# WHY YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED TO BETTING APPS

An episode of [Apostle Lazarus Femi](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1824778006), 30 May 2026, 1 h 02 min.

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## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: If sixty or six five million adults gambling, that's a
[0:05] Speaker 1: very huge number.
[0:06] Speaker 2: I don't agree totally with that number. You feel that's understated,
[0:10] Speaker 2: over overstated, and overstated. I think Societ Okay, the evidence
[0:15] Speaker 2: driven advocate and founder of Gamble Award, who is fighting
[0:19] Speaker 2: one of Nigeria's most invisible public health crisis.
[0:22] Speaker 1: And there's another case that I know someone who was
[0:25] Speaker 1: looked on gambling. He faked his own kidnap, collected and
[0:30] Speaker 1: some came back home and did thanksgiving a charge interesting
[0:38] Speaker 1: and cried on the day of the Thanksgiving and everybody
[0:42] Speaker 1: cried that they could have killed him. It did that
[0:47] Speaker 1: because in de took class on debts and went back straighten.
[0:52] Speaker 2: As much as we've seen different research work, and I've
[0:55] Speaker 2: read a number of them quoting different numbers, we always
[0:59] Speaker 2: want to look at them question either because the research
[1:02] Speaker 2: is funded by the industries and you know that it
[1:04] Speaker 2: writes a negative narrative already on its own, there's also
[1:08] Speaker 2: the researchers by us that you want to look at.
[1:10] Speaker 2: So if if my interest is to say the industry
[1:13] Speaker 2: is entirely bad, what I am going to be looking
[1:15] Speaker 2: for will be stories of people who have experienced the
[1:19] Speaker 2: negative aspect of the industry. I'm saying that gambling is
[1:24] Speaker 2: a moral It's neither good or not bad. It's the
[1:27] Speaker 2: interaction with it that makes it either.
[1:30] Speaker 1: So you believe that they can be more.
[1:32] Speaker 2: I believe that people can fall within low risk. If
[1:35] Speaker 2: you keep players on the low risk, the negative narrative
[1:38] Speaker 2: would have been reduced. But because you are prioritizing making
[1:42] Speaker 2: profits of the misery of your customers, you want to
[1:45] Speaker 2: make that profit.
[1:46] Speaker 1: Because the regulator allows you to. The government gambling, they
[1:51] Speaker 1: of course they do. So it means the government also
[1:53] Speaker 1: benefits from gamblin of course.
[1:55] Speaker 2: Of course they do. If government was not benefiting at all,
[1:58] Speaker 2: gambling will be gone in a week or less.
[2:02] Speaker 1: Can we write said that the government has benefit from
[2:04] Speaker 1: the mystery of the people. Hey guys, if you're watching
[2:18] Speaker 1: this now, that means you have here for intelligent conversations,
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[3:04] Speaker 1: I look forward to having you again and again on
[3:07] Speaker 1: this show. Thank you so much. Now, this is a
[3:17] Speaker 1: very sobering statistics and you are you are you're a
[3:21] Speaker 1: data person and considering what you do. And now it
[3:26] Speaker 1: is stated here let me use the word allegedly that
[3:31] Speaker 1: over one in three adults that's about territory to forty
[3:37] Speaker 1: of adults in Nigeria engaging gambling and some reports suggests
[3:43] Speaker 1: that tens of millions gamble regularly. Would estimate of sixty
[3:49] Speaker 1: five million people betting daily. How serious as the show
[3:53] Speaker 1: of gambling in.
[3:55] Speaker 2: Nigeria camping activities? And I have the first thank you
[4:00] Speaker 2: for that very important question. You see, over the past
[4:07] Speaker 2: five six, seven years, we've seen a sharp rise in
[4:10] Speaker 2: terms of gambling activities in the country and then across Africa.
[4:17] Speaker 2: I see the data also from the National News Agency
[4:21] Speaker 2: of Nigeria saying that at the very least sixty to
[4:24] Speaker 2: sixty five million Nigerians gambling. We also see the data
[4:29] Speaker 2: that says that many of them are gambling daily. Yes,
[4:35] Speaker 2: in terms of numbers, it's difficult to quantify from the
[4:39] Speaker 2: outside because those with the data are actually the gaming operators,
[4:45] Speaker 2: so they are the ones who are able to say, oh,
[4:47] Speaker 2: this is how many the number of gamblers are in
[4:51] Speaker 2: the country. But that's not to say that we cannot
[4:55] Speaker 2: when we conduct service now come up with and estimate
[5:00] Speaker 2: say that people truly are gambling. So if you easily
[5:03] Speaker 2: conduct a poll on the streets, you would realize actually
[5:08] Speaker 2: that it is true that a lot of people you
[5:11] Speaker 2: know are gambling. And I'll speak to numbers. Last year,
[5:17] Speaker 2: we wanted to test the total consumption model. Yes, what's
[5:21] Speaker 2: the model. We wanted to find out if the frequency
[5:24] Speaker 2: of gambling had a direct correlation with the HAM Okay, yeah,
[5:31] Speaker 2: So we wanted to know if the fact that people
[5:33] Speaker 2: were betting daily and intensely, whether it was going to
[5:38] Speaker 2: cause harm to the.
[5:41] Speaker 1: HAM.
[5:42] Speaker 2: So we decided to go around and sovey two seventy
[5:47] Speaker 2: active gamblers. Okay, so we divided into two those who
[5:52] Speaker 2: were non frequent gamblers and the frequent gamblers, and what
[5:56] Speaker 2: we found out was that for the frequent gamblers there
[5:59] Speaker 2: were four times more likely to experience hard that those
[6:02] Speaker 2: who are not frequent four times more likely, four times
[6:06] Speaker 2: more likely. So the problem always is the frequency of
[6:12] Speaker 2: the game. That is not to say, because when we
[6:14] Speaker 2: say four times more likely, it means that there is
[6:16] Speaker 2: a number for those who are not frequent gamblers as well.
[6:20] Speaker 2: So ham also exists with those who are not frequent gamblers.
[6:25] Speaker 2: The only difference is that they have low risk, low
[6:29] Speaker 2: level of exposure to risk compared to those who days.
[6:32] Speaker 1: What do you guys do in your organization is to
[6:38] Speaker 1: mitigate the risk of gambling by working with organizations gambling
[6:43] Speaker 1: organizations to put policies in place that can stop people
[6:49] Speaker 1: from doing this idea addictively or in a way that
[6:52] Speaker 1: will cost them a mic correct to.
[6:55] Speaker 2: A very large degree. Yes, So we work across prevention, research,
[7:00] Speaker 2: meant training, advisory generally within the industry. So at the
[7:05] Speaker 2: end of the day, our goal is player protection. So
[7:07] Speaker 2: we work with gaming regulators gaming operators, healthcare providers, just
[7:12] Speaker 2: about any stakeholders. In fact, education ministries across different jurisdictions,
[7:17] Speaker 2: because we want to also make sure that the care
[7:19] Speaker 2: givers are able to protect you know, people under them.
[7:21] Speaker 1: An a great gambling organization makes money from the frequency
[7:24] Speaker 1: of the gambling. Correct.
[7:27] Speaker 2: The only difference now is for how long. So if
[7:31] Speaker 2: you have an organization who makes money from the frequency
[7:36] Speaker 2: and then people get hooked on their platform, they make
[7:39] Speaker 2: money for the first two three years, and then sustainability
[7:42] Speaker 2: wise they will not because what you would effectively do
[7:47] Speaker 2: is to lose a player perpetually. For instance, if a
[7:51] Speaker 2: player dies by suicide, that's the player that I have
[7:54] Speaker 2: lost perpetually.
[7:55] Speaker 1: Because I mean, since this is a podcast conversation, we
[7:58] Speaker 1: can go back for the bag. Yeah, so every player
[8:01] Speaker 1: that you lose one or the other, you have about
[8:04] Speaker 1: fifty Please.
[8:06] Speaker 3: Young demography who are trying to make money, and then
[8:11] Speaker 3: even those who are seeing gambling as the way to
[8:15] Speaker 3: end their deliberate So so every one person that what
[8:17] Speaker 3: I'm trying to say is that the entry part into
[8:20] Speaker 3: gambling is wider than they exit.
[8:24] Speaker 2: So in a manner of speaking, I would agree with
[8:26] Speaker 2: you right that the entry point is wider as well,
[8:29] Speaker 2: and that's because more people are now turning to gambling
[8:33] Speaker 2: as a way of making income. Because if the motivation
[8:36] Speaker 2: was correct, and you get people hooked on your platform,
[8:40] Speaker 2: it means that your exist point will ordinarily be wider
[8:43] Speaker 2: than your entry point. But because the motivation is different,
[8:47] Speaker 2: people are entering because of money, and the lower of
[8:49] Speaker 2: people want to make money.
[8:51] Speaker 1: You've spoken them, You've worked with several gamblers. What does
[8:53] Speaker 1: the mind of a gambler look like, So it depends
[8:58] Speaker 1: on the demography that were discus with. The average gambler
[9:04] Speaker 1: thinks that what he's doing is to end an income.
[9:10] Speaker 2: What what he's doing is normal is he believes that, look,
[9:16] Speaker 2: the economic situation does not favor so we've got to
[9:19] Speaker 2: do something. And then he thinks that if he has
[9:24] Speaker 2: committed an amount of money, even if he loses it,
[9:27] Speaker 2: he needs to win it back. So he begins to
[9:29] Speaker 2: chase his losses. So that and that's where you will
[9:31] Speaker 2: find the most players.
[9:34] Speaker 1: So you find most players because they are chasing losses
[9:36] Speaker 1: correct more like it's avengeful mission. If they've taken from
[9:39] Speaker 1: Meltic back.
[9:41] Speaker 2: Some of them have the belief that they are contributing
[9:46] Speaker 2: two towards a wallet that would eventually yield to them
[9:51] Speaker 2: if I have lost today lost tomorrow. So that there
[9:54] Speaker 2: is the gambler's fallacy, the belief that if I had
[9:57] Speaker 2: had a winning streak, I'm about to lose, and if
[10:01] Speaker 2: I had had a losing streak, I'm about to win.
[10:04] Speaker 2: That's a fallacy, but we see that. So the average
[10:07] Speaker 2: gambler is thinking, oh, come on, the past six days,
[10:10] Speaker 2: I have been losing. It means that if I play
[10:12] Speaker 2: the seventh or the eighth one winning most ca and
[10:14] Speaker 2: it just keeps great, it continues to go on exactly
[10:17] Speaker 2: and just keep losing correctly. So this means that gambling
[10:22] Speaker 2: activities is more prevalent and portant about absolutely absolutely does
[10:27] Speaker 2: gambling happen in hybrow environments as well. Of course, In fact,
[10:32] Speaker 2: there are VIP customers on the platform will spend a
[10:36] Speaker 2: whooping some of my amounts. You know. On this platform, however,
[10:40] Speaker 2: way you will find the highest number of people. And
[10:42] Speaker 2: of course it goes without saying. If you have to
[10:45] Speaker 2: sample a nation as well, you will find more poor
[10:47] Speaker 2: people than the rich. Yep, So it also makes sense
[10:51] Speaker 2: that you will find more poor people gambling than you'll
[10:53] Speaker 2: find the riach.
[10:57] Speaker 1: Gambling and for exut.
[11:00] Speaker 2: Classify them under the same. So for X spread betting,
[11:08] Speaker 2: you have introduced betting to it. I think it goes
[11:11] Speaker 2: back to the definition of gambling.
[11:13] Speaker 1: How will you define it?
[11:16] Speaker 2: Placing something of value? So it can be money, it
[11:20] Speaker 2: can be property, it can be anything on an event
[11:25] Speaker 2: which outcome you are not sure of. There's no guarantee
[11:29] Speaker 2: with an expectation of your return. So if in four
[11:33] Speaker 2: X you're placing something of value on an event which
[11:38] Speaker 2: outcome you don't know, but you have an expectation, then
[11:41] Speaker 2: you're gambling.
[11:43] Speaker 1: So if someone says to you that I'm trying to
[11:46] Speaker 1: quit gambling and I'm trying to going to.
[11:48] Speaker 2: For X, what would you advise be They're not quitting gambling.
[11:53] Speaker 2: What you're doing, effectively is to say, look, I think
[11:56] Speaker 2: that this particular product is no longer for me. Let
[11:58] Speaker 2: me move to another one. So you think that the
[12:00] Speaker 2: risk in one is lower than the other, but that
[12:03] Speaker 2: you're moving away from gambling entirely. Not really, So my
[12:06] Speaker 2: advice would always be you see, what we have realized
[12:10] Speaker 2: in our work is that if you advise a player
[12:13] Speaker 2: not to gamble anymore, you're chasing away entirely. It won't
[12:17] Speaker 2: come to you exactly because that's not that's not the
[12:19] Speaker 2: advice is looking for. Some persons don't want to stop gambling.
[12:22] Speaker 1: What advice are they looking for?
[12:25] Speaker 2: They want to learn how they can deal risk their plane.
[12:30] Speaker 1: So you're saying that because we understand every case of
[12:32] Speaker 1: what dition is a mentally uness are you saying that
[12:35] Speaker 1: gambling is a lifelong mental compromise?
[12:39] Speaker 2: I believe so. I believe so. Now the thing with
[12:43] Speaker 2: problem gambling because not everybody who is exhibiting problem gambling
[12:47] Speaker 2: is addicted. Because what we always see is people saying
[12:53] Speaker 2: or because this person is chasing losses, it must be addicted.
[12:58] Speaker 2: So if it's not addicted and advising him like someone
[13:01] Speaker 2: who is addicted, he won't say away because he thinks
[13:03] Speaker 2: you're not meeting his needs. And how do you know?
[13:06] Speaker 2: You know, addiction is the extreme level where a person
[13:08] Speaker 2: has lost control. Yeah, but then a person who is
[13:12] Speaker 2: chasing losses is also a problematic gambler. So there are
[13:17] Speaker 2: different vulnerable vulnerability groups. If persin falls under one, and
[13:24] Speaker 2: then it moves like that until it gets to the
[13:26] Speaker 2: level of addiction. So I believe that it's a lifelong thing.
[13:31] Speaker 2: So people move from one level before they get to the.
[13:34] Speaker 1: Stories with you. I know of a gambler. Oh, at
[13:41] Speaker 1: some point and this is not what you call it,
[13:44] Speaker 1: like you said, the problematic gambler. Right, So at some
[13:47] Speaker 1: point it taught to himself that the best job for
[13:52] Speaker 1: him to do is to collect contribution from people. Yeah,
[13:56] Speaker 1: so you let's take a contribution of people, and everybody
[14:00] Speaker 1: they were contributing you some of money, right with him
[14:05] Speaker 1: and all that, and he just you know, and you
[14:08] Speaker 1: know the way that thing works. Something just keeps telling
[14:10] Speaker 1: you that you can multiply this and all that. So
[14:15] Speaker 1: by the time this one wants to take the contribution
[14:17] Speaker 1: that wants to take a combition, he couldn't be talk with.
[14:20] Speaker 2: All of them.
[14:21] Speaker 1: And so he became a very complicated problem. And eventually
[14:27] Speaker 1: he ended it all right. And there's another case that
[14:30] Speaker 1: I know someone who was hooked on gambling and he
[14:40] Speaker 1: faked his own kidnap. Yeah, collected and some came back
[14:49] Speaker 1: home and did Thanksgiving in church and cried on the
[14:57] Speaker 1: day of the Thanksgiving and everybody cried that they could
[15:03] Speaker 1: have killed him. Well, they actually gambled it, did that
[15:10] Speaker 1: because it to clear some debts and went back straighten right.
[15:15] Speaker 1: Would you describe this case as problematically absolutely.
[15:19] Speaker 2: Both cases. Both cases. Okay, there are problem gamlass. They
[15:24] Speaker 2: but until they are clinically examined, you would not be
[15:27] Speaker 2: able to say whether they're addicted or not. And this
[15:31] Speaker 2: is where we always want to be careful in coloration,
[15:36] Speaker 2: because when you want to say someone is addicted, you
[15:38] Speaker 2: want the clinical psychologist to have examined the person and
[15:40] Speaker 2: sertified the pression, and from the outside you see a problem.
[15:43] Speaker 2: And that's why we always call problem gamblers. Once you're
[15:46] Speaker 2: satisfied to be an addict, that's first to address the
[15:50] Speaker 2: first scenario. You said something continue to tell him that
[15:58] Speaker 2: he could double the money.
[16:00] Speaker 1: That's that's the mind of an average gambler.
[16:02] Speaker 2: That's something telling him his gambling misconception. It's part of
[16:07] Speaker 2: the misconception, is one of the gambler's fallacy and other
[16:09] Speaker 2: misconceptions that we're talking about the fact that you think
[16:13] Speaker 2: that you can double your money, you think that you
[16:18] Speaker 2: have a control over the outcome of a game. Now,
[16:23] Speaker 2: rather than addressed the individual, because for us, we always
[16:26] Speaker 2: want to check what are the failures that led this
[16:29] Speaker 2: person into this, What could have been done better to
[16:32] Speaker 2: help these persons. And I'm going to join both scenarios together.
[16:36] Speaker 2: I think it's a failure. It's an RG feeling that's
[16:38] Speaker 2: responsible gaining failure on the part of the operato, of
[16:42] Speaker 2: the operato correct the gambling company. And why am I
[16:46] Speaker 2: saying this? If a person puts an amount on your
[16:49] Speaker 2: platform and it comes back to place another bit, you
[16:52] Speaker 2: know when you analyzi is profile that this person actually
[16:57] Speaker 2: is chasing losses. At that point you were supposed to
[17:00] Speaker 2: stop him, because every player has a profile with the operatur.
[17:06] Speaker 2: When they take your KYC, they're not just looking at
[17:10] Speaker 2: it from the anti money laundring lens, and that's also
[17:13] Speaker 2: a connection to problem gambling anyway, but then they're also
[17:17] Speaker 2: looking at your risk profile. It's students, for instance, who
[17:21] Speaker 2: ordinarily would be playing with one thousand, five hundred two thousand,
[17:23] Speaker 2: five hundred, who immediately goes to play two fifty thousand.
[17:27] Speaker 2: You want to ask questions, do you have students that?
[17:30] Speaker 2: Of course absolutely, I mean one died by suicide painfully,
[17:36] Speaker 2: I think it was lit last year. Yes see, we
[17:38] Speaker 2: have to put it out to a publication. Unfortunately, we
[17:40] Speaker 2: realize that government institution and I say this advisedly always
[17:46] Speaker 2: have a way of trying to protect the reputation that
[17:49] Speaker 2: they never had. So when you try to trace what
[17:53] Speaker 2: led this personto this, they're covering the story. Because for us,
[18:00] Speaker 2: when we estories like this, we are so pinched that
[18:02] Speaker 2: we want to find out exactly how the dispersing gets yes,
[18:06] Speaker 2: so that nobody would fall into that ditch again, Yeah,
[18:10] Speaker 2: could it be from the operator? Could they have stopped it?
[18:12] Speaker 2: If we have this data, we're able to present it
[18:14] Speaker 2: to the industry to say, look, this is one of
[18:16] Speaker 2: your feelings.
[18:18] Speaker 1: An average celebrity, an average skits maker, advertises gambling companience,
[18:26] Speaker 1: and we all know that gambling organizations would not make money.
[18:32] Speaker 1: People are not betting daily. Right to reduce the risk
[18:37] Speaker 1: associated with betting is to reduce the number of customers.
[18:44] Speaker 1: You are saying that they should have systems as able
[18:49] Speaker 1: to assess if I can call them, I risk individuals
[18:56] Speaker 1: in their database by looking at the frequent their gambling.
[19:02] Speaker 1: Why would they want to do that since that's how
[19:05] Speaker 1: they make loads of their money.
[19:08] Speaker 2: Interestingly, so it looks like every time I talk about
[19:13] Speaker 2: the industry, I'm always facing the regulator. You are only
[19:18] Speaker 2: able to make that amount of money from people's misery
[19:22] Speaker 2: because the environment that regulates you allows you. So the
[19:30] Speaker 2: data we're talking about, it's not something that they're introducing,
[19:33] Speaker 2: they already have it. Gaming operators are investing increasingly in
[19:40] Speaker 2: beaver analytive tools so that they would know what kind
[19:43] Speaker 2: of games are their customers playing, how much are they spending,
[19:47] Speaker 2: how much time at they spending, so that they can
[19:49] Speaker 2: invest some more in it and attract them if it's
[19:52] Speaker 2: attractive to them. I mean, if they're playing more minus
[19:55] Speaker 2: is attractive to them, that's why they're playing these tools interestingly.
[19:58] Speaker 2: Are also they have the capability of being used to
[20:02] Speaker 2: know when a person is chasing losses.
[20:05] Speaker 1: Do you feel the organizations now, yes, they do, and
[20:09] Speaker 1: there is one thing to have a system that can
[20:11] Speaker 1: provide that data. It's under tem to have the policy
[20:15] Speaker 1: that is actually monitoring the data for the purpose of
[20:19] Speaker 1: helping the clients.
[20:21] Speaker 2: Now I think that it would be speaking or taking
[20:27] Speaker 2: brief on behalf of the operator to assume that they
[20:30] Speaker 2: don't know. As a matter of fact, ignorance will never
[20:34] Speaker 2: be an excuse. You have KPIs for different departments. Yes,
[20:38] Speaker 2: how do you have an organization that is running and
[20:41] Speaker 2: you have no department for safer gambling.
[20:44] Speaker 1: Are you directly saying the government should win.
[20:47] Speaker 2: The government should prioritize what is needful.
[20:51] Speaker 1: If forty sixty or sixty five million adults are looked
[20:57] Speaker 1: on gambling, that's a very huge number. That's a very
[21:05] Speaker 1: huge number. The platform said, that's about nineteen percent society
[21:12] Speaker 1: who don't gambling.
[21:15] Speaker 2: I mean, I don't agree totally with that number, because
[21:19] Speaker 2: you feel that understated, over overstated. I think that is overstated.
[21:25] Speaker 2: I think so. I think so. And why I think so?
[21:28] Speaker 2: Is this except there is a metric to make.
[21:31] Speaker 1: Sure gambling is now too. I mean it's now too.
[21:35] Speaker 1: She can't download the app, I don't know call their.
[21:38] Speaker 2: Names, So gambling is too.
[21:40] Speaker 1: They found a way to make it fanciful.
[21:42] Speaker 2: I agree with you.
[21:43] Speaker 1: They found a way to make it less relegious.
[21:45] Speaker 2: I agree with you. Why I'm saying this is again,
[21:48] Speaker 2: I want to talk to reliable data. The vital puts
[21:53] Speaker 2: the World estimate of disorder gambling disorder at it.
[22:03] Speaker 1: World.
[22:03] Speaker 2: Yes, so in Botswana. And they are able to quote
[22:09] Speaker 2: Bluswana because the government itself commissioned institutions to actually lead
[22:15] Speaker 2: their research in this regard and they found something similar
[22:19] Speaker 2: with who I think that is sensational to say that
[22:27] Speaker 2: gambling disorder in Nigeria is around forty five percent.
[22:32] Speaker 1: Percent they're talking about about nineteen percent.
[22:38] Speaker 2: Again, do you do we.
[22:40] Speaker 1: Have any data, verifiable data as touching because one of
[22:49] Speaker 1: the things I know about us is that we are
[22:51] Speaker 1: bad with numbers correct and that that in itself is
[22:55] Speaker 1: real need to money problems. So do we have any
[22:58] Speaker 1: established record data as touching number of people in Nigeria?
[23:03] Speaker 1: First and promost that I looked on this.
[23:06] Speaker 2: I think that as much as we're seeing different research work,
[23:09] Speaker 2: and I've read a number of them quoting different numbers,
[23:13] Speaker 2: we always want to look at them with questions. Either
[23:17] Speaker 2: because the research is funded by the industries and you
[23:21] Speaker 2: know that it writes a negative narrative already on its own,
[23:24] Speaker 2: there's also the researchers by us that you want to
[23:27] Speaker 2: look at. So if my interest is to say the
[23:30] Speaker 2: industry is entirely bad, what I am going to be
[23:33] Speaker 2: looking for will be stories of people who have experienced
[23:36] Speaker 2: the negative aspect of the industry. Are I'm saying that
[23:42] Speaker 2: gambling is a moral It's neither good nor bad. It's
[23:46] Speaker 2: the interaction with it that makes it either the two.
[23:50] Speaker 2: So you believe that there can be a moderate gambler.
[23:53] Speaker 2: I believe that people can fall within low risk than
[23:58] Speaker 2: say this is so there's low risk, there's moderate risk level,
[24:03] Speaker 2: there is high, that's very high.
[24:06] Speaker 1: But the idea of it is that you start from
[24:08] Speaker 1: the lower risk correct. Then eventually the chance of you
[24:12] Speaker 1: geting to the point where the risk is high is
[24:15] Speaker 1: higher as long as you started correct.
[24:16] Speaker 2: So again it goes back to the platform the gaming operators.
[24:21] Speaker 2: If you keep players on the low risk, the negative
[24:23] Speaker 2: narrative would have been reduced. But because you are prioritizing
[24:28] Speaker 2: making profits of the misery of your customers, they will.
[24:32] Speaker 1: Want to make profit because that's why they're there.
[24:34] Speaker 2: Again, you you want to make that profit because the
[24:38] Speaker 2: regulator allows you to.
[24:39] Speaker 1: Who is the regulator the government? Do you feel golate
[24:43] Speaker 1: gambling or you feel they need to start regulating gambling?
[24:48] Speaker 2: I think that it will be unfair to say to
[24:51] Speaker 2: say that the government is currently not regulating. What we
[24:55] Speaker 2: are seeing is inadequate regulation. When you say regulation, okay,
[25:02] Speaker 2: so safer gambling is just one of them. There is
[25:07] Speaker 2: anti money laundring. Before now, gambling the gambling industries used
[25:13] Speaker 2: to be a very lucreative platform, platform for money laundress.
[25:19] Speaker 2: He took the intervention of the regulators to take that out.
[25:23] Speaker 2: It was when declared that alongside all that issues real
[25:26] Speaker 2: estate and all of that before we could get out
[25:28] Speaker 2: of the gray least you know of the FF.
[25:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, when I checked the last data I checked, gambling
[25:35] Speaker 1: is not in the first You have clubs.
[25:38] Speaker 2: For moneylaun drain. You may not be in the first three,
[25:41] Speaker 2: but I mean so.
[25:43] Speaker 1: You have you have clubs, mm hmm, you have real estate, right,
[25:49] Speaker 1: I want to talk to one of them is the religious.
[25:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you have that right. So if you if
[25:55] Speaker 2: you look at the anti moneylaun drain acts, he has
[25:59] Speaker 2: this specific provision for gaming and casino operators.
[26:04] Speaker 1: That's how serious it is. Gambling organis repay tax, of
[26:10] Speaker 1: course they do. So it means the government also benefits
[26:12] Speaker 1: from gambling.
[26:13] Speaker 2: Of course, of course they do. If governments was not
[26:16] Speaker 2: benefiting at all, gambling will be gone in a week
[26:20] Speaker 2: or less.
[26:21] Speaker 1: So why would the governments about they're getting from? So
[26:24] Speaker 1: can we rightly say that the government is benefiting from
[26:27] Speaker 1: the mystery of.
[26:27] Speaker 2: The people, I wouldn't say that or subconsciously. Well, so
[26:36] Speaker 2: if you ask a different person who has experienced ham
[26:40] Speaker 2: The person would directly tell you yes they are. But
[26:43] Speaker 2: I want to look at it with a balanced view. Yes,
[26:49] Speaker 2: there are people, a lot of people, by the way,
[26:52] Speaker 2: who have experienced harm from gambling. There are also thousands,
[26:57] Speaker 2: maybe tens or hundreds of thousands, so you know, are
[27:00] Speaker 2: contributing directly to the economy of the country, either by
[27:04] Speaker 2: job creation and whatter view. Then there's tax remainstancies, there's
[27:08] Speaker 2: licensing fees and.
[27:09] Speaker 1: What you see, gamble some great jobs. Correct, do they
[27:13] Speaker 1: also take jobs?
[27:14] Speaker 2: They do? They do? I mean, look, there's no one
[27:20] Speaker 2: so there's no window dressing for the industry. If you
[27:26] Speaker 2: do bad, people should call it out.
[27:29] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[27:30] Speaker 2: My point is having a balanced view to it. There
[27:34] Speaker 2: are persons, and I'm aware of some of them who
[27:37] Speaker 2: have jobs today because of this industry. Right, and then
[27:43] Speaker 2: we've also had two clients who lost their jobs because
[27:50] Speaker 2: of gambling.
[27:50] Speaker 1: Of course, you can lose many program right. Nothing can
[27:54] Speaker 1: pressing to strip you naked in life like correct can
[27:57] Speaker 1: take your family from you can take friends from. Let me,
[28:00] Speaker 1: there's a streets code. I don't get I on your
[28:04] Speaker 1: own supply Have you heard that before? Yes? So have
[28:08] Speaker 1: you found case of those who are working in gambling
[28:10] Speaker 1: organizations also gamblers.
[28:12] Speaker 2: Research in fact shows us that people who are working
[28:15] Speaker 2: in gambling houses are at higher risk than the average individual.
[28:19] Speaker 1: Outside because they feel they know the back.
[28:20] Speaker 2: End, not necessarily because you're exposed to it, and they
[28:27] Speaker 2: just think that is one of those things.
[28:29] Speaker 1: What are the words you get your sally, you put
[28:32] Speaker 1: it back? Can we also admit that an average worker
[28:35] Speaker 1: for gamble organization that is hooked on gambling is your
[28:37] Speaker 1: figure because it might eventually permanent your sala, your gambling.
[28:42] Speaker 2: I think that it's a fit, an HR failure for
[28:46] Speaker 2: you to have a staff, a member of staff in
[28:50] Speaker 2: your organization, a gambling organization who is hooked on gambling.
[28:54] Speaker 2: You know Virtual two definitely.
[28:58] Speaker 1: Can't government track that. It's like it's a speed bet.
[29:02] Speaker 2: Is government that licensed them? If you cannot track them
[29:05] Speaker 2: worthy to give them a license?
[29:07] Speaker 1: So government license virtual?
[29:09] Speaker 2: Of course, In fact, there are operators whose activities are
[29:14] Speaker 2: not on sports betting and on loto, it's on virtual
[29:17] Speaker 2: that's what that's what they're selling. And if you're not
[29:20] Speaker 2: an operator, directly say you are operating in nine Caerier,
[29:23] Speaker 2: you'll be a bit to b licensee say you're selling
[29:26] Speaker 2: your games to licensed operators within the country and they
[29:29] Speaker 2: get a license with that as well. So yes, the
[29:31] Speaker 2: license virtual gaming and what we have the allies with
[29:34] Speaker 2: virtual gaming, and which is the conversation we're having regulators
[29:36] Speaker 2: and operator. Most people who have been hooked in gambling,
[29:43] Speaker 2: it's because of this virtual game and why because of
[29:48] Speaker 2: the short duration. You know, so you're able to easily
[29:52] Speaker 2: adjust your mood. Yeah, you advise yourself or it's not
[29:56] Speaker 2: that deep. Let me go back. You know, with sports betting,
[29:58] Speaker 2: you have to wait for nineteen minutes for the game.
[29:59] Speaker 1: To be virtual. Two minutes some of them.
[30:03] Speaker 2: Exactly, you're done.
[30:06] Speaker 1: All your life savings go in too.
[30:08] Speaker 2: Of course it's cheaper and then it's fast paced. So
[30:12] Speaker 2: you're thinking, oh, come on. You know one part that
[30:15] Speaker 2: a lot of people don't talk about because as we
[30:18] Speaker 2: have sat see it. Now, we've talked about virtual we've
[30:21] Speaker 2: talked about sports betting. That's ie gaming, that's online gambling.
[30:26] Speaker 2: What happened to casinos?
[30:28] Speaker 1: Casino is dangerous.
[30:31] Speaker 2: Now again you know we're talking.
[30:32] Speaker 1: About but there's online casino.
[30:34] Speaker 2: Of course, there's online casino. Online casino is what leads
[30:36] Speaker 2: people to the Chua, you spin exactly. It's what leads
[30:40] Speaker 2: people to virtual so they almost always are altogether.
[30:44] Speaker 1: You know, there are bankers blast.
[30:47] Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't want to use identify as,
[30:49] Speaker 2: but I doubt that there is any occupation, including the military,
[30:54] Speaker 2: that we have not seen understand exactly.
[31:02] Speaker 1: Wow, So what you are trying to do now is
[31:08] Speaker 1: to say, all the guys, we've got to have regulations.
[31:14] Speaker 1: We can of afford to have a situation where the
[31:18] Speaker 1: people who claim to care about our clients losing their
[31:23] Speaker 1: lives their fortune to this. But again, this is what
[31:28] Speaker 1: I'm looking at every organization that has set out set
[31:33] Speaker 1: out to make profit. If someone wakes up to sell caskets, yeah,
[31:40] Speaker 1: it means you expect that even though we understand it
[31:43] Speaker 1: natural occurrence. I was joking with my wife with something.
[31:47] Speaker 1: She's a therapist, and I said that you she gets
[31:54] Speaker 1: loads of clients. She is always walking back to back,
[31:57] Speaker 1: And I said, if if you guys don't have clients,
[32:02] Speaker 1: do you also pray for clients? Because it means you
[32:05] Speaker 1: couldn't pray for the problems. You solve problems, right, I.
[32:08] Speaker 2: Mean, it's like asking doctors not to pray for patients.
[32:12] Speaker 1: They will come, so is this really possible? Will it
[32:16] Speaker 1: be possible because these organizations, I mean, it's like we
[32:20] Speaker 1: are trying to window dress betting organizations by believing that
[32:27] Speaker 1: they have any sense of ethics. Okay, do you think
[32:32] Speaker 1: there is the human side of these organizations that can
[32:35] Speaker 1: at least be ethical that if the people who stop coming,
[32:38] Speaker 1: you can because I mean, again, like I said, there
[32:41] Speaker 1: are different part two and I'm trying to look at
[32:43] Speaker 1: it objectively that if those organization on the online sport
[32:47] Speaker 1: betting organization regulates are people bet looking at their data
[32:51] Speaker 1: the frequency varirisk factors and all that, and they say people,
[32:55] Speaker 1: since it's a newer pathway issue addictionally, why as the
[33:01] Speaker 1: brain the body gets satisfaction when you're able to get that,
[33:08] Speaker 1: so the people might move from that that can be monitored.
[33:12] Speaker 1: So these likes of you can't monitor virtual because you
[33:16] Speaker 1: go to a betting shop, you pay them. Anybody can
[33:20] Speaker 1: pay and beton whatever I want to bet on the
[33:22] Speaker 1: pressure that they are going to press in two minutes,
[33:25] Speaker 1: your fortunate is decided determined, So we'll there not push
[33:28] Speaker 1: them from man to fire.
[33:32] Speaker 2: I get your point about switching from one product to
[33:34] Speaker 2: the other, but then let me address the issue of
[33:38] Speaker 2: whether gaming operators have any ethic in their operation today.
[33:45] Speaker 2: Rather than saying yes or no, I'll just lay background
[33:48] Speaker 2: to where we're coming from, where we are now, and
[33:50] Speaker 2: then maybe give it us a point around whether it
[33:55] Speaker 2: is fair to see whether they have ethics or not.
[33:59] Speaker 2: The gambling industry in Nigeria is so old. However, sports
[34:04] Speaker 2: petting came out I think in twenty ten, twenty twelve,
[34:09] Speaker 2: twenty eleven. They're about some persons saw the opportunity in
[34:13] Speaker 2: the industry, the market size, and then they started organizations.
[34:18] Speaker 2: They were making it killing. No body was talking about
[34:22] Speaker 2: player protection. Yeah, but then about five and a half
[34:26] Speaker 2: years ago the conversation around responsible gaming started. Responsible giving
[34:31] Speaker 2: correct Okay to say, look, we know that there is
[34:35] Speaker 2: nothing we want to say, gambling will continue, but how
[34:38] Speaker 2: about you introduce ethics into this. Yeah, So we started
[34:43] Speaker 2: having that conversation. Of course, like any other new issue,
[34:46] Speaker 2: there were pushbacks and then we started engaging. Now because
[34:52] Speaker 2: of the work that we do, we have gaming companies
[34:57] Speaker 2: that have responsible gaming officers that never have points before
[35:01] Speaker 2: that is your responsibility is to find out who has
[35:06] Speaker 2: used self exclusion on your platform, who has played beyond
[35:11] Speaker 2: the means on your platform based on your analysis, and
[35:14] Speaker 2: then send the report. Okay, So knowing where we're coming
[35:19] Speaker 2: from and knowing where we are now, it will be
[35:23] Speaker 2: incomplete to say that we have not made improvements.
[35:28] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[35:29] Speaker 2: I think that the problem generally is this if the
[35:33] Speaker 2: regulators don't make it a level playing ground. That is,
[35:38] Speaker 2: if one operator is doing it and the other operator
[35:42] Speaker 2: is not doing it, there should be punishment for the
[35:44] Speaker 2: operator too who is not doing it. But then if
[35:47] Speaker 2: operator says, look, I don't want to take bets from
[35:51] Speaker 2: people whose lives are taking an ugly tone anymore. Operator
[35:57] Speaker 2: B is not doing that, it continues to take bets.
[35:59] Speaker 2: So looking at this competitive advantage, so you're making problem
[36:05] Speaker 2: gambling look creative for operator B while operator A is languishing. True,
[36:11] Speaker 2: So it's always a problem of the imbalance, which is
[36:14] Speaker 2: why I'm saying ignorance is not always a point for them.
[36:19] Speaker 2: Many of these operators are aware, in fact, by the
[36:21] Speaker 2: time they show you their books about how many people
[36:23] Speaker 2: have requested for self exclusion, because I mean, that's still
[36:27] Speaker 2: some of the improvements that were talking about some years
[36:29] Speaker 2: school it never existed, but now you're if a person
[36:33] Speaker 2: is playing on the platform and it thinks, look, I
[36:35] Speaker 2: think I have lost more than I have won. I
[36:37] Speaker 2: don't want to do it again. You can block yourself.
[36:41] Speaker 2: The government even started that's legal state now. Because when
[36:44] Speaker 2: we say governments, we should be careful. There are states
[36:46] Speaker 2: in Nigeria were doing absolutely nothing and people are entering
[36:50] Speaker 2: into misery. But in Lego State they started safely to say, look,
[36:55] Speaker 2: we know that if you go to Operator A and
[36:57] Speaker 2: your self you can go to Operator BRU. If you
[37:02] Speaker 2: think that you have a problem to the point that
[37:04] Speaker 2: you have come to our platform, then we would exclude
[37:08] Speaker 2: you from all the platforms that exists within our jurisdiction. Yeah,
[37:14] Speaker 2: that is a development from them. So the question about
[37:17] Speaker 2: whether the operators or the industry is ethical, I think
[37:22] Speaker 2: it's a growing issue.
[37:24] Speaker 1: I mean I think often times as we've seen it, no,
[37:28] Speaker 1: none of such organizations would like to be ethical by themselves.
[37:32] Speaker 1: I think the ethics will come in when regulators will
[37:36] Speaker 1: correct correct.
[37:38] Speaker 2: If you ask and ave read money launder. He doesn't
[37:41] Speaker 2: want you to stop him. He's making a lot of money.
[37:44] Speaker 2: But by the time the regulators decided that they have
[37:47] Speaker 2: had enough, Yeah, they put their food on the ground
[37:51] Speaker 2: and then now if you want to do money London Nigeria,
[37:53] Speaker 2: you have to think twice.
[37:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[37:55] Speaker 2: So if your percautions are that deep, if you know
[37:58] Speaker 2: you're going to lose your license and lose your job,
[38:00] Speaker 2: if people so, I mean, I visited a gambling company
[38:04] Speaker 2: outside the country some weeks ago and they spend on
[38:09] Speaker 2: the safer gambling department one point five million pounds. Wow,
[38:14] Speaker 2: just on that department. We're not talking about treatments alone.
[38:17] Speaker 2: Now we're talking about recruitment or staff, recruitment of psychologists.
[38:21] Speaker 2: And what a view because for them, I.
[38:24] Speaker 1: Mean, these things can even be automated because correct, there
[38:29] Speaker 1: could be boughts that could observe the frequency. Correct, and
[38:35] Speaker 1: everywhere there is correct, someone is doing these rates. That's right.
[38:38] Speaker 1: And so the boats.
[38:39] Speaker 2: Can interestingly in number of them have it on their platform,
[38:42] Speaker 2: they just never use them.
[38:45] Speaker 1: Wow.
[38:45] Speaker 2: Because you're thinking about you know, you could talk to
[38:49] Speaker 2: an operato and it says, well what you have said
[38:53] Speaker 2: makes sense, but why should I do it? Nobody is
[38:57] Speaker 2: asking me to do it from the regulator side, that's
[39:00] Speaker 2: the question.
[39:02] Speaker 1: So one of the looking at what you do right
[39:06] Speaker 1: in practical times, how can a gambling addicts be.
[39:10] Speaker 2: Helped so Interestingly, like every other kind of addiction, help
[39:16] Speaker 2: is available. Go talk to somebody, see a therapists. We
[39:24] Speaker 2: know we have a very terrible culture of thinking that
[39:27] Speaker 2: we are man enough, we're strong. We think that therapy
[39:31] Speaker 2: is for weak people, not always. A person who is
[39:36] Speaker 2: hooked on gambling can definitely not help himself. In fact,
[39:39] Speaker 2: if you could help himself, he would have stopped. Most
[39:42] Speaker 2: times we think erroneously that we can stop. Talk to somebody.
[39:45] Speaker 2: Talk to the therapist, will walk through to the process.
[39:48] Speaker 2: It's for some persons is psychotherapy they just need they
[39:52] Speaker 2: just need to be educated. For some others, it's something deeper. Interestingly,
[39:58] Speaker 2: people don't always just fall into a diction because of
[40:00] Speaker 2: money alone. Money is a secretical fact, though it is.
[40:05] Speaker 2: But then there are those who are pushed into gambling
[40:08] Speaker 2: harm because of the situations around them. Finance is one.
[40:13] Speaker 2: Think about a person who has loved his lord, lost
[40:15] Speaker 2: loved one, and then he sits at home brooding, and
[40:21] Speaker 2: then a friend visits him and says, look, you're wasting
[40:23] Speaker 2: your life away just thinking. Let's visit a casino and
[40:27] Speaker 2: sit and wild away time. And then because of the trio,
[40:31] Speaker 2: it forgets this problem. It's like drinking to forget your problem.
[40:36] Speaker 2: So if its there, whether he lose this or he
[40:38] Speaker 2: wins is not his concern anymore so for him, economic
[40:41] Speaker 2: circum circumstance is not the reason is gambling. For him
[40:45] Speaker 2: is trying to get away from a situation and then
[40:48] Speaker 2: he gets necty. What about people who have high risk propensity.
[40:54] Speaker 2: For such persons, it is not necessarily money for them.
[40:56] Speaker 2: They think that the higher deal risk, the higher the reward. True,
[41:00] Speaker 2: when you talk to them about gambling, they are wondering
[41:01] Speaker 2: how much risk you know is involved. Once they see
[41:04] Speaker 2: that is high risk, they put their money in it
[41:06] Speaker 2: and then they get hooked. So different levels of vulnerabilities,
[41:11] Speaker 2: you know, make people fall into gambling addiction. And I
[41:15] Speaker 2: think that before a person gets into addiction, it has
[41:19] Speaker 2: to be a very real, vulnerable situation. Because people ordinarily
[41:25] Speaker 2: approach gambling, especially those who are looking for money. From
[41:28] Speaker 2: the economic perspective, the average person would think, oh, if
[41:32] Speaker 2: this thing is not paying me anymore, I want to stop.
[41:35] Speaker 2: But one thing that operators are doing to get them,
[41:38] Speaker 2: which is why there's no excuse for them, is this.
[41:41] Speaker 2: Some of them will offer you free odds or three games.
[41:47] Speaker 2: What they're doing Effectively, they're not losing your money, but
[41:49] Speaker 2: you cannot cash out when you win. You have to
[41:52] Speaker 2: put your own money. If they can keep you to
[41:54] Speaker 2: play three, four or five times consistently on the platform,
[41:57] Speaker 2: they've got in you already causing you're already so they
[42:01] Speaker 2: understand the psychology of the player. You have to have
[42:04] Speaker 2: liked our platform for you to stay there. Yeah, I
[42:07] Speaker 2: mean if it was bad after your third time, you
[42:09] Speaker 2: should leave.
[42:12] Speaker 1: Are there? Women go? Bless A lot of.
[42:14] Speaker 2: Them, a lot of them. We did the research in
[42:17] Speaker 2: twenty ten, three years old now, so men, we are
[42:20] Speaker 2: always careful with quoting it. We found out that while
[42:23] Speaker 2: you could say two over three are men, we also
[42:27] Speaker 2: can say one over three are women. So there are women,
[42:33] Speaker 2: bless a number of them. In fact, there are more
[42:36] Speaker 2: women gambling now than we used to have for economic reasons,
[42:41] Speaker 2: more than the men. No, no, no, no, more than the men,
[42:45] Speaker 2: by our treatments statistics, it's a fair cry. It's either
[42:51] Speaker 2: because women ordinarily are not seeking help, or because generally
[42:56] Speaker 2: the demography just tills towards the men. So boy, it's
[42:59] Speaker 2: hard to tell what generally know by the data that
[43:02] Speaker 2: we have. No, it's not more than the man, but
[43:04] Speaker 2: we have more of them than we used to have.
[43:06] Speaker 1: Do you want to share some of the of course,
[43:08] Speaker 1: without mentioning names. Some of the worst gambling stories.
[43:14] Speaker 2: I think that some years ago someone reached out to
[43:21] Speaker 2: me around for that is something there about. Actually he
[43:30] Speaker 2: had been yearning all night to call, but he was thinking, oh,
[43:35] Speaker 2: they would not have opened their office. They may not
[43:37] Speaker 2: call displacing the middle of the night, but of past
[43:41] Speaker 2: four he could no longer hold it. You just had
[43:43] Speaker 2: to call. I take the call because I mean, it
[43:46] Speaker 2: was a new number wide displace it. It could be
[43:47] Speaker 2: an emergency or something. And then it started wheeping. What happened?
[43:55] Speaker 2: He had got dad all of his money to start
[43:59] Speaker 2: his own business, and it was a lot of money.
[44:03] Speaker 2: It was a whole lot of money. I mem We're
[44:05] Speaker 2: talking about tens of millions that year. So he thought
[44:12] Speaker 2: to himself, let me play on this platform and on
[44:17] Speaker 2: that platform. If this one does not come, that one
[44:19] Speaker 2: would come.
[44:20] Speaker 1: That thing that tells you the money can multiply.
[44:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, So the gambling misconception rose up again and he
[44:28] Speaker 2: lost everything. So he just wanted an assurance that would
[44:32] Speaker 2: get back his money. So he was weeping and asking me, Yeah,
[44:35] Speaker 2: what I will get back his money from the gaming
[44:39] Speaker 2: companies seasing losses. I don't think he was chasing losses
[44:45] Speaker 2: for him. It was his first time and they got
[44:50] Speaker 2: hooked like that lost everything first time, put in millions
[44:57] Speaker 2: of high risk propensity. Like we said, reb groups.
[45:02] Speaker 1: But why does it look like you're excusing greed as
[45:05] Speaker 1: a major cause of gambling?
[45:07] Speaker 2: Also because that would be made forwarding the individual. If
[45:12] Speaker 2: your platform is harmful, I can't reduce it to greed.
[45:16] Speaker 2: I'm not ruling it out, but if your platform is
[45:19] Speaker 2: harmful to people, it will be unfair to say it
[45:23] Speaker 2: is great.
[45:23] Speaker 1: Are you saying gambling platforms.
[45:25] Speaker 2: Ample potentially helpful? Gambling on whatever platform is potentially harmful.
[45:30] Speaker 2: It's a risky adventure.
[45:34] Speaker 1: You know, there's this thing they have in America. I've
[45:39] Speaker 1: seen the I've seen big business owners like make zugerbag.
[45:44] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[45:45] Speaker 1: Being someone that's been questioned about the ethics of your platforms, right,
[45:51] Speaker 1: do you think the government should begin to someone and
[45:53] Speaker 1: questioned gambling.
[45:54] Speaker 2: Absolutely, which is why we're talking about priority. If your
[45:57] Speaker 2: priority as a regulator is making revenue, Yeah, you have
[46:02] Speaker 2: lost the debate already because look, I have always been
[46:07] Speaker 2: saying it you cannot beat that baby and ask it
[46:09] Speaker 2: not to cry. If my intention is to come into
[46:14] Speaker 2: your country to spend x amount year, one year, two year, three,
[46:19] Speaker 2: read in terms of losses, but shouldn't be more than this.
[46:23] Speaker 2: If it's more than that, I'm existing the industry. Yeah, good,
[46:27] Speaker 2: And then you're asking me to pay a licensee that
[46:30] Speaker 2: is nearing that amount already. And then at the end
[46:34] Speaker 2: of the day, you're still asking me to pay certain
[46:36] Speaker 2: amounts of money. The next thing that's come into my
[46:41] Speaker 2: mind as an operator, as a business owner, is how
[46:44] Speaker 2: do I make back this money? Sure, even if someone
[46:48] Speaker 2: says it is off the misery of the next person,
[46:52] Speaker 2: I wouldn't ordinarily care because I need to make back
[46:54] Speaker 2: my bottom line.
[46:56] Speaker 1: Right.
[46:57] Speaker 2: So if regulators begin to say, look, yes we need
[47:02] Speaker 2: the revenue, Yes the country needs money, and it trickles
[47:05] Speaker 2: down from top to bottom. Because as your political office
[47:08] Speaker 2: order you have you want to also consider some of
[47:10] Speaker 2: the inter cases. As I get into the office, you
[47:12] Speaker 2: have a target by the governor, then the government.
[47:15] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[47:16] Speaker 2: So the government gives you a target, you're making it
[47:18] Speaker 2: from an industry that is also making it in turn
[47:20] Speaker 2: making it from the players. So if you're trying to satisfy.
[47:24] Speaker 2: That's why there has to be a signergy in terms
[47:27] Speaker 2: of purpose with the regulator and other government officials. Yeah,
[47:32] Speaker 2: because if the internal revenue is saying, look, we need
[47:35] Speaker 2: this amount of money from you, and then the governor
[47:38] Speaker 2: of the state also saying we need this amount of
[47:40] Speaker 2: money from you, you are under praisure as a political
[47:43] Speaker 2: office order. So you're thinking, how do I make money.
[47:46] Speaker 2: Let me increase the license fee. The operator who has
[47:50] Speaker 2: to pay it is thinking, okay, that's it exactly, that's
[47:54] Speaker 2: more money I'm spending. So when you drop a proposal
[47:56] Speaker 2: and it's table to say, look, you need to begin
[47:58] Speaker 2: to fund treatment, it's asking you should you take the
[48:00] Speaker 2: money from because it has a big marketing budget I
[48:03] Speaker 2: need to exhaust.
[48:04] Speaker 1: So you're saying that the government should begin by reducing.
[48:11] Speaker 2: No, I'm saying that and chase revenue. Revenue will come.
[48:17] Speaker 2: So if you're asking government to reduce revenue at the
[48:20] Speaker 2: end of the day, again.
[48:21] Speaker 1: You know you're a very polite person. Every revenue that
[48:28] Speaker 1: comes to the Gamble organization is off the mystery of someone.
[48:33] Speaker 2: Largely. I would say yes. However, irregulator that is smart,
[48:40] Speaker 2: No starts you cannot make enough revenue of licenses. HM,
[48:47] Speaker 2: it's always from enforcement, definitely. So if I know that
[48:54] Speaker 2: I will make a lot of money by chasing people
[48:56] Speaker 2: who are not compliant, then make sure that comply. Answer
[49:00] Speaker 2: is easy, but non compliance is expensive. True. In fact,
[49:05] Speaker 2: that way people in the black market, Because we're talking
[49:09] Speaker 2: about the people who are even regulated to an extent here,
[49:12] Speaker 2: how about the guys in the black market who is
[49:15] Speaker 2: monitoring them? Because we're assuming that when we're control gambling
[49:21] Speaker 2: to it an extent, or we stop gambling within the
[49:23] Speaker 2: regulated market, then the arm is gone. Not necessarily, the
[49:26] Speaker 2: person who is gambling or who wants to gamble will
[49:29] Speaker 2: look for it. Anyway. We used to crack a joke
[49:33] Speaker 2: about the gaming operator. I'm not going to mention the name.
[49:36] Speaker 2: They are a big retail brand. We used to joke
[49:39] Speaker 2: that if they put their shop under the sea, people
[49:42] Speaker 2: will go there to play.
[49:43] Speaker 1: I know them, I know them, so.
[49:47] Speaker 2: People will play anyway. So if you not stop it,
[49:50] Speaker 2: what you're doing effectively is to drive them to the
[49:51] Speaker 2: black market where there is no protection, and they will
[49:54] Speaker 2: continue to play. Interestingly. So Nigerian sensibility is quite different
[50:00] Speaker 2: in a country like they have a national regulator in
[50:03] Speaker 2: n Yea. It's not the same you have thirty sixties
[50:06] Speaker 2: because the city. So if Lego Stays is leading the child,
[50:08] Speaker 2: what is all you're doing? What doing?
[50:10] Speaker 1: So?
[50:10] Speaker 2: If Lego Stays stops you from gambling because of their regulation,
[50:13] Speaker 2: you go through all your state and go and gamble
[50:16] Speaker 2: at the end of the day, effectively you're not You're
[50:18] Speaker 2: not stopping anything. I mean before now again, I say
[50:22] Speaker 2: this advisedly because somehow the black market still exists and
[50:26] Speaker 2: it's quite large. It is large, it's quite quite large.
[50:31] Speaker 2: There were operators who were openly, you know, doing business
[50:35] Speaker 2: in Nigeria from outside Africa. Wow, openly, no license, no regulation, nothing,
[50:43] Speaker 2: things that they would ordinarily not doing their jurisdiction they
[50:46] Speaker 2: will do here. And then while some advocates would say
[50:49] Speaker 2: why are operators doing this? I love at them and wondering,
[50:52] Speaker 2: or you think that people should activate their moral path
[50:56] Speaker 2: so that they would support you when your own regulators
[50:59] Speaker 2: are business sleeping hmmm, you should be the one waking
[51:02] Speaker 2: up to say.
[51:03] Speaker 1: Then, how can you even have an effective regulator if
[51:08] Speaker 1: our system is redled, destroyed bribes.
[51:12] Speaker 2: That's a very important point that you have made, and
[51:15] Speaker 2: I don't think that there is anyone who can explain
[51:17] Speaker 2: away corruption. There's no body who can explain it. Again,
[51:22] Speaker 2: it's good. It goes back to problem gambling. If and
[51:28] Speaker 2: I'm not pointing things out to any regulator. I'm not
[51:31] Speaker 2: saying anyone is to doin this. I'm just asking if,
[51:36] Speaker 2: after paying my license, my taxes monthly, good courses, and
[51:43] Speaker 2: I remit taxes from the winnings of my players, my customers,
[51:50] Speaker 2: if you as a regulator still approach me for bribes,
[51:55] Speaker 2: if you still approach me to buy you expensive things?
[51:59] Speaker 2: Mm hmm, what moral stands do you have to regulate me?
[52:07] Speaker 2: So there are deep issues. In fact, I dare say
[52:11] Speaker 2: that in Africa. I mean, as of twenty twenty four,
[52:14] Speaker 2: we had about forty to forty one countries who had
[52:18] Speaker 2: some sort of regulation around gambling.
[52:22] Speaker 1: Which countries leading that in Africa moment.
[52:25] Speaker 2: I'd say Nigeria regulation. Yes, one would ordnorarily argue South Africa.
[52:34] Speaker 2: Okay again I say this, advisor, I was.
[52:37] Speaker 1: Going to talk about probably wonder.
[52:40] Speaker 2: Now really the game and industry. So there are three
[52:44] Speaker 2: countries in Africa who are leading the charge, not regulatory wise,
[52:48] Speaker 2: now in terms of market size. Angeria Kenya and South Africa,
[52:54] Speaker 2: and interestingly they also are the ones leading the charge
[52:57] Speaker 2: in terms of regulation.
[52:58] Speaker 1: Wow.
[52:59] Speaker 2: So we have Tanzania, we have Uganda, we have Rwanda
[53:02] Speaker 2: who are coming up really fast, you know with regulations.
[53:06] Speaker 2: But in terms of structure, yes, South Africa because AGAs
[53:15] Speaker 2: Responsible Gaming is over twenty years responsible gaming right, the program,
[53:21] Speaker 2: the structure around responsible game is over twenty years old.
[53:24] Speaker 2: In Nigeria is a little over five years old. Wow. So,
[53:30] Speaker 2: but then Nigeria has caught up so much. When I
[53:32] Speaker 2: say Nigeria, i'm in legal state, has got up so much.
[53:36] Speaker 2: In fact, before mentioning Rwanda mentioned Botswana. Oh yeah, Buttswana.
[53:44] Speaker 2: I think that last year, if we needed to do
[53:47] Speaker 2: a poll, everybody would choose Botswana ahead of any other
[53:50] Speaker 2: regulator in Africa.
[53:51] Speaker 1: Wow.
[53:52] Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of structure, in terms of regulation, you know,
[53:55] Speaker 2: the president of Botswana is very very level added man
[53:59] Speaker 2: right right, And the country's gambling markets is so young
[54:06] Speaker 2: that you will be amissed how much work that they're done. Wow.
[54:11] Speaker 2: So in fact, there are regulators who are big, there
[54:13] Speaker 2: are markets that are big now that are still learning
[54:15] Speaker 2: from Botswana right in terms of what they're doing. But
[54:19] Speaker 2: then because of Nigeria's attention to responsible gaming in the
[54:23] Speaker 2: last few years. We've also know that you know that
[54:26] Speaker 2: when Nigeria decides that they want to go big on something,
[54:28] Speaker 2: you hear the noisy whole lot, you know, So it
[54:31] Speaker 2: looks as though the regulator again legal states, and then
[54:36] Speaker 2: we've also seen some other states now who have come
[54:38] Speaker 2: up with very robust laws and number states. For instance,
[54:41] Speaker 2: if you check their gaming law, you'll be wondering, where
[54:44] Speaker 2: have you been all the world? Wow, it's some solid stuff.
[54:48] Speaker 2: We're not where we should be. My point is not
[54:51] Speaker 2: to say that their day is to say, oh, there
[54:55] Speaker 2: is improvements in this regard, yeah, right, but to compare
[54:59] Speaker 2: with other are African countries amil taxation, responsible gaming cumulatively,
[55:07] Speaker 2: I'll choose Nigeria, and then I'll choose South Africa, then Botswana,
[55:11] Speaker 2: then care Wow.
[55:15] Speaker 1: Before I let you go, and I just want to
[55:19] Speaker 1: thank you for coming everyone on short notice. What are
[55:27] Speaker 1: the markers? How do you identify? How can someone know
[55:34] Speaker 1: someone who probably is still gambling ethically? I probably am
[55:38] Speaker 1: going on the journey of no return? What are the markers? Right?
[55:42] Speaker 2: There are very many of them. When a person begins
[55:44] Speaker 2: to lie about your gambling. It doesn't matter whether I
[55:47] Speaker 2: am an occasional gambler. You know that something is wrong,
[55:51] Speaker 2: you're hiding it. When someone is gambling at the end
[55:57] Speaker 2: of the month, doesn't gamble other times, or he gambles
[56:00] Speaker 2: mouthly other times where increases is best at the end
[56:03] Speaker 2: of the morning, it shows you that this person is
[56:04] Speaker 2: spending his salary. True. Also, if you notice that someone
[56:10] Speaker 2: is using multiple credit cards or debut cards to play
[56:14] Speaker 2: on your platform, clearly is either using stolen cards or
[56:19] Speaker 2: he has masked out the other card and then it
[56:21] Speaker 2: needs to play. Yeah, these has signs for you. When
[56:25] Speaker 2: you also notice that when you have a conversation with
[56:28] Speaker 2: someone he doesn't talk about any perform gambling. You can't
[56:30] Speaker 2: go take two minutes without mentioning gambling. There's a problem somewhere,
[56:35] Speaker 2: you know. And then when somebody tells you that I
[56:40] Speaker 2: just need to make this one back, then I'll quit.
[56:45] Speaker 2: That's a mark of harm the person is headed towards.
[56:48] Speaker 2: In fact, when a person begins to chase losses, the
[56:50] Speaker 2: person is moving towards how serious harm because at that
[56:55] Speaker 2: point you are on an ending journey. Right, so I
[57:01] Speaker 2: have placed two fifty thousand a round this and then
[57:03] Speaker 2: I've got Interestingly, the system will work for you. You
[57:06] Speaker 2: get fifteen thousand and making it and making it, and
[57:09] Speaker 2: then you continue to play until you have lost everything again.
[57:12] Speaker 2: So chasing losses would also be a mar car of
[57:15] Speaker 2: arm amongst many other issues.
[57:17] Speaker 1: Right, So usually even when a person makes what looks
[57:21] Speaker 1: like a lot, he's still going back.
[57:25] Speaker 2: For us, the tests of gambling harm is not how
[57:29] Speaker 2: much you've made or how much you have lost.
[57:32] Speaker 1: It's what you know that.
[57:36] Speaker 2: Our vulnerable ability levels are different, and pockets the depth
[57:41] Speaker 2: is different. If a person wakes up one day he
[57:45] Speaker 2: has a lot of money and then he spends five
[57:47] Speaker 2: hundred millionaire, I mean there's no such treashold within the
[57:51] Speaker 2: industry anyway. Just for an example, spend five hundred millionaire
[57:54] Speaker 2: out of his trillions. For him is one of those things.
[57:58] Speaker 2: For the other person hm, hm, whose only hope is
[58:02] Speaker 2: the twenty thousand MIRA pay it gets and then he
[58:05] Speaker 2: puts that amount compare the amounts m you would say, oh,
[58:10] Speaker 2: if somebody plays with this amount of money, must be
[58:13] Speaker 2: a problem gambler. Whereas the person who is a problem
[58:15] Speaker 2: gambler is the one who has played less amount of money.
[58:18] Speaker 1: Compared to what exactly.
[58:21] Speaker 2: So whether you are winning, in fact that you're winning
[58:25] Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're not a problem gambler. You can win
[58:28] Speaker 2: all you want. It doesn't mean that you have escaped camping.
[58:33] Speaker 2: People are winning, so it will be unfair to also
[58:37] Speaker 2: say that people are not winning. There are people who say, oh,
[58:39] Speaker 2: we know that Manchester City is a very good club.
[58:43] Speaker 2: In a season, they're not going to lose more than
[58:47] Speaker 2: ten times. So I calculate what I want to put there,
[58:51] Speaker 2: and then I place all my beds on Manchester City,
[58:54] Speaker 2: so I know that I will win more than I
[58:57] Speaker 2: would lose. That's calculation, and interestingly, because of the current
[59:00] Speaker 2: form of the team, you now get such returns from it.
[59:04] Speaker 2: That's not to say that you know which game is come.
[59:07] Speaker 2: It's going to come. So, yes, people win. I think
[59:11] Speaker 2: that it will be incomplete to now say that everybody
[59:14] Speaker 2: who plays is losing all their money. There are people
[59:17] Speaker 2: who definitely are winning, and I'm sure that you probably
[59:22] Speaker 2: in fact winning. You know that there's something that they
[59:26] Speaker 2: call in psychology. I'm trying to remember the term now,
[59:31] Speaker 2: you know, encouraging another person to go ahead to play.
[59:35] Speaker 2: Sometimes you don't want to gamble, but because you have
[59:37] Speaker 2: enaghbored who has just one? It encourages you as well. Reinforcement,
[59:43] Speaker 2: that's the word I'm looking for. Reinforcement. And it's as
[59:47] Speaker 2: simple as walking in the street and then someone is
[59:52] Speaker 2: just announcing lotric tickets and all of that you are
[59:55] Speaker 2: not interested. Suddenly you hear someone's scream I have won,
[1:00:00] Speaker 2: and then you begin to exactly you begin to think, oh,
[1:00:04] Speaker 2: it could have been me. So if it was your
[1:00:07] Speaker 2: parents who sent you on an errand to plait to
[1:00:09] Speaker 2: to to buy something, you think, oh, I'm helping mommy.
[1:00:13] Speaker 2: If it's five hundred nard they give to you, you
[1:00:15] Speaker 2: want to make two thy five hundred because of the
[1:00:17] Speaker 2: lottery tickets. So right, winning happens. There are people who win.
[1:00:25] Speaker 1: You know, this is a very sobering one. Right, I've
[1:00:30] Speaker 1: seen too many people whose lives have been erect correct
[1:00:33] Speaker 1: by this, so many rooms broken, correct, relationships lost, bonds destroyed,
[1:00:42] Speaker 1: trust gone. That's right because once people get oooped on gambling,
[1:00:48] Speaker 1: there are the advices that comes lying stealing for those
[1:00:53] Speaker 1: who are problem gamblers, substance abuse, substance abuse to deal
[1:00:58] Speaker 1: with depression. Correct, it's coming, right, because it's just going
[1:01:05] Speaker 1: to be anything to get money correct. And I'm just
[1:01:09] Speaker 1: going to say this for those who are probably a
[1:01:12] Speaker 1: few they are not at that level yet, but as
[1:01:15] Speaker 1: long as you're in it, you're higher risk in the
[1:01:18] Speaker 1: vidle right, and you know, and for those who are
[1:01:27] Speaker 1: already at the level where you've lost too many things,
[1:01:30] Speaker 1: relationships lost, trust, lost everything, get help, get help, because
[1:01:41] Speaker 1: that's just one life being blown away. And I just
[1:01:45] Speaker 1: want to thank you and your organization from what you
[1:01:49] Speaker 1: for what you're doing. I've heard about it before and
[1:01:53] Speaker 1: hearing from you personally and bring it up. Believe, I
[1:01:57] Speaker 1: think that the continent is going to be a better
[1:02:01] Speaker 1: place for people like you. It might not be a
[1:02:04] Speaker 1: sector where people have paid attention to even know the
[1:02:08] Speaker 1: volume of works you're doing, but I think that already
[1:02:12] Speaker 1: you're making the difference. I want to thank you for
[1:02:14] Speaker 1: coming to the class right, Thank
[1:02:16] Speaker 2: You, Thank you very much for having I appreciate it.

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