# The Human-Animal Bond: Pamela Johnson on Caregiving, Resilience, and Leadership Lessons

An episode of ["Mindset2Results" with Elena Apalkova](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1739157956), 24 Aug 2026, 1 h 01 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/media.podcastai.com/episodes/JBAMuHns7mT.mp3?u=1787580901

Elena Apalkova is joined by Pamela Johnson to explore the dynamics of pet care and the psychological impact on caregivers. Pamela shares her journey with Pet Lovers United and emphasizes educating pet owners to better support veterinarians. The conversation addresses the challenges of caregiving, highlighting the importance of recognizing self-neglect and maintaining mental health. They delve into the human-animal bond, leadership lessons from animals, and the complexities of trust in veterinary practice. Pamela offers insights on balancing compassion with boundaries and supporting those resistant to help. The episode concludes with discussions on empathy, leadership, and human connection in the age of AI, ending with a call to action. (0:00) Introduction and background of Pamela Johnson (1:03) Passion, audience growth, and Pet Lovers United (2:41) Educating pet owners to support veterinarians (5:00) Psychological impact and challenges of caregiving (7:32) Recognizing and addressing self-neglect (9:03) Resilience and mental health in caregiving (12:45) Consequences of neglecting mental health (18:45) The human-animal bond and its importance (22:13) Leadership lessons from animals (27:06) Building and navigating trust in veterinary practice (32:34) Cynicism and its effects on trust (35:15) Balancing compassion with boundaries (41:13) Supporting those resistant to help (45:15) Empathy versus emotional self-destruction (46:43) Leadership lessons outside traditional frameworks (53:27) Evolving identity through leadership experience (57:46) Human connection in the age of AI (59:14) Closing remarks and call to action

## Transcript

[0:03] Hello.
[0:03] Hello.
[0:04] Welcome to mindset two results.
[0:07] And today, our guest is amazing, Pomela Johnson.
[0:11] What happens when caring deeply for others starts cost you personally?
[0:17] Today, I am joined with doctor Pamela Johnson, veterinarian, leadership coach, and founder of
[0:24] veterinarian mind veterinary masterminds.
[0:31] After more than thirty years in high pressure veterinary medicine, Pamela has powerful
[0:38] lessons about leadership, resilience, emotional intelligence, and how to serve others without
[0:45] losing yourself.
[0:46] Hi, Pamela.
[0:47] Hello.
[0:48] How are you doing?
[0:50] I just I wanna mention that, we are now operating under the it's the umbrella is
[0:56] Veterinary Mastermind, but we're operating under the name Pet Lovers United.
[1:00] So I wanted to to to clarify that.
[1:03] Amazing.
[1:03] Pet Lovers United.
[1:05] I love that that umbrella.
[1:07] It is very beautiful and exactly tells about people who loves their pets so much.
[1:14] And before we start the interview, Pamela, I always ask the guests one question.
[1:20] What makes you so passionate to be today on our podcast and share with the world about your
[1:26] experience?
[1:28] The answer to that is, you know, I I owned a a brick and mortar business for almost thirty
[1:34] years, and I can remember saying to my husband a few years ago that I felt like I needed a
[1:42] bigger stage, that I needed to reach more people and make a bigger difference.
[1:47] And and hence, being, on podcasts such as yours helps me to to get the message out to a a a
[1:58] bigger a bigger group of people, hopefully having a a bigger ripple on on our profession,
[2:07] which the burnout rate is very, very high.
[2:09] The suicide rate is the highest of any profession in the world.
[2:14] And as well, as you know, I mentioned bridging the gap.
[2:19] And one of the things we try to do at Pet Lovers United is is help the veterinarians by
[2:28] educating pet owners on things that veterinarians wish the pet owners knew before
[2:35] they ever came into their door because there's not a lot of time for full exchange.
[2:41] And so where where we come in is trying to take some of the burden away from the veterinary
[2:47] team and also empower the the the pet owners at the same time.
[2:54] Yes.
[2:55] I can, I can imagine how painful sometimes it can be for pet owners to see their pet,
[3:03] suffering?
[3:04] I had a parrot, when I was small, and that when that parrot died, I I it was so hard for me.
[3:12] I couldn't eat for days.
[3:13] Like, I loved it so much.
[3:15] And I I imagine, like, when people have their dogs or cats for many, many years, it becomes,
[3:22] like, part of their family, like, family members, and it is really hard.
[3:27] Grieving is grieving.
[3:28] Right?
[3:29] Whatever whatever we're grieving over, and everybody experiences grief in a very different
[3:35] way, whether it's, again, whether it's a parrot, whether it's a dog, whether it's a cat.
[3:42] You you know, it's grief is grief.
[3:45] You know, I've lost a lot of of of family members in my lifetime.
[3:50] And and while I'm not comparing pets to humans at all, grief, the experience, is still very
[3:59] much the same when you when you lose someone like that.
[4:02] So so I wanna acknowledge that for the listeners.
[4:06] Yes.
[4:07] And, Bamela, thank you so much, for sharing and, of course, being a guest on our podcast
[4:13] because we also have this, goal and mission to, make people experience available for so many
[4:22] people so they can really see, people, hear their life stories, their experience, their
[4:30] knowledge, and, this is how we all contribute to this global expert knowledge hub.
[4:40] So let's speak about the hidden cost of caring.
[4:44] Because, we all know that if we have somebody who get ill or needs care, so many times we
[4:54] take care, without thinking about ourselves.
[5:00] Yes.
[5:00] And you spent more than thirty years in a pro in the professional around caring for others.
[5:07] What happens psychologically when the people who care the most continuously put themselves
[5:14] last?
[5:18] I think that's that that's multifactorial.
[5:21] I can I can speak for myself, certainly?
[5:24] And and I think it's it's safe to say that a lot of people have gone through similar
[5:29] experiences.
[5:31] When you are not taking care of yourself, number one, and you are a caregiver, whether it
[5:40] is a a person you're you're caring for, whether it's a pet you're caring for, whether it's
[5:45] people.
[5:46] In my situation, I'm caring for pets and people.
[5:50] And you have to have a balanced not just a balanced perspective, but a balanced life.
[5:56] You have to be able to make sure that you're taking care of yourself physically,
[6:01] emotionally, and spiritually.
[6:04] And and for me personally, I find that that that is a huge component to keeping my life in
[6:13] balance and keeping things in perspective.
[6:17] Also, is in our industry specifically, it's important to note that that you can't save
[6:24] everyone.
[6:25] And and part of our role as caregivers in this environment is that we have a responsibility to
[6:33] end suffering at the same time.
[6:36] So having those conversations with with clients and and people in general can be very, very
[6:42] difficult and very, very taxing.
[6:44] So you have to have a way that you can step back and focus on on your own inner health,
[6:55] your own inner well-being so that you can better help other people.
[6:59] I was just having the conversation with someone today who's who's actually taking care of their
[7:04] partner who has cancer.
[7:06] And I said, you know, you really you're gonna have to take care of yourself to better take
[7:11] care of of your partner.
[7:13] And I find that very true in in life in general that when we start to forget about our own
[7:22] personal needs, that's actually when the burnout happens.
[7:26] That's that's actually when we start to lose lose ourselves if we're not careful.
[7:32] Yes.
[7:33] So true, Pamela.
[7:34] And, what are the signs that are telling that it is really important to start taking care of
[7:41] yourself?
[7:44] I think the signs are probably gonna be maybe a little different for different people, but I
[7:50] think one of the first ones that I noticed is that you you start losing your your passion.
[7:59] You start losing your your sense of joy in whatever it is you're doing on a day to day
[8:05] basis.
[8:06] And I think that's really important for us to be curious about that, to kind of look inside.
[8:13] Right?
[8:13] If we start noticing a difference in how we're responding, how we're reacting to other people,
[8:20] how we're engaging with other people, how we're enjoying the things that we normally find
[8:28] wonderful in our lives.
[8:30] And and if you start to notice a shift, then be curious.
[8:36] Look inside.
[8:36] Start asking yourself the question, why am I feeling this way?
[8:41] And for me personally, once I start being curious about my own feelings and behaviors,
[8:50] then it's I I tend to be able to identify, clarify.
[8:55] And once I know where it's coming from, then I can address it more directly, if that makes
[9:02] sense.
[9:03] Yes.
[9:04] Yes.
[9:04] Definitely.
[9:05] Definitely.
[9:06] And, now let's speak about resilience.
[9:10] Yes.
[9:10] Because, we know, of course, that resilience is a very strong quality.
[9:15] Yes.
[9:15] We use resilience to overcome challenges, to continue caring about other people, do our
[9:23] responsibilities.
[9:24] And let's speak today when about situations when resilience becomes dangerous.
[9:31] Because we celebrate as a strength, but can resilience become dangerous when it teaches us,
[9:39] like, people who are high performance to tolerate situations, they should actually
[9:43] change.
[9:46] I so I think that you're right.
[9:50] Resilience is a is a very is a very strong, very powerful word.
[9:55] Sometimes I think it's maybe overused, and maybe misunderstood.
[10:02] It's it's similar in some ways.
[10:05] I think people confuse it with not expressing your your own emotions.
[10:12] Right?
[10:13] Not working through your own feelings.
[10:16] I don't see resilience that in the same way.
[10:20] I think that the people in this world that are the most resilient are the ones that that
[10:27] really have a great sense of self.
[10:31] They have a great sense of their own personal needs.
[10:34] I I personally don't like the phrase work life balance because I don't think that exists.
[10:41] I think that work life balance is very unique to to every individual.
[10:46] And and so what I like to say is you've got to keep keep your sense of self and keep keep
[10:54] healthy boundaries for yourself in terms of the things that that bring you energy versus drain
[11:02] your energy.
[11:03] And and I don't think I don't think we have to fake it till you make it.
[11:08] I don't I don't I don't I don't necessarily believe in that.
[11:12] And I think that a lot of times when you talked about how resilience can be dangerous, you
[11:17] know, how many times have we seen people that were caring for either a person or or in in my
[11:25] situation, very often, it's pets that are, you know, all going towards ends of end of life.
[11:32] And then when that that pet or that person passes, then all of a sudden, they have major
[11:40] health issues.
[11:42] And I think very often, that's because we weren't really focused on making sure that we
[11:48] were taking care of ourselves while we're taking care of others.
[11:53] Yeah.
[11:54] So true.
[11:55] Because people who focused on taking care of others, they can neglect ex themselves.
[12:01] Yes.
[12:01] And instead of, like, fixing things which happens, they just suppress them, suppress
[12:09] them, and then, like, nervous system is just, like, having that, like, resources, yes, to
[12:18] some extent.
[12:19] Right?
[12:19] And also psychologically, they know that they have to be present for somebody else.
[12:24] And as you said, when that person passes away, this is how for nervous system, it is now like
[12:32] a alarm.
[12:32] Now you just can you can bring everything everything to the surface, and this is what
[12:37] happens.
[12:39] Exactly.
[12:40] Exactly.
[12:40] And it happens again and again and again.
[12:43] Yes.
[12:44] And especially this, I I would empathize about people who have depression is because
[12:55] depression is suppressed emotions over the time.
[13:00] It's when people suppress their emotions that they think only about others, and this is how
[13:06] depression is formed.
[13:07] And then depressed depression goes to disease.
[13:12] I think that very often that is the case.
[13:14] I also but I also I know that there are many different forms of depression.
[13:19] Right?
[13:20] And so I think, you know, it's important you you bring up a good point.
[13:26] I think it's very, very important to address early rather than later if you are feeling if
[13:33] you are having feelings of depression.
[13:36] You know, there's we all feel moments of of feeling down, down in the dumps, I like to say,
[13:42] or a little you know, just a little off.
[13:45] But there's a big difference between that and and true depression.
[13:50] And I think it's important that we not only get a diagnosis, but understand the underlying
[13:58] cause of that depression because there's many, many different causes of depression out there,
[14:03] and and they're all treated very, very differently, very, very uniquely.
[14:08] So I'm glad you brought that up because in my in my profession, it is it's it's very
[14:17] overrepresented, let's say, in terms of of of how of how many people are burned out.
[14:26] They're feeling overwhelmed, overburdened, and and just can't deal emotionally with what they
[14:34] have to deal with on a day to day basis.
[14:36] And so, you know, they're in that situation, I think that it's important that you reach out
[14:43] sooner rather than later.
[14:45] I've been through that myself, not with my profession, but having lost, you know, lost a
[14:51] lot of of family members as a young person and having gone through some significant traumas
[14:57] early in life, I did not realize the significance of getting counseling early on and
[15:08] how and how important that is to getting you getting you through and past, whatever it is
[15:16] you're struggling with.
[15:17] And in some cases, it may require medication for some people, and and I certainly, you know,
[15:23] have great respect, you know, for for those people out there that that have actually sought
[15:30] out help, and understand that maybe in some cases, they need extra help and not just not
[15:37] just counseling, not just the opportunity to to understand why they're in the space that
[15:44] they're in, why they feel the way they feel, and exploring all of those things.
[15:49] So thank you for bringing that up.
[15:52] Yes.
[15:52] Yes.
[15:52] And thank you, of course, for sharing from your experience.
[15:56] And, you mentioned that it is very important to address such a kind of, deep signs of
[16:02] depression early stage?
[16:05] Why it is so important to catch it early instead of just waiting and thinking like,
[16:09] okay.
[16:10] I will deal with this later when I have time.
[16:15] It's gonna come out somehow.
[16:17] And and, generally speaking, if you don't address it sooner rather than later, you're
[16:24] going to start noticing that that at least in my in my walk, on my path, you're gonna start
[16:31] noticing that that you're not enjoying life, that that you're not engaging with others.
[16:39] You're going to lose sight of your passions in life.
[16:45] Very often, we we make poor decisions, you know, when we're we're when we're in a state of
[16:52] depression, and we're not focused on a sense of gratitude and well-being and and focusing on
[17:01] how to keep ourselves healthy.
[17:03] You know?
[17:04] So I think that it's it's really, really critical that we that we take a a hard look, a
[17:09] quick look.
[17:10] And back to your question about resilience, don't confuse resilience with with trying to
[17:19] hide or minimize whatever it is you're going through.
[17:25] Yes.
[17:25] Don't confuse resilience with neglection.
[17:28] Yes.
[17:28] With neglecting yourself.
[17:31] And, yes.
[17:32] And, it is also very important to really value your mental health.
[17:38] Right?
[17:39] Because I I think that many people underestimate mental health.
[17:44] And and then when they lose it and then they get themselves in troubles, as you said, that
[17:49] they they don't feel that they have energy to do anything.
[17:54] Right?
[17:54] And this is how everything start just collapsing like those dominoes.
[17:58] Like like, one after another, it starts to affect everything in life.
[18:03] And as you said, if it is not taken care in the early stage later, it will be more hard.
[18:09] Right?
[18:10] Like, more hard and more more serious medicine might be necessary to take person back and also
[18:16] to stabilize.
[18:17] It will take time.
[18:19] So, of course, better not to get to that place and value your mental health when you have it,
[18:26] and you can take better care of other people will when you are healthy.
[18:31] Right?
[18:31] So put yourself first like that principle in the airplane.
[18:35] Yes.
[18:36] Put the mask on your face first, and then put mask on your children's face or what whoever
[18:42] you have next to you.
[18:45] That's so true.
[18:46] I talk a lot about the human animal bond in these instances in particular because, you
[18:51] know, if you talk about, you know, patients who let's say, people that have PTSD of some kind
[18:58] or, people that have a chronic illness.
[19:03] You know, these are the people that that, you know, tend to have bigger bigger challenges
[19:08] with depression and understandably so.
[19:11] And what we found is that through the human animal bond, that actually can provide
[19:16] significant healing, emotional, and in many cases, physical healing.
[19:22] We it's documented that we see drops in blood pressure, you know, changes in overall
[19:32] physical, their physical status when they do have a relationship with a healthy relationship
[19:40] with a pet.
[19:41] PTSD patients, again and again and again, it can it can actually save lives.
[19:48] And so, you know, I'm I'm this is just a wonderful topic, to to address because I think
[19:55] so many people don't understand that there's so many different kinds of help out there.
[20:02] And and I think that we need to to do a better job of getting getting that information out to
[20:08] people.
[20:10] Yes.
[20:11] Exactly.
[20:11] People should be more aware about health when they're healthy.
[20:16] Yes.
[20:16] Because usually, it happens vice versa that when they're healthy, they don't care.
[20:21] They think, oh, I have, like, five thousand year agreement to leave.
[20:25] Right?
[20:26] Yeah.
[20:26] And it it always they feels like, oh, we it will not happen to me.
[20:31] Like, maybe somebody else is sick, but I will just go as I go.
[20:35] And, yes, and, if if we have that attitude, it is, of course, good because it gives us from
[20:42] one side.
[20:42] Right?
[20:43] Like, it gives us good positive attitude towards life.
[20:46] But on the other hand, if we neglect and it if it becomes the habit to neglect our health,
[20:54] right, and then it can just suddenly it just she can suddenly come the day that we will not
[20:59] be able to do much.
[21:02] Happens all the time, Elena.
[21:04] All the time.
[21:06] So I I can't stress enough.
[21:08] Physical health, mental health, and emotional health all tied together.
[21:15] Yes.
[21:15] Especially now in this time when there are so many news, right, like, news, all these crises,
[21:21] all these wars, and people, literally are bombarded with different negative information
[21:27] every day.
[21:28] Like, we wake up and we don't know what will be the next.
[21:30] Right?
[21:31] So, again, to liked how you said that resilience is understanding yourself and taking
[21:38] care of yourself because this is only the way how you can move forward.
[21:43] Right?
[21:44] How you can help people, how you can overcome challenges.
[21:47] It is only possible when you are physically healthy and mentally healthy.
[21:54] This is only the way how you can really see the tasks and do your performance at the level as
[22:02] you expect.
[22:04] Yes.
[22:05] Yes.
[22:05] And I love I do love the word resilience.
[22:07] I just think sometimes it's maybe used out of context.
[22:13] Yeah.
[22:14] So true.
[22:15] Veterinary professionals regularly deal with frightened animals, emotional owners, and
[22:22] decisions with serious consequences.
[22:25] So I have a question for you.
[22:27] What that environment taught you about leading when everyone around you is under pressure?
[22:37] So this is where I love to tell a story.
[22:40] You know, I've I've taken a lot of leadership courses, and I've learned as much from animals
[22:49] in leadership than I have any horse.
[22:53] When particularly, I had a horse.
[22:56] Her name was Lida.
[22:57] And horses are very spiritual, but they're also very intuitive.
[23:04] And they know they know what mood you're in.
[23:07] They know what state of mind you're in a 100 yards away.
[23:11] And and and that applies to a team of people.
[23:16] It applies to life in general.
[23:19] And when when I would show up for my team at my office, I had to show up consistently.
[23:27] I had to be present.
[23:29] I had to be in the moment, and I had to be focused on what needed to be done in that
[23:35] moment.
[23:36] Because very often, in our in our world, very often, it's very highly emotionally charged.
[23:45] You're you're having crucial conversations, difficult conversations.
[23:50] And and I, as a leader, need to to to show how how we want to interact in these situations.
[24:01] We want to be able to to empathize, meet them where they're at.
[24:07] We we want to deescalate very often, and and we want to to show compassion at the same time.
[24:15] And I think that that being an active listener is very important, and I think that being
[24:24] present in that moment, you cannot be focused on who's in the other room or what the next
[24:31] appointment is.
[24:32] You have to be in that moment, and that's what that's what animals teach us because they live
[24:39] in the moment.
[24:40] They always live in the moment.
[24:42] They have to or they wouldn't survive.
[24:44] And so if we can if we can do that as people, as partners, as leaders, as business owners, as
[24:52] entrepreneurs, and and be physically, emotionally, mentally present with whoever it
[25:01] is we're talking to or engaging with in that moment, then it allows it allows better things
[25:09] to happen.
[25:10] It allows better collaboration, better communication, fewer misunderstandings in most
[25:16] situations.
[25:17] You know?
[25:18] So it's just it it truly is being present.
[25:24] Yes.
[25:25] Amazing lesson.
[25:26] Amazing lesson, what to learn from animals and, in this case, horses to live in present.
[25:33] Right?
[25:34] Horses don't think about what they were doing, like, one hour ago or yesterday or what weather
[25:41] was yesterday, so what will be tomorrow.
[25:45] Is they're all in this present moment?
[25:47] It is such a great lesson because so many people live in the past.
[25:51] Right?
[25:51] Or, like, are scared about the future, and this is why they, spend so much energy.
[25:59] And instead of creating something from this present moment where they are and making better
[26:04] decisions and communicate better, they their mind can be all over the places.
[26:13] Yes.
[26:14] And I think it's it's easy to it's easy to actually, in your mind, answer a question
[26:21] before the question's even been asked.
[26:23] Right?
[26:24] And I think very often, we we miss a lot when we don't when we don't really actively listen
[26:32] to that person and actively empathize and show compassion for for where they're coming from in
[26:40] that moment.
[26:41] Mhmm.
[26:42] Yes.
[26:42] It it makes such a big difference when person is all with you in that moment.
[26:48] Yes.
[26:49] Like, present with you and with your feeling.
[26:51] It it is such a big difference when, like, person just sitting and just does what he is
[26:57] supposed to do like a robot.
[26:59] It it feels such a big difference.
[27:03] Yes, ma'am.
[27:04] It does.
[27:06] Pamela, you talk about bridging the communication gap between veterinary teams and
[27:12] pet owners.
[27:14] After decades of watching difficult conversations, what do most people
[27:19] misunderstand about building trust?
[27:26] Trust doesn't happen instantly.
[27:31] Trust happens when you are consistent, when you show integrity, when you are transparent in
[27:42] everything that you do.
[27:44] I think that very often in this digital space that we live in, people are trusting too
[27:53] quickly.
[27:55] They're trusting the that the information that they're getting is correct.
[27:59] They're trusting that that the person on the other side, whoever's talking or sharing, is
[28:07] instantly credible when they're they're not necessarily so.
[28:13] And I think that you have to be able to earn people's trust, And I don't think that happens
[28:24] in an instant.
[28:25] I think that I think it can, but I think that that it happens much quicker quicker in my
[28:34] world, in my space, when you're actually physically present with a person, when you're
[28:40] actually face to face with an individual versus trying to send a message digitally, which is
[28:50] why, you know, I think, you know, emails are great, texts are great, you know, Zooms are
[28:57] great, podcasts are great, but nothing replaces the human component.
[29:05] Right?
[29:06] That human one, particularly one to one component or one to many components.
[29:13] And and I think that we need to be careful as a society because we're we're just bombarded with
[29:20] all this information, and we're left with what's what's true, what's right, what's not
[29:26] right.
[29:27] And and what's right for you may not be right for me.
[29:30] You know?
[29:31] So I think that that that for me, it's it's really understanding that that relationship you
[29:39] know, it's kinda like dating.
[29:40] You know?
[29:40] You don't you don't just jump in and, you know, tell somebody I love you right away.
[29:45] You you have to develop a relationship over time.
[29:50] And and that's exactly what we're trying to do at Pet Lovers United is is show that that that
[29:57] physical and that that, what I would call, transparent, presence, consistent presence,
[30:06] showing up the same way every time.
[30:09] That's that's how I think trust is or is earned.
[30:14] Yes.
[30:14] And you said that mistake that many people do is to trust so fast.
[30:21] I yeah.
[30:22] I do.
[30:23] I think that people tend to particularly, I keep focusing on the digital space.
[30:30] I think people tend to trust trust words, trust, you know, particularly famous people.
[30:38] If they say something, it must be true.
[30:40] Right?
[30:41] And I think that we have to be very careful about that nowadays.
[30:46] It's getting harder and harder to to to sift through what is the truth, what is reality.
[30:52] Right?
[30:53] And so I think it's you know, there's there's a lot of I could talk about this topic for a long
[30:59] time, but I think that that that trust is so critical.
[31:06] And and, you know, there's a difference between knowing someone, liking someone, and trusting
[31:11] someone.
[31:13] Mhmm.
[31:13] Yeah.
[31:14] So true.
[31:15] Because, if people trust too fast, they can put themselves in a bad situation.
[31:23] And, how does that mistake show up in business leadership and relationship?
[31:31] Well, goodness knows.
[31:32] I've made that mistake many times.
[31:34] You know?
[31:35] So it is it is a topic that's very near and dear to my heart.
[31:39] I think that if you you have to I always try to have people start at a 10 in my in my world.
[31:51] I try to give them every opportunity to prove that they they deserve my trust and they
[31:58] deserve my faith.
[32:00] You have to you have to do things to maintain that, or you can do things to lower that over
[32:08] with with your with your behaviors, with inconsistencies, with a lack of integrity and
[32:14] transparency.
[32:16] And and I have learned that lesson many, many, many times over the years.
[32:22] But there's also you also have to be careful about becoming too cynical.
[32:27] It's easy to become cynical in a space where maybe you've been let down multiple times.
[32:34] And and I made a commitment to myself that I wasn't gonna become cynical even though there
[32:40] have been many situations where people have let me down or or abused my abused my trust.
[32:48] Right?
[32:49] But that doesn't change I think it's important for people to know it doesn't change who you
[32:55] are.
[32:55] It's not a reflection of you as a person.
[32:58] It's not a reflection of your judgment.
[33:00] And quite the opposite.
[33:02] It's a reflection of your character that you you that you are not going to go into a
[33:09] relationship with cynicism and mistrust.
[33:13] Right?
[33:13] You're you're gonna you're gonna give them the opportunity to prove you wrong.
[33:18] I hope that answers the question.
[33:20] Yes.
[33:21] Of course.
[33:21] It resonates with me so much because I lost a lot.
[33:26] Like, my story, my life changed a lot.
[33:31] I I I lost like, I don't want to go to that.
[33:35] Maybe we will record another episode, and we will speak about trust where I can also share,
[33:41] my story.
[33:41] But it was hard.
[33:43] And, also that you just said, it was exactly for me.
[33:48] I gave myself the word that I'm not going to not to trust people because that is, like,
[33:55] different opposite, like, opposite, that is not good also.
[34:02] Right?
[34:02] It is not trust with closed eyes for everyone, but also on the other hand, you don't want to
[34:07] be cynical and then not trust people and look at everybody like, oh, this is the thief, or or
[34:13] this is wants to, like, do something bad because this is how you will start living
[34:19] expecting negative things to happen.
[34:21] And we know that what we expect, this is what we attract.
[34:25] So that is that would be the worst, worst result from that situation when we will let
[34:31] down if we would become that person because that, like, would be the the worst for our
[34:36] future.
[34:37] That is why, as you said, yeah, it is good to give people opportunity.
[34:43] Right?
[34:44] Like, to see them as good, but not just trust, like, everything.
[34:47] Just maybe in the middle in the five or six, and then give them that space and see, like,
[34:54] okay.
[34:54] Show me that I can trust you more or vice versa.
[34:58] Yeah?
[34:58] Yes.
[34:59] A 100%.
[35:01] Yeah.
[35:02] This was very, very important.
[35:04] So I believe we can, speak about this in our future episode, and we will discuss trust,
[35:10] like, in more in details.
[35:12] I think that is very interesting topic.
[35:15] Yeah.
[35:15] So the next question is, about compassion versus boundaries.
[35:22] It's like from one side, we want to be compassion.
[35:26] We want to help.
[35:27] And on the other side side, we have to have boundaries.
[35:31] So my question is this.
[35:32] How do you remain compassionate without absorb absorbing everyone's else emotions, problems,
[35:41] and expectations?
[35:44] You you cannot fix everything, and you cannot you can't fix another person.
[35:52] Right?
[35:52] They have to they have to help themselves.
[35:55] And you can be an advocate.
[35:59] You can be a sounding board.
[36:02] You can be a good friend.
[36:04] You can be a good mentor.
[36:06] But, ultimately, it's up to that individual to make the changes necessary for them to to to
[36:16] thrive and to be successful, to have successful relationships.
[36:21] And I think that that in my lifetime, probably similar to you in some ways, there have been,
[36:29] you know, several opportunities where you have to make a choice between self care and complete
[36:37] selflessness.
[36:39] And and I think that that very often you have to determine, is this is this relationship a
[36:45] healthy one for me, or is it too emotionally expensive?
[36:50] And that's a a phrase that I like to use is that you you have this emotional bank account,
[36:57] and and sometimes people withdraw way too much of that emotional bank account.
[37:04] And then at some point, you have to say, this is too emotionally expensive for me.
[37:10] And and in many situations, I've had to, you know, there's a wonderful book out there called
[37:17] boundaries.
[37:18] And and I I, you know, I don't know the author, but I do recommend the book.
[37:23] And I think it's very important that we do have healthy, healthy emotional boundaries.
[37:30] And and when someone you have to define them first for yourself.
[37:35] Right?
[37:36] And then when somebody crosses those boundaries inappropriately, then that's when you, you
[37:41] know, you you have to step back and say, I I care about you.
[37:46] I love you, but I can't necessarily support your behavior, your actions, you know, how
[37:55] you're, you know, how you're making you know, putting me in a situation where I feel
[37:59] uncomfortable.
[38:01] I've had to I've had to make those decisions very often in my life, and I you know, as a you
[38:07] know, what you you know, you think about your younger self.
[38:10] Right?
[38:10] You wish that you knew some of these things when you were, you know, in your teen years.
[38:15] Right?
[38:16] In my case, sometimes even in my twenties.
[38:18] But but I think that it's important that we we start to figure out where those boundaries are
[38:25] for our for us as individuals and then ensure that other people are respecting respecting
[38:34] that.
[38:35] Yeah.
[38:35] So true.
[38:36] You said such a great of course, everything you say, it is great ideas.
[38:41] I really appreciate.
[38:42] But one thing that, just, stood out for me that you said that we cannot help, people much
[38:51] because everything what happens is it it somehow, they attracted that.
[38:57] It somehow, they became a cause.
[38:59] Right?
[39:00] So even if we want to to help them, we can just do it partly.
[39:05] Because if the in order to change the results, the person has to change within.
[39:12] He has to make some difference, maybe in attitude, maybe in habits, again, maybe in
[39:17] trusting people.
[39:18] Right?
[39:19] Because if he doesn't learn the lessons, he will do exactly the same, and you just cannot
[39:24] continue helping person who does the same mistakes.
[39:27] Right?
[39:27] So this is everything what is around people.
[39:32] This is effect, and they are the cause.
[39:35] And as you said, the best help for the person will be to help him to see what is within him
[39:42] which cause these effects, are seen outside as results.
[39:48] Yeah.
[39:49] I know there's been a lot of people that have been through some very significant traumas in
[39:53] their life, and I have, you know, great compassion for that.
[39:58] I really, really do.
[39:59] Because I've gone through some incredible traumas myself, I I think that it does come
[40:05] down to you you ultimately have to pick yourself up by the bootstraps.
[40:09] Now there are ways to get help, and it's important to acknowledge that there are ways to
[40:14] get help.
[40:15] But you also have to understand what is your role.
[40:20] What is your role in this person's life?
[40:23] And and it can be all consuming.
[40:26] Right?
[40:27] But it it should never become all consuming.
[40:31] And we we we have to make sure that goes back to the sort of that conversation about
[40:36] boundaries.
[40:36] You know, we've gotta make sure that we're taking care of our our our ourselves first.
[40:42] And and then if another person, you know, is not willing to do the the work or take the
[40:51] steps, whatever that might be, then then that's where you you sort of you know, you love them
[40:58] from afar.
[40:59] Right?
[41:00] You love them from afar and say, I you know, I'm not the right I'm not a counselor.
[41:04] I'm not, you know, I'm not a psychologist.
[41:07] You know?
[41:08] And you just sort of have to separate yourself in those situations.
[41:13] Yes.
[41:13] And another thing that you can only help people who want help is because some people don't like
[41:20] their circumstances, like their results, but they also don't want to change anything.
[41:26] Like, it looks like they're not happy, but they also don't want help.
[41:31] And when you start coming and tell like, speak oh, take my help.
[41:35] Take my help.
[41:36] Like, you are just mostly, like, putting putting forcing this on them.
[41:41] And then they if you even help them, and then it will be all on you.
[41:46] Like, it is your initiative.
[41:47] Right?
[41:47] So okay.
[41:48] So you want to pick me up and and carry, so carry me then, and don't put me down again.
[41:53] Right?
[41:53] Because you already showed initiative, so carry on.
[41:57] So this is how it can be like, we want to help, and and that person can just, become the, like,
[42:05] some burden that wants to ask to carry him all the time or or her all the time.
[42:10] Right?
[42:10] So it is very important that person has to really has to to look for help, search for
[42:16] help, and be willing to adjust himself, like, way he thinks and feels and acts in order to
[42:24] start living life according to new results which he wants.
[42:28] Very I ran into this in my practice all the time, almost daily, and, you know, with with
[42:36] clients in particular that that maybe wanted us to to either fix the problem or do work for
[42:48] free.
[42:49] You know?
[42:49] And we're not you know, we weren't a nonprofit organization, and so there's a responsibility
[42:55] that goes with having a pet.
[42:58] There's a responsibility that goes with, you know, having children.
[43:04] And very often, I found myself having some very sort of difficult conversations about, you
[43:11] know, making decisions and choices when, you know you know, it could be a situation where
[43:18] they didn't really have the finances to to do whatever it was necessary to take care of the
[43:24] pet and or they had, you know, children that that needed health care.
[43:31] And so we would have to have some very difficult conversations about, well, your
[43:35] children are your priority.
[43:37] And if you're not in a situation to take care of of this pet, then we need to find some
[43:43] alternatives, you know, to help you find either someone else that can, or help you find
[43:50] funding.
[43:52] But we we we found ourselves in a situation where we can't fix that.
[43:58] Right?
[43:58] And we're not we're not responsible for your decisions and your choices, as a pet owner.
[44:06] If you can't afford to take to take, you know, minimum care and you can't afford to spend a
[44:13] certain amount of money per year, then you you shouldn't have that.
[44:18] You should you should basically budget this out.
[44:21] If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
[44:24] And, you know, so it's it's interesting that you bring this up because it's it's a
[44:29] conversation that I would have very often with my clients and with my team is that you have a
[44:36] responsibility to to manage your own life, to manage whether that's your yourself, your
[44:43] family, your children, in this situation, your pets, your pets' health care.
[44:49] It doesn't it it's not my responsibility.
[44:53] And so I had to be able to draw that line even though people would very often want to try to
[44:58] blame me or my office for the fact that we wouldn't pay for a medical procedure for them.
[45:06] It's a business.
[45:07] Right?
[45:08] It's a business.
[45:09] So that's it's just that's just one example that I wanted to share.
[45:15] Yes, Pamela.
[45:16] Thank you for sharing your experience.
[45:18] So where is the line between empathy and emotional self destruction?
[45:26] I think there's a difference between empathy, sympathy, and and and your own self
[45:37] preservation.
[45:38] I think that we need to make sure that we understand the there's a fine line between
[45:46] those things.
[45:47] When I'm empathic with with your situation, then then I I can show you compassion without
[45:57] taking responsibility.
[46:00] Right?
[46:01] You know?
[46:01] And I think that very often, people tend to want to take other people's feelings on
[46:09] themself, and we we just can't.
[46:12] We can't do that emotionally.
[46:15] We can't do that honestly, we can't do it physically nor nor spiritually in many
[46:20] situations.
[46:20] And so I think that's when we when we start to run into challenges when we don't understand
[46:27] that that while I can empathize with your situation and I can be very compassionate, I I
[46:34] I can't be the person that fixes that that that situation.
[46:41] Very often, it may not be fixable.
[46:43] Mhmm.
[46:45] Yes.
[46:46] So true.
[46:48] Let's speak about the leadership lesson nobody teaches.
[46:53] You built an award winning hospital, hospital, then moved into regional leadership and
[46:58] entrepreneurship.
[47:00] What did thirty years of leadership teach you that no leadership programs or business book
[47:07] could have taught you?
[47:11] I think that we touched on this a little bit earlier.
[47:18] It there I could talk about this for a long time too, but I think that it's easy for for us
[47:28] as leaders to to become cynical in nature, to to prejudge.
[47:38] I think it's it's a it's a slippery slope when we start to do that.
[47:47] I I also think that the key to success is complete empowerment of your team with complete
[48:03] business transparency.
[48:05] My team always knew exactly where we were financially in every in every step of the way.
[48:13] The entire team could come to our business meetings if they wanted to come.
[48:19] We never hid anything from them.
[48:22] We completely empowered them with the tools and the training that they needed to feel a sense
[48:30] of ownership in our in our in our practice.
[48:35] And when you do that, when you have complete buy in, complete a a complete sense of
[48:45] ownership, That's where trust comes in.
[48:51] That's where, again, a sense of ownership comes in, a sense of responsibility, a sense of
[48:59] greater passion with whatever it is you're working on.
[49:05] And I think that that is something that I see too many businesses failing, not necessarily
[49:17] financially, but they're failing their team, they're failing their clients, and and
[49:28] ultimately themselves.
[49:30] You know, it's it's it's not that complicated, but I think that giving people the opportunity
[49:39] to be self responsible, to be self accountable is very empowering.
[49:49] You know, one of the things that I always talk about when it comes to leadership, and this is
[49:55] a topic that's very near and dear to my heart, but that there are people that you think about
[50:01] the the ladder climbers.
[50:03] Right?
[50:04] And very often, there I call I think there are three different ladder climbers.
[50:10] There are people that climb the ladder and leave everybody else behind.
[50:15] There are people that climb a ladder and give other people a a hand up to to climb that
[50:20] ladder with you.
[50:22] And there are people that wanna kick you off that that ladder.
[50:25] Right?
[50:26] And the sooner that you can recognize which which person it is you're dealing with, then
[50:35] the quicker you can you can make a difference.
[50:38] And I will never ever be in a situation where I don't feel like I've completely empowered a
[50:50] team member to become a better version of themselves than they are today.
[50:57] And and and it's pretty easy to recognize the people that want to do better, that want to get
[51:04] better once they're given that responsibility.
[51:08] Right?
[51:09] You have to give them the tools and the training to succeed, but I think that that's
[51:15] that's one of the most powerful lessons that I've learned over the years, and there are
[51:20] many.
[51:21] Again, I could talk about this topic for a long, long time, but I think that that as a as
[51:28] an oh, a business owner, being vulnerable, is another is another key component that
[51:38] acknowledging that you couldn't do this alone.
[51:41] It takes a team of people to be successful, and everybody on that team matters.
[51:48] Everybody on that team is critical, especially with a small business, especially with a small
[51:54] business, to
[51:55] the
[51:55] success of how we operate on a day to day basis, of how we interact with people, and and
[52:02] when whether or not they come back again.
[52:05] So, you know, and I touched on another quickly, I'll I'll say that you as the leader, you have
[52:13] to show up.
[52:14] You have to show up consistently every day, and you the your behavior needs to be predictable.
[52:23] You need to be the the one that has the sense of calm in in crisis management and because
[52:31] everybody around you is gonna reflect gonna be a direct reflection of of who you show up or
[52:37] how you show up that day.
[52:40] Yeah.
[52:40] So true.
[52:41] And you mentioned such a great, lesson, here that, as you said, that you want to make sure
[52:50] that you leave every person empowered.
[52:52] Like, that give him space that he he can see himself more powered and more valuable person.
[52:59] Yes.
[53:00] This is such a great principle to have in life, and it's just another example of great
[53:05] leadership.
[53:07] And I have another question which is about identity, Pamela.
[53:12] After thirty years of achievement, leadership, and service, who did you have to become that
[53:19] the younger Pamela Johnson could never have imagined becoming?
[53:27] Well, that starts a long time ago, but I think that when I when I first graduated from vet
[53:34] school, I thought I was gonna be a veterinarian.
[53:36] I thought I was gonna take care of animals, and and that was you know, I was gonna be a good a
[53:43] good technical doctor.
[53:44] I was gonna do a really good job.
[53:47] Well, I quickly found out that I was not just a veterinarian, but I was managing and leading
[53:55] people and running a business.
[53:57] I was a business owner.
[53:59] And over time, that leadership role shifted significantly in that I was I was be becoming a
[54:11] developer of people at different levels.
[54:14] And that became very, very rewarding for me later in my career.
[54:20] And then, you know, when I sold my business, when I sold the brick and mortar and decided to
[54:29] move into something, I I think, bigger, which is making a bigger a bigger ripple or, you
[54:36] know, a bigger wave when it comes to having a a bigger impact.
[54:43] It's having that identity flexibility, right, is what I call it, to become an an an educator,
[54:54] somebody who empowers other people, somebody who gives other people permission, right, to to
[55:01] be human and provide trying to provide the same thing that I provided in my office in a digital
[55:10] space has been very challenging.
[55:14] It has.
[55:15] But it's also taught me a lot about how to going back to what we were saying, how to
[55:21] develop trust, how to how to develop confidence in in people that are very often misinformed
[55:30] and struggling to find the right answers in in in this space where less than 30% of what you
[55:37] hear or read online is correct.
[55:41] And and that's what that's what we wanna change at Pet Lovers United is to is to give people a
[55:48] place to go that they know they can trust exactly what we're saying.
[55:53] They know that it's gonna be real.
[55:55] They know that this is a real person.
[55:57] It's not an AI bot, you know, you know, giving you some stock answer or a or or a blog, you
[56:05] know, that's that, you know, people are giving opinions without necessarily any scientific
[56:11] backing or scientific proof that that what they're doing is gonna make a difference.
[56:17] In fact, very often, the information that we get out there is not only incorrect, but it's
[56:23] dangerous.
[56:24] I've seen it kill pets many times by by listening or reading to something that they got
[56:32] online.
[56:33] So that's that's been a very powerful lesson for me.
[56:37] I had no idea how much misinformation there is out there.
[56:42] Yes.
[56:42] As you said that investing in people in the most like, the best investment in people
[56:48] because you make this contribution and people grow.
[56:51] And more they grow and awareness and conscious growth and more they become more efficient and
[56:58] productive, and all business can thrive when you focus on people initially.
[57:04] And, also, as you said that, now so much information which, with AI and we know that all
[57:14] these ChargePT are the AI tools, they can hallucinate.
[57:20] And, we cannot just take this information as the true.
[57:24] Right?
[57:25] We have we we can use this to get ideas, but we have always checked, especially if it comes to
[57:34] health or treatment.
[57:35] Right?
[57:36] Somebody or people or pets.
[57:38] Like, as you said, it can be have very negative consequences just applying what is not,
[57:45] checked.
[57:46] And another thing also, I that was resonate also with me that I believe that more people
[57:53] use AI, more valuable will become human.
[57:57] If, like, you being human and having humans speaking with you, I think.
[58:02] Like, although people think that AI will take jobs and will replace people, but just based on
[58:09] what you said, I think that vice versa.
[58:12] Like, more there will be AI, more valuable will be real people communication and impact.
[58:23] Yes.
[58:23] I I think that there's nothing, nothing that can replace the human component.
[58:30] There is nothing in AI that's ever gonna replace what humans can offer in terms of
[58:41] compassion, understanding, communication, empathy, all of those things.
[58:49] AI can't provide any of that, and that's why Pet Lovers United exists today.
[58:56] Yes.
[58:56] Amazing.
[58:57] Amazing.
[58:57] And that is why we are here today.
[58:59] You're speaking and you're sharing about your knowledge, about your experience because you
[59:05] see how important it is, because somebody can listen to us and find the answers to the
[59:11] questions which are very important for them.
[59:14] Yes.
[59:14] That is why these episodes and real human conversations are so important and impactful.
[59:22] Yes.
[59:22] And it's I very much enjoyed speaking with you today, Elena.
[59:27] And I I feel like this is a message that that people are gonna resonate with.
[59:31] So thank you.
[59:33] Yes.
[59:33] Thank you also so much, Pamela, for this such a wonderful conversation.
[59:38] And your experience remind us that great leadership isn't simply about achieving more.
[59:45] It's about building trust, staying connected to your purpose, and learning how to care deeply
[59:52] without losing yourself in the process itself.
[59:56] So thank you for joining us today, Pamela.
[59:59] And for people who are listening to us, if you found this episode valuable, please share with
[1:00:05] other people who might need this information.
[1:00:09] And, of course, follow Pamela Johnson and give us your feedback.
[1:00:15] Ask questions, and we will be happy to answer these questions.
[1:00:19] And, dear Pamela, I'm looking forward to see you again in another next episode, which we
[1:00:26] will speak about where we will speak about the trust.
[1:00:29] I think it will be another very, very interesting and impactful topic.
[1:00:33] Happy to do that.
[1:00:36] Thank you so much, and see you soon.

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