# The Rider Ego vs. The Horseman Standard: Turnout, Horse Karma, and Clear Boundaries Daniel Bluman Part 2

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 27 May 2026, 44 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/Daniel_Bluman_Part_2_with_AD.mp3?dest-id=4715857

It is easy to get wrapped up in the competitive environment when prize money and recognition wait at the gate. Our natural human instinct causes us to objectify horses as high-speed pieces of equipment or treat them like sentimental human pets, yet both approaches cause immense confusion for the animal. When challenges arise, a rider focuses strictly on overriding the obstacle in front of them, whereas a horseman steps back to evaluate the wider picture and protect the partnership. Daniel Bluman breaks down the psychological differences between these choices, sharing the real-world management practices that establish what he calls horse karma. He discusses why daily turnout and social connection create a healthier brain for an athletic horse, allowing them to remain sound and happy for years. • What is Horse Karma?: Daniel shares a childhood story from Colombia that shaped his belief that treating every horse with empathy always pays it forward. • Clarity is Humanity: Loving a horse means giving clear, decisive training directions instead of treats, carrots, and confusing human sentimentality. • Becoming Indispensable: Learning how the animal functions biologically makes a person scarce and highly valued, securing a sustainable livelihood. • Managing Social Validation: Daniel urges us to handle the craving for online recognition and instead celebrate the unseen daily lifestyle. Meet Daniel Daniel Bluman is an Olympic athlete and co-founder of Bluman Equestrian. He is an entrepreneur and a producer of horses who believes patience is a massive competitive advantage. His philosophy rests on the conviction that horses are our teachers, and our primary mission is to provide them with respect and dignity. Explore the mission at: BlumanEquestrian.com This episode is brought to you by: Connaway & Associates Equine Insurance Services, Inc. The friendly and knowledgeable team at Connaway & Associates brings together more than 30 years of experience to offer a wide range of insurance services, including horse insurance, farm insurance, and liability insurance. Visit www.connaway.net | @connawayassociates | facebook.com/connawayassociatesequine Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments. https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com Chapters and Time Stamps: 0:00 Horses are not equipment 4:00 Stop canceling riders you don't understand 5:10 Why clarity is kindness 8:32 The problem with humanizing horses 9:33 Why Daniel turns his horses out together 11:26 What stall life does to a horse's eyesight 12:54 When science catches up to horsemanship 14:00 Why the same ring every day limits your horse 17:00 The disappearing horseman 21:40 Horsemen always earn more than riders 25:35 Show jumping's social license problem 28:00 Managing the social media validation trap 35:50 Rapid fire questions

## Transcript

[0:05] Noelle: I wanna acknowledge what you're talking about is the
[0:07] antithesis of objectification.
[0:09] Do you know what I mean when I say that?
[0:10] Daniel: Yeah.
[0:11] Noelle: Because being in a sport and being in an industry that buys and
[0:15] sells horses, that the horses are athletes and the horses are a conduit
[0:20] for people to accomplish their goals, especially people who potentially are
[0:25] new to the sport or who are may- maybe have more access because of their
[0:30] f- social, socioeconomic situation.
[0:35] I am really moved by the fact that what you're talking about is truly
[0:42] the opposite of objectifying a horse.
[0:46] That when people... I've, I've heard, you and I both know people who talk
[0:49] about horses and say, "Well, they're like a piece of equipment to me." Yeah.
[0:53] And what you're talking about is the opposite of that, Daniel.
[0:55] Daniel: Yeah, no, to me, it's nothing to do with that.
[0:57] Like, total opposite.
[0:58] I understand, um, again, uh, the horse is a horse.
[1:02] I understand that we have, we have horses that are in- intended, uh, for business.
[1:08] Nevertheless, the treatment of the horse has to be correct.
[1:13] You know?
[1:13] And I understand that as you're growing up and you, you have different horses,
[1:16] you own different horses, horses come and go, all of that is understandable,
[1:20] and I'm not saying that you have to have every horse and, and love it how I
[1:24] love Gema or Adriano or Sancha or Corby.
[1:27] I'm, I'm not telling you that that's the... You don't have to
[1:30] have pictures of them and, and monuments around and, you know.
[1:33] There, there's some horses in the life, in your life that are different.
[1:37] Noelle: Yes.
[1:37] Daniel: Okay?
[1:37] Very true.
[1:37] I understand that.
[1:38] That is normal.
[1:39] But every single horse, regardless if you don't even know its name,
[1:43] needs to be treated properly.
[1:45] Mm-hmm.
[1:46] That's, that's all I'm saying.
[1:47] I, I, we, we don't have to go from one end- To the other end, right?
[1:51] You know, uh, uh, and that's where people get confused, you know?
[1:54] And it's not, the horse is not expecting you to know their name, take pictures of
[1:58] them, post them on social media, uh, you know, make videos, put it in your room.
[2:03] They don't care.
[2:03] Noelle: Well, they don't know.
[2:04] No,
[2:04] Daniel: they don't know- Yeah ... and they do not care.
[2:06] Noelle: Yeah.
[2:07] Daniel: All they want to be treated is with respect and empathy, you know, just
[2:12] like they will be treated in nature.
[2:15] You know, in nature, horses get kicked, horses get beat, horses, uh,
[2:19] uh, crash with each other, you know.
[2:24] Noelle: But there's an innate level of...
[2:27] Like, there's a balance in which... And they also have access to things like
[2:30] you're talking about, which I wanna... I love that you talked about turnout.
[2:35] Daniel: Yeah.
[2:36] Noelle: Because the fundamental, if you're talking about horses in nature-
[2:39] Yeah ... horses in nature have access to friends, forage, and freedom.
[2:42] The fundamental-
[2:43] Daniel: Yeah
[2:44] Noelle: needs.
[2:44] They, if you look at the prime fundamental needs from a science-backed, neuroscience,
[2:50] biological level, they need those three things just to be able to access- Live a
[2:59] healthy, balanced life ... Live, exactly.
[3:00] Yeah.
[3:01] And so I love to hear that someone at your level and at the center
[3:08] of, you know, show jumping in North America here in Wellington, you...
[3:12] I- and we're here at your place, and all the horses are outside.
[3:16] Daniel: Yeah, my horses are outside every day from 6:30 in the morning until
[3:20] they come, like, at 2:00 or something.
[3:22] Um, some of them actually, or multiple of them, go together out, you know,
[3:27] because, uh, because I think they enjoy it and, and because I, I've seen it with
[3:31] other riders that I respect a lot and asked my questions and overcame my own
[3:35] fears, my personal fears, and they do.
[3:38] Corby goes out with, with, with horses.
[3:40] Gemma goes out with horses.
[3:41] I mean, Ladriano went out.
[3:42] They... You know, so they do, you know?
[3:44] Sunshine and Ladriano retired together.
[3:46] They live together.
[3:47] That's amazing.
[3:47] You know, they're in one paddock together.
[3:48] And, and I believe in nature, you know?
[3:51] A- a- and, and, and you've said that before, and, you know, there's people I
[3:54] respect a lot that, that come out with the paddocks and all of this, and, and, and
[3:58] I mean, I could, could not voice it more.
[4:00] I mean, I think it's essential, but everyone does what everyone wants.
[4:04] That being said, I think there's the other side that also the community has
[4:08] to understand, and is that sometimes now we see nowadays people that because they
[4:13] lack the knowledge, they're criticizing or judging horsemen by the way that they work
[4:20] with their and interact with their horses.
[4:22] Mm-hmm.
[4:22] And this is also incorrect because horses are horses.
[4:27] You know, when you're training horses, you have to give very clear, um, directions-
[4:32] Mm-hmm ... just like the directions that they would get when they're living with
[4:35] each other in the turnout or outside.
[4:37] Yeah.
[4:37] You know?
[4:37] So before we go and, and, and criticize someone, we should
[4:43] first- We should do two things.
[4:45] First, we have to do, to learn ourselves how horses interact with
[4:48] each other and how they train each other, because horses train each other.
[4:51] Noelle: Absolutely.
[4:52] We
[4:52] Daniel: use horses sometimes to train another horse- Absolutely
[4:56] ... ourselves in our program.
[4:56] Noelle: Absolutely.
[4:57] So
[4:57] Daniel: we have to understand how the horses train each other, and we have
[5:00] to do a background check on the person that we're about to maybe criticize
[5:03] or cancel, as they say nowadays.
[5:06] Mm-hmm.
[5:06] Because things that you believe are incorrect out of ignorance
[5:11] don't make them incorrect.
[5:13] Mm. You know?
[5:14] So when you're training a horse, not everything is carrots, treats, and, and a
[5:19] pat on the, on the back and on the neck.
[5:21] That's not how horses work either.
[5:22] Noelle: No.
[5:24] Daniel: I love, and you're not going to find someone that is more
[5:26] obsessed with their horses than me.
[5:28] I love my horses.
[5:29] I mean, they're part of the family.
[5:31] They retire with us.
[5:32] They retire in our home.
[5:33] You know, my kids work, pet them.
[5:35] Sanchez still gets ridden by my kids.
[5:37] She's 20-something years old.
[5:39] I love my horses, but when I'm training and I'm working with the
[5:41] horses, my directions are clear.
[5:45] Because if we don't have good directions to the horses, they don't understand.
[5:49] Noelle: But I would argue that clarity is humanity, uh, for horses because-
[5:55] Of course ... clarity, it's ... I actually see more dysregulated
[5:58] horses in the world because they're confused, and they're not clear on
[6:02] what they're being asked than I do see when horses are given clear direction.
[6:08] Then there's a ... I would see, I would argue that I see more regulated
[6:12] horses when they have a clear and, and decisive rider on their back.
[6:17] Daniel: For sure.
[6:19] Uh, like I always said, with respect and empathy.
[6:22] Noelle: Yes.
[6:22] Daniel: With respect and empathy, but when you're training horses,
[6:26] you have to train horses.
[6:27] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[6:27] Daniel: You're not training a human being.
[6:29] Doesn't work.
[6:29] They're not gonna understand.
[6:30] Noelle: No.
[6:31] Daniel: You know, and you're going to be doing something that is bad for them.
[6:34] You know, I've see a lot of horses that end up becoming problematic horses because
[6:40] the people that were training them never recognized the fact they were horses.
[6:45] They were treat- And you mean
[6:46] Noelle: they were treated like- Humans ... a human being.
[6:48] Yeah.
[6:49] Daniel: Or like a- Yeah ... like a dog, like a pet.
[6:50] Yes.
[6:51] You know?
[6:51] And, and, and this is a disservice for the horse because then this horse
[6:54] ends up creating bad habits- Yes
[6:56] misbehaving, to the point that then the person can no longer ride it-
[7:01] Noelle: Yes
[7:01] ... Daniel: or work with it- Yes ... to the point that then the horse is
[7:04] discarded, ends up who knows where and working for who knows who.
[7:09] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:09] Daniel: And it wasn't the horse's fault to begin with, but it wasn't
[7:12] also the, the owner's fault.
[7:14] The owner just didn't know better.
[7:15] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[7:16] Daniel: So they both ended up hurting each other, and nobody
[7:20] really meant to hurt each other.
[7:21] It was just lack of, of, of kn- of, of, of knowledge, you
[7:25] know, of, of, of understanding.
[7:27] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:27] Daniel: So if there are some listeners or people that are listening to
[7:30] this, I encourage you, and I know that people from every level- Mm-hmm
[7:34] hear, hear your, your podcast Just learn about the horses.
[7:37] It's all out there.
[7:38] And nowadays, you can ask ChatGPT.
[7:40] I'm sorry, is it ChatGPT or is it GPT?
[7:42] Yeah, yeah.
[7:42] I always say it the wrong way.
[7:43] Yeah.
[7:44] But you, you ask the questions, and it throws you the answers.
[7:46] Everything is there.
[7:47] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:47] You
[7:47] Daniel: know, there's nothing that I'm saying here-
[7:50] Noelle: Information has never been more available than it is today
[7:52] is
[7:52] Daniel: totally available.
[7:53] Noelle: That's very true.
[7:53] Like,
[7:54] Daniel: you can study all of you want and understand all of these things.
[7:57] It's out there.
[7:57] Noelle: Yeah, it's very true.
[7:58] Daniel: So study and understand the horses.
[8:01] Then the, the more that you do, the better it's gonna be for you and for your horse.
[8:05] Noelle: And I would also say, too, that I think...
[8:07] 'Cause I, I, I understand where you're coming from, and I think what we- And
[8:12] I talk a lot about this with Dr. Steven Peters, who's an equine- Yeah ... one
[8:15] of our, one of our most reputable equine neuroscientists, and he talks regularly
[8:19] about anthropomorphization, which is when we insert human emotions on or we
[8:24] project human emotions onto horses, right?
[8:27] And we go, "Oh, my horse is sad," or, "My horse is..." You know, we, like,
[8:30] we really humanize their emotions.
[8:32] And I think Steve, who is, like, one of the biggest advocates of hu- of
[8:37] horse welfare in the industry from a science-backed point of view, he
[8:41] would tell you that, you know, a horse is a horse and a human is a human.
[8:44] It's really important not to mix them up.
[8:48] And I always say that when you start, when we start to get, and I'm guilty
[8:52] of it too, I think a lot of us are who really love horses, it's hard
[8:55] not to become really sentimental.
[8:56] Mm. And that that sentimentality can bleed into, um, you know, lack
[9:01] of boundaries with our horses- Mm
[9:03] or letting our horses have less clarity about what, what we want from them.
[9:08] And I think the best thing you can ever do is you can watch a mare with
[9:13] a foal, and you can get a really good read on how horses are very clear
[9:19] and decisive about the way that they train and communicate with each other.
[9:22] Yeah.
[9:22] Right?
[9:23] And that's so important, is if we want to be great horsemen or we wanna be great
[9:26] horsewomen, we must look to how horses live and exist and thrive with each other.
[9:33] Daniel: Yeah.
[9:33] Noelle: Which is why I love, like, I mean, the fact that you turn
[9:36] your horses out, and I mean, we've done work with Carl Hester as a big
[9:40] promo- promoter of Julio Mendoza.
[9:42] Like, these, there's wonderful advocates of turning horses out and also
[9:46] turning horses out with other horses.
[9:48] Because from a neuroscience point of view, your horses
[9:51] actually have a healthier brain.
[9:53] Daniel: Yeah.
[9:53] Noelle: Which is, and you know, and sometimes I worry that the top of
[9:56] the sport doesn't actually know the science sometimes about those horses
[10:00] are gonna have, they're going to have a fundamentally healthier neurochemistry,
[10:06] which means they're gonna be able to be thinking horses much easier- Yeah
[10:11] than they would be if they were socially isolated.
[10:13] Daniel: Yeah.
[10:14] I mean, I totally agree, and I, and I'm happy that, you know... And, and
[10:17] you've, you know how to articulate those things scientifically game-
[10:21] scientifically much better than me.
[10:23] I've, I, I started reading about it after I was doing it already.
[10:27] Noelle: Yeah.
[10:28] You
[10:28] Daniel: know?
[10:28] Because to me, it always made sense, you know?
[10:31] Like, and, and I understood the- there were risks and everything, but
[10:34] I, it, it just made me feel better.
[10:35] For me, I guess maybe that's my natural instinct and my feeling
[10:38] and maybe a God-given, uh, talent or whatever you want, but that's
[10:43] something that for me just I felt that it was, it was what was right.
[10:47] Now, when you start, um, studying it, then you understand why it's
[10:52] right, you know, and, and why we, we have to, we have to do it, you know?
[10:56] And I think that's one very simple step.
[10:58] The turning out of horses I think is just, just so important, you know?
[11:01] It's, I cannot say it enough times, you know?
[11:04] I think it's important.
[11:05] I'm not saying everyone- Can have huge fields.
[11:09] I mean, the, the, the... I understand time, there's restrictions in
[11:12] time, there's restrictions in, in, in land, you know, in, in space.
[11:17] But we have to do the best we can, you know, with what we, with what we have.
[11:21] But for the horses, it's, I think it's, it's just really important.
[11:24] It's part, it's part of their routine.
[11:26] Noelle: I was actually watching, I'd be curious what you think about this.
[11:28] So I was watching the Nations Cup at, in Ocala, and I was thinking about
[11:33] my podcast that I did with Dr. Dennis Brooks, who's like d- like, he's like
[11:38] the godfather of equine ophthalmology.
[11:40] So he can tell y- like, he's innovated, he's an innovator when
[11:44] it comes to the way that horses see.
[11:46] Daniel: Yeah.
[11:46] Noelle: And s- Dr. Stephen Peters and Dr. Dennis Brooks will tell you
[11:50] that a h- a horse that is stalled in a stall all the time will actually,
[11:54] like, lose optimal eyesight.
[11:56] Daniel: Yeah.
[11:57] That
[11:57] Noelle: there are actually horses are meant to see on the horizon,
[12:00] and the more stalled they are, the less capable they are of seeing.
[12:03] Yeah.
[12:03] And then I was watching, so I was thinking, okay, you already have
[12:06] to, you, you really want to optimize your horse's sight, especially if
[12:09] you're a competitive show jumper.
[12:10] And then I was also looking at, there was this huge shadow.
[12:13] Did you see that?
[12:14] Yeah.
[12:14] For the, for the Nations Cup.
[12:16] And I was watching people warming up inside, and then they would go
[12:19] outside, and then they would go into this arena that had this huge shadow.
[12:22] Huge shadow.
[12:22] And it had this huge shadow going, like, comp- v- like, really
[12:26] poorly placed for the water.
[12:28] Yeah.
[12:28] And there were a lot of problems.
[12:29] Problems, yeah.
[12:29] And I was thinking, if you look at, and this is why it's so important
[12:33] that, you know, I r- I recognize a lot of horsemanship is actually
[12:37] already here, and science is catching up to be able to prove- Yeah
[12:40] why we do what we do.
[12:41] Exactly.
[12:42] But when I ask- Because
[12:43] Daniel: we have inherited these practices from past generations,
[12:46] and now science is coming and, and, and telling us why is, this works.
[12:49] Noelle: Exactly, which is important.
[12:50] I do think- We already know
[12:51] Daniel: it works- ... but now they're telling us why it works, which is great.
[12:53] Which is great.
[12:54] It validates.
[12:54] It's,
[12:55] Noelle: it's very validating, I think, for people, and then it,
[12:57] it allows everyone who's doing it right to stand up and say, "Hey-
[13:00] Daniel: Yeah
[13:00] ... Noelle: we, we've done this for generations, and now we have all
[13:03] the research to back it." Yeah.
[13:05] But I was thinking in that moment, from an equine ophthalmology point of view, I was
[13:09] like, this is already a difficult track.
[13:11] And then I was thinking, if those horses have, you know, like, if those horses have
[13:16] compromised eyesight, and then you add the additional, it takes, it can take between
[13:20] 10 to 15 minutes for a horse's eyesight to adjust from the inside to the outside.
[13:25] Yeah.
[13:25] Like, it takes that long.
[13:27] It takes a lot longer than our eyes to adjust.
[13:29] Yeah.
[13:29] But because our eyes adjust, we think, "Oh, the horses
[13:32] can see." Can adjust, yeah.
[13:33] But they can't.
[13:34] Yeah.
[13:34] And so I think that it's so important, and I've heard, and we talk about farming
[13:40] families, and you talk about, you know, like, and then we're gonna t- like, I
[13:43] wanna reference that a little bit because it's, it's so interesting that you found
[13:47] that as well, that the really good horse families are the, the f- the, the ones
[13:50] that really approach the sport as farmers.
[13:52] Yeah.
[13:53] And that mentality, um, I do think it's really important that
[13:57] we think about all these aspects.
[13:59] It's the horse's life- Not just when you're on their back, it's
[14:03] the 360 degrees of their life
[14:05] Daniel: Of course.
[14:06] Of course Right?
[14:07] I, I think that's very important.
[14:08] A- and to that point also comes into, you know, working outside.
[14:12] You know, I love working outside.
[14:13] I spend most of my rides with the horses outside.
[14:15] You know, like, working all the time in the same ring, you
[14:18] know, in the same rectangles and whatever, it becomes boring.
[14:22] And, and, and, and your horse, first of all, doesn't enjoy it as much.
[14:25] For us, it's not as enjoyable because there's not- nothing
[14:27] better than being outside.
[14:29] And, and then you're also not training your horse to the
[14:33] maximum potential, you know?
[14:34] When horses know how to work outside, and there's birds, and there's in...
[14:37] Even here, we got alligators and ducks- ... and all kinds of birds and-
[14:40] Noelle: Yeah
[14:41] ... Daniel: and animals and stuff.
[14:42] In New York, we have deer.
[14:43] We have, you know, we have, uh, some, some even, sometimes we even see bears.
[14:47] You know, we see all kinds of stuff.
[14:48] This is good for them, you know, for them to be able to adapt to
[14:51] the different environment, and yet be focused and trusting you.
[14:55] You know?
[14:56] So I think that the more natural you keep it and, and the more, uh, creative you
[15:01] get and, and, and try to do what others were doing many years ago and still today,
[15:06] in the case of some of these families like you were mentioning, the b- first of
[15:10] all, the experience is gonna be more fun.
[15:12] And second of all, it's gonna make your horse a better sport horse-
[15:15] Yeah ... which at the end is, you know, it goes hand by hand.
[15:17] You want to be able to do both.
[15:19] That being said, you know, all of these things that we're talking about here
[15:24] need to be done with horse knowledge.
[15:26] Noelle: Yes.
[15:27] Daniel: You know?
[15:27] Like, it's not like, "Oh, I don't turn my horse out, so tomorrow I'm gonna turn
[15:30] it out," and then you put it on a field.
[15:31] No.
[15:32] You know, like, you need to know what you're doing.
[15:35] You need to get there, you know?
[15:37] Like, if a horse never been outside, hasn't been outside in a long time,
[15:40] you wanna start first in an environment that it's controlled, you know,
[15:44] that, that's not so big, you know, and let him ease into it, you know?
[15:48] Yes.
[15:48] And then little bigger and then little bigger, and then eventually
[15:50] turn him out whenever you want.
[15:51] Some horses truly don't wanna be in a field that is too big.
[15:54] They wanna see some limits because they're very nervous, especially
[15:57] if you turn them out alone.
[15:59] Alone.
[15:59] You know?
[16:00] So you have to understand your horses.
[16:02] Same when I say go out and, and work on the trails and stuff.
[16:05] Ease into it.
[16:06] Yeah.
[16:06] You know, if you go and you've never gone it, and you suddenly
[16:09] go and the horse spooks, you fall, the horse is running, and then, you
[16:12] know, you heard the wrong advice.
[16:13] Noelle: Yeah.
[16:14] Daniel: You want to get to that point.
[16:16] But to get to that point, you have to know the horse, you need to take
[16:19] your time, and you need to work with professionals who know what they're doing
[16:22] so you can get to that point, you know?
[16:25] So that, that is just something that, that maybe in the community starts to
[16:31] lack because obviously, like, there's less horsemen than there were before.
[16:35] Mm-hmm.
[16:36] So a lot of the things that are happening and people are being taught by
[16:38] professionals that are not real horsemen.
[16:41] Mm-hmm.
[16:41] You know?
[16:41] So then all of these things start to happen, you know?
[16:45] So, so everything that, that people discuss and everything that you read and
[16:50] everything that you can get access to now with the internet and everything,
[16:53] you still have to make sure you follow with a proper professional- Yeah
[16:58] and horseman, you know?
[16:59] Because- You don't wanna get hurt, you don't want your horse to get hurt,
[17:03] and, and, and we can avoid accidents that are many times unnecessary.
[17:08] So i- i- it is very complex, like we said at the beginning.
[17:11] You know?
[17:11] This whole- It's like it's
[17:11] Noelle: simple.
[17:12] In some ways, like, the, the right things are simple, but it's also complex.
[17:15] Daniel: It is very simple once you know it.
[17:18] Noelle: Yeah.
[17:19] Daniel: And you feel it and you live with it, then it's super simple.
[17:21] It's like, yeah, whatever.
[17:22] I mean, that's, like, obvious.
[17:24] off: Yeah.
[17:25] Daniel: But it isn't obvious.
[17:26] It's complex.
[17:27] For us that didn't grow up with horse family or horse knowledge, and we've
[17:33] had to live the process to get here-
[17:35] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[17:36] Daniel: it's very complex.
[17:37] Noelle: Yeah.
[17:38] Daniel: I'm sure that for my son-
[17:40] Noelle: It'll be ... it's gonna be
[17:40] Daniel: obvious.
[17:42] Because it's obvious.
[17:43] He- it's what he's seen since he was young, you know, since he was little.
[17:46] So for him, those things are obvious.
[17:48] But it's not obvious, you know?
[17:50] Noelle: Well, and it's, it's so interesting because I think before
[17:53] we pressed record, I was saying that this is what I find so funny
[17:56] knowing, you know, you know the Whitaker, I know the Whitaker.
[17:58] They're the greatest, they're a wonderful example of how, you
[18:03] know, good horsemanship is just s- they're just like, it's simple.
[18:05] Yeah.
[18:05] Everything is simple.
[18:07] And so when you're talking to them, whenever I have them in
[18:09] front of me in an interview or whether I'm working with them, I'm
[18:12] always like, "Okay, I have to..."
[18:14] One of the biggest challenges is being able to glean out all of the things that
[18:18] are so obvious to them- Yeah ... but are not necessarily obvious to everybody else.
[18:23] Yeah.
[18:23] Right?
[18:23] Because they have- It's- ... generations of... And they
[18:25] come from a farming background.
[18:27] Yeah.
[18:27] So they, like, and even, you know, it's so funny that Jack and his, he'll describe
[18:32] his family, like, "We're just farmers.
[18:34] We just ride horses now." Yeah.
[18:35] "But we still have such a farming mentality about the way we keep horses
[18:38] and the way we work with each other and how everyone shows up on, on the yard."
[18:43] And it's actually funny because one of the things, so when you're talking
[18:46] about easing into horses, turning out, for example, or doing something
[18:50] like being out in the world and being outside more, it's interesting 'cause
[18:53] immediately that, what comes up for me is, um, predictability is one of, one of
[18:59] the key, uh, dopamine hacks for horses.
[19:01] Yeah.
[19:02] So dopamine is a really important, it's a really important, um, compound
[19:06] for our horses and for us, right?
[19:08] And so predictability is one of the things that we w- that's required
[19:13] for horses to stay regulated.
[19:15] It's like one of... And what's interesting is when you look at yards that are run
[19:19] by farming families or who take a farming mentality, everything is very predictable.
[19:24] The schedule is, like, very precise.
[19:27] Yeah.
[19:27] Horses are turned out for the same amount of time.
[19:30] They're eased into it.
[19:31] So what I see, which again, science is catching up to, is I see management
[19:36] of horses with a, with a tremendous consideration for their nervous system.
[19:41] Daniel: Yeah.
[19:42] Noelle: Right?
[19:42] You're not seeing these huge spikes in cortisol.
[19:44] You're not seeing s- huge stress hormones.
[19:46] You're seeing a lot of consideration for horses to remain in- The
[19:52] parasympathetic- Yeah ... rest and digest.
[19:54] You're not gonna get as much issues of colic.
[19:56] Yeah.
[19:56] You're gonna have a happy horse.
[19:58] You know, it's like, it's amazing how the science is catching up-
[20:01] For sure ... to how old families have been doing this forever.
[20:04] Daniel: Yeah.
[20:05] Noelle: Right?
[20:05] And,
[20:05] Daniel: and, and at the end, and for them, and it then applies for me now in
[20:09] the, in, in a more personal thing, you know, routine is so important for horses,
[20:14] and routine is so important for Daniel.
[20:16] I mean, I'm telling you.
[20:18] My routine, like, you know, I, I can become, and I can start
[20:23] losing my control over, over my head and my, my, my peace within.
[20:27] off: Yeah.
[20:28] Daniel: You know?
[20:28] And, and I identify a lot with the horses in that respect, you know?
[20:31] Routine's just so healthy for them, and just like it is
[20:34] so healthy for me, you know?
[20:35] And you start creating routines for these horses when at home and when outside
[20:40] the home, uh, uh, you know, when you leave, how they travel, how they arrive
[20:44] to the show, how you work them at the show, when you work them at the show.
[20:48] And all of these routines create, um, peace within, like you say,
[20:53] health, which is very important.
[20:54] I mean, knock on wood, I, I, I think that when you look at some of
[20:58] the best horsemen, the careers of their horses last for many years.
[21:01] Yes.
[21:02] The horses are very healthy.
[21:03] When they have injuries, like any athlete can have an injury,
[21:06] they normally come back.
[21:08] Noelle: Yeah.
[21:08] Daniel: You know, it's not like a career-ending injury
[21:11] nowadays with those horsemen.
[21:13] They find the ways, you know, or we find the ways to bring those horses back
[21:17] with the time and the help of the vets.
[21:19] And so at, at the end, you know, being a horseman is so rewarding in so many ways,
[21:27] and I'm gonna even touch a different part of it, the, the economics of it, okay?
[21:31] I'm so
[21:31] Noelle: glad you talked about, yeah.
[21:32] Daniel: Because obviously we need to make a, a living.
[21:35] I mean, you like horses?
[21:37] Yeah, that's great.
[21:38] And young kids say, "I wanna be a rider. I wanna be something with the
[21:41] horses," and that also is very beautiful.
[21:43] The fact is that we're not 18 forever.
[21:45] We end up growing up.
[21:46] We need to then eventually wanna have a house or an apartment, or
[21:49] we need to own a car, and then eventually maybe we wanna get married.
[21:52] Maybe we wanna have kids.
[21:53] You know, life happens, and life is expensive.
[21:55] off: Yes.
[21:56] Daniel: You know?
[21:56] And we need to make a living somehow.
[21:58] Well, I'm always going to say to anybody that a good horseman is always m- gonna
[22:05] make a better living than a good rider.
[22:09] Always.
[22:10] First of all, because they're scarce, so that makes huge difference.
[22:14] You know, there's more good riders than there is good horsemen.
[22:16] off: Mm-hmm.
[22:17] Daniel: So it's a better commodity to be a good horseman than to be a good rider.
[22:21] And every single barn, regardless of level that the owner is competing
[22:27] or whatever, needs horsemen.
[22:29] So horsemen are always gonna be well remunerated.
[22:34] I said earlier in our chat, there's a big amount, big number of horsemen that
[22:40] I know that I have huge respect for.
[22:44] I like them also a lot as friends because we identify with many things.
[22:49] They make a great life
[22:50] Noelle: Yeah
[22:51] Daniel: They earn a lot of money per year.
[22:53] They do great in our industry, in our business.
[22:56] Never competed in a Grand Prix.
[22:58] Never compete in a Grand Prix.
[22:59] Many of them, they jump past 1 meter 40.
[23:02] Many of them didn't even get to compete because they didn't have the resources
[23:05] when they were young to compete.
[23:06] Noelle: But that doesn't, that's not a reflection of their ability.
[23:09] Daniel: No, not at all.
[23:11] They're horsemen.
[23:12] Kimmy, you want those people around.
[23:14] You want them to be in the barn when something happens.
[23:16] You want them to be in the barn when you're working with a horse.
[23:18] You want them to be in the barn when you're developing a young horse.
[23:21] You want them to be in the barn when a horse is sick.
[23:23] You want them to be in the barn when a horse just arrived.
[23:25] You want them to be in the barn when the horse is about to leave.
[23:27] You want them to be in the truck when the horse got sick or is not feeling well.
[23:31] You want them to be in the, in the truck when the horse is traveling far
[23:34] or he's going in the airplane, and I can give you a million examples.
[23:37] This is the people you want to be there so that you're not stuck to
[23:40] your phone in alert and panicking.
[23:43] So these people are indispensable in our industry.
[23:47] Make yourself indispensable.
[23:48] Become a horseman.
[23:49] You become a horseman, you're gonna have a good life.
[23:51] If you were able to become a horseman and on top of that, things happened,
[23:57] and you ended up being able to be also a good rider, a successful rider, and you
[24:00] ended up also being a good entrepreneur because now you also have to be that-
[24:03] off: Yeah
[24:04] Daniel: this industry is so complex, then you might just end up being one of
[24:07] the best riders in the world ranking.
[24:10] You know, because the best riders in the world ranking don't
[24:13] necessarily mean that they were the best riders or the best horsemen.
[24:17] Mm. Many things have to happen, you know, in order to get, in order to get there.
[24:21] But the number one thing that is going to at least secure your life
[24:25] in this industry is horsemanship.
[24:27] Become a good horseman, and then that already is an insurance.
[24:30] Anything that happens after that, you know that you're gonna have a good life in
[24:34] this industry, which we're very lucky for.
[24:36] Noelle: Yeah.
[24:37] It is, like, one of the
[24:38] I mean, we're biased, but I would say, like, if you can work in the horse
[24:41] world, it's like the, the greatest life-
[24:44] Daniel: In so many ways
[24:45] ... Noelle: in so many ways.
[24:46] Look how
[24:47] Daniel: we grew.
[24:47] You know, because of the influx of resources and money and,
[24:50] you know, all these different things, you can make a great life-
[24:54] off: Mm
[24:54] ... Daniel: out of being in this industry.
[24:56] You can make money.
[24:58] You can own a place.
[24:59] You can be in beautiful places.
[25:01] You can be obviously doing what you love.
[25:03] You know, so there's so many great possibilities because
[25:06] the industry grew so much.
[25:08] Noelle: Yeah.
[25:09] Daniel: Many years ago, we could say there were many great things, but you could have
[25:12] been a great horseman and have no money.
[25:14] Noelle: Yeah, it's true.
[25:15] It's true.
[25:16] Daniel: None.
[25:16] Noelle: Oh, there are some of the greatest horsemen that have been, horsewomen that
[25:20] have been referenced in this podcast, they ... like, they left this world, or they passed
[25:26] with very little money to their name.
[25:28] off: Exactly.
[25:28] And
[25:29] Noelle: they're referenced in books.
[25:30] They wrote books.
[25:31] They are like, some of them are the godfathers of the
[25:33] way we do things with horses.
[25:34] Exactly.
[25:35] And they, they, they left the world with very little- Exactly ... economically.
[25:40] So
[25:40] Daniel: we're in a great situation.
[25:41] Noelle: Yeah
[25:43] Daniel: In some aspects
[25:44] Noelle: In some aspects, yes
[25:45] Daniel: In some aspects we're not.
[25:46] In some aspects we're facing intersections where deci- decisions need to be made.
[25:51] But, I mean, okay, I'm an, uh, I'm an optimist by nature anyways.
[25:55] I think we're in a great place.
[25:56] Yeah I think we just have to continue to educate people the right way, especially
[26:01] younger generations, and make sure that we give the recognition to the
[26:06] people that deserve the recognition.
[26:08] Noelle: Mm. I'm glad you said that because I think it's like, how can we...
[26:13] Because the direction of the industry is a, is a contribution of a m- of
[26:17] a million, trillion different micro decisions made by tons of different
[26:21] people all at the same time, right?
[26:23] Yeah.
[26:23] Like, it's not, I think it's, it's incorrect to believe that a group of
[26:30] people in a room somewhere will determine the trajectory of the industry as a whole.
[26:36] Daniel: Yeah.
[26:36] Noelle: However, there are obviously, there are a lot of influencing factors.
[26:41] Mm-hmm One of which is the representation of the industry.
[26:43] The second is, I think, you know, now because of social media and because
[26:48] of the media attention of horse sport, social license has become a topic.
[26:54] Yeah I think if you had asked riders 20 years ago whether
[26:57] riders in the 21st century would be discussing social license-
[27:02] Daniel: Yeah
[27:03] ... Noelle: to, to f- to, to exist, they would be shocked, right?
[27:06] Yeah Because horses have been such a big part of our history as
[27:10] a species since time immemorial.
[27:12] off: Yeah
[27:12] Noelle: But I think we do have a responsibility, and that's where I'm
[27:16] really gla- I feel, I feel like as we wrap up this episode, I really want you
[27:20] to speak to this, this responsibility we have, and in the social media age,
[27:27] is how are we representing ourselves and what are we really valuing in
[27:32] people as representatives of the sport?
[27:35] Like, you're an ambassador for the sport, I'm an ambassador for the sport.
[27:38] How we move, I think we're, I think people, I worry that people think that
[27:43] the way they live their life is not a rep- representation of the sport, but it is.
[27:47] Yeah Because you talk about who we are behind closed doors is who we are
[27:52] when all the, all the lights and the cameras are o- on you as a rider, right?
[27:56] It's who, it's what you do in when no one's looking- Yeah ... that
[28:00] actually defines you as a horseman.
[28:02] But I would say that a lot of the environment that we live
[28:04] in would tell you the opposite.
[28:09] Daniel: Yeah, and, and that's not even a, that's not even a horse problem.
[28:13] I mean, that's a, that's- Human problem ... that's a human problem.
[28:15] You know, social media and the recognition and validation, uh,
[28:20] has become a, a, a, an epidemic.
[28:23] Noelle: Yes.
[28:24] Daniel: It's, it's a, it's a serious problem.
[28:27] So the first thing that I would say is I cannot tell you, "Don't, don't,
[28:32] don't think about it or totally ignore it," because that's a lie.
[28:36] off: Mm-hmm.
[28:37] Daniel: Most likely, most people are not gonna be able to do that, me included.
[28:40] Mm-hmm.
[28:42] Let's manage it, you know?
[28:43] Let's manage how much recognition we're expecting to get.
[28:48] Let's manage how much validation we're expecting to get.
[28:52] Let's manage how affected we can be by the lack or the excess
[28:59] of validation or recognition.
[29:02] And let's understand that at the very, very, very end, on the essence of life,
[29:09] that recognition, that validation, social media and, and all the rest mean nothing.
[29:16] So i- so keep very present that part.
[29:21] That being said, we do, as ambassadors of the sport, because we're working
[29:27] with animals and with everything that is happening in the canceling culture and all
[29:30] this kind of stuff, have to be aware, I wouldn't say careful, I would say aware-
[29:35] off: Yeah
[29:36] ... Daniel: that everything that you put online could be misrepresented.
[29:42] It could create an issue.
[29:45] It could backfire on us- Mm-hmm ... and end up making people that do not
[29:50] understand our industry judge us very harshly without the understanding
[29:56] and the full picture to judge us.
[30:00] So we have to be careful what we are trying to represent when we ourselves
[30:06] are sharing anything in social media or anything like that, so that it's a very
[30:11] clear message of what we're trying to say.
[30:13] That on us.
[30:15] And maybe on the media, and for the people that, that, that, you know,
[30:20] that sort of make things viral and, you know, share a lot of context and
[30:23] whatnot, be careful what you're trying to, to, to, to validate or recognize.
[30:30] off: Mm.
[30:30] Daniel: You know?
[30:30] Because if the recognition is always going to come from the result, you know,
[30:37] from, from the winning, the picture with the cooler and, you know, whatever you
[30:41] won or you didn't win, then you're really missing out on the most important part.
[30:46] You know?
[30:46] The cool part is our lifestyle.
[30:48] That is what's cool.
[30:50] That is what's beautiful.
[30:52] What we're able to do with these horses, with our teams, you know, we have
[30:56] beautiful places where we work out of.
[30:59] We travel the world to some other beautiful places.
[31:02] We travel the world to some other beautiful farms, you know- Mm
[31:05] and, and, and to some other beautiful, uh, facilities of other people that
[31:10] do what we do and love it the way we, we do in different continents and
[31:14] areas of the world, and that's magical because each area has its charm.
[31:19] Noelle: Yeah.
[31:20] Daniel: So let's try maybe to post about that, you know?
[31:23] You wanna share that, share that, you know?
[31:25] But if all you're sharing and all you're commenting and all you're recognizing is
[31:30] the blue ribbon or the, the win or all these things, you're really missing out.
[31:35] Because to get to that, there's so many great things that happened before-
[31:40] off: Mm
[31:40] ... Daniel: that really Make that special, you know?
[31:43] So, uh, you know, the combination of education, of working together as a
[31:48] community, of crossing our fingers hoping that we get lucky and we make
[31:53] more good decisions than bad ones, is going to determine where the industry
[31:58] is 20 years from now, you know.
[32:00] So I'm an optim- I, I'm an optimistic type of person, so I think that
[32:03] we're gonna be in a great place.
[32:05] And, and I, and I will try to do my share just like you do yours
[32:10] so that we get to that point.
[32:12] This
[32:13] Noelle: is something that I think everyone's gonna feel.
[32:15] I have a s- I have a sense that at the ... After everyone listens to this
[32:19] episode, they're gonna feel a little bit more validated in their own journey.
[32:23] Because one thing I've learned having traveled, like I took my horses and
[32:27] traveled 25,000 miles last year, traveling and riding with different types of people
[32:32] from, in diff- from different corners of the horse world to really understand the
[32:36] universal threads that connect us, right?
[32:39] What do you have in common with a rancher- Yeah
[32:41] you know?
[32:42] Or, um, you know, Buck Brannaman in- Yeah ... Wyoming.
[32:46] There's a lot that you have in common.
[32:47] That's really cool.
[32:47] Daniel: You're so lucky to be able to Yeah ... have done that.
[32:48] It was an amazing
[32:49] Noelle: experience.
[32:49] And one thing I will tell you, and I can tell you with so much certainty, is that
[32:55] magic happens between horses and humans, like, all over the world every day.
[33:01] Daniel: Yeah.
[33:02] Noelle: And that there are great horsemen and great horsewomen, and, like, that's
[33:06] what was so exciting for me to talk to you because when I realized that you
[33:09] and I shared this belief, that there are great horsewomen and horsemen all over
[33:14] the world, and many of them, majority of them will never be recognized.
[33:20] off: Yeah.
[33:20] Noelle: And, but that's also what makes them great, is that- Yeah ... they
[33:23] don't care to be recognized, that they're doing it for the right reasons.
[33:27] And I really want everyone in the horse industry to hear that.
[33:30] Yeah.
[33:31] To say, like, you can be great, and you don't need to be Instagram famous
[33:35] or winning a whole bunch of Grand Prix money or be a professional.
[33:40] Like, you can be a really talented, wonderful horseman
[33:44] and never have that, like,
[33:49] community acknowledgement- Yeah ... maybe the way that someone else might.
[33:53] And I can, and I'm sure, like, the both of us would say, like, we can,
[33:56] you can understand how that might be frustrating for some people.
[33:59] But I think that for time immemorial, that's been happening.
[34:03] No one in the history of humans and horses, no one was running around with a
[34:07] camera- Yeah ... acknowledging that magic.
[34:11] A-
[34:11] Daniel: a- and at the, at the, at the very end anyways, most people in the
[34:15] world, regardless of what they do or they don't do, are not gonna be recognized.
[34:18] Yeah.
[34:18] So, so let's start by that.
[34:19] off: Right.
[34:19] You know?
[34:20] Daniel: And even the ones that get recognized get recognized
[34:22] today and not recognized tomorrow.
[34:24] off: Right.
[34:24] Daniel: So at the very end, recognition doesn't mean a great much, you know.
[34:28] Because you're a hero today, and you're a monster tomorrow or the other way
[34:31] around, and you know, everything else.
[34:32] So who you want to be recognized by, if at all, is your close
[34:37] friends and your family That's it.
[34:40] People that really know you.
[34:42] If you are in the horse world and you own horses and you work with horses,
[34:47] you have exponentially increased your chances of living a happy, balanced life.
[34:51] So begin with that.
[34:52] Noelle: Yeah.
[34:52] You know?
[34:52] Daniel: That already is a win.
[34:53] Like you're
[34:53] Noelle: already winning.
[34:54] That is
[34:54] Daniel: a win.
[34:55] Yeah.
[34:55] You're already winning.
[34:56] If you pass to a point that you actually become a horsewoman or a horseman, you're
[35:00] now really winning because now you're really spending time doing something
[35:04] great, sharing an exchange of energy with an animal that is absolutely majestic.
[35:10] And on top of that, you're going to start building a small community around you of
[35:13] other people that love what you love, that are also horsemen or horsewomen, that are
[35:17] going to just make it that much more fun.
[35:19] So there's no losing here.
[35:21] off: Mm-hmm.
[35:22] It,
[35:22] Daniel: it's only positive.
[35:23] Only positive and positive stuff as long as you're looking at it the right way.
[35:28] Again, people want recognition, people want validation, all that
[35:31] kind of stuff, and it's okay.
[35:32] We just have to manage it.
[35:34] We just have to understand that that's not really what's important.
[35:37] It doesn't matter.
[35:39] Noelle: Amen.
[35:40] I couldn't put it better myself.
[35:42] You can go, Chris.
[35:45] Okay.
[35:46] So as we wrap up... Wait, I'll, I'll say, you good?
[35:50] Did you clear your throat?
[35:50] You okay?
[35:51] Okay.
[35:52] So as we wrap up, I am ex- so excited to hear your questions or to hear your
[35:59] answers to the questions that I have for every guest that comes on this podcast.
[36:04] If you could read one book to the horse world, what would it be?
[36:08] Daniel: Oof.
[36:10] One book to the horse world.
[36:13] Um,
[36:17] one book to the horse world.
[36:19] Let me think because I wanna make sure that I tell you one that
[36:23] really had a huge impact on me.
[36:26] Hmm.
[36:26] I wanna tell you one actually, because you've, you've already had
[36:29] by some guests tell you some that like a lot, the Peter Frickson one-
[36:31] Yeah ... I thought it was great.
[36:32] Yeah.
[36:33] You heard it before.
[36:33] But there's one that most people haven't read, maybe most people don't even know
[36:37] it exists, but I think it's fantastic.
[36:39] It's the one by Margie Engle.
[36:40] Ah.
[36:41] Margie Engle has a book that her mom wrote, may she rest in peace, her mom.
[36:47] It's called No Hurdle Too High.
[36:51] Noelle: Okay.
[36:52] Daniel: I read it when I was in sixth grade, and it's the story
[36:54] of Margie Engle pretty much told by her mother up to that point.
[36:59] So in sixth grade I was, that's 2001.
[37:02] off: Mm-hmm.
[37:04] Daniel: I think that book is fantastic.
[37:06] I think it shows you how the dreams of a horse girl, horsewoman, and passion of the
[37:13] sport came to be true against adversity, and I think it's a really fulfilling book.
[37:23] You know, when, when you finish reading it, um, you feel good
[37:26] about yourself, you know?
[37:28] I think, and I think it's a book that anybody regardless of their level, and
[37:32] I'm talking anybody regardless of any level, will appreciate Sixth grade, I
[37:38] was just a nerd kid that loved horses.
[37:40] I knew nothing, had done nothing- Mm-hmm ... but I loved horses.
[37:44] And I was, I mean, I read that book, and I absolutely loved it.
[37:50] So there you go.
[37:52] And if you haven't read it, you should read it yourself.
[37:53] Noelle: I'm gonna, now I'm gonna I mean, I
[37:55] Daniel: don't even know how you can get a copy nowadays, but
[37:56] I'm sure if not, ask Margie.
[37:58] She for sure- Okay ... has to have a copy.
[37:59] I'll
[37:59] Noelle: ask Margie.
[38:01] Who is the most iconic horse in history?
[38:04] Daniel: Oof.
[38:06] Yeah.
[38:07] That's really difficult to say.
[38:09] I really cannot tell you one.
[38:11] I honestly could not, I could not choose one.
[38:14] I, it would be c- a complete un- it would be just so unfair to so many
[38:18] that I decline to answer that question.
[38:20] Noelle: I love that for you.
[38:22] Okay.
[38:23] Most undervalued skill as a rider.
[38:30] Daniel: Empathy.
[38:31] Noelle: Mm. Who is the greatest horseman or horsewoman in history?
[38:38] Daniel: I decline to answer that question.
[38:40] It would be to- again, totally unfair.
[38:43] It would be, uh, I mean, I've had the influence of, of some great ones, but
[38:47] I've also read about some other great ones and met some other great ones for sure.
[38:51] I w- I will not mention one, but I can tell you that, uh, that
[38:55] there's, there's a, a good many- Yeah
[38:57] incredible horsemen.
[38:59] Noelle: You know, I'll add to that answer, 'cause I lo- You okay?
[39:03] Yeah.
[39:05] I'll add to that answer, 'cause I love that answer.
[39:08] And I'm not mad about that answer.
[39:09] Yeah.
[39:09] I actually love that answer.
[39:11] Um, and the other one that I love is we'll never know.
[39:16] off: Yeah.
[39:16] Noelle: That the greatest horseman or the greatest horsewoman out there is
[39:21] in the far reaches of some place just doing what they do with horses, and
[39:27] they will never be known, and they will never be acknowledged like we talked
[39:31] about, and it will, they will just...
[39:34] And because they're just doing, they're experiencing magic every
[39:37] day, and, and that's enough.
[39:38] Daniel: A- and not only that, every great horseman has had a mentor or mentors.
[39:42] Mentors, not one, many mentors.
[39:44] Noelle: Yes.
[39:44] Daniel: And those mentors had mentors, and those mentors had mentors.
[39:48] So then who is the greatest horseman?
[39:49] Noelle: Exactly.
[39:50] I love that.
[39:52] Mm. The like, it's like the tree of knowledge.
[39:54] Of course.
[39:55] Mm. That's passed
[39:55] Daniel: generation to generation.
[39:56] So who is the best horseman?
[39:58] You know, I've met some cowboys, some ranchers.
[40:01] I've met people around the world that are incredible horsemen.
[40:05] You know, they, someone taught them.
[40:06] off: True.
[40:07] Now, I
[40:07] Daniel: haven't had the chance to work in the native communities
[40:09] of, of, of North America.
[40:11] off: Yeah.
[40:12] Daniel: And, um, I'm sure that those guys have some incredible
[40:15] horse sense and knowledge.
[40:16] They also work with horses in different methods than us, so.
[40:19] Yeah.
[40:19] And the world has a lot of great horsemen.
[40:21] Noelle: They do.
[40:22] And final question, and I'm very interested to know your answer to
[40:26] this, mares, stallions, or gelding?
[40:30] Daniel: You know, th- that's a complete personal preference.
[40:33] Yeah.
[40:33] I'm gonna tell you my personal preference is mares.
[40:35] Mm-hmm.
[40:35] It's just a personal preference.
[40:37] Um, I just really have always enjoyed very much working with the mares.
[40:41] Um, it's just something about their personality and, and just the way
[40:46] that they're wired that, that I've, I've grown to, to understand very,
[40:51] very well, and to respect very much.
[40:56] And, and because of that understanding and how well we've done together,
[41:00] uh, that would be my preference.
[41:02] Uh, that being said, you know, I'm always open to learn, especially more about
[41:08] the stallions, because I don't have enough knowledge about the stallions.
[41:11] So I wouldn't say that I don't like them because I don't like them.
[41:13] I don't like them because I don't understand them quite as well.
[41:17] Mm-hmm.
[41:17] Just because I haven't had enough interaction with them.
[41:20] And when it comes to geldings, you're always safe.
[41:22] Yeah.
[41:22] You know?
[41:22] A g- a g- a great gelding is a great gelding and, and geldings are just, out
[41:27] of the three, for sure the easiest- Yeah
[41:29] uh, to work with.
[41:31] But I would pick the mare just because I like that edge that the
[41:34] good mare gives me, which the stallion cannot give me because I'm ignorant.
[41:37] Mm. I don't know enough how to work with them because I haven't been exposed
[41:42] to as many as I have been to mares.
[41:45] off: Yeah.
[41:45] Daniel: So I recognize that, and for that, and because of my limited amount of time
[41:50] that I can only work with so many horses a day, I tend to, well, walk around, and
[41:55] you tell me how many mares you can count.
[41:56] I know.
[41:56] I
[41:57] Noelle: love it.
[41:57] Your barn's like my barn.
[41:58] I just, I'm total team mare all the way.
[42:00] Exactly.
[42:01] Daniel: So-
[42:02] Noelle: Well, Daniel, thank you so much.
[42:04] This podcast totally lived up to my expectation and more.
[42:07] Thank you.
[42:07] So thank you.
[42:08] Daniel: Thank you for having me.
[42:09] It was great.
[42:09] We had a lot of fun.
[42:11] Super.
[42:12] Noelle: Yeah, you're just ... Oh, you're so good.
[42:16] Thank you.
[42:16] That was great.
[42:16] Thank you.
[42:17] You were as, you were as ... Okay, but now-

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