# Your Anxious-Avoidant Relationship Can Work—Here's How ft. Rikki Cloos

An episode of [Needy No More: Anxious Attachment Healing](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1795356174), 13 Apr 2025, 58 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/100fbac88/podcast/play/101201483/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-3-12%2F398292992-44100-2-7167d4ba5dd8b.mp3

Is your relationship stuck in the anxious-avoidant "trap" or a cycle of pushing and pulling, ups and downs? In this powerful episode, I sit down with relationship writer Rikki Cloos (@anxiousheartsguide on Instagram and TikTok) to talk about why anxious-avoidant relationships feel so hard—and how to make the dynamic more secure. Here's what we discuss: • 🔁 How Rikki broke up with her now-husband eight times early on in their relationship—and what finally helped them break the anxious-avoidant cycle • 🧠 Why avoidant partners aren't “bad” or emotionally broken—and how anxious partners can unintentionally push them further away • 🔍 The surprising ways anxious behavior can create avoidant responses in otherwise secure people • 💬 How to stop blaming avoidant attachers and start reflecting on your own role in the anxious-avoidant dynamic • 💖 What self-compassion actually looks like—and how changing your inner dialogue can transform every relationship in your life, by starting with the one you have with yourself • 🔧 The art of healthy conflict resolution—why it’s essential for growth and how to make conflict feel connecting instead of catastrophic • 📈 Why doing the work on yourself (even solo) can shift the entire energy of your relationships, whether platonic or romantic • 🛠️ Practical tools, real-life scripts, and tangible phrases you can use in moments of conflict or disconnection • 🌱 How secure relationships aren’t found—they’re built through emotional maturity, communication, and mutual effort Healing resources for anyone struggling with anxious attachment: • Read dozens of free blogs on how to heal the anxious attachment style on my website, crackliffe.com • Grab a copy of my new book, Needy No More: The Journey From Anxious to Secure Attachment, at crackliffe.com/needy • Explore my downloadable healing toolkit for anxious attachers at crackliffe.com/starterkit • Learn more about the Needy No More coaching program and set up a free consultation at crackliffe.com/coaching • Follow @crackliffe on Instagram and TikTok for tons more content on all things healing anxious attachment To connect with Rikki Cloos, visit her website at http://anxiousheartsguide.com/. Keywords: anxious attachment, relationship dynamics, attachment theory, self-awareness, self-compassion, conflict resolution, healing relationships, secure attachment, personal growth, attachment styles, compassion, relationships, healing, communication, emotional intelligence, self-awareness, personal growth, vulnerability

## Transcript

[0:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to Needy No More, the podcast
[0:04] dedicated to healing the anxious attachment style.
[0:07] I'm your host, anxious attachment style coach and
[0:10] author Chris Ratcliffe. I've helped thousands of people
[0:14] across 6 continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment
[0:18] through my books, workshops, digital downloads, and coaching
[0:22] program. I'm honored to carry on that
[0:24] mission here, sharing tools and techniques, principles and
[0:28] practices for you to explore on your journey to growing more
[0:33] secure. Welcome back everyone.
[0:35] I am very excited to welcome our second ever guest, Ricky Clues,
[0:42] who is a relationship writer. You might also be familiar with
[0:46] her from her Instagram account at Anxious Hearts Guide.
[0:50] She's also the Co host of the podcast Ricky and Jimmy on
[0:56] Relationships. She's an expert in attachment
[0:59] styles, posts a lot of really helpful content and it is my
[1:03] distinct pleasure to welcome you on the show.
[1:06] Ricky, thanks for being here. Yeah, Thank you so much, Chris.
[1:09] I had no idea I was your second guest.
[1:11] This feels like a like a special privilege.
[1:14] I like it. Well, thank you.
[1:16] Well, I appreciate you carving out the time.
[1:18] You're one of my absolute favorite people in the
[1:22] attachment space to follow. You and I have been in contact
[1:26] for several years and this feels like just an opportunity to chat
[1:30] with a friend who cares about attachment theory too.
[1:33] It does. I think our missions are well
[1:36] aligned to everything. Everything that you post that I
[1:39] see, I'm always like, I like that guy.
[1:40] He gets it. Thank you.
[1:42] I appreciate that. I wanted to open up our
[1:45] conversation just by asking you a very simple question, which is
[1:51] how did you get into this stuff? Yeah.
[1:53] When did you find attachment theory and why did it resonate
[1:57] with you? Yeah, that's such a good place
[1:59] to start to set the scene. I'm like 3233 and my marriage
[2:05] was falling apart. I'd been with my with him for 12
[2:08] years, which is a, which is a while that's quite a haul.
[2:11] And it, it was OK in the beginning, but then it just
[2:14] gradually went downhill and I didn't know why.
[2:16] And then by the time everything kind of went up in smoke, I had
[2:21] really started digging into the psychology textbooks because
[2:26] that's the type of person I am. When stuff starts to hit the
[2:29] fan, I like to figure out why. So I've been doing a lot of
[2:32] reading and I kind of just stumbled across attachment
[2:36] theory. This was, I don't know,
[2:39] 20/16/2017. So it wasn't such a it wasn't
[2:44] such a popular topic as it is now.
[2:46] I think attached had had not been out too long, but I got my
[2:50] hands on that book and then many others, mostly dry psychology
[2:54] textbooks, because it wasn't a market full of popular reading
[2:57] on that topic. I was like, this is me, This is
[3:01] my relationship, and this is this is what's happening to us.
[3:05] Unfortunately, the book attached, although I really
[3:08] liked it, was pretty hard on avoidant attachment.
[3:13] The author, Levine, he's come out to say too, that he wishes
[3:16] he would have written it differently because it really
[3:18] doesn't paint avoidant attachment very hopefully.
[3:22] And I have to say it's one of the reasons that I decided to
[3:26] leave my marriage because that book didn't give me any hope
[3:29] that we could fix what was going on.
[3:31] I recognized myself as incredibly anxiously attached
[3:35] and my my now ex-husband as incredibly avoidantly attached.
[3:39] And we would sit in marriage counseling just saying, hey,
[3:42] we've identified the problem and we're not compatible.
[3:46] So this is over. And that's where my journey
[3:48] started. We split up and I realized that
[3:52] if I if I didn't fix or at least address my anxious tendencies
[3:57] and thoughts, I was going to find myself right back in that
[4:00] pattern. I was going to chase away the
[4:02] healthy, secure partners that I was hoping to attract.
[4:05] So that's where it all started. I really just threw everything
[4:08] in the kitchen sink at my attachment issues.
[4:11] Slowly, little by little, they got better.
[4:15] And then things started feeling really easy in love.
[4:18] And I thought I'm a writer, so I thought, I want to tell people
[4:23] about this. Instagram and my book were my
[4:26] were my way of talking to the world about it.
[4:28] I didn't want anybody else to feel like I did or go through
[4:31] what I did. So that's, that's how my mission
[4:34] started. I think yours is pretty similar,
[4:35] right? It is, yes.
[4:38] I was just going to say that, you know, there's so many
[4:40] similarities between our journeys here.
[4:43] It's, it is uncanny. It's very interesting.
[4:46] I think there's also a universality to it, right, that
[4:50] makes attachment theory so relatable and so helpful for
[4:55] many people. There's this moment of discovery
[4:57] where you kind of find out that, OK, the way I'm showing up in my
[5:02] relationships, this is a thing like this has been studied, it
[5:06] is a known phenomenon that has a label.
[5:09] And I'm not the only one who struggles like this totally.
[5:13] And even. Regardless of.
[5:14] We can do something about it, you know.
[5:16] I mean, that's the best part. It's not just like, oh, I've got
[5:19] this disorder that I'll always have trouble with.
[5:21] It's like, it's not a disorder at all.
[5:24] It's a pattern of behaviors that we can change not to totally
[5:27] interrupt. But you know, this is my
[5:29] favorite topic, just like you. Wonderfully said, Yeah, it's not
[5:33] static. It's not fixed.
[5:34] You can always evolve to a more secure place, to the more secure
[5:39] side of the attachment spectrum. And that's the hope that it
[5:44] sounds like you were also kind of missing when you were looking
[5:48] to resolve the differences in your marriage.
[5:53] I talk to people all day long all around the world about
[5:56] attachment theory. And I've coached folks across
[6:00] the world and one of the most persistent themes or things that
[6:06] I hear from folks is I never want to date another avoidance.
[6:10] I know I'm always so sad when I hear that.
[6:12] Yeah, keep going on that. Yeah.
[6:15] What do you, how do I, how do you respond to that?
[6:17] I know how I respond to it and it's I hope it's similar to how.
[6:21] You I told them to look at the person and not the label.
[6:25] Yeah, that's. Because good.
[6:26] Advice. Look, not all Christians are the
[6:30] same. Not all Democrats are the same
[6:32] or Republicans are the same. Like when you stereotype people
[6:36] and you put folks who might have similar qualities, yeah, into a
[6:40] bucket and then judge them. Yeah, it's dehumanizing.
[6:44] And it's using labels in a really, really limiting way,
[6:50] because humans are complex and highly nuanced and we don't
[6:54] always fit into neat, tidy boxes.
[6:57] Absolutely. And so that's why I encourage
[6:59] folks to look for someone who is self aware, someone who is
[7:04] willing to put in the effort to grow the relationship, who has
[7:08] at least some skills when it comes to effective communication
[7:13] and conflict resolution and repair.
[7:17] No one's going to do this stuff perfectly.
[7:19] Even the most secure people struggle with insecurities and
[7:23] might have avoidant tendencies from time to time, so it's
[7:28] really limiting to just throw out an entire category of people
[7:33] because they've identified with a label that says that they are
[7:37] avoidant. Really well said.
[7:38] I think another important thing, this is something that I was
[7:41] missing in the beginning of my journey too, was that when we
[7:44] spend all of our time pointing at the other person, what's
[7:48] wrong with them, we're missing all the ways that we are
[7:51] actually like enabling that dynamic in our own relationship.
[7:55] I, of course, I started off dating post divorcing.
[7:58] No more avoidance. I'm going to avoid the
[8:01] avoidance. You know, you can almost make
[8:02] that a bumper sticker. And that attitude, it gave me 0
[8:07] awareness about how I was kind of perpetuating that in anybody
[8:12] that I would find I could make secure men avoidant with my
[8:16] behavior. And I didn't realize that
[8:18] either. So that's one of the biggest
[8:20] things I try to tell my audience when they try to bash the
[8:23] avoidances. Hey, when when we're spending
[8:26] too much time focusing on what other people are doing wrong, we
[8:29] are not looking at our own contributions to this.
[8:32] And that can, that can, you know, it can taint even super
[8:36] healthy relationships that we find or not super healthy
[8:38] relationships, but it can, it can flavor our interactions with
[8:42] no, with anybody that we find, no matter what their attachment
[8:44] style. 100% yes, Amen to that. The goal is always to grow more
[8:51] secure. It's not just to find someone
[8:54] secure because you can repeat patterns with similar people.
[8:57] You repeat what you don't repair.
[8:59] And yes, other people do respond to our energy.
[9:04] That's what a dynamic is. You're responding to their
[9:06] energy, they're responding to yours.
[9:09] And that's also why there's hope here for folks listening or
[9:14] watching who might be in this kind of anxious avoidant
[9:19] relationship or dynamic. Because when one person shifts
[9:23] their approach, it provides for the opportunity for the dynamic
[9:27] to shift. It doesn't guarantee it.
[9:30] It's also not about outcomes, right?
[9:33] It does help when you can show up from a more secure place,
[9:36] when you can own and embody who you are and what you need.
[9:40] People respond a lot better to that.
[9:43] They do, even. That's a big focus of your
[9:45] content too. It is.
[9:46] It's a huge focus because this was such a good segue into I was
[9:50] going to say the the most exciting person that I met post
[9:53] divorce was now my current husband, Chris.
[9:56] It's funny, his name is also Chris.
[9:58] And he, he was about as avoidant as you could possibly be.
[10:04] Like a jerk. I made him take the test because
[10:07] that's who I was back in the day.
[10:09] I made him take the attachment test and he scored all the way
[10:12] on the end of the avoidance spectrum.
[10:14] And I thought, oh boy, I've got my work cut out for me, you
[10:17] know, like. This is.
[10:18] Did that freak you out? It did.
[10:20] It did freak me out, but like any good anxious attacher, I
[10:23] couldn't quit him because he was just so you know that it's, it's
[10:27] a, it's almost magnetic the way those two get pulled together,
[10:31] those two sides. I, I really thought, I'm not
[10:34] ready to let this one go. I'm just going to work really
[10:37] hard on my side of things and see how that works because I
[10:41] wasn't, I wasn't crazy enough to try to convince him to dive deep
[10:45] into this with me. Thank goodness I didn't do that.
[10:48] That would have pushed him away. But I gotta say, it was maybe
[10:51] just like a year of really intensely working on my own side
[10:54] of things. And I gotta tell him, Chris,
[10:56] he's incredibly secure now. And that's not him diving in and
[11:01] reading every book. I think that our own security
[11:05] can really pull our partner up to our level if we're if we're
[11:09] really rock solid in it. I believe that wholeheartedly,
[11:12] too. Talk to me about how you found
[11:16] that security for yourself. Yeah, I think that's a big focus
[11:20] of your first book. Right, it is.
[11:22] It is, yes. Anxious hearts guide.
[11:23] Yes, the anxious hearts guide, my first book, I was still like
[11:27] largely single while I wrote it. And so thank goodness I had I
[11:31] had complete self focus on that one, which I think is a great
[11:35] place to start for anxious attachers.
[11:36] It should start with us. You know, I identified a bunch
[11:40] of really key things that were holding me back.
[11:43] Maybe, maybe one of the biggest ones was I had an incredibly
[11:47] negative inner monologue. You know, myself dialogue with
[11:51] myself was awful. I was not my own best self
[11:55] advocate. I was I was the angry voice
[11:57] inside me that was shaming me for everything I did.
[12:00] That held me back a lot until I, I want to say Kristin Neff is my
[12:06] favorite author on self compassion and learning to be
[12:10] more self compassionate with yourself, that inner voice so
[12:13] that you're not going, ah, you're so dumb for doing that.
[12:16] You know those terrible things that everybody says to
[12:18] themselves. My inner voice is super kind.
[12:20] Now that doesn't mean I'm always 100% of the time super kind, but
[12:25] the vast majority of the time I've got like a really gentle
[12:29] inner voice that's saying that sucked.
[12:31] I didn't like that at all, but I'm going to here's what I'm
[12:34] going to do differently and here's why it's understandable
[12:36] that you made that mistake when you're not beating yourself up
[12:39] for your mistakes and it really helps get you through all the
[12:43] other steps toward security. So I want to say that's that's a
[12:46] great place to start is working on that inner voice because the
[12:50] other things that I needed to do, which were getting myself
[12:54] out of the house alone, you know, not depending on somebody
[12:57] else, like a partner or a love interest to make my day special
[13:01] and wonderful. I needed I needed an inner
[13:04] cheerleader to be able to help me through that because it was
[13:06] kind of scary in the beginning. I mean, scary's sounds extreme,
[13:10] but it was the right word. The idea of leaving my house and
[13:13] going to eat at a restaurant alone or go to the rock climbing
[13:17] gym and have people see me walk in single, you know, that kind
[13:21] of stuff legitimately freaked me out in the beginning.
[13:24] So having that kind inner voice going, you can do this.
[13:28] This is the thing that we're working toward and good job just
[13:31] getting out of the house. Even if you didn't make it all
[13:33] the way to the gym today, that that was immensely helpful.
[13:37] Look, they call it self-conscious for a reason.
[13:41] When your consciousness is directed in such an intense way,
[13:45] internally it feels like you've got the light of all of your
[13:50] attention on yourself. It's a lot of pressure and
[13:53] anxious attachers are some of the most self deprecating, self
[13:57] judge, mental self critical people out there.
[14:01] And yet we're also some of the most empathetic and naturally
[14:05] empathic. And so we're using some of those
[14:08] abilities to our own detriment, which is really damaging.
[14:13] And often times, as I say to clients, it is an amalgamation
[14:18] of the most critical voices that we experienced growing up and in
[14:23] previous relationships. So we end up taking the weapons
[14:27] of others and using them against ourselves and then asking
[14:30] ourselves, why am I so hurt? I mean, you're beating yourself
[14:33] up, but that's why you're hurt, of course.
[14:36] So changing that inner dialogue for yourself, was it
[14:39] affirmations? Was it like journaling?
[14:42] How did you bridge that gap for yourself?
[14:45] Was it just intervening or? Yeah, that's a good question.
[14:49] I think I was reading several different books at the same time
[14:52] while I was working on that, as I do so probably a mixture of
[14:56] different techniques. I don't love affirmations and
[14:59] that's not to say that they don't, they're not great for
[15:01] other people, but for me, the sentences felt really fake.
[15:05] So they they didn't do anything for me personally because I
[15:08] still had that voice going. You don't really believe that in
[15:10] the background. So rather than affirmations, I
[15:14] think how can I say this, OK, here's a good example.
[15:19] Like you're lovable wouldn't have done anything that wouldn't
[15:22] have touched me because I didn't believe it, right?
[15:25] But I did believe that I, I would say you're doing things to
[15:30] increase your lovability right now.
[15:32] And that's awesome. So I think I was more praising
[15:35] my efforts instead of trying to tell myself things that I didn't
[15:39] really believe because I, I did believe I was doing things to
[15:42] change the situation and I was very proud of that.
[15:45] So maybe like ultra realistic affirmations that.
[15:49] Authentic ones. Yeah, very authentic, right?
[15:52] I didn't say if I didn't believe it, I didn't say it again
[15:54] because I was like, that's not going to help me.
[15:56] I also worked really hard being a writer.
[16:00] Journaling comes very easy to me.
[16:02] So my journal was just rife with, if I felt anything
[16:06] negative or self deprecating, I wrote that down and then I wrote
[16:11] arguments against it or you know, or ways that I could
[16:15] address that if it was something that I, that I did believe.
[16:18] So that was very helpful. All the journaling about that
[16:21] helped me become more aware of it in the moment when it was
[16:23] happening to me in real life in real time.
[16:27] So that was super helpful. I also made sure to spend extra
[16:30] time with the people in my life who were just naturally very
[16:34] supportive. That was so helpful.
[16:36] My sister, who's always been one of my biggest cheerleaders, if I
[16:39] ever needed a pick me up, I could call her and she made me
[16:42] feel like a rock star. And I have an awesome best
[16:45] friend. He always knows exactly what to
[16:47] say when I'm upset. So that helped.
[16:50] This may sound cliche, but my mom is always a big pick me up.
[16:53] She was, I can do no wrong in her eyes.
[16:56] So that was nice. If I really needed to bring in
[16:59] the big guns, I'd call my mom. So those, those were some of the
[17:02] things that really changed the way that I talk to myself.
[17:05] Practice, I know nobody likes to hear that, but just practicing
[17:09] saying, you know, saying supportive things, it really
[17:11] does. You can really rewire that just
[17:14] by repetition I think. Amen to that.
[17:16] Yes, was just going to say that. Yeah, repetition plus
[17:19] consistency. That is what rewiring is all
[17:22] about. That's how the brain learns and
[17:25] learns to adjust. Yeah, it's wiring and it's
[17:29] pathways. So yes, practice does help.
[17:33] You got to put in the motions, even if you don't fully
[17:35] understand where it's going. Absolutely.
[17:37] And my favorite part of all that repetition too, is that speaking
[17:41] kindly to yourself feels good. It's not like it's not like
[17:44] dieting where you're like constantly thinking about the
[17:47] ice cream cone that you can't have.
[17:48] It's like saying something kind to yourself just feels a lot
[17:52] better than being hard on yourself.
[17:54] So I felt like that was actually a pretty easy 1 to get in a
[17:58] habit, get a new habit of. It's so relieving.
[18:00] I mean, when you're constantly beating yourself up, the
[18:03] internal dialogue that your space internally, it becomes
[18:07] defined by conflict and war. And yeah, how are you supposed
[18:11] to be at peace if you're at war with yourself?
[18:13] I mean, it's it's really difficult to have a sense of
[18:17] groundedness, of feeling stable when you're constantly berating
[18:22] yourself. So when you learn to change some
[18:26] of that dialogue, to maybe interrupt it and then replace it
[18:30] with something more loving, it's a breath of fresh air.
[18:35] I always say to people, if the way that other people speak to
[18:38] you matters, why would it not matter how you speak to
[18:41] yourself? Absolutely.
[18:43] And on that note, exactly, by speaking to myself kindly, it
[18:47] started to really lower my tolerance for other people
[18:50] speaking negatively to me in a big way.
[18:54] A big way. I can't believe the things that
[18:56] I used to let other people say to me and I would either believe
[19:00] or just let roll off my back. I don't, I don't do that now.
[19:03] And that took a lot of practice, too, to be able to speak up.
[19:06] And you don't have to be angry or harsh about it, but just a
[19:10] gentle word like, hey, that hurt or hey, that's not the way I
[19:15] want to have a conversation like this.
[19:17] Let's try that again. It really.
[19:19] Yeah. Yeah, it it, it changed.
[19:23] It changed all of my relationships, not just my
[19:25] romantic one, but literally everyone I interact with.
[19:28] It's different now in the best way.
[19:30] I love what you said too about your support system because one
[19:35] of the biggest things I espouse in my work is a concept I
[19:39] developed called emotional diversification.
[19:41] Wonderful. Yeah, that's in your book.
[19:43] Yes, exactly. Yes, thank you.
[19:45] And it's, it's like a pie chart approach, right.
[19:48] I'm borrowing this from the world of finance and investing.
[19:51] So it helps I think for the logical brain, for people that
[19:55] kind of think more that way and for us as anxious attachers, we
[19:59] do tend to live more in the logical rational mind versus the
[20:03] body. And so from that perspective, it
[20:07] just gives like a little visual where you can see, OK, right now
[20:11] I am very over invested in my romantic partnership.
[20:15] And by the way, it is OK to have a romantic partner.
[20:20] Take up a good amount of your time and your energy.
[20:23] Yeah, I'm glad. However, they cannot be your end
[20:28] all be all. They are just a human being.
[20:31] There's only so much that they can do for you and they're not a
[20:35] human need fulfilling ATM. You can't just go to them and
[20:39] take a withdrawal when it's convenient for you.
[20:43] And here's another thing, what if the universe takes them away
[20:46] right now? I'm saying even if even if
[20:48] they're fully 100% in and they love you so much and they're not
[20:51] going anywhere and they like spending 100% of their time with
[20:54] you, the universe can take that person away from you.
[20:58] And I know that's dark, but it's real and it is.
[21:03] And if if your entire happiness in the world hinges on one
[21:07] person, and the universe takes them away for one reason or
[21:09] another, what have you got, you know?
[21:11] What if you had 100% of your investments in Tesla?
[21:17] Yeah, recently and then watched that tank.
[21:20] It's This is why this example works for people, because it
[21:24] helps them to understand it's very risky.
[21:27] Yeah. When you do that, for some
[21:29] reason it's easier for people to understand that with their money
[21:31] than it is with their feelings and their heart.
[21:34] But it helps to drive the point home, I think.
[21:37] Yeah, that's what I do. We try to make it accessible and
[21:40] easy to understand. You know, you're very good at
[21:43] that too, I think. Thank you, thank you.
[21:45] It's exactly how I feel about you.
[21:48] And every piece of content that I see of yours, I'm like, yes,
[21:52] that's a magic phrase. That's a.
[21:53] Magic phrase. And I love how inclusive and
[21:57] also, quite frankly, vulnerable you are in your content sharing,
[22:02] you know, moments of conflict that you've had with Chris.
[22:07] Yeah. And talking about how you've
[22:09] worked through that. Yeah, totally.
[22:10] I'm, I'm trying to do that more. It's scary sharing actual pieces
[22:14] of yourself on the Internet. You know, it's, it's, it's very
[22:17] easy to throw out a tool or an idea that you get from somebody,
[22:23] somewhere else, someone or somewhere else.
[22:25] But throwing out actual examples from your own real life to the
[22:29] faceless Internet masses can be a little bit terrifying.
[22:32] I do like to do that whenever I think there's like a concrete
[22:36] take away that somebody might might learn something, it might
[22:38] make their life a little bit better.
[22:39] Conflict with my I hate even calling him my avoidant partner
[22:44] because it feels so secure and good now.
[22:45] But conflict with my partner was a really terrifying thing early
[22:50] on in our relationship, and I weirdly almost look forward to
[22:54] it now because it seems like we always, we always learn
[22:58] something new about each other in the process of conflict and
[23:02] especially afterwards, and it brings us closer than before the
[23:07] conflict happened. I know that's not going to be an
[23:10] easy sell because everybody hates conflict so much, but it
[23:12] can become something kind of weirdly good.
[23:15] It's an opportunity, when treated appropriately for each
[23:20] person within the relationship to better learn how to love the
[23:23] other person as well as themselves a bit better.
[23:27] I remind people that conflict is not the end of the relationship
[23:31] because many people equate conflict with abandonment.
[23:36] They observed this growing up and they've experienced this
[23:40] previously. I also think in our dating
[23:42] culture today, it's really easy to kind of throw people out when
[23:46] something happens that you don't like.
[23:48] Yeah, and that's the Amazon effect in the dating culture,
[23:51] too. It's like if this product
[23:53] doesn't work well for me, I could just order another one and
[23:55] it'll be at my door in less than a week.
[23:58] Yes, People become disposable just like things.
[24:02] Yeah, I love that phrasing. The Amazon effect.
[24:04] I haven't heard that yet. I don't know.
[24:06] I don't. Know if I got that somewhere I
[24:07] made it up, but that's what it reminds me of.
[24:11] It's so poignant. Yeah.
[24:12] It really drives, you know, the point home.
[24:14] It's really easy to replace someone, to dispose of them.
[24:17] Yeah. When something happens that you
[24:19] don't like. And yet conflict is the process
[24:22] by which the relationship becomes safer, more intimate,
[24:26] and the connection is actually able to deepen.
[24:29] And this drives home a really important point, which is that
[24:32] safe relationships aren't just found, they're.
[24:36] Yes, they're created, aren't they?
[24:38] Yes, I love that. I wanted it reminds me of any
[24:42] time I have a conflict with him too.
[24:44] I want everybody to know. It's not like we sit around
[24:49] holding hands and we're like, this feels so good disagreeing
[24:52] with you. It feels awful.
[24:54] I want people to know that in the moment, conflict is not fun
[24:58] and it's difficult. And it's really like each moment
[25:03] that I'm in it, I'm like, I wish this wasn't happening, but we
[25:06] still plod through and talk to each other and, and figure out
[25:10] the difficult things and try to use the kind phrases even when
[25:15] we're angry. That's what it is.
[25:16] Really, honestly, I've been really feeling a lot of passion
[25:20] about conflict in this part of my life because I feel like
[25:24] there's a lot of good stuff to be mined from it.
[25:26] You know, once you kind of wade through the anxious attachment
[25:28] and you find yourself in a secure relationship, really
[25:32] conflict is a, it's a great place to find more work if
[25:36] that's what you want because there's a lot to learn to get
[25:39] good at it. Well, even taking that
[25:41] perspective, that's coming from a secure place from an
[25:45] attachment standpoint. Yeah.
[25:47] So you said something earlier about, you know, you focused on
[25:51] yourself. You really worked at growing
[25:53] more secure and learning to be gentler and more compassionate
[25:57] with yourself. And that seems like it's not
[26:00] only translated into helping your partner to feel more secure
[26:06] and to grow more secure himself, but it's completely altered the
[26:10] trajectory of your relationship. And I would just love to hear
[26:15] how that process has unfolded because I'm sure it's been messy
[26:20] and touch and go and start and stop and moving in different
[26:24] directions. Conflict can be really scary for
[26:28] an anxious attacher and for an avoidant too, who is most
[26:33] triggered by criticism and judgment and pressure.
[26:38] So how have you and Chris really navigated this together?
[26:42] What do you want people watching this and listening and people
[26:45] reading your second book, which is focused on healing the
[26:48] anxious avoidant dynamic. Yes, anxious and avoiding
[26:51] healing the dynamic. Yes, by Ricky clues available
[26:54] now. What do you want people to take
[26:56] away from your relationship and what you're modeling and from
[27:01] what you're putting out there in your book as well as on
[27:04] Instagram at all? Yeah, I think the biggest thing
[27:08] is that there's just a massive amount of hope for relationships
[27:12] like this. That's what I didn't have when I
[27:14] left my marriage, and that's what I kind of had in spades
[27:18] once I met Chris. And I had an inkling that things
[27:21] could be different and better if if we change the dynamic, right?
[27:26] And that's all it took was just that little, just that little
[27:30] seed of hope. And it doesn't mean that we had
[27:33] a great time of it. I mean, as long as we're talking
[27:36] about vulnerability, Chris and I broke up 8 times in the very
[27:40] beginning of our relationship, which is a massive amount of
[27:43] breakups. I know we were, we started
[27:45] keeping track. It started getting funny because
[27:47] it was happening so often. We were the classic anxious and
[27:50] avoidant couple. I would cling and he would run.
[27:53] And sometimes if our if our conflict or clinging or running
[27:57] got bad enough, I would pull the plug.
[27:59] Six of the breakups were mine and I would go, but this is
[28:02] pointless. I'm pulling the plug.
[28:04] But we, but it was never more than 24 hours before he or I
[28:09] would call each other again and say, do you really, really want
[28:12] to split up? Or do we just not know how to
[28:14] work through this very specific fight that we're having, which
[28:17] is different from the fight that we had a month ago?
[28:20] You know, and, and both times either person would say, I don't
[28:23] want to break up at all. I've been thinking about you
[28:24] constantly the last 24 hours. Let's get some coffee and talk
[28:28] about it. So really, we had to learn how
[28:31] to have conflict together. And once we did that, there was
[28:35] known was no need to break up anymore because then every
[28:38] difficult situation or conversation was literally just
[28:41] OK, it's conflict time. Let's see what you need.
[28:45] See what I need. Let's talk it out and then and
[28:47] then repair afterward is always wonderful, too.
[28:50] Then let's snuggle and watch a movie to make sure that we, you
[28:53] know, still feel good about each other and we're not both still
[28:55] angry. And I got to say, when you, when
[28:59] the conflict times aren't terrifying anymore, it's a lot
[29:04] easier to stop clinging. And for him, it was a lot easier
[29:08] to stop running. You know, we figured out how to
[29:10] have conflict. And my work on just being more
[29:14] independent in general made it so that he didn't feel like as
[29:17] much need to run away, which just made me even more
[29:20] independent, you know, and then kind of pushed us both towards
[29:24] security in anxious and avoidant healing the dynamic, I spend a
[29:27] third of the book talking about how to deal with the anxious
[29:32] side, and then another third of the book talking about how to
[29:35] deal with the avoidance side, and then the last third talking
[29:37] about ways that we deal with that together, Work that's done
[29:41] by both partners. But even if it's just one person
[29:44] working on their side, like I did in the very beginning, I got
[29:49] to, I think this is Julie Manano that I want to attribute this
[29:52] quote to. But one person can't save a
[29:55] relationship, but they can change the entire atmosphere of
[29:59] it. And in an environment with a
[30:01] changed atmosphere, the relationship just has a lot
[30:05] better chance of healing and finding itself in a good place.
[30:09] Well said. I love Julie's content as well
[30:12] as I think she's at the secure relationship on Instagram for
[30:18] those watching and listening and her she has a new book too.
[30:21] Yes, her book on healing anxious and avoidant attachment.
[30:24] I think it's called Secure Love and it's it's phenomenal.
[30:27] It's absolutely worth the read as well.
[30:29] Love these reco's. Yeah, and I have them for days.
[30:32] All I do is read. I love it.
[30:34] I can relate to that a lot and I think a lot of anxious attachers
[30:38] can. You know, many of us are self
[30:41] healers. Yes, exactly.
[30:44] And there's something about reading a book that really gets
[30:47] you and you see yourself in the words on the pages that is
[30:51] really transformational. Yeah.
[30:53] And really impactful. And I do think for many people
[30:56] it started or starts with attached, which is flawed as we
[31:01] all know, right? You know, notebook is perfect.
[31:04] One of my biggest gripes with attached is that it tends to
[31:10] advise to just not grow more secure, but to find someone
[31:15] secure. Yeah, that's my biggest problem
[31:18] with it as well. And you say there are no perfect
[31:20] books, but I want to. I think I may be biased, but I
[31:23] think the closest to perfection that we've got is Wired for Love
[31:28] by Stan Tatkin. He's just, and I am, I'm biased
[31:32] because Stan is probably one of the most compassionate people
[31:36] I've ever read on attachment ever.
[31:39] Just every single style. I mean, if I had to point to one
[31:43] source that really informed the way that I look at attachment
[31:46] more than any others, it would be Stan Tack and and how he just
[31:51] his massive amount of compassion toward all the attachment
[31:54] styles. I think compassion and empathy
[31:58] for each other is another way that we kind of that we heal
[32:02] that dynamic because being able to see the other person as a
[32:06] human who's trying and flawed and is going to screw it up
[32:09] every now and then. That's a, that's a glue, you
[32:12] know, it really is a glue that it makes it a lot tougher to
[32:15] pull up a couple apart when we can see each other as two people
[32:18] who are trying our best. It's basically anti the Amazon
[32:24] effect that we were talking about.
[32:26] You know, you're finding that humanity again, that compassion
[32:29] again. You're really seeing that person
[32:31] for their complexities. You know, people are just
[32:35] responding from their level of self-awareness and healing.
[32:39] And there's a lot of people out there who want to love deeply
[32:45] but might not know how. And that doesn't mean that they
[32:49] can't have a healthy relationship, but it's going to
[32:52] take work for them to develop those skills.
[32:56] And the more that they get discarded by people, the more it
[33:01] makes them want to clam up, shut down, not try again, not put in
[33:07] the effort. So when you can see someone for
[33:10] their scars and their wounds and see beyond that too, it really
[33:15] is transformational. And compassion is deeply
[33:20] healing. It's the essence of healing.
[33:22] It is absolutely. If we'd like to inject even a
[33:25] little more nuance into this conversation, I think it's
[33:28] important to say too, if you were in a relationship and
[33:31] you've been there for years and years and years, and the other
[33:34] person absolutely is not working at all and nothing's changing.
[33:39] I'm also a very big proponent of letting a relationship go.
[33:43] That's that's not that. I mean, you've really given it
[33:47] your best effort and the other person is not making it any
[33:50] easier. It's okay to walk away from
[33:53] something like that. And that comes from the
[33:55] compassionate voice in me too, because sometimes the voice that
[33:59] we think is really caring and compassionate is actually making
[34:02] life really hard for us because they're saying you can do it.
[34:04] Just keep trying to change this person a little bit harder.
[34:08] So anyway, just wanted to throw that out.
[34:10] If I had any naysayers or people who were like very anti Ricky on
[34:15] the Internet, I think their critique would be that I'm a
[34:18] little too hopeful. So I do want to throw out that I
[34:21] definitely don't think every relationship is salvageable.
[34:25] But if I had to put a number on it, I would say most I think or
[34:28] probably OK, more OK than we give them credit for being.
[34:33] Yes. And that is because more often
[34:35] than not, most people are giving you everything that they have to
[34:39] give. Yeah, but it might not be in the
[34:41] ways that we receive. And so they're speaking Greek to
[34:44] us. We're speaking Arabic to them,
[34:46] and nobody's speaking the same language.
[34:48] And that's really tough. You know, it doesn't mean that
[34:51] you can't get on the same page. You can learn to translate.
[34:54] You can learn to comprehend what each person is saying in the way
[34:58] that they're giving love, and love languages are a pathway 1
[35:02] pathway for this. There's many attachment theory
[35:04] is also another pathway to understanding why certain people
[35:08] respond the way that they do or what triggers them and what
[35:12] their patterns are in terms of responding to those triggers.
[35:16] So there's a lot of different ways of looking at this, but at
[35:19] the end of the day, what you're saying is something that I echo
[35:22] a lot of times too, which is 1. It always takes two people to
[35:27] make the relationship work. It can take one person to effect
[35:32] change or an alteration or an evolution in the connection, but
[35:38] the other person then has to respond to that.
[35:39] And, you know, I think it's also important to say that one of the
[35:44] most loving things you can ever do for someone is if you really
[35:49] have given it everything you've got over the course of months
[35:53] and months and months and maybe even years, you come to a
[35:57] crossroads where you have to decide, can I love this person
[36:02] in the ways that they need to be loved?
[36:05] Can I accept that there are some things about them that will
[36:10] never change? And I love them exactly as they
[36:13] are? And it was Marianne Williamson
[36:16] who, in A Return to Love, wrote that it is our failure to accept
[36:20] people exactly as they are that gives us pain in a relationship.
[36:25] That's gorgeous. And that perspective of
[36:27] compassion is, I think, what you're saying.
[36:30] But compassion is only going to get you so far.
[36:32] It doesn't guarantee that the other person is going to receive
[36:36] that. Yeah.
[36:37] And then to do their part to create a more compassionate
[36:42] connection. And sometimes the most loving
[36:44] thing you can do is release someone to be loved in the ways
[36:48] that they need to be loved. Breaking up doesn't always have
[36:52] to be, and oftentimes isn't the end of the connection because
[36:56] you're still connecting to them with your thoughts about the
[36:58] relationship long after it's over.
[37:00] Sure. So remember that too if you're
[37:03] watching this or listening to this.
[37:05] It can be an act of unconditional love to release
[37:09] someone and to be loved better by someone else.
[37:11] Yes, and not necessarily a failure either.
[37:15] I don't look at my marriage as a failed relationship anymore.
[37:19] I definitely used to right when I got divorced, but now I look
[37:22] back and it's it was just the end of something.
[37:25] Myself and my ex-husband have both found ourselves in
[37:28] relationships now that are much better suited to us
[37:32] individually. I think we're a lot happier now
[37:35] than when we were together. And when you look at it that
[37:38] way, it's like, how could anybody call that a failure?
[37:42] Well said. There's a paragraph in Needy No
[37:44] More, the book that goes into this, where I talk about how I'm
[37:48] baffled by people saying that a relationship failed because
[37:53] relationships are about learning.
[37:55] The only way it fails is if you fail to learn from the ways that
[38:00] you showed up and from the lessons that are there laid bare
[38:05] for you to pick up and to say, OK, this wasn't working in this
[38:11] connection. What does this say about the way
[38:14] that I show up in relationships? And what does this say about
[38:18] what I need in relationships? And how can I better own and
[38:22] embody and honor those things instead of beating myself up for
[38:28] my sensitivity or for wanting communication, as many anxious
[38:33] attachers do? Right, right.
[38:36] Oh, that's so This is why I love talking to you, Chris.
[38:39] You're really, you have a great way of putting these things too,
[38:42] that I'm sure the audience who's watching and listening or
[38:44] nodding going, yeah, that's how I feel about it.
[38:47] I love it. Thank you so much.
[38:49] I appreciate that very much. I'm a words of affirmation
[38:51] person for people listening right.
[38:53] So if you want to rate the podcast, leave a review, comment
[38:58] on Spotify. Love all of the above.
[39:01] It's, you know, sometimes when you're hosting a show or when
[39:05] you're putting yourself out there and being vulnerable, like
[39:07] what we've been talking about. Because I've talked very openly
[39:09] about my own traumas and what happened with my mom and my
[39:12] sister and my dad and exes. And it's tough sometimes.
[39:17] But when you put yourself out there like that, it can feel
[39:21] sometimes like you're speaking into an echo chamber or nobody's
[39:25] listening. Yeah, Either.
[39:27] Yeah. So if you have creators that you
[39:29] follow online who, like Ricky and myself, post a lot of
[39:34] content and are very vulnerable in what they post, please write
[39:38] to us. Yes, comment and tell us as
[39:40] much. That's we.
[39:41] Appreciate that too. That's the fuel that keeps me
[39:44] writing honestly is messages from people saying, hey, that
[39:48] thing that you said the other day actually helped and makes me
[39:51] feel better. And that's, that's what keeps me
[39:54] going. I don't think I would do this if
[39:55] that didn't exist because that's that's what I need to feel like
[39:58] this is worth it and something that's very meaningful to me.
[40:02] Hearing that it's helpful. Well, long before you and I ever
[40:06] connected like this on a professional level, when I saw
[40:12] your content from afar, I always respected and admired your
[40:17] approach to this and the compassion that clearly shines
[40:22] through your approach to content creation, to what you share of
[40:27] yourself. And I know that other people
[40:30] online see that too. And I hope that you know how
[40:35] impactful that is. I know you see the numbers, you
[40:39] see you're following. I see it too for myself on
[40:43] TikTok and Instagram and elsewhere.
[40:44] And the numbers help, of course. Yeah, those are boosts, too.
[40:47] They're. Boosts.
[40:48] But yeah, no, the biggest one is having people just tell us, tell
[40:52] me with their words and I'm sure tell you with their words.
[40:54] This is this is actually what I needed to hear.
[40:57] Thanks for saying it. Yes, exactly.
[41:00] Tell the people that you admire online that you admire them,
[41:03] please. Right.
[41:04] And this is me telling you, Ricky.
[41:05] Yeah. I know.
[41:07] Well, thank you. I had no idea you were watching
[41:09] from before we met too. That's like I said, attached.
[41:12] Really kind of broke my spirit. And then and then my boys stand
[41:17] Tatkin, he like lifted me up again and was like, Hey, we can
[41:22] look at this compassionately. And I, I really think empathy
[41:25] and compassion is, it's the way to go.
[41:27] It's the I try to make my little corner of the Internet better
[41:31] than a lot of what I see in that I want the world to be more
[41:35] compassionate with each other in themselves.
[41:37] And that's what I'm going for. And inclusive and flexible and
[41:43] understanding and empathetic and encouraging.
[41:48] There's a lot of the opposite in our world today, as we all know.
[41:52] It's shoved in our face and sometimes it can feel like the
[41:55] positive aspects, The light, if you will, to be cliche, The
[42:00] light is difficult to see through the darkness, but it is
[42:04] there and you are shining that light.
[42:06] I do want to talk about Stan's work a little bit.
[42:08] I am familiar with his work. I believe he characterizes the
[42:13] avoidant as the island. Yes, the island.
[42:16] For those who aren't familiar with Stan's work, tell them
[42:19] about it. And what about it impacted you
[42:21] beyond the compassionate approach?
[42:24] OK. So even the titles anxious
[42:27] attacher and avoidant attacher are a little bit harsh and
[42:32] invite judgment and and Stan knew that and so he rebranded
[42:36] the attachment styles. I like we just said, the
[42:39] avoidance are islands. They kind of feel safer.
[42:42] It's all about safety. With Stan, islands feel safer
[42:45] standing alone. He characterized the anxious
[42:48] attacher as a wave. Waves feel safety in crashing
[42:53] against islands or whoever they can find.
[42:55] And then what did he call the secure anchor?
[42:58] The secures are anchors, which is such a lovely, what a lovely
[43:02] metaphor. He's a he's good with words,
[43:04] too. Yeah.
[43:06] And the anchors kind of stay where they are and make
[43:09] everybody else feel like they're safe and secure as well.
[43:12] Stan is. Stable.
[43:15] Stans a couples therapist and I think his biggest thing is
[43:19] empathy and hearing each other and using the kindest words
[43:23] possible that also not to throw another name into this too, but
[43:27] Marshall Rosenberg with the Nonviolent communication is
[43:30] another huge, huge influence of mine because I think the vast
[43:34] majority of us don't realize what kind of harm and negative
[43:39] perpetuating we're doing by throwing bad words into our
[43:43] relationship. I mean, the things that we say,
[43:46] we don't realize how that impacts our partner.
[43:48] And so yeah, so, so Stantec and and Marshall Rosenberg's, both
[43:53] of those, they would have been buddies if they ever met in real
[43:56] life. And I think their attitudes
[43:59] toward connection and more self-awareness about how we're
[44:04] impacting the relationship, those are just, they're huge
[44:06] influences of mine. And there's wired for love that
[44:09] Stan wrote and there's wired for dating.
[44:11] So in case you're not in a long term relationship, Wired for
[44:14] Dating is great too. And all of it talks about
[44:18] attachment and in compassionate way, and what we can do within
[44:21] ourselves and within the relationship to make it better.
[44:24] These are all great principles when it comes to growing more
[44:27] secure, that kind of nonviolent effective communication.
[44:31] I mean, look, words have the power to break people down and
[44:35] they have the power to build people up.
[44:37] And you get to choose how you wield that power.
[44:41] And that is a big responsibility that many of us don't really
[44:45] take accountability. For yeah.
[44:48] But one of the things that I do as a coach all the time is to
[44:51] help to intervene when folks might be even speaking
[44:55] negatively about themselves because it's interesting.
[44:58] They'll characterize. I want to feel less anxious and
[45:01] I stop them and I say, well, let's actually flip that on its
[45:04] head. What is it that you want more
[45:06] of? You want to feel more secure?
[45:09] We're not just looking to reduce the anxiety because that's
[45:13] focusing on a quote, UN quote negative experience and limiting
[45:18] what is a very natural human emotion to experience.
[45:22] Instead of that, maybe we can honor that that is a natural
[45:26] thing to feel and that you're going to feel that way from time
[45:29] to time, regardless of however much work you might do or not
[45:32] do. And instead acknowledge that you
[45:35] want to feel other emotions. You want to, you're not healing
[45:39] to, to reduce your anxiety. You're healing to access more
[45:44] joy and gratitude and comfort and stability and presence and
[45:50] peace and easygoingness. And you know, that's a big shift
[45:55] for folks that they don't often realize.
[45:58] And that starts with how we use language.
[46:02] And following people that use that kind of language is a great
[46:05] way to soak this up. And so if you're watching this
[46:10] or listening to this, Ricky is a great resource for phrases that
[46:16] you can use really tangible, practical interventions, even
[46:22] like lines that you can throw out there that can help to
[46:25] change the trajectory of not only a conversation, but how you
[46:31] can approach conflict and the nature of a dynamic or the
[46:36] relationship generally. Thank you for saying that,
[46:40] Chris. I think that's a huge part of my
[46:42] account. It always will be.
[46:44] My Instagram account is, I feel like having, having phrases kind
[46:48] of in our bank that we can pull out when things are tough and
[46:51] we're not sure what to say. I think that's one of the things
[46:54] that changes the atmosphere having even if it sounds kind of
[46:57] wooden or awkward at first because we're not used to saying
[47:00] it. Those kind of things become the
[47:02] way that you talk to your partner after a while with
[47:06] enough practice. My own partner and I, I, I can't
[47:09] even imagine those kids that broke up 8 times daily asking
[47:13] each other, what can I do to help you feel loved today?
[47:16] We certainly weren't asking that in the beginning, but having
[47:19] phrases like that that invite the other person to be
[47:22] vulnerable and connect and using them on a daily basis, that's
[47:26] the kind of atmosphere changing thing that really squashes the
[47:29] anxious avoidant push pull dynamic.
[47:31] Great point about proactively managing the health of the
[47:35] relationship, and not just for the sake of avoiding conflict or
[47:39] preventing it, but for if you use kind of a metaphor of an
[47:44] emotional bank account for the relationship, you're depositing
[47:49] love into that account. And for those who might be aware
[47:53] of the Gottman Institute and the Gottman's and their work, you
[47:57] know, they espouse the 5 to 1 positive to quote UN quote
[48:01] negative interactions as the ratio to aim for or exceed in
[48:07] relationships because they found in longitudinal studies that the
[48:11] five to one ratio was what determined whether or not the
[48:14] couple made it or didn't. Yes.
[48:17] And it really speaks to what you are saying, which is that you
[48:20] need to pour love into one another.
[48:23] For anxious and avoidant couples, there's a big dominance
[48:28] of criticism and judgment and feeling threatened, and there's
[48:33] a lot of fear. And when that come becomes the
[48:35] predominant narrative for energy in a connection, that's really
[48:41] problematic. And it's got to change if you
[48:44] want to make the relationship healthier and improve.
[48:47] Speak positively over one another.
[48:50] Talk about what you admire. Talk about what you want more of
[48:55] from that person, not just what you want them to do less of.
[48:59] Yes, especially if you're on the anxious side and your partner is
[49:02] on the avoidance side. If you're only focusing on well
[49:05] you didn't text me, it took you 4 hours, I didn't hear from you.
[49:09] Instead, talk about the fact that touching base with some
[49:14] sort of regularity helps you to feel connected and appreciated.
[49:20] And people respond, talking about language that respond a
[49:23] lot better to that kind of language because it's just
[49:27] saying this is what works for me.
[49:30] It's a form of boundary setting that is inclusive and gentle and
[49:34] compassionate and collaborative instead of just critical and
[49:40] saying to someone, well, I didn't like that and that's not
[49:43] going to work for me. And you can't do that, which is
[49:46] attacking someone and putting them on the defensive.
[49:50] It's funny, on my podcast, my Co host Jimmy will be talking about
[49:55] phrases that are like helpful or hurtful and he'll, he'll throw
[49:58] out the hurtful or the harmful phrases.
[50:01] And I can feel myself responding to that even though he's not
[50:05] talking to me. It's literally just an example.
[50:08] He'll be saying you this, you that.
[50:11] And it's like, it's like the little girl in me is like
[50:13] feeling like I'm being punished, you know, and then we'll turn
[50:17] around and we'll throw out the good phrases.
[50:19] And even though he's 3000 miles away and technically a person
[50:24] I've never met in real life, I feel so close to him.
[50:27] Even just hearing him say the loving kind things or making a
[50:32] request, you know, he say the other day it was like, hey, it
[50:34] would be really great if we could go out for a date on
[50:37] Friday. And I thought, let's get that
[50:38] man a date on Friday night. We I was like motivated to help
[50:42] him even though, you know, I'm not in that relationship.
[50:46] I love that words. Are so, so powerful.
[50:50] They are, and this really brings us full circle because we've
[50:53] talked about how reading and books have impacted us and now
[50:58] look at where we are. Imagine if we had never read
[51:02] Attached, and imagine if you had never learned about the
[51:07] different ways of describing the attachment styles and hadn't
[51:12] ever read Nonviolent Communication.
[51:14] It was other people's words that helped you to get to where you
[51:19] are now, modeling that for other people, and same with me.
[51:24] There were many books. A Return to Love is one of them.
[51:27] A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. I mean, there's so many.
[51:30] I I've got blogs on my site cracklift.com that go into books
[51:34] that changed my life and books that changed my love life and
[51:37] books that if you're an anxious attacher, you can read which
[51:41] your first book is on that list. I saw that.
[51:42] Yeah. Thank you for.
[51:43] That healing, you're very welcome, of course.
[51:45] Yeah. More than happy to refer people
[51:47] to your work again, you're one of my favorite people in this
[51:50] space. And I mean that so, so sweet.
[51:54] That brings us full circle because now we're modeling that
[51:58] for other people and being the change that we wish to see and
[52:02] being the models that we wish perhaps we would have had in
[52:05] ways big and small. Because I don't want to speak
[52:07] for you on that front. But for me, I know I'm trying to
[52:11] be the healing companion I wish I would have had searching in a
[52:15] lot of disparate places and not really knowing what to do or
[52:20] having any structure right. That's my exact goal actually.
[52:24] I'm glad you said that. Once things started to get
[52:27] better, I thought there are other Ricky's out there who need
[52:31] who need to hear this and I can I can do that for them.
[52:34] And you have and you are. I've tried, yeah.
[52:36] Thank you. You are, you are.
[52:39] You deserve to be lifted up to the full extent here.
[52:43] Your work has impacted so many people.
[52:46] I know this about myself too. It's still a little bit mind
[52:49] blowing from time to time to look back on my own journey and
[52:55] be like, wow, I mean, it wasn't really that long ago, right?
[52:59] Right. Either.
[52:59] I first read Attached and now look at how my life has
[53:05] completely changed and the impact that this has had not
[53:09] just on me, but on countless other people.
[53:13] And I know the same is true. Yeah, for you, yeah.
[53:18] What do you want people to know about your book?
[53:21] As we kind of wind towards the end of the episode here?
[53:24] What do you want people to take away from this conversation when
[53:28] it comes to healing the anxious avoidant dynamic?
[53:31] Is there anything we haven't covered today that you want the
[53:33] anxious attachers listening to this or watching this to take
[53:38] away from the conversation? Like I said before, absolutely
[53:42] know that there's hope, but also, and I think we kind of
[53:45] briefly touched on this earlier, none of the work that we do in
[53:49] this is wasted. Even if it doesn't save your
[53:51] relationship or change your relationship and things still
[53:55] kind of go up in smoke, the work that we do on this stuff makes
[53:58] all the relationships in our lives better.
[54:01] Well said. Sometimes it is the end of a
[54:03] relationship that is the catalyst, the kick in the ass
[54:06] that yeah, we might need to do the work that we need to do and
[54:10] it pushes us towards resources and in directions that maybe we
[54:14] wouldn't have pursued otherwise. And that is a beautiful thing.
[54:18] It was an anxious avoidant relationship coming to a close
[54:21] that ultimately led to me discovering my attachment style.
[54:25] Yeah, reading Attached and to ending up here having worked
[54:29] with thousands of people across 6 continents, which again is
[54:32] still very mind blowing to me. What?
[54:34] It's an impressive statistic. I like it.
[54:37] Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that.
[54:39] But it really speaks to something very powerful, which
[54:42] is that I'm grateful that that relationship did not last.
[54:47] I look back at myself and how I showed up at that time, and I am
[54:52] proud of the work that I've done.
[54:55] And no, because I'm single right now, I know that I'm equipped
[55:00] for my next relationship. You know, I don't have it all
[55:03] figured out by any means, but I know that I'm a lot healthier
[55:07] than I've ever been. I'm the healthiest I've ever
[55:08] been. Yes.
[55:09] I know what I bring to the table.
[55:11] I know I've got the skills sharpened in the departments
[55:15] that they need to be. Yeah.
[55:16] And I'm excited to, you know, really do that work with and.
[55:20] Everything that you've done has made you a better friend to
[55:23] others and a better friend to yourself, right?
[55:27] Yes, exactly. And thank you for pointing that
[55:29] out, too. It's not just about, you know,
[55:31] saving this up for my next romantic partner or anything
[55:34] like that, right? This is impacting how I show up
[55:37] for my clients. It impacts how I show up with
[55:41] family and with friends. You know, I don't even know if I
[55:44] would have been able to have this kind of conversation years
[55:47] ago if I were still on the very anxious side of the attachment
[55:51] spectrum, you know, and I look back at myself with such
[55:55] compassion and gentleness and pride and love, you know, and
[56:00] empowerment. Because we were doing the best
[56:03] we knew how with the tools that we had back then.
[56:05] That's why I get that question from people a lot.
[56:08] How can I stop feeling angry at myself for screwing things up
[56:12] or, or doing things badly in the past?
[56:14] And I said, you're doing the best you could with the tools
[56:16] that you had. There's something admirable
[56:18] about that too, you know. I am nodding feverishly for
[56:22] those who are listening. Yes, yes, absolutely.
[56:25] That is the root of forgiveness, which is something that has
[56:29] impacted my own life very deeply and something I have my clients
[56:34] practice with themselves first and foremost, and also with
[56:38] others. We often carry around a lot of
[56:40] energy from others that we don't realize is still there.
[56:43] Totally. Ricky, this has been an amazing
[56:46] conversation. I know that this is going to
[56:48] inspire so many people and give them hope.
[56:52] And I'm sure that if Ricky, who was struggling in her previous
[56:57] marriage, could hear this, she could have used some of that
[57:00] hope, probably. Yes, I guess this is the part
[57:03] where I tell people if they want to find me or my work and my
[57:07] content. You can find me at Anxious
[57:09] Hearts Guide on Instagram. Ricky close is a little bit
[57:13] tough to spell, so don't worry about that.
[57:15] Anxious Hearts Guide is me. You can find my books, The
[57:18] Anxious Hearts Guide or Anxious and Avoidant Healing the Dynamic
[57:22] on Amazon or my website anxiousheartsguide.com.
[57:26] I'm around. I love, I love talking to folks,
[57:29] so I welcome the DMS on Instagram.
[57:32] I can't always answer every one of them, but I really do enjoy
[57:36] conversing with people in there so if I can get to it, I will.
[57:40] Reach out to Ricky, go to her website, buy her two books.
[57:44] They are incredible. Her advice is invaluable.
[57:48] She's got lots of tangible, practical advice that you can
[57:52] put into application and into practice right now, so pick
[57:56] those up. Her first book is the Anxious
[57:58] Hearts Guide. Second book is Anxious and
[58:01] Avoidant Healing the dynamic. Visit her on Instagram and her
[58:06] website. Like she said.
[58:08] Thank you so much for coming on the show, Ricky.
[58:09] Thanks for having me, Chris.

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