# From Progressive to 20 Year Old TERF: My Political Journey - Connie Shaw | #65

An episode of [The Next Generation](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1772698742), 8 Feb 2026, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/107851968/podcast/play/115180988/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2026-1-7%2F417671389-44100-2-144b865210aa5.mp3

Connie Shaw used to be a liberal feminist and believer in trans rights. Today she is a gender critical conservative who speaks out for Israel. I asked Connie about how this happened, why it's so hard to escape the mainstream narratives Gen Z are being fed, and what's in store for our generation in the future.Connie is the External Affairs Officer at the Free Speech Union and a regular contributor at GB News.Get 20% off Jamie AI with my code ELLIOT. I use Jamie for every episode - research, notes during the recording and analysis of video performance after. Check it out:https://www.jamie-ai.com/Subscribe to my Substack to see bonus content and send in your questions for future guests! https://elliotbewick.substack.com/Connie on X: https://x.com/_ConnieShawCHAPTERS: 00:00 How did you go from progressive to conservative? 07:42 Why it’s so hard for Gen Z to see through the trans narrative 11:54 Safe spaces at university 16:34 Why are we scared to talk about certain subjects? 19:32 Advice for speaking out 26:00 Are we too focussed on safety? 30:24 Do you feel pressure to go further right? 35:42 Why I started speaking out for Israel 45:09 You have to be cautious when making alliances 51:10 What are the good traits of Gen Z? 54:00 Why do you favour Judeo-Christian values? 59:56 The idea of becoming religious scares me 1:05:50 Are you optimistic about our generation? My Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elliotbewick/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@elliotbewickX: https://x.com/elliotbewickABOUT THE NEXT GENERATION: In a world saturated by social media and marked by skyrocketing rates of anxiety, depression, and ADHD among Gen Z, young people are growing up in a landscape of chaos and contradiction. While protests swell in city streets and activists hurl soup at famous artworks to demand climate action, a quieter crisis unfolds within - the mental and emotional battles faced by a generation trying to make sense of it all.The Next Generation is hosted by 20-year-old Elliot Bewick, offering a raw and honest look at the world through the eyes of those living in it. Bringing together insight from professionals and young people on the ground, this podcast isn’t here to complain or chase clout. It’s here to bend the arc of the modern world towards solutions, truth and a love for the beautiful adventure of life itself.

## Transcript

[0:00] Connie Shaw, welcome back to the Next Generation.
[0:02] Thank you very much. Growing up, you were on more of
[0:05] a typical path for young Gen. Z girls of buying into certain
[0:10] progressive ideologies. But what people may know about
[0:14] you is that you've taken a different turn over the last
[0:16] couple of years. You describe peeking with the
[0:20] trans ideology and realizing the lies that had been sold to you
[0:24] at a young age. Take me through, first of all,
[0:27] before becoming a turf, what your beliefs were like
[0:31] politically and socially growing up.
[0:33] I think one of the first topics that I became quite incensed by
[0:37] when I was quite a young teenager, especially when I was
[0:40] studying religion at even GCSE, was Islam.
[0:44] And I could notice quite early on, from anecdotes that my
[0:49] family had told me anyway, from experiences they'd had within
[0:53] our own family and also what I was learning at school, I very
[0:57] early on noticed the way that women were treated differently
[1:00] just through the the clothing. And I could see that difference.
[1:05] And I remember a couple of times at school, and I point this out,
[1:09] I was met by quite pushback that seemed as though I was saying
[1:14] something that was, if not wrong, just unwelcome kind of a
[1:17] bit. You know you have to be careful
[1:19] about what you say in what. Context was this.
[1:22] In, in a, in a lesson, I remember we were learning about
[1:25] Hajj, the obviously pilgrimage that Muslims go on to Mecca.
[1:28] And I remember seeing the footage of the men who were
[1:31] wearing the white robes and some of them were wearing them.
[1:35] I mean, they're obviously one of their shoulders is out and
[1:37] sometimes you can see their nipples.
[1:39] And the women were still dressed head to toe and they're in
[1:43] scorching heat, having to climb up a mountain.
[1:46] And I remember asking how come the men get to basically have a
[1:52] lot of their skin showing, which wouldn't be modest for anyone.
[1:56] You know, even in the UK, when I see blokes walking around with
[1:58] their tops off through town centres, I think, come on, we're
[2:01] not on a beach. So it just seemed a huge, hugely
[2:06] hypocritical and unfair for the women who still were remaining
[2:09] completely covered up and through my It was also a similar
[2:14] time to when Boris Johnson wrote the article comparing women who
[2:18] wore the burqa to letterboxes, even though he was defending
[2:21] their right to wear them. He was criticizing countries
[2:23] like Denmark who'd banned the burqa.
[2:25] He was actually saying that we shouldn't ban it.
[2:27] If people want to look like letterboxes, let them.
[2:30] And I remember asking about what, you know, what people
[2:32] thought about that. And I was told that it was
[2:33] Islamophobic and offensive. But I thought, but why?
[2:36] They do look like letterboxes. And I didn't understand why it
[2:40] was so offensive to point out specifically about Islamic
[2:44] practices. It didn't seem that it was a we
[2:46] were allowed to mock Christianity.
[2:48] We were allowed to mock the church for being the Catholic
[2:51] Church, Church in particular for its scandals of child abuse.
[2:54] But even mocking the clothing of Islam was too far.
[2:58] And I, my first intellectual hero was Christopher Hitchens
[3:02] and I learnt a lot from him and that that it wasn't, it wasn't
[3:07] offence, it shouldn't be offensive.
[3:08] And it's actually really important that we talk about
[3:10] these things and now look where we are and hate to imagine what
[3:14] Christopher Hitchens would think if he saw the state of the UK
[3:17] and Europe generally if he was still alive today.
[3:20] So I even though I was generally quite absorbent, at least of
[3:26] woke ideas, there was always that from the beginning.
[3:29] And I think that my ability to see through people just saying
[3:33] or you can't say that because it's Islamophobic helped me be
[3:36] able to see through. You can't say that because it's
[3:39] transphobic later on. So you first had this very
[3:42] countercultural belief in regards to Islam, but you didn't
[3:47] with other things. What were those other things?
[3:49] Well, things like microaggressions and general
[3:53] really low level sexism. I'm I was at school when Sarah
[3:57] Everard was horrifically murdered by her Wayne cousins.
[4:01] And obviously I was at school during the Me Too movement,
[4:04] although I was younger. I don't really, I remember that
[4:06] it was a thing, but I didn't really experience it and it's
[4:09] full, full and. The context for anyone that
[4:10] doesn't know the Sarah Everard murder.
[4:12] Yeah, so Sarah Everard was just a woman who was walking through
[4:17] Clapham and she was on her phone, though it was lit up.
[4:20] There were St. lights and a police officer pulled up.
[4:23] This was during lockdown. Police officer pulled up and
[4:25] said that she was, as far as I remember, being arrested or
[4:28] questioned because she'd broken lockdown rules.
[4:30] And the police officer was in fact, Wayne Cousins, who then
[4:32] kidnapped her and murdered her. And there were huge vigils held
[4:37] in Clapham at the time. It was really horrific.
[4:40] And after that, this whole sort of crisis and outcry about
[4:45] institutional misogyny in the Met Police, we're still talking
[4:48] about it today. It's still an issue that's
[4:51] spoken about. And that really took hold in
[4:55] secondary schools. I remember that was a huge topic
[4:57] that people would post about on their Instagram stories,
[4:59] including myself, that 97% start of 97% of women have all been
[5:04] harassed or sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime.
[5:08] And so I remember being sort of very, very passionate about, you
[5:12] know, microaggressions and you know, the way that men might
[5:15] speak to you in a certain way that he's doing that because
[5:17] you're a woman. And the trans stuff at school, I
[5:21] never really, I didn't pay that much attention to it at school.
[5:25] It was just a thing. It was just, it kind of
[5:27] gradually arrived, I think that I was too young to notice the
[5:30] explosion of it sort of in 2014 around that year.
[5:35] And then once I was at secondary school, I think even from my
[5:38] youngest years, I knew of trans people at school.
[5:41] They were always girls who identified as either non binary
[5:44] or a man. And then it was for, it was a
[5:49] Pride month special that my school asked me to interview a
[5:52] trans student in my year who was female.
[5:55] And it was after that conversation I had deep after
[5:59] that conversation, I just said I felt so sorry for her and she's
[6:02] clearly in a lot of distress. But I realised that was some
[6:05] really concerning inconsistencies in her, what she
[6:08] was saying. And that kind of planted the
[6:10] seed. And then when I went to uni,
[6:12] there's just trans stuff everywhere.
[6:13] And then by the time I was in my second year of university,
[6:18] giggle versus tickle had happened in Australia and I
[6:20] wanted to look more. I wanted to get more involved in
[6:24] politics because I'd always been interested in it, but I really
[6:27] wanted to go into radio and broadcast journalism.
[6:30] And so I wanted to start my own podcast, at least student radio.
[6:34] I'd been doing student radio on the politics hour and I'd tried
[6:38] to speak about this and even though I would argue some of my
[6:41] friends that I did the podcast with a really woke, they were
[6:43] very easy to happy to have the conversation.
[6:46] I think part of that was because they were boys.
[6:48] I think it would have been on average a lot harder to have
[6:50] those conversations at all if they were girls.
[6:55] But speaking about it on the politics hourly student radio
[6:58] and then going into my third year when I was on the committee
[7:02] and I'd start my own podcast and then interviewing Graham
[7:05] Linnehan and Charlie Bentley Astor, she desisted from trans
[7:08] ideology. And then that all led to me
[7:10] being removed from my post and my university also disciplining
[7:15] me. The last time I was, I spoke to
[7:17] you in December last year, my university hadn't yet launched
[7:21] disciplinary action against me. So I thought the radio stuff was
[7:24] as bad as it was going to get. This was as I know that I was
[7:27] going to be facing expulsion, potential expulsion a few weeks
[7:30] later. Yeah, well, a lot has happened,
[7:33] as has happened since our last conversation.
[7:35] And I got in there first the interview, you were the first,
[7:39] well, I was the first interview that you did, I think during
[7:41] that whole shitstorm. What interests me about your
[7:44] story going back to the so-called Islamophobia when you
[7:47] were younger is that you seem to have always had this streak in
[7:52] you of critical thinking, yet that perhaps was surpassed by
[7:58] the trans stuff. And I wonder why that was
[8:02] because when you speak about the trans stuff being less of an
[8:07] open chapter discussed that a closed book completely.
[8:10] I feel the exact same as a 20 year old.
[8:13] I grew up in Brighton, which is the woke capital of Europe.
[8:16] So it would have been more extreme for me.
[8:18] But certainly with my experience, it wasn't an
[8:21] inquiry, it wasn't a debate. This was the way that it was.
[8:26] Trans women are women, and there's no fire behind that
[8:31] statement. There's no controversy.
[8:33] It just is. So I don't know if that's the
[8:35] same as your experience, but certainly for me, it seems with
[8:39] our generation, we're partly in a better position because we
[8:44] don't like debating anything and everything, like perhaps the
[8:47] millennials will do on different TV panels.
[8:50] But at the same time, it leads to even bigger issues.
[8:54] When we've got these issues below the surface that we don't
[8:58] even question, there's no debate.
[9:01] I think especially in my experience, the reason why there
[9:04] seemed to be no debate at school was because, and this is
[9:07] probably true of a lot of people's experience, whilst this
[9:10] phenomenon was kind of really taking hold, was that the school
[9:13] in my case was being led by the students.
[9:17] So I was, I was Co running the feminist society and I felt and
[9:24] teachers would come to it and it was great and we had really
[9:26] great discussions. Although funnily enough the
[9:28] motto of the society was that it was an open discussion, not a
[9:32] debate like that was literally the motto of the of the society.
[9:39] But also because the children who identified as trans, as we
[9:43] know, were nearly always struggling with other mental
[9:46] health conditions or were neon diverse.
[9:49] And I think everyone felt that they needed a lot of care.
[9:52] And which they did, of course. But that meant that the last
[9:56] thing you were going to do was tell them that what they
[9:59] believed wasn't true. And that of course means, like
[10:03] you were saying, by the time you actually see the harms of the
[10:06] ideology, it's too late because you've already been affirming
[10:09] people. And one of the other issues was
[10:12] that especially for young people at school, because there is
[10:15] such, it's like a 2 to one ratio or even more of young girls
[10:18] identifying as trans and young boys.
[10:21] I didn't experience the whole, but he's a boy, why is he in the
[10:24] women's changing room? The girls who identified as
[10:26] transfer as I'm aware we're still going into the women's
[10:27] toilets and obviously no one had an issue with that because we
[10:30] all knew that they were female. Had it been a male student who
[10:34] midway through their school career decide they identified as
[10:37] a girl and one is to go into the women's into the girls changing
[10:39] rooms and toilets, I wonder whether teachers would have
[10:41] raised more concerns or if students may have said something
[10:44] I don't. It didn't happen when I was
[10:45] there because there wasn't a boy who identified as a girl who
[10:48] wanted to go into the women's spaces.
[10:52] And then it's only since leaving and realizing, oh, this isn't
[10:55] just a girl thing, wanting to transition to be boys, I didn't
[10:59] really see what difference it made, whether it was a boy who
[11:01] wanted to be a girl or a girl who wanted to be a boy.
[11:04] And then you don't really see those issues until that happens.
[11:08] And so it was never debated until you realise the issues,
[11:11] until it affects you personally. A lot of people who think
[11:13] there's no issue have never had to experience a man in their
[11:18] space. Or even some women who do I
[11:21] think are in denial. I think I think Helen Joyce and
[11:25] maybe even Julie Bindall has said that one of the theories
[11:29] that they have, and I think this is I'd agree, lots of women find
[11:33] it difficult who who deny the issue of trans ideology.
[11:35] I think because you have to admit that women are at date in
[11:38] danger of men. But it's so weird because
[11:40] they're happy to admit it when it comes to the Me Too movement,
[11:42] but when it comes to trans, they're not.
[11:45] And acknowledging that actually your biology has a lot to do
[11:48] with who you're safe around really matters.
[11:52] And that's quite tricky to accept, I think, for some women.
[11:55] It's funny isn't it? This whole focus, hyper focus on
[11:58] safe spaces, yet when it comes to the physical real life
[12:03] limitations that are inarguable in my opinion, they disregard it
[12:08] completely because of their ideology, right?
[12:12] Talk to me about the safe spaces that you've experienced at
[12:15] university because I think one of the core problems here as a
[12:19] whole for our generation is that we are over indexing on the
[12:24] wrong type of safe space. Safe space where we don't want
[12:27] to have debate. That's why the trans argument
[12:30] was a closed book for me. That's why so many different
[12:33] ideologies can sneak their way into our belief systems, because
[12:37] we over prioritise safety rather than truth and actually
[12:42] preparing ourselves for the real world.
[12:44] When we get out of university and there's no longer a trigger
[12:48] warning on every lecture, there's no longer a list of
[12:51] banned words and conversations you can't speak about on campus.
[12:55] Yeah, one of the best and most ridiculous examples of this when
[12:59] I was at Leeds is that there was leaflets that were scattered
[13:03] about the union about sexual violence.
[13:05] And one of them said, do your mates rate girls out of 10?
[13:09] That's sexual violence. But as far as I'm aware, the
[13:13] last time I checked, University of Leeds policy still says that
[13:16] anyone can go into any changing room or toilet they like, no
[13:19] matter what their biological sex is, as long as I identify with
[13:22] that space. And it's often this sort of and
[13:26] deflecting and trying to distract you from the really
[13:29] serious issues that are so simple to fix and to speak more
[13:33] about really sort of hypothetical cultural like
[13:38] postmodern use of language. Whether we're talking about the
[13:43] people would much rather you be more concerned about
[13:45] Islamophobia than that you would about the rape gangs or, or
[13:51] Islamism in this country. They'd rather you be more
[13:53] concerned about the effect that might have on Muslims in general
[13:56] rather than the effect that the rape gangs have had on hundreds,
[14:00] 10s of thousands of girls in this country or the, you know,
[14:04] hundreds of people have been killed by Islamic terrorism.
[14:07] And it's this constant deflection to be more concerned
[14:10] about feelings rather than actual harm.
[14:14] And therefore the safe spaces that people talk about, it's
[14:19] only safe as long as you agree with the people who are trying
[14:21] to deflect away from the really serious issues.
[14:25] One thing that I've tried to be speaking about a lot is this
[14:28] increase we've seen in migrant sex attacks.
[14:31] And they are sex attacks because nearly everyone is a random
[14:35] attack of a girl who was just out doing her business and she's
[14:39] dragged off the street. There was literally that example
[14:41] of two Afghan born young men. There were teenagers dragging
[14:45] another young girl off the street away from her friends and
[14:47] raped her in a park. Lots of them are random attacks.
[14:51] Abby, who was interviewed by Patrick Christie's on GB News.
[14:54] She was playing hide and seek with her friends.
[14:56] There was banned from Iran, hard hiding in a Bush and literally
[15:00] attacked her out of nowhere. And then people will say, yeah,
[15:04] but most sexual assaults and sexual violence are committed by
[15:07] people you know, and they'll pretend that they don't see that
[15:11] this is an entirely separate type of sexual violence that we
[15:14] could stop by, for example, preventing the immigration of
[15:19] men from certain cultures where that is far more likely to
[15:22] happen. I think there's sexual tourism
[15:23] going on in this country, but people would rather say, well,
[15:26] let's pretend that it doesn't exist because that's really
[15:28] uncomfortable to talk about for my own narrative.
[15:31] Instead, let's not forget that actually the majority of sexual
[15:33] abuse, which is also a huge issue, but it's much harder to
[15:37] solve. And it's not that it shouldn't
[15:40] be, but it is much harder to solve domestic abuse within
[15:43] families where you would assume that they're all loving of each
[15:46] other and not going to abuse one another.
[15:49] And that's much harder to stop if your, if your kitchen is
[15:52] being flooded, you don't, the first thing you do is turn off
[15:55] the tap. We would be able to get rid of
[15:57] so many of, you know, how many girls need to be raped before we
[16:00] say, let's turn off the tap and then we can start again and look
[16:03] at all of it rather than let's just don't worry about that.
[16:07] But you also need to be looking over here.
[16:09] This is constant deflection. And so when these people talk
[16:13] about safe spaces, it's about safety for their own
[16:16] conversation so that they don't have to feel uncomfortable.
[16:18] They don't really care about the safety of other people, and I'm
[16:22] not saying they're deliberately not caring, but it's just too
[16:25] difficult for them to to bend and accept that some of the
[16:30] things that they hoped weren't true are true.
[16:32] I wish it wasn't true. So do I, but the question is why
[16:36] does this happen? Do you think it's exchanging
[16:38] victimhood as a form of currency?
[16:41] Is it virtue signalling? Is it prioritisation of comfort
[16:46] rather than dealing with the difficult truths of life?
[16:49] What is it that's actually causing this this issue in our
[16:51] generation? I think it's a mixture of all of
[16:54] those things. I think on one hand, our
[16:57] generation has been brought up to believe that the most
[17:00] important thing is to be kind to one another, and that includes
[17:04] not having difficult conversations and not getting
[17:08] involved with confrontation, even if that just means debate
[17:11] do. You not think that's true?
[17:13] Why? Why shouldn't you avoid
[17:18] difficult conversations? Because otherwise nothing
[17:23] important will ever be done. But what if it's upsetting?
[17:27] It throws you off the trajectory of life that you're on.
[17:30] It traumatises you. You have things going pretty
[17:33] well for yourself and you feel like you're on the right track.
[17:36] Shouldn't you just be allowed to stay in your own safe space?
[17:41] I think that people who don't want to get involved in
[17:43] political discussions have every right to do that.
[17:45] I think there's no obligation, There shouldn't be any
[17:48] obligation for the average person to have to start having
[17:51] these conversations because we've been let down by people
[17:53] who are in power who haven't been having these conversations.
[17:58] But if you are going to get involved with political
[18:00] discussions, which many of these people do who are very
[18:03] passionate about safe spaces and they see those space safe spaces
[18:06] as being political in themselves, then they need to be
[18:11] happy to have those difficult conversations.
[18:14] Because if we don't have those difficult conversations, the
[18:17] upsetting thing is far more upsetting, I would say, to be a
[18:22] victim of a rape gang or a victim of a random migrant sex
[18:25] attack than to have a conversation about immigration.
[18:30] And that's the issue here. I'm not saying that there aren't
[18:32] issues within our own native population, but they're very
[18:37] happy to talk about that. They're very happy, these safe
[18:39] space people, very happy to talk about that, but they're not
[18:42] happy to talk about the other thing.
[18:43] I want to talk about both. The reason why I'm so passionate
[18:45] about it is because these people, I know we're talking
[18:47] hypothetically about these safe space people, want you to stop
[18:50] talking about it. And that was the same with
[18:52] trans. I wanted to talk about it
[18:54] because for some reason everyone didn't want you to talk about
[18:57] it. And therefore, there must be an
[18:58] issue here that someone's trying to cover up.
[19:00] And that's why it's important to have uncomfortable
[19:03] conversations. Because more often than not, if
[19:06] you look back at any of the issues we've faced over the last
[19:08] five or ten years, the reason why they're uncomfortable is
[19:11] because people don't want you to talk about them because it's so
[19:18] awful. And I think that it it's just
[19:21] very hard for people to put their own political ideology
[19:24] aside and accept that some things are very, very upsetting
[19:29] are true, and it's not going to stop until you're able to talk
[19:31] about it. Well, where do we start?
[19:33] If you're someone that has been potentially ideologically
[19:36] captured, you've been exposed at university to certain beliefs,
[19:39] certain things you can and can't talk about.
[19:41] Perhaps they're in a corporate job where they're very strict HR
[19:44] regulations. How do you start as someone that
[19:48] wants to venture in, watch a little bit of Andrew Gold,
[19:51] Heretics or whatever it may be, What would your advice be to
[19:54] someone who perhaps is nervous to have these uncomfortable
[19:57] conversations because they simply haven't been able to have
[20:00] have them? And I know from my experience as
[20:03] well, growing up with divorced parents, even things like dinner
[20:07] time where you sit and chat with an entire family and your older
[20:11] sister has a different viewpoint to you and you fight it out at
[20:14] the dinner table. A lot of those different
[20:17] activities, I mean even something like going to the pub
[20:19] now, they're just not available in the same way to young people
[20:23] and we're not being exposed to difficult conversations in as
[20:27] many places. My source that recently that
[20:29] more pubs are closing in London than were closed during the
[20:33] Blitz from German bombings. So we've had this removal of
[20:38] these third spaces rather than safe spaces to have difficult
[20:41] conversations. Where do you start if you want
[20:45] to lean in, test the truth behind things more?
[20:47] Well, firstly, if you want to have those conversations at
[20:49] work, definitely buy a free speech union membership.
[20:53] But I think the best way is honestly asking people
[20:56] questions. If you're worried about what
[20:57] people may think or the assumptions they make make about
[21:00] you, don't start by saying I think this.
[21:04] What do you think? Just start with what do you
[21:05] think about this? And some people will assume that
[21:09] you, because you asked the question that therefore you may
[21:12] agree with this person. But I think most people are
[21:15] receptive to questions and it's then the ball's in their court
[21:19] and they can answer. And that's the thing that I've
[21:21] always found the easiest way to deal with, for example, going to
[21:24] trans protests and debating with trans activists instead of
[21:28] saying, instead of walking up and saying to them, why do you
[21:30] want to allow men into women's spaces?
[21:34] You just ask them, why are you here today?
[21:35] And they'll say, because trans rights are under threat.
[21:38] And you say, well, how are their rights under threat?
[21:39] And they're saying, well, some women want to exclude trans
[21:43] women from women's spaces. And I'll say, well, why do you
[21:46] think they want to do that? And they'll say, oh, because
[21:48] they're transphobic. And you say, well, do you think
[21:51] that women have the right to single sex spaces?
[21:53] And they'll say, yes, but that includes trans women.
[21:56] And I'll say, but do you agree that trans women are male and
[21:59] they'll, and then they won't know what to say.
[22:01] And like just the continuous, I guess it's just Socratic
[22:03] questions. I think that's the best way to
[22:05] go about having difficult conversations instead of going
[22:08] in all guns blazing. I didn't have that approach at
[22:10] uni. I did just say what I thought.
[22:11] And I knew by that point that that was how, that it wasn't
[22:15] going to go down well basically. But I was prepared to do that.
[22:18] It was my last year. I knew that I wasn't going to be
[22:20] there for very long. The other thing is that you do
[22:24] have to make active choices about who you have these
[22:26] conversations with. I have had to make choices, and
[22:29] so have my friends, about which friends or family you choose to
[22:33] have political discussions with. If you value a harmonious, like
[22:37] a harmonious relationship with someone over losing them because
[22:42] of political disagreements, which is such a shame, but there
[22:44] are some people that you just think I would rather keep them
[22:47] in my life than knowing that they will not want to speak to
[22:50] me anymore because of my politics.
[22:52] Some people, you have friends for different reasons.
[22:55] I have friends that I can talk to.
[22:56] I mean, most of my friends I can talk to about politics because a
[22:58] lot of my friends from my previous life, you could say I'm
[23:01] don't want to speak to me anymore because of my views, but
[23:04] that's fine. But if you don't want to get
[23:07] into that situation if you're not sort of publicly speaking,
[23:11] so maybe you do have to make those choices.
[23:12] Where do you draw the line there?
[23:14] Because that's really interesting.
[23:17] I guess what we're speaking about here is free speech.
[23:19] And you're now the external affairs officer at the Free
[23:21] Speech Union. Congratulations.
[23:22] Thank you. Smashing it with that job.
[23:24] Lots of media stunts or stunts, publicity hits.
[23:27] Yeah. Where is the line for what you
[23:31] shouldn't, shouldn't discuss? Because the key element of free
[23:34] speech is not just having the right to say what you want to
[23:38] say as long as it's not hate speech.
[23:40] It's also having the right not to say certain things as well.
[23:44] So where's the line with what you should have to speak about
[23:48] with friends and family and people at university versus what
[23:51] you can actually resist and go, you know what?
[23:54] I just don't want to speak about this.
[23:57] I don't think anyone has an obligation to speak about
[23:59] anything, but the difference is when someone's in a position of
[24:02] power. So for example, my case, at
[24:04] least, student radio was a, it's a society at a student union who
[24:08] claims to uphold freedom of speech.
[24:10] But then they have a caveat about inclusivity, which
[24:12] basically means you can have free speech as long as you don't
[24:14] say anything that falls out of what we believe in, which is
[24:17] trans men and women, all the rest of it.
[24:18] And so. It's like a custom postmodernist
[24:21] free speech. I think that some people have a
[24:25] duty to have all these difficult conversations.
[24:27] Politicians I think shouldn't be allowed to, I guess shouldn't be
[24:34] allowed. Does it make sense?
[24:35] Because they can just avoid certain tricky questions.
[24:37] But the point is, the electric has the power to either vote
[24:40] them in or not, or vote them out.
[24:42] So it's perhaps not a legal restriction that should be
[24:46] imposed on them, but there is a moral duty there to answer
[24:49] certain questions. And if they don't, I guess in
[24:52] the democracy that we're in, you'd expect them to be voted
[24:55] out. Yeah, then the public can decide
[24:56] what they think after seeing them answer or not answer a
[24:59] question or deliberately avoid. But in places like schools,
[25:04] teachers absolutely have a responsibility to be having
[25:06] these difficult conversation conversations with students and
[25:10] not making them feel like certain questions are wrong.
[25:14] Friends and family, I guess it's that's, you know, your private
[25:17] life and but I would, you know, if I was a parent, I would very
[25:21] much encourage questioning because you don't want your
[25:24] child to grow up and blindly believe in anything because that
[25:27] really is teaching them to not to be critical thinkers.
[25:31] I want us to linger on this point of safety that I think
[25:34] we've skirted around because this I see as being one of the
[25:39] core tenets of this kind of woke victim mindset, is a
[25:43] prioritisation of safety and a warping of the definition of
[25:48] safety, right? It used to mean an absence of
[25:52] physical danger or physical harm, whereas now it's drifted
[25:56] into not even permitting conversations to be had, right?
[26:00] Do you think there's been too much of A focus on safety for
[26:04] our younger generation? There's definitely been a focus
[26:10] on making sure that there is control around certain
[26:13] conversations. Even at uni, there was one
[26:16] example where the student union hosted an afternoon where local
[26:20] council leaders and the local MP Alex Oble came to talk to
[26:26] students. And before we started there was
[26:28] a piece of paper, more than one piece of paper, multiple sides,
[26:31] explaining how we should have these conversations, what you
[26:34] should do if someone says something problematic.
[26:36] It was absolutely insane and I was told I want to talk about
[26:41] single sex spaces. I also wanted to talk about the
[26:43] rape gangs because there had recently been a story that I'd
[26:46] helped break for GB News about a building in Beeston, which is a
[26:50] suburb of Leeds, where a convicted rape gang member owned
[26:57] this building and the council was considering it to be
[27:00] converted into a children's care home.
[27:03] And I wanted to ask local politicians about this because
[27:07] as a student in Leeds, it concerns me that the local
[27:09] council would have such disregard for the safety of
[27:12] young women. And I was told that that wasn't
[27:16] what we were meant to be speaking about here.
[27:17] I accept that it was more about sort of, you know, rent prices
[27:20] and stuff, but how often do students get to speak to their
[27:22] local MP face to face in a setting where there are other
[27:25] people to witness what they say? And there were, you know, we
[27:29] were, I was actually, the conversation was shut down.
[27:31] It was really shocking and I was extremely angry.
[27:35] It's very hard to contain. But I think that ultimately, I
[27:43] imagine especially young men in our in Gen.
[27:46] Z are absolutely defying this precedent that's been set about
[27:52] having safe conversations. They are much more likely to be
[27:55] voting reform and young women and our generation much more
[27:58] likely to be voting Green. I think that we've been so
[28:02] safetied that people are now desperate to learn.
[28:05] I mean, our experience working with Vinay Kapoor, my colleague
[28:08] at the FSU, when he and I occasionally go to schools, that
[28:12] students are desperate to have these controversial
[28:15] conversations. You can see their eyes light up
[28:17] like when we went to speak in a school recently, I could see
[28:22] that they were really engaged because I was talking about
[28:25] things that I'm sure they don't. I mean, their teacher was great.
[28:27] I'm sure they do get to have these conversations, but not
[28:29] often, you know, talking about Islamophobia and trans.
[28:34] They don't get to discuss it like generally, generationally
[28:37] and socially from the other side.
[28:39] And you could see how engaged they were and sometimes even
[28:41] shocked. Some of the girls in particular
[28:43] had their eyebrows raised when I told them what my why I had got
[28:46] in trouble at uni and about, you know, why we oppose an
[28:51] Islamophobia definition and about people at Hammock Hoskin
[28:54] that we defend people who burn Qurans.
[28:58] I think they're, they're desperate to have these
[29:00] interesting conversations. I remember at school wanting to
[29:02] talk about controversial things. I don't think it's natural for
[29:06] young people to be so safety. And I think that it is just a
[29:08] minority. It's a very politically driven
[29:11] minority of people, often, often at school students, who feel as
[29:15] though they have been ousted and therefore understandably feel
[29:19] like they want a safe space. But that means that then people
[29:23] on the outskirts of those groups kind of go along with it because
[29:26] they see it as their moral duty, and more often is young women
[29:29] rather than men. So I think we're definitely
[29:33] seeing the backlash already and people having these difficult
[29:36] conversation. That's exactly why, like on a
[29:38] bigger scale, you're now seeing this like quite concerning rise
[29:43] of serious ethno nationalism on Twitter at least, because for so
[29:46] long we weren't even allowed to talk about having general
[29:49] concerns about immigration. That it's pushed people so far
[29:52] that we now have really extreme characters going on big
[29:58] podcasts, which I think is great.
[29:59] Actually, I think that we should be airing these opinions out,
[30:03] but the woke people who have demanded that we have these safe
[30:08] spaces where only certain viewpoints are allowed, they
[30:12] have absolutely paved the way for what they now call the rise
[30:15] in the far right. I mean, it's just that it's the
[30:17] consequences of their own actions.
[30:18] They can't claim that, you know, that they have nothing to do
[30:22] with it. They need to take some
[30:23] responsibility for that. Well, it's interesting seeing
[30:26] this hunger. I think mainly from the older
[30:29] generations actually, when I occasionally do go on Twitter or
[30:32] go and watch different YouTube podcasts for more and more
[30:35] extreme characters because people are so sick of the status
[30:39] quo that they're not just moving the pendulum slightly to the
[30:44] right, they're absolutely fucking swinging it all the way.
[30:48] Do you feel any pressure? As someone who does subscribe to
[30:51] ideals that typically get characterized as right wing, do
[30:55] you feel any pressure to go further and further right?
[30:58] Is there a right wing media pipeline that you feel like
[31:01] you're being dragged down, or has it been quite easy to hold
[31:04] on to your own beliefs? I think it has been quite easy
[31:09] to hold on to my own beliefs, partly because I was saying
[31:12] earlier I've always been critical and concerned about
[31:14] Islam in the UK and Europe. So you're already all the way
[31:17] down the right wing pipeline. We say that's right wing, but
[31:20] leftist should be concerned about that as well.
[31:22] I mean, if you look at the way that some Middle Eastern
[31:24] countries, you know, when leftist paired up with the
[31:26] Islamists, it didn't it didn't end very well for the leftist.
[31:29] They should, you know, learn some of that history.
[31:31] It's they should be worried about that.
[31:33] And if they get what they want, they won't be very happy.
[31:38] But I think that now that there are so many debates within the
[31:42] right, we used to talk about how the left could never unite.
[31:46] And that's why we've never seen sort of a successful left wing
[31:51] in recent years anyway, movement where everyone can join in Now,
[31:55] if you don't agree with one thing, you're kicked out there.
[31:58] There is, I don't know if I, I used to believe that there
[32:01] definitely was this thing as woke right.
[32:02] But there's now a very, very current debate on Twitter about
[32:08] whether there is a work right and this.
[32:09] Is kind of what's the work right for anyone that.
[32:11] Doesn't it was kind of it was it was coined by James Lindsay
[32:17] James Lindsay and constant kissing kind of debate about who
[32:20] coined it. And the reason why it's become a
[32:22] huge debate at the moment is because Andrew Gold had Steve
[32:25] Laws on his podcast and Steve Laws is an ethno nationalist and
[32:28] he wants to see everyone who is an ethnically English deport
[32:31] remigrated from the country. And Andrew is believes that
[32:37] there is such thing as a woke right?
[32:39] And he believes that people like Steve Laws supporters really are
[32:42] woke, right? And they're saying that there
[32:43] isn't. But depending on what you mean
[32:45] by woke, And I think from what I understand, Andrew means a
[32:48] certain behaviour about shutting people down for saying something
[32:52] that they don't like. It's not necessarily about the
[32:56] belief system. Depends what you categorize woke
[32:59] as being. But the another example is this,
[33:02] this debate is Layla Cunningham, the Reform London Assembly
[33:06] member who's now been launched as reforms candidate for the
[33:09] London mayoral elections. There are people who don't want
[33:12] her because simply because she's Muslim, even though she's a
[33:15] reform candidate and is saying everything that you'd want.
[33:19] I would say most people on the right would like to hear a
[33:21] candidate for London mayor to say, but because she's Muslim,
[33:25] they don't want her. And that, I suppose, is what
[33:30] some people would call the work, right, Because they're using her
[33:33] personal characteristics as a reason to not like her.
[33:36] I don't think it's exactly the same because I think that, well,
[33:39] to be a Muslim is to be a follower of Islam.
[33:41] It's not an immutable characteristic in a way that
[33:43] being a white man is. It's a belief system, being a
[33:46] Muslim. But then Leila Cunningham's very
[33:49] clear about her position. She's very outspoken about the
[33:51] rape gangs, about Islamism, about integration, about British
[33:54] values. I don't think there's anything
[33:56] more powerful than a British Muslim calling those things out.
[33:59] And actually, she's putting herself at great risk, I would
[34:01] say, by doing that. So I suppose it's someone doing
[34:06] everything right to be let into a group yet still excluded
[34:11] because there's prioritization of identity and virtue
[34:15] signaling. And it's not about the shared
[34:18] beliefs and a mutual agreement on what should be the way of
[34:23] running society. It's a mutual hatred of certain
[34:27] people that are vilified illogically and no matter what.
[34:31] I wouldn't say the people I've been.
[34:32] There are some people online who they definitely are hateful
[34:35] within this debate, but I think other people, they're not
[34:37] hateful. They just it's just their
[34:39] belief. I don't, I don't think it's
[34:40] because of hate. They think the.
[34:41] Peace is identity though, and that's what I've seen as a
[34:44] massive rise as well. Even interviewing different
[34:46] people that skew closer to ethno nationalists, they say they want
[34:51] identity politics back, but a right wing identity.
[34:54] Politics. But this is all a symptom of
[34:57] having left wing woke identity politics being forced down us to
[35:01] the so extreme to the point where we're now we have a
[35:04] growing number of people who believe that you know you're
[35:07] only actually English if you're ethnically English.
[35:10] I mean, I think there is obviously such thing as being
[35:11] ethnically English. I'm not really sure what side of
[35:13] the debate I fall on, but I certainly believe that a multi
[35:16] ethnic society is neither good nor bad.
[35:20] I think it's just that's fine. I'm content with it as long as
[35:23] we're. Not it's not amoral, immoral,
[35:25] it's just it's not moral. Yeah, like there's no moral
[35:28] judgement about it. I'm completely fine with having
[35:32] an ethnic, multi ethnic society. I don't want a multicultural 1,
[35:36] but my point being I'm kind of rambling on here.
[35:38] Is that sort of buying into the ideological space?
[35:42] What annoys me is that there are some young people who, so for
[35:45] example, when I went to Israel, I went to Israel early September
[35:48] and I had never said anything about Israel and Gaza, the
[35:52] Israel and Gaza war and it will all kicked off when I was in my
[35:56] second year union. I just thought I don't know
[35:58] enough about this. I'm not going to say anything.
[35:59] I can't afford to be a turf Zionist and a Tory at
[36:03] university, so I'm just going to pick one.
[36:06] And then I try. I did my best to learn more and
[36:09] watch people that I usually would agree with on things
[36:13] because I thought, well, I trust their judgement on something
[36:15] else. I'm going to see what they think
[36:16] about this. And there was a variation of
[36:20] opinions and nuance throughout all of them.
[36:23] And then I had the opportunity to go to Israel and it was a
[36:26] life changing experience. I think that I view life
[36:29] completely differently now in terms of the value, how lucky we
[36:33] are to be alive and the way that young people are.
[36:36] They are. So they're so positive despite
[36:39] how horrific the situation is and the way that they're so
[36:45] communal and really mixed with one another.
[36:47] I mean, the streets of Tel Aviv on a Saturday night, you would
[36:50] never see that in London the way that it is.
[36:52] Like, it's exploding with people out having fun and it really
[36:59] made me reflect on how lucky I am to live in, you know,
[37:01] supposedly a safe country and made me feel a lot of shame for
[37:05] my generation who wouldn't fight for the UK.
[37:07] Whereas the Israelis have no choice.
[37:09] It's either you fight or you're wiped out.
[37:11] Do you know what it is? I think we have been coddled so
[37:16] hard by our parents and we're living through good times that
[37:20] there is this absence of danger to the point where.
[37:25] We don't know what real danger. Is we don't know what real
[37:28] danger is, and the demand for danger has outstripped the
[37:33] supply. So we try and find it in all of
[37:36] these stupid pointless discussions.
[37:39] Not to say any of the stuff we've gone over today is
[37:41] pointless. But within that, things that
[37:43] just aren't true microaggressions, the gender pay
[37:46] gap, whatever it might be, we look for things that aren't
[37:49] there and we find them time after time.
[37:52] Because ultimately, I think perception is projection and the
[37:56] way you perceive the world and how it is, is going to influence
[38:00] the narrative that you tell yourself, both on an individual
[38:03] level and also also socially. So we're looking for things that
[38:07] aren't there, and we've also lost the fundamental important
[38:13] parts of life, community responsibility.
[38:17] And it kind of sounds conservative for some reason
[38:20] when I say that. There are good things about
[38:22] conservatism. That's why we're conservative.
[38:25] Of course, and I'm not a conservative, but.
[38:28] When I say conservative, I mean like ideologically rather than
[38:32] even though I do like Kenny Badenoch and yeah.
[38:35] Yeah, Well, I'm not a conservative large C, but it
[38:39] does still worry me that the important parts of life that
[38:43] have just been proven time and time again through thousands and
[38:46] thousands of years of history are important.
[38:49] That they're lumped in with this vilified conservative party
[38:53] that's only been in power or contending for power the last
[38:57] couple of decades. Right?
[38:59] That's so dangerous because now there's kind of this political
[39:02] charge with basic human needs like community and
[39:07] responsibility. And I went to Israel last year,
[39:11] now exactly a year ago. And I remember what really
[39:14] struck me there was being in Jerusalem and I went to this
[39:18] corner shop late at night to pick up some snacks with my dad.
[39:22] And I was buying this cheap, childish strawberry fan to drink
[39:27] or something stupid and a bunch of sweets.
[39:29] And I'm indulging in my hedonistic side.
[39:33] And I'm like, OK, this is fine. This is part of my life.
[39:36] I'm going to have some comfort tonight.
[39:38] Fuck the gym. And then this group of guys
[39:42] walks in and they've got a few girls with them.
[39:46] They're clearly on a bit of a night out and they're carrying
[39:48] assault rifles casually because that's what they do there.
[39:52] They're allowed to do that if they're in the IDF and they feel
[39:55] it's a duty to do that because of the looming threat that's
[39:59] constant and these kids. They were probably like, I don't
[40:03] know how old you have to be to be part of the IDF at 16 or 18,
[40:06] but they looked like they're about 1617.
[40:09] They were much younger than I, at least by two years, and I
[40:13] felt like an absolute infant next to them.
[40:16] The way they carried themselves, it was just so different to the
[40:21] way I've seen any guy carry themselves in the UK because
[40:26] there was this genuine responsibility for the girls
[40:28] that they were with, for the other people that were unarmed,
[40:30] for their country and for their community.
[40:33] And you saw it. All it took was looking them in
[40:35] their eyes and you knew that they meant business, or at least
[40:39] could do if they had to on this night out.
[40:42] So it's it's weird when you compare stuff cross culturally
[40:46] and it makes you realize that a lot of the stuff we're arguing
[40:49] about is a waste of time and a lot of the ideas that we shun
[40:54] are actually just fundamental. They should be taken out of the
[40:57] political sphere and into the self development sphere.
[41:00] If anything, we should have more self improvement podcasters.
[41:04] We should have fucking Joe Wicks talking about community and
[41:07] responsibility, not just fitness.
[41:09] But unfortunately, things like responsibility and community and
[41:13] all the other fundamental tenets of being human that's
[41:16] flourishing, they're kind of just spoken about by the Jordan
[41:20] Peterson's and the more political people.
[41:22] Because like you say, when you said all those things you said,
[41:24] it makes you feel like you're saying something that's really
[41:26] conservative. And that word on it's own has
[41:29] been, it feels like a slur to say now for some people on the
[41:32] boat like, but everything you were saying about what we've
[41:35] lost and so important, that's what I saw and what you just
[41:38] said you saw in Israel. And that's why it was so life
[41:41] changing because I thought this is what our society could be
[41:44] like in terms of how we behaved with each other, spending time
[41:48] with each other. And the reason I started talking
[41:51] about Israel was because it was one of those things where lots
[41:54] of people commented because I paid what it was after the
[41:58] something I can't something had happened in the UK and it was
[42:04] after, I think this I was after the government had recognised a
[42:07] Palestinian state without any conditions on Hamas and Hamas
[42:11] thanked them and they said it was the fruits of October 7th.
[42:14] I met October 7th survivors and I went to the, I went to near Oz
[42:19] kibbutz and what really upsets me is how many young people talk
[42:25] about the war and Palestinians and Palestine and they don't
[42:29] even know, They don't know what happened on October 7th.
[42:31] I didn't really know what happened on October 7th.
[42:33] I think seeing the evil of that, I don't think you can see the
[42:36] evil of that and truly say that you are in favour of the
[42:43] Palestinian 'cause as it is, I think when people think they're
[42:47] in favour of the Palestinian 'cause they think that that just
[42:50] means Palestinians have the right to, to their own land.
[42:52] I, I believe that as well. But that's not what
[42:54] Palestinianism is. It's, it's a deep rooted
[42:58] ideology of the destruction of Israel and Jews, I think.
[43:02] But anyway, people, people thought that I had people who
[43:05] had previously supported me with my women's rights stuff said
[43:08] that's it. I'm on following you.
[43:09] It's like how could you? So I really don't think I have
[43:12] bought into an ideological science.
[43:14] There are lots of turfs who are pretty anti Israel.
[43:17] I mean even at the Filia conference, the women's rights
[43:20] conference, but is sex based in Brighton.
[43:22] It was held last year. The whole thing was a fiasco and
[43:26] really embarrassing because there were fights between turfs
[43:29] who are pro Israel and turfs who are pro Palestinian.
[43:33] It actually got physical at points like it's a women's.
[43:36] It was just women there and. There are some proper men left
[43:39] in. There and what also annoys me is
[43:42] that so many people who aren't involved in who don't read and
[43:47] spend time on Twitter. And I think it's I like as much
[43:50] as we slam Twitter, I think going on Twitter really would
[43:53] open up people's eyes to what really is extreme.
[43:55] And people who call Tommy Robinson extreme or far right
[43:58] racist would would realise that actually he's not at all.
[44:03] And that I think, I mean, yeah, Tommy Robinson is the least of
[44:07] our worries when it comes to ideology.
[44:08] My God, in this country on both sides.
[44:12] But yeah, that was a real moment for me where I think some people
[44:15] are going to think that I've just bought into this kind of
[44:17] safe space of sort of Tory turf Zionist.
[44:21] But they don't realise that you get shit from every direction.
[44:25] And there are plenty of people who, you know, the amount of
[44:27] hate you get for supporting Israel and the right for Israel
[44:30] to exist and to be again, opposed to anti-Semitism.
[44:33] It's quite ironic because all of these people who would typically
[44:37] be in favour of the safe spaces and controlling conversations,
[44:40] making sure that no one's feelings are hurt, don't care
[44:44] about whether they hurt the feelings of Jews.
[44:47] And it's not because I care about whether the feelings of
[44:48] Jews, the feelings of Jews are hurt.
[44:50] I care about their safety. And what many of these people on
[44:54] the left who say they can, they care about safety, are
[44:58] supporting causes that are actively putting Jews at risk in
[45:01] this country for some reason. Like, you know, David, Brazil
[45:04] will say Jews don't count. And so there's a lot of
[45:07] hypocrisy that goes on. And for me, it's just about what
[45:11] do I think is true? And that's always been the case.
[45:14] It's not I find I really do try hard to not just go with what I
[45:20] think is the most, the easiest option.
[45:22] The easiest option would have been to say nothing, to say not
[45:25] to just stick to women's rights and not branch out.
[45:28] But as soon as I start branching out, people assume that I'm kind
[45:31] of picking who are The, Who are the people that I who, who the
[45:36] people that I'm going to be safe with who what's going to keep me
[45:38] with the most support? The truth is, whatever you pick,
[45:41] nothing is going to maintain a huge amount of support.
[45:44] Like you're always going to find your niche.
[45:46] And it's not about ideological conformity.
[45:48] I mean, there are things that within my young turf friends, we
[45:51] disagree on so much and like we're having those debates with
[45:56] each other. So I don't, I think there is a
[46:00] risk for some people to go down the ideological conformity, but
[46:02] most people I know certainly aren't.
[46:05] And it annoys me that people who really don't know much and don't
[46:08] spend their lives like people like you or I might do like
[46:11] consuming stuff about what other people think, make really brazen
[46:16] comments and put their judgement on you.
[46:18] And you just think, well, what are you?
[46:19] How, what do you know? Because I know that I know more
[46:22] than you, even if what I know could be wrong.
[46:25] I'm totally open that I might be wrong, but at least I know that
[46:28] I've done far more research than you have.
[46:32] And I'm not. I'm not saying I'm the people in
[46:34] my mind when I think this. I'm literally saying about this
[46:36] about people who have absolutely no interest in politics until it
[46:41] comes to someone they know doing it.
[46:44] And that's the experience I've had from people who maybe I used
[46:47] to go to school with or university with.
[46:49] They've got no interest in politics, but because I've said
[46:51] something that they think is wrong or or evil that therefore
[46:55] they can't engage with it. It's like, but you don't have
[46:57] any opinions, so why would that mean that you have to shut me
[47:00] out of your life? I think a good heuristic for
[47:03] judging people's knowledge and conversation is the louder they
[47:07] shout, the less they know and they're compensating.
[47:10] Well, people would say that's true about me.
[47:13] I would say that I'm shouting more loud than most people.
[47:15] I have a public platform and things like that.
[47:17] But I'm completely like, I'm literally holding my hands up.
[47:21] I accept that I may be wrong and I'm open to being challenged.
[47:24] And that's the issue that other people don't have.
[47:26] They didn't like the fact that I was challenging what they might
[47:29] see as being right or the good thing to do.
[47:32] And the shouting loudest there is perhaps meant more
[47:36] metaphorically than actually how loud you're shouting.
[47:39] It's more the people that are so strong in their convictions and
[47:45] they shout that their opinions true and then nothing else.
[47:49] It's right. Whereas you can be very
[47:50] passionate whilst accepting. Fundamentally you don't know
[47:54] what you don't know and you're open to be persuaded.
[47:56] That's why I wouldn't see you as someone who's shouting the
[47:59] loudest like other people are, because you are open to be
[48:04] persuaded otherwise. But it must be hard.
[48:06] I mean, just to break the 4th wall on your media appearances
[48:10] and going through all the different networking events that
[48:14] I can imagine you've been to the last year.
[48:16] Surely there must have been interesting conversations where
[48:19] people see you as this young buck that's up and coming and
[48:23] they want you to join their party or join their tribe.
[48:26] What's it been like on a day-to-day basis just
[48:29] interacting with all of these big political, philosophical
[48:33] minds? I mean, it's been amazing.
[48:35] I've met people that I never would have dreamed that I would
[48:38] have met only a year ago. I have had.
[48:42] And I mean, that's another, you know, if only these people who
[48:46] accuse me of sort of going down this pipeline knew about all the
[48:49] things that I've turned down in terms of not like huge
[48:53] opportunities. I mean, people who are starting
[48:55] up new groups and say will you, will you publicly support?
[48:58] Us, is there anything that you can speak about?
[49:02] No, not that I would want to because there are parts of all
[49:04] of these places that I support because they're at least having
[49:06] the conversation, but it's like putting your face to a
[49:09] organization that I really don't want to do that.
[49:12] I want to be able to know what I think before or know what the
[49:15] group strategy is before I commit to being part of them,
[49:18] things like that. So the networking has been so
[49:24] fun and the conversations obviously amazing they've been.
[49:27] The other thing is that I just think that some young people, I
[49:31] would have been really nervous to go to a lot of these events
[49:33] that I go to now, just meeting new people.
[49:36] But I think it really is about faking it until you make it.
[49:39] And I don't mean pretending to be more impressive than you are.
[49:42] I mean just being confident and prepared to speak to people.
[49:44] That is how you'll get opportunities.
[49:47] And I'm so glad that I took them when I did.
[49:51] But yeah, I mean, I've been very lucky to be given certain
[49:55] opportunities. And I do ask for, you know,
[49:58] there are lots of people that I'm not too sure about.
[50:01] And I'll ask people that I trust, you know, what do you
[50:03] know about this person and should I be getting involved?
[50:05] And because at the end of the day, I've been on this train of
[50:08] sort of just taking every opportunity I can.
[50:10] And once you're on a roll like that, sometimes you have to.
[50:13] You don't want to be too quick to say, Oh yeah, of course I'll
[50:16] go and do that video with you and I'll join this group and
[50:20] sign my name to this letter. And then as soon as that ends,
[50:23] when it goes public, you realise, oh, that's not what I
[50:25] thought the perception of this group is.
[50:27] And sometimes that's really important.
[50:29] Unfortunately, the perception and what's the word, the
[50:36] reputation of certain groups can be too much to justify joining.
[50:43] I would say even if you believe in the fact that they believe in
[50:46] their cause generally, yeah, I would say that you do have to
[50:50] have caution there. But I would advise any young
[50:52] people to just, if you have any opportunity to go to anything,
[50:56] like the first thing I went to was living Freedom in 2024, and
[50:59] that was literally the starting point.
[51:01] I can name everyone that I've met in the last year of my life
[51:04] started from Living Freedom. If I hadn't gone to that then I
[51:08] don't think any of this would have happened really.
[51:10] Do you think there are any good traits about our generation that
[51:13] are unique to it that aren't just woke safety?
[51:16] ISM that actually A cause for optimism?
[51:19] I think the backlash definitely. What do you mean?
[51:22] Well, like we were saying earlier, I think that young
[51:24] people are definitely rejecting if they're given the
[51:27] opportunity. They definitely reject the
[51:29] safety ISM if they're given, if they're told you can say
[51:32] whatever you want here, you're not going to get in trouble.
[51:37] This is if you have an opinion that you would be felt feel
[51:39] scared to share elsewhere. This is not what this space,
[51:42] this is an actual safe space where people can express their
[51:45] genuine opinions. I think that young people like
[51:48] jump at that opportunity. It's really hard to tell.
[51:52] And because I'm not at university anymore and I have
[51:56] very dwindling number of friends who are not in political spaces,
[52:02] it's hard to judge because I just don't get the opportunity
[52:04] to interact with them, which is why I'm looking forward to doing
[52:07] more work with young people through the Free Speech Union.
[52:12] So it's hard to say, but I think it's inevitable that we'll push
[52:16] back, that young people will push back.
[52:19] And it does concern me that young women are still on this
[52:22] trajectory towards the Greens, for example.
[52:25] But then the Greens, at least they, they're very clear about
[52:28] what they stand for, IE men and women's spaces, although you
[52:33] could, they're not very clear because they use language to
[52:36] confuse people. But that is what they're in
[52:38] favour of. And it's a shame because women,
[52:42] I think in terms, you know, open borders, you know, teaming up
[52:48] with Islamists and denying truth.
[52:53] It does concern me that young women are buying that.
[52:56] But they are more susceptible to social contagion.
[52:58] And I was just lucky that I didn't or at least was able to
[53:02] escape it. I think that eventually maybe
[53:04] more young women will realise that they don't have to go along
[53:07] with it or realise that they were just part of some social
[53:10] contagion. I mean, people who think that
[53:13] what I'm saying might be extreme, that I know.
[53:15] I know some young men who want to take the vote away from women
[53:19] because they want to vote for the Greens or want to continue
[53:22] voting for policies that these young men see that I would agree
[53:25] harming our country. But the obviously, I'd much
[53:28] rather convince them that that's not the right thing to do rather
[53:30] than take the vote away. So I'm hoping that at least the
[53:35] young men will be able to convince them, because
[53:38] otherwise, how are we going to repair relationships between
[53:40] young men and women if they're so ideologically opposed to one
[53:43] another and we've already got dwindling birth rates?
[53:46] It's very difficult to have a relationship with someone that
[53:50] you politically disagree with, actually, I would say.
[53:54] And so I don't know how that's going to pan out of this
[53:55] generation. I think for our survival we're
[53:57] going to have to come to agreement over some things.
[54:01] There are certain things that make you come to agreement
[54:04] easier than others, that put more order over societies than
[54:10] other, and one of the big ones is religion.
[54:13] You've mentioned that one of your heroes growing up was
[54:16] Christopher Hitchens. He was a famous member of the
[54:18] Four Horsemen of the New Atheism movement, and he wrote a book.
[54:23] Did he write more Than Just God is Not Great?
[54:24] Yes, well, he, well, he's got lots of sort of essay
[54:28] collections. Christianity.
[54:31] I I can't. Anyways, God is not great.
[54:34] Great book and famous for destroying Christians in debates
[54:39] with his amazing rhetoric that perhaps wasn't actually that
[54:43] philosophically deep but nonetheless great orator.
[54:46] Incredible interesting person. From what I've seen of you when
[54:50] we've been at other events like Ark, you're also an atheist.
[54:56] I remember you ardently defending atheism against a
[54:58] Christian at like the Ark drinks reception.
[55:01] That was hilarious. You guys are just standing there
[55:04] whilst there was a speech on stage, like going back and forth
[55:07] in a very respectful manner. Do you remember?
[55:09] Me. I don't think it.
[55:10] Was it was definitely you. When?
[55:13] Was this at Ark? Which, for anyone that doesn't
[55:15] know, is very heavily skewed towards Christian.
[55:19] I remember there being a drinks reception for young people and
[55:21] there was a girl on the stage evangelizing from the Bible.
[55:23] Yeah. And then there was another one
[55:25] in the crowd that you end. Up having yes I do, yes I do.
[55:28] Hilarious, that was really. Interesting.
[55:29] You're very passionate. So was he, may I point out.
[55:32] He was and it was very great. You guys should have been on
[55:35] stage. It would have been far more
[55:36] interesting. Point being, you're an atheist,
[55:39] but I've seen you on TV say that you're concerned about the
[55:43] collapse of judeo-christian values.
[55:45] Why do you say that? What?
[55:46] What does that mean? So I do think as much as I am
[55:49] and will always be a huge fan of Christopher Hitchens.
[55:51] I think that even Richard Dawkins says that he is very
[55:55] glad that he lives in a culturally Christian country.
[56:00] I think that the reason why I am concerned about the decline of
[56:04] Christianity in this country is that I think secularization has
[56:06] opened the void for woke ideology, for Islamism.
[56:09] And when I say Islamism, I don't just mean terrorism, I mean
[56:12] political Islam, sectarian politics, which we can already
[56:16] see is just, I mean, look at the Macca, the Maccabi Tel Aviv
[56:20] banning and the way that the police have colluded with
[56:23] Islamists in this case. I mean, it's just wild.
[56:25] That's what I mean when I say Islamism that has the decline of
[56:28] Christianity in this country has allowed this boy to open up for
[56:32] this Western void. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke
[56:34] about, he was a very strong Christian.
[56:38] I think he was a priest or a vicar in the in Nazi Germany who
[56:42] was dissenter, who was tragically executed days before
[56:46] the war ended and Nazi surrendered.
[56:48] But he said that secularisation had allowed really awful
[56:52] ideologies, in his case fascism and communism in Europe, to fill
[56:56] that void. And I think we're seeing that
[56:57] again now that we're seeing a huge gap open up.
[57:02] People want something to believe in and they are filling it with
[57:05] all sorts, whether it's trans, being absolutely hysterical
[57:10] about the climate, you know, whether it's just a general sort
[57:15] of open borders policy, The idea that no matter who is here,
[57:20] everyone is lovely and that there's no difference between
[57:22] cultures. That's what concerns me.
[57:25] It doesn't mean that I, I don't have AI, don't have a belief in
[57:29] God, but I do have a belief in the values that have come with
[57:33] Western civilization, which is undoubtedly judo, Christian
[57:35] values. You want the fruit but not the
[57:37] tree. Yeah, which I'm sure lots of
[57:39] Christians would be very critical of me about, but I
[57:42] can't force myself to pretend to believe in God.
[57:46] You know, I complete. I love, I I think that churches
[57:48] are beautiful and I think that Christian values are great.
[57:50] That doesn't mean that I am not a huge critic of religion as a
[57:54] concept. Like I always loved Christopher
[57:56] Hitchens idea of sort of a celestial dictatorship that if
[57:59] you think you know, why is there a man in the sky, and I'm
[58:01] obviously being facetious hit, but a man in the sky who's not
[58:04] just controlling what's going on, but is it can hear your
[58:06] thoughts and you don't escape when you die, that's when the
[58:09] fun begins, so to speak. Like you'll never free from him.
[58:13] But I yeah, I think it is concerning.
[58:15] And I just think that young people need something to feel
[58:19] passionate about that's uniting and that isn't dividing.
[58:23] And all of these tiny causes are dividing, and especially in the
[58:26] way that they operate and sort of the woke orthodoxy, you have
[58:29] to believe in all of them to be accepted.
[58:32] That's why you see Quiz for Palestine and I think that also
[58:36] the other thing about church is that it is community driven.
[58:39] Young people aren't able to meet other young people in the way
[58:41] that we used to. Less young people are drinking
[58:44] apparently. I mean I can't say the same for
[58:46] my friends, but less people going out pub, shutting youth
[58:52] centres don't exist like they used to.
[58:53] People don't stay in the same village.
[58:56] I had friends at uni who had grown up in the same village as
[58:59] the Prime as they've been friends, the same people from
[59:01] primary school up until the adults in the workplace and they
[59:04] still live around the same area and I'm so jealous of that.
[59:07] But that is really rare. Most people, their parents have
[59:10] moved maybe out of London into a rural area to have children and
[59:13] then you've, you don't know anyone from your past.
[59:15] Whereas in the village where I grew up, my mum's generation and
[59:20] my grandparents, they know everyone and it's lovely.
[59:22] And I love going back there out of London to walk into my local
[59:26] pub and know nearly everyone who's in there.
[59:28] And it's a packed pub that's just beautiful and people don't
[59:30] have that anymore. I think it's declining and
[59:34] that's why I think that resurgence of Christianity and
[59:37] at least maybe church going is quite important because it
[59:40] reminds people how important shared values and community is.
[59:45] And I think that without that, then we open up this huge void
[59:48] to have absolutely no principles and allowing anything to fill
[59:51] it. And that's why I'm concerned
[59:53] about it. It's not because I've suddenly
[59:54] found God. I haven't.
[59:57] The idea of suddenly becoming religious scares me because I
[59:59] think, you know, I would have to have some sort of revelation.
[1:00:01] I don't think that I was brought up an atheist.
[1:00:04] I don't think that. Yeah, I'd have to have a
[1:00:07] revelation, I think, to believe in the existence of God.
[1:00:09] Whether I'd worship him or not is another question.
[1:00:11] So. All the comments are going to be
[1:00:12] all the Christian audience members I have going.
[1:00:14] She's so close, guys, She's so close.
[1:00:17] Yeah, but I still stand by what people, you know, the problem of
[1:00:20] evil for me has always been too much.
[1:00:23] And but then at the same time, I thought, well, actually, you can
[1:00:28] only really believe in the existence of good if you see
[1:00:31] what the alternative is, and that is evil.
[1:00:32] And I think learning, becoming more engaged about what really
[1:00:38] happened. For example, what really is the
[1:00:40] situation in Israel and Gaza and what is the history of that
[1:00:43] piece of land? You can see where good and evil
[1:00:46] is and maybe true evil does exist.
[1:00:50] And I think that also the West, the West is also dealing with a
[1:00:55] type of evil that we've not had to deal with for at least, you
[1:00:59] know, a number of generations. Obviously Nazis and the and the
[1:01:04] Soviet Union in the the 20th century was one thing, but there
[1:01:08] is a difference with Hamas and Islamist terrorism.
[1:01:10] They don't care if they die. They take pleasure in being
[1:01:13] martyrs. You know, at least Nazi Germany
[1:01:17] try to hide to some extent the truths of the Holocaust from the
[1:01:20] German population. Hamas live streamed the
[1:01:24] brutality to the world. I mean, there isn't a word
[1:01:26] brutality doesn't do it justice. There isn't a word to do it
[1:01:28] justice. But it's an evil that the the
[1:01:32] Western people can't understand. You'll never, just never be able
[1:01:35] to understand it. And I think that's why we're so
[1:01:36] naive about Islamism and especially organisations like
[1:01:41] Hamas and Hezbollah. So that's why I'm concerned
[1:01:44] about judo Christian values. Yeah, I have a very
[1:01:48] controversial take for Christian listeners that will get me
[1:01:52] shouted at, especially by the editor next door who's a
[1:01:55] Christian. I actually think that a lot of
[1:01:58] Protestantism, it's almost this form of luxury belief where the
[1:02:05] problem of evil isn't a concern to those people because they're
[1:02:09] growing up in a metropolitan city in the West where there's
[1:02:12] not much evil. So they go, yeah, well, there's
[1:02:14] actually not that much suffering in the world.
[1:02:17] The possibilities that we have and opportunities were afforded,
[1:02:20] they're so vast. Of course, there's a God that
[1:02:23] exists that's warranted all of this.
[1:02:26] Whereas then as I've traveled more and more and I've seen how
[1:02:30] 99% of the world live, the conditions are exposed to the
[1:02:34] opportunities they're afforded, the cap on their potential that
[1:02:38] I don't think exists here in the West, it makes me really
[1:02:42] struggle to believe in God. And I suppose that is a
[1:02:46] variation on the problem of evil, is this limitation in
[1:02:51] people's potential and what they're able to do based on
[1:02:54] their geographic location. But as an atheist, one of the
[1:03:00] best quotes I've ever heard about religion, It comes from I
[1:03:04] think ACDC's tour manager or someone really random.
[1:03:08] And he said God is the name of the blanket we throw over the
[1:03:12] mystery to give it shape. And I think what we've done in
[1:03:16] this secularized W is we've gotten rid of the blanket and
[1:03:22] there are other things now filling that mystery.
[1:03:25] Because as humans we hate uncertainty.
[1:03:28] We hate not being able to grasp the so-called truths of the
[1:03:31] universe. So instead, without God, we try
[1:03:36] to explain the mystery ourselves through over quantifying
[1:03:40] everything, through coming up with wacky theories that will
[1:03:44] stand by, through clinging on to different identities.
[1:03:47] Instead of being religious, it's being left wing or right wing.
[1:03:53] So I think we have killed God. And there are other things
[1:03:57] filling most of all, actually, that mystery, that sense that we
[1:04:02] want to have control over our lives, yet we don't have the God
[1:04:07] that comforts us anymore. And I think along with that
[1:04:12] coinciding coincidentally or perhaps not, with the death of
[1:04:17] God, is also the technological development that we've had
[1:04:21] that's given us more freedom. So we have more freedom and no
[1:04:26] God. We've got nothing covering the
[1:04:29] mystery, and we've got more mystery through freedom and
[1:04:34] having unanswered questions as a consequence of that.
[1:04:38] So what happens? You get incredibly confused and
[1:04:42] anxious and worrisome about what the hell you're going to do with
[1:04:46] your life because you don't have the big man, bearded man in the
[1:04:51] sky to comfort you, although that's a bit of a caricature.
[1:04:54] You don't have this predetermined path here in the
[1:04:56] West because we've got it very good.
[1:05:00] Of course anxiety rates are going to be increasing.
[1:05:03] Of course depression is going to be increasing when people are
[1:05:05] comparing themselves to others and it's no longer just the way
[1:05:09] life is. It's not what God wanted.
[1:05:13] It's your fault because you've got access to everything.
[1:05:17] And I actually think the white pill take on that is that this
[1:05:22] is all just a big fat teething issue because of good things
[1:05:26] that have happened. And I think with our generation,
[1:05:30] perhaps we will solve some of those big questions, some of
[1:05:33] those big problems with having more freedom.
[1:05:37] And actually we'll be able to live in a freer world where also
[1:05:41] we do work out how to hold on to the fundamentals like community,
[1:05:47] touching grass, doing things away from the online world.
[1:05:50] So I'm optimistic. I don't know if you are for our
[1:05:53] generation. Yeah.
[1:05:54] I mean, we have to be optimistic otherwise, I mean, there have
[1:05:56] been times where I've thought, well, we're just finished, like
[1:05:59] as a country, we're finished. And but I do I still judge
[1:06:02] people who and I I don't continue, but people who, who
[1:06:05] say they're leaving the UK. Well, I have to be fair.
[1:06:09] You did, you did say this a little bit, but so maybe I am
[1:06:12] judging you, but I'd, I'd be uncomfortable conversation, but
[1:06:14] then it's not. But I I mean, people who yeah, I
[1:06:19] do judge people who are passionate are really distraught
[1:06:22] about the decline of the West, yet they're they're leaving and
[1:06:25] they're not doing their bit. Who were people who would have
[1:06:27] the ability to make a difference and they're just leaving.
[1:06:30] And, you know, I don't blame young people for doing that, but
[1:06:33] someone that people do need to stay.
[1:06:34] Otherwise, you know, there was the the figures about our net
[1:06:38] migration has fallen so much. Do you know why that is?
[1:06:40] Because so many young people are leaving that so that all the
[1:06:44] people coming in like it means that the net migration has gone
[1:06:47] down so much. But the reason it's gone down is
[1:06:49] because so many young people have left and the left are all
[1:06:51] going to see were you right wingers going on about
[1:06:53] immigration? It's like, and you don't and
[1:06:56] they can't see beyond why the reason why it's gone down to
[1:06:59] next to to a low net number. And it's a shame that all those
[1:07:05] people want to leave. But I think that unless we do
[1:07:09] something, unless something drastic happens and we'll see
[1:07:11] what happens at the next election, then I don't know.
[1:07:17] I would like to be hopeful, and I am hopeful.
[1:07:18] If I had no hope, I wouldn't bother doing any of this.
[1:07:21] But it will be interesting to see.
[1:07:26] But we have no choice. Like, we either stick around and
[1:07:29] fight for what it is that makes the West so desirable and so,
[1:07:36] you know, the best civilization that's ever existed and maintain
[1:07:39] it rather than letting it just fall, just fall in front of us.
[1:07:44] Yeah. Or we're finished.
[1:07:45] So you have to be hopeful, I suppose.
[1:07:47] But how long or how bad it gets before we start getting
[1:07:51] ourselves into gear, We're not sure yet.
[1:07:54] Every time something happens, I think this will have to be the
[1:07:56] moment where people turn around and say, oh, my God, we've been
[1:07:59] all ignoring this problem for too long.
[1:08:01] But each time it gets forgotten about.
[1:08:02] And then the next thing happens, and, you know, the next
[1:08:04] terrorist attack was foiled and the next girl was raped.
[1:08:07] And, you know, the next grooming gang sentence will come down and
[1:08:13] people still don't want to talk about it.
[1:08:15] And I think that from what I understand, people in power know
[1:08:18] that it's an issue, but they're just so worried that I,
[1:08:21] especially for Labour, you know, there are so many, there are
[1:08:25] quite a few Labour MPs, big Labour MPs who are hanging on by
[1:08:28] a thread in their own constituency and came coming
[1:08:31] just narrowly beating Gaza independence.
[1:08:35] They're terrified about what it will mean for their own votes if
[1:08:37] they start talking about the real issue in this country.
[1:08:40] I do think the biggest threat to England at the moment is
[1:08:42] Islamism and until people are prepared to say in a bit that
[1:08:47] then we're finished, we really, we really are finished I think
[1:08:51] if people don't admit that. There's such a self development
[1:08:54] bro thing to say, but I think a huge part of all of this is how
[1:08:57] poor our attention spans are. This rolling 24 hour media
[1:09:02] coverage in TikTok. We just forget, we move on.
[1:09:04] Like I remember with the Donald Trump assassination attempt,
[1:09:07] that was the fucking wildest shit I've ever seen.
[1:09:11] I remember I was ill at the time, so I was kind of having
[1:09:13] these fever dreams in and out, and it was just after it
[1:09:17] happened. So I was just like 24 hours a
[1:09:19] day having this repeat dream of what I'd just seen on TV.
[1:09:23] So like, really stuck in my mind.
[1:09:25] And even coming out of that feverish slumber, I look back on
[1:09:28] it and I was like, do you know what?
[1:09:30] That's what should have been going on inside everyone's mind
[1:09:33] after such a monumental historical event or what could
[1:09:36] have been? Certainly.
[1:09:37] So yeah, I think attention spans felt like absolutely fucked and
[1:09:41] it means that we're less sensitive.
[1:09:42] We're also just more morally detached from the consequences
[1:09:45] of things because we're living online rather than in the
[1:09:48] everyday. In regards to people leaving the
[1:09:52] UKI am one of those people. I made a video about this
[1:09:55] outlining the reasons. One of the reasons, and the main
[1:09:57] reason to be honest, is just because I'm young and I want to
[1:10:00] explore the world and I think that's completely fine.
[1:10:02] But long term I do want to make an impact on the UK and try and
[1:10:06] help save it because I do care about it.
[1:10:08] And especially actually since moving South Africa recently and
[1:10:13] really feeling what it's like living outside of the West, I'm
[1:10:18] more and more desperate to get back to the UK as soon as
[1:10:22] possible. But that's.
[1:10:23] Crazy, I remember you saying you can't wait to get out of here.
[1:10:26] Yeah, I couldn't. And I think it's kind of like
[1:10:29] pick your poison, you know, because there are negatives and
[1:10:32] trade-offs to everywhere you live.
[1:10:33] And at the moment I would rather live in Cape Town than I would
[1:10:38] in the UK. But I see what's good about our
[1:10:40] country and it's certainly worth fighting for.
[1:10:44] And I, I plan on coming back and doing that For now.
[1:10:47] I think it's fine that like, I'm young and I want to learn about
[1:10:50] the world and do my education through travel because it's
[1:10:53] given me so many insights, rather than just staying here
[1:10:56] and trying to fight but being incompetent and doing so because
[1:11:00] I haven't actually looked at what the world is like.
[1:11:03] So I'll be back, but not anytime soon, I don't think.
[1:11:07] But certainly, like, traveling and going outside of the UK
[1:11:11] gives you a sense of gratitude for how good we truly have it
[1:11:15] here. We've run out of time, but I
[1:11:17] just want to go over before we head out what you're working on,
[1:11:21] what's coming up? Talk to me.
[1:11:23] Well, I'm obviously still at the Free Speech Union and I'm sure
[1:11:27] we'll have another busy year. Moment are obviously big
[1:11:31] campaigns are still fighting against the Islamophobia
[1:11:33] definition that this government wants to bring in and the
[1:11:37] scrapping of jury trials. If David Lammy gets his way,
[1:11:39] we'll see far more people being locked up for speech crimes.
[1:11:45] I'm also working for GB News as well, so I do both of them
[1:11:49] alongside each other and you can see me on the YouTube, the GB
[1:11:53] News Originals YouTube channel. It was all part of the same
[1:11:57] channel, but it's just the GB News Originals.
[1:11:59] So that's it really. Can't really give much else
[1:12:01] away, although there is stuff to look forward to in the pipeline.
[1:12:04] And where can you find more of your work?
[1:12:07] My Twitter is under score Connie Shaw and my Instagram is Connie
[1:12:11] Shaw under score.

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