# What Happened to ...Kathleen O'Shea

An episode of [What Happened To…](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1812362613), 2 Jun 2026, 25 min.

Audio: https://p.podderapp.com/2544644999/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2fb3740d-3436-44af-8cc0-a91900716aa5/8c185e62-46f1-4292-81b7-b2d00059655d/d9ab2d53-0504-4be6-a52f-b457002f2390/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=fcf80ea6-cd25-4daa-b194-b2d000596ad2

When we first released this podcast in 2020, Kathleen “Katie” O’Shea’s family had already spent nearly 15 years searching for answers. Now, on the 20th anniversary of her disappearance and suspected murder, police and Katie’s daughter are again appealing to the public. Katie was last seen in Atherton on 29 December 2005 after travelling to Queensland to visit family. A coronial inquest later found she likely died soon after, in the Tablelands area. With a $500,000 reward now on offer, investigators believe someone still knows what happened. In this episode, we revisit Katie’s story, the unanswered questions, and the family’s ongoing fight for truth and justice. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Appoche production.
[0:13] Speaker 2: My mum was.
[0:18] Speaker 3: Funny, she was smart, she was a clectic, she was
[0:25] Speaker 3: out there, she was maternal, she was loving, she was
[0:29] Speaker 3: or bonkers, but yeah she was.
[0:34] Speaker 2: She was awesome. She was the best mum.
[0:37] Speaker 3: I know everyone says that about their mums, but she
[0:39] Speaker 3: was the best mum. She went the extra mile for
[0:41] Speaker 3: us and just went nuts.
[0:44] Speaker 4: That's Lily PARMANSA Lily is now in the mid thirties,
[0:48] Speaker 4: but back in two thousand and five, she was just nineteen,
[0:52] Speaker 4: a nineteen year old doing what most do, loving life,
[0:56] Speaker 4: a boyfriend, starting a career as a hairdresser, and a
[1:01] Speaker 4: close knit family with three brothers and a sister. But
[1:07] Speaker 4: on December twenty nine, two thousand and five, that all changed.
[1:15] Speaker 5: Carrie to the Mountain, my friend, you see again. She'll
[1:29] Speaker 5: love me, the wall, She'll love me.
[1:38] Speaker 1: In December two thousand and five, Katie O'Shea was visiting
[1:43] Speaker 1: family and friends in the Athton tablelands of far North
[1:47] Speaker 1: Queensland when she simply vanished.
[1:52] Speaker 3: Mum had two sisters and a brother. She was the
[1:56] Speaker 3: second eldest. She grew up in Morrilbuck for I think
[2:01] Speaker 3: her primary and the start of her high school years,
[2:04] Speaker 3: and then her family moved to Balwyn and she went
[2:07] Speaker 3: to Genzano until she felt pregnant with my brother. To
[2:12] Speaker 3: be honest, mum sort of didn't really. She didn't really
[2:18] Speaker 3: talk about life before kids, I think because she started
[2:22] Speaker 3: having kids so young. But I know that when she
[2:25] Speaker 3: moved to Balwin, I know that she had a bit
[2:28] Speaker 3: of trouble fitting in with the girls there, and I
[2:30] Speaker 3: know that she felt like a little bit of an outcast.
[2:34] Speaker 4: Kathleen mary O'shay, or Katie as her friends would end
[2:39] Speaker 4: up calling her, was born in Melbourne in nineteen sixty
[2:43] Speaker 4: one to a conservative Catholic family. Katie was a little different.
[2:49] Speaker 3: Yeah, well she had my brother at sixteen, so you
[2:53] Speaker 3: know she sort of her teenage years were being a
[2:58] Speaker 3: mum and then eventually running away with the hippies. My
[3:01] Speaker 3: mum was very down to earth. There's not a lot
[3:04] Speaker 3: of pretense to her. And the school she went to it's,
[3:08] Speaker 3: you know, the top private girls Catholic school.
[3:10] Speaker 2: In Victoria, so.
[3:13] Speaker 3: I think she sort of struggled to, I guess, find
[3:16] Speaker 3: her place there. She I know that she told me
[3:21] Speaker 3: once that she got a perm because she wanted to
[3:23] Speaker 3: fit in with the girls there, and she still said
[3:25] Speaker 3: the bitches didn't like me.
[3:26] Speaker 4: Can you talk to me about why? Do you think
[3:28] Speaker 4: she felt like a bit of an outcast back then?
[3:30] Speaker 3: I think it was just very clique and Mum's not
[3:32] Speaker 3: really like that, so I think she just, yeah, I
[3:35] Speaker 3: think she just felt really out of place and just
[3:37] Speaker 3: couldn't connect with the girls on her year level. She
[3:39] Speaker 3: had some sort of she hung out with her older
[3:42] Speaker 3: sister and her friends, but eventually her sister moved school,
[3:46] Speaker 3: so you know, she sort of just I think after
[3:49] Speaker 3: that she felt pregnant.
[3:51] Speaker 4: And you said she's a bit of a hippie. What
[3:54] Speaker 4: does that sort of mean.
[3:57] Speaker 2: She didn't wear any makeup. She would but she did wear.
[4:00] Speaker 3: Purple eyeliner and beetroot on her cheeks because for blush
[4:04] Speaker 3: and coloring. She had the strangest sense of fashion sometimes,
[4:13] Speaker 3: you know, just very lots of jewelry. I guess you
[4:18] Speaker 3: could call that boho now, but you know, as a kid, you.
[4:22] Speaker 2: Like, what the hell are you wearing?
[4:23] Speaker 5: Woman?
[4:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, she was just she was just very free spirited.
[4:32] Speaker 4: Much to the shock of her mum and dad. After
[4:35] Speaker 4: leaving school in early nineteen seventy nine, Katie had a
[4:39] Speaker 4: baby at sixteen years old.
[4:44] Speaker 3: The baby is my older brother, Allan. She had him
[4:49] Speaker 3: when she was sixteen. I do remember when she after
[4:53] Speaker 3: she gave birth. I think the nurses sort of went, okay,
[4:57] Speaker 3: now say goodbye moment, what are you doing with my child?
[4:59] Speaker 3: And they went, well, you know, because it was nineteen
[5:02] Speaker 3: seventy nine when she had him, so traditionally a lot
[5:04] Speaker 3: of the teen mums they gave their babies up for adoption,
[5:06] Speaker 3: and Mum refused.
[5:07] Speaker 2: To do that.
[5:08] Speaker 3: Now my kid, piss off, leave me alone, that's my child,
[5:11] Speaker 3: give him back and yeah, and then she I think
[5:16] Speaker 3: after she had Alan, she sort of slowly made her
[5:20] Speaker 3: way up to North Queensland. I'm not one hundred percent
[5:23] Speaker 3: sure what took her up there, but I know that
[5:26] Speaker 3: she slowly made her way up there, settling in Nimben
[5:29] Speaker 3: for a little bit and stuff like that.
[5:33] Speaker 4: And so Alan's dad was he on the scene at
[5:36] Speaker 4: that time.
[5:38] Speaker 3: I think they split up when he was quite young.
[5:40] Speaker 3: I think he was still a baby when they split.
[5:45] Speaker 3: I've like, I don't know how close they were when
[5:49] Speaker 3: Alan was a kid. I've had a couple of interactions
[5:53] Speaker 3: with him sort of during my years and obviously left
[5:56] Speaker 3: to mum rang after mum disappeared.
[5:58] Speaker 2: I actually rang him. I'm like, have you seen mom?
[6:01] Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't think that he stayed in Allen's
[6:05] Speaker 3: life full time.
[6:07] Speaker 4: We'll say, and so after your mom split with Alan's dad,
[6:11] Speaker 4: you said she slowly made her way up to Queensland.
[6:15] Speaker 4: How did she make her way up to Queensland.
[6:17] Speaker 2: She probably would have buses.
[6:21] Speaker 3: Trains. She wouldn't have hitchhiked, not with Alan.
[6:26] Speaker 4: Anyway, we're talking late seventies. Your mum was a hippie.
[6:32] Speaker 4: She's got a new baby at sort of sixteen seventeen,
[6:35] Speaker 4: and she travels through places like Nimbon. She was a
[6:39] Speaker 4: pretty free loving spirit then.
[6:41] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, not your sixties, you know, peace, love and rock.
[6:47] Speaker 3: I actually know she was a little bit like that actually,
[6:49] Speaker 3: but she was more of a Jimmy Hendrix kind of hippie,
[6:51] Speaker 3: not a Rolling Stones kind of hippie. I was born
[7:01] Speaker 3: in a little house in Millamella in far North Queensland.
[7:09] Speaker 3: It's about three or three hours up the Giant Hill
[7:12] Speaker 3: from Cans up on the table lands. I was a
[7:16] Speaker 3: home birth because my mum wanted her best friend and
[7:19] Speaker 3: my auntie to deliver me. I apparently took three days
[7:24] Speaker 3: to come out. Apparently I was a stubborn baby. I
[7:31] Speaker 3: do know that Dad told me. I think after the
[7:32] Speaker 3: third day, she went, I can't do this anymore. Just
[7:34] Speaker 3: get me to a hospital, get this thing out of me.
[7:37] Speaker 3: And as soon as Dad got her in the car,
[7:38] Speaker 3: her water burst and he had to drive her back
[7:40] Speaker 3: went basically back down the driveway. And yeah, So we
[7:48] Speaker 3: lived up there, I think for a couple of years,
[7:51] Speaker 3: and then I think I was about eighteen months old,
[7:54] Speaker 3: and then we came down to Melbourne. Mum, Alan, Dad
[8:00] Speaker 3: and I. I don't think my grandmother had even known
[8:04] Speaker 3: that my mum was pregnant with me during that time.
[8:07] Speaker 3: And so when Mum sort of rocked up on the doorsteps,
[8:09] Speaker 3: she's like, Hi, do you remember Alan.
[8:11] Speaker 2: Oh, I've got a child. This is my partner.
[8:14] Speaker 4: Welcome And so your dad sort of took Allan under
[8:19] Speaker 4: his wing as his own.
[8:21] Speaker 3: I didn't even know that Allan was my half brother
[8:23] Speaker 3: until I was about ten. I still remember my best
[8:26] Speaker 3: friend going to me, you know he's not your real brother, right,
[8:28] Speaker 3: And I went what And I said to Mum is Alan,
[8:32] Speaker 3: does Alan have a different dad? And she goes, yeah,
[8:35] Speaker 3: he does, but we don't differentiate in our family, that's
[8:37] Speaker 3: not how we do things, and we never spoke about
[8:39] Speaker 3: it again. He was just She's like, you know, it
[8:42] Speaker 3: doesn't matter if it's different. Daddy's still your dad's son.
[8:44] Speaker 3: He loves him all the same.
[8:49] Speaker 4: Lily had three brothers, Alan, her mum's first born when
[8:54] Speaker 4: she was sixteen, and then to John Parman's Lily's dad.
[8:59] Speaker 4: She had Lily born in nineteen eighty six, Danny born
[9:03] Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine, Tim born in nineteen ninety one,
[9:08] Speaker 4: and then Bridgid, the youngest girl, in nineteen ninety four.
[9:14] Speaker 4: Lily remembers the good time she spent with her oldest brother, Allan.
[9:18] Speaker 3: Allan was a really good big brother. He was really
[9:22] Speaker 3: like he wasn't He didn't sort of avoid me, you know,
[9:28] Speaker 3: if we had to get the same school bus or
[9:30] Speaker 3: anything like that.
[9:30] Speaker 2: Not that sort of just my kid's sister.
[9:32] Speaker 3: He was like, I think he used to play barbies
[9:35] Speaker 3: with me on the way to school sometimes, and his
[9:36] Speaker 3: friends would be like, oh, chick Allan out, and he'd
[9:39] Speaker 3: just happily played barbies with me on the way to school.
[9:45] Speaker 3: I remember having a massive tantrum when Danny was born
[9:47] Speaker 3: because I wanted the sister. I was probably the closest
[9:51] Speaker 3: to Alan. I'd lived with him for a period when
[9:56] Speaker 3: I was seventeen. Yeah, we were pretty close. We had
[10:03] Speaker 3: a couple of fallings out, as siblings do. I kind
[10:08] Speaker 3: of I was still angry at the other two for
[10:10] Speaker 3: not being sisters, to be honest, but they were also
[10:15] Speaker 3: you know, I was a little bossy will say, and
[10:18] Speaker 3: I think I was like, oh.
[10:19] Speaker 2: You're my little brothers like you.
[10:22] Speaker 3: But whereas you know, my Alan was, you know, the
[10:25] Speaker 3: one that was sort of you know, if I was
[10:28] Speaker 3: crying at school because I'd hurt my knee, He'd jump
[10:30] Speaker 3: off the school bus, pick me up and try and
[10:31] Speaker 3: calm me down. And so he was always my I
[10:33] Speaker 3: always looked up to Alan.
[10:34] Speaker 4: I guess Alan is an important person in the search
[10:40] Speaker 4: for kadi o'sha. Not only is he her firstborn son,
[10:45] Speaker 4: he was also one of the last people to see
[10:47] Speaker 4: his mum before her disappearance. To this day, Alan has
[10:54] Speaker 4: never agreed to talk to police.
[10:57] Speaker 6: Brett Devines by name. I'm a detective Senior Sergeant. I'm
[11:01] Speaker 6: currently attached to the table NDS Crewel Investigation Ancient Queensland.
[11:07] Speaker 6: I commenced carriage of this investigation in around April May
[11:13] Speaker 6: of two thousand and six.
[11:16] Speaker 4: Remembory so Brett was allan helpful at the coroner's inquest.
[11:22] Speaker 6: While in a word no at the time. Prior to
[11:28] Speaker 6: the inquest, he was served with a summons to appear
[11:31] Speaker 6: and give evidence. At the time of the inquest, he
[11:35] Speaker 6: couldn't be located and a warrant was issued by the
[11:39] Speaker 6: coroner for his arrest, and to date he hasn't contacted police,
[11:45] Speaker 6: and subsequently to the inquest, the coroner withdrew the warrant,
[11:51] Speaker 6: so he's not actually a wanted person, but certainly he
[11:56] Speaker 6: made no effort to provide further information.
[12:02] Speaker 4: Let's head back to the early days before any of
[12:04] Speaker 4: this began, and everything was going well until Lily's mom
[12:10] Speaker 4: and dad decided to end their relationship.
[12:16] Speaker 3: It was a pretty shitty time. Mum was pretty upset
[12:22] Speaker 3: my parents. I believe that they were the loves of
[12:26] Speaker 3: each other's lives, but they just sometimes people just they
[12:32] Speaker 3: couldn't make it work.
[12:33] Speaker 2: So it was.
[12:34] Speaker 3: Pretty tempestuous, and I know that Mum was pretty devastated
[12:41] Speaker 3: when they split. So I remember coming home from a
[12:45] Speaker 3: friend of mine's house and Mum had basically packed up
[12:49] Speaker 3: the house and we went to live in town in Miller, Miller,
[12:54] Speaker 3: and then I think we saw Dad every second weekend.
[13:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, back at the house.
[13:04] Speaker 3: Week were up in and it was it was hard
[13:08] Speaker 3: because Mum was sort of dealing with a breakup as well.
[13:14] Speaker 3: I think that was the saddest I'd seen Mum. I
[13:20] Speaker 3: got into a fight with Mum one night because I
[13:22] Speaker 3: wanted to go to live with Dad. I think because
[13:26] Speaker 3: I've always been a daddy's girl. And then I tried
[13:30] Speaker 3: to run away from home, which means I snuck out
[13:32] Speaker 3: my bedroom window and then went to the payphone, which
[13:34] Speaker 3: was in a small country town. It's about a three
[13:36] Speaker 3: second walk, and Mum found me and I got in
[13:42] Speaker 3: a lot of trouble, and then not long after that
[13:44] Speaker 3: we moved to Melbourne. I moved down to Melbourne first
[13:49] Speaker 3: because I ran away to the payphone, therefore I was
[13:53] Speaker 3: being naughty.
[13:55] Speaker 2: And then Mum I.
[13:56] Speaker 3: Think she wanted to finish up the school year with
[13:58] Speaker 3: the other boys from memory. I think that's that's why.
[14:02] Speaker 3: So I moved down to Melbourne and then Danny, Timmy
[14:06] Speaker 3: Bridgett and Mum came down about three months.
[14:08] Speaker 2: After she was living with her.
[14:14] Speaker 3: Mum again we had had her own place, but my
[14:16] Speaker 3: grandfather had been diagnosed with melanomak a couple of years
[14:24] Speaker 3: before that, and so my grandmother was also taken care
[14:28] Speaker 3: of my cousin whose mum had passed away when he
[14:31] Speaker 3: was two, and so mum sort of we moved back
[14:36] Speaker 3: in so Mom could sort of help Pa basically do
[14:39] Speaker 3: the basic things like go to the toilet and sort
[14:42] Speaker 3: of just be nursemaid type thing.
[14:47] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[14:48] Speaker 3: Yeah, and then yeah, so she was living with my
[14:52] Speaker 3: grandmother and then I know that she wanted to move out,
[14:55] Speaker 3: but financially, I don't think she could afford to at
[14:58] Speaker 3: that point.
[14:58] Speaker 2: As well, her and my grandmother had.
[15:02] Speaker 3: A pretty complicated relationship. Will say, my grandmother's very she's
[15:12] Speaker 3: not a hippie. We'll say, so, she's very Catholic. You know,
[15:17] Speaker 3: you get married, you do this, you do this, and
[15:20] Speaker 3: whereas you know, mum was ran away of the hippies,
[15:23] Speaker 3: had five kids out of wedlock, and that she just
[15:29] Speaker 3: didn't sort of I guess mesh with the with I
[15:34] Speaker 3: guess the idea that my grandmother had no head for
[15:36] Speaker 3: how she wanted her to turn out. And they're both
[15:40] Speaker 3: very strong personalities as well.
[15:42] Speaker 4: So Katie Lily's mum had three sisters, but as Lily
[15:47] Speaker 4: tells us, she was closest to her older sister Colleen.
[15:51] Speaker 3: Her younger sister and her brother were like grandmother. But
[15:57] Speaker 3: her older sister Colleen, who had passed away when I
[16:00] Speaker 3: think I was thirteen or fourteen, she and mum were
[16:04] Speaker 3: a born a year of and Mum was devastated. She'd
[16:08] Speaker 3: passed away quite suddenly. She had an rhythm and yeah,
[16:13] Speaker 3: that gutted Mum. That just destroyed her because that was
[16:16] Speaker 3: essentially that was her best friend. And you know, without
[16:20] Speaker 3: I guess Colleen. You know, there was out of the
[16:23] Speaker 3: four kids, there were the two naughty ones and then
[16:26] Speaker 3: the two sort of good ones, and then with Colleen
[16:29] Speaker 3: passing on, it was just the one naughty one. So
[16:31] Speaker 3: she was sort of automatically outcast into the black sheet,
[16:34] Speaker 3: if that makes sense.
[16:37] Speaker 4: Family are complicated, and the O'Shea family was no different.
[16:42] Speaker 4: I wanted to know from Lily if her mum was
[16:44] Speaker 4: happy when she went missing, given that she'd had a
[16:47] Speaker 4: few tough years with the breakup of the relationship, a
[16:52] Speaker 4: sister dying, and a strained relationship with her own mum, she.
[16:58] Speaker 3: Was thrilled about my niece being born. But she hated
[17:03] Speaker 3: living with my grandmother and she hated Melbourne. But she
[17:11] Speaker 3: was like she was happy. She just I think there
[17:14] Speaker 3: are a few things in her life that she wanted
[17:17] Speaker 3: to be happier about, if that makes sense. I think
[17:20] Speaker 3: one of the last when I last spoke to her,
[17:22] Speaker 3: she I know that she was upset because she'd rang
[17:26] Speaker 3: my grandmother a couple of days after because there's no
[17:29] Speaker 3: phone reception up where she was, so if she wanted
[17:34] Speaker 3: to sort of make calls, it was I was always
[17:36] Speaker 3: there was that bit of a delay. So I think
[17:39] Speaker 3: she rang my grandmother and she said, Okay, I love you, mom,
[17:41] Speaker 3: and my grandmother had said yeah, whatever and hung up,
[17:43] Speaker 3: And so I know that Mum was crying and going
[17:45] Speaker 3: she can't, I think, say that she loves me. She's
[17:48] Speaker 3: pretty upset about that. Other than that, she was, you know,
[17:52] Speaker 3: she had a lot of things to look forward to.
[17:54] Speaker 3: She was planning on coming home and doing wing chun
[17:59] Speaker 3: kung fu. Her brother was getting married, so she was
[18:04] Speaker 3: excited to get all u st up for the wedding.
[18:06] Speaker 3: And you know, she was a grandma, which she was
[18:08] Speaker 3: beyond thrilled about. Yeah, I think, like I think there
[18:15] Speaker 3: are a couple of things that she was unhappy about
[18:17] Speaker 3: as far as her home life, but other than that
[18:19] Speaker 3: she was she was good.
[18:21] Speaker 4: How's your relationship with your grandparents and your mum's sister.
[18:24] Speaker 3: Now, my grandfather passed away when I was sixteen, and
[18:31] Speaker 3: I have very little to do with Mum's side of
[18:33] Speaker 3: the family, given how absent they've been in helping look
[18:37] Speaker 3: for mum.
[18:38] Speaker 2: They haven't.
[18:42] Speaker 3: I think they've, but they didn't appear at the inquest
[18:45] Speaker 3: to my knowledge. I don't even think they inquired about
[18:47] Speaker 3: how the inquest went from my little brother, who was
[18:53] Speaker 3: he's Danny's I like to say he's like Sweden.
[18:57] Speaker 2: He just he's neutral, whereas I'm not.
[19:04] Speaker 3: And so so, Yeah, I think I don't think my
[19:08] Speaker 3: grandmother's asked about how the inquest was. I don't even
[19:11] Speaker 3: think she's I don't think she's called the police to
[19:13] Speaker 3: see any status is on the case. I don't think
[19:16] Speaker 3: my aunt has. I don't think my uncle has, so
[19:22] Speaker 3: as far as I'm concerned, if you like, if you're,
[19:25] Speaker 3: they kind of treated it pretty poorly when she was alive,
[19:28] Speaker 3: and they haven't treated her much better than she's been gone.
[19:31] Speaker 4: You talked about your mum was a really strong woman,
[19:34] Speaker 4: strong willed. You seem the same, I.
[19:40] Speaker 2: Guess, so. I think I had to harden up fast.
[19:45] Speaker 3: I think because I was young when mum went missing,
[19:49] Speaker 3: so and then you know, I sort of had to
[19:51] Speaker 3: step up, so I guess.
[19:52] Speaker 4: So. But your mom had a good friend, John Mackenzie,
[19:56] Speaker 4: who is John.
[19:58] Speaker 3: John Mackenzie was actually my uncle, so my aunt that
[20:04] Speaker 3: had passed way when.
[20:07] Speaker 2: I was.
[20:10] Speaker 3: I want to say twelve, thirteen or fourteen, in those
[20:12] Speaker 3: sort of span, that sort of span. He was actually
[20:15] Speaker 3: the father to one of her kids. They were together
[20:19] Speaker 3: for about ten years. They were still quite friendly and yeah,
[20:26] Speaker 3: Mum sort of still had a friendly relationship with him
[20:30] Speaker 3: or like afterwards as well. She considered him family. There
[20:34] Speaker 3: may have been some romantic relationship at some point. However,
[20:42] Speaker 3: Mum sort of made it a policy not to tell
[20:44] Speaker 3: us about her that sort of thing because a one
[20:49] Speaker 3: gross and I think she just she didn't want to
[20:54] Speaker 3: confuse Bridget as well, you know, with she want to
[20:58] Speaker 3: be one of those women that kept bringing new dad's
[21:00] Speaker 3: home and stuff like that. She just sort of she
[21:02] Speaker 3: wanted to keep that part of her life, I think,
[21:04] Speaker 3: just for her.
[21:05] Speaker 4: And John was helpful around that time. He helped your
[21:09] Speaker 4: mom get up to Queensland.
[21:11] Speaker 2: Before Yeah, yeah, they were, they were pretty close.
[21:15] Speaker 3: She did some housework for him on occasions, he helped
[21:19] Speaker 3: out financially if she needed it. I remember he bought
[21:23] Speaker 3: he helped buy my first hairdressing kit when I was
[21:25] Speaker 3: a first year apprentice, And yeah, he was.
[21:34] Speaker 2: Family.
[21:36] Speaker 4: And how did John cope with your mum's disappearance?
[21:40] Speaker 3: To be honest, we've only just reconnected because when Mum
[21:45] Speaker 3: first were missing, I was kind of fed some really
[21:47] Speaker 3: landish theories on him somehow being involved in it.
[21:52] Speaker 2: So I sort of.
[21:55] Speaker 3: Being young and confused and not knowing what the hell
[21:58] Speaker 3: is going on and why this is happening, I sort
[22:00] Speaker 3: of because it was the only thing that sort of
[22:01] Speaker 3: made sense at that time, I sort of latched onto
[22:03] Speaker 3: that for a little bit. But we've since reconnected and
[22:07] Speaker 3: I've apologized and we're on good terms, and I know
[22:10] Speaker 3: that he misses Mum.
[22:14] Speaker 4: And so those outlandish theories, and this often happens when
[22:18] Speaker 4: people go missing, that people have their own theories on
[22:24] Speaker 4: what happened and how it happened. What were some of
[22:26] Speaker 4: those theories that came to mind around John?
[22:33] Speaker 2: My brother had told me that.
[22:36] Speaker 3: Mum had done some illicit things for him, and that
[22:43] Speaker 3: it was he was the reason that apparently at one
[22:46] Speaker 3: point even said the Russian mafia came up and took
[22:48] Speaker 3: Mum because it was she'd done something for John and
[22:53] Speaker 3: then it had backfired, and then they took her and
[22:56] Speaker 3: hot shots and just it was. To be honest, if
[23:00] Speaker 3: I hadn't had my head sort of so far up
[23:02] Speaker 3: in the clouds, I would have I would have gone,
[23:04] Speaker 3: you know whatever.
[23:06] Speaker 2: But you know, being young, vulnerable and confused.
[23:12] Speaker 4: And which brother was this?
[23:16] Speaker 2: Alan? You opened the scy.
[23:22] Speaker 5: Carrie to the mountains, my friend? You see the looka.
[23:35] Speaker 4: She'll love me.
[23:41] Speaker 2: In the next episode of Missing or Murdered.
[23:46] Speaker 6: There really are only two persons of interested this stage.
[23:50] Speaker 3: I don't know how long they were on the phone for,
[23:52] Speaker 3: but I do know that Mum cried.
[23:55] Speaker 2: It makes me physically ill just thinking about it.
[23:58] Speaker 3: I think it's a bit strange that she bought Stout
[24:01] Speaker 3: and then when he dropped, she left us Stout in
[24:04] Speaker 3: the car up. The last words she said to me
[24:07] Speaker 3: was don't forget how much I love you and how
[24:08] Speaker 3: proud of you I am. Now was it, and she
[24:16] Speaker 3: was gone.
[24:22] Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
[24:25] Speaker 4: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what pod shape
[24:28] Speaker 4: really cares about. Right now, There's thousands of people listening
[24:31] Speaker 4: to this show and our other true Crimes, and they're
[24:34] Speaker 4: completely engaged. More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts
[24:37] Speaker 4: each week. If you've ever thought about advertising your business
[24:41] Speaker 4: in a podcast, there's a link to reach out in
[24:43] Speaker 4: the show notes, or head to podshape dot com to
[24:46] Speaker 4: book a free call.

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