# Conversation 2 with Lisa Barrett, Ben Lyons, and Karen Quigley

An episode of [Thoughtforms Life](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1805908099), 24 Mar 2026, 59 min.

Audio: https://media.transistor.fm/5c4bcb71/155441b5.mp3

This is a second conversation with Lisa Barrett ( Karen Quigley ( and Benjamin Lyons ( about Relational Realism, allostasis, and questions of mind/body/behavior. CHAPTERS: (00:00) Rethinking emotion universals (09:34) Brain evolution and allostasis (17:25) Predictive processing and signaling (30:05) Objectivity and first-person science (38:45) Flexible body-world boundaries (45:46) Relational meaning in perception (52:06) Embodiment, morphospace and realism PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing SOCIAL LINKS: Podcast Website: https://thoughtforms-life.aipodcast.ing YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3pVafx6EZqXVI2V_Efu2uw Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thoughtforms-life/id1805908099 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7JCmtoeH53neYyZeOZ6ym5 Twitter: https://x.com/drmichaellevin Blog: https://thoughtforms.life The Levin Lab: https://drmichaellevin.org

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