# Episode 46: Upsolve in Depth—When does Legal Explanation Become Illegal?

An episode of [Proof Over Precedent](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1820477277), 20 Apr 2026, 23 min.

Audio: https://episodes.castos.com/67d061eaad7341-50126521/2422164/c1e-pq15pbww50qu4nwq6-gpjk7v7ob74o-3lljs7.mp3

The role of trained nonlawyer volunteers is at the center of a back-and-forth court case between nonprofit Upsolve, Inc. and Letitia James, attorney general of the state of New York. This "Student Voices" episode tackles both the access to justice issues at stake for indigent defendants in debt collection cases, as well as New York's unauthorized practice of law statute governing the decision(s), including the most recent ruling by the New York District Court in March. When a service akin to legal and procedural translation is measured against the practice of law itself, it leaves access to justice in an uncertain state.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker A: Imagine a justice system built on rigorous evidence, not gut instincts or educated guesses about what works and what doesn't. More people could access the civil justice they deserve. The criminal justice system could be smaller, more effective, and more humane. The Access to Justice Lab here at Harvard Law School is producing that needed evidence, and this podcast is about the challenge of transforming law into an evidence based field. I'm your host, Jim Griner, and this is Proof Over Precedent. This week we're bringing you a student voice.
[0:38] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Ashel javeri and I'm a 2L at Harvard Law School. On today's episode of the Proof of a Precedent podcast, I'll be talking about a super interesting case in New York called Upsolve v. James that's been percolating through the district and appellate levels over the past couple years. I want to start off just by setting the scene and giving us some background on the organization and the case that will be helpful to understand what's happening. Then I'll explore some of the procedural posture and the legal questions that have been raised by this case and explain how the various courts have answered some of them. Just this past Friday, March 6, 2026, the Southern District of New York ruled on a key part of the case on remand, dismissing Upsolve's motion for a preliminary injunction against the State of New York. This decision came out after my blog was written. So for those of you who've read the blog, keep listening to this podcast because we're going to be talking about some new material. What did the court decide? My thoughts on how they might have erred and what they did. Right, and where did the case go from here, including a long shot appeal to the Supreme Court. With that, let's get into it. So Upsolve is a Nonprofit founded in 2016, actually a Harvard graduate, and it aims to help low income people file for personal bankruptcy and discharge their debts. More recently, it tried to help people in New York respond to debt collection actions brought against them. So a lot of the time if you get into, for example, credit card debt and are unable to pay, the company will file a case against you in state court, which is what I'm referring to when I say a debt collection action. One major issue in these types of debt collection actions is an extraordinarily high failure to appear rate, which is estimated at 70 to 90%. And the issue with that is when a defendant fails to appear in court, the court will enter a default judgment against the defendant,…
[21:48] Speaker A: Proof Over Precedent is a production of the Access to Justice Lab at Harvard Law School. Views expressed in student podcasts are not necessarily those of the A J Lab. Thanks for listening. If we piqued your interest, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Even better, leave us a rating or share an episode with a friend or on social media. Here's a sneak preview of what we'll bring you next week.
[22:16] Speaker C: So if you're in an accident in the 1920s, first of all, you're lucky if you get out of it okay. Cars were not super safe back then, nor were roads particularly safe. It was. It was quite a fraught experience driving in the early 20th century. But say you did get in an accident and you survived and you needed to file some kind of action against the other driver. If you were a member of an auto club like aaa, and thousands and thousands and thousands of American drivers were members of auto clubs at the time, there were over 1000 automobile clubs, offshoots of AAA around the country at that time, you would have had your own personal car lawyer to call.

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