# What Your Horse's Nervous System Reveals About Trust and Liberty with Kaleigh Marie - Sponsored by Triple Crown Feeds

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 6 May 2026, 1 h 29 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/Kaylee_Marie_Final_Audio.mp3?dest-id=4715857

Liberty trainer and Braveheart Beasts founder Kaleigh Marie shares how training oxen, mammoth donkeys, and mules before ever seriously working with horses shaped everything she knows about connection, trust, and the nervous system. Kaleigh Marie is a liberty trainer and performer based in the Northeast who has spent the last decade developing a nervous system-informed approach to horsemanship rooted in connection, positive reinforcement, and the foundational lessons she learned working with cattle, donkeys, and mules long before horses became her focus. In this episode you will learn: • Why Kaleigh's foundation in training oxen and mammoth donkeys gave her a unique edge with horses • What "conversational quality" means and how it shows up in your relationship with your horse • Why donkeys ask "why should I?" — and why that's actually a gift to any trainer • How the nervous system underlies everything from leg aids to liberty work • The honest story of how clicker training almost derailed her liberty performances — and what she rebuilt from the ground up • The difference between expectation and intention when you're struggling in a session • What to do when you're not showing up as the trainer you want to be • Why dull horses are often the most sensitive ones — and how they got that way • The "backpack" concept and how co-regulation with your horse actually works • Why self-regulation — for both horse and human — matters more than connection To find out more about Kaleigh Marie: website | instagram | facebook This episode is sponsored by Triple Crown Feeds The secret to raising a healthy horse begins with nutrition that goes beyond. The team at Triple Crown is dedicated to helping our customers succeed by understanding your horse's unique needs and working to develop the right feeding program for the horse you love. www.triplecrownfeed.com | instagram.com/triplecrownfeed | facebook.com/TripleCrownFeed | youtube.com/@triplecrownfeeds If you love honest conversations about horsemanship, trust, and the ongoing practice of becoming a better horse person, subscribe for more. Chapters: 00:00 Meet Kaylee Marie 01:10 Road to the Horse Memories 03:38 First Meeting with Tik 08:12 Braveheart Beasts Origins 08:31 Farm Kid to Oxen Trainer 13:07 Riding Cows and Controversy 18:39 Back to Horses and Draft Life 20:16 Mammoth Donkeys in the City 24:01 Connection and Motivation Lessons 8:05 Conversational Quality Explained 32:22 Nervous System Awakening 38:31 Rescue Rehab and Roman Story 45:18 First Q&A Reset as a Trainer 47:30 Gut Brain Connection 48:27 One Percent Better 48:55 Expectation Versus Intention 51:44 Stop And Regulate 53:28 Co Regulation Release 56:41 Leg Aid Without Fight 58:40 Sensitivity Versus Expression 01:00:46 Rehab Dull Horses 01:04:17 Clicker Training Ethics 01:09:42 Rock Bottom Without Food 01:15:47 Pressure And Resilience 01:18:53 Clicker For Quality 01:22:10 Keep Learning Through Pain 01:24:03 Rapid Fire Favorites 01:28:23 Final Thanks And Wrap Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments. https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!

## Transcript

[0:00] Noelle: Kaylee Marie is one of those trainers you've probably seen and
[0:04] thought, "Wait, how is that even real?" Liberty performances with horses
[0:11] laying on their backs, galloping in formation, completely relaxed while
[0:16] doing things you'd expect in a movie.
[0:19] The horses don't look forced.
[0:22] They're just with her, and it makes you wonder what she's
[0:26] doing differently to create that level of trust and partnership.
[0:32] Kaylee and I get into why horses check out, ignore your leg, or feel
[0:38] different depending on the day, and how that ties back to responsiveness,
[0:45] trust, and the nervous system.
[0:48] From training oxen and donkeys to rebuilding everything she thought she
[0:54] knew, this episode gets into what's really driving your horse's behavior.
[1:05] Kaleigh Marie: Kaylee, welcome to the Dear Horse Girl Podcast.
[1:07] Thank you so much for having me.
[1:09] I'm so excited to be here.
[1:10] Noelle: Okay, so I, I'm gonna premise by saying that I learned
[1:15] about you... I mean, we met at Road to the Horse the first year I went.
[1:18] Mm-hmm.
[1:19] Um, I believe we were at one of Dan James' parties.
[1:23] Yes.
[1:23] That was wild.
[1:24] That was a wild time.
[1:25] No one warned me about that.
[1:27] Fire-breathing included.
[1:28] No one warned me.
[1:30] I was like, "This is like nothing..." And I've seen a lot, and that was- Mm-hmm
[1:35] ... that was a, that was the first- A
[1:36] Kaleigh Marie: memorable experience
[1:37] Noelle: It was.
[1:37] Yeah.
[1:38] You're burned in my memory.
[1:39] Quite literally.
[1:40] Yeah.
[1:41] Yeah.
[1:43] Oh, my God.
[1:43] Okay.
[1:44] But actually, I wanna bring up how Tick Maynard talked about you.
[1:48] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[1:50] Noelle: Which was, I was asking him, and I was like, "Who do I
[1:52] want?" Like, I wanna learn about liberty, and I really wanna learn.
[1:56] Um, and he knows how I feel about, you know, like, my
[1:59] relationship with my horses.
[2:01] Mm-hmm.
[2:01] And he... And I'm, and I'm not, I wouldn't... Ironically, like, given
[2:05] that we have an education platform-
[2:06] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[2:07] Noelle: I am someone, I feel like I'm a really slow learner.
[2:09] Mm. I don't feel like I'm a particularly fast learner, and I, um... So it
[2:14] was, I need, I wanted someone who was gonna be, like, really... And I think
[2:18] this is gonna be cool, 'cause we're gonna talk about nervous system work.
[2:20] Kaleigh Marie: Mm. It's okay.
[2:21] Noelle: I have a super sensitive nervous system, and I- Yeah
[2:24] I think one of the things that Tick really was thoughtful and about when he talked
[2:29] about you was just- Mm ... like, how safe and, and welcoming and- Mm ... like,
[2:35] c- like, nervous system informed your teaching is, which I didn't know that.
[2:40] 'Cause if someone were- Really ... to watch you run, whoa, think about it.
[2:42] If someone were to watch you gallop in on three horses or
[2:45] two horses into a stand-up- Yeah
[2:47] like, full movie- movie stunt rider style, right?
[2:50] Yeah.
[2:50] With, like, huge, you know, like, this massive dress and the horses are like- Mm
[2:55] ... you know, galloping around the arena.
[2:56] If you were like, "That person does a ton of nervous system work," you'd
[3:00] be like- Maybe ... "Really?" I can see the, the disconnect there, yeah.
[3:03] Well, it makes- Yeah
[3:04] sense when you think about it.
[3:05] Mm. But one of the things, Tick said that not only are you just incredibly excited
[3:10] and enthusiastic and passionate- Mm ... about liberty, he also said that if there
[3:15] was a hor- He said... I said, "Who..." Actually, the question I had for him was,
[3:19] "If I were to send my horses to someone,
[3:24] anyone, if I were to send them away, so I have to trust that that person is
[3:27] gonna do right by my horses," he said, "Oh, Kaeli Marie, without a doubt."
[3:30] Wow.
[3:31] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[3:31] Tick, thank you.
[3:32] Noelle: Yeah.
[3:33] Kaleigh Marie: My goodness.
[3:34] There will be- So why do you think he said that?
[3:36] In 51.87.
[3:38] Well, my mind jumps immediately back to the first time I met Tick in person.
[3:44] He and I connected through a student of mine back when I
[3:47] was based in the Northeast.
[3:49] Mm-hmm.
[3:50] And she had met him at one of his book signings.
[3:52] She had been a huge fan, and I had heard of Tick, but I hadn't come
[3:55] across a lot of his work, and she had promoted me to him- Mm ... because
[3:59] she's a, a wonderful person.
[4:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[4:02] Kaleigh Marie: And he had sent her home with a napkin with
[4:04] his phone number and Braveheart Beast with a heart underneath it.
[4:07] Oh, my.
[4:07] Which was so, so sweet, and had told her, "Have her reach out to me.
[4:11] I'd, I'd love to talk to her." Yeah.
[4:12] So I, throughout my entire learning experience with, with horses and just as
[4:17] a person, I love reaching out to people randomly on the off chance that they might
[4:21] want to connect, and we can talk and I can learn from them and, and maybe, possibly,
[4:26] they can learn something from me.
[4:28] And so I took this number and I reached out to Tick, and we connected on the phone
[4:32] for, uh, a fairly brief conversation, and he just mentioned, "If you're ever
[4:37] in the Ocala, Citra area, you should come by my farm." And it was probably
[4:44] close to, I don't know, six or eight months from that phone call where I
[4:48] found myself in the Florida, yeah, area.
[4:51] And I reached out to him and was like, "Tick, I'm, I'm in the area.
[4:54] Can I come by and visit?" He's like, "Yes, absolutely." And I... It was New
[4:59] Year's actually, so I went to their farm for a New Year's party, and then spent,
[5:03] uh, it was about two days with them, with Tick in particular, after this party.
[5:08] And when I arrived at the farm, 'cause I went to the party, um, left, I was
[5:13] staying with somebody else at the time, and a day or two later came back and
[5:16] rolled up to the farm in an Uber, stepped out of the Uber with my suitcase, and
[5:20] Tick is in the round pen with this huge, gorgeous black gelding, Galileo.
[5:24] Yeah.
[5:24] And I just walk up to the round pen as you do, and I'm, I'm watching
[5:27] him work this horse from the ground.
[5:29] Uh, and he, you know, acknowledges that I'm there, and then he
[5:31] waves me into the round pen.
[5:32] He's like, "Come on, try this horse." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Tick Mayner
[5:36] is letting me work one of his horses.
[5:37] This is amazing." And I go in and we start on the halter and lead rope, and
[5:40] then he's like, "Take the halter off.
[5:42] Play at liberty." And he watches me for five or 10 minutes
[5:45] and is like, "You look great.
[5:46] I'll be back." And he goes to get another horse and for the rest of
[5:49] the day we just work horses together.
[5:51] Uh, and he's asking me questions about how I would approach things, and it was
[5:54] one of those humbling moments where the, the work that I had seen from him up until
[6:01] that point, because after our phone call I was like, "I have to check this guy out."
[6:04] He really, he has a, a quality to him, like such a genuine
[6:09] kindness- Mm-hmm ... that inspires curiosity about what he does.
[6:13] Like, the, the work that he does physically is, is fantastic, but
[6:17] watching it, like witnessing it, there's something about it that just
[6:21] generates this desire to know more.
[6:23] And so I, I had seen more and more before I, I went to his farm in
[6:27] Florida, and to have this experience of this person that when he witnessed
[6:32] just who I was, genuinely stepping into the round pen of like, "Okay, I
[6:35] have no idea what this horse knows.
[6:37] I'm just gonna work with this horse and try to pretend that nobody's watching me
[6:41] ," you know, to be as authentic as possible.
[6:43] To have somebody like him witness just my genuine approach and feel, and immediately
[6:49] give me a massive vote of confidence, he has in, in just that way of, of, in his
[6:57] action, the way that, that he speaks to me, 'cause this isn't the first time I've
[7:00] heard feedback, um, from people having received feedback from him that was
[7:04] very, very kind about the work that I do.
[7:07] I think receiving those votes of confidence is just, is just huge.
[7:11] Uh, and since then we've been friends and, you know the horse world, it's
[7:16] big and small at the same time.
[7:17] Totally.
[7:17] So we always connect in, in the circles that we're in.
[7:20] Eventually we come across each other.
[7:21] So yeah, that's really, that's really meaningful.
[7:24] Noelle: Mm. Really
[7:25] Kaleigh Marie: meaningful.
[7:25] Noelle: Isn't it nice to receive- Yeah ... a compliment like that,
[7:27] or like a vote of confidence.
[7:28] Absolutely.
[7:29] Even more than a compliment.
[7:29] Kaleigh Marie: The- Compliment is like one thing ... the vote of
[7:31] confidence is what, is what really is affirming to me- Especially coming
[7:37] from somebody who knows what goes into really connection-based work.
[7:43] Yeah.
[7:43] Nervous system informed work.
[7:44] Like, to, to have somebody that can see the path that I'm on, I, I feel there are
[7:50] people that can see the path that you're on even more so than you do sometimes.
[7:53] Oh, yeah.
[7:53] Sure.
[7:53] Like I, I know where she's headed, and she's headed in a great direction.
[7:57] It's like a breath of relief of like, phew, okay.
[8:00] There's, there's ... It's almost a check mark on the path of like, okay-
[8:03] Yeah ... I've reached this point and, and where I am now, where I'm headed, I
[8:06] know that I'm headed in a good direction.
[8:10] So that's just really meaningful.
[8:11] Noelle: Okay.
[8:12] So before we dive in, 'cause this is a No Stupid Questions episode-
[8:14] Yeah ... and I'm so excited- I love it
[8:15] 'cause I think our community has lots of really cool questions for you.
[8:18] So cool.
[8:19] But I want you to share with everyone, because when we
[8:21] started I said, "Okay, where did Braveheart Beasts come from?" Yeah.
[8:24] You said, "Well, actually it came from the fact that I was, like,
[8:26] working not just with horses."
[8:28] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[8:28] Noelle: Can you, like, share that a little bit with
[8:30] Kaleigh Marie: everybody?
[8:31] Ab- absolutely, and this is a pretty big piece of my identity I feel like
[8:37] as a, a horse trainer, is the fact that I did not start training horses.
[8:41] I was born obsessed with horses, as most of us were, uh, into a family that
[8:46] had nothing to do with them at all.
[8:49] Yeah.
[8:49] I was just the odd one out, and since I was a very little girl was
[8:52] determined to be involved with them- Mm
[8:55] to whatever extent I could be.
[8:57] And growing up in Vermont in a tiny little farm town, there's a local riding
[9:02] stable where I started riding when I was, like, four or five years old.
[9:05] But my first opportunity to really immerse myself in animal culture was
[9:11] a dairy farm about 10 minutes from my, from my childhood home, and I
[9:16] started working there when I was 11 years old actually because of a barn
[9:20] cat, a little kitten that was sick.
[9:23] We had stopped there to bring sweet corn home.
[9:26] This is like a, a Hallmark movie- I'm gonna say ... if you've ever heard one.
[9:30] Uh, and there's this tiny little cat that was so sick, and my mom was
[9:34] like, "You can't bring it home, but you can ask the farmer if you can
[9:36] come back to take care of it." And I was the most socially awkward kid,
[9:41] so, like, terrified of this 6'4" tall gruff New England man, Farmer Neil.
[9:46] And I walked up to Farmer Neil, I was like, "Hi, sir. I found this cat.
[9:50] Can I come back and try to save it?" And he was like, "I, I guess so." And
[9:55] came back the next day and found this kitten and cared for it, and the next
[9:57] day and the next day, and just kept coming back until the cat was better.
[10:02] And- But you wanted to keep coming back.
[10:04] And I kept coming back.
[10:05] I swear for the first six months they didn't even know my name.
[10:08] Like, I just kept to myself.
[10:10] And eventually become, became more and more immersed in the actual farm life.
[10:16] Uh, like I said, it was a dairy farm, so I helped care for all
[10:19] of the cows and the calves.
[10:20] There were pigs, chickens, crops.
[10:22] There was a big garden.
[10:23] And I was there before school, after school.
[10:25] It became like my second home.
[10:27] Noelle: Wow.
[10:28] Kaleigh Marie: And this man who, meeting him, is this,
[10:31] this r- gruff, weathered guy.
[10:34] He's the kindest, most generous person.
[10:36] Like, the life I have now, I could not have, I'm getting emotional thinking
[10:41] about it, I could not have without the generosity that he showed me.
[10:46] And it started with the cows when I was 12.
[10:50] I had been there for a year.
[10:52] He walked up to me.
[10:53] I remember this vividly.
[10:54] I have no idea why, but it's, like, burned into my mind.
[10:57] I was carrying two five-gallon pails of water as best I could as a
[11:02] 12-year-old girl up this hill to go water the chickens, and he walked up
[11:05] to me, and at that point, I was still a little, a little nervous of him.
[11:09] I was like, "Hi, can I, like, what do you need from me?" And he was
[11:11] like, "You know those two twin calves that were just born?" There
[11:15] were a pair of twin bull calves.
[11:16] And I was like, "Yes." He's like, "You ought to train those to be oxen."
[11:19] And I was like, "Oxen?" He was like, "Yep, oxen," and went about his day.
[11:25] I had no idea what oxen were, and, uh, upon going home and telling my
[11:29] parents, "Mom, Dad, I have oxen," they, they also had no idea what oxen were.
[11:34] We looked it up online.
[11:36] There was one book in existence about what they were, what their equipment
[11:40] was, how to train them, and I set on this journey to training these
[11:44] two calves, I named them Simon and Oliver, to be a working team of oxen.
[11:49] And, uh, I was quite successful.
[11:51] Like, I had no idea what I was doing in the beginning, and just upon spending
[11:56] hours and hours of trial and error with them and finding guidance in some local
[12:02] farmers as well who had worked oxen with their grandfathers in the fields when
[12:06] they were growing up, like, just, just traditional history in the town where I
[12:10] was, I became quite successful with them.
[12:12] There was 4H competitions, uh, in my home state, and in New England,
[12:17] that's a thing where I'm from, is oxen competitions of, like, fitting and
[12:20] showmanship, how clean they are, how well you present them, how much you know.
[12:24] Um, cart classes, where you hook them to a two-wheeled cart.
[12:27] It's, like, precision down to the inch.
[12:29] Like, wildly precise driving classes to see how well you can control the
[12:33] team, and then strength classes of hooking them to an actual physical
[12:38] load that they had to move around.
[12:39] Whoa.
[12:40] An obstacle course.
[12:40] Like, wild, wild.
[12:42] Yeah.
[12:42] This is
[12:42] Noelle: so
[12:43] Kaleigh Marie: not at all- Yeah ... what I was expecting.
[12:44] Like a, a whole, it's a whole other world, and, uh, these competitions
[12:48] would happen at county and state fairs.
[12:51] Noelle: Yeah.
[12:52] Kaleigh Marie: And so I got really into the competitions, and I mean,
[12:54] through this whole time, I'm still obsessed with horses, obsessed with my
[12:58] cows, but still obsessed with horses, and could not have my own horse.
[13:02] Wasn't allowed to have a horse at the dairy farm still.
[13:04] Family not really involved in horses.
[13:07] So because of this, this passion, this persistent passion, and the work
[13:12] I was doing with the cows, I did the only logical thing I could think of,
[13:15] which was to teach the cows to ride.
[13:18] Noelle: And
[13:18] Kaleigh Marie: so I would ride them Oh my
[13:20] Noelle: God
[13:21] ... Kaleigh Marie: like when I say ride, they would walk, trot, and canter.
[13:23] We'd go on trail rides together.
[13:25] We'd go swimming in the river together.
[13:27] Like anything a teenager would do with her horse- You're- ... I did with these.
[13:30] Noelle: How?
[13:31] This is not like a, like, this is not like, this is... You're not having me on
[13:35] Kaleigh Marie: here.
[13:35] No, I'll send you pictures.
[13:37] Like that- We have to include these pictures ... they were my childhood
[13:39] best friends, and they're, so they were twins, um, almost all black.
[13:45] They grew up to be over 2,500 pounds, over six feet tall.
[13:50] Had like these pearly white horns.
[13:51] They were menacing to anybody that didn't know who they were or what they were, but
[13:56] to this day, the most docile, forgiving animals that I've ever worked with.
[14:00] Thank goodness, because I went on to teach them to ride
[14:02] bridleless, to roman ride bridles.
[14:04] I clicker trained them to do tricks.
[14:06] They're the first animals I ever clicker trained.
[14:08] And when you drive oxen, you don't have reins.
[14:11] You just have your body, a stick, and your voice.
[14:14] So growing up, I didn't even know liberty work was a thing.
[14:17] I just did it.
[14:18] It was just a natural progression of training, and eventually with
[14:22] these steers, I just found it more convenient to be able to lead them
[14:25] around without halters or a yoke, which is the equipment that they work in.
[14:29] Yeah.
[14:29] So would just drive them as a team completely at liberty.
[14:32] And this was the, the foundation of my entire childhood, was spending time on
[14:38] this 600 acre farm with my two cows.
[14:41] Positive reinforcement, bridleless riding, liberty work, like that was
[14:45] where it all began for me, and it was never something that was elite.
[14:48] It was just the way that we communicated with one another.
[14:51] It is what made life easy and sensible, was to, to be able
[14:55] to communicate with them.
[14:56] And because they were so massive and I was so little, they had to want to do
[15:01] what I wanted them to do, because there was no making them do these things.
[15:05] Yeah, there's literally no making a 2,500 pound- There's no, no making them do it.
[15:08] So all of these county fairs that we would go to to compete, often to
[15:13] the dismay of the administration, I would show these other things.
[15:16] I would roman ride them, I'd ride them around, I'd ride them bridleless,
[15:20] and it was- When you say to the, people were upset about this?
[15:24] So it caused intense controversy in the world of, of oxen because of, I, when
[15:33] it came down to it, jealous parents of children I was competing against.
[15:38] Also just fair policy of, of safety, of nobody rides cows.
[15:43] It's not safe to ride cows.
[15:44] I will tell you as somebody that has ridden cows, mules, donkeys,
[15:47] camels, horses, cows are the safest animal you can possibly ride,
[15:51] because they are so peaceful, and I will say thoroughly thoughtful.
[15:58] Many people call them slow.
[16:00] They're just very thorough in how they process and deliver information.
[16:04] So like where a horse will spook, it takes- immense amounts
[16:09] of effort for a cow to spook.
[16:11] Hence why I could do all of these insane things.
[16:14] Like, horse people hear this, they're like, "That's crazy." Like, when I
[16:18] say we Roman rode Bridless, we walked
[16:20] Noelle: around the yard, and they- So when you say Roman rode-
[16:24] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[16:24] Noelle: what does that mean?
[16:25] Kaleigh Marie: So Roman riding means they're lined up next to each other,
[16:27] and I would- Yeah ... stand on them.
[16:28] One- Like what you do
[16:29] Noelle: with the horses.
[16:29] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, exactly.
[16:30] Oh, okay.
[16:30] So, like, what I do with horses now is just a lot faster than
[16:34] what I used to do back then.
[16:36] Noelle: Wow.
[16:37] Kaleigh Marie: Uh, so I, I say it caused intense controversy.
[16:40] It's just nobody had ever seen this done with cows before, and just like anything
[16:46] that's, that's new... Like, for me, I just did it 'cause I thought it was
[16:49] fun and, and awesome, but it was new, and new is, is scary, so people either
[16:54] were all for it or entirely- Like, the-
[16:56] ... Noelle: against it ... isn't that interesting?
[16:57] Mm-hmm.
[16:57] Often when we do something new or something is impossible until it's
[17:00] possible- Yes ... then all of a sudden every... Like, you either
[17:03] get people who are, like, 10 out of 10 excited or 10 out of 10 furious-
[17:07] Mm-hmm ... about what you're up to.
[17:08] Kaleigh Marie: And where I am in my life now, I know that that's a good sign.
[17:12] That was hard to understand as- As a kid
[17:14] a kid, which makes me very, very thankful for my parents, especially
[17:18] my mom, who to this day is, like, my biggest fan, and she was my fiercest
[17:22] protector back then because she, she believed in me so strongly.
[17:25] Like, nobody, nobody could touch me, and, and if they tried, she was the
[17:29] first one off the bat to, to stand up for me and what I was doing.
[17:32] And eventually this gave way to my first teaching opportunities.
[17:36] As a 16-year-old kid, I was going across the country with Simon and Oliver to
[17:40] international agricultural organizations, colleges, draft animal-powered field days.
[17:46] Anywhere where oxen were relevant, I started to present on what I would
[17:50] describe now as relationship-based training, which back then, as I said,
[17:55] it's just what, what made sense.
[17:56] It's just how I communicated with them and how I motivated them to do the work
[18:00] that I wanted them to do, which compared to traditional methods of training oxen
[18:04] was very new- Right ... and unconventional because a lot of traditional methods
[18:08] relied heavily on force, on making these very massive but very peaceful
[18:13] animals do tasks that they might not understand or be comfortable with.
[18:18] So it was, it was a little bit of a, of a revolution with this very young girl and
[18:23] these big cows in this world of training oxen, uh, that opened the doorway to me
[18:29] being able to access educational platforms from a, a very young age and connect
[18:33] with people over connecting with animals.
[18:35] Noelle: Wow.
[18:36] Kaleigh Marie: So those are, like, my, my deep, deep roots.
[18:39] Now fast-forward a little bit because how do I eventually get back into horses?
[18:45] Is the big question on the table here.
[18:47] I, as a very little girl, was obsessed with the idea of having a big black horse.
[18:52] This is like the only justification I have for the next decision that I made, which
[18:56] was to purchase a young Percheron filly.
[18:59] That was my first horse ever, and I think as a, a young woman, like
[19:04] people seeing what I've accomplished with the horses I have now- Well, the
[19:09] 6B ... there's the assumption that I've been in horses my whole life,
[19:11] and I started riding when I was young.
[19:13] But when I was immersed in the cows, I had nothing to do with horses.
[19:16] For about seven years I didn't touch horses, and only got back into
[19:21] horses when I was, like 17, 18 years old, which was about 10 years ago.
[19:26] Yeah.
[19:26] Yeah, that was like my first horse that I ever trained on my
[19:30] own, was a young Percheron filly.
[19:32] Uh, she came with this name.
[19:33] Her name was Twinkle.
[19:35] She was, like almost 19 hands.
[19:37] She was gigantic by the time she was full-grown, and ended up getting
[19:41] her a teammate, and for a time had a carriage driving business because
[19:44] with draft horses, that was just the world I was thrown into, is, "Oh, if
[19:47] you have a draft horse, you should drive them." And she rode, too, but I
[19:51] became very interested in the driving.
[19:53] Um, would do hay rides, sleigh rides, weddings, and as I was figuring out this
[19:59] driving journey with this big team of, of beautiful black draft horses, I stumbled
[20:04] across, uh, a very unique opportunity, which has also helped to shape quite a
[20:11] bit of kind of the, the diverse species experience- Mm-hmm ... that I've had.
[20:16] Uh, as I mentioned, grew up in Vermont, very agricultural-based state.
[20:20] So in the, the town or small city where I was at the time, on the outskirts of
[20:25] the city, there was a compost company, which is exactly what it sounds like.
[20:30] It's a dirt company, where people bring food and it's turned over
[20:34] and over and o- and over in these gigantic windrows until it is compost.
[20:38] Yeah.
[20:39] And they ship this compost across the country to people wanting
[20:42] high-quality soil for their operations.
[20:45] Cool.
[20:45] And a cool eccentric, also very eccentric, the man that owned this
[20:49] company was obsessed with mammoth donkeys.
[20:52] He was obsessed with what?
[20:53] Mammoth donkeys.
[20:55] What's a mammoth donkey?
[20:56] So donkeys don't have breeds as much as horses do.
[21:00] They're classified much more by size.
[21:02] So you have, like mini donkey, uh, which I think is 36 inches and under.
[21:07] Standard donkey is up to 54 inches, and mammoth donkeys are
[21:11] over- 36.91 penalty ... 14 hands.
[21:14] 14 hands and up.
[21:15] Okay.
[21:15] So maybe it's 54, 56 inches.
[21:17] So he was, he was enamored with massive donkeys.
[21:22] That was his, his thing, and this very unique opportunity, he was looking
[21:26] for somebody To train these donkeys, and there was one mule, a very old
[21:31] Amish mule, uh, to pull a wagon into the city of Montpelier, Vermont to
[21:37] deliver his organic eggs to a local co-op once a week, simply for the sake
[21:41] of keeping animal power alive and, and thriving as, like, a representation
[21:45] of this is how we used to do things.
[21:47] Um, and as a kid, this is how he used to do things, and for me,
[21:50] I had never worked with donkeys before, anything with long ears.
[21:54] I was just starting to figure out the horses.
[21:56] I was like, "Sign me up. I will ... If you give me a chance to figure these animals
[22:00] out, I will get this done for you." I, I was much more confident than I should've
[22:06] been at the time, and I absolutely did it.
[22:09] I, just through time and experimenting and figuring out, once again, what
[22:14] motivated them, we quite successfully created this program where once a week
[22:19] we'd harness a team of donkeys and hook up to a wagon and drive them into the city.
[22:24] And you talk about functional training with animals who are not easily motivated.
[22:29] They had to be traffic safe, like- Yeah ... stoplight safe, with cars and bikes and
[22:33] horns and trucks and, and everything.
[22:36] And,
[22:38] Noelle: uh- But this makes- Yeah ... okay, so I ... Okay, so- Are, are the pieces
[22:42] starting- No, it makes- ... to, to
[22:42] Kaleigh Marie: come together?
[22:43] ... Noelle: perfect sense now.
[22:45] Yeah.
[22:45] That piece- Mm ... of your puzzle makes- Mm ... perfect sense.
[22:48] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[22:48] Noelle: Because if anyone, and like, again, a lot of people in high performance
[22:52] or in the sports side of things will not know a lot about mules or donkeys.
[22:56] Mm. I know a little bit.
[22:57] Yeah.
[22:57] A little bit.
[22:58] Yeah.
[22:58] And I'm fascinated about mules, but the reason why is because
[23:02] when I got my Appaloosa mare-
[23:04] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[23:05] ... Noelle: a lot of vets told me, "If you wanna learn about how to really understand
[23:09] your mare, you should probably do more reading about mules or donkeys- Mm
[23:13] than you should about horses." Interesting.
[23:14] Because vets typically classify Appaloosas as more, like, stubborn
[23:20] and- Mm ... non, non-motivated- Yeah ... non-solution seeking, as I say.
[23:24] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[23:25] Noelle: Like mules and donkeys.
[23:26] Yeah.
[23:26] So the more reading and the more talking to people, I found out about the art-
[23:31] Kaleigh Marie: Mm
[23:32] ... Noelle: of training and working with mules- It is an art
[23:34] and the art of- That's like hard to describe it.
[23:36] Yeah.
[23:36] No, but, like, this makes perfect sense as to why you are the, what, how lo-
[23:39] how you were able to do, how you've been able to do so much- Mm ... in 10 years.
[23:43] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[23:44] Noelle: M- if you started, if your foundation in equus ... like,
[23:48] is, is donkeys and mules-
[23:50] Kaleigh Marie: Gigantic horses and
[23:51] Noelle: gigantic
[23:51] Kaleigh Marie: donkeys
[23:52] that's like
[23:52] Noelle: starting-
[23:52] Kaleigh Marie: And gigantic cows.
[23:54] Noelle: Yeah.
[23:54] Kaleigh Marie: Like, all of the animals I started with were not easily motivated
[23:59] or, or coerced into doing things.
[24:01] And w- my favorite part about this- You know, you look back on, on how you
[24:06] get to be where you are, and there are some things that you just can't explain
[24:10] beyond divine plan and intervention.
[24:12] Noelle: Yeah.
[24:13] Kaleigh Marie: The experience I had as a young developing trainer with different
[24:17] species, the fact that that was right out of the gate where I stepped into this
[24:21] world, I honestly believe is the reason why I'm so predisposed to do what I do.
[24:26] Yeah.
[24:26] Because I've had so many opportunities to, to hunt down, beyond just horses,
[24:32] what the common threads of connection are.
[24:34] Like, what is communication?
[24:36] What builds connection?
[24:37] And not just between people and horses, but people and species.
[24:41] Like, what do we need to understand individually about the species, but what
[24:44] is, like, the raw ingredient that I need?
[24:47] What are the, the raw pieces I need to build connection with
[24:50] whoever is in front of me?
[24:52] Because it was such a necessary and functional piece of what I did.
[24:55] Like, it wasn't just a pretty piece that I discovered through
[24:58] liberty work with the horses.
[24:59] Like, no, the, the liberty work is the easiest way for people to find
[25:03] and experience the pieces, but it was just a, a functional piece of working
[25:08] with animals who I needed to keep safe and who I needed to keep me safe.
[25:12] Like, we needed a strong, functional working relationship that was fulfilling
[25:15] for both of us because I was, to a certain degree, at their mercy.
[25:19] So I, I needed to make it worth their time and to understand fundamentally
[25:25] what they were in it for and how I could deliver that to them.
[25:28] Yeah, like why should I?
[25:29] That, and donkeys especially ask that question all the time.
[25:33] All the time.
[25:34] All the time.
[25:35] And at first it's so frustrating.
[25:36] Like, people call them stubborn, but they're, they're very intelligent.
[25:42] Oh, yeah.
[25:42] And, and cut and dry.
[25:43] Like, it's ... I came to realize that is a legitimate question.
[25:47] It's actually quite a vulnerable one of like, "Why should I do this for you?"
[25:51] Noelle: Yeah.
[25:51] Kaleigh Marie: And I think when, when we get thrown into the horse world,
[25:56] like, we take horses for granted.
[25:59] And working, especially with animals that are not easily motivated, we
[26:03] take their trainability for granted.
[26:05] We take their desire to connect with people for granted.
[26:07] Like, they are such a gift when it comes to having the opportunity to connect with
[26:13] an animal who's so much bigger and so much more sentient and able to feel and
[26:18] so much more athletic w- than we are.
[26:20] Like, they open up doors to worlds that we could never access otherwise, and we're
[26:25] thrown into this world with the assumption that, yes, I should just be able to
[26:28] sit on your back and, and ride you.
[26:30] And yes, I want to be able to do those things, but I absolutely need
[26:33] to make sure that it's for the good of my horse as well, because what
[26:37] an opportunity to be able to do that with, with horses and any animal.
[26:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[26:41] Yeah.
[26:42] This is so cool.
[26:44] And I, I really love that because I do think that donkeys and mules are this
[26:51] amazing- Mm ... like, such an amazing teacher because I do think that their
[26:57] level of stubbornness, like, often outweighs their ... Like, you know, I
[27:02] think, um There's this, and you'll, you'll probably be able to explain it better than
[27:07] me because you're a teacher in that way.
[27:09] Like, there's, you know, when you, you're in, you're in an inter- let's say you're
[27:13] training a horse- Mm ... and you're like, you're trying to find the solution,
[27:17] you're trying to find the solution.
[27:18] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[27:19] Noelle: And you're obviously ex- as a, the human, you're- Yeah ... very
[27:21] motivated to find the solution.
[27:23] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[27:23] Noelle: You really want it.
[27:24] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[27:25] Noelle: And do you ever f- have you ever been able to find that moment where the
[27:27] horse is like, "Yeah, okay." Like, "I can see you really want this." I mean,
[27:34] I'm anthropomorphizing here- Yeah ... a little bit, but like you can feel that
[27:37] horse kind of go like, "Yeah, o- okay, I'll give it to you." Like, and it's not
[27:40] to say that you, you found that, um, maybe technically very well, but the horse was
[27:46] like, "I'm gonna put these, I'm gonna put one plus one equals two here for you."
[27:50] Mm. Whereas I feel as though donkeys and mules are just like, "I don't feel that
[27:58] particularly curious about the sol- the, the solution or the equation." Yeah.
[28:01] Like y- talking about motivation-
[28:04] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah ... do you find that to be true?
[28:05] Well, I, I think, I mean, before we started this podcast, we had
[28:09] mentioned like the deep dives.
[28:10] Yeah.
[28:10] This is our first opportunity for a- To do the deep dive ... a deeper dive.
[28:13] And I mentioned just a moment ago the idea of like the raw ingredients of connection.
[28:19] Yeah.
[28:19] There's a concept I refer to quite often, which is conversational quality.
[28:23] And like I'll use this as a perfect example.
[28:25] This high quality conversation, we're both genuinely interested- Mm
[28:30] and engaging a, a pretty even amount.
[28:32] Like, I, I'm in the hot seat here.
[28:34] Like, so- ... I'm, I'm talking quite a bit, but there's- No, but like we're both
[28:36] Noelle: like- We're very-
[28:37] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah ... invested in, in the conversation.
[28:39] And, and now the analogy I typically use, it's two friends out for a cup of coffee.
[28:43] It could be a conversation like this where we're very enamored with
[28:46] what we're talking about, and the engagement is here and flowing.
[28:49] We could have both brought our favorite book, and we're sitting quite
[28:52] quietly, but mutually we're aware of one another, and with that comes
[28:57] a, a prioritizing of responsiveness.
[29:00] Mm. Like, out of everything that's happening around me, I prioritize
[29:03] you, that I'm going to respond to.
[29:04] You are what I orient to-
[29:06] Noelle: Yeah
[29:06] Kaleigh Marie: and, and what I respond to.
[29:08] And what's beautiful about this is that there's a, an equal amount of us in the
[29:14] thing that we're cultivating together.
[29:15] Yes.
[29:16] Like the, the creative process.
[29:18] It's not about the destination or, or the product that we're creating.
[29:21] It's about the, the actual physical experience- Yeah
[29:25] and the essence of every single step that goes into creating the product.
[29:29] Noelle: Yeah.
[29:30] Kaleigh Marie: That is, I think, what really leads to connection.
[29:32] Like people say, "I, I want connection." Well, it's not in
[29:35] what you do, it's how you do it.
[29:38] So with horses, like that idea that my horse will put together
[29:42] one plus one, I don't actually believe that the horse will.
[29:45] I believe that the horse will give over their physical body and allow us to
[29:50] make the body put the pieces together for them, but at that point we lose the
[29:55] emotional being inside of the horse.
[29:58] I lose the opportunity to bring- Yeah ... who my horse is out in the work.
[30:03] And now it's just me.
[30:05] The conversational quality has left the building, and in the world of, of horses,
[30:12] I think it's much more acceptable to see that imbalance of more human than horse
[30:18] rather than more horse than human, 'cause as soon as we get more horse than the
[30:23] human is capable of interacting with- Yeah
[30:25] or directing, we label them as dangerous, explosive, disrespectful,
[30:30] pushy, unmanageable, et cetera.
[30:32] We're really, we're just lacking conversational quality and awareness.
[30:35] Now, you take a donkey into the picture, you cannot make that
[30:39] donkey give you their body.
[30:41] That is the one thing donkeys won't do, is their self-preservation is so
[30:45] incredibly strong, there's nothing you can elicit from them that will cause
[30:50] them to forego their personal autonomy.
[30:53] That's just not on the table for them.
[30:55] So what you do need to do is produce an environment that leads them to make the
[31:01] decisions that you want them to make.
[31:04] Now, in the beginning, a lot of that environment is external, but I found
[31:08] through the experience of working these donkeys in the city streets
[31:11] of Montpelier is the more often I could put us in situations where my
[31:17] call was the safe call, the more they started to trust me as an individual.
[31:23] So when we did get into the sketchy situations, where I tell you
[31:26] there were plenty, by the time we got there, if I made a call that
[31:30] wouldn't initially be theirs, they were much more apt to trust me-
[31:33] Noelle: Mm
[31:34] ... Kaleigh Marie: because I had just consistently produced outcomes
[31:39] that justified the trust.
[31:40] Where I think we expect horses to trust- Yes
[31:43] immediately, where it's something that has to be so earned and so delicately
[31:48] cultivated with horses because it is so easy to lose the emotional sentient
[31:53] being inside of the horse and just have the body, where I don't find
[31:58] other animals to be quite that way.
[32:01] Noelle: Mm.
[32:02] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[32:02] Noelle: Okay.
[32:03] The way you talk about trust, cultivating trust.
[32:05] Mm. But it makes sense- Mm ... because of the way you started.
[32:08] Yeah.
[32:08] Like, this is so p- okay, this is so powerful.
[32:12] Yeah.
[32:12] But I want to... So before we, 'cause now I really wanna pull, like I'm like,
[32:17] "Oh, do I want..." Rabbit hole questions.
[32:20] Yeah.
[32:20] Rabbit hole question.
[32:21] Okay.
[32:21] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[32:22] Noelle: But how does nervous system work, h- where and when did
[32:25] nervous system work come into this?
[32:27] Kaleigh Marie: Mm. So I've had a variety of experiences in the, the horse world, as
[32:32] we all do- Yeah ... as we kind of find our way, and going from the mammoth donkeys,
[32:39] I've, I've had some pretty significant turns and, and twists in my journey.
[32:44] At that time, I was starting to get back into riding.
[32:47] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:47] Kaleigh Marie: And taking riding lessons, I had- Started just slowly,
[32:51] casually started a, a training business, Braveheart Beasts.
[32:54] That's- Yeah ... where that, that name came from because it
[32:57] wasn't, at that time, just horses.
[32:59] It was cows, horses, donkeys, mules, whatever people were
[33:02] interested in having me work with.
[33:04] I was like, "Yeah, I guess I can do that for you." And, uh, when that
[33:09] started, when that journey started for me, that was when I've, I found
[33:15] Alchemist, who for anybody that follows my work, he's like my main guy.
[33:19] He's been with me for eight, almost nine years now, and he
[33:25] was my first client horse ever.
[33:28] Family friend approached me with this young Friesian cross who
[33:31] wasn't broke to ride, and she just wanted a, a trail horse.
[33:34] Just wanted a trail horse.
[33:35] Trail horse.
[33:36] Yes.
[33:37] We've heard that- The good old- ... so many times.
[33:39] Yes.
[33:39] Just a trail horse.
[33:40] Uh, where in, in her defense, she really just wanted a, a quiet horse
[33:44] to go out on the trails and had found this beautiful young horse that she
[33:47] had fallen in love with, um, but more for looks than personality,
[33:51] which we've all been there, for sure.
[33:53] And the, the sounds of this, by the sounds of it, I was like within the,
[33:58] the realm of my knowledge, which especially based around riding, was
[34:01] not very much at the time, it sounded like something that was manageable.
[34:05] Nothing too technical, just a horse that was safe enough to take out on trails.
[34:09] Well, I went to meet this horse and was met th- with this young,
[34:14] uh... Just to describe his presence, like huge in his presence.
[34:19] Like, his energy just dominated the space that you were in, not because he
[34:24] was, he was particularly confident or pushy, but because he was chronically
[34:29] anxious with an immense amount of, of presence, of personality, and absolutely
[34:35] no tools whatsoever to manage himself.
[34:39] Uh, no rapport with people, no awareness that people had personal space or any
[34:44] kind of value to him and the input and safety that they could provide for him.
[34:49] And I knew, like compared to what I know now, nothing.
[34:52] But I was like, "You know what? I wanna try this. I, I want to, to
[34:56] work with him." And at the time he would bolt unpredictably, rear
[35:01] strike, like he was just unaware of his body and his surroundings,
[35:05] and not secure all of the time.
[35:08] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[35:09] Kaleigh Marie: And what went from a season of training him for his
[35:12] owner very quickly turned into his owner saying, "I'm realizing this
[35:16] is not the right horse for me.
[35:18] I adore him.
[35:19] I don't want to sell him just for the sake of selling him.
[35:21] Do you want to, to take him?" And it's crazy to think back to
[35:24] this because I almost said no.
[35:27] I almost said no because he was so much at the time, and I was so- Yeah ... I, I was
[35:32] not confident in my ability to help him.
[35:35] Uh, but I, I said, "You know what?
[35:37] I'm gonna continue.
[35:38] Like, I'm, I'm up for the challenge.
[35:39] I'll, I'll see what happens." And, uh, he came into my life.
[35:43] Not too long after that, Elgin came into my life, his full brother.
[35:47] Mm-hmm.
[35:48] At that point, I was really- Also, I'm
[35:50] Noelle: just gonna say, I
[35:50] Kaleigh Marie: love-
[35:51] Noelle: Yeah ... all the Friesians, and this is a lot of Friesian energy, no?
[35:54] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, so two, they're- Or- They're Baroque Pintos.
[35:56] Okay.
[35:57] So half Friesian and half Paint.
[35:59] Cool.
[35:59] Yeah, which was just like- I love it ... for horses to just find me.
[36:01] Just- I was like, "This-
[36:02] finding ... this is pretty cool.
[36:04] I can, I can roll with this." And, uh, I did roll with it by taking Alchemist
[36:09] to, uh, a school for classical dressage.
[36:12] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[36:13] Kaleigh Marie: The Temple Lipizzans, which is no longer operational, but it was a,
[36:17] a school of 30 Lipizzan stallions, three head trainers, three working students,
[36:22] and each of us was responsible for 10 stallions with the trainer that we were
[36:26] working with, which was an experience I could talk about all on its own.
[36:30] Uh, but going from, just to, to paint the picture of where I went from the
[36:34] donkeys to, okay, now I'm training horses, now I'm studying horses.
[36:38] Eventually, I was out in Illinois, of all places.
[36:41] Mm. Landed back in the Northeast, outfitted with more knowledge than I
[36:45] had, uh, and really sat down with myself more than anybody and, and was just like,
[36:50] "Okay, I want to really start my business, and I wanna do it in, in a good way."
[36:55] Noelle: Yeah.
[36:55] Kaleigh Marie: Um, and to really devote myself to training
[36:58] animals for other people.
[37:00] And, and that is where my business really began, was taking in, training,
[37:07] still of donkeys, mules, horses, not so much cows at that time.
[37:10] I say taking in.
[37:11] I traveled around.
[37:12] I had a toolbox in the bed of my truck with whips and halters and
[37:15] treat pouches and I would go...
[37:17] I lived in Massachusetts, wherever my clients were, and some of my
[37:21] biggest clients became rescues in the Massachusetts area.
[37:26] There were two rescues in particular that I was the head trainer at.
[37:31] Over several years, I, I became really immersed in rehabilitating, physically and
[37:36] emotionally, the animals that came into the rescues, and because of that work,
[37:42] I developed the reputation of, like, if there's nobody else to call, call Kaeli.
[37:46] If there's a behavioral case that's really bizarre and a horse that
[37:50] might be on death's door about to be euthanized because of something
[37:55] behavioral, can we send it to Kaeli to, to see if she can fix it?
[37:58] So- Yeah ... I got to experience a wide range of pretty odd behavioral
[38:03] cases, from severe and unpredictable aggression to horses that were
[38:07] afraid of wide open spaces.
[38:08] Like, just weird behaviors, behavior that really made you
[38:12] think about and, and puzzle on where does the behavior come from?
[38:17] Like, unless a horse is neurologically unsound, all
[38:22] behavior comes from the same place.
[38:24] So I felt a need to understand where behavior was born from, really.
[38:31] Yeah.
[38:31] And a perfect timing to this chapter in my life was the start of Ward
[38:37] Schiller's Journey On podcast.
[38:39] Mm. And the first two episodes- talk ever so briefly about the nervous system,
[38:45] almost to the point where it's mean.
[38:46] It's a tease of- Like, he just mentions parasympathetic, sympathetic-
[38:51] Yeah ... and a couple of the things that happen in those states, and I'm
[38:53] like, I was driving to a clinic when I heard it, and on the way to this
[38:58] clinic, I'm questioning everything I've been teaching because I'm like- Whoa
[39:00] "Oh, my gosh." Like, this is, I have no idea what that is, but I knew right
[39:05] away this is where the answers are.
[39:06] Yeah.
[39:07] And at that time, there was one horse in particular, Roman, who is a
[39:11] 17-year-old Tennessee walking horse who had come into this rescue unhandled.
[39:16] Hadn't had a lot of training, any training really, and was severely aggressive.
[39:22] Unpredictably aggressive.
[39:23] Like, somebody could walk in and put a halter on him, and two minutes
[39:26] later he'd grab them and throw them across- Yeah ... the paddock.
[39:28] Like, just extremely unpredictable and dangerous.
[39:31] Was about to be euthanized, and I talked the owner of the rescue into letting
[39:36] me take him in and, and work with him.
[39:39] Uh- Uh-huh ... and thinking about the experience I had with him, do you know
[39:44] the movie How to Train Your Dragon?
[39:46] Noelle: Oh,
[39:46] Kaleigh Marie: yeah.
[39:47] Uh, don't we all?
[39:48] Yeah.
[39:48] Well, like, talk about connection with animals captured in ... Like,
[39:52] they captured it so- It's perfect.
[39:53] It is perfect.
[39:53] Literally.
[39:53] Literally.
[39:54] It is literally perfect.
[39:55] Um, so he was kind of my Toothless.
[39:58] Noelle: Oh.
[39:58] Kaleigh Marie: So the, the part of the movie where Hiccup is learning all about
[40:02] the, the dragons and, and taking the knowledge to just practical application-
[40:07] Noelle: Yeah
[40:07] ... Kaleigh Marie: learning about the nervous system was my learning about this really
[40:12] dragon that, that I had who over the entire time that I worked with him, only
[40:17] he lunged at me two times in, like, the first week that I was working with him.
[40:22] I only reached that point with him two times because o- of missteps from me.
[40:27] I was never, never injured in the work that I did with him.
[40:30] Noelle: Cool.
[40:31] Kaleigh Marie: And it, that was very cool.
[40:33] I was very thankful for that.
[40:35] But understanding everything he showed me was communication.
[40:41] The, the, I, I guess you could call it a system.
[40:45] The relationship I had with him to this day is different than
[40:48] any horse I ever had because it was so strongly based in consent.
[40:51] Noelle: Mm.
[40:52] Kaleigh Marie: And I think consent-based work has a place in all training
[40:55] to different degrees depending on the emotional resilience and the
[40:58] physical resilience of the horse-
[41:00] Noelle: Yeah
[41:00] ... Kaleigh Marie: and the strength of the relationship.
[41:02] Like, the, the better we know each other, the more capable we are of doing
[41:05] the thing that's on the table, the higher of an expectation I'm gonna have
[41:09] for the partner that I'm working with.
[41:11] Noelle: Yeah.
[41:11] Kaleigh Marie: But for him, there was no expectation.
[41:13] It was like, "How do we keep you alive?"
[41:15] Noelle: Mm.
[41:15] Kaleigh Marie: And we had, we developed the ability, he could tell me yes and no.
[41:19] He could tell me if he wanted a halter, if he wanted to be touched,
[41:22] where he wanted to be brushed.
[41:23] We had, like, a, an introduction ritual of if he wanted to work with me, how
[41:28] we would introduce each other to each other on that specific day, and if
[41:31] it didn't happen, I didn't touch him.
[41:32] Like, it- Whoa ... it was so intentional.
[41:35] Uh, and- That's amazing ... it was amazing.
[41:37] It was amazing.
[41:38] Noelle: So- Well, 'cause talk about being like, yeah, like, it's like-
[41:41] It's kind of one of those opportunities with a horse like that that's like
[41:44] could- was gonna be euthanized.
[41:45] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[41:46] Noelle: Literally like, "Okay, let's throw all the toys out- He's got nothing
[41:48] to lose ... and be like, let's just..."
[41:49] Yeah.
[41:50] Yeah, you have nothing to lose.
[41:51] And I,
[41:51] Kaleigh Marie: and I say you have nothing to lose.
[41:52] In those situations, you have nothing to lose except your own personal safety.
[41:56] I think- Right.
[41:57] Yeah ... those situations are scary, but also very raw and
[42:02] authentic in keeping you so aware.
[42:05] Noelle: Yeah.
[42:05] Kaleigh Marie: Like us as people, we don't find ourselves in situations very often
[42:09] where we have to be aware of ourselves, and our bodies, and our energy, and
[42:13] what we're communicating simply for the sake of keeping ourselves alive,
[42:17] and not in the presence of a persistent threat, but in the presence of something
[42:23] where if I misconduct myself- Yes
[42:26] I will produce a threat.
[42:28] Noelle: Yes.
[42:28] Kaleigh Marie: As long as I'm aware and if I'm connected, there's no threat present.
[42:32] Noelle: Yeah.
[42:32] Kaleigh Marie: Like that's, that's a high-stake situation.
[42:35] That teaches you a lot about how- Talk about that ... the subtle details
[42:39] really impact what's happening.
[42:41] So that, that horse, Roman, he was the introduction to the nervous system.
[42:47] And I mean, I say introduction, like just the tip of the iceberg.
[42:50] Even still, I'm-
[42:51] Noelle: Yeah
[42:51] ... Kaleigh Marie: learning and, and changing the way- Well- ... that I, I
[42:54] approach it and explain it to people-
[42:55] Noelle: I will also say too- ... because there's so much there ... like the
[42:57] industry as a whole- Mm ... and if Dr. Steven Peters were here, he'd also say-
[43:00] Kaleigh Marie: Yes
[43:01] Noelle: like we also... Okay, there's a, there's a, like a, a ceiling to the
[43:06] amount of research- Mm ... and money that's grant... Like, that's funded.
[43:09] So
[43:09] Kaleigh Marie: much.
[43:10] Noelle: So horses, horse eq- Like, equine neuroscience is
[43:13] not a highly prioritized field.
[43:16] Kaleigh Marie: No.
[43:16] Noelle: So there is... I mean, first of all, there are a lot of questions.
[43:19] Mm. And there's not a lot of answers.
[43:21] Yeah.
[43:22] And there's not a lot of funding to find out those answers.
[43:25] Yeah.
[43:26] So when people go, "This should... You know, we should know this," it's
[43:28] like, well, should is a loaded word.
[43:29] Like- Yeah.
[43:30] ... we... Who's gonna pay for that research?
[43:32] Yeah, like the- And also, you know, we know r- for when it comes
[43:36] to research- The reality of it
[43:37] how much money is required in order to- Mm ... to find beyond a reasonable doubt-
[43:42] Kaleigh Marie: Right
[43:43] ... Noelle: what is true- Yeah ... and not true in accordance to the intelligence and
[43:47] the- Mm ... data that we have right now.
[43:49] Mm. 'Cause we've also disproven a lot.
[43:51] Mm-hmm.
[43:52] Right?
[43:52] So it's like I always find research to be this incredibly
[43:55] powerful- Fascinating thing
[43:56] and also very flimsy- It's volatile- ... uh,
[43:59] Kaleigh Marie: modal- Yeah ... really, because people will base their, their
[44:01] entire modalities around it, and sometimes even base their identities on it.
[44:05] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[44:06] Kaleigh Marie: And you talk about a forceful paradigm shift when something
[44:09] like that gets turned on its head because somebody's discovered this new piece.
[44:12] Like, you, you have to be so humble and curious in the information- that you're,
[44:19] you're using, especially as a teacher-
[44:21] Noelle: Yeah
[44:21] ... Kaleigh Marie: to be able to help people on their own journeys.
[44:23] And honestly, a lot of the nervous system information I've
[44:27] pursued has been human-based.
[44:28] Noelle: Mm.
[44:29] Kaleigh Marie: Not horse-based.
[44:29] Yeah.
[44:30] And I've, I, I'm gonna say I've simply taken it.
[44:33] It has not been simple.
[44:34] I have taken it very intentionally- Yeah ... to my horses, students'
[44:38] horses as well- Yeah ... but especially my horses, and, and have watched
[44:42] parallel function of like, okay, if it functions this way in people, what's
[44:45] the parallel- Yeah ... for horses?
[44:47] And also, where do we, where do we find an intersection- Yeah
[44:51] between how a horse's nervous system and a person's nervous system actually
[44:56] start to, to communicate with one another and almost interface with one another?
[45:01] Because at all times, we are interfacing and, and communicating in ways that
[45:05] we're completely unaware of, like, in just tiny, tiny little, little
[45:10] signs and shifts and, and feelings.
[45:12] Yeah.
[45:13] Noelle: Mm.
[45:14] Kaleigh Marie: It fascinates me.
[45:15] So cool.
[45:15] And no, and I love, I love this so much.
[45:17] So
[45:18] Noelle: much.
[45:18] Okay, so let's maybe pull our first question.
[45:20] Okay.
[45:20] I feel like this is a good opportunity to- I'm excited ... pull our f-
[45:22] Okay, you pull the first question.
[45:28] Kaleigh Marie: Okay.
[45:28] Ooh, this is a good one.
[45:31] How do you reset yourself on days when you're not showing up
[45:35] as the trainer you want to be?
[45:38] Oh.
[45:38] Ooh.
[45:39] And there's... I think there's different facets to that.
[45:45] For me, uh, the, the first one that comes to mind is broader, which is the idea that
[45:50] who we're showing up as, like, the trainer I want to be, me as a person and me as
[45:55] a trainer are not two separate things.
[45:57] So who I am outside of my horses is directly related to who I am
[46:02] when I go in to work with them.
[46:04] Like, the, the idea that when we get to the barn or we get to the arena,
[46:07] we leave all of our, our stress and baggage at the door, like, it does not.
[46:10] To me, it does not work that way.
[46:12] That's hard.
[46:13] Like, I, I think of it, I call it the backpack of, like, when we're, when
[46:16] we have that with us, when we have the, the stress and the conditioning
[46:22] to be acting on stress and not being in the present moment, like, all of
[46:26] these things, we don't just magically develop the ability to have that-
[46:28] Noelle: Yeah
[46:29] Kaleigh Marie: when we get to the barn and the space where our horses are.
[46:32] And whatever we are not aware of or have influence over, it is the
[46:37] backpack, and pretending like we can drop the backpack at the gate, which
[46:41] we can't necessarily do, creates so much incongruence for the horses.
[46:44] 'Cause the horse is like, "What are you wearing?"
[46:46] Yeah.
[46:47] And you're like, "I don't, I'm not wearing anything."
[46:48] Noelle: Like, "What, what happened two hours ago?"
[46:50] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[46:50] And you're like, "I, I'm not wearing anything." They're like, "No, you,
[46:53] you have a backpack on." I'm like, "No, I don't have a backpack.
[46:55] I'm, I'm fine." And to just deny the fact that everything we experience outside
[47:00] of the work we do with horses influences strongly what's going on, I think that's
[47:04] the first thing we have to recognize.
[47:05] So for me- As a person, just things that I've learned about myself that
[47:09] help immensely, intentional physical movement, exercise, and good, clean foods.
[47:16] Like, I, I say good clean food.
[47:18] I love food.
[47:19] I'm, I'm a foodie.
[47:20] Like, eat to live, live to eat, live to eat, for sure.
[47:24] But looking for things that I can put into my body that quite literally
[47:28] the input into my body is the output.
[47:30] Mm. Whatever I put into myself is what I get to put out to those around me, horses
[47:35] and people, and directly influences, as we know, connection is reciprocal.
[47:39] What I put out is also what I get back.
[47:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[47:41] Kaleigh Marie: So if, if physically the things I'm putting into myself can, can
[47:45] influence that in an incredibly strong way, to tie it back into the nervous
[47:49] system, like gut-brain connection, the connection of the, the vagus nerve
[47:55] throughout the body, like our brain is talking to our gut all the time.
[47:58] Our gut is talking to our brain.
[47:59] It's not a 50/50 street, it's an 80/20 street.
[48:02] 80% of the information from our body is going from our gut to our brain.
[48:05] Yeah.
[48:06] Like, don't you think what we put into our bodies should be of importance to
[48:10] us if quite literally it's defining our physical, visceral experience as a person?
[48:15] So I would say first and foremost, take that seriously because-
[48:19] Noelle: Like, control the things you can.
[48:21] That's what that comes up, that what- Yeah
[48:22] ... Kaleigh Marie: that what that brings up.
[48:23] A, a focus, exactly.
[48:24] Focus on, on what is in the realm of, of your control.
[48:27] Mm-hmm.
[48:27] And also, make tiny changes.
[48:30] Like, if I look at the lifestyle I'm leading now compared to where I was two
[48:33] years ago, I've made immense improvements, and if I look at the lifestyle I'd love
[48:37] to have, there's still im- immense- Sure
[48:39] improvements to go.
[48:40] So practically, for anybody wanting to explore that outside of just
[48:44] horses, like 1% better every day.
[48:47] Noelle: Mm.
[48:47] Kaleigh Marie: You do everything all at once, it's never gonna stick.
[48:49] Speaking from experience, like just a little bit better.
[48:52] And give yourself grace as you, as you learn that.
[48:55] But taking that to the actual day with the horses, when I am not where I would
[49:00] like to be, if I'm noticing frustration, if I'm starting to, to notice that I'm
[49:06] not accomplishing the thing that I want to be accomplishing, the first thing I
[49:11] look at or, or I question myself on is, am I acting from a place of expectation
[49:18] or am I acting from a place of intention?
[49:20] And the difference between these two things is that
[49:22] expectation is very ego-based.
[49:25] I think to a degree it's necessary to have goals and visions of what
[49:30] it is that we'd like to accomplish.
[49:32] In fact, vitally necessary to have a context to connect over.
[49:35] If I don't know what we're doing or what we're talking about,
[49:38] it's hard to develop connection, like a mutual partnership- Yeah
[49:42] to accomplish what's on the table.
[49:43] But expectation goes beyond that, and it starts to connect my ability to
[49:50] feel successful with what I physically witness- Mm ... outside of my body.
[49:54] I need to see this thing happen to be affirmed in myself
[49:58] that I've been successful.
[49:59] Mm-hmm.
[49:59] And that puts- My horse at risk, quite potentially, of being the thing that
[50:05] I'm trying to coerce and make into this thing that's threatening my success.
[50:10] Mm. So it puts me almost against my horse rather than intention, which
[50:14] comes down still maybe to I'm trying to accomplish this thing on this day.
[50:18] I wanna go work on X, Y, and Z. It's great to have a plan, but beyond that, I'm
[50:22] going to prioritize a specific feeling.
[50:26] I already mentioned it once, the idea of the creative process.
[50:28] Mm-hmm.
[50:28] I love this idea that it isn't the product that matters as much as
[50:33] the physical experience of all of the steps that lead to the product.
[50:36] So if all of the steps I'm going through lead to this product, but every step comes
[50:41] from a place of force and expectation of I have to make this happen to get here
[50:45] versus am I willing to go slower, am I willing to maybe humble myself and go a
[50:49] different way if the horse isn't ready for what I think we're ready for or is
[50:55] showing me something that is unexpected.
[50:57] Maybe they're not showing up in the way that I expected them to- Mm ... and if
[51:01] I can't pivot as the one facilitating the work and the relationship, then
[51:06] I'm doing both of us a disservice.
[51:08] So checking myself first, and if I catch myself early enough in
[51:13] the decline to say, "Okay, I'm too attached to the expectation.
[51:17] Can I shift what I'm doing to find the feeling that I'm looking for?" And, and
[51:21] that feeling should be quite specific.
[51:22] Am I trying to have a day that's playful and energetic?
[51:25] Is it calm and quiet and peaceful?
[51:28] Is it at any range of things?
[51:29] Is it confident?
[51:31] Am I gonna push us a little bit today?
[51:32] Am I gonna try to step outside of my comfort zone and look for
[51:35] things that are new and unfamiliar?
[51:36] Like, I, I quite consciously set that before I go in to work with that horse.
[51:41] If I can catch myself there, amazing.
[51:44] If I find that I reach a point emotionally where things outside of my horses, things
[51:49] with my horses, doesn't matter what it is, if it's pushed me emotionally to a point
[51:54] where I'm no longer in objective control of my response, I will stop everything.
[52:02] Tying it back into the idea what are the raw ingredients I need for connection-
[52:06] Yeah ... if I was to boil it down to one, it would be responsiveness.
[52:10] Our response to our experience is what defines all of our relationships.
[52:15] It is the most pivotal thing to what creates the r- the
[52:19] reality that we experience.
[52:20] So if I am out of control of my response, I am out of control of my input into the
[52:27] relationship that I'm trying to- Yeah
[52:29] to create.
[52:29] And if we hold the relationship above all else, there should be nothing more
[52:33] important than stopping before I do more damage, or potentially more damage,
[52:39] to this thing that, that I hold so So dear to me until I reach a point just
[52:45] in my body where I can make a plan and- Mm ... and go forward with the plan.
[52:49] And sometimes, I mean, that looks like throwing my whips across the arena and
[52:52] sitting my butt down in the footing, and, and the horse is being like,
[52:55] "Lady, what's... We're in the middle of something. Like, what, what's your
[52:58] problem?" Sometimes they, they don't even recognize that's where I was getting to.
[53:02] Noelle: Mm.
[53:03] Kaleigh Marie: Um, but to be willing to stop and taking it back to the
[53:08] nervous system, like regulate.
[53:10] And regulate doesn't necessarily mean come back to a place of zen and calm, but to be
[53:15] with the feeling instead of so overtaken by it that it's the one calling the shots.
[53:21] Like a witness to the experience instead of a victim of the experience.
[53:26] Noelle: Yeah.
[53:28] It makes me think of, um, like, c- what co-regulation looks like.
[53:32] Mm. But also what co-regulation looks like for horses.
[53:38] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[53:39] Noelle: So it makes me think of a lot of scenarios that I've personally been
[53:42] involved in, but I've also witnessed-
[53:43] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[53:44] ... Noelle: in which the person is having a tough day, a tough year-
[53:48] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[53:49] ... Noelle: a tough moment in their life.
[53:51] Mm. And they go in with the expectation that they're gonna accomplish A, B, and
[53:55] C, and the horse is like, "I'm sorry, but this backpack that you have on you- Yeah
[54:02] I just, like, I'm not... I'm, I, I..." They don't have a pr- I don't think
[54:05] horses have a problem with the backpack.
[54:07] They're just like, "Can we acknowledge that the backpack
[54:09] exists?" Ex- That's exactly the thing.
[54:10] Right?
[54:11] And so then what happens is the, there's, like, a conversation or something, a word
[54:15] happens, or the horse does something- Yeah
[54:17] and it triggers.
[54:18] Mm. And there's this big emotional release.
[54:20] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[54:20] Noelle: And what I wish for the horse world to have a permission slip-
[54:26] Yeah ... for is in those moments- Mm ... where you're like, "I just
[54:31] really wanna have a cry." Yeah.
[54:33] Like, I really, or I really just wanna, like, have a temper tantrum.
[54:35] For someone who has personally have a full-blown adult temper tantrum- Yeah
[54:39] not at my horse.
[54:40] Mm. Like, at the ground, if you push all that energy into the ground-
[54:43] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[54:44] ... Noelle: you know what the horses do?
[54:45] They come over and they're like, "Oh, this is great." The, the release-
[54:49] You're d- you're down-regulating yourself ... is amazing.
[54:51] I'm, I'm in witness to you.
[54:52] They do a bunch of yawns.
[54:53] Mm. They're like, they're j- they're dropping in, and then you both...
[54:56] 'Cause everyone knows that feeling.
[54:58] After you've expressed all this emotion that you had inside you- So much
[55:01] better ... then you're like, "Oh, this feels amazing." You do a big exhale.
[55:04] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[55:05] Noelle: That, to me, what co-regulation is, is it might be zen.
[55:09] I'm someone who there's nothing going wrong in my life, so I'm
[55:11] gonna sit here and, like, meditate.
[55:13] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[55:13] Noelle: That can be for some people.
[55:14] Kaleigh Marie: But it is so much more, I think it can be so
[55:17] much more authentic than that.
[55:18] Yeah.
[55:18] I, I think what you're emphasizing there is also so important in the sense
[55:23] of not just getting on with the work of invalidating the feeling that comes
[55:29] up of, like, sometimes the frustration is there, and we have the tendency or
[55:33] even the capability to say, "No, I'm not gonna be- Frustrated and then we're
[55:37] at odds with ourselves and now trying to work with the horses, like it just
[55:41] We think about co-regulation, this nervous system that beyond just our, our conscious
[55:47] level, like every nervous system is a- aware of the nervous systems around it.
[55:50] Yeah.
[55:51] So it does not matter what's going on up here.
[55:52] It matters entirely what's going on here and what the horse feels from us.
[55:57] So to move through the feeling- Yeah
[55:59] to say, like, "Here's this feeling. I'm gonna get to the other side of
[56:02] it," and whether that is deep breaths, whether it's, you know, having a
[56:06] full-grown adult temper tantrum.
[56:08] Noelle: Adult temper tantrums are the best.
[56:09] Kaleigh Marie: Underrated.
[56:10] Really underrated, but, but expressing it, obviously not- Not at anybody ... not at,
[56:15] not at anybody, not at the horse- Mm-hmm
[56:16] but to, to let the emotion move.
[56:20] Like, we look at the word emotion, it's in the word.
[56:23] Yeah.
[56:23] Motion.
[56:24] Yeah.
[56:24] Like, they're not meant to be stagnant things.
[56:28] Like, motion and emotion are, are one and the same, so to- Absolutely.
[56:32] Yeah.
[56:33] Okay.
[56:33] Noelle: That was like,
[56:34] Kaleigh Marie: that was one question.
[56:36] Noelle: Oh
[56:37] Kaleigh Marie: my God, one question.
[56:38] Noelle: Ooh.
[56:38] All right.
[56:38] But I knew you were- Yeah
[56:39] you're a rabbit hole girl like me, so.
[56:40] It's, I love it.
[56:41] I love it.
[56:41] Okay, my horse ignores my leg.
[56:43] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[56:43] Noelle: And I end up using more and more pressure.
[56:45] Oh my God, this is amazing.
[56:46] Kaleigh Marie: This ties in so well.
[56:47] Noelle: How would you handle that without it turning into a fight?
[56:51] Kaleigh Marie: Mm. Good question, and this is gonna, I think this
[56:56] is gonna tie back into the idea of expectation versus intention.
[57:01] I'd say right now the expectation is that we're able to do things
[57:04] with this horse that require leg, and we're able to accomplish the
[57:08] exercise in a way that feels light-
[57:10] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[57:10] ... Kaleigh Marie: and engaged, where really the intention should be a
[57:14] feeling of responsiveness and lightness.
[57:16] Yeah.
[57:16] And in order to find that, like, if I have a horse who is heavy,
[57:20] potentially, and inattentive, I like to say exaggerate accordingly.
[57:24] This comes back to conversational quality.
[57:26] If I need to put in an excessive amount of effort into the conversation
[57:30] to elicit a response, I want to see a response that matches my effort.
[57:34] Noelle: Mm.
[57:34] Kaleigh Marie: So if I am ... This ties back into what we were
[57:38] literally just talking about.
[57:39] Yeah.
[57:39] If I am very aware of what I want my leg aid to feel like, this is just a
[57:43] principle rule for me, the more effort I need to put in, the more response I need
[57:49] to see if I want to keep a very lively and engaged feeling in the conversation.
[57:56] As soon as it starts to feel like my, my horse is becoming heavier and
[58:00] attentive, there's the opportunity to exaggerate the response I'm
[58:05] looking for and follow through.
[58:06] I do feel that has to come with the curiosity, though, of why is the body
[58:12] not responsive, is gonna be- Yeah.
[58:15] Yeah.
[58:16] This is where it starts to dive a little bit deeper in terms of- The
[58:20] relationship, like we've come back to this idea of response so many times.
[58:23] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[58:24] Kaleigh Marie: The, this raw ingredient of response.
[58:25] I look at it kind of like a ball that we play catch with.
[58:29] We build relationships through exchanging response.
[58:31] Mm. So it's like happening right now, it's like I have the ball right
[58:34] now, then I'm gonna toss it to you- Mm ... and then you toss it to me
[58:36] and, and we build this, this thing.
[58:40] We can separate this out into, into two pieces of exchanging, which is
[58:44] information in and information out.
[58:47] We hear the word sensitivity thrown around a lot.
[58:50] Oh, a horse is sensitive or they aren't sensitive.
[58:52] Well, some of them aren't, but I don't feel it's, it's identified in
[58:57] a correct way because sensitivity is simply information in.
[59:01] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[59:01] Kaleigh Marie: And expression is information out.
[59:04] I find people mix up expression with sensitivity quite often.
[59:07] Noelle: Yep.
[59:08] Kaleigh Marie: To say, "That horse is quite sensitive." No, that
[59:10] horse might be sensitive, but they're also quite expressive.
[59:13] Noelle: Yes.
[59:14] Kaleigh Marie: There are also horses who are very, very
[59:15] sensitive who are not expressive.
[59:17] Noelle: Yes.
[59:17] Kaleigh Marie: Who take in a lot of information, but don't
[59:20] give a lot of information.
[59:21] Give a lot,
[59:21] Noelle: yep, that's very true.
[59:22] Kaleigh Marie: So I need to be asking myself before I, I even get into the
[59:26] physical capability of the horse, what personality type am I working with?
[59:31] Do I have the rapport that I need to actually apply that amount of pressure to
[59:36] the horse and elicit a response in a way that brings clarity to the conversation-
[59:43] Mm-hmm
[59:43] Kaleigh Marie: rather, rather than bringing shock to my horse of like,
[59:47] "Oh my gosh, I've never, I've never experienced this amount of pressure from
[59:50] this person." And, and this amount of what is intended as clarity, but this
[59:56] amount of accountability around the aids, if, if that's not an experience
[1:00:00] the horse has had with the rider, if we make too big of a jump too soon-
[1:00:04] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[1:00:05] Kaleigh Marie: that will shake the confidence of the horse rather
[1:00:08] than improve the responsiveness.
[1:00:10] So I, I think that absolutely ties into it.
[1:00:13] And then just the physical capability and fitness of the
[1:00:17] Noelle: horse in question.
[1:00:17] Yeah, what are you asking, are you asking-
[1:00:18] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:00:19] ... Noelle: something that is fair- Exactly ... or that is
[1:00:20] physically capable of that horse.
[1:00:21] Kaleigh Marie: Mm-hmm.
[1:00:22] Noelle: And I also wanna add as- Yeah ... an altern- like as an additional or like
[1:00:25] an add-on or an alternative- Yeah ... to that exercise you were talking about where
[1:00:29] you're gonna be consistent in the leg aid.
[1:00:31] Mm. You're gonna, um, you're gonna apply, you're gonna start really s-
[1:00:35] you're gonna start really subtle-
[1:00:36] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:00:36] Noelle: and build and build and build until you, until
[1:00:38] you feel an ex- a response.
[1:00:40] Yeah.
[1:00:40] And then you're gonna release immediately because- Yeah ... that's
[1:00:42] what you want, right?
[1:00:43] Mm. And we're trying to establish that pattern of responsiveness.
[1:00:46] If you wanna... I had to rehabilitate the responsiveness- Yeah ... on
[1:00:49] an Andalusian horse that I- Mm
[1:00:51] had that came from a competitive dressage background- Yeah ... who literally has,
[1:00:54] um, like calcification on the side of his-
[1:00:56] Kaleigh Marie: Wow
[1:00:57] ... Noelle: barrel because of spurs.
[1:00:58] Kaleigh Marie: Wow.
[1:00:59] Noelle: And the, one of the coolest, um, and I'd never seen it anywhere else-
[1:01:04] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:01:05] ... Noelle: was Mark Rashid.
[1:01:06] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[1:01:06] Noelle: We were in a clinic, and it was actually his Abydo clinic,
[1:01:09] where he's combining martial arts-
[1:01:10] Kaleigh Marie: Wow
[1:01:11] Noelle: with aikido and, and horsemanship.
[1:01:12] That's fascinating.
[1:01:13] It's one of, if any- Yeah ... I would highly recommend it, and actually
[1:01:16] I was gonna tell Brendan about it- Yeah ... because he's done martial arts.
[1:01:18] That's so
[1:01:18] Kaleigh Marie: cool.
[1:01:18] Noelle: It's one of the most brain exploding experiences-
[1:01:22] Yeah ... because he really helps you understand the impact that- Mm
[1:01:27] that energy has- Yeah ... and how it, like, it's just in the way
[1:01:30] that only martial arts can explain that to you- Yeah ... in your body.
[1:01:33] Yeah.
[1:01:33] But we had a really simple exercise, which was I wanted to rehabilitate
[1:01:37] the so-and-so dullness that this horse had to- Yeah ... the leg aid.
[1:01:41] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[1:01:42] Noelle: And we had physical evidence-
[1:01:44] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, wow
[1:01:45] Noelle: of how and where that dullness had come from.
[1:01:49] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:01:50] Noelle: Okay?
[1:01:50] And so he wanted to, he did exa- He, he gave me that invitation
[1:01:54] the way- Mm ... that you've given that invitation- Mm ... of how to
[1:01:56] rehabilitate sensitivity to the leg.
[1:01:59] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:02:00] Noelle: But what I loved is his alternative, because not everyone
[1:02:02] is comfortable using a whip.
[1:02:03] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:02:04] Noelle: And not everyone is comfortable with that particular aid.
[1:02:06] Mm-hmm.
[1:02:06] Right?
[1:02:07] And I'm not there, I'm not gonna tell anyone if it's good or bad.
[1:02:10] Yeah.
[1:02:10] It's just a matter of whether, h- what your relationship is with that aid.
[1:02:13] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:02:14] Noelle: Right?
[1:02:14] Kaleigh Marie: Absolutely.
[1:02:15] Noelle: So what he did was, it's all about the energy- Mm ... in your body that's
[1:02:18] a, that's ask- that's using that- Mm-hmm
[1:02:20] like, that, that's asking that question.
[1:02:22] He said, "Instead of tapping it on the horse, tap your leg."
[1:02:26] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[1:02:26] Noelle: So you pu- I
[1:02:27] Kaleigh Marie: love that.
[1:02:28] It's
[1:02:28] Noelle: the coolest.
[1:02:28] Kaleigh Marie: I love that-
[1:02:29] Noelle: Yeah
[1:02:29] ... Kaleigh Marie: so much.
[1:02:30] So
[1:02:30] Noelle: it's about- Yeah ... and it was, again, it's about the energetic charge.
[1:02:33] Kaleigh Marie: Cool.
[1:02:34] Noelle: So we're charging the leg.
[1:02:35] Yeah.
[1:02:35] So if you apply your leg aid- Mm
[1:02:38] and you don't get a response, what happens if you tap your leg?
[1:02:40] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:02:41] Noelle: Because that will send energy through your leg.
[1:02:43] Kaleigh Marie: Mm.
[1:02:44] Noelle: And I just wanted to provide that as an alternative- Absolutely ... to
[1:02:47] everybody.
[1:02:47] Kaleigh Marie: And, and to build on that as well, because I, I think what
[1:02:50] you bring out here is becoming more and more of a fas- uh, it's a fascination
[1:02:54] and a focus of mine in the teaching that I do, where so many people find me for
[1:02:59] work they want to do with the horses.
[1:03:01] It really starts to become work with the people as well.
[1:03:04] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:03:04] Kaleigh Marie: Whether it's in liberty, just teaching
[1:03:06] physical movements to people-
[1:03:09] Noelle: Yeah
[1:03:09] ... Kaleigh Marie: apart from the horses, of how do we move, can we
[1:03:11] bring people into their bodies-
[1:03:13] Noelle: Mm
[1:03:13] ... Kaleigh Marie: to work horses at liberty or riding.
[1:03:16] Like, what level of pressure and communication are people comfortable with?
[1:03:21] That is such a deep question that I don't really think anybody is asking of,
[1:03:27] like, it's ... We're all very invested.
[1:03:29] Is the horse okay with it?
[1:03:31] Am I comfortable with it?
[1:03:33] And that idea does not mean I have the opportunity to condemn
[1:03:40] things that I'm uncomfortable with.
[1:03:42] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:03:42] Kaleigh Marie: Because-
[1:03:43] Noelle: Yeah
[1:03:43] ... Kaleigh Marie: that can be a temptation of if I'm uncomfortable
[1:03:46] with it, it must be bad.
[1:03:47] Then it's bad.
[1:03:47] Stay curious about it.
[1:03:49] Yeah.
[1:03:49] Right?
[1:03:49] There's something to learn from- everything, but- Yeah ... to understand
[1:03:54] that there are so many alternatives to keep your nervous system in a state where
[1:03:59] you can be engaged and responsive- Exactly ... to what's going on, 'cause as soon as you
[1:04:03] become, I'm not gonna say uncomfortable is a bad place to be, but so uncomfortable
[1:04:09] that you're more focused on the discomfort than what's actually happening in front of
[1:04:13] you, it's a hard space to be an effective communicator- Well, 'cause then you're not
[1:04:15] Noelle: present
[1:04:16] Kaleigh Marie: and to learn.
[1:04:17] Yeah.
[1:04:17] So beyond just tap your whip with the leg, like for me, I'm an avid clicker trainer.
[1:04:22] Mm. I am a clicker trainer.
[1:04:23] Mm-hmm.
[1:04:23] I love positive reinforcement.
[1:04:25] I do feel in the horse world, it is wildly misrepresented-
[1:04:29] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[1:04:29] ... Kaleigh Marie: as a way to say good job to horses.
[1:04:31] I completely agree.
[1:04:31] It is not.
[1:04:32] It's a science experiment.
[1:04:33] It's fascinating.
[1:04:35] It gives me the ability off of a noise to produce dopamine release
[1:04:40] in the horse that I'm working with on a specific moment in time.
[1:04:44] I need to, if I arm myself with a tool that is that powerful, where I'm changing
[1:04:48] the physical, chemical makeup of a living being, I have to be consistent
[1:04:53] in where the changes are happening.
[1:04:56] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:04:56] Kaleigh Marie: If we're clicking left and right because the horse, oh,
[1:04:58] they're doing such a good job and I want to give them a cookie, the horse
[1:05:01] has become dysregulated and frustrated- Yeah ... and often sometimes miserable
[1:05:05] because they're unsure of how to replicate the, the situation- Absolutely ... the
[1:05:11] activity that produced the food.
[1:05:12] So consistency is the most important thing, and consistency
[1:05:16] in their response to us.
[1:05:19] If we want clicker training to serve the connection, I'm not just clicking
[1:05:22] for things that I want my horse to actively look for, like dopamine says,
[1:05:26] "That feels great. Let's do it again." I want them to be actively looking for
[1:05:31] things that happen in response to me.
[1:05:33] I, like, supercharge their desire to respond to me, rather than
[1:05:37] just clicking and treating the things that they find really fun,
[1:05:39] which they think it is really fun.
[1:05:41] So that, that consistency is important as well.
[1:05:43] But for something like this where maybe, like I'm gonna put
[1:05:47] myself in this situation, I have a student with a heavy horse.
[1:05:50] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:05:50] Kaleigh Marie: A horse that's needing to be rehabilitated to sensitivity
[1:05:54] around the leg, and the student is lacking confidence, right?
[1:05:58] Maybe the idea of picking energy up and, and pressure up at all-
[1:06:02] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[1:06:02] ... Kaleigh Marie: is, is frightening, hon- honestly, like scary, and to
[1:06:07] that nervous system, threatening of like, "I don't think I can do that."
[1:06:10] I need to take the tools that I have to arm that person and that horse with
[1:06:15] their highest possible chance of success.
[1:06:18] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[1:06:18] Kaleigh Marie: So even if we break that down from the exercise of, okay, when I
[1:06:21] put my leg on, I'm a confident person.
[1:06:23] I have a rapport with this horse.
[1:06:25] I'm gonna touch with the whip and say, "Canter."
[1:06:27] Maybe I say, "We're gonna not use the whip at all." Maybe we put the leg
[1:06:31] on, and for me, my general rule is five times or less, five applications
[1:06:37] or less of leg, whip, what have you, before I become annoying and- Unclear-
[1:06:43] Mm ... in what I want my horse to do.
[1:06:45] So I would challenge that student in five movements or less with the leg.
[1:06:48] Maybe the leg gets bigger, but as soon as we feel 2% more energy
[1:06:53] in the horse, we click and treat.
[1:06:54] Yes.
[1:06:54] Right?
[1:06:55] So now I'm using intrinsic motivation in the horse to say, okay, I'm,
[1:06:58] I'm adding this additional external motivator to say, "Hey horse who's not
[1:07:04] very motivated, can you bring more of yourself to the conversation to produce
[1:07:10] a feeling that this person needs to have," ideally to progress them on the
[1:07:16] journey that they would be able to use pressure to communicate with the horse.
[1:07:21] I, I emphasize that because pressure is my direct line of
[1:07:25] communication to the nervous system.
[1:07:27] Mm-hmm.
[1:07:27] Clicker training, amazing.
[1:07:28] Mm-hmm.
[1:07:29] Epic, really, in what it can do for horses.
[1:07:31] What I do with my horses, I couldn't do without clicker training, really.
[1:07:35] But I need to have a horse who is emotionally resilient
[1:07:38] and comfortable with pressure.
[1:07:40] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[1:07:40] Kaleigh Marie: So I'll never use my clicker training as a, a permanent
[1:07:43] diversion from an issue with pressure in a horse or a person.
[1:07:47] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:07:47] Kaleigh Marie: That's something I won't do.
[1:07:48] Temporary solution to produce a feeling that will build confidence
[1:07:52] to get them there, absolutely.
[1:07:53] Mm-hmm.
[1:07:54] So there's so many different ways we could, we could do things like that.
[1:07:57] Noelle: Well, and I think- Yeah ... as we, also anything I mention before
[1:08:00] we move on to a next question- Yeah ... is too, I think horses that
[1:08:02] are dull to pressure in general-
[1:08:05] Kaleigh Marie: Mm
[1:08:05] ... Noelle: I think have been made to be that way.
[1:08:07] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:07] I think we can agree to that.
[1:08:08] Like, I do think, I mean, there's a spectrum of- Yeah ... the level,
[1:08:11] the responsiveness to pressure.
[1:08:13] Mm-hmm.
[1:08:13] But I think having, I think there's enough evidence out there to, to
[1:08:22] really say that horses that are dull- Yeah ... to pressure are actually
[1:08:26] often the ones that are most sensitive.
[1:08:28] Mm. And they built the strongest protection- Absolutely ... against
[1:08:30] it because it was too much, too quick, too soon.
[1:08:33] Kaleigh Marie: Absolutely.
[1:08:34] I,
[1:08:34] Noelle: I would agree with that as well.
[1:08:35] Right?
[1:08:35] I'm noticing
[1:08:35] Kaleigh Marie: that a lot.
[1:08:36] Yeah.
[1:08:36] Yeah.
[1:08:36] Yeah.
[1:08:39] Ooh, it's my turn.
[1:08:40] I'm gonna go for this little guy right here.
[1:08:46] We have, what's something you've changed your mind about in your
[1:08:48] training over the last few years?
[1:08:51] Ooh.
[1:08:52] Oh, gosh.
[1:08:53] Where do we, where do we take this one?
[1:08:55] I'm, I'm gonna roll with the first thing that pops into my head, uh, which
[1:09:00] would actually be clicker training.
[1:09:01] Cool.
[1:09:02] And the, I guess the, the beginning of my journey with clicker
[1:09:08] training with horses was it was a tool that I used for everything.
[1:09:14] Everything.
[1:09:14] From the foundation all the way through the more advanced maneuvers
[1:09:17] because in my head, why not?
[1:09:20] Why not?
[1:09:20] It's such a, a cool feeling.
[1:09:22] It's an empowering feeling to have horses who are genuinely excited
[1:09:27] to show up and try to do the things that you're asking them to do.
[1:09:32] Mm-hmm.
[1:09:33] That idea of like, why not?
[1:09:35] This, this feels good.
[1:09:36] The, the feeling was good.
[1:09:37] The excitement was there.
[1:09:38] My horses were, to me, fairly happy in the work that we were doing.
[1:09:42] That served me well, well enough until I started to try and
[1:09:46] perform with my horses at liberty.
[1:09:49] When I took behaviors that were clicker trained- Mm-hmm
[1:09:52] and I put them into environments with substantial pressure-
[1:09:56] Noelle: Yeah
[1:09:57] ... Kaleigh Marie: everything crumbled.
[1:09:59] Noelle: Really?
[1:09:59] Kaleigh Marie: Immediately.
[1:10:01] Immediately.
[1:10:01] And, and it produced a curiosity in me that took me literally across oceans.
[1:10:09] Like, I traveled... This is when I worked with Ben Atkinson.
[1:10:11] Mm-hmm.
[1:10:12] Uh, eventually Will Rogers.
[1:10:14] Uh, since then I, I've met Mia Radley, like, just- Yeah
[1:10:16] people across seas that have become, um, inspirations and, and friends of
[1:10:21] mine, looking for clues and answers as to essentially how to elicit curiosity
[1:10:31] without food, 'cause it was such an, a, such a, a pillar in everything that I did
[1:10:37] to say, "Okay, I can elicit engagement and curiosity with the presence of food."
[1:10:40] And I know there are people out there that say, "Oh, I want my horse
[1:10:43] to want to work with me and, and not want to work with me because I
[1:10:46] have food." I don't mind either way.
[1:10:48] Yeah.
[1:10:48] Like, if I'm exciting because I can provide you with this thing, amazing.
[1:10:52] Noelle: Mm.
[1:10:52] Kaleigh Marie: Like, I'm... It's not a personal affront to me.
[1:10:55] But when I started to feel that one, in the, the performing space, the things
[1:11:03] that were so consistent at home were not predictable at all, it started to
[1:11:09] highlight that there was a lack of felt safety in the horses in those spaces.
[1:11:15] It's like the, the value that they found in performing the things for the food-
[1:11:19] Noelle: Mm
[1:11:20] ... Kaleigh Marie: didn't outweigh the lack of security they felt
[1:11:22] in being with me in the space.
[1:11:25] Noelle: Gotcha.
[1:11:25] Kaleigh Marie: So that was a, a key to the wheels that started to turn,
[1:11:32] and really the dominoes that started to fall into wanting to, to fix
[1:11:37] and repair more and more areas of disconnect that I started to notice.
[1:11:41] It's one of those things, once you see it, you can't unsee it.
[1:11:43] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:11:44] Kaleigh Marie: I started to see it in the performing spaces, and then
[1:11:46] even at home practicing with them, I started to notice when they were
[1:11:50] engaged with me at liberty, like when we were working at liberty, if and when
[1:11:54] they were engaged, they were amazing.
[1:11:56] They were intense, and excited, and, and happy to be there.
[1:11:58] But if they disconnected, the disconnect was immense.
[1:12:02] Like, it wasn't just drift off and come back.
[1:12:05] It was huge emotional overwhelm, take off, run around, come back.
[1:12:09] It's like the energy was- Up all the time
[1:12:13] Noelle: Hmm.
[1:12:14] Kaleigh Marie: Which I found to be very, very puzzling.
[1:12:16] And I, I like couldn't quite put the pieces together because I
[1:12:20] was so precise and so particular.
[1:12:23] Like, I, I had reviewed everything that I knew about clicker training, about
[1:12:28] the consistency and the timing of the click, the position that I was treating
[1:12:31] them in, the rate of reinforcement, the kind of food I was reinforcing with.
[1:12:35] Like, everything was, it was like brain surgery.
[1:12:39] I was so, so confused by what was missing.
[1:12:44] Yeah.
[1:12:44] I was, I was so precise in what I was doing.
[1:12:47] And it was at that point that I connected with Ben, Ben Atkinson-
[1:12:52] Yeah ... over, over in England.
[1:12:54] And Ben as a person, amazing.
[1:12:57] The experience I had with him there, like I'll, I'll sum it up so quickly
[1:13:01] because I could talk about it for so long.
[1:13:02] Within an hour of meeting the guy, I was Roman riding two of his
[1:13:06] horses with six horses at liberty.
[1:13:08] Like, it was- Cool ... crazy experiences.
[1:13:10] And for the remainder of that time, and then I went back a second time
[1:13:15] for longer and worked with him, worked with his horses, to feel his horses
[1:13:20] who he did not use food with, who were so genuinely excited to just show up.
[1:13:27] And it's like they didn't have to know what you were doing, but they wanted
[1:13:30] to be a part of it, especially for me.
[1:13:32] I didn't know them.
[1:13:33] I didn't know his training style, but he would let me work with them and play
[1:13:36] with them, and they were so interested in what I was trying to tell them to do.
[1:13:41] They didn't care if I was unclear, like they were just there to work with me.
[1:13:44] I was like, "This is the piece.
[1:13:46] I have no idea how to replicate this, but I know that this is it.
[1:13:50] This is what I want to feel with my horses, is that they're just
[1:13:52] genuinely happy to be with me.
[1:13:55] If food is a part of that, amazing.
[1:13:56] If it isn't-
[1:13:57] Noelle: Yeah
[1:13:58] ... Kaleigh Marie: fine.
[1:13:58] I don't know how to navigate that, but fine." And I went home from that
[1:14:02] trip, and the first thing I did, just out of curiosity, was I took food out.
[1:14:07] I was like, "What do I have if the food isn't there?" And within
[1:14:11] two days, my horses gave me a resounding answer, which was nothing.
[1:14:16] Like, quite literally, they would not walk with me at liberty without
[1:14:21] the click and the treat, which was humbling and terrifying and
[1:14:25] relieving all at the same time.
[1:14:28] Because like you mentioned b- before in, in Brendan's interview, the rock bottom.
[1:14:34] You wanna talk about rock bottom- Yeah ... as an up and coming aspiring
[1:14:38] liberty trainer and performer, to have your two best horses just flat out refuse.
[1:14:44] And, and when I say refuse, like if there was pressure, they would run-
[1:14:48] Whoa ... in the opposite direction.
[1:14:50] So it exposed a huge hole in the foundation that I had with
[1:14:55] them, which was the relationship that they had with pressure.
[1:14:59] And the idea that I, I finally, this came full circle for me
[1:15:03] later after I rebuilt everything.
[1:15:06] And when I s- say, say rebuilt, I invented the method that I have today
[1:15:11] with them in that stage of my life.
[1:15:13] I was like, "I need tools that lead to peaceful duration and relaxation
[1:15:17] with pressure." That was, like, the, the huge piece I was missing.
[1:15:20] And to realize later once I had that, that all of the time they spent with
[1:15:25] me motivated by food at liberty was in resistance to the tension that they
[1:15:31] were also feeling in accordance to the pressure I was applying with them.
[1:15:36] When the, the value of the food outweighed the discomfort of the pressure, they
[1:15:40] would stay, and when the discomfort of the pressure outweighed the value of the
[1:15:43] food, they would go, which was like, whoa.
[1:15:47] Yeah.
[1:15:47] So there's this, this narrative in, in the positive reinforcement world
[1:15:52] that you can train with positive reinforcement without pressure.
[1:15:57] I don't believe that that's true because to me- I don't believe that's
[1:16:00] Noelle: true either
[1:16:00] ... Kaleigh Marie: pressure is anything that activates the nervous system.
[1:16:03] Yes.
[1:16:04] Anything that activates the nervous system.
[1:16:06] The nervous system is designed to be activated.
[1:16:10] Yes.
[1:16:10] I see this in positive reinforcement circles as well,
[1:16:12] is that they view stress as bad.
[1:16:14] Stress is necessary in controlled and predictable environments- Yes ... so that
[1:16:19] I can prove, whether it's, it's humans or horses, 'cause we're the same here,
[1:16:23] whether it's me proving to myself that I am capable and I can overcome this
[1:16:28] challenge in front of me and find safety in myself and in the space around me
[1:16:33] to add strength and resilience to that system, or if it's in my horse with, and
[1:16:38] sometimes without my help, them having a good relationship with the internal
[1:16:43] activation of their nervous system.
[1:16:45] Yes.
[1:16:45] Meaning they feel activation and they feel capable of regulating themselves.
[1:16:50] That, to me, became not just the new pillar of working them at liberty, but
[1:16:56] has become, I feel, a responsibility that as people we have to the horses.
[1:17:01] Noelle: Mm.
[1:17:02] Kaleigh Marie: Of if I was to leave my horses with one thing, if there
[1:17:07] came a day where we had to part ways, which I pray to the heavens will never
[1:17:11] happen because they are everything to me, but if it had to happen, if I
[1:17:14] could leave them with one thing, it would be their capability to regulate
[1:17:19] their nervous system without my help.
[1:17:20] Yes.
[1:17:21] Noelle: Yes.
[1:17:21] Kaleigh Marie: Without my help.
[1:17:22] I find so often we look at the idea of, of leadership as, as like I just
[1:17:27] want my horse to be happy following me.
[1:17:30] They're without me, like right now.
[1:17:32] They're at home.
[1:17:32] They're so happy.
[1:17:33] I'm, I'm not helping them.
[1:17:34] Yeah.
[1:17:34] And, and the idea that I can provide them with- The, the opportunity and
[1:17:41] the education to physically change how they experience the world around them.
[1:17:47] Like, if, if we train intentionally with nervous system informed training,
[1:17:51] connection based training, it's not just that we have a great relationship with the
[1:17:55] horses, it's that physically we provide them with tools that they would never have
[1:18:00] otherwise- Mm ... to be relaxed and secure in a world that was not made for them.
[1:18:06] Noelle: No.
[1:18:06] Kaleigh Marie: And that's, it's a beautiful thing to, to have that.
[1:18:09] Actually,
[1:18:09] Noelle: the world we live in was not made for lots of things.
[1:18:11] Kaleigh Marie: I know.
[1:18:11] Noelle: Lot, like- It really is ... as, I'm like sitting here
[1:18:13] Kaleigh Marie: like- And people too, it's like that's me too.
[1:18:15] Of, of like it's not, it's not made for us to connect with each other.
[1:18:19] It's not made for us to find that regulation either.
[1:18:21] Noelle: Like, I think it's so important- Yeah ... to, to, to
[1:18:24] emphasize that the world we live in is m- is not made for a lot of things.
[1:18:28] Mm-hmm.
[1:18:28] So when we say, "Oh, the world is not made for horses," it's not made for community.
[1:18:32] It's not made for-
[1:18:33] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:18:33] ... Noelle: you know, like for alternate ways of thinking-
[1:18:36] Yeah ... for our diverse people.
[1:18:37] Like, there's lots of things in which- Mm ... the world is not made for.
[1:18:40] So horses are not, you know, like it's... And, and- Yeah ... so that, I think that
[1:18:43] gives us even access to more empathy.
[1:18:45] That, okay- Absolutely ... how can we give them all the skills to thrive-
[1:18:48] Absolutely ... and to be empowered-
[1:18:50] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:18:50] ... Noelle: in the, in the environment that they live in.
[1:18:52] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:18:53] So to, to wrap that all the way back to clicker training- Yeah ... like the,
[1:18:56] the role it plays for me now, if I was to kind of grossly oversimplify it, I
[1:19:01] would boil it down to two words- Mm-hmm ... which is quality and difficulty.
[1:19:05] So if I have a, an area of quality, like for me a huge piece of my work at
[1:19:10] Liberty is self-carriage and posture.
[1:19:13] And posture not as in vertical flexion, because it is quite easy
[1:19:16] to produce false posture in liberty horses, which I did actually for a
[1:19:21] long time through clicker training.
[1:19:23] But to produce correct physical biomechanical posture in all of
[1:19:29] the horse, that's a huge piece of the work that I do at Liberty.
[1:19:32] To- Cool
[1:19:33] to develop them not just emotionally, but, but physically, and that is
[1:19:37] a piece I clicker train hugely.
[1:19:39] Uh, so whether it's, it's a piece like that, quality, and, and we look
[1:19:44] at things like trick training, things like that, areas that we can start
[1:19:48] to bring the clicker training into.
[1:19:49] Or difficulty, if I have a horse who is a little outside of the box, maybe
[1:19:53] a foundational exercise that I would typically be training with pressure and
[1:19:57] release, to take the opportunity to let that horse develop a good relationship
[1:20:02] with pressure, to help the nervous system become more resilient if needed.
[1:20:06] If there's a piece that is hugely difficult and I'm lacking curiosity and
[1:20:10] motivation, and it's becoming detrimental in the relationship we, we have with each
[1:20:14] other, I will absolutely go get a treat pouch and start clicker training maybe
[1:20:19] earlier than I might with another horse- Mm-hmm ... for that specific exercise.
[1:20:23] But I really look at the exercise as the context for where food
[1:20:27] is available and where it isn't.
[1:20:29] If I train something with food, food will always be woven into the
[1:20:33] conversation of that thing, which is what comes back to consistency.
[1:20:37] Like, I can't just use it for a little while and then take it out completely.
[1:20:44] If I intentionally phase clicker training out through... Like, we, we
[1:20:48] build behavior with clicker training through consistent reinforcement.
[1:20:52] Mm-hmm.
[1:20:52] Maybe gradually upping the expectation to shape the behavior
[1:20:56] into what we want it to be.
[1:20:58] We would phase it out through inconsistent reinforcement, which when we've created
[1:21:02] a behavior that we like, eventually becoming more and more inconsistent.
[1:21:07] At first just a little bit, maybe there's a repetition I would usually
[1:21:10] click for that I'm just not gonna click for this time, and maybe one turns into
[1:21:14] two or three, turns into five or six.
[1:21:16] Over a period of days, weeks, months, we phase the food out.
[1:21:20] That is an option.
[1:21:21] So when, uh, I say that we're not just gonna stop using the food,
[1:21:26] that's not what I mean, 'cause that's an option on the table.
[1:21:27] What I do mean is that I'm not gonna introduce food to that horse
[1:21:31] for one or two weeks and then take it out because now I have the
[1:21:34] exercise and I can just move on.
[1:21:35] Noelle: Mm.
[1:21:36] Kaleigh Marie: I can increase the expectation to say, when you perform a
[1:21:41] higher quality version, difficulty and quality, a higher quality version of
[1:21:46] this thing, I'll click and treat for it.
[1:21:48] So now I'm not clicking and treating for just the, the elementary movements
[1:21:52] that I might be using on a daily basis.
[1:21:54] But my gosh, if you do a really good job, better than I'm expecting you
[1:21:57] to, I could click and treat for that.
[1:21:59] But it's not something that is optional or intermittent once we
[1:22:03] start to train a behavior with it, if we really want to live by the idea
[1:22:07] of consistency, which I really think with clicker training we need to.
[1:22:10] Noelle: I think you've given a lot of people permission- Yeah ... in this
[1:22:13] episode- Yeah ... to, like, to try and to fail and to change or to, to
[1:22:18] really succeed- Mm ... at something.
[1:22:19] Like, I love the way that you were able to articulate so beautifully-
[1:22:25] Mm ... this experience of integrating clicker training and then all of
[1:22:28] a sudden being like, "Hold on."
[1:22:30] Hold on.
[1:22:31] Like, full rock bottom.
[1:22:32] Yeah.
[1:22:32] Like, I'm a liberty training, a trainer- Yeah ... and my best
[1:22:35] horses cannot be at liberty with me.
[1:22:37] Kaleigh Marie: Mm-hmm.
[1:22:37] Noelle: That's really powerful to provide a permission slip-
[1:22:41] Mm ... to change and to pivot-
[1:22:44] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:22:44] ... Noelle: and to the power of, like, the evolution- Mm ... that you can pick
[1:22:48] up and put down, pick up and put down.
[1:22:50] Kaleigh Marie: Always, and, and you should forever.
[1:22:52] Like, I, I think if you ever reach a space where you're like, "Yep, this is
[1:22:56] good. This is where I'm gonna operate for the rest of my time here on this
[1:23:00] green earth," like, you've, you've lost the purpose of being a horse person-
[1:23:04] Yeah ... which is to learn- continuously.
[1:23:07] That's not always comfortable, and referencing the, the round
[1:23:11] table discussion I got to witness yesterday, like the- Yeah
[1:23:14] the feeling of learning is not parallel to the outcome of
[1:23:19] learning, which learning sucks.
[1:23:21] Like, you can- Yeah.
[1:23:22] ... feel like, like you suck at what's going on, and usually the most influential
[1:23:27] lessons that we learn are the lessons that, that are the most challenging-
[1:23:31] Mm ... and the most painful, and it doesn't feel good to go through it, but
[1:23:34] my gosh, on the other side of it, that's where I, I really feel like that's where
[1:23:39] we develop and grow the most as people.
[1:23:41] Yeah.
[1:23:41] Yeah.
[1:23:42] Noelle: Ugh.
[1:23:42] Yeah.
[1:23:43] We need to do a follow-up, 'cause I have so many- I'm so excited ... more
[1:23:45] questions I wanna ask you.
[1:23:47] But in our well-held tradition- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna dive into
[1:23:52] our rapid fire, 'cause I'm really- Okay ... excited to hear your answers.
[1:23:54] Yeah, I'm
[1:23:54] Kaleigh Marie: excited
[1:23:55] Noelle: too.
[1:23:55] And then we're gonna keep all those questions-
[1:23:57] Kaleigh Marie: Yes, and-
[1:23:57] Noelle: And we're gonna do a follow-up.
[1:23:59] Okay.
[1:23:59] There's so many, much more that I- So many ... wanna dive into with you.
[1:24:02] Kaleigh Marie: So many.
[1:24:03] Noelle: Okay.
[1:24:03] Who is the most iconic horse in history?
[1:24:07] Kaleigh Marie: In history?
[1:24:08] Oh, gosh.
[1:24:11] For me, it would be The Black Stallion, because- I was gonna ask ... that is- Okay
[1:24:15] ... the movie I watched so many times.
[1:24:17] The scene on the beach, running around at liberty so many times as a kid.
[1:24:21] Uh, just I, I feel like in all of us there's, like,
[1:24:25] that, that little horse kid.
[1:24:26] Like, for me, it's that- Okay ... little horse girl, and I
[1:24:28] still f- I still feel her in there.
[1:24:30] Like, there are moments with my horses where I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, there
[1:24:32] she is." Like, me sitting on the couch being like, "I wanna do that one day."
[1:24:37] Uh, and I, I do feel like that's just an iconic movie.
[1:24:41] Noelle: I-
[1:24:41] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:24:41] ... Noelle: can't tell you how many people have told me how that scene in that
[1:24:44] movie- Yeah ... has been, like, h- made s- I don't know if those people who made
[1:24:47] that, like, the team that made that movie-
[1:24:49] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah
[1:24:50] ... Noelle: if they, if, if Francis Ford Coppola would've known that
[1:24:53] he was gonna make a film that would have that much impact- Yeah
[1:24:57] on horse people- Mm ... that scene.
[1:24:59] Mm. But do you know, do you ... You probably do know this.
[1:25:02] Do you know, like, who The Black Stallion, who that, like, the story is based off?
[1:25:06] I, I actually
[1:25:07] Kaleigh Marie: don't, no.
[1:25:07] Noelle: It's based off of... So the, the, the movie itself is- Yeah ... based off
[1:25:11] of Alexander the Great and Bucephalus.
[1:25:13] Kaleigh Marie: Wow.
[1:25:14] Noelle: The boy- Yeah, that's the beginning
[1:25:15] tames the un-tameable horse.
[1:25:16] The
[1:25:16] Kaleigh Marie: beginning, yeah.
[1:25:17] That whole-
[1:25:17] Noelle: The beginning horse, wow ... the whole story frame- Mm ... of The Black
[1:25:20] Stallion is- Yeah ... based off of-
[1:25:21] Kaleigh Marie: That's
[1:25:22] Noelle: so cool ... that, that legend, that's, that, those people in history.
[1:25:25] Wow.
[1:25:25] So most valued, undervalued skill as a
[1:25:28] Kaleigh Marie: rider.
[1:25:30] Anything that lets you feel your body more.
[1:25:34] Outside of horses, dancing, gymnastics, yoga.
[1:25:37] Like, get in your body.
[1:25:38] Move your body.
[1:25:40] Cool.
[1:25:40] Because if you're not moving your body, it is, it, I feel
[1:25:44] like it goes one way or another.
[1:25:45] I love that.
[1:25:46] Yeah.
[1:25:46] It, it degrades or it gets stronger, so make it stronger and feel
[1:25:49] it as much as you possibly can.
[1:25:51] Yep.
[1:25:52] Yeah.
[1:25:52] Noelle: I love that.
[1:25:52] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:25:54] Noelle: Who is the greatest horseman or horsewoman in history?
[1:25:58] Kaleigh Marie: Gosh, in hist- These are, these are big questions.
[1:26:00] Uh, I'm n- I'm not gonna overthink it, 'cause I could-
[1:26:03] Over complicate this in a big way.
[1:26:07] And this, this one's so, th- this is tripping me up a little bit because so
[1:26:12] many people have contributed so much.
[1:26:15] I think I'm gonna go more in the direction of who, who has inspired me in the
[1:26:21] most wholesome way, not just as like a- Mm ... a facet of their horsemanship or
[1:26:25] a facet of them as, as a person that I've really been inspired by, but just as a
[1:26:30] person with their horses, who have I just been enamored by since the beginning of
[1:26:35] this, and it would be Silvia Zerbini.
[1:26:37] I think she's phenomenal.
[1:26:39] As a person, her poise, her ability to communicate, her presence, like being
[1:26:44] in a room with somebody that from the first time I saw her at Equine Affaire
[1:26:48] in 2018 to, like, producing BreyerFest.
[1:26:51] Last year, Brendan and I were, were in the show at BreyerFest.
[1:26:54] Any time you're in the room with her, you are inspired and a little
[1:26:56] bit scared every single time.
[1:26:59] And it's not, it's, she's so kind and so articulate, but it's just in
[1:27:03] the way that she carries herself.
[1:27:04] Cool.
[1:27:04] And the understanding she has of the horses, and her, her show presence,
[1:27:09] her ability to present to an audience, I feel like in the world of liberty
[1:27:13] performers right now, she's up there as, as one of the best of the best.
[1:27:17] Cool.
[1:27:17] So yeah, I really, I enjoy her a lot.
[1:27:20] Noelle: Okay, and last question.
[1:27:22] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:27:23] Noelle: Which I'm curious actually gonna be your answer.
[1:27:25] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:27:25] Noelle: Mares, stallions, or geldings?
[1:27:27] Kaleigh Marie: Stallions.
[1:27:29] Noelle: Hey.
[1:27:30] Why?
[1:27:31] Kaleigh Marie: Why?
[1:27:32] We take a look at connection, what we want to have for healthy nervous
[1:27:38] system regulation and interaction.
[1:27:40] Huge pieces of it, responsiveness, curiosity, and social engagement.
[1:27:45] And if you were to embody those things in a horse, where so many horses,
[1:27:50] mares, geldings, I find this kind of work has to draw those things out,
[1:27:54] and then eventually we have, like, who they are as an individual in the room
[1:27:58] with us, and, and we get to shape them.
[1:28:00] Quite consistently with stallions, it's the opposite of, like, whoa, let's dial
[1:28:04] those things back until we have the pieces that we need to just allow whoever
[1:28:08] you are to, to come into the room.
[1:28:10] Like, they love to express themselves so much.
[1:28:14] And I think beyond that, just their level of, of enthusiasm
[1:28:19] and expression for the work.
[1:28:21] Mm. I really, I really enjoy them a lot.
[1:28:23] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:28:23] Well, Kaeli, thank you so much.
[1:28:25] Kaleigh Marie: Thank you so much for having me.
[1:28:27] Coming on the pod- Yeah ... we
[1:28:28] Noelle: all learn
[1:28:28] Kaleigh Marie: a
[1:28:28] Noelle: ton.
[1:28:29] Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.
[1:28:29] Noelle: So thank you.
[1:28:30] Kaleigh Marie: Amazing.
[1:28:32] Noelle: Nice, dude.
[1:28:33] Kaleigh Marie: Well
[1:28:34] Noelle: done.

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