# Your Saddle Fits a Horse That No Longer Exists — Letitia Glenn on Horse Care

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 22 Jul 2026, 1 h 12 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/NFP_-_Letitia_Glenn_Final_rev.mp3?dest-id=4715857

You measure with your hand while he stands there. Then he takes a step, and the horse you measured is gone. Saddle fit is horse care. I rode my whole life before anyone said that to me plainly. I met Letitia Glenn, founder of Contour Saddlery™, at Road to the Horse. She had seen footage of me riding, and the first thing she thought—which she then said to my face, out loud—was that I did not know what I did not know about saddles. She was right. I brought her to Florida on the hottest day of that summer, rode in one of her saddles, and felt my mare Lady's scapula move with a freedom it never had on the whole road trip. Letitia came to horses at 47, with a two-year-old Paso Fino stallion named Echo, and has spent the last quarter century asking one question: Why do so many saddles fit a standing horse, yet interfere with the horse once it begins to move? She found part of the answer backpacking. Fifty-five pounds, eight miles, the Rocky Mountains. Picture the corner of a book pressed into your spine. You will contort away from it. Horses do the same. Pressure behind the scapula changes posture, alters movement through the entire body, and creates compensation patterns that no amount of riding can truly fix. So we explore what she looks for: the upward head nod at the walk on a loose rein, the Four Bs, the belly tickle test, and the hollow behind the scapula that reveals chronic restriction. We also discuss why the interface (the space between the saddle and the moving back) matters just as much as the saddle itself, and how the Contour Saddlery™ Saddle System and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System were developed to help accommodate the horse's changing shape in motion by restoring shoulder freedom and improving pressure distribution. We also get into the part of horse care that never appears on a bill of sale. Saddle fitters are often paid by the brand they recommend. Trainers sometimes receive commissions on the tack their students buy. An expensive saddle isn't proof of a better fit—it may simply reflect a larger marketing budget. Lady gave me a scar on my stomach the first year I had her, reaching back for me while I tightened the cinch. I used to call that her temperament. Now I wonder if she was trying to tell me something. I wanted the horse world to hear this conversation because Lady had been telling me the same story for years—I just wasn't ready to listen. Learn more about Letitia Glenn, Contour Saddlery™, and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System, and request a free saddle fit evaluation: website | instagram | youtube At Contour Saddlery™, we believe saddle fit should be based on the horse in motion—not standing still. Our complete Contour Saddlery™ Saddle System and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System work together to create a dynamic fitting solution that supports shoulder freedom, accommodates your horse's changing shape, and helps improve comfort, movement, and performance. Whether you're looking to optimize your current saddle or invest in a complete saddle system, our goal is simple: Every Horse. Every Saddle. Every Ride.™ Learn how to improve the fit and function of your saddle: Experience the difference a truly horse-first saddle can make. Visit Naturalhorsemansaddles.com to learn more. Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments. https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening! Chapters: 0:00 "Saddles are torture devices" 2:13 She doesn't know what she doesn't know 6:41 Lady's shoulder, and what freedom felt like 10:07 The fourth…

## Transcript

[0:00] Letitia: It was Linda Parelli who said, "Saddles are torture devices."
[0:04] And for some reason, that hooked me.
[0:07] And I thought, "Why? That is the saddle maker's job, is to create equipment
[0:13] that would help my horse move as nature intended. I don't understand that."
[0:19] Noelle: Most riders fit a saddle to a horse standing still.
[0:23] The problem is, horses never stand still when it counts.
[0:27] The second they take a step, every measurement your hand just took is
[0:33] basically gone, and you're left fitting for an animal that no longer exists.
[0:39] Leticia Glenn figured that out on a mountain wearing a
[0:43] 55-pound backpack eight miles in.
[0:47] That hike taught her more about saddle fit than any saddle maker ever could.
[0:55] 25 years later, she's the woman behind the saddles that top riders like
[1:00] Ty Murray and Tick Maynard rely on.
[1:04] And today, she's breaking down everything your saddle fitter skipped.
[1:09] We get into the belly tickle test, the four Bs, and the exact moment
[1:14] a horse goes from giraffe to dolphin right under your saddle.
[1:20] If your horse has ever felt heavy, stuck, or like she can never quite
[1:26] come up underneath you, this is the episode that tells you why
[1:33] Letitia: Before we begin today's episode, I'd love to ask for your support.
[1:39] The simplest way
[1:39] Noelle: to support this podcast is to hit follow or subscribe
[1:43] wherever you are listening.
[1:45] It helps the show reach more people who care about the same things that we do.
[1:50] Better horsemanship, deeper conversations, and a more thoughtful future for
[1:55] horses and the people who love them.
[1:58] And if this podcast has meant something to you, leaving a rating, a review,
[2:03] or a comment makes a huge difference.
[2:07] So thank you for being here.
[2:09] I really do not take your time or attention for granted.
[2:13] Now, let's dive into today's episode.
[2:17] Leticia, welcome to my podcast.
[2:19] Letitia: Thanks for inviting me.
[2:20] Noelle: I'm so excited that you're here with me today.
[2:25] Letitia: I'm excited to be interviewed by you, because I like
[2:27] the way you think and ask questions.
[2:30] I've, I've enjoyed watching several of your podcasts recently.
[2:33] Noelle: Oh,
[2:34] Letitia: thank you.
[2:34] I'm impressed, Nicole.
[2:35] That's, that's great.
[2:36] Noelle: Oh, thank you.
[2:37] Well, I'm really excited to have you on, because you have kind of
[2:42] changed my life in the saddle.
[2:44] Cool.
[2:45] And I'm, so I'm really excited to share my journey and our journey
[2:48] together with everybody who's listening and watching this episode.
[2:52] Okay, so we met…
[2:54] I can't believe that we only met a year ago.
[2:57] Letitia: Yes, at Road to the Horse.
[2:59] Noelle: It feels- Right?
[2:59] It feels like a lot longer that we've known- Yeah … each
[3:01] other for some reason.
[3:03] But yes, we, we, we met a year ago, and we met at Road to the Horse, and you had seen
[3:10] some footage of me riding and you had, you were kind of following a li- You knew
[3:14] a little bit of my journey, what I was o- what I was up to, 'cause I was driving
[3:17] across the country with my horses, riding in diff- in, in different experiences
[3:22] and having different opportunities to ride with different, in different
[3:24] environments, different types of riding.
[3:27] And you said… What was the first thing you thought?
[3:31] Letitia: I can't… Can I say that?
[3:32] Noelle: Yeah.
[3:33] Letitia: I look forward to meeting Noëlle because she doesn't know
[3:37] what she doesn't know about saddles, and it's understandable because the
[3:41] traditional world doesn't either.
[3:43] This has been a-
[3:44] Noelle: Yeah
[3:44] … Letitia: quarter of a century mission on, on my part to figure out why
[3:49] saddle equipment was so negatively impactful on horses' bodies and way
[3:54] of going, and therefore relationships.
[3:56] And it just- Yeah … became my focus.
[3:59] So I was e- eager to share what I had learned with you.
[4:03] Noelle: Yeah.
[4:04] And so, and I will say in the beginning I was kinda like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[4:07] Okay." You know, you were like, "I want, you know, I want you to ride in my saddle.
[4:11] I want you to try my saddle." And I was like, "Okay.
[4:13] Cool." And I remember just being like, "All right."
[4:14] I, my, I, I didn't think much of it.
[4:17] Like, I remember thinking, because you do, and I mean, I get approached more
[4:21] and more these days about different products that I have to try or they're
[4:25] gonna… And I, and I said, I said this, I was literally having this conversation
[4:29] last night at WAC with someone.
[4:30] I said, "Look, I don't, um, I don't sell things.
[4:34] I don't, I just, I w- I want to share with my, my community
[4:38] things that have changed my life.
[4:40] And they may or may not change someone else's life." Right. That's not for me
[4:43] to say. All I can do is share, like, products or experiences that I've had
[4:47] that I think are really impactful for, like, my journey and my horses, right?"
[4:51] Mm-hmm.
[4:52] And so I remember thinking like, "Okay. Yeah. Cool, cool." And
[4:55] then- Come on really strong.
[4:56] I, I- I think you do too.
[4:58] Really passionate.
[4:59] Yeah.
[4:59] Which, which now that I know you, you really are very passionate.
[5:02] Yeah.
[5:03] You're a very passionate person.
[5:04] And I'm also a very passionate person.
[5:06] And I've also come on really strong with people.
[5:08] Like, you could ask, like, we could ask 100 people who have met me in the
[5:11] horse world, and they'd go, "Oh, yeah.
[5:13] Noëlle, she's awesome.
[5:14] Very, um, forward.
[5:16] Like, very, uh, passionate." And I think the, people often say, like,
[5:20] the nice way to say it is passionate.
[5:22] Letitia: Yeah.
[5:22] Noelle: But I, I, so I get it.
[5:24] Like, I s- I feel a, a kinship with you in that way.
[5:27] And especially when you learn something, um, you wanna share it with everybody.
[5:32] You know, I have that same feeling.
[5:34] That's why the podcast exists.
[5:35] For
[5:35] Letitia: the horses.
[5:36] Yeah.
[5:36] I mean, because they don't get the chance unless people-
[5:40] Noelle: Yes
[5:41] Letitia: Adapt.
[5:42] Noelle: So I remember I got back to Florida after Road to the Horse,
[5:45] and I think you messaged me, and you were like, "Hey, I'm in C- Ocala."
[5:49] Like- Mm … "I wanna come and bring some saddles, and I want to…" And I remember,
[5:52] and I was riding in a, in a different type of saddle then, and I was like,
[5:56] "Okay." And we had done some really cool educational content about saddle fitting,
[6:00] which I'm really prou- I'm really glad we got that information out to people.
[6:04] And then I'm really glad you pushed, and that you, like, made
[6:08] that day happen, and it was so hot.
[6:10] I'll never forget.
[6:10] It was… Like, I remember thinking, "This is, like, the hottest day to try saddles."
[6:15] Um, and, you know, before you came over, I, I knew that you had, you'd worked with
[6:21] a lot of people that I deeply respect.
[6:22] Like, you work with Ty Murray.
[6:24] You've worked with Jonathan Fields.
[6:26] You work with Tick Maynard.
[6:27] Like- Tick,
[6:28] Letitia: Tick bought our saddle and was at Road to the Horse.
[6:30] With it.
[6:31] And, and so that's why I was there.
[6:32] Yeah.
[6:32] I wanted to see what happened.
[6:34] Noelle: Yeah, and there were lots of people who I'd heard really great things
[6:37] about or that I knew really great things about that really loved your saddles.
[6:41] And so I thought, "Okay. I really, I'm now curious." Like, I'd,
[6:45] p- you'd piqued my interest.
[6:46] You know what I mean?
[6:47] And then you came over.
[6:49] I rode in the saddles that I did have, and then you, we then went through
[6:54] your, not just the saddle fitting process, but the pad fitting process
[6:59] and understanding my horses in motion.
[7:02] And then I rode in a Carry Me, which I still have that very same saddle.
[7:08] And the freedom of movement that my mare lady had in her shoulder was
[7:12] freedom of movement that she had not had for the first half of the road trip.
[7:16] Yeah.
[7:16] And any time, like, that I'd had her.
[7:18] Yeah.
[7:18] I'd never experienced that type of freedom in, specifically in her
[7:23] scapula and i- in that front part- Yeah
[7:25] of her body, which I had been really working to free up.
[7:28] Like, you know, Josh Nichol, if he were here, he would say, like, we, when I
[7:32] first got that mare, we had so many conversations about her shoulders, because
[7:36] she carried tension in her shoulders.
[7:38] She- Yeah … used her shoulders to claim s- like, to really create space.
[7:42] Like, the ener- the, the level of tension and story that existed
[7:47] in her body, specifically in her shoulders, was significant.
[7:50] And so I, so to then see that with you was really amazing.
[7:55] Letitia: And that's, that's the key to understanding about her whole body.
[7:59] That's what we've learned.
[8:01] The, and, and um, and I've, I've figured it out, the importance of, of the, the
[8:07] pad and the shins, the interface between her body and the underside of the saddle.
[8:12] I figured it out because I'd been a backpacker, and I remembered what it
[8:15] was like to put on a 55-pound pack.
[8:18] And i- if, I remember saying to you, um, as I say often to people,
[8:23] if you imagine that you have the corner of a book in your backpack-
[8:28] Noelle: Yeah
[8:29] … Letitia: just close your eyes and imagine it.
[8:30] What would you do?
[8:31] You, you, your brain would force you to contort away from it.
[8:35] So if she's contorting her shoulders away from pressure, it's affecting, her
[8:38] left shoulder is gonna talk to her right hip, which is gonna rotate forward.
[8:42] Noelle: Yeah.
[8:42] Letitia: Her belly's gonna drop a little bit.
[8:44] Her head's gonna come up and back and shorten and, and probably bulge
[8:48] on the underside- Yeah … because she's gonna be on her underside.
[8:52] She's not gonna be the dolphin that you want over her top line.
[8:56] Mm-hmm.
[8:56] And no matter how much you try to manage the reins and get her to collect and get
[9:00] under herself, she can't get under herself if she's inverted even a little bit.
[9:05] Noelle: Yeah.
[9:06] Letitia: Anyway, so it's not just the shoulder.
[9:08] That's something I hope people can come to understand.
[9:11] It's the whole moving body.
[9:14] It's the biomechanics of everything that's affected by that shoulder.
[9:19] Noelle: So we're gonna dive into not only saddle design and tree design and, but
[9:25] we're also gonna talk about the shim pad concept that I actually like, and again,
[9:32] I'm not here to sell your saddles or your pads, but I'm here- Oh, go ahead.
[9:37] But I'm here to talk about how I personally just would never, ever now put
[9:44] a saddle on, like I would just m- I, I travel everywhere with your pad system.
[9:51] I would never, ever consider not having them as the interface between
[9:55] my horse's back and a saddle.
[9:57] Letitia: Great.
[9:57] Then- So- He will thank you.
[9:59] Noelle: Yeah, and G and Ginger and- Yeah.
[10:01] all my horses, you know, that now like I just would never think twice
[10:05] about not having this pad system.
[10:07] Letitia: Oh, that's so cool to hear.
[10:08] Yeah.
[10:09] I, I'm, we, we talk about having, there are four components to riding success,
[10:14] and everybody thinks about the horse being healthy mentally, emotionally,
[10:17] physically, balanced, and connected to the rider, and the rider mentally,
[10:21] emotionally, physically balanced, independent seat, connected to the horse.
[10:26] And the saddle, it's an important tool, but people really don't realize
[10:30] how impactful it is and that it needs to be bigger than the standing horse.
[10:33] We can get into that, but they don't talk about the fourth component, and that's
[10:38] that interface, and without that, I'm s- I'm thrilled that you've realized it.
[10:42] A- and you can try it with and without, with or without, and she'll tell you
[10:46] every time, "Please ride with it."
[10:49] Noelle: Yeah, and that's the truth is I think that's why you're here is
[10:52] that Lady was so definitive- Mm-hmm
[10:57] I hate- She is … she is, right?
[10:58] Like everyone who listens, you know, devoutly to this podcast knows a lot about
[11:03] Lady, and she is an extremely expressive mare, and that's what I love about her.
[11:08] She's actually taught me more than any human about horses and
[11:12] horsemanship, um, because of how opinionated and expressive she is.
[11:16] What I also believe to be true is that we s- you know, we don't know what
[11:20] we don't know, like you said, right?
[11:22] She doesn't know what she doesn't know about saddles.
[11:23] Letitia: None of us do, yeah.
[11:24] Noelle: And I think now having watched more horses, you know, when
[11:30] we were in that field at TIX, you, y- you were, we were talking about
[11:35] how to identify when a horse is, you know, got the book in the backpack.
[11:40] Mm. And is not able to fill the space, um, within the tree of the saddle.
[11:44] They, they don't feel that there's space enough for their
[11:47] m- b- body in motion, right?
[11:49] Um, I've seen it more and more now.
[11:52] Mm-hmm.
[11:52] Because I know what to look for.
[11:54] Yeah.
[11:54] And now I think I can identify, better at least, the s- subtle
[12:00] sometimes, the subtle, um, signs in a horse's mo- like movement.
[12:06] Yeah.
[12:06] That they don't feel like their top line and specifically their back, their
[12:11] shoulders, their withers, they do not feel like they can fill the space.
[12:14] Letitia: Right.
[12:15] Noelle: And then when you talked, and I want, so I want you to expand on this idea
[12:18] because it really is an, it's, it's such an important concept for us to understand.
[12:23] Letitia: Um, I think i- in trying to identify things to help people identify
[12:28] when their horse might be struggling under a saddle, of course there are always other
[12:32] contributing factors maybe, so you can't always say it's definitely the saddle.
[12:36] But I can very often say it's definitely the saddle.
[12:39] Noelle: Hey.
[12:40] Letitia: If the horse's head is nodding up, even subtly, at the walk on a loose
[12:45] rein, it's can be a subtle thing or it can be a really dramatic upward nod.
[12:51] And if you think yourself, getting back to the book and the backpack,
[12:54] if you're nodding upward, you're, you're tensing your top line, right?
[12:58] You're, you're traveling more like a, an upside down banana-
[13:02] Noelle: Yeah
[13:02] … Letitia: than if you're nodding down.
[13:04] If you're nodding down, you feel the tension go away between your shoulders.
[13:07] You feel, you feel a, a strength along your top line, and certainly
[13:14] you can see it in a horse.
[13:15] A horse will look more like a dolphin when- Yeah
[13:17] he's moving, even at the walk, than a giraffe.
[13:21] Noelle: Yeah.
[13:21] Letitia: So that nod upward is the number one.
[13:24] And if the horse is nodding upward, the hind legs can't come under as far.
[13:29] The, the, uh, pounding on the forehand will be louder.
[13:34] Um, there are all kinds of things, swishing tails and looks on the faces,
[13:38] tension in the eyes, but that little head nodding upward, you can see it
[13:43] on a trail horse or, yeah, anytime you have the opportunity on a loose rein to
[13:49] see a horse, and transitions of course, very often their heads will shoot in
[13:53] the air in a transition or a stop.
[13:55] Um, and you know that there's a good chance they're being jammed by that
[13:59] saddle right behind the scapula.
[14:02] Noelle: So I wanna actually bring in, bring in a thought that I was
[14:07] introduced to about this idea that a horse's body in motion is different
[14:13] than a horse's body, um, s- standing.
[14:16] Mm-hmm.
[14:16] And that we, when we fit saddles, we often fit saddles when the
[14:22] horse is standing there, right?
[14:24] How do you… Can you explain to everybody how, how can you understand
[14:28] how the saddle fits a horse's body when you can't have your hands
[14:31] under while the horse is moving?
[14:33] Letitia: Yeah.
[14:33] Noelle: Like, it's such a… To me, I, I really, this is a mystery
[14:36] I really want to solve today.
[14:38] Letitia: I guess it's, well, it was hard to identify it specifically except in the
[14:43] observation of the horse while traveling.
[14:46] So if you think about when the horse is standing there, you've got a
[14:49] slope of a shoulder, and very often a saddle maker would say you must
[14:52] mirror the angle of the slope of the shoulder with the shape of the tree.
[14:56] And now that I know what I know, I always think the horse is thinking,
[14:59] "Well, if you do that, what's gonna happen when I take my first step and
[15:03] I'm a totally different set of shapes?"
[15:06] Noelle: I want to take a quick pause to invite you into my brand-new Substack.
[15:11] Each week, I publish essays on the horse world, from equine industry insights,
[15:17] horse culture, equine economics, even the more mystical, spiritual, and
[15:23] relational side of life with horses.
[15:27] It's where I write more candidly about what I'm seeing, questioning, learning,
[15:32] and working through with my own horses.
[15:36] A lot of these essays are inspired by the wisdom of my podcast guests, my NF
[15:41] Plus instructors, and the incredible horses who keep asking me to look deeper.
[15:48] There are free and paid pieces, and subscribing is a beautiful way for you
[15:54] to support my work in the horse world.
[15:57] You can find my Substack at noellefloyd.substack.com or
[16:03] through the link in the show notes.
[16:05] Now, let's get back to the episode.
[16:08] Letitia: What's gonna happen when I take my first step and I'm a
[16:11] totally different set of shapes?
[16:13] So you can simulate your, what is gonna happen by lifting a front leg of a horse.
[16:20] You identify where the back edge of the scapula bone is.
[16:23] Where's my scapula I brought?
[16:25] Noelle: Yeah.
[16:25] Here.
[16:25] Letitia: I got it.
[16:27] If every rider, we call it the four Bs.
[16:29] I'm trying to, we're trying to reduce things to simple principles for people
[16:32] to, to really understand w- what we've learned that is quite simple-
[16:37] Noelle: Yes
[16:37] … Letitia: now that we've figured it out.
[16:39] If you know where is the back edge of your horse's scapula bone, that's the
[16:44] first of four Bs, and then you lift the front leg, the scapula bone is gonna
[16:49] swing back, and when that happens, there's a bulge of muscle That happens.
[16:53] And you identify where is the back of that bulge.
[16:57] So you've got the bone, and you have the bulge, and then if you put the lifting
[17:01] power of a tapered foam shim behind that bulge, there's an opportunity to bulge.
[17:09] Without at least this much lifting power, that muscle can't bulge.
[17:13] If it can't bulge, it's squashed like the book in the backpack.
[17:16] Noelle: Yes.
[17:17] Yeah.
[17:17] Letitia: So everything else doesn't happen.
[17:20] Mm, another thing that we notice quite definitively, if you tickle
[17:24] your horse's belly with all eight of your fingernails, kind of politely
[17:29] but aggressively, um, maybe even push up a little bit in the sternum region
[17:34] or just behind the sternum- Yeah … where the bugs bite him, you know?
[17:37] Noelle: Yeah, yeah.
[17:37] Letitia: If you do that, the horse is gonna be stimulated to contract
[17:40] abdominal muscles and push that back up.
[17:43] Mm-hmm.
[17:43] And if you look at the top line, it's gonna be amazing where there was a gentle
[17:47] curve from the wither down into the back and back to the croup suddenly will
[17:52] become just about a, a straight line.
[17:54] Even in a horse that has quite a swale, he probably still has the ability to
[18:00] contract and push up, and if you were viewing from above, he would be wider.
[18:05] Noelle: Yes.
[18:05] Letitia: So there's your different shapes.
[18:07] You've got the bulging shoulder.
[18:08] You've got the uplifted and expanded back, which is now flat, not curved.
[18:12] Yeah.
[18:12] You don't want rock in your tree bars sitting into that swale thinking
[18:16] that fits the horse so nicely.
[18:18] It doesn't.
[18:19] It will hold him down.
[18:21] And from the moment-
[18:22] Noelle: And we as riders, if we don't understand what's happening, we're gonna
[18:24] get frustrated that our horse's top line can't engage, that we're, they're not
[18:28] able to come up and underneath themselves.
[18:31] Letitia: Right.
[18:31] But if the saddle- They
[18:32] Noelle: gradually
[18:32] Letitia: get a hole
[18:32] … Noelle: but if the saddle is restricting them- Yeah
[18:35] it's not our ability.
[18:36] It's not the horse's ability.
[18:38] It's the interface between what's being asked and what's possible.
[18:42] Letitia: Right, and the, and the horse is absolutely not able to use his
[18:45] body as nature intended because what a horse naturally wants to do when
[18:50] saddled with the saddle alone, let alone you getting into the saddle,
[18:54] is to power up and be ready to carry.
[18:57] That requires that uplift.
[18:58] It happens automatically.
[19:00] That requires the neck arching out.
[19:03] The whole top line becomes a suspension bridge.
[19:06] Noelle: Yeah.
[19:06] Letitia: Yeah, all the way to the pole, and, and that's what feels good
[19:10] when you're trying to carry something.
[19:11] Like when I was carrying my backpack or 55 pounds eight miles up in the
[19:16] Rocky Mountains, um, I had to be able to spread my scapula and push into it,
[19:22] and just thinking about that helped me understand what the horse must feel.
[19:26] Noelle: I never thought about that, that actually, 'cause I've done quite
[19:29] a lot of hiking- Yeah … a lot of big mountain hiking, like big m-
[19:32] yeah, and I, and I… It's funny.
[19:34] I never thought of that analogy, but it's actually a wonderful reference
[19:37] and- Yeah … visual for us.
[19:38] Okay, so when we're carrying a large backpack on our back- And you're in
[19:43] the mountains, so you're engaging, you're essentially engaging what
[19:47] would be the top line of your body
[19:49] Letitia: By sucking in
[19:50] Noelle: By engaging your core Yeah
[19:52] your belly button goes towards your spine.
[19:54] Letitia: Yep.
[19:54] Noelle: That's the most correct way to carry a heavy backpack-
[19:57] Letitia: Yes
[19:57] … Noelle: in the mountains, right?
[19:59] Is you, you actually have to, like, lean forward.
[20:02] You have to create your own dolphin- Right … shape with your body.
[20:06] Um, and if you can't, if you have to shallow your back, and because
[20:12] let's say there isn't space in the backpack, 'cause there is
[20:15] If, if anyone who's listening or watching this episode has spent
[20:18] any time in the mountains, like, you do … It will de- completely
[20:21] determine your experience if you have il-equitting, ill, ill-fitting equipment.
[20:25] Like, if you don't have the right hike boots, you don't have the right backpack
[20:29] Letitia: or- Or a stone in your shoe.
[20:30] Noelle: I mean- Yeah.
[20:30] Like, it really does … yeah, yeah It, it really … Like, you can be
[20:33] in the most beautiful part of the world, and you just, you wanna die.
[20:37] It's the awf- most awful feeling ever.
[20:40] And I'm thinking that, like, imagine you have this huge weighted backpack, and
[20:43] you can't expand your shoulder blades, and you can't engage your back, upper,
[20:48] middle, and lower back muscles- Mm
[20:50] which then allow you to fire your gluteus muscles, which is actually what supports
[20:54] your back, which actually keeps your b- your lower back from becoming sore.
[20:58] Letitia: Let your knees, you can lift your knees higher climbing
[21:00] Noelle: a mountain.
[21:00] Yeah.
[21:01] Like, your whole body has to be able to be in motion while-
[21:03] Yeah … carrying a heavy load.
[21:05] So when hor- when our horses are carrying us, whether they're in the mountains
[21:09] or not, they must be able to … And when I talk about shoulder blades,
[21:14] we're talking about the scapulas.
[21:15] It's, this is, m- you know, the same, same.
[21:17] Yeah.
[21:18] Um, they must be able to engage and carry us by engaging their top line.
[21:23] That allows them to access their hind end, which allows them to not
[21:28] then get a sore sacrum and mid-back.
[21:32] Letitia: Right, because if they're dropped in the back-
[21:34] Noelle: That's where they
[21:34] Letitia: get … they rotate their hips for- That's where lumbar pain comes from.
[21:38] It doesn't come from a saddle too far behind the 18th rib or anything.
[21:41] Like, it comes when a horse has to be inverted.
[21:43] And if they're squeezed in the shoulders, they're going to invert.
[21:47] Their hips are gonna rotate forward.
[21:49] They're going to get lumbar pain.
[21:50] And another thing you'll notice, um, in a standing horse you can see it, there's
[21:55] often a dip in front of the wither.
[21:58] Yes.
[21:58] And that comes from the tension in that muscle.
[22:02] When the horse is trying to be collected, the rider may be trying to guide a
[22:06] collected posture through rein pressure, leg aids, and, and whatnot, and the horse
[22:11] is trying to do it, but he's inverted.
[22:13] And then Trying to arch Well, and that's
[22:16] Noelle: where we see-
[22:17] Letitia: And there's a, you see that tension there.
[22:19] Noelle: Yes.
[22:20] Letitia: Yeah, and often when you take the saddle off, behind
[22:23] the scapula you see a big hole.
[22:25] I saw a dressage rider, a, a really good rider, unsaddle her horse the other day.
[22:30] I could have stuffed a cantaloupe into that hole.
[22:33] It was so deep.
[22:34] Noelle: Well, and that's what they call atrophy.
[22:36] Letitia: And that
[22:37] Noelle: is, uh, there should be- When we see atrophied backs, and we see it at
[22:41] the high performance level, and I know that a couple of body workers and people
[22:46] whose professions are focused on the integrity of a horse's top line did call
[22:52] out a series of high performance horses-
[22:55] Letitia: Oh, good
[22:55] Noelle: at, in photographs at, um, jogs, 'cause they were shocked at
[22:59] the, at the level of atrophied backs-
[23:02] Letitia: Yeah
[23:03] … Noelle: at that level.
[23:04] They were saying, "How is it that horses at the high performance level, we're
[23:07] seeing atrophy in their top line?"
[23:09] Letitia: Is, m- people, people don't know.
[23:11] I, I always say, if I see a horse like that and, and I have a rider
[23:15] who's curious and maybe interested in test riding, which of course I'd
[23:18] lo- love to f- be able to facilitate and watch the transformation, is just
[23:27] It, it moves me so much.
[23:28] That's why I keep doing it.
[23:28] I, I keep saying it's my crack cocaine.
[23:30] But anyway, when I see see that hole there, I say, "You know,
[23:33] you really want this to be beef steak, not beef jerky here."
[23:37] Noelle: Mm.
[23:38] ' Letitia: Cause it's rawhide down to the bone rather than nice plump,
[23:43] healthy muscle, and you, uh, just imagine what that does to the
[23:48] biomechanics of the whole animal.
[23:50] Noelle: So I also wanna bring up something, I wanna identify something that
[23:52] I think is so important, the correlation y- we just talked about, where if you
[23:56] have an ill-fitted saddle and the horse isn't capable of filling out the space
[24:01] in the interface between their body and yours, specifically in that, in,
[24:07] on their back, and in and around their wither, and we're asking them to c-
[24:11] and t- to become collected in the walk, trot, or canter, then what happens is
[24:16] we see all the stress in, in the neck.
[24:19] Letitia: Mm-hmm.
[24:19] Noelle: And in-
[24:20] Letitia: Skinny and flat on top,
[24:22] Noelle: and often under, folded up … Yeah, and what we see, like, and that's
[24:24] when you start talking to specialists who do a lot of, um, spinal work.
[24:30] Mm. And, like, Dr. Marilyn Mauller will talk, you know, like, w- she'll
[24:34] talk a lot about spinal integrity.
[24:36] Mm-hmm.
[24:36] And you'll see stress in the C1, C2, C3.
[24:39] Mm-hmm.
[24:39] Because they're having to do all of the flexion- Right … in the start,
[24:44] in the beginning of their spine, not throughout their entire spine, which
[24:47] is really what we're, what we want.
[24:49] Yeah.
[24:49] That's the integrity of the collection, is that the collection and the engagement
[24:53] takes place across the entire spine.
[24:55] Right.
[24:55] But if the saddle is keeping them from doing that because there isn't space
[24:59] for them to expand and engage their top line, then all of the flexion has to
[25:03] happen in the beginning of their, s- in, in the early sta- the early stages
[25:07] of their spine, and that's where we see… And then people are talking all
[25:10] about why there's so much arthritis in C1, C2, and why are we injecting-
[25:14] Letitia: In kissing spines
[25:15] Noelle: Right.
[25:16] Letitia: Well, um, and that's when I'm, I'm just hoping, before I croak,
[25:21] that, um, that judges might consider having a steward at the end of the arena
[25:27] who tries to put their hand in along the horse's body between the saddle
[25:33] and up around the bars, and if they can't get their hand in there, back
[25:37] as far as the stirrup bar, actually.
[25:39] Mm. If they can't get their hand in there comfortably, they're gonna know the
[25:42] muscles are gonna be squashed, and that kind of biomechanical problem, and really
[25:46] horse cruelty is going to happen for the sake of form They, the steward will say,
[25:54] "You're welcome into the arena after you go back to your tack room and fix that."
[25:57] All it would take is a little tapered foam shim to make a huge difference.
[26:00] Noelle: Mm.
[26:01] Letitia: Tuck it at the scapula back swing point, lift that pressure off the
[26:04] shoulder, your horse will give you a whole new gear, and you'll score higher.
[26:09] Noelle: So this is so interesting because I now just put this together.
[26:14] When we see horses that are not able to access their cervical,
[26:21] thoracic, and lumbar spine because of ill-fitting equipment, then when
[26:25] they're being asked to colle- like, to collect their gait, either at the
[26:30] walk, trot, or canter, or in a, maybe even in a complex movement- Mm-hmm
[26:34] if they can't collect and engage their thoracic spine, then they're gonna have
[26:40] to, then they're, then I think that's where why we see so much tension and
[26:44] stress on the cervical spine because then they basically, that's what we see when
[26:48] we, when, when, when great horsemen and horsewomen talk about all the collection
[26:52] is only happening in the neck- Yeah
[26:54] specifically in that C1/C2 area where we see a lot more injections
[26:57] happening within horses now.
[26:59] Oh.
[26:59] Because the flexion, they are, like, literally these horses are saying, "I
[27:02] can only flex and collect in the, in my cervical spine. I actually can't
[27:09] access my thoracic spine." Yeah.
[27:11] And if they can't access the thoracic, then they're gonna be
[27:13] limited in their lumbar, correct?
[27:15] Letitia: They, uh, uh, absolutely.
[27:16] Well, they, they can't access the early part of the thoracic
[27:20] of the, uh, cervical area.
[27:22] Yeah.
[27:22] That's where that dip comes, that tension in front of the withers, because they're
[27:26] being asked by the reins of the rider, and just as you say, over bending Um, the
[27:34] cervical spine up here, but then they're inverting the cervical spine at the base.
[27:40] The saddles are jamming in behind the scapula, which is causing the lumbar
[27:46] area, the hips to rotate forward.
[27:49] Right And so they get pain in the lumbar area muscles.
[27:52] So yeah, the spine
[27:55] Noelle: should be- And that's why we see s- sore sacrum pain.
[27:57] Like, we see-
[27:57] Letitia: Oh, yeah
[27:58] … Noelle: we see so much sacrum pain in horses.
[28:00] Letitia: And pointed, when you see them, the hip bones and the, and the-
[28:03] Noelle: Oh, that double
[28:03] sacrum I was literally looking at a horse just, like, couple weeks ago-
[28:07] Letitia: Yeah
[28:07] … Noelle: in a, in a barn I was visiting that literally had that,
[28:10] the, like, the second hump they call it- Yeah … or whatever it's called.
[28:13] Letitia: Yeah.
[28:14] Well, in, in the, uh, iliosacral area, the, the muscle is, um,
[28:21] stressed around it and can't develop.
[28:23] You don't have a nice round gluteal muscle in that area.
[28:26] It, you can… When you take off the saddle, you can look at a horse's
[28:31] body and tell what he can and cannot use when he's being ridden.
[28:35] And when you begin to see the, um, the muscle depletion and the muscle
[28:40] overdevelopment in some areas- Yes … like you see in overdevelopment in the
[28:43] under spine, overdevelopment in the pectoral muscles, overdevelopment in
[28:47] the, uh, the neck, the brachiocephalicus and, um, don't need to name all
[28:52] the muscles, doesn't matter.
[28:53] But you can just see the imbalance, and once you see it, you can't unsee
[28:57] Noelle: it.
[28:57] Unsee it.
[28:58] And- It's the truth
[28:59] … Letitia: and when you, when you just realize the power of unlocking-
[29:03] Noelle: The scapula
[29:04] … Letitia: the, and everyone talks these days about shoulder room and whatnot,
[29:08] but they- are learning how to create it.
[29:12] Gratefully, we did figure it out, figure it out a, a while back,
[29:16] but without it, you do not have a healthy biomechanical system.
[29:21] I don't even know if biomechanical is a word, but you don't
[29:24] Noelle: have a functioning sy- Let's make it a word.
[29:25] I'm, I've started to believe, like, we can just make, let's… The horse world makes
[29:29] up a lot of things, so we're gonna start making up- It is our hobby … we're gonna
[29:31] make up some words while we're at it, too.
[29:33] Letitia: Anyway, um, luckily, the horse really can recover in so many, uh,
[29:40] instances really quite quickly once you free up that back under the equipment,
[29:45] like all the wonderful online work and exercises, and you men- mentioned the,
[29:51] the, um, massage and whatnot, what we us- Oh, yeah … have the, and- There's
[29:55] Noelle: so much
[29:56] Letitia: avail-
[29:56] cranial sacral work and, and fascia work, and all of that is so wonderful.
[30:01] But when you put equipment that restricts their way of going on them again,
[30:05] you s- You're undoing … this cycle.
[30:07] Noelle: You're undoing all your beautiful work.
[30:09] Letitia: Well, and it's, um, once you know it, it's animal
[30:11] cruelty if you don't fix it.
[30:15] Noelle: I spend a lot of time thinking about how to set my horses
[30:19] up to feel their best, both on the road and at home, and the equipment
[30:25] I ride in is a vital part of that.
[30:29] That's why I ride in Contour saddles.
[30:32] Their entire approach starts with the horses in motion, designing saddles around
[30:38] the way horses move instead of expecting every horse to fit one rigid shape.
[30:46] Their adjustable shim fitting system was a big win over for me, because my horses
[30:52] do a lot of different types of riding in both English and Western saddles.
[30:58] So those saddles have to be able to adapt as my horses and their
[31:03] bodies develop and change over time.
[31:06] Whether I'm riding sets around the track at the Pegasus Training facility in
[31:11] Washington, jumping natural fences with Tick Maynard in Florida, riding a cowboy
[31:16] challenge with Craig Cameron in Texas, moving cows with Martin Black in Idaho,
[31:22] or packing deep into the Wind River Mountains in Wyoming, I know I have a
[31:27] saddle that moves with my horse's body and suits the dynamic life I lead with them.
[31:33] It is a thoughtful approach that aligns with the way I think about horsemanship,
[31:39] and it's why, out of all the saddles I've seen and had the opportunity
[31:43] to ride in, Contour has become the saddle I trust with my own horses.
[31:49] Learn more at naturalhorsemansaddles.com
[31:56] It's actually, and I will say to everybody that, 'cause I do, you know,
[32:01] I, when I got Lady, she'd had a lot…
[32:03] You could tell just by the way that her body had formed around
[32:06] the saddles that were being used.
[32:07] Letitia: Oh, and she told you with her face, boy.
[32:09] Yeah.
[32:09] She had anxiety when you approached her with that saddle.
[32:12] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:13] Yeah.
[32:13] And I have a scar on my stomach because she was very cinchy when I got her, and
[32:17] she had a lot of rib, like, she had a lot of rib tightness and a lot of scar
[32:22] tissue that I had to work on, and the only way, actually, um, we literally
[32:27] had Rachel Meyer on the podcast talking about the importance of fascia, and I
[32:31] can attest that when we have poor-fitting saddles and we have, um, it affects
[32:36] the, all the fascia around the ribs.
[32:38] I had to do a lot of rehabilitation of all the fascia tissue, and I have a scar on my
[32:42] stomach from her lashing back and grabbing at me while I was cinching up a saddle.
[32:47] To be fair, it was my fault, 'cause I
[32:48] Letitia: did- Yeah.
[32:49] Thank you, Lady
[32:50] … Noelle: Yeah.
[32:50] You literally- Come
[32:51] Letitia: here
[32:51] … Noelle: she was telling me, like, "This hurts, this hurts,
[32:54] this hurts, this hurts."
[32:55] And I think a lot of, of the aggressive behavior that we see in horses, they're
[33:00] trying so hard- Yeah … to tell us, "Hey, I'm, I'm hurting. I'm, I'm trying
[33:07] in all the ways that I possibly can tell you that I'm in pain, and I, I
[33:12] really need you to address the pain before you ask me to do anything else."
[33:16] Letitia: Exactly.
[33:17] And more often than not, though, horses don't express
[33:21] themselves that way, do they?
[33:22] They become-
[33:22] Noelle: They shut
[33:23] Letitia: down … the learned helplessness look on their face.
[33:25] Noelle: Yeah.
[33:26] Letitia: Um, they just shut down.
[33:28] And, um, it's up to us to figure out how to- We have to advocate for
[33:32] Noelle: them.
[33:33] Letitia: We have to.
[33:34] What is it?
[33:34] Ty Murray, I love it.
[33:35] He says, "I'm gonna be the horse's lawyer for the rest of my life."
[33:39] Noelle: Oh, that's a great line.
[33:39] Yeah.
[33:39] I love that.
[33:41] Letitia: Yeah.
[33:41] Noelle: Okay, let's talk about the origin story of all of this.
[33:43] Like, how, you know, y- I would love to hear about why, how you became,
[33:49] like, on this path in your life.
[33:52] And what did you see that made you say, "I have to commit my whole life, and to, or
[33:58] the rest of my life to-" Oh, yeah … "to getting this out there in the world."
[34:01] Letitia: Um, well, the genesis of this was I read Walter Farley's The Black Stallion
[34:07] in the third grade, and I hungered for a horse from deep in my heart all my life.
[34:11] And I was 47 years old before I finally looked at my husband and said, "If I don't
[34:15] have a horse before I die, I'm going to die." So, so a dear friend who w- gave
[34:21] me a two-year-old Paso Fino stallion, and there's a whole lot of stories
[34:24] about that, but that was my first horse.
[34:26] And I had a very expensive custom-made saddle, um, for him because I had
[34:32] access to top saddle makers, and that's another series of stories.
[34:37] But went to a great effort to have this saddle made, as so many of us do, trying
[34:41] to do the right thing for our horsey.
[34:44] And then I became aware when he was walking around in that saddle, he
[34:48] didn't look like he did in the pasture.
[34:51] He was, um, he was obviously stilted.
[34:55] And, um, and I can say it was Linda Parelli who said, "Saddles
[35:00] are torture devices." And for some reason, that hooked me.
[35:05] And I thought, why?
[35:06] That is the saddle maker's job is to create equipment that would help
[35:11] my horse move as nature intended.
[35:14] I don't understand that.
[35:15] So-
[35:16] Noelle: Like, how is that okay?
[35:17] Letitia: How, how, how is that okay?
[35:18] Am I… And still to this day, I am shocked that saddle makers are using
[35:23] some of the traditional ways of building because, I guess, among other things,
[35:28] they don't wanna go to the expense as
[35:31] Noelle: we have.
[35:31] Or they
[35:31] Letitia: don't
[35:32] Noelle: have the expense.
[35:33] I, I- They don't have the ability, right?
[35:35] Letitia: The, yeah, I, I just can't believe that some of our top makers
[35:40] can't get into this concept of the moving horse's body is a totally different set
[35:45] of shapes than the standing horse's body.
[35:47] Anyway, at, at first, we thought, "Well, we'll, we just need to go out and look
[35:52] for saddle makers' work that will enable a horse to move." And saddle makers
[35:58] have their opinions about that, and we couldn't find anything on the market.
[36:04] And so working with saddle makers, I, over the course of three and a half
[36:08] years and eight prototypes, and again, I credit Linda Parelli for really
[36:14] having the awareness about a horse's movement.
[36:19] She educated me at first because I, I just was seeing something that was, um,
[36:25] that didn't have a form or substance in my mind, that I didn't feel confident
[36:30] being a fairly new horse person.
[36:33] Well, I, I became confident fairly quickly, enough to say to the saddle
[36:38] makers who said, "Let me show you how I do it," I just started watching the horses.
[36:44] And they would, they would tell you, if you knew what you were looking at,
[36:47] everything from the softness in the eye that would Um, become soft when
[36:53] the anticipation of the uncomfortable saddle wasn't uncomfortable.
[36:57] Mm. To the quality of stride, and the rhythmic way of going, and the fact
[37:02] that as the horse moved along, it didn't look like work, it looked like movement.
[37:09] And it gave the riders an opportunity to feel much more comfortable, less pounding
[37:13] on the forehand, a partnership that really could be a dance instead of a job-
[37:19] Noelle: Yeah
[37:19] … Letitia: on the part of the horse.
[37:21] And so there were sim- simple notes we took about, um, what would
[37:27] constitute a healthy way of going, and we've had that corroborated
[37:30] scientifically through the years.
[37:31] This has been a quarter of a century.
[37:33] Wow.
[37:33] We asked, you asked why, why did I make that my mission or how did that happen?
[37:38] I don't know.
[37:39] How, how did, how did it happen that all of a sudden you ended up on this
[37:43] trickle that became a river that is-
[37:46] Noelle: Right
[37:47] … Letitia: is an, that is an ocean.
[37:48] I mean, I can't imagine doing anything else that would help me feel more
[37:51] purposeful since reading Walter Farley's The Black Stallion in the third grade.
[37:57] Noelle: Well, I think-
[37:58] Letitia: I-
[37:58] … Noelle: what I sense in you is something, and I sense in my- and it's
[38:00] the same thing that I have in myself, it's a sense of being in service.
[38:04] Mm-hmm.
[38:04] Right?
[38:05] And being service to something greater to yourself, and I think
[38:10] it's an intangible feeling.
[38:11] It's a p- a feeling that's difficult to explain or describe, but it's
[38:15] like you just can't imagine doing…
[38:18] I really relate to that feeling of just I cannot imagine doing anything else.
[38:21] Letitia: And it's a wonderful feeling selfishly, right?
[38:24] You feel quite relevant.
[38:26] And even at my, I'm 82 years old, and I feel, feel like I'm living
[38:29] the life of maybe a 40-year-old.
[38:31] How old are you?
[38:32] Noelle: I'm 39.
[38:33] Letitia: All right.
[38:34] In my mind, before I look in the mirror, I'm you.
[38:39] And I'm, I'm, as my husband would say, "Golda, you're glass." I am going,
[38:45] and, and I'm, and, and knowing what I know that I've learned from so many
[38:50] excellent horsemen, and scientists, and horses, um, I mean, we have over 10,000
[38:57] people riding our saddles right now, and many more utilizing the interface
[39:02] which will help any saddle be better.
[39:04] Dr. Peters did a research project.
[39:06] Noelle: He did.
[39:07] Letitia: Yeah.
[39:07] Noelle: You worked with Dr. Steven Peters, who was
[39:09] Letitia: one of my- At his request.
[39:10] I mean, we c- we can't do research and be credible because
[39:13] we would have a bias, right?
[39:15] Noelle: Correct.
[39:16] Letitia: So it's when someone like Riddle University in England calls me, or Steve
[39:20] Peters, and says, "I'm gonna do research.
[39:22] I'm gonna understand what you're saying, and see if I can see that, and we can
[39:26] replicate it enough times to have some scientific data that will be respected."
[39:32] Noelle: So what did Dr. Steven Peters find in his research?
[39:35] Letitia: Basically, he, uh, he, um, set up a, a program of nine horses, three
[39:42] riders, riding three different ways.
[39:44] Riding their own saddle, be it custom-made or store-bought And pad their own saddle
[39:52] with our pad and shims Mm-hmm And then he said, "I wanna do your saddle and pad
[39:58] and shims." And I said, "Okay, I won't interfere with your research, but I
[40:03] would wanna be there to make sure I set up the pad and shim interface properly
[40:07] for their saddle as well as my saddle.
[40:11] Will that be all right?" And he said, "Yes, you can.
[40:13] You can't influence the judges in any way, but you can set it up.
[40:16] That's fair." So then that, that meant that every day he saddled horses 27
[40:22] times, 'cause all three riders rode all three scenarios at different
[40:26] times of the day, so he didn't want-
[40:28] Noelle: Yeah, 'cause
[40:28] Letitia: you have to remove-
[40:29] any of the s- r- random-
[40:30] Noelle: You have to remove as much influence in the result as possible.
[40:33] Right Which requires, like, temperature and r- the li-
[40:36] like, the warmth of the muscle.
[40:38] Right And so much goes into that
[40:39] Letitia: R- right.
[40:40] And the ti- I m- you … At, at least you have to change the times
[40:43] and the rotation of each horse- Yeah
[40:45] and each rider.
[40:45] Yeah.
[40:45] It
[40:45] Noelle: was quite- Correlation-
[40:47] Letitia: Mm-hmm
[40:47] … Noelle: we ta- I talked about this with Peter Wyld about- Yeah … the four
[40:50] horse rider jump, like the ride-off when we had in the World Equestrian Games.
[40:53] Letitia: Mm-hmm.
[40:54] Noelle: Correlation influences result, so it's-
[40:58] Letitia: Ooh, I have to wrap my mind around that.
[40:59] I'm-
[40:59] Noelle: Because when we used to have a rider jump, like when we
[41:02] used to have a ride-off in the World Equestrian Games for showjumping- Okay
[41:06] the person that rides before will influence-
[41:09] Letitia: Okay
[41:09] … Noelle: the ride on that same horse the next time round.
[41:11] Mm. This is when people would switch horses.
[41:13] But this is not, this is not a relevant-
[41:15] Letitia: Mm
[41:15] … Noelle: uh, format anymore.
[41:17] But Peter Wyld talks very specifically about correlation
[41:21] has a big impact on the horse.
[41:23] What happens before and what happens after will res- will, will
[41:26] affect the horse's performance.
[41:27] So that's what Dr. Steven Piers is trying to address in that research.
[41:30] Letitia: Everything means something.
[41:31] Nothing means nothing.
[41:32] And so it's- … it's, it's hard to cram it all in even in three days.
[41:37] But 27
[41:38] Noelle: saddlings.
[41:38] Wow.
[41:39] Letitia: Every day for three days, and then all, and the judges, um,
[41:43] uh, took notes based on a scorecard.
[41:46] He, he asked for help with it.
[41:48] He wanted me to utilize six of the ethogram PAIN principles by Dr. Sue Dyson.
[41:55] And I said, "Those make great sense for her exercise.
[42:01] But for this exercise, there's got to be some subjectivity.
[42:04] You're gonna have to have judges who can take a look at a horse's posture.
[42:08] Is the, is the head nodding up?
[42:10] Is he inverted?"
[42:12] Or not, as well as swishing tail and, um, other evidence of irritation and whatnot.
[42:17] There, there's gonna have to be an ability.
[42:20] And so I d- I drew a drawing of the two, a dolphin and a upside-down
[42:26] banana kind of horse, and that was part of the score sheet so that
[42:31] they could make that determination.
[42:33] And, and he thought that, that really, really worked.
[42:36] So there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of data points
[42:40] by the time the three days was up, and he calculated them all.
[42:43] And basically, it boiled down to, with our interface system,
[42:49] their saddles were 50% better.
[42:52] These are the relative numbers.
[42:53] With our saddle and pad, they were 100% better.
[42:57] And, and then there was the baseline of the, the negative
[43:00] marks from their saddle and pad.
[43:02] Noelle: Wow.
[43:02] Letitia: So tho- those are the… That's correlative.
[43:04] You can talk with him about it, and he would share that research sheet if anybody
[43:08] wanted to do it because we… And I'm, I'm really would be excited for other people
[43:13] to do research along these lines and give us feedback because I know what the horses
[43:18] are saying, and we want more people to, to realize it so that, again, before I
[43:24] croak, more horses will have the chance-
[43:28] Noelle: To be more comfortable in a
[43:29] Letitia: saddle
[43:29] to be more comfortable.
[43:31] Noelle: Let's talk about your pads because the concept really blew my brain, and
[43:36] like I s- I just… I mentioned earlier, like I really just could not imagine
[43:41] riding my horses without the pad system, the shim system that you work with.
[43:47] So let's explain to everybody.
[43:48] Letitia: Okay.
[43:48] Noelle: And we do have the s- your Therm-a-Rest pad as
[43:52] Letitia: well- See, these are-
[43:52] which I think is great … yeah, are two, two pads.
[43:55] Um, these have been manufactured since, um, well, over 25 years.
[44:01] Um, Alan Brownley was the brainchild, um, of this, and he had a relationship with
[44:09] the Therm-a-Rest factory, and this- And
[44:11] Noelle: you guys are the only company in the horse world, right, that works with
[44:15] Letitia: Therm-a-Rest.
[44:16] That's right.
[44:16] When Alan died, he asked me to, um, take over his company, which
[44:20] was quite an honor, but it's like a miniature camping mattress.
[44:25] Noelle: Yeah.
[44:26] Letitia: It sucks in its own air, and these are, are in the, the, uh, pockets of
[44:33] several of our pads, Western and English.
[44:35] Here's what it looks like with no air, and you wouldn't wanna ride with that.
[44:40] There would be no cushioning at all.
[44:42] Noelle: Yes.
[44:42] Letitia: And it sucks in
[44:45] Noelle: So cool
[44:46] … Letitia: its own air.
[44:48] Okay?
[44:49] And you wouldn't wanna ride with that much air.
[44:51] That's too much.
[44:52] Air can be hard.
[44:52] You'd be a little bit bouncy.
[44:54] Noelle: Yeah.
[44:54] Letitia: So if you leave the valves open, put your saddle on your horse, and close
[44:58] the valves before you tighten the cinch very tight, you end up with a lovely-
[45:03] Noelle: It's so, like-
[45:04] Letitia: auto dynamic cushion
[45:05] … Noelle: and I can tell everybody, like, when I, 'cause I've,
[45:09] again, done a lot of camping.
[45:11] If you've slept on a camping pad, you know that there's, like, this
[45:15] sensation that it accommodates your, depending on how much air is in it,
[45:20] it accommodates your body weight.
[45:22] Yeah.
[45:22] And so this idea that there could be something that in, that was an
[45:25] interface between my weight and my horse's back and my horse's body,
[45:29] something that could move with us- Mm-hmm
[45:32] and create, like, what I would consider, like, it's, like,
[45:35] almost like a living, like-
[45:38] Letitia: Right
[45:38] … Noelle: like a, like a living saddle pad.
[45:40] Yeah.
[45:40] That's what I would call the-
[45:41] Letitia: That's a, that's a good way, yeah.
[45:42] I've, I've often said- That's what I would- … it's an auto
[45:44] dynamic cushion- But it's, it's a- … because it adjusts as it
[45:46] Noelle: goes along
[45:46] it's a living, your concept is- Yeah … that it's a living, breathing saddle pad.
[45:50] Letitia: Right.
[45:51] Then, not just the pad, well, where's, where's our other pad?
[45:55] Yeah.
[45:55] Ag- again, with, um M- many sizes.
[45:59] This is an English half pad, for instance Mm-hmm And we … I knew that some people
[46:05] just were not gonna have the patience.
[46:07] They would worry, "Am I getting it right with this Air Pad?
[46:09] I just don't wanna deal with the technology." So I thought, "We need,
[46:12] we need to help the horses by having an autodynamic cushion underneath the bars
[46:17] of the saddle that, um, protects them from, from impact and, and squeezing and
[46:24] all the things that saddle pads often do." And so lots and lots of testing of
[46:30] every pad on the market, and ultimately we settled on this as, um, a core, and it's
[46:38] an, it's a hypercell foam that starts out
[46:42] The western one is three-quarters of an inch thick, and it compresses to
[46:45] practically nothing, but it doesn't lose its impact deflection properties
[46:50] except by 2%, I think, fully compressed.
[46:53] But you could literally put your hand in here and have your horse stand
[46:56] on it and you would not feel pain.
[46:58] Noelle: And we did that.
[46:59] You actually- You did … did that demo with me, where you … I think I put my
[47:03] hand underneath and you stepped on it.
[47:04] Letitia: Yeah,
[47:05] Noelle: yeah.
[47:05] Like, you stepped on my
[47:06] Letitia: hand.
[47:06] You were, you were a game girl.
[47:07] You're the kind that tells people, "Step on my hand," and then-
[47:10] Yeah … maybe they, they do
[47:10] Noelle: it.
[47:10] I wanted to be like that mi- Yeah.
[47:12] I wanted to feel it for myself.
[47:13] Letitia: But it is ama- It's not just granny's memory foam.
[47:16] This is, this is really important.
[47:17] But anyway, no matter what we did in the cores of the pad that were designed
[47:23] to protect the horse and also adjust to movement as they went along, we
[47:29] realized, and again, getting back to my backpacking principle and how can
[47:33] we protect room for the shoulders, I had to have a tapered f- um, shim
[47:40] put in just the right place, which is essentially at the back swing point of
[47:45] the horse's scapula, behind that bulge.
[47:47] Mm-hmm.
[47:47] You got the bone, you got the bulge, and then behind the bulge, that's our
[47:50] third B, we put the lifting power of at least this small tapered foam shim,
[47:57] and then it tapers along the horse's body so he doesn't feel it, but that
[48:02] little bit of lift is a magical thing.
[48:06] Noelle: It, it really
[48:07] Letitia: is.
[48:07] It's a magical thing, and you never wanna ride without it.
[48:11] For instance, this is, this is our English tree.
[48:13] I th- I was, thought you might be curious, made of beech wood, the spring technology.
[48:18] Old-school materials, but still tried and true, with beautiful lateral flexion.
[48:24] But if you imagine the skeleton of the saddle of … This is, of
[48:28] course, of … And the shape of it is of primary importance to the, the,
[48:32] um, body of the saddle and its, its effectiveness on the horse's body.
[48:36] So these are built for the uplifted and expanded body, but they will still
[48:40] fall forward on the shoulders if you don't prop them up with a shim, and
[48:44] you don't wanna prop them up where many people do, with a shim in front.
[48:48] You put it back here-
[48:50] Noelle: To allow for the movement of the shoulder
[48:52] Letitia: So to allow for the movement of the shoulder.
[48:55] And with the Western, it's the same thing
[49:01] So Western bars flare out over the shoulder, and a lot of people think,
[49:04] "Oh, well, that's, the shoulder's already taken care of because the
[49:07] Western bars flare out." No, they don't.
[49:09] They still are gonna put pressure right here behind the scapula.
[49:13] So if you have the tapered foam shim
[49:16] Noelle: Why don't you use, you can actually use this, you can
[49:18] use your scapula right here- Yeah
[49:20] to show us.
[49:20] Letitia: Okay.
[49:22] So the scapula on a Western saddle You wanna feel for the back edge of
[49:27] the bone, and it's gonna, there's gonna be a concho right here.
[49:30] And the front one-third of the concho is gonna be right about
[49:32] where the back of the bone is.
[49:35] So where your knuckles curl over, that's how you know how to position your saddle.
[49:39] That would mean that you're, you've got about a hands breadth of space between the
[49:43] horse's elbow and the front of the cinch.
[49:45] You don't want the cinch right up in the armpit.
[49:47] We've got v- videos running on, uh, our website.
[49:49] Noelle: We'll include links in the show notes for all of those videos.
[49:52] Letitia: Okay.
[49:52] Okay.
[49:52] So then when the horse moves forward, the scapula moves back and all this muscle
[49:57] bulges, so that's how you redevelop what was a hole for some of these horses.
[50:02] Mm-hmm.
[50:03] Because when
[50:04] Noelle: they- But think that if you don't have this, if you don't, if you
[50:07] don't take into consideration creating space for the horse's movement to
[50:11] allow for full shoulder movement-
[50:13] Letitia: Right
[50:14] … Noelle: then they're gonna come up against-
[50:16] Letitia: The tree
[50:17] … Noelle: the tree, and it's gonna be like this, it's like th- like a closed door.
[50:21] Letitia: Exactly.
[50:21] Like,
[50:21] Noelle: you can't … And we're getting frustrated.
[50:22] To the whole
[50:23] Letitia: body.
[50:23] Noelle: Yeah.
[50:24] Letitia: Right?
[50:24] So, so once the shoulder gets locked, everything else starts to happen that
[50:28] we discussed, the rotating hips, the dropped belly, the elevated head.
[50:32] It's miserable.
[50:33] Plus, it's deteriorating to their body.
[50:35] You begin to see that hole and, and the angular hips instead of a nice
[50:39] round rump and all sorts of problems.
[50:41] Noelle: This is a great opportunity for you to give your tree
[50:43] house on a beach ball analogy.
[50:45] Oh, okay.
[50:45] Which I, which again, is really cool.
[50:47] I want you to explain it to everybody because- Yeah … I've
[50:51] been in this business my whole life.
[50:53] I've been riding horses competitively for, like, the majority of my life, and no one
[50:58] ever sat down and explained this to me.
[51:03] Letitia: Well, um, it, again, getting back to looking at my horse and the
[51:08] saddle that had been made for him by the best in the world, I looked at the front
[51:13] of it one day and I thought, "He isn't even a very big horse, but that looks
[51:19] like a birdhouse roof that I'm gonna be putting on a beach ball. It cannot
[51:23] fit. It looks like it's made for, um, maybe a rottweiler, but not a horse."
[51:30] Right.
[51:30] And if you look at, just look at the front of your saddle.
[51:33] Noelle: Yeah.
[51:33] Letitia: If it's pitched like this, it needs to be shaped more like
[51:37] this, more like a hug for their body.
[51:41] And then you prop it up a little bit, and you have the ability f- for that
[51:44] horse … I re- I really wanna send you a picture so that you can show
[51:48] it to your audience of a, of a horse standing naked who looks broken down.
[51:53] He's an off-the-track thoroughbred.
[51:55] It's, it's a picture I took years ago that helped me really grasp the power of this.
[52:01] He looks depleted.
[52:02] There's a hole behind the scapula.
[52:04] The neck is skinny The rump is angular, and he's standing there, and you think,
[52:10] "He needs rehabbing before we even saddle him." Well, his owner really wanted to
[52:13] take a test ride in one of our saddles.
[52:15] She saw me walk by and knew who she was, to, who I was, so I went to the
[52:21] truck, and I thought, "Oh, darn it.
[52:22] All I've got is one of our super wide saddles and this little guy."
[52:26] But the thing is, when I put it on, even with just minimal shimming,
[52:31] and she mounted, that horse came up underneath her as if to say, "You rang?"
[52:37] I mean, he became, he looked like a quarter horse.
[52:40] He looked round in the rump.
[52:41] He looked deep in the neck.
[52:42] It was an unbelievable aha moment, and I've seen it again and again.
[52:48] Noelle: And, you know, if Celeste Lazarus, my friend Celeste, is listening
[52:51] to this episode, and she'll be able to tell you, her, like the work that
[52:54] she does, she specifically does a lot of thoracic sling and body work.
[52:58] And after, like, I've done … We were testing it out with my horses, and
[53:02] I was learning from her how, like, her particular approach and method
[53:09] And she would tell you, and she's looked at thousands and thousands
[53:11] and thousands of horses, that a horse can change, like, in a day.
[53:16] Um, yeah.
[53:16] Now, they might go back.
[53:18] That's the thing.
[53:19] Yeah.
[53:19] It might not be permanent.
[53:21] But it's amazing, actually, how transformative a horse's body can
[53:26] be when activated in a different way, invited in a different way,
[53:31] ridden in a different way, presented- Yeah … just different parameters-
[53:36] Letitia: Yeah
[53:37] … Noelle: to their lived experience.
[53:38] It's amazing because they are such physically remarkable animals,
[53:44] and their muscular skeletal structure is so profound- It is
[53:49] that it is amazing.
[53:51] Like, I watched it in my own horses- Yeah … how their top
[53:54] lines could change in one session.
[53:56] This was doing like 20 to 30 minutes.
[53:59] Letitia: Yeah.
[53:59] Noelle: Right?
[53:59] Now, again, that's not permanent.
[54:02] The horses will then retur- like, they will slowly go back to what their
[54:08] current body composition is capable of until you build that over time.
[54:13] Right.
[54:13] You build correct, um, parameters.
[54:17] It's posture.
[54:18] It's posture.
[54:19] You've
[54:19] Letitia: got conformation and you have posture.
[54:21] Yeah.
[54:21] And they're not the same thing.
[54:22] Noelle: Which is why I think a lot of dancers, 'cause I've heard people
[54:27] there are a lot of dancers and dance-minded people that have found
[54:30] their way into the horse world, right?
[54:32] Letitia: Yeah.
[54:32] Noelle: And people then in the horse world discredit them, 'cause
[54:35] they're like, "What do they know?
[54:36] They're from the dancing community." But I would actually attest that if you have
[54:41] a deep, a good eye for posture and for, for how a body comes together in all
[54:47] of its movements and all of its parts- Mm-hmm … then you do have a particular
[54:52] advantage to how a horse can change and transform and exist in their own body,
[54:59] because their body is so interconnected.
[55:02] Letitia: Well, and of course they don't have the egos we do, but we've all
[55:05] stood in front of the mirror, right?
[55:06] And you can stand there slump-shouldered with your belly hanging out.
[55:10] Noelle: Yep.
[55:11] Letitia: And if you stand up and suck your belly button to your
[55:14] backbone and square your shoulders, you'll look like a different animal.
[55:17] Noelle: It's true.
[55:18] Right?
[55:18] It's so true.
[55:20] And that's the case for horses.
[55:21] Yeah.
[55:21] Letitia: And, and they don't do it, uh, for the reasons we would do it.
[55:25] They do it automatically because it's efficient.
[55:28] That's what I realized with this, when this gal mounted.
[55:31] It was, oh my goodness, that is a natural phenomenon.
[55:36] If there's room under there, the horse is gonna elevate and change its
[55:41] posture immediately, 'cause it's more efficient to carry weight that way.
[55:45] Noelle: Absolutely.
[55:46] And I still come back to this.
[55:48] I've, I've had so many people on the podcast, this is a consistent message.
[55:52] The horse's body wants to be in balance.
[55:56] Letitia: Yeah.
[55:56] Noelle: It wants to, because the more in balance it is, the more distributed the
[56:00] stress or the demand is on their body, the more comfortable they're able to be.
[56:07] And horses-
[56:08] Letitia: Is that with mental, emotional, and physical?
[56:09] That's the, the spring load to the sympathetic nervous
[56:12] system when uncomfortable.
[56:14] Noelle: Yes.
[56:14] Letitia: Or not.
[56:16] Noelle: And horses will always, you know, we know this about them as a species,
[56:20] they will go the path of least resistance.
[56:22] So if you create the accurate parameters for them to go in balance,
[56:26] they will happily go that way,
[56:28] Letitia: right?
[56:28] I feel much better about you as a partner, right?
[56:30] I see these people struggling against, against their horses'
[56:35] bodies, minds, and spirits, and they don't even know they're doing it.
[56:39] And, and this is a, this is a tool that can make a huge difference in
[56:44] a partnership and a way of going.
[56:47] Noelle: So I remember when we got together, I remember thinking after I'd
[56:50] understood even just your shim exper- like your shim design, I remember thinking,
[56:55] God, every single person, both in the English world and the Western world,
[56:57] needs to have your sh- your shim system.
[57:00] So Let's maybe, let's, let's include some information about how people
[57:04] can… What's the process to, to buying and understanding your shim system?
[57:10] Letitia: Oh, I'm really glad you asked that because I, I should have
[57:13] mentioned, we have a free saddle fit evaluation system that I designed
[57:18] years ago, and, and my team feels as I- as passionately as I do.
[57:21] We love to help people understand this and feel the difference it can make.
[57:26] So, um, on our website, and you'll probably put a link in, or you, you'll
[57:31] see free saddle fit evaluation at the top, and just send us a few pictures
[57:35] and a little bit of information, and we can recommend where you would put
[57:38] which of our three shapes of shims.
[57:40] We have three shapes and two thicknesses, and with that, you can
[57:44] fit every horse in the barn in all states of training, stages of training.
[57:49] Um, and so we'll recommend which one might be best for you.
[57:53] And we also will say, "You can have your money back if, for some reason,
[57:58] you think this doesn't work for you."
[57:59] We, we are so confident that you will feel your horse can give you
[58:04] a whole new gear, and your horse life can improve dramatically.
[58:08] We say, "Radical improvement guaranteed."
[58:12] Noelle: Yeah.
[58:13] And I want everyone, you know, as, and Leticia, you're just so passionate in the,
[58:17] in what you do, and this is important.
[58:19] I want everyone to know this is not a sponsored podcast.
[58:21] No, we- Like, I wanted you to come on here to- Thank you … explain this, yeah,
[58:25] to explain this s- explain what it is that you do and why it's important, and
[58:30] why it's been important for me, right?
[58:31] Why it's been an important, um, part of my journey.
[58:35] That's what I wanted to share with everybody.
[58:37] Letitia: Well, I am, I am really grateful.
[58:38] And, and, uh, and we don't sponsor riders, um, for that reason.
[58:44] I don't want anyone to think we are buying a relationship.
[58:48] Um, we-
[58:48] Noelle: Yeah, and that's a, you know, and that's a tricky thing … we st- Yeah.
[58:51] The economics of saddles- Mm-hmm … and saddle fitting is a… I think it's
[58:55] actually one of the most, like, non-talked about Uh, influencing factor, I think
[59:02] one of the most influencing factors in the industry is, you know, we, like, and
[59:06] in the, in the English world it's very true, and in the Western space it's very
[59:09] true, there are these huge brands that have a ton of money behind them, and a
[59:15] ton of power, and a ton of influence.
[59:16] And they have these contracts with trainers, and the trainers get… I
[59:20] was part of, I was part of programs like this where the trainer that I was
[59:24] working with had a relationship with a particular saddle fitter, or sorry, a
[59:28] saddle design and a saddle brand, and when you got into that program, they were
[59:32] like, "Oh, you have to have this saddle.
[59:33] That saddle you have doesn't fit." Then they get a- then
[59:36] they would get a kickback.
[59:37] So every single student that they had in their program would get
[59:40] a k- they, w- if they got their saddles that they worked with, then
[59:43] th- that trainer got a kickback.
[59:45] Yeah.
[59:45] And the economics and the infrastructure of the way saddles
[59:49] are, are sold and distributed- Yeah
[59:51] is this, like, this ghost in the darkness that people don't really realize is very-
[59:57] Yeah … influential in the experience that they're having with their horses.
[1:00:00] Interesting.
[1:00:01] That the person that recommended the saddle is your… You know, I know
[1:00:04] Brendan Wise has talked a lot about this.
[1:00:06] Mm-hmm.
[1:00:06] Like, make sure you have an independent saddle fitter.
[1:00:09] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:00:09] Noelle: Make sure you have a saddle fitter that is not influenced by one
[1:00:13] saddle maker over another, because people, for whatever reason, the
[1:00:18] cognitive dissonance of Selling a $10,000 saddle that is gonna cause pain
[1:00:25] to that horse, it's amazing that it happens, but it happens all the time
[1:00:29] Letitia: And our saddles are not up there, by the way, at that- No, but it's-
[1:00:32] at that price level
[1:00:33] … Noelle: it's, no, and they're not.
[1:00:34] Yeah.
[1:00:34] I don't want everyone to know that l- your, your saddles are not that way.
[1:00:37] If they were, I wouldn't be able to afford them.
[1:00:39] Um, and that's the truth, is I, I think that people need to look, you know,
[1:00:44] there are a lot of really smart and savvy people in the horse industry,
[1:00:47] um, but they sometimes don't realize that there's a ton of economics that's
[1:00:51] influencing the distribution of saddles.
[1:00:53] Yeah.
[1:00:53] It's not the integrity of those saddles.
[1:00:56] Letitia: Right, and there's tradition in there, too.
[1:00:57] And, and people, um, most people don't consciously, uh, want to do anything but
[1:01:03] wonderful things for, for their horse.
[1:01:05] There are some people out there who use them as tools to earn a ribbon,
[1:01:09] and we're, we're aware of that.
[1:01:11] But people don't know what they don't know, and so they're, they're kind of
[1:01:15] victims of tradition or barn peer pressure or, and therefore… And these young
[1:01:20] girls I see, all of a sudden there's a saddle brand that is fashionable,
[1:01:23] and boy, if you don't have that-
[1:01:25] Noelle: Yeah
[1:01:25] … Letitia: brand.
[1:01:26] So to foster independent thinking, you have to educate people to really know
[1:01:31] what their horse is trying to say.
[1:01:33] The, the horse's opinion is the one that, that, um, that matters the most,
[1:01:38] and people don't know how to seek it.
[1:01:40] And that's one of the things I l- I love about your podcast.
[1:01:42] I l- I love, as a matter of fact, I was watching Road to the Horse yesterday
[1:01:46] again, um, after having seen it last year, and I love the evolution of the judging-
[1:01:53] Noelle: That will-
[1:01:53] Letitia: compared to when I saw it years ago.
[1:01:55] There's much more interest in the horse's point of view.
[1:01:59] Noelle: And it's a- And that's- … lived experience.
[1:02:00] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:02:01] Noelle: How is it, yeah, and are the decisions being made
[1:02:03] in that round pen, are they in support of that horse's future?
[1:02:09] Mm-hmm.
[1:02:09] Right?
[1:02:09] Or-
[1:02:10] Letitia: Right … is it just- Is it-
[1:02:11] … Noelle: what's being done best on the day?
[1:02:13] Letitia: Yes.
[1:02:14] Yeah.
[1:02:15] Well, and this equipment is, the horse will tell you if you know what to look
[1:02:18] for, and that, we have so much education material on our website, and we can
[1:02:22] send downloadable, um, videos and, and checklist sheets and things to help orient
[1:02:29] you so you know what you're looking at.
[1:02:30] And you, you may genuinely not realize what your horse has been
[1:02:34] trying to tell you, and, um, we can show you easy ways to figure it out.
[1:02:39] Noelle: Okay, I'd identify that.
[1:02:40] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:02:40] Noelle: And I'm gonna, I wanna, as we wrap up, I want to, I wanna include
[1:02:44] a really important identifier that I think is really important that
[1:02:49] everyone who's listening or watching this episode can, can take away f- from
[1:02:54] this episode, which is- A horse's body changes, changes moment to moment, week
[1:03:00] to week, month to month, year to year.
[1:03:02] And I think something that I've come to really realize is that when we
[1:03:07] have a saddle fitted to our horse in that moment in time in their journey,
[1:03:12] you might… That saddle or that, that's, that, um, system that you have
[1:03:19] available for that horse at the time may not be appropriate in the future.
[1:03:22] And that's why I think your, your SHIM system is so important,
[1:03:26] is that I've watched my mare.
[1:03:28] Like, you imagine, I rescued her, and her body was a representation
[1:03:32] of her lived experience.
[1:03:33] She'd been in an abusive situations.
[1:03:35] She'd had poor-fitting, um, saddles.
[1:03:38] She had then been, um, not ridden for a long time, and she had had
[1:03:44] a very activated nervous system.
[1:03:46] She was in fight or flight constantly.
[1:03:48] So you imagine that her body was very much a reflection of that.
[1:03:51] And then every year that I have her with me and that we're learning how to not
[1:03:57] only re- rehabilitate her mind and her soul, but her bo- like her body as well,
[1:04:03] then my SHIM system is changing because she is becoming … She has more and
[1:04:08] more access to her, her body, and she has m- we're building up her top line.
[1:04:12] And, like, I've really come to believe that, like, if you have a
[1:04:15] downward, like, a downhill horse-
[1:04:17] Letitia: Mm-hmm
[1:04:17] … Noelle: you don't have to have a downhill horse forever.
[1:04:19] Letitia: No.
[1:04:20] Noelle: Like, I have, I have, I have living, breathing evidence-
[1:04:24] ' Letitia: Cause she can posture him- herself
[1:04:26] … Noelle: that you can rehabilitate your horse, and your horse's conformation.
[1:04:30] Like, you can only, obviously you can't, like, correct skeletal conformation,
[1:04:34] but you can absolutely change your body, your horse's entire body.
[1:04:38] And Brendan Wise talked about this.
[1:04:39] Mm. Working in different disciplines and how hor- a horse that he brought
[1:04:43] along in all different disciplines that he worked in, his horse's body changed
[1:04:47] and transformed, and did thing- did things that he couldn't even believe
[1:04:51] because the horse's body is magnificent.
[1:04:53] It's really remarkable.
[1:04:56] So that's why I also just wanna leave everybody with that, that
[1:04:59] your SHIM system is truly adaptive-
[1:05:03] Letitia: It is.
[1:05:03] … to
[1:05:04] Noelle: the horse's body moment to moment, week to week, month to month,
[1:05:07] year to year, and that's really important.
[1:05:09] And it's
[1:05:09] Letitia: simple-
[1:05:09] Noelle: Yeah
[1:05:10] … Letitia: to u- It's, it's really simple to use.
[1:05:12] And to, to get weight off The shoulder gets weight off the forehand, enables the
[1:05:19] horse to be able to elevate, which is what you want no matter what your discipline.
[1:05:24] You want less weight on the fore, less pounding on the forehand.
[1:05:28] It lasts longer, it's more comfortable to ride.
[1:05:30] And the interface, you, you were talking about saddles
[1:05:33] aren't talked about very much.
[1:05:35] Well, interface is talked about even less.
[1:05:37] Less.
[1:05:37] That's the fourth component that's kind of in the closet in people's
[1:05:41] minds, other than they think something fluffy underneath there, um, helps.
[1:05:47] And, um-
[1:05:48] Noelle: That's the truth
[1:05:48] … Letitia: an English saddle on top of just a thin quilt, and English saddle
[1:05:52] riders who think ride a saddle with no pad, they have no idea what that
[1:05:57] does to a horse's body compared to an auto-dynamic cushion that can compress
[1:06:03] to practically nothing but protect them.
[1:06:05] And then with the shim, this is the magic.
[1:06:08] It's really the magic.
[1:06:10] Noelle: Well, I think, I want… It's like, it makes me think that I would,
[1:06:14] if I were to, if, if all things were possible, and all the limitations of
[1:06:18] our, of our reality in this world was not, not present, then I would want a
[1:06:27] saddle that could move and shift the same way that a horse's body does, right?
[1:06:32] Right.
[1:06:32] And I would want, like you'd want it to be like Avatar, right?
[1:06:36] You'd want to be able to like think, like you'd want the horse's
[1:06:39] thoughts to be your thoughts and your thoughts to be the horse's thoughts.
[1:06:41] And anything that was an interface between you and, and that horse
[1:06:46] be as living and breathing as you
[1:06:48] Letitia: are.
[1:06:48] Right.
[1:06:48] It can't be static.
[1:06:49] And that- Versus this is flexible material.
[1:06:51] Yes.
[1:06:51] Just flexible enough to be in harmony.
[1:06:53] And the same with the English, um, on the, on the diagonal.
[1:06:57] E- exactly.
[1:06:58] But no matter, you c- you need weight distribution, so you need some substance.
[1:07:03] Noelle: Yes.
[1:07:04] Letitia: We, of course, um, did lots of research on everything on the market,
[1:07:07] including treeless saddles, and gated saddles, and this, that, and the other.
[1:07:13] Saddle.
[1:07:13] And, and we determined after many prototypes that there's a certain
[1:07:18] amount of substance that's required, so it can only be flexible to a degree.
[1:07:23] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:07:23] Letitia: But that with the interface is enough to be in total harmony, and
[1:07:27] that's what you felt, I m- I gather.
[1:07:29] Noelle: Well, and that's why I'm saying that if, okay, in a, in a perfect
[1:07:32] world, if no limitations in this reality were present, then I would want
[1:07:36] my saddle to move like water, right?
[1:07:39] Letitia: Hmm.
[1:07:39] Noelle: I'd want it to be like, like m- like I'd want it to move
[1:07:42] and breathe like water or like-
[1:07:44] Letitia: But your horse is carrying you, so it- Yeah … has to be.
[1:07:47] Noelle: But then what I'm saying that we, because the realities, because the
[1:07:50] restrictions of this reality are present- Mm … that material is material and-
[1:07:54] Mm-hmm … riding is riding, then I think what you've created in your shim system
[1:08:00] to me is, is, is to date the closest that I've seen to a living saddle pad.
[1:08:06] Mm. A living and breathing saddle pad that you actually has what,
[1:08:11] what I'd call like a m- a, an, a living and breathing interface.
[1:08:15] That's the best way that I can describe it.
[1:08:17] Letitia: Mm-hmm.
[1:08:17] Yeah, I like that.
[1:08:17] I like that.
[1:08:19] I like that.
[1:08:20] Noelle: As we kinda come to a close on our episode, I'll, I'm really excited
[1:08:23] to ask you our rapid fire questions.
[1:08:25] These are the same questions I ask all my guests.
[1:08:27] Letitia: Okay.
[1:08:28] Noelle: And I'm excited to hear your answers.
[1:08:30] If you could read one book to the horse world, what would it be?
[1:08:34] Letitia: Well, apparently I have to read, um-
[1:08:36] Noelle: Black Beauty
[1:08:37] … Letitia: Black Beauty.
[1:08:38] I never read Black Beauty, and I did not re- and I can't believe
[1:08:41] it 'cause I read all the Farley books and Misty of Chincoteague
[1:08:45] and all of that back in the 1950s.
[1:08:48] How did I miss Black Beauty?
[1:08:49] But you tell me that's from the horse's perspective.
[1:08:52] My gosh, and that was an earth-shaking book?
[1:08:55] I'm an-
[1:08:55] Noelle: It
[1:08:56] Letitia: is … how'd I miss that?
[1:08:58] Wow.
[1:08:59] Noelle: Well, we're all
[1:09:00] Letitia: like- Maybe I would've had a horse before I was 47.
[1:09:03] Hmm.
[1:09:03] Noelle: I think, I think, well, The Black Stallion is an, is an amazing
[1:09:07] book, and I know that that was a highly influential book for you.
[1:09:10] I think-
[1:09:10] Letitia: Well, because it was the time in life- Yeah … you know, my first horsey
[1:09:13] book, and it, it just ignited a fire.
[1:09:15] But I, I love what you told me about Black Beauty when we talked about that earlier.
[1:09:20] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:09:21] I think Anna Sewell, what she created, I think it's, like, probably one of
[1:09:24] the, in my opinion, I mean, again, it's totally biased because I, my life is
[1:09:28] animal oriented and horse oriented.
[1:09:29] Yeah.
[1:09:29] But I would say that what Anna Sewell did in The Black Beauty is one of the
[1:09:34] most profound pieces of literature.
[1:09:35] Well,
[1:09:35] Letitia: I can't, right, and there are many, many other books.
[1:09:37] I'm currently reading Steve Peters.
[1:09:39] Okay.
[1:09:39] A new one, too.
[1:09:40] Noelle: And I've said this to a lot of people, like, if you have a chance to
[1:09:42] read any book, please read, read Dr.
[1:09:44] Steven Peters' books- Yeah … about equine neuroscience and the research
[1:09:47] about how our horses' brains work and function because it is really, again,
[1:09:52] just it breaks your brain in the best way.
[1:09:53] Yeah.
[1:09:54] Letitia: By the way, d- I must tell you, after that research, he
[1:09:57] called me and said, "I realize I have to buy one of your saddles."
[1:10:00] He said, "I didn't wanna buy a saddle." But I have to.
[1:10:04] Oh, good.
[1:10:05] So that, that was really good.
[1:10:06] Noelle: So Dr. Steven Peters is also a fan of your, of your work.
[1:10:10] Letitia: Yes, he is.
[1:10:11] I'm grateful.
[1:10:12] Noelle: Who is the most iconic horse in history?
[1:10:18] Letitia: My first horse for me What was the name?
[1:10:21] Because, because he was my f- for other… Somebody handed me a
[1:10:27] two-year-old stallion, and I thought I could train dogs pretty well.
[1:10:30] That would be no problem.
[1:10:31] Mm. And I learned a lot, and it's because of him that I started
[1:10:36] on this saddle journey, journey.
[1:10:38] Noelle: And what was his name?
[1:10:39] Letitia: His name was Echo.
[1:10:41] Echo Cabal.
[1:10:43] Yeah.
[1:10:45] Noelle: What is the most undervalued skill as a rider?
[1:10:49] Letitia: Understanding how to marry your saddle equipment to your horse's body.
[1:10:56] Noelle: I love that.
[1:10:58] Who is the greatest horseman or horsewoman in history?
[1:11:02] Letitia: Wow.
[1:11:03] I don't think I can answer that.
[1:11:05] I've, I have, I have met many.
[1:11:09] I, I respect the work of so many.
[1:11:13] S- certainly the Pirellis, certainly the, uh, Tick Maynard and, and,
[1:11:18] um… I have a, I'm grateful to have a whole list, and I should
[1:11:24] probably publish them on our website-
[1:11:26] Noelle: You should
[1:11:26] … Letitia: of horsemen that I've had a chance to work with.
[1:11:30] And, um, you know, uh, Ty Murray.
[1:11:32] For Ty Murray to say to Buck Brannaman, "Buck, you ought to ride one of
[1:11:37] Letitia's saddles, 'cause it's the finest saddle I ever r- rode in my life."
[1:11:40] He was standing here when Buck was here, and, and I, I thought,
[1:11:44] "That is astounding." Mm. He was nine times All-Around Cowboy.
[1:11:49] B- people say there will never be anyone in history like him.
[1:11:54] Started the PBR with his friends.
[1:11:56] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:11:57] Letitia: Of course, trying to bring humanity to the rodeo world,
[1:12:00] that's quite a hill for a stepper.
[1:12:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:12:02] Letitia: But, um,
[1:12:04] Noelle: It's like you're the greatest kept secret, Letitia.
[1:12:06] Well And now this podcast is gonna, like… Because, I mean, it's true.
[1:12:10] Like, you, you can y- the, the, the number of riders that you've
[1:12:13] worked with, and I really hope-
[1:12:15] Letitia: A- and I've named just a few.
[1:12:17] I mean, I'm, it's kind of embarrassing.
[1:12:19] I am, I'm, I'm humbled to have been in their sphere, and, and
[1:12:23] they've taught me many things.
[1:12:25] I haven't had enough chance to ride myself 'cause I'm at the computer, but that's
[1:12:28] what it takes to be on this journey.
[1:12:31] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:12:31] They've- The sacrifices that we make, right?
[1:12:33] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:12:33] But
[1:12:34] Noelle: I'm really excited.
[1:12:34] I'm hoping that this, this podcast, and I'm hoping that the, that, that my
[1:12:39] experience can also help a lot of the English world learn about your work.
[1:12:42] Letitia: Yes.
[1:12:43] I'm, I'm really grateful that, that Tick, along the way, was, uh, generously
[1:12:49] offered… Uh, actually, I, I asked him, and he accepted the opportunity
[1:12:55] to test ride some of our saddles as I was developing the English line.
[1:12:59] Yeah.
[1:12:59] And he was always willing.
[1:13:01] And um, I always noticed that he had a hole behind the scapula on some,
[1:13:05] some horses, but I appreciated that.
[1:13:08] Noelle: And the last question Is mares, stallions, or geldings?
[1:13:13] Letitia: Oh, golly.
[1:13:14] I've owned both and, and, uh-
[1:13:17] Noelle: Or
[1:13:19] Letitia: all three.
[1:13:19] Uh, oh- Mares, stallions, geldings … I, yeah, I've, I've, I've owned all three.
[1:13:21] Yeah.
[1:13:21] Noelle: The
[1:13:22] Letitia: sta-
[1:13:22] Noelle: I
[1:13:22] Letitia: did have the stallion gelded, um, along the way fairly early.
[1:13:26] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:13:26] Letitia: Um, yeah.
[1:13:28] And right now my, um, the one of my five that is still alive is, is
[1:13:33] 17, and he lives with a stallion.
[1:13:35] They are, they are buddies.
[1:13:36] And because my quarter horse is bossed by just that much, the stallion gets
[1:13:41] to have a life and, and live in a pasture and have a good, a good life.
[1:13:45] So I, I think geldings have been the easiest for me.
[1:13:50] My mare was the most challenging.
[1:13:51] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[1:13:52] Letitia: She was a rocket ship to the moon.
[1:13:53] But, um, there couldn't be a finer feeling than blasting
[1:13:57] over the Rocky Mountains on her.
[1:13:59] Noelle: Right.
[1:14:00] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:14:01] So, um-
[1:14:02] Noelle: Going to a- There I go … and beyond with a mare- Yeah … I think
[1:14:05] is probably one of the most amazing feelings that I've ever felt in my life.
[1:14:08] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:14:09] It's, uh, they, they give you their permission More difficult
[1:14:13] and a more, more of a process.
[1:14:16] You have to earn their permission-
[1:14:18] Noelle: Yes
[1:14:18] … Letitia: more than, than a gelding.
[1:14:21] And of course, a stallion has his own mind-
[1:14:24] Noelle: Right
[1:14:24] … Letitia: occupied and I don't have that much experience.
[1:14:26] Noelle: So much hot water.
[1:14:26] Stallions are amazing, but they do require- Yeah … an extra,
[1:14:29] extra level of experience.
[1:14:30] Letitia: Yeah.
[1:14:32] But earning the mare's approval is a ta- is more of a challenge, or has been in my,
[1:14:36] I'm very limited, very limited ownership.
[1:14:39] Noelle: Well, Letitia, thank you so much for
[1:14:42] Letitia: coming on the podcast.
[1:14:43] Thank you.
[1:14:44] Thank you for, um, recognizing what you recognized and- Yeah … and,
[1:14:48] um, and acknowledging it.
[1:14:50] I'm r- I really appreciate you, Noelle.
[1:14:52] Noelle: Absolutely.
[1:14:53] Letitia: Thank you.
[1:14:56] Noelle: If the access and insight of this podcast makes you want to
[1:14:59] go deeper and actually apply these ideas with your own horses, NF+ is
[1:15:05] where I've brought together some of the best riders, trainers, horsemen,
[1:15:10] horsewomen, sports psychologists, and practitioners in the horse world.
[1:15:17] Inside the NF+ app, you'll find more than 70 masterclass courses on
[1:15:22] the challenges so many of us face.
[1:15:25] Spooky horses, finding a distance, developing a better canter,
[1:15:30] developing feel, navigating fear and anxiety, or becoming a more
[1:15:35] thoughtful rider and horse person.
[1:15:38] Our instructors include Tick Maynard, Will Coleman, Carl Cook, Peter Wyld, Dr.
[1:15:45] Jenny Susser, Anne Kozinski, and so many more.
[1:15:52] I created NF+ as a safe, thoughtful place to learn at your own pace with teachers
[1:16:00] and riders who have a wealth of knowledge.
[1:16:04] You can explore more at noellefloydplus.com or find the link
[1:16:09] to download the app in the show notes.

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