# What this Dressage Rider Learned From a Cowboy - Kasey Perry-Glass

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 26 Aug 2026, 1 h 22 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/Kasey_Perry-Glass.mp3?dest-id=4715857

You get the thing you chased for five years. And the ride is the worst one you've ever put down. Kasey Perry-Glass reached the Olympic Games on the horse she bought to take her there — Doublé — and came home into a depression that blindsided her. This is the conversation under the medal photo. What it costs to want something that badly, and what she found on the far side of it. She married a cowboy. Dana Glass starts colts and takes in the horses other people gave up on — the rearers, the buckers, the bolters, carrying baggage nobody unpacked. Two worlds under one roof: her classical dressage, his groundwork. What one taught the other is most of this hour. We get into the perfectionism that dressage rewards and then punishes — a score out of 100 that stays out of reach, a sport where the best mark is a C or a D on a good day. Why she stopped posting to social media. The line Martin Black uses, let them cook, and why ending a ride a little early beats grinding it into the ground. Pain versus behavior, and the checklist she taught Dana: clear the ulcers, the hindgut, the teeth, before anyone calls it attitude. Then the mental game she learned the hard way. Finding her number with Annette Paterakis — the exact pitch of nerves and calm that lets her ride her best. The work with Dr. Jenny Susser. Blacking out in the saddle, ten minutes gone, grinding the same movement. Boundaries. Getting told she was "too nice" for this sport, and what she kept anyway. Behind the vertical, point of balance, throughness without a single draw rein — she explains the dressage the way she explained it to Dana, the sport he first met through her. This one is for anyone who has wanted something so badly it made them small, and found their way back to the size they actually are. Kasey Perry-Glass is a US Olympic dressage rider — team bronze at Rio 2016 (America's first Olympic dressage medal since 2004) and team silver at the 2018 World Equestrian Games — who competes as Kasey Perry. Her longtime partner was the Grand Prix gelding Doublé (Goerklintgaards Dublet), now retired; she currently campaigns Heartbeat W.P. She and her husband, cowboy and colt-starter Dana Glass, run Two Worlds Equestrian, joining Western horsemanship and Grand Prix dressage under one program. To Learn more about Kasey Perry-Glass: website | instagram | facebook In This Episode You'll Learn • What it costs to reach an Olympic Games and ride your worst test there, and the depression Kasey came home to • The perfectionism dressage rewards and then punishes, chasing a score out of 100 in a sport where a great mark is a C • Let them cook: why ending a ride a little early beats grinding a movement into the ground • The pain-versus-behavior checklist Kasey taught Dana — ulcers, hindgut, teeth, before anyone calls it attitude • Finding your number with sports psychologist Annette Paterakis — the exact pitch of nerves and calm that lets you ride your best • Blacking out in the saddle, ten minutes gone on the same movement, and the mental work that pulled her out • Behind the vertical made plain: the poll as the highest point, and why a horse's own point of balance can't be copied and pasted • Throughness without a single draw rein, and how groundwork gave an Olympic rider tools her dressage babies never had Chapters: 0:00 How Kasey met a cowboy 4:51 What Dana does: colt starting & unpacking a horse's trauma 8:41 Groundwork, the rope halter & being a beginner again 14:34 \[ad: Total Feeds\] 15:14 The perfectionism dressage rewards and punishes 19:51 Let them cook: ending on a good note 23:17 Pain vs. behavior: what we blame on the horse 29:05 Bringing two worlds together 30:36 Welfare, eliminations & the "blood" rule 33:44 \[ad: Noëlle's Substack\] 36:07 Judging transparency & educating the viewer 39:21 Behind the vertical, explained 41:44 Point of balance & throughness without draw reins 44:47 Training aids as tools; groundwork informs the saddle 49:34 The Olympics — and the…

## Transcript

[0:00] Kasey: All right, Casey, welcome to the Dear Horsewoman podcast.
[0:02] Thank you for having me.
[0:03] Noelle: Um, okay.
[0:05] I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because I have followed your journey like
[0:10] a lot of people in the horse world, and I really, really value your perspective
[0:15] because you have a rather unique life.
[0:20] Kasey: It feels quite boring, actually.
[0:22] Noelle: Okay.
[0:22] Well, it's not from the outside.
[0:23] Like, and now maybe we'll ma- I'll start, I'll start by
[0:26] saying your husband is a cowboy.
[0:28] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[0:29] Noelle: Something that not everyone listening to this episode might know.
[0:32] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[0:32] Noelle: How did you meet?
[0:34] Kasey: We met, um, I would say, like 18 years ago.
[0:39] Noelle: Oh, my
[0:39] Kasey: gosh.
[0:40] I was just graduating… Maybe it wasn't that long ago, but I was
[0:43] just graduating college, and he was working on a ranch in Colorado.
[0:48] And my parents decided to go and pay for a dude ranch experience- … where you,
[0:54] um… It's a horse drive where they go 60 miles, 30 one day, 30 the next day.
[0:59] But they have the full experience of watching the cowboys buck out the horses,
[1:04] and the bonfires, like the whole thing.
[1:06] They lived in a cabin that the water smelled like sulfur.
[1:10] Like, it was just… You had the option to go to a hotel, but
[1:13] it wasn't, it was frowned upon.
[1:15] But, um, so they, my parents did that one year, and then decided to
[1:19] take my sister and I. And Dana was one of the wranglers on the trip.
[1:25] I wasn't really… He was kind of the untouchable one.
[1:29] He was very busy.
[1:31] Uh, he had his cute little heeler dog with the bullwhip.
[1:34] He was just kind of the perfect package.
[1:36] Mm-hmm.
[1:36] But he became friends with my sister, and, um, after that trip,
[1:41] I think eight years went by.
[1:43] Noelle: Wow.
[1:43] Kasey: And he decided he was gonna move to Washington, and that's where I was
[1:47] living at the time, in Spokane, and him and my sister were still friends.
[1:52] And so she directed him to me and told me, "Hey, you have a friend there.
[1:56] Casey's there.
[1:57] You can chat with her, and she can show you around." And after two
[2:02] months of just, like, chatting as friends, um, we formed a relationship.
[2:06] Hmm.
[2:07] And more of a friendship, and then it became something more when he got there.
[2:11] It was kind of love at first sight.
[2:12] So it was fun because he, he was into horse stuff, but it was such
[2:16] a different avenue than I was in.
[2:19] Yeah.
[2:19] And I actually am like that at heart.
[2:22] Like, the western side, I, like, love that.
[2:24] Like, the whole just being… To get on the horse and just
[2:27] go is, like, fun, you know?
[2:30] And, um, when he saw what I was doing, he was a bit like, "What is this
[2:36] sport?" Like, he had no idea about it.
[2:38] And, um, and then he really got intrigued when he saw Dublé, the horse that I had at
[2:43] the time, and I told him about my Olympic dream, and that was at the very beginning.
[2:48] So, you know, to hear that is quite ambitious of someone, you know?
[2:53] And people always say, like, "I really wanna go to the Olympics," and I do that.
[2:56] And, um, a lot of times I get shot down, and I had a really
[3:01] good support team around me.
[3:03] And so he just joined in on the support team, and I was gone half the year, and
[3:08] so we spent a lot of time long distance.
[3:11] Um, and he would come to Florida every once in a while
[3:14] to visit, and, um, it was hard.
[3:17] The, it was not easy for us to be apart like that and, like,
[3:20] actually have a relationship.
[3:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[3:22] Kasey: But I think those were very, like, a very challenging time for us.
[3:26] And then, um, he ended up proposing, uh, in 2015, and we were like, "Do
[3:33] we try to push the wedding before the Olympic year or after the Olympic year?"
[3:39] And we pushed it to do it before.
[3:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[3:41] Kasey: And, um, that was, that, our wedding was beautiful.
[3:46] And, um, and then the Olympic year was the most… Everyone says the
[3:51] first year of marriage is really hard.
[3:53] It was really hard.
[3:54] Noelle: I can only imagine.
[3:55] Kasey: It was really hard.
[3:56] Um, the poor guy, he, he, he had to support me from afar.
[4:01] I was in Europe, and, um, going through a lot of emotional stuff, just,
[4:08] you know, my first Grand Prix year on Doublé, and I was already going
[4:14] to compete for a spot on the team.
[4:16] And, um, I wasn't an experienced Grand Prix horse, or Grand Prix rider.
[4:21] So just, just going through those new things, I completely shut him off
[4:29] and, like, kind of dug into my hole.
[4:31] Yeah.
[4:31] And, um, and so he, he s- we, our marriage suffered at that point.
[4:38] Um, but you know what, uh, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
[4:41] Absolutely.
[4:41] So we came out of it, and now he's like, I, I lean on him for
[4:45] my, for my, like, support when I do all this horse stuff, so.
[4:51] Noelle: Okay.
[4:51] There's, like, so much cool stuff I wanna unpack with you there.
[4:54] Yeah.
[4:55] So going back to, you said that you love just getting on a horse and go.
[4:59] Mm-hmm.
[5:00] And, like, going into the…
[5:02] Like, that, that part of what Dana does and that world that he comes from.
[5:06] And what would you call… For everyone who's listening who doesn't know
[5:09] what Dana does, what does Dana do?
[5:10] Kasey: He is more on the horsemanship side of things.
[5:13] Um, right now during season, I would say he really hones in on, like,
[5:18] breaking the young ones and working with, um, horses that people have
[5:23] some type of, I hate the word issue.
[5:25] Mm. Because I feel like, and I hate s- kind of saying problem horses, because I
[5:30] feel like it pins a lot onto the horse, when reality is, um, it is a majority
[5:37] of our stuff that we put onto them.
[5:40] Um, and I've learned that from him.
[5:43] So it's… I feel like… And he takes on a lot of these horses, rearers, buckers,
[5:49] bolters, um, anything that, um, people are having issues, like in performance-wise.
[5:54] Mm. Um, he'll take them in and try to unpack their trauma-
[6:00] Noelle: Mm
[6:00] … Kasey: I would say.
[6:01] Noelle: Amazing.
[6:02] Kasey: Yeah.
[6:03] And in off-season, he tries to do educational things.
[6:06] Like, he'll go and do… Last couple years, he's done the Buck
[6:09] Brannaman colt starting clinic.
[6:10] Noelle: Awesome.
[6:10] Kasey: Um, he'll try to travel around and do other clinics.
[6:13] But he, I would say during season's the most emotionally challenging time
[6:18] for him, because he has to take on so much emotion with these horses.
[6:22] Mm-hmm.
[6:22] And so he, um, it becomes a lot.
[6:26] I would… He just is drained.
[6:28] Um, so during off-season, I'm, I really want him to go be free.
[6:33] You know, do what, do what he used to do, and just, you know, work cattle
[6:38] and, you know, just kind of get away from the trauma around things.
[6:45] Noelle: When you say that he gets really drained during season 'cause
[6:47] he takes on a lot of emotion-
[6:48] Kasey: Yeah
[6:49] Noelle: how does he describe that to you?
[6:51] Kasey: Uh, he doesn't.
[6:53] I would say, um, I would say he doesn't even have to describe it.
[6:59] We've housed a couple of these horses that he's taken in.
[7:02] Um, we're not a boarding facility and w- no one really works
[7:05] out of our barn but myself.
[7:08] And, um, there's an off time where we'll have the horses
[7:12] that he's working with come in.
[7:14] And to see him work with these horses, I can, I, I can feel it, and I can feel,
[7:20] like, the confusion, the frustration.
[7:24] I can, I can feel all that kind of stuff.
[7:26] And I can only imagine with the knowledge that Dana knows and, like, how he works
[7:32] with them, how much… Y- you're talking, like, 10 horses a day of, of that type
[7:38] of behavior and, like, that type of communication he has to have with them.
[7:43] I try to do groundwork with my horse, and I'm like this is, this is exhausting
[7:49] 'cause you have to be so focused, and you have to… And that, and he's a good boy.
[7:52] You know, like, he's really trying, and, like, he's a, he's a baby, so he
[7:56] doesn't have a whole lot of that baggage.
[7:59] But if you work with a horse that has been in and out of programs for so
[8:02] long, and, you know, is already forming a rearing issue, or a bolting issue,
[8:08] or, like, things like that that haven't been, I would say, emotionally unpacked,
[8:13] then, um, that can be, that can be really draining on anyone, no matter
[8:18] if you shut it off or not, I feel like.
[8:20] And the good thing about Dana is that he has a lot of empathy for these horses.
[8:23] Like, he's like, he really takes on their, like, I wanna help them.
[8:29] He's in it to help the horse.
[8:30] Mm-hmm.
[8:31] And, um, you know, he has his own s- childhood stuff that he's, he's gone
[8:36] through, and so I think that that's what formed his path to the horsemanship stuff.
[8:41] Mm. And, um, so just knowing that and just seeing how he ends his day, I can
[8:47] just see it's like, "Okay, I need to let o- let down a little bit." Yeah.
[8:52] Did Dana introduce groundwork to you?
[8:55] Yes.
[8:56] Noelle: Yeah?
[8:57] Kasey: He did.
[8:57] Um, I actually never used a rope halter ever until I got
[9:03] Dublin, and he was really hot.
[9:06] Like, on the ground, he's, he's drug me before.
[9:10] He's- He's
[9:11] Noelle: dragged you.
[9:11] Kasey: Y- yeah.
[9:12] He, he took off and just- Oh … like, I was gone with him.
[9:16] And, um, he's, uh, rear… He, he would rear, he would do, like, all these,
[9:22] like, things on the ground, and in our world, we would put a chain on him.
[9:27] Yep.
[9:27] He would get hotter with a chain.
[9:30] And then I met Dana, and he's like, "Put a rope halter on him."
[9:34] And so I started doing that, and he was actually, like, way more respectful on
[9:39] the ground, and I never looked back.
[9:42] All the horses we have are in rope halters.
[9:44] Um, so that was, like, the starting point of it.
[9:48] And then, um, and then we, I… We have our two babies that we
[9:55] started together the first time.
[9:57] Wow.
[9:58] And so I wanted to…
[10:00] He wanted me to be the first on my baby, and that was terrifying.
[10:04] I don't do that.
[10:05] I'm not a baby per- I just… I'm, I'm a chicken.
[10:09] And so we're working the groundwork, and it's such a different world.
[10:13] It's like learning how to post a trot again, you know, like, when
[10:17] you're first starting, and, like, it's, it can be so basic, but yet
[10:21] it's so detailed and so beneficial.
[10:24] And so we started working with that, and I'm still, I still have him come
[10:27] in, and I'm like, "I'm stuck here.
[10:30] His shoulder's not, like, coming through," or, you know, he's… You know, the other
[10:34] day my horse was anticipating me, you know, moving him through, and, like, all
[10:38] these things that I can't catch, but he's like, "That's your issue right there.
[10:44] Like, you need to work on that little piece." And I'm like, "But it's… I
[10:48] didn't even notice it at all." So I'm slowly… I'm trying not to put so much
[10:53] pressure on myself, and that's another thing that he's taught me is you will
[10:58] make a thousand mistakes in this.
[11:00] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[11:00] Kasey: And you just have to keep trying and keep doing it and not put
[11:05] so much pressure on yourself, and eventually you'll start to get into
[11:09] the rhythm of what it should be.
[11:11] And, um, so I think that that- You know, my groundwork's not the best, but I try
[11:17] Noelle: Groundwork is an art.
[11:20] Kasey: Yeah
[11:20] Noelle: Just like everything, you know, just so, like, so much of
[11:23] what we do- Yeah … with horses.
[11:24] And it's like it can be… I totally relate to how frustrating it could
[11:28] be- Yeah … 'cause you feel like you're like a baby learning- Yeah
[11:30] how to walk again.
[11:31] Yeah.
[11:31] And it's very humbling.
[11:33] It is.
[11:34] But it's also very rewarding.
[11:36] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[11:37] Noelle: So what does… What was the changes that you saw in Dub-
[11:41] I'm gonna- Dub- I wanna call him- Dub- I wanna call him Doublé.
[11:43] Everyone
[11:44] Kasey: calls him- But then
[11:44] Noelle: I've heard Doublet.
[11:45] Kasey: Yeah.
[11:45] The, the announcers c- the announcers call him Doublet.
[11:48] Yeah.
[11:48] I call him Doublé.
[11:49] Okay.
[11:49] Always called him Doublé.
[11:51] Noelle: Great.
[11:51] Kasey: It sounds better.
[11:52] It doesn't sound-
[11:52] Noelle: I saw it and I was like, "The horse's name is Doublé." Yeah.
[11:55] And I watched a cou- I watched a whole bunch of your tests- Yeah … and I was
[11:57] like, "Why are they calling him Doublet?"
[11:59] Kasey: I know.
[11:59] I don't understand it.
[12:00] Noelle: Okay.
[12:00] Doublé.
[12:01] What was the… What were the changes that you saw in him once
[12:06] you started integrating some of Dana's approach to horsemanship?
[12:11] Kasey: It was actually quite interesting because I never wanted Dana to… I never
[12:15] wanted to do any of it with, with Doublé.
[12:17] Noelle: Mm.
[12:17] Kasey: I… The only thing that I ever did with Doublé was the rope halter.
[12:20] Noelle: Yeah.
[12:21] Kasey: Because we're afr- I was afraid he was gonna get hurt.
[12:23] Noelle: Right
[12:23] Kasey: You know?
[12:24] It's like, it's just a whole new… He, Doublé wasn't used to, you
[12:28] know, taking his hind end and, like, you know, getting his hind leg-
[12:31] Noelle: Disengagement of the hind end, yeah.
[12:32] Yeah.
[12:32] Kasey: Yeah.
[12:32] And, like, getting all those things.
[12:35] You know, I was too afraid of him getting hurt.
[12:37] Noelle: That's
[12:38] Kasey: very fair.
[12:38] And so I, I did do a lot of free lunging with him.
[12:43] Um, and, um, I don't know if it was a lot of the correct stuff, but I love
[12:49] the fact that my horses can be offline- Mm-hmm … and just be on their own a
[12:53] bit- Mm-hmm … and stretch, you know?
[12:55] Mm-hmm.
[12:55] And I feel like that's like, that's when I know that they're comfortable in their
[12:59] bodies and their minds, is when I can let them go and they're just jogging
[13:04] around in a free stretch and just, like, quiet, and he was really good at that.
[13:10] And so I started incorporating that with all my horses.
[13:13] I had a horse that anytime that you would put her on a lunge line, the
[13:17] moment you stepped back to, like, ta- tell her to go, she would take off
[13:22] and just spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.
[13:23] Oh, no.
[13:23] And I'm like, "Oh, God." Eventually, by the couple years, she was free
[13:28] lunging, and she just was quiet.
[13:30] And I'm like, "Those are the connections I love." Um, and- The invisible line.
[13:35] Yeah.
[13:35] And I can walk back, and they turn, and they face me, and then we can
[13:38] walk around the round pen and be… I, I joke a lot that they're actually
[13:43] working me because I try to play with him and, like, run around, and
[13:46] they're like, "What are you doing?"
[13:47] And I'm like But, um- Dublé never really, I think, benefited.
[13:54] He never got into the whole groundwork, that kind of stuff.
[13:58] I think in- inherently I was always more of a sympathetic rider in, in the sense
[14:05] of I want it to be classical, and I want to be able to have very quiet aids and a,
[14:11] a really good relationship with my horse.
[14:13] I've always been that way.
[14:15] And do I make mistakes?
[14:17] Yeah, we talked about that.
[14:18] I think everyone makes mistakes all the time, no matter how quiet you
[14:21] are, and… 'Cause that can also be a mistake- Mm-hmm … I think too.
[14:26] You know, being too passive and too, you know, like, "I don't wanna touch
[14:30] him 'cause I don't wanna hurt him," and, like, these type of things, I
[14:32] think that that can also be a mistake 'cause you're not helping your horse.
[14:36] So there's a line.
[14:37] Um, and so I think that I was already in the midst of w- knowing
[14:46] the style that I wanted to have for my own riding, and it veers more
[14:51] to Dana's expertise, I would say.
[14:53] So, um, now that we have Heart and, uh, we have two babies, and
[15:00] those type of things, we can really ingrain that into our program.
[15:04] Um- That's so cool … still afraid that they're gonna get hurt.
[15:06] I think it's just they can get hurt doing what we do, you know?
[15:09] Yeah.
[15:09] So it's, it's just a, it's a matter of it's just new.
[15:13] Yes.
[15:14] Noelle: And there is an element of that, so I wanna, like, dive a little
[15:17] bit into the culture of dressage.
[15:19] Mm-hmm.
[15:20] Because from observing a little bit on the outside, having familiarized myself with
[15:28] the world over the, over the years, there is much more of that perfectionist…
[15:35] You know, like, I always wonder whether certain tribes within the horse world draw
[15:38] certain types- Mm … of personality type.
[15:40] Yeah.
[15:41] And there's this discipline and this perfectionism that exists within
[15:46] the culture of dressage, which can be so beautiful 'cause there can be
[15:50] such… I mean, when, when, when, when you see dressage done well-
[15:55] Kasey: Mm-hmm
[15:55] Noelle: I think it's one of the most remarkable things-
[15:57] Kasey: Yes
[15:58] … Noelle: to witness-
[15:58] Kasey: Yeah
[15:59] … Noelle: in person.
[15:59] Kasey: Yeah.
[16:01] Noelle: And I wonder, how does that feel for you?
[16:05] Like, even the concept of dressage scoring.
[16:07] Mm. Like, you're trying to achieve 100… There's a, the score of 100%.
[16:12] Mm. And are you ever gonna get 100%?
[16:14] Kasey: Yeah.
[16:15] Noelle: The argument would be no.
[16:16] Kasey: Yeah.
[16:16] Noelle: Um, b- especially because it's subjective.
[16:18] Kasey: We're all C. We're a C or D.
[16:21] Noelle: Right.
[16:21] C or D. So that-
[16:23] Kasey: Sometimes F.
[16:24] Noelle: Yeah.
[16:24] Yeah.
[16:24] Like, so thinking about that mindset for an individual, and then how that plays
[16:29] out in the relationship and with the sort of the environment for your horse.
[16:34] Can you explain a little bit of, like, that, that pursuit?
[16:36] Do you feel like… And now that you have Dana in your life to, like,
[16:39] kind of give you nice perspective- Mm
[16:42] on where your world sits amongst all the worlds.
[16:47] Kasey: Yeah.
[16:47] Noelle: How does perfectionism play in all this?
[16:50] Kasey: Um, I think it's a… It is experience to where… And
[16:57] it's so cliche to say it's a journey with your horse, right?
[17:00] It's so… It's like, that's, like, what we say.
[17:03] But I think that the moments that we start getting over greedy or zealous, I think
[17:09] that that's when the perfection comes in.
[17:14] And then we all have those rides where we get off and we go, "Oh." Like, you
[17:20] just have that, like, gut feeling that it was unfair, you know, to your horse.
[17:23] Yeah.
[17:23] And, like, you're just like, "Oh, I d- wish I never… You know, didn't push
[17:28] that so much." Mm. Or, like… And I think that- I think it's important
[17:33] to hone in on that feeling, and then the next rides go, "Can I work this a
[17:38] different way, and can I, you know, not take on that perfectionism so much?"
[17:44] Because I think anything in life nowadays, everything is supposed to look perfect.
[17:50] Not just our sport, right?
[17:52] It's, like, everything in our life, I feel like, is the clean countertops
[17:55] and, like- Yep … the clean everything.
[17:57] It's supposed to look perfection.
[17:59] Yep.
[17:59] But training and, um, life is messy.
[18:04] And so I think that the only time that works is when you are allowed
[18:09] to experience failure and know that that's okay, and it's gonna feel bad.
[18:17] Mm-hmm.
[18:17] And it's gonna feel like, ah, I can't do that.
[18:20] But if you keep pushing through and keep gaining your knowledge of something,
[18:24] you're gonna break through it.
[18:26] It might just take some time.
[18:28] But, and that's when you reach out to your, your colleagues and your,
[18:31] you know, your friends and say, "Hey, I'm struggling with this.
[18:34] You know, can you, can you give me a different exercise to do?
[18:37] Can you…" You know, start to search a little bit of how you
[18:41] can make it clear to your horse.
[18:43] And perfectionism is not real, and that's why I don't do social media a lot.
[18:51] Because I- Good
[18:52] Noelle: for you
[18:52] … Kasey: because I feel like Only things are posted because when they're perfect.
[18:58] Noelle: Yeah, it's the high-
[18:58] Kasey: I'm guilty of it too.
[19:00] Yeah.
[19:00] Being like, "Wow, look at this line of ones," and, like, you
[19:03] know, all that kind of stuff.
[19:04] But it's, like, maybe two, two slides before that I was
[19:08] not getting 15 ones, you know?
[19:11] And, um, I do see a lot of people starting to post imperfections, which I love, but,
[19:17] but you get slammed for it, you know?
[19:19] Mm. I've had… I'm a perfectionist.
[19:21] I actually have, I feel like, some OCDs, and, like, it- Guilty.
[19:25] Yeah.
[19:25] It's like, I- but I also have to know that I'm, I am working with an animal.
[19:31] This horse cannot control… He probably could tell me if his body's
[19:37] tired, but most of the time they don't.
[19:40] Mm. And so you have to be able to say, "That line was good enough for
[19:45] today," and then come back at it tomorrow, or, you know, and, like,
[19:49] and not expect it all the time.
[19:51] And Dana really believes that horses go in, in, like, into their turnouts,
[19:57] into their stalls, and, like, really soak in what was happening that day.
[20:01] And, like, if you end on, like, a good solid, "Okay, that was good," you know?
[20:06] They, they really start to process that, and half the time they come back out the
[20:09] next day and they're better, you know?
[20:12] And so I think that we, like, get in this tunnel vision of, "I have to get it
[20:17] right now," and the horses don't know.
[20:20] Like, they're just trying their best.
[20:22] So I think that we have to step away sometimes from, end on a good note, and
[20:29] come back and try it again tomorrow, and don't kill your horses for it you know?
[20:33] Noelle: Uh, Martin Black calls it c- let, let them cook on that one.
[20:36] Kasey: Yeah.
[20:37] Noelle: And I actually have learned more about horse
[20:40] psychology from cowboys that have-
[20:41] Kasey: Yeah
[20:42] … Noelle: never ridden, read a horse behavior or like they, they're n-
[20:46] they're not reading the science.
[20:48] Yeah.
[20:48] They're actually just practicing the, like the art of it.
[20:53] And it's like now when you have people like Dr. Steven Peters, who are bringing
[20:57] the neuroscience into it, and that's why, like Evidence-Based Horsemanship, that
[21:00] book, like has blown so many people's minds because it was something that
[21:03] cowboys have been doing for a long time-
[21:05] Kasey: Yeah
[21:05] … Noelle: backed by the neuroscience of how horses think and learn.
[21:08] Kasey: Yeah.
[21:09] Noelle: Now I hear, I, I'm hearing it more and more is like better to
[21:12] quit too soon than to quit too late.
[21:13] Yeah.
[21:14] Kasey: 1,000%.
[21:15] Noelle: Don't overcook the learning.
[21:17] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[21:17] Noelle: Are you trying to teach something, or are you trying to, like get
[21:21] something as good as it possibly can be?
[21:23] Yeah.
[21:24] Do you know that as a rider- Yeah … going into that ride?
[21:26] Kasey: Yeah.
[21:27] Do you find it to be the norm of society of, like sports when it says repetition
[21:32] is- Ooh … like, like key, you know?
[21:36] And so our bodies can handle it because we know when our body's, like about to break.
[21:41] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[21:41] Kasey: But I don't know if horses learn that way.
[21:44] Like, they can.
[21:45] I think that is important to like, you know, but there's also a line on the
[21:49] other side of that, of like now you're doing it, the wrong thing too much.
[21:54] Noelle: It makes me think of, um, so when, when you watch a Martin Black
[21:58] colt starting clinic- Mm … he'll talk very… And it was hard for
[22:01] me to hear this the first time.
[22:02] He said, "You're gonna kind of sacrifice this horse, and you're
[22:05] not gonna do it perfectly this time because you're gonna… I
[22:07] have to teach you how to do it."
[22:09] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[22:09] " Noelle: But then you're gonna be better for the 100 other colts that you start."
[22:12] Kasey: Sure, yeah.
[22:13] Noelle: I think we mistake repetition with the one horse.
[22:19] Kasey: Mm.
[22:19] Noelle: I think the repetition that's required for us to be great
[22:22] is over many years- Yeah … many weeks, many days, many horses.
[22:26] Kasey: Yeah.
[22:27] Noelle: And you also have to be really honest about are
[22:29] Kasey: you-
[22:29] Noelle: One
[22:29] Kasey: horse and one ride.
[22:30] Noelle: Yeah, like are you sacrificing that horse's experience-
[22:33] Yeah … for you to learn that better?
[22:34] Kasey: Yeah.
[22:35] Noelle: That was a hard lesson I feel like I had to learn, and the more
[22:39] and more I get into horsemanship and the more I learn from people that
[22:43] have, um, prioritized even starting horses, but then also working with
[22:48] horses like Dana works with- Mm
[22:49] that horses that are fundamentally frustrated and that are acting out
[22:53] behaviorally and saying like, "Hey, this is not okay. I don't understand
[22:56] this, and I'm confused, and I need someone to explain this to me better"-
[22:59] Kasey: Yeah
[22:59] … Noelle: the more I realize, like how much do we, how, how much are we
[23:04] prioritizing the rider's learning- Mm
[23:06] versus the horse's learning- Yeah … because they're two very different things.
[23:08] Yeah, mm-hmm.
[23:09] That's, I can, I think that's kind of how I see it now.
[23:13] I definitely se- saw it differently when I was a competitive-
[23:15] Kasey: Yeah
[23:16] … Noelle: show jumping rider.
[23:17] Kasey: Yeah.
[23:18] Yeah.
[23:18] It's a… And I think that there's also a component of pain in it, too, right?
[23:24] So it's like I think that Dana's always been really good about- me being like,
[23:31] "Let me check off some things when I'm dealing with a horse." Like, if it's, you
[23:36] know, I've had a, I've had a head flipper or, like, a one that would, like, flip
[23:39] and, like, like she would pull me into one direction and, like, just random stuff.
[23:45] But I was very I was also very, it was very important to me to be able to
[23:50] like, let me get things checked off my list to make sure she's not in pain.
[23:54] Noelle: Ooh, yeah.
[23:55] Kasey: And then, you know, then we'll go the route of behavioral, you know?
[24:00] Mm-hmm.
[24:00] 'Cause I think it's like there could be a lot of factors in
[24:03] that, and they can't tell you.
[24:05] Like, they can in like these behavioral stuff, but-
[24:08] Noelle: Dude, that is a-
[24:10] Kasey: Yeah
[24:10] … Noelle: topic.
[24:11] Kasey: Yeah.
[24:12] Noelle: Pain-
[24:12] Kasey: Yeah
[24:13] … Noelle: versus behavior.
[24:15] Kasey: Yeah.
[24:15] Noelle: I mean, I have gone through that with my own mare, that she was a mare
[24:19] that had been re-homed a ton of times.
[24:22] She is an Appaloosa mare.
[24:23] She was w- feral for half her life.
[24:26] And, you know, everyone was like, "Oh, this mare is behaviorally-" Yeah.
[24:29] "This is all behavior."
[24:30] Kasey: Yeah.
[24:31] Noelle: Okay.
[24:31] Fast-track, I've had her for a year, almost two years.
[24:34] I can tell you, and I've been so grateful and lucky that I've had access to amazing
[24:38] health experts in the horse world.
[24:40] They have helped me break down-
[24:42] Kasey: Yeah
[24:43] … Noelle: how much of that was actually pain- Yeah … and discomfort.
[24:45] She had bone spurs in C2.
[24:47] Yeah.
[24:47] C1, C2, and now 4, L5.
[24:49] Kasey: Yeah.
[24:50] Noelle: She had, um, a flipped ovary.
[24:53] Kasey: Jeez.
[24:53] Noelle: 270 degrees.
[24:54] Her right ovary was flipped 270 degrees.
[24:56] I didn't know that was
[24:56] Kasey: even possible.
[24:57] Noelle: Me neither.
[24:58] Me neither.
[25:00] Kasey: Wow.
[25:00] Noelle: So here I, here we are, this … And, and again-
[25:03] Kasey: What does that do?
[25:03] Cut off the hormones or something?
[25:05] Is
[25:05] Noelle: that- So it makes all the muscles, so it affects all the muscles- Oh, okay
[25:08] and all the fascia around her whole repro- all around the
[25:11] ovary- Yeah … on the right side.
[25:12] Kasey: Yeah.
[25:12] And- So it's like this.
[25:13] Noelle: Yeah.
[25:14] Oh, yeah.
[25:14] And ironically, her right side was her tied side.
[25:16] Kasey: Yeah.
[25:17] Noelle: Right?
[25:17] But here we are thinking also her teeth.
[25:20] Kasey: Yeah.
[25:20] Noelle: Oh my God, I just had Dr. Cindy Allen come and do her
[25:24] teeth, and I learned so much- Yeah
[25:25] about how bad we do their teeth.
[25:27] Mm-hmm.
[25:27] And then how that affects-
[25:29] Kasey: Mine comes from Europe.
[25:30] 'Cause she's so … Like, I'm like, it's v- … I have my,
[25:33] my team that I, like, trust.
[25:35] Yeah, yeah.
[25:36] Noelle: And that's the thing is like that's where I find it's actually
[25:39] overwhelming, is the more I learn, and this is like we talked about
[25:42] this before we pressed record.
[25:44] Yeah.
[25:44] You almost … Like, the more you learn, the more you learn what you don't know,
[25:47] or you- Yeah … you know there's like, you don't know what you don't know.
[25:51] Yeah.
[25:51] And it's the world of, of, of horses and horsemanship is like, it's like the ocean.
[25:57] Mm. And so I feel like the more educated I get, one, the less op-
[26:02] the less opinionated I get, the more forgiving I get of everybody else
[26:06] because I think half of the poor decisions and the poor things we see
[26:10] in the world is from miseducation- Yeah
[26:12] or poor education- Yeah … or uneducated- Yeah … you know, decision-making.
[26:16] And so it's, are you gonna blame someone for their ignorance?
[26:20] Mm. Especially if it's not willingly held.
[26:23] Yeah.
[26:23] Like, that I think is a huge dichotomy that I sit with.
[26:28] Yeah.
[26:29] You know?
[26:30] Um, but I'm so glad you brought up pain because- And I'm so glad that-
[26:35] Kasey: And that's something I'm teaching Dana too.
[26:37] So it's, it's a two-way street that's happening because I do think that
[26:42] a lot of these, a lot of people don't take into consideration pain.
[26:46] And I don't n- I don't necessarily think that Dana, that's his first look, right?
[26:51] Mm-hmm.
[26:51] I think that he's more of like If they do it correctly, if we do this
[26:56] correctly, they won't be in pain type thing, and I'm like, "But they're,
[27:00] they're coming in with probably some, some damage happening in their body."
[27:05] Yeah.
[27:05] You know?
[27:06] So, so I'm trying to instill that into him, too, of like, can we make
[27:11] sure that people are getting cleared by their vets of th- they've gotten
[27:16] ulcers looked at, they've gotten, you know, all, all the things.
[27:20] Noelle: Bone chips.
[27:21] Bone chips.
[27:22] Internal-
[27:22] Kasey: Yeah
[27:23] … Noelle: I mean, Dr. Connie Fancy came on this podcast, talked about
[27:26] all the internal restrictions- Yeah
[27:27] that take place within horses.
[27:29] Yeah.
[27:29] Kasey: My horse's body right now is, like, the best it's ever… He's, he's
[27:33] an, he's a very tight, tense horse.
[27:36] Is he?
[27:36] Yeah.
[27:36] Noelle: Mm.
[27:36] Kasey: He's very, very tight and tense, and chiropractor doesn't work on him.
[27:40] Like, they, I tried, but they're like, "His muscles are too tight." Like,
[27:44] they, he, he doesn't hold anything.
[27:46] You know, I've worked on that a lot, and, um, the, the one thing that
[27:50] he struggles with is his stomach.
[27:53] Noelle: Mm.
[27:53] Kasey: And not necessarily ulcers.
[27:56] It's more like hindgut stuff.
[27:57] Yep.
[27:57] But when that is, when I have that, like, really good on some medications
[28:02] or supplements that help, that help it, he's so happy to work.
[28:07] Noelle: Mm.
[28:08] Kasey: But he is, like, very loud if his stomach is not right, and
[28:12] I've learned to hone in on…
[28:14] People think I'm crazy when they're new and they come into my barn, and I'm
[28:17] like, "Can we just, can you just come at him slowly? Like, can you, like…"
[28:22] You know, he's very nervous about people around him that are new poking
[28:26] on him and, and, um, but those are the stuff he came into my program with.
[28:31] Like, that wasn't, like- Yeah
[28:33] um, so I think that it's, pain can be a long-lasting issue- Yeah … to where
[28:39] they have, they don't wanna do something for so long because something is painful.
[28:44] Yes.
[28:44] And then it becomes a bigger problem.
[28:46] Noelle: Then, and I do think that horses actually also have
[28:48] psychosomatic process as well.
[28:50] Mm-hmm.
[28:50] So I think that when they've been in pain for so long, and then
[28:53] they, the pain is removed- Mm-hmm
[28:55] this, the tension and the, um, anticipation still exists.
[28:58] A
[28:58] Kasey: thousand percent.
[28:59] Noelle: Right?
[28:59] So it's like we have to get good enough to read to go, "Is this behavioral-
[29:03] Yep … or is this physiological?"
[29:05] Kasey: Yep.
[29:05] Noelle: And so cool to hear that you're bringing that.
[29:09] Yeah.
[29:09] Because I do believe that a lot of the Olympic disciplines and a
[29:12] lot of the performance, I would call high performance, and we
[29:14] call it, like, English, Western, Olympic, non-Olympic- Sure
[29:18] you know.
[29:18] Kasey: Yeah.
[29:18] Noelle: Lifestyle, sport, whatever you wanna… You know, there's
[29:21] so many different ways to look at it, but, like, the high per-
[29:23] Kasey: Lifestyle sport sounds really good.
[29:24] Noelle: Yeah, right?
[29:26] Because I, I, yeah, like, it's so cool to see, and I agree, that I
[29:30] think our, the high performance side can bring a lot of, we- Are so
[29:36] focused on the horse's bodies- Mm
[29:38] and the f- and, you know, like, how that horse is feeling in their body.
[29:42] Yeah.
[29:42] Are they capable of doing, are they physically capable of doing
[29:47] what we're asking them to do?
[29:48] Yeah.
[29:48] And sometimes, and that's where the Western side comes in or the,
[29:51] you know, the natural horsemanship side, which happens to be just a
[29:54] little bit more on the Western- Yeah
[29:55] on the Western side of things, the spectrum.
[29:57] There we're a little bit sometimes over, like, we kind of
[30:00] skip over the do they want to?
[30:02] Kasey: Yeah.
[30:02] Noelle: Do they understand-
[30:04] Kasey: Yeah
[30:04] … Noelle: what we're asking?
[30:05] Kasey: Yeah.
[30:05] And then over here they
[30:05] Noelle: go, "Do they understand? Do they want to?" Yeah.
[30:05] C-
[30:09] and then w- and they maybe skip over the can they?
[30:12] Kasey: Yeah.
[30:13] Noelle: Can they physically do what you're asking them to do?
[30:15] Kasey: Yeah.
[30:15] Mm-hmm.
[30:16] Noelle: So that's so cool that you and Dana are literally
[30:19] bringing… That's like, that to me is, like, modern horsemanship.
[30:22] Kasey: Yeah.
[30:23] Noelle: Yeah.
[30:24] Bringing the two worlds together.
[30:25] Kasey: Still working on him, but it's…
[30:27] Noelle: Dana, if you're listening to this podcast, work harder.
[30:31] We're calling
[30:31] Kasey: you out, bro.
[30:32] Noelle: It… Yeah.
[30:33] It's, it's, uh-
[30:36] Kasey: It's, it's a challenge.
[30:37] It's, um, I've seen, I've seen top riders not care enough
[30:41] about a horse's body, you know?
[30:43] Yeah.
[30:44] Like, I've seen, I've seen that.
[30:45] And, um, and even, even our governing bodies are taking away
[30:52] things that, for at horse shows- Mm
[30:55] that are, they're not really allowing us to give them, like B vitamins.
[31:00] Yeah.
[31:01] And it's like, you know, it, it's hard.
[31:04] Noelle: It feels like a challenging… I, I mean, when I watch what's all
[31:08] the changes that are taking place in eventing, in show jumping, um, in
[31:13] dressage, there seems to be a lot of reactive policy regulation changing.
[31:20] Mm-hmm.
[31:20] Systemic changing.
[31:20] Yeah.
[31:21] Which I think can be, when I think about even just if you were to do
[31:25] all that systemic change on a horse that you had- Mm … in training,
[31:30] how would that feel for them?
[31:31] Mm. And I can feel, I don't know about if you feel this way, but the horse
[31:34] world feels like a little, the way that a horse would feel if you just changed-
[31:38] Kasey: Yeah
[31:38] Noelle: everything about their training program.
[31:40] Kasey: Yeah.
[31:41] Noelle: And they're kind of like, "Okay, what's gonna happen next?" Yeah.
[31:44] And that's what kind of, I don't know if you feel this in dressage right now-
[31:46] Yeah … it kind of feels like that- Yeah … right now, that everyone's like,
[31:49] "Okay, what's gonna happen next?" Yeah.
[31:50] "What's gonna change next?"
[31:51] Kasey: Yeah.
[31:52] I just started noticing a lot more of eliminations happening in the tests for,
[31:59] I mean, for rightful reasons, and also for, like, really, they just eliminate…
[32:03] Like, they, it's like a welfare thing- Mm … where I'm, again, I'm so in the middle.
[32:08] I'm so, like, I can, I can understand and, and really love the fact that
[32:15] we're sticking up for welfare.
[32:16] Yeah.
[32:17] But I'm also on the fence of, like, that was not necessarily
[32:21] needed to be eliminated for.
[32:23] Mm. You know?
[32:24] It was, it was very, the horse didn't pee off for a couple steps,
[32:29] and like- Mm … or like, have a big pass- Mm … like, they, and then
[32:32] they call it something of, like, not the horse wasn't fit for Grand Prix.
[32:37] Got it.
[32:38] But it didn't look like that.
[32:40] It just was not ener- there was no energy to it.
[32:43] Noelle: Mm.
[32:43] Kasey: But was performing everything, like, maybe not the piaffe passage,
[32:46] but, like, everything else was fine.
[32:49] So it, it's, I think that it is reactive, reactatory.
[32:54] Yeah.
[32:55] I think that's it.
[32:56] Noelle: Reactionary.
[32:56] Kasey: Re- reactionary.
[32:57] I think it, it, um- And hopefully there's a middle ground that
[33:01] can be, that can be happened.
[33:03] But, you know, no one knew that they, they were starting to eliminate
[33:07] people for, mm, you know, not just, no, it's not just blood anymore.
[33:12] It's now, like, if they feel like your horse is not fit or if they're,
[33:19] um, abusive riding or things like that, which again, is really good.
[33:24] Noelle: Yeah.
[33:25] Kasey: But there has to be communication with the riders.
[33:27] There has to be more of a foundation of this is happening- And
[33:31] Noelle: an education … if, yeah, for sure.
[33:32] And an education.
[33:33] What-
[33:33] Kasey: Yeah
[33:33] … Noelle: how are we… I, again, like, even some of the guests we've
[33:38] had in the studio were talking about how they're going to social media-
[33:41] Kasey: Mm-hmm
[33:42] … Noelle: to understand what's happening.
[33:44] Kasey: Yeah.
[33:44] Noelle: And that's dangerous- Yeah
[33:45] because that's an unregulated platform.
[33:47] Yep.
[33:47] So, you know, when we feel, when there's confusion, I think confusion
[33:52] often leads to frustration.
[33:53] Yeah.
[33:54] And I think if riders don't know what to expect and how they're going to
[33:58] be measured and how they're going to be… You know, I would agree with you.
[34:02] Everything that is taking place in the, in, on behalf of horse welfare,
[34:06] every rider that I've talked to in the studio and every rider that I've talked
[34:09] to on the road, no one is disputing that the direction we're taking,
[34:13] which is drawing more of a, of a, of a microscope on horse welfare- Yeah
[34:18] is beneficial.
[34:20] I think where I'm hearing a lot of maybe frustration is the lack of communication-
[34:24] Yeah … and the lack of transparency- Yeah … about the processes.
[34:28] Mm-hmm.
[34:28] Which, you know, again, I think if, if, if our governing bodies
[34:32] are going to lead by example, then let's, let's have open communication.
[34:36] Yeah.
[34:36] Let's talk, because I'm seeing a lot of frustration.
[34:39] Kasey: Yeah.
[34:39] Noelle: And if, you know, even in, in the way that we communicate, like the
[34:43] word blood is a very triggering word.
[34:46] Mm-hmm.
[34:46] If you see the word blood in headline-
[34:49] Kasey: Yeah
[34:50] … Noelle: right, people are gonna… Like, there's so many
[34:52] things that- people think of.
[34:54] Kasey: Yeah.
[34:54] Noelle: They think of, like, gushing blood.
[34:56] They think of, like, a huge spur mark.
[34:57] Kasey: Yeah.
[34:58] Noelle: This might be a nick.
[34:59] I've heard of horses actually nicking themselves in the arena-
[35:02] Kasey: Yeah
[35:02] … Noelle: and then they get eliminated for that.
[35:04] Kasey: Yeah.
[35:04] Or scratches, like they have, they have, like, a fungus, and it breaks open during
[35:09] mid-test and, you know, like right in the area where it bends, and there's, you
[35:16] know, blood, which again, it's a rule.
[35:18] So- Yeah … we all, we all know it's a rule.
[35:21] Noelle: Yeah.
[35:21] Kasey: It is what it is, and I think it's great, but again, I, I feel like the,
[35:25] the communication is not there- Mm … at all, and I think that it needs to be
[35:29] more clear of what w- what is expected.
[35:33] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[35:34] Kasey: And, um, I mean, we have safe, safe sport programs where we have to
[35:38] renew our safe sport, I think every year.
[35:40] Mm-hmm.
[35:40] They should be doing that with all of our rules that are changing.
[35:45] Yeah.
[35:45] And, like, all of our expectations that, you know, we w- we're cracking
[35:51] down on the welfare of the horse.
[35:53] Okay, but what does that look like?
[35:54] And, you know, like kind of formulating more of an education
[35:57] process- Yeah … versus, like, kind of just, "You're eliminated."
[36:02] What for?
[36:03] You know?
[36:03] Like- Yeah … peop- people are kind of walking out of the rings going, like,
[36:07] " Noelle: Why?" Do you also think… And this is something I've always been curious
[36:10] about, and now we have trans- Like, so now when you watch a dressage test, and this
[36:14] wasn't always the case, but when you watch a dressage test, they have it openly where
[36:18] they're, how the, how it's being scored.
[36:20] Mm-hmm.
[36:20] Right?
[36:21] And that's really cool, and when that changed, I think
[36:23] everyone really appreciated it.
[36:24] Kasey: Yeah.
[36:25] Noelle: When you finish a test, what's the process to having access to your
[36:28] scorecard and, like, access to the judges?
[36:30] Kasey: It's pretty… I think it's once the test, once the class is
[36:33] done, the… And they do live scoring, so if you're sitting, um, I don't
[36:38] know if they do it for the CDI.
[36:40] Oh, they might.
[36:41] Yeah, I think they do because one of my friends was watching a live scoring.
[36:44] So you can see the scores right away.
[36:46] Noelle: Hmm.
[36:47] Kasey: Um, and you can see the comments from the judges.
[36:51] Half the time I would say that they're not- You know, the, it's quite fast.
[36:56] Okay.
[36:56] So I think that it's, the comments are brief.
[37:00] Okay.
[37:00] Um, and a lot of times we already know what they are.
[37:03] Noelle: Mm.
[37:03] Kasey: And, like, what we're still working on and, like, things like that.
[37:07] But the judging can… There needs to be more open dialogue with that, too.
[37:13] Well, and I wonder- Because everyone wants to be like, "It's the judge's fault,"
[37:16] but w- okay, yeah, probably, and what, w- there, what, what can we learn from it?
[37:22] Mm-hmm.
[37:22] You know, how can we be better?
[37:23] Is your horse, you know, behind the vertical and, like,
[37:26] really tight in its neck?
[37:28] Okay, well then you need to keep working on that, you know, and not
[37:31] expect these huge scores because your horse's legs move really big, you know?
[37:36] Noelle: Well, and I also think that that's, I wonder if that's
[37:39] a wonderful opportunity for there to be more education- Yeah
[37:43] of the viewership.
[37:43] Yeah.
[37:44] Right?
[37:44] Mm-hmm.
[37:44] Because I know… So I'm curious what you think about this, because during Paris,
[37:49] there was a lot of discussion online- Mm … about what the public or the general
[37:54] collective who are viewing and watching- Mm … Paris and watching the dressage,
[37:58] they felt like the more control and less fluidity, more behind the vertical, and
[38:06] less what maybe the collective understand as the correct contact and correct angles-
[38:14] Kasey: Mm-hmm
[38:15] Noelle: of that contact were being rewarded.
[38:18] Do you think that we could have more opportunity to explain… Do you think
[38:24] the judging within dressage at the Olympic level and at the international
[38:28] level- Could have an opportunity to then educate the public how they're judging
[38:34] each of the individual pairs and why
[38:37] Kasey: I mean, I think, I think, yes.
[38:39] I think that they could always in the commentary, like there's
[38:42] always a running commentary, someone that is talking about it.
[38:45] Mm-hmm.
[38:46] I think it would be awesome to have a judge-
[38:49] Noelle: Yeah
[38:49] … Kasey: in with the person that's commentating.
[38:52] There are breaks in between everything also.
[38:54] Like, there's 15-minute drag breaks.
[38:56] Why don't they, you know, show an educational film?
[39:02] Or this is at the Olympic level, so it's more of, like, viewer,
[39:06] that people that don't know.
[39:07] Yeah.
[39:08] You know?
[39:08] And, and talk about the sport, and talk about the different movements
[39:12] we're doing, and, you know, the, the, the ideal frame and, um,
[39:18] collection, and all that kind of stuff.
[39:20] I think it would be awesome.
[39:21] Noelle: So a big topic, and a topic that was very present during Paris,
[39:25] was horses that go behind the vertical.
[39:27] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[39:28] Noelle: For someone who's walking down the street- Yeah … and they see, and we're
[39:31] talking about being behind the vertical.
[39:33] Mm-hmm.
[39:33] Or let's say Dana.
[39:34] Yeah.
[39:34] Let's say Dana for the first time said, "What's this whole behind
[39:36] Kasey: the
[39:37] Noelle: vertical
[39:37] Kasey: thing?" Yeah,
[39:37] Noelle: yeah.
[39:38] How did you explain it to him?
[39:39] Kasey: I would say the pole needs to be the highest point, right?
[39:42] So for then, if you're looking at the neck, it needs to arc up to
[39:45] the pole at the highest point, and then when you, if you draw a line-
[39:49] Noelle: Hmm
[39:49] … Kasey: from that down to the, from the forehead down to the nose, the nose should
[39:53] not be pulled back farther than that line.
[39:56] And is it a thing in every sport?
[40:00] It is.
[40:00] Noelle: Yes.
[40:01] Kasey: Every sport.
[40:02] And I think that it is, is one of the hardest training things because there
[40:09] are horses confirmationally, I think, that tend to suck behind the vertical-
[40:14] Noelle: Yes
[40:14] … Kasey: no matter how hard you try.
[40:16] And so it's hard to, to train a horse that wants to do that- Mm-hmm … and
[40:22] actually have true thoroughness, too.
[40:23] Yes.
[40:24] And so I think that The, the education around that is also important.
[40:33] This might be a, a red, a hot button, but I think that it is… Everyone would love
[40:40] to do, not everyone, but a lot of people would love to be able to ride bridleless
[40:45] and do the pirouettes and like- Do
[40:48] Noelle: the complicated maneuvers that you guys do.
[40:49] Kasey: Mm-hmm … yeah.
[40:50] And I think that, I think it, it's beautiful.
[40:53] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[40:53] Kasey: And I would love to do that- Mm
[40:56] and have that talent.
[40:58] Is it realistic?
[41:00] Probably not-
[41:01] Noelle: Mm
[41:01] … Kasey: I would say, for true thoroughness and, and rideability.
[41:05] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[41:06] Kasey: And sometimes maybe those horses aren't the happiest either, you know?
[41:10] Noelle: I think
[41:12] Kasey: there's a big misconception about that.
[41:13] There, there is, there is a point to where when they're really above the vertical- Mm
[41:16] or above the- their, their poll's too high-
[41:19] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[41:20] … Kasey: and too out, like, the nose is too far out, their drop- their backs drop.
[41:25] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[41:25] Kasey: And so I think that there's a fine line that that's also not, uh, you
[41:30] know, in education people think that that's what horses should be doing,
[41:34] and, um, I think that those horses could also have some pain involved, too.
[41:39] Yes.
[41:40] You know?
[41:40] Yeah.
[41:40] And so I think that there's a line between, between all of it.
[41:44] Noelle: So when you are seeking that- perfect balance, that sweet spot-
[41:51] Mm-hmm … Karen Rohlf calls it.
[41:52] Kasey: Yeah.
[41:53] Noelle: Where the poll is the highest point.
[41:55] Mm-hmm.
[41:55] And the nose has not dropped behind that, would it be perpendicular?
[42:00] Kasey: Yep.
[42:00] Noelle: Yep.
[42:01] Angle.
[42:02] Why?
[42:03] Why do we want that place?
[42:05] Kasey: I believe structurally for the horse it's the most comfortable spot.
[42:10] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[42:10] Kasey: I think when they start to break over and pull their nose
[42:14] behind, it causes a lot of tension within the top part of their neck
[42:18] and their throat latch- Mm … area.
[42:21] And I think that that can cause some possible breathing- Mm-hmm
[42:26] stuff going on.
[42:27] Um, there's, there's also a point where it drops, help- it will
[42:34] almost sink their shoulders and their s- their, um, sternum down.
[42:38] Noelle: Mm.
[42:38] Kasey: And so when they're being ridden like that, it can just affect their
[42:40] whole back, their whole top line really.
[42:43] Noelle: But- It also makes me think of all that liberty work
[42:49] you've done with your horses.
[42:50] Something that I've learnt on this trip- Mm … that from both Western and English
[42:54] riders- Mm … is that you get to learn where your horse's point of balance is.
[42:58] Kasey: 1,000%.
[42:59] Yep.
[43:00] 1,000%. I… And every horse is so different, right?
[43:05] And then, you know, I-
[43:06] Noelle: Wait, say that again
[43:07] … Kasey: every horse is very different.
[43:08] Noelle: So a point of balance-
[43:10] Kasey: Yeah
[43:10] Noelle: for Doublé-
[43:12] Kasey: Yeah
[43:12] … Noelle: is gonna be different to a point of balance for Heart.
[43:15] Yes.
[43:15] Is it gonna be different to a point of balance for my mare?
[43:17] Kasey: Yes.
[43:18] Noelle: And so when we, we can't copy and paste-
[43:21] Kasey: Yeah
[43:21] … Noelle: what throughness looks like for each horse.
[43:24] Kasey: Yeah.
[43:24] And I think that goes back to Dana, because, and the, and the horsemanship
[43:29] side of things, because that's one of the, the few things that they look for, is,
[43:36] is helping a horse find its own balance.
[43:39] And then, which is hard because now I look at how some people start their
[43:46] horses in the, in our world, and how we almost take that completely away from
[43:52] them, completely away by putting on side reins and, you know, really tight on
[43:58] the outside, causing them to lean in, you know, all to put them in a frame
[44:03] and make them move bigger, you know?
[44:06] And find throughness that way versus finding throughness through them first
[44:11] finding balance in where their feet are.
[44:15] And when they don't know where their feet are, you're kind of screwed.
[44:18] So- Yes … that's when the rearing comes and, like, they get… You know,
[44:22] you have no tools to help, help them.
[44:24] Noelle: Yeah.
[44:24] Kasey: And, um, so when, when you can You know, I, I don't
[44:31] use side reins or draw reins.
[44:33] I'm not educated in them because I never use them, and I would
[44:37] rather work through thoroughness and, and problems without them.
[44:41] Noelle: Hmm.
[44:42] Kasey: And because I think that that's when you really get to the
[44:44] nitty-gritty of what's going on.
[44:47] Noelle: Well, and I love what you said there about you're not educated with them.
[44:50] Yeah.
[44:50] Because I do think that understanding how to use training aids- Mm-hmm
[44:57] … effectively- Mm-hmm … so that they become tools, not handicaps.
[45:03] Yes.
[45:04] Yeah.
[45:04] I also feel like I'm only just starting to understand how… You know, when I
[45:10] watch colt starting done really, really well, what I love is everything that they
[45:16] do when they start a horse and they first back a horse, everything they do has
[45:22] some correlation to how the horse will feel or how, what the horse is gonna be
[45:27] asked of when they're backed for- Mm-hmm
[45:29] the second or third or fourth time.
[45:30] Kasey: Yeah.
[45:31] Noelle: The amount, it's like a spiderweb.
[45:33] Mm-hmm.
[45:33] It's like this- Yep … it's amazing.
[45:35] It's
[45:35] Kasey: overwhelming.
[45:35] Noelle: Yeah, it is.
[45:36] Yeah.
[45:36] And so, like, shout out to everyone who- Yeah … does this for a living.
[45:39] Yeah.
[45:40] Because when I first started watching, like, oh, and then, you know, this
[45:44] piece will lend to when the horse is feeling pressure on this- Mm-hmm
[45:47] on, uh, from the leg.
[45:48] Kasey: Yeah.
[45:48] Noelle: And this will be a tool that you're gonna use when the horse starts
[45:52] to get quick, you're gonna, this is gonna be able to how you slow down the pace.
[45:55] Kasey: Yep.
[45:55] Noelle: This is when you switch eyes.
[45:56] Kasey: Yeah.
[45:57] Noelle: This is when you cross your ba- you know, your weight across the back.
[45:59] Mm-hmm.
[45:59] Yeah.
[45:59] Like, I remember just being like, "Wow, there's so much science-"
[46:05] Kasey: Yeah
[46:05] Noelle: behind when you start a horse, and you can truly, through a
[46:09] very small handful of moments, give the horse all the tools they need
[46:15] to understand what they're gonna be asked of when you're s- when you're
[46:18] Kasey: sitting- From the ground … fr-
[46:19] Noelle: from the ground.
[46:20] Kasey: Yeah.
[46:21] Noelle: Right?
[46:21] Kasey: Yeah.
[46:22] So if this is not, like- I'm not a pro at it, and it makes me, like,
[46:26] excited to, to talk about it because it's like, it is really interesting.
[46:31] Noelle: Yeah.
[46:31] So much of what we do on the ground, that's why it's so incredible that
[46:35] an Olympic dressage rider is, is… And, and a, and a colt starter and,
[46:42] and natural horseman are together having conversations- Yeah … in
[46:45] your life, building a life together.
[46:48] Because I believe one of the greatest opportunities the horse world has right
[46:55] now is to recognize that as much profound moments can happen on the ground-
[47:01] Kasey: Yeah
[47:02] Noelle: as can happen in the saddle.
[47:03] Kasey: Yep.
[47:04] Noelle: And that as much communication, um, training can happen on the ground
[47:10] that will inform your time in the saddle.
[47:12] Kasey: Yeah.
[47:13] Noelle: I mean,
[47:13] Kasey: my husband already put, like, he… When I got on our baby for, after I got on
[47:19] for the first time, that was terrifying.
[47:20] Because he, he put me in the round pen with his other horse- Mm-hmm
[47:25] uh, Chug, and… His name was Chug, Chugalug.
[47:28] Noelle: Great name.
[47:28] Great name.
[47:29] The cutest thing
[47:30] Kasey: ever.
[47:30] And he dowed off on Chug-
[47:32] Noelle: Mm
[47:33] … Kasey: my baby.
[47:34] Mm-hmm.
[47:34] And he was like, "This horse can't go anywhere, so you can get on.
[47:37] He'll just probably try to run around Chug, and Chug won't do
[47:41] anything." And I'm like, "Just running around Chug makes me nervous."
[47:44] Because I have no r- I have no bridle on.
[47:47] Yeah.
[47:47] I just have a rope or a rope halter.
[47:49] And, um- And then once he started doing more of the actual, like, handiwork on
[47:56] him, I got on him this last… I think I just got on him, I think, a couple
[48:01] months ago, and I could leg yield him.
[48:05] I could put on haunches in.
[48:08] I can do walk pirouettes.
[48:09] I can do turn on the forehand.
[48:10] I can do, you know, all these things that dressage babies don't know.
[48:15] Like, they don't usually do that- Mm-hmm … because we just go
[48:18] straight and forward, you know?
[48:20] And, like, that's a big thing in our sport.
[48:23] And, um, but now I have the tools to where if I go into a new
[48:28] environment, I can keep his feet busy, and he knows where his feet are.
[48:34] So if I get stuck, I have tools to go and do something with him, instead of him
[48:40] just being panicked and running, you know?
[48:43] And I think that it opened my eyes to a lot of that kind of stuff, of how we
[48:48] don't, we don't introduce that until, I think they're f- they're five, six maybe.
[48:54] Noelle: Yeah, yeah.
[48:55] Kasey: It's so
[48:55] Noelle: cool, the relationship with the aids.
[48:57] Yeah.
[48:57] And what, you know, leg yielding, turn on the haunches, this
[49:00] is distribution of balance.
[49:01] Yes.
[49:01] Right?
[49:01] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[49:02] Noelle: It's actually, like, when you talk to it, and it's so
[49:04] fascinating, 'cause you must have conversations with Dana, and he's
[49:06] like- Yep … "Yeah, that's like, duh."
[49:09] still learning this at the Grand Prix level.
[49:11] I mean, it's like insane.
[49:14] But yeah.
[49:15] I think that's really special.
[49:16] Yeah.
[49:16] You know, and I think it's really cool that you guys have… And I
[49:19] love that you call your program and this, this, this endeavor, this, this
[49:24] journey that you're both on called Two Worlds- Yeah … Two Worlds, um,
[49:28] Equestrian because that's what it is.
[49:30] Yeah.
[49:30] But I think that there's magic in that, you know?
[49:34] Um, what does Dana, what advice, I, 'cause you s- I think the opportunity
[49:38] that you both have had to navigate the Olympics together- Mm-hmm … I'm very
[49:42] curious, what did he think about all that kind of, that level of pressure?
[49:47] Kasey: Uh, he loves it.
[49:48] He's a sport, he's a sports guy, so he is like, he loves the competition of it.
[49:53] Mm. And, um, I think that he, he has helped me.
[49:59] I, I was in the stage at one point, um, after the Olympics, I went
[50:03] through a pretty bad depression right after the Olympics, and I
[50:08] put so much pressure on myself.
[50:09] It was like a gear-up to this huge goal that I wanted for, uh,
[50:14] five years that I had with Doublé.
[50:16] And there was a lot of pressure of like, I bought this horse, you know, our goal was
[50:20] the Olympics, and all this kind of stuff.
[50:22] And then you got
[50:22] Noelle: to the Olympics.
[50:23] I
[50:23] Kasey: got to the Olympics, and it was not my best… It actually probably was
[50:27] my worst performance that I've had on him.
[50:31] Noelle: Really?
[50:31] Kasey: And, um, it was so hard.
[50:34] I ended up going through a really dep- bad depression after, and I competed
[50:39] the next year, and then Doublé had an injury, so I had to kind of back off.
[50:44] And I've done a lot of work on my m- on my mental state because I'm an
[50:50] overachiever, and I am like, I don't care if I'm sick, I don't care if I, you
[50:56] know, have so much on my plate, like I, I almost thrive in that kind of stuff.
[51:01] Mm. But it's almost like a, a toxic trait, I would say.
[51:06] Mm. And it's, I've had a really hard time slowing down.
[51:08] And once I had my child, my little girl True, um, I, I struggled
[51:15] again of trying to prioritize my ambitions and my goals and slowing
[51:21] down and being present for my child.
[51:24] And Dana is always in a state of presence.
[51:30] Like, he, he's always really quite focused on the basics in
[51:35] life, I guess you would say.
[51:36] Noelle: Yeah.
[51:37] And I'm always looking at him like, "What are you thinking about?"
[51:38] He's like, "Nothing." And I'm like- … "I wish I could have
[51:42] that," 'cause I'm always thinking.
[51:44] Kasey: And, um- I
[51:45] Noelle: totally relate
[51:45] … Kasey: and so- I went through a stage of blacking out when I was riding.
[51:51] Noelle: Oh.
[51:51] Like,
[51:52] Kasey: me- not physically.
[51:53] Like, it wasn't, like, falling off.
[51:55] Yeah.
[51:55] I just would get so in, so tuned in on my rides or on a problem I was having- Mm
[52:03] to where I would think it was, like, five minutes has passed, and it was,
[52:07] like, 15, 10, 15 minutes had passed, and I was working on that same
[52:12] thing over and over and over again.
[52:14] And I would- Mm … black out time.
[52:16] And, um, so I think what Dana's… The tuning into this kind of stuff that he
[52:23] does, has, has really helped the fact that there's pressure at the top, and there's
[52:29] a lot of, like, things have to be perfect.
[52:33] You have to be solid.
[52:35] You have to, like, you know, go in with clean tests, add power.
[52:38] Like, you have to have the whole shebang.
[52:39] Noelle: Yeah.
[52:40] Kasey: And that takes time.
[52:42] That takes time to develop, and I put so much pressure on myself to
[52:47] do it as fast as I did with Doublé.
[52:49] Noelle: Mm.
[52:49] Kasey: And, you know, just looking back at his career, I'm like, he
[52:54] was not his best at his first year.
[52:55] It took three, at least three years to be at his top
[52:59] performance, three or four years.
[53:01] And I think that we expect to be able to go out in our first test in
[53:05] national, or first test in the CDI, and just blow everyone away, you know?
[53:11] And I think that's a pressure we put on ourselves that is unnecessary.
[53:14] Noelle: Mm.
[53:15] Kasey: And, um, and so I think Dana's helped a lot with just pers- perspective
[53:22] of, you know, like, "You're doing great. You're doing the work that is
[53:26] good for you, good for your horse, and, you know, don't get flustered by
[53:31] the outside noise, and just stay in, stay in your little bubble." You know?
[53:37] Noelle: I completely relate-
[53:38] Kasey: Yeah
[53:38] Noelle: for the record.
[53:40] I think it's hard not to be… It's a balance between being ambitious-
[53:44] Kasey: Mm-hmm
[53:44] … Noelle: and then being impatient.
[53:47] Kasey: Yeah.
[53:47] Noelle: And I actually have a theory, and I'm super curious
[53:50] what you think about this.
[53:52] So, in the modern, in the, in the world that we live in now, I actually think
[53:57] it's harder to be a great horseman than it was 50 years ago, and I'll tell you why.
[54:04] So, I can order, I can order anything I want on Amazon,
[54:09] and it'll be here tomorrow.
[54:10] Kasey: I'm a horrible Amazon person.
[54:12] Me too.
[54:13] Noelle: My husband is so annoyed.
[54:16] You can go to Starbucks, and you can actually order the drink
[54:19] that you want, and it'll be ready for you when you get there.
[54:22] Kasey: Yeah.
[54:22] Noelle: You have a gas station every block.
[54:26] You can book a flight to anywhere in the world.
[54:29] You can change… You buy something, you can change it in a heartbeat, and
[54:34] th- it's almost ludicrous to think that you wouldn't be able to do that.
[54:37] Kasey: Yeah.
[54:38] Noelle: So, the world has become immediate.
[54:43] And yet horses have not changed.
[54:45] They still require the same amount of time-
[54:49] Kasey: Yeah
[54:50] Noelle: and thought and patience that they did 100 years ago.
[54:54] Mm-hmm.
[54:55] But I actually think society mentored us to be far more patient.
[54:58] Think, during the war, people had to wait sometimes months before they heard-
[55:03] Kasey: Oh
[55:03] … Noelle: from their loved ones.
[55:04] Kasey: Yeah.
[55:04] Noelle: Yeah.
[55:05] I can text, and if I see, like, the three, what is it?
[55:07] Three dots- Yeah
[55:09] and then it goes away- Yeah … I'm like, "Well, what,
[55:11] what were they gonna say?" What?
[55:12] Wait, what?
[55:13] And I… And then it says read, but I haven't- Yeah … have
[55:16] received a response.
[55:17] Kasey: Yeah.
[55:18] Noelle: Y- you know, that, like- Yep … rabbit hole you go down.
[55:20] You're like, "Why hasn't that person responded?"
[55:22] Kasey: Yeah,
[55:22] Noelle: yeah.
[55:22] Okay, I think it's actually harder than it's ever been- Yeah
[55:27] for humans to be patient.
[55:28] Kasey: Yeah, 1000%.
[55:30] I think that, and the expectations are, are real high.
[55:34] Instead of, like, again, getting into it while we're in it is the horses, you know?
[55:40] And, like, I feel like, and I… It's harder down here in Wellington, I would
[55:45] say, to slow down, because it's a bit of a rat race of, "Well, they're showing.
[55:50] I need to show." Mm-hmm. You know? And, like, "It's halfway through season.
[55:52] Why haven't you showed yet?" And, you know, like, all these, like, conversations
[55:56] that happen, or, you know, people wanting, like, these, these really big scores,
[56:01] and maybe it's the f- trainer's fault not, like, being, like, the expectations.
[56:06] Mm-hmm.
[56:06] You know, like, putting that out.
[56:08] But I'm also the type of person that loves believing in people, and
[56:13] believing in that, like, they can go out and do it, and, like, never giving
[56:17] up on someone because, you know, they, they have this ambitious dream.
[56:22] Mm-hmm.
[56:22] You know?
[56:23] And so I'm the worst when it comes to, "So do you think I can do this?" I'm like,
[56:27] "I can't say no, because I don't think…
[56:29] I think there's a possibility for everything." Cool.
[56:32] So it's, like, it's really hard for me to balance that- Yeah … of, like, reality
[56:35] and… But, um, but I think that people, especially the younger generation, see
[56:43] all, all the, the Social media reels and all the- The highlight reels … highlight
[56:49] reels that come out, and you're like, "Wow, that was, that was amazing."
[56:54] But their test probably wasn't that good.
[56:56] You know what I mean?
[56:56] Mm-hmm.
[56:56] Like, it like, it's, it's a hard, hard world to live in.
[57:00] Noelle: Mm. My child would not have a phone.
[57:02] Yeah.
[57:03] I feel the same way, actually.
[57:05] Yeah.
[57:05] I didn't have a… When was, when did you first get a phone?
[57:07] I
[57:07] Kasey: don't, I think I was in high school, but they
[57:09] were like the little Nokia-
[57:12] Noelle: Same
[57:12] ones, Snake, and all that.
[57:12] The flip.
[57:12] Do you remember the flip phones?
[57:12] Kasey: Yeah.
[57:13] And the, you know, like all that kind of stuff.
[57:15] But nowadays, like, I think that social media can be such a fun
[57:18] thing, but also such a scary…
[57:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[57:22] You said that you've worked a lot on your mental game.
[57:25] Kasey: Yeah.
[57:26] Noelle: Can you share a little bit with what, what you've done?
[57:29] Kasey: Sure.
[57:29] I actually, I worked, um, with Annette Paterakis.
[57:33] Totally butchered that.
[57:34] But, um, she is, she is amazing.
[57:38] Um, she worked a lot with finding my score, finding my number, and, um, of
[57:46] how I'm feeling that day for the show.
[57:48] Noelle: Mm.
[57:49] Kasey: If I feel too excited, if… And so I had to I had to find my perfect number
[57:56] that, like, my perfect level of excitement with my perfect level of relaxation.
[58:01] And so she was like, "If you are too on the high end, you know, maybe you need
[58:08] to do some jumping jacks. Like, maybe go for a little run. Maybe, like, turn
[58:12] on some meditation music, something to bring that score back down." Mm. Um, I
[58:17] guess jumping jacks wouldn't do that.
[58:19] That would bring me up.
[58:20] But, like, going and, you know, looking at the low end, if I'm
[58:23] too tired, maybe I need to take a nap to rejuvenate my- Mm-hmm
[58:27] number.
[58:28] Yep.
[58:28] Or put on some upbeat music or something to get me a little bit more spicy.
[58:32] Like jumping jacks.
[58:33] Like jumping jacks.
[58:34] Yep.
[58:35] So I've had to kind of, like, find that, and I actually found that when I
[58:41] feel my gr- my best is when I am, um, not putting so much pressure on myself.
[58:47] Mm. You know?
[58:48] Like, I feel like that was, like, the main thing, is if I'm somewhat having
[58:52] fun, 'cause it's showing stressful.
[58:55] No one's gonna say it's, like, always fun, and there's a l- there's a level
[59:00] of anxiousness that makes it not so fun.
[59:03] And, um, but if I can, if I can connect with my horse, I braid him.
[59:09] I do that, like, all myself.
[59:11] I'm usually really good about being so hands-on.
[59:15] If I can connect with him that way and then have my routine
[59:19] to keep my nerves happy- Mm-hmm
[59:22] then I'm usually at, I'm usually really good, and I have to
[59:25] have a lot of good self-talk.
[59:27] Um, and then I also worked with Jenny Susser-
[59:31] Noelle: Nice
[59:31] … Kasey: who I adore.
[59:34] Noelle: Yeah.
[59:34] I think she- Shout out to Dr. Jenny.
[59:36] Kasey: Dr. Jenny is amazing.
[59:37] She worked with me a lot on, um, a lot of, like, life, I would say, stressors.
[59:45] Mm-hmm.
[59:45] Um, like with coaching and with people that are, were
[59:50] in my, my program or my team.
[59:53] And, um, she really encouraged me to create the perfect ideal team, you know?
[59:59] And, like, everyone that… My goal was to have vets, farriers,
[1:00:04] body workers, everyone communicate.
[1:00:07] No one has egos, you know?
[1:00:10] I think that dealing with egos is, like, not fun.
[1:00:13] Not on my, like, my team.
[1:00:14] I'm, I'm a sensitive person, so I w- I like to be able to communicate with
[1:00:19] someone if I don't like it or if I have a question, or, um, I don't challenge
[1:00:26] I'm not meaning it in a challenging way.
[1:00:28] I'm just, education.
[1:00:29] I like to learn about it.
[1:00:31] And so she really pushed me into having the ideal team.
[1:00:37] And right now I'm like, I've gained my ideal team.
[1:00:41] And I love every person that's on it.
[1:00:44] And, um, and she's just helped me work through, uh, j- how would you say it?
[1:00:51] Uh, transitions.
[1:00:52] You know, I ha- I talked to her when I was having my baby.
[1:00:55] Mm. And, um, the sh- the anxiousness that I had going to try horses, I was
[1:01:02] terrified because I would see horses that Dana would work with that people just
[1:01:07] got in and that they've gotten bucked off of, or they just, you know, they just
[1:01:12] had some, some behavioral issues with.
[1:01:15] Mm. I was terrified to go get on these new horses, 'cause I was
[1:01:18] like, "I see what's out there."
[1:01:21] Mm. "I don't wanna get on something that's gonna kill me." Mm. You know?
[1:01:24] Healthy respect for a horse.
[1:01:26] Yeah.
[1:01:26] For sure.
[1:01:27] But they've… So I've done a lot of just both sides.
[1:01:31] I think therapy's amazing.
[1:01:33] Um, and I probably in my situation would say that I, Dana and I have been in and
[1:01:42] out of marriage counseling and, um, we've worked through a lot, which is great.
[1:01:47] Um, I think right now we are in a stage of I actually love therapy, but I don't
[1:01:54] think right now it's valuable for us.
[1:01:56] Hmm.
[1:01:57] I don't know why, but I feel like I don't want any… I don't want him…
[1:02:01] 'Cause I see the, um, for him, I see the work that he puts into our
[1:02:07] relationship- Mm-hmm … that, um, that is good enough for me right now.
[1:02:12] And I'm like, I don't want anyone to come in and I'm almost being protective of him.
[1:02:15] Noelle: Good for you.
[1:02:16] Kasey: I don't want anyone to come in here and, like, be like, "That's
[1:02:18] not enough," or like- Yeah … you know, tear him, tear him down or,
[1:02:21] you know, anything like that, so.
[1:02:23] Noelle: I actually think-
[1:02:24] Kasey: That might be too much information.
[1:02:26] Sorry, Dana.
[1:02:28] But…
[1:02:29] Noelle: I feel like I know Dana.
[1:02:30] He, he's wonderful.
[1:02:31] After this episode, I can't wait to meet him.
[1:02:33] He's awesome.
[1:02:33] I think, well, and I think it's really cool that you just named
[1:02:36] that because I think talk therapy is one modality of therapy.
[1:02:39] Yeah.
[1:02:39] And I don't necessarily think it's, it's supportive for everyone all the time.
[1:02:42] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:02:43] And I, and I think it's, and another thing I, I find is that sports psychology
[1:02:48] can, can… You have to find the right person because in my case, I would
[1:02:54] love someone that dabbles in all of it.
[1:02:56] Noelle: Hmm.
[1:02:56] Kasey: It's not just about performance.
[1:02:58] There is a deeper level of it to where something that is happening in your real
[1:03:03] life or your childhood or something like that can affect your performance now
[1:03:10] And I feel like that's what I haven't…
[1:03:12] Dr. Jenny was really good at that.
[1:03:14] Yeah.
[1:03:15] I think she was, she was hands down the greatest with that, is that it's, it's
[1:03:19] an all-encompassing thing, and people are afraid, I think we talked about
[1:03:23] that earlier- Yeah … to dig into that.
[1:03:24] Yeah.
[1:03:24] And I think that, um, to be confident in our riding and the way that we
[1:03:30] train our horses, it's so important to air that stuff out and work with it.
[1:03:34] Yeah.
[1:03:35] You should… It's funny, 'cause when Megan first started with me, the g- the
[1:03:39] girl that works for me is amazing, and she's like my… She's just like me in
[1:03:44] the sense, like, we're both, like, we love people, we love encouraging, and
[1:03:50] all that kind of stuff, and when she first started with me, I was broken.
[1:03:55] Like Just I knew who I was, but I was so insecure.
[1:04:01] Mm. And I had all these accolades, but I was so like, "I can't do this." Like,
[1:04:06] I can't… My, my confidence was so low.
[1:04:09] I had a hard time having any type of hard conversation.
[1:04:12] Like, actually standing, you know, like, standing my ground for, for anything.
[1:04:18] Having a boundary, you can have a healthy boundary with everything.
[1:04:21] Oh,
[1:04:21] Noelle: God, dude.
[1:04:21] What are boundaries?
[1:04:22] Kasey: I don't know.
[1:04:23] I've had to figure that out.
[1:04:24] And so, I still- Me too … figure it out.
[1:04:26] Yeah.
[1:04:26] And so, but for me to, like, say, "No, I don't wanna do, do it like
[1:04:30] that," like, you can, you can say no in a very respectful way.
[1:04:34] Or take, take in information, but n- don't have to do anything with it.
[1:04:39] That was a big thing for me, to be like, I'm a knowledge freak, and I
[1:04:43] will just keep taking information, and I will pick away at what
[1:04:47] works for, for me and my program.
[1:04:50] Noelle: Yes.
[1:04:50] Kasey: And I might try it.
[1:04:51] It might not feel right for me, and so I won't use it.
[1:04:54] And I think that that's been a huge growing process.
[1:04:58] Mm-hmm.
[1:04:58] And so if you were to ask Megan how I was, like, five years ago versus now,
[1:05:03] it's like, it's very different, and I've done, you know, the work that I've…
[1:05:08] It doesn't feel like work because I think it's just a growing process through
[1:05:11] life, but it's, it's been a journey.
[1:05:14] Noelle: Well, and I think when you're really open, and I'm curious what…
[1:05:18] If this has been your experience, but I think when you're really
[1:05:20] open, you also are open… When you, when you're like a sponge, like- Mm
[1:05:23] Josh Nichols, like, "Noelle, you have this insatiable, like, t- um, what's
[1:05:30] it? Insatiable craving to learn." Yeah.
[1:05:32] And then you have this, like, overwhelming desire to share it.
[1:05:36] Kasey: Mm-hmm.
[1:05:36] Noelle: So when you do that- Yeah … then what happens is that you're very open.
[1:05:41] And so I, I have been victim of, like, actually hearing and really absorbing
[1:05:46] what people say about my, about, about me-
[1:05:48] Kasey: Yeah
[1:05:48] Noelle: to me, about my horses, about the horse world.
[1:05:52] Yeah.
[1:05:52] And it took a lot of work and, like, self-co- like, self-worth, confidence,
[1:05:58] maturity- Mm … mostly maturity-
[1:05:59] Kasey: Yeah
[1:06:00] … Noelle: um, to then be able to, like you said, discern what actually
[1:06:04] aligns with- Yeah … you personally-
[1:06:05] Kasey: Yeah
[1:06:07] … Noelle: so that you can stay open and honest- Yeah … and vulnerable, but then
[1:06:10] remember that what everyone says to you-
[1:06:13] Kasey: Yeah
[1:06:13] Noelle: about you, about your horses, or about horsemanship- Mm-hmm … may
[1:06:18] or may not align with you.
[1:06:20] Yeah.
[1:06:20] And that's okay.
[1:06:20] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:06:21] I, I had a… I did an interview right when I came down to Wellington for the
[1:06:25] first time with a lady, and she sat down with me, and I was… She, she looked me
[1:06:31] in the eyes and told me, "You're too nice.
[1:06:33] You need to, you're gonna have to get thicker skin to, to be in this
[1:06:35] sport." And I was like, I almost took offense to that and was like, "But I
[1:06:35] don't wanna change who I am." Like, I, I was kind of, like, annoyed by
[1:06:35] it and, you know, like, why can't I just be me and, like, be in the sport?
[1:06:49] Like, why does it have to be different?
[1:06:51] I now look at that and be like, okay, she was right in the sense I had to like
[1:06:56] kind of get thicker skin, but it was in a way that I wanted to get it, not in the
[1:07:01] way of I had to be hard, cold, and you know, like Abrasive Yeah You know, like
[1:07:08] that's what, what I thought she meant.
[1:07:09] And now I'm like, "Okay, she was right, but maybe in a different way than I was
[1:07:13] thinking." And I've actually matured into what she probably now would say
[1:07:16] and be like, "Okay, you've grown up."
[1:07:19] Noelle: Do you think people are inherently tough?
[1:07:23] Kasey: In our sport?
[1:07:24] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:07:24] Like, do you think we come out of the womb, like, tough?
[1:07:27] Kasey: No.
[1:07:28] Right.
[1:07:28] Noelle: No.
[1:07:29] So when I now experience that in people-
[1:07:32] Kasey: Yeah
[1:07:32] … Noelle: I'm like, it's like the same when you have some
[1:07:34] of the horses that Dana sees-
[1:07:35] Kasey: Yeah
[1:07:36] … Noelle: that have these huge defense mechanisms.
[1:07:38] Yeah.
[1:07:39] They didn't come out of the- Yeah … womb-
[1:07:42] Kasey: Yeah
[1:07:42] … Noelle: kicking and screaming and bucking and rearing- Yeah … going,
[1:07:45] "F you, this is bullshit."
[1:07:47] Yeah,
[1:07:47] Kasey: yeah, yeah.
[1:07:48] Noelle: They were-
[1:07:49] Kasey: It makes me second-guess my child's personality, though.
[1:07:53] Noelle: It's
[1:07:54] ' Kasey: cause she's
[1:07:54] Noelle: tough.
[1:07:54] Yeah.
[1:07:55] She's tough.
[1:07:55] And, but I think that it's- But is she tough or is she, like, strong?
[1:07:59] Kasey: She's strong, I would say.
[1:08:00] But, um, I think that, I think that that's why those teenage years of a
[1:08:05] horse, of baby teenage years- Yeah
[1:08:07] are important.
[1:08:08] Yes.
[1:08:08] And, like, Dana starts… He would really like to back his, and he says,
[1:08:12] "Don't touch them until they're two. Put them in a pasture. Do not touch them."
[1:08:16] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[1:08:16] Kasey: And, like, he gets annoyed when, you know, like, they're
[1:08:19] being handled with, um, halters and, like, all that kind of stuff.
[1:08:24] Yeah.
[1:08:24] 'Cause he almost thinks that that creates a bit of boundary.
[1:08:27] Like- Yes … it crosses boundaries.
[1:08:29] And when they're, they're two, he'll put, like, 30 days on them.
[1:08:32] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:33] Throw them out, and then by the time they're three and ready to
[1:08:36] start moving again, they already kind of know what's happening.
[1:08:39] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:39] And they mature a little bit, but they've… They were in that, that
[1:08:42] two-year-old, two-and-a-half-year-old stage of, like, that's when the imprint
[1:08:46] needs to happen, and then you can kind of do your harder work later on.
[1:08:50] But when they're not touched or, like, doing something until they're
[1:08:54] five because we think that they need to keep growing or, like, things
[1:08:57] like that, which could be the case.
[1:08:58] But he's like, "This kind of… There's too much time-
[1:09:02] Yeah … in between that." Yeah.
[1:09:04] But yeah, I don't think horses… I think they have personalities, but I
[1:09:07] don't think that they come out mean or-
[1:09:11] Noelle: So, 'cause I
[1:09:11] Kasey: also received that
[1:09:12] Noelle: message- Yeah
[1:09:13] of people like, "Oh, you better toughen up-
[1:09:15] Kasey: Yeah
[1:09:15] … Noelle: girl." Yeah.
[1:09:15] Like, especially when I started everything for Noëlle Floyd over in Europe.
[1:09:19] Yeah.
[1:09:19] Everyone's like, "Oh, honey, you're- Yeah … gonna have to really, you're gonna have
[1:09:24] to really…" I think the word was man up.
[1:09:25] Oh, yeah.
[1:09:26] And I was like, "Really? Okay."
[1:09:29] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:09:30] Noelle: And then actually, you know, I look back on it now, and
[1:09:34] it's like, sure, you're, you're, you're naive of certain things.
[1:09:38] Yeah.
[1:09:38] And that… But I totally relate to that feeling of, um, feeling broken.
[1:09:44] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:09:44] Noelle: I've been broken, I think, by the horse world more than once.
[1:09:48] Yeah.
[1:09:50] But then when we come back, we come back better.
[1:09:52] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:09:52] Noelle: Right?
[1:09:53] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:09:53] Noelle: And I think if we fight, I think- I think we should fight for the
[1:09:59] ability to be open and vulnerable- Yeah
[1:10:03] and honest and imperfect.
[1:10:05] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:10:06] Noelle: Because if we try to do the opposite, one, that's impossible.
[1:10:10] Mm-hmm.
[1:10:10] I think that's an impossible standard for all of us to try to achieve.
[1:10:13] Yeah.
[1:10:14] And two, it also, if we allow it in ourselves, then we allow it in the horses.
[1:10:18] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:10:19] Yeah.
[1:10:20] I agree.
[1:10:20] Noelle: What a world the horse wo- what, what- Yeah
[1:10:22] what would that look like in the horse world- Yeah … if we could,
[1:10:24] if we could allow that in our horses?
[1:10:26] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:10:27] Probably a lot of high-performing horses.
[1:10:31] And hel- m- mentally sane people, you know?
[1:10:35] It's, it's, um… Yeah, I agree.
[1:10:39] I've, I've always felt like that people aren't open enough.
[1:10:43] You know, it's- Mm … it's always felt very, uh, like, like
[1:10:47] we're kind of in an anomaly.
[1:10:49] You know, like I, like we're just too nice.
[1:10:53] But I think that people need to, they need to feel that.
[1:10:56] We need to feel, being able to feel safe, and right now with our
[1:11:01] sport not feeling safe, I think that there, there's a level of, um-
[1:11:10] I don't know, talking about it more, and like opening up- Yeah … like
[1:11:13] as a human, that could definitely lead to our horses, for sure.
[1:11:17] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:11:17] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:11:17] Noelle: I think it's, it's important as the pendulum swings back and
[1:11:21] forth, which it always does.
[1:11:22] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:11:23] Noelle: It's important, I think, that we, one, allow for we're
[1:11:29] gonna be perfectly imperfect.
[1:11:32] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:11:32] Noelle: We'll never… Like, nothing that humans ever
[1:11:36] endeavor to do… I mean, what?
[1:11:38] A spaceship, spaceship just blew up.
[1:11:40] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:11:40] Noelle: Right?
[1:11:40] Yeah.
[1:11:40] Like, we're trying to, to, to do… Whenever we try as a, as a species,
[1:11:45] as an individual, to do great things, you are inevitably going to do it so
[1:11:49] imperfectly- Yeah … so many times before you do it just good enough- Yeah
[1:11:52] to do it.
[1:11:53] Yeah.
[1:11:54] And, um, it's really cool to see as the pendulum swings- Yeah … can
[1:12:01] we instead of virtue signaling, and instead of judging, and instead of
[1:12:04] shaming- Yeah … the things that you see that you don't like, can we
[1:12:07] instead have a conversation about it?
[1:12:09] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:12:09] Noelle: Can we even, what if, heaven forbid, we even allowed people who were
[1:12:14] doing something that we didn't like, what if we, like, ask them, "Hey, like- Yeah
[1:12:18] what's the thought process- Yeah … behind that?"
[1:12:21] Kasey: Yeah.
[1:12:21] "Could you explain it
[1:12:22] Noelle: to me?" Yep.
[1:12:23] What would that conversation be like?
[1:12:26] I'd be too terrified to ask.
[1:12:28] I don't know.
[1:12:30] Kasey: Oh, man.
[1:12:31] Yeah.
[1:12:31] It would be good.
[1:12:32] But I think that people, again, I think we've talked about it, but people go to
[1:12:36] those states of riding rough and, and not caring about the way that they're treating
[1:12:42] their horse because of lack of knowledge, and a lack of- You know, empathy Empathy.
[1:12:48] Mm-hmm.
[1:12:49] Yeah.
[1:12:50] Noelle: Okay.
[1:12:50] Before we wrap, I always ask the same rapid fire questions.
[1:12:54] Oh, God.
[1:12:55] And I'm so excited to hear your answers.
[1:12:58] Okay.
[1:12:59] If you could read one book to the horse world, what would it be?
[1:13:03] Kasey: How, uh, How Champions Think by Bob, Dr. Bob Rotella.
[1:13:08] Noelle: Cool.
[1:13:09] Kasey: That's a good one.
[1:13:09] And then Inner Excellence, Jim Murphy.
[1:13:13] That's a new one that we just started, I just started reading.
[1:13:15] Ooh.
[1:13:15] Um, but that talks a lot about, um, camaraderie and, and, you
[1:13:21] know, you're only good as your competition, and, like, really, you
[1:13:25] know, competition's not a bad thing.
[1:13:26] It's a good thing, and it's, it let- you know, raises the bar of the
[1:13:30] sport and all that kind of stuff.
[1:13:32] So that's… A lot of, like… It's, it… I find a lot of golf books and,
[1:13:38] and psychologists really good because the game of golf is such a mind game
[1:13:44] also, and so those, both of those guys work with a lot of golfers.
[1:13:49] I love it.
[1:13:49] Yeah.
[1:13:50] Noelle: Who is the most iconic horse in history?
[1:13:54] Kasey: I'm gonna say Diddy.
[1:13:56] Yeah?
[1:13:56] I love Diddy.
[1:13:58] I love him.
[1:13:59] I love Laura.
[1:14:00] I think that, to me, I know everyone says, like, Valegro and, like, Totalus and all
[1:14:04] that kind of stuff, but I lo- I think Diddy is, like, he's an epitome of, um,
[1:14:10] just this whole story with, with Laura.
[1:14:12] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:14:12] Kasey: Like, never giving up.
[1:14:13] She's had him, she had him for his whole life, and, like, it's
[1:14:17] just amazing what they accomplish.
[1:14:19] So I would
[1:14:20] Noelle: say Diddy.
[1:14:20] Mm. Shout out to Diddy and Laura.
[1:14:22] S- I, yeah, I'm with you on that.
[1:14:24] That was a, that's a good pick.
[1:14:26] Most undervalued skill as a rider.
[1:14:30] Kasey: Patience.
[1:14:32] Noelle: Who is the greatest horseman or horsewoman in history?
[1:14:36] Oh, gosh.
[1:14:39] Kasey: I'm gonna say Debbie McDonald.
[1:14:41] Ooh, good pick.
[1:14:43] Why?
[1:14:44] I think that she, as a rider, and as a, as a, just her, her philosophy of always
[1:14:52] putting the horse first has been, uh, an inspiration to me, and then my husband.
[1:14:58] Noelle: Mm. Good picks.
[1:15:00] And the last question, I'm very curious to hear what you say about
[1:15:02] this, mares, stallions, or gelding?
[1:15:05] Kasey: Geldings all day.
[1:15:06] Noelle: Yeah?
[1:15:08] Kasey: It's so funny 'cause I'm, like… I'm, I don't know why I've
[1:15:12] never really stuck with a mare.
[1:15:14] Mm. Because I, I can be really… I'm very patient.
[1:15:17] Like, I feel like I'm almost probably too patient.
[1:15:19] Mm-hmm.
[1:15:19] And I think that geldings are just sweet.
[1:15:25] Most of the time they're just super sweet.
[1:15:27] Straightforward most of the time.
[1:15:30] All horses are different, but yeah, I would say I s- usually
[1:15:33] stick with the geldings.
[1:15:34] I've had one stallion, and he was a pony.
[1:15:37] Noelle: Ooh, I love stallions too.
[1:15:38] Yeah.
[1:15:39] Casey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
[1:15:41] Thank you for having me.
[1:15:42] Man, that was such a cool conversation.
[1:15:44] Yeah

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