# Winter Break In Spanish Football: Negreira, Barcelona, Bellingham, Pausa

An episode of [The Real Deal: A Real Madrid Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1807821669), 30 Dec 2025, 1 h 05 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/103607aa8/podcast/play/113296777/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-11-30%2F415230944-44100-2-0d87bf54c195.mp3

Ruri Barlow of Football Espana and Siddharth Ramsundar catch up on football over the break. We discuss why Real Madrid fans seem to be in a bubble when it comes to the Negreira conversation, Barcelona's approximate 98 point pace in La Liga, and then we ponder what differentiates Spanish football culture from the rest of Europe and compare it to Great Britain, Germany and Italy.

## Transcript

[0:03] Well, it's nice to have a little break in Spain.
[0:06] They don't get that in England and at all, which is kind of
[0:09] crazy they're playing these days.
[0:11] But really, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
[0:14] Thank you very much for having me back on.
[0:16] And yes, it's nice to get a week off to to enjoy some time, well
[0:21] at least in my case with my family and stuff, as opposed to
[0:24] just watching Spanish football relentlessly, which is what I
[0:27] tend to do at my weekends. Where were you were just
[0:29] travelling around? You go back to the UK just now.
[0:31] Were you in Scotland, England. Where are you from?
[0:34] Yeah, so, well, I'm from Scotland, I've got a few bits of
[0:37] family in England, so it's down there to visit my grandparents
[0:41] this for Christmas. But yes, I was back to Scotland
[0:45] for a couple weeks and now just arrived back in Spain, touched
[0:48] down in Madrid again today. So it was it was quite
[0:52] startlingly and comically funny how comically sunny sorry when I
[0:58] when I got got back, which was a nice refreshment from from
[1:01] getting back to the Gray skies of Scotland.
[1:03] Oh yeah. So yeah, that was a nice welcome
[1:06] back to Spain. Yeah, yeah, it's snowing here in
[1:08] Chicago today. And I like the snow, personally.
[1:10] It makes me feel like I'm on a different planet.
[1:13] But Merry Christmas, everyone. If you celebrate, happy
[1:16] Saturnalia. If you celebrate, if you know
[1:18] about that. I took Latin in high school.
[1:20] I had to. Yeah.
[1:22] The, you know, it's a festive time of the year.
[1:24] Love talking football. I think the big thing right now
[1:28] in Spain, just to jump in Negrera Laporte's hearings,
[1:34] that's something that's talked about a lot.
[1:35] I just wanted to ask you, feels like a lot of rheometer fans are
[1:40] in a bit of a bubble where there's like a sect of fan that
[1:43] thinks everything we've done, we've done right.
[1:45] Everything Florentino touches, turns to gold, gives Vinicius
[1:49] everything he wants. And it goes further into the
[1:52] only reason we haven't retained a league title is Negrera.
[1:55] Now, I'm all for critically analyzing Negrera.
[1:59] I think something happened there.
[2:01] There's no question the money means Barcelona are going to get
[2:03] in some sort of trouble. But I feel like there's a bubble
[2:07] that realm of good fans are in where they suddenly think
[2:10] everyone's against them. And it's that there's a siege
[2:14] mentality. I'm not for for like, like if
[2:16] you're actually on the front lines, but as a fan, to start
[2:19] digesting all these things and to believe that the only reason
[2:23] you didn't win 15 leagues in a row since 2010 is because of
[2:26] Negrera, too far for me. And that's even accepting the
[2:30] argument some of those league titles were because of Negrera.
[2:33] I'm just saying. So where, where do you see all
[2:35] this? Like are 100 fans always in a
[2:37] bubble like this or is this new since does each Champions League
[2:40] increase the bubble size? Maybe it's in the last 15 years.
[2:44] I, I think obviously it depends where the, where the club is
[2:47] basically. I mean, if very Madrid are
[2:48] winning, you hear less about Nicarella and if they're losing,
[2:50] you hear more about it. And I know that that's a a trope
[2:54] that Real Madrid fans get annoyed by.
[2:55] But generally the conversation does turn more because if, if
[2:59] very Madrid are losing, there's going to be one or two
[3:01] controversial calls involved with that.
[3:03] So naturally the conversation then shifts towards referees.
[3:06] And in the last kind of 5-6 years, that's obviously gone
[3:09] towards Nicarella. And I think, yeah, for me at
[3:13] least, coming from a kind of more neutral view of it, I've
[3:18] kind of checked myself out until the case is done to a certain
[3:20] degree. I mean, you can analyse it and
[3:22] you can go bit by bit. We're going to be drip Fred,
[3:25] drip Fred bits of this case for the next two years at least.
[3:29] I'd say probably. I don't see us getting kind of
[3:31] verdict anytime soon. So from my point of view, until
[3:35] we get a verdict, it's kind of hard to kind of nail in on on
[3:40] any kind of aspect of it really, because there's so much that we
[3:43] don't know. We'll obviously be given bits
[3:45] and bobs, as I say, but not the entire picture.
[3:47] And at the same time, I think that it's very fair to say that
[3:51] Barcelona should be punished for the very fact that they were
[3:54] paying the greater. And what you can prove in terms
[3:57] of what they did or didn't influence, that's that's maybe
[4:00] the the crux of the court case. But in terms of just actually
[4:04] paying the greater itself, that that deserves some form of
[4:08] punishment. But yeah, I think it's an
[4:12] argument. And I mean, let's not forget
[4:13] that the greater has not actually been in the referee's
[4:17] kind of committee for the last five years.
[4:19] And you can take that with a pinch of salt as well.
[4:21] And you can say that maybe he he's not that involved.
[4:23] But I think for the rest of the league, the rest, the rest of
[4:27] the league, I think it doesn't really discuss it that much.
[4:30] It only really comes up in the Barcelona, Madrid context.
[4:33] And as we've seen Florentino Perez kind of changing discourse
[4:37] has has made it kind of very much a conversation that's come
[4:41] up in the last six months or so. Yeah, I was always on record
[4:44] saying that Florentino wasn't bringing it up a couple of years
[4:47] ago when he there were opportunities because he needed
[4:49] Barcelona commercially and the Super League was involved.
[4:52] And with Barcelona pulling out of the Super League, it seems
[4:56] like there's no need to really lean on that duopoly
[5:00] commercially for Real Madrid. There's like there's other
[5:02] leagues. We play Man City every year now.
[5:04] We they've pretty much create, like artificially created that
[5:07] rivalry by drawing us every year against them.
[5:09] And you know, they have Guardiola.
[5:11] We can pretend that's Barcelona basically Cosplay and you know,
[5:15] even the passing side to side everything, but I don't think we
[5:18] need them. And I agree that the timing is
[5:21] very opportune because when we're not playing well, when he
[5:24] wants to appoint Aceo to the new structure, and when the report
[5:30] about the nutritionist comes out, that's when he goes after
[5:32] it. And I thought that was the most
[5:34] suspicious timing of all. It's like the straight out of
[5:37] the PR playbook. Pretend the report didn't happen
[5:40] and then like go after your enemies like it was.
[5:43] It was very populist. And and this is something that's
[5:47] occurred throughout the entirety of history.
[5:48] If you look back towards periods where Real Madrid or Barcelona
[5:51] weren't successful, one of them has complained more about the
[5:53] referees. There's a reason for that.
[5:55] So you can go back to Buddha Seta, you can go back to all all
[5:58] of these periods in history. There will be more of a
[6:01] discourse about referees. And the Gray is obviously the
[6:03] latest and first kind of more kind of evidence based
[6:06] discussion about that. But but yeah, it's, it's
[6:08] something that when it's coming up now, I, I tend to kind of
[6:14] ignore it as much as I can because I, I don't think it's a
[6:16] conversation that goes anywhere right now.
[6:18] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. There's some interesting
[6:22] arguments I haven't looked into fully.
[6:24] Just big disclaimer. I haven't looked into fully, but
[6:27] yeah, there's like people in, there's some interesting
[6:30] writers. There's this one Japanese guy,
[6:32] and then there's this account, the Madrid spot.
[6:34] They're not, they're, they all do feel a little biased
[6:37] sometimes, like they're Real Madrid fans, but there's an
[6:39] argument that the dude on the VAR has a conflict of interest
[6:43] with Barcelona right now. So that's a big thing going
[6:46] around. So the big thing I'm finding
[6:48] with the Negrera stuff, it's not just Negrera, it's just these
[6:50] random little conflicts of interest in Spanish football
[6:53] that are just scattered all over the place that may go far
[6:57] beyond, I mean, May to most, to me, it probably does go far,
[7:01] far, far beyond Negrera, far, far beyond one team.
[7:04] And I think that's what I find interesting.
[7:07] And I understand there's a contradiction between covering
[7:09] these games as if they're real and then talking about this,
[7:12] like especially getting access. I understand there's a big
[7:15] contradiction. So, you know, I don't mean to
[7:16] rope you in, but like, you know, it's funny that like, literally
[7:21] the people talking about this are going to be the ones who
[7:23] don't have any access. It's kind of crazy.
[7:25] Is there anything you have to say about that?
[7:27] The The Nutritionist report or interviews, so to speak.
[7:33] Yeah. No, not just not just a
[7:36] nutritionist, I just mean like, like even if like let's say
[7:39] there's too many conflicts of interest in Spanish football,
[7:42] then like they might be like, hey, you're not coming to
[7:44] Barcelona and associate that. If you want to ask about that at
[7:45] the press conference, like just financial conflicts of interest,
[7:49] not with Barcelona. I mean, with just different
[7:51] owners maybe and people on the VR community, on the referees
[7:54] who financially are tied a little bit randomly in these
[7:58] situations. That's just something I'm, I'm
[8:00] not naming any specifics. I know, but that's just
[8:02] something that a lot of these people in the Madrid trenches
[8:05] who are biased, don't get me wrong, but they do find some of
[8:08] these things and it seems a little more blatant.
[8:10] I'll try and pull it up, but I don't know if you have any
[8:13] thoughts just on like asking around.
[8:15] When it comes to corruption in Spanish football, nobody's done
[8:18] a crazy job and I don't think anyone will like Kelseyopoli.
[8:21] No journalist is going to uncover that before it happens
[8:23] that big. But what are your thoughts?
[8:27] Well, I won't be uncovering it either.
[8:28] There's a news flash. But but I think again, this is
[8:32] kind of we were kind of talking just off before about kind of
[8:35] the maybe the echo chamber, the way that these these things kind
[8:40] of get filtered through between different supports.
[8:42] So I think if you were to dip into kind of Barcelona accounts,
[8:47] Barcelona kind of discourse, then you'll find the exact same
[8:51] things. I mean, I know Tebas hates
[8:54] Florentino Perez, but Tebas is a self declared Real Madrid fan
[8:57] and he's had a head of La Liga. So obviously if you're the
[8:59] Barcelona fan, you pick up on that.
[9:02] I think it's the head of Liga FA or, or one of the kind of
[9:07] refereeing heads for Liga FA is also the wife of Mechia Davila,
[9:11] who's also the Real Madrid kind of delegate.
[9:14] So there's all of these things that I think for me, I think if
[9:19] you, if you're in football, if you're in Spanish football,
[9:22] you're probably going to be a Real Madrid or Barcelona fan to
[9:24] some degree. There's a probably about 6 to
[9:27] 70% chance of that. And you're probably going to
[9:30] have worked for, played with, you're going to have some
[9:33] relationship with the people that are involved, Real Madrid
[9:35] in Boston because they're so all consuming.
[9:36] So for me again, maybe maybe this is just a leap of ease for
[9:41] me that I can just jump into this and say, well, everyone's
[9:44] got these links or everyone as this or I'm going to drop out
[9:47] this conversation until I get verdicts.
[9:49] And perhaps at that point, yeah, you can say that I'm not kind of
[9:53] looking into it enough. But yeah, from my point of view,
[9:56] it's it's so the the the conversation is so thick and
[10:02] dense between the two kind of fan bases that they clash so
[10:05] much that I try to ignore as much as possible and then
[10:09] actually talk about the football, which is, which is in
[10:11] theory what we got into it for. Yeah, yeah, I, I don't think a
[10:16] lot of real metered fans like the angle I come at it from.
[10:18] And I'm, I'm a little bit of a troll sometimes.
[10:21] So that's why I like doing it, because I'm going to be honest.
[10:24] Like I just, I hate complacency. I hate like drinking your own
[10:28] kool-aid. I think self reflection and
[10:31] honestly just, you know, looking in the mirror are very important
[10:34] in society. I think everyone needs more of
[10:35] that. And I think from a real metered
[10:38] perspective, that means not like also questioning all the ways we
[10:42] may have gained favor potentially.
[10:43] And like, that's where, you know, a lot of fans are just
[10:45] like, get out, dude. Like Barcelona cheated us.
[10:47] Like, who are you? You're a fake fan and all that
[10:49] shit comes in. And, and that's precisely why I
[10:52] like doing it not from the angle of a, of a rheometer fan, but
[10:55] more of a trolling the rheometer fan who wants it all to be this
[10:58] ideal story, this fairy tale they have in their head, which
[11:01] life is never that simple. And you know, I'm, I'm also
[11:04] curious, like the fan in me is secondary to the analyst in me.
[11:09] And the analyst just seeks the truth.
[11:10] I just want to know what really went down.
[11:13] And yeah, absolutely. Which is absolutely fair.
[11:15] And I think there's a good account.
[11:17] Well, good. It depends how you look at it,
[11:19] but there's an amusing account called Russo Thrust DSE Ocho in
[11:23] Spanish, the upper 18, which basically is going well realm
[11:27] Jordan, Barcelona. What on earth are you
[11:29] complaining about? Because you 2 are the ones that
[11:31] are getting these decisions, which again, I think we've
[11:33] discussed this before. Like you're, you're kind of
[11:35] watered down in the scale of how big you are as well and what
[11:38] decisions you're going to get. But but yes, and I'm sure
[11:42] there's a there's a caddy fan who's saying, well, Sophia, I
[11:45] don't know what they complain about because they get loads of
[11:47] decisions too. So so depending on what tier you
[11:50] are, where you are, where you come at it from, you're always
[11:53] going to have that kind of perspective.
[11:55] And I think that's that's part of the intrench into tribal
[11:58] nature of football, which is kind of what makes it fun as
[12:00] well. And but with a giant media
[12:03] machine behind both of these clubs, it kind of the
[12:06] mudslinger. It sticks quite a lot.
[12:08] For sure, I think also with the referee things.
[12:11] Last thing I'll say is I think empirical analysis is always
[12:14] more fun and I just see words all the time and it's like,
[12:17] where's the empirical analysis? Like you want to talk 2017 real
[12:21] Byron. I'll, I'll bring up the
[12:22] decisions on both sides. We'll tally it.
[12:24] We'll we'll find a number. And then you have to like look
[12:27] at all the other ties, sample the distribution, all that shit.
[12:29] Go do that. Like it can't be.
[12:31] It's not like 01 bad decision conspiracy.
[12:33] That's some real boneheaded stuff that makes no sense.
[12:37] But yeah, I I agree. And now another reason it's not
[12:40] the fun winter break for Madrid fans, I guess, is that Barcelona
[12:44] are at 46 points and if they win their next one, they're at a 98
[12:48] point pace. Where did that happen out of
[12:51] like, it just kind of came out of nowhere while we've sucked.
[12:54] So I don't know if you have any thoughts there, but they really
[12:57] put it together somehow. Yeah, Barcelona a bit of a weird
[13:00] team this year because I think they're much less impressive
[13:02] than they were last year when they were playing at their kind
[13:06] of peak and inverted commas and, and they were kind of doing the
[13:09] things that they did so well and it looked really, really good.
[13:12] And then you had the other games against kind of Las Palmas, the
[13:15] games that they lost at home where they looked kind of as if
[13:19] this couldn't possibly work. And now I think we're in kind of
[13:21] a bit of an in between stage where Hansy Flick has made some
[13:24] compromises. You don't see it as vertical of
[13:27] Barcelona. And that gets you by about 1617
[13:30] of these La Liga sides, especially when you've got kind
[13:33] of the quality of a learning e-mail or a Fenia.
[13:35] Obviously him returning has been big for them.
[13:37] I think they've now got Juan Garcia and Goals, who I think is
[13:40] a legit game changing goalkeeper.
[13:42] I think that makes a huge difference for them as well.
[13:45] You've seen kind of a difference almost overnight between him and
[13:48] Szesny when when he's kind of come back in and Barcelona have
[13:51] started winning games again. So I think there's a there's a
[13:55] couple of factors there. I think the squad is slightly
[13:59] more used to each other. I think you get the likes of
[14:02] Fermi Lopez, who I think is now an established Barcelona player
[14:06] who can contribute in every game.
[14:07] You get the likes of a Gerard Martin, who even if he's not
[14:10] brilliant is he can contribute. He can have a solid game.
[14:14] And and and you contrast that with kind of last year where it
[14:17] felt like it was all enough and Barcelona were brilliant or they
[14:19] were dreadful. And now we're kind of getting
[14:21] this in between size. And I think the question mark
[14:23] for them is you look at those PSG Chelsea tests that say when,
[14:26] when they do come up against teams of the top level last
[14:29] year, I'd have almost given them.
[14:30] Well, I did give them with more of a chance.
[14:32] They beat by and they beat Madrid to the beat and some big
[14:34] teams on the way. And that was because I think
[14:38] they were playing the things they were doing were were so
[14:41] going so right. That was quite impressive.
[14:43] And now I think they're just a bit more of an in between stage
[14:46] and they've compromised a lot. Yeah.
[14:48] And just pulling up last year's table at this stage and it's
[14:52] just kind of shocking, like everything that's went down
[14:56] these last two years. If you told me how it would
[14:57] happen when Mbappe signed after we won, I'd be like, no, you're
[15:00] shit. Bullshitting from this is
[15:02] ridiculous. So last year Barcelona have 38
[15:06] points from 19 games. This year they have 46 from 18.
[15:09] Football is really funny. Like, it's just really funny the
[15:12] way things work. It makes no sense.
[15:14] And and that that is part of the reason why it's so entertaining
[15:17] is because Mbappe is was kind of not very good for about 6 months
[15:21] last season and Real Madrid were kind of much closer to winning
[15:25] things almost it seemed like. And now he's been really, really
[15:27] good and they look, they look much less of a team.
[15:30] Yeah, it's ridiculous and it it's so ridiculous.
[15:34] And just going to the table this year.
[15:36] So Barcelona are at 37 expected points per Understat.
[15:41] Last year they had more expected points.
[15:43] So and this, it's just ridiculous.
[15:46] And we are well at 34 expected points last year.
[15:48] This year we've gained 5 expected points, 18 games
[15:53] played, 40 points last year. This year we're at 18 games
[15:57] played, 42 points. So we've gotten better, but
[16:01] Barcelona have somehow bullshitted their way to like
[16:04] being there. And what's what's strange is
[16:06] like we've gotten better, but it's like a lot of B plus games
[16:11] and then some really bad games. And with Barcelona, I think it's
[16:14] been like, even though some of their bad games are still B
[16:17] minus, I don't know, maybe they have less like really bad games
[16:19] and but regardless, this is football.
[16:22] Like, you know, sometimes the ball bounces a little
[16:24] differently and I I don't know how much you could say it's down
[16:27] to the ball bouncing, but I guess in our case, I'll pull up
[16:32] the expected goals in a SEC. But you know, the finishing is a
[16:34] big part of it. We're not we're not scoring
[16:36] anything and they're scoring a lot, but that's partly because
[16:39] we're trying to play with hand brakes.
[16:41] So it's all related. What do you think?
[16:44] Is it just finishing? I completely agree.
[16:46] I think if you look at Vinicius, I think Vinicius has played well
[16:49] in some games and poorly and others, but he has missed a lot
[16:52] of chances that you'd expect him to score.
[16:55] I think even if you kind of look at Rodrigo's recent form, he is
[16:59] just finishing some basic chances that should have been
[17:02] finished in previous weeks. And if you look at kind of the
[17:05] the early Madrids this season that were doing very well in
[17:08] terms of results, but perhaps lacking something a little bit
[17:11] in terms of play. You look at a mass Santa Warner
[17:13] who's not going to score loads of goals.
[17:15] An article, he does have a good strike in him but is not kind of
[17:19] a goal scorer per SE. And now you've kind of replaced
[17:22] that with, for example, the Rodrigo in recent games of
[17:24] Bellingham, players that are much more effective in front of
[17:28] goal in theory. But but yeah, it's just it's not
[17:31] quite happening. And I think my big thing,
[17:35] Speaking of compromised fancy flick, my big thing is that it
[17:38] does seem as if shabby Alonso has compromised his system and,
[17:42] and Real Madrid are now kind of trying to adapt to a way, a way
[17:46] of playing that gets Vanessa Zimbabwe the ball in space more
[17:50] often. That gets spilling them into the
[17:51] box more often. And Alonzo's trying to work out
[17:54] how he can still kind of control games or whether he can make
[17:56] that kind of sustainable in terms of what he does without
[17:58] the ball. And they're kind of stuck in an
[18:01] in between stage for me. Yeah.
[18:03] And I'm saying the big thing here is we've scored 36 goals
[18:09] from 45 expected goals. And some of that is probably the
[18:13] way the system is set up to kind of like play more defensively.
[18:18] And so when the chances come, some of the players are
[18:22] snatching at them. But I agree, the personal aren't
[18:25] great. And it's a lot of it is just
[18:27] Florentino choosing to kind of build a team.
[18:31] What's it called? Florentino's just built the team
[18:33] around like commercial opportunities for a long time.
[18:37] And I, I was just going back through some notes I had in 2019
[18:42] and he was signing Brahim Diaz, what we had Hamas Isco and this
[18:46] is what he's been doing for so long.
[18:48] And eventually that adds up and not having a hosel who has
[18:52] killed us. Like if we had hosel, we would
[18:54] probably be leading the table or something like that.
[18:57] If we had that profile, if we used them as well, which is a
[19:00] whole different thing. I don't know, you know, if we
[19:02] signed a hosel with, with Junie Caliphate like object or
[19:05] something. I don't know what's happening.
[19:07] Well, what? Where do you stand on the
[19:09] Gonzalo debate then? Should Gonzalo be getting more
[19:11] minutes, even if it's just for him to stand in the right place?
[19:15] It's complicated because when Trent Alexander Arnold plays,
[19:19] the answer was yes more and I think that's where Alonzo messed
[19:22] up because with Trent, even if Gonzalo touches off, Jude can
[19:27] win the second ball and Gonzalo can pin the center backs like
[19:31] Joselu said he would do for Jude.
[19:33] So for painting alone, unfortunately yes, because like
[19:37] our stars aren't willing to do things like that apparently like
[19:40] like ideally Kieran Abape can do that like everything but the
[19:43] heading like he can occupy 2 center backs at once if he
[19:45] wanted to, but he doesn't want to do that at all.
[19:48] And so that's the issue. So I think Gonzalo should play
[19:52] with Trent now Trent gone, you're not going to cross it.
[19:56] The the chances of even like heading it in are so slim at
[19:59] that point or. The chances of the ball like
[20:02] being delivered in a way where Gonzalo bounces it off a
[20:04] defender and it's in a dangerous area that goes down.
[20:07] So with Gonzalo out, I think Andrick needs to be playing.
[20:10] And Andrick not playing doesn't make too much sense to me.
[20:13] And I think it comes down to the tension caused by Killian and
[20:17] Vinny in some ways. Like Killian doesn't play off
[20:19] the ball and he kind of plays selfishly, but he scores so much
[20:23] you can't take him off. And that affects the dynamics of
[20:26] whoever's on the pitch. And then Vinny, as you know,
[20:29] literally exerted influence on the dressing room, it feels
[20:31] like. And it I don't think he can come
[20:35] off the pitch all the time either.
[20:37] So you put it all together. It's really hard for Alonzo.
[20:40] I get it. But I I don't think Gonzalo
[20:43] Garcia has it just from what I'm seeing, he has no first touch
[20:49] like, and because yeah, yeah, it's problematic.
[20:52] And The thing is for these strikers, the first touch is
[20:55] honestly the only touch sometimes.
[20:56] So it's a big problem, like even for layoffs.
[21:01] I mean, he's nothing like Joselu.
[21:02] And so the the real answer is we need a Joselu or need to just
[21:06] play Enrique more. And again, a smarter club thinks
[21:09] about these things. But here we're like, hey, Jabi,
[21:11] you like Garcia, go for it. And then if Jabi's like, hey, I
[21:13] don't love Garcia, then Florentino and Jose Angelo
[21:17] Sanchez have a convo. And it feels like Jose Angelo
[21:20] Sanchez gets his way for a few convos and then eventually Perez
[21:23] gets mad. He's like, all right, get out of
[21:24] my face, Jose. Like, like I'm I'm calling Marsa
[21:27] telling them to exert factor in the dressing room, like what's
[21:29] going on? So that's my understanding that
[21:32] there's been a little bit of a disconnect between Jose Angel
[21:34] Sanchez and Florentino Florentino views like buying
[21:38] someone that Jose Angel and Alonzo wants perhaps as like a
[21:42] chore or like, and this goes back years, by the way.
[21:45] So apparently like, like Zagar wanted Pogba when he came back
[21:49] and he wanted a lot of different pieces and he didn't get all of
[21:52] them. But the pressure was exerted
[21:54] because they're like, hey, we got you for land Mendy, go go
[21:57] win titles. That's how they think.
[21:59] Which, to be fair, Angelotti did go and then do Amsterdam to to
[22:03] degree as well. Yeah.
[22:04] Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I mean, Zidane had to deal with
[22:06] the fallout of Hazard and had to try and rehabilitate him.
[22:09] By the time Carlos here, that whole monkey was off everyone's
[22:12] back. I don't think it's fair to
[22:14] accept Zidane to Usher and Vinicius without trying Hazard
[22:18] like you. You got to start Hazard against
[22:21] two close, Chelsea against perhaps like you.
[22:23] You, you paid for this guy. You bet.
[22:25] You staked your career on him, and I think it's not.
[22:28] Florentino probably Aki for as well.
[22:31] Yeah, at the time, I don't think Florentino was against it, but I
[22:33] think the the Jovic and Mendy signings and Militao, those were
[22:37] the ones he's like win me titles if you want these guys.
[22:40] Yeah. Anything going outside the big
[22:44] two? Speaking of the other 18
[22:46] anything I I know it hasn't been a great year in Europe for most
[22:50] of us or any of us. Villa Rio having one of the
[22:53] worst showings in Europe for a while.
[22:56] Yeah, how how's it going? Any major stories outside?
[22:59] I guess, well, optimism here for Real Madrid fans, the big story
[23:03] is Espanol, who are very much in kind of a Champions League race
[23:07] almost. And that is Barcelona's next
[23:09] game. Just off the back of the break,
[23:11] the Catalan Darby, I think Manolo Gonzalez has been working
[23:15] medicals. So for people that aren't really
[23:17] familiar with this guy was kind of the trope is that he was the
[23:21] bus driver and he was driving buses for a while.
[23:23] But I think it's something that he's trying, trying to get away
[23:26] from. But he does kind of look like he
[23:28] could drive a bus as well quite effectively.
[23:30] But yes, anyway, so he spent kind of years and years down in
[23:33] kind of lower divisions of Catalan football, kind of 3rd,
[23:35] 4th tier, doing quite a good job, but eventually gets the
[23:39] Espanol B team job about 3 months before they get promoted.
[23:42] He somehow kind of directs them through the promotion playoffs,
[23:46] gets them promoted. They survived by the skin in
[23:48] their teeth last year, which people will be more familiar
[23:50] with pretty much off the back of Juan Garcia being an absolute
[23:53] medical worker. And then this season he's he's
[23:57] been given some pieces, he's in the First Division and he now
[24:00] has kind of options and what he's been kind of doing with
[24:03] this Espanol squad who built as well with the assistance of Fran
[24:07] Garagafa, who's the sporting director.
[24:10] And he was in charge of Ibar during their kind of 7-8 year
[24:13] run in La Liga, where they were very successful too.
[24:15] So they've built this kind of squad, which is very useful that
[24:18] has a lot of different weapons. And if if even Real Madrid fans
[24:21] think back to their two nil win over to Espanol, it's like a 35
[24:26] yard screamer from from military that breaks the deadlock in that
[24:30] game. Then there's one from Mbappe
[24:31] shortly after and that kind of finishes it.
[24:33] But this Espanol side of both good and smart in the way that
[24:37] they go about things, they're, they're really, I, I find them
[24:40] really entertaining to watch because I think you can, they
[24:42] can turn up and play in a four or five different games and
[24:45] they're always aggressive and they're always competitive.
[24:48] Yeah, yeah, I, I remember Espanol when we were trying to
[24:52] give that as an example of a decent team we beat because
[24:55] everyone's like, you beat nobody.
[24:57] Then he was right to change the tactics.
[24:58] There's that whole thing going on and hey, we beat Espanol, we
[25:02] beat Marseille, and they were listening.
[25:03] And then look what happened, is what I say.
[25:05] But yeah, I mean, I see there's a funny headline from All Aboard
[25:09] from Manolo Gonzalez's Espanol adventure from bus driver to top
[25:13] coach. No, that's cool.
[25:15] I mean, reminds me of Mauricio Osari, the banker from a few
[25:18] years ago. You know, coaching in coaching
[25:21] in football is so interesting. I've just been thinking, you
[25:23] know, that do this show and even contemplate the existence of the
[25:26] show. Like it's such a niche, esoteric
[25:29] thing, almost like it's really niche.
[25:32] Not many people are good at it. And it requires so much self
[25:36] belief. And and they also just make them
[25:39] like they print them like iPhones in a factory in Spain.
[25:42] But there's also that, like, I think this was the first time
[25:46] hurry that the Premier League's top three had been coached by
[25:49] Spanish managers that was put out recently.
[25:52] Arteta, Emery, Guardiola, any any any words on Spanish
[25:56] coaching culture and everything, anything going on here?
[25:59] Yeah. I mean, well, I think Spanish
[26:02] football is just very, very rich in many senses.
[26:04] I think there's there's actually if you look across kind of
[26:07] Europe, there's very few countries that have as much buy
[26:09] in to football as Spain does. I mean a lot of other countries
[26:14] and I know Spain likes it's basketball and it does some
[26:16] other sports. But most of these other
[26:18] countries, your Frances, your Germany's have quite a division
[26:21] and Germany's probably the other one where you kind of have the
[26:23] strongest coaching school. And I think once Spain kind of
[26:28] put in place a kind of infrastructure, a way of kind of
[26:32] getting these coaches through and kind of educating them, the
[26:36] culture in Spain makes it very easy for these people to become
[26:38] obsessed and to kind of dedicate their lives to it.
[26:41] And, and as you were saying, kind of being kind of a very
[26:45] almost kind of nihilistic sport in some ways, because I mean,
[26:50] Manolo Gonzalez getting this option, it was a complete
[26:52] accident. There was no rhyme or reason
[26:55] behind him getting that job as opposed to somebody else not
[26:58] doing that as well and him being kind of the person that was
[27:00] there to just kind of hand it over to.
[27:03] And and so if he doesn't get that chance, he probably spends
[27:05] the rest of his career in a kind of 3rd, 4th tiers of Spanish
[27:08] football. Maybe not.
[27:09] Maybe he rises to the top and the Queen does.
[27:12] I increasingly of the view that I think your opportunities are
[27:16] so kind of freshest and and if you kind of throw a footballer
[27:21] or a manager one job, their career can change completely.
[27:25] Look at hostile who I think it's probably been the same striker
[27:29] for a kind of fight the back kind of 5-6 years of his career,
[27:33] but just got given that opportunity at Real Madrid on a
[27:36] Champions League made the difference, but was probably a
[27:39] similar type of player. I don't think he was much worse
[27:42] or better at Aloez 2-3 years before that.
[27:44] So, So yeah, I think it is interesting the way that these
[27:47] opportunities about and where people get their brakes.
[27:50] Yeah, yeah. Now Hustler was a good, good
[27:53] example for sure. I think the ideally like more
[27:57] top teams should look at that utility 9 who's like a mid table
[28:01] like starter who can easily be a utility 9 off the bench but.
[28:05] Levandoski kind of figure. Yeah, yeah, well, if you can
[28:09] convince someone to like, like be like old Lewandowski or
[28:12] Hoselu in their prime, that's the hard part, right?
[28:14] These young players, but I mean, hey, I would totally take more
[28:18] money to like sit on the week, bench every other week and have
[28:21] a higher impact if I were in my prime, especially with the 60
[28:24] games they play now. Like I wouldn't even want to be
[28:26] a starter as much as I would like you're you're more likely
[28:30] to get injured if you end up being a starter.
[28:32] It's like if you play on the bench, if you ride the bench a
[28:34] couple years like Griezmann at Barcelona with that whole 90
[28:37] minute thing, you might get a a good World Cup out of it out of
[28:39] nowhere. So what you're saying is you
[28:41] have the mentality of Dennis values?
[28:43] OK, well. So I I didn't make some sling at
[28:47] all. Now, now I now I'm now you're
[28:49] having to be thinking anything I just said.
[28:50] Now you made me feel like Danny said.
[28:53] It's funny because I was just reading.
[28:55] I think Sabayo's being signed was like the first nail in the
[28:58] coffin when Zidane got kind of pissed off with the board back
[29:01] then because that was also just the first of just fucking
[29:05] around. Like we won and then he just
[29:07] signed Sabayo's coverage and survivors like rot for one year
[29:09] don't get anything going. And like there were so many
[29:13] things that would work better. Like maybe if you put a little
[29:15] more effort to convince Mbappe to join or something back then
[29:18] instead of signing your projects and then just telling the coach
[29:21] to figure it out. But regarding Spain though, find
[29:24] that super interesting. Like the culture thing you
[29:26] mentioned in general, I agree that the pipelines for football
[29:30] to like in general, there's a lot of untapped passion in
[29:33] football because it's just one of those things where even if
[29:36] someone's in poverty or doesn't have money, they might be able
[29:40] to generate a disproportionate amount of passion towards
[29:43] football, even if it doesn't come towards anything else, just
[29:45] because football's like that. And, and therefore I think
[29:49] there's more passionate minds, more players.
[29:53] I'm not sure. I think the pipeline kind of
[29:55] figures it out because like the way genetics and athleticism
[29:58] works, like the cream will rise, but with the minds, it's a lot
[30:02] more of like, do these owners know how to find the right
[30:06] people, give them the right trust and put them in the right
[30:08] position? Like you said with the hose
[30:10] rule, but not even the hose rule, even with Alonzo, as we
[30:12] see at Madrid. How many of these coaches and
[30:14] these systems are actually designed like the way Pat
[30:18] designs A-Team where it's all personalized for each player?
[30:22] Most organizations do not go about all the other positions in
[30:25] the organization with anywhere near that fluidity.
[30:27] And but that's where I find Spain fascinating in the
[30:30] cultural differences because clearly something's happened
[30:33] where the coaching talent has spilled over.
[30:35] Like they've they found a pipeline, they found a way to
[30:38] pull it from the grass roots somewhere.
[30:41] And and I guess to go to the grass.
[30:43] The thing you were saying about culture, like I like when I went
[30:46] to the UK, it did feel, I, I guess cricket is there, but like
[30:50] it felt pretty football obsessed.
[30:51] It felt like if you're in a given town, like all they want
[30:54] to do is go out to the bar and scream and support their team
[30:57] every weekend. So what's, I mean, what's the
[31:00] big difference? Is it like, is there more Spain
[31:02] so they can take the books out and like coach a little more?
[31:04] Whereas in England they're drinking more and just playing.
[31:07] It's a, it's a good question. I mean, yeah, I'm wary of making
[31:12] sweeping statements on the entire culture of of kind of
[31:14] countries. But I would say, I guess one of
[31:17] the things in Spain you have is you have quite a proud kind of
[31:21] regional football culture as well.
[31:22] So I think you do get these clubs or these teams kind of
[31:26] coming up against each other and you have within Madrid, you've
[31:29] got kind of 5-6 professional clubs.
[31:31] You've got kind of these very high level kind of boys clubs
[31:35] and stuff or girls clubs and they're kind of competing
[31:38] against each other. And then that's your kind of
[31:40] regional competition and that's probably quite intense.
[31:42] And then you go to Galicia and you have Deportivo and South of
[31:45] Ego, who are two institutions in their own right.
[31:48] You've got kind of the this kind of competition, this kind of
[31:51] intense kind of combing for talent.
[31:53] Then you go to the Basque Country and you've got kind of,
[31:56] we know the production that the Basque Country is kind of
[31:58] putting out right now. So you've got all these
[31:59] different regions that are organized regionally and then
[32:02] compete nationally. And I guess maybe that makes
[32:05] something of a difference because if you look at maybe the
[32:07] UK where or England, certainly where much of the talent bases,
[32:11] a lot of it comes out of London. And that's probably because you
[32:14] have that kind of rivalry and that kind of London, but a kind
[32:17] of competition where these kind of smaller areas kind of compete
[32:20] against each other. Again, I have no idea if this is
[32:23] cause or or coincidence or or that kind of thing.
[32:26] Correlate. I don't know if there's any
[32:27] correlation. But I guess if you're looking
[32:29] asking me to kind of look at it and say why, why is this
[32:32] happening or what's the difference?
[32:35] I guess maybe that's something that does come into it.
[32:38] Yeah, yeah, totally. And I don't think anyone has, I
[32:41] don't know if anyone has a clear cut and dry answer.
[32:43] So I should say it's anyone listening.
[32:44] We're just kind of exploring here, curious because.
[32:47] This is spit bowling at its very spittest level, but.
[32:50] Well, I've always been curious just because there's no question
[32:53] that Spanish coaching culture and Spanish midfielder
[32:57] production have differentiated themselves.
[33:00] It's like a national niching in within a sport.
[33:03] It's like, as we always say, like they don't make midfielders
[33:07] like they do in Spain. And even though the best
[33:09] midfielders at Madrid were German and Croatian, they were
[33:12] Spanish in the way they played. And and, and that see, that's
[33:16] the thing. You, you know, it's Spanish and
[33:18] it's, it's not like even the language anymore.
[33:21] It's like a way of moving on the pitch, which is so interesting
[33:23] to me. It's cultural in that sense.
[33:25] And like just, and I, I've started really picking up on it
[33:28] this season 'cause we don't have it anymore on our team.
[33:31] Like, like, like the, the act of like, 'cause I even when I like,
[33:36] I don't play many games, but I try to like copy the act of
[33:39] scanning, taking a touch, dragging the midfield, like all
[33:43] those subtle things, weird nerdy things.
[33:45] Like I pay attention to them all the time.
[33:46] Like 'cause they teach those in Spain and I don't know how to
[33:49] say it, but like every sequence in football done by a top team
[33:53] is like involving unlocking the defense like way before.
[33:56] And it all starts from this, these Spanish moves of pausa.
[33:59] Pausa dictates football at every level.
[34:01] Now I can't Unsee it. And, and it's not just pausa,
[34:05] but then you have the coaches on top of that.
[34:08] And some of them are quite different, like Unai Emery is
[34:10] very different to Arteta, to Guardiola.
[34:13] But they all succeed in mathematically analyzing the
[34:16] parameters within which they can implement their styles and
[34:20] successfully implementing them in a way where they actually
[34:22] work. And so those are two different
[34:25] things. Like coaching is a very
[34:27] different niche skill than playing.
[34:28] And that's why I'm so curious culturally because I wonder if
[34:32] it comes down to like what I envision is this like out in
[34:36] America, you know, people play baseball, they play the NFL,
[34:39] maybe the UK. I feel like fan culture is big
[34:42] in the UK. I should say maybe that's a
[34:43] different. I just feel like when I was in
[34:45] Scotland, I didn't feel any of that organized grassroots at the
[34:50] top. It's like the Scottish tree
[34:51] feels very different to the English tree of football or the
[34:54] Welsh or the Irish. And whereas, and so maybe the
[34:58] fan culture dominates. Maybe in Spain it's more like,
[35:01] you know, when the kids are done with school and they play the
[35:04] dads like, hey, no, like passing triangles or I don't know, like
[35:06] is it, is it ingrained in the culture where you see a correct
[35:09] way to play or something? It's.
[35:11] Kind of interesting because, and this is completely anecdotal
[35:14] from kind of my experience, but for example, as you say,
[35:17] Scotland, which I will proudly say has the highest kind of
[35:21] attendance per capita. So like based in Europe, part of
[35:25] population, Scotland has the best attendance in Europe.
[35:27] So the passion is clearly that Scotland is a small country even
[35:32] with the last kind of 10-15 years.
[35:35] So every friend who used to play for Hearts, which are one of the
[35:38] kind of the main teams in Scotland and they when they were
[35:42] kind of coming through the Academy there, they were kind of
[35:44] being shown these videos of at the time Guardiola's Barcelona.
[35:48] They were being shown kind of Swansea City at the time.
[35:50] Under must have been Roberto Martinez or Michelle or someone.
[35:54] But they were being shown these kind of videos.
[35:56] And I think there was definitely a movement to kind of play more
[35:59] football, to play a different style of football, to keep
[36:02] control of the ball. You see that in a player like
[36:04] Billy Gilmore who who's obviously come through and now
[36:07] at Napoli doing very well. But Even so, the complete kind
[36:12] of attitudes shift from the way that other teams play.
[36:15] I mean, if you get the ball in Scotland in midfield, you have
[36:18] at some total of about 0.0 or two seconds to kind of get rid
[36:22] of it again before somebody is kind of on you.
[36:25] And I think, I don't know if it's maybe something in the
[36:28] culture of other players understanding when they have to
[36:31] offer for the ball or players being able to escape that kind
[36:34] of pressure so swiftly that you can't kind of press like that.
[36:39] Whereas at least in Scotland, at least my anecdotal experience of
[36:41] it was that there, there was just no time or space to do
[36:44] that. And I think maybe it's the
[36:46] technical quality, the technical quality to be able to execute
[36:48] that pass, to be able to kind of understand when the player is
[36:52] coming, where they're coming from and where the where the
[36:54] space is. But but yeah, from my point of
[36:57] view, I think yes, Spanish football, they do just seem to
[37:00] have an understanding kind of nationwide of of the time and
[37:04] the space and and where where to kind of exploit it I guess.
[37:08] Yeah, and I think it comes from an understanding of like the
[37:12] like Spain just feels like they understand the end game of
[37:14] football really well, which is like eventually everyone becomes
[37:18] skilled, everyone becomes athletic and everyone man marks
[37:21] all over the pitch and you need the best combo of everything to
[37:25] win. Whereas in England they
[37:27] suffocate you so much. The idea of being able to be a
[37:30] wizard itself is a little alien. So at the grass root levels, I
[37:34] just feel like it's discouraged. Like you're kind of called the
[37:37] clown for dribbling. Like it's all about power,
[37:41] crunching tackles and energy. But with that being said, I just
[37:44] find it interesting. Like you get to a point where
[37:47] all these players are essentially Wizards with the
[37:50] ball. And frankly, like all these
[37:52] Spanish things are the only difference in some of these
[37:55] games. Like it's the entire difference.
[37:57] Like like one guy being able to hold it up slightly better,
[38:01] turning what is normally just a tough one V1 where you struggle
[38:04] to keep the ball into a situation of security.
[38:08] Like that's the whole game. And the moments of security
[38:10] where your team can kind of move and take advantage of the fact
[38:14] that one player has a ball. Those are the moments where
[38:16] everything happens. And that's why we're struggling
[38:18] really. Like we just don't have moments
[38:20] of like receiving, turning, facing goal with time.
[38:23] That doesn't happen. That literally doesn't happen.
[38:26] And I think in England there's a belief that you can win through
[38:29] heart, through running, but and and you can win one off games
[38:32] that way. But there it's fundamentally
[38:34] impossible to compete without that wizarding ability, in my
[38:38] opinion of turn be able to kind of attract markers and really
[38:43] just be able to draw double teams into zonal spaces by like
[38:48] through misdirection, by driving to carrying, by looking
[38:51] somewhere. And all those things just seem
[38:53] alien to most parts of the world.
[38:56] But to be fair, I think also at this kind of level where you got
[38:59] Real Madrid in Barcelona or, or kind of, yeah, these top teams,
[39:02] essentially you want it to be a mesh of that.
[39:04] You want it to be kind of a blend because if you look at
[39:08] where Barcelona have been successful the last kind of 18
[39:10] months, it's it's based on the fact that your your pet trees
[39:14] or, or whoever has the ball, they have that outlet of a
[39:18] ruffina to kind of move and, and make those runs for them to kind
[39:21] of open up that space. If you look at the way that
[39:23] Bellingham was really successful in that first season, we talked
[39:25] about Hoslu and the kind of double tandem, the tandem that
[39:28] they had kind of going. Bellingham made the difference
[39:32] because he had both kind of the heart, the desire and the
[39:34] understanding of where he had to be positionally, but also that
[39:36] kind of desire to kind of bomb into the box faster, better,
[39:41] more kind of with more desire than anyone else.
[39:43] So I think these players, they do have their kind of their
[39:47] niches and obviously want to kind of exploit that in the best
[39:49] way you can. And especially as well, I think
[39:52] Rashford's quite an interesting one because Rashford's always a
[39:54] player who got the ball in space and was told to kind of go at
[39:58] goal and you will have the ball in space.
[40:00] We just need to get it to you, that kind of thing.
[40:02] Your shot is your kind of your, your magic power, your wizardry,
[40:05] so to speak. Now he's playing for for
[40:07] Barcelona side that will face a lot more deeper defence and even
[40:10] within a kind of handsy flick side, that theory is more
[40:13] direct. You see Rashford kind of trying
[40:15] trying to kind of learn and to assimilate into that kind of
[40:18] style of game and having the kind of understanding of when to
[40:21] go, when to kind of hold it, which run to make that kind of
[40:24] thing. So.
[40:25] I think that style of football, even if it's not kind of perfect
[40:29] at a young age, presumably there are Spanish footballers that are
[40:33] picking up the ball, Alan Modrich with and doing the
[40:36] things that Modrich is doing, doing at the top level very
[40:39] slowly at the age of 7. But by the time they're 12,
[40:42] they've learned how to do that very quickly.
[40:44] And presumably maybe that's the difference where you get those
[40:47] kind of as compared to kind of, I don't know, in English
[40:51] football or in Scottish football, those players are
[40:53] always having to give the ball quickly.
[40:55] So when they they don't, they don't kind of, it doesn't come
[40:58] into their brain to kind of turn or to, to have that kind of
[41:00] extra ability to turn away because they've not been doing
[41:02] it slowly. So they can't do it fast.
[41:04] Yeah, Yeah, The most English Barcelona player in that sense
[41:09] is Gabby. Like just has that balance.
[41:11] And yeah, Jude versus Pedry, sometimes people point to
[41:14] height. I think they'll always be
[41:16] different players because Pedry clearly, like, grew up doing a
[41:19] thing a certain way and learning to like, bend the defense.
[41:22] Jude grew up like being a star in like a more English world and
[41:26] Jude grew up in the modern English system, which tries to
[41:29] coach players to be more Spanish.
[41:30] That's where Elliot Anderson, Adam Wharton, they wouldn't
[41:33] exist if if England hadn't like copied Spain.
[41:36] Even Jude won't exist, honestly, if England hadn't copied Spain,
[41:39] I don't think. But the gap is still there.
[41:42] And it's just so noticeable when Rodri comes off for Super Mendi
[41:45] and you just walk over England in the final.
[41:47] England don't have anyone like that.
[41:48] That was, I think that that was a watershed moment.
[41:51] It's like you've evolved like because a lot of people on the
[41:54] English side have been tracking this and they're like, we need
[41:56] to evolve all that evolution just for the backup 6 to come in
[42:00] for the Bolland or winner and just like walk you off the park.
[42:02] While like your best sequence comes when Jude who went to
[42:06] Spain like tries everything. But like he had some good
[42:09] sequences that EUR, even if he was stale.
[42:11] I thought he had a couple Spanish sequences occasionally.
[42:15] Like just because that it's kind of antithetical to just how
[42:18] England played. That's why I'm excited to see
[42:20] what Tuco does with England because I feel like he has a
[42:24] very good understanding of like how to, I just think he
[42:28] understands football well in terms of like he's too good for
[42:32] international football. So his quality level is well
[42:35] above what we're used to there. So like De La Fuente, like
[42:39] that's a real match up now. Like De La Fuente is too good,
[42:41] but like he's going to look like against someone like Tuco, he's
[42:45] just another tactician because these club coaches are so much
[42:48] better. But just on Spain, quick note, I
[42:51] wonder if it's almost like like general, my understanding is
[42:54] football's viewed as like a workman's sport in a lot of
[42:56] parts of the world. But I wonder it just feels like
[42:59] in Spain, even outside Barcelona, if it's just viewed
[43:02] as like an aesthetic thing to enjoy with a glass of wine, like
[43:05] a cinema almost. It just feels like it feels more
[43:08] like a movie, like a poem. Whereas in other parts of the
[43:11] world, it's like you roll up your sleeves and you get to work
[43:14] like you're like you're no matter where you are, you can
[43:17] roll up your sleeves and go man, mark your man and go win the
[43:20] ball. It's just a different way of
[43:23] thinking. And I think Germany also leans
[43:25] very much into that. And I will say the only thing
[43:28] I'll say on the flip is I do think Spain under its off ball
[43:31] movement and I do think Cristiano Ronaldo's legacy has
[43:35] been doubt damaged by people who view things very ball centric
[43:39] over the years just 'cause I mean, like we're all about off
[43:43] problem. I think Baron and Ronaldo are
[43:44] very non Spanish players and that's what makes that era
[43:47] special for us. It's like we've combined the
[43:49] Spanish with these aliens and we won.
[43:51] But yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
[43:55] Like do Spain, do Spain, do they view it more as like a movie or
[43:58] TV show that's meant to be enjoyed with the plot and drama,
[44:01] not just like a not just a game, it's.
[44:04] Interesting. Again, I would kind of that kind
[44:07] of fall on that kind of regional aspect of it, because I think if
[44:09] you go to the Basque Country, I mean they're always kind of
[44:12] dubbed as kind of this more English approach to, to
[44:15] football. And I think you do get a lot
[44:17] more of that if you go to kind of Donostia, If you go to to
[44:21] Bilbao, you will see Sam Mamez kind of cheat on their their
[44:25] footballs and try and kind of will the ball in kind of almost.
[44:28] Whereas if you go to Bernabeu, it's much more what can you do
[44:31] for me today kind of thing kind of approach.
[44:33] If you go to town now, it's the same.
[44:34] It's entertain me and then I'll kind of give you kind of your,
[44:37] your plaudits and that kind of thing.
[44:39] So yeah, I I think the each each of these reasons has kind of
[44:44] almost. These.
[44:45] Different approaches or different kind of?
[44:47] Wait, so the approach, the approach matters?
[44:49] You're saying like they go by, they take it partly for the
[44:52] approach. It's like, it's like watching an
[44:54] art house movie. You don't, you watch it because
[44:55] it's art house. You don't.
[44:56] You don't watch it just for the sake of watching a movie, Right?
[44:59] Yeah, No. Absolutely.
[45:00] But I, I, yeah, I don't know. I think if you each region is
[45:05] kind of fundamentally Spanish to a degree.
[45:07] So for instance, Subi Mendi is that second six and he's still
[45:10] come out fast football because fundamentally he's still part of
[45:14] Spanish football. But here he exists within kind
[45:17] of a bit, a bit more of a blood and Thunder kind of game or kind
[45:21] of system or, or style of football.
[45:24] Then that said, I, I think kind of if you're looking at it kind
[45:28] of from a more macro level in terms of international teams as
[45:30] well, I think the international teams that can really tap into
[45:33] their personality are the ones that are successful.
[45:35] So Spain has tapped into the kind of ball playing control,
[45:39] that idea that we keep the ball, we probe, we find a way through,
[45:43] even if Telefonte's kind of eased up on that a bit and gone
[45:45] a bit more direct, which is an interesting, I'll get your
[45:48] thoughts on that. Second, an interesting question
[45:50] for the future. But if you look at Italy, Italy
[45:52] for the longest time was kind of renowned for these kind of hard
[45:56] man defenders, people that would get in your face that would find
[45:59] a way to kind of nip away at you to put your off your game to to
[46:03] position themselves in a way that you couldn't function
[46:05] properly. It was all about kind of
[46:07] disturbing what you were doing. And that was their personality.
[46:10] And it worked for them because even though they had kind of
[46:12] very talented players, you had kind of tortis, you had your
[46:15] pillos, you had this kind of fundamental basis of Vino
[46:18] Gattuso, of Matarazzi, of kind of Keilini kind of arrow players
[46:24] that were good at kind of stopping you from playing.
[46:27] And that kind of somewhere in Italian culture or in Italian
[46:31] football that kind of hit on something.
[46:34] I think with Spain that hit, I think if you look at this
[46:36] Argentina side, which was blessed with a lot of quality
[46:39] and magic, it was also probably the side that was most blood and
[46:42] Thunder, most kind of we're going to die for the shirts.
[46:45] The one that won the World Cup is that's the side that's been
[46:48] most like that. If you look at, I mean, Rodrigo
[46:51] De Paul is not the best midfielder that Argentina
[46:53] produced in the last 20 years, but he was also Messi's
[46:56] bodyguard. And for some reason that kind of
[46:57] that kind of worked. So, yeah, like I think tapping
[47:01] into your personality and finding a way to kind of adapt
[47:04] to your players. And I don't know what you think
[47:06] about kind of de la Fuente, because I think Luis Enriquez
[47:09] started it but didn't quite manage to pull it off.
[47:12] I think Della Fuente is kind of this generation of Spanish
[47:15] managers that are a little bit more direct.
[47:16] Della Fuente, incidentally, who did play for Athletic.
[47:19] So he is kind of a, he does have that kind of vast mindset too.
[47:22] So yeah, I don't know if you think Spain is going to go more
[47:25] direct and if that might kind of harm them long term almost in
[47:28] terms of their production of those midfielders.
[47:31] Well, that's what I think is interesting because the game has
[47:35] changed so much and Spain has stayed true to themselves and
[47:38] won. I don't know if that will I
[47:40] think that will just make them double down because you're still
[47:43] not getting any strikers out of Spain.
[47:45] The wingers are OK up and down like you get Yamal and Nico, but
[47:48] like that's two you're you don't have like France where a new one
[47:51] spawns like every tournament. Like yeah, so it's not like
[47:55] that. So that's what's interesting.
[47:58] But the the midfield is like like I I know it's going to
[48:01] happen, but for it to keep happening is crazy.
[48:03] Like you have, you have guys who don't make the national team who
[48:06] like these other teams would kill for us just just for some
[48:10] oxygen on the pitch. And so I don't think the style
[48:13] will die. I think what de la Fuente does
[48:15] is separate. I think you just have to evolve
[48:18] the national team sometimes. And I mean, teams know that
[48:22] Spain are good at controlling the ball.
[48:23] So they're just going to put more pressure on the ball.
[48:25] And you know, I've tried to run into simulations a bunch of
[48:29] times when the pressure goes up, at some point, you have to learn
[48:31] to just play through a little faster or you're going to get
[48:33] caught on your feet. I think that's what you might be
[48:35] doing. It could be just because like
[48:38] you can't try to slow down beyond a certain point, I should
[48:41] say. And I think teams know now that
[48:43] if you let Spain play at their own pace, you're screwed.
[48:46] It's there's just no point. They will pick you apart.
[48:48] So looking at the results though, I mean, to be honest,
[48:52] like outside that Turkey game and there was the Nations League
[48:57] game, I guess where they kind of gave it up defensively.
[49:00] Well, the dishes of the game, I'll say this, you're going up
[49:02] against Victinia, Gerald Nevez, like Nuna Mendez.
[49:05] It's really hard when you when you play the same archetype in
[49:10] the mirror, it's just hard to win, man.
[49:12] I will say that so. Our team is the one that Spain
[49:15] would maybe be like. Maybe he would get our team.
[49:17] Yeah, yeah. And and Nevez and Nuna Mendez as
[49:20] well would be phenomenal. So I think I think with that,
[49:24] that's more of De la Fuente just kind of having to like with all
[49:28] coaches who are on the same team.
[49:30] I think you can't win the same way every year again and again.
[49:34] Even look at Guardiola at City, he he really has changed a lot
[49:37] over time. You can't keep running the same
[49:40] way. And even Guardiola said like
[49:41] when he played us, it's really hard to beat Real Madrid playing
[49:44] the same way two years in a row, just playing Carlos.
[49:46] So repetition is challenging. And I think I'm curious to see
[49:50] how long the left one take keeps it going.
[49:52] I do think he also benefited from Enrique.
[49:54] So I think now we find out what he's really made out of more
[49:58] than anything because like honestly taking over from
[50:01] Enrique and tweaking things is easier than like keeping that
[50:04] going 3-4 years in much harder. And also just the thing on what
[50:08] you said culturally, I guess we should close out.
[50:10] See this is what happens when you have a fun condo.
[50:12] It draws a little longer when it's not a political at all.
[50:15] I was just, I feel what you said about the Italians and like I've
[50:19] been, I do, my understanding is like Italian family culture is
[50:22] like a little unique even into Europe and by understanding and
[50:25] just the way just from my understanding experience
[50:28] interacting with them. And I just wonder how much I do
[50:31] feel like the defense is rooted culturally even beyond football.
[50:34] And I'm always that fascinated and just finding the very origin
[50:38] because like it's just a cool way to understand the story and
[50:41] definitely something I'm going to look into.
[50:43] And I think part of it could be, I don't know when, like maybe
[50:46] the rise of football related to wartime back in the 20th
[50:49] century. I feel like a lot of these
[50:50] things have roots in the 20th century.
[50:53] And but what's fascinating is that as the game globalizes,
[50:56] some of these things stay the same.
[50:57] That's what I find fun because really the globalization now
[51:01] places lose some of their flavor and uniqueness.
[51:03] And so to see uniqueness stay the same through institutions in
[51:07] football, at the international level, just find it fascinating.
[51:10] Like what's going on that keeps the Spanish midfielder turning
[51:13] that way, the Italian defender clearing the ball every time he
[51:16] can look. It's it, it runs deep, man.
[51:20] And, and I and the world has changed a lot, like
[51:22] globalization has changed so much.
[51:23] We all read the same thing, We watch the same things.
[51:26] So fundamentally like these things that are different.
[51:28] I always find it fascinating. And the four big four that are
[51:32] super interesting are Spain, Germany, Germany, obviously with
[51:35] the speed and the up and down, the Gigen pressing, Italy with
[51:38] the Catanaccio, Spain with the playmaking and England just I
[51:42] would say this, England feels just a little anti Spain
[51:45] sometimes. And this is the way they
[51:47] approach the game. Because traditionally,
[51:48] historically, you think England, France are kind of a dichotomy,
[51:51] rivals next to each other. But in the football sense,
[51:54] France doesn't seem to have a identity, I would argue because
[51:58] what France's identity seems to be, there's so many people
[52:01] who've come there, so many people in Paris, like their
[52:03] identity's Paris the same way England seems to be London.
[52:06] Like just talent everywhere, More talent, globalized talent,
[52:10] people from all parts of the world.
[52:11] So you get exotic genetics you can't get anywhere else and
[52:14] endless talent that they just don't get in Germany, in Spain.
[52:17] Like the volume is just there. But yeah, those are the four I
[52:21] find fascinating, I guess. Any thoughts maybe on France?
[52:23] Like they don't, they don't have a style, you know, Even French
[52:26] coaches are not taking it seriously.
[52:27] Outside Zadan, they're not seen as a coaching place at all, for
[52:30] example. Yeah.
[52:31] And I think it's interesting because if you go back to 1998,
[52:35] that France team that won the World Cup had a lot of talent,
[52:38] but they also had Stefan Givash, who was that kind of Giroud
[52:43] figure who who didn't score in that tournament.
[52:45] But they did kind of do it's job and kind of allowed the players
[52:48] to play off him. He had kind of a quite a
[52:52] defensive midfield. I know you had Sedan in there as
[52:54] well, but you had kind of Emmanuel Petit and you had Jerk
[52:58] AF playing kind of on the right, which kind of throws me back to
[53:01] kind of like Blaze Matt Weedy playing on the wing or Musa Soko
[53:04] playing on the wing for France. Kanti and Michael Lele as well,
[53:06] like you always have their defensive role players out
[53:09] there. Yeah, so, and obviously it's
[53:13] Dechamps who was also kind of in that team.
[53:16] Dechamps was the one coaching that 2018 team as well.
[53:19] So yeah, they don't have kind of a clear kind of identity all the
[53:22] way through. But if you look at their
[53:24] success, I mean, maybe it's just 'cause it's Dechamps and he's
[53:26] just kind of done. Well, I've got the recipe and it
[53:28] it's worked for me before. I'll do it again, that kind of
[53:30] thing. But but yeah, France are an
[53:32] interesting one. I also find Germany fascinating
[53:34] because the way that they won that 2014 was so much more Spain
[53:39] and I think, I think I was influenced by them losing that
[53:41] 2008 final. But yeah, playing without a
[53:43] proper striker, I know you had closer kind of off the bench in
[53:46] 2014, but it was fundamentally kind of a it was a nameless
[53:51] system. And you had kind of the yeah, a
[53:54] much more kind of possession Bespoch with Tony Kross,
[53:56] obviously, who well, Antonio Kross as they call him here.
[54:01] And so, so, yeah, you have kind of all these kind of nuances
[54:04] which Germany kind of, I think England and Germany have almost
[54:07] done similar things in the sense that when Spain won that 2008,
[54:10] 2010, they both looked at that and were like, how can we
[54:13] replicate that? Germany did it to great effect.
[54:16] England haven't quite managed it.
[54:18] But but yet how they kind of introduce elements of other
[54:23] games and then try to kind of pair that with their own
[54:25] personality is interesting. And I think even this German
[54:28] side, which I think is, is stacked with quality and
[54:31] fundamentally players that you feel would be good in Spain.
[54:34] Musiala, Fiats, these kind of players.
[54:38] Why? Why is that not working?
[54:40] Why is that not quite? Well, that's what I want to say.
[54:43] That's why I don't think Spain's going away because it feels like
[54:45] Spain even if they want to, like we said can't produce forwards
[54:49] for some reason and but Germany by copying Spain stop producing
[54:55] forwards. They could produce anyways for a
[54:57] bit, if you recall, because 2016 like it's like, yo, just put a
[55:01] nine there. Like Mueller needs a nine.
[55:03] And they Mueller was out there looking kind of like a clown on
[55:06] his own front, if you remember. I know like just, you know, just
[55:09] didn't have it as a nine on his own.
[55:10] And if they had a Kyle Havage, then it would have helped if
[55:14] they had a who's the other big, who's the other good German
[55:17] striker now? Oh, ultimate.
[55:19] Yeah, ultimate. So.
[55:20] So there was no ultimate for a whole decade.
[55:23] And I think that was a consequence of them becoming too
[55:26] Spanish. This is I think Michael Cox has
[55:28] spoken on this in length before. I love the one he breaks this
[55:31] stuff down. But he's like, yeah, like
[55:32] Germany stopped being German. They went too Spanish.
[55:34] They didn't went in 20/16/2018, their caricature.
[55:37] Then they tried marrying Hansi Flick going all in on
[55:39] possession. But that's a tough game model at
[55:43] the international level where you give up so many chances.
[55:45] But England, I would argue honestly that England, where
[55:49] they've succeeded is that they haven't gotten too sucked in.
[55:53] Like I would argue that Germany winning glosses over how much
[55:57] their developmental cycle took a hit.
[55:58] Whereas England literally have had maybe the best squad in
[56:02] their history every .201820 when they reached the Euro final.
[56:07] The last Euro final squad was more sophisticated technically,
[56:10] technically, physically than the one before that.
[56:12] You get guys like Jude Bellingham who just, you know,
[56:16] no English midfielder, never done anything like he'd achieved
[56:18] before. So I think England have actually
[56:21] gotten linearly better and I think Garrett Southgate was
[56:23] horrible, like disaster. And I think I think vigor
[56:27] Deschamps had Mbappe and Pogba had his best.
[56:29] That's the difference between him and Southgate like honestly,
[56:31] but so I think England have done a great job.
[56:34] Germany, I think the main thing for me is they don't seem to
[56:38] have like 3 copies of the midfielders like Spain.
[56:41] And they also don't have like the five like superstar
[56:45] attackers, Abeki Teke Mbappe, at least like France and and they
[56:49] don't have a superstar or maybe at every position like England.
[56:53] So I think that's where I wonder.
[56:56] I just don't know where German football is going fully.
[56:57] But with that being said, I don't follow German football.
[57:00] I'm very uneducated in this regard.
[57:02] So I do. I do want to say that like I.
[57:04] Should also preface that but but I'm.
[57:07] Judging the Florian words thing, man, Like I'm judging that.
[57:10] How can you not? How can you not?
[57:13] But, but I think the Safegate thing as well, he did clean up
[57:16] that dressing room a lot because I, I don't know what it was, but
[57:20] somehow England, whenever I watched them seem to be
[57:24] completely lacking any sort of cohesion at all times that it
[57:28] was as if they couldn't, they were kind of strangers at all
[57:31] times. Whereas under Southgate, they do
[57:33] seem to have kind of a team mentality.
[57:35] And I know they're under too cool now.
[57:36] And obviously he has that kind of base.
[57:39] And we talked about kind of Luis Enrique kind of providing the
[57:41] base for de la Fuente. One of the things that de la
[57:43] Fuente has by Hook or by Crick, I don't know how he's done it,
[57:47] but the atmosphere in that Spain dressing room has been
[57:49] unbelievable since de la Fuente's been there.
[57:51] And so even if, yeah, kind of Lewis and we had that base, I
[57:55] don't think he ever had that kind of atmosphere.
[57:57] And I think Southgate atmospherically has been
[58:01] brilliant. He's been like a giant kind of
[58:04] he's kind of closed the ozone hole for England almost kind of
[58:08] he's cleaned up the air a lot. So so yeah, yeah, there's
[58:12] there's so many obviously elements that go into these
[58:14] teams and to whether they win a tournament or not as well.
[58:17] I think I I, I did feel for safety.
[58:20] I thought he was a little bit unlucky.
[58:21] I think bounce to the ball, you you get, yeah, one or two things
[58:27] go a different way. I think he was quite unlucky not
[58:29] to end up winning a tournament just by almost kind of sheer
[58:32] quality and the fact that they were kind of united.
[58:35] Yeah, no, I think, I think Southgate did as much as the
[58:38] Champs and I think like both of them could more or less have won
[58:41] one and like Portugal have got 1.
[58:43] So like if Portugal got one, why can't these guys get one for
[58:46] sure? Or Southgate's the unlucky of
[58:48] the three between the old Portugal coach.
[58:51] Was it Fernando Santos the guy? Yes.
[58:53] Oh man, miracle that he he won that, but yeah.
[58:57] I got, I got so tired of seeing his face at every tournament
[58:59] after a point. But yeah, no, So, yeah, so some
[59:03] guys get away with it, but I, I just think some squads are so
[59:06] stacked, they're bound to win one anyways.
[59:08] And I think Portugal, France and Spain, Portugal, France and
[59:12] England have been in that category.
[59:14] So. And the other thing is I think
[59:17] just a little bit of inventiveness to not be the one
[59:21] chasing the ball all the time against Spain.
[59:23] If he had shown that in any game before Spain, he never showed
[59:27] that like just a little bit of like controlling the game, like
[59:30] at least a champ showed a willingness to like destroy the
[59:33] game. In 2018, Southgate did show
[59:35] that. But I think you reach a level of
[59:37] quality where that's a little risky and you, if you can show
[59:40] the willingness to also impose yourself for 10 minutes, just
[59:44] lets people breathe, lets you survive.
[59:46] And I think he kind of made it uphill for them sometimes.
[59:49] Like again with the ball, like very big enough with the ball, a
[59:52] little stale. But with that being said, you're
[59:55] right about the atmosphere because I don't know what Tuko's
[59:57] doing with Jude, but he's he's been weird.
[1:00:00] He's been weird multiple times. He said some weird things like.
[1:00:03] He should have just batted off. He thinks he should have batted
[1:00:06] off much more easily. We've given everything he knows.
[1:00:08] Yeah. So yeah, I think that's going to
[1:00:12] be interesting because you have Morgan Rogers of Aston Villa
[1:00:15] knocking on the door for the front of Man City and those
[1:00:18] teams are having cohesive seasons relative to us right
[1:00:21] now, even though they're second and third, even though they're
[1:00:23] second. Like, I know it's but but I will
[1:00:26] say this, the last thing, Jude looked really good going into
[1:00:29] the break. Last couple games.
[1:00:31] Benzema made those comments about how he needs to be the
[1:00:34] playmaker and he kind of took it to heart.
[1:00:36] He stopped running into the box all the time and he looked to
[1:00:39] receive back the goal and circulate for the sake of
[1:00:42] circulation, which again, before it was a lot of like received
[1:00:46] turn. Can I make the Hollywood move?
[1:00:47] And it's a little bit less of that.
[1:00:50] And I think, you know, he's, that Spanish turn is great
[1:00:53] because that's what you need when you're playing these Pedres
[1:00:56] and Bettinas and all these guys like Jude needs to be able to
[1:00:59] bring some of that against those players.
[1:01:01] Because I don't know, I just feel like you're kind of like a
[1:01:04] sorcerer on the pitch. Like you're, you're not just
[1:01:06] trying to like reach the other side, you're trying to like cast
[1:01:09] spells and control the game. And Jude's kind of singing the
[1:01:12] game back right now. I like that.
[1:01:14] So if he, which is my way of saying if you get to bench,
[1:01:16] there would be a disaster now, you better not bench.
[1:01:19] Like if before 2 games I would have accepted it.
[1:01:21] Now I think it would actually be controversial to bench him for
[1:01:24] too long. I I.
[1:01:26] Think, I, I actually think the criticism of, of Valiums from
[1:01:29] the bit harsh of late. I mean, I think if you look at
[1:01:32] all of the images, midfielders, none of them are particularly
[1:01:35] performing well. And Bellingham is nominally at
[1:01:38] least playing in midfield. So there's something going on
[1:01:41] there. And I think Bellingham is, you
[1:01:44] obviously have the classical where he's very, very good.
[1:01:46] And then he had one or two other games where I was quite
[1:01:48] professional. I thought against LG was quite
[1:01:50] good. I think he comes up with the
[1:01:52] equalizer. Is it against LG?
[1:01:55] Something like that I mean. Yeah, that was 22.
[1:01:57] But yeah, anyway, but yeah, I think I think he's had like two
[1:02:00] or three, three or four games where he's been really quite
[1:02:02] good since he kind of got fully fit.
[1:02:05] And now he just kind of needs to find, find a role because I
[1:02:08] think consequence of that kind of heart that he has, that kind
[1:02:12] of, yeah, the, the whole kind of English kind of mentality of, of
[1:02:17] blood and guts kind of thing. I think, I think he does give
[1:02:20] you that, that he will kind of pull you through moments at
[1:02:22] times, even if he's not playing well, even if he doesn't have a
[1:02:24] good situation to play in. So, so, yeah, I think it's been
[1:02:29] a little bit harsh. I mean, there's been headlines
[1:02:30] here for, for people that aren't kind of across it saying Jude is
[1:02:33] a problem or what do we do with Jude or finding a position for
[1:02:37] Jude. And that, yeah, I, I think it's,
[1:02:39] it's a little bit overplayed. And I think it's more of a
[1:02:41] function of of Real Madrid's dysfunction than this.
[1:02:46] His, his technical flow is really high.
[1:02:48] I, I never thought he was too associative, but he, he's
[1:02:51] trying, he's had moments, maybe the start of last year under
[1:02:53] Carlo, Carlo tried him deeper and, and now where he, you can
[1:02:57] see that ultimately, if he moves too much, you're never going to
[1:03:01] get the benefit of some of that technical quality if he moves
[1:03:04] too much. And so just learning to play
[1:03:06] phases of the game more stationary and then save all
[1:03:10] that movement for the bursts where it's really needed.
[1:03:12] I think that's been the challenge because because the
[1:03:14] reality is football is a young man's game where the team that
[1:03:17] could make a thousand runs and do everything is gonna be more
[1:03:20] dangerous sometimes. Like that's why Vinicius and
[1:03:22] Jude were able to lead us to so many titles.
[1:03:24] But you know, it's it's you just can't approach like you can't
[1:03:28] approach it that way the whole game.
[1:03:29] And right now he's the only one with the technical floor who
[1:03:32] could even help us approach it differently, which is what's
[1:03:34] what's sad. Like we don't have players who
[1:03:36] can't help us do that. And that's why he's in that
[1:03:38] role. Ideally he he does return to
[1:03:41] more of a Merlo style role. I think went with the right team
[1:03:46] because I think he is good at it.
[1:03:47] I think Merlo with a little more press resistance, a little more
[1:03:51] control would be amazing for him.
[1:03:53] And right now we just the way football's going and some of
[1:03:57] these teams, they just can't put him there.
[1:03:58] They need a little more away from the box from him.
[1:04:01] Any, any last thoughts here around Christmas, New Year?
[1:04:05] Anything fun going on with you Rui?
[1:04:06] Anything fun with football, Espana or or Spanish football or
[1:04:09] anything? Most fun is I think I'll be at
[1:04:12] Rao Hatafe on Friday, so make that what you will for me.
[1:04:16] Fun for offers less so, but yeah, no, that's kind of the
[1:04:21] majority of it. I've got a piece coming out this
[1:04:24] week on kind of Alonzo and how hard it is to kind of shift the
[1:04:29] culture at Real Madrid and how he's kind of come up against
[1:04:31] some, some buffers, that kind of thing.
[1:04:33] So. So yeah, tune into that, which,
[1:04:36] in theory at least, should reach your audience well.
[1:04:38] Yeah, yeah, No, I I do try to share a couple of things here
[1:04:41] and there from football Espana, if you follow the Twitter
[1:04:44] regardless, Ruiz on Twitter, you can check him out.
[1:04:47] If you follow us on Twitter, Real Deal Pods, we'll share all
[1:04:50] of it. Thank you all for tuning in.
[1:04:51] There's been a fun little break episode during winter break.
[1:04:54] We will be back in touch with you with our programming.
[1:04:56] Grudy will be back on at some point for sure and we will talk
[1:05:00] to you all later.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.