# The Move Most People Get Backwards With a Cow — and What It Teaches About Horse Training | Martin Black (Pt. 2)

An episode of [The NOËLLE FLOYD Podcast](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1770253354), 17 Aug 2026, 1 h 07 min.

Audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/344db67d-7a82-4d70-b677-33cd980033c3/Martin_Black_2_Part_2.mp3?dest-id=4715857

You think the cow is the hard part. She isn't. You are. You get ahead of her to turn her, and she beats you to the herd every time. You spur, you pull, the horse's head comes up, and now nobody is watching the cow at all. Martin Black has read millions of head of cattle, and the horse training lesson underneath all of it is the one almost everybody gets backwards. To cut one cow out, you leave her alone and stir the herd around her. To turn her, you turn away — not toward. The horse rates the cow the way a foal learns to rate its mother in the first thirty minutes of life. It's already in there. Our job is to stay out of the road so the horse can use it. This is Part 2 of my week with Martin on his ranch in the Great Basin. Part 1 is the ranch, the horses, and reading the moment — start there. We work the balance point and the flight zone, and why a cow reads your horse's head like a horn and your horse's hip like something softer. Why getting in front of a cow to block her only sends her faster. What Tom Dorrance told Martin decades ago about turning tail, and how that one idea makes a green horse handier by the day. Gene Lewis, his mother's cousin, and jumpers that rate a fence with nobody telling them where to put their feet. Then the part that reshaped how I keep my own horses. Turnout over stalls. Bare feet when the ground allows. A crick to cross and rocks to pick through, because a horse who has to sort out the terrain grows savvy, and a horse who never has to stays a passenger. Martin runs horses as a business, not a companion animal, and says his vet bills will stand against anyone's. Colic almost unheard of. Feet the ground keeps honest. It made me ask what I was really protecting when I bubble-wrapped mine. The horse training here is subtraction, not addition. Cows think more like horses than you'd guess, and empathy runs under all of it. Martin Black is a lifelong Great Basin horseman and stockman from a multi-generation ranching family, working in the vaquero tradition and the lineage of Tom Dorrance. He spent ten years starting young horses at Calumet Farm in Lexington and now teaches horsemanship and stockmanship through clinics and a ranch school. If you want to go further with your own horse, NF+ has 70+ masterclasses at noellefloydplus.com or through the app link in the show notes. In This Episode You'll Learn • The move almost everyone gets backwards: to hold a single cow, you leave her alone and stir the herd around her • Why getting in front of a cow to block her only sends her faster back to the herd — and what to do the instant she turns • How a cow reads your horse's head like a horn and your horse's hip like something softer, so a leg-yield moves her where a headbutt would spook her • What Tom Dorrance told Martin about turning tail to a cow, and how it makes a green horse rounder and handier by the day • Gene Lewis and colts that rate a fence themselves, with nobody telling them where to put their feet • Why a collected walk finally had a purpose the day Noelle worked cattle on Lady • What ten years starting babies at Calumet and a lifetime in the Great Basin say about turnout, bare feet, and letting a horse sort out rough ground • The barbed-wire story, and what a horse who navigates real terrain has that a bubble-wrapped one lacks Chapters 0:00 Part 2: cutting a cow by leaving her alone 1:40 Holding cattle without a fence — what it takes 3:40 Sorting without stalking: keeping a cow parasympathetic 5:40 Cows think like horses — Dr. Peters & Temple Grandin 8:30 The old way wasn't the cruel way 10:40 After WWII: how the mechanized age lost the horsemanship 11:20 What a chuck wagon really was (Great Basin history) 14:34 \[ad: Total Feeds\] 17:49 The balance point & flight zone, explained 21:00 Rating: the foal, the herd, and the safe place 26:40 Headbutt vs. tail-butt: why a leg-yield moves a cow softer 30:40 The move most people get backwards: never turn into the cow 33:43 \[ad: Noelle's…

## Transcript

[0:00] Noelle: Heads up.
[0:01] This is part two.
[0:03] Part one is where Martin and I get into the ranch, the
[0:08] horses, and reading the moment.
[0:11] So go back for that one first.
[0:15] Here, it's cattle.
[0:17] He's read millions of them, and he breaks down the move most people get backwards.
[0:25] To cut one cow from a herd, you leave her alone and stir the cattle around her.
[0:32] Cows think more like horses than you'd guess, and empathy runs under all of
[0:38] it Before we begin today's episode, I'd love to ask for your support.
[0:45] The simplest way to support this podcast is to hit follow or
[0:49] subscribe wherever you are listening.
[0:52] It helps the show reach more people who care about the same things that we do.
[0:57] Better horsemanship, deeper conversations, and a more thoughtful future for
[1:02] horses and the people who love them.
[1:05] And if this podcast has meant something to you, leaving a rating, a review,
[1:09] or a comment makes a huge difference.
[1:13] So thank you for being here.
[1:15] I really do not take your time or attention for granted.
[1:19] Now,
[1:20] Martin: let's dive in to today's episode.
[1:23] Noelle: So this is a really great opportunity to talk now, to break down
[1:28] what it takes, what are the ingredients, and I'm excited to dive into this 'cause
[1:34] I experienced this working with your cows.
[1:37] What's required in order to keep a rodeer in place without any fencing?
[1:44] Whether it be horses or whether it be cattle.
[1:46] And I experienced, after we worked our cows, your cows, I felt so
[1:51] much more in tune with my horses.
[1:53] And when I was loading them, I felt so, like my, my gestures, whatever
[1:58] I was asking for, had to be so much subtler because I had been working on
[2:02] the balance point, the flight zone, being aware of my footfall, my horse's
[2:07] footfall in relation to the cow.
[2:09] It just, again, it's like these are really important skills.
[2:12] So let's break down for everybody who's listening, what are the
[2:15] skills required to do this work?
[2:19] Martin: Well, this is where empathy comes in.
[2:22] Noelle: Yay, you said it first.
[2:25] Martin: I'm, I'm still working on what empathy actually means, but anyway.
[2:31] But it goes back to understanding what that horse is, not thinking, but what
[2:39] he's going to think because you know what's gonna happen next before he does.
[2:43] Noelle: Right.
[2:45] Martin: So it's controlling that environment.
[2:47] You know those horses are moving around and pretty quick they're gonna
[2:51] leave the rodeer and start grazing out this way or maybe break and run.
[2:55] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[2:56] Martin: You've, you've had to turn them back so many times, you know they're
[3:00] gonna start drifting that direction before they even think about it.
[3:05] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[3:06] Martin: You know after about three or four hours, these cattle are
[3:11] gonna say, "We're tired of standing here. Our bellies are getting empty."
[3:15] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[3:16] " Martin: We're getting thirsty, and we don't like it here anymore."
[3:20] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[3:20] Martin: Okay?
[3:20] So you just try to get your work… You just know those things.
[3:25] And then you make your choice, "Okay, we still have work to do.
[3:28] They're gonna be hard to hold, but we need to be here for another hour or two-
[3:32] Noelle: Right
[3:32] … Martin: to get the job done." You know those things before the livestock knows
[3:36] it, whether it's cattle or horses.
[3:39] So when I go in the rodeo or say to work a cow out, we never talked about this.
[3:47] I typically, and I know some cutters that do this, most of them don't.
[3:55] You go to sort a cow, and if you go in there and you get in sync with that cow
[4:02] as you're driving it out of the herd-
[4:03] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[4:05] … Martin: that cow starts going, "Uh-oh, there's a predator stalking me"
[4:09] Noelle: Mm
[4:09] … ' Martin: cause you're making those moves-
[4:10] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[4:11] … Martin: like a predator.
[4:12] But the tactic I do, and I see a handful of cutters I know, and there's,
[4:18] there's a lot of cutters I don't know.
[4:19] Noelle: Yeah.
[4:20] Martin: So I'm not saying there's only a few handful of them that do it.
[4:22] Of the ones I know, there's only a handful that do it.
[4:26] They'll go in there and it's like
[4:30] These cattle get, you go that way, and this cow might kind of look back there.
[4:36] You make sure you're not in sync with that cow.
[4:38] You just kind of look the other way, kind of give them that
[4:41] feeling, and they're sympathetic.
[4:44] You're not sympathetic aro- arousing that cow.
[4:48] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[4:48] Martin: You're sympathetically arousing the other cattle around it.
[4:52] Noelle: Mm.
[4:52] Martin: So you kind of brush the cattle away here, you brush the cattle
[4:55] away here, and this cow just keeps coming out here, and pretty quick it
[5:00] looks around and it's out there by itself like, "Where'd everybody go?"
[5:04] It's still in the parasympathetic.
[5:07] Noelle: Oh, cool.
[5:08] Martin: Now you drop the hammer and put your hand down and start
[5:11] doing your cutting horse thing-
[5:12] Noelle: Mm
[5:12] … Martin: if you're in the cutting world.
[5:13] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[5:14] Martin: In my world, you get it out there, and if you just barely arouse
[5:21] it, and this cow has some training
[5:25] It looks out at what we call the prada-
[5:27] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[5:27] Martin: the cattle that you've already sorted.
[5:29] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[5:29] Martin: And it goes, "Eh, this looks like it can be uncomfortable.
[5:33] I'm going out there to that herd."
[5:34] Noelle: Mm.
[5:35] Martin: That's how we train our cattle.
[5:36] Noelle: Cool.
[5:38] Martin: And so back to how does that relate to horses?
[5:41] Noelle: Yes.
[5:43] Martin: I've probably interacted with literally millions of cattle.
[5:49] Every calf I rope, I'm reading it.
[5:52] Every cow I cut, I'm reading it.
[5:55] There's 100 cows here I'm trailing along, I'm interacting with these
[5:59] cattle I need to push, those cattle that are in the lead.
[6:04] I'm reading, you know, and, and people understand the term reading cattle.
[6:09] Noelle: Yes.
[6:10] Martin: Okay, we don't need to get into fight zone, balance
[6:12] point, blah, blah, blah.
[6:13] You know, parasympathetic, sympathetic, blah, blah, blah.
[6:16] It's reading, reading them.
[6:18] So it's knowing what they're going to do, and knowing where
[6:22] you need to be to affect them.
[6:24] Noelle: Mm.
[6:24] Martin: That's simple enough.
[6:27] But what a lot of people don't realize is like, "Ah, these horses are real smart.
[6:32] Cows are stupid." Cows are not stupid.
[6:36] They're simple maybe, but cattle, I don't know that they think
[6:43] any different than a horse.
[6:45] Mm. And I've been trying to get Dr. Peters to join me and-
[6:52] document something on stock handling on this basis-
[6:56] Noelle: Hmm
[6:58] … Martin: of first of all understanding that you can affect how a cow thinks just
[7:04] like you can affect how a horse thinks.
[7:06] My family's been doing it.
[7:07] People in this area's been doing it.
[7:09] That's how we make our living.
[7:11] Now some people might have a better understanding than others,
[7:15] but you gotta have some of this working in an open range condition.
[7:19] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:20] I bet, I wonder if Temple Grandin would be interested in doing that with you, because
[7:25] she's done work with horses and with cows.
[7:27] Martin: But what she does, uh, a lot of things would line up, but from
[7:34] what I've read her stuff, she's kinda coming from a little different angle.
[7:39] Noelle: Yeah.
[7:40] Martin: I don't think she would come out here and do what we're doing.
[7:45] Noelle: What you and Steve would do?
[7:47] Martin: What… I would have to explain some things-
[7:50] Noelle: Hmm.
[7:50] Hmm
[7:51] … Martin: when we're out here working cattle.
[7:53] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[7:54] Martin: Now she's got a lot of insight, uh, and she's, she's done
[7:59] some good things with people that basically had corrals that didn't work.
[8:04] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[8:05] Yeah.
[8:06] Martin: Well, that's obvious anybody that has worked cattle very much knows
[8:11] what works and what doesn't work.
[8:13] Noelle: Yeah.
[8:14] Martin: You know, and square corrals, that was made, the railroad designed
[8:18] those in cities that had square streets and square blocks and blah, blah, blah.
[8:23] Noelle: Hmm.
[8:24] Martin: They didn't think in terms of how cattle mill.
[8:29] Noelle: Yeah, cow psychology, they didn't think about that.
[8:31] Martin: Yeah.
[8:33] Cattle don't see things, and that's what she points out, but that's what a
[8:38] lot of people that, that understand the stockmanship that I'm talking about-
[8:41] Noelle: Yeah
[8:42] … Martin: not the rodeo, we're gonna force 'em, and hot shots, and you know,
[8:46] I mean, she's done a great job showing people that you don't need the hot shots.
[8:50] You don't need to force cattle.
[8:52] It's, it's like what a lot of people wanna think is the traditional way of
[8:58] working cattle or traditional way of horsemanship And I kind of take offense
[9:04] to that because they say the old way.
[9:06] Noelle: Yeah.
[9:08] Martin: And granted, there was the, a lot of stuff in the old days.
[9:11] They laid them down and rolled them in the saddle and rode
[9:13] them up and blah, blah, blah.
[9:14] Okay.
[9:16] You know, they beat them to submission.
[9:18] Eh, I guess some p- people probably did, but there was a lot of people
[9:23] that I was around that know.
[9:26] They was working off the chemicals, just like I'm talking about
[9:29] working these horses outside.
[9:31] Noelle: They were nice bartenders.
[9:32] Martin: You're not gonna just smash them into a chute and with
[9:35] a hot shot to do your whatever, branding, doctoring, whatever it was.
[9:41] No, you had to ease around there and, you know, it wasn't rodeo.
[9:45] You didn't chase them down to get a loop on them.
[9:47] You snuck around there, and maybe they're standing, maybe they're, they're
[9:50] walking, uh, and you drop a loop on them.
[9:54] Noelle: Well, and I'll speak to this.
[9:56] You know, being here and experiencing the heat that exists in the Great
[9:59] Basin, I can't imagine any of the things that we see in the movies or what some
[10:05] people might interpret as the old way.
[10:08] None of that would fly in this kind of heat.
[10:10] Martin: That's my point.
[10:11] Noelle: Everybody would get- No … exhausted.
[10:13] People, horses, cows.
[10:15] None a- You gotta do it like the, the subtle, gentler, more efficient
[10:20] way because the heat, the conditions in this environment do not allow
[10:25] you to exert that kind of energy.
[10:28] Martin: Well, to, to back up a little bit, not get on this rabbit trail too long.
[10:33] The old days that I'm talking about where we worked horses in an open
[10:37] rodeo, you had to have this kind of horsemanship we're talking about.
[10:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[10:42] Martin: After World War II, the mechanized revolution came in.
[10:46] Mm-hmm
[10:48] A lot of that was lost.
[10:50] A lot of those people were unemployed.
[10:52] Noelle: Mm.
[10:53] Martin: They had to go do other things.
[10:56] Uh, and it's just gradually went the other way.
[10:59] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[10:59] Martin: I mean, we have more fences.
[11:01] We don't have crews.
[11:02] We don't- ranches don't pull a wagon like they used to.
[11:06] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[11:06] Martin: Very few outfits you hire onto, you would follow the chuck wagon
[11:11] around all summer, you know, branding calves and gathering your beef.
[11:15] Yeah.
[11:15] That was common, common when I was a kid.
[11:17] Noelle: Yeah.
[11:18] Martin: I mean, I don't know how many different wagons
[11:19] there was in the Great Basin.
[11:21] 15, maybe 20.
[11:23] Now there's maybe two or three.
[11:26] Noelle: Can you explain to everyone, just as a fun si- a fun
[11:29] fact here, what is a chuck wagon?
[11:32] Martin: It, it's, it's a commissary wagon.
[11:37] The supplies, food-
[11:39] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[11:40] … Martin: are carried in one or two wagons.
[11:43] In this area, they usually had a bed wagon-
[11:45] Noelle: Mm
[11:45] … Martin: f- to throw their bed rolls on.
[11:47] Noelle: Yeah.
[11:47] Martin: And then the, the chuck wagon.
[11:50] Uh, and that's what you ate out of.
[11:54] You know, and I don't… I mean, you see them in the movies.
[11:57] Noelle: Yeah.
[11:57] Okay, so I think- And people
[11:58] Martin: see
[11:58] Noelle: chuck wagon races now, and they think… I don't think they realize, I
[12:00] mean, I certainly didn't, what the history of a chuck wagon is and its importance.
[12:06] Martin: Well, the military had them.
[12:07] Anybody, uh, that- Mm … you know, the wagon trains, they had their own deal.
[12:14] But, but basically in those days, you didn't go to the restaurant.
[12:19] And unless you was, which I've done plenty of, you know, you take your pack
[12:23] horse and, you know, minimal groceries, minimal equipment to prepare food-
[12:29] Noelle: Yeah
[12:29] … Martin: on a pack horse and your bed roll-
[12:31] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[12:32] Martin: and you go through the country like that, or you
[12:33] go, you know, do whatever.
[12:36] That's one way of traveling.
[12:37] But if you had a crew, which a lot of these crews were 10 to 20
[12:41] men or maybe even more on a ranch.
[12:45] My great uncle said when he was a kid, there were six different vaquero wagons
[12:52] where he grew up, up here on the mountain.
[12:54] Noelle: Wow.
[12:54] Now,
[12:55] Martin: you do the math.
[12:56] Even if there's only 10 guys on each crew, which there was more
[13:00] than likely closer to 20- That's a
[13:02] Noelle: lot of people
[13:02] … Martin: on each crew, that's a lot of vaqueros-
[13:05] Noelle: Yeah
[13:06] … Martin: right here for, you know, him to watch and do everything.
[13:10] They were only there for a short season.
[13:12] Noelle: Mm.
[13:13] Martin: But they'd come through the area, gather up all the cattle.
[13:16] But each one of them, back to the point, each one of them had their own wagon.
[13:21] Their own crew.
[13:22] They worked together.
[13:23] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[13:24] Martin: Uh, but yeah, and they, they, they would gather, you know,
[13:27] we're talking millions of acres that they would go through and gather all
[13:32] over this Mojave Desert out here.
[13:34] But it was the same way anywhere else, in Texas or Arizona or…
[13:39] That's, that's how they, they did it.
[13:42] You know, the little family outfits didn't get far from home- Mm … but
[13:45] they still went out and worked with these, like my family, worked with
[13:48] these outfits that run a wagon.
[13:50] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[13:51] Martin: A lot of these guys that run a wagon, they might have been
[13:53] absentee owners, you know, Miller and Lux and some names like that.
[13:56] They were based in California.
[13:58] Noelle: Mm.
[13:58] Martin: But they run cattle up here.
[14:00] Some of them had property, a lot of them didn't.
[14:04] A lot of them were transit livestock owners
[14:08] Noelle: So let's talk about the balance point
[14:11] Martin: Mm-hmm
[14:12] Noelle: Let's talk about the flight zone, these things that are
[14:15] transferable between working cows and starting colts and working
[14:22] cows with horses, because it was…
[14:24] I've had, I've experienced some unbelievable light bulb
[14:27] moments this week with you.
[14:30] Let's explain to everyone what is the balance point and why is it important?
[14:34] Martin: Well, m-
[14:36] Noelle: Okay, before we get back into the conversation, I wanna
[14:39] share something that has genuinely changed the way I feed my horses.
[14:44] One of my horses, Lady, who I talk a lot about on this podcast, and who
[14:49] some of you know, is a sassy Appaloosa and a notoriously picky eater.
[14:56] She does not like feed with a lot of fillers or chemicals.
[14:59] She is sensitive in every way, including her skin, which has always
[15:03] made feeding her a careful process.
[15:07] She lets me know quickly when something does not agree with her.
[15:11] Finding a feed that she could eat consistently and that supports
[15:15] her overall wellbeing has mattered more to me than anything else.
[15:20] Total Equine by Total Feeds has been that feed.
[15:24] When I first tried Total Equine, I was super skeptical.
[15:29] It looks more like kibble than pellets, and I judged the look of it right away.
[15:34] Also, it's affordable, and as someone who's grown up deep in the competitive
[15:39] world of show jumping, I immediately interpret quality with price.
[15:44] Nothing in the horse world can be both good quality and affordable, right?
[15:49] Well, wrong.
[15:52] My horses have never looked better, and they love it.
[15:57] Thanks to important trace minerals like copper, zinc, and selenium,
[16:01] Lady's digestion is steadier than ever.
[16:04] Her weight is great, her coat quality improved measurably, and her top line has
[16:08] stayed intact even with time off after our epic road trip across the country.
[16:14] That alone would have been enough to earn my trust, but that trust
[16:19] was tested in a big way when we took Lady and Galano across the country.
[16:24] Traveling over 25,000 miles with your horses demands consistency and
[16:29] nutritional integrity to balance the stress and demands of the road.
[16:36] Having a feed I could rely on no matter what made a huge difference.
[16:41] Total Equine kept both my horses nourished and settled through long hauls,
[16:46] new environments, and constant change They are one of the only horse feeds
[16:52] in the industry to use Norwegian kelp, providing essential iodine, minerals,
[16:57] prebiotics, and thyroid support.
[17:01] I cannot say enough good things about Total Equine by
[17:04] Total Feeds, developed by Dr.
[17:07] Harry Anderson, who I now consider a friend and ally in the fight
[17:11] for good horse care in this time of inflated prices and impossible
[17:16] economics in the horse world.
[17:19] I am careful about what I recommend, especially when it comes to nutrition.
[17:24] I've never spoken publicly about horse feed before, and
[17:27] I am proud to speak up now.
[17:29] Total Feeds has earned its place in my barn because it supports my
[17:33] horses in a way that is noticeable, measurable, and reliable.
[17:39] If you wanna learn more about their approach to feeding, visit
[17:42] totalfeeds.com or pick up a bag at your
[17:45] Martin: local Tractor Supply
[17:49] Noelle: Let's explain to everyone what is the balance point and why is it important?
[17:53] Martin: Well, reading cattle is something that most people kinda
[17:59] understand or they can say, "That guy can really read cattle," but to put
[18:04] more definition to it, what the cow is looking at is, let's say you're bringing
[18:11] this cow out to the edge of the herd.
[18:14] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[18:15] Martin: The cow is gonna say, "I wanna go back to the herd, and I
[18:20] think I can go in front of you-
[18:23] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[18:23] Martin: easier than going behind you."
[18:25] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[18:26] Martin: If the cow wants to go in front of you, that means you're behind her.
[18:29] Noelle: Yes.
[18:30] Martin: Okay?
[18:31] So you pull up forward here a little bit and you block her, and if she turns
[18:38] and says, "Now I'm gonna go behind you," you're in front of the balance point.
[18:42] But if you can rock up there and you got her balanced, she's not going
[18:47] forward, she's not going backwards, she's not going right, she's not
[18:50] going left, you have her balanced.
[18:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[18:53] Martin: That's the balance point.
[18:55] Noelle: What it felt like, and I'm curious what you think about this, for
[18:58] me, experiencing for, it for the first time working the cows with Lady and with
[19:02] G was it felt like you're kind of… And, and this is why it's so important, and
[19:08] this is why stockmanship is so powerful for our horsemanship, is I learned I had
[19:13] to shorten my horse's footfall- Mm-hmm
[19:16] because cows walk shorter than horses.
[19:18] Their
[19:19] Martin: legs are shorter.
[19:19] Noelle: Their legs are shorter, right?
[19:21] Martin: It's like walking with your grandkid.
[19:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[19:23] Martin: He either has to run or you need to walk slower.
[19:25] Noelle: Right.
[19:27] So collected walk all of a sudden had a purpose.
[19:31] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[19:31] Noelle: Because I can't f- I can't find the balance point with this cow on Lady-
[19:37] Martin: It, it-
[19:37] Noelle: unless I can
[19:38] Martin: shorten the walk … it doesn't necessarily need to be a collected walk.
[19:40] Noelle: But for me, where, the, my world, where I come from, right, collected
[19:44] walk all of a sudden, shorter footfall or slower footfall or more thoughtful
[19:50] steps, all of a sudden had a purpose.
[19:52] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[19:53] Noelle: Right?
[19:54] Whereas, during your lesson or your training, and okay, we're gonna work on
[19:57] collected and extended walk, right, you're just, like, in an arena, you go, "Okay,
[20:02] collected walk, extended walk, I don't…"
[20:04] It's just a skill.
[20:06] It doesn't have a purpose.
[20:07] But
[20:07] Martin: you can have a slow walk without it being collected is my point.
[20:09] Noelle: Yes.
[20:10] Yeah.
[20:11] So it, all of a sudden I had to be aware of my pelvis.
[20:13] I had to be, I had to ask, because I can't keep asking with the bridle, I have
[20:19] to ask with my entire body, while lining myself up and observing and really trying
[20:25] to get in tune with that cow, right?
[20:28] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[20:29] Noelle: That was… But it felt like trying to find the balance point between
[20:34] me and my horse and that cow felt like you're trying to, like, connect, like
[20:40] you're trying to collect, connect, like, a string between the two of them.
[20:44] Martin: Well-
[20:47] Noelle: And you can feel when you hit it, and then you can
[20:50] Martin: feel when you leave it So that balance, horses know.
[20:53] They have it in there.
[20:54] Noelle: Right.
[20:56] Martin: Whether we're trying to get this foal that's got the
[21:00] halter on him for the first time-
[21:01] Noelle: Yes
[21:02] … Martin: to connect to you.
[21:03] Noelle: Yeah.
[21:03] Martin: We led those colts on a loose rope.
[21:05] Noelle: Yesterday, yes.
[21:06] Yeah.
[21:07] Martin: We never took the slack out of the rope when they were following us.
[21:10] Noelle: Absolutely.
[21:11] ' Martin: Cause we didn't pull on them.
[21:13] We got behind them and yahooed them enough that they went,
[21:16] "I think I'll step up here."
[21:18] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[21:19] Martin: And they finally, and this is what I was waiting for, instead of
[21:23] you just being an obstacle and they're going, "Do I go around you this way? Do
[21:26] I go around you this way? Do I stop?"
[21:28] You stop, the person behind you pushes them forward.
[21:32] So pretty quick, the horse is like, "Eh, I guess I don't need to go around this
[21:36] person. I'm comfortable right here."
[21:38] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[21:39] Martin: They was comfortable with their mother.
[21:42] In the first 30 minutes of life, they learned to rate
[21:47] their mother That's in there.
[21:50] Noelle: Yes.
[21:50] Martin: God put that in there.
[21:51] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[21:53] Martin: They know that.
[21:54] We don't have to teach them that.
[21:56] So where this foal has done this with its mother, it gets weaned, it does it
[22:03] with the herd, it stays with the herd.
[22:05] Just like the birds, you know, they, you can have a thousand
[22:07] birds in the sky and they turn to the right, they turn to the left.
[22:10] Who says right or left?
[22:12] Noelle: Nobody.
[22:13] Martin: They just know that.
[22:14] Noelle: Yes.
[22:15] Martin: You know, um, is it telepathy?
[22:16] I don't know.
[22:18] But fish do it, birds do it-
[22:21] Noelle: Yep
[22:21] … Martin: livestock do
[22:22] Noelle: it.
[22:22] Horses do it.
[22:23] Martin: You can watch-
[22:23] Noelle: Deer do
[22:24] Martin: it … you can watch a herd of cattle, and not quite as
[22:29] in sync as birds and that, but, but when they start milling-
[22:32] Noelle: Yes
[22:33] … Martin: they all start milling because they don't wanna run into each other.
[22:35] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[22:35] Martin: They might be a little dumber than fish and, than a
[22:38] fish, but but they, they do.
[22:40] Noelle: Mm.
[22:40] Martin: So your horse has that in there.
[22:44] So whether that horse is gonna hook onto you on the end of that rope, that
[22:49] rope only came tight when it went to go around you and you turned it back.
[22:53] Noelle: Mm.
[22:54] Martin: But it found this safe place following you, right?
[22:58] Noelle: Correct.
[22:59] Yeah.
[22:59] Martin: Just like the safe place with its mother, safe place in the herd, we
[23:02] show 'em this safe place with this cow.
[23:05] Noelle: Mm.
[23:05] Martin: So the horse learns to rate this cow.
[23:09] We don't have to collect 'em.
[23:11] Noelle: Right.
[23:12] Martin: Same as that foal last night.
[23:15] It goes past the cow, you turn it back.
[23:17] Noelle: Yes.
[23:18] Martin: It gets too slow with the cow, you bring it up, and pretty
[23:23] quick it finds this spot right here that feels comfortable.
[23:27] Now, we can change that.
[23:29] We can say, "Okay, I wanna balance this cow straight away from the herd-
[23:34] Noelle: Yeah
[23:34] … Martin: and drive it out," or, "I wanna balance this cow
[23:37] and keep it going forward."
[23:38] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[23:39] Martin: You can change the target, but you're still
[23:42] balancing it toward that target.
[23:44] You still have a balance point.
[23:46] A lot of people watch the cutters, oh, they're trying to keep it out of the herd.
[23:50] Yeah, but what if you cut the cow over here on the rodere
[23:54] and the gate's over here-
[23:56] Noelle: Mm
[23:56] … Martin: or your corral is over here?
[23:58] That cow needs to go over there and then leave the herd.
[24:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[24:02] Martin: So the balance point is wherever you're pushing it, and the balance point
[24:06] is based on how the cow wants to get back.
[24:09] It's an offense/defense thing.
[24:10] Noelle: Totally.
[24:11] Martin: The cow's goal post is the herd.
[24:14] Noelle: Yeah.
[24:14] Martin: Your goal post is whatever over here.
[24:17] So if you're over here, you're trying to rotate that cow around the rodere to get
[24:23] it to go out for whatever reason, to the-
[24:27] Noelle: This is where the light bulb moment happened
[24:29] for me, and I could feel it.
[24:31] I could feel it in especially my mare, Lady.
[24:34] I could feel it all of a sudden because you invited me in working those cows
[24:39] and those young heifers who hadn't been worked that much, so it was really fun.
[24:43] Some of them were really kind of quiet and observant.
[24:46] Some were a little bit more flighty, and so you have to adjust your plan.
[24:49] You have to adjust your…
[24:52] The situation is, is adjusting constantly moment to moment, right?
[24:55] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[24:56] Noelle: But this is where I had this light bulb moment, where all of a
[24:58] sudden… 'Cause w- you invited me and you explained that you're gonna use
[25:02] your head's, your horse's head, your sh- your horse's shoulders, and your horse's
[25:07] hindquarters, and the entire angle of the horse's body to influence the cow.
[25:13] Okay, this is where it's really fun because this is where the
[25:15] Venn diagram happened in my brain.
[25:17] W- And I could feel it happen in my mare, where all of a sudden yielding off the
[25:22] leg, a side pass in Western or a leg yield in the English world, all of a sudden turn
[25:27] on the haunches, turn on the shoulder, maybe a slight, you know, bend in, in
[25:32] the neck, a slight bend in the cervical spine, all of a sudden that had a purpose,
[25:38] and it had a purpose moment to moment.
[25:41] So all of a sudden my, my, my mare especially was becoming more and more,
[25:45] "Oh, okay, what do we…" Because I… You can feel this connection where
[25:49] they make it and you make it, where I have… You must yield off of my
[25:53] right leg because we need to, we need to bump this cow out five feet, and I
[25:58] wanna bump it with your hindquarters.
[26:00] I want you to do a side pass to the left because I don't want to turn my
[26:04] horse's body to the cow because that's, that's gonna cause it to, that's gonna,
[26:09] that's gonna enter into the flight zone.
[26:11] That's gonna push that cow in an aggressive way, and
[26:14] we don't want to do that.
[26:15] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[26:18] Noelle: That was like a really remarkable light bulb moment for me and why I
[26:23] think everyone should work their, work cows with their horse at least once
[26:27] so that the horse can understand, "I'm not just giving you pressure with my
[26:31] l- right leg for the f- for, for fun.
[26:34] There's a reason, and there's this outside external factor b- that's causing this."
[26:39] Martin: Can I fill in the blanks- Please … for the people who say,
[26:41] "What the hell is she talking about?"
[26:43] Noelle: What's this yip, jib she's talking?
[26:46] Martin: So, uh, everybody, what she left out was-
[26:52] Cattle communicate with each other, especially horned
[26:57] cattle, it's more obvious.
[26:59] They headbutt each other.
[27:00] They stab each other with their horns and say, "Get out of my way." They don't
[27:05] kick, they don't bite like horses do.
[27:07] Noelle: Right.
[27:08] Martin: So calves from the time they're little, the cows butt 'em around, and
[27:14] that's just, that's just how they talk.
[27:16] Bulls fight, you know, they go at it, they're headbutting.
[27:18] Noelle: Yes.
[27:18] Martin: That's what I call headbutting.
[27:21] And so a cow might just real subtly tip their horn just a few inches, and the
[27:27] cow next to him is looking, and it's just like a horse, you know, pin in an ear.
[27:32] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[27:33] Martin: Kind of the same thing.
[27:34] He's saying, "I don't want you any closer."
[27:37] Noelle: Mm.
[27:38] Martin: Or, "Get away from my flake of hay."
[27:40] Noelle: Mm.
[27:40] Martin: Whatever it is, that's a subtle sign of aggression.
[27:44] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[27:45] Martin: Okay?
[27:46] So this cow sees this four-legged animal with a head hung out there on the end of
[27:53] a long neck, and it goes, "Eh, it's not a cow, but it kind of looks like a cow."
[28:01] "And I don't see any horns on it," but all of a sudden, its head comes over there.
[28:07] So what's a cow gonna say?
[28:09] "Well, I've never been bit, I've never been kicked, but I have been headbutted
[28:13] plenty." That's their language.
[28:14] Noelle: Mm.
[28:15] Martin: And then you got a predator up here directing this funny-looking
[28:21] four-legged animal with a long neck, and this animal's acting kind of aggressive.
[28:28] So the cow's gonna go, "Mm, it looks funny. It, it, I don't know
[28:32] the way, like the way it acts," and they're gonna yield to it.
[28:34] Noelle: Yeah.
[28:35] Martin: Now, if it's a fighting animal, they might fight.
[28:38] We've pretty well bred that out of them.
[28:40] Noelle: Mm.
[28:41] Martin: But if you watch the bullfighting, that's what they do.
[28:43] Noelle: Yeah.
[28:43] Martin: Is the bulls will challenge-
[28:45] Noelle: The horses
[28:46] … Martin: the guy-
[28:46] Noelle: And the riders, yeah … the
[28:47] Martin: bullfighter with, on the horse.
[28:48] Noelle: Yeah.
[28:50] Martin: Okay, so it's, it's there.
[28:51] We've bred it out of these cattle pretty well.
[28:53] Noelle: Mm.
[28:54] Martin: So that's the head butt.
[28:56] When you steer your horse's head to that cow and that cow says,
[29:00] "Uh-oh, here comes a horn," they don't know they don't have horns.
[29:03] But
[29:04] Noelle: also, I want everyone to imagine, this is like inches.
[29:07] This is a very small amount of, of, of movement.
[29:10] It doesn't have to be big.
[29:11] Martin: It's as subtle as a horse moving an ear.
[29:14] It's as subtle as a cow tipping the horn.
[29:17] It's as subtle as your horse's poll broke that way.
[29:21] Noelle: Yeah.
[29:22] Martin: Your horse can be dead straight and break its poll and tip to that
[29:27] cow like that, and that cow knows it.
[29:30] Noelle: Yeah.
[29:31] Martin: You can have your horse's, and this is where I'm going with this,
[29:34] you can have your horse's nose poll broke away from the cow, and the cow
[29:40] goes, "It ain't even looking at me.
[29:41] I don't need to worry." So that's where I say, "Yeah, but I wanna move you, but
[29:46] I don't wanna move you with a head butt because you're gonna be too intimidated."
[29:50] Noelle: Yes.
[29:50] Martin: So here's where your leg yield comes in.
[29:54] You tail butt this cow.
[29:56] You just take a step maybe with the tail, and the cow's gonna
[30:00] go, "What the hell is that?"
[30:02] They don't know that a horse can kick.
[30:05] Noelle: Yeah.
[30:06] Martin: Like, they've never been kicked by another cow.
[30:08] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[30:09] Martin: So when you step your horse's hip in there, it's a lot softer move
[30:14] toward the cow than a head butt.
[30:17] They're intimidated by a head butt.
[30:18] They kind of go, "What is this?" But you get about, I'm gonna say twice as
[30:23] close with your horse's hip, and the cow goes, "Eh, I think I'm gonna move
[30:28] away," and she'll move away a lot softer.
[30:30] Noelle: Yes.
[30:31] Martin: So that's why we need this leg yield, or it might even be
[30:35] kind of a quarter turn to where you back into that cow's flank-
[30:38] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[30:39] … Martin: and you're pointed straight away.
[30:40] Noelle: Mm-hmm Okay, now let's talk about the turning away
[30:46] Martin: Oh my God, you never turn away
[30:50] Noelle: Okay, this is, everyone, this is a really important piece
[30:54] because this, this is how I understood that you can press the gas and you
[30:59] can press the brake with a cow.
[31:01] And all I've ever seen is the gas, and then once you press the gas, you
[31:05] have to keep pressing the gas, and then it becomes, that's where things
[31:08] kinda get out of control, right?
[31:10] Because not all of us are taught that you can actually decelerate a cow, and you can
[31:16] slow them down, and you can speed them up.
[31:19] Martin: Well, back to the head butting.
[31:22] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[31:23] Martin: The pole tip to the cow or the pole tipped away from the cow.
[31:27] So take that on a line of travel.
[31:30] If the cow is going on this line and you're going on a parallel line.
[31:36] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[31:38] Martin: Now, it can be a bent line.
[31:39] You can be going around the herd-
[31:41] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[31:41] … Martin: but you're still on these lines, they're just bent.
[31:44] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[31:45] Martin: Okay?
[31:46] But you're still parallel.
[31:47] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[31:48] Martin: Just not on a straight line, so we understand that.
[31:51] As soon as those lines become what I call inside parallel, you're
[31:58] inside of that parallel line, so now you're closing in on the cow.
[32:02] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[32:03] Martin: Now, it can be because you turned toward the cow, or it can be
[32:07] because the cow says, "I don't wanna get away from the herd any further."
[32:10] Noelle: Yeah
[32:13] Martin: they turn toward you.
[32:14] You're still inside parallel.
[32:16] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:16] Martin: Doesn't matter who initiated it.
[32:18] Noelle: Right.
[32:18] Martin: So now the cow is saying, "Uh-oh, we're on a collision course. Here
[32:24] comes a headbutt." And so they're gonna speed up, they're gonna turn, they're
[32:27] gonna do something to change that.
[32:30] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:32] Martin: And maybe you're over here and the cow does that.
[32:35] She starts to speed up.
[32:37] You turn outside of parallel, same as turning tail.
[32:44] So now the headbutt goes further away, and there's only minimal circumstances-
[32:50] Mm-hmm … that the cow won't slow down.
[32:52] Noelle: Yeah.
[32:53] Martin: The majority of circumstances, the cow goes, "Eh, he's leaving. I'm
[32:58] safe now," and they'll slow back down.
[33:01] But people have a tendency, the predator has a tendency, "I gotta
[33:05] get ahead of that cow to stop it."
[33:06] Yeah.
[33:06] "I need to block it."
[33:07] Noelle: But all it does-
[33:08] " Martin: Get in front of it."
[33:08] Noelle: Yeah, and all it d- And this happened to me, 'cause I did it.
[33:11] I did that textbook.
[33:12] Martin: Everybody does it.
[33:13] Noelle: Yeah, and what happened was all you did was squeeze the cow
[33:17] faster ahead of you, and the cow is gonna beat you in, in my situation.
[33:21] Martin: The, the majority of people, ranchers, good horsemen, cowboys, uh,
[33:28] in the show world, it doesn't matter.
[33:30] The majority of the people don't understand what we're talking about here.
[33:35] They don't understand how the predatorial movements that we do get
[33:40] in their way and cause more trouble.
[33:43] Noelle: I want to take a quick pause to invite you into my brand-new Substack.
[33:49] Each week, I publish essays on the horse world, from equine industry insights,
[33:55] horse culture, equine economics, even the more mystical, spiritual, and
[34:01] relational side of life with horses.
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[34:10] and working through with my own horses.
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[34:34] You can find my Substack at noellefloyd.substack.com or
[34:40] through the link in the show notes.
[34:43] Now, let's get back to the episode.
[34:47] Martin: The majority of the people don't understand what we're talking about here.
[34:52] They don't understand how the predatorial movements that we do get
[34:57] in their way and cause more trouble.
[34:59] Noelle: Mm.
[35:00] Martin: Now, if you can just understand this, but people are gonna say, "Well,
[35:03] how do you teach your horse to watch a cow if you don't, if you turn tail?"
[35:08] Noelle: Yeah.
[35:10] Martin: Okay, I'm not saying you don't turn into the cow, but answer
[35:15] me this, and I've seen this plenty.
[35:18] Uh, here, here's the person, and I've seen this on, in different
[35:23] countries, different continents.
[35:25] It's, it's a universal thing because people are predators.
[35:28] Doesn't matter if you're in Australia or America.
[35:31] So the cow turns, so you, I gotta turn into it.
[35:35] So you go to headbutt it.
[35:37] Now the cow goes faster.
[35:39] Yeah.
[35:39] So now you gotta go faster on this donkey that really doesn't know how to go faster.
[35:43] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[35:43] Martin: So you stick him in the shoulder, the neck with a spur, and you pull his
[35:47] head, and his head is up here horizontal.
[35:50] Noelle: Yeah.
[35:51] Martin: He's looking at the sky, and he's intimidated as hell because,
[35:56] you know, you're ripping his face and stabbing him with spurs.
[36:00] Is this horse looking at the cow?
[36:02] That's the last thing he's thinking about.
[36:04] And by the time you get turned around, if you haven't chased the cow back into
[36:08] the herd, he comes out of that and he's still not l- thinking about the cow.
[36:13] He's thinking about all the traumatic stuff that just happened in this turn.
[36:16] Noelle: Yeah.
[36:18] Martin: Okay?
[36:18] So what's the solution?
[36:21] Turn away from him.
[36:22] Noelle: Well, and also when we talk about how horses see, a horse pointing
[36:28] their nose directly at the cow, they don't… That's not how they see.
[36:31] They don't see like we do.
[36:32] Well, they- They have peripheral vision
[36:34] Martin: they see out there a ways, though.
[36:36] Noelle: Yeah.
[36:37] I mean, it's- But I'm saying if we turn away from the cow, the
[36:39] horse is gonna have their eye on the cow for a good chunk of that-
[36:41] Martin: Better than the person.
[36:42] Noelle: Yeah.
[36:43] Martin: Way easier than the person, yeah.
[36:44] So
[36:44] Noelle: it's all of our fo- it's always focusing on how we- But
[36:46] Martin: the point is, the cow- the horse isn't looking at the
[36:49] cow when his head's upside down.
[36:50] Noelle: Yeah, agreed.
[36:51] I completely
[36:52] Martin: agree.
[36:52] So they turn tail, turn away from the cow.
[36:55] First thing, you didn't headbutt the cow, so the cow's not as fast.
[36:59] Noelle: Yeah.
[36:59] Martin: So when you do get turned around, in, in a little slower environment,
[37:05] you turn around, the cow stops.
[37:06] So when you get turned around, the cow's sitting there waiting on you,
[37:09] like, "Oh, I thought you was leaving."
[37:10] Noelle: Mm.
[37:11] " Martin: You're coming back." Mm-hmm.
[37:12] You know?
[37:13] Whereas if you would've turned into him, now it's trotting, even at
[37:18] a low level, low energy setting.
[37:20] Noelle: Yeah.
[37:21] Martin: Now you gotta trot to catch up with that cow, and if she
[37:23] out-trots you back into the herd, now you're stirring the herd up again.
[37:27] Noelle: Yeah, exactly.
[37:28] Martin: So turn tail, and you pick the cow up, and I asked Tom Dorrance
[37:34] about this when I first started doing this, you know, decades ago, and…
[37:39] 'Cause everybody that I was around said, "Don't ever turn tail to a cow."
[37:43] Noelle: Yeah.
[37:43] Yeah.
[37:44] Martin: That's cowboy stuff.
[37:46] And so I asked Tom about it.
[37:46] He says, "Well, yeah." He went through his deal real quick You're beat.
[37:53] This cow is gonna outmaneuver you.
[37:55] You're on a green horse.
[37:56] Noelle: Mm.
[37:57] Martin: So you turn tail and you come around, and you turn tail and you come
[38:03] back, and you do that however many times.
[38:07] Now, whether it's seconds or days, pretty quick you're getting this
[38:13] horse to turn a little bit tighter.
[38:14] Yeah.
[38:14] Pretty quick you're getting this horse to stop and turn on the haunches.
[38:17] Mm-hmm.
[38:18] Pretty quick you're getting this horse to stop and do a nice little rollback.
[38:21] Noelle: Totally.
[38:23] Martin: And at the same time, you haven't trained the cattle to go
[38:27] faster and get back into the herd.
[38:30] Whether it's this one cow or the next 20 cows you work, the cattle stay softer,
[38:37] your horse becomes more agile, handier, and the day will come that this cow
[38:43] comes over here and she's in a trot, and you're trotting your horse over here.
[38:48] Cow gets ready to stop.
[38:50] You just step your horse over a little bit.
[38:51] He does a nice little rollback, trots out of it with the cow Because
[38:56] it never was a, a, I won't say traumatic, but it wasn't a high arousal
[39:01] situation for the horse or the cow.
[39:04] And you can, you ha- you can regulate it is what I'm saying.
[39:08] I mean, I like to go as fast and as much as the per- the next person, and I
[39:11] like to have a cow horse that makes them big moves as much as the next person.
[39:16] But this other turning them with their head upside down, spurring them
[39:20] in the neck, that gets in the way.
[39:22] Noelle: Hmm.
[39:22] Martin: That doesn't get you there quicker.
[39:24] That gets you… That takes longer.
[39:25] Noelle: And while I really wanna, like, with an, like, with a hypothetical
[39:29] highlighter here, I really wanna, like, highlight what you're talking about,
[39:33] because I think this is a really, another really big key component, is
[39:37] when we want thinking horses, we want horses that are focused on the task
[39:41] at hand, whether, what- whatever that be, whether that be maneuvers in a
[39:44] dressage arena, whether that be jumping obstacles, whether that be moving cows,
[39:48] and you have really taught me this, our job is not to take over and become the
[39:55] hyperfocus of the horse by yanking or pulling or being too dramatic in our
[40:03] aids or our asks, whatever it may be.
[40:06] Our job is to stay out of the horse's way so that they can focus on the task
[40:11] at hand, and I think that many of us forget that and lose sight of what the
[40:18] objective is, which is to create and to help nurture or mentor a horse to think
[40:27] for themselves and to understand what it is that we're trying to accomplish.
[40:32] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[40:33] They will think for themselves.
[40:35] They do think for themselves.
[40:37] So the question is, when do we get in their way, and when
[40:41] do we get out of our way?
[40:43] Now, a lot of people think they have to have constant contact,
[40:46] they gotta keep them collected.
[40:48] They're in the horse's way.
[40:50] Not saying everybody that does that is.
[40:52] I'm just saying that there's a lot of situations where you don't need
[40:57] to tell that horse to be collected.
[40:58] Noelle: Hmm.
[40:59] And,
[40:59] Martin: and let me go here for a little bit.
[41:02] Uh, some pe- thinks, aware of Gene Lewis, and some people are aware of Gene Lewis.
[41:06] He was a jumping horse trainer.
[41:08] He was my mother's first cousin, so I was around him some growing up And he
[41:15] was raised on the family ranch, my, my mother's family's ranch Did you say
[41:19] Noelle: three cricks over?
[41:20] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[41:20] Yeah Three cricks over,
[41:23] to the north Which is like 40 miles- Yeah … but it's three cricks over.
[41:26] Yeah.
[41:26] Yeah.
[41:27] So he grew up out in these hills running wild horses and wild
[41:31] cattle and blah, blah, blah.
[41:33] And, you know, I get in the jumping horse world, uh, those people that think they
[41:40] have to get that horse to rate the jump.
[41:42] Noelle: Yes.
[41:43] Martin: They gotta be telling them, you know, where to put their feet, basically,
[41:48] and it's… And they knock jumps down.
[41:50] It's like, wait a minute.
[41:52] Growing up, our horses jumped banks, they jumped cricks, they jumped
[41:57] fallen timber, they jumped rocks, they jumped all kinds of stuff.
[42:02] We don't rate them.
[42:03] They rate it.
[42:05] Noelle: Exactly.
[42:05] Martin: They learn, as foals growing up out here, how to rate
[42:12] coming down a hill, crossing water, b- you know, all this stuff that
[42:16] you're doing in the jumping ring.
[42:17] Now, they might not be jumping six-foot fences, but it doesn't
[42:23] matter if you're rating a six-foot fence or a two-foot bank.
[42:27] Noelle: Yeah.
[42:28] Martin: You still have to leave from a particular point-
[42:31] Noelle: And leave balanced
[42:33] Martin: and leave balanced.
[42:33] That's what I'm talking about.
[42:35] Noelle: Leave engaged.
[42:35] Martin: Yes.
[42:36] That's what I'm talking about.
[42:39] So I see, you know, 100 head of horses going across the field.
[42:43] There's a pretty good size irrigation ditch.
[42:45] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[42:46] Martin: They're gonna have to jump six feet across this.
[42:50] Noelle: Yeah.
[42:51] Martin: You watch them, they're all just loping along here.
[42:53] About three strides out, you'll see them kind of sh- shorten up,
[42:57] rate, hop over, and just keep going.
[42:59] Noelle: Yes.
[43:00] Martin: They're not collected.
[43:02] They might get collected there about two, couple, threes, strides out.
[43:06] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[43:07] Martin: Jump, and, uh, they're not collected.
[43:09] So Gene, he would s- Let me just tell a quick story.
[43:14] When I was staying with him, there'd be some colts to start.
[43:18] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[43:19] Martin: So I'd be in the back working with these colts, getting a saddle on
[43:23] them, getting on them, getting a little left and right on them and, you know,
[43:26] get them to move out a little bit.
[43:27] Basic, basic stuff.
[43:29] Of course, they're gentle, so it's not like starting ranch horses that you have
[43:32] a big process of getting them gentle.
[43:35] But at the same time, he would take them on the end of his
[43:39] riata from another horse-
[43:41] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[43:41] … Martin: and get them jumping these, just low jumps.
[43:44] Mm-hmm.
[43:45] But he could put them on a course, and he would just kind of be
[43:49] parallel of them, about 20 feet away.
[43:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[43:53] Martin: I mean, I got pictures of him doing this and-
[43:55] Noelle: Yeah
[43:56] Martin: everything.
[43:57] And after two or three days sessions of him getting those colts doing that,
[44:05] he'd just come around there and their ears would go like that, and they'd
[44:09] go down through there perfectly.
[44:11] Now, in three days, I'd be out there in the arena, in the, in
[44:17] the jumping pen, in the area.
[44:20] We're kind of wallering around, can't really get him in a
[44:23] straight line very good, but I can kind of get him trotting out.
[44:27] And maybe I'd be in my stock saddle, maybe I'd be in a flat saddle.
[44:33] But he'd say, "All right, now line him up there," and blah, blah, blah,
[44:36] "Bring him down through those jumps." I'd bring him around there, and as
[44:40] soon as he's seen that course His ears would go up, and it's just like
[44:46] I turn him loose going to the barn.
[44:49] I mean, it didn't matter what I'd done with my reins.
[44:52] He's been doing over these jumps without any bridle-
[44:55] Noelle: Yes
[44:55] … Martin: without any rider.
[44:57] Noelle: Yes.
[44:58] Martin: And he, it's, I mean, it's just like I'm a passenger.
[45:01] Down through these jumps.
[45:02] I turn him around.
[45:03] Basically, I just line him up like Gene done, and all Gene
[45:07] done once he got him lined up is flip his riata over the standard-
[45:11] Noelle: Mm-hmm
[45:12] Martin: and go on to the next one.
[45:13] Mm-hmm.
[45:13] Flip his riata over the standard and go to the next one.
[45:16] The horse liked it.
[45:18] Noelle: Yeah.
[45:18] Martin: You know, he's getting exercise.
[45:20] He's been in the stall.
[45:20] I mean, why wouldn't he like it?
[45:21] Noelle: Mm.
[45:22] Martin: He go out and jump and play out in the field.
[45:24] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[45:25] Martin: So that, that horse learning to do his job, but my point is, is
[45:28] these horses didn't need anybody in their way to get them to do this.
[45:32] It took very little, very minimal with that rope on him, and to kinda
[45:38] motivate him to get down through there, and it took very little from me
[45:43] once I was on their back because Gene already put the foundation on them
[45:46] as far as going to the, to the jump.
[45:50] So along with applying that to a cow, it's like we don't have
[45:56] to have our horses collected.
[45:59] Noelle: Mm.
[46:00] Martin: We, we don't.
[46:01] We're working cattle all day long.
[46:04] Now, when we're coming around here and I can see this cow's
[46:08] gonna stop and turn, that's when my horse needs to get collected.
[46:12] Noelle: Right.
[46:12] Martin: But for that horse to be collected all the way, all day, no.
[46:17] So when I see these people that say, "I wanna practice collection," practice
[46:22] collection, that's like practicing getting in the starting blocks and then
[46:26] carrying that for minutes or hours even.
[46:31] Now, I get it, there's gymnastics.
[46:33] You know, horses that are kept in stalls need to develop muscle.
[46:36] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[46:37] Martin: You know, but I don't come from that world.
[46:39] These horses are running up and down the hills.
[46:41] They're developing muscle.
[46:42] Not saying they're developing 100% of the muscle that these dressage
[46:46] horses have, and I don't know what it is, if it's 50 or 90 or 99 or, but
[46:53] that's never an issue with us- Yeah
[46:54] to develop muscle.
[46:55] Noelle: Mm.
[46:56] Martin: These horses are developed, you know, just from running loose.
[47:00] Noelle: This is actually a perfect opportunity for us to segue
[47:02] into managing horses naturally.
[47:06] So there's a lot of movement, a lot of conversation, a lot of
[47:10] discussion, and a lot of passionate discourse about how we can manage our
[47:15] horses more naturally in the world.
[47:17] So a lot of us, me included, come from an environment where our horses are
[47:21] stalled for large amounts of the day.
[47:24] Some of the horses that I even, that, that were imported from Europe
[47:27] had never even been turned out.
[47:29] They'd spent most of their life-
[47:30] Martin: That's that traditional horsemanship.
[47:32] Noelle: Right.
[47:34] For everyone who's only listening and not watching, you can see the
[47:37] sarcastic glint in Martin's eye.
[47:39] Martin: Well, I just get a kick out of people when they say traditional
[47:42] horsemanship like it's a bad thing.
[47:44] Noelle: Right.
[47:45] Martin: Yet they're keeping their horses in stalls.
[47:47] Noelle: Mm.
[47:48] Martin: They're feeding them three times a day.
[47:50] They don't have access to grazing, you know, all the time.
[47:53] Noelle: Yeah.
[47:53] Martin: And I get it, everybody can't do that.
[47:55] Noelle: Mm.
[47:55] Martin: You know, we got, we got coach horses that live in New York City.
[47:59] Noelle: Yeah.
[47:59] Martin: You can't turn them out.
[48:00] I get that.
[48:01] Noelle: Yeah.
[48:02] Martin: But I think where you're going with this, if I can take the mic-
[48:05] Noelle: Yeah
[48:06] … Martin: there's a lot of people that don't realize the benefits
[48:11] of not being in a stall.
[48:13] Noelle: Mm.
[48:13] Martin: Being turned out together.
[48:16] Now they go, "Yeah, but I give a million dollars for this
[48:18] racehorse. I can't turn him out."
[48:21] That horse doesn't know he's worth a million dollars.
[48:24] Now granted, you might not wanna take the chance.
[48:28] But, and not, not to get into this too much, but you know, I
[48:32] spent a lot of time at Calumet.
[48:33] I was there for 10 years starting their babies in- Mm-hmm … Lexington.
[48:37] They had big runs, big paddocks.
[48:40] They'd turn them horses out, and they wasn't across the fence from each other,
[48:43] but there was a, whatever it was, a 20-foot alleyway between them- Mm-hmm
[48:47] which is real standard for a lot of places.
[48:50] They could run up and down the fence, across from the fence.
[48:52] They still, you know, could get maybe whatever oxytocin or whatever
[48:56] they would get from each other.
[48:57] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[48:58] Martin: But they wasn't in stalls.
[49:00] Things didn't stay in stalls there.
[49:01] It was rare for horses to stay in stalls here.
[49:04] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[49:05] You have horses out here that are running on a lot of variable ground.
[49:11] They're barefoot.
[49:12] Some of them are barefoot, some of them are shod.
[49:14] You have-
[49:15] Martin: They're, they're only shod when I need them, when I'm riding them.
[49:20] To…
[49:20] Noelle: Okay.
[49:20] Explain that to everybody.
[49:22] Martin: Well, not to get into a, a horseshoeing session here.
[49:27] But basically I think that it's a lot healthier for the horse not to have shoes.
[49:32] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[49:33] Martin: Uh, and that's why I try not to have shoes, but I
[49:35] can't ride them without shoes.
[49:37] Noelle: Yeah, there's certain footing here you really need shoes for.
[49:39] Martin: It's rocky.
[49:40] Noelle: Yeah.
[49:41] Martin: Now, I've had people come out here, "Yeah, well, I got a
[49:43] Mustang and he doesn't need shoes."
[49:45] Yeah, keep up with me.
[49:47] Noelle: Mm.
[49:48] Martin: About three days, I promise you, that horse is gonna be begging for shoes.
[49:52] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[49:52] Martin: Now, if you only walk around and you only ride for a couple
[49:56] hours, yeah, he doesn't need shoes.
[49:58] Noelle: Mm.
[49:58] Martin: Maybe, if he's got good, hard feet.
[50:01] But if he's been in moist conditions, his feet are gonna be softer.
[50:06] If he's got white hooves, they're gonna be softer.
[50:09] Uh, there's just… I don't hesitate putting shoes on horses
[50:13] here if I'm going to be using them.
[50:16] Noelle: Mm.
[50:16] Martin: I don't like riding a sore-footed horse.
[50:18] Noelle: No.
[50:19] And you'll pull them off when you can.
[50:21] Martin: As soon as I'm done riding them, I'll pull them off.
[50:24] Even, even… So what happens here quite often is, you know, I do a ranch school,
[50:30] or I do a clinic here, or I do a series of clinics or whatever, so I get X number
[50:35] of horses shod up for clients coming from overseas or whatever, or just from out of
[50:40] town that aren't gonna haul their horses.
[50:43] So I get, say, 5 or 10 or however many horses shod.
[50:49] So now we're good to go.
[50:53] We got an inventory here we can pick from, and I don't need to Pussyfoot around
[51:00] riding surefooted horses Mm-hmm We can go somewhere, we can do things, and we can
[51:04] go to the next crick over and and back.
[51:08] But as soon as they're done, even if it's for two weeks-
[51:12] Noelle: You'll pull the shoes
[51:13] Martin: off
[51:13] before I have another group coming in, and they've had sh- shoes on for four
[51:17] weeks, and I'm gonna need them for, say, another four weeks, I'm not gonna leave
[51:21] the shoes on for eight weeks or 10 weeks.
[51:24] Noelle: Cool.
[51:25] Martin: So I'm gonna pull 'em off and try to take advantage, this is my point,
[51:29] I'm gonna try to take advantage of that window of leaving 'em barefoot.
[51:32] Noelle: Oh, cool.
[51:33] Martin: And then shoe 'em again two weeks later for the next whatever.
[51:37] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[51:39] Martin: I don't want… If I don't, and I don't have to.
[51:42] Mm-hmm.
[51:42] It- it, very rare that I would keep a horse shod for several months straight.
[51:51] Mm-hmm.
[51:51] Now, I used to when I was buckarooing, but in this world, no.
[51:55] You know, I'm on airplanes flying to Timbuktu or Florida or
[51:59] wherever, you know, and I'm gone.
[52:01] Mm-hmm.
[52:01] But I would say probably s- at least 75% of the time the horses are barefoot here.
[52:09] Noelle: Something else that I noticed that I really appreciate, and I don't
[52:13] even know if you do this consciously, you might not even do this consciously.
[52:16] So the horses are, on your ranch, they have to navigate all sorts of dy-
[52:21] different types of footing, all different types of obstacles, all different types
[52:25] of terrain, and I notice that my horses, since they've been here, they have to,
[52:31] you know, navigate, like, a crick to, they, there's a crick in their paddock.
[52:35] There's all sorts of different types of rocks.
[52:39] There's, you know, they, they, you're actually, my horses just being here are
[52:44] getting more savvy with the terrain.
[52:46] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[52:46] Noelle: Just by the sheer way in which you've laid it out, in which the
[52:49] environment that the horses are being in.
[52:51] So what would you say to those people who wanna have that kind of perfect,
[52:54] pristine paddock that doesn't lend any challenges or any obstacles
[53:00] to getting to things like water?
[53:04] Martin: Well, again, there's things, you wanna protect your investment.
[53:09] Noelle: Yes.
[53:09] Martin: I get that and I respect that.
[53:12] There's things you don't wanna do, like leaving wire, barbed
[53:16] wire laid, laying around.
[53:17] Yeah.
[53:17] I had the cows knock a fence down.
[53:19] Noelle: Yeah.
[53:20] Martin: And I didn't realize it, but there's one barbed wire strand
[53:23] about 18 inches high, and they broke the other strands, and they're just
[53:28] laying there on the ground loose.
[53:29] Noelle: Mm.
[53:30] Martin: Well, those three horses you seen-
[53:32] Noelle: Mm
[53:32] … Martin: they went back and forth through that fence several times.
[53:36] They never got scared.
[53:37] They picked their fence, feet up over that barbed wire.
[53:40] Not, I don't really like to do this, but the point is, them horses were
[53:44] fine walking through that barbed wire fence- Yeah … with wire laying
[53:48] on the ground and a wire hawk high.
[53:52] Noelle: Mm.
[53:53] Martin: They learned to pick their feet up when they go through the willows.
[53:57] They learned to pick their feet up when they go through the brush.
[54:00] And they don't need to be afraid of barbed wire if they can, and this is
[54:05] really going out on a limb for people.
[54:07] Noelle: Mm. And
[54:08] Martin: I'm not saying leave a bunch of barbed wire 18 inches high, but
[54:11] all of my horses are good about ropes around their legs, and that's why I
[54:16] want them good about ropes around their legs, is if they do get somewhere and
[54:20] there's wire, they're hopefully have the confidence not to be afraid of that wire.
[54:25] Noelle: It's made me realize that- The environments that we l- allow our
[54:32] horses to exist in or to thrive in, they can either make them smarter-
[54:37] Mm-hmm … or for lack of a better word, less exposed, less savvy.
[54:41] So what's been amazing is if you look at my horses that have traveled across
[54:45] this country 25,000 miles for 365 days, they've been in all s- we've
[54:50] been in all sorts of environments.
[54:52] We've been in places that were pristine and perfect and
[54:54] heavily, heavily manicured.
[54:56] We've also been in places where there's fence down and- Yeah … I can't,
[55:00] and I can't control that, right?
[55:02] Martin: Yeah.
[55:03] Well, basically, I don't mean to interrupt, but-
[55:05] Noelle: No, please
[55:07] … Martin: you got the helicopter moms-
[55:08] Noelle: Yes
[55:09] … Martin: with their horses.
[55:10] Noelle: Yes.
[55:11] Martin: And okay, they have a companion animal, and they, they
[55:17] have it for emotional reasons.
[55:19] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[55:20] Martin: I don't have horses for emotional reasons.
[55:22] Mm-hmm.
[55:22] Not saying that I don't enjoy them.
[55:24] I don't, you know- Mm … really respect them, and, you know, a lot
[55:27] of things that people say, "Oh, you hate your horse." No, I don't hate my
[55:30] horses, but they're a business for me.
[55:33] Noelle: Mm.
[55:34] Martin: And does that make me cold-hearted?
[55:36] No, I'm running a business.
[55:38] Noelle: Mm.
[55:38] Martin: And I don't think my horses are any worse off for it.
[55:42] Uh, my horses are running out 24/7, 365 days a year.
[55:46] I don't even have a stall on this ranch.
[55:48] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[55:49] Martin: They're not kept in a corral.
[55:50] You've seen, there's, there's a big lot that we catch them
[55:53] in that's nearly an acre.
[55:56] I mean, it's a, it's a big area.
[55:57] That's as confined as most of them get.
[55:59] Noelle: Yes.
[56:00] Martin: You know what I mean?
[56:01] They go in the round pen for their initial training at some point.
[56:06] They're not kept in a tight area.
[56:09] And I'll match my vet bills against anybody's.
[56:12] Noelle: Yes.
[56:13] Yeah.
[56:14] Martin: And, and you see the wire cuts on my horses?
[56:16] No.
[56:16] Yeah.
[56:16] It's minimal.
[56:18] You see any scars on my horses?
[56:19] No, it's minimal.
[56:20] Colics?
[56:21] No.
[56:22] Noelle: Mm.
[56:22] Martin: Colic is almost unheard of here.
[56:25] Well, I've never had one.
[56:26] I know it can happen, but- Not to get into that, but you
[56:32] know, I maintain their teeth.
[56:34] Nature maintains their feet-
[56:36] Noelle: Yeah
[56:36] … Martin: for the most part.
[56:38] This is a, and this is what I like about this ranch.
[56:41] Noelle: Yeah.
[56:41] Martin: It's about as low maintenance, high production as
[56:45] you can get for a horse outfit.
[56:47] Noelle: Well, and I, I wanna share that, like, my horses have had to adapt, and
[56:51] as we adapt their environment, as we change and we invite them to be smarter,
[56:55] I, I haven't had those horses… My horses haven't gotten caught up in wire.
[57:00] They haven't, they… Like, we haven't had those kind of incidents that maybe the
[57:04] old me would've been worried about when I was in an environment in which we try
[57:08] to control, bubble wrap our horses more.
[57:11] Martin: When, when you was more of a helicopter mom.
[57:12] Noelle: Yeah, for sure.
[57:13] Martin: Yeah.
[57:14] Noelle: And in that kind of environment where we're afraid of things to happen,
[57:17] so it's like that, that fear, we don't give the horses any liberty to use their
[57:21] own mind and their own self-preservation.
[57:23] And,
[57:23] Martin: and that's kind of a cultural thing.
[57:25] I mean, my family growing up, our horses run outside all the time.
[57:28] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[57:29] Martin: I mean, they was six years old before they come in to break them.
[57:31] Right.
[57:31] They were out all that time.
[57:33] Noelle: Yeah.
[57:34] Martin: And we didn't have a place to put them.
[57:36] There was very few fences, v- very few corrals.
[57:40] So it was, it was just a cultural thing.
[57:43] Now, Europe and cities and places like that, they don't have that option.
[57:47] They got stalls.
[57:48] I get that.
[57:49] Noelle: Yeah.
[57:49] Martin: But it, it… And I guess that's the thing is, is I think today
[57:53] if we can learn from other cultures.
[57:55] Noelle: Mm.
[57:56] Martin: You know, not saying that they need to go buy a ranch like this, but if
[58:00] they can just take a little bit of what these horses have here and try to put it
[58:07] in their place Would they be better off?
[58:10] Noelle: Mm.
[58:11] Martin: And that's what you're saying you've learned.
[58:12] Noelle: Yes.
[58:13] Martin: Right?
[58:13] Noelle: Yes.
[58:14] Well, I've learned that not, more is not always more.
[58:18] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[58:19] Noelle: That's a really important one.
[58:20] Martin: They're, they're a lot more durable than what people think.
[58:23] Noelle: I've also learned, and especially from you, to be comfortable
[58:28] in that uncomfortable phase where the horse is figuring it out.
[58:31] Mm-hmm.
[58:31] And don't, don't rob them of the learning opportunity- Mm-hmm … that
[58:35] they have to figure something out.
[58:37] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[58:37] Noelle: And you've made me really abundantly aware of that.
[58:40] Mm-hmm.
[58:40] Like, and it might take some horses, you know, sometimes it takes G
[58:43] a little bit longer than Lady.
[58:44] Lady will connect the dots faster.
[58:47] He sometimes takes a little s- longer, and I sometimes get impatient, and I
[58:51] wanna, I wanna make that, you know, I want him to connect the dots quicker.
[58:55] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[58:55] Noelle: But I'm robbing him of that learning.
[58:58] Martin: Well, there's that five-year-old, 10-year-old, that, that mature horse that
[59:03] was raised in a protected environment, and you bring him out here, it's
[59:09] like the city boy coming to the farm.
[59:11] Noelle: Right.
[59:12] Martin: They're never gonna adapt.
[59:14] Not saying they won't learn, you know, to survive better-
[59:17] Noelle: Mm
[59:18] Martin: but they'll always stick out.
[59:20] Just like if I went to New York City, I'm gonna stick out
[59:23] like a crack-a-lack on Dundee.
[59:25] I mean, it, it, you know, you don't change completely, but again, what I'm
[59:30] saying is there's a lot of opportunity that horses are missing out on because
[59:37] the owners aren't willing to take, aren't willing to get out of their comfort zone.
[59:40] Yeah.
[59:41] The person's comfort zone.
[59:43] Noelle: So to, to wrap up the podcast, I wanna, I want you to impart some, I wanted
[59:47] you to leave everyone with some advice.
[59:50] 'Cause there are a lot of people who listen to this podcast who are urban
[59:52] riders, and they have no choice.
[59:54] They're not, like- Right … you know, they're not sitting there.
[59:56] Mm-hmm.
[59:56] They're going, "Yeah, Martin, Noëlle, I would love to buy 1,000 acre farm
[59:59] somewhere- Mm-hmm … or a 1,000 acre ranch somewhere- Yeah … but I don't have
[1:00:01] that opportunity." What are some things that they can do to bring a more natural,
[1:00:09] naturally influence, or a naturally derived horsemanship to their practice?
[1:00:16] Martin: Well,
[1:00:18] a lot of people are onto it.
[1:00:20] They need to get out of the stall and get exercise.
[1:00:22] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:00:22] Martin: Okay?
[1:00:23] But one example would be, I see a lot of the western riders, cutters and whatnot,
[1:00:28] I've been around a lot, they get out and lope circles on these two-year-olds.
[1:00:33] Not to get into the two-year-old deal, but any, any age horse.
[1:00:36] But they're loping little tiny circles.
[1:00:40] Lope down to the mailbox and back.
[1:00:43] Hopefully it's a couple miles, is my point there.
[1:00:46] Lope in a straight line.
[1:00:49] And the English do the same thing, except they lunge them.
[1:00:52] Noelle: Yes.
[1:00:53] Martin: And there's a lot of negative stuff comes from lunging.
[1:00:56] Uh, and again, like Callie meant, they had big paddocks,
[1:01:00] and they would turn them out.
[1:01:01] They could run and buck and play.
[1:01:02] My grandad said, when I was little, he said, "You need to have your mares
[1:01:07] and foals," and this is when, later in life, and he had, he still had,
[1:01:11] like, over 100 head of horses, and he run them on irrigated pasture.
[1:01:15] But he said, "It's important that them foals can run as far as
[1:01:19] they wanna run in a straight line without being, having to turn."
[1:01:24] Noelle: Mm.
[1:01:25] Martin: And his point was, in they're in a, if they're in a corral, and
[1:01:27] they race up into a corner and have to turn, have to turn, that's not
[1:01:32] good on their hocks, and that's not, that's not good to raise your foals in.
[1:01:37] Well, you know, not to get into the two-year-old thing, but a lot of
[1:01:39] them are doing that with their young horses instead of loping them, you
[1:01:44] know, for two miles down the road.
[1:01:45] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:01:46] Martin: Not on the road, but on the edge of the road, you know- Yeah … horses.
[1:01:50] But there's just opportunity like that.
[1:01:53] But, you know, how many riders aren't comfortable getting out of the arena?
[1:01:57] Noelle: Right.
[1:01:58] Martin: You know?
[1:01:58] And- Get out of the
[1:01:58] Noelle: arena
[1:01:58] … Martin: and maybe the road's not a safe place.
[1:02:00] Maybe there's too many trucks or whatever.
[1:02:02] Noelle: Mm-hmm.
[1:02:02] Martin: But the point is, is, is find a trail that you could go out on, you
[1:02:07] know, and you don't have to lope them.
[1:02:08] Trot them.
[1:02:09] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:02:10] Martin: I, I think trotting's healthier for them anyway.
[1:02:12] Noelle: You
[1:02:12] Martin: know what- Biomechanically
[1:02:13] … Noelle: you know what, and, and this is, like, such a cool place to end
[1:02:16] this, is Lyndy Birch sat right where you are, and talks about how she
[1:02:21] will ride out nine, 10 times out of 10 before she rides in the arena,
[1:02:26] that she gets more out of riding out.
[1:02:29] And it was, it's such a beautiful episode, because she talks about
[1:02:33] this, you know, we gotta be careful of our obsession with the arena, right?
[1:02:38] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[1:02:38] Noelle: And I hear so many trail riders, people who ride trails, who that's their
[1:02:41] main focus when they ride their horses, "Oh, I'm just a trail rider." Right
[1:02:48] Martin: Well, you could do, and I do, most of my training is not in the arena,
[1:02:53] even when I had an arena, which I don't have one now because I just kinda got to
[1:02:57] the point, what do I need an arena for?
[1:02:59] Unless I'm training rope horses or cow horses or something.
[1:03:03] You've been to my training area.
[1:03:04] Noelle: I love your training area.
[1:03:06] Martin: It's about three-quarters of a mile to it.
[1:03:09] Noelle: Yep.
[1:03:10] Martin: And then it's a little dry lake bed, nice, flat, good footing.
[1:03:13] Noelle: Beautiful footing.
[1:03:15] Like, I know people who would spend, would have spent thousands
[1:03:18] of dollars for the footing that you have along that dried creek bed.
[1:03:21] Martin: Mm-hmm.
[1:03:22] Noelle: And then, which is like a track, and
[1:03:24] Martin: that- They, they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars hauling
[1:03:26] that footing- … into their arena.
[1:03:27] And, and that's my point, you know, you can, you can condition the horse, you
[1:03:30] can practice lead changes, you can, you know, get on my little dry lake bed and,
[1:03:34] and lope circles or do whatever you want.
[1:03:36] Noelle: Yep.
[1:03:37] Martin: It- the point is, is it's good footing, good training area, and when
[1:03:42] you want to say to the horse, "You don't need to be mentally engaged with me,"
[1:03:47] he could be looking around and just going, "I love nature." You ride him out
[1:03:52] on the way out, on the way home, it's not like riding him in the arena where
[1:03:56] they're going, "What's that over there?
[1:03:57] What's that over there?
[1:03:58] What'd you say?
[1:03:58] What'd you say?" No, they're, they can just be a horse.
[1:04:02] That's the thing I like about riding out, and I think that's what
[1:04:04] Lyndi, not to speak for Lyndi, but-
[1:04:06] Noelle: That's exactly-
[1:04:07] Martin: There's huge benefits to getting out of the arena, for the horse.
[1:04:12] Now, if you're not comfortable out there and you're, eh, you gotta be
[1:04:16] comfortable with it too, though.
[1:04:17] Noelle: Yeah.
[1:04:18] Martin, as always, I learn so much from you, and I'm so grateful that you
[1:04:23] take the time to impart it all for us.
[1:04:25] Thank you.
[1:04:27] Martin: Okay, glad to be here.
[1:04:29] Thank you.
[1:04:30] Hope we helped some people
[1:04:33] Noelle: Nice, buddy.
[1:04:36] If the access and insight of this podcast makes you want to go deeper and actually
[1:04:42] apply these ideas with your own horses, NF Plus is where I've brought together some
[1:04:47] of the best riders, trainers, horsemen, horsewomen, sports psychologists,
[1:04:53] and practitioners in the horse world.
[1:04:57] Inside the NF Plus app, you'll find more than 70 masterclass courses on the
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[1:05:19] Our instructors include Tick Maynard, Will Coleman, Carl Cook, Peter Wyld, Dr.
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[1:05:32] I created NF Plus as a safe, thoughtful place to learn at your
[1:05:37] own pace with teachers and riders who have a wealth of knowledge.
[1:05:44] You can explore more at noellefloydplus.com or find the link
[1:05:49] to download the app in the show notes

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