# The Future of Sports Fandom

An episode of [The Real Deal: A Real Madrid Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1807821669), 15 Jan 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/103607aa8/podcast/play/113752561/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-0-9%2F415808701-44100-2-53a982afbbad2.mp3

Sports have never been more available, and yet, many will tell you something feels a bit off about the entire ecosystem.In this episode of The Real Deal, Joel Adejola joins Sid R. to question whether the way modern sports demand attention is actually sustainable. Coaches themselves don't have time to change things from game to game, but many fans watch addictively and expect more and more. Not much changes from game to game because of the oversaturation of the schedule.With leagues expanding schedules, platforms pushing constant engagement, and fans expected to follow everything in real time, the traditional idea of “hardcore fandom” is starting to crack. Joel and Sid discuss how the system hasn’t adapted to how an increasing segment of consumers and 'selective' audiences actually live, work, and consume culture in 2026. Nowadays, a growing segment of fans doesn’t fit the old mold. They’re highly engaged thinkers, builders, and creatives — people deeply interested in strategy, culture, identity, and systems — but unwilling to surrender their entire attention span to constant consumption. They don’t watch everything. They don’t need to. And they don’t feel guilty about it.Sid discusses how even his best coverage and analysis has come from unplugging from Real Madrid as opposed to keeping neurotic tabs on everything like a head coach.We explore this alternative archetype of the modern sports fan: someone who engages selectively, thinks deeply, and values meaning over volume.

## Transcript

[0:01] What's going on, everyone? As you know, a big theme of this
[0:04] show is that you can use sports to learn more about life.
[0:07] You can use anything in sports to kind of expand your palette
[0:13] about life and performance, biology, grit, mentality and all
[0:18] these things. But you know, when you're no
[0:21] longer at the pinnacle, when your team's not winning
[0:23] everything all the time. And even if it is, sometimes
[0:27] it's hard to discern as much after a point.
[0:29] And today we have Joel, who's on to kind of talk about this
[0:33] because Joel is a Man United fan.
[0:35] And, you know, I don't know what you could even learn about
[0:38] sports watching Man United. And Joel subsequently not
[0:41] watched as much Manchester United.
[0:44] Joel, how how is that kind of growing up being a curious
[0:47] person, then you realize you picked wrong.
[0:49] But listen, even I picked the right team and it it gets really
[0:53] hard to keep learning at the same linear rate.
[0:55] Like the first year you watch football versus the second
[0:58] versus the third is very different.
[1:00] Joelle, welcome. Welcome to the show to talk
[1:02] about all this fun stuff. Thanks.
[1:06] This has been great. Thank you for the introduction.
[1:09] And yeah, I think maybe the one that I will take back is
[1:13] watching the lows from United actually taught me some things.
[1:20] But in the long run, compared to like the first couple of years I
[1:24] spent in the sports, I did find observe that I could in essence
[1:31] like predict Oh, wow, this is going to be bad season from I'm
[1:33] staying acted up. We've seen this before.
[1:36] I've tried a couple of years or three years.
[1:38] I started guessing lots of oh, I've seen this before all this
[1:41] maps out and kind of make it made a similar conclusion or
[1:46] once the one you've spoken about now of I suppose it might not be
[1:50] worthwhile for me to spend as much time watching the actual
[1:54] games, even though I still do want to develop or make some
[1:59] impact in this field. Yeah, no, that's it's definitely
[2:03] fascinating. So I guess like I want to wind
[2:06] the clock back to when we started watching and kind of go
[2:09] through time. So I feel like when you first
[2:12] start watching, every single game is like a chess match
[2:16] unfolding, at least for me, that's what I used to see.
[2:19] So I'm like, OK, like, yes, this team is great.
[2:23] They have so many points and that team is so great.
[2:25] They have maybe they're worse, maybe they're an underdog.
[2:28] But when you get onto the pitch, both the underdog and the
[2:31] favorite, it's it's the same, it's like 11 pieces.
[2:34] You're, you're out there. You have to survive, you have to
[2:36] win. And some days, if you pull off
[2:39] an extraordinary chess setup, so to speak, maybe you can punch
[2:43] above your weight. And that's always what attracted
[2:46] me from the first day, the idea of like, different dynamic
[2:49] pieces that have different abilities kind of set up by a
[2:52] coach who's like a chess master. So that's what brought me to the
[2:56] game at first. What about you?
[3:01] I think besides the fact that I grew up in a house that people
[3:05] watch sports, I found myself early on maybe listening on
[3:12] conversations my parents and the adults had about maybe why a
[3:16] game was going South or why the team was not performing.
[3:19] And I realized I disagreed with the I.
[3:22] Read on the game very often and. So we'd be watching the same
[3:26] game and you'd be coming like, oh, this player hasn't been
[3:28] doing great. Well, that player has actually
[3:30] been doing great in this game. And so when I got older and
[3:35] finally he was able to like express some of these opinions
[3:38] or share some of these, I realized I'd either developed
[3:42] some tapes, some takes on the game that were different from
[3:46] theirs or the consensus, or just figuring those things out and
[3:51] sharing. I was trying to get my views
[3:54] across or figure out the why do these trends happen over and
[3:59] over ended up being something that I was interested in.
[4:04] I think most of the acceleration actually came like the time I've
[4:07] watched football. The most ended up being when I
[4:09] started writing about it online. And so the Twitter community or
[4:14] everyone online became the adults in my small room that had
[4:19] takes I did not like or that I thought were wrong.
[4:22] So now I just had a larger platform, a larger spread of
[4:25] people that I use as my test value was almost their takes.
[4:31] I ended up doing things like I'd get a take from them and go test
[4:35] it out myself by watching the game and then write my response
[4:40] to that. OK, hey, people say this is what
[4:42] happens when this happens in the game.
[4:45] I checked it out and I think it's wrong.
[4:47] Here's the summary and here's what here's how I think we
[4:49] should look at it instead. That makes sense.
[4:52] For me, it was, I think FIFA. I'm realizing like I, I don't
[4:55] think I organically was into the sport the same way.
[4:58] Like, I like playing and I like playing FIFA and I'm just
[5:00] realizing how much wanting to become a coach is different from
[5:04] enjoying those things or just wanting to.
[5:07] But basically I loved that in FIFA that that you could set up
[5:13] all these instructions and man marketing and all the different
[5:15] things and they felt real enough.
[5:18] And there was a point when the games would try to replicate
[5:21] real life before they became unashamed money grabs, which I
[5:24] feel bad for a kid today who has to learn the game because it's
[5:28] like you play with the players with the attributes, but the
[5:30] game is designed to let players score.
[5:32] And like there's a whole control, control system over the
[5:35] game. Back then, it was just actually
[5:38] just trying to be a simulation. When we were growing up,
[5:40] FIFA1314, and I loved using Ronaldo.
[5:44] Honestly, that's why I became a fan of Real Madrid.
[5:46] I was just like, like everyone talked messy and they also used
[5:50] messy. And having used Ronaldo, I'm
[5:52] like, OK, like it's kind of weird if there are no fans of
[5:54] this player and this team like in the school.
[5:58] And and so that's what brought me in.
[6:01] And I'm realizing like a lot of the fun for me was I was more
[6:06] obsessed with the tactics, whereas a lot of my friends
[6:09] wouldn't play for tactics, but they would get good at dribbling
[6:11] with the players. My whole obsession was like,
[6:13] where should I get the guy to stand and and all that.
[6:15] And it come it comes back to chess.
[6:19] But I would say like, I'm realizing a lot of the learning
[6:22] I got was from the shared experience of consuming it with
[6:26] my friends growing up. And I think I don't know why,
[6:29] but just like if you're not in a place physically in person and
[6:33] having that communal experience, I think the benefit to the
[6:37] individual goes down. And you know, we, you at some
[6:40] point maybe we started aspiring to work in sports.
[6:42] So we get super granular and nuanced with all these things,
[6:45] but I feel like like I think community is where we got into
[6:50] it at first. And I feel like some of the
[6:52] analytical sides and watching every game for the sake of it to
[6:55] have the right take. It's because you view yourself
[6:58] as a take guy that starts taking away from the enjoyment of the
[7:01] sport. Yeah, I I'm definitely agree
[7:05] with that last point. So two things there.
[7:06] First, the community, yes, a lot of that deep intellectual work
[7:11] of being able to dig in is and was possible because there was a
[7:17] community for it in some sense of maybe at that time the jaw
[7:23] and they said who were in those spaces felt maybe situated from
[7:27] the community of other people doing this kind of work.
[7:30] And that has changed a bit now, which I'll get back to.
[7:35] And the second point about sometimes not even just the work
[7:40] of or the opportunity to watch a game becomes kind of tasking
[7:44] when you spend lots of your efforts maybe drawing value or
[7:48] trying to draw almost reads or or recognize patterns through
[7:51] these games. And so I think that's actually,
[7:55] that's probably the better approach of what happened.
[7:58] I think I first started realizing this watching some
[8:02] games even casually was draining me where I had other things
[8:07] happened in my life and. While that happened to, I also
[8:11] realized that I also wasn't. Learning as much from the games
[8:14] as I used to learn that used to make that trade off worthwhile.
[8:18] So it was when that trade off no longer became worthwhile that I
[8:23] extracted myself. Yeah.
[8:26] And why? I feel like how many United fans
[8:30] would you say are like yourself and I I just don't relate to the
[8:34] type of fan that can watch losing for a decade.
[8:36] I just really don't understand. And I feel like we all, yeah, we
[8:40] all started inhabiting these online spaces where we could
[8:43] find people like ourselves who are super addicted to the
[8:46] tactical side. But, you know, that makes it
[8:49] feel like you're obliged to continue following the team.
[8:52] Like, and I'm just realizing how much like football, Twitter, for
[8:55] example, has created this sense of FOMO where every time a game
[8:59] happens. And I remember when I first
[9:01] started being on Twitter, honestly, in a sense, it created
[9:03] like I was in, I moved to America from Singapore.
[9:07] I don't have my friends in Singapore, but I still have the
[9:09] WhatsApp group with them. I can react to some games, but
[9:12] it's the fact that I have this live Twitter group chat that
[9:15] gets me really engaged. It's like, oh, like these people
[9:18] are seeing the same things as me.
[9:20] But I think as a kid, it's one thing, but I just, you just get
[9:24] older and then maybe you see the guy who's paid by ESPN reacting
[9:29] as if he's enthusiastic for the same game.
[9:31] But you don't realize, like, yo, like, go focus on your career,
[9:34] like that's not there for you. And I just feel like a lot of
[9:38] these people who consume it purely as a hobby, you know,
[9:41] their goals are a little different.
[9:42] Like they can't like fundamentally there's this
[9:45] belief created on football Twitter that you are like only a
[9:49] loyal fan if you consume all the games.
[9:51] And it's just this very delusional, twisted thing that's
[9:54] far from reality, I think. Yeah, a lot of, a lot of good
[10:03] points there, a lot of good. Points I can also relate to the
[10:05] having a group chat with friends from high school who I used to
[10:10] like when we were in the same shared physical space together
[10:15] who we used to commune and watch the games together and it does
[10:17] kind of feel different online. It worked for a while us using
[10:21] the online space as a what type of groups as these substitutes,
[10:24] but that kind of gets to it's limits or breaking points.
[10:30] And the other big there is I actually don't know many fans
[10:34] like myself in real life who have like.
[10:40] I don't know the many fans or united fans of myself in real
[10:42] life who have decided, OK, I'm actually no longer like the game
[10:46] is no longer providing X value. I'm going to stop watching
[10:48] because I can maybe quite the opposite online.
[10:53] I guess AI usually I now have responses like, oh, then you
[10:57] never really you never even you were never a fan or oh, don't
[11:02] don't listen to joy. So when I do make the few
[11:05] occasional reads or takes like don't listen to joy, you don't
[11:08] even watch the games from my friend in person.
[11:12] That has been a mixed bag of for some of them, I've actually told
[11:15] them outrightly to not bring up sports or Manchester United,
[11:20] especially when I speak too frequently for those friends
[11:24] where sports used to be our primary point of contact.
[11:28] I've kind of giving some cure. Hey, the chances are if you ask
[11:32] me about this game, I will not know.
[11:34] And in general just actually don't bring up United or hey,
[11:38] Joe, did you see what all you said or what the manager said or
[11:42] don't ask me. Preferably with some of these
[11:46] friends, our interactions have dialed down as a consequence,
[11:49] not like in anger, just just because we're not sharing the
[11:54] same name, no spaces as often. So that's one of the
[11:57] consequences. But no, actually I don't know
[11:59] many other people who have made this kind of similar
[12:04] recognition, at least for many United fans.
[12:07] When I speak to some professionals I know in a
[12:10] broader sense, I find that this is something that does happen,
[12:14] especially with this big like this very time consuming
[12:18] hobbies. When you do when people are
[12:19] older will tell you things like. Oh yeah, I used to be a huge
[12:21] gamer and at this. Community and now I don't game
[12:24] anymore or I used to oh I used to support Manchester United or
[12:27] supports watch sports all the time and now I don't do it at
[12:30] all because I just realized it wasn't worth.
[12:33] So that is more consistent when you zoom out and ask people who
[12:36] are successful. 1020 years down the line and I won't think about
[12:41] it. Before I came to the realization
[12:43] I actually did already have some.
[12:47] I see. Successful by whatever match
[12:49] you'd use. I've had some other people also
[12:52] be intrigued by my own exploration in sports, then also
[12:56] tell me, oh wow, that's actually at some point to they were
[12:58] interested in that and now they don't actually have time, not
[13:04] even have time. They've like kind of chosen to
[13:06] not commit their time to watching any sports or any video
[13:10] games or see shows watching shows or something like that
[13:13] anymore in favor of the niche or whatever path they've now
[13:17] focused on holding on. Yeah.
[13:20] I mean, it takes a lot to differentiate now.
[13:22] And, you know, if you're successful and you listen to
[13:24] this show, I'm not trying to knock people who watch Real
[13:26] Madrid and successful. We want we want successful
[13:29] people to listen to this show. But it's it's just interesting
[13:32] to ponder in terms of how much can you learn from a game.
[13:36] And I was talking to Le Conte from those of you listen to this
[13:38] show. We were talking off air.
[13:40] Le Conte is the coach who comes on the show, Joel, and he's
[13:43] coaching right now and move in and changing setup before he
[13:46] comes back. And even he was saying like, you
[13:49] know, I'm coaching now and like even with these kids or whoever
[13:51] he's coaching, like I can only change so much between each
[13:54] match day. And that I think is something
[13:58] interesting because when you look at the people who watch
[14:01] every game and talk about it, most of them are fans who are
[14:05] emotional, Then it's actually either content creators or
[14:09] scouts who work for the team. And when you go look at that
[14:14] content creators, like one big qualm of mine on this show is
[14:18] that if you really want to look at things tactically for any
[14:21] team, game to game, not that much can change like every
[14:24] single game. So you end up repeating a lot.
[14:27] And the whole act of repeating the same things, yeah, it's
[14:30] draining to me. And and then that's where I
[14:33] started asking the question, like, who are the people who
[14:36] watch every game granularly? And it's like the coaches who do
[14:38] themselves, they don't expect so much to change, the people who
[14:42] are involved. So why do you, like, watch and,
[14:44] like, get mad when something doesn't change?
[14:47] I think that's something super interesting.
[14:48] And it ties in with the limits of human behavior.
[14:50] Like, these are human beings who are getting on flights every
[14:53] three days and playing, going on buses.
[14:55] Like, how much can you even learn in that type of
[14:58] environment? Not that much.
[14:59] And yeah, but just some miscellaneous thoughts.
[15:02] Like sometimes I feel like fans watch expecting so much to
[15:06] change without realizing. Like some things are set in
[15:09] stone with with that level of travel, with the lack of
[15:11] coaching time and I guess knowing how little you can
[15:14] change on the training ground makes the makes me wonder like
[15:18] what are these people doing watching every game?
[15:23] There's definitely the case for you can know you can we can tell
[15:28] the case for coaches, why the why the coaches watch the games,
[15:33] why say the analysts for. The clubs watch the games, but
[15:38] even then I'd say another misconception people have is
[15:44] that you need to watch all the games, which is currently said
[15:48] that you need to watch all the games to be able to make car
[15:51] like live commentary or to have an updated take on what is
[15:54] happening in reality. Some of these systems and
[15:58] frameworks you build. So this is my.
[16:03] Frameworks you build earlier from watching older games or
[16:06] just awareness of this is how this club did read those things
[16:09] and this how this management team sets up does actually
[16:15] scale. Bless me does actually scale and
[16:17] allow you to it allows you to be able to step off for a while and
[16:24] come back and get up to speed with, oh, so this is what is
[16:28] happening here. And I think that's just a good
[16:32] angle of if the if there are four sets of people that watch
[16:36] every single game, die hard fans, coaches, the coaches of
[16:40] the teams themselves, the analysts of the teams themselves
[16:43] and say the content creators that have 100K subscribers on
[16:47] YouTube. There's only one group here that
[16:50] is losing. There's only one group here that
[16:52] is not making a livelihood from watching every game.
[16:54] And that's the die hard fans. Yeah, yeah, well, you're saying
[17:00] that that Die hard fans are the only group that kind of like
[17:03] really lives and dies with each game or what?
[17:05] Do you mean, Yeah, I said, well, if the if the group of if we
[17:08] said four groups of people who watch every game are the coaches
[17:12] of the teams themselves, the analysts with all the scouts for
[17:16] that team themselves and see content.
[17:20] Creator but like one of those I don't know for United, they
[17:23] couldn't be Mark Goldbridge, who does live life watch alongs but
[17:28] also has almost I don't know if he has a million followers or a
[17:32] million subscribers on YouTube. And so and the die hard fans
[17:36] themselves. And so if you look at the
[17:38] spectrum of those four sets of people, three sets of three of
[17:41] those people or three groups are making their money from watching
[17:45] every single game like they're earning A livelihood from
[17:48] watching every single game and living their lives out of it.
[17:51] But the die hard fans are trying to live their lives out of it
[17:56] and also committing or punishing themselves to watching every
[17:59] single game. Yeah.
[18:01] And I think this is where sports is competing in the future.
[18:04] Like they're not competing with sports fans anymore.
[18:07] Like you're competing with the best TV show on television.
[18:11] Or I could be watching a movie or YouTube at this point.
[18:14] Like you could instead of watching another two hours of
[18:18] Ruben MRM's team just fucking suck, you could go to YouTube
[18:22] and like watch like something about geopolitics, something
[18:26] about cinema, get an analysis of Man United when they watch along
[18:29] in that time. And yes, it's not first hand
[18:32] knowledge, but you know, if you're watching for fun, it's
[18:35] not like you need first hand knowledge.
[18:36] And I think like, and and that's where I started wondering like
[18:41] how many football games were fun, like to watch as art as
[18:46] opposed to like when I wanted my team to win.
[18:48] And I'm realizing like I've enjoyed it primarily as a
[18:52] general or a soldier who can like envision being in battle,
[18:55] who thinks about how the players are going to do in battle.
[18:58] But I can't just follow along for entertainment like ATV show.
[19:03] No, like no episode like, you know, not all the TV shows are
[19:06] the same, not all the seasons of every TV shows the same.
[19:09] So to watch the same TV show and watch every season of it.
[19:12] I don't understand that. I will say this something really
[19:15] funny as well. In 2016, when Real Madrid
[19:19] appointed Zadan, they were considering they were debating
[19:23] internally about who would sack him if like he failed.
[19:27] I would also reach that point where I was debating internally
[19:31] if he failed, what team I was going to support because I don't
[19:35] I'm not yes, you can call me a glory under this that I'm
[19:38] obsessed with winning. I care about who wins, why they
[19:41] win. So if you're watching the TV
[19:43] show that way, Joel, I don't watch like, and this is going
[19:46] back ten years. I'm happy to say it on the show.
[19:49] While I've been on the managing Madrid podcast, I've watched
[19:51] more Real Madrid football than ever.
[19:53] But before that, like I watched the Champions league and I
[19:55] watched like Arsenal, Bayern, Arsenal, city, like I watched
[19:59] the big games from the season. So my season of watching
[20:02] football is exclusively like contender versus contender.
[20:05] And I think I just don't I I can't fathom most fans now.
[20:09] It's like, wow, you watch the same team every week, week in,
[20:12] week out. You don't even bother, like
[20:14] getting an idea of like how other teams play.
[20:17] It's very myopic. You know, Yeah, it might be
[20:21] useful at this point because you made a good, you know, he's
[20:24] bringing about like the like, let's say if you don't have fans
[20:28] who really are actually just. The.
[20:35] I don't use were the victims when there's like the events be
[20:37] said in essence they're the victims of the complex wearing
[20:40] the larger complex that is actually at stake here is the
[20:44] attention like. Sports actually not competing
[20:47] with the they want your viewership.
[20:50] They want the people to come in like they're adding more games,
[20:54] not because they won't put like the coaches are still wanting
[20:58] performance to stay high, but the games, the federations that
[21:01] are adding more games. Increasing the times how many
[21:05] times? How?
[21:05] Often these people play increasing.
[21:07] The slots for Champions League what they are really competing
[21:11] for is attention. And actually that is the last
[21:14] essay I just realized when you set that up.
[21:16] Easy paragraph. What section?
[21:19] I have in my last essay, Ballers bands where I ride essentially
[21:23] like 2 forces are shaping the sports money like attention,
[21:26] such money and performance. It's like the two separate
[21:29] things are performance like winning the traditional access,
[21:32] and more recently money attention.
[21:34] So I have media rights, social media variety, fan fan
[21:39] engagement, and brand value. And to some extent the trap or
[21:48] the I need to watch every game or I'm here every time is.
[21:55] Actually where the money that is where the broadcast money comes
[21:58] from and broadcast money is essentially what fuels sports.
[22:02] And so with these competing interests of now people have
[22:08] their phones, Netflix, TV shows, video games, all trying to buy
[22:13] in for this same 24 hours of people's day.
[22:17] You find that I think we can easy project a trend of.
[22:23] Sports. They all sports in general,
[22:26] trying to find more ways to capture, like most experimental
[22:31] ways to capture. How do we get more fans?
[22:33] How do we get more eyeballs? The NFL are still playing games,
[22:36] live games in other countries. Similarly, I think La Liga and
[22:40] some of the European clubs have also experimented playing some
[22:44] of their games in the US. All of this, I think you can tie
[22:47] back to that trend of competing for attention and competing for
[22:52] eyeballs. It's so it's interesting 'cause
[22:56] I guess the way it goes is like you get like an industry rises
[23:01] and you, you get the attention of kids who are like at a
[23:05] certain age group. And then if your team stays
[23:08] good, you retain some of them. But if they're bad, you lose
[23:12] some of them maybe like you and to a degree.
[23:15] But I think what's shocking is just how big the marketing
[23:18] budgets are. So somewhere like United, like
[23:21] the number of the amount of attention they harvest
[23:23] successfully is just shocking. And yeah, I guess like I, I,
[23:27] it's an interesting combo because I always say to people
[23:30] like, if it wasn't Real Madrid winning, I would have stopped
[23:32] following football a long time ago because like Real Madrid
[23:35] winning allowed me to essentially continue my
[23:37] childhood without like the downsides of everything I've
[23:42] realized because they're winning.
[23:43] I'm telling you, if they don't win, it's not the same because
[23:47] because then you're like every all the assessments you made
[23:50] don't work at the highest stage, at the highest level.
[23:52] Then as an analyst, I'm like, OK, what's the point?
[23:54] Like none of this shit's going to work if you if you can't
[23:57] execute it to win the Champions League.
[23:59] I just don't see the point. Like, I know that's a very Real
[24:01] Madrid thing to say, but like, you know, if, if we're going to
[24:04] spend 10 years not being there, I don't know how much you can
[24:07] really learn about football if you're not near the pinnacle of
[24:09] the game as Real Madrid. But but yeah, as far as United
[24:14] though, like, so how does this work?
[24:16] Then You get, like, millions of people and they're constantly
[24:19] just putting their logo out in front of more and more people.
[24:22] Like, do you meet new United fans?
[24:24] Like, they're still there, right there.
[24:25] I mean, they still make so much money somehow.
[24:28] Yeah. Do I I I don't actually honest.
[24:33] I've one way I've managed to. Like, the decision to not watch
[24:38] any games did not work in isolation.
[24:41] A few other things came out of this and.
[24:44] Being for more, essentially just designing the environment.
[24:49] So where are the entry points for me to watch those games or
[24:53] to be involved? It was like the group chats,
[24:56] they're the friends I knew who had catch up with maybe before
[24:59] or after the games. There was Twitter, there was my
[25:02] blog, which at some point was. Primarily Manchester United
[25:06] focused and so that's which actually happened in AI started
[25:11] writing about other themes or bigger picture themes that
[25:14] Manchester United. I stepped off some of those
[25:17] group chats or archive them with friends and family that used to
[25:22] be United adjacent. I'd tell them like sometimes
[25:26] they didn't get to do the drift maybe because like, oh, Joe has
[25:29] some good ticks. So I still want to get those
[25:30] ticks, but I did tell like. Already to ask me about United
[25:33] or I've not seen it, I've not watched.
[25:35] The last thing I watched was months ago, so don't ask me.
[25:38] And then also, in general, stepping off for curating my
[25:42] feet on Twitter. So I did.
[25:45] I think I even missed that out. For instance, earlier this year
[25:48] I missed out on the entire Rashford versus Amorem debacle
[25:54] because I muted Marcus Rashford. By the way, I love Marcus
[25:57] Rashford, my favorite book. That's one of the reasons.
[25:59] He was one of the first players I muted.
[26:00] One of the first names I muted so I muted Rashford muted amorem
[26:05] muted every like big key these kind of.
[26:08] Keywords that I release like man sentence like get me thinking or
[26:11] could learn me back in. I muted all those words muted
[26:15] the account and at some point I went as far as actually muted
[26:20] every I scrolled through my feet and every accounts that I saw
[26:24] like that I had. I had followed those mutuals
[26:26] with because of Manchester United or that shit and the
[26:29] Manchester United related. I also muted them like just in
[26:32] that moment. Thanks, Muted.
[26:34] And within maybe two weeks of doing this, I was able to like
[26:37] actually within a week, one weekend of actually just put in
[26:39] these guard rails, I was able to immediately transition into OK.
[26:43] Now I'm living a life where I can go through my D or
[26:46] consecutive days. I'm actually not be reminded
[26:49] about Manchester United. Until say, when my mom calls me
[26:52] to say, hey, Joel, yeah, did you see what happened?
[26:54] Yes. I'm like, oh, United ID game.
[26:56] I had no clue. So that was kind of the many
[27:00] layers that happened. I mean, in this it has now kind
[27:04] of created some. I've found myself maybe
[27:10] reflecting on music about the themes I already did know when I
[27:14] do get reintroduced into sports it.
[27:16] Was like a challenge of now and so how much you really know
[27:19] about the sports like. Like someone, something gets
[27:22] said to me and then now my brain is actually working extra hard
[27:25] to like maybe pull from the context or systems I've already
[27:29] built years back or a couple years back.
[27:31] So that's been kind of, this is more stimulating, more
[27:33] challenging, but it has given me like a goal.
[27:37] So you guys go live all the experience and come and pitch.
[27:40] This very specific problem to me, and let me see if I've
[27:43] actually learned anything to tell you whether that was
[27:46] predictable, like almost like to give you a reader.
[27:47] Here's what I think about that. So that's kind of the mini game
[27:51] I've been playing now for the year.
[27:53] Yeah, no, that's interesting because I have various points
[27:56] dealing with a lot of issues and still do.
[27:58] Honestly, it's been hard to make this show keep going.
[28:00] But like the association of your identity with a time in your
[28:05] life where you used to follow those sports teams a lot, it's
[28:09] really strong. And when you're trying to make
[28:11] changes or become a new person and move forward and forget
[28:15] about old things, I do think that that association can be
[28:20] very damaging and it can really hurt.
[28:22] Like being reminded of united while you're like busy painting
[28:27] a new path for yourself is the worst thing.
[28:28] I'm sure on a given day sometimes and even the same with
[28:31] real for me, I'll I'll just like think about soccer history and
[28:35] I'm just like, no one's paying me for this.
[28:37] It's not like we have a billion subscribers, and it's not like I
[28:41] have a big salary. So I'm like, why do I care to
[28:43] explain to some random person, like why this historical fact
[28:47] about this team is real? But it's scary because, like,
[28:50] that means there's not much of an incentive structure to keep
[28:52] the truth alive in sports. Like, and I see that all the
[28:56] time, like people are stupid. They don't.
[28:59] The memory of the past is heavily distorted.
[29:02] So what happens is like, paradoxically, the number of
[29:05] people in sports who kind of stick around for the lifetime of
[29:08] a fan who know what they're talking about.
[29:10] It's pretty limited. Like I like you have to kind of
[29:12] do it for life. I'm realizing like if you want
[29:14] to be a talking head, like look at Sid Lowe or some of these big
[29:18] writers, the ESPN people, Craig Burley, Michael Cox, Zono
[29:21] Marking, like big name personalities who shaped our
[29:24] culture in the game. Like if you, if you want to be a
[29:27] take guy, you got to own it and you got to be there all the
[29:29] time. Otherwise there, there isn't
[29:32] going to be that value. And not only that, the pressure
[29:36] to be a take guy that you exert on yourself, as you said, it can
[29:39] exhaust you. It can drain your contacts,
[29:41] switching resources that you need.
[29:42] And the other thing I'll say is this, you don't gain
[29:46] interpersonal skills by watching soccer games.
[29:48] You don't gain and the ceiling of navigating reality and
[29:53] navigating football clubs, if that's your goal is very high.
[29:57] Like you can navigate anything if you have exceptional charisma
[30:00] and interpersonal skills, you're not going to gain that by
[30:03] watching another grown man kick the ball.
[30:05] And like you got to go try and be try things.
[30:08] You got to put yourself out there in social situations.
[30:11] And I feel like there aren't that many high networking events
[30:15] necessarily associated with soccer games.
[30:18] Like a soccer game is where you associate with drugs and every
[30:22] man's things, which is fun, but it doesn't tie in with self
[30:25] actualization all the time. Yeah, I think some of what
[30:33] you're describing is almost the so the need for abstraction,
[30:40] like at some point in sports, if you need to keep growing, you
[30:44] need to kind of abstract the keep on abstracting the layers
[30:48] which you're making your reads or inferences.
[30:50] And so let's say for football, that could be from watching it
[30:55] for funs with friends to say watching it for tactics or OK,
[31:02] now watching it, realizing all the players have profiles, then
[31:06] maybe being able to connect. OK, wow, this is a trend about
[31:09] the institution. What makes it good good football
[31:12] institution to say institutions you know at large in society are
[31:17] abstracting from there to a. Wow, look at the personalities.
[31:24] I know I had one essay about on slots and I watched a couple of
[31:28] his press conference around my sabbatical, like my boss
[31:30] sabbatical. I watched a couple of his press
[31:33] conference and I was pretty impressed by just the charisma
[31:37] personality he had. And I wrote a piece comment like
[31:40] just some commentary about this person's personality and people.
[31:45] I got like some weird like Joe, this is not this is not the
[31:47] tactic I signed up for. But I'm like this.
[31:49] This seems useful if we're. Looking at it from the spectrum
[31:51] mode. Sports to life, how can we map
[31:55] on sports life and those are the kinds of abstractions you make
[31:59] and ultimately I think you get to a point where which is now my
[32:03] mind right now like players are humans ultimately to like
[32:07] athletes are humans ultimately to thinking about some of the
[32:11] problem solvings or approaches to how do we make this work as
[32:15] really this is another human or. Like this player is just a is a
[32:21] human. Who has processes or
[32:25] inclinations that are similar to other humans and what do you
[32:29] have? What do you do that without into
[32:31] without insight? That's one day.
[32:33] That's the first big chunk of thoughts I have.
[32:36] The second is I realize now that some of my motivation for
[32:45] stepping off and even writing in general has been because.
[32:49] I will. You're observing.
[32:51] What we're observing is there's only one the pressure on the
[32:55] fans or the pressure for attention is kind of from one
[32:59] side, from the institutions. If we have the institutions and
[33:01] the complex maybe trying to win more eyeballs, win more views,
[33:06] which is resulting in fans watching more games.
[33:09] And so maybe compared to a few years ago, you now have an
[33:12] average fan who has as much access to see data, elementary
[33:18] analysis, and the actual runway of games as say only an analyst
[33:25] would have years ago, or someone who was actually going for the
[33:27] games. I think that has interesting
[33:31] consequences. Or interesting possibilities for
[33:34] what's like how this game or sports could be redefined a
[33:40] couple years ago, or maybe my first time I appeared.
[33:44] On this podcast, I've noticed this trend of.
[33:46] I am going to say it one more time just because it was
[33:48] completed. This trend of today the average
[33:50] fan is as involved or able to be as involved in games like
[33:55] intimately to the extent that say only a coach or an analyst 2
[34:00] decades ago could be. What that means is any fan who
[34:05] has any modicum of like interest or expertise could essentially
[34:10] build their own. I actually get how they could
[34:13] tell you some serious or useful piece of information about the
[34:17] sports team because it's not a team that they could.
[34:19] They can only catch on TV once every month or catch in person
[34:22] once every year. They can actually watch every
[34:24] single game and re watch every single game and pads into all
[34:27] the small details. And so when I came to this
[34:30] podcast, first a year and a half ago, or at least the version of
[34:36] the podcast you had then I had pitched off this evaluation.
[34:41] I shared. I one of my predictions was that
[34:44] community part predictions what's essentially pulling
[34:47] markets and how she have now gone hard on this this season.
[34:53] I had predicted last year that would be something that would
[34:58] come out of this like we'll get other people trying to cash in
[35:01] on that. Oh, wow.
[35:02] OK. Now fans are even more
[35:03] interested. What are the what, what, what
[35:06] possibilities gets created now? And so we have these companies,
[35:11] companies now being built off. Let us go and try and derive or
[35:16] get some secondary value of the fact that fans are not watching
[35:20] more games than ever or have. This much access.
[35:24] And so we've now spoken where we're from new watchers or
[35:28] people having me here, Western and I came in was the similarly,
[35:32] you also have people who are domain experts in tech, in
[35:36] business that are also sports fans and also have some cool
[35:40] frameworks. So who's actually making or
[35:42] building content for these people?
[35:44] Who's making tools or who's designing technologies for these
[35:48] people who, I don't know, our cars are really sitting on their
[35:51] couch. Have watched United for 10 years
[35:54] and our business executives with very sharp ideas about how see
[35:59] United could approach or their club could approach things
[36:02] differently. Polymarkets and Kyle she has so
[36:06] far. Like this was in the season has
[36:10] not actually started pitching or targeting that's secondary or
[36:14] let's go get people. Maybe not exactly.
[36:16] I thought it would happen. I was thinking in model more
[36:19] like metaculous way would be for the community, like public
[36:22] benefits, both 10 super fans thinking about the game and
[36:25] predicting for whatever. But that's category of fans
[36:30] where, again, we're talking about.
[36:34] Domain experts who happen to be sports fans.
[36:39] So domain experts, really sharp, smart, technical people who
[36:42] happen to be sports fans. I still think there's a gap
[36:45] opportunity for people to build. Or for us to build tools and
[36:49] technologies for those people. Because essentially what that
[36:52] means is you no longer only need to rely on, say, the content
[36:57] creators or the analysts to give you good useful insights.
[37:02] Anybody could give you useful insights if you're able to
[37:05] abstract the problem sufficiently enough to the level
[37:08] in which they can bring in their own experience in.
[37:13] And this is this this like the exact limit of space that I'm
[37:16] trying to write about and building now.
[37:20] Yeah. So it's interesting because like
[37:22] we actually engaged that exact type of fan on this type of show
[37:25] because it's like we obviously have the guise of doing post
[37:29] game shows and tactics, but we also do this stuff.
[37:32] And I've seen over time, there's still two types of that smart
[37:37] fan you're describing. There's that smart fan who's in
[37:40] a very high place who's actually just a really funny casual when
[37:44] it comes to sports who just wants to consume it because I've
[37:46] seen those. And then, yeah, there are smart
[37:49] fans who are also, like, smart about it.
[37:51] There are a lot of stories. A really funny one was Bill
[37:54] Belichick of the Patriots. When he left, he needed a job at
[37:57] UNC. Marco Rubio, the American
[38:00] politician, actually made calls to help him get the job.
[38:03] So it's like, you never know who's watching, right?
[38:05] Like, you never know who's who likes you.
[38:08] And we've definitely gotten that vibe out here.
[38:10] We've had people reach out to us, ask us to keep going.
[38:13] And it's not who people don't listen to.
[38:15] Like, like, that's the thing. This type of consumer doesn't
[38:18] always consume like stuff content creators put out.
[38:21] I think the challenge is that this type of consumer is a small
[38:25] ratio of the total consumers in sports.
[38:27] But I do think there needs to be more spaces for them because
[38:31] they have more money, they're more willing to engage and you
[38:34] can create experiences that are designed around them, willing to
[38:37] spend money. And I personally think in person
[38:40] stuff is the future for this because like, I am sick of
[38:44] dealing with people online who have never socialized.
[38:48] Like we've all, you know, we all grew up in this pandemic world.
[38:51] If you're young or younger than me, all you want are fire in
[38:54] person experiences. Like you want to go rub
[38:57] shoulders, bum shoulders, like like playing drinks with people.
[39:00] Like we, we have enough shit that you can do sitting down on
[39:04] your couch while you're off drugs that like there's enough
[39:06] stuff that the world markets now.
[39:07] So there's enough stuff, there's enough TikTok on your phone.
[39:10] We all know that exists. And I think because I'm just
[39:13] realizing, like, for me, if sports were a way to go out and
[39:17] honestly like meet women and do fun things, I would do it.
[39:20] But I feel like if I'm going to a sports bar, the type of
[39:23] audience that's normally there, it's not intellectually
[39:27] stimulating for me. And it's the same thing space
[39:30] that popular content creators have online.
[39:33] They create a space for these people who are drinking at
[39:35] sports bars. But if there was a space that's
[39:38] more refined and a good example, I think rheometry got close is
[39:40] like, if you can turn it into a entertainment lifestyle brand.
[39:44] And so Real Madrid, I think they have a theme park.
[39:47] I don't know if they've gotten it.
[39:49] I don't think they got it where it needs to go though.
[39:50] Like they need a serious like Gareth Bale 4D experience, like
[39:54] train roller coaster. Like I want to, I want to feel
[39:57] physical sensations of adventure and epicness.
[40:01] So if I could go to like if yeah, if like Real Madrid turned
[40:04] into the Universal Studios and had a theme park, or if I if
[40:07] they had a Cafe like Tesla. Has started doing their cafes if
[40:11] you've seen like these in person things are popular.
[40:14] I think that's a big way to go about it.
[40:16] But but in general, Joelle, the answer is that sports finds it
[40:20] too easy to engage the consumer who's not as wise because
[40:24] there's so many more of them getting born every year.
[40:27] And we're like the meta consumer, the post like Sports
[40:31] Complex consumer who and they just realized that they can keep
[40:35] marketing to the new consumer everyday.
[40:38] And that's more lucrative than trying to find the 10 of you and
[40:41] me who exist. And it's not just ten of us.
[40:43] It's a lot of you listen to the show are smart.
[40:45] I get it. But like just look at the
[40:47] numbers on our real deal. If you really like us, go like
[40:50] and subscribe comment on this because we're not we don't have
[40:52] a million subscribers to listen to our postgame shows.
[40:55] Like more people will listen to some clown go and make a clown
[40:59] of himself about the postgame, even if he has no idea what
[41:02] actually happened. And but yeah, just some thoughts
[41:05] there because I think about this a lot, Joel.
[41:07] And the reality is if we had an easy answer, this show could
[41:10] stay alive. But we don't.
[41:11] And it it's been a battle to keep this show alive for the
[41:13] same reason the the unit economics, you know.
[41:18] Yeah, I think it's. Cool that I think this is
[41:22] probably this past 10 minutes is probably the at least for for
[41:25] me, this is probably the sharpest or most precise.
[41:28] We've been speaking for a couple years now, but these like the
[41:31] most precise. We've leave this thesis out of
[41:34] what has happened or what's happening.
[41:39] And I think maybe my 1 push back.
[41:42] I have is. I don't know that I've fully
[41:47] resigned that I've, I don't know no, my, my push back is
[41:51] something like I think that point you made about what does
[41:54] it look like to curate the experience.
[41:57] So I those two categories of fans you spoke about of the fan
[42:01] who I'm going to use, we were to domain expert who's just
[42:05] watching casually and domain experts also has serious takes
[42:09] or how sharp I've taken some of my recent work on my I've known
[42:13] actually life mission, but some of my personal goal to think
[42:18] about how to convert those fans. So I've the old last thing I
[42:22] wrote was a oh, wait, this is actually related.
[42:25] The last essay I wrote on bonus bands.
[42:27] Wow. I was what happens that essay
[42:29] where I read about the water sports converging on the title
[42:32] of the essays What happens when you get the smartest people in
[42:36] the world thinking about sports October 31st.
[42:40] That was the last essay I wrote for Ballers bands, but also
[42:43] because that I that I'd seen some in some sense kind of
[42:46] marked the transition of what I'm now looking at thinking
[42:50] about doing like what the extent to which I want to continue
[42:53] engaging in sports. So it is a OK for that fan you
[42:56] described who is a like domain experts was watching casually.
[43:02] I'm like, OK, what what do we need to do?
[43:03] What's nice? What could be done?
[43:05] Do we need to do to convince such a fan that it is worthwhile
[43:10] to apply some of their new in sports for say both of us?
[43:16] If say I will start a sports institution or I was leading or
[43:19] development sports institution, In what ways could I directly
[43:23] draw on on lean on those the expertise from those people.
[43:27] I kind of want that I give a give a broad spill of off just
[43:32] tweet me about United. I gave me some of the people who
[43:35] subscribe to my blog are the former coach of the wall stop
[43:39] chop chess players, which is so Magnus Cousins coach former
[43:43] coach for like a decade. He's also a United fan and found
[43:46] my account solely of just me casually tweeting about United.
[43:52] I have technical director. Of a national cricket team
[43:55] former engineering manager at a multi Boeing director company
[43:59] founders state commissioner in my home country doctors or
[44:02] physicians high school classmates are announcing new
[44:05] software grads. So you do have a broad spectrum
[44:07] of people who by any means outside sports are doing
[44:11] reasonable like doing making headway in their own areas.
[44:16] I think I'm, I don't have sharp ideas about how to like very
[44:21] sharp ideas, but this kind of reason we wanted to work
[44:23] together of the I think it might be worth the intellectual
[44:29] efforts to think about ways to design experiences to win,
[44:34] almost win like buying or win these people over.
[44:37] Those are the reason I cannot come back on this part.
[44:38] I find this competition worthwhile, but also the kinds
[44:41] of people who would have tracked and it's the only reason I still
[44:43] have my blog now in terms of like the distribution and
[44:48] marketing, yes, that is not the big thing of compared to these
[44:52] those larger entities. It is like it was you're being
[44:55] out competed. If you're not putting out
[44:58] mindless slop content every day, you're essentially not going to
[45:02] have your content land on the feet or at the.
[45:05] Feet of the people, you. Want to but also it's just
[45:08] easier in the yeah, it's just in person content and we'll skip
[45:12] that in person as just described Anthropic to have recently
[45:15] started like the new ways of like I thought the cafe pop up
[45:20] cafes in New York City and a lot of these tech companies I think
[45:23] are also now leaning in on the. How can we create, curate an in
[45:28] person experience for the kind of consumer or the kind of it's
[45:36] actually, I mean really some of what you're doing is building a
[45:38] cult, but for the kind. Of person, we want some so the
[45:41] kind of person we want in our sphere I think sports is kind of
[45:47] primed in general. I'd, I'd say football.
[45:49] We talk about football here, but.
[45:50] Sports in general is kind of primed or similar kind of
[45:55] investigation. I've I've not done any
[45:58] elementary research, but I have thousands of bits.
[46:00] It'll be very interesting to look at the just background, how
[46:04] many thousand or million hours are spent by some particular
[46:07] demographic watching sports, like doing sports and sports
[46:11] adjacent things. Every year we talk about all
[46:15] people going like using social media for seven hours and stuff
[46:18] like that. If we get more specific and look
[46:21] at similar numbers for sports consumption.
[46:23] I think we'd find that a huge chunk of, say, the teenage early
[46:29] college population are still spending similar hours or clunks
[46:34] and thousands of hours on. Sports so what's what they what
[46:38] there has to be something else there.
[46:39] I think maybe there's just like a the same way the people doing
[46:44] ads have figured out that as an open space and liberalizing with
[46:47] the tech companies to garnish or access those hours or those
[46:51] eyeballs. I don't think similar work has
[46:53] been done in oh. There's some opportunity to just
[46:55] kind of work that kind of work in sports.
[46:59] Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot of untapped passion for sure
[47:02] across sports, no question. Yeah, it's just, it's a it's a
[47:07] hard work. It's a lot of hard work.
[47:10] A big full circle moment for me was just doing the episode I I
[47:14] did an episode recently on an expose on by Rihanna,
[47:17] neutrogenomics person. She had left the club and talked
[47:20] a lot of shit about the doctors. It was one side of the story,
[47:22] but I think just doing it and realizing what her social media
[47:26] presence look like versus mine, I'm just like, oh, she talks
[47:29] about his health. And I'm just like, yeah, like, I
[47:32] think in general, what happens is you just have to decide what
[47:36] it is, you know, really well. And I think when it comes to the
[47:41] health and biology stuff, I can lose myself in that quite a bit.
[47:44] And for me, that domain is the calling.
[47:48] So I don't know if I'll have the answer, but someone will find
[47:50] the answer, no question. I think the other thing is that
[47:54] there isn't much demand for average and that's why I've like
[47:57] this show could be so much more. But like like I do have a vision
[48:01] for what that brand would look like.
[48:02] I think. I think exclusive clubs are
[48:05] timeless, Joel. I think if there was a Man
[48:08] United exclusive club that gave you insane experiences,
[48:12] socialization, physical in person experiences, better
[48:16] access to content outside the club.
[48:19] So it's not just content about the team losing, but beneficial
[48:23] to you even when they are losing, like education about
[48:26] what's happening around the club, interviewing people who
[48:28] work different positions, learning the nuances of how they
[48:31] affect the team. If you could cover something
[48:34] like art and like treat it like a documentary and make make the
[48:38] whole club a living, breathing entity that's special, then I
[48:42] think I think you could actually appeal to like any type of
[48:45] consumer. But the initial investment for
[48:48] those things is really high. And it's not, it's, it's
[48:51] ultimately like a want and not a need.
[48:54] And I think that's where the trouble is because like,
[48:56] honestly, like when people get pressed economically, I don't
[48:59] think they're going to spend as much on, on this.
[49:01] Like if they they might have to pull back on sports sometimes.
[49:04] And I think that's a challenge. It's, it's like an every man's
[49:07] game. But inherently appealing to the
[49:10] every man at scale is not easy with a nympho product, for
[49:14] example. Like as a football club, you can
[49:16] do it. But then to create a derivative
[49:18] product around that and appeal to the common man and give it
[49:21] mass appeal and make it affordable and all that, it can
[49:24] get challenging is all I'm saying.
[49:25] But it is very interesting to think about because, yeah, the
[49:28] numbers go up. There's more people with eyes on
[49:31] the game than people who know how to, like, turn that into
[49:34] kinetic energy and money for sure.
[49:41] Yeah, that is also all sharp thoughts.
[49:45] And, and I, I don't know this guy I like, I like this
[49:48] conversation because I'm actually probably going to
[49:50] rewatch this right after and take some notes because I think,
[49:57] yeah, just a lot of thoughts, a lot of same thoughts.
[50:01] And I'm just grateful that we have the chats First off.
[50:05] But also just lots of thinking about in terms of my brain is
[50:11] foggy, but let's think. About it in terms of what next
[50:14] in sports, I think we're going to answer that, like what next?
[50:17] What next for you? What next for me?
[50:19] Like what am I digging into? I think for me what next is I
[50:23] actually recently wrote like AI told one of my friends to
[50:27] pretend as though he was an investor asking me hey.
[50:30] Joel, what is the next opportunity?
[50:32] What is worthwhile to build and? Investing in sports?
[50:35] And so I was like, just pretend you're an investor and asked me
[50:38] to write you an e-mail. And so I wrote him an e-mail
[50:41] with like 5. Points I don't know if I'll.
[50:44] Share all of them because I wrote in my e-mail recently with
[50:46] A5, OK, these are the five things I think people should be,
[50:50] I think are the big openings. And one of them, yeah, building
[50:55] a sporty. Pitch, let's see what I have
[50:57] here. One of them is, let's see, I
[51:00] have time and time identification in general.
[51:03] So and now on some in some levels, people say there's no
[51:08] that discoverability issue in sports like the good people know
[51:11] the good players. And because you have people on
[51:13] the ground here and show media is open, the good players are
[51:16] getting funneled. People know about or know of the
[51:19] scouts in the club. Big clubs have pretty extensive
[51:22] networks. However, we still have a small
[51:28] like identification issue in Africa in general, whereas we
[51:31] have too many players and not enough train eyes.
[51:34] That's one I have, the one we've just spoke about of
[51:38] opportunities for technical. And smart people in domains to
[51:40] think about and apply insights into football or sports
[51:43] problems. And then I have bits about just
[51:49] optimization in general of discovery, which is not an
[51:53] issue. Which means like talent profile
[51:56] analysis, being able to see the player outside like abstract and
[52:00] see the player outside the context in which the area is
[52:02] super useful. Yeah, essentially again, but I
[52:06] think we're just at that point where even when I start writing
[52:09] all these problems. These are very different.
[52:10] Problems that from Joel, Joel that I've written a couple years
[52:13] ago and all these problems now I might just be there are problems
[52:17] that could be if you switch a couple words out.
[52:20] This is just a What does it take to build a great institution?
[52:24] Problem like is a problem that is very adjacent to what does it
[52:27] take to build in any great institution in our society like
[52:31] in the age we're living in. Yeah, yeah, totally.
[52:36] No, that makes sense I I will say on the flip side, my future
[52:39] is I used to have the aspiration of working in sports for the
[52:42] longest time and finding a niche.
[52:44] But I I've kind of realized that with these service and
[52:48] entertainment businesses, there's a element of you just
[52:51] being part of the Crown gallery, even on the show sometimes, like
[52:54] with the comments and the way people talk to you and like
[52:57] you're just there for other people's entertainment.
[52:59] And when you, that's where the travel, like the money comes
[53:03] from, but also the travel and the toll it takes on your
[53:06] health. It's everything has a high cost.
[53:08] And yeah, I've been wondering what to do because my dream
[53:12] would be to kind of help Real Madrid with their health stuff.
[53:14] That's something I think about a lot.
[53:16] But at the same time, it's not always.
[53:21] Sorry, I just muted your mic in case it was echoing.
[53:24] But yeah, the basically, if there is a, if there is a need
[53:29] to kind of become an independent person who controls your time,
[53:33] it's not actually ideal to be in sports if you if you kind of
[53:38] want to like manage your own life, focus on your health to go
[53:41] hang out on the beach in the sun.
[53:44] And with everything I've learned through health and experience
[53:46] through health, that's why we're having this convo of like, on
[53:48] some level, trying to pretend I'm still the same kid who wants
[53:52] to like work in sports doesn't work for me anymore.
[53:54] I'm not that kid. And yeah, I think for me, I
[53:58] would love to supply products that these teams use and, and
[54:02] things of that nature. But I have come to accept that
[54:06] dealing with the politics and the people behind these big
[54:08] teams is not always worth the money.
[54:11] Like they're in if if like my goal has become more financial
[54:14] over time. And I've realized, like the
[54:16] glory of sports comes at such a high cost to the soul, to the
[54:22] spirit, to the body, to your sleep cycles.
[54:25] And I'm not sure I'm willing to pay that anymore.
[54:27] So I think like, it takes a special personality to really be
[54:32] in the arena. And yeah.
[54:34] And and I will say this, though, like the easiest solution with
[54:37] this show and everything seems to be to put up like a offering
[54:41] for football clubs so that there's a natural endpoint to
[54:43] this. And it's just that type of work.
[54:46] You know, it's it can be very busy.
[54:47] It can require a lot of travel. You may not have the impact you
[54:51] desire. And then the story is not told
[54:54] the way you want. Like the reality is a lot of
[54:56] these opportunities, they're coming in a way where you don't
[54:58] control how you get to execute the end of that job.
[55:01] Like they kind of don't. They kind of expect you to
[55:04] figure it out for yourself. And the politics and dressing
[55:07] room environment, like at Real Madrid are bad.
[55:09] But in general, it's not always as simple as getting your way in
[55:13] terms of implementing the things you want.
[55:16] So putting all that together, I don't have the same burning
[55:20] desire to, let's say, help Real Madrid stave off injuries that I
[55:24] did before. Like, there's a lot of ways to
[55:26] wealth. And I will say this, I do feel
[55:29] like experiencing success in wealth outside sports and then
[55:33] coming back to it could be in that way to go about it as well.
[55:36] Because, you know, a lot of these owners are people who have
[55:39] succeeded in completely disconnected business domains.
[55:42] But yeah, like, in general, like, how much persuasive power
[55:46] do you have in these organizations?
[55:48] There's a pretty low ceiling for most human beings.
[55:52] And if you're not going to get to have that power and tell the
[55:55] story and live out your dreams, like it's just good to be
[55:59] realistic, I think. And I think I've started
[56:00] becoming very realistic. Like I this last year was I just
[56:04] cared more about working with civilians.
[56:06] I wasn't thinking as much about athletes.
[56:07] And it's interesting, like keeping the door open, but aware
[56:13] that, you know, it's a very strange world.
[56:16] And I think not being attached to the expectations of, oh, I
[56:18] need to go there and do this. And I think that's what happens
[56:21] when we're young. We're all given these ideas of,
[56:23] oh, I need to be the guy lifting the Premier League.
[56:25] Like, you want to be that guy. But realizing some of it is just
[56:29] a big ego trap and marketing trap has been big for me.
[56:35] Yeah. And I think I'd add one more and
[56:39] see, just back to something we spoke about halfway through this
[56:43] podcast of realizing that community can be important.
[56:48] And so whatever I do. I think really the goal I'm
[56:52] working. Towards is in more ways can I
[56:54] build the community or attract, build and like sustain a
[56:59] community of thinkers or people that I want to spend time with.
[57:04] So whether through sports, like whether about sports or just at
[57:07] large in general, I think there are definitely more.
[57:12] Yeah, there are ways to there are ways to do that.
[57:14] And so that is probably even a good entry point into this
[57:22] friend I was talking about who I told to pretend that investor
[57:25] holds into category of smart friend who is now software
[57:28] engineer that watches sports casually.
[57:30] And I told him, hey, you know, there are a lot.
[57:32] Of problems to solve in sports, if you're, if you're interested
[57:35] in side question, you know, a lot of tech adjusting problems
[57:38] that are simple, straightforward, but the cracked
[57:41] techs folks, cracked tech folks are just like, we'll just write.
[57:46] There's more money for them or more.
[57:48] There's no reason for them to solve that problem in sports
[57:50] when they can go work in Google or Amazon like all my
[57:53] classmates. And so I say that casually and I
[57:55] guess let's, let's talk and help on these calls and watch the
[57:58] games together. And maybe through this small 12
[58:02] US, five of us, maybe we'll have a community of 10 people.
[58:05] Who have this mixed interest some in tech and some in sports
[58:08] and good things will come out of it.
[58:10] So I think creating community I found is in its own, in its own
[58:15] way, like a very autotelic and self-sustaining experience.
[58:21] I agree. I agree completely.
[58:23] I agree completely. And yeah, it's I find it's
[58:26] actually quite easy to do or easier to find that commonality
[58:30] in the health space where we have a lot of shared loss, so to
[58:33] speak, and not always easy to find the common ground with the
[58:37] different archetypes of fans. But I am curious to see where
[58:40] you go and where this show goes and where all these spaces go.
[58:44] You know, there are people who do a good job with it.
[58:46] And Sid Low is a good example. I always bring him up.
[58:48] He he mixes history well. And like, like, if you want to
[58:52] just consume an elevated consumption, like I would
[58:55] totally subscribe to his stuff all the time, you know, and
[59:00] that's a great example. And yeah, there we definitely
[59:04] need more of that. And it ties into the idea of,
[59:06] like, you know, abstract commentary elevate sports
[59:08] consumption. The type of space you design
[59:11] kind of dictates the sort of person you attract.
[59:13] And yeah, it's a whole interesting convo.
[59:16] But, Joelle, this has been a lot of fun.
[59:18] Hit a whole hour now and excited to talk again in the future.
[59:22] I imagine you're not watching too much Man United.
[59:24] But it's all good. It's not like we only worry
[59:26] about Champions League contenders here anyways.
[59:29] I will choose to not comment about this because of the United
[59:32] fans. Who?
[59:34] Watch this after. But I've not actually.
[59:36] I think I've only watched. I I don't know, I think United
[59:41] won a game recently and I watched the highlights.
[59:43] Otherwise I don't remember the last full game of Manchester
[59:47] United that I watched. I've watched Arsenal recently
[59:49] though, a couple of Arsenal games.
[59:52] That's fun. That's fun.
[59:54] Yeah. No, that's funny.
[59:55] I like watching Arsenal too. They're actually fun to watch.
[59:58] Physically imposing teams are fun.
[1:00:01] Well, that all sounds great, Joelle, so thanks for coming on
[1:00:04] everyone. You can find Joelle on Twitter.
[1:00:05] We'll be tagging him there as always.
[1:00:08] Joelle, thank you and adios, awesome.
[1:00:11] Cheers. Bye bye.

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