# Seagull Management: Steve Monroe on Leadership, Empathy, and Transforming Workplace Culture

An episode of ["Mindset2Results" with Elena Apalkova](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1739157956), 29 Aug 2026, 56 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/media.podcastai.com/episodes/hpGElrQldtj.mp3?u=1788012901

Elena Apalkova and Steve Monroe explore Seagull management and its impact on organizations. Steve discusses its origins, characteristics, and psychological effects on employees, emphasizing the hidden costs of poor leadership. They highlight the importance of valuing employees and emotional constraints in business growth. The episode covers short-term fixes vs. long-term strategies, managing up authentically, and the role of curiosity and mindfulness in leadership. Steve contrasts accidental managers with intentional leaders, underscoring the transformative power of intentional leadership. The episode ends with gratitude and invites listener engagement. (0:00) Introduction and guest: The Seagull manager with Steve Monroe (1:06) Steve's passion and motivation (2:06) Definition and origin of Seagull management (4:02) Key characteristics of Seagull management (7:05) Psychological impacts on employees (11:15) Hidden psychological costs of bad leadership (14:49) Treating employees as the most important person (22:40) Emotional constraints and business growth (23:04) Organizational systems and emotional ceilings (27:51) Short-term fixes vs. long-term growth (29:41) Managing up without losing yourself (39:23) Tackling problems with curiosity (40:29) Developing calmness and mindfulness (44:13) Compassion and empathy in leadership (48:07) Accidental manager vs. intentional leader (53:34) Transforming culture through intentional leadership (54:23) Closing thoughts and gratitude (55:18) Encouragement for listener engagement (55:54) Contact information and subscription reminder

## Transcript

[0:02] Hello.
[0:03] Hello.
[0:03] Welcome to mindset two results.
[0:06] Today, we will speak about very interesting topic, the Seagull manager.
[0:12] How bad leadership quietly destroys performance culture and grow.
[0:18] Today, I am joined by Steve Monroe, a leadership and performance expert with twenty
[0:25] years of experience developing leaders and transforming work place performance.
[0:31] With a PhD in training and performance improvement and two books on leadership
[0:37] dynamics, Steve is on a mission to end what he calls Seagull management and help leaders stop
[0:46] managing by accident and start leading with intention.
[0:50] Hi, Steve.
[0:52] How are you?
[0:55] Great.
[0:56] Thank you so much for being guest on our podcast today.
[1:00] Very good.
[1:01] I appreciate, being here, and, I look forward to our conversation.
[1:06] You're most welcome.
[1:07] Before we start, I would like you to share what makes you so passionate to be today on our
[1:12] podcast and share your knowledge and expertise with our audience.
[1:18] I'm I'm very passionate about, the work that I'm doing now in regards to Siegel management.
[1:25] It, it comes from a a long history of experiencing my, as an employee, working for
[1:35] great managers who have, what I would call a Siegel management behavior problem.
[1:43] And, it's always been my contention that this is something that needed to be fixed.
[1:48] And so I, set out on a mission at this point in my life to pursue that and find out, you know,
[1:55] through research and through, teaching how to help managers move away from that behavior to
[2:03] more intentional style of leadership.
[2:06] Yeah.
[2:07] Thank you so much.
[2:07] And, definitely, it is very appreciated when you share this knowledge with people and our
[2:15] audience today.
[2:16] So for for those people who are maybe not familiar with this term, seagull management,
[2:24] could you please tell shortly what it means?
[2:29] I can.
[2:30] You know, it's it's actually an old term.
[2:33] I was in the navy back, US United States Navy back in nineteen eighties, and I remember,
[2:40] hearing the term, Kenneth Blanchard, had coined the term seagull management.
[2:47] I heard that, and I thought it was just hilarious.
[2:49] You know?
[2:49] Of course, I was in the navy, the navy seagulls, you know, so that made it even more
[2:53] funny.
[2:55] It was funny until it wasn't, because I I soon learned that Siegel managers have a very bad
[3:01] habit.
[3:03] These are managers, they can be good managers, they can be mad managers, but, these are
[3:08] managers that, you'll be in the middle of your work, and the tasks that given to you by that
[3:14] manager, that manager will swoop in, poop all over everything, yell, screech, scream, want
[3:23] things fixed, and then fly away.
[3:26] And that's how they coined the term seagull manager because that's much how it's you can
[3:30] imagine a seagull, swooping in, do it doing much the same thing.
[3:36] So, it it's funny, but it's not because, as I said, over the years, I've seen a lot of that.
[3:44] Yeah.
[3:45] So, I understand.
[3:46] I live in Brighton in England, and we have so many seagulls here.
[3:52] So I Right.
[3:54] Imagine that manager with that kind of behavioral threats.
[4:00] Right.
[4:01] Yep.
[4:01] Yep.
[4:02] Yes.
[4:02] You use this phrase, seagull management a lot, right, to describe right?
[4:07] Pleaders, as you said, who fly in, make a lot of noise, dump on everyone, and disappear.
[4:13] What does Segal management actually look like inside an organization, and why do so many
[4:19] intelligent, experienced leaders fail to recognize that they are doing this?
[4:28] And, again, as I said, this is a behavior that both a good manager and a poor manager can
[4:34] exhibit.
[4:36] And you'll you'll you'll find both.
[4:38] And and in my talking with many, many employees, whenever I describe Siegel
[4:43] Management, they agree, oh, yeah.
[4:45] I had that guy or I had that, woman.
[4:48] And so to what it looks like in an organization, the I can give you an example.
[4:56] I had an an leader of an organization that was a a excellent leader, personable and all the
[5:07] rest, but he truly believed that to swoop, to yell, and to flee, that was his superpower.
[5:18] He thought that was the best way to run the organization.
[5:21] Now at the time this was a a number of years ago at, that when we had that but I can
[5:28] remember a lot of employees complaining because they can hear when he swoops yells and flees
[5:35] because they'll be down the hall and they can hear him in the conference room, making a lot
[5:40] of noise.
[5:41] And, it was but but he truly believed that was his superpower.
[5:45] You know?
[5:46] And I I I dearly wish I was on this, you know, path, because back then, I could have talked to
[5:54] him about it.
[5:56] And then and even then, I did have few conversations with him, and he was just
[6:01] convinced that, it was it was what made things work when in reality, it destroyed leadership.
[6:07] It even created, because he did it so much that it created a a sort of a a pagmillian effect,
[6:16] which is basically learned helplessness.
[6:19] And so it was almost like he would do the work for the employees because he would be so
[6:25] exasperated that they're not doing it fast enough, not doing it as good as he would like
[6:29] it to be done, that it got to the point to where, well, why should we do it?
[6:34] He's just gonna fix it or do it himself.
[6:35] You know?
[6:36] We got we we got incoming Seagull managers gonna take care of this for us.
[6:41] And it's sad because that happens a lot.
[6:43] I and he's not the only manager I had that that had that behavior over the years, and much the
[6:50] same thing would happen.
[6:52] So Yeah.
[6:53] Yeah.
[6:54] Mhmm.
[6:54] Yeah.
[6:55] So the person who you described, it shows that he had very strong control or character.
[7:03] Yes.
[7:03] Like, we call it also saboteur.
[7:05] Like, this is, like, subconscious programs which make person not to trust other people,
[7:12] right, and to check them always.
[7:15] And, as you said, finally, just do it themselves because they don't believe that
[7:19] other people can do it.
[7:21] Right?
[7:21] And this is what creates so much negative atmosphere.
[7:25] And, also, it is a big pressure on themselves because this is what they create extra load for
[7:31] themselves instead of trusting people and giving them space and guiding them.
[7:36] This is how it ends.
[7:38] Right?
[7:38] And this is shows that people not aware about of those subconscious programs which are
[7:47] negatively impacting their performance and relationship.
[7:52] Absolutely.
[7:53] I mean, you're you're so spot on because it really is about control and fear, for them.
[7:59] From their perspective, they they they feel the need to be in control, and they have a fear
[8:06] that if it gets out of control, then it's gonna fall apart and make them look bad.
[8:12] And that truly is the driver for many Siegel managers is that need to be in control and the
[8:19] fear of losing that control.
[8:21] And so, as you said, yeah, they try to take over, and they they destroy the organization
[8:28] from within.
[8:29] It's basically what happens.
[8:31] And and it's sad.
[8:32] It's sad.
[8:33] This should never happen.
[8:34] Yes.
[8:34] Because from, psychological and the mindset perceptive perception, everything what is done
[8:42] from fear will create more situations which will cause fear.
[8:48] Right?
[8:48] Because Yeah.
[8:49] Never decisions or anything important should be taken from place of fear or doubt.
[8:56] Right?
[8:56] Because it is better not to take decision when you have fear because it will put you in the
[9:02] worst situation.
[9:03] Right?
[9:03] And, of course, it will have negative impact.
[9:06] And some people, as you described, like, character of that manager, also, he, might
[9:12] believe that people have to be afraid of him.
[9:15] So if they're afraid, it means that they will respect, and then they will do better.
[9:20] But, it has opposite effect.
[9:23] Right?
[9:23] Because when people are not trusted, they will not do their best because they if the the it
[9:30] doesn't matter.
[9:31] They do better or they do just average.
[9:36] They know that the result will be the same.
[9:38] So why they will will put, more effort and and, spend more energy if they know already, which,
[9:46] outcome will to expect?
[9:49] Exactly.
[9:50] Exactly.
[9:50] Yeah.
[9:51] Yeah.
[9:51] And and that ruling by fear, it's it's a destroyer as well.
[9:55] You know?
[9:56] I I had a manager one time.
[9:58] I was a stage manager, for a a local university, and, this particular manager led by
[10:07] fear.
[10:08] He was a single manager, but it it what you just mentioned just reminded me of him comes
[10:14] scrolling in.
[10:16] And and, I don't even remember what the problem was, but I was on, the board running a show.
[10:22] And he came in, and he just started screaming at me about something.
[10:28] And I can remember sitting there, and I just looked at him.
[10:32] I just and and you might say that look I probably had on my face was pity.
[10:37] I started to think, and what a miserable little man you are.
[10:40] I just don't understand why you think this is a good way to lead.
[10:45] You know?
[10:45] And and everybody else in the room, of course, these are all young folks.
[10:50] I was older at the time compared to the students.
[10:53] And they look, how could you sit there and let him do that?
[10:56] It's like, it's just that's kids, that's not how it's done.
[11:00] This is this is not how you lead people.
[11:03] So leading by fear, legal management style of behavior, it's just not it doesn't work.
[11:10] It doesn't make anything better.
[11:13] It really doesn't.
[11:15] Yeah.
[11:15] So true.
[11:17] Let's speak now, Steve, about hidden psychological cost of bad leadership.
[11:23] A leader may believe they are simply being demanding or holding people accountable while
[11:29] their team experiences fear, frustration, or disengagement.
[11:35] What happens psychologically to people when they repeatedly work under this kind of
[11:42] leadership, and how does it eventually show up in performance, retention, and business
[11:48] results?
[11:51] You know that old saying that, you know, oh, it's it's going out of my head already, that,
[11:59] you know, people don't leave bad companies.
[12:01] They leave bad managers.
[12:03] And that's true, and I've seen it.
[12:08] I personally haven't done that, but I do re know that we have, managers who perform this
[12:19] type of, behavior, create both you know, I spoke about it a little bit earlier that that
[12:25] learned helplessness because they're always doing for them.
[12:29] What that does for the individual, for the employee is they feel why bother?
[12:36] What am I here for?
[12:37] You know?
[12:38] Okay.
[12:38] So maybe there's gonna be a few of them that'll be like, hey.
[12:40] Great.
[12:41] You do all my work, and, I get paid.
[12:43] Hey.
[12:43] Bonus.
[12:44] I'm good.
[12:45] But that's not always the case.
[12:47] I mean, there's many of us, and I am one, who believe my work should matter.
[12:53] And when managers demonstrate this type of behavior, that it causes the employee to feel
[13:01] like they don't matter, that they have no reason to be here, and so they leave.
[13:06] They they they they give up and and don't even wanna try.
[13:11] And, you know, they know the other the other part too is, and I've seen this, is that
[13:17] employees, they they're not growing in their work.
[13:23] They they have they have a desire to grow.
[13:25] They have a desire to become more than where they are today.
[13:31] And when a manager is not helping them grow but causing them to become stunted in their growth
[13:38] and stuck where they are in their job because there's there's no there's no growth happening,
[13:44] they're gonna go somewhere else.
[13:46] They have to.
[13:48] They they they they're they're not gonna be able to do anything where they are at now.
[13:52] And so it's just that style of leadership is just it doesn't help them get where they need
[13:58] to go.
[13:58] There there's no future in that type of, atmosphere to live in that type of atmosphere.
[14:05] Yes.
[14:06] Yes, sir.
[14:07] So true.
[14:08] And there is a very important principle that who is the most important person in the world?
[14:17] It is you.
[14:19] Right?
[14:19] Yep.
[14:20] Exactly.
[14:21] Exactly.
[14:21] They are the most important person in the world.
[14:24] Right?
[14:24] So
[14:25] Truly.
[14:26] Yes.
[14:27] And, the the best principle which I learned from my mentor, who was Bob Proctor, I learned
[14:34] this, and it is so valuable principle.
[14:37] And that's why I just want to share the contents of what we discussed that live like,
[14:42] meet every person and deal with him every time as he's the most important person for you.
[14:49] And he
[14:50] and leave him always with the impression of increase.
[14:54] Yes.
[14:54] Like, give him something that he will feel better than he felt before he met you.
[15:01] That's right.
[15:02] That's right.
[15:02] That's right.
[15:03] And this is such a big difference with what you just explained.
[15:07] Right?
[15:08] Like, many leaders don't see people.
[15:11] They just see the targets.
[15:13] They see the numbers, and they don't see people behind that.
[15:17] Right?
[15:17] Like, people who do the main work.
[15:19] Right?
[15:19] Like, who company should appreciate for everything what they have because company is
[15:25] not furniture.
[15:26] It is not tables and, like, desks and chairs.
[15:30] Companies are people.
[15:31] Right?
[15:31] And when people are uplifted, when people are encouraged, and when they are, they when they
[15:37] know that they're important and that they do something very important, doesn't matter what
[15:42] they do.
[15:43] But that part is, like, their job is part of something big important picture.
[15:49] This is what will make people to do their best, and, of course, when they are trusted.
[15:54] Yes.
[15:55] When people are trusted, it gives them that feeling of responsibility because they want to
[16:00] do and show that they are valuable people to be trusted, right, and then want to keep the
[16:06] trust.
[16:06] And these are the, like, inside, like, some engines, I would say, or drivers that they can
[16:16] understand and use to to help people grow and encourage them.
[16:21] And this is how the company will grow, not vice versa.
[16:25] Right.
[16:25] Right.
[16:26] Yeah.
[16:26] And that's why it's so important that we help these managers stop this poor behavior and get
[16:33] to a place where if you're truly gonna grow your people, it begins with making sure that
[16:39] one, they understand their expectations, that that the employee knows what's expected of them
[16:45] in terms of long term, you know, doing the work as well as long term growth, that, we give them
[16:51] the appropriate tools, that they have the tools necessary to both do their work and to grow
[16:57] within the company, and, you know, in sign incentivize them in a way that, you know, they
[17:03] become more intrinsically motivated to do the work, to the best of their ability because they
[17:12] want the organization to be successful.
[17:15] You know, the employee then becomes, you know, a a sense or a feeling of being the hero in the
[17:21] story where, you know, they can step up and deliver for the organization, which then makes
[17:26] the organization successful.
[17:28] So if if you can remove that seagull management, behavior, replace it with a more
[17:35] intentional style of leadership that, also allows them to grow.
[17:41] I'm also a s l two facilitator for Blanchard, where the idea is you grow each individual on
[17:48] your team and treat them each as an individual person, not just treating the team, but each as
[17:55] individuals.
[17:57] And and so as they each grow and become stronger, they became a become a greater part
[18:02] of the organization and make it more successful and do the work.
[18:05] And then the manager doesn't have to react badly.
[18:08] The the manager can then you know, because they're always in the know of what's going on,
[18:13] what's happening, how they're being successful, for each individual.
[18:17] The manager can step back and go, alright.
[18:20] So you guys got this.
[18:22] Let me go take care of some bigger things.
[18:23] Let me see if we can do some bigger things that will make us even more successful.
[18:28] So it's it's a constraint.
[18:30] Siegel management truly is a constraint on the organization.
[18:34] It costs them money.
[18:36] It costs them it cost it causes accidents, and and that costs even more money.
[18:42] It causes the the the employees to constantly leave, and you keep having to hire.
[18:48] And so now you got all this going on in a very continued, basis.
[18:53] And so that's a kind of constraint that just costs an organization and can destroy an
[18:58] organization.
[18:59] So it's important that these organizations realize this and and turn to a more intentional
[19:06] style leadership where, you know, instead of the instead of the swoop and poop and and,
[19:12] flee, how about just pause, take a minute?
[19:17] You know?
[19:17] It it's like that old commercial.
[19:19] You take a Snickers bar and you you munch on the Snickers and you think, okay.
[19:23] That's not working out.
[19:25] So what do I need to do?
[19:26] So now you can clarify what's going on.
[19:29] What's what why do you feel like you need to jump in and and fix this?
[19:35] And rather than you doing it, you get with your team and you clarify the situation what's going
[19:39] on.
[19:40] Then, you know, you you come up with new plan for how you can address the issue and fix it as
[19:45] a team.
[19:46] That then the employees learn how to fix something that gets broke, and so they can do
[19:52] it themselves in the future or avoid it happening at all.
[19:57] It's a process, and and and we we've got to make sure that they understand that.
[20:03] And so that's that's why I'm doing this.
[20:05] I it's why I'm like, folks.
[20:07] And and seagull management, there's many other words and terms you can use for that.
[20:12] You really can't.
[20:13] But seagull management gets their attention because it's one of those things kinda like,
[20:18] wait.
[20:18] What?
[20:18] What what does that mean?
[20:21] And and so when you describe it, it's even funnier.
[20:24] But then it's not funny because then when you get into the meat of the thing, then you truly
[20:29] understand, ah, this is a problem.
[20:32] Yeah.
[20:32] This is a problem that's not gonna fix anything.
[20:35] So what do we do instead?
[20:37] And that's when we move to a more intent intentional leadership style, and move away
[20:43] from the Seagull management.
[20:44] And conversations like this have to happen for that awareness to become, something that they
[20:52] understand and know is not right.
[20:55] So we need to have more conversations like this to get that message out that we can do better.
[21:02] So
[21:02] Yeah.
[21:03] Thank you, Steve, for initiating such conversations and being amazing guest today
[21:08] because this is how, this happens.
[21:11] Yes.
[21:11] When we speak and discuss and then we let people know.
[21:16] And, I think that also it is time for HR to look not on CV only, right, but really to
[21:23] look Right.
[21:24] Personality.
[21:25] Like, because if the person has skills, but he's toxic and has this, saboteurs, which we
[21:31] discussed, like, like, control or high hyperachiever or maybe he hypervigilant, which
[21:37] is expecting something bad will happen, and he always is in that fear.
[21:42] And he creates all this environment, like atmosphere, Right?
[21:45] The people will be stressed, this will very negatively impact the whole company.
[21:51] Right?
[21:51] And it will cause many losses.
[21:54] So it is not the skills, but really the qualities and the leadership.
[21:59] Right?
[22:00] Like, leadership was how the person can face different situations, how he can control
[22:08] himself when it comes to challenging, how he really respects and loves people, how he can
[22:12] uplift people and bring their best on the surface.
[22:17] Yes.
[22:17] Yes.
[22:18] Absolutely.
[22:19] And so more conversation.
[22:21] We we need to talk about this more.
[22:23] I appreciate that.
[22:25] Yes.
[22:25] Of course.
[22:26] And this is what we are here for.
[22:28] So, let's speak, about invisible ceiling on business growth.
[22:34] And, you talk about emotional constraints as an invisible ceiling on business growth.
[22:40] This is fascinating because companies often look for problems in strategy, sales, systems,
[22:48] or employee capability.
[22:50] What emotional constraints do you see most frequently in leaders, and how can CEO's
[22:56] unresolved patterns become a constraint on entire organization?
[23:04] You know, the the difficulty for a lot of managers when it comes to looking within in
[23:12] terms of how to fix or remove constraints is they have a tendency to just look at where the
[23:20] exists.
[23:23] Rumbler, Gary Rumbler, was a, a very much a systems performance improvement specialist,
[23:32] and, he often talked about this.
[23:35] The organization will look at an employee and say, okay.
[23:38] We have a constraint here.
[23:40] We have an issue with an employee who is making too many mistakes.
[23:45] And so we pull them out, we train them up, and we put them back expecting there to be a fix,
[23:53] but there's still a problem.
[23:56] And and what they're failing to do is they're failing to look at the system as a whole.
[24:02] So with an employee, the employee has inputs.
[24:06] Whatever is coming to them, they're gonna take, they're gonna work with it, and they're gonna
[24:11] provide an output.
[24:13] And then there's gonna be a consequence, and then there's gonna be feedback whether or not
[24:17] it didn't work.
[24:18] And what what Rumler is suggesting, and I agree, I've seen this, is that we need to stop
[24:24] looking at just the the the person.
[24:27] We need to start looking at is it the organization that's creating this problem?
[24:33] Is it the system itself?
[24:35] The inputs, the outputs, that's that's causing the issue long before we get to the employee.
[24:43] And so, you know, it it it just really depends on how the organization's approach is to
[24:49] solving the constraints that exist and making decisions on what to do with that.
[24:55] And there's there's a number of ways to do that, but in terms of behavioral and emotional
[25:02] constraints, I I think they they they want to do the most expedient, fastest thing they can
[25:11] get done that they can feel that sense of, okay.
[25:14] There's control here.
[25:15] I've got control of this situation and, whatever is gonna be the fastest.
[25:21] They don't look for the long game.
[25:23] You know?
[25:24] And and then they wonder they do, for example, training.
[25:28] That's that's a big thing.
[25:29] You know, I worked in HR.
[25:30] I worked, with training.
[25:33] They start throwing training at things, thinking that, like, as I mentioned, the
[25:37] employee is gonna be the fix.
[25:40] That costs money, and then you do that training.
[25:45] And then you suggest, as I did, we need to do follow-up to that training.
[25:51] Were they successful?
[25:53] One time okay.
[25:54] Here we go.
[25:56] One time, I did, this training program and ran for a year.
[26:02] And then I said, what we should do now is look at, and it was on how to do, work with certain
[26:08] products.
[26:09] And I said, okay. In
[26:10] In terms of sales, they made, they sold this much of the products back, you know, a year
[26:17] before, and I wanted to do an ROI and look at, you know, how are they doing after the class in
[26:23] terms of the ROI?
[26:25] Did Did we make more money as a result of all that money we spent on training these
[26:29] individuals?
[26:31] And they came back to me, oh, yeah.
[26:34] That sounds good.
[26:35] That sounds good.
[26:36] I said, okay.
[26:36] Great.
[26:37] All you need to do is give me the information, and I will provide, you know, the the ROI.
[26:44] Weeks go by, and I finally come back to him.
[26:48] I say, so, you know, we talked about doing an ROI here.
[26:52] We wanna make sure that the work that was done, the money that was spent, achieved the goal
[26:58] that we had set.
[26:59] And they're like, yeah.
[27:01] Well, you know, that's too hard.
[27:05] We don't we don't wanna have to take the time to do that.
[27:08] You know, it's what's done is done.
[27:10] You know?
[27:10] If it worked, great.
[27:13] That's that's the mindset a lot of times with with with leaders is they wanna do whatever's
[27:20] the most expedient, whatever's the fastest, and move on to the next thing rather than focus on
[27:27] what does it mean to the people and is the work that we're putting into growing these people
[27:33] working?
[27:34] You know?
[27:36] It's it's my number.
[27:38] You know?
[27:38] And and, unfortunately, I've seen that a lot over the past forty five plus years of my work
[27:43] life that they that that that they that their responses are are so shallow.
[27:51] You know?
[27:51] They they don't get into the meat of the thing.
[27:53] They just they just wanna do whatever is going to check off the list and move on to the next
[27:59] thing.
[27:59] And what that does emotionally to the employee is does it matter?
[28:05] Does it matter?
[28:07] Really?
[28:08] Should I even care?
[28:10] So
[28:11] yeah.
[28:12] Yes.
[28:12] Unfortunately, I saw that a lot.
[28:14] Unfortunately, yes.
[28:16] Because if leaders don't care, all people will not care.
[28:20] Right?
[28:20] Because leaders are there to have the big vision, right, and help other people to see
[28:27] that big vision.
[28:28] But if people, like, who are leaders, they don't trust themselves and they don't believe
[28:32] in their capabilities and also in their team capabilities that they can do something bigger
[28:37] that already is known, and they just think about maybe 10% increase or 20% increase and
[28:43] think that it is big increase.
[28:46] So this is how these leaders become, like, very, like, breaker of success for company.
[28:53] Right?
[28:53] And Right.
[28:55] This is how they're not just on the right place.
[28:58] And, this is what companies should focus on to, get people who can have big vision, who are
[29:06] willing to stretch themselves, right, who understand laws, like, how this like, how to
[29:13] decision making can Right.
[29:16] The results.
[29:17] Right?
[29:17] Like, when they make decision from something that they know already, and they hesitate to do
[29:23] something new because they're afraid what if they fail.
[29:25] So they will never do decisions which will lead to company growth and company's success.
[29:32] And this is how companies get stagnated because of such leaders.
[29:38] Yes.
[29:39] Absolutely.
[29:41] Yes.
[29:43] Let's speak about another topic, which is, like, within this, but another question which
[29:48] will be about managing up without losing yourself.
[29:53] Many people listening may not be the CEO.
[29:57] They may be working for a difficult or unpredictable or highly controlling leader and
[30:03] feel that have very little power to change the situation.
[30:08] How do you successfully manage up without becoming passive, constantly people pleasing,
[30:14] or putting your own career at risk?
[30:19] You know, that is definitely gonna be the topic for my next book, because I am passionate about
[30:27] this as well.
[30:28] Because I having worked for seagull manage seagull managers or those who demonstrate
[30:34] seagull management tendencies, I had to learn how to not just feed the tiger.
[30:42] And and I I don't know if people are familiar with that term, but to feed the tiger is to you
[30:48] know, if if you keep giving them what they're looking for, then the tiger you know, feeding
[30:53] the tiger, then the tiger won't bite you.
[30:56] So, and and so that's where that, people pleasing comes in, and, I had that tendency of
[31:04] being a people pleaser.
[31:07] And so I had to learn over the years to stop being a people pleaser and stand up, especially
[31:13] when I was the supervisor and I was in charge of the people and we had a leader who would
[31:18] demonstrate the the legal management behavior.
[31:24] The the the poor thing to do from a man a supervisor perspective for me in regards to my
[31:32] seagull manager, was to take the brunt, take the hit.
[31:37] In the navy, I that's what I did when I was in the navy as a leading petty officer, and we had
[31:41] a chief, which would be considered like a line manager, would come in, and he'd pound on me,
[31:48] you know, and and fly away.
[31:51] And then I'd have to go to the team, and I would soft pedal it.
[31:55] You know?
[31:55] I'd I'd let them know, hey.
[31:57] You know what?
[31:58] This is what we need to do.
[32:00] Chief says blah blah blah.
[32:02] And and that wasn't the way to handle it.
[32:04] I learned years later, with yet another Siegel manager.
[32:09] It's it's standing up for yourself without picking a fight, really.
[32:14] When you manage up, what you're going to do is you're going to have to create for yourself a
[32:22] place of calm, recognizing that, okay, they're swooping, you know, and they're gonna start
[32:30] dumping.
[32:32] And you you you go, time out.
[32:36] I hate to interrupt you, but I need more information before you go.
[32:42] You know?
[32:44] That's hard in the face of someone that's being very loud.
[32:50] And in in some respects, this manager, I didn't really felt like respected me anyway.
[32:58] But much like I did with that you know, I told you earlier about the manager that walked up
[33:03] when I was working as a stage manager yelling, I learned how to kinda shut down the noise and
[33:11] create for myself a sense of calm and listen to the words that they're saying.
[33:17] So don't listen to the emotion.
[33:18] Don't don't try to feel the emotion, but try to listen to the words.
[33:23] And then ask questions.
[33:25] And it it's interesting because some of the the seagull manager behavior that would come to me
[33:31] then, when I started asking questions, they would get annoyed at first.
[33:37] It was like, I got things to do.
[33:39] You know?
[33:39] Just just do it.
[33:40] It's like, wait.
[33:42] You you want me to do this.
[33:44] I need to do it right.
[33:46] So just just give me a minute, would you?
[33:48] Just what do I need to do to make this work?
[33:52] And and I would use a a voice of calm.
[33:56] And that's hard.
[33:58] It was hard for me because I want to respond to the emotion, but you got to take the emotion
[34:04] out of it.
[34:06] And you've got to to listen to the words that are being said and respond in a way that's
[34:12] respectful.
[34:13] That's the key.
[34:14] You don't wanna start a fight.
[34:15] You wanna be respectful.
[34:17] And then listen to them and say, okay.
[34:21] I got it.
[34:22] Let me go take care of this.
[34:24] After a while, I've had a few managers that would then stop coming at me because I knew how
[34:30] I was gonna respond.
[34:32] I was gonna respond by looking at them and saying, okay.
[34:36] But I need to understand more.
[34:39] And in that space, I had to create that sense that you can't just come in and yell at me.
[34:46] You gotta come in, and let's have a focused conversation so that I can then turn around and
[34:53] do the work.
[34:54] And then after that, I can come back to you and tell you what was done and how it was done.
[34:59] And they would get used to that.
[35:02] I wasn't always successful.
[35:05] I you know, that that one that used to to yell, and you can hear him down the hall.
[35:09] I I never got through to him, but I also hung in there.
[35:16] And he he knew I was not going to respond poorly, to his, and I wasn't gonna just do the
[35:21] work, unless I truly understand the expectations and had the necessary tools to do
[35:27] the work.
[35:28] So I hope that answered your question.
[35:32] Yeah.
[35:32] Definitely.
[35:33] Yes.
[35:33] It is a
[35:34] because in the real world, that's what worked for me.
[35:37] Yes.
[35:37] Yes.
[35:37] It is, such a great attitude, and I just resume what you said.
[35:42] So first principle which you used, it was respond instead of react.
[35:49] Right?
[35:49] Like, in
[35:50] Right.
[35:50] What you like, first reaction will be to start yelling at him and tell why why you are yelling
[35:57] here.
[35:57] Let's just speak and, like, right, like, the same emotions.
[36:01] But we know that it will just escalate the conflict.
[36:05] Right?
[36:06] So the most important is to control yourself.
[36:09] And as you said, like, breathe and just be calm and peaceful with yourself, and don't take
[36:15] anything personal.
[36:16] Don't take anything personal because it is not about you.
[36:19] Right?
[36:19] This is about him.
[36:21] So what you do, you you don't react.
[36:24] You you take pause.
[36:26] Like, you breathe and just think something.
[36:29] Maybe look at this situation from a side that you are not here inside, but you, like, absorb
[36:34] observing the situation as a third party and respond the way how you want to respond.
[36:39] Right?
[36:39] Like, interrupt to interrupt that pattern of that behavior.
[36:44] Right.
[36:45] Right.
[36:45] You were successful because people already even when they do what is habitual for them, but
[36:52] already subconsciously, they know how it will, turn, and this is how it will go.
[36:57] Right?
[36:58] Like, next time, it will be easy for you to interrupt that pattern.
[37:03] Yes.
[37:03] So and, yes, so also what I heard ah, yes.
[37:07] And also very interesting that whatever that person says, right, like I said, don't take it
[37:15] personally.
[37:15] And, also, know that you can accept or reject.
[37:20] Like, yes, like, what
[37:21] do
[37:21] people say when we understand this principle that we have conscious mind and we can accept
[37:29] or reject any idea.
[37:31] So whatever people say, you can say, okay.
[37:33] Do I like that?
[37:34] Does it work for me?
[37:35] Yes.
[37:36] You accept.
[37:37] If it is no, you just reject it.
[37:39] Right?
[37:39] It's and say, it is not about me.
[37:41] It is not just about his state.
[37:43] Maybe he's some had something or ate something maybe hot today morning.
[37:47] Right?
[37:47] Yes.
[37:48] Yes.
[37:49] Yes.
[37:49] So Yes.
[37:50] It is really very important to take your yourself out of that situation and look just at
[37:56] that person.
[37:57] And also understanding, of course, mindset that some people, they created that state and the
[38:04] way of being as their emotional home.
[38:08] And this is fine for them.
[38:09] It is just the way how they live, the way how emotions their emotions already used to to be,
[38:17] and this is how they want to bring the other people in their world.
[38:22] Right?
[38:22] But when you
[38:23] Right.
[38:23] You don't allow yourself to be involved in his world, but you keep your calmness and you just
[38:29] look at this at at his, like like, as as object.
[38:33] He's an object, and this is, like, his world.
[38:35] And this is now his coming how I want to interrupt.
[38:38] So to keep my peace and calmness, and this is how I want to be a great leader for my team,
[38:44] right, instead of just escalating and bring the same anger and all these emotions to people who
[38:50] I lead.
[38:51] Right?
[38:51] Because as usually, it is like this when people don't, don't think.
[38:56] Right?
[38:56] Like, when they act only on reaction, this is how it happens.
[39:00] Like, what somebody starts, and then this person already get nervous, angry, and then he
[39:08] goes to his team and and just duplicates the same.
[39:11] Right?
[39:11] So this is where the great leadership is.
[39:14] Like, when we can interrupt that pattern and be the best leader for our team and for our people
[39:20] Exactly.
[39:21] Making them the best.
[39:23] Oh, it's yeah.
[39:24] You know, and and coming at a problem, one of the greatest tools I found is to be curious.
[39:31] Is to be curious about why does this problem exist?
[39:34] And and the first thing we have to think about is, is this is this the problem, or is this
[39:40] just a symptom of the problem?
[39:43] And so it it being curious, if we think about this as a symptom, well, truly, there must be
[39:50] something behind that symptom, and that's where we're gonna find the true problem.
[39:54] And so we can then begin to investigate.
[39:57] So why why is this up why is this coming up now?
[40:01] You know?
[40:02] Is there something behind it?
[40:04] And and much like you said, you know, it could be something happened, you know, that that
[40:09] triggered them to then respond in the way that they did.
[40:12] And so then to be curious, you know, take a more symptom a a symptom problem curiosity to
[40:21] to see if we can truly find what's going on.
[40:24] So yeah.
[40:24] No.
[40:25] That's that's worked for me very, very well over the years.
[40:29] Yes.
[40:29] And to have these qualities, what you did you do?
[40:33] What helped you to be calm, to be present, to be mindful in such situations?
[40:40] How did you develop this quality throughout the years?
[40:46] I think that, you know, by and large, it's just the experience.
[40:51] You know?
[40:52] Experience is a hard teacher.
[40:54] The experience of working for managers, and then, you know, I I had always been very you
[41:03] know, I've always wanted to be more than I am.
[41:07] I always wanted to grow and become, something then that that mattered to me.
[41:15] And having a manager that I just got in pitch battle with all the time wasn't gonna get me
[41:22] where I needed to go.
[41:24] You know?
[41:26] At the same time, I didn't wanna feed the tiger either, but I I wanted to learn and grow.
[41:32] And I just it it just got to the point to where I decided that I like this person.
[41:39] I wanna help them, but the only way I'm gonna do that is if I'm calm.
[41:45] And so I just practiced.
[41:47] Mind you, I've had managers that tested that, and I have my buddy used to always say to me
[41:55] he'd always say, I don't know how you do it, man.
[41:57] I don't know how you can just sit there and and be so calm and casual.
[42:01] And I said, well, you know, to to like what my buddy would do, he'd get pitch battled with the
[42:07] with the manager.
[42:09] That doesn't get you anywhere.
[42:11] You you you gain nothing from that.
[42:13] And I said, you just you need to stop.
[42:17] And he's like, I guess I need to go to the school, Steve, because because I I I'm not
[42:24] gonna survive this.
[42:25] And I said, well, yeah.
[42:27] And this is what you need to do.
[42:29] And so I guess it's just practice.
[42:31] You know, it's just being in you know, having those who would try to make it difficult for
[42:39] you to work and yell, screech, scream, dump on you that eventually I just got to the point to
[42:46] where I can just be calm.
[42:48] You know, it's funny.
[42:50] One of the things, though, it it it got to the point where it was so bad with a particular
[42:54] manager that it even it even caused me to have difficulty with them.
[43:00] And I finally got to the point to where I felt like, you know what?
[43:05] I need to write a book.
[43:06] And it and that the book writing the the the comic book I wrote, became therapy.
[43:12] So and and it because I I intend to be very sarcastic.
[43:18] That is one of my superpowers, unfortunately.
[43:21] And so I wrote a and I'm an artist.
[43:23] I'm a you know, I can write comics.
[43:27] And so I started doing a comic book, and that became therapy for me.
[43:32] And so I was able to ride that out.
[43:36] But but then it sent me on that sent me on on this track with teaching seagull management and
[43:43] how to stop the behavior.
[43:45] So, I guess the best way I can answer that question then is just it was practice.
[43:50] Practice.
[43:51] Practice.
[43:51] Practice.
[43:52] Yeah.
[43:52] Unfortunately, many managers gave me opportunity to practice.
[43:57] Yes.
[43:57] Good.
[43:57] You can look at situation like a trade meal, like a drainage or for practice your tolerance.
[44:03] Right?
[44:04] Like, maybe practice your patience.
[44:07] Yes.
[44:08] And so yes.
[44:10] Patience.
[44:11] Yes.
[44:11] Patience.
[44:12] Yes.
[44:13] Patience.
[44:13] Yes.
[44:14] Patience.
[44:15] And, also, I I can share one little thing that, I learned also about compassion.
[44:23] I like when you you when you as you said, like, you look at this person like, oh, I like this
[44:28] guy.
[44:29] Something is they just like, something is in him.
[44:32] Right?
[44:32] And he suffers himself from this behavior.
[44:35] Right?
[44:35] So when we use compassion and then we can imagine him to be a little boy.
[44:42] Yeah.
[44:42] Just imagine him
[44:43] to be
[44:44] a little boy and just think, okay.
[44:46] Like, just think about, like like, let's say, forty years ago, like, how small he was, like,
[44:51] fifty years ago.
[44:52] He was smiling.
[44:53] Like, when you you could add this picture of innocent child, like, and think about him,
[44:58] like, he was that innocent child, then maybe something in life went wrong, and he became
[45:03] like this.
[45:04] Right?
[45:04] So this this technique helps you to feel compassion instead of react or being hurt or
[45:11] being angry.
[45:13] You know, you cannot be angry for a child.
[45:16] Right?
[45:16] Like, innocent child
[45:17] Right.
[45:17] Smiling and so, like like, has these eyes which is, like, so naive and, like right?
[45:25] So this is this can help.
[45:28] Like, this is something that you can use immediately.
[45:31] When you are in this situation and you feel like like how to, like, how to control that.
[45:37] Right?
[45:37] Like, how not to do just what is easy to do in that.
[45:41] This technique is very helpful, I'd say, because this is how you can immediately change
[45:47] your perspective and look at him as that child, and this is just a good person, but maybe he is
[45:52] not aware of these, programs which are running his life.
[45:56] And he is the victim himself, right, when he doesn't Right.
[46:00] Change them.
[46:01] So this helps.
[46:02] Right?
[46:02] And then, of course, breathing.
[46:05] And, also, it is it helps when you move from your left brain, which is all logic, all these
[46:13] saboteurs, which has start because, like, negative saboteur activates your negative
[46:19] saboteur.
[46:19] Like, this is how people
[46:20] Right.
[46:21] Fight.
[46:21] Right?
[46:22] Like, they say negative, and it activates negative part in in that person.
[46:27] But very helpful in such situation is to switch from left brain to right brain and to Mhmm.
[46:34] How we do this where the like, our sage, like, this peaceful, calm, and creative energies in
[46:40] right brain and all those negative saboteurs, like, all those negative programs and negative
[46:46] self talk and all this, like, also logic isn't left brain.
[46:51] Right?
[46:51] So when we switch senses, we can we can touch fingers like this.
[46:56] Even if we're sitting in the meeting, right, we can still do it everywhere.
[47:00] You you just switch your intention or attention to something sensuous.
[47:06] Like, you can just, slightly, put finger and just feel the bridges of your skin, or you can
[47:12] move like these hands and feel the hands.
[47:15] So it will give give you that opportunity to be calm.
[47:19] Right?
[47:19] And also Right.
[47:20] Right.
[47:20] Listen further voice and closer voice.
[47:23] Just switch to senses, and this will give you that pause and that opportunity to switch and
[47:29] not to be driven by those negative reactions.
[47:34] Mhmm.
[47:35] Mhmm.
[47:35] Yes.
[47:36] Yeah.
[47:36] I've also found box breathing to be very effective too because that's something else you
[47:41] can do that you don't have to physically show that you're you're you're performing that box
[47:46] breathing also because then that brings your blood pressure down, and you can then feel more
[47:51] relaxed even while you're standing in front of the person.
[47:55] You know?
[47:57] That works too.
[47:58] You know?
[47:58] But, yeah, you're absolutely right.
[48:01] And and certainly, empathy and compassion.
[48:04] Yeah.
[48:05] That's that's where I I live.
[48:07] Yeah.
[48:08] Amazing.
[48:09] So, let's speak now about, accidental manager versus intentional leader.
[48:16] If a leader listening to us recognize themselves in this conversation and realizes, I
[48:23] might actually be the senior manager.
[48:26] What should they do next?
[48:28] What are the most important changes they can make immediately to become a more intentional
[48:33] leader and create a culture where people can genuinely perform at their best?
[48:41] The best thing they can do for themselves, of course, is your the awareness piece.
[48:47] Become aware that they are have been demonstrating the seagull management type
[48:53] behavior and have the desire to change.
[48:58] And to do that and this is I lay this out in my book, a seagull manager's guide to intentional
[49:04] leadership.
[49:05] I I lay out the exact steps to move away from seagull management behavior to intentional
[49:11] leadership is to pause.
[49:15] Instead, when you when you find yourself ready to pounce, ready to to to fly in and and all
[49:21] the rest, that they would stop and pause and and take a minute and think, okay.
[49:28] I'm not going to do that this time.
[49:30] So what they're going to do now is they're gonna say, I need to understand why this
[49:36] problem exists and, you know, is this a symptom or is this a source?
[49:41] What's going on here?
[49:42] So that they can then go to the team and say, hey.
[49:44] I see that this is an issue.
[49:47] Tell me more.
[49:48] What's going on?
[49:50] So clarify the situation.
[49:51] What's going on?
[49:52] Following that step, then they would move on to, looking at the potential for a binary trap.
[49:59] The binary trap is we've got, we can approach the problem with either a approach or b
[50:08] approach, but we find that both a and b are not necessarily good approaches.
[50:14] Well, we don't wanna do either of those so now we need to look at the third option.
[50:19] And the third option is that thing that just might be what it takes to solve the problem.
[50:24] Once you do that, then we start to solve the problem.
[50:29] Stay present.
[50:30] You know, stay in it with your team, not micromanage.
[50:34] Make no mistake.
[50:35] I'm not talking about micromanagement.
[50:36] We wanna stay away from that too.
[50:39] But be aware that the team is working the problem.
[50:43] And let them know, I'm here if you need me.
[50:46] Let me know what I need to do to help move mountains to make sure and and remove
[50:52] constraints to make sure that you can get the job done well.
[50:58] And then they can move on to the next thing, but always being available to the team if they
[51:03] need it as the problem continues to work itself out.
[51:07] Now just like any program where you have a a poor response and then you you have a fix like
[51:19] this, this intentional leadership, model I designed out, it can get away from you.
[51:26] It it can no longer become a thing to help you, with overcoming the cagle management because
[51:32] there is the chance you're gonna slip back in to the cagle management behavior on occasion.
[51:39] You need to look at a whole new way of being within that, yeah, intentional leadership
[51:45] style, and you can use certain tools to do that.
[51:49] The one that I often recommend is continuing to learn how to be a leader who is available to
[51:58] your team and always investing in your team through growth and their ability to perform
[52:06] individual tasks.
[52:08] And that's why I go back to s l two, which is, the, Blanchard's s l two training where you're
[52:15] you're growing your individuals, each person at a time, helping them learn to grow on their
[52:22] task.
[52:23] You know, they start at the beginning and then eventually get to the point where now you're
[52:27] delegating the task and they're able to do it themselves.
[52:31] And pretty soon, you start to build little, mini me.
[52:35] They they all know what you know, how to do these tasks, how to do the work the way you
[52:39] would do it.
[52:40] And so now you can just be hands off and say, hey.
[52:44] My team has it.
[52:45] I can move on.
[52:47] That is ultimately what's gonna re remove any sense or desire to practice legal management
[52:53] behavior because your team's got it.
[52:55] They're they're mini you.
[52:56] You wanna build a bunch of mini yous, so, it it becomes then it feeds in the positive, itself
[53:05] going forward.
[53:06] And you remove virtually all constraints to the organization from that perspective, and now the
[53:12] company is doing what it's supposed to be doing, making money.
[53:15] That's why we do this.
[53:17] We're trying to make money.
[53:18] And our goal right now is let's remove the constraints, and let's give these leaders the
[53:22] tools to to remove those constraints and to learn how to build strong teams to to deliver
[53:29] on what the customer needs so that we can get back to making real money.
[53:34] Yes.
[53:35] Exactly.
[53:35] Thank you so much, Steve, for such a valuable conversation.
[53:39] And I think that a powerful message here is that, leadership isn't simply about what we
[53:45] intend.
[53:46] It's about the impact we create in other people.
[53:50] And when leaders become more intentional about who they are and how they lead, they don't just
[53:56] change performance.
[53:57] They change the culture around them.
[54:01] That's true.
[54:01] That's true.
[54:02] And that's the that that is the piece that we're really working for.
[54:05] It's that that culture of success, that culture of growth, purposeful living, you know, where
[54:14] work, you know, doesn't become just transactional living but becomes
[54:18] transformational both for the individual and the organization.
[54:23] Yes, Steve.
[54:24] Thank you so much for so many, wisdom insights and golden nuggets which you shared with us
[54:30] today, and I really enjoyed our conversation.
[54:33] And I believe that, our listeners too can listen it again and again because they can
[54:38] learn so much from you and your many years experience.
[54:43] And I'm looking forward to see you again in our future conversations.
[54:48] Very welcome, and, I enjoyed the conversation.
[54:51] I appreciate the opportunity to to share, the need to remove seagull management behavior from
[54:58] the workplace.
[54:59] Yeah.
[55:00] Thank you so much for everything what you do, and, your job is what you do, it's so
[55:05] impactful.
[55:06] And I'm sure that people who listen to this will start, implementing.
[55:10] Right?
[55:12] Either if they're on leadership position or people who are working under leader, they can
[55:17] learn so much from you.
[55:18] And, yes, who are listening to us, please share your feedback and maybe one thing that you will
[55:26] start implementing and how it work worked for you.
[55:29] It is always great to see comments and your questions so we can meet again with Steve in
[55:35] further episodes and answer the questions and share more.
[55:41] You so much, Elena.
[55:43] You're welcome.
[55:44] Yes.
[55:44] And follow Steve.
[55:45] All the information how to contact Steve, will be in description to this video.
[55:51] And, of course, subscribe to mindset to results.
[55:54] Share this episode with people who might be looking for this information.
[55:58] Thank you so much, Steve.
[55:59] See you again.
[56:01] You're very welcome.
[56:02] Goodbye.
[56:03] Bye.

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