 1: make anything in the book true.
[1:04:24] Speaker 3: It does it does make it.
[1:04:26] Speaker 1: So what you're doing is making a theological argument. I
[1:04:30] Speaker 1: could give a shit about your theology. I don't care
[1:04:32] Speaker 1: if you think the Trinity is real. I don't care
[1:04:34] Speaker 1: if you don't believe in the Trinity. None of that
[1:04:37] Speaker 1: makes Jesus the Messiah. None that makes them God. I'm
[1:04:39] Speaker 1: interested in the argument that leads one to believe that
[1:04:43] Speaker 1: this book is true and that the God of this
[1:04:45] Speaker 1: book is real.
[1:04:47] Speaker 3: Well, you you were addressing a point earlier you made
[1:04:50] Speaker 3: two points there, and I don't think they were true,
[1:04:53] Speaker 3: and I wanted to.
[1:04:54] Speaker 1: Don't care if you think they're true or not. We're
[1:04:56] Speaker 1: talking about whether or not God is real. You can
[1:04:58] Speaker 1: take your theological debate to someone who wants to debate theology.
[1:05:04] Speaker 3: Okay, So I'd make the first point and say that.
[1:05:06] Speaker 1: So I'm just going to ignore everything you said and
[1:05:09] Speaker 1: move on with my argument.
[1:05:10] Speaker 3: Well, you didn't want to go with a premise that
[1:05:12] Speaker 3: I brought, so I mean, I guess I have to
[1:05:13] Speaker 3: move on.
[1:05:14] Speaker 1: Yes, that would be the thing. Okay, So is your
[1:05:17] Speaker 1: next argument going to be a reason why your God
[1:05:19] Speaker 1: is real?
[1:05:21] Speaker 4: Yeah?
[1:05:22] Speaker 1: Cool, awesome? Must have a premise one.
[1:05:25] Speaker 3: I'd say that. Would you say that all lines of
[1:05:30] Speaker 3: logic and our universal laws of logic themselves? Would you
[1:05:35] Speaker 3: say they're universal and absolute?
[1:05:37] Speaker 1: I would say, I actually don't know. If you ask
[1:05:39] Speaker 1: quantum physics, they are under the impression that possibly not.
[1:05:45] Speaker 1: In fact, that seems to have been the case now
[1:05:49] Speaker 1: for like the last ten years. It's possible that according
[1:05:51] Speaker 1: to quantum physics, something can an event can actually precede
[1:05:55] Speaker 1: the cause in certain cases, and also that something can
[1:06:00] Speaker 1: exists and not exist. There's some funny stuff happening with
[1:06:02] Speaker 1: quantum physics. So the answer to the question is, I
[1:06:04] Speaker 1: don't know that the laws of logic are universal. Alls
[1:06:08] Speaker 1: I can tell you is that they appear to be universal.
[1:06:13] Speaker 3: Okay, And what would you say by universal? What do
[1:06:16] Speaker 3: you mean by universal?
[1:06:17] Speaker 1: In that sense just means they typically always ring true,
[1:06:20] Speaker 1: like we don't seem to find instances typically where they
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: don't prove to be true.
[1:06:27] Speaker 3: Okay. And if it's universal, would you say that points
[1:06:30] Speaker 3: to something that grounds it? No, and why would that be?
[1:06:35] Speaker 1: Why would I.
[1:06:37] Speaker 3: Because something is universal and it's it's not contradicting at
[1:06:41] Speaker 3: a point. And he said, oh, there's there's not a
[1:06:43] Speaker 3: point at which we say looks false, it looks true.
[1:06:46] Speaker 1: Why does it any grounding?
[1:06:46] Speaker 3: And we basically because because it's universal and therefore there
[1:06:50] Speaker 3: can't be something else that can go against their opposit
[1:06:53] Speaker 3: And if.
[1:06:53] Speaker 1: You made the point again, I didn't make the claim
[1:06:55] Speaker 1: that it was universal. My claim is that they appear
[1:06:57] Speaker 1: to be universal. And I still don't know what case.
[1:06:59] Speaker 1: I still don't know why that needs grounding.
[1:07:03] Speaker 3: Okay, But in what cases are not universal?
[1:07:05] Speaker 1: I never said I knew cases. I was saying in
[1:07:07] Speaker 1: quantum physics. They detail cases where it seems to be
[1:07:11] Speaker 1: that the laws of logic don't always hold. That is
[1:07:14] Speaker 1: quantum physics. I'm not a quantum physicist, which is why
[1:07:17] Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, I don't know if the
[1:07:21] Speaker 1: laws of logic are always true. They appear to always
[1:07:24] Speaker 1: be true until you dive into quantum physics. Then you've
[1:07:28] Speaker 1: got stuff happening that seem to contradict those particular laws
[1:07:32] Speaker 1: of logic. Through laws of logic. That being said, none
[1:07:35] Speaker 1: of that's relevant. I could grant you that they're universal
[1:07:38] Speaker 1: or that they're constant, and that doesn't get you anywhere.
[1:07:41] Speaker 1: It doesn't justify why they need grounding.
[1:07:46] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, But if you're going to say that's these
[1:07:50] Speaker 3: laws themselves, if you grants me the universal, what is it?
[1:07:53] Speaker 3: What constitute it being universal?
[1:07:56] Speaker 1: This is an observation is how the universe works. The
[1:07:58] Speaker 1: laws of logic are not prescriptive, they're descriptive. They're how
[1:08:02] Speaker 1: the universe works.
[1:08:05] Speaker 3: Yeah, but there has to be if you actually, if
[1:08:09] Speaker 3: you want to make the argument that's these laws of
[1:08:12] Speaker 3: logic are a universal and it deserves to be the true,
[1:08:15] Speaker 3: and this is the case, then what would be the
[1:08:18] Speaker 3: instance in which this is not the case. Is there
[1:08:20] Speaker 3: any grounding at which we can find this in observable reality?
[1:08:23] Speaker 1: But I just told you quantum physics is the only
[1:08:27] Speaker 1: field that has made a claim in which the laws
[1:08:30] Speaker 1: of logic may not always hold true. If you want
[1:08:33] Speaker 1: to know more about quantum physics, you can ask a physicist.
[1:08:35] Speaker 1: My friend doctor Blitz is glad to share some of
[1:08:38] Speaker 1: the quantum stuff with you. I'm not a quantum physicist.
[1:08:42] Speaker 1: I told you I can grant you that they're universal
[1:08:44] Speaker 1: for the sake of the argument, because I'm not a
[1:08:46] Speaker 1: quantum physicist, and I'm not prepared to give you the
[1:08:49] Speaker 1: argument from quantum physics. It doesn't matter to me if
[1:08:52] Speaker 1: they're universal or not. They still are not prescriptive. They're
[1:08:55] Speaker 1: just descriptive. It's how the universe behaves.
[1:08:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking. I've seen doctor Blitz
[1:09:01] Speaker 3: h he's a cool guy. But I'd say that this
[1:09:04] Speaker 3: wouldnt assist honestly an uncaused mover, because if you're gonna
[1:09:07] Speaker 3: say that time itself, there has to be a which
[1:09:11] Speaker 3: state of which we beings are contingent. So like in
[1:09:14] Speaker 3: my view, we again, I just don't got that.
[1:09:16] Speaker 1: I don't even you haven't even started the contingency argument
[1:09:19] Speaker 1: yet you're still on tag.
[1:09:22] Speaker 3: Yeah if all things, yeah, I'm making, I'm making.
[1:09:24] Speaker 1: Do you want to do tag or do you want
[1:09:25] Speaker 1: to do the contingency argument? Now you're flip flopping?
[1:09:28] Speaker 3: Well you why didn't foot flop? You just said, okay,
[1:09:30] Speaker 3: that proves the case. You granted it to me. So
[1:09:32] Speaker 3: I just said, okay, whatever, because you said you.
[1:09:34] Speaker 1: Started on tag argument. Were you're not going to run
[1:09:35] Speaker 1: tag with the laws of logic?
[1:09:37] Speaker 3: Well I wanted to. Yeah, I was going to address something.
[1:09:40] Speaker 1: Okay, So did you want to finish your bad tag
[1:09:42] Speaker 1: argument or do you want to move to the conditions?
[1:09:46] Speaker 3: Well, you you loop past my tag arguments.
[1:09:48] Speaker 1: I know you're right, Yeah, your tag argument fails right
[1:09:51] Speaker 1: out the gate.
[1:09:51] Speaker 4: I know.
[1:09:52] Speaker 3: No, I didn't you. You just said I'll grant it
[1:09:56] Speaker 3: to you, and then you're like, okay, this just seems
[1:09:58] Speaker 3: to be the case. Okay, Okay, that's just a sim
[1:10:00] Speaker 3: in the position and just seem seems to be the case.
[1:10:02] Speaker 3: So I was like, okay, fine, I'll just move on
[1:10:04] Speaker 3: to the next premise. So since you wanted to move.
[1:10:07] Speaker 1: On to it, go for it next premise.
[1:10:10] Speaker 3: Okay. So if if we are contingent beings, and in
[1:10:14] Speaker 3: my view, God can only know We can only know
[1:10:17] Speaker 3: God through his mediation.
[1:10:17] Speaker 1: What do you think contingent means.
[1:10:21] Speaker 3: Something that requires that like we're oh so yeah, we
[1:10:26] Speaker 3: we we require something that we require to, We require
[1:10:33] Speaker 3: something that needs to, we need to, we require something
[1:10:35] Speaker 3: that we make us to exist. My bad, unstay my
[1:10:38] Speaker 3: words right now?
[1:10:38] Speaker 1: Why are orthor bros like this?
[1:10:41] Speaker 4: My bad?
[1:10:42] Speaker 3: My bad? No, So basically all contingents, I'm.
[1:10:44] Speaker 1: Saying, why why do or bros think that philosophy is
[1:10:47] Speaker 1: going to get you to God? I don't understand you people.
[1:10:49] Speaker 1: It's specifically an Orthodox Christian thing. Why is it because
[1:10:54] Speaker 1: you can't defend your Bible? Well, what's the deal?
[1:10:57] Speaker 3: Because have you read Because if you read the Theologians,
[1:11:01] Speaker 3: they're pretty clear on what they on what this actually means.
[1:11:04] Speaker 3: If you're if the point I'm trying to.
[1:11:05] Speaker 1: Mere literally not. I've read Theologians, They're not clear at all.
[1:11:09] Speaker 3: Okay, which ones? I've read almost all of the Church fathers,
[1:11:13] Speaker 3: which ones.
[1:11:14] Speaker 1: Literally almost all of them. I went through the Philip
[1:11:16] Speaker 1: schaff h Anti Nicean Fathers, and then I went through
[1:11:20] Speaker 1: the post nice and fathers.
[1:11:23] Speaker 3: Okay, have you read so John van Mascus.
[1:11:27] Speaker 1: I haven't gone through John from Damascus since I was
[1:11:29] Speaker 1: in seminary.
[1:11:32] Speaker 3: Okay, and are you aware of what his So Maximus's
[1:11:35] Speaker 3: confessor also makes a point to so what would be?
[1:11:39] Speaker 3: He makes the point of the aeons right, the the
[1:11:42] Speaker 3: the timeless time.
[1:11:43] Speaker 1: So I don't believe in a lack of time. None
[1:11:46] Speaker 1: of these arguments are sensible because I don't believe time
[1:11:48] Speaker 1: could not exist.
[1:11:52] Speaker 3: Okay, but I made the point that if we're contingent
[1:11:55] Speaker 3: beings and rely on something to exist, then there has
[1:11:57] Speaker 3: to be something that is the uncaused movement?
[1:11:59] Speaker 1: What do we rely on?
[1:12:00] Speaker 3: But we're relying something that is eternal and that can't
[1:12:03] Speaker 3: be an opposition. Why so polytheism cannot be true? Well,
[1:12:06] Speaker 3: I'm explaining it. We require it because we're contingent beings
[1:12:10] Speaker 3: and therefore we're contingent on something. You haven't defined contingency yet, Yeah,
[1:12:16] Speaker 3: a requirement for something to exist. We require something are
[1:12:19] Speaker 3: very being to exist?
[1:12:20] Speaker 1: And what do we Why do I require something to
[1:12:23] Speaker 1: exist because there's a cause. Do you think the cause
[1:12:30] Speaker 1: is the requirement? Yeah?
[1:12:32] Speaker 3: If your cause, and therefore you cannot you have contingency
[1:12:35] Speaker 3: on something like I'm contingent upon my existence because of
[1:12:39] Speaker 3: I'm from a human being.
[1:12:40] Speaker 1: Right there, you go, Okay, so we're contingent because there
[1:12:43] Speaker 1: was a cause that brought us to be right.
[1:12:46] Speaker 3: It's not just that, though, It's also the fact that
[1:12:49] Speaker 3: if we're contingent beings, then therefore what would therefore be
[1:12:53] Speaker 3: the cause that would cause temporality? Like like a contingency.
[1:12:57] Speaker 1: There's no contingency for it's just the the fact that
[1:13:00] Speaker 1: it exists. Right, So, causation exists in your worldview and
[1:13:04] Speaker 1: in my worldview, and the atoms that caused me to
[1:13:09] Speaker 1: happen was a system of cause and effect. I exist
[1:13:13] Speaker 1: because of all the causes before me, and the causes
[1:13:16] Speaker 1: before me exist because of the causes before them. And
[1:13:18] Speaker 1: there's an infinite regress of causes. And now you're going
[1:13:21] Speaker 1: to tell me that infinite regresses are possible, and you'll
[1:13:23] Speaker 1: never be able to land that plane. We'll spend an
[1:13:25] Speaker 1: hour arguing over it, and you're gonna leave frustrated.
[1:13:29] Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, an infinite regress. Okay, so it's just going
[1:13:32] Speaker 3: to go back.
[1:13:32] Speaker 1: It's almost like I'm prophetic. It's almost like I'm prophetic.
[1:13:35] Speaker 1: All of your arguments are gonna all of your arguments,
[1:13:38] Speaker 1: all of your arguments against this. They're going to require
[1:13:40] Speaker 1: you to prove that infinite regresses can't exist.
[1:13:43] Speaker 3: No, I'm all, I'm staying as your position. I'm just saying, Okay,
[1:13:46] Speaker 3: an infinite regress something that which it just has to
[1:13:48] Speaker 3: come before before it's just a continual loop.
[1:13:51] Speaker 1: Okay, so it's not a loop before it's I mean
[1:13:54] Speaker 1: it's theoretically no, it's linear.
[1:13:56] Speaker 3: It's an infinite regress.
[1:13:58] Speaker 1: And yes, no time is linear.
[1:14:02] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So if time itself and our contingency were
[1:14:06] Speaker 3: contingent beings, what is the cause of contingency? What is
[1:14:10] Speaker 3: the grounding?
[1:14:11] Speaker 1: Contingency is not a thing that exists. Contingency is a discription.
[1:14:14] Speaker 6: I know.
[1:14:14] Speaker 3: I know we are contingent.
[1:14:16] Speaker 5: I know it.
[1:14:16] Speaker 3: Contency isn't like a it's isn't ansiness or something like that.
[1:14:20] Speaker 3: I'm just saying that, since we're contingent, what would be
[1:14:23] Speaker 3: there for the cause? If you are you presupposing the
[1:14:27] Speaker 3: infinite regress position.
[1:14:29] Speaker 1: Obviously, I believe in an infinite time, in the past
[1:14:32] Speaker 1: and in the future, and I don't believe that matter
[1:14:35] Speaker 1: or fields or anything else we're created from nothing. I
[1:14:40] Speaker 1: believe that the universe as we know it is eternal
[1:14:43] Speaker 1: in both directions forward and backwards. Okay, why would that
[1:14:47] Speaker 1: be the case, because matter can't be created or destroyed. Logically,
[1:14:51] Speaker 1: time couldn't have been created either. We have no evidence
[1:14:54] Speaker 1: whatsoever to suggest that everything that's here once didn't exist zero.
[1:15:01] Speaker 3: Okay, So if you're going to make the argument that
[1:15:03] Speaker 3: there's no evidence that points to a point at which
[1:15:06] Speaker 3: we did not exist or something that did not exist,
[1:15:09] Speaker 3: what is the evidence, like therefore that like matters always
[1:15:12] Speaker 3: existed like x materia, like.
[1:15:14] Speaker 1: If we're material itself. If there's no evidence that there
[1:15:17] Speaker 1: was ever nothing, then the only logical alternative is that
[1:15:20] Speaker 1: something always existed.
[1:15:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I would therefore ground that to be God,
[1:15:25] Speaker 3: because he would be it would be x n elo
[1:15:27] Speaker 3: from his point of view, craning something that did not matter.
[1:15:30] Speaker 1: Why would you point to something that you have no
[1:15:32] Speaker 1: evidence of, Like, So, for example, if something exists forever,
[1:15:36] Speaker 1: I'm going with the stuff we already know exists. I
[1:15:38] Speaker 1: already know all this universe exists, We're here, we're in it.
[1:15:42] Speaker 1: We have no evidence that God exists. So if I'm
[1:15:45] Speaker 1: picking one of the two things to exist exist eternally,
[1:15:48] Speaker 1: I'm picking the thing that I actually know exists.
[1:15:52] Speaker 3: Okay, Well, actually the point is actually, if you're going
[1:15:54] Speaker 3: to say, oh, there's no matters for God, yes there
[1:15:56] Speaker 3: is actually through divine revelation. If you're going to go to.
[1:15:58] Speaker 1: You can't wait God wait for the divine revelation. Let's
[1:16:01] Speaker 1: get to it.
[1:16:03] Speaker 3: Let's get to it, because okay, divine relation, the Messiah,
[1:16:07] Speaker 3: he hecrdiate has gotten the flesh he certainly was having
[1:16:09] Speaker 3: in my view. Okay, in my view, and if we
[1:16:12] Speaker 3: go to the Old Testament, I want to bring into
[1:16:14] Speaker 3: a divine revelation because I think that it points back
[1:16:17] Speaker 3: to the New Testament and it proves that Jesus is
[1:16:19] Speaker 3: the Messiah. You want to go to the Old Testament.
[1:16:21] Speaker 1: Couldn't care less if the New Testament agrees with the
[1:16:23] Speaker 1: Old Testament on the nature of God. I'm more concerned
[1:16:26] Speaker 1: about whether or not it's true. So again, well I
[1:16:29] Speaker 1: am so again. You you're going You're going all the
[1:16:31] Speaker 1: way back to be the beginning of the argument where
[1:16:34] Speaker 1: you want to have a theological discussion. The theological discussion
[1:16:37] Speaker 1: has nothing to do with it or not your religion
[1:16:38] Speaker 1: is true.
[1:16:41] Speaker 3: Well, no, I made the point that, Okay, if it's
[1:16:43] Speaker 3: an uncaused mover, therefore, the divine relation would prove this
[1:16:46] Speaker 3: uncaused mood to be true. So that's why I wanted
[1:16:48] Speaker 3: to go to the divine revelation. You're going to make
[1:16:50] Speaker 3: this point, prove prove that there was divine revelation. Well,
[1:16:56] Speaker 3: I'd say this divine revelation because.
[1:16:59] Speaker 1: It's a buff the Bible, divine divinely revealed.
[1:17:03] Speaker 3: Uh yeah, well we're not we're not Muslims. We don't
[1:17:06] Speaker 3: think that the Bible is eternal, of course, but like
[1:17:08] Speaker 3: we believe that God revealed himself through the scriptures and
[1:17:11] Speaker 3: also through world tradition.
[1:17:12] Speaker 1: Sure, are the Church are all the teachings of the
[1:17:15] Speaker 1: Bible in errand.
[1:17:19] Speaker 3: What do you mean in errants?
[1:17:20] Speaker 5: Like all the teachings about errants without error?
[1:17:24] Speaker 3: Uh yeah they're not. Yeah, they're they're without her of course.
[1:17:29] Speaker 1: Okay, good checking. What what's your what's your argument?
[1:17:33] Speaker 3: So yeah, so so we're going if you're wanting to
[1:17:36] Speaker 3: make the point that, Okay, this divine revelation proves young
[1:17:39] Speaker 3: cause mover, therefore we have to go divined inflation to
[1:17:42] Speaker 3: see this.
[1:17:42] Speaker 1: Says sure to let's do it. Yeah, demonstrate that any
[1:17:47] Speaker 1: of this was divinely revealed.
[1:17:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. So, like, if we're going to go to the
[1:17:54] Speaker 3: the New test and prophecies that were fulfilled even from
[1:17:57] Speaker 3: the Old Testament, I can start with I'd love to
[1:17:59] Speaker 3: you you're wanting to prove the prophecies, so I'm trying
[1:18:02] Speaker 3: to go to scripture if you're not letting me, so, I'm.
[1:18:04] Speaker 1: I'm asking you too. I said, what do you want
[1:18:05] Speaker 1: to start with?
[1:18:07] Speaker 2: Oh?
[1:18:07] Speaker 3: Yeah, easy, So let's go to the point where Abraham, sorry, Abraham,
[1:18:15] Speaker 3: Abraham eight with the Angel. Let's go.
[1:18:19] Speaker 1: So you're still stuck on the Trinity to nonsense, No,
[1:18:23] Speaker 1: because this is what proves that he can't stop itself.
[1:18:26] Speaker 1: He can't stop himself. He's hung up on this, this
[1:18:29] Speaker 1: theological point that the Trinity is true. Because here's because
[1:18:33] Speaker 1: in our view, the Trinity was militant. Just focus here.
[1:18:38] Speaker 1: You would have to demonstrate that Genesis eighteen happened before
[1:18:42] Speaker 1: the Trinity is even relevant. You're you're putting the cart
[1:18:45] Speaker 1: before the horse. I don't believe Abraham. I don't believe
[1:18:48] Speaker 1: Abraham everested.
[1:18:50] Speaker 3: Yeah, through the old tradition of the church.
[1:18:52] Speaker 1: The old tradition of Church has nothing to do with
[1:18:53] Speaker 1: when they're on Abraham existed, Yes, it does.
[1:18:57] Speaker 3: Why would why would old tradition be thrown out?
[1:18:59] Speaker 1: Because Christianity is not true? In order for in order,
[1:19:03] Speaker 1: in order for in order for the tradition, in order
[1:19:06] Speaker 1: for the tradition to have authority, the tradition must be true.
[1:19:11] Speaker 1: So you have to demonstrate that it's true before you
[1:19:13] Speaker 1: say that the people who came later had authority.
[1:19:18] Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say that God always instituted in authority, whether
[1:19:21] Speaker 3: it be the Temple and then the Church of the Temple.
[1:19:25] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:19:26] Speaker 3: So if we're gonna go with your tradition in the Church,
[1:19:28] Speaker 3: then I'd say that the Jewish tradition going all the
[1:19:31] Speaker 3: way down to the Christian the Church fathers and so forth,
[1:19:33] Speaker 3: the councils, they would therefore ground the tradition itself to
[1:19:38] Speaker 3: therefore keep the truth itself.
[1:19:40] Speaker 2: So the.
[1:19:43] Speaker 1: So do the do the hadiths, do the hodiz in
[1:19:45] Speaker 1: the ground ground the fact that divine revelation was given
[1:19:48] Speaker 1: to Mohammad. No, because the countries but they but they
[1:19:53] Speaker 1: had but no, but they had succession, They had a
[1:19:56] Speaker 1: narration all the way from the present back to Mohammad.
[1:20:00] Speaker 3: Well, no, if it rejects the premiacy of the whole
[1:20:02] Speaker 3: religion that Jesus God and therefore it's not true.
[1:20:05] Speaker 1: Oh okay, so the authority of the succession is irrelevant.
[1:20:08] Speaker 1: Your starting point is Christianity is true, and then because
[1:20:13] Speaker 1: Christianity is true, the succession through the authority of the
[1:20:16] Speaker 1: Church is now true. Same thing like I said with Islam.
[1:20:20] Speaker 1: If your starting point is the religion is true, then
[1:20:22] Speaker 1: I can just ground it in the fact that we've
[1:20:25] Speaker 1: got the Hadize and the narrations. No, so I wanted
[1:20:29] Speaker 1: to really bad.
[1:20:31] Speaker 3: Okay, Hold on a second. You wanted to make the
[1:20:33] Speaker 3: point that this old tradition is false, and I'd say,
[1:20:36] Speaker 3: on what basis? Because if there wasn't a Bible, that
[1:20:38] Speaker 3: the tradition itself would still be available today.
[1:20:42] Speaker 1: The Bible itself is not true, right, the fact that
[1:20:45] Speaker 1: the apostles could have authority For that to be true,
[1:20:48] Speaker 1: the Bible first needs to be true. Because the Bible
[1:20:51] Speaker 1: is not true. The Apostles and everyone who came after
[1:20:54] Speaker 1: them have no authority because the Bible is not true.
[1:20:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, which is why I want to go to the prophecies.
[1:20:59] Speaker 3: You didn't let me.
[1:21:00] Speaker 1: I'm waiting for it. Bring me the prophecies I gave.
[1:21:03] Speaker 3: I gave it to you.
[1:21:05] Speaker 1: Genesis in eighteen is not a prophecy.
[1:21:08] Speaker 3: Listen, no, listen, it's not just about them.
[1:21:10] Speaker 1: You can't stop himself. He's got to go back to
[1:21:12] Speaker 1: the Trinity.
[1:21:13] Speaker 3: He's got to do it. Listen, listen, listen.
[1:21:15] Speaker 1: Okay, there's no prophecy of Jesus and Genesis eighteen. You
[1:21:18] Speaker 1: wanted to go to the actual prophecies. I actually know
[1:21:21] Speaker 1: where they are.
[1:21:21] Speaker 3: You don't speak. I know where they're at.
[1:21:24] Speaker 2: But keen, let me speak.
[1:21:25] Speaker 1: I'm waiting for a prophecy.
[1:21:27] Speaker 3: Okay, cool, Okay. The point is I'm not trying to
[1:21:29] Speaker 3: make the point of the trinity. That's not my point
[1:21:31] Speaker 3: right now.
[1:21:32] Speaker 1: My point is find me the prophecy. Let's go.
[1:21:35] Speaker 3: Okay, this this verse proves that there has to be
[1:21:38] Speaker 3: an internal messenger for them for the misiety.
[1:21:40] Speaker 1: It doesn't.
[1:21:41] Speaker 3: Yes, it does.
[1:21:42] Speaker 1: No, it doesn't.
[1:21:43] Speaker 3: Because have you okay, have you read Genesis eighteen? You
[1:21:44] Speaker 3: want to read together.
[1:21:45] Speaker 1: I've read every last word of the Bible. I don't
[1:21:47] Speaker 1: believe Abraham even existed before I care what is in
[1:21:51] Speaker 1: Genesis eighteen. I need the first believe that the events transpired.
[1:21:59] Speaker 3: Okay, I already already told you that based on the
[1:22:03] Speaker 3: divine revelation, and you wanted to say, well, okay, well
[1:22:06] Speaker 3: this is okay. I don't care about the trinity. Okay,
[1:22:08] Speaker 3: I'm not making the point about trinity. I'm pointing the
[1:22:10] Speaker 3: point of the prophecies. And therefore the prophecies are true,
[1:22:12] Speaker 3: then they're.
[1:22:12] Speaker 1: Sure they show me the prophecy. That's what I'm waiting for.
[1:22:15] Speaker 1: Where is the prophecy?
[1:22:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So well, I first wanted to prove that
[1:22:24] Speaker 3: there is the Messiah itself prophecy.
[1:22:28] Speaker 1: You mentioned prophecies. You complained that I wouldn't let you
[1:22:31] Speaker 1: go to the prophecies. Now I'm begging you to go
[1:22:34] Speaker 1: to an actual prophecy.
[1:22:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, but here's the thing that you can do. Prophecy
[1:22:39] Speaker 3: himself is based on No, the Messiah is based on
[1:22:44] Speaker 3: He's the eternal messenger of the Father. Therefore, I'm going
[1:22:47] Speaker 3: to point to you to the scripture that says that,
[1:22:49] Speaker 3: and there is a multiplicity.
[1:22:50] Speaker 1: He's not Resiah until he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. That's
[1:22:53] Speaker 1: what I'm waiting for. What did he fulfill?
[1:22:58] Speaker 3: Well, I'd say that he fulfilled many prophecies such as
[1:23:02] Speaker 3: Isaiah Isaiah well, not Isaiah, for they three. This is
[1:23:05] Speaker 3: be pecific. Also, that's in Isaiah forty nine. It says
[1:23:09] Speaker 3: that all the gentiles will be one with the Jews,
[1:23:13] Speaker 3: and then the Jewish nation Israel, will be the light
[1:23:15] Speaker 3: to the gentiles and they will all worship.
[1:23:17] Speaker 1: Yahwah, Yeah, you finally got it. Yes, second Isaiah, Yeah, Isaiah, Yes,
[1:23:22] Speaker 1: of course yea. It claims that when God frees his
[1:23:25] Speaker 1: people from Babylon, he's going to restore them, and the
[1:23:28] Speaker 1: nations are going to see the restoration, and they're gonna
[1:23:31] Speaker 1: all flock to Israel. They're gonna say, holy shit, this
[1:23:33] Speaker 1: God is real.
[1:23:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, if you're gonna make that, yeah, well I
[1:23:38] Speaker 3: look at Israel differently. So I think that Israel itself
[1:23:43] Speaker 3: is the spiritual sentence of God. And it's not the
[1:23:45] Speaker 3: point of Oh, it's just purely it's not provable. We
[1:23:47] Speaker 3: can actually go to the Old Testament we see the
[1:23:49] Speaker 3: job and also Abraham and so forth were justified. So
[1:23:52] Speaker 3: I'm waiting for the prophecy where we're at which prophecy
[1:23:55] Speaker 3: we're going to go to Isaiah forty ninety six.
[1:23:57] Speaker 1: Okay, so you're not gonna like this one at all.
[1:24:05] Speaker 1: I want to put on the screen. Certain five. Now,
[1:24:12] Speaker 1: the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to
[1:24:15] Speaker 1: be his servant? To bring Jacob back to him and
[1:24:17] Speaker 1: that Israel might be Notice that I started with Isaiah
[1:24:20] Speaker 1: fifty three before we got to the prophet. He says,
[1:24:22] Speaker 1: I knew you're going to go to the suffering servant.
[1:24:24] Speaker 1: It's all you guys have uh to bring Jacob. Just listen,
[1:24:28] Speaker 1: to bring Jacob back to him, that Israel might be
[1:24:31] Speaker 1: gathered to him. For I am honored in the sight
[1:24:33] Speaker 1: of the Lord, and my God has become my strength,
[1:24:35] Speaker 1: He says, Is it too light a thing that you
[1:24:37] Speaker 1: should be my servant to raise up the tribes of
[1:24:39] Speaker 1: Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel. I will
[1:24:42] Speaker 1: give you as a light to the nations, that my
[1:24:44] Speaker 1: salvation shall reach the end of the earth. I'm sorry,
[1:24:47] Speaker 1: did Jesus restore the survivors of Israel? Yes?
[1:24:52] Speaker 4: He did?
[1:24:52] Speaker 1: Actually, oh no, he didn't. This is referring to the
[1:24:54] Speaker 1: people that were taking captive in Babylon, the survivors of Israel.
[1:25:00] Speaker 3: But you're just simply you're presupposing that this the Israel
[1:25:03] Speaker 3: that you're talking about, is essentially the physical descendants, because
[1:25:08] Speaker 3: if we go to the promises okay, but if we
[1:25:11] Speaker 3: go to the promises of even in Isaiah, the Second Isaiah,
[1:25:15] Speaker 3: the New Jerusalem.
[1:25:15] Speaker 1: That he'll he's what's the tribe of Jacob? Yeah, the
[1:25:20] Speaker 1: tribe of.
[1:25:21] Speaker 3: Jacob is jacob'scendants.
[1:25:22] Speaker 1: And oh okay, so he's going to raise up the
[1:25:24] Speaker 1: descendants of Jacob. It's almost it's almost like those are
[1:25:27] Speaker 1: actual descendants.
[1:25:29] Speaker 2: Oh no, you're not.
[1:25:30] Speaker 3: You're not letting me finish, because this is essentially their descendants,
[1:25:34] Speaker 3: their descendants by essentially faith, they're grafted in.
[1:25:36] Speaker 1: Oh, didn't say anything about faith.
[1:25:38] Speaker 3: No, I'll make my point. In the Old Testament, it's
[1:25:41] Speaker 3: always words. Okay, well you're just pre Okay, can somebody finish?
[1:25:46] Speaker 3: So you see many people that weren't Jews, It's okay.
[1:25:48] Speaker 3: We see many people that weren't Jewish that were justified
[1:25:50] Speaker 3: before God, like like Job himself, Abraham, all the all
[1:25:54] Speaker 3: the other people before him. So the Israel itself was
[1:25:57] Speaker 3: never a so quote unquote a physical place is both
[1:26:01] Speaker 3: a physical and spiritual because the ones who believe are
[1:26:04] Speaker 3: part of the New Jerusalem and the spiritual Israel. So
[1:26:06] Speaker 3: that's what he's talking about when he brings the lost
[1:26:08] Speaker 3: Gentiles to his Israel, which is the Church, which is
[1:26:11] Speaker 3: the body of believers.
[1:26:13] Speaker 1: Do people die in the New Jerusalem?
[1:26:17] Speaker 3: In the New Jerusalem?
[1:26:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, we're already in Isaiah. You want to read about it.
[1:26:23] Speaker 3: It's eternal. No, it's yeah, it's eternal.
[1:26:25] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:26:25] Speaker 3: Well you wait. You're going to a new point though,
[1:26:27] Speaker 3: because you didn't.
[1:26:28] Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm actually demonstrating the folly with your first point.
[1:26:34] Speaker 1: So you your first point is that Jesus through the
[1:26:37] Speaker 1: New Jerusalem is somehow fulfilling Isaiah forty nine. I'm showing
[1:26:40] Speaker 1: to you that that's not the case. I want to
[1:26:42] Speaker 1: find out how, because.
[1:26:44] Speaker 3: You were the one who said, Okay, I's only talking
[1:26:45] Speaker 3: about physical Do you want to.
[1:26:46] Speaker 1: Find out how?
[1:26:49] Speaker 3: Nope, because yeah, I know, I know.
[1:26:50] Speaker 1: I don't want you to disprove me. No, I don't
[1:26:53] Speaker 1: want that.
[1:26:54] Speaker 3: Listen, no, no, I will. You can go through there.
[1:26:56] Speaker 3: I had a problem with that. But first I want
[1:26:57] Speaker 3: to address that you said it can only mean physical
[1:26:59] Speaker 3: ton but I argue that it's also spiritual, because we see.
[1:27:02] Speaker 1: That anyone who is part of anyone who's part of Israel,
[1:27:08] Speaker 1: whether a proselytte or a physical descendant is part of Israel.
[1:27:11] Speaker 1: You don't have to be a blood descendant from somebody
[1:27:15] Speaker 1: to be part of the nation. In fact, that's quite true.
[1:27:18] Speaker 1: And when you look at the Gibbean Nights, the Gibbea Knights,
[1:27:20] Speaker 1: according to the Torah, were supposed to live among the
[1:27:24] Speaker 1: Israelites even though they weren't Israelites. So no one has
[1:27:26] Speaker 1: a problem with God saying that other people, outsiders can
[1:27:31] Speaker 1: join in with what Israel's doing. No one's got a
[1:27:33] Speaker 1: problem with that. The problem is when you say stupid
[1:27:35] Speaker 1: things like they're spiritual descendants. That's a meaningless phrase that
[1:27:39] Speaker 1: means nothing.
[1:27:42] Speaker 3: Actually know, that actually proves my point because no, outside
[1:27:44] Speaker 3: of if they're not Israel by blood, then they would
[1:27:48] Speaker 3: be spiritual by faith.
[1:27:49] Speaker 1: No, spiritual is meaningless. The word spiritual is meaning.
[1:27:53] Speaker 3: Us, okay.
[1:27:55] Speaker 5: But if they're justified by faith and they're not, they're
[1:27:59] Speaker 5: not part of.
[1:28:00] Speaker 1: The word okay. Spiritual is meaningless. It's a meaningless word.
[1:28:04] Speaker 4: Okay.
[1:28:05] Speaker 3: Hold on a second, because they weren't part of the
[1:28:07] Speaker 3: physical descendants of Israel, yet they were the ones just
[1:28:10] Speaker 3: find and grafted in. So you don't have to be
[1:28:11] Speaker 3: I agree, you don't have to be part of physical Israel.
[1:28:14] Speaker 3: What I'm making is that the Israel that mentioning in
[1:28:16] Speaker 3: Isaiah is also referencing the fulfillment of the promise, which
[1:28:19] Speaker 3: is the church that Christ founded.
[1:28:21] Speaker 1: Oh no, there's no promise about that. So let me
[1:28:23] Speaker 1: just read you why your nonsense fails on this argument.
[1:28:27] Speaker 1: So the New Jerusalem, when God creates the new heaven
[1:28:30] Speaker 1: and the new Earth, completely contradicts what Jesus and Revelation says.
[1:28:34] Speaker 1: Says in Isaiah, I'm about to create new heaven and
[1:28:37] Speaker 1: new earth. Former things shall not be remembered or crime
[1:28:40] Speaker 1: to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what
[1:28:43] Speaker 1: I'm creating. I'm about to create Jerusalem as a joy
[1:28:46] Speaker 1: and it's people as a delight. I will rejoice in
[1:28:48] Speaker 1: Jerusalem and delight in my people. No more shall the
[1:28:51] Speaker 1: sound of weeping be heard in it or the cry
[1:28:54] Speaker 1: of distress. Sounds a lot like Revelation twenty one, doesn't
[1:28:57] Speaker 1: it when the New Jerusalem comes down? Yeah, but hold out,
[1:29:01] Speaker 1: we're not done yet. I know you're getting excited, but
[1:29:03] Speaker 1: we're not done yet. So the New Jerusalem in Revelation
[1:29:06] Speaker 1: twenty one comes from this passage. This is where the
[1:29:09] Speaker 1: idea comes from and he says, no more. Oh, sorry,
[1:29:13] Speaker 1: my scroll is scrolling too fast. No more shall there
[1:29:16] Speaker 1: be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
[1:29:20] Speaker 1: or an old person who does not live out a lifetime.
[1:29:23] Speaker 1: For one who dies at one hundred years will be
[1:29:25] Speaker 1: considered a youth, and one who falls short of one
[1:29:28] Speaker 1: hundred will be considered a cursed. So the New Jerusalem,
[1:29:32] Speaker 1: the new Heaven, and new Earth will include a life
[1:29:35] Speaker 1: here on the earth where people still live and people
[1:29:39] Speaker 1: still die, a direct contradiction of the New Testament teaching.
[1:29:43] Speaker 3: No, actually, I think it's the same thing with what
[1:29:46] Speaker 3: was brought up earlier with like a day, is that
[1:29:48] Speaker 3: a thousand years to God? Obviously we know a days
[1:29:50] Speaker 3: on not one thousand years of God. This is making
[1:29:52] Speaker 3: the point that if someone who is one hundred years
[1:29:55] Speaker 3: old will be unalied or die, dope centered youth is
[1:29:58] Speaker 3: comparing how the eternal reality in the New Jerusalem will
[1:30:02] Speaker 3: be that of way longer of a lifespan than this life,
[1:30:06] Speaker 3: because one hundred years there will seem like a youth
[1:30:09] Speaker 3: because they will be eternal.
[1:30:11] Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter if it's one hundred to ten
[1:30:12] Speaker 1: thousand people are still dying.
[1:30:16] Speaker 5: No it's not making the point that they will literally die.
[1:30:18] Speaker 3: It's not.
[1:30:18] Speaker 1: Yes, it says, the one who dies at one hundred
[1:30:21] Speaker 1: years will be considered a youth.
[1:30:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's comparing, how so where the thing we're.
[1:30:28] Speaker 1: At now, So the one who died, the one who
[1:30:29] Speaker 1: dies at a hundred doesn't die. No, it's making the
[1:30:33] Speaker 1: crazy the lies you have to tell yourself is crazy.
[1:30:37] Speaker 3: If you if you read, okay, it says for one
[1:30:38] Speaker 3: who does a one hundredears old will be considered youth.
[1:30:41] Speaker 1: In the the one who dies at a hundred. Yes,
[1:30:44] Speaker 1: a person who dies at a hundred I don't know
[1:30:46] Speaker 1: if you know this is dead.
[1:30:48] Speaker 3: Okay, But it's making the comparison that a hundred years
[1:30:51] Speaker 3: will be considered youth because it is the eternal resting place.
[1:30:55] Speaker 1: It's not eternal. No, it's very long, it's not eternal.
[1:30:58] Speaker 1: It's not eternal.
[1:30:59] Speaker 6: If you die.
[1:31:01] Speaker 3: No, it's making the points that you'res there will seem
[1:31:04] Speaker 3: will seem like a youth.
[1:31:06] Speaker 1: No, it certainly doesn't.
[1:31:08] Speaker 3: Because here's the thing that's comparing the past life the
[1:31:11] Speaker 3: one who dies.
[1:31:13] Speaker 1: In the future, in the new Jerusalem, the one who
[1:31:15] Speaker 1: dies at one hundred will be considered a youth, meaning
[1:31:18] Speaker 1: you're gonna live so long that one hundred seems like
[1:31:22] Speaker 1: a really short period. It seems like you're just a child.
[1:31:25] Speaker 1: That's what it's saying.
[1:31:27] Speaker 3: Because yes, because they're eternal, so they're not eternal.
[1:31:32] Speaker 1: If you die, you're not eternal.
[1:31:34] Speaker 3: No, it's yeah, okay, hold on, it says right here
[1:31:38] Speaker 3: the old person is not livedal lives and for one
[1:31:40] Speaker 3: hundre years we considered youth. So it's comparing, contrasting that
[1:31:44] Speaker 3: in the New Jerusalem, a hundred years will be seen
[1:31:47] Speaker 3: like a youth because it is eternal.
[1:31:50] Speaker 1: It didn't say that. I didn't say that.
[1:31:52] Speaker 3: If it's contrasting, it's contrasting too.
[1:31:57] Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, I saw mom. Let me up a few minutes.
[1:31:59] Speaker 1: Oh oh sorry, I was look at the wrong screen.
[1:32:01] Speaker 1: Go ahead, buddy, I.
[1:32:03] Speaker 4: Just I guess maybe there's some confusion about what eternal means.
[1:32:08] Speaker 1: Oh boy, this is going to open a can again
[1:32:11] Speaker 1: the worms.
[1:32:12] Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I don't know. I was the impression
[1:32:14] Speaker 4: that means never ending.
[1:32:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, that that was my impression. Eternal is completely indefinitely.
[1:32:21] Speaker 3: We can read the verse. Wait, okay, okay, what chapter
[1:32:25] Speaker 3: did you bring up again?
[1:32:25] Speaker 1: From my Isaiah sixty five twenty.
[1:32:31] Speaker 3: Okay, I'll read from the nrspe right now, what what
[1:32:36] Speaker 3: verse again?
[1:32:38] Speaker 4: Twenty and twenty one, sixty five, Chapter sixty five. Okay,
[1:32:47] Speaker 4: Justin does why does God keep changing his mind?
[1:32:51] Speaker 1: But he didn't do that, and all knowing God shouldn't
[1:32:54] Speaker 1: be able to change his mind, that was my understanding.
[1:32:56] Speaker 1: He says he doesn't. He says he doesn't, but he
[1:32:59] Speaker 1: clearly does. In fact, in Exodus thirty three, he has
[1:33:02] Speaker 1: to think. He has to let me think about what
[1:33:04] Speaker 1: I'm gonna.
[1:33:04] Speaker 2: Do with you.
[1:33:05] Speaker 4: It sounds like, you know, my spirit will not contend
[1:33:09] Speaker 4: with him matter for more than one hundred and twenty years.
[1:33:12] Speaker 1: But now.
[1:33:14] Speaker 4: I don't know that.
[1:33:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I can go to the point of thinking
[1:33:17] Speaker 3: that's I mean, a lot of the theologians speak about that.
[1:33:19] Speaker 3: But if we actually go to verse seventeen and verse eighteen,
[1:33:23] Speaker 3: it says right here, in verse eighteen, it says, but
[1:33:26] Speaker 3: be glad and rejoice forever in what I'm creating, for
[1:33:28] Speaker 3: I'm about to create a new Jerusalem as a joy
[1:33:30] Speaker 3: in his people as a delight. So again, if they're
[1:33:32] Speaker 3: rejoicing forever, then this essentially would mean that this isn't
[1:33:36] Speaker 3: what you think it means, oh, certainly they're rejoiced for whatever.
[1:33:40] Speaker 3: So how are they addressing forever then?
[1:33:41] Speaker 1: Because the people will live forever, not every individual. The
[1:33:44] Speaker 1: Israelite people are going to rejoice forever.
[1:33:48] Speaker 3: Wait, you just said the lift forever.
[1:33:50] Speaker 1: The Israelite the people group will live forever.
[1:33:54] Speaker 4: Children, their children have children.
[1:33:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, what does it say that the only the israel
[1:34:00] Speaker 3: it's exclusively, will have that easternal life.
[1:34:02] Speaker 1: He's talking about the new Jerusalem. The new Jerusalem is
[1:34:07] Speaker 1: where the Israelites are going to live. That's the whole
[1:34:09] Speaker 1: second half.
[1:34:10] Speaker 3: Just agreed with me.
[1:34:11] Speaker 1: That's the whole second That's the whole second half of Ezekiel.
[1:34:14] Speaker 1: The whole second half of Ezekiel is about the new Jerusalem.
[1:34:18] Speaker 1: Who's going to live there, what they're going to do
[1:34:20] Speaker 1: in it.
[1:34:22] Speaker 3: You just agree with me that those who can be
[1:34:24] Speaker 3: part of Israel are not always descend from Israel. So
[1:34:27] Speaker 3: you just proved that it is not only those who
[1:34:30] Speaker 3: descend from there, but also those who don't, who are
[1:34:32] Speaker 3: grafted into Israel.
[1:34:33] Speaker 1: But they live there, but they live there, that's the point,
[1:34:38] Speaker 1: because they're grafted in because physically they will live there.
[1:34:43] Speaker 1: They will physically live there. Yes, Okay, that's what we're
[1:34:48] Speaker 1: talking about. They will physically live, They will physically live
[1:34:52] Speaker 1: in the land of Israel, according to Ezekiel, according to Jeremiah,
[1:34:56] Speaker 1: according to Isaiah.
[1:34:59] Speaker 3: Well, yeah, what's the same thing with the temple and
[1:35:02] Speaker 3: the land itself. I think this is just essentially it's
[1:35:06] Speaker 3: pointing to that's the Gentiles themselves, as promise will we
[1:35:09] Speaker 3: grafted in and they are part of the Israel, so
[1:35:12] Speaker 3: therefore they would have eternal life.
[1:35:13] Speaker 1: And if they live wrong, wrong, again, you're really confused.
[1:35:17] Speaker 1: Israel is a people group that's going to be restored
[1:35:20] Speaker 1: to a physical land. They will live in that physical
[1:35:23] Speaker 1: land and worship their God in a physical city named Jerusalem,
[1:35:28] Speaker 1: in a physical in a physical temple that is clearly
[1:35:33] Speaker 1: described in all the major profits.
[1:35:36] Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've read Ezeko about the whole, you know,
[1:35:39] Speaker 3: the temple thing, and they will come to the worst
[1:35:41] Speaker 3: from the temple, thevitical priests. I've seen you make that before.
[1:35:44] Speaker 3: A lot of Yeah, a lot of people already address
[1:35:47] Speaker 3: that you're simply just presupposing that this essentially would be
[1:35:51] Speaker 3: the physical because we there's instances in which this is well,
[1:35:57] Speaker 3: you're presupposing that it is. And I showed you that
[1:35:59] Speaker 3: if it's differ, it's referencing. No, I did for the
[1:36:02] Speaker 3: first showed you want me.
[1:36:05] Speaker 1: To show you why you're on or do you want
[1:36:06] Speaker 1: to make it for yourself? I mean, the more you
[1:36:08] Speaker 1: talk to them, or you're gonna look when you're done
[1:36:10] Speaker 1: to So you know, can you can you let me speak?
[1:36:12] Speaker 3: Bro go ahead, you're gonna okay, hosts, Okay, I let
[1:36:16] Speaker 3: you speak. Thank you. So I made the first example.
[1:36:19] Speaker 3: You said, oh, it's some of the physical distances, and
[1:36:21] Speaker 3: I said, no, it's not necessarily it's only talking about them.
[1:36:24] Speaker 3: It's all talking about people grafted in.
[1:36:25] Speaker 1: And you agreed with me.
[1:36:26] Speaker 3: You said, okay, yeah, that's true. And now I'm making
[1:36:28] Speaker 3: the contention that when it's talking about a new Temple
[1:36:32] Speaker 3: and a new Jerusalem, it's you're simply presupposing that it's
[1:36:35] Speaker 3: a physical place. It's you're you're simply assuming that it
[1:36:39] Speaker 3: has to be the case the Bible. I've read E's Eico,
[1:36:42] Speaker 3: but theal.
[1:36:43] Speaker 1: Do you want me to show you where it says
[1:36:45] Speaker 1: it's a physical place? Yeah?
[1:36:48] Speaker 3: An E's equal. I've read the verse. Yes, okay, and
[1:36:50] Speaker 3: where do where does it say they're going to be
[1:36:52] Speaker 3: restored to the new Temple, the political priestood, the incense
[1:36:56] Speaker 3: and odd stuff.
[1:36:57] Speaker 1: Nope, we're talking about the land. Where does it say
[1:36:59] Speaker 1: they're going to be restored to.
[1:37:03] Speaker 3: The land. It says they'll gather the detribes from the
[1:37:05] Speaker 3: east and the west, and then they will live in
[1:37:08] Speaker 3: the land of Israel.
[1:37:09] Speaker 1: But I'm the land of Israel? Oh, my God, where's
[1:37:12] Speaker 1: the land of Israel?
[1:37:14] Speaker 3: The contention that I'm making is the land of Israel
[1:37:17] Speaker 3: is symbolizing something that is a fulfillment of the promise.
[1:37:20] Speaker 3: So I simply the land of Israel a physical place. No,
[1:37:25] Speaker 3: I'm saying that. When it speaks of things like this.
[1:37:28] Speaker 1: Words have absolutely real meaning to Christians. Zero in the passage,
[1:37:32] Speaker 1: it says, you will live in the land. You will
[1:37:35] Speaker 1: live in the land that I gave your ancest to
[1:37:37] Speaker 1: your ancestors, and you will be my people, and I
[1:37:39] Speaker 1: will be your God. Where is that land that was
[1:37:41] Speaker 1: given to their ancestors? What versus this? In Ezekiel thirty
[1:37:46] Speaker 1: six twenty.
[1:37:47] Speaker 3: Eight okay, E's equals thirty six twenty eighth. Okay. So
[1:37:52] Speaker 3: also in Ezekiel, I believe is it thirty three right
[1:37:55] Speaker 3: where he talks about the chemical levitical priesthood is that.
[1:37:57] Speaker 1: Is that it No, that's going to be later. The
[1:38:01] Speaker 1: priesthood attributed is going to be in forty like forty
[1:38:06] Speaker 1: three to the rest of the end of the book.
[1:38:10] Speaker 3: Okay, but okay, okay, but you made the point. I
[1:38:12] Speaker 3: remember you said that, oh, there'll be a neverlasting priesthood
[1:38:15] Speaker 3: and so forth, and then they'll be gathered. The point
[1:38:17] Speaker 3: that I'm making is that this priesthood symbolizes something further
[1:38:21] Speaker 3: and I believe and based on what the scripture is entailing,
[1:38:25] Speaker 3: based off of the usually descendants, is that it's entailing
[1:38:28] Speaker 3: the fulfillment promise through the church because Christ, well even
[1:38:32] Speaker 3: before Christ, God himself put.
[1:38:34] Speaker 1: You're still put in the cart before the horse. We're
[1:38:36] Speaker 1: talking about the location right now. The priesthood's irrelevant. We
[1:38:38] Speaker 1: can talk about the priesthood next. We're talking about the location.
[1:38:42] Speaker 1: Where is God restoring his people to. He's restoring it
[1:38:45] Speaker 1: to the land that was given to their ancestors, which
[1:38:49] Speaker 1: is where where is that land? Yeah?
[1:38:52] Speaker 3: It's in Israel?
[1:38:53] Speaker 1: Oh okay, So it's a physical place in Israel, is
[1:38:56] Speaker 1: it not?
[1:38:57] Speaker 5: Okay, let's read together what okay E's equal Chapter thirty five.
[1:39:01] Speaker 3: You said, thirty six, thirty six. Okay, and now what verse?
[1:39:04] Speaker 3: Let's read it started out verse twenty eight, verse twenty seven.
[1:39:06] Speaker 3: Which race you want to start out?
[1:39:08] Speaker 1: Whatever you want, twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty
[1:39:09] Speaker 1: eight is the important one.
[1:39:12] Speaker 3: I think we could start out twenty six. I think
[1:39:15] Speaker 3: it's a good part, and then we can go to
[1:39:17] Speaker 3: wherever you want to stop at. So we'll start at
[1:39:19] Speaker 3: twenty six. You want to reader? Are you going to
[1:39:21] Speaker 3: read it?
[1:39:22] Speaker 1: I'll read it. A new heart I will give you,
[1:39:23] Speaker 1: and a new spirit I will put within you, and
[1:39:25] Speaker 1: I will remove from your body the heart of stone
[1:39:27] Speaker 1: and give you a heart of flesh. I will put
[1:39:28] Speaker 1: my spirit within you and make you to follow my
[1:39:31] Speaker 1: statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you
[1:39:34] Speaker 1: shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors,
[1:39:37] Speaker 1: and you shall be my people, and I will be
[1:39:38] Speaker 1: your god the land. That's why the whole second half
[1:39:44] Speaker 1: of Ezekiel is about God restoring the physical land, drawing
[1:39:47] Speaker 1: out physical boundaries where the individual twelve tribes are going
[1:39:51] Speaker 1: to stay.
[1:39:54] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:39:55] Speaker 3: So if you actually, if you read the Renewal of
[1:39:58] Speaker 3: israelstead it says, but when they came to the nations
[1:40:02] Speaker 3: where they can perform the Holy Name. And it says
[1:40:04] Speaker 3: that the God himself when he renews Israel, all nations
[1:40:09] Speaker 3: will be gathered to this location. And the location that
[1:40:13] Speaker 3: I am pointing to is the new heavens and the
[1:40:15] Speaker 3: earth that he's pointing to. Now, what is the new
[1:40:16] Speaker 3: heavens and the new Earth? Heavens can mean many things.
[1:40:18] Speaker 3: It just means the sky, yeah, and yeah, I agree,
[1:40:22] Speaker 3: in the sky. But also there's also references to God's footstool,
[1:40:26] Speaker 3: which is the heaven, and uh, we're just thrown action
[1:40:30] Speaker 3: in his footstal the earth. But also the renewal of
[1:40:33] Speaker 3: the visuale people. Not only it's just a physical location,
[1:40:36] Speaker 3: it's also a spiritual.
[1:40:39] Speaker 2: Well.
[1:40:39] Speaker 1: The heart's irrelevant. The circumcision of the heart is meaningless
[1:40:43] Speaker 1: to our conversation. We're talking about what is God restoring
[1:40:46] Speaker 1: them to. It's a physical land, and he makes that
[1:40:49] Speaker 1: promise a dozen times.
[1:40:53] Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm making the argument that's essentially it's not
[1:40:57] Speaker 3: always a physical place because not not always the Israelites
[1:41:01] Speaker 3: or a physical people. It can also be our physical pop.
[1:41:06] Speaker 1: You literally just earlier physical no such thing as a
[1:41:08] Speaker 1: as a spiritual person.
[1:41:11] Speaker 3: Okay, but you earlier firms they don't have to be
[1:41:14] Speaker 3: a physical descendant, just as it doesn't know.
[1:41:16] Speaker 1: They're physical people. I said, you don't have to be
[1:41:19] Speaker 1: a direct blood descendant to be a member of the
[1:41:22] Speaker 1: Congregation of Israel. This is very clear in the Old Testament.
[1:41:25] Speaker 1: As long as you're willing to live by their laws,
[1:41:28] Speaker 1: you can live in their land with them and worship
[1:41:30] Speaker 1: their God with them. In fact, Isaiah fifty six explicitly says,
[1:41:33] Speaker 1: though the foreigner who joins themselves to the Lord to
[1:41:35] Speaker 1: love the Lord and serve the Lord, and to obey
[1:41:38] Speaker 1: his Sabbath, they can come and give offerings of animals
[1:41:41] Speaker 1: on the altar.
[1:41:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, And Leviticus says that the foreigners reside
[1:41:47] Speaker 3: with you, they are considered to be one of them
[1:41:50] Speaker 3: because they are worship Yes.
[1:41:52] Speaker 1: Okay, they will reside with you in the physical land.
[1:41:57] Speaker 1: According to zach Raia chapter eight as well, there going
[1:42:00] Speaker 1: to come to your land.
[1:42:03] Speaker 4: Okay.
[1:42:04] Speaker 3: But if they're treating them as one of their own,
[1:42:06] Speaker 3: then therefore they'd be identified as an Israeli. And therefore
[1:42:08] Speaker 3: if they're not physical, therefore they're a they're a grafting
[1:42:11] Speaker 3: in from a gentile nation. Yes, but they're not spiritual.
[1:42:17] Speaker 3: They are physical people in a physical people group. The
[1:42:22] Speaker 3: nation of Israel is a real people group, just like
[1:42:26] Speaker 3: Puerto Ricans is a real people group. There are Puerto
[1:42:29] Speaker 3: Ricans living in Puerto Rico that aren't of Puerto Rican blood.
[1:42:33] Speaker 3: They just like an American is a person living in America.
[1:42:37] Speaker 3: Israel is a people group, some of them by blood,
[1:42:41] Speaker 3: some of them just by religion and geography. Yeah, and
[1:42:47] Speaker 3: you have to know what I mean by I mean spiritual.
[1:42:49] Speaker 3: I didn't mean that they're, oh, they're just some non
[1:42:51] Speaker 3: physical person. What I meant was spiritual in the sense
[1:42:54] Speaker 3: that they're grafting in by faith, and the faith itself
[1:42:57] Speaker 3: is what grafts them in because they're even in the
[1:43:00] Speaker 3: One True God. Right, So like you don't have to
[1:43:03] Speaker 3: physical a senate. And also it doesn't not be a
[1:43:05] Speaker 3: physical place because it's describing something further, because the promise
[1:43:09] Speaker 3: that God gives.
[1:43:10] Speaker 1: Promise was a physical place.
[1:43:14] Speaker 3: I'm making it. I'm making the contention that justice the
[1:43:17] Speaker 3: Israelites aren't physical, not all of them are. The essentially,
[1:43:21] Speaker 3: the promise that is given for the land, it is
[1:43:23] Speaker 3: not physical either, because we see a consistent spiritual promise
[1:43:26] Speaker 3: through us.
[1:43:27] Speaker 1: And you would be wrong because God said the land
[1:43:29] Speaker 1: was physical. God gave you measurements for the land. He
[1:43:34] Speaker 1: gave you measurements you could measure it. He said, this
[1:43:38] Speaker 1: is the land that I gave to your ancestors. It's
[1:43:41] Speaker 1: the same land that they prior. We're living in. It's land.
[1:43:48] Speaker 3: Okay, but hold on seconds. If the people of Israel,
[1:43:52] Speaker 3: they're not physical by bloodline, they're physical by their faith,
[1:43:55] Speaker 3: which is spiritual because faith.
[1:43:56] Speaker 1: They're not physical by their faith.
[1:44:00] Speaker 3: They're made in Israelite by their faith. That's literally what
[1:44:03] Speaker 3: grafting and means in the sense of them residing with him.
[1:44:06] Speaker 3: So God promises a new, renewed world. It's it's it's
[1:44:10] Speaker 3: in our view, it's the grafting of earth into the heavens.
[1:44:14] Speaker 3: It's a primorial meeting.
[1:44:15] Speaker 1: No, the heavens is the skies Hasha Miami and Hebrew
[1:44:18] Speaker 1: is just the sky above your head. It's where the
[1:44:21] Speaker 1: firmament and the clouds are. It's not a mystical kingdom
[1:44:24] Speaker 1: far away.
[1:44:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, it's the skies in context, like the
[1:44:30] Speaker 3: birds of the heavens. Like obviously we you know, birds
[1:44:32] Speaker 3: aren't with God near his a dwelling place, right, But
[1:44:36] Speaker 3: the point that I'm making.
[1:44:38] Speaker 1: No, there are, they're just below them. In the Bible,
[1:44:40] Speaker 1: God's throne is on top of the firmendment, at the
[1:44:43] Speaker 1: upper tier of the sky. That's where they thought he was.
[1:44:46] Speaker 1: That's why he has control over the storehouses of rain
[1:44:50] Speaker 1: and snow, because he's controlling the windows in the firmament.
[1:44:54] Speaker 1: The Bible is a is a flat earth document.
[1:45:00] Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that's that he would be above the skies,
[1:45:04] Speaker 3: of course, But when it says heavens and not even
[1:45:08] Speaker 3: every context, would it just mean the skies because we
[1:45:11] Speaker 3: see that God's dwelling place isn't obviously in the sky.
[1:45:14] Speaker 3: This is the Bible, okay, but it's not. It's not
[1:45:18] Speaker 3: in the same level as we perceive it to be
[1:45:20] Speaker 3: in the atmosphere. Like with the word the birds are flying.
[1:45:23] Speaker 3: His dwelling place is transcendent upon that because the skies
[1:45:27] Speaker 3: themselves that we're perceiving is not the same which God
[1:45:30] Speaker 3: is perceiving it. It is He is timelessutable, And you'd
[1:45:33] Speaker 3: be wrong. No, Actually, according to the Bible, if he's transcendent,
[1:45:38] Speaker 3: no he's not. If he's transcendent, he's sitting just on
[1:45:40] Speaker 3: top of the ferment. You're not just sitting on top
[1:45:45] Speaker 3: of a firmament. Okay, when there's figurative speech in the Bible,
[1:45:50] Speaker 3: like his mouth is always.
[1:45:51] Speaker 1: It's it's always figurative. When they don't like what it says.
[1:45:53] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, if you if you read any if this
[1:45:56] Speaker 3: is the crazy.
[1:45:57] Speaker 1: Thing about phil bros is they always want to bring
[1:45:59] Speaker 1: their God of philosophy and put it into the Bible.
[1:46:02] Speaker 1: The God of the Bible is not the God of philosophy.
[1:46:04] Speaker 1: The God of the Bible has anger, he has emotions,
[1:46:07] Speaker 1: he has a nose, he can smell stuff, he has
[1:46:09] Speaker 1: a mouth, he can say things. He has a hand,
[1:46:11] Speaker 1: and he has arms and legs, because that's what it
[1:46:15] Speaker 1: means to be created in the image of God. The
[1:46:17] Speaker 1: gods of this time period, of the time when the
[1:46:20] Speaker 1: Old Testament was initially conceived, were just like super gods,
[1:46:24] Speaker 1: like supermen. That's all they weren't these new Greco Roman
[1:46:28] Speaker 1: idea of immaterial, invisible gods millions of miles away in
[1:46:32] Speaker 1: outer space. That's not what the Old Testament God is.
[1:46:37] Speaker 3: Yeah, but okay, if okay. The point that I've literally
[1:46:40] Speaker 3: made was that these can simplize something further because if
[1:46:44] Speaker 3: you're applying these. We don't believe God is composition because
[1:46:48] Speaker 3: these divine simplicity, right, Divine simplicity in God is what
[1:46:52] Speaker 3: makes it. There is no composition or parts and whatsoever.
[1:46:56] Speaker 1: That's philosophy. That's not the Bible. That's not again, because
[1:47:00] Speaker 1: the God of philosophy is not the God of the Bible. Okay,
[1:47:04] Speaker 1: hold on, show me one passage in the Bible that
[1:47:06] Speaker 1: says that says God is immaterial.
[1:47:09] Speaker 3: I'm trying. I'm trying to make the point. It doesn't
[1:47:10] Speaker 3: have to say that word, you know. That's this honest
[1:47:12] Speaker 3: to make no verbatim.
[1:47:13] Speaker 1: Won't show me any passage in the Bible that would
[1:47:15] Speaker 1: lead one to believe that God is completely immaterial, because
[1:47:18] Speaker 1: every passage that mentions God in the Bible mentions that
[1:47:21] Speaker 1: he looks like us.
[1:47:25] Speaker 3: Okay, okay, before I get to that, do you subscribe
[1:47:29] Speaker 3: to the doodle canon?
[1:47:32] Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean by subscribe?
[1:47:34] Speaker 2: Like?
[1:47:35] Speaker 3: Okay, would you hold to it as as a Hebrew
[1:47:38] Speaker 3: scripture like the or I know it's rain in Greek?
[1:47:40] Speaker 3: But would you be okay with going to the Doudle canon?
[1:47:43] Speaker 5: Oh?
[1:47:43] Speaker 1: Do I believe that the apocryphal works are considered canonical.
[1:47:47] Speaker 1: I would consider them canonical.
[1:47:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, okay, so you would have no problem going there, right, no,
[1:47:54] Speaker 3: go for it, okay, So okay, But before I make that,
[1:47:58] Speaker 3: before I go to the passages in Maccabees and Long
[1:48:00] Speaker 3: Stuff and the other books. But I once make contention
[1:48:03] Speaker 3: this is this is a fair point.
[1:48:05] Speaker 1: Though the Maccabees were written in the in the Greco
[1:48:09] Speaker 1: Roman period or technically the beginning of the Roman period,
[1:48:12] Speaker 1: ending of the Greek period. Just this sord where.
[1:48:17] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know that was the Antiger's Piphanies and
[1:48:19] Speaker 3: all that stuff. I've read them. They're really good books.
[1:48:22] Speaker 3: But essentially what I'm making is like in John Damascus's Exhibition,
[1:48:27] Speaker 3: he says a lot of the theologians actually say that
[1:48:30] Speaker 3: these parts of God, they're symbolizing something such as his
[1:48:34] Speaker 3: his fear and in thinking nation and is turning away
[1:48:36] Speaker 3: from people. We don't we literally, we don't believe that
[1:48:38] Speaker 3: God literally turns his back from somebody. There's no mutable
[1:48:43] Speaker 3: in God. God doesn't change in that sense, and symbolizing
[1:48:46] Speaker 3: that he's revoking something that is you just keep promising,
[1:48:49] Speaker 3: you just keep.
[1:48:50] Speaker 1: Claiming attributes to God without demonstrating why that's the case. Again,
[1:48:54] Speaker 1: your God is a god of philosophy, not a God
[1:48:56] Speaker 1: of the Bible. The God of the Bible has a
[1:49:00] Speaker 1: physical presentation. He travels. A god that is everywhere can't travel.
[1:49:10] Speaker 3: Yeah. The reason, the reason why he travels in the
[1:49:13] Speaker 3: Bible is via his uncreated energies, which is his his
[1:49:16] Speaker 3: uncreated grace. And we also see the uncreated light down
[1:49:19] Speaker 3: critical work, his presence.
[1:49:21] Speaker 1: His presence travels.
[1:49:23] Speaker 3: Yeah, we believe in the essence energy distinction.
[1:49:25] Speaker 4: Do you know what that is.
[1:49:27] Speaker 1: It's been a long time since I've gone over the
[1:49:28] Speaker 1: essence energy, but I can already tell you it's gonna
[1:49:31] Speaker 1: fail because you don't know what energy means. But go
[1:49:33] Speaker 1: for it.
[1:49:35] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[1:49:35] Speaker 3: The nergay of God is basically his operations. And essentially
[1:49:38] Speaker 3: we only know God through his operations and how his
[1:49:41] Speaker 3: mediation is with creatures in our view. And so we
[1:49:43] Speaker 3: can demonstrate this in the Old Testaments with the burning bush,
[1:49:47] Speaker 3: we see that God himself, the Angel of the Lord
[1:49:49] Speaker 3: comes down. It is an uncreated manifestation from God. It
[1:49:54] Speaker 3: himself is not essentially in his essence. Essentially is an
[1:49:57] Speaker 3: operation or energy that is being manifest So the manifestation
[1:50:01] Speaker 3: of what do you think an energy is the energy
[1:50:04] Speaker 3: of God is simply just an operation or attribute of God.
[1:50:07] Speaker 3: It's such as grace, his love, his mercy, and stuff
[1:50:09] Speaker 3: like that. And we believe these can manifest in certain
[1:50:11] Speaker 3: different ways.
[1:50:12] Speaker 1: And it's no one No one's questioning if God can
[1:50:15] Speaker 1: manifest in in different forms. That's not a question. The
[1:50:19] Speaker 1: question is whether or not God has a localized presence
[1:50:22] Speaker 1: or if he's omnipresent.
[1:50:24] Speaker 3: Yeah, the localized presence that is quote unquote in the
[1:50:28] Speaker 3: Bible is his energies, which is his attributes that are
[1:50:31] Speaker 3: being made manifest. Is that the young critical worry of
[1:50:33] Speaker 3: God that most in Aaron's what do you think an
[1:50:35] Speaker 3: attribute is? It's something that pertains, like a property of
[1:50:40] Speaker 3: a person like like essentially the traits of a person
[1:50:42] Speaker 3: like I have the traits of let's say anger, Right,
[1:50:46] Speaker 3: that's atrue of me. But God's energies themselves are attributes
[1:50:50] Speaker 3: of him. And we believe there's a real distinction between
[1:50:52] Speaker 3: his essence. And this is present in the Old Testament
[1:50:55] Speaker 3: because we see in Leviticus nine, we see even Exodus
[1:50:59] Speaker 3: and all stuff, God himself is appearing to those, right,
[1:51:02] Speaker 3: He's appearing to those by via his operations. And this
[1:51:05] Speaker 3: is made very clear to the Old Testament.
[1:51:07] Speaker 1: Actually not make clear at all. What's made clear in
[1:51:09] Speaker 1: the Old Testament is God's presence is localized, which is
[1:51:12] Speaker 1: why Moses implores him in Exos thirty five, if your
[1:51:15] Speaker 1: presence will not go with us, he doesn't want to
[1:51:19] Speaker 1: continue anymore. How is God's presence? How's God's presence going anywhere?
[1:51:24] Speaker 1: If he's omnipresent.
[1:51:26] Speaker 3: Yeah, the very moving force of God is by via
[1:51:29] Speaker 3: his operations, his presence.
[1:51:32] Speaker 1: How can your presence travel if your presence is everywhere?
[1:51:37] Speaker 3: The presence can travel because he is everywhere. So simply
[1:51:40] Speaker 3: be saying no travel.
[1:51:41] Speaker 1: You can't travel if you're everywhere.
[1:51:43] Speaker 3: Just yeah, again, that'd just be a temporal sending.
[1:51:47] Speaker 1: No, it's not temporal at all. You can't travel if
[1:51:49] Speaker 1: you're already there yet.
[1:51:52] Speaker 5: Do you know what?
[1:51:52] Speaker 3: Do you know what economic is?
[1:51:55] Speaker 1: I know what economics means in finance.
[1:51:59] Speaker 3: Okay, you know our view. Economic just means a tenporal sending.
[1:52:03] Speaker 3: And this is via three the operations of God, like.
[1:52:05] Speaker 1: The only sending implies that he's not there yet. If
[1:52:08] Speaker 1: you're omnipresent, you're already there. You can't be sent you
[1:52:10] Speaker 1: can't travel. It's just it's just definitionly true. If you're
[1:52:16] Speaker 1: already there, you can't go there.
[1:52:20] Speaker 3: No, what I'm saying is it's a peering manifest and traveling.
[1:52:23] Speaker 1: So like if you want to travel, if you're already there.
[1:52:26] Speaker 5: Okay, let's read the verse.
[1:52:27] Speaker 3: Then, since you make the claim it's in the Bible,
[1:52:30] Speaker 3: I know it is. But let's read the verse. I
[1:52:31] Speaker 3: want to read the context.
[1:52:32] Speaker 1: There's a bunch of them. You want to read Exodus.
[1:52:34] Speaker 1: I think we can go Excess thirty three.
[1:52:35] Speaker 3: Yeah, actually perfect Exodus. Yes, Exodus, let's go there, all right.
[1:52:40] Speaker 1: Let me grab Extra thirty three. Oh, numbers five is
[1:52:44] Speaker 1: a good one too, and Deuteronomy twenty three. Actually, just
[1:52:46] Speaker 1: a bunch of them.
[1:52:48] Speaker 3: Well, let's start with Exodus. Since you brought up the point.
[1:52:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you're gonna you're gonna go to partial
[1:52:55] Speaker 1: presence on Exous thirty three. It's okay, so it'll.
[1:52:58] Speaker 3: Make partial presence.
[1:53:00] Speaker 1: So you're about to do it, he says, And he
[1:53:03] Speaker 1: said to them, if your presence will not go, do
[1:53:05] Speaker 1: not bring us up from here.
[1:53:09] Speaker 3: Yeah, let's read the context.
[1:53:10] Speaker 1: In the old passage, we are know all the contracts.
[1:53:13] Speaker 1: God is mad that they built a golden calf, and
[1:53:15] Speaker 1: he promises Abraham or Moses, he says, step aside, I'm
[1:53:19] Speaker 1: going to wipe them all out. I'm going to make
[1:53:21] Speaker 1: a nation out of you. And then Moses talks them
[1:53:24] Speaker 1: off the ledge and he's like, hey, no, don't do that.
[1:53:26] Speaker 1: Change your mind, turn from your anger. Remember the promises
[1:53:29] Speaker 1: that you made. And then God changes his mind because
[1:53:33] Speaker 1: Moses talked him off the ledge. And part of Moses
[1:53:35] Speaker 1: talking him off the ledge was like, hey, if your
[1:53:37] Speaker 1: presidence doesn't go with us, don't bring us up from here.
[1:53:41] Speaker 3: Okay, Now what chapter of Exodus is this?
[1:53:44] Speaker 1: Thirty two and thirty three is this whole narrative? But
[1:53:47] Speaker 1: we're in thirty three fifteen.
[1:53:50] Speaker 3: Okay, thirty three fifteen, Okay, So okay, he said in Okay,
[1:53:55] Speaker 3: your prince will go, do not bring him up here.
[1:53:56] Speaker 3: Now what is the concept of this. It's talking about
[1:53:58] Speaker 3: Moses intercession with God because he's speaking on behalf of God.
[1:54:02] Speaker 3: He's the agent of God because he is the one
[1:54:05] Speaker 3: God chose. Okay, So once we're reading this, let's go
[1:54:08] Speaker 3: back actually up to verse twelve. Actually I want to
[1:54:11] Speaker 3: read the context.
[1:54:17] Speaker 1: So verse twelve, Moses said to the Lord see, you
[1:54:20] Speaker 1: have said to me, bring up this people, but you
[1:54:23] Speaker 1: have not let me know whom you will send with me.
[1:54:27] Speaker 1: Yet you have said, I know you by name, and
[1:54:29] Speaker 1: you have also found favor in my site. Now, if
[1:54:32] Speaker 1: I have found favor in your sight, please show me
[1:54:34] Speaker 1: your ways so that I may know you and find
[1:54:37] Speaker 1: favor in your site. Consider too, that this nation is
[1:54:41] Speaker 1: your people. He said, my presence will go with you,
[1:54:44] Speaker 1: and I will give you rest. And then Moses says,
[1:54:47] Speaker 1: if your presence will not go with me, so on
[1:54:48] Speaker 1: and so forth. So God and Moses both agree that
[1:54:51] Speaker 1: his presence travels, it goes.
[1:54:55] Speaker 3: Yeah, his presence. That's not making a metaphysical claim. That's
[1:54:58] Speaker 3: just making that let God be with us so that
[1:55:00] Speaker 3: we can go against this nation. The present itself is
[1:55:06] Speaker 3: just where something is located.
[1:55:08] Speaker 1: Oh so God has a location. Oh jeez, it's almost
[1:55:11] Speaker 1: like words, if you know.
[1:55:13] Speaker 3: Okay, in our in our view, which is what I'm
[1:55:15] Speaker 3: trying to tell you, God himself is immutable and he's
[1:55:18] Speaker 3: outside of time.
[1:55:19] Speaker 1: But that's not in the Bible. That's in philosophy. You
[1:55:23] Speaker 1: keep trying to dictate a philosophy philosophized God into the Bible.
[1:55:27] Speaker 1: He's not there.
[1:55:29] Speaker 3: If he's okay, on, if the God of the Bible
[1:55:31] Speaker 3: says right here, my presence will go with him, he's
[1:55:34] Speaker 3: simply just saying that. Moses basically just saying that, let
[1:55:38] Speaker 3: God be with us so that we can go and
[1:55:41] Speaker 3: do whatever this they're they're gonna do that. It says
[1:55:44] Speaker 3: like let God, Yeah, let God be with you. That's
[1:55:46] Speaker 3: not saying in the little presence of his presence.
[1:55:48] Speaker 1: Presence doesn't say favor, doesn't say honor, says presence. Yeah.
[1:55:56] Speaker 3: It's the same way in saying let God be with us,
[1:55:58] Speaker 3: because it is God who is with it.
[1:55:59] Speaker 1: Didn't say let God be with you, says presence. Okay,
[1:56:03] Speaker 1: but hold on.
[1:56:04] Speaker 3: Words, Different words curarticulate different things.
[1:56:06] Speaker 1: Right, well, what is like what's the definition of presence?
[1:56:12] Speaker 3: Like where something is where God is presence?
[1:56:16] Speaker 1: I know it's almost like we went over this already,
[1:56:20] Speaker 1: but okay, but okay, but hold on a second.
[1:56:22] Speaker 3: Is crazy when Moses says presence, you don't feel.
[1:56:26] Speaker 1: A little bit guilty about lying like this, dude.
[1:56:28] Speaker 3: I'm not lying, dude, I'm trying to make you the
[1:56:31] Speaker 3: crazy if you're He's basically just saying that, let God's
[1:56:36] Speaker 3: presence be with us, because God is with us. God
[1:56:39] Speaker 3: is the isness, the essences of what he is. He
[1:56:42] Speaker 3: is divine, He's absolutely divine.
[1:56:45] Speaker 1: Keep in mind nothing you're saying is in the Bible.
[1:56:49] Speaker 3: Okay, but if he's eternal, then this would apply because
[1:56:52] Speaker 3: it would God.
[1:56:54] Speaker 1: It would God. God's eternality. God's eternality has nothing to
[1:56:59] Speaker 1: do with his presence.
[1:57:00] Speaker 3: Okay, But hold on a second. If he is eternal
[1:57:03] Speaker 3: and in and around all things while being a temporal,
[1:57:06] Speaker 3: therefore the isness, the essence of self wouldn't become manifest,
[1:57:10] Speaker 3: but he'd be an operation of his presence. The operation
[1:57:13] Speaker 3: of his presence is simply an operation.
[1:57:15] Speaker 1: Your presence can't move if it's already everywhere.
[1:57:20] Speaker 3: We believe in a real distinction between his energies, which
[1:57:24] Speaker 3: is how his energies are manifest This is what I'm arguing.
[1:57:27] Speaker 1: Energies, energies are manifestations. They are not his actual presence.
[1:57:34] Speaker 3: Okay, So if something in his yes, I'll give you.
[1:57:38] Speaker 1: I'll give you a very good example right in numbers, Dude,
[1:57:42] Speaker 1: Army twenty three and in numbers chapter five. If I
[1:57:44] Speaker 1: remember correctly, God specifically talks about his presence, says command
[1:57:49] Speaker 1: the Israelites to put out of the camp everyone who
[1:57:51] Speaker 1: has a defiling skin disease or a discharge, and everyone
[1:57:55] Speaker 1: who is uncleaned through contact with a corpse. You shall
[1:57:58] Speaker 1: put out, both male and female. Put them outside the camp.
[1:58:01] Speaker 1: You must not defile their camp where I dwell among them.
[1:58:05] Speaker 1: God's presence is in the camp and not outside the camp.
[1:58:11] Speaker 1: He says, put these guys outside the camp, because I'm
[1:58:15] Speaker 1: dwelling inside the camp. That's location, that's presence. It's not
[1:58:20] Speaker 1: a god of philosophy.
[1:58:23] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[1:58:23] Speaker 1: So yeah.
[1:58:24] Speaker 3: In the same way when he says I will be
[1:58:26] Speaker 3: amongst them in the Temple and Exodus, he's talking about
[1:58:28] Speaker 3: being amongst them. Right, we know himself that the glory
[1:58:32] Speaker 3: itself is identified as truly God.
[1:58:35] Speaker 5: And we go to Leviticus, even we see that this
[1:58:37] Speaker 5: goore itself is a tributy to God. Now, this golry
[1:58:40] Speaker 5: itself isn't separate from his entity. The gory itself is
[1:58:43] Speaker 5: his operation and his energy. And what is an energy
[1:58:45] Speaker 5: of himself is a manifestation I makes hisself known. So
[1:58:49] Speaker 5: the argument isn't that he himself and of his essence
[1:58:52] Speaker 5: is being present. It is an operation of himself which
[1:58:55] Speaker 5: is being manifest to the people, so God being with
[1:58:59] Speaker 5: them it is a ten portal sending that is uncreated,
[1:59:03] Speaker 5: So an uncreated attribute.
[1:59:04] Speaker 1: Being creative has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
[1:59:06] Speaker 1: We're talking about whether or not God has a presence
[1:59:08] Speaker 1: that is traveling, or whether or not he's omnipresent. If
[1:59:12] Speaker 1: he's omnipresent, he can't travel. If he's omnipresent, that whatever
[1:59:16] Speaker 1: is happening in Dude only twenty three and numbers chapter
[1:59:18] Speaker 1: five is happening everywhere where he is. Yeah.
[1:59:22] Speaker 3: Again, that's just again, that's just simply the presence of
[1:59:26] Speaker 3: something is how he may manifest.
[1:59:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, because he's not omnipresent. It's just definition. I don't
[1:59:35] Speaker 1: know why this is so hard for you.
[1:59:37] Speaker 3: You literally know you literally just you literally just told
[1:59:40] Speaker 3: me that, oh, don't go to philosophy, Bro's on the Bible.
[1:59:42] Speaker 3: But then you made memphisical claim that omni omni omnipresence,
[1:59:47] Speaker 3: all that stuff, it doesn't have anything to do with presents.
[1:59:50] Speaker 3: So you're making menephats. I didn't say that at all.
[1:59:52] Speaker 3: That's an omnipresence is a contradiction to a God that travels.
[1:59:58] Speaker 1: You can't travel, You can't have a a presence that
[2:00:01] Speaker 1: travels if you're already everywhere, it's just definitionally a contradiction.
[2:00:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the same way. A good example of this
[2:00:10] Speaker 3: would be that if there's a curtain that the sun
[2:00:13] Speaker 3: is always at the window. If I have a curtain
[2:00:15] Speaker 3: over it, it's there, but once I open the curtain,
[2:00:18] Speaker 3: it is appearing to me. So God is always there.
[2:00:21] Speaker 3: We're not making the claim he's he's always wearing present,
[2:00:25] Speaker 3: He's in and around everything.
[2:00:26] Speaker 1: Then how does he travel?
[2:00:29] Speaker 3: Because listen to my claim.
[2:00:30] Speaker 1: How do you travel from point to b if he's
[2:00:32] Speaker 1: already there?
[2:00:33] Speaker 3: Because because he has made manifest to the people the Israelites,
[2:00:37] Speaker 3: he's being known to them because of their personal because
[2:00:41] Speaker 3: God's personal.
[2:00:42] Speaker 1: Mediation with what's manifesting as.
[2:00:46] Speaker 3: He's manifesting right here. Is that the presence as uncritical glory,
[2:00:49] Speaker 3: the uncritical glory of God's glory. Yeah, the glory is
[2:00:54] Speaker 3: an attribute of basically totality. Yeah, glory itself is just
[2:01:00] Speaker 3: the just the description of God in of himself.
[2:01:02] Speaker 4: What it is like? What is it?
[2:01:05] Speaker 3: It is an uncreated attribute or energy? It's not energy
[2:01:09] Speaker 3: yet if it's no in our okay, if it's an
[2:01:11] Speaker 3: attributes it pertains to God eternally, so so the attribute
[2:01:14] Speaker 3: itself is twenty.
[2:01:16] Speaker 1: Philosophy has ruined your brain. Glory Glory. Glory is an adjective,
[2:01:21] Speaker 1: it's not a thing.
[2:01:24] Speaker 3: If if God is absolutely simple and a possessence, but
[2:01:27] Speaker 3: there's a distinction. So if there's a real distinction between
[2:01:30] Speaker 3: his attributes and his essence, then therefore we'd predicate this
[2:01:34] Speaker 3: to a temporal sending. A temporal sending would just be
[2:01:37] Speaker 3: by his uncreated uh uncreated effects. And then created effects
[2:01:41] Speaker 3: are which may manifest too creation.
[2:01:43] Speaker 1: No, all of it, All of his effects are created
[2:01:45] Speaker 1: by definition. The burning bush is a created effect. It
[2:01:48] Speaker 1: was there one moment and then not another moment. That
[2:01:51] Speaker 1: makes it a created effect. All of these energy arguments
[2:01:54] Speaker 1: are just created effects. That's God manifesting in one location,
[2:01:58] Speaker 1: but he's manifesting every time in a physical manifestation. But
[2:02:03] Speaker 1: he talks about traveling as though he himself his presence
[2:02:08] Speaker 1: can travel, which isn't true if in fact you're already there,
[2:02:12] Speaker 1: you're omnipresent. And another example Deuteronomy twenty three. You shall
[2:02:16] Speaker 1: have a designated area outside the camp to which you
[2:02:19] Speaker 1: shall go with your tools. You shall have a travel
[2:02:22] Speaker 1: When you relieve yourself outside, you shall dig a hole
[2:02:24] Speaker 1: with it and then cover your excrement. Because the Lord,
[2:02:27] Speaker 1: your God, travels along with your camp to save you
[2:02:31] Speaker 1: and to hand over your enemies to you. That's God's presence,
[2:02:37] Speaker 1: unless you think he traveling as a human being.
[2:02:40] Speaker 3: Hold on a second. If the God is eternal itself,
[2:02:42] Speaker 3: with that treats would be eternal. The creative affects themselves.
[2:02:46] Speaker 1: Eternal is temporal. We're talking about physical location.
[2:02:52] Speaker 3: Wait, eternal was temporal? Eternal is a temporal What are
[2:02:55] Speaker 3: you talking about.
[2:02:57] Speaker 1: Eternal is a temporal argument. We're talking about locational arguments.
[2:03:02] Speaker 1: God's presence, if it's everywhere, can't be in a physical
[2:03:06] Speaker 1: location in one spot.
[2:03:08] Speaker 3: No, you just made my point because I literally didn't.
[2:03:13] Speaker 2: Hold on.
[2:03:13] Speaker 1: Okay, here's I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. Anytime
[2:03:17] Speaker 1: you mentioned God's eternality, it's a different argument. An eternal
[2:03:22] Speaker 1: argument is an argument about time. That's that's what we're
[2:03:26] Speaker 1: talking about. We're not talking about time. We're talking about
[2:03:29] Speaker 1: location first. Because okay, his presence shall be with us.
[2:03:33] Speaker 1: That's literally just saying, let out with us. Because of
[2:03:35] Speaker 1: his manifestations. God is everywhere all at once. But he's
[2:03:39] Speaker 1: main shown and manifest to certain people. So he's being
[2:03:42] Speaker 1: made in manifest and shown to certain people because of
[2:03:46] Speaker 1: his presence. Through his presence, can't travel if it's everywhere,
[2:03:51] Speaker 1: that's why.
[2:03:52] Speaker 3: That's why is uncreated manifestations in God, such as his
[2:03:55] Speaker 3: own credit glory, which identified as himself.
[2:03:57] Speaker 1: God tells you that his presence is local lives, which
[2:04:00] Speaker 1: means it's not everywhere.
[2:04:05] Speaker 3: Yeah. I made the point that since this is talking
[2:04:08] Speaker 3: about an operation through his presence, this just means that
[2:04:12] Speaker 3: his meetings not in operations yet it's a manifestation, is
[2:04:16] Speaker 3: it not?
[2:04:16] Speaker 1: No, it's his presence.
[2:04:19] Speaker 3: Okay, so what is a presence.
[2:04:21] Speaker 1: So we'll we'll try this one more time. Okay, when
[2:04:25] Speaker 1: God says his presence is here, right, let's say his
[2:04:29] Speaker 1: presence is in the camp and his presence travels with
[2:04:34] Speaker 1: the camp. Is his presence everywhere or is it with
[2:04:38] Speaker 1: the camp?
[2:04:40] Speaker 3: If it's through his manifestation.
[2:04:42] Speaker 1: No, I didn't ask about manifestations. I said his presentation,
[2:04:46] Speaker 1: his presence, his presence, not his mediation. His presence the
[2:04:52] Speaker 1: mediation biath. He can't help himself. He just keeps going
[2:04:55] Speaker 1: back to the SOB argument. Listen, philosophy has has literally
[2:04:59] Speaker 1: broken your brain. You can't work with actual definitions anymore.
[2:05:03] Speaker 1: And you haven't. You haven't demonstrated a single prophecy fulfilled.
[2:05:08] Speaker 1: I think you've been up here. Let me see, he's
[2:05:10] Speaker 1: been up here in an hour now. We haven't had
[2:05:13] Speaker 1: a single prophecy even mentioned that was billed in Jesus.
[2:05:18] Speaker 3: And then your presence, and I'm explaining to you why.
[2:05:22] Speaker 1: And then your brain completely broke on basic definitions like presence.
[2:05:27] Speaker 1: So I think this is the end of the road.
[2:05:30] Speaker 1: Militant ortho. Just know that these conversations will never convert
[2:05:34] Speaker 1: a single person to your religion ever, which is why
[2:05:37] Speaker 1: the early church fathers said that pointing back to the
[2:05:41] Speaker 1: Bible and the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled and the miracles
[2:05:45] Speaker 1: is the better argument, not philosophy.
[2:05:47] Speaker 3: Just did you have any what fathers have you read?
[2:05:50] Speaker 1: Justin Martyr thought that the philosophy of Christianity was superior
[2:05:54] Speaker 1: to the philosophy of the Greeks. And he didn't even
[2:05:58] Speaker 1: make good philosophical arguments. He pointed back to the Bible
[2:06:01] Speaker 1: every time. If you ever want to convert people to
[2:06:03] Speaker 1: your faith, you got to stick to the book, Your
[2:06:05] Speaker 1: god of philosophy is nonsense.
[2:06:09] Speaker 3: But you made the claim you read the Okay.
[2:06:12] Speaker 4: Yeah he did so when he went to Genesis eighteen,
[2:06:16] Speaker 4: I really thought he was gonna. I didn't think he
[2:06:19] Speaker 4: was gonna. But he opened the door to like disprove
[2:06:22] Speaker 4: omniscients and omnipresence like in one once.
[2:06:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, he and he was desperate to go to Genesis
[2:06:28] Speaker 1: eighteen because he started the conversation dying to have a
[2:06:32] Speaker 1: debate about the trinity. As if that means anything.
[2:06:36] Speaker 4: Yeah, like you could tell he's a smart kid. Sure,
[2:06:41] Speaker 4: it's it's honestly a shame he's wasting his intelligence on this.
[2:06:46] Speaker 1: He's not dumb, he's just been his brain's been poisoned
[2:06:49] Speaker 1: by philosophy.
[2:06:51] Speaker 4: Yeah, and they do it to convince themselves, Like I'm convinced.
[2:06:54] Speaker 4: That's the one thing I know about the phil bros.
[2:06:56] Speaker 4: Is they only do it to convince themselves.
[2:06:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's actually amiliar say.
[2:07:00] Speaker 4: But they bought into this thing, realize how fuck it's
[2:07:03] Speaker 4: stupid it is, and now they have to make it
[2:07:05] Speaker 4: make sense. It's a sunk cost fallacy.
[2:07:08] Speaker 1: That's a million presented. That's all they're doing. All they're
[2:07:10] Speaker 1: doing is convincing themselves that they're not irrational actors. Matthew
[2:07:15] Speaker 1: alone quotes like twenty two prophecies. He literally could have
[2:07:18] Speaker 1: gone to the first chapter of Matthew and found, you know,
[2:07:22] Speaker 1: five different prophecies and said, look, these are what Jesus fulfilled.
[2:07:25] Speaker 1: And then he couldn't do it. He had to go
[2:07:27] Speaker 1: to all these like he wanted to go to prophecies
[2:07:32] Speaker 1: I knew I haven't talked about. That's what he wanted
[2:07:34] Speaker 1: to do. He wanted to go to the non typical
[2:07:36] Speaker 1: prophecies and find a new angle, assuming like I don't
[2:07:40] Speaker 1: know why he assumed, I haven't read all of Isaiah.
[2:07:42] Speaker 1: But let me grabbing some super chats and we'll get
[2:07:45] Speaker 1: our next guest in here.
[2:07:45] Speaker 3: Mack.
[2:07:45] Speaker 1: You're gonna hang out with me for a while. Absolutely
[2:07:48] Speaker 1: love it all right, SAMs A Bark, my friend. Great
[2:07:51] Speaker 1: to see you in the house, and I thank you
[2:07:52] Speaker 1: for the four ninety nine, says Christian vampires are definitely
[2:07:55] Speaker 1: conflicted with all of the blood drinking and crucifixes. Actually,
[2:08:00] Speaker 1: this is a good point because you would think they'd
[2:08:04] Speaker 1: be converting to Christianity to get it on this blood train.
[2:08:08] Speaker 1: But they got a real problem they don't want to
[2:08:10] Speaker 1: get stuck in the heart with that wood, and then
[2:08:13] Speaker 1: the holy water might present a problem too. Sometimes they
[2:08:15] Speaker 1: would dip the wood steaks in holy water, you know,
[2:08:18] Speaker 1: to take care of the vampires. So you're right, that's
[2:08:21] Speaker 1: it's a tough bargain. It's kind of like the raccoon
[2:08:23] Speaker 1: that knows there's a really good trash bin but also
[2:08:25] Speaker 1: knows there's a dog in the yard that could get it.
[2:08:27] Speaker 1: It's just it's a tough choice. Germs, my friend. Good
[2:08:31] Speaker 1: to see it, says top G is in the chat,
[2:08:33] Speaker 1: saying you couldn't address his points before. He says he's
[2:08:36] Speaker 1: in the guest box waiting to debate. He's marinated and
[2:08:39] Speaker 1: ready to cook. I don't know who top G is,
[2:08:41] Speaker 1: but I do see him in the guest box. Now
[2:08:44] Speaker 1: there are a bunch of people that came in before him,
[2:08:46] Speaker 1: so like like typical if he'll have to wait in
[2:08:48] Speaker 1: line like everybody else. But I'm sure top G will
[2:08:52] Speaker 1: cook me, just like everybody who came before him that
[2:08:54] Speaker 1: said they were gonna cook me. And born deconstructed, great name.
[2:08:58] Speaker 1: Thank you for the super chat, says I've never worshiped
[2:09:00] Speaker 1: anyone or anything in my life. But I'm making an
[2:09:03] Speaker 1: exception for Doug big w and Sharon praise b love
[2:09:08] Speaker 1: this dreams rock hard for Doug. Listen, Dug's rock hard
[2:09:10] Speaker 1: for you. What a delightful sediment to know that you
[2:09:14] Speaker 1: never believed in any deities. May the courts be with you,
[2:09:19] Speaker 1: my friend. And Hank, thank you for the six one six.
[2:09:22] Speaker 1: Hail Nero says, another reason phil Bros affect the monotone
[2:09:27] Speaker 1: is so they can claim high moral ground when you're
[2:09:30] Speaker 1: obnoxious as heck, and people react, praise Dougie. Actually this
[2:09:33] Speaker 1: is a really good point one yeah, one of like
[2:09:37] Speaker 1: a popular debate tactic. And I know it works because
[2:09:40] Speaker 1: when I do it sometimes, even by accident, I get
[2:09:43] Speaker 1: a lot of positive feedback on it. But the idea
[2:09:45] Speaker 1: that you could remain perfectly dead, calm while the other
[2:09:49] Speaker 1: person's like losing their mind, for a lot of people,
[2:09:51] Speaker 1: that's an automatic win. And so I agree that that
[2:09:55] Speaker 1: is one benefit of being monotone and boring in the
[2:09:58] Speaker 1: Philbro discussions. But Mike, thank you for the ten now.
[2:10:02] Speaker 1: Canadian Chat says they believe in an illogical, contradictory, unscientific, anachronistic,
[2:10:07] Speaker 1: immoral book of magic merely convincing yourself of a few
[2:10:11] Speaker 1: premisses you find intuitive is an appealing standard they can meet.
[2:10:15] Speaker 1: So this is a good point. The thing that that
[2:10:17] Speaker 1: phil bros don't want to do is address the text.
[2:10:19] Speaker 1: And I had I had to pull this guy's teeth
[2:10:21] Speaker 1: out to get him to even come to the text.
[2:10:24] Speaker 1: And it wasn't pretty when he did, but he at
[2:10:26] Speaker 1: least tried, like he did at least give it a shot.
[2:10:30] Speaker 4: I yeah, like you asked him, like, do you feel
[2:10:33] Speaker 4: good about doing this? It's like so obvious, Like to
[2:10:37] Speaker 4: who are you trying to convince with this whole presence
[2:10:40] Speaker 4: is not presence.
[2:10:42] Speaker 1: It's crazy to me that you're going to tell me
[2:10:45] Speaker 1: God is omnipresent, but his he also has a localized presence. Ridiculous.
[2:10:52] Speaker 1: Derek says, Jews had a covenant with Moses, four hundred
[2:10:56] Speaker 1: years later, Jews had a new covenant with David, yet
[2:11:00] Speaker 1: they upheld the old laws. Christians, stop using this excuse.
[2:11:03] Speaker 1: This is actually a really good point because even the
[2:11:09] Speaker 1: you know, the Breek Kodesh, the New Covenant in the
[2:11:13] Speaker 1: Old Testament could literally be just translated as the renewed Covenant, right,
[2:11:18] Speaker 1: It's just basically the same verb, So like, there's certainly
[2:11:21] Speaker 1: this idea that, yeah, there's going to be a new
[2:11:25] Speaker 1: thing happening. We see nothing, nothing in the prophetic literature
[2:11:29] Speaker 1: that suggests part of the new thing is no laws
[2:11:32] Speaker 1: of Moses. That would be a complete contradictory of the
[2:11:35] Speaker 1: prophets and the Torah. Jennifer says, is there a Hebrew
[2:11:39] Speaker 1: word for eternal? I mean kind of. So this is difficult.
[2:11:45] Speaker 1: So there's there's two phrases that gets used, and the
[2:11:50] Speaker 1: most common is leylam means you know, an indefinite time period.
[2:11:55] Speaker 1: It doesn't always mean forever. There's another word in Hebrew
[2:12:01] Speaker 1: that means perpetually, meaning you just do this continually, indefinitely.
[2:12:05] Speaker 1: And it's not coming to my mind right now, but
[2:12:08] Speaker 1: it gets used in Leviticus sixteen. And so you could
[2:12:14] Speaker 1: make an argument that there's not a great word in
[2:12:17] Speaker 1: Hebrew to refer to forever. But there are ways of
[2:12:22] Speaker 1: adding on to the words where you intensify it. So
[2:12:27] Speaker 1: like if you go if you know a little bit
[2:12:29] Speaker 1: about verbal intensifying using infinitives in Hebrew, there are ways
[2:12:32] Speaker 1: to format sentences where you use words that are indefinite
[2:12:36] Speaker 1: but do mean literally forever. I don't know if we
[2:12:40] Speaker 1: have time to get into that, because we have to
[2:12:42] Speaker 1: keep debates going. But aon, as you've brought up, I
[2:12:46] Speaker 1: thought it was for a aon in Greek is a
[2:12:49] Speaker 1: little bit like layelam, where sometimes it means forever and
[2:12:52] Speaker 1: sometimes it just means an indefinite time period. But there
[2:12:59] Speaker 1: are are a good case. Hit me a message, Jennifer
[2:13:02] Speaker 1: on the discord, and I'll show you some examples of
[2:13:06] Speaker 1: how leo lam and one other Hebrew word, how it
[2:13:10] Speaker 1: can be conjugated to literally mean forever rather than an
[2:13:14] Speaker 1: indefinite time period. We can make that happen. There's another
[2:13:17] Speaker 1: way that they phrase it too, where they'll say all
[2:13:21] Speaker 1: of your days meaning every day that belongs to you,
[2:13:27] Speaker 1: meaning all of them, right, And if if it's referring
[2:13:30] Speaker 1: to the planet, then it's just until there's no planet, right,
[2:13:33] Speaker 1: So if you believe the planet is going to be
[2:13:35] Speaker 1: here forever, then you can translate that is forever. But yeah,
[2:13:39] Speaker 1: there's a lot there, six them says. So we have
[2:13:41] Speaker 1: someone here in YouTube chat saying you're afraid of him
[2:13:46] Speaker 1: and won't let him or her on little old top
[2:13:49] Speaker 1: G call him or her out. I've ever been heard
[2:13:51] Speaker 1: of top G I've got one two three six one
[2:13:56] Speaker 1: two three, about seven or eight people waiting to get in,
[2:14:00] Speaker 1: So I don't know why he expected I was going
[2:14:02] Speaker 1: to let him in while I was talking to somebody else.
[2:14:04] Speaker 1: That's he's obviously just a jackass in the comments, crying
[2:14:08] Speaker 1: because he's only got a half hour to be here
[2:14:10] Speaker 1: and he wants me to take him next.
[2:14:12] Speaker 4: Isn't that what the in cells call agrew Tate. I'm
[2:14:17] Speaker 4: pretty sure they call him. I'm dead serious, like they
[2:14:19] Speaker 4: call him top g. I'm pretty sure that's like that
[2:14:21] Speaker 4: could be red flag. That's like a pile of red flags.
[2:14:25] Speaker 1: There's a lot of red flags. Actually, yeah, well I'll
[2:14:29] Speaker 1: read some super jets. We'll get our next guest in here.
[2:14:31] Speaker 1: Hard work, dig the name, and thank you for the
[2:14:34] Speaker 1: super jet, says Doug. Damn it. Why is it always
[2:14:37] Speaker 1: the atheist responsibility to educate these ignorant Christians about the Bible,
[2:14:41] Speaker 1: let alone truth and morals. It's it's because they've been brainwashed, right,
[2:14:48] Speaker 1: and like we're here to unbrace brainwash them, Like we're
[2:14:51] Speaker 1: providing an unbrainwash service, if that makes sense. And Hank says,
[2:14:57] Speaker 1: I call priests up. Used god sales man p supers,
[2:15:02] Speaker 1: because all they do is obscure conversations with phil fog
[2:15:06] Speaker 1: philo fog. Actually like that. There's a good word for
[2:15:10] Speaker 1: this that we used to have called pettifogging. Are you
[2:15:13] Speaker 1: fami with that one?
[2:15:14] Speaker 4: Macluster, Yeah, I've heard it. I couldn't tell you what
[2:15:19] Speaker 4: it means, like off.
[2:15:19] Speaker 1: The rip petty fogging. I've heard that is when you
[2:15:23] Speaker 1: bog down a conversation with really dumb, semantic, petty ideas,
[2:15:31] Speaker 1: like defining every single little word, even words you know
[2:15:34] Speaker 1: right where you're You're basically just trying to obscure and
[2:15:38] Speaker 1: abstract yourself from the actual argument. It's called petti fogging.
[2:15:42] Speaker 1: It's a really good word. And the philo fog is
[2:15:46] Speaker 1: an perfect example of pedofogging, pedophogging, petty fogging. We should
[2:15:51] Speaker 1: call it philo fogging. That's what we should call it.
[2:15:55] Speaker 4: So I had a word occurred to me inspired by
[2:15:59] Speaker 4: the two callers that I I've heard so far, which
[2:16:00] Speaker 4: would be orthodox.
[2:16:06] Speaker 1: I like orthodoric. Actually that's a good one. Victor, thank
[2:16:14] Speaker 1: you for supporting the cause. I appreciate the five dollars
[2:16:16] Speaker 1: super thanks. And also top G. Another guy or Burns
[2:16:21] Speaker 1: is talking about top G again, says top G. Match me, Yeah,
[2:16:26] Speaker 1: top G. If you really want in, go ahead and
[2:16:28] Speaker 1: start matching some super chats. Let us know. Josh Barbara
[2:16:31] Speaker 1: with a five dollars says, I'm getting so sick of
[2:16:33] Speaker 1: these clowns claiming it's a metaphor or that's meant literal.
[2:16:37] Speaker 1: How do we determine this special pleading faith bullshit? Yeah,
[2:16:40] Speaker 1: once we get to the point where, like when we
[2:16:42] Speaker 1: don't like what it says, now it's a metaphor. I
[2:16:44] Speaker 1: could just do that with everything that the filmbros doing
[2:16:47] Speaker 1: can say. No, that's a metaphor. Jesus died, that's a metaphor.
[2:16:50] Speaker 1: Abraham visited by the angels. No, that's a metaphor. Like
[2:16:53] Speaker 1: it's just where do you stop it? It's a dumb
[2:16:55] Speaker 1: gray area. Jennifer coming in again, Thank you so much, friend.
[2:16:59] Speaker 1: It says God generous genocidal mercies. His sulfur breath is
[2:17:05] Speaker 1: an attribute as in Isaiah. That's a good one. Actually,
[2:17:08] Speaker 1: God in Isaiah self describes same as l O F
[2:17:13] Speaker 1: in revelation Lord of flies? Is that what that means?
[2:17:16] Speaker 1: Lord of what's lord of flies meaning? Or l F mean?
[2:17:22] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[2:17:22] Speaker 4: I don't know, that's uh as described as the LF
[2:17:27] Speaker 4: I want.
[2:17:27] Speaker 1: To say, Lord, anyways, thank you, Jennifer, thank you for
[2:17:30] Speaker 1: the super and Josh says, small energy. Phil bros give
[2:17:37] Speaker 1: off a lot of smallness energy.
[2:17:38] Speaker 4: Actually is is this was driving the chat absolutely insane.
[2:17:44] Speaker 1: But it certainly depends on what the meaning of is is.
[2:17:47] Speaker 1: So TM, thank you for the ten that iar supertest says.
[2:17:50] Speaker 1: Is it possible that Christians are so willing to degrade
[2:17:52] Speaker 1: the integrity of their intellect because they already feel degraded
[2:17:55] Speaker 1: by the moronic idea of original sin? Anyways, so TM,
[2:17:59] Speaker 1: this is not a bad thought like that, once you've
[2:18:03] Speaker 1: already bought into magic and talking donkeys, like the bars
[2:18:07] Speaker 1: already pretty low, like they're they're willing to lower their
[2:18:10] Speaker 1: mental standards pretty damn low to stay in it. And
[2:18:13] Speaker 1: they don't. They don't have to. They don't have to
[2:18:18] Speaker 1: provide an argument that is rational to everyone. They just
[2:18:22] Speaker 1: have to provide a argument that's rational to them and
[2:18:26] Speaker 1: the low bar bills among them. That's all Center Bark says.
[2:18:29] Speaker 1: Look at the isn't it? Look at the isn'tess? I
[2:18:32] Speaker 1: know I couldn't. The business was too much. I didn't
[2:18:34] Speaker 1: want to engage with it. Rez thank you so much
[2:18:39] Speaker 1: for the twenty hours Australian chat. He says, that was
[2:18:42] Speaker 1: Philbro's sidekick, Phil Kick Phil Kid, just as boring and
[2:18:47] Speaker 1: somehow more annoying. Actually, you're right, he was more annoying
[2:18:50] Speaker 1: than your typical Philbro. But he was young. You know
[2:18:53] Speaker 1: I was annoying when I was young. I'm sure of it.
[2:18:55] Speaker 1: And Penelope says, sitting here at work listening to you
[2:18:57] Speaker 1: Friday is usually my day for throwing cash your way,
[2:19:00] Speaker 1: but you deserve some extra love. Hope you get rich.
[2:19:03] Speaker 1: Battling theis rockhard for Dougle Penelope, thank you so much
[2:19:06] Speaker 1: for doubling up on this stream. We really appreciate it.
[2:19:09] Speaker 1: Your support makes the stream.
[2:19:10] Speaker 3: What it is.
[2:19:11] Speaker 1: Friends. Without you, guys, I'm nobody, I mean, I'm nothing,
[2:19:14] Speaker 1: and Jennifer's is like a fire up.
[2:19:17] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
[2:19:19] Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I should have captured that one from
[2:19:21] Speaker 1: Love Relation twenty one. I apologize. That's my fault, A Doug,
[2:19:27] Speaker 1: I had a memory lapse. A Doug didn't give me
[2:19:29] Speaker 1: the prophecy Lemmy with a twenty dollars supertest says, here
[2:19:32] Speaker 1: to spread the good word of our Lord Spanky Hey,
[2:19:35] Speaker 1: I'm a Spanky believer too, and on his true Prophet
[2:19:38] Speaker 1: Planet Peterson. Listen, Spanky and Doug are friends. They don't compete,
[2:19:42] Speaker 1: they're both, they're they're most they're both polytheistics. So big
[2:19:47] Speaker 1: w for being a prophet of Spanky. Totally here for it.
[2:19:50] Speaker 1: And Vera says, hey, could you suggest books or articles
[2:19:53] Speaker 1: to research on Crusades, inquisition genocides by Christians. I've read
[2:19:57] Speaker 1: only about brutal go positions. There's actually a couple of
[2:20:01] Speaker 1: books on the inquisitions and what happened in a medieval period.
[2:20:07] Speaker 1: I would read The Martyr's Mirror, and I would go
[2:20:10] Speaker 1: to the Notre Dame Inquisition Archive and read the first
[2:20:13] Speaker 1: hand testimonies there. Some of them are in Latin, you'll
[2:20:18] Speaker 1: have to translate them, but they're awesome. So the Notre
[2:20:21] Speaker 1: Dame Inquisition Library is amazing. Also, get the Martyr's Mirror.
[2:20:26] Speaker 1: It goes by the original title was called The Bloody Theater,
[2:20:29] Speaker 1: but it's awesome, full of first hand accounts of what
[2:20:32] Speaker 1: was happening at the time period. As for books on
[2:20:34] Speaker 1: the Crusade, there's a great book called God's War. Actually,
[2:20:45] Speaker 1: actually don't know if I have it with me. In
[2:20:47] Speaker 1: this room. It might be in my other room. God's
[2:20:54] Speaker 1: War by Christopher Tayreman. I'll show you a picture of
[2:20:57] Speaker 1: it so you know what to look for. As far
[2:21:00] Speaker 1: as I've come on the topic of the Crusades, this
[2:21:06] Speaker 1: is the most thorough book I've ever come on the topic.
[2:21:09] Speaker 1: I've never seen a book more thorough, more full of
[2:21:13] Speaker 1: sources than this book. I've read some books on it,
[2:21:16] Speaker 1: but this one takes the cake. So give me a
[2:21:19] Speaker 1: second to clear the screen here vera. So it's God's War,
[2:21:27] Speaker 1: a new history of the Crusades, and it is a
[2:21:30] Speaker 1: beefy volume. You'll really enjoy it. It's really really good.
[2:21:34] Speaker 1: Let's see how many pages was of this one? One
[2:21:37] Speaker 1: thousand and forty pages. It's a thousand pages of history
[2:21:41] Speaker 1: on the Crusades. It's phenomenal. I don't know if there's
[2:21:45] Speaker 1: a better book on it. If there is, I've never
[2:21:47] Speaker 1: heard of it. But Unexpected says is Jesus describing reincarnation
[2:21:52] Speaker 1: in Matthew seventeen eleven through thirteen. My Christian relative went
[2:21:55] Speaker 1: nuts when I said this. I've never known Jesus to
[2:21:59] Speaker 1: believe in re incarnation. My understanding is that he believes
[2:22:04] Speaker 1: like everybody else that there's gonna be a new heaven
[2:22:06] Speaker 1: and new earth, and the Righteous are gonna be resurrected,
[2:22:09] Speaker 1: and they're gonna live forever in the new Heaven and
[2:22:11] Speaker 1: the new Earth. But let me read John seventeen eleven
[2:22:15] Speaker 1: and thirteen for everybody, and we'll we'll address it real quick.
[2:22:22] Speaker 1: So he says, he replied, Elijah is indeed coming and
[2:22:26] Speaker 1: will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah
[2:22:28] Speaker 1: has already come. And they did not recognize him, but
[2:22:31] Speaker 1: they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the
[2:22:34] Speaker 1: Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands.
[2:22:36] Speaker 1: And then disciples understood what he was speaking to them
[2:22:38] Speaker 1: about John the Baptist. Okay, so John the Baptist coming
[2:22:41] Speaker 1: multiple times is not a reincarnation. It's a multiple manifestation
[2:22:46] Speaker 1: of specifically divined entities. So we had this thing in
[2:22:50] Speaker 1: Jesus' time period that's most pronounced. You'll find it in
[2:22:55] Speaker 1: like the Dead Sea scrolls and like the Milchizedec lore,
[2:22:59] Speaker 1: where we've got the these divine entities that will compare
[2:23:03] Speaker 1: them to angels that at certain points in history will
[2:23:07] Speaker 1: manifest on the earth and then do a whole bunch
[2:23:09] Speaker 1: of really important shit, and then they'll die and go
[2:23:11] Speaker 1: back to heaven, or they'll get taken up into heaven
[2:23:13] Speaker 1: like Elijah did. He was taken up alive in heaven. Right.
[2:23:18] Speaker 1: So that being said, when we talk about these people
[2:23:20] Speaker 1: that are manifesting on the earth, like Melchizedek and Elijah,
[2:23:25] Speaker 1: typically it's believed that they haven't died. They went up alive,
[2:23:29] Speaker 1: just like ch Enoch went up alive. Now he's Metatron
[2:23:32] Speaker 1: and then they're gonna come back. Right. Jesus riffs on
[2:23:35] Speaker 1: this a little bit because he has to believe that
[2:23:38] Speaker 1: John the Baptist was the Elijah, but they killed him.
[2:23:40] Speaker 1: So how is so the only way to square that
[2:23:42] Speaker 1: peg is to go with this newer idea that was
[2:23:47] Speaker 1: developed during the Intertestamental period, like through the Enochic literature
[2:23:51] Speaker 1: and things like that, that we've got these eternal figures
[2:23:53] Speaker 1: that manifest at multiple points in time. So I hope
[2:23:56] Speaker 1: that helps. Walking Dad says, Greeting's friends all held dog,
[2:23:59] Speaker 1: destroyer of scissors, sedimentary pleasantings on you all. Well, thank you,
[2:24:04] Speaker 1: So that's a really good one. You're right, Doug always
[2:24:07] Speaker 1: beats scissors, and paper has nothing on Doug. Paper technically
[2:24:11] Speaker 1: is made from the earth, which is Doug, which means
[2:24:14] Speaker 1: uh Doug, and paper always ended with a draw. In fact,
[2:24:17] Speaker 1: paper is just a blanket for Doug. It Doug just
[2:24:19] Speaker 1: takes a nap when he's covered with paper. He's not
[2:24:21] Speaker 1: actually defeated. And Iggy says Phil Bro, I activate my
[2:24:24] Speaker 1: trap card, spiritual. This is actually a really good point.
[2:24:28] Speaker 1: We've heard this a lot with Philbros. Where we have
[2:24:31] Speaker 1: this general idea of you have to use a lot
[2:24:36] Speaker 1: of words with vague or no meaning at all, right
[2:24:39] Speaker 1: in order to get past the actual arguments being had.
[2:24:44] Speaker 1: As long as you can use enough vague words that
[2:24:46] Speaker 1: sounds sophisticated, they won't push you on it. Yeah, let
[2:24:51] Speaker 1: me grab just a couple more out, like five more
[2:24:53] Speaker 1: super chats friends. Mike says, feeling so spiritual tonight tonight,
[2:24:57] Speaker 1: Well that's because you resurrected just like Nero with this
[2:25:00] Speaker 1: six one six Hail Nero, Hail the Dark Lord. And
[2:25:02] Speaker 1: Aaron says, imagine being that overconfident while getting just dog
[2:25:06] Speaker 1: walked through it. I guess it's hard to read a
[2:25:08] Speaker 1: book when words just don't mean what they mean. They
[2:25:11] Speaker 1: listen every single time, every single time we talk to
[2:25:15] Speaker 1: a believer, it's always words cannot mean what words mean,
[2:25:20] Speaker 1: and they come by it honestly because the New Testament
[2:25:23] Speaker 1: does it. To the Old Testament. The New Testament says,
[2:25:25] Speaker 1: none of these words mean what they actually mean, so
[2:25:27] Speaker 1: they're just continuing the tradition. And Phil says, Godric the grafted. Wait,
[2:25:33] Speaker 1: who's that? Who's Godrick?
[2:25:36] Speaker 4: I don't know.
[2:25:37] Speaker 1: I'm afraid I don't know. Sorry, Phil, But thank you
[2:25:39] Speaker 1: for the superchat. Also Jason's back. Thank you so much
[2:25:42] Speaker 1: Jason for sending out five Deconstruction Zone memberships, big big
[2:25:46] Speaker 1: w for helping to build the community, my friend, I
[2:25:48] Speaker 1: really appreciate that. And last one from Anti Antie, thank
[2:25:51] Speaker 1: you so much for the nineteen ninety nine superchat. I
[2:25:54] Speaker 1: really are super thanks. I really appreciate that. And we're
[2:25:58] Speaker 1: going to get the next guest in here. I got
[2:25:59] Speaker 1: a couple more we're super chats, but we'll save them
[2:26:01] Speaker 1: for Graft. The next guest. Mac Luster's been with us
[2:26:04] Speaker 1: and we're we're chomping at the bit now to get
[2:26:07] Speaker 1: a guest in the box. So we're gonna grab.
[2:26:10] Speaker 4: It's a video game character, what Chad I just said?
[2:26:14] Speaker 4: I look it up. It's from elden Ring.
[2:26:16] Speaker 1: I'm so not the guys. I know I'm not a boomer,
[2:26:20] Speaker 1: but I'm so old. I don't know any of these
[2:26:23] Speaker 1: like video game references or like movie references, like the
[2:26:28] Speaker 1: only Star Wars characters. I know we're from the original
[2:26:30] Speaker 1: three movies. Sorry, I'm just not up to speed with
[2:26:36] Speaker 1: this kind of stuff.
[2:26:38] Speaker 4: I mean, I don't get the comment. But hey, you
[2:26:43] Speaker 4: know what they gave you money.
[2:26:45] Speaker 1: I think they were riffing on the nonsense of the
[2:26:48] Speaker 1: non Israelds being grafted in that the last caller we're
[2:26:50] Speaker 1: talking about.
[2:26:52] Speaker 4: But yeah, definitely that. But I okay, it seems like
[2:26:55] Speaker 4: maybe word association.
[2:26:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's what we have. I think that happened.
[2:26:59] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll pay five more bucks and explain it. Yeah,
[2:27:05] Speaker 4: you gotta work. You gotta constantly work.
[2:27:07] Speaker 1: You know, it's forty good cause it's pretty good cause.
[2:27:09] Speaker 1: All right, well, Romina might not actually be with us anymore,
[2:27:12] Speaker 1: so we're gonna.
[2:27:13] Speaker 5: Go with for for art.
[2:27:17] Speaker 4: Yeah, a new gift goal while you're at it.
[2:27:19] Speaker 1: Oh, even though I had a gift goal, they changed
[2:27:22] Speaker 1: the layout of TikTok Studio and they don't show my
[2:27:26] Speaker 1: gift goal anymore. At the bottom of the screen. So
[2:27:29] Speaker 1: if I even had a gift goal, I don't even
[2:27:31] Speaker 1: know what it was. I can definitely update it good.
[2:27:36] Speaker 1: But guys, thank you so much for all the gifts
[2:27:37] Speaker 1: on TikTok. I see twisted has given. I apologize my
[2:27:43] Speaker 1: I've got so much happening right now on my screens.
[2:27:47] Speaker 1: It was one Rose, oh, one Rose, thank you so much.
[2:27:50] Speaker 4: Out of the park.
[2:27:51] Speaker 1: I nailed it, guys. I'll have to figure out how
[2:27:55] Speaker 1: the new TikTok studio actually works. But thank you so
[2:27:57] Speaker 1: much friends for everyone gifting and everyone subscribed on TikTok.
[2:28:01] Speaker 1: You guys are the You're the OG deconstruction audience. We
[2:28:05] Speaker 1: would love and support you. I wouldn't have been here
[2:28:07] Speaker 1: without you, for sure. Is it fear art for art?
[2:28:11] Speaker 1: Is that the way I say that for art? For art?
[2:28:21] Speaker 1: I mean you're up here. I assume you've hit accept
[2:28:23] Speaker 1: and all that. I can hear you. By the way
[2:28:27] Speaker 1: we can hear you moving back there.
[2:28:31] Speaker 4: Well, like you don't even have to hit accept, right,
[2:28:33] Speaker 4: It's just it will like give a countdown. Yeah, like
[2:28:36] Speaker 4: could just totally be an accident. Yeah, that is the case.
[2:28:42] Speaker 1: Steampunk's in the qube, but she's one of She's one
[2:28:44] Speaker 1: of us steampunk. Did you tap tap tap your way
[2:28:47] Speaker 1: into the guest box. I think she's in your backs
[2:28:53] Speaker 1: and she's one of our friends. She didn't mean to
[2:28:57] Speaker 1: be up here. She's she's not a believer, all right. Well,
[2:29:00] Speaker 1: I ran out of guests on to, I mean, other
[2:29:04] Speaker 1: than Lenny, but I've talked to Lenny one hundred times
[2:29:05] Speaker 1: and he's a friend of ours. I want to bring
[2:29:07] Speaker 1: in some good opposition, so I'm going to grab I
[2:29:11] Speaker 1: think Joe was next on the YouTube cue, So I'm
[2:29:14] Speaker 1: going to grab Joe and bring Joe in. Welcome in, Joe.
[2:29:22] Speaker 5: Hey, how are you doing?
[2:29:24] Speaker 1: Man? Not too bad? And welcome back? Is your second
[2:29:26] Speaker 1: time or third time?
[2:29:27] Speaker 2: Now?
[2:29:29] Speaker 3: That's right?
[2:29:29] Speaker 5: Yeah? That second time? Yep?
[2:29:31] Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I remember you've been here at least once.
[2:29:33] Speaker 1: I recognize your face. Yeah, well, welcome back. What's on
[2:29:37] Speaker 1: your mind?
[2:29:39] Speaker 5: Appreciate it?
[2:29:40] Speaker 3: Yeah?
[2:29:42] Speaker 5: Well, I I wanted to thank you for the sound
[2:29:46] Speaker 5: trouncing you gave me the last time I got on.
[2:29:49] Speaker 1: Sorry about that.
[2:29:52] Speaker 5: No, No, you were very you were very kind. I
[2:29:55] Speaker 5: was a little surprised in the your comments, and I
[2:30:00] Speaker 5: guess the people you're you're bros there in the studio
[2:30:04] Speaker 5: or whatever. I was kind of surprised that the things
[2:30:06] Speaker 5: that y'all said after I got off of chat. It
[2:30:11] Speaker 5: was kind of like when Jesus said to the Pharisees,
[2:30:13] Speaker 5: it doesn't really matter how we address you, You're going
[2:30:17] Speaker 5: to either you're either going to say we're out of
[2:30:20] Speaker 5: our minds or you're going to say we're drunk or whatever.
[2:30:23] Speaker 5: I was surprised when you said that me blessing you
[2:30:27] Speaker 5: and wishing that you would have everlasting life was like
[2:30:30] Speaker 5: me peeing on a fire hydrant as a dog marking
[2:30:34] Speaker 5: my territory.
[2:30:34] Speaker 2: That was.
[2:30:35] Speaker 5: That was kind of odd. So I'm not sure what
[2:30:37] Speaker 5: a what a believer in Christ could say to you
[2:30:41] Speaker 5: that would be acceptable. I'm sure that if I started
[2:30:43] Speaker 5: to curse at you or swear, you would say, oh,
[2:30:45] Speaker 5: that's there's a horrible Christian for you.
[2:30:47] Speaker 1: If we had a conversation, at the end of the conversation,
[2:30:52] Speaker 1: I said, well, I'll play this. I'll pray to Satan
[2:30:55] Speaker 1: that you'll come to know the truth. Don't you see
[2:30:58] Speaker 1: how that's the backwards insult?
[2:31:03] Speaker 4: See?
[2:31:03] Speaker 5: No, I would just say that was that's see. But
[2:31:06] Speaker 5: I don't think you bla actually believe in Satan. You
[2:31:09] Speaker 5: know that I actually believe that there is a God,
[2:31:12] Speaker 5: and there is a heaven and a Hell, and I
[2:31:14] Speaker 5: genuinely believe that that I'm going to heaven, and I
[2:31:16] Speaker 5: genuinely want you to go to heaven.
[2:31:18] Speaker 1: But when you say that you're going to pray for somebody,
[2:31:22] Speaker 1: when you say you're going to pray for somebody, what
[2:31:24] Speaker 1: you're doing is on the way out, you're saying you're wrong. Goodbye.
[2:31:28] Speaker 1: That's what you're saying. It's it's just a backwards way
[2:31:31] Speaker 1: of saying it. You're saying, I secretly know the truth,
[2:31:34] Speaker 1: and I'm going to pray that God will reveal it
[2:31:36] Speaker 1: to you, even though you know I didn't, even though
[2:31:41] Speaker 1: you couldn't demonstrate it to say anything about like you're
[2:31:43] Speaker 1: saying that.
[2:31:43] Speaker 5: I don't have a perfect memory of the conversation, but
[2:31:48] Speaker 5: I remember saying I want you to be with me
[2:31:50] Speaker 5: in heaven and that I will pray to that end.
[2:31:54] Speaker 5: And so there was nothing backwards or vindictive or uh,
[2:32:01] Speaker 5: condescending in that. I just I just genuinely want you
[2:32:03] Speaker 5: to be in the best place in the whole universe,
[2:32:07] Speaker 5: and right now I think you're not headed towards there.
[2:32:11] Speaker 5: I think, at at best, you're headed towards a grave
[2:32:14] Speaker 5: full of worms. You know, I'm assuming that's what you
[2:32:18] Speaker 5: believe happens to you. You're just gonna be eaten.
[2:32:20] Speaker 1: Up by worms, yeah, both of us.
[2:32:24] Speaker 5: Yeah, so at best, that's what's gonna happen to you
[2:32:26] Speaker 5: in your mind. And I want way better than that
[2:32:30] Speaker 5: for you.
[2:32:30] Speaker 1: Right, And you also wanted to pass anyway, I didn't
[2:32:33] Speaker 1: actually call your position huh.
[2:32:39] Speaker 5: Wow, that's aggressive.
[2:32:41] Speaker 1: No passive aggressive. You want to passive aggressively assert your position.
[2:32:46] Speaker 5: Oh, I didn't hear the passive Okay, yeah, okay, if
[2:32:51] Speaker 5: that's if that's what you think it was, I'll I'll
[2:32:55] Speaker 5: let you be the interpreter. I know, I know what
[2:32:58] Speaker 5: my thoughts were. But anyway, I wanted to talk to
[2:33:01] Speaker 5: you more about Isaiah fifty three, sure, which you you
[2:33:06] Speaker 5: led me uh down an explanation of that.
[2:33:09] Speaker 1: Is there a reason why this is the only prophecies
[2:33:11] Speaker 1: Christians know about?
[2:33:15] Speaker 5: Well, it's very It's definitely the biggest, most full prophecy
[2:33:22] Speaker 5: about Christ. It's a prophecy that before the coming of Christ,
[2:33:25] Speaker 5: the Jewish rabbis said was a prophetic, it was a
[2:33:30] Speaker 5: Messianic prophecy. They changed their commentaries after Christ.
[2:33:33] Speaker 1: Some of them, some of them, some of them disagreed.
[2:33:38] Speaker 5: Well, well, many of them. I believe, even Rashi. One
[2:33:43] Speaker 5: of their greatest commentaries is medieval.
[2:33:47] Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm sorry, not Rashi. I apologize my bad.
[2:33:50] Speaker 1: Go ahead, I'm listening my brain.
[2:33:53] Speaker 5: I believe.
[2:33:55] Speaker 1: My brain farted.
[2:33:57] Speaker 5: Yeah, you're fine. No, I'm pretty sure that Rashi mentions
[2:34:01] Speaker 5: Isaiah fifty three as being a Messianic prophecy, and uh, anyway, no, no, no.
[2:34:08] Speaker 1: He was medieval. He died in eleven o five. Okay, well,
[2:34:14] Speaker 1: what do I care of the hundreds have to say?
[2:34:19] Speaker 5: Yeah, well, then that doesn't make sense. I mean, that's
[2:34:22] Speaker 5: certainly he certainly wouldn't believe it was Messianic.
[2:34:27] Speaker 1: No, he doesn't believe it's about Jesus.
[2:34:31] Speaker 5: Right, Oh for sure?
[2:34:32] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[2:34:33] Speaker 5: Yeah, well, well my mistake. But yeah, I just want
[2:34:36] Speaker 5: to talk with you about what I found out about
[2:34:38] Speaker 5: Isaiah and the interpretation of servant and you you led
[2:34:43] Speaker 5: me through several passages. I won't necessarily read as many
[2:34:47] Speaker 5: as you did. We can if you want, but.
[2:34:51] Speaker 1: You want to go through isa fifty three and see
[2:34:53] Speaker 1: all the examples where you don't understand how it couldn't
[2:34:55] Speaker 1: be about Jesus because it sounds so similar to Jesus.
[2:34:58] Speaker 5: Right, Well, I want to look at the structure. So
[2:35:02] Speaker 5: you read a bunch of verses for me leading up
[2:35:04] Speaker 5: to it to help to show me your perspective on
[2:35:08] Speaker 5: who the servant of the Lord was. And if I'm
[2:35:13] Speaker 5: not mistaken, your argument was that the servant of the
[2:35:15] Speaker 5: Lord was talking about the Righteous Remnant of Israel. Am
[2:35:19] Speaker 5: I remembering that correctly?
[2:35:20] Speaker 1: I think there are two servants in Isaiah, the prophet
[2:35:23] Speaker 1: himself which are often called servants like see Amos chapter three,
[2:35:29] Speaker 1: and then also the righteous Remnant of Israel.
[2:35:33] Speaker 5: Okay, all right, So in Isaiah forty one, so you
[2:35:42] Speaker 5: may you probably already know this, but all the way up,
[2:35:45] Speaker 5: starting in chapter twenty, it starts giving different people who
[2:35:49] Speaker 5: are the servant of the Lord, everyone from Isaiah himself
[2:35:54] Speaker 5: to Israel. But then and it goes it starts going
[2:35:59] Speaker 5: back and fourth in Isaiah in the forties, Isaiah forty
[2:36:04] Speaker 5: one to nine, that's probably Israel. Isaiah forty two to one,
[2:36:10] Speaker 5: that's an individual. It doesn't make it plain who, but
[2:36:16] Speaker 5: it's an individual. Cyrus, I think nineteen is also an individual.
[2:36:21] Speaker 1: So Cyrus was the king that God took by the hand,
[2:36:26] Speaker 1: says in the just the prior paragraph. Hold on, let
[2:36:32] Speaker 1: me pull it up in Isaiah forty one twenty five.
[2:36:35] Speaker 1: So we open up Isaiah forty one, and I'm going
[2:36:39] Speaker 1: to put it on the screen. Although I apologize you
[2:36:41] Speaker 1: can't see it. I can try sharing it with you,
[2:36:43] Speaker 1: see if that works. But I think you got a
[2:36:44] Speaker 1: Bible in front.
[2:36:45] Speaker 5: Of you, right, Isaiah forty one five?
[2:36:48] Speaker 1: He said, no, No, twenty five, forty one twenty five.
[2:36:52] Speaker 1: So this is this is just a couple verses before
[2:36:56] Speaker 1: the reference in forty two to the servant. Right, So
[2:37:00] Speaker 1: if you start in twenty five, he says, I stirred
[2:37:04] Speaker 1: up one from the North, and he has come from
[2:37:06] Speaker 1: the rising of the sun, and he has summoned he
[2:37:09] Speaker 1: was summoned by name. He shall trample on rulers, as
[2:37:12] Speaker 1: on mortar, as the potter treads to Clay. Okay, so
[2:37:16] Speaker 1: this clearly is King Cyrus. He spent the prior chapters
[2:37:20] Speaker 1: leading up to this talking about the one from the north.
[2:37:23] Speaker 1: That's the Persian king, right, he's at the beginning of
[2:37:28] Speaker 1: forty one, who has aroused the victor from the east. Okay,
[2:37:33] Speaker 1: So the servant doing God's bidding in Isaiah forty one,
[2:37:38] Speaker 1: and I believe the first part of Isaiah forty two
[2:37:41] Speaker 1: is King Cyrus.
[2:37:44] Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're right it definitely. It changes to
[2:37:49] Speaker 5: a different servant by verse nineteen of forty two.
[2:37:55] Speaker 1: Possibly, So when you get to verse nineteen of forty two,
[2:38:02] Speaker 1: you've got a huge situation going on with who in
[2:38:05] Speaker 1: the world God is even talking to? And I think
[2:38:08] Speaker 1: the most confusing part is even verse twenty four and
[2:38:11] Speaker 1: twenty five. He switches the pronouns so many times it
[2:38:16] Speaker 1: will make your head dizzy, Like it says, was it
[2:38:19] Speaker 1: not the Lord against whom we have sinned? In whose
[2:38:22] Speaker 1: ways they would not walk, and whose laws they would
[2:38:25] Speaker 1: not obey? So he poured out upon him the heat
[2:38:28] Speaker 1: and his anger and the fury of war and set
[2:38:31] Speaker 1: him on fire, Like why are we just switching pronouns
[2:38:35] Speaker 1: all willy nilly?
[2:38:36] Speaker 5: Now?
[2:38:37] Speaker 1: The answer to why Isaiah forty two swhich is pronoun
[2:38:40] Speaker 1: so willy nilly is answered by John D.
[2:38:42] Speaker 4: Watts.
[2:38:43] Speaker 1: He's a scholar who did a famous commentary on the
[2:38:48] Speaker 1: Book of Isaiah. Is because it's a poetic structure that
[2:38:52] Speaker 1: involves multiple people and was originally done as a call
[2:38:57] Speaker 1: in response Okay, sorry, that's a lot.
[2:39:06] Speaker 5: I don't agree with that interpretation, but I don't want
[2:39:08] Speaker 5: to get bombed down on that one verse. I just
[2:39:11] Speaker 5: kind of want to show that there's a different lead
[2:39:13] Speaker 5: up to Isaiah fifty three than you led me on,
[2:39:17] Speaker 5: because you only showed me the verses that are very
[2:39:19] Speaker 5: clearly about a big chunk of Israel, if not all
[2:39:25] Speaker 5: of Israel.
[2:39:25] Speaker 1: There are a potential three servants in Second Isaiah, and
[2:39:30] Speaker 1: all of them are alive at that time, the Remnant
[2:39:33] Speaker 1: of Israel, the Prophet himself, and King Cyrus. They're all
[2:39:38] Speaker 1: alive right there then there, Okay, but like the whole.
[2:39:44] Speaker 5: You don't the whole profit is that was that? I'm
[2:39:46] Speaker 5: not I don't get your point, could you? What are
[2:39:50] Speaker 5: you getting at that they were all alive?
[2:39:52] Speaker 1: What I'm saying is the entire prophecy of Isaiah is
[2:39:55] Speaker 1: talking about current events. All of Second Isaiah is about
[2:39:59] Speaker 1: the redemption of Israel from Babylon. Every last chapter of
[2:40:03] Speaker 1: Second Isaiah is about the release of the captives from
[2:40:06] Speaker 1: Babylon and how God's going to make it so glorious
[2:40:09] Speaker 1: that all the nations will see that God is the
[2:40:12] Speaker 1: real God when he frees them. From captivity and restores
[2:40:15] Speaker 1: them to their former glory. Now, when we get to
[2:40:19] Speaker 1: these servant passages, we have three different options. When you
[2:40:23] Speaker 1: hear the word servant, almost universally, it's the nation of Israel.
[2:40:27] Speaker 1: He says it over and over again. You have one
[2:40:29] Speaker 1: instance where it's probably referring to the prophet, and another
[2:40:33] Speaker 1: instance where it looks like is referring to King Cyrus.
[2:40:36] Speaker 1: I have no reason to believe that he's referring to
[2:40:39] Speaker 1: someone who's going to be coming hundreds of years later.
[2:40:42] Speaker 1: That is completely disconnected with the entire context of the prophecy.
[2:40:47] Speaker 1: The context of Second Isaiah is Babylon.
[2:40:59] Speaker 5: Okay, So I mean, if all he's doing is talking
[2:41:01] Speaker 5: about current events, he's a news anchor, not a prophet.
[2:41:05] Speaker 1: Well, he's both.
[2:41:06] Speaker 5: He's talking about it because he's.
[2:41:09] Speaker 1: He's talking about things that are happening right now and
[2:41:12] Speaker 1: how they're going to play out. Right, He's talking about
[2:41:14] Speaker 1: King Cyrus in their present tens.
[2:41:21] Speaker 5: Yeah, King Cyrus wasn't he a lot? He certainly hadn't
[2:41:26] Speaker 5: done what Isaiah says he's going to do.
[2:41:30] Speaker 3: Yet.
[2:41:30] Speaker 1: Oh no, he did.
[2:41:32] Speaker 5: So that's a future. He's not talking. He's not talking.
[2:41:35] Speaker 5: He's not saying that Cyrus has done this. Oh he does,
[2:41:38] Speaker 5: saying this is what Cyrus is going to do.
[2:41:40] Speaker 1: Oh no, Isaiah forty five thirteen. I have aroused Cyrus
[2:41:45] Speaker 1: in righteousness. It's already completed. He already did it.
[2:41:51] Speaker 5: No, that's the prophetic tense.
[2:41:54] Speaker 1: No, there's no such thing as prophetic. No, you're wrong.
[2:41:56] Speaker 1: That's completely incorrect. I disagree one hundred.
[2:42:04] Speaker 5: So you don't think there's any place in scripture where
[2:42:06] Speaker 5: it speaks of a future event as so certain, as
[2:42:11] Speaker 5: if it's already come to pass.
[2:42:13] Speaker 1: Only when he tells you. Only when he tells you,
[2:42:16] Speaker 1: this is what you're going to do. And then he's
[2:42:19] Speaker 1: personifying people in the future. He never talks about the
[2:42:23] Speaker 1: future in present or past tense language. Here he's talking
[2:42:27] Speaker 1: about stuff that already happened. I have aroused Cyrus in righteousness.
[2:42:37] Speaker 1: So the prophet is positioning himself right before the exiles
[2:42:41] Speaker 1: are released. He's writing as Cyrus is making his march
[2:42:46] Speaker 1: conquering all the nations, saying I've aroused Cyrus, and this
[2:42:50] Speaker 1: is the shit he's going to do. He's going to
[2:42:52] Speaker 1: release my exiles. Second, Isaiah was written right before the
[2:42:56] Speaker 1: exile was released. Most likely.
[2:43:02] Speaker 5: Okay, all right, Well, I don't think it's critical to
[2:43:06] Speaker 5: the understanding of fifty three whether we see eye to
[2:43:09] Speaker 5: eye on whether Isaiah is seeing anything future about Cyrus
[2:43:16] Speaker 5: or not.
[2:43:18] Speaker 1: No, I agree, I don't think fifty three regret.
[2:43:21] Speaker 5: I regret just conceding it. But I think he is
[2:43:24] Speaker 5: seeing he's he's seeing future things. Yes, God has currently
[2:43:27] Speaker 5: stirred him up, but Isaiah's seeing things that are future.
[2:43:33] Speaker 5: But anyway, if you keep on going through Isaiah forty
[2:43:36] Speaker 5: forty forty three, ten seems to be again maybe the
[2:43:43] Speaker 5: nation of Israel or the Righteous Remnant, as you said.
[2:43:45] Speaker 1: It must be it's a plural.
[2:43:48] Speaker 5: And then forty four seems to be forty four to
[2:43:53] Speaker 5: one and two seem to be about the nation of Israel.
[2:43:56] Speaker 5: Forty four. I think these are all ones that you
[2:43:59] Speaker 5: showed me. I'm just trying to make sure I go
[2:44:00] Speaker 5: down and I'm fair to the context. Forty four. All
[2:44:06] Speaker 5: of forty four is about Israel them being his servant.
[2:44:14] Speaker 5: But then when you get to the end of Isaiah
[2:44:16] Speaker 5: forty eight, it stops going back and forth between being
[2:44:20] Speaker 5: about individuals and being about the nation, and it's only
[2:44:23] Speaker 5: about a very mysterious individual it's definitely not Cyrus. It's
[2:44:28] Speaker 5: definitely not a remnant of Israel.
[2:44:30] Speaker 1: It certainly is.
[2:44:33] Speaker 5: It definitely is not, because well, it certainly is. In
[2:44:38] Speaker 5: Isaiah forty.
[2:44:39] Speaker 1: Nine five, he said, is Isaiah forty eight to go there?
[2:44:44] Speaker 5: I said, yeah, I said, at the end of forty eight,
[2:44:48] Speaker 5: it goes to it's it's the servant the Lord redeemed
[2:44:52] Speaker 5: his servant Jacob. Yeah, yep, from Babylonian captivity.
[2:44:57] Speaker 4: Right.
[2:44:57] Speaker 5: No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I mean I meant to
[2:44:59] Speaker 5: say that the last that's the last reference Isaiah forty
[2:45:03] Speaker 5: eight is the last reference to that Isaiah forty nine
[2:45:07] Speaker 5: to three, which says Israel. So you might think, oh,
[2:45:12] Speaker 5: this is still about the nation. It says to me,
[2:45:17] Speaker 5: and he said to me, you are my servant Israel,
[2:45:21] Speaker 5: in whom I will be glorified. And so this is
[2:45:24] Speaker 5: starting to give us a clue here that Israel, while
[2:45:28] Speaker 5: Israel is a nation, at one time Israel was just
[2:45:31] Speaker 5: a single person. It was Jacob after he wrestled with
[2:45:35] Speaker 5: the Lord, and that one person was a messed up person,
[2:45:39] Speaker 5: and he became a messed up nation. And now God
[2:45:43] Speaker 5: is going to send a perfect Israel. And from here
[2:45:47] Speaker 5: on out, it's nothing but an individual talking about Isaiah
[2:45:52] Speaker 5: forty nine to five.
[2:45:53] Speaker 1: I disagree.
[2:45:53] Speaker 5: It says he who formed me from the womb to
[2:45:56] Speaker 5: be his servant. Every mention bring Jacob back to him,
[2:45:59] Speaker 5: so that Israel has gathered to him.
[2:46:01] Speaker 1: Every mention of Israel as a servant is singular references.
[2:46:05] Speaker 1: Just referring to this singular grammar doesn't mean it's a person.
[2:46:16] Speaker 5: I got you, Okay, I think I see what you're saying.
[2:46:18] Speaker 5: But yeah, but there's room. There's room, definitely for this
[2:46:24] Speaker 5: concept of a failed entity and then a new entity
[2:46:29] Speaker 5: being brought in to fill in for them, because, like
[2:46:32] Speaker 5: I said, in Isaiah forty nine to five, look at
[2:46:34] Speaker 5: it says he formed me from the womb to be
[2:46:36] Speaker 5: his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, so that
[2:46:40] Speaker 5: you have Jacob bringing back Jacob.
[2:46:41] Speaker 1: No, the prophet. That's why I said, there's one instance
[2:46:45] Speaker 1: where the prophet seems to be the servant, and you
[2:46:48] Speaker 1: just found it.
[2:46:52] Speaker 5: So that Israel is gathered to him. No he's not,
[2:46:56] Speaker 5: because God earlier in the passage said nobody's going to
[2:46:59] Speaker 5: listen to you. God made a plain that he was
[2:47:01] Speaker 5: sending Isaiah on a a failing mission. If the mission
[2:47:07] Speaker 5: was to bring Israel back, he was going to fail.
[2:47:09] Speaker 5: And in another passage, he says, who was believed our report?
[2:47:12] Speaker 5: And nobody believed Isaiah. Isaiah did not bring Jacob back
[2:47:15] Speaker 5: to the Lord.
[2:47:15] Speaker 1: Well, Isaiah fifty three to one has nothing to do
[2:47:17] Speaker 1: with what we're talking about here. And also keep in
[2:47:20] Speaker 1: mind that Isaiah didn't write Second Isaiah. He's already dead,
[2:47:23] Speaker 1: he didn't live for two hundred years. Second Isaiah was
[2:47:26] Speaker 1: added to Isaiah by somebody who came from Isaiah's school.
[2:47:32] Speaker 1: There's not a single piece of Second Isaiah that appears
[2:47:36] Speaker 1: to be written prior to the Assyrian invasion.
[2:47:42] Speaker 5: Okay, so I feel like you're moving the target pretty
[2:47:46] Speaker 5: significantly here. What I'm saying is like, I'm not willing
[2:47:51] Speaker 5: to kind of send me scrambling.
[2:47:52] Speaker 1: I'm not willing to grant you that the author of
[2:47:55] Speaker 1: First Isaiah is the same author as Second and third Isaiah.
[2:47:58] Speaker 1: There's three different authors. They're all prophets. You can say
[2:48:02] Speaker 1: they're a prophet, but they're not the same author.
[2:48:06] Speaker 5: Okay, so I'm not going to I'm not going to
[2:48:09] Speaker 5: argue the author. I know very little about that, and
[2:48:17] Speaker 5: you probably picked up on that that's fine, But that
[2:48:20] Speaker 5: wasn't your argument the first time we read it. Your
[2:48:22] Speaker 5: argument was, oh, this is coherent, This is coherent, This
[2:48:24] Speaker 5: is coherent. It can't be the cert It has to
[2:48:26] Speaker 5: be the servant, as Jacob, it has to be the servants.
[2:48:28] Speaker 4: It is.
[2:48:29] Speaker 5: You didn't bring anything up about different authors contradicting each other.
[2:48:32] Speaker 5: But now that I'm bringing up a coherent stream of.
[2:48:35] Speaker 1: Scripture, I don't think it's a contradiction.
[2:48:37] Speaker 5: Really, not Isaiah, this is moving into it.
[2:48:40] Speaker 1: Not a contradiction, Joe, curious servant of the Lord's not
[2:48:43] Speaker 1: a contradiction, Joe.
[2:48:45] Speaker 5: Part of the book is written by somebody else.
[2:48:46] Speaker 1: Not a contradiction, Joe. It's a different audience, that's fine.
[2:48:54] Speaker 1: The prophecy at the beginning of Isaiah when he says,
[2:48:57] Speaker 1: when he says that hearing, they will not hear. Are
[2:49:00] Speaker 1: you seeing they will not see? That's a different audience.
[2:49:03] Speaker 1: That's the Israelites before they get taken by the Assyrians
[2:49:06] Speaker 1: and drawn into captivity. This prophecy is about a different
[2:49:11] Speaker 1: people group, the other people group. They're done, they were
[2:49:17] Speaker 1: captured by Assyria. They're gone. First Isaiah is addressing the
[2:49:27] Speaker 1: Assyrians coming in and wiping out northern Israel. Second Isaiah
[2:49:34] Speaker 1: is written much later after the Assyrian invasion and is
[2:49:38] Speaker 1: addressing the Babylonian captivity. That's why I said Isaiah didn't
[2:49:43] Speaker 1: live for two hundred years. He didn't write prior to
[2:49:46] Speaker 1: seven twenty five and then live to write in the
[2:49:50] Speaker 1: five thirties. He didn't live that long. He's got multiple authors.
[2:49:53] Speaker 5: Okay, all right, So so just to recap, who are
[2:49:57] Speaker 5: you saying that Isaiah is about.
[2:50:01] Speaker 1: It's about whoever the so called prophet is that wrote
[2:50:04] Speaker 1: Second Isaiah.
[2:50:08] Speaker 5: So you're saying, these these Hebrew writers who are continuing
[2:50:12] Speaker 5: in his tradition, they completely misunderstood his book, and they
[2:50:17] Speaker 5: completely missed history and are claiming that Isaiah brought Jacob
[2:50:24] Speaker 5: back to God.
[2:50:25] Speaker 1: Not even close.
[2:50:26] Speaker 4: Nope.
[2:50:28] Speaker 5: Okay, what I'm saying is there's a prophecy.
[2:50:33] Speaker 1: There's a prophecy given in Isaiah forty nine that seems
[2:50:36] Speaker 1: to be the Prophet bringing back the Israelites that have
[2:50:40] Speaker 1: been taken captives. And now the Lord says, who formed
[2:50:44] Speaker 1: me in the womb to be his servant to bring
[2:50:47] Speaker 1: Jacob back to him, him being God, that Israel might
[2:50:51] Speaker 1: be gathered to him to God. For I am honored
[2:50:54] Speaker 1: in the sight of the Lord, and my God has
[2:50:56] Speaker 1: become my strength. So it's either the prophet or it's
[2:51:00] Speaker 1: the righteous Remnant. I think it's the prophet. Some people
[2:51:03] Speaker 1: will argue the righteous Remnant.
[2:51:09] Speaker 5: Okay, you know who it's not.
[2:51:11] Speaker 1: It's not Jesus. Jesus didn't bring anybody back to the land.
[2:51:15] Speaker 1: He didn't gather anybody.
[2:51:20] Speaker 5: It says, gathered to him. It's not talking about a location.
[2:51:24] Speaker 1: Oh no, it certainly is. If you read all of Isaiah,
[2:51:26] Speaker 1: it's clear that the who's ever behaving during his time
[2:51:31] Speaker 1: period is going to result in the people being restored
[2:51:34] Speaker 1: to their land.
[2:51:37] Speaker 5: It says, I will grant you that, I will grant
[2:51:40] Speaker 5: you that there is a definite geographical portion to these prophecies.
[2:51:47] Speaker 5: But he says being gathered to God is not geographical.
[2:51:51] Speaker 1: He says, to raise up the tribes of Jacob and
[2:51:54] Speaker 1: restore the survivors of Israel. That's a restoration of the
[2:51:57] Speaker 1: Israelite people, just like it says in all the other prophecies,
[2:52:02] Speaker 1: Like the goal of these of this prophetic text is
[2:52:05] Speaker 1: the restoration of the nation of Israel. It's not about
[2:52:10] Speaker 1: some guide coming and dying for your sins.
[2:52:13] Speaker 5: Okay, Well, we know from the life and ministry of
[2:52:18] Speaker 5: Jesus that there's way more going on in God's promises
[2:52:24] Speaker 5: to Israel than just giving them a chunk of land
[2:52:27] Speaker 5: in the Middle East that the whole world is apparently
[2:52:29] Speaker 5: going to want.
[2:52:31] Speaker 1: Well, according to the Old Testament.
[2:52:32] Speaker 5: There's something way more significant than that.
[2:52:34] Speaker 1: It's the land and the temple and worldwide recognition that
[2:52:39] Speaker 1: God is in Israel on Zion.
[2:52:42] Speaker 4: With his people.
[2:52:49] Speaker 1: So here's the problem you're always going to have with
[2:52:51] Speaker 1: Isaiah fifty three. My interpretation of Isaiah fifty three agrees
[2:52:55] Speaker 1: with every prophetic book in the Old Testament, every last
[2:52:58] Speaker 1: one of them. I can show you in every single
[2:53:00] Speaker 1: prophetic book where it says exactly what I'm telling you,
[2:53:04] Speaker 1: and Isaiah just happens to agree with them. Your interpretation
[2:53:09] Speaker 1: contradicts every other prophetic book. It contradicts Ezekiel thirty six
[2:53:14] Speaker 1: and thirty seven, Jeremiah thirty three, Isaiah two, Isaiah eleven,
[2:53:18] Speaker 1: Zachari chapter eight. It contradicts what do you.
[2:53:21] Speaker 5: Mean by contradict? What do you mean by contradict?
[2:53:23] Speaker 1: But every prophecy about the Messianic age, I thing should
[2:53:26] Speaker 1: be true at once, every not this, every prophecy of
[2:53:32] Speaker 1: the Messiah and the Messianic Age doesn't say anything about
[2:53:36] Speaker 1: anyone dying and coming back thousands of years later. It
[2:53:39] Speaker 1: says the.
[2:53:40] Speaker 5: People will be restored because you've taken a bigger race.
[2:53:43] Speaker 5: Or to Isaiah fifty three.
[2:53:44] Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. Isaiah dy three doesn't say anything about
[2:53:47] Speaker 1: somebody dying, leaving and coming back thousands of years later.
[2:53:50] Speaker 1: Either you have to you have to.
[2:53:53] Speaker 5: Well, it doesn't talk about them leaving and coming back,
[2:53:55] Speaker 5: but it does talk about him dying and then and
[2:53:58] Speaker 5: yet seeing his offspring is Yes, the.
[2:54:00] Speaker 1: Nation of Israel who was taken from the land of
[2:54:02] Speaker 1: the living and placed in the land of the dead,
[2:54:05] Speaker 1: who actually do have offspring. Jesus doesn't have any offspring.
[2:54:09] Speaker 1: Jesus is an heir. He's not a father. No, no,
[2:54:13] Speaker 1: he doesn't have any offspring. We're brothers and sisters with Jesus.
[2:54:17] Speaker 1: We're heirs in the prize. We're we're not children of Jesus.
[2:54:23] Speaker 1: Jesus wasn't even the father. He's a child to God too.
[2:54:26] Speaker 1: That's why we're always called heirs with Christ, not children
[2:54:30] Speaker 1: of Christ. The descendants in Isaiah fifty three are the
[2:54:37] Speaker 1: descendants of Israel. That's why it says that they're gonna
[2:54:41] Speaker 1: They're gonna divide the spoils of the strong. This is
[2:54:45] Speaker 1: war language. The rest of Isaiah agrees with this. Isaiah says,
[2:54:49] Speaker 1: after they come back from Babylon that the kings will
[2:54:52] Speaker 1: lead a procession bringing you their wealth. I think that's
[2:54:59] Speaker 1: was it fifty fifty old? He let me find it.
[2:55:02] Speaker 1: I gotta remember where that was, been a minute since
[2:55:04] Speaker 1: I was there.
[2:55:10] Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there's a sense in which Christ actually
[2:55:12] Speaker 5: is my father as well spiritually.
[2:55:18] Speaker 1: No Isaiah's sixty. Isaiah sixty talks about the restoration after
[2:55:25] Speaker 1: the captivity, says, foreigners will build up your walls, and
[2:55:29] Speaker 1: their kings shall minister to you. For in my wrath
[2:55:32] Speaker 1: I struck you down, but in my favor I've had
[2:55:35] Speaker 1: mercy on you. Your gates will always be open day
[2:55:38] Speaker 1: and night shall not be shut, so that nations shall
[2:55:41] Speaker 1: bring you their wealth, and their kings leading in procession,
[2:55:45] Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. Like all of first, second,
[2:55:48] Speaker 1: and third Isaiah, all three of them, no matter who
[2:55:50] Speaker 1: you think wrote them, is about the restoration of Israel,
[2:55:53] Speaker 1: every last word. I have no reason to believe that
[2:55:58] Speaker 1: mysteriously magic just one chapter like eight different verses, is
[2:56:05] Speaker 1: now talking about something entirely disconnected from the rest of
[2:56:09] Speaker 1: the three.
[2:56:09] Speaker 5: Books, except again Isaiah Isaiah fifty three with the context.
[2:56:23] Speaker 5: I mean, I would love to just go there, but.
[2:56:27] Speaker 1: There's there's no context with Isaiah fifty three that's going
[2:56:29] Speaker 1: to make it idea.
[2:56:30] Speaker 5: I just wanted, I just wanted to I want yeah, well,
[2:56:33] Speaker 5: I wanted to lead up and say, the last time
[2:56:36] Speaker 5: we looked at this, you were this can only possibly
[2:56:39] Speaker 5: be talking about Israel whoever, yep, because that's who it's
[2:56:44] Speaker 5: talking about all the way up through there, and I'm
[2:56:46] Speaker 5: just demonstrating that that is not correct. It's talking about
[2:56:48] Speaker 5: many different peoples being one of them, Isaiah being one
[2:56:52] Speaker 5: of them, and Israel being one of them. But then
[2:56:55] Speaker 5: it goes to a very mysterious one that none of
[2:56:57] Speaker 5: those people could possibly fill the shoes of the person
[2:57:02] Speaker 5: in Isaiah fifty two.
[2:57:03] Speaker 1: And it's not a human being. It's a nation. I
[2:57:07] Speaker 1: want to read it.
[2:57:08] Speaker 5: It is not a nation because because this nation is
[2:57:12] Speaker 5: going to certainly is a nation suffer and die yep,
[2:57:15] Speaker 5: for the transgressions of the nation. The nation is going
[2:57:19] Speaker 5: to die for its own transgressions and by their stripes.
[2:57:25] Speaker 5: The nation is going to be healed.
[2:57:26] Speaker 1: Nope, I'm not reading it right. Want to read it
[2:57:31] Speaker 1: with me?
[2:57:33] Speaker 5: Yes, read it again.
[2:57:34] Speaker 1: Okay, go to Isaiah fifty two for me, fifty.
[2:57:38] Speaker 5: Two starting in verse thirteen, or where you want to
[2:57:40] Speaker 5: go fifty two.
[2:57:41] Speaker 4: Ten.
[2:57:43] Speaker 6: Okay.
[2:57:44] Speaker 1: The Lord has bared his Holy arm before the eyes
[2:57:47] Speaker 1: of all the nations and all the ends of the earth.
[2:57:49] Speaker 1: So see the salvation of our God. What does it
[2:57:52] Speaker 1: mean for God to bear his Holy arm?
[2:57:58] Speaker 5: Absolutely sounds like he's getting down to business.
[2:58:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, he's about to release the captives. He said it
[2:58:05] Speaker 1: about ten times up till now that he's going to
[2:58:07] Speaker 1: bare his arm when he releases the captives. He said
[2:58:11] Speaker 1: the same thing in when he released the captives from Egypt.
[2:58:14] Speaker 1: He says, I'm bearing my arm and will save them
[2:58:17] Speaker 1: through my outstretched hand. So this is them being freed
[2:58:21] Speaker 1: from captivity, which makes sense because the very next line
[2:58:24] Speaker 1: is depart, Depart, go out from there, touch no unclean thing,
[2:58:27] Speaker 1: go out from the midst of it. Purify yourselves, you
[2:58:29] Speaker 1: who carry the vessels of the Lord. For you shall
[2:58:32] Speaker 1: not go out in haste, and you shall not go
[2:58:33] Speaker 1: out in flight, for the Lord will go before you.
[2:58:36] Speaker 1: And the God of Israel will be your rearguard. So
[2:58:39] Speaker 1: still the context seems to be about leaving Babylon.
[2:58:42] Speaker 5: Right, I can definitely see that as an immediate and
[2:58:50] Speaker 5: immediate obvious use of this language.
[2:58:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, the immediate obvious context is it's time to get
[2:58:57] Speaker 1: freed from Babylon, which is what the whole book's been
[2:59:00] Speaker 1: about so far. And then he says, see, my servant
[2:59:02] Speaker 1: shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up and
[2:59:05] Speaker 1: shall be very high. Is there a reason why I
[2:59:07] Speaker 1: would take this to be anybody but the nation of Israel?
[2:59:10] Speaker 1: When he's already said ten other times he's going to
[2:59:12] Speaker 1: restore the fortunes of Israel. But is I know because
[2:59:23] Speaker 1: this god doesn't exist.
[2:59:24] Speaker 5: Again, he doesn't fit the bill.
[2:59:26] Speaker 1: No, he no follow me, Joe. See, I have this
[2:59:29] Speaker 1: conversation a million times, and Christians always have the same problem.
[2:59:33] Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, Christians always have the same problem.
[2:59:36] Speaker 1: You're saying, Well, it didn't come true with the Nation
[2:59:39] Speaker 1: of Israel, therefore it must be an out of context
[2:59:43] Speaker 1: prophecy about Jesus. It's not. It's not a real prophecy
[2:59:47] Speaker 1: because the god of this book doesn't exist. It's just
[2:59:50] Speaker 1: one of many hundreds of failed prophecies. You're right, So
[2:59:55] Speaker 1: the fact that it didn't come true has nothing to
[2:59:57] Speaker 1: do with whether or not it's about Jesus. Okay, So
[3:00:00] Speaker 1: it says, just as there are many who were astonished
[3:00:02] Speaker 1: at him, so marred was his appearance beyond human semblance,
[3:00:05] Speaker 1: and his formed beyond that immortals. So he shall startle
[3:00:08] Speaker 1: many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths because of him.
[3:00:11] Speaker 5: Startle. What what is your what translation are you're reading?
[3:00:14] Speaker 1: I'm in the NRSV.
[3:00:17] Speaker 5: In art. Uh what is that?
[3:00:19] Speaker 1: The new revised.
[3:00:21] Speaker 5: RSV new revised? Is there any other translation that renders
[3:00:28] Speaker 5: that as startle?
[3:00:31] Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a bunch of them. Yeah, I know.
[3:00:35] Speaker 5: I know that the King James ESV a SV. I'll
[3:00:39] Speaker 5: render that as sprinkle.
[3:00:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all part of the same translation family, of course.
[3:00:47] Speaker 5: No, No, the ESV and the King James are not
[3:00:50] Speaker 5: part of the same translation family.
[3:00:51] Speaker 1: They are.
[3:00:52] Speaker 5: In fact, they may don't know about the ASV.
[3:00:54] Speaker 1: No they are. So the ESV makes a big point
[3:00:56] Speaker 1: that they stick to the same manuscript tradition as the
[3:00:59] Speaker 1: King James and the New King James. They try to
[3:01:04] Speaker 1: stick to the revised text and to the Massoretic text.
[3:01:12] Speaker 5: All right, I'm not qualified to argue with that with
[3:01:15] Speaker 5: you about that, but I'm pretty sure I was pretty
[3:01:18] Speaker 5: sure the King James stuck with the textus receptists. Yeah,
[3:01:25] Speaker 5: and the ESV went back to older documents.
[3:01:32] Speaker 1: So the selling point of the ESV has always been
[3:01:34] Speaker 1: that they, unless they changed in the latest translation, was
[3:01:38] Speaker 1: that they emphasized the manuscript traditions that the King James emphasized,
[3:01:44] Speaker 1: namely the received text and the messoretic text. So they're
[3:01:48] Speaker 1: going to be They're gonna they're going to be a
[3:01:51] Speaker 1: little more in line with the King James on some
[3:01:53] Speaker 1: of these things. It's not that they'd never use the
[3:01:55] Speaker 1: alternative text. I just to give more weight to the
[3:01:58] Speaker 1: received text. So the the na b Ri says startle,
[3:02:04] Speaker 1: so shall so shall he startle many nations?
[3:02:10] Speaker 5: All right, well I won't. I won't hold up our
[3:02:13] Speaker 5: discussion with that one.
[3:02:15] Speaker 1: Right, So anyways, let me we'll go back here. Uh, okay,
[3:02:20] Speaker 1: So is say fifty two so far? Is there any
[3:02:24] Speaker 1: reason why I would read this about anybody but the
[3:02:26] Speaker 1: nation of Israel? The whole chapter so far is about
[3:02:39] Speaker 1: the nation of Israel. Why would I insert somebody other
[3:02:42] Speaker 1: than that.
[3:02:43] Speaker 5: Yeah, So okay, so let me let me just ask you,
[3:02:45] Speaker 5: like what as far as how I would qualify. I
[3:02:52] Speaker 5: feel like this is kind of a a no win
[3:02:55] Speaker 5: for me because if I say, well, is You'll didn't
[3:02:59] Speaker 5: fulfill in of this. Cyris didn't fulfill in any of this.
[3:03:02] Speaker 5: This has to be an additional person. All you have
[3:03:07] Speaker 5: to do is say, well, I believe the whole thing
[3:03:09] Speaker 5: is a farce, and so it doesn't matter. It's just
[3:03:13] Speaker 5: a false prophecy. So what would be no what would
[3:03:19] Speaker 5: be sufficient that's not real for you, that this was
[3:03:22] Speaker 5: talking about a verifiable historical figure who started the world's
[3:03:29] Speaker 5: greatest religion, largest, most powerful, most influential. What would be
[3:03:34] Speaker 5: a mark to you that I could possibly present that
[3:03:38] Speaker 5: would prove that this was talking about Jesus other than
[3:03:41] Speaker 5: it's saying his name.
[3:03:42] Speaker 1: It would actually have to fit the context. He would
[3:03:46] Speaker 1: actually have to be talking about event hundreds of years
[3:03:49] Speaker 1: later that is actually about a Messiah. The only Messiah
[3:03:53] Speaker 1: ever mentioned in Second Isaiah is King Cyrus. Like a
[3:03:57] Speaker 1: clear prophetic text is Jeremiah thirty three, Isaiah chapter eleven,
[3:04:03] Speaker 1: Ezekiel chapter thirty six and thirty seven, where it clearly
[3:04:06] Speaker 1: talks about the dividic king and what the dividic king
[3:04:09] Speaker 1: is going to do. That's what it means to be
[3:04:11] Speaker 1: the messiah.
[3:04:19] Speaker 4: Jesus.
[3:04:19] Speaker 1: First of all, Jesus was never even a king like
[3:04:22] Speaker 1: a massiac is a king or a priest. He was neither.
[3:04:29] Speaker 5: He was a king.
[3:04:30] Speaker 1: No, he wasn't.
[3:04:32] Speaker 5: He was no. He was said that his kingdom was
[3:04:35] Speaker 5: he said that his kingdom was not of this world.
[3:04:37] Speaker 1: Oh shit, well, I'm a kingdom.
[3:04:38] Speaker 5: And the sentence that the sentence that Pilot put over
[3:04:42] Speaker 5: him was he put the sign the king of the.
[3:04:45] Speaker 1: Jews over him because they were mocking him and he wasn't.
[3:04:47] Speaker 5: That was just a an ironic mistake on Pilot's part,
[3:04:52] Speaker 5: But the Jews took great issue with it because he
[3:04:55] Speaker 5: wasn't a king. They knew what it meant. He was
[3:04:57] Speaker 5: a king.
[3:04:58] Speaker 1: He wasn't a king. I'm a king. If all you
[3:05:02] Speaker 1: have to do to be a king is to say
[3:05:03] Speaker 1: you're a king, and then I'm a king, you just
[3:05:05] Speaker 1: don't know I'm a king because my kingdom's for a way,
[3:05:07] Speaker 1: you can't see it. There's not a single passage in
[3:05:12] Speaker 1: the Bible whatsoever that depicts Jesus behaving as a king
[3:05:16] Speaker 1: sitting on the throne of King David, ruling over the Israelites.
[3:05:19] Speaker 1: In fact, in John when they try to make him king,
[3:05:21] Speaker 1: he runs from them.
[3:05:29] Speaker 5: Okay, I don't immediately have an answer for that.
[3:05:32] Speaker 1: Like if you're an actual king, so you actually have.
[3:05:35] Speaker 5: To actually back to the Oh. Well, if if that's
[3:05:40] Speaker 5: what it takes to be a king, then he absolutely
[3:05:41] Speaker 5: was a ruling Oh it certainly wasn't.
[3:05:45] Speaker 2: He was.
[3:05:46] Speaker 5: He was ruling in a very great capacity. He was
[3:05:48] Speaker 5: not ruling the Israelite There's no there's no mere human
[3:05:53] Speaker 5: king who has ruled as many subjects as King Jesus has.
[3:05:56] Speaker 1: Did he rule over Israel?
[3:06:00] Speaker 5: Yes, over many of them?
[3:06:01] Speaker 1: No, he did not rule over Israel. King Herod was
[3:06:04] Speaker 1: on the throne when he was there.
[3:06:07] Speaker 5: Well, he ruled over them in the from the standpoint
[3:06:11] Speaker 5: that actually matters, Well, he's a spiritual king. They did
[3:06:14] Speaker 5: what they did, what he said to do.
[3:06:16] Speaker 1: Well, I'm the spiritual king.
[3:06:17] Speaker 6: Then.
[3:06:18] Speaker 1: In fact, I've got about let's say, seven hundred and
[3:06:22] Speaker 1: eighty two followers on the vertical stream, eight hundred. Now
[3:06:25] Speaker 1: I got nine hundred on the horizontal stream, a couple
[3:06:28] Speaker 1: hundred on TikTok I've got two thousand followers here. That
[3:06:32] Speaker 1: makes me a king? Am are your king? Guys? Put it? So,
[3:06:35] Speaker 1: that's put a crown in the chat if I'm the king.
[3:06:39] Speaker 5: So, how many of your subjects are willing to die
[3:06:41] Speaker 5: for you? How many of your subjects are.
[3:06:43] Speaker 1: Oh that's irrelevant whether they're not willing to die. Now
[3:06:45] Speaker 1: you're shifting goalposts.
[3:06:46] Speaker 5: How many of you said subjects are willing? You just
[3:06:48] Speaker 5: said I needed subject tell everything that they have to
[3:06:51] Speaker 5: follow you?
[3:06:51] Speaker 1: Meaningless? Look at all the crowns in the chat. TikTok
[3:06:57] Speaker 1: popular the chat. Sorry, I can't see it. TikTok popping
[3:07:01] Speaker 1: off the crowns. Yeah, so just just saying you're a
[3:07:05] Speaker 1: spiritual king is a meaningless statement to me. Anyone could
[3:07:07] Speaker 1: be a spiritual king. An actual king is someone ruling
[3:07:11] Speaker 1: and reigning over a people group the way it was
[3:07:13] Speaker 1: described in the Bible, where he's going to defeat Israel's
[3:07:16] Speaker 1: enemies and he's gonna enact justice over the entire land.
[3:07:24] Speaker 2: So would like.
[3:07:28] Speaker 5: So, if you are a real king and your subjects
[3:07:32] Speaker 5: revolt against you and kick you off the throne, does
[3:07:36] Speaker 5: that mean you are not any longer a king? Or
[3:07:39] Speaker 5: we're never a real king or that.
[3:07:41] Speaker 1: Means you're no longer king if you're not on the
[3:07:43] Speaker 1: throne and there's a new king on the throne ruling
[3:07:46] Speaker 1: over the people, then yeah. And typically to be a
[3:07:49] Speaker 1: king you just need a majority.
[3:07:53] Speaker 5: Okay, Well, so I would say that Christ is a
[3:07:55] Speaker 5: real king and that he again he said his kingdom
[3:07:59] Speaker 5: is not of this world, so.
[3:08:00] Speaker 1: It's mine mine, not of the world. I think I've
[3:08:02] Speaker 1: got millions of followers in another world. I've got I
[3:08:05] Speaker 1: got millions of followers in another world.
[3:08:09] Speaker 5: No, but you don't have millions of five dollars in
[3:08:11] Speaker 5: this world.
[3:08:11] Speaker 3: No.
[3:08:12] Speaker 5: In the other word, Jesus has. No Jesus has billions
[3:08:15] Speaker 5: of followers in this world. It's uh, yes, But he
[3:08:22] Speaker 5: doesn't claim to be king at all.
[3:08:23] Speaker 1: So what does it matter? Your definition of king includes Muhammad?
[3:08:29] Speaker 5: No you have You wouldn't have to claim to be
[3:08:31] Speaker 5: a king.
[3:08:31] Speaker 3: No, you don't.
[3:08:32] Speaker 1: You don't have to claim to be a king. To
[3:08:33] Speaker 1: be a king, all you got to do is do
[3:08:35] Speaker 1: the work.
[3:08:35] Speaker 5: Christ said that he was a king, but he wasn't.
[3:08:37] Speaker 5: Christ said that he was a king, but that his
[3:08:39] Speaker 5: kingdom was not of this world. That's what he said.
[3:08:41] Speaker 1: And he was a liar.
[3:08:41] Speaker 5: He said he's a kingdom from another realm. Yeah.
[3:08:43] Speaker 1: I would say the same thing too, if I didn't
[3:08:45] Speaker 1: have an actual kingdom, I'd say, oh, Justin, is that
[3:08:49] Speaker 1: supermodel in your wallet your girlfriend? Yeah, she's my girlfriend,
[3:08:52] Speaker 1: but she actually lives in Canada. You're never going to
[3:08:54] Speaker 1: get a meet her. Yeah. This nonsense of I'm a
[3:08:56] Speaker 1: real king but you can't see my kingdom as far
[3:08:58] Speaker 1: away as nonsense.
[3:09:00] Speaker 5: So if a king has an opponent who is rebellion
[3:09:05] Speaker 5: against him and hates his guts, and that opponent says
[3:09:08] Speaker 5: you're not a real king, does that make the real
[3:09:12] Speaker 5: king not a real king?
[3:09:14] Speaker 1: Because because a real king has a dominion, a real
[3:09:18] Speaker 1: king has control, an authority over his over physical people.
[3:09:25] Speaker 1: That's Jesus. That's a metaphorical, metaphoric nonsense. A real king,
[3:09:31] Speaker 1: a real king, rules over a territory, a geographical location.
[3:09:43] Speaker 5: Yeah, And I would say that Jesus rules over the
[3:09:45] Speaker 5: entire world. He doesn't that all things, All things are
[3:09:49] Speaker 5: coming to pass as Jesus has decreed.
[3:09:52] Speaker 1: Now a single thing came to pass as he decreed.
[3:09:54] Speaker 1: He said he was coming back before all his disciples died,
[3:09:56] Speaker 1: and then he didn't.
[3:10:05] Speaker 5: Well, I see, I believe that Jesus is the incarnate Word,
[3:10:10] Speaker 5: and that the Old Testament is the word of Jesus
[3:10:13] Speaker 5: as well as the New Testament.
[3:10:14] Speaker 1: And I believe that's illogical nonsense, because Jesus didn't fulfill
[3:10:19] Speaker 1: a single prophecy, not even one. And the best thing
[3:10:22] Speaker 1: you have, the closest thing you can ever get to,
[3:10:26] Speaker 1: is Isaiah fifty three, And it only works if you
[3:10:29] Speaker 1: ignore all the context of Second Isaiah. You have to
[3:10:32] Speaker 1: ignore all of it in order to make that work.
[3:10:35] Speaker 1: My interpretation agrees with the rest of Isaiah's context, and
[3:10:38] Speaker 1: it degrees with the rest of the Old Testament. So
[3:10:41] Speaker 1: therefore I have no reason to believe that Isaiah ffty
[3:10:44] Speaker 1: three is about Jesus. Now, if Jesus fulfilled twenty other
[3:10:48] Speaker 1: prophecies that nobody else could have ever fulfilled, then I belike, well, shit,
[3:10:52] Speaker 1: maybe Isaiah ffty three is a secret prophecy. But being
[3:10:54] Speaker 1: that he didn't fulfill even one prophecy, I would never
[3:10:58] Speaker 1: give him the benefit of the doubt to make me
[3:11:02] Speaker 1: rip this passage out of its context and make it
[3:11:04] Speaker 1: say something. It's not saying he didn't feel anything, but
[3:11:13] Speaker 1: not one. This is all you have, is all you have.
[3:11:21] Speaker 5: Are you done? Yeah, I'm done, okay, Isaiah fifty three Again,
[3:11:28] Speaker 5: it's going going down if you don't mind reaching some more.
[3:11:32] Speaker 1: So all they got all right? We on fifteen. Still
[3:11:34] Speaker 1: let me pull it open again. So fifteen says he
[3:11:37] Speaker 1: will startle many nations. Kings will shut their mouths because
[3:11:40] Speaker 1: of him. For that which had not been told to
[3:11:43] Speaker 1: them they shall see, and that which they had not
[3:11:45] Speaker 1: heard they shall contemplate, which makes perfect sense. Right. The
[3:11:49] Speaker 1: nations that are about to witness God freeing the Israelites
[3:11:52] Speaker 1: from captivity, they don't know what's coming. They don't know
[3:11:55] Speaker 1: what's happening, right, Okay, So the people people who don't
[3:12:01] Speaker 1: know what's coming are going to contemplate it.
[3:12:03] Speaker 2: Right.
[3:12:04] Speaker 1: And then the very next verse is a personification of
[3:12:06] Speaker 1: the nations contemplating that very thing. Who has believed what
[3:12:10] Speaker 1: we have heard, or someone will say, who has believed
[3:12:12] Speaker 1: our report? And to whom has the arm of the
[3:12:15] Speaker 1: Lord been revealed? Well, the last chapter told you to
[3:12:18] Speaker 1: arm the Lord's being revealed to the nations when he
[3:12:20] Speaker 1: frees the Israelites. So we now got a personification of
[3:12:24] Speaker 1: the nations telling the people or telling everybody what they've witnessed.
[3:12:31] Speaker 1: When Israel gets freed from captivity, the nations are going
[3:12:34] Speaker 1: to say, holy shit, did you see what just happened?
[3:12:37] Speaker 1: This was wild? And that again is parsimonious with all
[3:12:42] Speaker 1: of the rest of Second Isaiah.
[3:12:47] Speaker 5: What does parsimonious mean.
[3:12:49] Speaker 1: It just means it fits the data the best.
[3:12:52] Speaker 5: Okay, cool, thank you parsimonious.
[3:12:58] Speaker 1: Okay, So the whole chapter is the nations, not the
[3:13:04] Speaker 1: whole chapter, but most of the until you get to
[3:13:06] Speaker 1: like the verse nine or ten. Is the nations reflecting
[3:13:09] Speaker 1: on what they've witnessed. Okay, it's not even a prophecy,
[3:13:16] Speaker 1: by the way.
[3:13:17] Speaker 5: That's right, all right, So it is the Isaiah fifty
[3:13:21] Speaker 5: three is the nations reflecting on what they have witnessed.
[3:13:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, and most academic ameteries.
[3:13:29] Speaker 5: Consistent to the host chapter.
[3:13:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, Eventually that personification ends, I think in verse eight nine.
[3:13:38] Speaker 1: Let me see verse twelve. I think it might be
[3:13:46] Speaker 1: over with by verse twelve. No, no, no, it ends
[3:13:52] Speaker 1: maybe ends a ten. Yeah, ten's got to be the
[3:13:57] Speaker 1: beginning of the actual prophecy, because there's more language happening
[3:14:02] Speaker 1: after ten that are future tents. Therefore, I will allot
[3:14:06] Speaker 1: him a portion with the great future tents different boys.
[3:14:13] Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, so I guess. So my understanding of Isaiah
[3:14:22] Speaker 5: fifty three, and the reason that I go, the reason
[3:14:25] Speaker 5: this makes so much sense to me as being a
[3:14:27] Speaker 5: Messianic psalm, is that all throughout the Old Testament there
[3:14:32] Speaker 5: is this sprinkling of God himself providing for the people
[3:14:37] Speaker 5: of Israel a solution for their sin, a solution for
[3:14:47] Speaker 5: for their problem of unrighteousness, dealing with a God of righteousness.
[3:14:52] Speaker 1: Not always.
[3:14:53] Speaker 5: And it grows, it grows, and it gets clearer, and
[3:14:55] Speaker 5: it gets clearer, not always. And so I'm not looking
[3:14:58] Speaker 5: at this passage and saying, oh, the the only context
[3:15:00] Speaker 5: here is Isaiah and the babylon exile.
[3:15:03] Speaker 1: You know there was forgiveness without blood, right Genesis. What's
[3:15:06] Speaker 1: that You know there was forgiveness without blood?
[3:15:08] Speaker 4: Right?
[3:15:11] Speaker 5: Can you share those examples with me?
[3:15:13] Speaker 1: Yeah? Libertas chapter five, I think verse eleven, Yeah, I'll
[3:15:18] Speaker 1: pull it up.
[3:15:19] Speaker 5: Five and eleven.
[3:15:20] Speaker 2: Uh, I can't.
[3:15:21] Speaker 5: You can probably pull it up. I got it. I think.
[3:15:25] Speaker 5: I think I'll happily look at this verse with you.
[3:15:27] Speaker 5: I think that's a distraction from my point that I
[3:15:29] Speaker 5: was making.
[3:15:30] Speaker 1: But well, your point is the point that you need blood.
[3:15:32] Speaker 1: But you don't, right. You want it to say sprinkle
[3:15:37] Speaker 1: because you think sprinkle hearkens back to the foreshadowing of blood.
[3:15:41] Speaker 1: But sprinkle is not actually in the passage, and you
[3:15:43] Speaker 1: actually don't need sprinkle to get forgiveness.
[3:15:48] Speaker 5: Okay, right, But where there staid a Leviticus what five.
[3:15:52] Speaker 1: Eleven says, if you cannot afford two turtle doves or
[3:15:57] Speaker 1: two pigeons, you shall bring as you're offering for this
[3:16:00] Speaker 1: in that you have committed one tenth of an ephah
[3:16:02] Speaker 1: of choice flour for a purification offering. You shall not
[3:16:05] Speaker 1: put oil on it or lay any frankincense on it,
[3:16:08] Speaker 1: for it is a purification offering. You shall bring it
[3:16:10] Speaker 1: to the priest.
[3:16:11] Speaker 3: In uh.
[3:16:12] Speaker 1: So you bring it to the priest, and the priest
[3:16:14] Speaker 1: shall scoop up a handful of it as a memorial portion,
[3:16:17] Speaker 1: and turn this into smoke on the altar with the
[3:16:20] Speaker 1: offering by fire to the Lord. It's a purification offering,
[3:16:24] Speaker 1: so on and so forth. In some translations it's curification offeringement. No, Nope, Yeah,
[3:16:34] Speaker 1: predication is very different from atonement. Nope, can be wrong.
[3:16:39] Speaker 1: Verse thirteen. Thus the priest shall make atonement on your
[3:16:41] Speaker 1: behalf for whichever of these sins you have committed.
[3:16:51] Speaker 5: Li biticus. Sorry, I'm having to turn their analog because
[3:16:54] Speaker 5: my internet is going down on God is my cell phone.
[3:17:00] Speaker 6: Vidicuous?
[3:17:01] Speaker 5: Five? Okay, soul, would you as I find this that
[3:17:16] Speaker 5: you said five to eleven? Let's see, Well, if you
[3:17:20] Speaker 5: cannot afford a lamb, then you shall bring the to
[3:17:22] Speaker 5: the Lord as this conversation with the sin that he's committed,
[3:17:25] Speaker 5: turtle doves, he shall bring them the beast. If you
[3:17:31] Speaker 5: cannot afford to turtle doves or two pigeons, then shall
[3:17:33] Speaker 5: bring as his offering for the sin that he's committed
[3:17:35] Speaker 5: tenth faugh. Okay, so this is an extreme case of poverty,
[3:17:41] Speaker 5: and the Lord makes a very inexpensive exception for him.
[3:17:45] Speaker 5: And notice even there though that the bread, the bread fits.
[3:17:51] Speaker 1: Well, now we're talking about bread and now blood and
[3:17:53] Speaker 1: this is just flower. Yeah, bread. Okay. So the fact
[3:17:56] Speaker 1: of the matter is, now we've got a loophole, don't we.
[3:17:59] Speaker 1: You can get forgiven of your sins without blood, can't you?
[3:18:05] Speaker 5: If you are so poor that you cannot even afford
[3:18:08] Speaker 5: turtle doves, sin you can get then you can get
[3:18:12] Speaker 5: this uh this forget this part from yes this incredibly
[3:18:18] Speaker 5: by Okay.
[3:18:19] Speaker 1: So God is capable of forgiving or sins without the blood.
[3:18:27] Speaker 5: That is capable of forgiving sins through justice. Is the
[3:18:34] Speaker 5: entire the whole thing that Leviticus sets up is the
[3:18:37] Speaker 5: idea of of this picture of these animals taking the
[3:18:46] Speaker 5: place symbolically of people who have sinned. And yet it
[3:18:49] Speaker 5: goes on to tell us throughout Leviticus that an animal's
[3:18:52] Speaker 5: life is not worth a human's life. It makes that
[3:18:54] Speaker 5: very clear in the instance of the ox to go.
[3:19:01] Speaker 2: Is not.
[3:19:05] Speaker 1: We're connections breaking up. Joe, we're losing. We can't hear you, buddy,
[3:19:13] Speaker 1: we lost Jim. Where you go?
[3:19:18] Speaker 5: I think you're back, Joe, Yeah, I'm still here, all right,
[3:19:30] Speaker 5: hear me?
[3:19:31] Speaker 1: I think I think the connections are stored. Now, Okay,
[3:19:36] Speaker 1: I didn't hear anything. You just said you can rede that.
[3:19:39] Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so I was.
[3:19:40] Speaker 5: I was gonna say that the the image of So
[3:19:47] Speaker 5: this forgiveness that takes place in the Old Testament is
[3:19:50] Speaker 5: forgiveness based on faith, based on just obedience to God. Everyone,
[3:20:02] Speaker 5: There's only one way to be truly forgiven of sin,
[3:20:05] Speaker 5: and that is ultimately the sacrifice of a righteous person
[3:20:09] Speaker 5: in your place.
[3:20:10] Speaker 1: Does that be wrong? God said, no man can die
[3:20:12] Speaker 1: for the sense of another.
[3:20:16] Speaker 5: That's right, because because the Bible says there's none righteous, no,
[3:20:20] Speaker 5: not one, which is another country, because it's the only
[3:20:22] Speaker 5: righteous person.
[3:20:23] Speaker 1: Because zach Rye and Elizabeth were righteous, and so was
[3:20:27] Speaker 1: Job and so was no one.
[3:20:30] Speaker 5: Yeah, there are many people declared by God to be righteous.
[3:20:33] Speaker 5: And I know that you're familiar with it, that it
[3:20:35] Speaker 5: happens to be more than one.
[3:20:36] Speaker 3: Nobody.
[3:20:39] Speaker 1: What's that that said that happens to be more than one?
[3:20:42] Speaker 1: So Paul was wrong in Romans three?
[3:20:46] Speaker 5: Oh no, So so what he's pointing to is is
[3:20:49] Speaker 5: actual righteousness in themselves. There is not a single person
[3:20:54] Speaker 5: who has not fallen short of the glory of God.
[3:20:58] Speaker 1: Did you say that, because, David, because he said not
[3:21:01] Speaker 1: one is righteous. Now he does say that all have
[3:21:05] Speaker 1: fallen short. We know that, but that's a different states.
[3:21:09] Speaker 1: What does it mean to be righteous?
[3:21:12] Speaker 5: He says all have sinned and fallen short of the
[3:21:16] Speaker 5: glory of God.
[3:21:16] Speaker 1: So what you know? You can be righteous and still
[3:21:18] Speaker 1: be a sinner.
[3:21:19] Speaker 5: Right, Yes, I am righteous. I'm a righteous sinner.
[3:21:23] Speaker 1: There you go. But you don't need Jesus for it.
[3:21:26] Speaker 5: I do need Jesus.
[3:21:27] Speaker 1: Oh no, you certainly don't. David was righteous and he sinned.
[3:21:32] Speaker 5: Yeah, that you're getting my point. He was a righteous
[3:21:34] Speaker 5: sinners his sins. Blessed, David said, Blessed is the man
[3:21:40] Speaker 5: to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity. That God,
[3:21:46] Speaker 5: that God did not count his sin against him because
[3:21:50] Speaker 5: another one, David sin was going to bed Jesus. David
[3:21:56] Speaker 5: did need Jesus.
[3:21:56] Speaker 1: Where was he then? Why wasn't he in the book?
[3:22:00] Speaker 5: What do you mean?
[3:22:01] Speaker 1: Why was How did David's sins get forgiven by Jesus'
[3:22:04] Speaker 1: sacrifice if he didn't sacrifice him yet to himself.
[3:22:09] Speaker 5: Well, David didn't say that Jesus is going to sacrifice
[3:22:12] Speaker 5: for me. They understood that there was coming a lamb,
[3:22:15] Speaker 5: there was coming someone take away the sins of the world.
[3:22:17] Speaker 1: No, they absolutely did not.
[3:22:18] Speaker 5: Yes they did.
[3:22:19] Speaker 1: No, they didn't.
[3:22:20] Speaker 5: Yes, they did, liar because they did.
[3:22:22] Speaker 1: Nope, you're lying. Show says.
[3:22:28] Speaker 5: Hebrews talks about Hebrews is no Testament.
[3:22:30] Speaker 1: I'm talking about the Old Testament. Okay, he's not a
[3:22:34] Speaker 1: single verse in the Old Testaments. Someone's going to come.
[3:22:37] Speaker 5: These were individuals who were contemporary of Old test of
[3:22:41] Speaker 5: the Old Testament the New Testament.
[3:22:43] Speaker 1: Show me a passage in the Old Testament that says
[3:22:47] Speaker 1: that someone's coming to die for your sins and the sins.
[3:22:49] Speaker 5: Of the world. Okay, so a a very clear hint
[3:22:56] Speaker 5: of this would be that where God tells Abraham not
[3:22:58] Speaker 5: to kill Isaac, it's not a prophecy, and and he
[3:23:02] Speaker 5: says that the Lord himself will provide a lamb. Man,
[3:23:06] Speaker 5: I really wish you guysouldt better points were in the thicket.
[3:23:10] Speaker 5: What's that said?
[3:23:10] Speaker 1: I really wish you guys would get new talking points.
[3:23:12] Speaker 1: These are really bad. They've been bad for two thousand years.
[3:23:15] Speaker 1: So the prophecy, prophecy, the prediction in that chapter is
[3:23:20] Speaker 1: just something Abraham is using to pacify Isaac, so he
[3:23:24] Speaker 1: doesn't know he's going to get theoretically almost killed on
[3:23:27] Speaker 1: the altar. And God does provide. He provides a ram
[3:23:31] Speaker 1: caught in the thicket, which is why they name the mountain.
[3:23:34] Speaker 1: God will provide. He said God will provide, and then
[3:23:38] Speaker 1: God did provide. It just happened to be a ram,
[3:23:41] Speaker 1: not a lamb. It's not a prophecy about.
[3:23:44] Speaker 5: The Okay, so now who now, who is saying that
[3:23:50] Speaker 5: words don't mean words?
[3:23:51] Speaker 1: The words do mean words.
[3:23:53] Speaker 5: A lamb is not a ram. You were talking to
[3:23:55] Speaker 5: the last guy and saying, oh, words don't mean, don't
[3:23:57] Speaker 5: mean what they say they are. Yeah, yeah, So it's
[3:24:04] Speaker 5: not a prophecy.
[3:24:05] Speaker 1: By the way, I don't know why you're you're messed
[3:24:07] Speaker 1: up here. Abraham is going to kill his son, and
[3:24:11] Speaker 1: his son's like, Father, where's the lamb for the sacrifice?
[3:24:15] Speaker 1: And Abraham's like, don't worry, God will provide the lamb.
[3:24:18] Speaker 1: And then what happens. According to the story, they find
[3:24:21] Speaker 1: a ram caught in a thicket and they sacrifice that instead.
[3:24:25] Speaker 1: It wasn't any prophecy. It's just something Abraham said to
[3:24:29] Speaker 1: pacify his child so he didn't freak out about the
[3:24:32] Speaker 1: fact that he's about to get himself killed. Okay uh
[3:24:39] Speaker 1: And no, clearly it clearly was it clearly was. It
[3:24:44] Speaker 1: clearly was enough for Abraham because Abraham named the mountain
[3:24:48] Speaker 1: God will provide, So clearly Abraham assumed that. Clearly Abraham
[3:24:53] Speaker 1: assumed that God did provide the name.
[3:24:55] Speaker 5: Even the name of the mountain is instead of naming it,
[3:24:59] Speaker 5: God did provide. He said God will provide, and he did.
[3:25:03] Speaker 5: The future he's looking ahead.
[3:25:05] Speaker 1: No, no, No, No, I don't believe that the beginning,
[3:25:09] Speaker 1: not even clothes.
[3:25:11] Speaker 5: Absolutely looking ahead to something that will happen. He certainly
[3:25:15] Speaker 5: did not, just just as God spoke to Adam and
[3:25:18] Speaker 5: Eve in the garden saying that the seed of the woman.
[3:25:22] Speaker 1: Still not a prophecy that will just explanation for why
[3:25:25] Speaker 1: sakes crawling their belly.
[3:25:27] Speaker 6: That's it.
[3:25:29] Speaker 5: No, it's definitely something more than that, because somewhere else
[3:25:32] Speaker 5: in the Old Testament is is? Where else can you
[3:25:35] Speaker 5: tell me a place in the Old Testament where a
[3:25:38] Speaker 5: woman is said to have seed?
[3:25:40] Speaker 1: Yeah? Every time it talks about the offspring of a woman,
[3:25:43] Speaker 1: it says seed every single time.
[3:25:48] Speaker 5: Oh doesn't yep? Sure does show me one?
[3:25:52] Speaker 1: Which one you want to see? You want to see
[3:25:53] Speaker 1: one in Genesis?
[3:25:56] Speaker 5: Sure? Okay, another seed of the woman?
[3:26:01] Speaker 1: No, but I typed it wrong. Okay, the next one
[3:26:08] Speaker 1: is gonna be Genesis twelve seven. In fact, Sarah's name, Zira,
[3:26:12] Speaker 1: means seed in Hebrew. That's literally what it means.
[3:26:17] Speaker 5: This Genesis twelve seven. Yeah, So is that the best
[3:26:27] Speaker 5: you've got right there?
[3:26:29] Speaker 1: No, there's like a hundred of them, just as twelve
[3:26:32] Speaker 1: seven Descendants is Zira seed? Sorry, my screen is not
[3:26:37] Speaker 1: showing it. Let me scoot over.
[3:26:41] Speaker 5: This is the right word appeared to Abram and said
[3:26:43] Speaker 5: to your offspring, I will give this land. Yeah, that's Abram.
[3:26:48] Speaker 5: That's not Sarah.
[3:26:49] Speaker 1: I'm not saying Sarah. I'm saying the word seed means descendants.
[3:26:58] Speaker 5: Right, And I'm asking you to point out to me
[3:27:00] Speaker 5: a place where a woman is set where there's hundreds
[3:27:04] Speaker 5: of genealogies in the Old Testament, hundreds of places where
[3:27:08] Speaker 5: we could find another seed of a woman. But that
[3:27:11] Speaker 5: phrase is reserved for the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
[3:27:15] Speaker 1: It certainly is not reserved for the virgin birth of anybody.
[3:27:18] Speaker 1: The word seed shows up in the Old Testament hundreds
[3:27:22] Speaker 1: of times referring to the offspring of men and women.
[3:27:29] Speaker 5: It never refers to the offspring of a woman.
[3:27:32] Speaker 1: It certainly does her seed. Yes, I just asked you.
[3:27:37] Speaker 5: To show me one, and you showed me one where
[3:27:39] Speaker 5: it talks about Abraham's seed.
[3:27:41] Speaker 1: You didn't ask me to show you one where it
[3:27:43] Speaker 1: says her seed. I was showing you where a seed
[3:27:46] Speaker 1: just means a person's offspring, and so you could go
[3:27:50] Speaker 1: to justis sixteen.
[3:27:51] Speaker 5: Ten, Okay, sixteen ten shows us a woman succeed.
[3:28:00] Speaker 1: Yep, says Angela. Lord said to her, I will so
[3:28:05] Speaker 1: greatly multiply your offspring, referring to Hagar.
[3:28:09] Speaker 5: So that they cannot be numbered for multitude.
[3:28:13] Speaker 1: Same words said to her.
[3:28:15] Speaker 5: Okay, is it or is it in the same tense?
[3:28:21] Speaker 1: No, it's not tense. It's not a verb.
[3:28:24] Speaker 5: Okay, No, like like is it? Excuse me? Like? Is
[3:28:31] Speaker 5: it multiple? Or is it singular?
[3:28:35] Speaker 1: Good question, because either it's a collective noun. It's a
[3:28:38] Speaker 1: collective noun.
[3:28:43] Speaker 5: Right in our language, it's a collective now.
[3:28:45] Speaker 1: No, in Hebrew it's a collective noun.
[3:28:51] Speaker 5: Because they Okay, that's interesting because of the New Testament.
[3:28:57] Speaker 5: They make a specific point of about the fact that
[3:28:59] Speaker 5: it's not a plural word in Genesis. I know because
[3:29:03] Speaker 5: it's not a singular.
[3:29:03] Speaker 1: Because it's it's a collective, like the word cloud. Cloud
[3:29:07] Speaker 1: is a collective noun in Hebrew.
[3:29:16] Speaker 5: A cloud is a collective. Now yeah, it wouldn't.
[3:29:21] Speaker 4: Oh, okay, Genesis twenty four to sixty.
[3:29:26] Speaker 1: Justis twenty four to sixty? Will grab it real quick?
[3:29:30] Speaker 1: Why is my browser freezing? Right now?
[3:29:32] Speaker 4: There we go, But I gotta go back to that.
[3:29:35] Speaker 4: Abraham and Isaac think, why is it that a lamb
[3:29:40] Speaker 4: or a ram is not close enough to a lamb,
[3:29:41] Speaker 4: but a human being is a close enough match.
[3:29:44] Speaker 1: And that's actually a really good point mac So, Joe,
[3:29:46] Speaker 1: here's the question. Why do you think a ram is
[3:29:49] Speaker 1: not close enough as a sacrifice to a lamb, but
[3:29:51] Speaker 1: you think a human being is.
[3:29:58] Speaker 5: Us so typify Oh so, now it's a metaphors takes
[3:30:03] Speaker 5: takes the place of a lamb, but we're shown we're
[3:30:05] Speaker 5: shown the exact same metaphor with the City of Refuges.
[3:30:11] Speaker 5: Someone guilty of murder on accident can flee there, and
[3:30:16] Speaker 5: if they leave there they are subject to vengeance. But
[3:30:19] Speaker 5: once the high Priest, who is a human dies, they're
[3:30:23] Speaker 5: free to go back to their homeland and they can't
[3:30:25] Speaker 5: be killed. So again, it's prefiguring. This the shadow of
[3:30:30] Speaker 5: Oh wait, a human death is what is what can
[3:30:36] Speaker 5: set this person free from their guilt.
[3:30:38] Speaker 1: The priest is not dying for the sins of that person.
[3:30:42] Speaker 1: That's preposterous.
[3:30:43] Speaker 5: You're right, he's not dying. He's not dying for the
[3:30:45] Speaker 5: sins of the person. But it's a prefigurement.
[3:30:48] Speaker 1: It's certainly not why Why would is a prefigurement? Is nonsensical?
[3:30:54] Speaker 1: Things that Christians make up because there's no actual prophecies
[3:30:58] Speaker 1: Jesus fulfilled. And I want to say it twice. I
[3:31:00] Speaker 1: want you to hear it. There's not a single literal,
[3:31:04] Speaker 1: actual prophecy that Jesus fulfilled, which is why you have
[3:31:07] Speaker 1: to go to nonsense things and say, oh, it prefigured Christ.
[3:31:12] Speaker 1: That's meaningless. I've gone through the Bible and I've actually
[3:31:15] Speaker 1: made a list of dozens of things that prefigured me,
[3:31:18] Speaker 1: prophecies that talk about me, but you don't think they're
[3:31:21] Speaker 1: about me, right. Prefigurings are dumb. It's the sharpshooter fallacy.
[3:31:25] Speaker 1: You're starting with the conclusion and then you're going back
[3:31:28] Speaker 1: and you're saying, oh, here's some things that sound like
[3:31:30] Speaker 1: my already held conclusion.
[3:31:37] Speaker 5: Okay, So in your I mean is, would you say
[3:31:45] Speaker 5: that the Bible is very, very symbolic in nature or
[3:31:49] Speaker 5: do you think it's all just literal. There's no symbolism
[3:31:55] Speaker 5: in there. There's no reason whatsoever why these doves were
[3:32:01] Speaker 5: supposed to be killed over water. There's no reason in
[3:32:03] Speaker 5: the world why the entrails were to be washed. There's
[3:32:07] Speaker 5: no symbolism in scripture. It's all just this arbitrary, cranky
[3:32:15] Speaker 5: God making up these rules. Is that your view of
[3:32:18] Speaker 5: the scripture?
[3:32:19] Speaker 1: Well, you only used the laws as a representation of
[3:32:22] Speaker 1: all of the scriptures, so it's a malformed question. The
[3:32:26] Speaker 1: laws in the Old Testament are contemporaneous with other laws
[3:32:30] Speaker 1: from other countries, giving the exact same instructions. Most of
[3:32:34] Speaker 1: the laws that I can find for the sacrifices are
[3:32:37] Speaker 1: paralleled in Egypt, in Hittite territory, in Mari, in Babylon,
[3:32:43] Speaker 1: in Sumer. What the Old Testament laws were doing were
[3:32:47] Speaker 1: identical to what all of their neighbors were doing. They
[3:32:50] Speaker 1: just inserted their God in their Also, did you know
[3:32:53] Speaker 1: that there is a scapegoat ritual in the Assyrian chronicles
[3:32:58] Speaker 1: and in the Hittite literature. I did not know that
[3:33:05] Speaker 1: all of these sacrificial laws are paralleled in the rest
[3:33:09] Speaker 1: of the ancient Near East. But because Christians don't know
[3:33:12] Speaker 1: that and they don't know what to make of it,
[3:33:14] Speaker 1: they're like, well, it must be foreshadowing of Jesus. No,
[3:33:17] Speaker 1: it's just another ancient blood cult, that's it. It's one
[3:33:21] Speaker 1: of many.
[3:33:25] Speaker 5: Okay, I know it is significantly different in that God
[3:33:32] Speaker 5: forbade child sacrifice.
[3:33:36] Speaker 1: It didn't even cross his mind in Jeremiah to.
[3:33:38] Speaker 5: That part of the world. Yeah, that's so, that's a way.
[3:33:44] Speaker 5: That's a way for God to to point out that
[3:33:48] Speaker 5: we are to do those things that he says that
[3:33:51] Speaker 5: he comes to mind, were not to be innovative in
[3:33:54] Speaker 5: our worship and religion. Have to do what he tells
[3:33:57] Speaker 5: us to do. Have you numbers come up with our
[3:33:59] Speaker 5: own things?
[3:34:00] Speaker 1: You've never seen the contradiction and God saying that it's
[3:34:03] Speaker 1: evil to sacrifice your children and then in the same
[3:34:06] Speaker 1: breath says I'm going to sacrifice my children as a
[3:34:08] Speaker 1: solution for all of humanity's problems.
[3:34:12] Speaker 5: That's crazy, right, So do you think do you think
[3:34:19] Speaker 5: there's any reason or in a Christian's mind, do you
[3:34:23] Speaker 5: think there's any difference between a regular, non consenting human
[3:34:28] Speaker 5: child and the creator of the universe taking on the
[3:34:33] Speaker 5: form of a human and dying. Do you think there's
[3:34:35] Speaker 5: any difference in our mind between those.
[3:34:37] Speaker 1: There has to be, because the book says so when
[3:34:39] Speaker 1: Jesus is in the garden, he literally prays, take this
[3:34:42] Speaker 1: cup from me, but he ends with your will be done,
[3:34:45] Speaker 1: not mine, meaning Jesus's will was to not die, but
[3:34:48] Speaker 1: he gave in to what the Father wanted. Him to
[3:34:51] Speaker 1: do so. They have two separate wills, which means they're
[3:34:54] Speaker 1: not the same person. Jesus even said the Father is
[3:34:57] Speaker 1: greater than I am.
[3:35:00] Speaker 5: Oh, my goodness. I can go with the Muslim arguments.
[3:35:02] Speaker 1: I'm going to go with the Bible arguments. The trinity
[3:35:06] Speaker 1: is foolish nonsense. Jesus cannot be one hundred percent God
[3:35:09] Speaker 1: and one hundred percent man. Well, first out of they is.
[3:35:15] Speaker 5: The only reason the universe holds together.
[3:35:17] Speaker 1: No, the trinity is an incoherent mess. The trinity is.
[3:35:20] Speaker 5: The Trinity is the reason that we as humans understand
[3:35:24] Speaker 5: the many and the one.
[3:35:25] Speaker 1: It's adorable that you think that, but that's bullshit.
[3:35:27] Speaker 5: The Trinity is the reason that there is that all
[3:35:33] Speaker 5: of life around us requires more than one, except for earthworms,
[3:35:37] Speaker 5: I guess to reproduce.
[3:35:40] Speaker 1: That's an incoherent string of gibbras. Trinity is.
[3:35:44] Speaker 5: The Trinity is the reason that we have it that
[3:35:47] Speaker 5: the three things that the universe is made up of
[3:35:49] Speaker 5: are all three part things.
[3:35:51] Speaker 1: I could literally say, I could say everything you're saying
[3:35:54] Speaker 1: about the rock on my shelf behind me, Doug. The
[3:35:57] Speaker 1: rock is the reason why the universe is held together, Dug.
[3:36:00] Speaker 1: The rock is why there's hair on my head, Doug.
[3:36:03] Speaker 1: The rock is why there's anything intelligent. You can insert
[3:36:06] Speaker 1: anything into this nonsensical argument. It's a dumb argument and
[3:36:09] Speaker 1: it doesn't work because the trinity is illogical. We want
[3:36:12] Speaker 1: to hear my premise for this. No, so, so you
[3:36:17] Speaker 1: misunderstood about the trinity is a logical drill.
[3:36:22] Speaker 6: That is that.
[3:36:24] Speaker 5: It is not illogical.
[3:36:25] Speaker 1: It is you want me to prove it.
[3:36:27] Speaker 5: Impossible to fully comprehend. It is impossible to fully comprehend.
[3:36:30] Speaker 5: It's illogically logical. You can't comprehend it because it's illogical.
[3:36:33] Speaker 1: It's contradictory.
[3:36:34] Speaker 5: Let me ask you something, is it I'll just give.
[3:36:35] Speaker 1: You a premise number one. So to be one hundred
[3:36:38] Speaker 1: percent of something, you must contain all of its properties?
[3:36:41] Speaker 4: Yes or no?
[3:36:43] Speaker 2: Okay?
[3:36:44] Speaker 1: Yes? Okay? So like yeah, if I said this is
[3:36:47] Speaker 1: one hundred percent pen, that means that it has all
[3:36:50] Speaker 1: the properties of a pen. Right, mm hm, that's right, fantastic.
[3:36:55] Speaker 1: Now if I take this pen apart, okay, and I'm
[3:36:59] Speaker 1: going to take the inside, I'm gonna take the ink
[3:37:02] Speaker 1: out of it. I'm gonna put it down here, is
[3:37:05] Speaker 1: this still one hundred per pen?
[3:37:12] Speaker 5: I'm not sure I follow your analogy.
[3:37:14] Speaker 1: I mean, is this one.
[3:37:18] Speaker 5: This I don't know if analogy, but okay, So if
[3:37:25] Speaker 5: if a pen necessarily includes the ink, then no, it's
[3:37:28] Speaker 5: not one hundred percent.
[3:37:29] Speaker 1: Okay, Okay. In order for a pen to be a pen,
[3:37:31] Speaker 1: it needs the necessary items that make it a pen,
[3:37:33] Speaker 1: namely the properties of a pen. And a required property
[3:37:38] Speaker 1: of a pen is in fact, that it has ink.
[3:37:40] Speaker 1: That's what pens do. Easy enough, Okay, So in order
[3:37:43] Speaker 1: to be something, you need one hundred percent of the
[3:37:45] Speaker 1: properties that make that something something. Now, Premise number two then,
[3:37:50] Speaker 1: is that God is all knowing, He's got the omniproperties,
[3:37:55] Speaker 1: he's all knowing, he's all present, so on and so forth. Correct. Correct, Okay.
[3:38:02] Speaker 1: Premise number three, Jesus is neither omnipresent nor omniscient, which
[3:38:08] Speaker 1: means conclusion, he's not one hundred percent God. He can
[3:38:11] Speaker 1: only be partially God, or he can be a different God.
[3:38:20] Speaker 5: Okay, So you don't I think the reason you're confused
[3:38:24] Speaker 5: about this is because you don't believe that there is
[3:38:26] Speaker 5: such a thing, even as a spiritual realm.
[3:38:29] Speaker 1: Nope, it's because it lacks the Bible.
[3:38:31] Speaker 5: Here in the Bible makes it clear. The Bible makes
[3:38:34] Speaker 5: it clear that man is both material and immaterial.
[3:38:39] Speaker 1: Are you gonna say God has part time no good
[3:38:43] Speaker 1: because that's a heresy that was weeded out way early. Okay,
[3:38:47] Speaker 1: So you can't be one hundred percent God and then
[3:38:50] Speaker 1: lack the properties of God. You could be partially God,
[3:38:55] Speaker 1: you could be eighty percent God, but you can't be
[3:38:57] Speaker 1: one hundred percent God.
[3:39:05] Speaker 5: So what what makes you think Jesus lacked the properties because.
[3:39:08] Speaker 1: He said so. He says there are things he doesn't
[3:39:11] Speaker 1: even know. He says of his the data reachar return,
[3:39:13] Speaker 1: only his father in Heaven knows, which means he lacks omniscience.
[3:39:19] Speaker 1: He doesn't know all things.
[3:39:20] Speaker 3: He's not God.
[3:39:23] Speaker 5: Okay, you know the Hebrew context of that, right, I
[3:39:27] Speaker 5: know the.
[3:39:27] Speaker 1: Logical context of what it means to not know something.
[3:39:31] Speaker 1: It means there's something you don't know.
[3:39:37] Speaker 5: So in Hebrew culture, a person before they would be
[3:39:41] Speaker 5: married would have to go out and build a house
[3:39:45] Speaker 5: as a bride no, and the father would come.
[3:39:48] Speaker 1: That's not real. That's that's not no, that's old life tale.
[3:39:53] Speaker 1: That's something you found in your grandma's email forwards. That's
[3:39:55] Speaker 1: not real.
[3:39:59] Speaker 5: Okay, So I'm going to go with it.
[3:40:01] Speaker 1: Where did where did Rebecca go when she married Isaac?
[3:40:06] Speaker 5: She went to his father's house, his mother's house.
[3:40:09] Speaker 1: Well, mother just died, sorry, father's house. Yeah, he didn't
[3:40:14] Speaker 1: go out and build a house for Rebecca. Come on,
[3:40:18] Speaker 1: it's nonsense.
[3:40:19] Speaker 5: So that's like fifteen hundred years before the time of Jesus.
[3:40:22] Speaker 1: The Song of Solomon says, the Song of Solomon's it
[3:40:24] Speaker 1: talks about her being brought to her his mother's house.
[3:40:29] Speaker 1: I mean this, this idea that you're going to go
[3:40:32] Speaker 1: out and build your own house before you bring your
[3:40:35] Speaker 1: bride home, is not in Hebrew culture. It's a cute sentiment.
[3:40:44] Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I contend that.
[3:40:46] Speaker 2: I contend that.
[3:40:49] Speaker 5: There's enough going on with the father and the son
[3:40:52] Speaker 5: and the secrecy and the fact that he says, I
[3:40:54] Speaker 5: go to prepare a place for you, and that you
[3:40:59] Speaker 5: he's talking to his disciples, the bride of Christ. It
[3:41:02] Speaker 5: definitely lends itself to the whole idea of a mutually
[3:41:07] Speaker 5: agreed upon surprise of the father and the son, and
[3:41:10] Speaker 5: how he would choose to let himself be surprised about
[3:41:14] Speaker 5: when he's going to come again for his for his bride,
[3:41:17] Speaker 5: just as God says that he he doesn't. In Psalmn one,
[3:41:22] Speaker 5: it says that he doesn't know the way of the wicked.
[3:41:26] Speaker 5: Of course God knows the way of the wicked.
[3:41:27] Speaker 1: Jesus doesn't.
[3:41:28] Speaker 5: But there's a stent, there's enough, there's an effect. There's well.
[3:41:31] Speaker 5: If if the Yahweh and the Old Testament can claim
[3:41:35] Speaker 5: to not know the way of the wicked in some sense,
[3:41:39] Speaker 5: Jesus of the New Testament, who is Yahweh oh, he's
[3:41:41] Speaker 5: certainly not, can claim in one sense he certainly is yahwe.
[3:41:44] Speaker 1: Oh, he's absolutely not. Isaiah says that to the second.
[3:41:50] Speaker 1: Isaiah says that every knee will bow to the name
[3:41:52] Speaker 1: of Yahweh, not to the name of Jesus. Jesus is
[3:41:57] Speaker 1: not Yahweh. He praised your direction.
[3:42:01] Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
[3:42:02] Speaker 1: You don't pray to yourself unless you're schizophrenic.
[3:42:06] Speaker 5: So you misunderstand the trinity if you think Jesus was
[3:42:10] Speaker 5: praying to himself.
[3:42:11] Speaker 1: Oh, no, you misunderstand. The illogical necessity of the trinity
[3:42:15] Speaker 1: is that all things have been handed over to me
[3:42:17] Speaker 1: by my father, which means there are things he does
[3:42:20] Speaker 1: not have that only his father has, which means he
[3:42:23] Speaker 1: is not his father. He is not one hundred percent God.
[3:42:27] Speaker 1: If he does not have everything that.
[3:42:29] Speaker 5: Just said, he is very good. You just said that
[3:42:31] Speaker 5: he is not his father.
[3:42:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not Yahweh. You were assuming just a moment
[3:42:34] Speaker 1: ago his father is Yahweh, and he's not Yahweh.
[3:42:39] Speaker 5: He is also Yahweh.
[3:42:40] Speaker 1: He's then he's praying to himself.
[3:42:44] Speaker 5: He is praying to another person, Yaweh, who is also Yahweh.
[3:42:48] Speaker 5: Yah Yahweh is not.
[3:42:49] Speaker 1: No, Yahweh is a person, Yahweh.
[3:42:52] Speaker 5: Yahweh. Yahweh is the name of the Godhead.
[3:42:57] Speaker 1: A person.
[3:42:58] Speaker 5: Yahweh is the Yahweh is the collective name.
[3:43:01] Speaker 1: A person God.
[3:43:02] Speaker 5: No, it's not, Yes, it is. It's certainly in Genesis.
[3:43:07] Speaker 5: Do you not remember in Genesis where the Lord comes
[3:43:12] Speaker 5: down to rain down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah.
[3:43:15] Speaker 1: Chapter it says nineteen Sure, it says the Lord reigned
[3:43:20] Speaker 1: down fire from heaven from from Yahweh.
[3:43:25] Speaker 5: The Lord, chapter nineteen eleven.
[3:43:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not gonna like this one either, Joe. I
[3:43:30] Speaker 1: don't know why you think any of these talking points
[3:43:32] Speaker 1: are going to work. I've heard all of them a
[3:43:34] Speaker 1: million times. The Jewish rabbis addressed this like twelve hundred
[3:43:41] Speaker 1: years ago. It's an easy fit.
[3:43:43] Speaker 5: And they call it the second power, the second power
[3:43:46] Speaker 5: in heaven.
[3:43:46] Speaker 1: No, they don't.
[3:43:47] Speaker 5: There's a huge there was a huge debate among the
[3:43:50] Speaker 5: rabbis about this. There certainly was this double power in heaven. Nope,
[3:43:56] Speaker 5: all right, Jen, what what is the Genesis nineteen?
[3:43:59] Speaker 1: In Genesis ninety, I don't know exactly which verse. I'm
[3:44:01] Speaker 1: sure you'll pull it up pretty quick, somewhere on like
[3:44:11] Speaker 1: twenty three or twenty four or something like that.
[3:44:20] Speaker 5: Yes, the sun had risen on the earth when lock
[3:44:23] Speaker 5: came to Zor. Then the Lord reigned on Sodom and
[3:44:26] Speaker 5: more a sulfur and fire from the Lord.
[3:44:29] Speaker 1: Oh right, nineteen twenty four, see my memories. Yeah, it
[3:44:33] Speaker 1: is a weird got a weird place you'll trap my friend. Okay,
[3:44:36] Speaker 1: So Genesis nineteen twenty four, What do you think is
[3:44:41] Speaker 1: happening here?
[3:44:45] Speaker 5: I think the Lord was Yahweh, visited Abraham m hm.
[3:44:50] Speaker 1: And then then where'd you go to? Then he went
[3:44:53] Speaker 1: down to Sodom? No, wrong again, there were righteous people there. Nope,
[3:44:57] Speaker 1: read Genesis eighteen. You missed it. Just is eighteen. He
[3:45:02] Speaker 1: turns around and goes back. The two angels go on
[3:45:05] Speaker 1: his behalf to Sodom. He turns back, and Genesis eighteen,
[3:45:10] Speaker 1: the two angels go on yahways stays behind to have
[3:45:13] Speaker 1: a conversation with Abraham. It says the men turned from
[3:45:17] Speaker 1: there and went towards Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before
[3:45:21] Speaker 1: the Lord. Then Abraham came near and said, well, you
[3:45:23] Speaker 1: indeed sweep away, And then they have the whole conversation.
[3:45:26] Speaker 1: Then that's it. And then it says, and the Lord
[3:45:29] Speaker 1: went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham
[3:45:31] Speaker 1: and returned to his place. He went home.
[3:45:35] Speaker 5: He's an Abraham, It says, Abraham returns to his place.
[3:45:39] Speaker 1: No, no, it says the Lord went his way, and
[3:45:42] Speaker 1: when he had finished speaking to Abraham and Abraham returned, Oh,
[3:45:46] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Abraham. I apologized. Abraham returned to his place.
[3:45:49] Speaker 1: I think both of them returned to their place, both
[3:45:52] Speaker 1: of them.
[3:45:55] Speaker 5: It just says the Lord went his way, and I
[3:45:56] Speaker 5: think his way led him down to Sodom and Goodmor.
[3:45:59] Speaker 1: It was not because they're there are two men in
[3:46:01] Speaker 1: Sodham and Gomora, and not three. There are not three
[3:46:08] Speaker 1: angels in Sodom. There are only two.
[3:46:10] Speaker 5: I agree, I agree they did not. I agree. It
[3:46:11] Speaker 5: looks like so Yahweh.
[3:46:13] Speaker 1: Wasn't with them, So the two angels went on to Sodom.
[3:46:16] Speaker 1: Yahweh went back home. He scampered off.
[3:46:21] Speaker 5: Because he says, get up out of this place, for
[3:46:29] Speaker 5: the Lord in verse fourteen is about to destroy the city.
[3:46:33] Speaker 5: I'm sorry, that's that's when he's talking his sons and off.
[3:46:40] Speaker 1: Yahweh did rain fire down from heaven because he was there.
[3:46:48] Speaker 5: Okay, Yaohweh previously with Abraham.
[3:46:52] Speaker 1: Yep, Yahweh visited Abraham with in a.
[3:46:56] Speaker 5: Particular Okay, So so Yahweh visited Abraham in a particular place,
[3:47:02] Speaker 5: just like Yahweh visited Bethlehem and the Virgin Mary in
[3:47:06] Speaker 5: a particular place.
[3:47:07] Speaker 1: But just as an angel, and Yahweh remained this as
[3:47:10] Speaker 1: an angel was giving the message to the Mary.
[3:47:16] Speaker 5: It's absolutely no, no, I'm talking about Jesus. I'm talking
[3:47:20] Speaker 5: about how.
[3:47:21] Speaker 1: Yahweh Jesus wasn't there yet.
[3:47:22] Speaker 5: Jesus, I know Jesus was not born yet in in
[3:47:27] Speaker 5: Genesis nineteen. I understand that what I'm telling to you
[3:47:31] Speaker 5: is that in the exact same way that Yahweh came
[3:47:33] Speaker 5: down and ate with Abraham and then went his way,
[3:47:39] Speaker 5: in that exact same sense, Yahweh come, came down, the
[3:47:43] Speaker 5: Word of God came down, became flesh.
[3:47:45] Speaker 1: Well, Yahweh isn't the word of God. And the word
[3:47:50] Speaker 1: of Yahweh is the word of God. Is a part
[3:47:54] Speaker 1: of Yahweh.
[3:47:55] Speaker 5: The Holy Spirit in the Holy Spirit is yeah, not
[3:47:58] Speaker 5: a part. No, person, it's a part of yaway the word.
[3:48:03] Speaker 5: The word is a person.
[3:48:06] Speaker 1: No, the word is an attribute the Yahweh wrong again.
[3:48:10] Speaker 5: The word is not an attribute.
[3:48:11] Speaker 1: It's an attribute. The word is is something that comes
[3:48:14] Speaker 1: out of his mouth.
[3:48:22] Speaker 5: But it's a But the word is a person, No,
[3:48:25] Speaker 5: because it's not a person. In John, in John one,
[3:48:29] Speaker 5: it clearly states that the Word of.
[3:48:30] Speaker 4: God we all know was with God.
[3:48:33] Speaker 5: He was with God.
[3:48:34] Speaker 1: And which is in coherent because a word is not
[3:48:39] Speaker 1: a person. A word is a property of something. A
[3:48:44] Speaker 1: word is something that comes out of your mouth. It
[3:48:46] Speaker 1: is not a person. The New Testament idea of a
[3:48:49] Speaker 1: trinity is incoherent. It's logically absurd.
[3:48:53] Speaker 5: So you're so, are you speaking to Joe or are
[3:48:56] Speaker 5: you speaking to Joe's word which is separate from Joe?
[3:48:58] Speaker 5: Or am I in my words?
[3:49:00] Speaker 1: One? Neither your Your words are something you're producing. Your
[3:49:05] Speaker 1: words are not you Your words are not a person.
[3:49:09] Speaker 1: Your words are something that you're manifesting from your mouth.
[3:49:15] Speaker 5: Okay, your words are the exact representation of yourself, bullshit moment,
[3:49:22] Speaker 5: Absolutely they are. Why do people go to jail for
[3:49:24] Speaker 5: their words? It's not a representation of who you are.
[3:49:29] Speaker 1: A word is something that happens when you flap your
[3:49:31] Speaker 1: lips and our atmosphere moves, which is another problem. God
[3:49:35] Speaker 1: couldn't have spoken before he created the world because you
[3:49:38] Speaker 1: need atmosphere to for sound to travel. It's crazy. Nothing
[3:49:42] Speaker 1: in this nothing in this book is sensible.
[3:49:47] Speaker 3: Okay.
[3:49:47] Speaker 5: So if you threaten to unalive a certain prominent politician,
[3:49:54] Speaker 5: why are they going to throw your body in jail?
[3:49:56] Speaker 1: Because I if it's just your words, because I committed
[3:50:00] Speaker 1: a crime.
[3:50:02] Speaker 5: Okay, But why in the world, why would we make
[3:50:05] Speaker 5: it a crime?
[3:50:05] Speaker 1: Because we decided as a people group that threatening political
[3:50:10] Speaker 1: figures with violence is criminal. We made that decision. We said,
[3:50:13] Speaker 1: if you do that, you will be punished.
[3:50:20] Speaker 5: No, I think you and I both know when your
[3:50:22] Speaker 5: your audience knows that the word, my word is the
[3:50:27] Speaker 5: representation of myself, it certainly is not. It is it
[3:50:31] Speaker 5: is me.
[3:50:32] Speaker 1: Okay, So do people who can't speak not have a
[3:50:34] Speaker 1: representation of themselves.
[3:50:36] Speaker 5: They can still have a word.
[3:50:38] Speaker 1: My son, my son can't speak, what's his representation?
[3:50:44] Speaker 5: Uh, he doesn't have one yet?
[3:50:46] Speaker 1: Is he ever going to get one?
[3:50:49] Speaker 5: Absolutely?
[3:50:49] Speaker 1: But when?
[3:50:52] Speaker 2: What if?
[3:50:52] Speaker 5: What if you never speak? And when he can, when
[3:50:55] Speaker 5: he can garble? Or what is your son's getting or
[3:50:58] Speaker 5: not getting a representation? Should have to do with whether
[3:51:01] Speaker 5: our word is our representation or not, because you're.
[3:51:03] Speaker 1: Saying our word is equal to us and it's simply not.
[3:51:07] Speaker 1: A word is something that you do with your face,
[3:51:11] Speaker 1: like eat, yes, and and what what? A word is
[3:51:18] Speaker 1: a description of something you're producing, Like if I cook
[3:51:22] Speaker 1: a meal and I made I made a meal. If
[3:51:26] Speaker 1: I speak with my mouth, I made a word. It's
[3:51:29] Speaker 1: a production of the physical reality that we live in.
[3:51:33] Speaker 1: It's not an identity.
[3:51:37] Speaker 5: Oh oh okay, I got you. Yeah, it's not. It's
[3:51:39] Speaker 5: it's not its own unique identity, but it is.
[3:51:43] Speaker 1: It's not sentient either. Words don't have sentience, correct my words,
[3:51:48] Speaker 1: so then so then it can't be a person. Words
[3:51:51] Speaker 1: can't be people.
[3:51:54] Speaker 5: The words of the Word of God is a person.
[3:51:57] Speaker 1: It's certainly not said.
[3:52:01] Speaker 5: I said my word is not a person, but it
[3:52:03] Speaker 5: is a person. My Okay, oh boy, we're going around circles.
[3:52:12] Speaker 5: But but where were we?
[3:52:16] Speaker 1: I think you got I think you got lost in
[3:52:18] Speaker 1: the circles. You're talking in.
[3:52:22] Speaker 5: I'm not talking in circles. You you start talking about
[3:52:24] Speaker 5: the trinity being Trinity is?
[3:52:26] Speaker 1: Can I want to ask you incoherent gibberish?
[3:52:30] Speaker 5: Okay? Can I ask you a a simple question about
[3:52:35] Speaker 5: three things that the universe is made up of? I
[3:52:42] Speaker 5: would like you to calculate the odds of this being
[3:52:47] Speaker 5: true without the God of the Bible being true? The okay,
[3:52:55] Speaker 5: the no, no, no, don't take my calculator. Here's the question.
[3:53:01] Speaker 1: It's one. By the way, in actual statistics, I think
[3:53:04] Speaker 1: is represented by a one.
[3:53:08] Speaker 5: Okay, what are the odds that the three things we
[3:53:11] Speaker 5: know our universe is made up of? Time, space, and matter?
[3:53:15] Speaker 5: What are the odds that all three of those things
[3:53:17] Speaker 5: have three dimensions to them?
[3:53:19] Speaker 1: Oh? They don't, They've got.
[3:53:22] Speaker 5: I'm as past president of future Space is measured in
[3:53:26] Speaker 5: three dimensions.
[3:53:27] Speaker 1: There are more than three dimensions.
[3:53:28] Speaker 5: By the way matter is and matter is in three forms,
[3:53:31] Speaker 5: you can't prove that there's more than three dimensions.
[3:53:33] Speaker 1: Yeah, there are. Doctor Blitz wrote a PhD on it.
[3:53:37] Speaker 5: There are there are a minimum of four dimension theoretical PhD.
[3:53:41] Speaker 5: We know, we know that there are three dimensions that
[3:53:44] Speaker 5: we work with every single day.
[3:53:45] Speaker 1: Oh I disagree.
[3:53:46] Speaker 5: And those those are what those are what we what
[3:53:49] Speaker 5: we live and breathe and move in is.
[3:53:54] Speaker 1: That's that's a state of matter. But you're right that
[3:53:57] Speaker 1: we've got more than three states of matter, by the way,
[3:53:59] Speaker 1: you know that, right? What's the fourth state of plasma
[3:54:04] Speaker 1: is a state of matter?
[3:54:05] Speaker 4: Right?
[3:54:07] Speaker 5: I think plasma is a particular type of matter, isn't it.
[3:54:10] Speaker 1: It's a state of matter.
[3:54:11] Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a state. Are you sure about that?
[3:54:16] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm positive about it. I'm electrical engineering. I know
[3:54:18] Speaker 1: about plasma.
[3:54:20] Speaker 5: Okay, what does it take to get something to plasma?
[3:54:23] Speaker 1: Ionized gases?
[3:54:31] Speaker 5: Ionized gases is where it takes to get something to plasma.
[3:54:35] Speaker 5: Can okay, can anything be plasma?
[3:54:37] Speaker 1: Oh no, not anything, nope.
[3:54:41] Speaker 2: Okay.
[3:54:41] Speaker 5: So it's just a very small select group of very
[3:54:47] Speaker 5: unique particles can be this other state.
[3:54:49] Speaker 1: Oh no, not unique at all. No, A lot of
[3:54:52] Speaker 1: elements can be ionized. Just just google the fourth state
[3:54:57] Speaker 1: of matters an obscure your science fact?
[3:55:08] Speaker 5: All right, Joe?
[3:55:11] Speaker 1: I think I think you're a kind individual. And here's
[3:55:15] Speaker 1: here's the fallout between your worldview and my worldview. Okay,
[3:55:19] Speaker 1: I've studied lots of academic resources when considering these talking points.
[3:55:26] Speaker 1: You haven't yet You're still unlike the answers in Genesis level,
[3:55:30] Speaker 1: so you don't know how bad these talking points are.
[3:55:32] Speaker 1: Yet you don't know that they're really really bad talking points.
[3:55:37] Speaker 1: And like even just a cursory reading of an academic
[3:55:41] Speaker 1: level text would easily dismiss any of these. In fact,
[3:55:44] Speaker 1: you could just pick up like a like a simple
[3:55:48] Speaker 1: like one one volume Bible commentary and academic Bible commentary
[3:55:52] Speaker 1: that will tell you everything that I just told you
[3:55:55] Speaker 1: and then give you additional resources that agree. Like you
[3:55:59] Speaker 1: just haven't engage with any of the academic literature, which
[3:56:02] Speaker 1: is why you're up here and you think you're giving
[3:56:04] Speaker 1: really good arguments. And everyone here who's got a little
[3:56:09] Speaker 1: bit of education in the Bible, and I'm not the
[3:56:10] Speaker 1: only one, put a one in the comments if you
[3:56:12] Speaker 1: went to Bible college or seminary, because everyone who's been
[3:56:16] Speaker 1: to Bible college and seminary has already explored all of
[3:56:19] Speaker 1: these talking points, and they don't even come close to
[3:56:23] Speaker 1: dealing with the academic literature on it. The academic literature
[3:56:26] Speaker 1: agrees with me. I didn't make this up. I'm agreeing
[3:56:29] Speaker 1: with the academic literature.
[3:56:35] Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, I mean that's that's fine. I'm not I
[3:56:38] Speaker 5: definitely you're right. I'm not educated. I can't argue with
[3:56:41] Speaker 5: you on the academic literature. I get little bits and
[3:56:44] Speaker 5: pieces here and there, there's no doubt about that.
[3:56:48] Speaker 1: But you could elevate your arguments. There are good talking
[3:56:51] Speaker 1: points for your position. You just don't have any of
[3:56:54] Speaker 1: them yet. Would you?
[3:57:00] Speaker 5: Would you be willing to have on your live chat
[3:57:02] Speaker 5: somebody who is qualified to talk or are you only
[3:57:06] Speaker 5: interested in talking to neophyte Christian No?
[3:57:08] Speaker 1: No, I will talk to anybody that gets in my
[3:57:10] Speaker 1: chat stream. I don't care who you are. I don't
[3:57:11] Speaker 1: care if you've got five PhDs. I'll talk to him.
[3:57:15] Speaker 5: Okay.
[3:57:15] Speaker 1: But the reason why by seminary professors and Bible college professors,
[3:57:19] Speaker 1: the reason why they don't come into these conversations because
[3:57:23] Speaker 1: they generally agree with me, and the ones who don't
[3:57:25] Speaker 1: agree with me are willing to accept that it's a
[3:57:28] Speaker 1: mysterious thing. That is, it's not founded in fact, it's
[3:57:33] Speaker 1: founded in faith. Right. I had a professor that said,
[3:57:37] Speaker 1: you either believe it on faith or you don't. You
[3:57:40] Speaker 1: can't prove it, it's not a fact, right, And that's
[3:57:43] Speaker 1: where most most I.
[3:57:44] Speaker 5: Would agree that you can't prove it. I would agree
[3:57:47] Speaker 5: that you can't prove it, But that doesn't make it
[3:57:49] Speaker 5: not a fact.
[3:57:50] Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it is a fact.
[3:57:51] Speaker 5: Not being able to prove something. Not being able to
[3:57:53] Speaker 5: prove something does not make something not a fact.
[3:57:55] Speaker 1: Right. But if you don't have evidence that it's true,
[3:57:58] Speaker 1: then you believe it on faith not in.
[3:57:59] Speaker 5: Fact, right or are you just you believe it on
[3:58:05] Speaker 5: I mean I'm believing it on apparently underdeveloped evidence.
[3:58:11] Speaker 1: That's what I would say. Yes, you've You've got what
[3:58:13] Speaker 1: I would say is poor evidence that you're you're you're
[3:58:18] Speaker 1: convinced by, but it doesn't convince most.
[3:58:21] Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well fair enough. Yeah. I still I still
[3:58:26] Speaker 5: think that the Bible. God's word makes absolutely the most
[3:58:30] Speaker 5: sense of the world that we find ourselves in.
[3:58:34] Speaker 1: It says you can own slave.
[3:58:35] Speaker 5: We all experience with sin.
[3:58:37] Speaker 1: What's that says you can own slaves? How is that sense?
[3:58:41] Speaker 5: We can go with that again if you want, did
[3:58:44] Speaker 5: did everybody in the time of the Bible own slaves.
[3:58:48] Speaker 1: No, did everybody at the time of the Antebellum South
[3:58:50] Speaker 1: owned slaves? Quite a few people did, Did everybody though,
[3:58:58] Speaker 1: most everybody? I mean they were all over No, it's
[3:59:00] Speaker 1: about fifty percent. I did the census record for the
[3:59:02] Speaker 1: state of Virginia, where my family's from, and about half
[3:59:05] Speaker 1: of the residents their own slaves. So about fifty percent.
[3:59:11] Speaker 5: Oh, I'm not talking about as far as everybody in America,
[3:59:14] Speaker 5: talking about all around the world.
[3:59:17] Speaker 1: I'm talking about America. Okay, does everybody have to own
[3:59:22] Speaker 1: a slave for it to be bad?
[3:59:28] Speaker 5: No, neither does everyone have to own a slave for
[3:59:31] Speaker 5: it to be good.
[3:59:32] Speaker 1: But I don't think it was ever good. I don't
[3:59:33] Speaker 1: think God, if all good, would say you can own
[3:59:36] Speaker 1: slaves ever.
[3:59:41] Speaker 5: Yeah. So I would say that the laws about slavery
[3:59:45] Speaker 5: are very similar to the laws about all sorts of
[3:59:48] Speaker 5: things that he gave to the people of Israel. Nothing
[3:59:51] Speaker 5: of what he gave to the people of Israel was
[3:59:53] Speaker 5: the ultimate with the ultimate goal.
[3:59:57] Speaker 1: Then why did he say, following this law would make
[3:59:59] Speaker 1: you good? Sea with God.
[4:00:03] Speaker 5: Would make you good and right? He didn't say that,
[4:00:05] Speaker 5: sure did He said, those those who Joe you should.
[4:00:10] Speaker 1: Know by now that I don't make claims about the
[4:00:11] Speaker 1: Bible that's.
[4:00:12] Speaker 5: Not in it. Okay, well, I would love to see
[4:00:15] Speaker 5: it in his context.
[4:00:17] Speaker 1: Do you know Arnemy Chapter twelve, Open twelve somewhere about
[4:00:23] Speaker 1: verse twenty eight somewhere in there, be careful to obey
[4:00:31] Speaker 1: all these words. I command you, so that it might
[4:00:33] Speaker 1: go well with you and with your children after you forever,
[4:00:36] Speaker 1: because you will be doing what is good and right
[4:00:37] Speaker 1: in the sight of the Lord your God. So owning
[4:00:41] Speaker 1: slaves is doing good and right in the sight of
[4:00:43] Speaker 1: the Lord your God. Psalm nineteen says the Lord, the
[4:00:53] Speaker 1: Lord is perfect, perfect, Oh right, right, yep, he tells
[4:00:59] Speaker 1: you in the same chapter. If you go back to
[4:01:01] Speaker 1: verses one and two, he says, to follow the thing forever.
[4:01:04] Speaker 1: These are the statutes and ordinances that you must diligently
[4:01:06] Speaker 1: observe in the land that the Lord, the God of
[4:01:08] Speaker 1: your ancestors, have given you to occupy all the days
[4:01:11] Speaker 1: that you live on the earth.
[4:01:18] Speaker 5: Okay, well, yeah, I guess I believe that what the
[4:01:24] Speaker 5: apostles taught that the law was given to be a
[4:01:26] Speaker 5: tutor to lead us to something far better than the law.
[4:01:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. Glatians three twenty three says that, but it is
[4:01:31] Speaker 1: a contradiction of the Old Testament. Old Testament says.
[4:01:33] Speaker 5: Do it forever right, and in Christ, I have done
[4:01:38] Speaker 5: it forever.
[4:01:39] Speaker 1: No, you certainly haven't.
[4:01:41] Speaker 5: He He has kept the law for me in my place,
[4:01:44] Speaker 5: and I'm counted as having kept the law. So Jesus
[4:01:47] Speaker 5: has slaves to extent, I am jesus slave.
[4:01:51] Speaker 1: Oh shit, So Jesus is okay with own slaves.
[4:01:56] Speaker 5: I am his happy slave.
[4:01:57] Speaker 1: Yeah. So slaver is condemned in the Old Testament and
[4:02:01] Speaker 1: the New Testament, then hooray for slavery.
[4:02:05] Speaker 5: Yes, slavery.
[4:02:08] Speaker 1: So what was wrong with slavery?
[4:02:10] Speaker 5: Slavery? It's not voluntary? Voluntary slavery, it's not voluntary. Voluntary
[4:02:14] Speaker 5: slavery is not voluntary, is Oh my slavery to christis voluntarer.
[4:02:18] Speaker 1: I'm not talking about voluntary slavery. Voluntary slavery is.
[4:02:21] Speaker 5: I can get out and become a slave to myself
[4:02:23] Speaker 5: just like you have time I want.
[4:02:25] Speaker 1: That's not slavery. Voluntary slavery is not slavery. Owning another
[4:02:28] Speaker 1: human being as property as slavery. And the God of
[4:02:31] Speaker 1: the Bible says you can own other human beings as property.
[4:02:36] Speaker 5: What so, no, I mean, that's that's your definition of slavery.
[4:02:42] Speaker 5: That's what he said, slavery give. Slavery is is when
[4:02:47] Speaker 5: you when you don't have the rights to your own labor,
[4:02:51] Speaker 5: when you when your your property, when your wealth and
[4:02:56] Speaker 5: your master's welfare are uniquely tied together as one.
[4:03:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, because your property.
[4:03:02] Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with being my God's property.
[4:03:05] Speaker 1: Okay. So a slave doesn't have autonomy. There's somebody else's property, right, right, Okay,
[4:03:13] Speaker 1: And God says you can own other people's property at
[4:03:17] Speaker 1: Leviticus chapter twenty five, forty four through forty six. As
[4:03:20] Speaker 1: for the male and female slaves you may have, it
[4:03:22] Speaker 1: is from the nations around you that you may acquire
[4:03:25] Speaker 1: male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from
[4:03:27] Speaker 1: among the aliens residing with you, and from their families
[4:03:29] Speaker 1: who are with you, who have been born in your land.
[4:03:32] Speaker 1: They may be your property. You may keep them as
[4:03:35] Speaker 1: a possession for your children after you, for them to
[4:03:38] Speaker 1: inherit as property. You can own people as property forever. Slavery.
[4:03:44] Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, and as long as and as long as
[4:03:46] Speaker 5: you treat them in accordance with the way God tells
[4:03:50] Speaker 5: you to. It's perfectly it's perfectly good and fine. I
[4:03:55] Speaker 5: mean so under the right circumstances, I would rather be
[4:03:59] Speaker 5: a slave than a free man under the right circumstances.
[4:04:01] Speaker 1: So if I went out, if I went out and
[4:04:03] Speaker 1: purchased a slave that country, if I went out and
[4:04:06] Speaker 1: purchased a slave from Mexico, is that okay?
[4:04:10] Speaker 5: That would depend entirely on how the slave came about,
[4:04:13] Speaker 5: if the slave was if the person was so desperately poor.
[4:04:17] Speaker 5: And didn't they say, well, it talks about them selling
[4:04:24] Speaker 5: themselves as slaves, and there are slaves of war.
[4:04:26] Speaker 1: Not in the passage we just read about being in
[4:04:28] Speaker 1: the passage we just read. It doesn't say how they
[4:04:31] Speaker 1: began a slave. It just says you acquire them.
[4:04:33] Speaker 5: Okay, well, okay, other parts of other parts of the
[4:04:36] Speaker 5: Bible say how you acquire them, and sometimes just sometimes
[4:04:41] Speaker 5: you imagine.
[4:04:41] Speaker 1: No, I'm not imagining it. It literally says that people
[4:04:44] Speaker 1: born in your house will be slaves. Slaves born in
[4:04:47] Speaker 1: your household. Do you think it's okay to own slaves
[4:04:51] Speaker 1: that are born into the slave household.
[4:04:56] Speaker 5: Under the biblical circumstances, yes, not under the American South.
[4:05:01] Speaker 1: Biblically speaking, what is wrong with me owning a slave.
[4:05:03] Speaker 1: Then if I go out and buy a slave and
[4:05:06] Speaker 1: then they have children, and those children become my slave,
[4:05:10] Speaker 1: and they're my property for life. What's wrong with them?
[4:05:15] Speaker 2: Uh?
[4:05:15] Speaker 5: Nothing, if you treat them according to the way the
[4:05:17] Speaker 5: Bible tells you to treat them.
[4:05:19] Speaker 1: There we go, we come full circle. It's finally got
[4:05:21] Speaker 1: to okay, Joe. And this is why religion rots your brain, Joe,
[4:05:26] Speaker 1: because you'll get up on a live stream in front
[4:05:28] Speaker 1: of two thousand plus people and say there's nothing wrong
[4:05:31] Speaker 1: with owning another human being. This is crazy.
[4:05:35] Speaker 5: Do you remember my comment? Do you remember my comment
[4:05:38] Speaker 5: about how, given the circumstances, keep in mind I would
[4:05:42] Speaker 5: rather be at Keep in mind atheists don't have any morals.
[4:05:45] Speaker 5: We atheists have no morals.
[4:05:46] Speaker 1: But these Christians that think slavery was okay, they got
[4:05:49] Speaker 1: all the morals. Joe, come on here, possible to row?
[4:05:56] Speaker 5: No, I'm not I I've already told you I am.
[4:05:58] Speaker 5: I'm the slave of g Is Christ. He treats me harshly.
[4:06:04] Speaker 1: But well, does he beat you with the rod? Because
[4:06:06] Speaker 1: you can beat your slave with a rod?
[4:06:09] Speaker 5: Yeah, he beats me with the metaphorical rod.
[4:06:10] Speaker 1: No, no real rod. Does he beat you with a
[4:06:12] Speaker 1: physical rod.
[4:06:17] Speaker 5: No, not a physical rod.
[4:06:18] Speaker 1: No, okay, but I could beat my slave with a
[4:06:20] Speaker 1: physical rod, and that's okay.
[4:06:26] Speaker 5: According to the Bible, right right, And yeah, but I
[4:06:30] Speaker 5: mean in the New Testament talks about the slave and
[4:06:34] Speaker 5: the son being the same thing, except that the son
[4:06:37] Speaker 5: is certainly doesn't hear it what he's working for. Yes,
[4:06:40] Speaker 5: it does.
[4:06:40] Speaker 1: They're not the same.
[4:06:41] Speaker 5: And I believe it's in Galatians. No, I know he
[4:06:43] Speaker 5: talks about that.
[4:06:45] Speaker 1: I know, I know the reference you're making. And there
[4:06:48] Speaker 1: is a difference between his son and a slave because
[4:06:50] Speaker 1: a son is not owned as property. A son works
[4:06:53] Speaker 1: for his father and then receives the inheritance when his
[4:06:57] Speaker 1: father dies. Slave doesn't do that. Slaves don't get to
[4:07:01] Speaker 1: go free. They're not children that can leave the farm.
[4:07:04] Speaker 1: Their property.
[4:07:09] Speaker 5: Under under certain terms and circumstances doesn't matter their property making.
[4:07:15] Speaker 3: So I can.
[4:07:15] Speaker 1: I can own a slave for life and the slave's children,
[4:07:20] Speaker 1: and I could beat the slave of the rod. Do
[4:07:23] Speaker 1: you think that sounds good?
[4:07:26] Speaker 5: Again? Again, You're you're divorcing slavery from all of the
[4:07:32] Speaker 5: contextual circumstances of the day. You're you're acting like slavery.
[4:07:37] Speaker 5: You're you're acting like slavery today in America could be
[4:07:42] Speaker 5: equated to slavery four thousand years.
[4:07:45] Speaker 1: The difference where so.
[4:07:48] Speaker 5: Everybody was living hand to mouth, that not everybody was
[4:07:51] Speaker 5: just one drought or one famine away from death. Wrungin starvation.
[4:07:55] Speaker 5: There were plagues, there were marauders. There was so much
[4:08:00] Speaker 5: much going on.
[4:08:00] Speaker 1: I've literally never heard someone say so many wrong things
[4:08:04] Speaker 1: in one conversation. The Bible literally lists like thirty different
[4:08:09] Speaker 1: jobs that they had. Like this is in the Bible.
[4:08:12] Speaker 1: People in the ancient world were different and they had jobs.
[4:08:15] Speaker 1: That's why. In Levitica's chapter twenty five, it says, if
[4:08:19] Speaker 1: your own brethren fall into poverty, make them work as
[4:08:22] Speaker 1: a hired laborer. Could God have said, if a foreigner
[4:08:27] Speaker 1: falls in the debt, make them work as a hired laborer.
[4:08:30] Speaker 1: Could he have said that?
[4:08:37] Speaker 5: Yeah, he could say whatever he wants to say, but.
[4:08:38] Speaker 1: He didn't because he didn't care about the foreigner. He says,
[4:08:42] Speaker 1: don't treat your own brethren like slaves. But these foreigners
[4:08:45] Speaker 1: you can treat them like slaves.
[4:08:50] Speaker 5: Yeah, like slaves, still within the given within the given
[4:08:56] Speaker 5: parameters of treatment for slaves, you can call it property.
[4:09:00] Speaker 5: All you want.
[4:09:00] Speaker 1: There's only three parameters.
[4:09:02] Speaker 5: In many senses, only three parameters for what.
[4:09:06] Speaker 1: There's only three parameters for how to treat your Hebrew slave.
[4:09:11] Speaker 1: Number one, you can't kill them on purpose. Number two,
[4:09:14] Speaker 1: if you knock their eyeball out, they get their freedom.
[4:09:17] Speaker 1: Number three, if you knock their teeth out, they get
[4:09:19] Speaker 1: their freedom. Those are the only three parameters for how
[4:09:23] Speaker 1: to beat your slave. Other than that, you can beat
[4:09:26] Speaker 1: your slave as severely as you want to. It even
[4:09:28] Speaker 1: says in Exodus twenty one twenty one that if your
[4:09:31] Speaker 1: slave dies after a couple of days, it's presumed to
[4:09:34] Speaker 1: be an accident and there's no punishment.
[4:09:40] Speaker 5: Okay, so, but there's also a verse in Leviticus that
[4:09:44] Speaker 5: says you shall be careful that no one who has
[4:09:48] Speaker 5: a slave deals ruthlessly with them. That's not there, Yes
[4:09:53] Speaker 5: it is. Nope, yeah, look up again. I can't find you.
[4:09:57] Speaker 5: See my internet, all my computers back on. Look up
[4:09:59] Speaker 5: the word ruthless in Leviticus.
[4:10:02] Speaker 1: It's in livitic It's in Leviticus twenty five and is
[4:10:05] Speaker 1: referring to your own Hebrew brethren. I read it for you.
[4:10:11] Speaker 5: I don't have internet, so I can't fine Leviticus.
[4:10:13] Speaker 1: You said twenty five, starting in thirty nine, I can
[4:10:24] Speaker 1: read it for you.
[4:10:26] Speaker 5: Yep, go for it.
[4:10:28] Speaker 1: If any who are dependent on you become so impoverished
[4:10:31] Speaker 1: that they sell themselves to you, you shall not make
[4:10:34] Speaker 1: them serve as slaves. They shall remain with you as
[4:10:36] Speaker 1: hired or bound laborers. They shall serve you until the
[4:10:39] Speaker 1: year of Jubilee. Then they and their children with them
[4:10:41] Speaker 1: shall go out from your authority, and they shall go
[4:10:44] Speaker 1: back to their own family and return to their ancestral property.
[4:10:47] Speaker 1: For they are my servants who I brought out of
[4:10:49] Speaker 1: the land of Egypt. They shall not be sold as
[4:10:52] Speaker 1: slaves are sold. You shall not rule over them with harshness,
[4:10:56] Speaker 1: but fear your God. And these are the Israelites. The
[4:11:00] Speaker 1: very next verse says, as for the male and female
[4:11:03] Speaker 1: slaves who you are allowed to have, it is from
[4:11:06] Speaker 1: the nations around you. And he ends that passage by saying,
[4:11:09] Speaker 1: you may keep them as a possession for your children
[4:11:12] Speaker 1: after you, for them to inherit as property. These you
[4:11:15] Speaker 1: may treat as slaves. But as for your fellow Israelites,
[4:11:18] Speaker 1: no one shall rule over the other with harshness. So
[4:11:21] Speaker 1: you can't treat your fellow Israelites harshly. You can treat
[4:11:24] Speaker 1: the foreign slaves.
[4:11:25] Speaker 6: Does it does not?
[4:11:26] Speaker 5: It does not say that you can treat the foreigners harshly.
[4:11:29] Speaker 5: Yeah it does, we're told in No, it doesn't. It
[4:11:32] Speaker 5: just does you shall treat? Where does it say you should?
[4:11:35] Speaker 5: You can be harsh to your two foreign labors?
[4:11:37] Speaker 1: Forty six?
[4:11:38] Speaker 5: That I miss it?
[4:11:39] Speaker 1: Yeah, you miss six.
[4:11:40] Speaker 5: You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to
[4:11:43] Speaker 5: inherit as a possession forever. It doesn't say keep them,
[4:11:48] Speaker 5: but over your brothers the people visual you shall not
[4:11:51] Speaker 5: rule over one over another ruthlessly.
[4:11:54] Speaker 1: I have no idea. You missed the first half of
[4:11:56] Speaker 1: the sentence. Read it again.
[4:12:00] Speaker 5: You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to
[4:12:02] Speaker 5: inherit as a possession forever. And then they make slaves
[4:12:06] Speaker 5: of them.
[4:12:07] Speaker 1: There you go.
[4:12:09] Speaker 5: You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers,
[4:12:13] Speaker 5: the people of Israel, you shall not rule one over
[4:12:16] Speaker 5: another ruthlessly.
[4:12:17] Speaker 1: Right now, who did it say that you can't treat ruthlessly?
[4:12:22] Speaker 5: So I think it's talking about I would be interested
[4:12:24] Speaker 5: in knowing what the word ruthless means. But I think
[4:12:27] Speaker 5: it's talking about just the the idea of being slaves forever. No,
[4:12:32] Speaker 5: that that's that's what's considered ruthless because it talks about you.
[4:12:36] Speaker 5: You may make them slaves forever, but of the people visually,
[4:12:39] Speaker 5: you shall not rule one over another ruthlessly. So it's
[4:12:42] Speaker 5: contrasting ownership forever.
[4:12:45] Speaker 4: A oh well, some tough that's a tough way to
[4:12:56] Speaker 4: go out.
[4:12:56] Speaker 1: It's a tough way. Not only that he does invout
[4:13:00] Speaker 1: collidated his entire argument because he was saying that ruthless
[4:13:03] Speaker 1: is a parameter that of how you can and cannot
[4:13:06] Speaker 1: treat your slave. You can't treat your slave ruthlessly. So
[4:13:08] Speaker 1: if ruthless is just another way of saying a slave forever,
[4:13:12] Speaker 1: then he just nullified his own argument. But listen, it's
[4:13:15] Speaker 1: it's it's twelve, Joe, buddy, buddy, please watch this back
[4:13:24] Speaker 1: and realize how ridiculous you sound. It was not it
[4:13:27] Speaker 1: was not good, it was not pretty. But it's late.
[4:13:30] Speaker 1: I got to read some super chats. I'm gonna be
[4:13:31] Speaker 1: up until two in the morning reading super chats. I
[4:13:33] Speaker 1: got to read some super chats and get the bad guys.
[4:13:37] Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. It's supposed to be done at midnight.
[4:13:41] Speaker 1: But listen, Joe came back and I knew it was
[4:13:45] Speaker 1: going to be a long conversation, so I said, we're
[4:13:47] Speaker 1: just gonna talk until he gets it all out of
[4:13:49] Speaker 1: his system.
[4:13:51] Speaker 4: You know. You know what's funny is like I was
[4:13:53] Speaker 4: up there the last time he was off. I remember
[4:13:56] Speaker 4: that whole then lifting the leg thing.
[4:14:01] Speaker 1: I literally just clipped that video earlier today I was
[4:14:04] Speaker 1: making clips of the old.
[4:14:08] Speaker 4: I was like, oh, Joe, have you put together like
[4:14:15] Speaker 4: a schedule when do you think you're gonna be going live?
[4:14:18] Speaker 1: Well, I have one for the fall. The summer is
[4:14:21] Speaker 1: still kind of I actually do have a schedule for
[4:14:23] Speaker 1: the summer. It's just that it doesn't make sense when
[4:14:25] Speaker 1: I tell it to you because you need to see
[4:14:26] Speaker 1: it on a calendar because it's a lot of moving dates.
[4:14:30] Speaker 1: But just know, for most of the summer, I'll be
[4:14:33] Speaker 1: going live during the daytime, not during the nighttime. Just
[4:14:38] Speaker 1: this week and next week. My son is with mom
[4:14:41] Speaker 1: for the two weeks, but when he's with me, I'll
[4:14:43] Speaker 1: be live during the daytime. When he's with mom, I'll
[4:14:45] Speaker 1: be live during the night. When the fall time rolls
[4:14:48] Speaker 1: around and he's back in school full time, then I'm
[4:14:52] Speaker 1: going to add in nighttime and daytime. Daytime stream, So
[4:14:56] Speaker 1: I'll probably do Wednesday, Friday, Sunday like usual and then
[4:15:01] Speaker 1: add in like a Tuesday and a Thursday daytime stream
[4:15:04] Speaker 1: for people who can't come to the nighttime streams.
[4:15:08] Speaker 4: Cool, very cool, So it should be exciting. So yeah,
[4:15:12] Speaker 4: congrats on you know, reaching that level that you can
[4:15:14] Speaker 4: do that. It's amazing.
[4:15:15] Speaker 1: I think I appreciate it. It's funny because like I'm
[4:15:18] Speaker 1: still putting in like well over forty hours because I'm
[4:15:21] Speaker 1: editing all my own clips, I'm doing research and I'm
[4:15:24] Speaker 1: debating twenty twenty five thirty hours a week. But it's
[4:15:28] Speaker 1: different because you're doing what you want to do.
[4:15:31] Speaker 4: Yeah, passion, you know what I mean. Yeah, like I don't.
[4:15:34] Speaker 1: I'm not like my boss hasn't given me instructions, you
[4:15:37] Speaker 1: know what I mean. So but listen, the community on
[4:15:42] Speaker 1: TikTok and YouTube is what propelled me to be able
[4:15:44] Speaker 1: to do this. So, I mean, I have nothing but
[4:15:47] Speaker 1: thanks and gratitude in my heart for people who believed
[4:15:49] Speaker 1: in me and helped to support me, you know, to
[4:15:52] Speaker 1: this point. So I will never forget you know, all
[4:15:59] Speaker 1: the people who helped to make this possible. It's kind
[4:16:02] Speaker 1: of like when I when I host on the Atheist experience,
[4:16:05] Speaker 1: Like they see me and another guy on a screen,
[4:16:08] Speaker 1: but there's like eight people in the background pressing all
[4:16:10] Speaker 1: the buttons making stuff happen, right, Like I'm just a
[4:16:13] Speaker 1: guy that got on the screen that will say stuff
[4:16:14] Speaker 1: out loud. But there's a lot of people that really
[4:16:16] Speaker 1: helped to make the community awesome, like all the moderators
[4:16:19] Speaker 1: that are helping, all my friends that come up, like
[4:16:22] Speaker 1: EM's Ian you, Philow, Dragon comes up, Danny pops in
[4:16:28] Speaker 1: from timetime, Like there's so many people that Sarah's all
[4:16:30] Speaker 1: in here. We've got lots of people in the community
[4:16:32] Speaker 1: that contribute to all these live streams. And I think
[4:16:35] Speaker 1: because our community is so strong, it makes the individual
[4:16:39] Speaker 1: craters that much stronger. You know.
[4:16:41] Speaker 4: Absolutely. I saw Cyber just joined.
[4:16:45] Speaker 1: He's also oh Cyber, Yeah, Cyber, and Joel and Mezzo
[4:16:49] Speaker 1: and Thinker and Rhea. Mister Bashan Cole hasn't been live
[4:16:52] Speaker 1: in a while, but I he.
[4:16:54] Speaker 2: Was in here.
[4:16:54] Speaker 4: I saw here when I first capitalism.
[4:17:01] Speaker 1: When I first found bash on TikTok, I was like,
[4:17:04] Speaker 1: I like this guy. This guy makes a lot of sense,
[4:17:09] Speaker 1: like fantastic. It wasn't just that he was smart and
[4:17:12] Speaker 1: making really good points is that he's fun and funny
[4:17:15] Speaker 1: doing it like he's He's just a riot to listen to.
[4:17:19] Speaker 1: He could talk about anything and I would listen to.
[4:17:22] Speaker 4: Him do it, you know, absolutely?
[4:17:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, But let me grab some super chats friends and
[4:17:27] Speaker 1: then well, well I'm sure we'll have some fun ones
[4:17:30] Speaker 1: in here. If you're not following Macluster yet on TikTok,
[4:17:34] Speaker 1: make sure you do. Mac. Did you get a YouTube
[4:17:38] Speaker 1: channel yet?
[4:17:40] Speaker 2: No?
[4:17:41] Speaker 4: I mean I have one. I might like rebrand or something.
[4:17:44] Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I've got kind of weighing options on that,
[4:17:47] Speaker 4: but yeah, just find me on here, fall me out here,
[4:17:50] Speaker 4: and if you know, check in out a plan on
[4:17:53] Speaker 4: going live tomorrow. Oh good, I need to be more
[4:17:56] Speaker 4: consistent with it.
[4:17:57] Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be alive, so I'll try hard to
[4:18:00] Speaker 1: catch alive them.
[4:18:01] Speaker 4: Awesome, Yeah, that'd be great.
[4:18:03] Speaker 1: Love it all right. We got a ten hour super
[4:18:06] Speaker 1: chat from five to five. Four four five says Christianity
[4:18:10] Speaker 1: is the desperate act of trying to spit out the
[4:18:12] Speaker 1: apple so they can be as oblivious to what was
[4:18:16] Speaker 1: right and wrong as so they can be evil as
[4:18:20] Speaker 1: their God wants them to be. That's actually a really
[4:18:22] Speaker 1: good point and This reminds me of Bash's evil God hypothesis,
[4:18:26] Speaker 1: but it's one hundred percent like, Uh, if God wanted
[4:18:30] Speaker 1: to create an army of evil minions, this is how
[4:18:33] Speaker 1: he would do it. This is the blueprint, you know.
[4:18:36] Speaker 1: I mean, like, could you.
[4:18:39] Speaker 4: Imagine it's going gangbusters?
[4:18:43] Speaker 1: Business is Boomen for the evil God, and smallA says
[4:18:48] Speaker 1: your Jesse series is epic. Oh yeah with b boop
[4:18:51] Speaker 1: also known as Jesse, the three part series of film
[4:18:53] Speaker 1: buffooning himself. Also does Doug have a last name? I
[4:18:57] Speaker 1: need something to scream when I stuff my toe. Doug's biced. Okay, Shoot,
[4:19:02] Speaker 1: I never thought about Doug having a last name. Now
[4:19:05] Speaker 1: I really wish he did. Oh Stone, It's it's Stone.
[4:19:09] Speaker 1: So his name is Doug Stone. His consort is Sharon Stone,
[4:19:13] Speaker 1: and they are Doug and Sharon Stone. And I picked
[4:19:16] Speaker 1: I particular. I was looking for a name that was stony,
[4:19:21] Speaker 1: and the name Sharon Stone just popped into my head
[4:19:24] Speaker 1: because like, oh Stone, right, And then I was like, oh,
[4:19:26] Speaker 1: it's really funny because we already had this whole nonsense
[4:19:30] Speaker 1: of them being in like a trinity, which means they're
[4:19:33] Speaker 1: the substance that makes them. One is Stone which means
[4:19:35] Speaker 1: they're sharing Stone. So I said Doug and Sharon Stone.
[4:19:38] Speaker 1: I was like, it makes everything fit together through so
[4:19:45] Speaker 1: probably is Doug and Sharon Stone. But this is how
[4:19:49] Speaker 1: like the ridiculous nonsense that the Christians make up for
[4:19:53] Speaker 1: their crazy beliefs, I can do it just as easy
[4:19:57] Speaker 1: with Doug Sharon, Rocky Pebbles, like like I get on
[4:20:01] Speaker 1: the fly. I can think of this nonsensical bullshit that
[4:20:04] Speaker 1: tells you how bs it is that we can make
[4:20:06] Speaker 1: up parallel nonsense on the fly. That's crazy. Mike says,
[4:20:13] Speaker 1: mind nuancing Catholics, all that exist early existed early. Let
[4:20:18] Speaker 1: me make sure I understand that mind nuancing Catholics all
[4:20:21] Speaker 1: that existed early. I may not fully understand the question,
[4:20:25] Speaker 1: but I do know this. I was expecting some Catholic
[4:20:29] Speaker 1: filbros to come in once we get the fillbro juices
[4:20:32] Speaker 1: going the surprising only Orthrow like Crane Orthro Bros.
[4:20:36] Speaker 4: You know, but I don't know what that I tried
[4:20:40] Speaker 4: with that last comment. I couldn't make heads or tails
[4:20:43] Speaker 4: of it.
[4:20:43] Speaker 1: It's a tough one. Victor, thank you so much for
[4:20:46] Speaker 1: the superjet. Twenty bucks is very generous. I appreciate that says,
[4:20:50] Speaker 1: do you ever have debate streams on miscellaneous religion religious topics?
[4:20:54] Speaker 1: I actually used to do just topics, and the reason
[4:20:59] Speaker 1: why I stopped doing that is because I stream for
[4:21:01] Speaker 1: so long that it's hard to keep audience interest on
[4:21:05] Speaker 1: a central topic like if I just did Jesus or
[4:21:09] Speaker 1: the Bible supports slavery or the Bible supports genocide. These
[4:21:13] Speaker 1: are really good topics, but over the course of like
[4:21:15] Speaker 1: five or six hours, eventually people lose interest because it's
[4:21:18] Speaker 1: just one topic. Doing an open topic like God is
[4:21:22] Speaker 1: imaginary or God is not good or different things like that,
[4:21:26] Speaker 1: it allows me to argue it from many different perspectives,
[4:21:30] Speaker 1: and it helps to keep the argument from being repetitive,
[4:21:34] Speaker 1: which we already know is is going to happen because
[4:21:37] Speaker 1: Christians already have so few talking points.
[4:21:39] Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
[4:21:41] Speaker 4: Yeah, I have one. I have two questions on my background,
[4:21:44] Speaker 4: and the one that you can see like above my
[4:21:47] Speaker 4: head says it is it was Yeah, I think it
[4:21:54] Speaker 4: is God evil. And then there's a second question you
[4:21:58] Speaker 4: can kind to see behind me, but I block and
[4:22:00] Speaker 4: they always want to know what's that second question? Go,
[4:22:02] Speaker 4: I don't worry about it. We'll get to it later
[4:22:04] Speaker 4: and then once they once they prove that they don't
[4:22:07] Speaker 4: actually care if God is good or bad, I lean
[4:22:09] Speaker 4: over and I point to the questions, so do Christians care?
[4:22:14] Speaker 1: That's amazing.
[4:22:15] Speaker 4: It was an accident, like it just but it worked
[4:22:17] Speaker 4: out so perfectly that my like my head covered it,
[4:22:20] Speaker 4: and then I can reveal it because they always want
[4:22:22] Speaker 4: to know what it is, right, Yeah, yeah, we'll get there.
[4:22:24] Speaker 4: We'll get there out. I'll show you why it's there.
[4:22:27] Speaker 1: People love a good mystery. The rest of the super
[4:22:33] Speaker 1: chet says, I have one. Oh, I'm all the ears,
[4:22:35] Speaker 1: it says, but it's unusual topic and doesn't fit the
[4:22:38] Speaker 1: theme of your God's imaginary nor your God's evil. Okay,
[4:22:42] Speaker 1: so you already know my two main topics, so it
[4:22:44] Speaker 1: doesn't have to do with deities at all. Okay, well, Victor,
[4:22:47] Speaker 1: I'm all ears. Even if we don't run a singular
[4:22:50] Speaker 1: topic on it, I can mix it into my repertoire
[4:22:54] Speaker 1: and make it part of my argumentation package. So, like
[4:22:57] Speaker 1: anyone who's been around for a while knows at first arguments,
[4:23:01] Speaker 1: I have different places that I like to go. I'm
[4:23:03] Speaker 1: working on mixing that up a little bit more. The
[4:23:05] Speaker 1: problem is like when I first started streaming, I found
[4:23:09] Speaker 1: a handful that are my favorites because they're the most effective,
[4:23:12] Speaker 1: so I kept re using the most effective ones. But
[4:23:14] Speaker 1: now i'm because I was talking to Ian about this
[4:23:18] Speaker 1: like two months ago, and he was experimenting with a
[4:23:21] Speaker 1: new talking point live, like he didn't even know if
[4:23:23] Speaker 1: it was gonna work. He was just letting us know
[4:23:25] Speaker 1: ahead time. And I got a new argument, I'm gonna
[4:23:26] Speaker 1: experiment with it and see what happens. I'm think I
[4:23:29] Speaker 1: kind of like that maybe we should just I've got
[4:23:31] Speaker 1: all these arguments on my cheat sheet. Maybe I should
[4:23:34] Speaker 1: just experiment with some of the little no ones that
[4:23:35] Speaker 1: I don't use too often, just to play them out
[4:23:38] Speaker 1: see what happens.
[4:23:38] Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, yeah, I mean it seems like a
[4:23:42] Speaker 4: good use of the format.
[4:23:43] Speaker 1: Exactly right. But anyways, Victor, let me know what the
[4:23:46] Speaker 1: argument is, and if it's good, we'll put it on
[4:23:48] Speaker 1: the cheat sheet and we'll put it into play. And
[4:23:51] Speaker 1: the smallest says Isaiah forty nine. It says Israel, so
[4:23:54] Speaker 1: I could see how you would read it as Israel,
[4:23:57] Speaker 1: but it's not. Come on, justin figure it out. I'm sorry, Well,
[4:24:01] Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking believing that Israel
[4:24:04] Speaker 1: meant is Israel and Saint Brushia's I tragically died spiritually
[4:24:10] Speaker 1: two weeks ago. Oh that's interesting. I'm glad you're with us, though,
[4:24:16] Speaker 1: and being that it was a spiritual death, I assume
[4:24:17] Speaker 1: you're never close to your actual death. Josh's Isaiah ffty
[4:24:21] Speaker 1: three is embarrassing cook to perfection. I appreciate that, Josh.
[4:24:25] Speaker 1: Here's the funny thing is, no matter how many times
[4:24:27] Speaker 1: I talked to Christians about Isaiah fifty three, they believe
[4:24:31] Speaker 1: so deep in their heart, like they just know, be
[4:24:35] Speaker 1: on a shadow of a doubt, that Isaiah fifty three
[4:24:37] Speaker 1: have to be about Jesus. They can't see any other way,
[4:24:41] Speaker 1: and they think that I'm not going to have a
[4:24:44] Speaker 1: response for them. It's crazy that they think that it's crazy.
[4:24:48] Speaker 4: I had a guy today talked about this thing, and
[4:24:51] Speaker 4: he said that at the time, before Jesus, it was
[4:24:55] Speaker 4: understood that that was a messianic prophecy. But then after
[4:24:58] Speaker 4: Jesus came around, the rabbis we got together and said, no, no, no,
[4:25:03] Speaker 4: it's not.
[4:25:03] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy. I've heard that argument too. That's a
[4:25:06] Speaker 1: crazy argument because.
[4:25:08] Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, oh you know it was Russ holl
[4:25:11] Speaker 4: And he was talking about Crystal and she mopped him.
[4:25:15] Speaker 1: Crystal's awesome. Yeah she dude, she's sharp. I love Crystal Man.
[4:25:21] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[4:25:21] Speaker 2: Uh.
[4:25:22] Speaker 1: Mister Morphyus says he's the god of Israel. What that
[4:25:26] Speaker 1: got to do with me? Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
[4:25:31] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I apologized. I didn't see when this came in,
[4:25:33] Speaker 1: so I don't know exactly what you're referring to, mister Morpheus.
[4:25:35] Speaker 1: But Morpheus, my good friend, it's great to see you.
[4:25:38] Speaker 1: You're awesome, by the way. I love seeing you in
[4:25:41] Speaker 1: the Uh in the stream, my friend, and smaller says flashback.
[4:25:44] Speaker 1: He says he'll prove himself a lamb or provide himself
[4:25:48] Speaker 1: a lamb. No, he'll provide himself a lamb. Wait, no,
[4:25:52] Speaker 1: he says he'll provide him self. Hm, it's crazy. And Mac,
[4:26:02] Speaker 1: I'm glad you pointed that out. That if you have
[4:26:05] Speaker 1: to be specific, like it wasn't fulfilled because a ram
[4:26:07] Speaker 1: was there rather than a lamb. Well, if you're gonna
[4:26:09] Speaker 1: be that specific, then Jesus didn't fit either. Jesus wasn't
[4:26:12] Speaker 1: a lamb.
[4:26:13] Speaker 4: This naked thing on two legs, it's much closer than
[4:26:18] Speaker 4: a ram.
[4:26:21] Speaker 1: If I'm going with which one is closer. And Abraham
[4:26:23] Speaker 1: himself obviously thought that a ram was good enough because
[4:26:26] Speaker 1: he sacrificed it and said named the mountain. God will
[4:26:29] Speaker 1: provide because he thought God provided.
[4:26:32] Speaker 4: What the expression I made when he's like sees is
[4:26:36] Speaker 4: God will provide. So it's still like it's still future.
[4:26:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, right, they're trying so hard, they'll cling to any
[4:26:45] Speaker 1: morsel they got anything.
[4:26:48] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just it's driftwood floating by.
[4:26:51] Speaker 1: I know. It's funny too, because like I wanted them
[4:26:54] Speaker 1: so badly, go to an actual prophecy. Just find me
[4:26:58] Speaker 1: a prophecy. He couldn't find. All he can go is
[4:27:01] Speaker 1: these dumb foreshadowings because they've never read the prophecies. They've
[4:27:05] Speaker 1: never read Jeremiah, they've never read Joseah, they haven't read
[4:27:09] Speaker 1: any prophecy. They have no idea what's in those books.
[4:27:14] Speaker 1: It's crazy carnage. Thank you for the nine ninety nine,
[4:27:17] Speaker 1: my friend. It's been so good seeing you in the
[4:27:19] Speaker 1: live chat in Discord two, jumping into a conversation since
[4:27:24] Speaker 1: seeing Americans using the Internet to discuss the intricacies of
[4:27:27] Speaker 1: blood magic with a straight face in the year twenty
[4:27:30] Speaker 1: twenty five is absolutely buck fucking wild. I'll never get
[4:27:34] Speaker 1: used to it, I know. And the look on his
[4:27:36] Speaker 1: face when I told him that the other nations around
[4:27:40] Speaker 1: Israel had all the same different blood rituals. He couldn't
[4:27:44] Speaker 1: he couldn't believe it. But that's the truth.
[4:27:47] Speaker 4: It's it's so funny to mean, like when Moses did it,
[4:27:52] Speaker 4: it were miracles. When the Pharaoh's magicians did it, that
[4:27:55] Speaker 4: was like evil black magic, exact same thing, the exact
[4:27:59] Speaker 4: same thing.
[4:28:02] Speaker 1: It was the dark arts, as it says, and I
[4:28:05] Speaker 1: think the King James or the new King James. Halla, furfy,
[4:28:09] Speaker 1: my friend, great to see you tonight. Thank you so
[4:28:11] Speaker 1: much for the six hundred and sixty six Argentinian dollars.
[4:28:15] Speaker 1: My friend, great to see you in here, says Halla.
[4:28:18] Speaker 1: Justin I had to join this crew as well, now
[4:28:20] Speaker 1: that the horizontal stream is getting so much, getting so much,
[4:28:25] Speaker 1: oh love. Sorry, part of the letter was covered up.
[4:28:28] Speaker 1: I think I can feel Doug sending some sub gifts
[4:28:31] Speaker 1: from below. Amen, feel the power of Doug gifting out
[4:28:35] Speaker 1: sub Thank you for being here friend, And the horizontal stream, guys,
[4:28:40] Speaker 1: is starting to be bigger than the vertical stream now
[4:28:43] Speaker 1: so many people watching the horizontal stream. I'm a little
[4:28:46] Speaker 1: bit shocked because we just started doing the horizontal recently,
[4:28:49] Speaker 1: so I'm interested to see how this plays out. I
[4:28:52] Speaker 1: really am. Frank, thank you so much for the four
[4:28:55] Speaker 1: ninety nine says, this guy might be smart enough to deconstruct,
[4:28:58] Speaker 1: but he's in a car and doesn't realize it. Hopefully
[4:29:02] Speaker 1: he doesn't get racist or homophobic. Hill Doug, Well, Frank,
[4:29:06] Speaker 1: I listen, he caved on slavery. If I would have
[4:29:10] Speaker 1: pushed slavery to the next logical step, which is that
[4:29:13] Speaker 1: it seems to be ethnic based based on the nation
[4:29:17] Speaker 1: you came from, I guess. I guarantee I could have
[4:29:20] Speaker 1: made him to concede to some sort of ethnic superiority
[4:29:25] Speaker 1: as well, so you know it was coming. And I
[4:29:28] Speaker 1: certainly could have moved him into homophobia easily if I
[4:29:32] Speaker 1: went to Leviticus eighteen or twenty. No way, he wouldn't
[4:29:35] Speaker 1: have supported a homophobia. He would have been all over it.
[4:29:38] Speaker 1: Somali says, justin the word is what comes out of
[4:29:42] Speaker 1: his mouth? Call her? Wait? So words come out of
[4:29:44] Speaker 1: the mouth.
[4:29:49] Speaker 4: Was yeah. I was like, wait, do they send your
[4:29:51] Speaker 4: words to prison? If you threatened the president.
[4:29:56] Speaker 1: I wish he could have heard you.
[4:29:59] Speaker 4: I know, I was like dying over here.
[4:30:01] Speaker 1: My goal for the summer is to find some software
[4:30:05] Speaker 1: audio routing that will work so that I could route
[4:30:08] Speaker 1: the TikTok audio over to some sort of mixer and
[4:30:12] Speaker 1: get it into video Ninja so that they can hear
[4:30:15] Speaker 1: my TikTok guests. I'm gonna make it happen, come hell
[4:30:18] Speaker 1: or high water this year. It's got to happen, because, yeah, man,
[4:30:23] Speaker 1: it was really open doors, overly polite, rebel. I appreciate that.
[4:30:27] Speaker 1: Thank you for being polite, Thank you for the nine
[4:30:29] Speaker 1: ninety nine says. Have you read Christy Hanson's paper Murder
[4:30:32] Speaker 1: among Brothers the Deaths of Peter and Paul reconsidered it
[4:30:35] Speaker 1: in a Journal of Early Christian History. She posits that
[4:30:39] Speaker 1: Paul was murdered by fellow Christians.
[4:30:42] Speaker 2: No, I have it.
[4:30:43] Speaker 1: Listen. Christy's fun all right, and listen. Christy has done
[4:30:50] Speaker 1: a decent job of being a non professional and still
[4:30:53] Speaker 1: engaging with the academic literature. But to me, she's just
[4:30:59] Speaker 1: two friends. I gotta be honest when it comes to
[4:31:03] Speaker 1: biblical scholarship and these types of hystericity questions. I'm still
[4:31:07] Speaker 1: very mainstream. I believe in line with what most scholars believe.
[4:31:12] Speaker 1: I'm not a mythsist. Chrissy's a huge mythicist. I'm not.
[4:31:16] Speaker 1: I don't find any mythicism arguments for Jesus or Paul
[4:31:19] Speaker 1: to be very convincing. But listen, as far as non professional,
[4:31:26] Speaker 1: non academically trained researchers go, she's among the best of them.
[4:31:31] Speaker 1: She does a great job with her research. I just
[4:31:34] Speaker 1: happen to disagree with with where she's at with the
[4:31:36] Speaker 1: conclusions and midlife says Bride sloppy Joe Yum, congrats on
[4:31:46] Speaker 1: your new role. Well, thank you, midlife crisis man. Good
[4:31:49] Speaker 1: to hear you, hear from you, and I think I
[4:31:52] Speaker 1: pronounced it correctly again, I think I got the hang
[4:31:55] Speaker 1: of pronouncing this word. Thank you for stopping by. Great
[4:31:58] Speaker 1: to hear from you, and whipplicious, thank you for the supertest,
[4:32:02] Speaker 1: says thank you Justin for all you do forgive my ignorance.
[4:32:05] Speaker 1: But have you covered the Lost Gospels? And are they
[4:32:09] Speaker 1: even real? Gospel of Judas sounds fun, pratty, Doug, So
[4:32:12] Speaker 1: we don't talk about the Lost Gospels very much. I
[4:32:14] Speaker 1: actually was so excited when they published the Gospel of
[4:32:18] Speaker 1: Judas because I thought it was going to be really interesting.
[4:32:20] Speaker 1: I don't think it is. It sounds like a lot
[4:32:22] Speaker 1: of the other you know, apocryphal gospels, like the Infancy Gospels,
[4:32:30] Speaker 1: or the apocryphal Acts of Peter, you know the Acts
[4:32:33] Speaker 1: of Paul and thecla It's just a text that was
[4:32:37] Speaker 1: written much later. It's a great text, though. What it's
[4:32:42] Speaker 1: doing in the text is it's making of justification for
[4:32:46] Speaker 1: Judas not being evil because he technically was predestined to
[4:32:49] Speaker 1: do what he had to do, and so he was
[4:32:51] Speaker 1: actually doing what needed to be done, and therefore you
[4:32:54] Speaker 1: should have a little bit of a little bit of
[4:32:58] Speaker 1: mercy in your judgment on Judas. And that whole idea
[4:33:01] Speaker 1: is laid out very well in the Gospel of Judas.
[4:33:04] Speaker 1: Is it authentic No, obviously, it wasn't readen by Judas.
[4:33:07] Speaker 1: Is it old No, really, not as old as what
[4:33:09] Speaker 1: people want him to be.
[4:33:10] Speaker 4: But it is.
[4:33:11] Speaker 1: Is it awesome? Yeah, it's awesome. The only downfall is
[4:33:14] Speaker 1: it's pretty fragmentary. A lot of it is very difficult
[4:33:16] Speaker 1: to read. It's not like a book where can open
[4:33:19] Speaker 1: up and read it from beginning to end. It's very fragmented. So,
[4:33:23] Speaker 1: but anyways, I would recommend go read it. Halla Furfey
[4:33:26] Speaker 1: again sending out twenty DZ memberships, big big w. My
[4:33:31] Speaker 1: friend is very very generous. You can you can become
[4:33:34] Speaker 1: a member and get the cheat sheet on the horizontal
[4:33:36] Speaker 1: stream on DZ debates, on the vertical stream on Deconstruction Zone,
[4:33:40] Speaker 1: or in the link tree in my profile. I've got
[4:33:43] Speaker 1: a link to Patreon. You can now be a member
[4:33:45] Speaker 1: on Patreon. The only downfall is if you sign up
[4:33:48] Speaker 1: on Patreon, you don't get the fun chat mojis, and
[4:33:52] Speaker 1: you can get it on TikTok as always.
[4:33:55] Speaker 4: I love this update.
[4:33:58] Speaker 1: Frank is Doug Dan he's starting to get racist. Yeah,
[4:34:03] Speaker 1: we knew it was gonna happen. We knew it. And
[4:34:10] Speaker 1: Jennifer says, Justin, you're making slavery sound bad. Oh no,
[4:34:15] Speaker 1: I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean to
[4:34:18] Speaker 1: make slavery sound bad, guys, and Timmy says, it's Joe
[4:34:22] Speaker 1: versus the volcano. Justin cooked again, Timmy, the thank you
[4:34:27] Speaker 1: so much for the super chat. And after our first
[4:34:29] Speaker 1: conversation with Joe, I'm shocked he came back, and he
[4:34:32] Speaker 1: came back with more vigor than the first time even, Yeah,
[4:34:36] Speaker 1: like he came in with a little bit augusta thinking
[4:34:38] Speaker 1: he's gonna get me this time.
[4:34:42] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, footed I know.
[4:34:46] Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's it's crazy. Master Machete, you are
[4:34:50] Speaker 1: good to see him, my friend, he says, never forget
[4:34:52] Speaker 1: me when you explode. I would never forget you, Master
[4:34:55] Speaker 1: Machete here. Uh, you're a great friend of the channel.
[4:34:58] Speaker 1: I'd love to see you in the chat. Definitely appreciate
[4:35:01] Speaker 1: having you here.
[4:35:03] Speaker 3: Listen.
[4:35:03] Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually pretty good at remembering these names and faces,
[4:35:08] Speaker 1: and Jeremy, I sometimes I can't match the name to
[4:35:11] Speaker 1: the face, but I remember them, Jeremy says in Levitgas
[4:35:14] Speaker 1: twenty five. The last verse read by Joe is a juxtaposition.
[4:35:18] Speaker 1: Have them look up the definition. Yeah, a juxtaposition like
[4:35:21] Speaker 1: if if I say, listen, you can't treat your brothers harshly,
[4:35:31] Speaker 1: but you can treat your sister harshly. Well, I mean,
[4:35:35] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, let me rephrase that, don't treat your brothers harshly,
[4:35:39] Speaker 1: but of your sisters you can make slaves. What kind
[4:35:42] Speaker 1: of implied that whatever you're doing to the sister is
[4:35:44] Speaker 1: going to be harsh?
[4:35:45] Speaker 4: Well, yeah, Joe found a hack. So it's not a
[4:35:48] Speaker 4: juxtaposition if you just don't read the first clause.
[4:35:51] Speaker 1: I saw that he left that first clause of that
[4:35:54] Speaker 1: last sentence out completely the first time he read it. Oh, defense,
[4:36:02] Speaker 1: thank you for the super Jetz says. The cognitive dissonance
[4:36:05] Speaker 1: with the last guy another case of words don't mean words.
[4:36:08] Speaker 1: Then I don't like the conclusive facts I can't refute. Yeah,
[4:36:12] Speaker 1: that's about it. It's crazy. Listen. I remember being an apologist.
[4:36:17] Speaker 1: I remember giving bad arguments, but I've never been like
[4:36:21] Speaker 1: in that frame of cognitive dissonance where I'm giving bad
[4:36:25] Speaker 1: answers to real problems. When I was there, I was like,
[4:36:28] Speaker 1: oh that sounds like a real issue. Let me consider that,
[4:36:32] Speaker 1: let me look into it, let me read some resources
[4:36:34] Speaker 1: on it.
[4:36:35] Speaker 3: Right.
[4:36:35] Speaker 1: I didn't go in and turn myself into a pretzel
[4:36:38] Speaker 1: that this is dishonest.
[4:36:40] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he was saying voluntary slave. I'm dying
[4:36:44] Speaker 4: over It's an oxymoron. Like by definition forced labor, you
[4:36:48] Speaker 4: can't voluntarily be forced yeah.
[4:36:53] Speaker 1: Uh, And Thornton says, please show Christians the picture of
[4:36:56] Speaker 1: whipped Peter from the Civil War. It took two wants
[4:37:00] Speaker 1: to recover from his whipping textbook Biblical slave beating. Actually,
[4:37:04] Speaker 1: that's a very good point, So whipped Peter. I know
[4:37:07] Speaker 1: the image you're talking about. Put it on the screen
[4:37:08] Speaker 1: and hopefully it doesn't like take my I think down.
[4:37:13] Speaker 1: But this idea that you can beat your slaves, and
[4:37:19] Speaker 1: you can do them pretty harshly is why they treated
[4:37:22] Speaker 1: the slaves in the end to belm South the way
[4:37:24] Speaker 1: that they did. Look at this, Did he lose an
[4:37:27] Speaker 1: eye or tooth?
[4:37:28] Speaker 6: No?
[4:37:28] Speaker 1: Is he dead? No? Therefore, according to the Bible, this
[4:37:32] Speaker 1: is perfectly legal.
[4:37:33] Speaker 3: You can do this.
[4:37:34] Speaker 1: You're allowed to do it.
[4:37:36] Speaker 4: Yeah, And if he died from like infections, that's going
[4:37:39] Speaker 4: to take more than two days.
[4:37:40] Speaker 1: Definitely gonna take a couple of days. Must have been
[4:37:42] Speaker 1: an accident. It's crazy, But I mean, that guy's got
[4:37:47] Speaker 1: it all figured out. Us atheists with no morals, we
[4:37:52] Speaker 1: just can't understand it. Our brains are too small. Acne says,
[4:37:57] Speaker 1: I think Satan is the hero see Genesis and job.
[4:38:02] Speaker 1: Actually I agree. If you look at all the shit
[4:38:05] Speaker 1: Yahweh does and look what Satan does, Satan's the one
[4:38:09] Speaker 1: in here. Like just when he does anything negative, he's
[4:38:12] Speaker 1: doing God's bidding. Theoretically, like what he did with job.
[4:38:15] Speaker 4: I meant Satan wasn't in Genesis.
[4:38:20] Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that that's actually a very point. Satan had
[4:38:22] Speaker 1: nothing to do with Genesis. By the way, if this snake,
[4:38:27] Speaker 1: if the snake was Satan, then it's crazy that snakes
[4:38:33] Speaker 1: were cursed to live in the dirt of the earth
[4:38:36] Speaker 1: and to crawl on their bellies. If if snakes didn't
[4:38:40] Speaker 1: do anything, why are snakes being punished? Satan doesn't crawl
[4:38:44] Speaker 1: on his belly and eat dirt. Well, Justin says bring
[4:38:49] Speaker 1: back Gerald Margarita. Uh, whatever happened with that conversation? I
[4:38:55] Speaker 1: don't remember that one going very far. What I already
[4:38:58] Speaker 1: forgot shit, Yeah, we've been live too long. Actually I
[4:39:03] Speaker 1: forget some of the earlier guests. Asian says, Joe argued
[4:39:06] Speaker 1: about him being a slave to Jesus, so his free
[4:39:09] Speaker 1: will is garbage. Actually, that's such a good point. If
[4:39:11] Speaker 1: you're a slave to Jesus, got no free will. This
[4:39:14] Speaker 1: makes me conclude that Christians always detached from reality. Listen
[4:39:18] Speaker 1: a million percent right, Christians. What they do is they
[4:39:21] Speaker 1: hear an argument and they slap a band aid on
[4:39:23] Speaker 1: it without thinking for one second what other problem is
[4:39:26] Speaker 1: created by that? Band aid. Then when you pointed out
[4:39:29] Speaker 1: to them, they got to put another band aid on it.
[4:39:31] Speaker 1: So Christianity is a hopeless series of just putting one
[4:39:35] Speaker 1: cover on top of another cover. It's like whack a mole.
[4:39:37] Speaker 1: They're just playing whack a mole.
[4:39:39] Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's like the old uh like Looney sits
[4:39:43] Speaker 4: of stuff where it's like you fill a leak and
[4:39:44] Speaker 4: then he just pops up somewhere else.
[4:39:46] Speaker 1: You do that one.
[4:39:48] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy, like robbing Peter to all that stuff.
[4:39:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, said yeah, yeah. Uh. Joe Ane says, uh
[4:39:57] Speaker 1: briy the crazy, he's much love for himself Africa. Well, Johanne,
[4:40:01] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the love from South Africa.
[4:40:05] Speaker 1: And I think I'm pronouncing that correctly now, so I
[4:40:07] Speaker 1: appreciate the chat. Let me know if I screw up though,
[4:40:11] Speaker 1: and midlife comes in again, says your pronunciation is on point.
[4:40:15] Speaker 1: Fly bride guy, thank you so much. I'm glad I'm
[4:40:18] Speaker 1: starting to learn to lingo. Now I can put on
[4:40:20] Speaker 1: my resume that I speak South African. I think, isn't
[4:40:22] Speaker 1: that how Christians do it? If you know one word
[4:40:24] Speaker 1: in the language, you know the language.
[4:40:26] Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm fluent.
[4:40:28] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fluting South African. I know Brie.
[4:40:32] Speaker 4: I don't know if if you see me do this
[4:40:34] Speaker 4: thing that I've gotten into recently, where people who like
[4:40:38] Speaker 4: speak Hebrew or say they do. I put up Hebrew
[4:40:41] Speaker 4: on the screen, and you know, like Google Translate you
[4:40:44] Speaker 4: can do like a side by side or whatever, so
[4:40:46] Speaker 4: I put like it shows the characters like what does
[4:40:50] Speaker 4: this say? And then they never know, so it just
[4:40:52] Speaker 4: pan over and it says I don't know how to
[4:40:53] Speaker 4: read Hebrew. It was the translated phrase.
[4:40:56] Speaker 1: I love it. I tried to start small, like, for example,
[4:41:04] Speaker 1: you can learn various words in any language, but it's
[4:41:07] Speaker 1: almost meaningless because like, for example, when when I went
[4:41:10] Speaker 1: to Mexico, I was in Mexico for like three or
[4:41:12] Speaker 1: four months back when I was like twenty two. I
[4:41:14] Speaker 1: was still on a job site down there for a
[4:41:16] Speaker 1: long time, and I was like, I'm going to learn
[4:41:19] Speaker 1: some Spanish. I learned some Spanish. I learned a lot
[4:41:21] Speaker 1: of words, but like I realized very early on, if
[4:41:24] Speaker 1: I want to communicate effectively, I have to be able
[4:41:26] Speaker 1: to appropriately conjugate verbs. I have to be able to
[4:41:30] Speaker 1: use past tense, future tense president tents like I got
[4:41:33] Speaker 1: to do all this grammar. I can't just learn a
[4:41:35] Speaker 1: word and think I know the language, right, And so
[4:41:38] Speaker 1: I went through the painful steps of like trying to
[4:41:41] Speaker 1: talk to people to teach me how the grammar works.
[4:41:43] Speaker 1: So when people come in and at tell me they
[4:41:45] Speaker 1: know Greek or Hebrew, I can tell right off the
[4:41:48] Speaker 1: bat that typically they learned a couple words, now they
[4:41:50] Speaker 1: think they know the language. No, you don't. You have
[4:41:52] Speaker 1: to know how to conjugate verbs, decline nouns parse words.
[4:41:56] Speaker 1: If you can't do any of that, you don't know
[4:41:57] Speaker 1: how the language works.
[4:41:59] Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you kind of have to know what
[4:42:00] Speaker 4: that stuff even means, right, Like it's like, as an
[4:42:04] Speaker 4: English speaker, you just that's how you do it. You're
[4:42:06] Speaker 4: taught those things, but not that what they mean, not
[4:42:10] Speaker 4: the terms behind them. Like conjugating verb. You know, you
[4:42:14] Speaker 4: know what it is to conjugati verb, but you can't
[4:42:16] Speaker 4: really define how that's done. Now you don't know why
[4:42:19] Speaker 4: you know as you're learning it, right, Yeah, but when
[4:42:23] Speaker 4: you're learning a foreign language, you have to learn all
[4:42:25] Speaker 4: the rules, Like you need to know how you get
[4:42:28] Speaker 4: from past tense to future tense, or especially in Hebrew,
[4:42:31] Speaker 4: how do you take the same word and make it
[4:42:34] Speaker 4: passive versus active, or how do you intensify it, or
[4:42:39] Speaker 4: how do you turn it into a participle or an infinitive.
[4:42:42] Speaker 4: So like, we've got all these conjugation conjugation methods and
[4:42:45] Speaker 4: they're super important because the word can mean something completely
[4:42:48] Speaker 4: different if you just conjugate it improperly.
[4:42:52] Speaker 1: Yeah, Master michellde here, it is. It's a hot mess
[4:42:56] Speaker 1: when it comes to conjugation. Hebrew is a highly highly
[4:43:00] Speaker 1: conjugated language. It's a little bit different than English. But
[4:43:03] Speaker 1: Master michell Here says, punishing the snake for Satan set
[4:43:07] Speaker 1: up the typology for God to punish someone else as
[4:43:10] Speaker 1: another person's sin.
[4:43:14] Speaker 4: You're not wrong, it's the real foreshadowing prophecy is like
[4:43:20] Speaker 4: having a scapegoat escape snake.
[4:43:25] Speaker 1: I will never forget escape snake. Now. That is forever
[4:43:29] Speaker 1: part of the argument bag which will be coming out.
[4:43:33] Speaker 1: Mister mcdizzel says, getting to watch Master Chef Justin live
[4:43:37] Speaker 1: is such a treat. Congrat Justin on making the move
[4:43:40] Speaker 1: to full time. Keep up the good work. Well, thank you,
[4:43:42] Speaker 1: mister mcdizzel. I appreciate the kind words and appreciate the support.
[4:43:47] Speaker 1: I can't say that I know exactly what my new
[4:43:50] Speaker 1: schedule is gonna be, but I know that as soon
[4:43:53] Speaker 1: as fall rolls around, we're going to be really cranking
[4:43:56] Speaker 1: up the heat on the grill. And Antie says, embarrassed
[4:43:58] Speaker 1: to ask, but what is the origin of big W?
[4:44:01] Speaker 1: Don't worry, listen, there are no stupid questions here unless
[4:44:03] Speaker 1: you're a theist, and then there are some stupid questions.
[4:44:07] Speaker 1: But a big W just means big win. So in
[4:44:10] Speaker 1: sports we refer to like l's and w's as wins
[4:44:12] Speaker 1: and losses. And because the debate scene is very like
[4:44:16] Speaker 1: watching a sporting event, we use some of the same terminology.
[4:44:20] Speaker 1: It just kind of comes over. Alfro says, Doug is
[4:44:23] Speaker 1: the grounding for me to film film my bro, Doug.
[4:44:31] Speaker 1: Doug is the grounding. And and what's the ground made of?
[4:44:34] Speaker 1: Have you looked around? It's made of Doug. So if
[4:44:38] Speaker 1: Doug's not the grounding of all things, what what are
[4:44:41] Speaker 1: we talking about here anymore?
[4:44:43] Speaker 4: Yeah, there are three modes of Doug. Yeah, think about
[4:44:46] Speaker 4: that precisely.
[4:44:48] Speaker 1: And Anthony, look, Anthony's got a miracle, it says, Doug
[4:44:51] Speaker 1: fix my errectile dysfunction. Thank you, Doug and your all
[4:44:55] Speaker 1: knowing good hardness. Guys, if you want to beat rock hard,
[4:44:59] Speaker 1: you got to get rock hard for Doug first. That's
[4:45:01] Speaker 1: how you do it. And Solar coming in again, thank
[4:45:06] Speaker 1: you so much for the nine nine. Superted says X
[4:45:09] Speaker 1: of God being localized. I don't know what was X
[4:45:12] Speaker 1: example example. Sorry I was saying example of God being localized.
[4:45:17] Speaker 1: Last plague of Egypt, he flew through the city, killing
[4:45:20] Speaker 1: the firstborn of people who didn't paint the door. If
[4:45:23] Speaker 1: he was omnipresent, what was the point of painting the doors.
[4:45:27] Speaker 1: So this is actually a really good point. The painting
[4:45:30] Speaker 1: of the doors in Exodus presents so many problems. Number one,
[4:45:36] Speaker 1: God can't be all knowing if he needs you to
[4:45:39] Speaker 1: paint the doors of the houses, that this all there
[4:45:43] Speaker 1: is to it. So so now you've got a problem.
[4:45:46] Speaker 1: Number two is if all the if all the Israelites
[4:45:51] Speaker 1: have separate houses from their slave owners, they're not really slaves.
[4:45:57] Speaker 1: It sounds much more like corvet labor to me. And
[4:46:01] Speaker 1: that's the case. Then he I assume if there were Israelites,
[4:46:08] Speaker 1: firstborn Israelites living in Egyptian households, they would have been dead,
[4:46:13] Speaker 1: would have killed his.
[4:46:14] Speaker 4: Own crazy Ye absolutely.
[4:46:19] Speaker 1: And Noah's Lions with us again. Thank you so much,
[4:46:21] Speaker 1: says we need Doug theme Rook cards decon tournament. I
[4:46:26] Speaker 1: knew you would play Rook. As as the words were
[4:46:29] Speaker 1: leaving my mouth, I was like, I bet Noah's Lions
[4:46:33] Speaker 1: plays Rook. I can guarantee it. She's X men and
[4:46:37] Speaker 1: I she's got to play Rook the omish in the minute,
[4:46:39] Speaker 1: I know how to play Rook. Uh. So anyways, yes,
[4:46:43] Speaker 1: we can find a way. There's a website where I
[4:46:46] Speaker 1: can make custom card games. We should do a Doug
[4:46:49] Speaker 1: and Sharon Rook card game. Let's make that a reality.
[4:46:53] Speaker 1: But Rook Rook is such a fun game. If you
[4:46:56] Speaker 1: if you like Yuker, Rook is like Uker on steroids.
[4:46:59] Speaker 1: It's amazing you get ten cards instead of you know,
[4:47:03] Speaker 1: a lousy five. There he goes Hannah, my friend, thank
[4:47:07] Speaker 1: you for the super chest, says LF. I know it
[4:47:11] Speaker 1: means life of fear. I think hell, Doug. So, yes,
[4:47:18] Speaker 1: if you're a Christian, that's exactly what lof is. You
[4:47:21] Speaker 1: live a life of fear that God is gonna throw
[4:47:23] Speaker 1: you into hell for committing a minor infraction and not repenting.
[4:47:29] Speaker 1: But you can own slaves remember you can own slaves. Bro,
[4:47:34] Speaker 1: thank you for the nine nine to nine says joke
[4:47:36] Speaker 1: about God being everywhere. A Holocaust survivor dies and goes
[4:47:39] Speaker 1: to heaven. He tells God a Holocaust joke. God, Holocaust
[4:47:43] Speaker 1: jokes aren't funny, survivor, I guess you just had to
[4:47:46] Speaker 1: be there.
[4:47:48] Speaker 4: That's rough.
[4:47:51] Speaker 1: That it's done so many levels. That's like a three
[4:47:56] Speaker 1: layer burrito of a joke. I really appreciate that one.
[4:48:04] Speaker 1: And Mike says, love Ortho. Doork need an emoji for
[4:48:08] Speaker 1: that too? Actually, you're right, I do love a good
[4:48:11] Speaker 1: Ortho pun. I don't have a great emoji for the Orthodox.
[4:48:19] Speaker 1: We need to work on that. If you have a
[4:48:20] Speaker 1: good idea for that, send me one in my inbox.
[4:48:24] Speaker 1: Noah's Lions actually do. She does a great job with
[4:48:27] Speaker 1: her emojis. She sent me the baby paste emoji. So
[4:48:32] Speaker 1: if you're on one of the memberships, you got access
[4:48:35] Speaker 1: to the emojis and you've seen the new baby paste
[4:48:37] Speaker 1: emoji she made that that was hers. So if you
[4:48:40] Speaker 1: guys send me a really good emoji out added up,
[4:48:43] Speaker 1: I'd love to. It'd be great. And from Mike Thorn,
[4:48:47] Speaker 1: we got a thirteen ninety nine super thanks big big
[4:48:51] Speaker 1: w Mike. I appreciate that. And ZM says to Joe, sorry,
[4:48:55] Speaker 1: he's goney cancer, as Christians could say, and I mean it.
[4:48:58] Speaker 1: If Christianity is true, I hope you will find that out.
[4:49:01] Speaker 1: If it's not true, I hope you will find that out.
[4:49:05] Speaker 1: That that's humility. Actually, see if that's a fair point.
[4:49:08] Speaker 1: If Joe is being humble and not being passive progressive,
[4:49:12] Speaker 1: he would say, I hope you find the truth even
[4:49:15] Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. That's what he should have said.
[4:49:18] Speaker 4: I mean, that's the goal. It should be the goal.
[4:49:21] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not here just to cook Christians like I
[4:49:24] Speaker 1: want to know what's true, like anybody else. If I
[4:49:26] Speaker 1: got online and it turns out all my arguments were
[4:49:28] Speaker 1: dogshit and it turned out Christianity was true, I'd be
[4:49:32] Speaker 1: hosting a live stream right now telling you that Christianity
[4:49:34] Speaker 1: was true. There's not like I'm here saying things that
[4:49:39] Speaker 1: I believe are true. It just happens that you don't
[4:49:42] Speaker 1: think they're true. I mean, obviously Matthew and I agree,
[4:49:45] Speaker 1: but you know Christians don't think that. And Johannah says,
[4:49:49] Speaker 1: why didn't Jesus write his own book? It sure would
[4:49:52] Speaker 1: have clarified so many things. Johanna, this is such a
[4:49:55] Speaker 1: good point because, like listen, God theoretically wrote with his
[4:49:59] Speaker 1: finger on the tablets that he gave to Moses. What
[4:50:01] Speaker 1: would stop him from making his own book that was
[4:50:04] Speaker 1: like miraculous in nature, that made all kinds of predictions
[4:50:08] Speaker 1: that only God could have known, was written in a
[4:50:11] Speaker 1: material no one's ever seen that's completely indestructible and has
[4:50:14] Speaker 1: all these properties that nothing on earth ever had. Like
[4:50:17] Speaker 1: he could have done that, He's God. He didn't do
[4:50:20] Speaker 1: it because he doesn't exist. And Spencer said, thanks for
[4:50:23] Speaker 1: cooking me on my birthday. Well, Spencer, I don't know
[4:50:26] Speaker 1: which guest you were. I don't know if I oh
[4:50:28] Speaker 1: cooking for me. Sorry I didn't read very well. Thanks
[4:50:31] Speaker 1: for cooking for me on my birthday. Well, Listen, I
[4:50:34] Speaker 1: hope you had a good birthday dinner of fried apologists
[4:50:38] Speaker 1: or perhaps grilled apologist. I'm not sure which way you
[4:50:41] Speaker 1: take it. Certainly well done, not medium, rare, but Spence,
[4:50:45] Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here and for support
[4:50:47] Speaker 1: in the stream. Appreciate that. And Carlos is with us,
[4:50:50] Speaker 1: my friend Carlos, thank you so much for twenty deconstruction Zone.
[4:50:54] Speaker 1: Membership said super generous, my friend, Thank you so much. Carlos. Carlos,
[4:50:58] Speaker 1: I see you in like every life stream. You're such
[4:51:01] Speaker 1: a great supporter. I really appreciate you always being with us.
[4:51:04] Speaker 1: This is what makes our community so strong. And Mason,
[4:51:07] Speaker 1: thank you so much for the ten dollars praise. Doug
[4:51:10] Speaker 1: hail the rock of ages. Don't take Doug for granted.
[4:51:14] Speaker 1: He will rock your world. And Johannah says, Jesus was
[4:51:17] Speaker 1: a woman, so not a king a queen. Johannah, you're
[4:51:20] Speaker 1: you're he had He wasn't given any male chromosomes from
[4:51:24] Speaker 1: his father Joseph. He only had Mary's chromosome structure. He
[4:51:27] Speaker 1: had to be trans at best. This all there is
[4:51:30] Speaker 1: to it. Johannah, you're one hundred percent right. And Ax says,
[4:51:34] Speaker 1: why is slow mode on sub only mode? I feel
[4:51:41] Speaker 1: like Justin said, don't do that. Mods any who's I'm
[4:51:44] Speaker 1: rock hard for Doug. Much love to y'all, stay hard well. Ax.
[4:51:48] Speaker 1: I did try to keep the this the slow mode
[4:51:51] Speaker 1: down to only like a couple seconds, like five seconds
[4:51:54] Speaker 1: only because when you get trolls that spammed the comments,
[4:51:58] Speaker 1: if you set it to like a five second delay,
[4:52:00] Speaker 1: it prevents them from spamming. That's about it.
[4:52:02] Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's not great that you have to do it,
[4:52:05] Speaker 4: but you have to understand the reason. They're absolutely brutal
[4:52:09] Speaker 4: when they when they get their teeth into one, that's
[4:52:12] Speaker 4: just Yeah, it makes it unreadable and it's brutal for everybody.
[4:52:16] Speaker 1: I wish I didn't have to. When I first started
[4:52:18] Speaker 1: eve eve L, one of my mods turned it on
[4:52:23] Speaker 1: and I asked to turn it back off, and then
[4:52:25] Speaker 1: we had a long conversation offline, and I did some
[4:52:30] Speaker 1: thinking about it, and she was right. She was one
[4:52:32] Speaker 1: hundred percent right, So I turned it back on. See,
[4:52:35] Speaker 1: I'm willing to be wrong as long as I'm presented
[4:52:37] Speaker 1: with a good reason to be wrong. Johanna with another
[4:52:41] Speaker 1: super jed thank you so much. As Jesus was a
[4:52:43] Speaker 1: woman fed many with little oh this is good, tried
[4:52:46] Speaker 1: to get a message across to close minded men got
[4:52:49] Speaker 1: up from the dead because she's she's had so many
[4:52:54] Speaker 1: chores to do. Actually, that that does check out. Jesus behaved,
[4:53:00] Speaker 1: does seem quite motherly in some occasions, and Johannah come
[4:53:05] Speaker 1: in again, thank you, friend says Jesus was literally was
[4:53:08] Speaker 1: illiterate because they didn't allow girls to be educated. She's
[4:53:12] Speaker 1: still going because they didn't allow girls to be educated.
[4:53:15] Speaker 1: He showed up on the scene around age thirty, passed
[4:53:19] Speaker 1: herself off as a man so she could get a
[4:53:22] Speaker 1: little respect and recognition. Listen, I'll buy it.
[4:53:27] Speaker 4: She's a real daddy's girl.
[4:53:29] Speaker 1: That's much much better fan fiction to what would get
[4:53:33] Speaker 1: in the Bible. I would read that all day. And Daniel,
[4:53:38] Speaker 1: good to see you again tonight. He says, weird that
[4:53:40] Speaker 1: Joe said that the kjv's Old Testament is from Texas
[4:53:43] Speaker 1: receptis when the TR is only the New Testament. I know, listen,
[4:53:47] Speaker 1: I can only jump on so many bad statements, but
[4:53:49] Speaker 1: he doesn't know the difference between the TR and the
[4:53:54] Speaker 1: Shoot give me a second. It's good late. I forgot
[4:53:59] Speaker 1: the Uh. The Old Testament t R is the received
[4:54:02] Speaker 1: text or the texts receptives for the New Testament. The
[4:54:05] Speaker 1: other is the massoretic text.
[4:54:10] Speaker 4: But I felt like I'd be wrong.
[4:54:11] Speaker 1: No, you got yeah, so the yeah, the King James
[4:54:16] Speaker 1: relies pretty heavily on the Massoretic. But never and well,
[4:54:21] Speaker 1: they do realize there was a couple spots where they
[4:54:24] Speaker 1: were missing Greek texts from even the TR and they
[4:54:28] Speaker 1: had this back translated from Latin, and so that's a
[4:54:32] Speaker 1: fun situation. Yeah, the sixteen eleven has a number of
[4:54:35] Speaker 1: passages that were backwards translated from from Latin back into
[4:54:40] Speaker 1: Greek to complete their Greek manuscripts. Parts of John in
[4:54:45] Speaker 1: Revelation to be precise, if I remember correctly, you can
[4:54:48] Speaker 1: fact check me on it. But I'm pretty sure it's
[4:54:49] Speaker 1: John in Revelation. Let's see. Rodent, thank you for the
[4:54:54] Speaker 1: super jest says you're cooking him so hard you should
[4:54:56] Speaker 1: have a Food Network show. Listen. I do have a
[4:54:59] Speaker 1: chef around here somewhere, but it's a little warm in
[4:55:02] Speaker 1: this room. I need air conditioning, but the er conditioning
[4:55:06] Speaker 1: is too loud, so I can't really turn it on.
[4:55:09] Speaker 1: Mind Forge, thank you for the superchat, says the two
[4:55:11] Speaker 1: powers in heaven thing is confined almost exclusively to Enoch.
[4:55:16] Speaker 1: I agree, yes, yes, the second power is Metatrone, which
[4:55:19] Speaker 1: is Enoch. It was likely never a pervasive belief and
[4:55:23] Speaker 1: implies Enoch is the son of Man. Mind Forge, you're
[4:55:26] Speaker 1: one hundred percent right. This nonsense about two powers in
[4:55:29] Speaker 1: heaven and the second power being Jesus is just like
[4:55:33] Speaker 1: the horrible reading of the Talmud in Suka fifty four
[4:55:37] Speaker 1: or fifty two. I think it's Suka fifty two where
[4:55:40] Speaker 1: they get this crazy idea of two messiahs, the Messiah
[4:55:43] Speaker 1: been Joseph and Messiah been David. That's not really what's
[4:55:47] Speaker 1: in there, right, But they take anything that sounds remotely
[4:55:51] Speaker 1: similar to what could be about Jesus and they're like, oh,
[4:55:54] Speaker 1: that sounds vaguely, roughly familiar as long as you squint
[4:55:57] Speaker 1: hard enough, and then they make it about Jesus, and
[4:56:00] Speaker 1: unsuspecting people who don't know any better, who haven't read
[4:56:03] Speaker 1: the original text they're pulling from the get hoodwinked. They
[4:56:06] Speaker 1: have no idea what's happening. And Aaron says, now, words
[4:56:11] Speaker 1: not only don't mean words, they're people. Lock them up,
[4:56:18] Speaker 1: absolutely fucking up. There's no end to the unjust justifications
[4:56:25] Speaker 1: people make to support their presupposed beliefs. A million percent. Listen,
[4:56:29] Speaker 1: there's nothing you won't do when your religious beliefs are
[4:56:33] Speaker 1: challenged if you're a Christian, except for being honest. You're
[4:56:37] Speaker 1: not going to be honest. That's not going to happen.
[4:56:39] Speaker 1: And Jake, my friend, thank you for the six sixty
[4:56:41] Speaker 1: six big w my friend, says, how do you stop
[4:56:44] Speaker 1: a Mormon from drinking all your beer and fight two
[4:56:47] Speaker 1: of them? I love it because you need the accountability.
[4:56:51] Speaker 1: If you just have one Mormon, he'll drink the beer,
[4:56:54] Speaker 1: but the other Mormon will hold them accountable and read
[4:56:56] Speaker 1: them out. That was my reading of the joke. Hopefully
[4:56:59] Speaker 1: I read that.
[4:57:00] Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's I've read that one before. Yeah, that's
[4:57:02] Speaker 4: exactly what it is to the two will keep each
[4:57:05] Speaker 4: other honest.
[4:57:06] Speaker 1: That's what it is.
[4:57:07] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[4:57:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a shame based religion. Monkey, thank you for
[4:57:12] Speaker 1: the two dollars, super thanks. I really appreciate that. Friend
[4:57:15] Speaker 1: and Rodent. Come in again, says Rodent. I'm sorry that's
[4:57:19] Speaker 1: your name. Cooking like a chef made a pretzel out
[4:57:22] Speaker 1: of him. He was a salty pretzel at the end,
[4:57:25] Speaker 1: I think, and then quickly vanished. I assume his connection
[4:57:29] Speaker 1: fell out. Johannah, come in again, Johannah says. Jesus says
[4:57:33] Speaker 1: to his father Dad, you've been pretty vague. Nobody is
[4:57:37] Speaker 1: getting your message. Send me down there and I'll straighten
[4:57:40] Speaker 1: out these pesky humans with the latest technology. Couldn't you
[4:57:45] Speaker 1: imagine being Jesus up in heaven being like I died
[4:57:48] Speaker 1: so less than a third, about a third of people
[4:57:52] Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five would believe in me and then
[4:57:54] Speaker 1: slowly get out outpaced by Islam. I did That's what
[4:57:58] Speaker 1: I died for.
[4:58:00] Speaker 4: How could I do this to me?
[4:58:02] Speaker 1: How could I do this to me? I will never
[4:58:07] Speaker 1: get I will never get not excited talking about the
[4:58:11] Speaker 1: nonsense of the Trinity. Yeah, it's always fun. It never
[4:58:17] Speaker 1: they can't they have nothing, They have no way to
[4:58:19] Speaker 1: explain it.
[4:58:20] Speaker 4: I don't know if you heard me earlier when I
[4:58:22] Speaker 4: mentioned John fourteen six, and it's like, no one gets
[4:58:25] Speaker 4: to the gets to me without but through me.
[4:58:33] Speaker 1: Oh so bad. Aaron, my friend. Great to see you, buddy,
[4:58:38] Speaker 1: Aaron says, uh. If we are going by spiritual math,
[4:58:42] Speaker 1: then in the name of Doug, I will spiritually die
[4:58:45] Speaker 1: for justin Listen, my friend, I really appreciate that you
[4:58:49] Speaker 1: don't have to you support this stream so much. I
[4:58:52] Speaker 1: really appreciate your kindness, your generosity, and your inteligence. But
[4:58:56] Speaker 1: I'm glad that you'll spiritually die for me. Listen out
[4:58:59] Speaker 1: the spiritual die for all you guys. Just remember that
[4:59:01] Speaker 1: words don't mean words. As share a oldest daughter, big
[4:59:07] Speaker 1: w on the name, thank you for the five dollar
[4:59:08] Speaker 1: super Jet says, I know you don't watch Marvel movies,
[4:59:10] Speaker 1: but iron Man died for our sins. If it's that easy,
[4:59:15] Speaker 1: thank you. Justin I've learned so much. Did iron Man
[4:59:18] Speaker 1: die for someone else's crimes?
[4:59:19] Speaker 4: Was that what happened? Well? He in the Last of
[4:59:23] Speaker 4: the Last like the main movies. Yeah, he did those
[4:59:26] Speaker 4: self sacrificing. It wasn't for sins, but yeah.
[4:59:30] Speaker 1: So did so did uh shit was the name of
[4:59:35] Speaker 1: that movie in Grand Trino? Oh?
[4:59:39] Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah when he fake was he put on
[4:59:42] Speaker 4: a lighter or something?
[4:59:43] Speaker 5: Yeah?
[4:59:45] Speaker 4: Yeah, you can get all those guys like sent to
[4:59:47] Speaker 4: jail for this exactly. Yeah.
[4:59:50] Speaker 1: He sacrifices himself, Clinton E. Floyd and Grand Trino sacrifices
[4:59:54] Speaker 1: himself to save the life of that young kid so
[4:59:57] Speaker 1: he doesn't get sucked into being a gangbanger. Fun movie, actually,
[5:00:02] Speaker 1: really fun movie. Rodent says, would you do a clod
[5:00:07] Speaker 1: with Pologia? Actually, I'm working on that right now. I
[5:00:11] Speaker 1: think he left me an email a couple days he
[5:00:13] Speaker 1: going and haven't responded to. I apologize if you're watching Apologia,
[5:00:16] Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm really I'm working on it. I want
[5:00:18] Speaker 1: to get a clab with him and talk about resurrection
[5:00:21] Speaker 1: hypotheses because I think mine's good and I can support
[5:00:24] Speaker 1: it with lots and lots of evidence from the ancient
[5:00:27] Speaker 1: world that impostors were going around pretending to be people
[5:00:31] Speaker 1: that were resurrected. I've been collecting sources on it. I've
[5:00:34] Speaker 1: got documents on it where people claim to see somebody
[5:00:38] Speaker 1: resurrected or come from the dead and turns out they
[5:00:40] Speaker 1: were either faking it or it was an impostor. We
[5:00:43] Speaker 1: have data from the ancient world on this. And what,
[5:00:47] Speaker 1: like Mammoth says, justin is the mythicist position that Jesus
[5:00:51] Speaker 1: in totality was definitely a myth or just that it's
[5:00:54] Speaker 1: not one hundred percent that he existed. So yeah, that's
[5:00:58] Speaker 1: the idea in mythicism. He didn't exist at all. He
[5:01:01] Speaker 1: was completely fabricated. Yeah, it's a positive claim, exactly, am right.
[5:01:06] Speaker 1: I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't accept like I
[5:01:12] Speaker 1: don't I'm not convinced that there was a historical Jesus,
[5:01:14] Speaker 1: but I don't claim the mythisis position, right. But the
[5:01:18] Speaker 1: more I read of like the New Testament, the prophecies shit,
[5:01:21] Speaker 1: the closer I get to that because they're just so
[5:01:24] Speaker 1: obviously made up.
[5:01:25] Speaker 4: They are that like going to Egypt and all that shit.
[5:01:28] Speaker 4: It's like the fuck out of heir well.
[5:01:29] Speaker 1: So that's why I always try to be gracious to
[5:01:33] Speaker 1: the mythsist, because I listen. Even though I believe Jesus
[5:01:36] Speaker 1: was a real person, ninety percent of what the New
[5:01:38] Speaker 1: Testament says about him is obviously mythology is just fabricated.
[5:01:42] Speaker 1: So we we have a lot more than we agree on. Rod,
[5:01:49] Speaker 1: thank you for the one hundred, he says, Hey, justin
[5:01:52] Speaker 1: for charity purposes, I suggest putting together a sexy calendar
[5:01:56] Speaker 1: with male atheist YouTubers hard like the Almighty Doug.
[5:02:00] Speaker 6: So.
[5:02:01] Speaker 1: Actually, I've talked about this. I don't know if we're
[5:02:05] Speaker 1: gonna make it a reality, but I think we we
[5:02:08] Speaker 1: should talk about this more. We were talking about this
[5:02:10] Speaker 1: last time we did a fundraiser, and I think it's
[5:02:13] Speaker 1: a good idea. I think we get a lot of
[5:02:15] Speaker 1: people in on it. I certainly would want one. I'm
[5:02:18] Speaker 1: sure Mac wants one. Mac you want to do a spread? Sure,
[5:02:22] Speaker 1: I mean we got a lot of people that buy in.
[5:02:26] Speaker 1: Mike Hunt says, I love deconstruction, Dilf's keep it up well, Hey,
[5:02:30] Speaker 1: thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. I don't know if
[5:02:33] Speaker 1: I've ever been called a dilf, but I'll take it.
[5:02:36] Speaker 1: I certainly appreciate that. And uh Andy, thank you for
[5:02:39] Speaker 1: the two ninety nine super thanks, thumbs up, super appreciate
[5:02:43] Speaker 1: you supporting the stream. And Jay says, is it true
[5:02:46] Speaker 1: that Doug is the only rock that can exist as plasma?
[5:02:50] Speaker 1: A good question. I would assume that Sharon could as well,
[5:02:54] Speaker 1: and Rocky obviously could as well, So I don't think
[5:02:57] Speaker 1: he's the only rock that could exist as play but
[5:03:01] Speaker 1: just count as modalism. I need to pray to Doug
[5:03:07] Speaker 1: for more revelation about his essence. We'll see. We'll see
[5:03:14] Speaker 1: about that. And Jay says, do you feel you're emerging
[5:03:17] Speaker 1: as the voice of atheism? Jay, I don't know if
[5:03:19] Speaker 1: that's the case. I do know this, when it comes
[5:03:24] Speaker 1: to counter apologetics for Christianity, I feel like I'm I'm
[5:03:29] Speaker 1: probably doing I'm a top tier job. I'm sure there
[5:03:34] Speaker 1: are people that can do better than me. I'm sure
[5:03:35] Speaker 1: of it, But when it comes to counter apologists for
[5:03:40] Speaker 1: other religions, I'm certainly not the best. There are a
[5:03:42] Speaker 1: lot of people, like even the Christians that are doing
[5:03:45] Speaker 1: counter Islam arguments are phenomenal, Like I couldn't be I
[5:03:48] Speaker 1: couldn't do that.
[5:03:50] Speaker 4: It's amazing how they mop each other. Yeah, but like
[5:03:53] Speaker 4: can't turn that, you know inward.
[5:03:56] Speaker 1: That is the craziest thing watching the Christians and muslim
[5:03:59] Speaker 1: completely destroy each other's religions and never look inward and
[5:04:02] Speaker 1: be like, well, maybe they're both bullshit. This is wild
[5:04:06] Speaker 1: to watch. It is wild. Walking Bones says, just donating
[5:04:11] Speaker 1: so the stream doesn't end. Well, that's one way to
[5:04:16] Speaker 1: do it. Walking Bone says, what I can do. I
[5:04:19] Speaker 1: appreciate that, big w my friend for supporting. And as
[5:04:22] Speaker 1: SHARE's oldest daughter in again says I'm happy. I'm a
[5:04:25] Speaker 1: happy slave. Oh shit, as Shaff's daughter, who are you
[5:04:29] Speaker 1: a slave to? Are you a slave to a Shaa?
[5:04:34] Speaker 1: Because according to that guy, being a slave and being
[5:04:36] Speaker 1: the child the same thing, right, So if you're the
[5:04:38] Speaker 1: oldest daughter of a shera, then technically you are a slave.
[5:04:41] Speaker 1: But anyways, the idea that you could be a happy
[5:04:46] Speaker 1: slave in the end to bell them south is preposterous.
[5:04:49] Speaker 1: But I know I could have pushed him to it.
[5:04:51] Speaker 1: And Chris says, why do most Christians accept the biblical
[5:04:55] Speaker 1: canon because it's too complicated to consider that the canon
[5:05:00] Speaker 1: might not be inspired, or that their Bible might not
[5:05:03] Speaker 1: be complete. That's something that they're just not prepared to
[5:05:05] Speaker 1: take on. So they accept what's been fed to them.
[5:05:08] Speaker 1: And Asian says, what is a reverse Bible? The good
[5:05:11] Speaker 1: guy God is the bad guy and the bad guys say,
[5:05:14] Speaker 1: it's actually the good guy. Actually, I think that's just
[5:05:17] Speaker 1: the real, the regular Bible. I think that's the real
[5:05:20] Speaker 1: Bible we have in our hands.
[5:05:22] Speaker 4: And find the metric that it doesn't work that way.
[5:05:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and no coming again says and you're you're
[5:05:30] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And you compete for cat amish names? Wait,
[5:05:36] Speaker 1: what happened? I compete for cats?
[5:05:40] Speaker 6: I don't know.
[5:05:42] Speaker 1: Oh, now I got questions. Hit me up after the stream.
[5:05:46] Speaker 1: Let me know what you're referring to. What well in
[5:05:50] Speaker 1: the Game of Rook?
[5:05:51] Speaker 4: I don't Oh, that's right, there's the game I know
[5:05:56] Speaker 4: nothing about.
[5:05:56] Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know any cats in the Game of Rook. Now,
[5:05:59] Speaker 1: I've got questions. We'll talk about it. Mike says, are
[5:06:02] Speaker 1: you married? Mike?
[5:06:03] Speaker 6: I am.
[5:06:03] Speaker 1: I'm not married, but I have a loving cat and
[5:06:07] Speaker 1: an adorable son. But I'm not married, but a lot
[5:06:10] Speaker 1: of people have asked, and Acne says, a donation for
[5:06:16] Speaker 1: how could I? How could I do this to me?
[5:06:21] Speaker 1: That was a great line. It's an amazing line. Thank
[5:06:25] Speaker 1: you Acme, thank you acmee, thank you Macluster actually for
[5:06:30] Speaker 1: that one. And mister briefs Uh says, what does it
[5:06:32] Speaker 1: take to satisfy an Amish woman at least two men
[5:06:36] Speaker 1: a nite? Oh shit, that is a play on words
[5:06:41] Speaker 1: two men per night. And what he say for those
[5:06:43] Speaker 1: who missed it, two men a night. I love it.
[5:06:48] Speaker 1: I love that one, and I'm shocked. I am shocked.
[5:06:51] Speaker 1: I've never actually heard that one before. And last one
[5:06:54] Speaker 1: from Jahir says justin, I would like to know what
[5:06:58] Speaker 1: do you believe in good questions to hear. I'm an atheists.
[5:07:00] Speaker 1: I don't believe there are any spirits, any gods, any
[5:07:03] Speaker 1: entities that are immaterial. I think that the universe is timeless, eternal.
[5:07:09] Speaker 1: It's always existed in some way, shape or form. I
[5:07:11] Speaker 1: don't believe that any afterlife. I think this life is
[5:07:15] Speaker 1: all that we have, and we owe it to ourselves
[5:07:17] Speaker 1: and others to make the most of this life. To
[5:07:19] Speaker 1: make my life the best life I can to make
[5:07:22] Speaker 1: Max's life the best life that Mac is going to have,
[5:07:24] Speaker 1: and to make your all's life the best life that
[5:07:26] Speaker 1: you guys are able to have. And that is my
[5:07:30] Speaker 1: humanist manifesto, because this is all that we have. We're
[5:07:33] Speaker 1: not going to get a second time around. We got
[5:07:36] Speaker 1: to make the first time the best time. So and
[5:07:39] Speaker 1: with Mac Mac, is anyone live right now that we
[5:07:41] Speaker 1: can go raid at one point thirty in the morning.
[5:07:44] Speaker 4: That's probably a couple of candidates. Let me say, gotta be,
[5:07:46] Speaker 4: gotta be you see, uh yeah, h hmm, couple. I
[5:07:54] Speaker 4: don't know what that. Let me let me vamp for
[5:07:57] Speaker 4: a little bit. I'm going to see what they're doing.
[5:07:59] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's.
[5:08:03] Speaker 4: Because they got a couple of people I really enjoy,
[5:08:05] Speaker 4: so I gotta see it like they're ramping up or down.
[5:08:08] Speaker 1: Mm mmmmm, Well, I know this time typically typically thinkers live.
[5:08:18] Speaker 1: Yeah she's not live now though, Yeah, that's odd. I
[5:08:20] Speaker 1: didn't see her live either.
[5:08:22] Speaker 4: When's it night's usually off?
[5:08:24] Speaker 1: Fair enough? Fair enough? All right, I'm looking at the
[5:08:27] Speaker 1: live uh screen right now, and let's see actually not
[5:08:34] Speaker 1: a ton but you know who is live? And I
[5:08:37] Speaker 1: don't think we've ever sent anybody over here just yet,
[5:08:41] Speaker 1: but we can go to Born Again Atheists. Have you
[5:08:46] Speaker 1: seen born Again?
[5:08:46] Speaker 4: I don't see her. Yeah.
[5:08:50] Speaker 1: Oh, she's got a great page. So this is a
[5:08:52] Speaker 1: friend of her channel, Born Again Atheist. Here's what the
[5:08:56] Speaker 1: profile looks like on TikTok. As far as I know,
[5:08:58] Speaker 1: she's not on YouTube yet, but Born Again Atheists is
[5:09:02] Speaker 1: Born Again Atheists underscore underscore to find the page. She's
[5:09:06] Speaker 1: live right now, got a couple hundred people watching. It
[5:09:09] Speaker 1: looks like, let's see how many people are watching. Well,
[5:09:15] Speaker 1: my screen doesn't tell me how many people are watching,
[5:09:17] Speaker 1: but she got a bunch of people watching. So let's
[5:09:19] Speaker 1: go h on eighty one hundred and eighty. Listen, guys,
[5:09:23] Speaker 1: we need to bump this thing well over two hundred
[5:09:25] Speaker 1: and fifty. There's no reason why we can't get this
[5:09:27] Speaker 1: thing up to two hundred and fifty. As soon as
[5:09:29] Speaker 1: we get to two hundred and fifty, I'm gonna end
[5:09:31] Speaker 1: my live stream. We're gonna go raid Born Again Atheists.
[5:09:34] Speaker 1: Support her great work. She does a great job. She
[5:09:39] Speaker 1: has a really unique setup. I think she does an
[5:09:41] Speaker 1: awesome job. So let's go praise dog. Let's go raid
[5:09:45] Speaker 1: her live stream and get this thing well over two
[5:09:48] Speaker 1: hundred and fifty. We should be getting pretty darn clothes.
[5:09:50] Speaker 1: I see people now filtering in. Oh she's talking about
[5:09:53] Speaker 1: God's wrath from a pullbox. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna
[5:09:56] Speaker 1: love this. I'm gonna love it. Two hundred and five people,
[5:10:00] Speaker 1: two hundred and five people in the stream, now two
[5:10:02] Speaker 1: hundred and seven. Let's let's crank this thing. Two twelve.
[5:10:05] Speaker 1: Let's get this thing going. Let's all drop in to
[5:10:07] Speaker 1: Born Again Atheists two fifteen, and then here in just
[5:10:10] Speaker 1: a minute, see as we get this thing racked up
[5:10:12] Speaker 1: to two hundred and fifty. I'm gonna pop in over
[5:10:15] Speaker 1: and I'll join you guys over in Born Again Atheist
[5:10:18] Speaker 1: live stream, and we can go. We could go and
[5:10:22] Speaker 1: chirp in the comments and insult people and say fun
[5:10:26] Speaker 1: stuff and have all of our shenanigans over there going on.
[5:10:30] Speaker 1: We're at two twenty four. Can we pop two thirty?
[5:10:33] Speaker 1: Can we get past two thirty? I see two twenty
[5:10:36] Speaker 1: six to twenty eight. We're getting close, guys, We're twenty
[5:10:40] Speaker 1: two away two thirty two. We're almost there. We'll eighteen more,
[5:10:45] Speaker 1: nineteen more. Let's move it up. Let's move it up.
[5:10:48] Speaker 1: Let's get everybody up and over on TikTok, over to
[5:10:51] Speaker 1: the Born Again Atheist channel, and then I'll see you
[5:10:55] Speaker 1: guys in just a minute. I think I think we're moving.
[5:10:57] Speaker 1: We're at two thirty five. By the time two thirty
[5:11:00] Speaker 1: we only need eleven more friends. We just need eleven more.
[5:11:03] Speaker 1: Let's pop in over there. Let's get eleven more. Two
[5:11:05] Speaker 1: forty one, nine more, two forty six. We need just
[5:11:09] Speaker 1: a couple more friends, A couple more two forty eight.
[5:11:13] Speaker 1: We want one more, one more. Don't leave you hanging
[5:11:17] Speaker 1: two fifty one by Big Bada Boom Mac. Thanks so
[5:11:20] Speaker 1: much for coming to join me in friend. I really
[5:11:22] Speaker 1: appreciate you.
[5:11:23] Speaker 4: Pleasure is always Thanks for having me up.
[5:11:25] Speaker 1: Love you guys, have a great night. We'll see again Friday.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.