# Why You Should Stop Patting Your Horse | Martin Black on Western Horse Training

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 10 Aug 2026, 1 h 01 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/Martin_Black_2_Part_1_Libsyn.mp3?dest-id=4715857

We pat our horses to tell them they did well. Martin Black says the horse would rather we kept our hands to ourselves. He has spent a life inside western horse training — starting close to five hundred colts a year on the same Great Basin country his family has ranched since the 1860s, seventy miles from his nearest neighbor, the road over the mountain closed all winter. And what he showed me this week is that the pat is for us. The reward the horse is after is chemical: the flood of serotonin and dopamine that arrives when pressure lifts and the body comes home to rest. Martin calls it the cocktail. Rouse the horse, bring him down, and he licks his lips — he got his drink, and he will go to that edge with you again because he knows you will take him to the bar after. This is western horse training as one of its living masters practices it, and almost none of it looks like technique. Martin reads a colt the way the rest of us read a single sentence — ten things at once. He calls it peripheral thinking. The predator in us locks onto the prey: the outcome, the lead change, the plan for the day. Martin holds the objective and lets the plan bend to whatever the horse hands him. The seed that wants to grow today gets watered today. The one that is not ready waits. We talk about the hours. I could shadow him in Idaho for years and still not own his timing, because feel does not transfer. You earn it one horse at a time, and no clinic sells it. We talk about why he trains his cattle the way his family has since the 1860s — the rodear, the old vaquero work that crossed from Spain and reached Texas two centuries late — and why a dressage horse belongs on a cow as much as any ranch gelding does. And we go into the cowboy neuroscience of it: sympathetic arousal, homeostasis, pressure and its relief as one thing rather than two. Dr. Steve Peters pulled Martin out of a lineup for this. Martin calls himself a bartender. He once waited forty-five minutes on a traumatized cutting mare, feeling her heartbeat through the saddle horn, until she finally licked her lips and found her way home. Part one of two. In part two, Martin takes it to the ground — reading cattle by the million, and moving one cow out of a herd by leaving her alone. Martin Black is a Great Basin horseman and colt starter who has started close to five hundred colts a year, working the same remote Idaho country his family has ranched since the 1860s. He carries the lineage of Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt into a plainer, harder question: what does the horse in front of you need? In This Episode You'll Learn • Why the pat you give after a good round is for you, and what the horse is asking for instead. • The cocktail — how serotonin and dopamine turn pressure and its release into the reward the horse remembers. • Peripheral thinking: reading ten things at once, and why the predator in us locks onto only one. • Why Martin holds the objective and lets the horse choose which seed grows today. • The forty-five-minute wait on a traumatized cutting mare, and the heartbeat he felt through the saddle horn. • The hours nobody can hand you — why feel is earned one horse at a time. Find out more about Martin Black: website | facebook | youtube Chapters • 0:00 — The pat is for you, not the horse (cold open) • 0:30 — Seventy miles from the nearest neighbor • 5:00 — No formula fits all: hold the objective, bend the plan • 14:38 — Peripheral thinking and the predator's focus • 19:33 — Moving the feet: sympathetic arousal and self-preservation • 28:45 — Why loving on your horse is for you • 31:01 — The invitation: the cocktail, the margarita, the lick of the lips • 39:29 — Cowboy neuroscience: pressure, relief, homeostasis • 50:40 — The colt-starting science project • 51:53 — Can a jumper work a cow? Stockmanship and the rodear • 57:29 — Holding the herd without a fence — and what empathy means Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in…

## Transcript

[0:00] Noelle: When we wanna reward our horse with physical
[0:02] touch, what is the invitation?
[0:05] Martin: Okay, the gesture that I think you're asking
[0:08] me for is not even necessary.
[0:10] The way I see people loving on their horses- Yeah … a lot of
[0:13] times the horse doesn't like it.
[0:14] Noelle: I would totally
[0:16] Martin: agree with you.
[0:16] It's totally for the person.
[0:17] It's not for the horse.
[0:19] I'll show you where to rub these horses that they like rubbed, and it's not where
[0:22] a lot of people patting them, for example.
[0:26] People don't even pet other people like that.
[0:30] Noelle: 70 miles to his nearest neighbor, no power lines, no
[0:34] distractions, just horses, cattle, and the work in front of him.
[0:40] Martin Black reads a colt the way most people can't, 10 things at once.
[0:47] He calls it peripheral thinking, and you can't copy it.
[0:53] This is part one, why the same method that works on one horse falls apart on the
[0:59] next, and the hours nobody can hand you.
[1:06] Before we begin today's episode, I'd love to ask for your support.
[1:11] The simplest way to support this podcast is to hit follow or
[1:15] subscribe wherever you are listening.
[1:18] It helps the show reach more people who care about the same things that we do:
[1:23] better horsemanship, deeper conversations, and a more thoughtful future for
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[1:35] or a comment makes a huge difference.
[1:39] So
[1:39] Martin: thank you for being here.
[1:41] I really do not take your time or attention for granted.
[1:45] Now, let's dive in to today's episode.
[1:50] Noelle: So for everyone who's listening and watching, this is a really special
[1:52] episode because not only is Martin the first to come back, one of the first
[1:59] to come back, certainly the first to record and come back for season two, but
[2:04] we're here in a part of the world that your family has been since the 1860s.
[2:09] Is that correct?
[2:10] So it feels… And, like, we've spent the last couple days, I've been learning
[2:13] from you, I've been watching you, I've see h- w- how and where you work.
[2:19] It's a very special part of the world in my humble opinion.
[2:24] Do you think that there is something unique about living
[2:30] where your ancestors have lived?
[2:33] Martin: Well, you know, I grew up not knowing anything different, and
[2:40] Going to town never was a, a good experience.
[2:43] I mean, we didn't go to town to go to the water park or things that maybe
[2:49] other kids do that's fun in town.
[2:51] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[2:52] Martin: I never got into shopping or there was just nothing in town.
[2:56] It was just a chore that you needed to do.
[3:00] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[3:01] Martin: As a little kid, you got drug around with your mom, you know, getting
[3:04] supplies or going to the doctor or dentist, and none of that was fun.
[3:10] So going to town wasn't something you looked forward to.
[3:13] It was just something that you had to go through.
[3:18] Noelle: Okay.
[3:18] I wanna, like, I wanna paint a picture for everyone who's listening to this
[3:22] episode, because this part of the world is really unique in that…
[3:28] And I mean, there's lots of other parts of the world like this, but I wanna
[3:31] describe to everyone, this isn't just like town is, you know, 10 minutes away.
[3:35] Martin: Well, if you go past, it's 25 miles to my mailbox.
[3:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[3:42] Martin: It's 70 miles to my next-door neighbor.
[3:46] Noelle: If you
[3:46] Martin: go, and you gotta go over a mountain range, which is,
[3:48] the road's closed in the winter-
[3:50] Noelle: Yes
[3:50] Martin: to get there.
[3:51] So I'm kinda on the edge of the world.
[3:54] And if you go to the south, you're almost to Winnemucca, Nevada, or Battle Mountain,
[3:59] Nevada, before you run into civilization.
[4:03] There's a few cow camps out on the Owyhee Desert, but nobody lives out there.
[4:08] It's a very remote area if you go west and south from me.
[4:12] Now, if you go east or north, Boise is an hour away, which is convenient-
[4:17] Noelle: Yep
[4:17] … Martin: to get to the airport.
[4:19] We have a couple little towns with grocery stores to the, to the east, like,
[4:24] you know, 20 minutes away, small town.
[4:27] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[4:28] Martin: Uh, and another larger town that's 40 minutes away
[4:31] that you can go to the doctor.
[4:33] But no, it is, it is a pretty remote area, and it's also a very arid
[4:37] area, so there's not a lot of life.
[4:39] It doesn't support a lot of life.
[4:41] I mean, there's water in this canyon.
[4:45] Uh, six miles south is the next water.
[4:48] Noelle: Yeah.
[4:49] Martin: So if you're a coyote, you're gonna have to travel for
[4:53] water, and it's about 15 miles to the north to the next water.
[4:57] Noelle: Okay.
[4:57] This l- this connects into a question you had for me.
[5:02] Do you wanna ask it for me, or do you want me to read it?
[5:04] Martin: Go ahead and read it.
[5:05] Noelle: Okay.
[5:06] So Martin sent me two questions last night when we were talking about what we were
[5:10] gonna talk about He said, "Well, I got two questions for you, and I'm gonna sit
[5:14] there… I'm gonna send it to you so you can s- sit with it or think about it."
[5:18] Martin: Just 'cause I knew you'd have to talk about it last night.
[5:22] I wanted you to sleep on it.
[5:26] Noelle: So you said, "The second question," and I'll ask the second
[5:29] question first in classic Noelle fashion.
[5:31] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[5:32] " Noelle: What's the biggest takeaway you're leaving with from this visit?"
[5:38] So I thought a lot about it, but often the
[5:43] Martin: f- That's why I didn't ask you last night.
[5:45] Noelle: And one of the things that really stood out to me was
[5:51] there are no distractions here
[5:56] It's like this, unla- for lack of a better reference, like
[6:01] there's a, it's a blank canvas.
[6:04] There's no Netflix, there's no grocery stores, there's no Starbucks, there's no
[6:11] Martin: No power lines.
[6:12] Noelle: No power lines.
[6:13] There's no white noise, there's no… There's horses, and horses,
[6:21] and cows, and stockmanship.
[6:24] But what's very noticeable to me is the world in which you
[6:29] live in is void of distractions.
[6:33] You wake up and you know exactly what you're working on that day, and
[6:37] there's a certain, there's like this
[6:41] Martin: The biggest difference of this ranch now and 100 years ago
[6:44] is we have a solar unit for power
[6:47] Noelle: Right
[6:48] Martin: We didn't have 100 years ago But pretty much everything
[6:52] else hasn't changed much
[6:56] Noelle: I think that to me it then now explains, like, how clearly
[7:02] you see your world and how it allows you to focus on horses.
[7:08] Now I understand how you've done everything and have the space and
[7:15] time and focus to work on what matters to you, which is your
[7:20] horsemanship and your stockmanship.
[7:21] Martin: Well, this piece that's here, uh, people pretty
[7:27] much love it or they hate it.
[7:29] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:29] Martin: Uh, for example, a- and not just this place, but
[7:33] a lot of these remote ranches-
[7:35] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[7:36] Martin: you know, in the Great Basin and anywhere else.
[7:38] The wives that come out, you know, with their cowboy husbands,
[7:44] the guys might love, uh, their job and love their location.
[7:48] The women usually love it or they hate it.
[7:51] Noelle: Right.
[7:52] Martin: They either love the peacefulness of it, or they hate being away from town.
[7:56] Noelle: Yeah, that's fair.
[7:57] Martin: Yeah.
[7:57] Noelle: Right.
[7:58] Martin: Yeah, yeah.
[7:59] I mean, it is what it is.
[7:59] That's not a criticism.
[8:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[8:01] Martin: And they, they, there's a saying about the desert, "If
[8:04] you live there a year at your own will, you'll never wanna leave."
[8:09] Noelle: Hmm.
[8:12] 'Cause that's the other thing that really… So when I started to,
[8:15] so I was talking to Ben about the space that exists here, and then I
[8:20] kind of wanted to go a layer deeper.
[8:21] So I was thinking, okay, that explains that self-reliance
[8:28] Right?
[8:29] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[8:29] Noelle: That explains the, like it explained to me so many aspects of
[8:35] your lived experience, the way you explained even like driving down
[8:38] to California to see Tom, right?
[8:40] That's a big drive to go and work with somebody.
[8:44] It's not like you can just drive down the street and have someone
[8:48] help you with something or, you know, there's a lot of self-reliance, and
[8:52] therefore your world is very like, "Okay, how can I figure this out?"
[8:57] Versus, "Who can help me?" And that's such a product of your environment, and
[9:03] that really stood out to me, is your… It also gives you the space and time,
[9:08] like when we're out there with your cows, and I'm so excited to talk about
[9:10] that You're out there maybe on your own, or maybe you, like you even talk
[9:16] about, like not having a h- a, a big team of people to help you with your cows.
[9:22] So you have to get really good really quickly.
[9:25] Mm-hmm.
[9:25] And that's probably true of all aspects of your life, because you don't have…
[9:29] You can't just call the handyman down the road and go like, "Hey, buddy, I
[9:32] need some help. Can you fix this for me?"
[9:35] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[9:36] Yeah, growing up we didn't have to call the plumber to come fix the
[9:40] toilet, 'cause we had an outhouse.
[9:42] Things were very simple.
[9:43] Noelle: Yeah.
[9:46] Martin: Yeah.
[9:46] You, you know, the, the pump didn't break down 'cause you packed
[9:49] water from the spring in a bucket.
[9:51] Noelle: Hmm.
[9:52] Martin: I mean, it was, it was very simple.
[9:54] I'm talking about in cow camp.
[9:55] Noelle: Yeah.
[9:56] Martin: Now, in our… We lived in a house in Bruno that was much more
[10:00] civilized, but even, even then it was really behind the times compared to now.
[10:07] Noelle: I wanna talk a little bit about the, the saying
[10:10] you have no formula fits all.
[10:12] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[10:13] Noelle: And now spending time here in the environment that you live in, I now, like
[10:18] again, it's like I understand a layer deeper, that you can't a copy… I, I call
[10:25] it copy and paste horsemanship, right?
[10:28] But we talked a lot about this formulaic tendency that you
[10:33] can see in the horse world.
[10:35] Martin: So I'm an opportunist.
[10:37] I've learned growing up, uh, you know, my brother and I spent a lot
[10:42] of time in cow camp, uh, as young kids, basically doing like three men's
[10:49] work, and we were just little kids.
[10:51] Noelle: Hmm.
[10:52] Martin: Uh, just, I mean, my family for generations, pioneers,
[10:58] you just done things shorthanded.
[11:01] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[11:02] Martin: You never had an abundance of help.
[11:03] You never had the money to hire, uh, e- you know, employees or you just done what
[11:09] you could get done, and what didn't get done today, you know, tomorrow will come.
[11:14] Hmm.
[11:14] And if tomorrow doesn't come, well, today doesn't really
[11:16] matter that much anyway, so.
[11:18] I mean, that's the philosophy I grew up with.
[11:20] And, you know, it's kind of adjust to fit the situation.
[11:26] We get ready to go out and like, like we did the other day.
[11:29] What are we gonna do today?
[11:30] What's the plan?
[11:32] Well, I can tell you what the objective is.
[11:34] Hmm.
[11:34] We're gonna go down and work some cattle The plan of who goes where,
[11:40] you tell me, and, and this is, you know, I've managed ranches and run
[11:44] crews and stuff, and people wanna know what's, what's the plan for tomorrow?
[11:50] Well, you tell me who's gonna show up for work, 'cause my whole
[11:54] crew might not show up for work.
[11:55] They went to town last night , you know?
[11:57] So that can be a factor.
[12:01] Changes your plan at the last minute.
[12:04] And you go out there and, you know, your equipment
[12:08] malfunctioned to whatever degree.
[12:09] Okay, so now we have to alter that plan.
[12:13] And maybe the weather made you alter your plan.
[12:17] Okay, and you finally get out there, and you was thinking maybe the cattle
[12:23] would be over here, and they're not.
[12:25] So now you gotta go who knows where to, you know, get the cattle gathered
[12:29] up, and it just goes on and on and on.
[12:31] Noelle: Hmm.
[12:32] Martin: So, but the objective is the same.
[12:35] You have to be able to change your plan.
[12:38] 'Cause when you got a plan and you commit to a plan, then it can
[12:44] be a lot more work to stick to the plan, and it can be much more
[12:48] ineffective if you stick to that plan.
[12:51] But you can still maintain your objective.
[12:55] And even though you might not reach your objective today, we'll shape it up to
[13:00] where we can reach it maybe tomorrow.
[13:03] Okay, so that's just, that's just ranching in this world.
[13:06] There's too many things that nature can throw you a curveball, and the
[13:10] livestock can throw you a curveball, and unreliable people can throw
[13:14] you a curveball, and unreliable equipment if equipment enters into it.
[13:19] Uh, so there's all that stuff you have to adjust for.
[13:23] Okay, so growing up with that and working with that all my life, it's the
[13:29] same with livestock, with the horses.
[13:32] So I'm not gonna say my plan is to go out there and get flying
[13:35] lead changes on this horse today
[13:39] That could be my objective, but it might take me several days of shaping things
[13:46] up, and you just keep working for that.
[13:49] You know, this horse is a little tight.
[13:51] I need to get him a little more supple, you know, in the hindquarters
[13:54] before we're gonna get a lead change.
[13:56] Okay, well, we might work for two or three days on just, you
[14:00] know, getting this donkey to, you know, where he, where I have his
[14:02] hindquarters in better shape for it.
[14:05] So it, it's just, you're just working toward your objective,
[14:09] but you gotta be flexible.
[14:12] Noelle: Yes.
[14:12] Martin: And if there's an opportunity, and a lot of times I'll go out and, you
[14:17] know what, leads can come next week.
[14:20] This sucker really wants to stop today, so I'm gonna capitalize on something else
[14:25] that has nothing to do with my objective, but here's some stuff that I wanna put
[14:30] in my bucket that's right here, so let's take it and put it in the bucket, and
[14:36] we'll add that other to the bucket later.
[14:38] Noelle: And that, I will reflect back that that is something that one of the things
[14:42] that I've found to be the most… First of all, it's one of the deepest parts of
[14:48] your horsemanship that I've ever witnessed of anyone I've ever watched, and I've had,
[14:55] like, Tick and I have talked about this.
[14:57] It blows my mind when you work with a horse how you can pivot,
[15:02] and you can go, "Oh, perfect.
[15:03] This is, you know, this is happening.
[15:05] Oh, great.
[15:05] We can work on this," or, "Oh, the horse is doing this or leaning towards
[15:09] that or whatever." And you have, because you've worked with s- like,
[15:14] thousands and thousands of horses, you have all these case studies in your
[15:18] mind that you can go, "Oh, perfect.
[15:19] I'll just pivot, and I'll work on, you know, like, leg yield,
[15:24] moving off the leg here or…"
[15:26] And on the ground with, like, a two-year-old, right?
[15:28] Like, you're setting your… It's, it's so, and it r- it, it kind of reminds me,
[15:33] like, if you're planting seeds, you know?
[15:36] It feels like a, a few, quite a lot of us, and I'll speak for myself, like,
[15:40] you know, I got a couple of, I know how to plant a couple seeds, and you have,
[15:45] like, a row that you're like, "Oh, great.
[15:47] We'll just go over here, and we'll nurture that seed over here" because-
[15:50] Mm-hmm … there's so many seeds that you have to plant for a horse.
[15:53] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[15:55] Now, and there, there's that side of it.
[15:57] Noelle: Yeah.
[15:59] Martin: Uh, and that's what I'm talking about.
[16:00] I- if I see an opportunity for this seed to germinate and grow-
[16:04] Noelle: Yes
[16:05] … Martin: and this one's not ready, that's what I'm talking about.
[16:08] Noelle: Yes.
[16:09] Martin: Let's nurture this one and get it going.
[16:11] This one will come later.
[16:13] On another note
[16:16] And this back up to the, you know, I'm, I, my objective is to work on leads.
[16:20] Noelle: Yeah.
[16:21] Martin: But I get out here, wait a minute, this is in my way.
[16:25] I gotta take care of this.
[16:27] There's weeds growing around this seed here.
[16:29] Noelle: Yeah, yeah.
[16:29] Martin: Where'd that come from?
[16:30] Noelle: Yeah.
[16:31] Martin: We need to take care of that garbage and get it out of
[16:33] the way before this can grow.
[16:37] Before this horse will change leads, we gotta get, and that's what I'm
[16:40] saying, we gotta get him more supple.
[16:41] We have to get some other things out of the way, this stiffness, this fear, this
[16:46] whatever it might be, you know, that this horse is, has that's in, in the way.
[16:51] We gotta take care of that.
[16:53] And for the greater good, that's, that's gonna help a lot of other things.
[16:59] You know, if he's stiff here, stiff there, a little scared of this, a
[17:01] little scared of that, or leaning toward the barn, or whatever it might be-
[17:05] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[17:06] … Martin: we gotta take care of him leaning toward the barn, or it's
[17:09] gonna show up in any lateral work.
[17:12] Noelle: So this is when I realized, this reminds me of the moment yesterday
[17:16] when we were gentling those young, those two-year-olds And you said,
[17:21] "You're f- you're fixed on rubbing his shoulder, but you're not reading
[17:25] the moment." And I realized that you are not attached to anything, so
[17:33] we talked about attachment, right?
[17:34] You're not attached to an outcome.
[17:38] You're reading the moment, moment to moment.
[17:40] Mm-hmm.
[17:40] And this is where I always come back and I, like, harp on in
[17:42] the podcast about presence.
[17:44] Mm-hmm.
[17:44] And I am guilty of, like, I am just as guilty as the next person
[17:48] at having to work at presence.
[17:51] You, like, yesterday was such a clear moment in the round pen where
[17:55] I was like, you're like, "You're fixed on rubbing that shoulder."
[17:57] Mm-hmm.
[17:57] "And you're not looking at the situation as a whole."
[18:00] Martin: That's what I call peripheral thinking, and I didn't know
[18:04] that everybody didn't think that way- … till I got out in the world.
[18:09] It took me a while to figure out, I mean, these are smart people.
[18:13] A lot of them are highly educated, smarter than me.
[18:16] It's like, why in the hell can't they see 10 things at the same time?
[18:21] Noelle: I want to take a quick pause to invite you into my brand new Substack.
[18:27] Each week, I publish essays on the horse world, from equine industry insights,
[18:32] horse culture, equine economics, even the more mystical, spiritual, and
[18:38] relational side of life with horses.
[18:42] It's where I write more candidly about what I'm seeing, questioning, learning,
[18:48] and working through with my own horses.
[18:51] A lot of these essays are inspired by the wisdom of my podcast guests, my NF
[18:57] Plus instructors, and the incredible horses who keep asking me to look deeper.
[19:03] There are free and paid pieces, and subscribing is a beautiful way for you
[19:09] to support my work in the horse world.
[19:12] You can find my Substack at noellefloyd.substack.com or
[19:18] through the link in the show notes.
[19:20] Now, let's get back to the episode.
[19:24] Martin: I mean, these are smart people.
[19:26] A lot of them are highly educated, smarter than me.
[19:29] It's like why in the hell can't they see 10 things at the same time?
[19:33] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[19:34] Martin: But what I learned is it's the predator that gets in our way.
[19:39] We are fixed on our prey, whether it be a job or, you know, getting
[19:47] the objective on this horse.
[19:49] You know, we're making plans.
[19:51] Back to that a little bit.
[19:53] You had one thing that you was focusing on-
[19:56] Noelle: Yeah
[19:57] … Martin: with that yearling.
[19:58] Noelle: Yeah.
[19:59] Martin: We were halter breaking yearlings.
[20:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[20:01] Martin: First time they'd been haltered yesterday.
[20:03] Noelle: Yeah.
[20:04] Martin: And I'm looking at 10 things-
[20:07] Noelle: Yeah
[20:07] … Martin: for the greater good.
[20:08] Noelle: Yeah.
[20:09] Martin: Keep him quiet, make him comfortable, but still motivate him.
[20:14] We don't wanna get him too quiet and too comfortable with us because then
[20:21] how do we get their feet to move?
[20:22] Noelle: Mm.
[20:23] Martin: We gotta inflict pain or fear to engage their flight mode,
[20:28] or how do we get their feet to move?
[20:30] Noelle: Mm.
[20:31] Martin: And that's something I see, not to get off on a rabbit trail, but when people
[20:35] do too much desensitizing or, uh, a lot of these other things that, that gentle them.
[20:42] That has its place, but you gotta be careful you don't dumb them
[20:46] down to the point that you take away all their self-preservation.
[20:50] What I mean by that is God made horses afraid of man.
[20:55] Their prey animals, we're predators.
[20:56] Noelle: Mm.
[20:57] Martin: That's written in nature.
[20:59] We didn't write it.
[21:01] So and that's why we try to unwrite it, is to make them safer for us, but there's an
[21:08] opportunity there to engage that horse's flight zone to get his feet moving.
[21:14] Mm-hmm.
[21:16] Little gentle shake of the flag and he goes, "I don't know if I like that."
[21:18] Noelle: Mm.
[21:19] Martin: And he walks around.
[21:21] Okay, now that he starts walking, then you can tip his nose and turn him around
[21:25] and, you know, we could push him up behind you and he started following you
[21:29] and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
[21:31] Noelle: Yeah.
[21:32] Martin: Without that, whatever you wanna call it, sympathetic arousal,
[21:36] intimidation, fear, discomfort, I don't care what you call it.
[21:40] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[21:41] Martin: You might say there's varying levels to, uh, define those.
[21:45] I don't care.
[21:45] Noelle: Mm.
[21:46] Martin: Between me and the horse, we know what we're talking about.
[21:48] Noelle: Yeah.
[21:49] We talked about this yesterday, about Ray and Tom and all those
[21:53] guys who had to learn how to teach.
[21:55] Martin: Yeah.
[21:56] Noelle: Right?
[21:56] Martin: So- I'm still working on that.
[21:58] Noelle: It's hard.
[22:00] Martin: Well, it's a different world, for sure.
[22:02] Noelle: You're having to put words into explaining to other people
[22:07] what's happening on an energetic or somatic level is difficult.
[22:10] Martin: Yeah.
[22:11] You can't… It, it's hard to put words to feel and timing
[22:15] Mm-hmm
[22:16] Noelle: And it's also hard, and this is coming back to the no formula fits
[22:20] all, this copy and paste horsemanship, something that I've come to really, and
[22:24] I think you're a huge part of making, me making peace with this, is that no
[22:30] amount of immersion or training lessons, clinics, whatever, is ever going to
[22:38] substitute or replace just the hours-
[22:43] Martin: Yeah
[22:43] Noelle: that you put in to acquire your own timing and feel.
[22:47] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[22:48] ' Noelle: Cause everyone is an individual in that way.
[22:50] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[22:51] Noelle: Right?
[22:52] So I've come to really respect the fact that, like, I could even be here with
[22:57] you in Idaho for years, and being with you and shadowing you might, I might, I
[23:03] might fast-track a little bit, but you're never going to make up for the just
[23:08] the pure hours that you need to put in.
[23:10] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[23:11] It's not just the saddle time or the time in the round corral, it's learning, you
[23:19] know, how to reach out to that horse.
[23:21] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[23:22] Martin: And to go on just a quick little rabbit trail here, what I see different
[23:28] in today's world, the recreation world-
[23:32] Noelle: Yes
[23:33] … Martin: versus, uh, you know, in my upbringing, horses were
[23:37] a working part of the ranch.
[23:39] They were a tool, if you will, but they were not companion animals.
[23:44] Noelle: Right.
[23:45] Martin: That's a, that's a different deal.
[23:47] I mean, we had a great respect and spent a lot of time making good
[23:50] horses and everything, and, and we'd go way out of our way for 'em.
[23:54] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[23:55] Martin: But they were horses.
[23:56] They didn't sleep in the house with us.
[23:58] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[24:00] Martin: But what our interaction was based on is efficiency and effectiveness,
[24:07] because we had a lot of other things that needed to be done at the same time.
[24:10] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[24:11] Martin: Whereas in the recreation world, you know, after work and
[24:16] all weekend, we're gonna go spend time with our companion animal.
[24:20] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[24:21] Martin: And I see that gets in the way with the relationship
[24:24] people have with their horse.
[24:25] Horse gets bored.
[24:27] Noelle: Yes.
[24:28] Mm-hmm.
[24:28] Martin: Instead of cutting it off, we're there for… They are there for their
[24:34] emotional needs, and they wanna cuddle, and they wanna experience and everything.
[24:39] I never had one horse to spend that much time on.
[24:44] When I was in high school, you know, I was, I was starting, like, 20, 25 colts.
[24:49] I had plenty of horses to ride- Mm
[24:51] after school.
[24:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[24:53] Martin: And it's just like there was no- never a shortage of horses.
[24:57] Noelle: Mm.
[24:58] Martin: Just the opposite.
[25:00] There's, "Don't spend too much time on that one. There's 10 more waiting." I
[25:04] Noelle: know we've talked about this, and we talked about this in, in, in
[25:07] season one, about that transition that took place between a working partnership
[25:14] to a recreational partnership, right?
[25:16] In, in the horse world.
[25:18] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[25:18] Noelle: And it's a very important line that we, we, we
[25:21] went from one side to another.
[25:23] Very important moment to talk about, because what I realize, I, I've never
[25:31] realized more than yesterday how attached I get to an outcome, and I think I'm
[25:36] guilty of it in all aspects of my life.
[25:38] Martin: You're a nurturer.
[25:40] Noelle: I'm a nurturer, for sure.
[25:41] Martin: You're born, it's in your, it's in your hormones.
[25:43] That's, that's, it is what it is.
[25:44] Noelle: Yeah.
[25:45] Mm-hmm.
[25:45] And I, I realize that I get very attached to an outcome, and that I
[25:49] need to work more on being present and having that peripheral, that peripheral
[25:55] view that you talk about, right?
[25:56] Mm-hmm.
[25:57] Where I'm looking at everything that's happening, and then
[25:58] I'm adjusting in real time.
[26:01] And I wonder, actually, whether when we made that transition… Because
[26:06] you talk about in the ranching world, you have an objective that
[26:10] day, but it may or may not happen.
[26:11] Weather might happen.
[26:12] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[26:13] Noelle: You might not ha- have enough help.
[26:15] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[26:15] There's- Might have to happen tomorrow.
[26:16] Noelle: Right.
[26:16] And so the environment, the environment created more pliability and more,
[26:26] just m- more requirement for presence.
[26:28] Now, fast-track to now, where we've transitioned into a
[26:31] recreational relationship.
[26:33] I mean, there's still a lot of professional relationships.
[26:35] We have a lot of Olympians going to- Mm-hmm,
[26:36] Martin: mm-hmm
[26:36] … Noelle: you know, high-level, high-performance sport with their horses.
[26:40] So that would, I would deem that more of a professional relationship, right?
[26:44] But when we look at the recreational environment that we live in with
[26:48] horses- Sometimes I realize that we are all guilty of kind of similar to
[26:55] like, you know, if you, "I wanna run a half marathon by March." Right?
[27:01] We apply that same goal setting, and goal setting is important, but we apply
[27:06] that same goal setting with our horses.
[27:08] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[27:08] Noelle: And that's where horsemanship goes to die in some
[27:12] Martin: ways.
[27:12] Well, you wanna, you wanna dumb it down so you don't have to work so hard.
[27:17] Is that what you're talking about?
[27:17] Noelle: Whoa.
[27:18] Yeah.
[27:18] No, but, okay, wait.
[27:20] Let's dive into that.
[27:22] Okay.
[27:22] Martin: Well, that's, that's what I see.
[27:26] We want… The, the reason for horses for, I would say the majority of people
[27:32] today, is for the emotional connection.
[27:36] It's that lack of whatever it is in their life, you know, the companion dog,
[27:41] the companion horse, whatever it is.
[27:43] Noelle: Mm.
[27:44] Martin: Growing up, everything had a purpose.
[27:46] Our dogs were working dogs.
[27:48] Noelle: Mm.
[27:48] Martin: We liked our dogs, our dogs liked us, but they were working dogs.
[27:52] We didn't have them in the house.
[27:54] We didn't have them as companion animals.
[27:56] Noelle: Mm.
[27:56] Martin: You know, you don't pet another man's dog.
[27:59] That's just something I grew up with, and I don't pet other people's dogs today.
[28:03] Noelle: Mm.
[28:03] Martin: People say, "You don't like dogs." No, I like dogs.
[28:06] I just don't pet other people's dogs.
[28:07] Noelle: Mm.
[28:08] Martin: It's disrespectful to that person.
[28:11] If that's a working dog and, you know, he goes out there and he's scolding his dog
[28:16] for not being in position or something, the dog just gives him the finger and
[28:20] says, "I'm gonna go over to Noëlle.
[28:22] She petted me.
[28:22] She's nice to me." Mm. "You're not being nice to me."
[28:25] Noelle: Mm.
[28:26] Martin: You know?
[28:26] It's like, you know, it's like taking somebody else's kid, you know?
[28:32] Mm. And you don't, you just don't go there.
[28:35] That's disrespect for somebody else to, you know, take their
[28:39] animals and soften them.
[28:41] It's totally acceptable, it's, in this other world, this recreation world.
[28:45] Noelle: Well, yeah, because I do think, and I'm, you know,
[28:47] like, I'm the first, you know me.
[28:48] I mean, I'm the first, I wanna love on my horses.
[28:51] I love to love on my horses.
[28:51] Mm-hmm.
[28:52] And the emotional connection that I have
[28:55] Martin: with- But the way I see people loving on their horses- Yeah … a lot
[28:57] of times the horse doesn't like it.
[28:58] Noelle: And I would agree with you.
[29:00] I would totally
[29:01] Martin: agree with you.
[29:02] It's totally for the person, it's not for the horse.
[29:04] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[29:04] Martin: Just like I was sh- showing you last night.
[29:06] Noelle: Yeah.
[29:07] Martin: I'll show you where to rub these horses that they like rubbed.
[29:10] Noelle: Yes.
[29:11] Martin: And it's not where a lot of people patting them, for example.
[29:15] People don't even pet other people like that.
[29:19] I don't even, I can't understand where that comes from.
[29:22] Noelle: Okay.
[29:22] Actually, I think Steve- … Dr. Steve Peters is gonna love that we
[29:25] li- we need to, like, I wanna, I wanna, like, really lay a stake in
[29:30] the ground here on this, because this is something that I grew up with.
[29:33] Patting, right?
[29:35] You finish a round, your horse jumped great, and you pat them.
[29:40] Okay?
[29:41] Martin: Who said that?
[29:42] Noelle: I don't know.
[29:42] Who started
[29:43] Martin: that?
[29:43] Noelle: I don't know.
[29:44] But they need to… I, I wanna, like, yell this from the rooftops with you, because I
[29:48] know s- and I know Steve will appreciate.
[29:50] Okay?
[29:51] Horses do not, and even the science shows, that their cortisol levels will spike.
[29:58] They, like, until they associate that pat with something
[30:01] positive, it is not considered-
[30:04] Martin: It…
[30:05] Well, the positive is the negative's going away.
[30:08] Noelle: Right Oh, they're not whacking on my mouth anymore
[30:12] Martin: Yeah
[30:13] Noelle: They're whacking me on the neck instead
[30:14] Martin: The, the horse learns to associate that when they get a pat, all the jerking
[30:20] and pulling is, and spurring is going away
[30:23] Noelle: Right
[30:24] Martin: But I promise you, I go out there and start some
[30:27] colts that don't know anything
[30:29] Noelle: Yeah
[30:29] Martin: And we're developing this relationship, this learning relationship,
[30:34] and I go to patting on them, they're gonna go, "What's this about?"
[30:38] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[30:38] Martin: I can rub on them and I can scratch on them.
[30:41] And I do pat on them to get them to accept the blanket hitting
[30:45] them and the saddle hitting them.
[30:48] But that's a process to get them to accept the patting because they don't like it
[30:54] Noelle: Okay, so everyone's listening.
[30:56] I want, I want, I want you to say this in as like, in, in like a statement, okay?
[31:01] Everyone in the… Imagine everyone in the horse world is listening to this right now
[31:07] Please say what you think or what you would invite us all to do when we wanna
[31:15] reward our horse with physical touch.
[31:18] What is the invitation?
[31:22] Martin: Okay.
[31:23] The gesture that you're, that we're talking about-
[31:28] Noelle: Yes
[31:28] … Martin: and I think you're asking me for, is not even necessary.
[31:32] Noelle: Oh.
[31:33] Martin: You sympathetically arouse this horse.
[31:37] Now, Dr. Peters can nail this better than I can, but if I sympathetically
[31:45] arouse this horse, whether we're doing some cutting maneuvers or, uh,
[31:53] I'm working with a colt that gets a little scared of something, and we go
[31:57] through this process, whatever it might be, this is a sympathetic arousal.
[32:01] Noelle: Yes.
[32:02] Martin: And he can be out of his comfort zone, but not be bothered.
[32:07] In other words, this Special Forces horse-
[32:09] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[32:10] … Martin: he is, he is into it.
[32:11] He's running, he's ducking, he's diving.
[32:14] You know, he's shooting the enemy.
[32:15] Whatever, whatever his thing is-
[32:17] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[32:18] … Martin: he's at the top of his game.
[32:21] He's been prepared for this kind of work.
[32:23] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:24] Martin: And it is very intense.
[32:25] It is very high energy, and that doesn't mean that he's
[32:28] uncomfortable with this high energy- Mm-hmm … 'cause he's trained.
[32:32] But when they come down from that, whether it's this horse that says, "Oh,
[32:37] I don't know what that sack is on the end of that stick, and, you know, that
[32:40] could eat me," or this other Special Forces horse we're talking about.
[32:44] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[32:44] Martin: When they come back down and they get the serotonin and the dopamine
[32:49] and whatever it is, that's the reward.
[32:52] That's the cocktail.
[32:54] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[32:54] Martin: And I've had some of my friends say, "Why don't you pet
[32:57] your horses?" "Because I don't wanna get in their way." The petting
[33:03] is for the person, not the horse.
[33:05] And, and I'll, I'll take it a step further and explain that.
[33:10] So this horse licks his lips, tells me that he's got his drugs.
[33:14] Noelle: Right.
[33:14] Martin: Okay?
[33:14] Yeah.
[33:14] That's the cocktail.
[33:15] Noelle: Yeah.
[33:16] Martin: So what my horses learn is when I get them aroused, whatever path that is-
[33:24] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[33:25] … Martin: and they come off that arousal, they're gonna get a margarita.
[33:30] So they look forward to going to that level with me, 'cause
[33:34] we're going to the bar later.
[33:37] Noelle: Well, and you know what it reminds me of, and I think where
[33:38] everyone who's listening, if, if they can imagine when you ever go for a workout,
[33:42] you go for a run, or you lift weights or whatever, and that feeling after-
[33:48] Martin: Mm-hmm
[33:49] … Noelle: it makes-
[33:49] Martin: The dopamine.
[33:50] Noelle: Yeah.
[33:50] So we're- The
[33:51] Martin: serotonin
[33:51] … Noelle: yeah, and we're also coming down, that all that release- Mm-hmm
[33:54] right?
[33:54] That, like, release of all the physical pressure that you've
[33:57] been putting your body under.
[33:58] Mm-hmm.
[33:58] And you feel really good after the gym.
[34:01] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[34:01] Noelle: I think of, imagine if Ben or you came over and I was just,
[34:05] like, I was just blissed out, right?
[34:06] I'm sitting there going, "I just, like, lifted some big weights,"
[34:08] or, "I just went for a big sprint," and then my body's, like, relaxing
[34:11] from, coming down from that.
[34:12] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[34:13] Noelle: And they started wha- you guys started whacking- Exactly … on my back.
[34:16] Uh.
[34:16] Martin: When, just before that gets there-
[34:18] Noelle: Yeah
[34:19] … Martin: they grab you by the collar and go smack, smack, smack, smack, smack.
[34:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[34:23] Martin: It totally breaks it up.
[34:24] Noelle: Yes.
[34:25] Martin: Now that kicks you back into the whatever, cortisol or whatever.
[34:28] Yeah,
[34:28] Noelle: you're going, "Oh."
[34:29] Martin: And they just screwed it up.
[34:31] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[34:32] Martin: And, and I see that.
[34:33] So now you get the people that say, "Yeah, but when I pat my horse, he
[34:38] licks his lips." That's because he knows that all the, the pressure is, is gone.
[34:43] Noelle: Yes.
[34:44] Martin: That's, that's a learned response.
[34:46] That's not just what they come from.
[34:48] My horses are gonna get that without petting them.
[34:52] Noelle: And don't you think that there's a power in the, being present with your
[34:55] horse as they're having that cocktail?
[34:57] So it's like having a drink, like you and I having a drink at the bar.
[35:00] You're gonna build that strong bond because, oh, I'm at the bar having,
[35:04] I'm relaxing from my heavy day at work, and I'm having a glass of wine, and
[35:07] I'm having a glass of wine with Martin.
[35:09] And so they're just being present with each other through that process.
[35:14] Martin: Well, not, not saying a lot of other people don't do
[35:16] what I'm talking about here.
[35:18] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[35:18] Martin: But there's a lot of them that don't And the difference
[35:22] is, like I say, these horses that really like to work a cow
[35:28] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[35:28] … Martin: you can just tell.
[35:29] They go in the herd, and they just get like, "Who's gonna
[35:32] challenge me," you know?
[35:33] I mean, you can just feel it in them.
[35:34] Totally.
[35:34] Right?
[35:35] Noelle: Yeah.
[35:35] Martin: And it's the same with jumping horses or anything else.
[35:37] Noelle: Absolutely.
[35:38] Martin: A horse that learns his job and likes his job, it's because of these
[35:43] cocktails, whether it's on accident or purpose, whether the person know- knew how
[35:49] to mix the cocktails or it just happened.
[35:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[35:52] Martin: It can just happen.
[35:53] Noelle: Yeah.
[35:55] Martin: But there's also the horse that goes in the herd,
[35:58] let's say, and just wants to close his eyes and go, "Oh my God."
[36:04] " Noelle: I just don't wanna be here." "I
[36:05] Martin: don't wanna be here."
[36:05] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[36:07] Martin: But when he gets out of there, he's gonna lick his lips and say,
[36:11] "Thank God I'm not there anymore."
[36:13] Noelle: Mm.
[36:14] Martin: That's the difference.
[36:16] Noelle: Okay, before we get back into the conversation, I wanna
[36:19] share something that has genuinely changed the way I feed my horses.
[36:24] One of my horses, Lady, who I talk a lot about on this podcast and who
[36:29] some of you know, is a sassy Appaloosa and a notoriously picky eater.
[36:36] She does not like feed with a lot of fillers or chemicals.
[36:39] She is sensitive in every way, including her skin, which has always
[36:43] made feeding her a careful process.
[36:47] She lets me know quickly when something does not agree with her.
[36:51] Finding a feed that she could eat consistently and that supports
[36:55] her overall wellbeing has mattered more to me than anything else.
[37:00] Total Equine by Total Feeds has been that feed.
[37:04] When I first tried Total Equine, I was super skeptical.
[37:09] It looks more like kibble than pellets, and I judged the look of it right away.
[37:14] Also, it's affordable, and as someone who's grown up deep in the competitive
[37:19] world of show jumping, I immediately interpret quality with price.
[37:24] Nothing in the horse world can be both good quality and affordable, right?
[37:29] Well, wrong.
[37:32] My horses have never looked better, and they love it.
[37:36] Thanks to important trace minerals like copper, zinc, and selenium,
[37:41] Lady's digestion is steadier than ever.
[37:44] Her weight is great.
[37:45] Her coat quality improved measurably, and her top line has stayed intact
[37:49] even with time off after our epic road trip across the country.
[37:54] That alone would have been enough to earn my trust, but that trust
[37:58] was tested in a big way when we took Lady and Galano across the country.
[38:04] Traveling over 25,000 miles with your horses demands consistency and
[38:09] nutritional integrity to balance the stress and demands of the road
[38:16] Having a feed I could rely on no matter what made a huge difference.
[38:21] Total Equine kept both my horses nourished and settled through long hauls, new
[38:26] environments, and constant change.
[38:30] They're one of the only horse feeds in the industry to use Norwegian kelp,
[38:34] providing essential iodine, minerals, prebiotics, and thyroid support.
[38:41] I cannot say enough good things about Total Equine by
[38:44] Total Feeds, developed by Dr.
[38:47] Harry Anderson, who I now consider a friend and ally in the fight
[38:51] for good horse care in this time of inflated prices and impossible
[38:56] economics in the horse world.
[38:59] I am careful about what I recommend, especially when it comes to nutrition.
[39:04] I've never spoken publicly about horse feed before, and
[39:07] I am proud to speak up now.
[39:09] Total Feeds has earned its place in my barn because it supports my
[39:13] horses in a way that is noticeable, measurable, and reliable.
[39:19] If you wanna learn more about their approach to feeding, visit
[39:22] totalfeeds.com or pick up a bag at your local Tractor Supply
[39:29] Martin: But when he gets out of there, he's gonna lick his lips and say,
[39:33] "Thank God I'm not there anymore."
[39:35] Noelle: Mm.
[39:36] Martin: That's the difference.
[39:38] See, and my target is whether I'm roping on this horse or working this cow on
[39:45] this horse or anything challenging- Mm-hmm … for this horse, or it
[39:49] could be a colt in a round corral.
[39:51] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[39:51] Martin: Like the babies last night.
[39:52] Noelle: Yeah.
[39:53] Martin: You know, I try to get them to stay quiet, but on the other hand,
[39:58] when they feel the end of that rope and they turn around, I'm gonna pause
[40:02] for a few seconds to get, see if they lick their lips, and they do.
[40:06] Noelle: Mm.
[40:06] Martin: And what I've found is every time the horse will lick his lips
[40:13] after a positive experience, that's like two or 20 good experiences.
[40:20] Noelle: Yeah.
[40:21] Martin: It's like they're checking that in stone.
[40:24] Noelle: Yeah.
[40:24] Martin: And if he sits there for 15 seconds and he
[40:28] licks his lips again, great.
[40:31] He just saved me 30 minutes trying to show him all this, you know,
[40:35] going through the maze again.
[40:36] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[40:37] Martin: That's, and that's why Dr. Peters, by his own testimony,
[40:40] pulled me out of the lineup, is he's seen me being a bartender here.
[40:44] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[40:45] Martin: Which I didn't find this on my own.
[40:48] Tom Dorrance was the best bartender- Hmm … I ever seen.
[40:51] Noelle: Mm.
[40:52] ' Martin: Cause he would do this.
[40:53] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[40:54] Martin: And, you know, Ray and a lot of other people would do it to,
[40:57] to some extent, but I really got to experimenting with it to see how far we
[41:02] could take it, and I waited 45 minutes one time for a horse to lick his lips.
[41:06] It was, it was a traumatized cutting horse, highly stressed, and I
[41:12] just thought, "You know what? I'm getting paid by the day here. I'm
[41:14] gonna see how long it takes or if this horse will lick his lips."
[41:21] Noelle: Mm.
[41:22] Martin: Now, I know, and I, and I had this theory that they can't stay tight forever.
[41:28] They're gonna relax at some point.
[41:31] Is it when they go back to their stall and they know nobody's gonna be around?
[41:34] Noelle: Mm.
[41:35] Martin: Or if I just sit here on this horse Can they stay tight-
[41:42] Noelle: Brace
[41:42] … Martin: forever
[41:43] Noelle: Like a bracing almost.
[41:44] Martin: Yes.
[41:44] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[41:45] Martin: I mean, I could feel this horse's heartbeat, not just through
[41:49] my calves, which you, you can feel it.
[41:51] Noelle: Yeah.
[41:52] Martin: I could feel it through the saddle horn of this cutting saddle.
[41:54] Noelle: Oh, bless.
[41:55] Martin: I thought, "Wow." I mean, this feels like an earthquake, you know?
[41:59] I've never felt that before.
[42:01] And this was a horse that won a quar- quarter million dollars in cutting.
[42:06] And sh- she said, "No more.
[42:08] Can't take it anymore." And they're like, "Hey, what do you,
[42:12] what could you do?" "Um, I don't know, but I'd like to find out."
[42:16] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[42:17] " Martin: That's a challenge I'll take." And she licked her lips after 45 minutes, and
[42:26] I thought, "Hmm, will she do it again?" About 15 minutes later she did it again.
[42:33] About five minutes later she did it again.
[42:35] And it, it just got to where, like, every couple minutes, and then she started
[42:39] yawning and it's like, hallelujah.
[42:43] This is cool.
[42:44] It took, it took over an hour, hour and a half probably, hour and
[42:48] 15 minutes before I asked her to take a step, and then it triggered-
[42:54] Noelle: The-
[42:54] … Martin: the traumatic experience … sympathetic arousal … yeah.
[42:56] No.
[42:57] Yeah.
[42:58] Noelle: So let's, actually this is a good opportunity- … to kind of
[43:01] review a little bit of the s- the neuroscience and we're gonna call
[43:03] it, I call it cowboy neuroscience.
[43:05] Mm-hmm.
[43:05] ' Martin: Cause
[43:06] Noelle: what's very e- exciting and interesting, and I know Steve shares
[43:10] this excitement as well, is that certain horsemen and horsewomen out
[43:15] there have been practicing this equine neuroscience for decades or more.
[43:21] Martin: Well, how do you get anything done that you don't?
[43:24] You know what I mean?
[43:24] It's, yeah, you can beat 'em up and force 'em, but there's
[43:27] still some neuroscience there.
[43:29] Noelle: Right.
[43:30] Martin: It's pretty crude.
[43:31] Noelle: It's pretty
[43:32] Martin: crude.
[43:32] And it's not what, you know, Tom Dorrance was talking about or a lot
[43:37] of us, you know, on whatever level-
[43:39] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[43:39] … Martin: are doing.
[43:40] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[43:41] Martin: But, uh, it's, it's there.
[43:44] Noelle: So we talk about parasympathetic and sympathetic arousal.
[43:50] Parasympathetic, the rest and digest.
[43:52] Mm-hmm.
[43:53] Sympathetic, fight or flight.
[43:54] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[43:55] Noelle: And the importance that it's very important for all of us in the horse world
[43:59] to understand that your horse actually doesn't learn in the parasympathetic.
[44:02] So we don't need, we don't wanna be super-
[44:07] Martin: Well, you gotta be careful saying that.
[44:08] Noelle: Yeah.
[44:09] Okay, so explain, no, no, perfect that for me.
[44:13] Martin: Well, they gotta be sympathetically aroused and to learn-
[44:20] Noelle: Yes
[44:22] Martin: But it's the homeostasis-
[44:25] Noelle: Yes
[44:27] Martin: coming back to the parasympathetic.
[44:30] Noelle: Yes.
[44:32] Martin: So you need this sympathetic for the parasympathetic to be effective.
[44:36] You need the pressure for the relief to be effective.
[44:39] Noelle: The yin and the yang.
[44:41] Martin: Yeah.
[44:41] So one of my- The light and the dark … one of my deals is pressure
[44:45] isn't effective without relief.
[44:47] Noelle: Right.
[44:47] Martin: So the one that's just ripping and tearing on this horse, uh, that horse is
[44:53] only learning to avoid the most pressure.
[44:56] But without any relief, you don't get homeostasis.
[45:00] Noelle: Right.
[45:01] Martin: And that's what I'm targeting.
[45:04] And, and I'm not saying that everything I do, the horse is gonna lick his lips for.
[45:08] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[45:09] Martin: But in the situations that they are gonna lick their lips, that
[45:14] I can just throttle back and just pause for usually it's four seconds.
[45:20] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[45:21] Martin: And you, you, a lot of times you can see the horse go,
[45:23] Yeah "Okay, we're, it's break time."
[45:25] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[45:26] Martin: It takes a little bit for that to unwind where
[45:29] they're kind of staying ready.
[45:31] Noelle: Yeah.
[45:31] Martin: Right?
[45:32] And again, whether it's the colting around colt that's, you know, kind
[45:35] of scared and bothered, or the high-performance horse that's like,
[45:39] "Are we still in the starting blocks?"
[45:42] But again, it's, it's a homeostasis that we're targeting.
[45:46] Noelle: Yeah
[45:48] Martin: any opportunity we can.
[45:50] And that might be, you know, in every few, every however many seconds, I
[45:55] won't say a few seconds, but I could trigger that maybe every 15 to 30
[46:01] seconds- Mm-hmm … in some situations.
[46:03] And other times it might be after a five-minute whatever, or several-minute
[46:09] whatever, and then we finally stop, pause, put our hand down, relax, and the
[46:17] horse, hopefully it's not 45 minutes.
[46:21] Noelle: Yeah.
[46:22] Martin: But still, that's what they learn from.
[46:23] When that mare, after 45 minutes, found homeostasis, it's like,
[46:29] "Where has this been all my life?"
[46:31] Noelle: Mm. Let it soak happens in homeostasis.
[46:36] Martin: Well, I'm not sure who you're talking… I, I mean, I
[46:38] would have to see what somebody is saying that's my let it soak.
[46:42] Noelle: Yeah.
[46:43] ' Martin: Cause it might be they just quit bashing them.
[46:45] Noelle: Right.
[46:45] Martin: That's- The fur, the fur quits flying.
[46:47] That's letting it soak?
[46:48] No, that's not homeostasis.
[46:50] Noelle: Mm. Yeah.
[46:51] Martin: Homeostasis is a definable change in the horse.
[46:55] Let it soak, I'm not sure what that means.
[46:57] Noelle: Okay.
[46:58] Let's explain the definable- … state of, the s- the state that
[47:02] homeostasis, explain that to someone.
[47:05] Martin: Well, I'm not the smartest one in the room for that, but
[47:07] that's when they come off of the adrenaline or any of the other, uh…
[47:13] And I don't wanna say norepinephrine, but I think that's one of them too.
[47:17] Mm. That they get, they get the juices flowing that conditions
[47:22] them, that, that prepares them-
[47:24] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[47:24] … Martin: for this high arousal.
[47:26] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[47:27] Martin: Okay?
[47:28] But coming off of that, you know, the RPMs are coming down.
[47:32] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[47:33] Martin: The engines are, are shutting down
[47:37] Noelle: So the physical signs you're looking for that a horse is coming
[47:41] off of sympathetic arousal and into homeostasis, what are some of those
[47:45] physical signs you're looking for?
[47:47] Martin: Well, it's not just the physical signs.
[47:49] It can be the environmental-
[47:51] Noelle: Mm
[47:51] … Martin: things around him.
[47:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[47:53] Martin: For example, this colt could be tied to a post and I'm flagging
[47:56] him, and I make all this commotion and throw this thing on his back, preparing
[48:05] him for a saddle, and he's like, "Oh, ooh, ooh, I don't like that," you
[48:08] know, "I'm g- I'm scared of that," blah, blah, blah, and pretty quick
[48:11] he goes, "Eh, maybe that's all right.
[48:15] Doesn't really hurt me yet.
[48:17] It's just kind of scary, but I guess I don't need to be scared."
[48:20] Noelle: Mm.
[48:20] Martin: So I stop the commotion.
[48:22] The horse really hasn't done anything, and that's where that… And I won't say
[48:28] it's gonna happen in four seconds, but it seems like it's a minimum of four seconds.
[48:33] It could be 45 minutes, but it, in a matter of time, that
[48:37] horse is gonna not lick his lips because I quit bothering him.
[48:42] He's gonna lick his lips because he's processed this.
[48:46] Mm-hmm.
[48:46] And that's the homeostasis, and that's when these arousal drugs,
[48:54] hormones, chemistry, uh, shut down, and he gets flooded with the
[49:01] serotonin, dopamine, lick his lips.
[49:06] That's not a good explanation, but I'm not the smartest one in the room
[49:08] today, but I- But what, and this
[49:09] Noelle: is-
[49:09] Martin: I, I can show you.
[49:11] Noelle: Yeah, exactly.
[49:12] Martin: I might not be able to tell you, but I can show you.
[49:13] Noelle: But I think it's important, this is practice, this is learning,
[49:17] and you gotta learn and you gotta feel, 'cause you could feel, with
[49:19] those colts in the round pen yesterday, you could feel the heightened state
[49:24] and then the deescalation, and then the, oh, that's what we're doing.
[49:29] I get it now.
[49:30] Martin: Yeah, but the feel, I think it's… You know, when
[49:35] people talk about feel, timing, balance, how do you define that?
[49:39] Noelle: It's so hard.
[49:39] Martin: You can ask 10 different people to define it, and some of them might
[49:43] line up, but I could probably give you 20 other definitions of each one.
[49:47] Like feeling those colts last night, it wasn't a physical thing.
[49:52] It's like I feel lost, but I feel the way home is that direction.
[49:58] Noelle: Yes.
[49:59] Yep.
[50:00] Martin: Is that a feel?
[50:03] Noelle: Yeah.
[50:04] I mean-
[50:04] Martin: So I feel I need to put more pressure on this horse to
[50:09] get him sympathetically aroused-
[50:11] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[50:12] … Martin: to help him find the cocktail.
[50:15] And at some point I'm gonna feel now is the right time to take the pressure away.
[50:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[50:24] Martin: And it's only gonna take a handful of times for him, and he's
[50:27] gonna be ready to throw a saddle on, and he's gonna stand there
[50:30] because he's accepted what I'm doing.
[50:34] And that's where in my colt-starting business I've really tried
[50:38] to accelerate that process.
[50:40] Noelle: Mm.
[50:42] Martin: I might have 40 head of colts to saddle today.
[50:45] I mean, easily 20 when I was contract-
[50:48] Noelle: Mm
[50:48] … Martin: contracting.
[50:48] That's, that's why they had me do this, is because my process, I won't say it
[50:53] was fast as much as it was efficient.
[50:58] Mm-hmm.
[50:58] I didn't waste a lot of time doing something 10 times that I could do three
[51:02] times and it would be more effective.
[51:04] Noelle: Yes.
[51:04] Martin: I, I don't mean to sound like I'm blowing my own horn.
[51:07] That was my science project, and I had all these white rats to experiment with.
[51:13] That's what I loved about the colt-starting-
[51:15] Noelle: Mm
[51:15] … Martin: business.
[51:17] You know, I'd, I'd done, like, 500 head a year.
[51:19] And once they was riding, I really didn't care.
[51:22] I mean, it was those first impressions-
[51:24] Noelle: Yeah
[51:25] … Martin: that really lit my fire.
[51:27] And, you know, getting them saddled, getting them all those first impressions,
[51:33] you know, and basically doing all this experimenting with this chemistry,
[51:37] which I didn't even know I was…
[51:39] I never thought about it that way.
[51:40] Noelle: Yeah.
[51:41] Martin: I knew, I knew things were happening, but I never
[51:42] thought about it that way.
[51:44] But again, that's why Dr. Peters pulled me out of the lineup is like, "You're a mad
[51:49] scientist at this." "Yeah, and I love it."
[51:53] Noelle: Let's talk about working cows, because this is another component of
[51:58] ranch work and working with horses in this environment that I think really enriches
[52:06] our horsemanship, and I've experienced it firsthand this week working with you
[52:10] and working with my horses on your cows.
[52:13] It's very important, I think, that the horse world feels not only invited
[52:20] to try it with whichever horse.
[52:22] So first of all, let's just share with everybody who's listening and watching.
[52:25] Someone, let's say, who's listening to this episode, they have a hunter-jumper
[52:28] or they have a dressage horse, and they're going, "Noëlle, Martin,
[52:32] can I go work cows with my horse?"
[52:35] What would you an- how would you answer that?
[52:38] Martin: Why not?
[52:41] Why would that even be a question?
[52:43] Because they've been conditioned to think that there's all these
[52:46] barriers, all these boundaries.
[52:48] So to, to talk about the stockmanship.
[52:52] Noelle: Yes.
[52:53] Martin: Uh, my family for generations ran range horses, not mustangs.
[53:00] Range horses.
[53:01] They were branded.
[53:01] They were, they were looked after just like cattle.
[53:05] When I say looked after, they might have only gathered them once a year.
[53:08] Noelle: Right.
[53:09] Martin: But they were domestic livestock.
[53:12] Noelle: Okay.
[53:13] Martin: Before mustangs, and we won't get, we won't get into, you know- We won't
[53:17] Noelle: go down
[53:17] Martin: that rabbit hole … that part, but there is a
[53:19] difference is what I'm saying.
[53:21] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[53:21] Martin: They were range horses.
[53:23] They never brought them in.
[53:24] There was no place to bring them into.
[53:26] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[53:26] Martin: They were, they were on the open range, thousands of them.
[53:30] There wasn't a corral to work these horses in.
[53:34] We use the term rodear.
[53:36] Noelle: Yes.
[53:37] Martin: Which means you gather them, you surround them, and the rodeo is you
[53:43] do whatever sorting, branding, whatever activity needs to happen, uh, pull out the
[53:49] ones that you're gonna market or whatever.
[53:51] But going back to, uh, you know, this style of thinking, you had to
[54:00] have some of this to work, say, 100 or 200 or… My granddad showed me a
[54:07] picture of 1,000 horses in one rodear.
[54:09] Noelle: Wow.
[54:11] Martin: And not to get into the story of what they'd done
[54:13] with those thousand horses.
[54:13] That's another whole chapter in the book.
[54:16] But they, it didn't matter what size rodear it was, if they wasn't trained
[54:24] It didn't matter if you had a thousand riders, you couldn't control them
[54:28] Noelle: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
[54:29] Martin: And that's what I see today, not to get too far off on a
[54:32] rabbit trail here, but, uh, a lot of people can't work their cattle.
[54:36] They gotta take them to a corral to do the work
[54:38] Noelle: Mm
[54:39] Martin: Well, it might be 20 or 30 miles to the closest corral.
[54:44] You're not gonna go out there and grab however many cows and
[54:48] take them to the corral and brand them and take them back out here
[54:51] Noelle: It's a lot of work
[54:51] Martin: You train your cattle to stay in the rodear.
[54:55] And plenty of times, it, it's very, very common in this area to maybe work
[55:04] hundreds, maybe as many as 500 head of cattle with maybe two or three riders,
[55:10] and one or two of them might be in the rodear catching calves to brand or…
[55:15] My point is, it's minimal help to keep the cattle from leaving
[55:20] the rodear, 'cause the cattle are trained to stay in the rodear You're
[55:23] Noelle: the first person that I've ever heard say, talk about training their cows
[55:28] Martin: Well, if you're gonna get it done, and it comes, I mean,
[55:32] this is, this is old vaquero stuff
[55:34] Noelle: Yeah
[55:34] Martin: This isn't something I invented.
[55:36] It isn't something that my family invented.
[55:39] This is something that came with the Spanish to this area.
[55:43] The Texans learned it later when they got cattle, which was
[55:46] a couple hundred years later.
[55:47] And it's done in Spain.
[55:49] It's done in parts of Europe.
[55:50] There's a lot of Europe that they have corrals and, you know, things live in
[55:55] a corral, just like a lot of this area.
[55:57] But in this area here, in the Great Basin, and there's other parts of the country,
[56:02] but I'm talking about the Great Basin that I'm familiar with If you can't work
[56:07] your cattle in a rodeo, you're pretty limited to what you're gonna get done.
[56:10] Mm-hmm.
[56:11] Very limited.
[56:12] Noelle: Yeah.
[56:12] Martin: There's more fences now.
[56:13] There's more corrals now, but like in my granddad's age, there was
[56:18] barely corrals, you know, to get your horses broke in and things like that.
[56:22] They did not keep horses in corrals.
[56:25] They did not work horses, I'm talking about the herds for sorting and branding
[56:29] and stuff, in corrals necessarily.
[56:32] I mean, my dad tells me stories about roping a horse and he goes
[56:35] off a rim rock, you know, well, there goes your rope, you know?
[56:38] I mean, there's those kind of stories that I grew up with.
[56:40] But back to being able to train hundreds of horses to stay
[56:46] in a group with no fences.
[56:49] They might hold them against a rim rock or maybe have a
[56:52] little help of, of a boundary.
[56:54] Cattle are no different.
[56:55] You train your cattle to leave when you ask them to leave, to stay in there
[57:01] when you expect them to stay in there.
[57:03] Noelle: Yeah.
[57:03] Martin: You ex- You know, growing up we trailed 1,500 head of cattle
[57:07] 80 miles every spring, every fall.
[57:09] Noelle: Wow.
[57:10] Martin: And there'd only be like two of us for most of the way, and they might
[57:13] be strung out for as far as five miles.
[57:16] One person's watching the lead, make sure they're going the
[57:19] right direction, not go too fast.
[57:21] The other person's in the drag making sure they don't stop and
[57:24] eat and go too slow The cattle are trying to stay together, though
[57:29] Noelle: So this is a really great opportunity to talk now, to break down
[57:34] what it takes, what are the ingredients.
[57:38] And I'm excited to dive into this 'cause I experienced this working with your cows.
[57:43] What's required in order to keep a rodeer in place without any fencing?
[57:49] Whether it be horses or whether it be cattle.
[57:52] And I experienced, after we worked our cows, your cows, I felt so
[57:57] much more in tune with my horses.
[57:59] And when I was loading them, I felt so… Like, my, my gestures, whatever
[58:04] I was asking for, had to be so much subtler because I had been working on
[58:08] the balance point, the flight zone, being aware of my footfall, my horse's
[58:12] footfall in relation to the cow.
[58:15] It just, again, it's like these are really important skills.
[58:18] So let's break down for everybody who's listening what's required.
[58:22] What are the skills required to do this work?
[58:26] Martin: Well, this is where empathy comes in.
[58:29] Noelle: Yay, you said it first.
[58:33] Martin: I'm, I'm still working on what empathy actually means, but anyway.
[58:38] But it goes back to understanding what that horse is not thinking, but what
[58:46] he's going to think because you know what's gonna happen next before he does.
[58:54] Noelle: Empathy.
[58:56] Martin says he's still working out what that word means.
[59:01] In part two, he shows you what it looks like on the ground, reading cattle,
[59:06] millions of them, and moving one cow out of a herd by leaving her alone.
[59:13] That's next.
[59:16] If the access and insight of this podcast makes you want to go deeper and actually
[59:22] apply these ideas with your own horses, NF Plus is where I've brought together some
[59:27] of the best riders, trainers, horsemen, horsewomen, sports psychologists,
[59:34] and practitioners in the horse world.
[59:37] Inside the NF Plus app, you'll find more than 70 masterclass courses on the
[59:42] challenges so many of us face: spooky horses, finding a distance, developing
[59:49] a better canter, developing feel, navigating fear and anxiety, or becoming
[59:55] a more thoughtful rider and horse person.
[59:59] Our instructors include Tick Maynard, Will Coleman, Carl Cook, Peter Wyld, Dr.
[1:00:06] Jenny Susser, Anne Kozinski, and so many more I created NF Plus as
[1:00:14] a safe, thoughtful place to learn at your own pace with teachers and
[1:00:20] riders who have a wealth of knowledge.
[1:00:24] You can explore more at noellefloydplus.com or find the link
[1:00:29] to download the app in the show notes

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