# NYT Bestselling Author Kennedy Ryan: Black Love, Romance & "The Bar Is in Hell"

An episode of [Awf The Record](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1758650789), 9 Jul 2026, 1 h 01 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2372866/episodes/19467329-nyt-bestselling-author-kennedy-ryan-black-love-romance-the-bar-is-in-hell.mp3

Send us Fan Mail New York Times bestselling author Kennedy Ryan is not just writing romance. She is writing Black women into love stories where they are centered, desired, protected, and loved outrageously. In this episode of Awf The Record, Kennedy joins Jeannette Reyes and Mona Kosar Abdi to talk about the craft, conviction, and cost behind her work. She opens up about getting her first book deal at 40, why romance is often dismissed because it centers women’s pleasure, and how writing from a specific point of view actually expanded her audience instead of limiting it. Kennedy also gets honest about burnout, depression, motherhood, marriage, and the pressure of navigating major Hollywood deals while still fighting for visibility in publishing. From centering Black women on the page and on the cover, to raising the bar for what love can look like, this conversation is a reminder to never settle, in romance, in work, or in the life you are building for yourself. KEY POINTS 00:00 - Introduction: Kennedy Ryan on Black love, romance, and raising the bar 02:37 - Kennedy explains how her storytelling process evolved from ideas to intentional discourse 05:39 - Kennedy shares why decades of writing in the dark prepared her for “overnight” success 09:48 - Romance is often dismissed because it centers women’s pleasure 14:04 - Why Kennedy centers Black women on the page, on the cover, and in the audience 17:44 - Her advice to young authors: figure out your why and be prepared to fight 20:23 - Kennedy opens up about the cost of success, burnout, and struggling to celebrate 34:30 - Faith, community, therapy, and medication helped her survive the hardest seasons 56:18 - Her relationship commandments after 29 years of marriage: trust, reciprocity, and never settle QUOTES "I want to put black women on the page who are being loved outrageously." – Kennedy Ryan "I could write the man that I believe you deserve. I could write an experience that I believe honors you, that is a partner you can trust, a partner who's faithful, a partner who honors your dreams and your ambitions." – Kennedy Ryan "There is enough in culture that tells black women we don't deserve, and that tells black women that we shouldn't expect. So, I get to write an outcome that says, no, actually, you deserve the best, and you should expect a partner who loves you and whom you can trust." – Kennedy Ryan "Racism costs us all money." – Kennedy Ryan "I call it being the architect of your own existence, build a life that you love and you're excited about, and you're not waiting for anything, and when that partner comes, invite him or her into that, but you're not waiting to build anything." – Kennedy Ryan RESOURCES: Keep in touch with Awf The Record: Youtube: @AwfTheRecord Instagram: @awftherecordpodcast TikTok: @AwfTheRecord Mona Kosar Abdi IG | @monakabdi Jeannette Reyes IG | @msnewslady Keep in touch with Awf The Record: Watch on Youtube: @AwfTheRecord Follow us on Instagram: @awftherecordpodcast Follow us on TikTok: @AwfTheRecord Visit our website: www.AwfTheRecord.com Follow Mona on TikTok and IG Follow Jeannette on TikTok and IG

## Transcript

[0:00] SPEAKER_01: I want to put black women on the page who are being loved outrageously.
[0:04] SPEAKER_01: This week, New York Times best-selling author Kennedy Ryan goes off the record.
[0:08] SPEAKER_01: I could write the man that I believe you deserve.
[0:10] SPEAKER_01: Is it unrealistic or is it the bar?
[0:12] SPEAKER_01: The bar is pretty low.
[0:14] SPEAKER_00: Some would say the bar is in hell.
[0:15] SPEAKER_01: And she did it all while ignoring the advice to make her stories more marketable.
[0:19] SPEAKER_01: You not only make black women feel steam, but you actually literally on the cover.
[0:23] SPEAKER_01: Live in a capitalistic society, and book publishers will tell you, hey, this may hurt your sales.
[0:28] SPEAKER_01: I had heard that conversation.
[0:30] SPEAKER_03: Everybody's invited.
[0:31] SPEAKER_03: You white, you're Latina, you're Asian, you're whatever.
[0:34] SPEAKER_03: You were invited to the party, but it's a black woman on the page.
[0:37] SPEAKER_03: My last three books have been on the New York Times bestseller list.
[0:40] SPEAKER_03: Black women put me there.
[0:42] SPEAKER_03: But the overnight success you see now was decades in the make it.
[0:45] SPEAKER_03: I didn't get my first book deal until I was 40.
[0:48] SPEAKER_03: I was doing ghostwriting.
[0:49] SPEAKER_03: I was writing for churches, nonprofits, wherever I could.
[0:53] SPEAKER_03: I was writing for chicken stew for the soul.
[0:55] SPEAKER_03: And while she was quietly building her career, life kept testing her.
[0:59] SPEAKER_03: My son was diagnosed with autism on a Thursday, and the next day my husband lost his job.
[1:03] SPEAKER_01: Twenty years later, success finally arrived.
[1:06] SPEAKER_01: So did the pressure.
[1:07] SPEAKER_01: I was on the road 35 weeks out of the year.
[1:10] SPEAKER_01: It was only 52.
[1:11] SPEAKER_01: She made the hardest decision of her career and pulled the plug.
[1:14] SPEAKER_03: My husband was like, it's too much.
[1:17] SPEAKER_03: I think you should cancel your travel for the year.
[1:19] SPEAKER_03: And I made the announcement there were a lot of people who were really disappointed.
[1:23] SPEAKER_01: Now, Hollywood is calling with a first look deal, a producer's deal, and multiple adaptations in the works.
[1:29] SPEAKER_01: Kennedy's story is just getting started.
[1:32] SPEAKER_01: So of course, we asked her to spill a little tea.
[1:34] SPEAKER_01: Any tea that you can spill on these shows coming down the pipeline.
[1:39] SPEAKER_01: This series has also been optioned for television.
[1:45] SPEAKER_01: Good evening, good time now.
[1:46] SPEAKER_01: It's 552.
[1:47] SPEAKER_01: I'm Jeanette Reyes.
[1:48] SPEAKER_01: And I'm Mona Coastar Abdi, and this is off the record.
[1:51] SPEAKER_01: Not for real.
[1:52] SPEAKER_01: This is off the record.
[1:56] SPEAKER_00: Kennedy Ryan, welcome to Off the Record.
[1:59] SPEAKER_00: Thank you, boo.
[2:00] SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited to be here.
[2:02] SPEAKER_00: You know, it's so interesting to meet someone whose like work you've been in for so long.
[2:08] SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
[2:09] SPEAKER_00: Like there's something intimate about reading somebody's story and somebody's work.
[2:12] SPEAKER_00: So it's an honor to have you on.
[2:14] SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, thank you.
[2:15] SPEAKER_01: Yes.
[2:15] SPEAKER_01: No, we're in awe of like what you're able to do.
[2:18] SPEAKER_01: Really?
[2:18] SPEAKER_01: Um, it does.
[2:20] SPEAKER_01: Listen, don't ask me to write a book.
[2:22] SPEAKER_01: Do not ask me to write a book.
[2:24] SPEAKER_01: And I say that because of the storytelling aspect.
[2:27] SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's where we start, where I want to know like, how do these stories come to you?
[2:31] SPEAKER_01: Are you walking around downtown Manhattan and you all of a sudden you see a character?
[2:35] SPEAKER_01: What is going on?
[2:37] SPEAKER_01: No.
[2:37] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that my process as a storyteller has evolved a lot.
[2:43] SPEAKER_03: I think that when I started out in journalism, you know, my background is journalism.
[2:48] SPEAKER_03: I never thought that I would be writing commercial fiction.
[2:51] SPEAKER_03: Um, I came to it later in life.
[2:53] SPEAKER_03: I didn't get my first book deal until I was 40.
[2:56] SPEAKER_03: Um, and when I I kind of stumbled into it.
[3:00] SPEAKER_03: And when I first started, like people have these stories about, oh my gosh, you're gonna get a hundred rejection letters and you're gonna have to work at this for four years, five years before anything breaks.
[3:10] SPEAKER_03: And for me, it was a very different journey.
[3:12] SPEAKER_03: Like the I kind of experimentally pitched to an agent and she was like, I want to represent you.
[3:18] SPEAKER_03: And the first editor that I pitched to was like, I want the book.
[3:22] SPEAKER_03: So it was very weird, but I say that because it kind of thrust me into the industry before I really knew a lot about it.
[3:29] SPEAKER_03: And I was really wet behind the ears.
[3:31] SPEAKER_03: And I feel like the longer I've been in the industry, the more intentional I've become about storytelling.
[3:36] SPEAKER_03: I know I've become a lot more intentional about storytelling over the years.
[3:41] SPEAKER_03: And now for me, I I don't even know what I started with before.
[3:44] SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, I've got an idea, let me just write that, which is completely valid.
[3:48] SPEAKER_03: But now I really start with discourse.
[3:50] SPEAKER_03: Like I really start with what is the conversation I want to have with my readers?
[3:54] SPEAKER_03: What is the conversation I want to have with broader culture?
[3:57] SPEAKER_03: Like, what do what is the conversation I want to encourage between other people?
[4:02] SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I do a lot of research and I build the character.
[4:06] SPEAKER_03: Like, who is the who are the characters who are best suited to carry this discourse and to to carry this conversation that I want to have with my readers.
[4:15] SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of how I approach storytelling.
[4:17] SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, you know, it's got the spice.
[4:20] SPEAKER_03: I write romance.
[4:21] SPEAKER_03: Um, so I call my romance a Trojan Horse.
[4:24] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, meaning all of these conversations I want to have, like the book that um just came out recently, which is called Score, the heroine has bipolar disorder, she's bisexual, she's a black woman, she's a screenwriter.
[4:36] SPEAKER_03: Um there's so it's highly intersectional, but there's a real conversation I want to have about mental health, mental illness, with black, especially with black women, and how we are navigating it in this country.
[4:47] SPEAKER_03: And so I am embedding that discourse in a spicy romance novel.
[4:53] SPEAKER_03: You know, and people are like, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, okay.
[4:56] SPEAKER_00: Speaking, speaking of the spice, there have been many a days where I was hanging out in the garage, my car listening to the I told my husband, we we had to cover breaking news on ready time.
[5:04] SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I'm the car privately.
[5:06] SPEAKER_00: But there's something I want to go back because there's something really powerful you said.
[5:09] SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it's like it took 30, 20 years for you to become an overnight success.
[5:15] SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people, especially you came on the scene and just kind of you've just skyrocketed very quickly, but there was a lot of work that came beforehand that I think people underestimate, which is why I believe you caught on so quickly.
[5:30] SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of kind of working on your craft in the dark.
[5:33] SPEAKER_00: Did you ever question whether you had it?
[5:36] SPEAKER_00: Like, am I actually good?
[5:40] SPEAKER_03: I knew I was a good writer.
[5:42] SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, like, just technically, you know, you go to school, they you you learn how to write.
[5:50] SPEAKER_03: Like, I so I knew I was a pretty good writer.
[5:53] SPEAKER_03: Um, just the mechanics of it, just the essence of what it means to tell a good story.
[5:59] SPEAKER_03: Um, when I got into fiction, uh, I didn't take it for granted.
[6:03] SPEAKER_03: I I had a degree, I'd been writing for a long time.
[6:07] SPEAKER_03: I was, you know, I was doing ghostwriting, I was writing for uh do churches, nonprofits wherever I could.
[6:15] SPEAKER_03: I was writing for Chicken Soup for the Soul.
[6:17] SPEAKER_03: Um, I was running a foundation for families who have children with autism because my son is on the spectrum.
[6:22] SPEAKER_03: So I was doing a lot of writing around special needs parenting.
[6:25] SPEAKER_03: Um, so when I got into writing fiction, I really didn't take craft for granted.
[6:31] SPEAKER_03: So I took courses, you know, I took courses on how to write fiction.
[6:35] SPEAKER_03: Um, I took courses on romance and writing romance.
[6:39] SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't think I ever doubted that I had it as far as like being a good writer, but you never know what people will respond to.
[6:48] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think what I didn't anticipate is that as my journey as a storyteller evolved and became really more intentional, and when I say intentional, my characters have a definite point of view.
[7:02] SPEAKER_03: They're I'm not interested in neutrality.
[7:04] SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
[7:05] SPEAKER_03: So I have a character who is fighting gerrymandering.
[7:10] SPEAKER_03: You know, I have an indigenous character who is, you know, lobbying for missing and murdered indigenous women and, you know, navigating systemic bias in that.
[7:19] SPEAKER_03: Like my characters, as I've evolved, have a definite point of view.
[7:23] SPEAKER_03: You don't have to wonder what do they believe, and as a reflection, what does Kennedy believe?
[7:27] SPEAKER_03: Have you ever been discouraged from having your characters be?
[7:30] SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes, yes, for sure.
[7:32] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[7:33] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think um, and what I was saying with that is I that there's an assumption that the more intentional you become and the more pointed you become in your perspective, that somehow you become less successful, you know, because you're slicing into this broad audience that you could have.
[7:54] SPEAKER_03: When for me it's been the opposite.
[7:56] SPEAKER_03: The more intentional I have become, the more pointed I have become in expressing my convictions and my beliefs through fiction, um, the broader my audience has gotten.
[8:07] SPEAKER_03: And I don't mean broader like it's a big wide open door and it's everybody.
[8:11] SPEAKER_03: I just mean that my platform has grown.
[8:13] SPEAKER_03: And I think because it is a specific perspective, and it's I'm often writing the perspective of people who have been relegated to the periphery.
[8:20] SPEAKER_03: So I'm writing marginalized identities and communities and people with chronic illnesses and people whose um, you know, whose stories have been peripheralized.
[8:30] SPEAKER_03: And so it's kind of like they're all like, fine, you know, we're on the page, you know, here we are.
[8:35] SPEAKER_03: Not that I'm the only writer who's doing that, but for me, it seemed counterintuitive.
[8:41] SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, people are gonna call you political or people are gonna call you whatever, and you're gonna lose audience.
[8:47] SPEAKER_03: And for me, it gained momentum.
[8:49] SPEAKER_03: The more pointed and the more intentional I became, and the more convicted I became, um, and expressing my beliefs through my work, the broader the audience.
[9:00] SPEAKER_01: Real quick, I want to talk about the romance genre.
[9:03] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[9:04] SPEAKER_01: Because I believe if you don't know how people see it, how you know, either book publishers or the greater public see this genre, then they don't understand what you're doing and how unique what you're doing is.
[9:16] SPEAKER_01: So please explain to me just what is the stereotype around romance?
[9:20] SPEAKER_01: Romance.
[9:21] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know that what people will say, oh, Kennedy is doing something subversive, Kennedy's doing something unique.
[9:29] SPEAKER_03: And I don't know that that's the truth.
[9:31] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think that I think it's there's daylight between what is actually happening in the genre and what the public perceives the genre to be.
[9:40] SPEAKER_03: Um, and what I mean by that is all my friends who write romance are writing into the same things that I, a lot of the same things I am, you know.
[9:49] SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think that there is a, there has been a perception historically of romance that has been dismissive.
[9:58] SPEAKER_03: I think that broader culture has often been dismissive of romance and reductive and thought it was something um frivolous.
[10:06] SPEAKER_03: What'd you say?
[10:07] SPEAKER_00: Like frivolous, just kind of frivolous.
[10:09] SPEAKER_03: Um, also, I mean, corn.
[10:12] SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of people say it was just corn.
[10:15] SPEAKER_03: Um and I think I have been very vocal about the fact that I think that a lot of the dismissive discourse around romance is rooted in patriarchy and misogyny.
[10:26] SPEAKER_03: Um, because this is a genre that centers primarily, centers women's pleasure, is primarily written by women and primarily consumed by women.
[10:36] SPEAKER_03: Not that there aren't guys out there reading romance, but anytime you have something that centers our pleasure, that we are the primary audience for, and we are basically in charge of producing, patriarchy is not going to like that.
[10:48] SPEAKER_03: And so I think that any we're talking about the things that are important to us, and romance is often also saying this is the way women should be treated.
[10:57] SPEAKER_03: Um and I think that patriarchy definitely plays into how people perceive it.
[11:01] SPEAKER_00: I wanna I want to talk about that actually, because what do you think about the criticism that your books or the romance genre uh perpetuate unrealistic expectations when it comes to romance, particularly for black women?
[11:12] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I laugh because I get that a lot.
[11:16] SPEAKER_03: Um from everybody.
[11:19] SPEAKER_03: I mean, I feel like in interviews, you know, I've sat down in interviews and people have, especially men, um, when they've interviewed me have said, you know, do you think that your romance novels are giving women these unrealistic expectations?
[11:33] SPEAKER_03: Um, and honestly, I and I've I've been saying this, so anyone who it's but it's true, I think that um I am not interested.
[11:42] SPEAKER_03: A lot of the reality of what women are navigating on the apps and in the real world of dating, a lot of that is is not great.
[11:52] SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't want to write anything that perpetuates a reality where women are not respected, where women are not, their dreams, dreams and their goals are not esteemed, where they are not treated with um as partners, as equals.
[12:07] SPEAKER_03: So I always say, I could write something that reflects a reality that is not always amazing for women, or I could write the man that I believe you deserve.
[12:17] SPEAKER_03: I could write an experience that I believe honors you, um, that is a partner you can trust, a partner who's faithful, a partner who honors your dreams and your ambitions.
[12:28] SPEAKER_03: I could write that for you.
[12:30] SPEAKER_03: And someone could call it unrealistic.
[12:32] SPEAKER_03: Is it unrealistic, or is it the bar?
[12:34] SPEAKER_03: Is it the bar that we are raising and saying, even in, I don't care if it's fiction, what I'm signaling to you is don't settle.
[12:42] SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I'm saying?
[12:43] SPEAKER_03: So at the very least, you're broadening people's horizons.
[12:46] SPEAKER_03: I should hope so.
[12:47] SPEAKER_03: And I always say, like, the bar is pretty low.
[12:50] SPEAKER_03: You know, some would say the bar is in hell.
[12:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have said that.
[12:53] SPEAKER_03: Some would say that.
[12:54] SPEAKER_03: I said that in the direct report.
[12:56] SPEAKER_03: I said it last week on stage.
[12:58] SPEAKER_03: I said the bar is in hell.
[12:59] SPEAKER_03: Um and pin, underlocation pin has been dropped.
[13:02] SPEAKER_03: That's what they've done.
[13:04] SPEAKER_03: So it's like I'd I would rather run the risk of someone saying, This amazing partner who has treated a woman well and who has demonstrated what it looks like to be supportive and trustworthy and loving.
[13:17] SPEAKER_03: I would rather run the risk of someone saying that's unrealistic than write something that signals to women you don't deserve this, that signals to women you should settle.
[13:27] SPEAKER_03: Or normalizes it.
[13:28] SPEAKER_03: Or normalizes it.
[13:29] SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
[13:29] SPEAKER_03: And I believe that culture does normalize that we should settle.
[13:33] SPEAKER_03: And I'm writing primarily black women.
[13:36] SPEAKER_03: And I want to put black women on the page who are being loved outrageously.
[13:40] SPEAKER_03: I always say this, who are being loved outrageously and radically accepted and seen as partners.
[13:47] SPEAKER_03: So I there is enough in culture that tells black women we don't deserve and that tells black women that we shouldn't expect.
[13:55] SPEAKER_03: So I get to write an outcome that says, no, actually, you deserve the best and you should expect a partner who loves you and whom you can trust.
[14:04] SPEAKER_01: You not only make black women feel seen, but you actually literally on the cover, the illustrations are black women, black men and women.
[14:12] SPEAKER_01: I want to talk to you about that because I'm sorry, but we live in a capitalistic society and people will tell you, book publishers will tell you, hey, this may hurt your sales.
[14:21] SPEAKER_01: If you are in Target, if you are in a Barnes and Noble, people may not gravitate towards that because they'll say, Oh, that is for black people.
[14:28] SPEAKER_01: Right.
[14:29] SPEAKER_01: Did you have those conversations?
[14:31] SPEAKER_03: I that conversation, I had heard that conversation.
[14:34] SPEAKER_03: I think at a certain point in my career I had bought into that.
[14:37] SPEAKER_03: Like, oh, that's right.
[14:39] SPEAKER_03: But at a certain point, uh, it's like uh something clicked for me.
[14:45] SPEAKER_03: And I said, Who are people?
[14:47] SPEAKER_03: Who is people?
[14:49] SPEAKER_03: Because the person that I am writing this book for, and the per I mean, everybody's invited.
[14:54] SPEAKER_03: You white, you're Latina, you're Asian, you're whatever, you are invited to the party, but it's a black woman on the page, right?
[15:02] SPEAKER_03: And so a black woman is my most reliable customer, my most reliable consumer.
[15:08] SPEAKER_03: She does want to see herself on the cover.
[15:10] SPEAKER_03: So it may be that there, it may be that everybody doesn't want it, but there's going to be a broad segment of the buying public that is pleased to see black women on the cover.
[15:21] SPEAKER_03: And that's who I'm, that's who I'm drawing.
[15:24] SPEAKER_03: I draw, I mean, so when I just, you know, was on tour and we did a theater tour, uh, which is for me 800 to 1,000 people at every stop.
[15:35] SPEAKER_03: The beauty of seeing, you know, the Lincoln Theater in DC packed from bottom to top with black women.
[15:43] SPEAKER_03: Or in Atlanta, we were just in Decatur First Baptist, a thousand readers packed from the bottom all the way up to the balcony, black women everywhere.
[15:53] SPEAKER_03: Like for me, that is the movement.
[15:56] SPEAKER_03: You know, and I'm not just talking about me as a writer, I'm talking about black romance writers.
[16:00] SPEAKER_03: Like in a lot of us are centering ourselves because we understand we have our own economy.
[16:07] SPEAKER_03: You know, we do live in a capitalist, capitalistic society.
[16:10] SPEAKER_03: But if you create a space where black women are centered and celebrated and the default is not whiteness, but the default is us, then we will come.
[16:19] SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
[16:21] SPEAKER_03: And we come in droves to support that because it's not seen enough.
[16:25] SPEAKER_03: And so when we come to a space, when we come to an artist, when we come to a writer, when we come to a story where we're centered and celebrated, not only do we come, we tell our friends, we bring our friends.
[16:37] SPEAKER_03: You know, my last three books have been on the New York Times bestseller list on the most competitive, which is adult fiction.
[16:43] SPEAKER_03: And I, and it's rare.
[16:45] SPEAKER_03: It is very rare for a black author to be on that list, much less a black romance author.
[16:50] SPEAKER_03: And I I, if I had not clicked into what we're talking about now, that wouldn't have happened.
[16:56] SPEAKER_03: Black women put me there.
[16:58] SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
[16:59] SPEAKER_03: And it's not that there's no one else, but I understand, I understand who my most reliable consumer is.
[17:05] SPEAKER_03: And people somehow project that black women don't read when statistically the person who is most likely to buy a book is a black woman.
[17:12] SPEAKER_03: The person demographically who is the most educated is a black woman.
[17:16] SPEAKER_03: And so creating a space where that woman who is the most likely to buy a book, who is the most educated, sees herself centered and celebrated, I think that it makes sense.
[17:26] SPEAKER_03: Economically, it makes sense.
[17:28] SPEAKER_03: And I think that when publishing neglects that, they shoot themselves in the foot because racism costs us all money.
[17:34] SPEAKER_03: And what is a lesson there?
[17:36] SPEAKER_01: If you were gonna tell a young author, if you're gonna push back against these norms, quote unquote, what is the lesson?
[17:44] SPEAKER_03: I think the lesson is, and it's a lesson that I learned as I went throughout my career, is first of all, you you can't be in it just for that.
[17:56] SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
[17:57] SPEAKER_03: Because you never know what's gonna hit.
[17:59] SPEAKER_03: You never know what's gonna be successful.
[18:01] SPEAKER_03: You never so it can't just be, it can't just be money.
[18:04] SPEAKER_03: It can't just be, I want to make money.
[18:06] SPEAKER_03: Um, you're gonna make a different set of decisions if that's the case.
[18:10] SPEAKER_03: For me, it wasn't me saying, I just want to make money.
[18:13] SPEAKER_03: It's me saying, This doesn't mean as much to me.
[18:16] SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean as much to me if I'm not writing, centering, and celebrating black women, chronically ill women, um, disabled women, like that segment of society that has not been seen at the center.
[18:32] SPEAKER_03: Um, I would say you have to figure it out for yourself.
[18:35] SPEAKER_03: Like you have to figure out what your own center is.
[18:37] SPEAKER_03: You have to figure out what your own convictions are, what your own beliefs are, and not write to anyone else's.
[18:42] SPEAKER_03: And I call it your why.
[18:44] SPEAKER_03: So the first thing I would say is figure out your why.
[18:46] SPEAKER_03: Why are you writing?
[18:47] SPEAKER_03: And at when I first started, I don't think I really had that.
[18:51] SPEAKER_03: But as that crystallized for me, that I wanted to write people who are not seen at the center, I wanted to write them from the margins to the center.
[18:59] SPEAKER_03: As that crystallized for me, it shaped, it reshaped everything.
[19:03] SPEAKER_03: So that would be the first thing I would say is figure out your why.
[19:06] SPEAKER_03: Um, and the second thing I would say is be prepared to fight.
[19:11] SPEAKER_03: You know, because it it is a fight.
[19:13] SPEAKER_03: I think that people see me on like Good Morning America or whatever, you know, on TV and um doing well.
[19:20] SPEAKER_03: And they're like, well, I guess it's pretty easy for Kennedy.
[19:23] SPEAKER_03: No, it's not.
[19:24] SPEAKER_03: I am still navigating systems of white supremacy like anyone else is.
[19:28] SPEAKER_03: And I also often feel like every time I release a new book, I start over.
[19:33] SPEAKER_03: And why?
[19:33] SPEAKER_03: And I have to, I have to prove myself to retailers, to um, to the publishing industry.
[19:40] SPEAKER_03: I'm assuming you don't get the benefit of the doubt.
[19:41] SPEAKER_03: You don't have the luxury.
[19:42] SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, there's no benefit of the doubt.
[19:44] SPEAKER_03: It's gotta be ethics.
[19:46] SPEAKER_03: It does.
[19:46] SPEAKER_03: And it and I say that meaning you would think, okay, so Kennedy hit the New York Times list, Kennedy sold out, you know, in her first week, Kennedy, whatever, that it would be like, oh, well, we should really stop Kennedy.
[19:57] SPEAKER_03: No.
[19:58] SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, we're fighting to get me on the shelves just for visibility.
[20:02] SPEAKER_00: I I wonder with all of the success that you've had, um, and you talk about your why and and having conviction, when you reach your level, I feel like there's a cost you pay.
[20:12] SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is, not a betrayal to yourself, but there's a sacrifice.
[20:15] SPEAKER_00: That all of that doesn't come without without cost.
[20:18] SPEAKER_00: What would you say is the highest price you've paid to get to the level that you're at?
[20:22] SPEAKER_03: The level that you're at.
[20:25] SPEAKER_03: Um it's so weird because people will say, Oh, what do you think like broke you out?
[20:33] SPEAKER_03: Or when do you and I don't feel broke out.
[20:35] SPEAKER_03: Like I don't feel like I is it because of that constant fight?
[20:38] SPEAKER_03: I think I think it's because of the constant fight and the constant swimming upstream, but I think it's also um just keeping my head down and just work and work and work, and it's the next thing, and then it's the next thing.
[20:51] SPEAKER_03: And I'm not a big celebrator.
[20:53] SPEAKER_03: I need to celebrate more.
[20:55] SPEAKER_03: So I don't think I celebrate milestone.
[20:57] SPEAKER_03: We have that religion as well.
[20:58] SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a vote.
[21:00] SPEAKER_03: I'm so bad about it.
[21:02] SPEAKER_03: So and my husband will be like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
[21:04] SPEAKER_03: I remember when I first got, I got my first like option.
[21:07] SPEAKER_03: Like one of a few of my books are in development for television.
[21:10] SPEAKER_03: And the first time it happened, which was with my Skyland series, it's um in development at Peacock.
[21:15] SPEAKER_03: And when it first got option, my husband was like, How are you feeling?
[21:19] SPEAKER_03: And I was like, What about what?
[21:22] SPEAKER_03: And he's like, babe, like this is a big deal.
[21:24] SPEAKER_03: And I couldn't feel it, you know.
[21:26] SPEAKER_03: I couldn't feel that it was a big deal.
[21:28] SPEAKER_03: Part of that was because I didn't realize at the time I was later diagnosed with depression.
[21:33] SPEAKER_03: So there's that.
[21:35] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I felt it more as I got into therapy and you know, started taking medication and all of that.
[21:41] SPEAKER_03: Um, but also I just think, and I'm sure you guys have been in this place at various points in your career when you are like, when there are opportunities and it feels like, whoa, all these opportunities at one time, it feels like it could disappear.
[21:54] SPEAKER_03: So I've just gotta, I just gotta grind.
[21:56] SPEAKER_03: You know, I just I'm gonna take every opportunity that comes.
[21:59] SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna.
[22:00] SPEAKER_03: The door opens, I'm gonna walk through it.
[22:02] SPEAKER_03: You know, that is a rhythm that it's really easy to get into.
[22:06] SPEAKER_03: And I think that when I and I am also a little, not a little bit, I am by nature a workaholic that feels very 1980s, 1990s, like it feels retro to call yourself a workaholic now.
[22:20] SPEAKER_03: Um, but I am, and I I love work and I love my work, like storytelling.
[22:28] SPEAKER_03: I feel like that's one of the things I was put on the earth to do.
[22:30] SPEAKER_03: There is so much purpose that's tied to my career because I feel like I was put on this earth to write stories that will impact and creator in people's hearts, like and create even a moment of transformation.
[22:42] SPEAKER_03: That's what I believe.
[22:44] SPEAKER_03: Like I have a strong sense of purpose.
[22:46] SPEAKER_03: I'm a PK, like I'm a preacher's kid.
[22:49] SPEAKER_03: So you can tell in all the best ways.
[22:51] SPEAKER_03: Yes.
[22:52] SPEAKER_03: You know, so it's like we're always, well, I know I was, I grew up with what's my purpose?
[22:56] SPEAKER_03: Why am I here on the earth?
[22:58] SPEAKER_03: What does God have me here to do?
[22:59] SPEAKER_03: You know, and so I tie purpose to the things that are important to me.
[23:04] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think when you're in that grind, um, the first thing that for me suffers is the relationships that are closest to me.
[23:13] SPEAKER_03: My marriage, my family, my friends, neglecting those who you believe should know what this is about and excuse your negligence and excuse your absence.
[23:25] SPEAKER_03: I think that's the first price.
[23:27] SPEAKER_00: Um I want to get back to the Paramount deal or the Peacock deal in just a second, but I want to talk about that because I remember last year you shared a post about how I don't want to put words in your mouth, but basically you were like burnt out, where it's like, I've been doing so much for so long.
[23:41] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I haven't come up for air.
[23:43] SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
[23:43] SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it really seemed like a lot was going on behind the scenes.
[23:48] SPEAKER_00: Walk me through what was happening and the courage to say it all stops now.
[23:52] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[23:53] SPEAKER_03: Um, my husband is probably laughing.
[23:56] SPEAKER_03: Uh, so what was going on behind the scenes was I have a first look deal with Universal, which um is a big deal.
[24:05] SPEAKER_03: And I have a producer's deal, which is also a big deal, which means first look deal means, you know, Universal Studio Group.
[24:14] SPEAKER_03: Uh, any of my books, they're like, we get those first, we'll develop those with you.
[24:19] SPEAKER_03: But then the producer's deal is okay, we want you to option other authors' work and be an ex be an executive producer on those projects.
[24:28] SPEAKER_03: And so all of that was unfolding behind the scenes.
[24:32] SPEAKER_03: Um, most people just knew about the Skyland series.
[24:35] SPEAKER_03: Everybody just knew about the Skyland series being in development at Peacock, um, which was enough.
[24:42] SPEAKER_03: Um, but then I had this first look deal that happens, and then I have the producer's deal, and then I uh Peacock and Universal asked me to co-write the pilot for it, which is a whole I had never written for television before.
[24:57] SPEAKER_03: Um, so I was optioning other people's books.
[25:00] SPEAKER_03: I have maybe four of my own books in development that we haven't announced yet and that I can't really talk about.
[25:07] SPEAKER_03: And then I'm also trying to finish Score, which just came out, and I it it was so many things.
[25:14] SPEAKER_03: And I couldn't talk about most of it, uh, but but I knew that it was happening, and my husband knew that it was happening, and he could see kind of the seams straining.
[25:26] SPEAKER_03: Um, and he was like, and I still had commitments at for perspective.
[25:33] SPEAKER_03: Two years ago, I was on the road 35 weeks out of the year.
[25:38] SPEAKER_03: It was only 52.
[25:39] SPEAKER_03: I know.
[25:40] SPEAKER_03: I I know so I had been on the road 35 weeks out of the year in 2024.
[25:47] SPEAKER_03: So that was 2025.
[25:48] SPEAKER_03: I had already been on the road, I think, by August, 27 weeks out of the year.
[25:55] SPEAKER_03: Um, and my husband was like looking at what was coming because now it was time for me to start writing the pilot.
[26:01] SPEAKER_03: With I'm writing it with Malcolm D.
[26:03] SPEAKER_03: Lee, who's amazing, you know, uh, best man franchise.
[26:06] SPEAKER_03: He's one of the executive producers for um the show.
[26:10] SPEAKER_03: And they asked us to write it together.
[26:12] SPEAKER_03: So I've never written for television, like literally Googling software, like, how do you do this?
[26:17] SPEAKER_03: And what do I do this?
[26:18] SPEAKER_03: And Malcolm's like, Kennedy, why is it all blue?
[26:20] SPEAKER_03: What is what is happening?
[26:23] SPEAKER_03: I am learning on the fly, right?
[26:26] SPEAKER_03: And my husband was like, it's too much.
[26:29] SPEAKER_03: You know, he's like, and you still have all of this traveling to do for the rest of the year.
[26:33] SPEAKER_03: It's it's too much.
[26:35] SPEAKER_03: And his, it was his suggestion, I think you should cancel your travel for the year.
[26:40] SPEAKER_03: And I said, We had the, I'm gonna be completely honest, we had the biggest fight.
[26:45] SPEAKER_03: Because I tell I tell my joke is I'm like, you're not gonna clip my wings.
[26:50] SPEAKER_03: The trouble's back in the middle of it.
[26:52] SPEAKER_03: I'm a strong woman and you're not gonna clip my wings, you know?
[26:56] SPEAKER_03: And um, he's like, okay, you know, it's just he has learned to just like give me space to process.
[27:02] SPEAKER_03: And as I started thinking about it, um, I realized that he was right, you know, and that um the very opportunities that I would that were in front of me, I was not going to be able to steward well if I honored all of these other things that I had agreed to do.
[27:20] SPEAKER_03: Um, and so once I processed that and came down off my you're not gonna clip my wings, um, and realized that he was right.
[27:29] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I made the announcement, there were a lot of people who were really disappointed.
[27:34] SPEAKER_03: I was disappointed.
[27:35] SPEAKER_03: It was very hard for me to disappoint people.
[27:37] SPEAKER_03: What did that make you?
[27:38] SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like like you were dropping the ball, like you couldn't spin all the plates at the same time?
[27:45] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I I remember saying to my husband, like, I can't disappoint these people.
[27:51] SPEAKER_03: And he goes, These people that you don't know.
[27:54] SPEAKER_03: What about your son?
[27:56] SPEAKER_03: What about me?
[27:57] SPEAKER_03: What about your family?
[27:59] SPEAKER_03: What about yourself?
[28:00] SPEAKER_03: You know, like there are you, there are things you need for yourself that you're not able to create space for if you try to do all of these things at the same time.
[28:11] SPEAKER_03: Um it it was a very difficult decision, but as soon as I made it, I felt so much lighter.
[28:20] SPEAKER_03: I just, as soon as I, as soon as I posted it, I knew it was the right decision because of how much lighter I felt, because of the relief that I felt.
[28:30] SPEAKER_03: Um and I love that so many women messaged me like privately saying, when you did that, I felt like it gave me permission to say, I can't do everything, or I'm gonna cancel this.
[28:42] SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh Lord, I don't want there to be cancellations all over because of what I did.
[28:47] SPEAKER_03: You're like, if you're under contract, do not believe this about please pay your bills, you know?
[28:52] SPEAKER_03: But um, I think that I have been really open about things like that.
[28:57] SPEAKER_03: I've been very open about my mental health.
[28:58] SPEAKER_03: And um, because I feel like these are conversations that we don't get to have as much.
[29:04] SPEAKER_03: Women in general, but most specifically black women.
[29:07] SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I think I I want to model that um in any way that I can, but it was also just my life.
[29:14] SPEAKER_03: It was so much that was happening behind the scenes that I wasn't able to manage if I hadn't made that decision.
[29:21] SPEAKER_01: I feel like I learned that lesson the hard way this year, where I thought I could take more on.
[29:25] SPEAKER_01: I could take more on, like you think you have the capacity, but you don't realize you're pulling it from something else.
[29:30] SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
[29:31] SPEAKER_01: And so then I realized I was borrowing it from my relationship with my husband, I was borrowing it from family time.
[29:35] SPEAKER_01: Yes.
[29:35] SPEAKER_01: And then you look and you realize, like, can you do it?
[29:38] SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
[29:39] SPEAKER_01: Even you know, that question is yet to be answered.
[29:41] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[29:42] SPEAKER_01: But at the expense of what?
[29:43] SPEAKER_01: At the expense of what?
[29:44] SPEAKER_03: And that's it worth it.
[29:45] SPEAKER_03: When you talk about cost, that I think that is the cost that's usually for me.
[29:51] SPEAKER_03: Um, and also understanding, I think there was a second part to that answer that I don't think I got to give you.
[29:58] SPEAKER_03: Understanding that there would be there will be people who just don't like it, who just don't support you, who really um won't agree with you.
[30:10] SPEAKER_03: And you have to become comfortable with um standing standing on the opposite side of people and publicly, because the more visibility, like, oh, it's so great that you have like visibility, but with visibility comes a high, high level of scrutiny, and everyone has an opinion about what you're doing.
[30:33] SPEAKER_03: Um, everyone has, and there are a lot of people who think that you shouldn't get to do it or other people do it better, which they there are, you know, and you just have to kind of tune that out.
[30:44] SPEAKER_03: Um, I mute myself on socials all the time because I'm like, I don't even want to know, I don't even want to know.
[30:50] SPEAKER_03: But I think that's a part, I don't know that it's a cost, but it is a consequence.
[30:54] SPEAKER_00: I do wonder on that note of criticism, there's this saying that I love it's if you live by the compliments, you'll die by the criticism.
[31:01] SPEAKER_00: So kind of staying level-headed.
[31:03] SPEAKER_00: Um, with such a high for you, how do you keep yourself grounded and not like, you know, uh, what is it?
[31:11] SPEAKER_00: Like drink the Kool-Aid or believe the hype and just kind of stay even keeled.
[31:16] SPEAKER_03: You know what?
[31:17] SPEAKER_03: I am the most not drink the Kool-Aid girl you can imagine.
[31:21] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think I and I like it.
[31:24] SPEAKER_03: Like I people will say to me, like, don't you think that you're this or that you have this or that you've done this?
[31:30] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, no, I don't think about it because I don't, I don't want to think about it.
[31:34] SPEAKER_03: I want to write.
[31:35] SPEAKER_03: I want to write.
[31:36] SPEAKER_03: I want to now I want to make good TV.
[31:39] SPEAKER_03: Um, I want to have impact, but I don't ever, my mom just didn't raise me like that.
[31:44] SPEAKER_03: Like to think, um, to think about it, I guess.
[31:49] SPEAKER_03: And I think for me, it helps me stay focused to not think about how other people perceive it, I guess.
[31:56] SPEAKER_03: Because when I say I don't, when people are like, when do you feel like you broke out?
[32:00] SPEAKER_03: I'm like, have I?
[32:01] SPEAKER_03: And that's I know people roll their eyes and they're like, oh gosh.
[32:05] SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, she's on Good Morning America.
[32:06] SPEAKER_03: I know, I know.
[32:07] SPEAKER_03: But I'm like, it's not, I don't know.
[32:10] SPEAKER_03: I like to keep it, I like to for it to feel like it has always felt.
[32:15] SPEAKER_01: But I wonder at the same time, is that the expense of celebrating yourself?
[32:19] SPEAKER_03: Oh, it definitely is.
[32:21] SPEAKER_01: And so are you are you worried that if you celebrate that it would go away?
[32:26] SPEAKER_01: Or what are you concerned about?
[32:27] SPEAKER_03: I think that when I talk about it going away, I think it is because we have as a family navigated some really hard times.
[32:36] SPEAKER_03: And when you have gone without, you know, like in a real desperate way, um, and when you have lived paycheck to paycheck and knowing what it means to lack and to have to depend on your community and not sure where the next is coming from.
[32:56] SPEAKER_03: When you've had to live that way for a while, which we did.
[33:00] SPEAKER_03: My son was diagnosed with autism on a Thursday, and the next day my husband lost his job, and it had huge financial consequences for us because that was 23 years ago, and the landscape of what it looked like to treat autism was very different.
[33:14] SPEAKER_03: There was very little insurance coverage.
[33:16] SPEAKER_03: There, it just took a lot of money, and that was something we all of a sudden did not have, and I was the only one working, and um it was just a lot for our family at various times.
[33:28] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that's kind of the PTSD of this could always, any of it could go away.
[33:35] SPEAKER_03: But I think also I am just um I'm not it's goes back to what I was saying before, why I don't really celebrate a lot.
[33:42] SPEAKER_03: I'm just kind of like nose to the grindstone, and I am now learning that celebration is part of health, you know, that you have to build those pauses in.
[33:54] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I'm learning to do that.
[33:56] SPEAKER_03: It doesn't come naturally to me.
[33:58] SPEAKER_00: I I wonder, because I know it both in your life in terms of the challenges you've had with your son who has autism, um, but also in your books, you highlight a lot of women, whether it's uh, you know, one of them having lupus or another disability, from a less kind of like in the sky, intangible, encouraging word, like tactically, how the heck do you get through when life is just kicking your ass?
[34:23] SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
[34:23] SPEAKER_00: What would you say was the thing, the tool, the skill that you implemented that got you here?
[34:30] SPEAKER_03: I think my faith has been a really big part of it.
[34:33] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that, and when I say my faith, that encompasses my community.
[34:38] SPEAKER_03: You know, building a community of people around me who keep me encouraged and who stepped into gaps, um, whether it was something we needed um financially or materially, but also the kind of support we needed for my son, um, because his need he's very high needs.
[34:59] SPEAKER_03: Um, and there have been people throughout our journey who have stepped in to help us over and over.
[35:04] SPEAKER_03: Like we had that community, we had those friends.
[35:07] SPEAKER_03: Um so I think building a community.
[35:09] SPEAKER_03: I think of relationships as um uh what's the word I'm looking for?
[35:16] SPEAKER_03: Um concentric.
[35:17] SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that is you know, you have your acquaintances and you have like people you know and you have friends, and then you have that like tight, the tightest circle.
[35:25] SPEAKER_03: Um, and vetting that tightest circle and making sure those are people who um who will support you and whom you can support and be there for.
[35:35] SPEAKER_03: Community and my faith, I think, have been probably the the biggest things that have gotten me through.
[35:42] SPEAKER_00: What I'm hearing with community, and I think it's a word especially for black women who are higher high achieving, that just because you can go it alone doesn't mean you should, doesn't mean you should, and vocalizing your needs and asking for help, you know?
[35:54] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[35:56] SPEAKER_03: And I think that um, and also, I mean, I talked about this earlier, but really starting to learn how to take care of my mental health.
[36:06] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that if I hadn't done that, especially within the last five years, I would be sitting here with you right now for sure.
[36:16] SPEAKER_03: Um, I was in a really, really dark place um and I didn't know that it was depression.
[36:22] SPEAKER_03: Um I thought it was writer's block because I couldn't write and because my book was six months late.
[36:27] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I was talking to a writing coach, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the worst writing block I've ever had.
[36:33] SPEAKER_03: And she's like, tell me what's going on, and I'm telling her.
[36:36] SPEAKER_03: And then my husband was also saying, Have you noticed that you don't like get out of bed?
[36:41] SPEAKER_03: You know, like uh, you know, I was having panic attacks, like in secret, there was a lot that was going on.
[36:47] SPEAKER_03: Um, and when I finally got the diagnosis of depression, there was a lot that I had to unlearn, especially coming from kind of church spaces where it's like, just pray.
[36:57] SPEAKER_03: You know, God's gonna take care of it.
[36:59] SPEAKER_03: You don't need a pill.
[36:59] SPEAKER_03: You're not praying hard.
[37:00] SPEAKER_03: You're not praying hard fast.
[37:02] SPEAKER_03: Yes, and you and you don't take medication, like God is your physician.
[37:08] SPEAKER_03: You know, there was a lot that I had to unlearn and deconstruct um from that kind of mentality and really dig into what does it look like to take care of my own mental health?
[37:19] SPEAKER_03: And um, that meant therapy, that meant medication, that meant um doing things like canceling things and creating space for myself to heal and to recharge.
[37:30] SPEAKER_03: Um and I am very high achieving, and it's always been like a point of pride that I could just press through and I could compartmentalize and I could, and I think I lived that way for so long that I didn't realize how much, how damaging it was.
[37:46] SPEAKER_03: And um so I think holding the mirror up at this point.
[37:50] SPEAKER_03: You know, a little too close, you know?
[37:53] SPEAKER_03: So I think that is a skill.
[37:54] SPEAKER_03: Like when I I don't know if it's a skill, but it it saved my life in a lot of ways.
[38:00] SPEAKER_03: And it was, it became, I think, a real like um plank in building my the foundation for what I've been able to do over the last five years.
[38:10] SPEAKER_03: And so it's we just left May.
[38:12] SPEAKER_03: Every May, I do what I call my pill post because May is mental health awareness month, and I put my antidepressant on my tongue and I take a picture to destigmatize that for all of us, but especially for black people and most specifically for black women.
[38:27] SPEAKER_01: Um through your work um and also through your personal page too, you want to make sure to have these conversations, to let people feel seen, to give them a platform.
[38:38] SPEAKER_01: While it's a privilege to be able to tell stories of marginalized people, it's also a great responsibility to give it justice.
[38:45] SPEAKER_01: And I could understand the kind of pressure that might put you under.
[38:49] SPEAKER_01: So, how do you make sure you get it right?
[38:52] SPEAKER_01: Even if you're not part of that community.
[38:54] SPEAKER_03: Yes.
[38:54] SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
[38:55] SPEAKER_03: Um, this is like my favorite thing.
[38:58] SPEAKER_03: I am such a research nerd, which I mean, I'm sure you guys are too, coming from, you know, with your journalism background.
[39:06] SPEAKER_03: But I um I love the research process.
[39:11] SPEAKER_03: It it so many rabbit holes I lose myself in.
[39:14] SPEAKER_03: I will use score, which just my book that just came out as a kind of like a case study.
[39:19] SPEAKER_03: So highly intersectional.
[39:21] SPEAKER_03: This is a character who's black, she's a woman, she's bisexual, she has bipolar disorder.
[39:25] SPEAKER_03: All of those intersections, um, I want to, and all ever at every intersection there's vulnerability, but there's also power.
[39:32] SPEAKER_03: And I want to ascribe dignity to that community, to that identity, to that representation.
[39:37] SPEAKER_03: So the first thing I do is I start interviewing.
[39:40] SPEAKER_03: I make my list of who am I going to interview.
[39:43] SPEAKER_03: And um, before I write a word, um I'm usually interviewing 15 to 20 people because I'm interviewing people who, in this case, uh who have bipolar who have a bipolar diagnosis, people who are adjacent to it, meaning clinicians, psychiatrists, therapists, um partners, spouses, siblings, parents.
[40:01] SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I build out that list of who I'm going to talk to.
[40:05] SPEAKER_03: And that takes up usually about two months or so.
[40:08] SPEAKER_03: I interview um all of those people by Zoom.
[40:11] SPEAKER_03: As I'm interviewing them, I'm asking them for recommendations.
[40:14] SPEAKER_03: What should I be reading?
[40:15] SPEAKER_03: What are the podcasts I should be listening to?
[40:17] SPEAKER_03: Are there medical journals?
[40:18] SPEAKER_03: They start building out my like list after we've done, after I've zoomed all the interviews, then I start reading the books.
[40:25] SPEAKER_03: You know, usually I'm reading five, between five and seven, I think for score, I read nine different books on bipolar disorder and um everything that was adjacent to it in preparation for the writing.
[40:37] SPEAKER_03: And as I'm interviewing and they're giving me this kind of like list of things to read and listen to, I am saying to some of them, would you be interested in being a sensitivity reader once I'm done?
[40:47] SPEAKER_03: And so some of the, of course, they're usually like, yes, because they have a stake in it.
[40:51] SPEAKER_03: They're like, we want you to get this right.
[40:53] SPEAKER_03: We have seen so much sensationalized and harmful representation and culture of bipolar disorder.
[40:59] SPEAKER_03: We we have a stake in you getting it right.
[41:01] SPEAKER_03: Then comes the hard part.
[41:03] SPEAKER_03: I have to actually write the book.
[41:05] SPEAKER_03: That's like my least favorite part, is now I have to actually write the book.
[41:08] SPEAKER_03: Once I've written the book and we've gone through the editorial process a little bit, close to the end, I go back to those people who I said, would you be a sensitivity reader?
[41:18] SPEAKER_03: And I send them the book.
[41:20] SPEAKER_03: And then I say, Is there any language that's offensive?
[41:23] SPEAKER_03: Is there, am I using any language that is, you know, we no longer use that's outdated?
[41:27] SPEAKER_03: Um, I wrote a book that had two autistic twins.
[41:30] SPEAKER_03: Of course, my son is autistic.
[41:31] SPEAKER_03: Am I infantilizing these characters?
[41:33] SPEAKER_03: Like, where are the holes?
[41:34] SPEAKER_03: You know, I you don't hold back, don't think about my feelings.
[41:39] SPEAKER_03: We, you and I are protecting the representation in the story.
[41:42] SPEAKER_03: You are my safety blanket.
[41:45] SPEAKER_03: Um, and so that's how I get it quote unquote right.
[41:49] SPEAKER_03: Um, because after you go through all of that, and I call it the rigor of research, after you go, that is a very rigorous process.
[41:56] SPEAKER_03: And probably 60% of it is just research and reading and learning and immersing yourself in this experience so that you don't get it wrong.
[42:06] SPEAKER_03: And I'm hoping that anything that I've gotten wrong when I'm writing, by the time it gets to six, seven, eight sensitivity readers who know it better than I do, they can help me find those areas where I might have misstepped or missed nuance.
[42:21] SPEAKER_03: Because what I really want is for people who don't usually see themselves to see themselves on the page.
[42:26] SPEAKER_03: And so if you live that experience, you can help me make sure that I capture it with accuracy, with care, with thoughtfulness, and with nuance so that people see themselves on the page that haven't before.
[42:38] SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, given all of that, what character was the most difficult to write that had kind of that was multifaceted in that way?
[42:46] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[42:46] SPEAKER_00: Um, and and you know, humanizing them and not stereotyping them?
[42:50] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think um there's two who come to mind.
[42:54] SPEAKER_03: I'll cheat with two.
[42:56] SPEAKER_03: I have a book called Long Shot, which is probably the most difficult book in my cat whole catalog.
[43:01] SPEAKER_03: Um, it is a survivor story, um, a woman who has survived intimate partner abuse and who goes on to heal and then find love.
[43:09] SPEAKER_03: I remember when I was telling my husband, I was so outraged about um it was a professional athlete and one of his partners, and it was uh the abuse that came out, and everybody was most concerned about is he gonna stay with his team and she's only with him for the money, and you know, all this stuff.
[43:24] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, what about her?
[43:26] SPEAKER_03: Like, why aren't we talking about her?
[43:28] SPEAKER_03: Um and I told my husband, I just most of the books I write come out of female rage and righteous indignation.
[43:34] SPEAKER_03: Like most of the books I write, that's where it starts.
[43:37] SPEAKER_03: Um, because I'm just pissed off about something.
[43:40] SPEAKER_03: And so I said to my husband, I'm gonna write a book about this.
[43:42] SPEAKER_03: And he goes, It's gonna be a romance.
[43:45] SPEAKER_03: It actually is, yes.
[43:46] SPEAKER_03: Um, and when I went to write that book, I found myself um with the same biases that I had heard other people like why does she stay?
[43:56] SPEAKER_03: You know what, you know, and so I closed the book.
[43:58] SPEAKER_03: This is actually the the Book that became the blueprint for how I do all of my books now.
[44:03] SPEAKER_03: Because I closed the laptop and I said, I can't write this character with compassion or sympathy if I have the same internalized biases that the people I want to interrogate about that.
[44:15] SPEAKER_03: So I closed the laptop and I said, Well, what if I just started talking to survivors?
[44:20] SPEAKER_03: So I started interviewing survivors, I started interviewing social workers, I started interviewing psychiatrists and therapists and all of that.
[44:25] SPEAKER_03: That became the blueprint for how I write all of my books now.
[44:28] SPEAKER_03: But I really had to be careful about how I presented her because I also wanted people, everybody's like, oh, they're so weak.
[44:38] SPEAKER_03: When honestly, the women that I interviewed for that book, strongest women I've ever interviewed.
[44:43] SPEAKER_03: I mean, to hear the things that they navigated and survived, and most of the time for their children, um, it was just incredibly impactful for me.
[44:51] SPEAKER_03: And I had to be really careful about how I presented her, what strength looks like in a situation like that.
[44:57] SPEAKER_03: And then I think, I mean, there are others, but I think Verity from this book here, Score, Bipolar Disorder, um, really having to immerse myself in that and to depict that on page in a way that wasn't sensationalized, but that did communicate the kind of free fall that comes in a manic episode.
[45:22] SPEAKER_03: Um, and for so many people, it happens when they're college age and they don't even know that they have that diagnosis, and they don't know, they don't know that they're behaving differently.
[45:34] SPEAKER_03: Everybody else does, but for them, it's just I'm in the midst of this thing.
[45:38] SPEAKER_03: Um, and for some of them, it feels better than anything has ever felt.
[45:42] SPEAKER_03: You know, I think that's the thing that is some people see it as kind of mysterious about it is when you there is this, and I don't want to get too nerdy because I have the tendency to get real nerdy about research, but there is this space called hypomania, which is the sweet spot.
[46:01] SPEAKER_03: You are the brightest person in the room, you have you, everybody loves you, you are charming, you are the most artistic, you are the most gifted person in the world, and the world is just at your fingertips.
[46:14] SPEAKER_03: And it feels like that.
[46:15] SPEAKER_03: And some of that is real.
[46:18] SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, because when you look at a lot of famous artists who now, maybe we didn't have the language then, but Nina Simone, bipolar disorder, you know, Van Gogh, bipolar disorder.
[46:28] SPEAKER_03: Like when you start, and when you look at their bodies of work, often their most productive and most magnificent art came when they were manic.
[46:38] SPEAKER_00: Like their zone of genius.
[46:39] SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, absolutely.
[46:40] SPEAKER_03: And then you see these dark, dark spaces, which is the depression.
[46:45] SPEAKER_03: But there is something valid that can come out of those spaces.
[46:49] SPEAKER_03: And I think depicting the complexity and the layers of bipolar disorder with compassion, ascribing dignity, but then also just being really raw and honest about it, um, really stretched me as a writer.
[47:01] SPEAKER_03: And I just I wanted to get it right.
[47:03] SPEAKER_01: I wonder, um, because you're able to write about communities that you're not a part of, yeah, but you do the research.
[47:10] SPEAKER_01: I have to.
[47:11] SPEAKER_01: So do you think that uh white people could write people people of color?
[47:16] SPEAKER_03: I think I think they can.
[47:19] SPEAKER_03: I think the first question um that a white writer should ask is, is this my is this a story that I can tell and that I should tell?
[47:28] SPEAKER_03: Because I think um a difference is, especially in publishing, um, you are then taking up a space that could be occupied by a black woman.
[47:38] SPEAKER_03: So it's not just about it's not just about the work, it's not just about the work itself.
[47:43] SPEAKER_03: Could I?
[47:44] SPEAKER_00: There are lots of things we could do.
[47:46] SPEAKER_00: Should we?
[47:47] SPEAKER_00: How do you ensure that you're not also taking because it's a fine line between I want to shed light on this, yeah, and I could be taking the spot of someone um who could be speaking of their own, you know, more intimately about their experience.
[47:59] SPEAKER_03: Right, absolutely.
[48:00] SPEAKER_03: I think that um I don't think about that as much with um like a bi with bipolar disorder.
[48:06] SPEAKER_03: I think um, or lupus, you know, I don't think about, oh, there's someone who has lupus who could write this story.
[48:12] SPEAKER_03: Like I'm not thinking about that as much.
[48:14] SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking about the representation.
[48:15] SPEAKER_03: I think the time when I really thought about it was there is a book that I have called all there's a series called All the King's Men.
[48:23] SPEAKER_03: And the heroine is indigenous and her best friend is black.
[48:27] SPEAKER_03: And I'm writing, I'm gonna write both their stories.
[48:29] SPEAKER_03: I really see there's a lot of kinship and a lot of common shared experience, lived experience, circumstance between black women and indigenous women, as far as where we kind of fall in societal hierarchy.
[48:41] SPEAKER_03: And I really wanted to talk about, I really wanted to have discourse about what those common spaces are.
[48:47] SPEAKER_03: So it's kind of like if you think about scandal in how, you know, Olivia Pope had this company.
[48:54] SPEAKER_03: They have this firm that is specifically in the business of electing people whose values reflect their own governors, presidents, senator, presidents, senators.
[49:04] SPEAKER_03: Um, but I'm writing both their stories.
[49:07] SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna write the black woman's story, but I'm also gonna write the indigenous woman's story.
[49:11] SPEAKER_03: And I think um I thought long and hard before I I knew that these two things went together, but hers was coming first.
[49:19] SPEAKER_03: And I thought long and hard about if I'm going to do this, first of all, it's gonna take an incredible amount of research.
[49:27] SPEAKER_03: And it did.
[49:28] SPEAKER_03: The research was more probably than any any research I've ever done.
[49:34] SPEAKER_03: Um, and there was a lot of skepticism too at when I first started, there were a few women, indigenous women I talked to, who were like, we have seen really bad representation of our culture, of our tribe, of whatever.
[49:47] SPEAKER_03: Um, and we don't want to be a part of that if you're gonna do that.
[49:51] SPEAKER_03: And some of them gave just gave me books to read and said they would not talk to me until I had read all of the books.
[49:58] SPEAKER_03: And I guess they didn't know that this is like my cat damp.
[50:03] SPEAKER_03: So I went off and read all the books and came back, and I was like, here I am.
[50:07] SPEAKER_03: And she's this one specific one.
[50:10] SPEAKER_03: She was like, You read the books?
[50:12] SPEAKER_03: I was like, I read the books.
[50:13] SPEAKER_03: And I got some to recommend to you.
[50:15] SPEAKER_03: Just like you read the books, I said, I read the books.
[50:18] SPEAKER_03: Let's talk.
[50:19] SPEAKER_03: And so I interviewed a lot of indigenous women to cover a lot of tribes and a lot of experiences.
[50:26] SPEAKER_03: Um and I have, it's the same process.
[50:30] SPEAKER_03: I had sensitivity readers.
[50:31] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I also told them if at any point you feel like something I am doing is harmful, because I write what I call, I do what I call Hippocratic writing, which means first do no harm.
[50:42] SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's kind of like my own Hippocratic oath.
[50:45] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[50:45] SPEAKER_03: And I said, if anything feels harmful or like this is not space that I should be, that it's not something that is amplifying you, let me know.
[50:53] SPEAKER_03: But this is the step that I think a lot of white writers miss is amplifying that group.
[50:59] SPEAKER_03: Meaning, if I am stepping into an experience that's not my own, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be rigorous about the research.
[51:06] SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna make sure that I get it right.
[51:07] SPEAKER_03: But the last step is to amplify the people who are actually living that experience.
[51:12] SPEAKER_03: Meaning, when I released that book on my website, I had a list of Indigenous writers who actually write romance-centering Indigenous people.
[51:21] SPEAKER_03: And I recommend and I left it up there.
[51:24] SPEAKER_03: And I did a post the day my book came out, I did a post on my social media.
[51:27] SPEAKER_03: Hi guys, these are indigenous writers you should be supporting.
[51:31] SPEAKER_03: Like that is the step that I feel like so many people who step into those other experiences and potentially take up a space that is not theirs miss.
[51:39] SPEAKER_03: It's if you're going to step into that space, and I'm not saying that no one should ever do it.
[51:43] SPEAKER_03: That's not what I'm saying.
[51:44] SPEAKER_03: But part of the responsibility is first of all, the rigor of research to ensure that you're not going to do harm.
[51:50] SPEAKER_03: And then the second part of that formula is amplifying that marginalized community, the people who are actually writing that lived experience and living it.
[51:58] SPEAKER_03: Right.
[51:58] SPEAKER_03: And that's the part that I think is missed a lot of times.
[52:02] SPEAKER_03: And the part that I'm always really careful to do.
[52:05] SPEAKER_00: It's like becoming a means or the instrument to kind of take the spotlight and shift it onto that one.
[52:09] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[52:10] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[52:10] SPEAKER_00: Um, is there a book in you that you've been too scared to write, reluctant, or waiting on the right moment?
[52:19] SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't know that there, that book is there because as soon as something makes me mad, I said, okay, I'm gonna write a like that's just how like the indigenous, you know, um heroin came from.
[52:32] SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you guys remember all the pipeline protest.
[52:35] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[52:35] SPEAKER_03: Like I was watching that on television, a documentary.
[52:37] SPEAKER_03: I got so pissed.
[52:38] SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're still treating people this way, you know.
[52:42] SPEAKER_03: And that's like, it's always something that's happening.
[52:44] SPEAKER_03: There is usually not like uh, I believe in writing fearlessly.
[52:50] SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that is I believe in writing things that frighten me.
[52:55] SPEAKER_03: I believe in writing things that scare me.
[52:58] SPEAKER_03: I believe in writing things that might be unpopular, but still I feel need to be said.
[53:03] SPEAKER_03: Um, so I don't know that that's there.
[53:04] SPEAKER_03: I think that a book that I haven't written yet is um a girl, girl book, you know, and a lot of people want that from me, especially because I just wrote uh Verity and Score.
[53:18] SPEAKER_01: You mean like same-sex couples?
[53:19] SPEAKER_01: Okay.
[53:20] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I have I have characters throughout queer characters throughout much of my much of my work, but they're usually side characters.
[53:28] SPEAKER_03: And I have this basketball series called the Hoop series, and everyone is always asking me, it's women's basketball.
[53:34] SPEAKER_03: It's right there.
[53:35] SPEAKER_03: Could you just write, you know, you know, a woman loves woman.
[53:39] SPEAKER_03: That's what we call it, WLW and romance.
[53:42] SPEAKER_03: We call it WLW, a woman loves woman sports romance.
[53:46] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I'm down for that.
[53:48] SPEAKER_03: So at the right time, I would do that.
[53:51] SPEAKER_03: But right now, my writing schedule is planned like for years in advance.
[53:58] SPEAKER_01: She said she's booked.
[54:01] SPEAKER_03: Literally, I'm under contract.
[54:04] SPEAKER_03: This one and this one and this one, and then I have to write this show, and then I have to write this show.
[54:09] SPEAKER_00: Setting these boundaries.
[54:11] SPEAKER_00: Speaking of the shows, real quick.
[54:12] SPEAKER_00: Any tea.
[54:13] SPEAKER_00: Any tea that you can spill on these shows coming down the pipeline.
[54:18] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[54:19] SPEAKER_03: Um, well, I don't know that it's tea because it was in variety, so it's not much tea.
[54:25] SPEAKER_03: Um, but I am really excited about the first look deal with Universal.
[54:28] SPEAKER_03: Um, Malcolm and I have been actively co-writing the pilot for the Skyland series for months.
[54:35] SPEAKER_03: Um, we're deep in that process.
[54:38] SPEAKER_03: We are building that, you know, as executive producers.
[54:41] SPEAKER_03: Um, and some people may know um it's like a strong team of executive producers.
[54:45] SPEAKER_03: John Legend is one.
[54:47] SPEAKER_03: Um, obviously, Malcolm Dealey and his team, Deborah Martin Chase.
[54:50] SPEAKER_03: Strong, strong group of producers.
[54:52] SPEAKER_03: And um, then of course, Universal, Peacock.
[54:55] SPEAKER_03: So it's such a strong team, and um, we're working really hard to get us to the green light.
[55:01] SPEAKER_03: We're ready to go, we're, you know, starting production kind of thing.
[55:05] SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think we're really close on that.
[55:08] SPEAKER_03: Um uh T, I don't know that it's big T, uh, because I've mentioned it here and there, but um, this series, Real and Score, has also been optioned for television.
[55:20] SPEAKER_03: Um, they won't allow me to say who or any other details, but they did say that I could say that.
[55:25] SPEAKER_03: So, and I will say from a producer's standpoint, I have optioned three author's books that we are now developing for television.
[55:34] SPEAKER_03: Um, so I'm, you know, I have seven projects in various stages of development right now, and it feels a little overwhelming, you know.
[55:44] SPEAKER_03: And you with, I mean, with these things, like optioning is just the first stage, and most things that are option never even make it all the way.
[55:52] SPEAKER_03: So um I'm holding them like with prayer hands, you know, and just doing the work and the learning that I hope will, you know, make the most of these opportunities.
[56:03] SPEAKER_03: But I I would say that probably right now my workload is like 70-30, meaning like 70% of what I'm doing right now is television, and 30% is probably books.
[56:14] SPEAKER_03: That's that's what it probably looks like right now.
[56:18] SPEAKER_01: Um before I let you go.
[56:20] SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
[56:21] SPEAKER_01: Um, I do want to know because you've done a lot of research, and we're talking about raising standards, we're talking about how women should be loved and setting that example.
[56:31] SPEAKER_01: What are some of the key commandments?
[56:34] SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
[56:35] SPEAKER_01: Thou shalt not text first.
[56:37] SPEAKER_01: And you've also been married 29 years.
[56:40] SPEAKER_01: 29 years.
[56:40] SPEAKER_01: 29 years.
[56:41] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[56:42] SPEAKER_03: So I don't have a lot of the like, none of my commandments are probably gonna have to do anything with abs.
[56:47] SPEAKER_03: You know, because I've been married, we predate the apps.
[56:51] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think um, I don't know that I will um uh word them as commandments, but I would say uh trust is key.
[57:03] SPEAKER_03: Um to uh never um never make yourself completely vulnerable and completely open to someone you're not sure you can trust.
[57:14] SPEAKER_03: Um that's a lot of power to give someone who may not have your best interest at heart and who may not have your heart in mind.
[57:22] SPEAKER_03: Um I would also say reciprocity.
[57:25] SPEAKER_03: And what I mean by that is my husband and I, throughout the years, our son's needs were really high.
[57:31] SPEAKER_03: And there were times when my husband would stay home and he would be the one who was like therapy, school, swim lessons, music therapy.
[57:39] SPEAKER_03: You know, it's a whole like that uh path is a full-time job.
[57:46] SPEAKER_03: You know, it it really is.
[57:48] SPEAKER_03: Um, and there were times when he did that while I was working, and then there were times when I would do that while he was working.
[57:54] SPEAKER_03: And I think we have not allowed heteronormative ideas about what our household should look like and what our responsibilities are.
[58:05] SPEAKER_03: We haven't compared ourselves to other people in that way to shape our home and our life together into something that doesn't work for us.
[58:14] SPEAKER_03: So, but there's such a reciprocity between us.
[58:17] SPEAKER_03: I want what's best for him.
[58:18] SPEAKER_03: He truly wants what's best for me.
[58:20] SPEAKER_03: And I think um I think men can find women who want absolutely what's best for them.
[58:26] SPEAKER_03: I think sometimes it's harder to find a man who is so secure to say, I really want to see you sore.
[58:33] SPEAKER_03: And I really want to be like up under them wings, you know?
[58:37] SPEAKER_03: So I think reciprocity.
[58:39] SPEAKER_03: Um and I think if I have one commandment, it's never settle.
[58:43] SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that, and I've talked about this before, I think that so often in culture, we put so much emphasis on, and this sounds ironic coming from a romance reader, we put so much emphasis on romantic love that it makes women sometimes feel like when they're single, they're waiting for something.
[59:01] SPEAKER_03: Like I'm waiting for that man or that partner.
[59:04] SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, girl, build a life for yourself.
[59:07] SPEAKER_03: You know, build a life that is um your family, your found family, the friends, community, like whatever that is, build a life.
[59:15] SPEAKER_03: I call it like being the architect of your own existence.
[59:18] SPEAKER_03: Build a life that you love and you're excited about and you're not waiting for anything.
[59:22] SPEAKER_03: And when that partner comes, invite him or her into that.
[59:26] SPEAKER_03: But you're not waiting to build anything.
[59:28] SPEAKER_03: And I think that sense of waiting sometimes causes us to settle.
[59:33] SPEAKER_03: That sense of I'm waiting for the right person, I'm waiting for the romance, I'm waiting for like lightning to strike.
[59:39] SPEAKER_03: So I'm in a holding pattern.
[59:40] SPEAKER_03: Don't, you ain't holding nothing.
[59:42] SPEAKER_03: Like build a life, you know, and also figure out who you are, figure out what you want, figure out what is what feels like a dream, what feels like a goal, what feels like your ambitions before someone else comes in and you shape it around that person.
[59:57] SPEAKER_03: Shape yourself, mold yourself.
[1:00:00] SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, and that's not to say that you're not open to um romantic love.
[1:00:05] SPEAKER_03: Obviously, I am.
[1:00:06] SPEAKER_03: I've been married for 29 years with the same guy, you know, he's my best friend.
[1:00:11] SPEAKER_03: So I am a fan, you know, but I think that a lot of times when I look around and I see women who are waiting and who have been told that, you know, uh being single is this holding pattern, is this waiting space?
[1:00:27] SPEAKER_03: Um, sometimes it discourages us from like building a life that is irrespective of anyone else coming in or making it something.
[1:00:35] SPEAKER_03: We're making our own life.
[1:00:37] SPEAKER_03: And that's not to bash men, it's just like to celebrate women and what we're capable of on our own.
[1:00:42] SPEAKER_00: You know, I knew we were gonna talk about a book.
[1:00:44] SPEAKER_00: I didn't know we were gonna go to church.
[1:00:46] SPEAKER_00: But I'll take it.
[1:00:47] SPEAKER_00: Amen.
[1:00:47] SPEAKER_00: Amen.
[1:00:50] SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Kennedy, for joining us on this podcast.
[1:00:53] SPEAKER_00: This, I mean, you never disappoint.
[1:00:56] SPEAKER_00: It's been such an honor.
[1:00:57] SPEAKER_00: It has been my honor to continued success.
[1:00:59] SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
[1:01:00] SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
[1:01:01] SPEAKER_00: Alrighty, and thank you, of course, for joining us.
[1:01:03] SPEAKER_00: We'll see you on the next one.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_00: Make sure you subscribe on YouTube off the record and on Instagram at Off the Record Podcast.
[1:01:09] SPEAKER_00: And never settle.
[1:01:10] SPEAKER_03: Never settle.
[1:01:12] SPEAKER_00: See y'all.

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