# The Cheeky Challenger feat. Shivani Singh Deo (Country Manager - India, Virgin Atlantic)

An episode of [The Indian #AvGeek](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1759764345), 14 Dec 2025, 54 min.

Audio: https://anchor.fm/s/f945ecd8/podcast/play/112579569/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-11-13%2F407ec259-630e-ece7-493d-6ccd814ef56a.mp3

Episode 56 Virgin Atlantic isn’t just flying to India; they are painting the skies red with a staggering 350% growth since 2019. In this episode, Vishal sits down with Shivani Singh Deo, Country Manager – India for Virgin Atlantic, to decode how the "cheeky challenger" of aviation is aggressively expanding its footprint in one of the world's largest aviation markets. Transitioning from a marketing role to leading country operations, Shivani opens up about the strategy behind Virgin’s massive capacity boost—offering one million seats annually on India routes. We deep dive into the mechanics of their four-way partnership with IndiGo, Delta, and Air France-KLM, and how this alliance is reshaping the India-UK-US corridor. We also touch on the recent joint interview of AF-KLM & Lufthansa CEOs on their growing worries about Gulf-based airlines, as well as Turkish Airlines. Key discussion points: • The 350% Surge: How Virgin Atlantic achieved massive growth and the strategy behind the new Bengaluru and double-daily Mumbai services. • Strategic Alliances: Analysing the impact of the IndiGo and SkyTeam partners on Virgin’s competitive edge. • Fleet & Product: Why the "youngest, cleanest fleet" matters, and the split between O&D vs. connecting traffic (60:40) to the US. • Business of Cargo: Discussing the untold story of a 356% increase in cargo capacity. • The Sky High Club: Inside the unique, India-only rewards program for travel agents. • Women in Aviation: Shivani’s advice for aspiring female leaders in a male-dominated industry. Tune in for a masterclass on balancing profitability with personality in the skies. The Indian AvGeek streams on all major podcast apps. Vishal Mehra - @vishal1mehra

## Transcript

[0:05] Hello, hello my fellow geeks. Welcome to episode number 56 of
[0:11] The Indian NAV Geek. My name is Vishal Mehra.
[0:15] If you've heard prior episodes of this podcast till the end,
[0:19] you know, usually I'd ask you to fasten your seatbelts and put
[0:23] your tray tables in the upright position.
[0:26] But today, scratch that. Loosen your tie, head to the
[0:31] onboard bar and order a cocktail.
[0:35] Especially after what Indian domestic aviation has been
[0:38] through over the last 10 days or so, you would definitely need
[0:43] it. But today, we aren't just
[0:46] flying, we are flying in the face of ordinary.
[0:50] We are painting the Indian skies distinctively red.
[0:54] My guest today represents an airline that looked at the
[0:58] aviation industry and said boring, let's make it a party.
[1:03] She's leading the charge for the airline that gave us red leather
[1:06] seats, salt and pepper shakers shaped like little airplanes
[1:10] that they know you steal, and a serious dose of British
[1:15] cheekiness. This lady is in the cockpit of
[1:19] this operation, the one ensuring that even at 35,000 feet, the
[1:24] vibe is strictly upper class. Please welcome the country
[1:29] manager for Virgin Atlantic in India, Shivani Singh Dhio.
[1:33] Welcome to the Indian app geek Shivani.
[1:36] Hi, Vishal, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on the app
[1:40] Geek and thank you for the invitation.
[1:42] I'm really looking forward to speaking with you.
[1:45] So how did you get into the industry, Shivani?
[1:48] It's very interesting. Years of career were in events,
[1:52] retail and lifestyle. And then in 2015 Virgin Atlantic
[1:56] came along and it felt like such a natural extension to what I
[2:00] was doing. You know, I was marketing
[2:02] lifestyle and luxury products back then.
[2:05] So I feel whether you're selling a luxury product or a holiday,
[2:09] you really are in the business of creating experiences for your
[2:12] customers. And I had always looked up to
[2:16] Sir Richard Branson for his leadership skills, his passion,
[2:20] his innovation, his creativity. And when this opportunity came
[2:24] along, there were just no second thoughts.
[2:26] And here I am, 10 years later. Fantastic.
[2:31] Let's talk about that. Can you tell us about your
[2:33] journey from Marketing and Communications Manager to
[2:36] Country Manager at Virgin Atlantic and how this transition
[2:40] has shaped your leadership approach?
[2:43] So my journey from marketing and communications to country
[2:47] manager has been a journey of growth and rediscovery.
[2:51] If I could say I, when I was in marketing, I would focus on
[2:55] storytelling, how to express Virgin Atlantic's personality
[2:59] and brand. And when I moved into this role
[3:02] as country manager, I had to build that story, you know,
[3:05] through campaigns to commerce. That's, that's the shift I saw,
[3:10] you know, from messaging to market share.
[3:12] But I would say, you know, and again, that story was all about
[3:16] how you create your story through partnerships,
[3:21] performance, strategy. And of course, it really widened
[3:24] my perspective. But what didn't change is the
[3:28] core value that drives each one of us at Virgin, which is the
[3:34] mix of be amazing, you know, be amazing at everything you do
[3:39] thinking red that's, you know, think uniquely Virgin and make
[3:43] friends along the way, whether it's, you know, making friends
[3:46] with your team and colleagues or working with external partners.
[3:50] So that's been, you know, whether through a brand campaign
[3:54] or a business plan, my role is to keep that spirit alive in
[3:58] everything we do in India. And that spirit seems to be
[4:02] working well. You've had three 50% growth in
[4:06] the Indian market since 2019. Third largest market for you?
[4:11] Right, that's true. So for India's become a success
[4:14] story for Virgin Atlantic. This year we marked our 25 years
[4:18] of flying to India. Our first flight was in July
[4:22] 2000. And as you mentioned, it's our
[4:25] third largest market, offering up to 1,000,000 seats both ways
[4:30] between India and the UK. And which is that 350% seat
[4:35] capacity growth versus 2019. We operate 5 daily services to
[4:41] from Delhi to from Mumbai and a daily service from Bengaluru.
[4:45] And what drove that growth, you know, number one, I would say,
[4:50] is our network. We, as I mentioned, have 3
[4:52] gateways into India, Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore with five
[4:56] flights. Secondly is our partnerships.
[4:59] We have a joint venture partner partnership with Delta and
[5:04] codeshare partnership with Indigo and that's created this
[5:07] seamless bridge between India and the UKUS and Canada.
[5:13] And 3rd but not the least is our product, how we've customized
[5:18] our product for the Indian market.
[5:21] So what that means is say every flight would have 3 to 4 Indian
[5:26] crew members on board that speak Hindi or the regional languages.
[5:30] We also offer a blend of British and Indian food on board and
[5:34] even the in flight entertainment, you know, would
[5:37] have Bollywood movies or regional language movies and TV
[5:41] series. So it's that whole amalgamation
[5:45] of you know, all the three things.
[5:46] As I mentioned, it's the network not just from India but into
[5:51] Heathrow and connecting onwards to UKUS.
[5:55] It's the product and the partnerships we've really
[5:58] invested in. I want to talk a bit about the
[6:00] partnership. In fact, as a side note, my
[6:05] first ever international flight was on Virgin back in 2001.
[6:12] I flew with my mom to London, of course, and I remember having
[6:17] those little screens in the front that time as well.
[6:19] I was so, you know, just so surprised and and and so happy
[6:24] during the entire journey. So virgin and and I have some
[6:27] memories. I have to say that Virgin was
[6:31] the first airline to bring seat back entertainment.
[6:36] So we really take pride in, you know, getting that.
[6:40] And of course this was in the 90s, but since you mentioned, I
[6:43] just thought of sharing that. Yeah, On partnerships, Shivani,
[6:50] you recently expanded your partnership with Indigo along
[6:54] with Delta and Air France KLM making a powerful alliance.
[6:58] If I may say that lots of things have happened during the IITA
[7:04] India week back in June. How does this four way
[7:08] partnership change Virgin Atlantic's competitive position
[7:12] in India? Sure.
[7:14] So I'll first start off with where we started.
[7:18] So three years back we entered into a code share agreement with
[7:22] Indigo and this partnership since then has really
[7:26] strengthened our network in India, you know, giving our
[7:29] customers that choice to fly from 36 points in India all
[7:34] through one simple seamless journey.
[7:37] Now what's next is even a deeper collaboration, and I would say
[7:42] this partnership with Indigo, Air France KLM, all, all
[7:48] airlines coming together is genuinely transformational.
[7:52] It's about creating a new global connectivity built all around
[7:57] the customer. So by linking Indigo's domestic
[8:01] network with Virgin Atlantic's UK base, Delta's North American
[8:06] strength, and Air France KLM's European reach, you know, it's
[8:12] giving that choice to the customer so they can enjoy their
[8:16] journeys much more, smoother, faster, from dozens of cities
[8:21] across India to Europe and North America.
[8:24] Strategically, it gives us that network scale, you know,
[8:29] compared to other carriers. And distinctively, I would say
[8:34] it's much more efficient, giving that flexibility and that
[8:38] consistent premium service end to end.
[8:41] You know, whether you're flying from India to UK, Europe or US,
[8:45] you get that seamless journey and that premium experience
[8:50] across. So in short, I would say it's
[8:53] not just about flying more routes or, you know, incremental
[8:57] capacity. It's about how we are
[9:00] reimagining seamless travel between India and the world, or,
[9:07] you know, building that global bridge, I would say.
[9:10] And you are now offering a million seats annually on Indian
[9:13] routes. Makes me ask you, how are you
[9:17] balancing that capacity growth with profitability?
[9:20] And the market has always been competitive.
[9:23] It gets more competitive by the day.
[9:28] How's that looking like for you So.
[9:30] Yes, we offer one million seats annually across India routes,
[9:35] which just shows how confident we are in the market and the
[9:39] long term potential this market has.
[9:43] Now balancing that growth with profitability comes down to
[9:47] smart segmentation and India is wonderfully complex.
[9:52] You know, our audience segments range from premium leisure to
[9:56] corporate to VFR visiting friends and relatives, students.
[10:02] So what we do is we use that data to constantly fine tune and
[10:09] balance and finding that right balance between what aircraft to
[10:13] deploy on which route bases. Obviously, these audience
[10:16] segments matching that with demand, the schedules and the
[10:21] connectivity and also the times have changed.
[10:24] Now we see travellers are now willing to pay extra for that
[10:29] premium service consistency and a brand that genuinely cares.
[10:34] And that's what sets Virgin apart.
[10:37] You know that experience every step of the way.
[10:39] You know, from the time you check in, like from your airport
[10:43] experience to the time you board and you reach your destination,
[10:48] that's how you're creating that experience every step of the
[10:52] way. And I would say that's our key
[10:54] differentiator. You know, it's not just adding
[10:56] more routes, but creating meaningful experiences for our
[11:00] customers. On the fleet, Shivani, you've
[11:04] invested significantly in fleet transformation.
[11:07] How does that position you competitively in the
[11:09] marketplace, Indian and globally?
[11:13] Do you believe you have the right aircraft for your mission
[11:16] profiles? Yeah.
[11:17] So we're, you know, always evaluating opportunities across
[11:21] India and every time we are assessing a route as you
[11:26] mentioned, you know, a fleet, the fleet or which aircraft to
[11:30] deploy is an important factor which is also matched with again
[11:36] what audience segments we are flying.
[11:38] Is it a primarily a business route or is it a premium leisure
[11:42] route, you know, if you if you say New York is heavy on
[11:46] business whereas A Maldives or recently launched Phuket is
[11:51] leisure route. So all those factors matched
[11:54] with demand, what quality of revenue we would drive and
[12:00] what's the opportunity when we look at fleet not just from
[12:04] passenger volumes, but also cargo.
[12:07] So all and the airport infrastructure sustainability,
[12:11] all of these factors come into play when we're looking at our
[12:16] fleet. And for India, we've, we have
[12:19] the A3 50s and the 7-8 sevens deployed across the three routes
[12:25] and they are the most efficient and they are optimised in such a
[12:29] way that they cater to our passenger Valiums and and also
[12:34] freight loads. So they're, they're the best
[12:38] aircrafts for the India routes I would say.
[12:41] And also because we connect onwards to Heathrow, we look at
[12:46] you know, not just point to point, but then how we are
[12:49] connecting our passengers. So if it's a night departure,
[12:55] you know, heavy on a certain cabin, we will look into what
[12:59] aircraft to fly, say on a night flight from Mumbai to London and
[13:03] then it connects on to us. On cabins, would you be able to
[13:09] share what kind of split you see across VFR leisure business back
[13:14] in front of the cabin? Honestly, it would, it would
[13:18] vary, but we see a lot of VFR in economy.
[13:23] Business travellers are between premium and upper class.
[13:27] So what we have is an upper class which is a fully flat bed.
[13:31] That's how we typically see. But having said that, of course
[13:35] there are corporates also in economies.
[13:39] It's a fair mix I would say of every segment in every cabin.
[13:43] It's not very if, if I were to say very clearly divided.
[13:51] So we see all mix of audience segments travelling all cabins
[13:56] but mostly VFR is heavy on economy cabin.
[14:01] Right. Would you would you say Virgin
[14:04] is a primarily a leisure focused airline?
[14:08] No, that's we, we have routes that are on premium leisure, but
[14:14] also in we're focusing on business travel.
[14:17] So it's a different strategy. One would have bases the routes
[14:21] that we fly to and and because we've got all three cabins and
[14:27] we have different audience segments.
[14:29] So we focus on business as well as premium leisure and this is
[14:34] across the network, I would say across all routes.
[14:39] I said that because you announced a few weeks back your
[14:42] plans for Phuket twice a week. Quite a unique route and clearly
[14:47] leisure focused, isn't it? So that's what, coming back to
[14:51] what I was just saying, you know, then their routes like
[14:53] Seattle, Atlanta, Boston, NY, and then their routes such as
[14:59] Phuket, Malay, you know, so it's a fair mix of where customers
[15:04] would want to fly to. You want to go on a holiday,
[15:06] you've got the leisure routes. You have business travel.
[15:09] We fly to all the key business global destinations in the
[15:14] world. Yeah.
[15:15] Right, let's come back to the Indian market.
[15:19] You launched a daily service to Bangalore last year and then
[15:23] began a second daily service to Mumbai last year also.
[15:27] What data and market insights drove these specific route
[15:31] decisions? Shivani.
[15:34] I'll start off with Delhi. Delhi's been operating for 25
[15:37] years. That's a long standing route.
[15:40] We've had Mumbai since 2019. We added a double daily flight
[15:45] last year. So it's been one year of double
[15:48] daily services from Mumbai. And Bangalore, as you mentioned,
[15:53] was started in April 2024. So we're always looking at
[15:58] opportunities from the inner market, whether it's for
[16:01] business or premium leisure. And you know it's always focused
[16:06] on maximizing our current routes.
[16:11] As you mentioned, Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore are the key routes
[16:17] from India. If one were to look at where the
[16:20] maximum demand is from. And that's what just the natural
[16:25] extension of I would say when one, when we were looking to
[16:30] expand our services in India and we're currently focusing on
[16:36] these routes and leveraging our partnership with Indigo and
[16:42] Delta of course. So the decision on launching
[16:46] Bangalore or going double daily on Bombay, was it based on
[16:50] giving Delta more feed from India to it's hubs via Heathrow
[16:54] or more point to point it's? A mix of everything.
[16:58] So when we assess a new route or when we are assessing
[17:02] opportunities of adding more flights from an existing route,
[17:06] it's through a very disciplined lens, if I can say.
[17:10] So what is #1 the quality of revenue we would drive from that
[17:14] market? What is the opportunity not just
[17:17] for passenger but also cargo? What is the, you know, does it
[17:24] add that network advantage and not just, you know, point to
[17:30] point? So this is, these are all the
[17:32] factors that one keeps in mind when we're looking at routes.
[17:38] So is it business heavy, if it's business heavy is driving high
[17:42] quality revenue, adding to our network and of course the cargo
[17:46] opportunity which is big from India.
[17:50] So yes, it's a mix of all these factors I would say, not just
[17:55] one. Yeah, in fact, that was going to
[17:58] be my next question. Cities like Hyderabad, Amritsar,
[18:01] Goa and Ahmedabad are being considered for expansion by
[18:06] Virgin Atlantic. That's what I've read.
[18:08] Is that true? There, there are quite a few
[18:11] destinations that are, you know, our network planning and
[18:14] strategy teams are evaluating. But at the moment we are
[18:18] focusing on maximizing value from my existing services, the
[18:23] three, the three routes that we have in India.
[18:28] But what lies ahead, let's see, the future is great from India.
[18:33] At the moment, I really can't pinpoint to what, what would be
[18:37] the next. But yes, in the next 5 year
[18:39] plan, these are all the destinations that you know we
[18:44] are evaluating. All right, Shivani, what is the
[18:48] role of marketing and advertising in Virgin Atlantic?
[18:53] Sounds a bit silly of me considering your background and
[18:56] how you've risen through the ranks to lead Virgin in India.
[19:01] But do you think of it more as a tactic or as building up the
[19:05] brand as well? What's your ratio usually in
[19:10] terms of tactics and brand building?
[19:13] So it's always a balancing act. You know, you have to fuel your
[19:18] short term goals while nurturing your long term gain gain.
[19:23] So for us it's always a sweet spot, if I can say usually a
[19:27] 6040. So 60% on tactical campaigns
[19:31] that would drive conversions and then 40% in our long term brand
[19:37] building about storytelling and reinforcing our brand values,
[19:42] which of you know, being yourself, your individuality,
[19:45] your inclusivity and diversity. But having said that, it, it can
[19:50] vary depending on what the focus is for that year, what campaigns
[19:54] we are driving. And interestingly, what we've
[19:58] found is that brand LED work actually enhances tactical
[20:03] performance. So when people feel emotionally
[20:05] connected to your brand, they're more responsive to promotions.
[20:10] You know, it's not always about pricing, so they have to have
[20:14] that connect with the brand to really, you know, wanting to pay
[20:17] that price to fly with you. So it's a perfect proof of, you
[20:21] know, how brand love or that connection with your brand can
[20:25] drive business results. So it's a fair balance I would
[20:30] say between the two. Sometime back I saw your latest
[20:34] global campaign be a rainbow in the clouds that hasn't made its
[20:39] Indian debut yet, right? It hasn't, but I, I do want to
[20:45] say is. So firstly, it's, you know, be a
[20:48] rainbow in the sky is a lovely reflection of what Virgin
[20:52] Atlantic truly stands for. As I just said, you know, our
[20:56] brand values are about being yourself, the individuality and
[21:00] the sense of freedom you feel when you board a Virgin Atlantic
[21:05] flight. So for us in India, it's not
[21:07] always about translating that message.
[21:10] What it means is what does it mean for customers in terms of
[21:14] product and service on board? You know how a customer feels
[21:18] when they enter a Virgin flight. So for say premium leisure
[21:23] travellers, it's about self-expression and the sense of
[21:27] freedom when you're flying Virgin.
[21:29] For VFR travellers, we are focusing on warmth and that
[21:33] care, you know, things like extra baggage allowance,
[21:37] tailored menus on board and flexible fares which make their
[21:42] travel much more effortless and easy.
[21:44] So to come back to your question, yes, not in terms of
[21:49] say like airing the ads, but we've translated that in terms
[21:53] of our service on board. All right.
[21:58] And just a bit more on that, Shivani.
[22:00] So every global campaign by Virgin Atlantic is assessed
[22:04] independently by local markets, whether it will appear in the
[22:08] market or not or is there any flat out mandate by the global
[22:14] team? Number one is it has to of
[22:17] course the campaign resonates with the brand and that brand is
[22:21] across all our global markets. It would depend on sometimes
[22:27] it's launched globally and we are using that maybe not because
[22:31] you're from the advertising world, you would understand not
[22:34] saying ATL, so not through TV ads or billboards, but we would
[22:39] be using that say in events in other forms.
[22:43] So typically be a rainbow in the clouds is not aired in terms of
[22:49] the ATL aspect, but we're using it in events and engagement with
[22:57] the travel agents and customers. So it's not that there's a
[23:01] mandate as such and markets are picked, it's what platform we're
[23:09] using in which market. I think you have a very unique
[23:14] marketing campaign for travel agents as well, but I will touch
[23:18] upon that bit later in the show. I want to talk about the overall
[23:21] brand for now. Virgin Atlantic is known for its
[23:25] distinct premium positioning. How do you clearly differentiate
[23:29] this product and brand experience against traditional
[23:34] full service carrier like Air India or the increasingly
[23:39] powerful Middle Eastern carriers which are especially very
[23:44] popular and very profitable in the India UK corridor?
[23:50] Firstly, I, I really want to say I actually think competition is
[23:54] healthy. As long as everyone is getting
[23:57] their fair share of the pie. There's space and room for
[24:01] everyone to grow. And honestly, it keeps us all
[24:04] focused on doing better for our customers and for ourselves.
[24:10] And again, back to your question of, you know, there are other
[24:15] airlines and how do we how do we differentiate is I think I've
[24:19] spoken about how we are adding value and that offering that
[24:25] premium service every step of the way for our customers.
[24:29] That's our key differentiator. When you board a Virgin Atlantic
[24:32] flight, when a crew member remembers your name, the smiles
[24:36] on board, that's the human connection.
[24:39] I feel that really differentiates us, how we've
[24:44] tailored our product. You know, it's every step of the
[24:47] way when, when you you've flown with Virgin.
[24:50] So I can give you examples, it feels different, you know, and
[24:56] you will feel, you know that warm and friendly crew on board,
[25:00] how they make you feel so welcomed on board.
[25:03] So I really feel our key differentiator is the premium
[25:06] service we offer and how it's tailor made for our market.
[25:11] And another thing I would want to mention here is the
[25:16] connections and how you know whether you want to say fly from
[25:20] Kanpur to Boston. It's made seamless through our
[25:25] partnerships because that's what we really focused on is of
[25:29] course you've got the premium experience on board, but also
[25:32] your journey is made seamless giving, you know, customers that
[25:36] choice of connections from India to UK and onwards to US and
[25:42] Canada. Recently Ben Smith, the CEO of
[25:46] Air France KLM and Karsten Schpor, the CEO for Lufthansa
[25:53] gave a rare joint interview, actually couple of interviews to
[25:56] some European publications basically complaining about Gulf
[26:02] based airlines as well as Turkish Airlines and the unfair
[26:06] support these airlines enjoy. They mentioned how the
[26:10] unfettered and Open Access to EU skies is incorrect and in his
[26:17] remarks, Ben Smith basically compared 2 decades of airline
[26:22] growth. He said Gulf and Turkish
[26:25] Airlines have expanded by 1000% and 756% respectively, while at
[26:34] the same time Air France and Lufthansa crew by just 14 and
[26:40] 16% each respectively, underscoring the extraordinary
[26:47] growth fuelled by regulatory advantages and fiscal support
[26:52] that Gulf carriers enjoy. I'm not going to ask you to
[26:56] comment on what they said. You are not here representing
[26:59] them obviously, but because Air France, KLM at least is your
[27:04] close partner. What is Virgin Atlantic's take
[27:07] on all of this? So Vishal, I can say from India
[27:11] is we focus on our direct routes which is Delhi, Mumbai,
[27:17] Bangalore to Heathrow, right. There are numerous one stop
[27:22] carriers and the list will go on and on.
[27:25] We always come back to focusing on what you know, on our point
[27:31] to point and onward connections. And of course there will be and
[27:36] I cannot really comment on what you know it would mean for
[27:40] another region and partners. But I can say for us, we are
[27:46] focusing on our direct routes and I think that's what is our
[27:53] focus. And I as I mentioned there are
[27:55] we also have direct competition on our routes.
[27:59] There are other carriers flying from in India directly to
[28:03] Heathrow. But I think all of us are
[28:05] focusing on our game. And at the end customer is, you
[28:11] know, who they, they actually in the end, they, they choose.
[28:15] And that's what I can say really, you know, for us it's
[28:18] just focusing on what matters to us, which is, you know, our
[28:22] point to point and connections to US and, and just making sure
[28:27] that we offer that choice and meaningful connections for our
[28:31] customers. What's the split between O&D
[28:34] traffic and and onwards connecting to US because you've
[28:38] been talking about it? Yeah, yeah, it would vary from
[28:41] Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore and every flight also behaves
[28:48] differently. Yeah, yeah.
[28:49] So I ideally it's about 6040 on a on an overall ratio basis.
[28:55] But having said that, if you were on a day flight from Delhi,
[28:59] which is, which lands into Heathrow at about 4:35 in the
[29:02] evening, the connections are limited.
[29:04] So you would probably have only 20% passengers.
[29:08] But if you are on a night flight from Delhi, Mumbai or Bangalore
[29:11] night flight or early morning departures, they land into
[29:14] Heathrow between 9:30 ten and then you connect to our entire
[29:19] US network. That ratio is about 40%.
[29:23] So it, it varies. But at the moment that's that's
[29:27] what, as I said, you know, they're designed to connect to
[29:31] our network all the night departures.
[29:33] Yeah. And again, when we were looking
[29:35] at Bangalore, you know, that's what the opportunity was also
[29:39] not just to London, but also on word connections being a tech
[29:43] and an IT hub. It does have that you know
[29:48] connection, I mean opportunity for US connecting traffic and
[29:53] and those are the things we keep in mind when we are planning
[29:56] schedules. So it it was designed to have,
[29:59] you know, connect to AUS network.
[30:01] That is actually a great segue to my next question about
[30:05] Heathrow itself. Airlines have long moaned and
[30:09] cried about slots at London Heathrow.
[30:12] Some call it unfair, some call it opaque, blah blah blah.
[30:16] How do slot dynamics at Heathrow influence which Indian cities
[30:21] you prioritize Shivani? Yes, I agree.
[30:25] Heathrow is one of the most slot constrained airports in the
[30:29] world. So every movement has to earn
[30:32] its place and we are very careful about deploying those
[30:36] slots and a lot of focus. And in fact the key focus I I
[30:41] would say is to build sustained performance and not just the
[30:45] initial strong demand when we launch a route.
[30:48] So that means it's a fine balance of point to point
[30:54] traffic and also connecting traffic so that we can amplify
[30:58] on both the sides. So when we're carrying traffic
[31:01] from India to UK on how that slot is also helping us on the
[31:09] network side of things, you know, it has to create that
[31:13] network advantage and not just incremental capacity.
[31:19] So when we're looking at routes, we always keep that in mind.
[31:21] Is it just, you know, point to point or is it going to help us?
[31:25] That slot will also help us connect. 70% of our flying is
[31:32] Atlantic transatlantic, so we say there's no virgin without
[31:37] the Atlantic. Absolutely well said.
[31:42] The new multi party agreement with Indigo Delta and Air France
[31:47] KLM aims to expand reach. How does that four way
[31:51] partnership reshape the competitive map for India, UK or
[31:56] India, North America travel and transfer traffic?
[31:59] This is not just an incremental step, it's a strategic pivot
[32:04] that fundamentally changes Virgin Atlantic's position
[32:08] positioning rather right. Why this escalation became
[32:12] necessary? I'm just trying to understand
[32:14] and what it means for the long term profitability and market
[32:19] positioning of the brand in the country.
[32:21] Why was Indigo's presence important in all of this?
[32:26] So I would say the key thing is how we are leveraging each
[32:30] other's strength. Indigo has a vast domestic
[32:34] network, that's their biggest strength.
[32:37] Virgin's bases, the UK, when we look at Delta, North America is
[32:43] their biggest strength. And for Europe, you know, Air
[32:48] France, KLM has the biggest reach.
[32:51] So how and ultimately when all of the four carriers come
[32:57] together, it's how we're making use of each other's network and
[33:00] strength. So when, as I think I said it
[33:03] earlier is we're linking Indigo's vast domestic network
[33:09] from India to Virgin's base, which is Heathrow to UKS to USS,
[33:17] you know, Delta's North America's strength.
[33:19] It's creating that network, that global connectivity across all
[33:25] of these regions for the customer.
[33:27] It's end to end. You know, when, if you're flying
[33:32] Indigo from here to Manchester, how, how you can connect onto
[33:38] the US network. It's again, it's giving that
[33:40] choice. And then at the end of the day,
[33:43] it's going to be literally it's reimagining travel in a way that
[33:48] you can book endless itineraries.
[33:53] I can't even imagine if you know the number of itineraries one
[33:56] would be able to book. So that's, that's on a global
[34:00] platform when just, you know, giving customers that choice.
[34:05] And as airlines, we, you know, utilizing each other's strength
[34:10] and it's all about, you know, those deeper collaborations and
[34:15] how we leverage each other's strength.
[34:18] So what's next in your relationship with Indigo?
[34:21] This is next. What we just spoke about the MOU
[34:25] has been signed. There's a lot of work going
[34:28] around in the background. So when finally that will come
[34:32] into to life is you know operations, everything is being
[34:37] worked around the technology side of things.
[34:39] So this is what we are focusing on at the moment.
[34:42] This is the next step. You have mentioned how you love
[34:46] competition. SAR competition is healthy.
[34:49] I don't see it as a negative. Yeah.
[34:51] I correct myself, you are right. Nonetheless, we are seeing
[34:55] Indigo's own operations to London Heathrow now, besides
[34:59] Manchester, Amsterdam, Copenhagen.
[35:02] Athens is about to start next month on the XLR come 202728.
[35:09] One shouldn't be surprised if they start flying closer to your
[35:12] friends in US. How does this all work out?
[35:15] I'm just curious, is this a partnership of convenience?
[35:20] Lots of factors are at play. Are we all frenemies now?
[35:23] I. Like that word frenemies I would
[35:27] say, you know Vishal, you know the future of aviation in India,
[35:32] right? In the next 5 years, by 2030,
[35:36] India set to become the third largest market in terms of
[35:41] passenger air travel. Every airline will have the
[35:46] expansion plans, you know, and Indigo doing really well.
[35:51] That's but natural. Everyone will think of the
[35:53] expansion plans. And going back to what I said is
[36:00] how are we using those partnerships?
[36:02] We, we also have a joint venture partner partnership with DD also
[36:07] fly on the US root on their own metal.
[36:11] But then we all leverage each other's partnerships and that's
[36:15] what we are going to focus on, on how we focus on how we work
[36:19] with Indigo on these partnerships.
[36:23] And at the moment we, we are all partners with each other.
[36:27] So that's what we are going to see and, and wishing Indigo all
[36:33] the best. They are code share partners.
[36:36] Well, the India UK market has unlimited demand, everybody.
[36:41] For everyone to grow and everyone is adding that
[36:45] additional capacity new, you know more frequencies.
[36:50] Frequencies is because there is demand, there is that growing
[36:56] outbound travel demand that we are seeing and I'm sure
[37:01] everyone's going to grow and as I said, there's room for
[37:05] everyone to grow. As an Indian, I'm enjoying the
[37:09] fact that we might soon have two strong India based international
[37:13] carriers. We have never been in a
[37:15] situation like this before, but as a nation and a massive
[37:20] market, we deserve that. Let's talk about cargo.
[37:25] Somehow, it never gets as much prominence because the passenger
[37:29] part of the business is probably more glamorous.
[37:33] Cargo operations in your business have shown a staggering
[37:36] 356% capacity increase since 2019.
[37:42] Strategically, how important is freight revenue to the overall
[37:46] profitability and business model of your Indian operations,
[37:50] Shivani? Yeah.
[37:52] So cargo has become one of our most exciting parts.
[37:56] You know, you said it it it doesn't get that limelight.
[38:00] But I have to tell you, since 2019, it's seen a similar growth
[38:05] trajectory as passenger. So it's grown 356% in cargo
[38:11] capacity. And that's not just now a side
[38:15] business, it's a key driver of route profitability and
[38:19] resilience. You know, in COVID, when there
[38:23] were no passengers travelling, it was cargo that kept us going.
[38:29] And India's export market has evolved drastically, you know,
[38:33] from textiles to e-commerce to perishables, pharmaceuticals.
[38:38] At the same time there's we also seeing a rising demand from UK
[38:44] and beyond imports into India. So you, you know, it's all
[38:48] reflecting that India's consumer power and our modern fleet.
[38:54] I think we spoke about this, you know, particularly the 78 sevens
[38:58] and the A3 50s, they give us that flexibility to optimize
[39:04] passenger as well as freight loads efficiently.
[39:08] And in short, I, I can say that cargo is not just a part of the
[39:13] business model, it's a pillar of growth.
[39:16] And we've seen that, you know, 356% growth since 2019 doing
[39:21] amazingly well. And again, for for India, it's,
[39:26] you know, all three routes we see from Bangalore, from Mumbai,
[39:30] Delhi cargo is doing extremely well.
[39:34] If you know when we are planning a commercial strategy, you know,
[39:39] every time we plan a new route or we are assessing routes, it's
[39:43] always with the dual focus. It's passenger and cargo, you
[39:48] know, and what aircraft is deployed on each route.
[39:53] Both of these things are kept in mind, you know, not just who's
[39:59] flying, but what's flying, you know, what's the export makes,
[40:03] what are the demand cycles, what are the trading opportunities we
[40:06] have from these routes. So our commercial and cargo
[40:09] teams are always working hand in hand, you know, seeing when
[40:13] we're looking at routes or we need to align pricing, what's
[40:17] the capacity, the seasonality of each route and just to make sure
[40:23] they're profitable year round. And again, as I'd mentioned
[40:28] about the aircrafts, that play a key role when we are looking
[40:32] into routes because we need to look at cargo as well as
[40:35] passenger volumes. Virgin has emphasized a young,
[40:41] clean fleet strategy. Any specific examples where a
[40:45] newer aircraft unlocked a route or a cabin product that an older
[40:50] fleet wouldn't support? We all know you have the latest
[40:55] 7-8 nines as well as the A3 50s in your fleet.
[40:59] All, all of the India routes have been there for a long time,
[41:02] especially Delhi and we've changed aircrafts, you know as
[41:05] you said on the India routes and every every six, 7-8 years these
[41:12] aircrafts are changed. So I can't really say that
[41:15] specifically because of an aircraft we have unlocked a
[41:21] route and these for India specifically we've these are
[41:25] long standing routes and every time we are up gauging as as we
[41:31] keep bringing new aircrafts into the fleet.
[41:33] Let's talk about the sky high club.
[41:36] Like with most things virgin ample amount of cheek.
[41:40] What business insight prompted in India only trade rewards
[41:44] program And what early ROI signals are you tracking?
[41:48] Is it bookings? Is it retention?
[41:51] Average booking value? What are you tracking?
[41:53] Sure. So Sky High Club is my one of my
[41:57] favourite initiatives. It's a truly rewarding program
[42:02] designed for the front line Booker.
[42:05] We've launched it in the UK. It's going to be 3 years this
[42:07] November and India was then first international market for
[42:12] Virgin to have this programme. We launched it in June this
[42:17] year. How it works is the agent has to
[42:21] sign up for the programme, which is Virgin Atlantic Sky High,
[42:25] Club dot in, and every time they make a Virgin Atlantic booking,
[42:30] they earn points which can be redeemed across 200 partners
[42:36] that we have on board. And these are uniquely Virgin
[42:39] rewards. You can think experiences,
[42:42] special events, you know, things that go beyond traditional
[42:47] incentives. It's already performing really
[42:51] well. I won't be able to share
[42:53] specific numbers here, but all I can say, you know, it's driving
[42:58] that brand preference and loyalty.
[43:01] And we've seen high levels of engagement from the travel agent
[43:06] community, which was, you know, which is what was our key
[43:09] objective. You know, more than just the
[43:11] numbers of say, these many registrations or these many
[43:15] claims, What matters most is that we have a program that the
[43:20] travel agents love. They are connected to.
[43:24] I know it makes them feel a part of the Virgin family, which is,
[43:28] you know, all boils down to what our key brand values are.
[43:33] You know, have that connect with the brand and every time you
[43:36] know, the team is out and about in the market, Everyone is
[43:39] giving such great feedback about this loyalty program.
[43:43] And I think it's there were few airlines a couple of years back
[43:48] who had this in the market. But at the moment, Virgin's
[43:52] again back with something new and everyone's loving it.
[43:56] So for this program, are there any ROI metrics that you focus
[44:01] on? Is it a combination of different
[44:03] things maybe? So, yeah, so the first and
[44:07] foremost when we launched it was to have certain number of
[44:12] registrations in the first year given the, you know, travel
[44:16] agency universe or the travel agent universe in India.
[44:19] So the first metrics is sign ups and registrations.
[44:23] And then going beyond just those numbers, it's what's the
[44:26] engagement level, how many agents who've signed up are
[44:30] actually redeeming those points, how engaged they are.
[44:33] So it's not always about, you know, 1 is of course, they book
[44:38] and they claim those points. We constantly have like special
[44:42] campaigns. We just had a Diwali campaign.
[44:45] We will be launching a Christmas campaign where you can earn
[44:49] extra points basically every time.
[44:51] So it's about how engaging even we make for the front line
[44:56] bookers. And yeah, so those are the
[45:00] metrics. It's how many people we have and
[45:03] the engagement levels with us. So it leads to loads, basically
[45:10] passenger and cargo loads. Are you satisfied with the
[45:14] passenger loads you're getting out of the Indian market?
[45:16] Shivani, can you share what kind of percentage you are seeing in
[45:21] in terms of load factors? We are very satisfied on an
[45:26] average it's 85 to 90% in summer months.
[45:31] We also on certain days of rate 100%.
[45:36] So it's it's a great market for load factors and yes, doing
[45:41] really well in terms of load factors.
[45:45] Of course there are there are their seasonalities across every
[45:48] route. But as I said, it's 85 to 90%
[45:52] average from India. Great, that's a strong case for
[45:57] adding more routes, hopefully maybe more frequencies out of
[46:01] Delhi, my home airport. India is set to become the
[46:04] world's third largest aviation market.
[46:07] Aside from growth in corporate and VFR, what less talked about
[46:12] trends do you anticipate will most significantly shape the
[46:16] future of air travel? Shivani, I'm sure you will have
[46:20] some great insights as a country leader from a macro and a micro
[46:24] level. So there's some really
[46:26] interesting shifts happening in aviation right now that I see,
[46:31] especially around technology and traveller behaviour.
[46:35] On the tech side, you know, we're seeing huge advances from
[46:39] generative AI, you know, AI being used for flight schedules,
[46:44] pricing, you know, enhancing customer experience to smart
[46:48] airports. So when you're travelling, you
[46:50] know how biometrics are being used at airports, Digi wallet,
[46:55] all of those things will go bigger and bigger in the new
[46:58] future, in the near future. But again, I always feel, you
[47:03] know, even as technology takes over, you know, transactional
[47:08] parts of travel, I, I generally feel that warmth and, you know,
[47:14] that human connection will always stay important because at
[47:17] the end of the day, you know, customers want those smiles,
[47:21] that reassurance and those personal touches that travellers
[47:26] are looking for. But that's on the tech side.
[47:30] And the other thing that another big trend I see is the leisure
[47:34] generation, you know, the young aspiring travellers who are
[47:38] prioritising experiences over possessions and they're looking
[47:42] at, they're looking for authenticity, creativity and
[47:46] much more meaningful experiences.
[47:49] So these are the two shifts I see.
[47:52] One is on the tech side of things on how airports and
[47:56] airlines are going to be using AI and the other is the shift in
[48:01] traveller behaviour of, you know, the leisure aspiring
[48:05] travellers and the young generation choosing travel over
[48:10] just, you know, possessions. As one of the few female country
[48:16] managers in Indian aviation, what practical advice would you
[48:20] give to women aiming for senior airline roles and one personal
[48:25] habit that helped you succeed? So that's a very important
[48:31] question, Rishal, and something very close to my heart.
[48:34] For women who are aspiring to leadership roles, I'd say your
[48:41] voice is your superpower. You know, aviation has always
[48:44] been about precision and performance, but I also think it
[48:48] needs empathy and perspective. You know, don't quieten what
[48:53] makes you different, you know, bring that voice into the room.
[48:58] And I, I've always believed any organization that has a diverse
[49:03] representation, you know, that's crucial to any business's
[49:06] success. And the earlier we imbibe that
[49:11] inclusion and diversity, you know, we unlock so much more
[49:15] talent and perspective. And personally, one habit that
[49:20] really helped me is having an open mind to learning and
[49:25] growing and just being curious whether it's, you know, being
[49:30] curious about people, cultures and idea.
[49:33] I've, I've moved roles, you know, from marketing.
[49:36] I came to commercial you, you because I had that, you know,
[49:42] passion for growing and learning.
[49:45] And I moved literally my roles after 10/12/14 years.
[49:51] So it's because I always wanted to learn.
[49:55] And every day, you know, every day you're learning something
[49:57] new. So yes, that's what I would tell
[50:00] everyone who's aspiring that bring your perspective into the
[50:06] room and don't be shy of it. And I would all, you know, I
[50:11] have this vision and I all I envision this travel industry,
[50:18] you know, that it's represented by equally by women, you know,
[50:24] at every level, you know, be it decision making, board rooms or
[50:29] operational roles or even front, front line, front line roles
[50:34] where inclusivity is just not a policy.
[50:37] It's an inherent part of our culture.
[50:40] It really will, you know, bring that talent into every
[50:47] organization. Thanks for sharing all that,
[50:50] Shivani. You know, over the last 55
[50:53] episodes I've done of The Indian Ad Geek, I've had less than a
[50:57] handful of women on the show. On the other hand, the other
[51:01] podcast that I produce, The Indian Ad Geek, the ratio of
[51:05] women leaders is far higher, probably also reflective of the
[51:10] industry in some manner. By the way, did you enjoy the
[51:14] marketing role more or is the commercial role more exciting
[51:18] for you? I have enjoyed both.
[51:21] I really can't pick 1. I had a great time when I was
[51:26] in, in advertising, events, marketing.
[51:30] And I've, I think I've brought that into that, that flavour
[51:33] into the commercial side of things and I'm loving this side
[51:37] as well. Honestly, I will.
[51:38] I'll say it because in the last two years it's been, you know,
[51:43] such a different side of the world and I'm truly enjoying it.
[51:50] It's difficult to pick one, honestly.
[51:52] Alright, you have a new boss starting next month.
[51:55] In January, the new CEO of Virgin Atlantic will be Corneal
[52:00] Costa. Are you planning to get him over
[52:02] to India soon? Hopefully, yes, we should see
[52:06] him in India in 2026. He's been to India in his
[52:11] previous or his current role and then he transitioned into his
[52:17] new role as our CEO in January. But yes, looking forward to
[52:23] having him in India soon. And my final question to you,
[52:27] Shivani, do you have any favorite books or podcast
[52:31] recommendations to share with listeners?
[52:34] So I've been reading Manifest, which is by Roxy Nafusi, and
[52:40] it's really stayed with me. You know, it's such a powerful
[52:43] reminder of mindset is everything, you know, believing
[52:47] that it is happening, you know, visualizing it, taking those
[52:51] small steps and those consistent actions to be where you want to
[52:56] be. And what I love is it's not just
[52:59] some lofty abstract idea. It's incredibly practical.
[53:03] It reminds you that if you really believe in something, you
[53:07] can definitely make it happen with clarity, intention and
[53:12] purpose. And that's something I really
[53:15] believe in is that you manifest and you will definitely get to
[53:21] where you want to be. Thanks so much for your time
[53:24] Shivani. Loved our chat.
[53:26] Best wishes to you and the entire Virgin Atlantic team in
[53:29] India. Thank.
[53:30] You so much, Vishal, but I'm so glad we did this today.
[53:33] It was a pleasure speaking with you.
[53:36] And there you have it, a conversation that was smoother
[53:39] than a check in at the upper class wing.
[53:42] Huge thanks to Shivani for bringing that flair to the show.
[53:46] Next Sunday, The Indian Ad Geeks episode 15 will feature an
[53:50] industry legend Rishad Tobacco Wala in a special year and a
[53:55] show of the podcast. For now, don't forget to
[53:59] subscribe and share this episode of The Indian AAP Geek with your
[54:03] fellow AP Geeks and you will find me everywhere as at Vishal
[54:08] 1 Mehra. Happy to have your feedback with
[54:11] that. Keep your tray tables up, your
[54:14] seatbelts fastened. I wish you well and happy flying
[54:19] my friends.

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