# S3 Ep6: It's Giving.. Happy.. Healing

An episode of [Everybody's Crazy](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1738947925), 17 Dec 2024, 1 h 13 min.

Audio: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/episode.flightcast.com/kwbg7x11ra3ekcmupudc8tmp.mp3

Welcome back to Everybody's Crazy with April and Savannah! 🎙️ Join us as we close out season 3 with two very special guests! We discuss all things therapy and healing with author and psychotherapist Vanessa Bennett and Author and psychologist Dene Logan. You don't want to miss this heartfelt finale! Checkout Vanessa, Dené and Cheaper Than Therapy: https://www.instagram.com/vanessasbennett/ https://www.instagram.com/dene.logan/?hl=enon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY1-RvtCuTlvGgbv3OkVNqQ Merch is here!!: everybodyscrazy.co Follow us on socials: https://www.instagram.com/AprilsOffice https://www.instagram.com/mrs_savannahrj/ https://www.instagram.com/everybodyscrzy/ Full video episodes can be found on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EverybodysCrazy Produced by: THT Studios See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

## Transcript

[0:11] Hey, everybody. Hi, guys. We are here. Episode six. Episode six. Season three. We are wrapping it up. Wrapping it up. I'm so excited for you. I can't even get my joy out. I'm normally scared. So the fact that I'm like, I'm so excited.
[0:32] We have our closeout guests that we are both very excited about. We have Danae and Vanessa here with us. We are going to be speaking all things friendship, all things therapy, and maybe kind of cracking down on how people think in both of those areas and how they process those things. So we are actually going to start out by introducing Danae.
[0:56] them also introducing ourselves and saying what our crazy is because we realize we don't really we don't do that we don't do that like we want to ask everybody what their crazy is but we don't really give ours so hey y'all it's Savannah from Akron Ohio live in LA right now um and I would say that my crazy for today
[1:18] is the fact that I'm about to go on a college visit with my second child. And I don't know how to feel about it. Oh, that's intense. It's exciting. I'm excited. But, like, that means another one is going to be leaving the nest. So that's kind of crazy for me. That's crazy. It's fine. All the emotions. All the emotions. But it's fine. It's good. I'm good. Okay. Well, I'll go next. I'm April.
[1:42] from New Jersey, but live in LA. And my crazy is I am overwhelmed, but curiously excited about being overwhelmed. So I think sometimes when you're overwhelmed, something is coming.
[1:59] And it's like, I feel it coming. So I'm not sure what it is. I'm very excited about what it is because I feel like change has made me a better person. So I'm just trying to sit and being overwhelmed. And I think every day I say, everybody's crazy. What the fuck? Even though I'm quitting cursing in 2025.
[2:26] And just like, Ooh, take a breath. So, um, this summer I got a tattoo on my arm. This is breathe. So, and another tattoo that says slow down. So I look at my arm 60 times a day as a reminder, but, um,
[2:41] Overwhelmed but curious is my crazy. So we're going to pass it to you guys. Please intro yourselves. Tell us all the things first. First and foremost, they're friends. So that was one of the reasons me and Savannah wanted them both on. I think friendship is very important to us. We express to you guys what friendship is and everybody has their version of friendship.
[3:03] not only having two amazing therapists, but also two friends, I think makes it that much more special for us. So I'm going to flip it to you guys, Vanessa. Okay. My name is Vanessa. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist here in L.A. from New York originally. So we have the East Coaster background. And let's see, what is my crazy, I don't know, day of the week? I mean, what is it today?
[3:32] Let's see. It is having a little one. So never feeling like I get enough sleep, never feeling like I get enough me time. Feeling overwhelmed pretty frequently. I feel like that's one of my consistent crazies is to like wind myself up into like a tizzy. Big time.
[3:51] And have to be like, Vanessa, I can breathe. It's going to be fine. You know, I'm not the only one. And, you know, the beautiful thing about having the friendships of the opposites, if you will, we always say we're like the yin to each other's yang is, you know, I'll be all wound up and Danae will be like, just pull a tarot card. And I'm like.
[4:09] Bitch, get out of here with that. I got to do some hard work. The New Yorker in me is like, roll up your sleeves. And she's like, no, just breathe. You're fine. Trust. Just trust. I'm like, get your trust out of my face. I love that for us.
[4:25] Who the Derek Hart is so Savannah Jays? Well, she'll be like, or take a nap. Or just take a nap. Matter of fact, just go home for the day. Disappear. Yeah, disappear or take a bath. It's already established. Savannah's my people. I feel like we very unnaturally, like, on a whim sat the way we did this. Agreed. Yes.
[4:45] Well, I'm Danae Logan and I am also a marriage and family therapist. I work primarily with couples and I'm a group facilitator, um, an author. Now it feels weird to say an author. I wrote a book called Sovereign Love. Thank you, April.
[5:00] I live here in LA. What's my crazy? I feel like, yeah, what day are we talking about? I think most of the time I'm like painfully introverted, you guys. And so I think leaving the house, it's like, do I really need to leave the house? Most of the time I feel overwhelmed by the world around me. And I stay home a lot and I'm really comfy there. Vanessa has to pull me out of the house all the time. Oh my gosh. But it makes me feel like, yeah, I would just cocoon and hermit up forever if I could. Pull tarot cards. That would be fun.
[5:29] I love it. Well, we were just talking about before we started filming the difference in responses. And we've gotten a lot of calls from the viewers and you guys, our everybody gang, to talk really a little bit more deeper around two different reactions when things come up. And I'll call it conflict. But I was saying, like, I always want to discuss. I want to address. And Danae said, like...
[5:57] You know, I was like Savannah typically is like, I'm done with this, like in kind of closes down. And if you could unpack for the viewers what you said earlier, it doesn't have to be the same. But it was such an interesting response for me because it made me understand somebody I talk to a hundred times a day.
[6:17] And I think I'm a bootleg therapist. It made me understand her so much in that moment. I was like, oh, that's the way she feels? And it gave me a level of empathy.
[6:30] that I don't historically have for her. I'd be like, oh man, just come on, man up and do it. And so- It takes her 75 times of saying that for me to finally be like, all right, let me try to figure this out. Yes. So I would love for you to explain for the viewers kind of that response. So unintentionally, we are seated this way, but me and Vanessa are clear. We want to talk about it. We want closure. We want a discussion. We're going to still leave, but we're going to let you know when we can.
[6:59] These two, on the other hand, have decided, don't really need to discuss. You're just not going to hear from me anymore. And I'm not going to really engage that much. So for me, that is wild. Like, and I feel I do now that you explained how she feels. I feel like when people do that to me, I feel a bit abandoned.
[7:23] which comes from a childhood for sure, no question. But can you explain to them what you said? Yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting about this is it depends on the relationship. Yep, I was just going to say that. Because we will be different in different relationship dynamics. And something that I'm obsessed with is polarity and how we are one another's yin to our yang. And what that means is like...
[7:43] If one person likes salty, they'll find someone who likes chocolate. If one person likes to stay up late, they'll find someone who gets up early. And we find people that are sort of magnetized by the way we settle conflict or what feels overwhelming to us. So in what you're saying...
[8:00] there's a way that, you know, whatever my pain point was from childhood is a lot of times what comes to the surface when conflict arises. And so if a lot of times I felt overwhelmed by people's need for me in childhood, what I feel like is like people are overwhelming. They're always asking things of me. They're always like needing more of me. They're entitled to my energy. They're always pulling at it. And I feel flooded like in my nervous system, this feels like too much. And so I shut down.
[8:28] I think a lot of times what people misunderstand about
[8:31] people who are a little bit more avoidantly attached, which means they go inward to sort of solve things for themselves versus like reaching towards someone, which would be the more anxious energy, is the reason people go... She just told me I was anxious all the day too for the first time. Oh my God, this is crazy. And, you know, anxious and avoidant are two sides of the same coin. Yeah, they're both anxious, let's be real. On either side, it's like I control by either pulling someone close or pushing them away, right? And so the avoidant person, a lot of times because of the way they grew up,
[9:00] and relationships were overwhelming or they didn't have people that were able to show up for them in a way that they trusted in that consistency. And so they will just like, I know how to solve this myself. It's my job to take care of this myself. And so that's a little bit our like, you know what? I got it. I don't need anybody. I got me. Forget you. Right. And it's like it's a little bit my like conditioned reaction. Yeah.
[9:24] And it's survival. And it really, when you think about the point of childhood it's pulling from, there's a lot of compassion there because it's like it's overwhelming for me to feel like you need this much of me and that I'm falling short. Like I can't be enough for you. So just forget it. I'm not even going to try.
[9:39] Oh my goodness. Can I really quickly say though, too, with the beginning, when you said, you know, it depends on the relationship. That's so true. And it's also not something we talk a lot about in the world of like pop psychology. It's very like, oh, I'm anxious. I'm avoidant. Like, this is the category. This is the box that I'm in. Right. And we forget a lot of times, number one, that it's like you said, it's based on the relationship. So like, we're going to respond based on the other person's energy as well. Yeah.
[10:04] And also, I think a lot of us say anxious avoidant, and we don't remember that there's also disorganized, which is both. And so I would actually say- Oh, I've got a disorganized friend too. In the last couple years. She was stressing me out too. Yeah, realizing that I'm a little bit more disorganized because it really, really is based on the person that I'm in relationship with. So like with my partner, he is hella anxious. And so he is like-
[10:25] I got to talk. I got to talk. I got to talk. And I'm like, oh my God, can we please stop talking? And I'm very avoidant in my partnership with him. Like I tend to go inward, shut down all the things. Now I would say Danae is actually more avoidant than I am. And so I think even in our dynamic, I can tend to embody a little bit more of the anxious. So I'll do what you're doing, which is like, we got to talk.
[10:47] hello, where are you? Are you there? Why aren't you responding? Why aren't you whatever? But I don't do that with him. Like if he doesn't respond, I'm like, whew, he didn't respond. That's great. I got some space. So funny. So I think it's really based on like the person, the relationship, but also like, are you really hardcore anxious or avoidant? Or are you a little bit more like I swing both ways? Yes, no. And I also, for me, what's really interesting is having a soulmate as a friend. Mm-hmm.
[11:15] So I didn't really get that until now. I've always had friendships, but like a soulmate is like, it just makes me so happy. Like, I love it. Like I have two soulmate friends that I like live and die for, Savannah being one of them. That just like completes me. Like, and my other soulmate friend is just like me.
[11:40] So, like, it's like I met my match. And then this is, like, a polar opposite. But, like, I see her and I'm just like, hmm. Like, I just, like, you know those little emojis that shake? Like, I just want to get into the body of one of those. Like, I love it. It just brings me such joy. Like, and I didn't think that that was possible. Can I just, the couples therapist in me is like, how does that feel for you hearing that? It feels...
[12:06] I mean, I have to say it makes me feel butterflies inside just because like she was saying, I didn't think that you could have a soulmate and a friend. I thought that that was always someone that was romantic or, you know, whatever. But it makes me feel good. It makes me feel seen. It makes me feel, don't, please don't. Please don't. And it makes me feel like I, like,
[12:34] I think a part of being seen, I think, is what you were saying, like a trauma response from when you were younger and why I go in and the way that I react to things. I think it speaks directly to that. Like, I feel like I could be my whole entire self, even though I might be a little bit less janky. She went into the phone.
[12:54] I'm a little bit less available. The anxious me like, where the fuck are you? But to have someone understand that part of me and say, like, I know that that's how she is and it's okay. Like, just give me a minute instead of, like, you know, trying to make me someone that I'm not. Like, it feels really amazing. Like, it feels good. Yeah. And I do wish that for other people. Yeah. Like, I think what we've also seen is, like, that's not normal. Mm-hmm.
[13:17] Like, you know, people don't really have real friendship. Yeah. Like, it's like, what can you give me? Like, we had a friend here with us yesterday recording and she texted me after and she's like, it's so nice to be around women that don't need anything. Like, and I'm like, wow, a lot of people live their life like around that. And I think that that has not been my norm. I've been really lucky to have really great friends and to be really, I'm very loved and
[13:46] I love even the need anything can be so much more than like, you know, you doing things for me or material things. There was something you said, Savannah, in that like I get to be who I am. And I know that April's like, that's just who she is. And I love her that way. To me, that is the most pure expression of love is who you are is safe with me. Yeah.
[14:08] I don't need you to change for me in order for me to love you. Because most of our pain points in childhood were around other people attempting to mold us into something that made them more comfortable. Not loving us for who we were. So when you experience people that love you and aren't, you know, I don't need you to change in order for you to hustle for my love. That just like is so healing to our inner kiddo, you know. Yeah.
[14:27] But that's the thing is like, it's so funny how often you're talking to your inner kid. Every day. All day. Oh my God. I had no idea. I'm like, why do you need to talk to her? Yeah. She's like, hello. She. I don't know about her. Yeah. It's so wild. Like, I think the inner kid is like, you don't realize how fragile that person was. And I remember the other day someone was talking and I was like, oh, I'm talking to their inner child.
[14:57] And I could identify it right away. I was like, oh, my God, I'm becoming a therapist. I was like, but I thought it was so wild. And I changed how I was talking. Yes, love that. Because you saw, like, they were just in a pain. It was like talking. And it was a grown man. And it was like talking to the inner child. And for some of my friendships, I see some of my friends like that.
[15:21] You are like a therapist, but that's a superpower. So, you know, like I will sit and see clients and be like, I can see exactly what you looked like as a child. And I'm starting to experience your inner child. It's wild. You kind of are. It's wild. Like I'll be like, so like when she talks, like that's why I get like jolly like that. Cause I'm like, oh, I see her little like, is she not nice to inner child? Let me ask you a question though, April. Does anybody ever look at you and see and talk to your inner child?
[15:48] So I have had a few experiences like that and it is so intense for me. Yeah. Cause here's what, here's what I'm, here's what I'm gleaning. Yes, please give. You're the one that loves to see the inner child and I love taking care and I love seeing you that way. And I love doing for you and I love. Savior complex. Yeah. Yes. A little bit of that. Yes.
[16:06] I mean, it takes one to know. So that's why I asked, because I think for people like us who are the ones that and we get real joy from that. I mean, it's not fake, but to actually be able to experience that on the receiving end, number one is a little bit more few and far between. Yes. And also feels much more vulnerable because we're we're much we feel better seeing other people than we do being seen. Yeah. My last relationship, I feel like that person saw my inner child. Mm hmm.
[16:36] but then I also experienced abandonment, which was an inner child response.
[16:43] But I was drawing, I believe I was drawing to me what my inner child was familiar with instead of what I needed. I think the people who have seen my inner child, and I could name on one hand. Me too. The number of people that I've even allowed to see my inner child. They see my inner adolescent a lot. I think she shows up a lot more than the inner child because she's like the arms crossed. Like, fuck you. You don't know me. Get out of here. You know, I can kind of lead with that.
[17:09] But I think the number of people, one hand, that have seen the inner child, but also those are the people that I feel the most intense abandonment from. So when we're in disagreement, when we're in some kind of rupture in our relationship, you know, rupture is great. I mean, fighting is great. It is what builds stronger, more intimate, more vulnerable relationships. But that feels more intense when it's somebody that's in that five, maybe, that I've allowed to see.
[17:35] Like Savannah has met my inner child when I've like needed it the most, but it was like the most random of small things. Like I was having a really bad day. And this was the one time my therapist asked me like, when have you seen support in your life? Um, and he was like, what about for this year? And there was one time I was having a horrible day and Savannah like never comes to the office like here. Um, and sorry, sorry, sorry.
[18:01] And then she showed up and I was like, oh my God, what are you doing here? She's like, I feel like you needed a hug today. And I was like, I needed a hug. That makes me want to cry. And it was so random. And I'm such a like, you know, I mean, you see this. And I was like, oh my God. Check on your strong friends, man. Because we're not always okay. No. And it's nice. We pretend like we are, but we're not always okay. It's nice for somebody to.
[18:28] She's like, okay, man, I'm going. See you later. I was like, oh, you're not saying? She was like, nope, got to go. That's all you can. Yeah, yeah. I came for the hug. It was like a nice, it was like a nice, but it was, she literally hugged my childhood self. Yeah. That was not my adult self in that moment. It was like, she was like, oh, you're such a little person. Let me help you out. Like, you know, and I was like, and then I got a boost of energy and then I kind of could feel myself. Yeah.
[18:50] Back in my body. Yes. And here's what's so beautiful about that is you did that for April without her asking for it. I think there's a way that there's something so healing in someone seeing you without a lot of what we do in relationship dynamics is like.
[19:06] demand that people meet me or start titting for tatting. I do this for you and you don't do this for me. And I'm keeping score and all of these things. But when someone sees you, shows up for you, you didn't ask for it. Oh, it's so healing that comes from that. It's so good. Like I, I wish that for myself, like more, because I do it for so many people. I wish for it. I think people really think like, well, what could I do for you? And I think even in my last relationship,
[19:34] he'd come here and he'd sit on the sofa in my office and just hang out. And I'd be like, oh, this is annoying, but cute. Look at that smile. It was cute. It was like- Presence. Yeah, because I couldn't leave the office. Or he'd be like, come on, we're gonna walk across the streets of the park. And no one tells me what to do. So I'm like, okay, we're walking across the street.
[19:52] But it was it showed me that's why that tattoo is on my arm now. I got it this summer to slow down because it was like the smallest of things. People look at somebody like myself or Savannah and think, oh, diamonds, bags, cars. Like, who cares? Artwork also. But, you know, really not. You know, but, you know, again, like for me, those moments are like the precious moments that you want to savor.
[20:18] Something you said was a little interesting to me when you said it is good to fight. Yeah. I mean, it can be. It depends on how you fight. Really? So can you tell me a little bit more about that? Because that stresses me out. I mean, listen, I hate conflict. Like, let's be real. First and foremost, I am wildly conflict avoidant. So one side of my mouth is saying conflict is great. The other side of my mouth is saying I'm going to put my head in the sand and not engage. Yes. But yeah.
[20:45] in the relationships where I have allowed conflict. I actually will say that my partner is probably one of the first people. Danae and I also have kind of, I've strengthened that muscle with her. But I would say my partner is somebody who's really taught me the importance of conflict because yes, like you, I will say the thing, but I will say the thing in a very non-vulnerable way. Me too.
[21:10] Like I'll be like, oh, okay, I'm going to tell you about all the shit that I need to tell you, right? But I'm never going to be vulnerable. And then I'm going to leave. So yes, I like to say it. But really like understanding that there is importance in conflict because it's through conflict so long as you both are committed to being kind to.
[21:33] And being clear and being compassionate. Right. On the other side of it, we see each other more deeply. We love each other more deeply. We understand each other better. Right. And I think that like this that I tend to do is my way of being like, you don't need to get any closer to me.
[21:51] which, you know, keeps me from having those deep, intimate relationships that I actually really desire at the end of the day. And when you're able to come out, like, it's so terrifying. I mean, I'm sure everybody can relate to this feeling of like, I mean, maybe not everybody, but.
[22:07] everybody I've ever talked to where I always say, it's like, you literally feel like you're going to die. I mean, it's that palpable in your body where you're like so terrified to talk about the thing. And when you finally talk about the thing and that person just hears you and isn't like, you're crazy, you know, or isn't like, fuck you, I'm out. And they actually hear you. And you're like, wait, what? The death just happened. And then your relationship is so much better on
[22:37] So they don't like, what if you can, you get up the courage to articulate yourself and then they're like frozen. Cause I feel like I've had conversations like that where you're sitting across, you're like, are you dead? Like, yeah, exactly. Can you say, I hear you? Can you say something? And they're just like in shock.
[22:56] Yeah. And I think that's the hundred percent you can take is I tried, I said the thing, I can be proud of myself for that. But I think so often the reason all of us go to resentment is because the vulnerability of saying the thing is so much more vulnerable. It's just like easier to be mad at people than say, this hurt me when you did this thing. Right. But most of us, well,
[23:19] again, all of us will vehemently defend against being a bad person. It's just what our psyche needs to do. So it requires a lot of ego strength for someone to say, and this is something V says a lot, that this thing that you did hurt me was bad, but you are not a bad person, April. Like you are not fundamentally bad because this thing hurt me. And most people struggle with that differentiation. And so they'll defend against being a bad person. So when you bring this thing hurt me, and I felt some kind of way about that, it's like,
[23:47] I'm just going into my defenses and I'm looking for all the discrepancies in what you're saying versus like, and you know, Vanessa and I had, um, I don't know if I'd called a conflict because a lot of times conflict, what we're calling conflict is intimacy. It's actually like just talking about the things that we're not talking about. And it's a lot of times the conversations we don't have that create the ruptures where there's so much distance that we can't come back from it. But a couple of months ago I was doing my avoided thing and I was sort of like, you know what? Maybe we're just growing apart.
[24:15] And I don't know, like, it just feels different. And she was like, bitch, get over here. What are you doing? Like, why are you not talking to me? And she was like, let's...
[24:23] Let's have breakfast or something. And why did I bring this up? See, I get these mind wipes ever since I was a kid. We understand. But yeah, I think it was, oh, I remember that we were just, you do this amazing job. And I want to like give you this of saying like, here's the 100% I want to take in the thing that was frustrating me. And when you lead with that, that person is so much more open to hearing you. It's a play on words. Yeah.
[24:48] because it's like okay you're owning like this is my part I didn't talk to you about this this went on too long and you know I want to apologize to you for that and then that other person doesn't have to be so defensive and then we're sitting there ugly crying at a cafe but it's like you gotta have a little bit of like and you do that beautifully by the way
[25:05] Thank you. But also friendship, like tying this back, this conversation back to friendship, you know, Danae and I for years, I mean, we've been friends for almost 10 years now. We've talked so many times about this idea of de-centering romantic relationships, right? And how we really need to prioritize the other important relationships in our lives. Yes.
[25:24] That so much of, I would say, men too, but so many of the problems that I see that show up for women relationally is because we've been taught to prioritize and center romantic relationships above all else. Above community, above sisterhood, above anything, work relationships, whatever. And so because we're both so committed to this concept of de-centering those romantic relationships, that was me showing up. And I actually said to her, we're going to practice what we preach.
[25:53] Like, because here's what, you know, yes, I am. I'm married now, which has sounds so weird to say out loud, but there is one week married. She just got married. There is something about it. And it's it's wild how something like that does actually change the way that you see the other person, meaning we're in this.
[26:13] We've made this choice and we're in this. And so we will go toe to toe and we will have these fights. And we had a really bad year, like a year or so ago, to the point where I thought that was gonna be it for us. We came out the other side because there was this certain kind of commitment that we had made. Yes, commitment.
[26:30] But here's what, why does that only exist in a romantic partnership? Why? Because we're married? Because the law says? Like, why isn't it the same with somebody like us? Why is it so much easier for me with a friend to be like, well, we've just grown apart. So I guess that's it. We'll just end the relationship. Like, fuck that. But I guess that was my point to Savannah.
[26:50] these like response is that I agree. Like it requires a hard conversation to say like, hey, am I sure I wanna walk away from this? Am I sure that I don't?
[27:02] want to acknowledge what value you brought to my life. And sometimes you see people are just frozen in their own right. I'll say to Savannah, oh, that's sad. She'll be like, what is that? And I'll be like, they just struggling. And again, going back to me, I can see it. So I have a little bit more compassion in certain ways around that. Because I feel like it does deserve maybe a conversation.
[27:30] And I'll say that you have done a good job of trying to step out of your comfort zone. I think what is disappointing to me at times is when you go to do that and the other person is so damn frozen that they can't even respond.
[27:44] And that goes to therapy. And as you said, frozen, I think if we understand it as a trauma response and we have fight, flight, freeze and fawn and like the freezing is like I am shut down. Like I can't do anything to engage in this.
[28:01] She was like textbook open. Yeah, yeah. I fight. I know that. I mean, and that's a big one. Like, yeah, like that a lot of times people go into their fight response. Like, I'm going to fight for this. We're going to get in this. We're going to. And if you understand that different people have different trauma responses, a lot of us have a fawn response. And that was like a big one. So fawn is like.
[28:22] The truth of what I'm feeling is not in alignment with how I'm meeting this moment. Meaning like if you had a big dog coming at you, barking, growling, you'd be like, nice doggy, good doggy. That's a fun response. I don't actually think you're a nice doggy. I don't actually like you, but I'm doing whatever I need to do to keep you safe.
[28:40] or keep myself safe, excuse me. So, so often many of us learn how to people, please go along to get along, tell you whatever you need to hear so that you don't sever this attachment. So that's fawn. That's a fawn response. And so many of our relationship dynamics from an actual trauma response are,
[28:57] me telling you whatever I think you need to hear. Because when we get really intimate with people, what ends up happening is we know what they can tolerate hearing and what's going to create a rupture in our dynamic. And especially in our romantic relationships and like with women, we will tell men a lot of things that it's like, I know this is what he needs to hear to be.
[29:14] Okay. Right. And so it's, but that's actually a fun response because I'm not being authentic with you, but I'm doing whatever I need to do to keep the relationship intact. And most of us learned that in childhood. Yeah. Yeah. And wait a minute. So it's, it's flight, flight, flight.
[29:30] to run away run away if we do a little bit yes yeah yes yes a little bit of freeze shut down like i can't do anything and a lot of times like if someone's being attacked it's like why didn't you do something why didn't you fight right and it's like they went into the freeze response i can freeze i can freeze too i can i can fight if i really think it's worth it if you're rejecting me i can freeze girl we're a lot more similar so if i'm rejected i'm like okay bye
[29:56] And I'm like frozen. Yes. And I've realized in business, I froze a lot in business, like because my emotions are like devastated. But then I'm like a mask comes down and I'm like frozen and I'm like, I'm not going to let you see me, which which is so interesting to me.
[30:15] And a lot of us got messaging, especially as women in business, like, don't you ever cry in business? Because then people won't respect you. They won't. And so that's a little bit of like a conditioned freeze response. Yeah. I don't do well with crying. Don't come here crying. You do have a lot. Don't try to hug me either. I'm like, hey, guys. All right. Should we take a caller? Hello. What's your name? Where are you calling us from? And what is your crazy name?
[30:43] Oh my God. I'm really on here. Yes, girl. Yes. Oh my God. Hey, y'all. Hey. My name is Naya. Hey, Naya. I just turned 23 last month. And I'm from South Jersey. Okay. I'm from South Jersey too.
[31:06] I know, April, I know. You know, you know, you already know. But, y'all, honestly, I think my crazy is I'm just feeling so out of place. Like, I feel like I'm outgrowing a lot of stuff. Like, I'm in college right now. So I feel like a lot of stuff I'm just outgrowing. Like, all my old friends, not my old friends, but, like, just the college stuff. I'm just outgrowing, like, the current stuff that's going on in my life. I did move to a new city three years ago. Okay.
[31:35] And I just feel like everything that you get is so old to me. And I feel so out of place. Like, I'm not going to lie. I went to a house party the other day. I sat in the corner. And I'm just sitting there looking like, yo, this is not me. Like, because I'm really a party animal. Like, I love a good party. Love a good party. But I'm just sitting in the corner like, yo, like, this is not me. Like, yeah.
[31:56] I can't do it no more. I don't know. I don't know, y'all. I don't think that that is a bad thing. I feel like I'm going to let the therapist talk too, but I'm just going to give my personal opinion. I feel like when you're elevating in life, you feel it.
[32:11] Like when you're starting to move to another level, it's like, okay, something is coming. I'm elevating. And you start to feel different about the things that were familiar to you. Like, you're like, oh, I don't actually get as much joy as I thought out of that. And that means for me personally, I'm like that in a lot of ways is I'm then get curious about what's new. So then I figure out what's my new normal. But I want the ladies, Vanessa and Dee, to like chime in because there's some definite questions.
[32:41] psychological pieces around that as well, I think. I mean, I feel like you nailed it, April. I think we really culturally normalize that from zero to 18, you're going to grow and you're changing. And then it's almost like we imagine that that stops at 18. That's not the case. We continue to evolve and we become different versions of ourselves throughout our lives. We're meant to. And I think if you think about –
[33:05] What a caterpillar is like when it's in the chrysalis becoming a butterfly, it's not comfortable. It's like, I am not who I was. It feels weird. What's going on? And so we need to really normalize through these different life phases. We will feel uncomfortable when we are not the person that we were, but we're not quite the person that we're becoming. We call that the liminal space in depth psychology. And so it's like, yeah, it feels uncomfortable by design. You're changing. Yeah.
[33:30] Yeah, and also in order to make room for who you're becoming and what you're becoming, you have to let go of and you have to shed some of that old stuff. And so I love your word curiosity, April. Go ahead, Naya. I feel so bad because I was literally at the party, y'all, and I had to go back the next day and text everybody like, y'all, I'm so sorry. I did not have an attitude, nothing. They thought I was sad. And I'm like, y'all, like, I promise I'm not sad, but I'm just outgrowing a lot of stuff. And I feel like a lot of people, I just don't want to hang around no more. Like...
[33:59] I don't know. I felt so bad yesterday. I was just like, y'all, I'm sorry. Yeah. I think also it's like giving yourself the grace and the space to be human and to change. And here's the thing that I tell clients all the time. When you start entering into this space of transformation, it's really hard to hear, but you are actually going to lose friendships. You actually are going to let go of old relationships. And so it's,
[34:25] Yes, that's sad. There's going to be grief in that. Don't try to run from it. Really try to sit with it and be with it because it's the reality. It's going to happen. You can't evade it. And so, but in saying that, you are making more space for people to come into your life that you have more in common with now than you are.
[34:43] Yeah.
[34:59] It's going to be uncomfortable, like Danae said, but it's almost like getting curious about the one thing I mean, Savannah, say, Naya is like get comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's right. And I remember when my therapist I didn't know that that was called whatever you just called it. But going from where you were to and you're not quite where you want to be and you're in this limbo. It feels so odd. And listen, I'm way older than you and I'm in the same limbo.
[35:25] And you'll be in there again. Yeah. And again. No, no, no. I'm not trying to come back here. But okay. I'm done. I'm 60. I'm done. I'm tired. I'm tired. This is going to be the last hurrah. But we're proud of you. And I think acknowledging the space you're in is a big accomplishment. And if I could have done that at 23, I would be so much bigger and better of a person. So me and Savannah are proud. Yeah. You're doing this, girl. You got it. Me and my friends. Well, like my best friend. She lived far away from me.
[35:55] My best friend, oh, we talk about y'all all the time. We love to finish April down. We love y'all, bro. We love you too, Nia. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much. Bye. You too. Bye.
[36:11] Yeah. That in between space. How many times do you think people see that in their adult? Good question. Well, every other week adulthood, like once you get like once you get like 20, I don't remember really knowing what that was until I was in my late 30s.
[36:30] You know, what's challenging about our culture, and we talk about this a lot, is we don't have any containers for these initiatory periods that are a really natural aspect of life. Like in indigenous populations or more collectivist societies, they sort of ritualize. Like you are this one version of self and we are going to support you and ushering you through this threshold of initiation of who you're becoming. But when we're in the liminal space that we were talking about, we're sort of like,
[36:57] I don't know what this is. Why is this so hard? Why do I feel like I can't feel alone? Yeah. And so it's really normalizing that we will have several, what we like to call dark nights of the soul throughout our lifetime, where I just like everything just feels like it's not clicking and I can't find my center. And that is a little bit what it is to expand and become a new version of ourselves. And so that is so wild. And if someone would have told me that at 18, I would have been all of us. What? Yeah.
[37:26] Young, young people, listen up. Listen up. This is the calling. You're going to have 78 versions of yourself. Yeah, I feel like that is like, that's such a enlightened moment for me. Just to hear somebody say that. And even when you say, I'm going to have another one. You will.
[37:47] pissed. I saw your reply. I was like, oh, I let you have your piss. I'm like, okay, well, call me when it happens. I'm like, not even ready. I'm like, there's gonna be another one. Like, I just think we're going through it. And I feel like maybe if I would have accepted it a long time ago, I would be so much more comfortable in the journey, but I'm still like, in a contractive state.
[38:10] Well, you're building muscle, right? I mean, this is why, you know, God, this new generation coming to therapy at, you know, 15, 16, 17 years old. I mean, Naya, right? In college, we didn't have that shit. I don't know about you guys, but I wasn't going to therapy when I was in college. But yeah, it's a muscle, right? It's like this muscle for discomfort. It's the muscle for like not knowing. It's the muscle for like the reality of, oh, I have no control over this situation. You know, all of these things that we actually learn and we work through and,
[38:36] that we didn't really start developing until we were probably in our 30s. Right. That I think some of these I say kids, but some of these kids are probably developing at 17, 18 years old. Yeah. And what do you guys just before we take another caller? What is your theory on therapy if you don't have the financial means and the access for it? Where do you recommend people kind of start?
[39:00] Well, two things I want to say, because I think this is important, because there's a way that, first of all, we have more access to information than we ever have before, and all information is not created equal. Like, everybody's got a lot of pop psychology circulating. Everybody's an expert. There's a way that we can sort of really...
[39:19] pathologize aspects of what I believe are human experience. So one of my favorite philosophers, Jay Krishnamurti used to say, there's nothing about being profoundly adjusted to a sick society that is adaptive, right? So it's like, it's no measure of good health to be profoundly adjusted to a sick society. And there's so much about our society that it's like, this has been maladaptive forever. So what we call sort of...
[39:47] mental illness a lot of times is response to their problems within our society that we have not been conditioned to see as problems. I remember one of the first black therapists I went to actually, and for those of you who've never been to therapy, when you see a therapist and you're using your insurance, they have to give you
[40:04] a code, like an insurance code. And I was like looking at the diagnosis, like, what does that mean? What am I? So I was like, what do I have? She was like, it's, I'm just going to give you dysthymia. And she's like, this is what I give to all black people. Because basically we have like a low level depression from what it is to grow up in a white supremacist society. Right. And I was like,
[40:21] That's fascinating, right? Like it never occurred to me. But there are all of these things that we are being confronted with societally all the time that, yes, they're overwhelming to us because we weren't really meant to live like this. Now, that being said, I think there's a way we've moved away from things like…
[40:38] Some of these religious institutions that were really supportive of us, I think there are ways that we can find community in other ways other than just seeing a therapist. And this has become important to me because to your point, April, not everyone has access to what is normally like $200 a session for therapy.
[40:56] psychotherapy, but there are 12-step groups for almost everything, right? So if you have codependency, if you have a shopping addiction, if you have like exactly all the things, you can find a 12-step group in anywhere in the country that you live, but also online now. So that's a way that support and
[41:13] normalizing some of these challenges of our human experience can be accessible to everyone. But also like, I love to get into like whatever your spiritual center is and find community there. And it's, you can go for free and you can have fellowship and mirroring and all of the things that are essentially what Vanessa and I are doing in therapy is like making you feel like you're seen, you're less alone in whatever it is that you're going through. I know I said a lot, but like these things are important. I also feel like reading, like when I read
[41:41] Like it was something small, but when I read Glennon Doyle's Untamed, I was like, oh, this is why I feel that way. Like I feel like also reading things and educating yourself on just what you thought was normal, because I do think what I thought was normal is not normal or what I was raised is normal anymore.
[42:02] is not my normal. Um, so it's just, those resources exist. Like even I remain very curious. So when you were talking about fight, flight, phone, I'm like, Oh my God, man, I want to know everything about it. Like, so I could be on here like, Hmm, it's giving fun. Like, you know, like, but again, I feel like there are things that exist, your podcast,
[42:25] Melissa Wood, all these people that are a part of our community that are free ways of listening. You just like you listen to music, you can seek that. And I think people are very much so wanting to be handed, like do step A, B and C. And you're going to feel relieved. And I'm like, and even...
[42:45] A and B may work for me. I'll come back and Savannah be like, I ain't doing that. That doesn't work for me. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm going to do this or I'm going to try this or she'll try something else and give it to me. And I'll be like, girl, I almost died. I ain't doing that no more either. And I think that is the curiosity of what really makes you tick.
[43:02] I feel like people have forgot to operate in that space nowadays. And if you can just pay attention to how it makes you feel, whatever the thing is, like you were naming all of these beautiful resources, right? But if you feel empowered when you read Glennon Doyle's book and you're like, God, I feel so seen and like, this makes me feel better, then that's useful, right? But if whatever it is makes you feel like you're a little bit more broken and now I've got this pathology and all that.
[43:26] Just like, and I've got this disorder, then like maybe that's not supportive. Like, no. I want to also talk about groups because I think you were talking about like spiritual centers and finding community, but it's funny how often people will come to individual work and they will be a little nervous about doing the group work. So whether it's the 12 steps, whether it's the spiritual centers, whatever. And I love to break down the stigma and the fear around the group work because in my experience, group work can be like,
[43:55] the light, the fire under the ass of the even individual work. Because there is something about being in a room of people, even if you're not all there for the same purpose, let's say you're not a 12 step, but like Danae and I have a community and we keep it very low cost per month so that people can have access. Like we're very committed to this idea. Where would the people find that community at?
[44:15] It's called the cheaper than therapy community. Okay. Yeah. It's cheaper than therapy. It's cheaper than therapy. Yeah. There you go, guys. But like getting in a room of 20, 30 people, right? And even just listening, maybe you're, you know, you're too nervous to talk and having somebody be like, well, let me tell you about how my mom used to do this thing and it used to make me feel this way and da, da, da, da, da. And so now I show up this way in my relationships and you're going, holy shit, I do the same just like we were all doing. Holy shit. I do the same thing, right? It really is like a shot. Like it will...
[44:45] amplify some of the reading. It will amplify some of the work you're even doing in that individual setting. So don't poo-poo the group work, man. It's really powerful to find a group that works for you to what Denae was saying. And so much of this is accessible online, like our groups online. So wherever you are in the country, but there's, it doesn't have to be ours. There's tons of them, but you can go online and find these resources. And the other thing I think is, and I say this to men a lot because men really will come to things and they're like, you
[45:10] men don't talk like this. And I don't, I don't know how to like talk to my guys about the stuff we're talking about in these groups. And I'm like, amazing. So you model it, like get three of your friends together and you show them like, if you start, then they feel a little bit safe following
[45:26] we can start our own groups. It's like, let's go on like conscious hikes together. Let's do things that are a little bit away from numbing and checking out. And shit talking, right? Complaining, like the things that we usually do. Be conscious around like, let's be vulnerable with one another and make that a practice. Yeah, for sure. Should we take a caller? All right. Hello. Who are we speaking to? Where are you from? And what's your crazy? Hi, Big Sam. Thank you guys for letting me come through.
[45:56] So quick thing. I'm 26. I lost my mother at the age of 20. And I guess for about six years now, I would say, I've been feeling like I've been in this rut.
[46:27] It's just like, I just feel like no matter what I do or how I do it, I'm just going to be in this constant grief. You know, like I don't know. It's just the grief thing is very difficult to explain. It's like one day I'm okay, one day I'm not. And it's just grief. That's basically, you know, going through your 20s is hard enough. But going through your 20s alone is,
[46:57] almost impossible. So I guess that's why I'm here, just like to get some advice on my grief and just how does one get through it without falling flat on their face. So...
[47:12] Yeah. We didn't catch your name. What's your name? Victoria. Victoria. So this is April. Obviously, I've experienced grief. I was a little bit older than you. I was 33. You know, I feel like death changes you.
[47:30] And I felt like that was my first experience of coming the new version of myself. And then I automatically had no choice to become that person, which was a 33 year old widow, which was like crazy to me. But then I also went into that transformation and froze for eight years. I was frozen for eight years. My husband's now gone 11 years. And I like always say to Savannah, I was like, I think I unfold like,
[48:00] year eight, like I started unthawing all the emotions. You know, I will say be kind. The personal advice I will give you and then I'll pass it. For me personally,
[48:13] Be kind to yourself. Grief, to me, it never gets easier. Yeah. And you just become a new version of yourself that you are like, who is this? Like, and it can be somber and it can be jolly. I tend to lean on that.
[48:30] doing the glass half full and really remembering all of the good things and trying to keep that as a highlight and knowing that someone is watching and being proud. And, you know, I've done a lot of work. I've done a lot of spiritual work and.
[48:48] mushroom journeys and all kinds of stuff i didn't see my past husband all the things i've done all the things honey but i feel like you have to learn how to find your new version of joy like life's not over for you um you are still so damn young um and so much is possible so
[49:10] I think you have to figure out how to get back in your body and find that joy and that hope that probably your mom would have been like, girl, what are you doing? Like we year six, let's go. Come on. You need to get married. You got to date, go to the club. You know, I don't know what kind of mom you had, but I'm pretty sure she was a cheerleader for you. It sounds like. So I feel like you have to lean heavily into that instead of
[49:34] the sadness that she's gone because I don't think people are ever really gone. I don't, I really don't believe they are. Um, so, and I tell my kids that, you know, my youngest son was three when my husband passed and he, the only thing he remembers about my husband is that he smoked cigarettes and
[49:54] which is funny and terrible at the same damn time. I'm like, that's all you remember? Like, you know, but he was so small, he doesn't remember anything else. So...
[50:05] I think it is, he grasped to what he's trying to realize is a version of his dad. Like the lucky thing for you is that you were formulated by your mom. Like you got all of that time. Also, one of the things that was really helpful for our family is we volunteered at a couple of like volunteer centers where kids had lost parents at a young age.
[50:34] So me and my boys, they were 10 and three when my husband passed. And we volunteered at certain centers and groups where they got to talk to other kids about this is what it looks like on year five. This is what it looks like on year seven. I think step outside yourself because somebody needs to hear your story and you need to hear somebody else's story. And life's not over.
[50:58] Life is not over, girl. Listen, I still am trying to figure it out. And it does not get easier. And I can get very frustrated and annoyed. Like, the fuck? Why you leave me here? And why I got to pay all the bills, dude? You leave no real money for my ass. Like, it's expensive ass kids, you know? But again, I laugh at it instead of crying. And the one thing I did learn in therapy, and you guys need to confirm this, is that the same emotion you cry with is the same one you laugh with, my therapist said.
[51:28] And I just when my husband first died at the funeral, I was like laughing and people like, are you are you OK? And I went to therapy and I was like, why do I think everything is so damn funny? And he was like, because you don't want to cry.
[51:43] So I find humor in things that probably not that humorous, but you know, it is my normal of like, it's going to be okay. And I try to lean into that instead of just breaking down and listen on his 10th year anniversary, I was a wreck. I was so frozen. I couldn't even move. And I didn't even realize it was the day I was like, Oh my God. But I mean, I think you realize in your soul what, what that was symbolic for, for you from a trauma response.
[52:13] But I'm going to pass it to Dee and Vanessa to give you some therapy advice.
[52:19] Everything you said, April. I also want to say I've worked closely with a few people who have lost, especially mothers. That's a whole other realm, right, of loss that I think a lot of women especially. Yeah, whole other realm. But here's what I will say too. We've spoken a little bit before you called in about what our culture has taught us is okay and is normal and,
[52:43] And a lot of us trying to push ourselves through grief and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and get back out there and live our lives is because we've been taught that it's not okay to grieve. That there's something wrong with us if we're on the floor in a puddle of tears. And there's not. I mean, I'm here to just tell you unequivocally there's not.
[53:07] And everybody's system is different and everybody grieves differently. There's no one size fits all. It's going to come in waves. I love what you said, April, about what your therapist said about it's the same emotion that you laugh with. Because there's also something really important to remember that if you did not have grief, you would not have joy. There is no light without dark. So...
[53:31] It's not that it makes that dark feel any better. I'm not trying to take that away from you because I actually think you do need to feel it. You actually don't need to pretend that it's not there. That's not helpful, actually, because you're not going to integrate that feeling. You're just going to kind of skip over it and it'll come up and bite you in the ass later on. Trust me.
[53:48] but really starting to maybe develop a practice of being with and sitting with those feelings of grief and those feelings of loss and those feelings of sadness and allowing them to be there and have space and, and honoring them because they need to be honored. They're important. Because if you don't honor them, your joy will be dimmed later. It's a capacity thing. You know, if we don't have the capacity to really feel our grief, we're not going to have the capacity to
[54:17] That's what made me, that's what made me seek help. Yeah. And year nine. There's nothing wrong with you, girl. Is I was frozen. Yeah. Because I would not feel the grief. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with us when we're sad and we're frozen and we can't move. I hate being sad. I know. I know. And that's a lot of what we've been taught.
[54:34] Yeah. And I think there's a way that we can hold the grief as such a beautiful expression of how big the love was. I think what Vanessa is speaking to is that grief is not a linear process and that our society really makes it like you're not over this yet. Like, no, I'm never going to get over this. That's not what it is to feel this type of love. But I got to say, yes, the mama in me just like wants to wrap my arms around you because I think –
[54:59] losing your mama at 20 years old and just feeling like there's so many developmental stages that I haven't reached yet. Even like where my brain is developmentally is not complete. And to lose my mother at that point is really destabilizing. But I think, you know, I always kind of want to bring things to a soul level a little bit. And if I look at like, why was this the hand that I was dealt? And I love what you were saying, April, about
[55:24] how we can get into, if this is the hand that I was dealt, how do I alchemize it into something that I can be of service with, right? Like how do I use my particular pain point as like the hand that I was given so that I can show up in the world a specific way? And I think that there's something about when I...
[55:42] have agency around the thing that's really painful, it can feel like momentum. It can feel like I'm doing something with this that makes me feel good, better. So I would say like, how do I serve? How do I get in there with like maybe young women who have lost mothers or maybe mentor young girls who could use mother energy and you can pour some of that love into them. But just holding you in my heart, I really felt that. And I felt when you were speaking too, I started to just like
[56:11] I think we really need to normalize holding that the pain is this big and that it doesn't just dissipate like that. That's not what it is to be human. Yeah, agreed. We're sending you some love. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Grief gets you every time. Yeah. We just don't talk about it. We just don't talk about it. No, I think it's embarrassed by it. I think it was the hardest thing.
[56:41] I was in shock and I still like, I still am in shock. I think I'm still figuring it out. Like, and here, like, like you said, like helping, like, Oh, Oh, come on. You got it. Like, I just want to be like, you got it. You got it. You know? Like, and I mean, that's what I say to my kids. And they've gone through waves and their version of depression and anger. And I mean, it's so many emotions in grief. Yeah. And they can also feel quite helpless. Yeah.
[57:11] for the person experiencing and trying to help and the person going through it. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a voicemail. Hi, my name is Destiny and I'm from Northwest Arkansas. I'm from Arkansas.
[57:24] And my crazy is I like to let people gaslight and motivate me and take advantage of me and also make me feel guilty when I 100% know I'm not. I have such a big heart. And it's like, it's crazy to me because I just let it repeatedly happen, especially from the people that are close to me and my friends, family, significant other, my little boo thing, whatever they are. I just let them make me feel like I'm crazy, which is crazy to me.
[57:54] deep down care for everybody in my life and love everybody to the point where I, it's hard for me to set boundaries with anybody. And I just let it, like I said, keep happening. And it makes me sound like I'm the crazy one, but then also it's, again, I'm not, which is crazy to me. So yeah, that's my crazy and thank you for listening. And I hope you ladies have a wonderful day and love y'all. Bye.
[58:18] Oh my God, I love her. I love how much everybody loves y'all. It's so sweet. They think we're like little doll babies. Over here trying to figure it out. I'm giving Chucky. I can't. I feel like.
[58:34] destiny please can we talk about boundaries and you guys should leave that today and I are giving eyes over here we're having big feelings destiny we love you we love you and with all the love we're about to go in with so much love I would just preface because there's big things that you said you started off with I like to I heard that too right yes
[58:54] And that's important because we don't do anything without a payoff. And I believe you, you like this for some reason. And most of the time, I think whether it's the people pleasing or, you know, all of these things that Vanessa and I actually talk about is like pretty manipulative behaviors. And it can be hard and like wince a little bit when we think about like people pleasing as manipulative. Right. And it's like, first of all.
[59:18] It's not authentic. And so you're not letting this other person see you. A lot of times there's a contract between the two of you that I will please you and you will be something for me. Right. You won't leave me. You will show up in a certain way. And that other person's not a part of that contract. Right. They signed up without knowing it because you're not showing them your authentic self. Right.
[59:39] So there's that, but there's also this thing of just really getting into the curiosity around like, what do I imagine would happen if I said the thing? Most of the time, like we were saying before, we know when we're really intimate with people, what they can and cannot tolerate hearing.
[59:58] And so we will go along to get along a lot of times because we don't want to be abandoned, because we don't want to sever the attachment. And I often say, I don't think we can heal more until we're willing to face a little bit of exile, until we're willing to have people step away from us. And that really requires me...
[1:00:15] learning to build a solid sense of self a little bit. Right. So like I am a lot of times my identity is wrapped up in like, I'm the good one. I'm the one who always does all of these things for other people. I'm the martyr. Right. I hate a martyr. I am a martyr. I used to be a lot of work. Yeah.
[1:00:34] But that's actually really manipulative, right? And so it's like I got to take ownership of the way I've created an identity around people being a certain – or me being something in people's eyes. But me keeping people at arm's distance a lot of times by not letting them actually see the truth of who I am.
[1:00:53] And here's the thing about the martyr and the person who's like the caretaker. We think that we are, I'm such a nice person. I do all these things for all these people and they don't do this. They don't love me and they gaslight me and I allow them to walk all over me and I'm just so nice. But here's the thing. You're doing that stuff for you. You're not doing that for them. That actually has nothing to do with them. That has everything to do with you.
[1:01:17] And again, that's why we preface with with love. Some of this shit is really hard to hear because you have to really look in the mirror. If we say we really want to change because you don't have to change. I mean, you can keep this shit up forever. That's your decision to make. But if you really want to change these patterns, you've got to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and get a bit of like a cold dose of reality, if you will. Yeah. Around. Well, to Danae's point, I'm manipulating these situations because I'm afraid of what will happen if I'm honest. Yeah.
[1:01:44] they will leave me, right? Or they will stop loving me. Or, you know, I'm afraid that I'm too much. And so I have to make myself smaller. I'm afraid, you know, all of these reasons that we do this. And that's the part that you can give yourself the love and the compassion. This shit comes from somewhere. It's not like all of a sudden you just started being like this. You learned it, right? We were talking about inner children earlier. That inner child learned that this was the only and the safest way for you to show up in relationship and maintain that relationship.
[1:02:10] Right. But now the adult version of you is starting to kind of look down and go, um, excuse me, this doesn't feel in alignment anymore. I don't like this. And so now you have an opportunity to say, okay, I got to look in the mirror and do some work. You know? The only other thing I want to add to is like, I have never met a people pleaser or an over functioner who was not either so aware of the difference in what they were giving versus the other person and what they were giving. Tip for tap.
[1:02:34] And like over functioners, a lot of times it's like, I'm so sweet. I'm so loving. And then when I sit like with a couple, I'm like, do you feel loved? Do you feel? Because a lot of times they feel the passive aggressive energy in your resentment that I'm always giving. Right. So it doesn't actually feel as loving a lot of times as we imagine that it does. And so it's just. Yeah.
[1:02:54] I feel like you're having a response to this. And gaslighting. Like nobody can gaslight you without your participation. Like a little bit, like say the thing. That is not an alignment with truth for me. And that's some of the like, I got to, to Vanessa's point, take responsibility for staying with myself. Do you think that comes from a worth issue?
[1:03:12] A lot of the stuff comes from a worth issue. Almost all of it. It's like self-worth work, right? Yeah. The choose me wound and the worthiness wound, I would say, are the two things that Danae and I talk about probably the most because it's probably the source of almost all of these codependent behaviors. Oh my God. I love you guys so much. So many. It's so good. I have one last comment. What is your theory on journaling? Oh my God. I love journaling.
[1:03:38] You don't love journaling? I don't dislike journaling. I'm not a personally like a huge journaler, but I love the idea of it. I'm more of like an auditory processor or like I like to verbalize. I'm a verbal processor. So not necessarily talking at people, but just kind of talking things out. So like with a friend, with a therapist. I think it's actually really important for us to figure out. What is that called again? Oh.
[1:03:59] Like a verbal processor or an audio processor. I think I may be a verbal processor. I'm not a journaler. No, but I call you and verbalize everything. Yes. If I journal, I can't prompt. So it's usually just someone explained it to me. It's called...
[1:04:14] Like word vomit, basically. But that's journaling though. That actually is journaling. And I think it's similar to meditation. We have an idea of like what something is supposed to look like. And so we're resistant a lot of times because like I'm not sitting in my journal. You're doing it perfectly. And I don't journal like that. I am constantly like it's almost like a...
[1:04:32] like a doodle board. Like I'm constantly in the space of like getting out my thoughts. It's almost like a way that I, it becomes like creative release for me a little bit. But I think we think of journaling as something that keeps us resistant to journaling. Cause it's like, I need to sit down and like, dear diary. Like, yeah, it's not my experience. There has to be something that I have to like that I'm going to write about. It can't just be stream of consciousness. Yeah. But do you prefer to talk about it or do you talk to yourself?
[1:05:00] I like to just go through the motions with myself. I feel like if I do journal, usually it's like to remind myself of a point that I made to myself where I'm like, okay, I need to remember this so I can practice it. So I can like, you know, figure my stuff out with this particular thing. Cause it was great and I loved it and it needs to stay here, but I would rather talk to a friend or talk to someone. I want to hear the other like perspectives on it. Because I think that that's a good way for me to like, like you,
[1:05:29] Having perspective is a good way for me to kind of figure out which way I want to go with the- Not too much in your head. Bouncing it off something. Yeah. Just another thought process on whatever the thing is. But there is science behind it. I mean, I didn't mean to really poo-poo journaling. I do love it. And I do have a journal. It's just not like a daily journal.
[1:05:49] practice for me. But there is something really important that a lot of people don't realize. There's actually science behind why therapists are always like, do you journal? Do you journal? Do you journal? Because there is a way that the different hemispheres of our brain process information and process language. And so when you're feeling a sensation and emotion in your body, there is something that happens in the different hemispheres. I'm not explaining it a hundred percent scientifically accurate here, but when I'm actually able to write something out,
[1:06:17] it's actually a way that my system processes the felt sense of the emotion in your body. That if you don't do that, a lot of times it doesn't get processed. Like it gets a little stuck. And again, I'm not speaking to the science accurately, but there is a lot of study around mindfulness that shows that the writing and what it takes from your brain to actually write is a way for you to like transmute and actually like work through the felt sensation of emotion. I feel like when people are not sure where to start for work,
[1:06:46] Just writing down how you really feel on paper with no one to judge it. Yeah. It's like a good start. Yeah. Because I feel like people are always calling you or asking us like, where should we start? Like, and I'm like, I don't know. But also some people don't know what they feel.
[1:07:01] So that's a tricky. Calm down. We said we was closing it out. Yeah. And I think it's a lot of times called the brain dump. And so when people have a lot of anxiety, I will say like it's so much in your head that a lot of times like dumping it out and putting it pen to paper can be a great way to start. You're absolutely right. Like that's just like just write it out. Write what I'm worried is going to happen. What would I do if this thing happens? Like I like to say, follow the tape through. If that happens, what would you do to solve the problem? And it gives a little bit of like me not having to hold it all inside of me.
[1:07:31] I figured it out and I'm okay. Do you go back when you journal? Do you go back or do you leave it in the paper and that's it? I always be going back. You do? I go back and read it. I never go back. I was out of my fucking mind. I do the same thing. Oh, this motherfucker. Like two years, three years. I'm like, oh my God. Do you journal in your phone, in your notes? No. I write. I like to write. You actually like write it. I like to write and I'll go back. And I have the same journal as my personal journal.
[1:07:58] experiences as I've used on both of my mushroom journeys. So like in there, I'm like, oh, yeah, I had myself fucked up. Like, you know what I mean? Because I like really was like, okay, I understand. And I feel like in a year I've come such a long way. I've been like, wow, look at that. See, I deeply admire the like going back and self-reflection. I don't do that. I love that. I love to see like...
[1:08:25] how delusional I was. Yeah, same. How like, huh? Like, oh, you're crazy. Or like, oh, I still gotta do that. Oh, he's crazy. Oh, oh, I love a list. Yeah, I'm like, oh shit. I'm not as good as I thought it was. Yeah, no, 100%. I think I'm really in pursuit of my best self. Yeah. So I'm just like, whatever it takes, because I really just want to be happy. Like, and I feel like,
[1:08:52] I wasted, not wasted, but I was frozen for so long that I want to reclaim my time. And I feel like people forget about time. Like you realize like when death happens, you realize time is taken. That's right. Or like every little moment that I talk to Savannah or Adele or like all of my friends. And like for me, my time is like...
[1:09:15] I use every baking second in the day. I wake up at 4 a.m. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do my Hoffman. I'm going to get in the bath. I'm going to do things. Like, I just like anything that brings me joy. I go eat sushi by myself. I eat these Swedish fish here. Like, it could be the smallest thing. I'm just like, every little bit is important to me because the things that exist in my life, I actually feel like I have enough. Right.
[1:09:38] Yeah. Can I just reflect a little bit that we were talking about the dark night of the soul and that we don't have any sort of contextualization for that. And what I think of, you were in the winter of your life. None of that was wasted. You needed to go inward for a while to really be in that contemplative space, that spiritual solitude. And when you came out, look at you, you were like the embodiment of like radiant light emanating. And you needed that so you could shine in the world. It was long though. I gotta,
[1:10:08] No, shit. I'm trying to be out in these streets. I'm like, come get me. You know, I mean, I just feel like it was so much time. It was perfect. It was perfect. I just am like, ah. So now I just try to optimize every moment because similar to Victoria that called in, I was frozen.
[1:10:29] But I wasn't frozen with depression or like grief. I was just frozen and like, it felt like I lived outside of my body. But look how you held space for Victoria. It was so beautiful because you had that time, right? You know, like you've walked through that. So you become a guide for her, right? Oh, Victoria, call us, DM us. Well, guys, thank you. Episode...
[1:10:55] Six. No. Yeah. Episode six. Episode six. Yes. And this was the best, most joyous way to end. Like, everybody's crazy. Like, we were smitten with you guys. And I called Vanessa. I was emailing. You know, we book our own. I was like, I'm getting married. She's like, can we talk tomorrow before you leave? I was like, okay, I guess. I was like, I just have to have them. And we won.
[1:11:19] people to know that this is normal. Yes. Like, and we're speaking to so many women of color and, and women in general and mothers that like the, the normal that we see is our new normal. Like both me and Savannah's new normal too.
[1:11:35] So we thank you guys so much for being here with us. I see why everyone loves you so much. Incredible. Figuring out the love. I'm probably getting this too. Savannah had to post it a few times on vacation. I went ready. I went ready. She said she went ready. She said, listen, she'll come back to me. I'm going to come back for sure. Should we do a book club? No.
[1:11:57] God, you're making me so happy. I'm not even going to pretend. I love it. Okay, well, you come to my book club. I'm here for it. Okay, thank you, ladies. Alrighty, bye.

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