# Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas: How to Deal With Conflict

An episode of [Ground Truths](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1728526108), 5 May 2025, 29 min.

Audio: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/162841819/8ff2d261fd7da2883430549151f434e2.mp3

In our divided world we face or avoid conflicts on a frequent basis. I turned to Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas to find out the best strategies to deal with these, including having them take on a mock conflict between each other on the merits of Covid research. Audio file You can also find this on Spotify and Apple podcasts with Ground Truths. The video is also posted on YouTube Transcript with Audio Links Eric Topol (00:06): Well, hello. It's Eric Topol with Ground Truths, and we're going to get into a new book called Conflict Resilience: Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In, and we're lucky to have its two authors, Bob Bordone, who is a Senior Fellow at Harvard Law School, and Joel Salinas, who is a physician, neurologist, a clinician scientist at NYU. So welcome both Bob and Joel. Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas (00:34): Thank you for having us. Yeah, looking forward to the conversation. Eric Topol (00:37): Yeah. So first, how did you guys get together? This is a pretty diverse, you got law and medicine, usually they don't talk to each other very much. Bob Bordone (00:46): Well, we were very fortunate. I mean, we basically were friends, but part of that friendship, I think emerged from work that I do around conflict issues in the Mass General system and then just the larger, bigger Mass General, Harvard community. Yeah, so this began really as a friendship where we were each swimming in very different waters, but then as we would start to talk, we realized there was a lot of connection and maybe the possibility to bring two different disciplines together in a way that might be practically useful and make an impact. And even when we started writing this, which was during Covid, what seemed to be some pretty polarizing times that were unlikely to resolve by the time the book would come out. Eric Topol (01:44): Yeah, well you sure hit it with the divisiveness and the polarized world that we live in is perhaps worse than ever, certainly in all my years, and probably long before then as well. So this topic of resilience, it's a very interesting concept because some people might think of resilience as just being tough. So go into a conflict and just go heavy tough. That obviously is not what you're writing about. And I guess maybe we can start off, what was the goal here? Obviously, there's other books that have addressed this topic, I'm sure, but yours is somewhat unique in many respects because it brings in the science of it and many strategies perhaps that have never been developed. But when you got together, what was the mission that you set out to do? Joel Salinas (02:38): Yeah, well maybe I can start out and then you can add on. So my research has been all around understanding how social relationships influenced brain health, and one of the things that I was seeing was social isolation and loneliness had been steadily increasing. Want to figure out what kind of interventions or what are the factors that are involved here? And I think one of the things that has stood out is just the difficulty with being able to navigate conflict in different contexts. And so, the idea around conflict resilience is really, even though there's been lots of books on what to say and what specific tactics to use, I think that there was this skillset around just being able to sit with the discomfort of that disagreement, which will ultimately help make it much more useful to take on those tactics. One way to think about it, if it's like all these tactics are like learning how to cook with a set of recipes in the kitchen, what we're really proposing here is that you also need to be able to stand the heat of the kitchen to even be able to cook. Eric Topol (03:47): Okay. Go ahead, Bob. Bob Bordone (03:49): Yeah, and I would say I was starting to write about my first kind of piece on this topic where I use the word conflict resilience was in 2018, and it really came from an observed dynamic that I was seeing in my…

## Transcript

[0:06] SPEAKER_02: Well,
[0:06] SPEAKER_02: hello,
[0:06] SPEAKER_02: it's Eric Topol with Ground Truths,
[0:08] SPEAKER_02: and we're going to get into a new book called Conflict Resilience,
[0:12] SPEAKER_02: Negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In.
[0:16] SPEAKER_02: And we're lucky to have its two authors,
[0:19] SPEAKER_02: Bob Bourdone,
[0:20] SPEAKER_02: who is a senior fellow at Harvard Law School,
[0:24] SPEAKER_02: and Joel Salinas,
[0:25] SPEAKER_02: who is a physician,
[0:27] SPEAKER_02: neurologist,
[0:27] SPEAKER_02: a clinician scientist at NYU.
[0:30] SPEAKER_02: So welcome both Bob and Joel.
[0:34] SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having us.
[0:35] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[0:35] SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to the conversation.
[0:36] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[0:37] SPEAKER_02: So first, how did you guys get together?
[0:39] SPEAKER_02: You know, this is pretty diverse.
[0:41] SPEAKER_02: You got law and medicine.
[0:43] SPEAKER_02: Usually they don't talk to each other very much.
[0:46] SPEAKER_01: Well, we were very fortunate.
[0:48] SPEAKER_01: I mean,
[0:51] SPEAKER_01: we basically were friends,
[0:52] SPEAKER_01: but part of that friendship,
[0:54] SPEAKER_01: I think,
[0:55] emerged from work that I do around conflict issues in the mass
[1:01] general system.
[1:02] And then just kind of the kind of larger,
[1:05] bigger mass general Harvard community.
[1:09] SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
[1:11] so this began really as a friendship where we were each
[1:15] swimming in very different waters.
[1:17] SPEAKER_01: But then as we would start to talk
[1:20] We realized there was a lot of kind of connection and maybe the
[1:23] possibility to
[1:25] bring two different disciplines together in a way that might be
[1:28] practically useful
[1:29] SPEAKER_01: and make an impact.
[1:32] SPEAKER_01: And even when we started writing this,
[1:34] SPEAKER_01: which was during COVID,
[1:36] what seemed to be some pretty polarizing times that were
[1:39] unlikely to resolve by the
[1:42] SPEAKER_01: time the book would come out.
[1:44] SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
[1:44] SPEAKER_02: well,
[1:45] you sure hit it with the divisiveness and the polarized world
[1:49] that we live in is
[1:50] SPEAKER_02: perhaps worse than ever,
[1:52] SPEAKER_02: certainly in all my years and probably long before then as well.
[1:57] SPEAKER_02: So this topic of resilience,
[2:02] it's a very interesting concept because some people might think
[2:05] of resilience as
[2:05] SPEAKER_02: just being tough.
[2:06] SPEAKER_02: So you go into a conflict and just go heavy tough.
[2:11] SPEAKER_02: That obviously is not what you're writing about.
[2:14] SPEAKER_02: And I guess maybe we can start off, you know, what was the goal here?
[2:21] SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
[2:21] SPEAKER_02: there's other books that have addressed this topic,
[2:23] SPEAKER_02: I'm sure,
[2:24] but yours is somewhat unique in many respects because it brings
[2:28] in the science of
[2:30] SPEAKER_02: it and many strategies perhaps that have never been developed.
[2:32] SPEAKER_02: But when you got together, what was the mission that you set out to do?
[2:38] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Bob, maybe I can start out and then you can add on.
[2:41] So my research has been all around understanding how social
[2:47] relationships influence
[2:48] SPEAKER_00: brain health.
[2:49] And one of the things that I was seeing was social isolation
[2:51] and loneliness have
[2:52] SPEAKER_00: been steadily increasing.
[2:53] I want to figure out what kind of interventions or what are the
[2:57] factors that are involved here?
[2:58] And I think one of the things that has stood out is just the
[3:03] difficulty with being
[3:04] SPEAKER_00: able to navigate conflict in different contexts.
[3:08] SPEAKER_00: And so the idea around conflict resilience is really,
[3:14] SPEAKER_00: even though there's been lots of books on kind of how,
[3:16] SPEAKER_00: like,
[3:17] SPEAKER_00: what to say and what specific tactics to use,
[3:19] I think that there was this skill set around just being able to
[3:23] sit with the
[3:24] SPEAKER_00: discomfort of that disagreement,
[3:26] which ultimately help kind of make it much more useful to take
[3:29] on those tactics.
[3:31] SPEAKER_00: One way to kind of think about it,
[3:33] if it's like all these tactics are like learning how to cook
[3:37] with a set of recipes
[3:39] SPEAKER_00: in the kitchen,
[3:40] what we're really proposing here is that you also need to be
[3:43] able to stand the heat
[3:43] SPEAKER_00: of the kitchen to even be able to cook.
[3:47] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[3:48] SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Bob.
[3:50] SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
[3:50] SPEAKER_01: and I would say,
[3:51] SPEAKER_01: you know,
[3:51] I was starting to write about my first kind of piece on this
[3:55] topic where I used the
[3:56] SPEAKER_01: word conflict resilience was in 2018.
[4:00] And it really came from an observed dynamic that I was seeing
[4:04] in my teaching of
[4:06] SPEAKER_01: Harvard Law School students.
[4:08] SPEAKER_01: I was on the admissions committee.
[4:09] SPEAKER_01: I'd been on the admissions committee for many years.
[4:12] SPEAKER_01: I knew that we worked very hard and were quite successful,
[4:16] SPEAKER_01: in fact,
[4:16] SPEAKER_01: at bringing together a very diverse student body,
[4:19] SPEAKER_01: including politically.
[4:20] And people sometimes maybe think of elite law schools as being
[4:24] very progressive.
[4:25] SPEAKER_01: But Harvard Law School,
[4:26] SPEAKER_01: the biggest student organization is actually the Federalists,
[4:29] SPEAKER_01: which is the conservative students.
[4:32] SPEAKER_01: And despite that effort,
[4:34] SPEAKER_01: what I noticed in the classroom was a reduction in conversation,
[4:41] SPEAKER_01: diversity of viewpoint across the board.
[4:43] SPEAKER_01: Interesting classrooms became boring.
[4:46] And even though I was teaching around conflict and negotiation
[4:50] and difficult conversations,
[4:52] SPEAKER_01: I would read in students' journals things like,
[4:56] SPEAKER_01: I want to avoid conflict or I don't want to get into it.
[4:59] SPEAKER_01: And so it occurred to me that quite a part,
[5:04] SPEAKER_01: as Joelle said,
[5:04] SPEAKER_01: from any skills,
[5:07] SPEAKER_01: if we don't develop this capacity to sit with disagreement,
[5:13] SPEAKER_01: then we will never get to problem solving.
[5:15] SPEAKER_01: You know,
[5:15] SPEAKER_01: I'm in favor of problem solving,
[5:17] SPEAKER_01: but the paper,
[5:18] SPEAKER_01: this paper on conflict resilience,
[5:19] SPEAKER_01: its original title was called Against Problem Solving.
[5:24] mostly because I thought that if we had opened the possibility
[5:28] of problem solving
[5:29] SPEAKER_01: as a precondition for entering the room,
[5:33] SPEAKER_01: then we might never enter the room,
[5:35] particularly if we've told the demonized and dehumanized story
[5:39] about them.
[5:40] And so that somehow we had to make the case that sitting with
[5:45] the discomfort of the disagreement,
[5:46] SPEAKER_01: even if it didn't mean problem solving,
[5:49] although we hope for that,
[5:50] even if we didn't mean that,
[5:52] it was worthwhile and it was important.
[5:55] And so part of what was really kind of attractive to me about
[5:58] joining up with Joel
[6:01] SPEAKER_01: is that he just brought all of this brain science aspect to it that,
[6:06] SPEAKER_01: you know,
[6:07] I had this kind of teaching and kind of academic in the
[6:11] negotiation and dispute
[6:12] SPEAKER_01: resolution research experience,
[6:15] SPEAKER_01: but didn't,
[6:16] SPEAKER_01: couldn't bring to bear
[6:17] the kind of brain science parts of what is going on in our
[6:20] brain when we do want to
[6:23] SPEAKER_01: run or when we get into that really unproductive battle.
[6:27] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
[6:28] SPEAKER_02: The unique part here is that whole scaffolding with the neuroscience,
[6:34] SPEAKER_02: the behavioral science,
[6:36] SPEAKER_02: and those five Fs that you mentioned,
[6:39] SPEAKER_02: you alluded to,
[6:39] SPEAKER_02: fight,
[6:40] SPEAKER_02: flight,
[6:40] SPEAKER_02: freeze,
[6:41] SPEAKER_02: fawn,
[6:41] SPEAKER_02: fester.
[6:42] SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
[6:43] so avoidance of conflict has kind of been the default for many
[6:47] people now because
[6:48] SPEAKER_02: we have political divides,
[6:51] SPEAKER_02: we have anti-science versus pro-science divides,
[6:54] SPEAKER_02: and on and on.
[6:56] There's a quote in the book that I thought we'd start off with
[6:59] because it really
[7:00] SPEAKER_02: kind of lays the groundwork from you both.
[7:03] The biggest hidden barrier to being conflict resilient stems
[7:08] from the inability or
[7:10] SPEAKER_02: unwillingness to face and sit with our own internal conflicts.
[7:15] SPEAKER_02: the negotiations between our divided and sometimes contradictory selves.
[7:20] Even more surprising is that although there are dozens of
[7:23] self-help books on
[7:24] SPEAKER_02: negotiation and conflict resolution,
[7:26] almost none of them spend any meaningful time on this critical
[7:30] intrapersonal
[7:32] SPEAKER_02: barrier to handling conflict.
[7:34] SPEAKER_02: So maybe, Joel, maybe start you off here.
[7:37] I guess you were bullied as a kid,
[7:39] and maybe that gives a little background here.
[7:42] SPEAKER_02: Tell us about, Joel, tell us about that
[7:45] SPEAKER_02: You would.
[7:45] SPEAKER_02: Hey,
[7:46] SPEAKER_01: Eric,
[7:46] SPEAKER_01: on our bad days,
[7:47] SPEAKER_01: sometimes I probably inadvertently bullied Joel still today,
[7:51] SPEAKER_01: but he's pretty resilient now.
[7:52] SPEAKER_01: So.
[7:53] SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
[7:55] SPEAKER_00: I'm a Teflon.
[7:57] SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
[7:59] SPEAKER_00: So I think I am generally a conflict of what an individual.
[8:03] And I think a lot of listeners and viewers can relate with that experience.
[8:06] SPEAKER_00: And
[8:07] I think that also kind of speaks to some of the neuroscience
[8:10] that comes into this,
[8:11] which is that our brain has really evolved to be a
[8:14] fortune-telling machine.
[8:15] SPEAKER_00: It takes all of our past experiences,
[8:17] SPEAKER_00: turns them into memories,
[8:19] SPEAKER_00: and then makes projections about what's going to happen.
[8:22] And this projection or prediction of what's going to happen
[8:25] might as well be
[8:25] SPEAKER_00: reality for our brain's kind of sake.
[8:29] SPEAKER_00: And so if we had really negative experiences with conflict in the past,
[8:34] SPEAKER_00: kind of growing up,
[8:35] SPEAKER_00: whether through our families or the schoolyard or others,
[8:39] SPEAKER_00: there'll be likely a very negative charge,
[8:41] SPEAKER_00: a negative emotional charge that comes with that.
[8:44] And what that does is that it increases the chances that you'll
[8:48] trigger this system
[8:50] SPEAKER_00: for salience and arousal,
[8:52] which then sets off the alarms essentially in your body that
[8:57] then kind of creates
[8:58] these kind of fight or flight type responses where you're more
[9:00] likely to fall back
[9:02] SPEAKER_00: on these really reflexive behaviors to make the bad thing less bad.
[9:08] SPEAKER_00: And when you do that,
[9:09] whether it's through avoiding or blowing through conflict like
[9:13] a battering ram,
[9:15] that then trains your brain to assign some kind of a reward
[9:20] using the orbital
[9:21] SPEAKER_00: frontal cortex,
[9:22] a system that kind of keeps tabs over how much reward you get
[9:26] for a behavior.
[9:28] SPEAKER_00: It makes it much more likely that you'll do it again.
[9:31] we,
[9:32] from a very young age,
[9:33] develop a propensity to either avoid conflict or tackle it.
[9:37] SPEAKER_00: And it varies depending on the context and how you're feeling.
[9:40] SPEAKER_00: But it just makes it much,
[9:42] much harder to be able to bring on a much more thoughtful and
[9:45] deliberative approach
[9:47] SPEAKER_00: to conflict.
[9:49] SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think one of those salient points is
[9:52] SPEAKER_02: that avoiding the conflict can make things worse.
[9:55] SPEAKER_02: And as you described,
[9:57] SPEAKER_02: that it's not,
[9:59] I would have thought that there are some people who are just
[10:02] innately gifted to
[10:03] SPEAKER_02: being diplomatic and artful about having to deal with
[10:07] SPEAKER_02: the conflict issue, and others are just, you know, there's just no hope.
[10:12] SPEAKER_02: But in fact, it can be acquired.
[10:14] And you allude to this kind of neuroplasticity,
[10:18] the brain,
[10:19] and you advocate for chair work.
[10:22] SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us about chair work?
[10:23] Because,
[10:24] you know,
[10:25] that's something I wouldn't have thought would help in this matter.
[10:30] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[10:30] SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll say a little bit about that.
[10:35] A big part of this chair work idea,
[10:37] frankly,
[10:38] is influenced by work in internal family systems.
[10:42] SPEAKER_01: And I was very fortunate early in my career,
[10:45] SPEAKER_01: even though I was teaching at law school,
[10:47] SPEAKER_01: to start partnering with some folks who did IFS work.
[10:51] SPEAKER_01: They call it piece work often, right?
[10:53] But the chair work is really identifying some of these
[10:58] conflicted sides of ourself,
[11:00] right?
[11:00] SPEAKER_01: The side of ourself that maybe feels like
[11:03] it's important and okay to raise this issue because it's
[11:08] something that matters to me.
[11:09] And then maybe the side of ourself that feels like it's
[11:12] pointless and it will hurt
[11:13] SPEAKER_01: the relationship.
[11:15] And maybe the side of ourself that's fearful and to name each
[11:19] of them and then to
[11:21] SPEAKER_01: actually give each a
[11:23] SPEAKER_01: in preparation,
[11:24] a physical chair where we sit in that chair and give voice to
[11:30] each of those sides.
[11:32] And I'm imagining that at least some people listening to this
[11:35] will say,
[11:35] this sounds very hokey.
[11:36] SPEAKER_01: And does he really mean going to the chairs?
[11:39] SPEAKER_01: And the answer is, yes, I do mean that.
[11:43] Because there is something about the physicality of it that
[11:47] forces you to give
[11:48] SPEAKER_01: voice to something that is true and real in you.
[11:53] And the chair work is very helpful to set up what an opening
[11:59] might be into a hard conversation,
[12:02] SPEAKER_01: meaning that all of the chairs
[12:05] SPEAKER_01: are real and authentic and okay.
[12:09] SPEAKER_01: They're worthy of getting some voice.
[12:11] So as someone who teaches in a law school,
[12:13] right,
[12:14] it's all about advocacy.
[12:15] And you would find students who would be very good at
[12:19] advocating on behalf of a
[12:20] SPEAKER_01: client would be incredibly poor at advocating on behalf of themselves.
[12:27] And so separating out the side that maybe has a little bit of
[12:32] feeling it's selfish,
[12:33] SPEAKER_01: but actually giving it a legitimate voice,
[12:36] SPEAKER_01: help them when they get to the table and
[12:39] SPEAKER_01: to be able to say,
[12:40] SPEAKER_01: you know,
[12:40] SPEAKER_01: I'm worried about this,
[12:42] SPEAKER_01: or I realize I'm going to be wrong about this,
[12:45] SPEAKER_01: or it might be upsetting.
[12:47] SPEAKER_01: And also it's important and deserves to be heard.
[12:50] Because one of the things around avoidance,
[12:52] right,
[12:52] is we often do avoidance in service of
[12:57] SPEAKER_01: preserving the relationship or not disrupting.
[13:01] And we do maybe preserve the relationship for the time being of
[13:04] the person across
[13:04] SPEAKER_01: the table,
[13:05] except we go home and there's still the side of us that is not
[13:08] feeling good about it.
[13:10] SPEAKER_01: And the person we're not preserving the relationship with is that side.
[13:14] SPEAKER_01: Then we just get to have a sleepless night.
[13:16] SPEAKER_01: And so that's really the kind of idea behind the chair work.
[13:22] SPEAKER_02: That's helpful, Bob.
[13:23] I guess managing conflict,
[13:25] of course,
[13:26] I think we know you don't get emotional.
[13:28] SPEAKER_02: Okay, sure.
[13:29] SPEAKER_02: But yeah, there's kind of three parts to that, three components.
[13:33] SPEAKER_02: Self-awareness, we've been talking about that.
[13:35] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[13:36] SPEAKER_02: deep listening,
[13:38] SPEAKER_02: which,
[13:38] SPEAKER_02: of course,
[13:38] SPEAKER_02: when you're engaging in a discussion that's,
[13:43] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[13:44] SPEAKER_02: potentially leading to escalation of a conflict or amplification,
[13:49] SPEAKER_02: that is really important.
[13:51] SPEAKER_02: And then effective assertion.
[13:52] SPEAKER_02: Now, that's where it seems to me things fall apart.
[13:56] If you're making effective assertion,
[13:58] you know,
[13:59] then everything kind of blows up.
[14:01] So tell us about how you can be assertive and still you're not
[14:05] trying to win the argument.
[14:06] SPEAKER_02: I get that.
[14:08] SPEAKER_02: But how can you be assertive and still come out in a positive way?
[14:16] SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can start, Bob.
[14:18] So I think one of the things that really is a good predictor of
[14:25] how effective
[14:25] you'll be at effective assertion is how good you were at the
[14:28] deep listening part.
[14:30] So the more genuine you are and curious you are about the
[14:36] perspective of the other person,
[14:37] SPEAKER_00: really understanding what are the set of facts,
[14:40] SPEAKER_00: experiences,
[14:41] beliefs that eventually kind of lead up to that headline of
[14:45] kind of what their
[14:46] SPEAKER_00: position is or what their interests are.
[14:49] the better you'll be able to articulate your own kind of
[14:53] perspective while still
[14:55] SPEAKER_00: engaging in the conversation.
[14:57] And the other thing that's really important here is that in
[14:59] that listening piece,
[15:02] it's really essential to be able to bring in tenets of really
[15:06] great listenings that
[15:06] SPEAKER_00: includes kind of eliminating distractions,
[15:09] SPEAKER_00: both external and internal.
[15:11] It involves having a nonjudgmental kind of position toward the
[15:16] other person and
[15:18] being able to reflect an understanding of what the other person
[15:21] is saying.
[15:23] SPEAKER_00: But all of that does not mean that you are endorsing their point of view.
[15:27] SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really essential.
[15:29] It's really about getting as clear as you can about where the
[15:34] other person is coming from.
[15:36] SPEAKER_00: So that way,
[15:37] SPEAKER_00: when you have an opportunity to share your perspective,
[15:41] you're able to really speak to the concerns of the other person
[15:44] and your own.
[15:46] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[15:47] SPEAKER_02: Well,
[15:47] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[15:48] SPEAKER_02: in reading the book,
[15:50] SPEAKER_02: it took me,
[15:52] SPEAKER_02: interestingly,
[15:52] SPEAKER_02: to an evening discussion I had with a very close friend.
[15:56] And he was saying,
[15:58] we do need a randomized trial of the measles vaccine,
[16:03] MMR for autism.
[16:05] SPEAKER_02: And I said, what?
[16:07] SPEAKER_02: And,
[16:07] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[16:07] SPEAKER_02: I started thinking about,
[16:09] SPEAKER_02: well,
[16:10] I'm going to hear him out because there's so much evidence now
[16:12] that you would think
[16:13] SPEAKER_02: this has been totally debunked.
[16:16] SPEAKER_02: And his view is, well, it can't hurt.
[16:17] SPEAKER_02: And I'm saying,
[16:18] SPEAKER_02: well,
[16:19] SPEAKER_02: so in that discussion,
[16:21] SPEAKER_02: a lot of these points that you've been raising helped me to come to a
[16:27] SPEAKER_02: not to a point where basically I was trying to put a bow on it,
[16:33] SPEAKER_02: as you said,
[16:33] SPEAKER_02: or trying to externalize or abstract it,
[16:37] SPEAKER_02: but to have a happy ending with him about this,
[16:41] SPEAKER_02: saying,
[16:41] SPEAKER_02: okay,
[16:42] SPEAKER_02: well,
[16:42] SPEAKER_02: it's never going to get done,
[16:43] SPEAKER_02: but if you want to get it,
[16:44] SPEAKER_02: I'm supportive of that.
[16:47] SPEAKER_02: We don't do enough of this.
[16:48] SPEAKER_02: I had to listen to what he had to say.
[16:50] SPEAKER_02: I had to deal with my own...
[16:55] SPEAKER_02: confirmation biases and not get emotional and all that stuff, right?
[17:00] Now,
[17:00] I'd like the two of you to role play on something like that,
[17:04] if you would.
[17:06] SPEAKER_02: And let me just give you an example.
[17:08] SPEAKER_02: Maybe you can run with it.
[17:11] SPEAKER_02: Let's go to COVID, okay?
[17:14] So one of you will take the side that we shouldn't do any more
[17:20] COVID research
[17:21] SPEAKER_02: because the pandemic is over
[17:24] SPEAKER_02: And we need to be efficient and not use these funds for other things.
[17:31] SPEAKER_02: COVID is over.
[17:32] SPEAKER_02: Long COVID is a hoax.
[17:34] SPEAKER_02: And the other person will take the side that,
[17:37] SPEAKER_02: no,
[17:37] this is a really big deal because COVID has not gone away and
[17:41] there's still a
[17:41] SPEAKER_02: pandemic or endemic of the virus.
[17:44] SPEAKER_02: But long COVID is millions of people.
[17:45] SPEAKER_02: Who wants to take the side of take away the funds?
[17:49] SPEAKER_02: Would that be you, Bob?
[17:52] SPEAKER_01: As a lawyer, I am happy to take any side.
[17:55] SPEAKER_02: Okay, you are the one to be on that side.
[17:58] SPEAKER_02: And Joel, you are going to be the pro-science side, if you will.
[18:02] SPEAKER_02: Can you start that argument?
[18:04] SPEAKER_01: Eric, can I make a suggestion?
[18:07] It might be fun if one of us tries to be a person who hasn't
[18:12] read the book and the
[18:14] SPEAKER_01: other person maybe tries to actually model the skills.
[18:17] SPEAKER_01: What do you think about that?
[18:18] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[18:19] SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
[18:20] SPEAKER_00: Bob, I'll take on the unskilled position.
[18:22] SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
[18:24] SPEAKER_00: All right.
[18:26] SPEAKER_00: So, Bob, you know what?
[18:28] SPEAKER_00: I keep hearing about people wanting to cut COVID funding,
[18:31] SPEAKER_00: and it just really just,
[18:33] SPEAKER_00: I just can't believe it.
[18:34] It just makes me want to throw up because there's such an
[18:37] important need to do this research.
[18:39] It's just critical to understand the long-term effects of it,
[18:41] and COVID isn't even gone yet.
[18:43] So I just can't believe that people would even want to cut this
[18:47] research at all.
[18:49] SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
[18:49] SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, it sounds like you're stunned and surprised by this.
[18:54] SPEAKER_01: Am I right about that?
[18:55] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm beyond stunned.
[18:59] SPEAKER_00: I'm revolted by it.
[19:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you're pretty angry about it.
[19:03] SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious if I can ask you, you know, you said that...
[19:08] SPEAKER_01: the disease is kind of still going on.
[19:12] SPEAKER_01: And of course, COVID still exists.
[19:15] SPEAKER_01: I am curious from your perspective,
[19:18] what do you think the benefits of spending lots and lots of
[19:22] money on the diseases
[19:24] SPEAKER_01: at this point,
[19:26] SPEAKER_01: since it's not at that level where it's killing a lot of people?
[19:30] SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that it is killing a lot of people still.
[19:34] SPEAKER_00: The disease hasn't gone away and it has a huge impact on health.
[19:38] SPEAKER_00: I think we're still feeling the impacts on that.
[19:40] So I think that being able to understand what the impact is
[19:43] does require funding to
[19:44] SPEAKER_00: be able to do the research.
[19:46] And if we don't do that research,
[19:47] then we don't understand what interventions there can be.
[19:51] SPEAKER_01: And what are the impacts?
[19:52] SPEAKER_01: I mean,
[19:52] SPEAKER_01: clearly there's impacts of the pandemic broadly in our society,
[19:57] but what are the kinds of health impacts from your perspective
[20:01] that research would
[20:02] SPEAKER_01: be helpful to from a medical perspective?
[20:05] SPEAKER_00: Well, for sure, it impacts cognition.
[20:08] SPEAKER_00: We have people talking about brain fog and long COVID,
[20:11] and that has a real societal impact on productivity and
[20:14] people's ability to engage
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: in life.
[20:16] SPEAKER_00: It affects people's mood.
[20:17] And then you've got the people who have respiratory symptoms
[20:20] from COVID that have
[20:20] SPEAKER_00: continued to gone on,
[20:21] SPEAKER_00: and that decreases their ability to do their day-to-day things.
[20:25] SPEAKER_00: It's a real societal impact.
[20:28] And how would you think about balancing whatever impact COVID
[20:31] has from all of the
[20:32] SPEAKER_01: other funding choices
[20:34] SPEAKER_01: that need to be made given a shrinking research pool for funds?
[20:43] SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
[20:44] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's an important priority.
[20:46] SPEAKER_00: And I know that there are a lot of other priorities.
[20:47] I think it needs to be weighed against a lot of other kind of
[20:52] big programs that are out there.
[20:53] I just want to make sure that it doesn't go away because it
[20:55] needs to happen.
[20:56] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[20:56] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[20:57] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's helpful to hear that.
[20:58] SPEAKER_01: You know, and if we had more time, I'd ask you some more questions.
[21:01] SPEAKER_01: I mean,
[21:01] one thing that as I think about this is given just the number
[21:06] of priorities out there,
[21:10] I worry that because COVID was in the press so much and is so
[21:13] politicized that we
[21:15] SPEAKER_01: overweight the importance of money in that direction.
[21:18] SPEAKER_01: And
[21:20] I would say that there's probably other things if we have a
[21:23] fixed set of money that
[21:25] SPEAKER_01: kills a lot more people and has a lot more health impact.
[21:29] And so I'd rather see the funds get placed there than just
[21:34] satisfy some kind of
[21:36] SPEAKER_01: highly salient political issue.
[21:40] SPEAKER_00: And I just want to make sure that the funding happens.
[21:43] SPEAKER_00: I mean,
[21:43] it should be to a level that it makes sense to continue the
[21:46] funding so that we get
[21:47] SPEAKER_00: good results from it,
[21:48] SPEAKER_00: that it can be applied.
[21:50] But yeah,
[21:51] I guess you're right that it needs to be against other research priorities.
[21:54] SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a whole other topic that gets me upset.
[21:56] SPEAKER_00: But I think I just want to make sure that this funding doesn't go away.
[22:03] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:03] So it sounds like for you,
[22:04] the concern is less about reduction and more about moving it to zero.
[22:10] SPEAKER_01: I think so.
[22:12] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:13] And if it did move to zero,
[22:14] what is the thing you'd be most worried about?
[22:18] I think we would lose out on this really unique opportunity
[22:22] after all these people
[22:23] SPEAKER_00: had been affected by this condition to understand the long term effects.
[22:26] SPEAKER_00: So that way,
[22:27] SPEAKER_00: if there's another resurgence,
[22:29] SPEAKER_00: we'll understand what can we do about it to mitigate those effects.
[22:33] I mean,
[22:33] we're still trying to figure out kind of what the effects of a
[22:36] lockdown were on people.
[22:38] SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that needs to be better understood.
[22:40] So for you,
[22:41] the research is very forward looking about future pandemics
[22:44] that might come up.
[22:46] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[22:46] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:47] And that might be something that I'd be more interested in than
[22:50] how can we like
[22:51] SPEAKER_01: prevent future pandemics?
[22:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[22:53] SPEAKER_01: than I would worrying about,
[22:56] SPEAKER_01: I mean,
[22:57] it's very credible what has happened to this set of people who
[22:59] have long COVID,
[23:01] SPEAKER_01: of course.
[23:03] SPEAKER_01: I just think that that has happened.
[23:06] And I would almost rather see the funds move in the direction
[23:09] of how do we prevent
[23:11] SPEAKER_01: another pandemic than how do we worry about
[23:16] SPEAKER_01: a relatively small set of people,
[23:17] SPEAKER_01: although it's tragic on them,
[23:19] SPEAKER_01: a relatively small set of people who may still suffer those benefits.
[23:26] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we do want to focus on the prevention, definitely.
[23:30] I still just don't want to lose sight of making sure that we're
[23:35] getting the
[23:35] SPEAKER_00: research done that needs to happen.
[23:38] SPEAKER_01: Should we cut?
[23:39] SPEAKER_02: That's helpful.
[23:40] SPEAKER_02: You know, these are two experts in conflict resilience here.
[23:44] SPEAKER_02: I mean,
[23:44] the only thing I'd add is that long COVID is affecting millions
[23:48] of Americans,
[23:49] SPEAKER_02: perhaps as many as 60 million people around the world,
[23:53] SPEAKER_02: and we have no treatment for it.
[23:54] SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's a big deal.
[23:56] SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
[23:57] SPEAKER_01: I just want to say for the record, I was just being an actor there.
[24:00] SPEAKER_01: Cause I,
[24:00] SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if my arguments on the other side were making sense,
[24:06] SPEAKER_01: but I was,
[24:07] SPEAKER_01: I was trying.
[24:08] SPEAKER_02: I think you did a good job.
[24:09] SPEAKER_02: I think both of you did a good job.
[24:10] I think the point here is that you were able to have a civil discussion,
[24:15] make your points.
[24:16] SPEAKER_02: Uh, you didn't, you know, I, I forced you into it.
[24:19] SPEAKER_02: You didn't, you couldn't avoid it.
[24:22] SPEAKER_02: Well, you're in touch obviously with your own, um,
[24:27] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[24:27] SPEAKER_02: innate issues of,
[24:29] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[24:29] SPEAKER_02: you kind of really emphasize that throughout the book,
[24:34] SPEAKER_02: which is,
[24:34] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[24:34] SPEAKER_02: you got to be in touch with yourself,
[24:36] SPEAKER_02: not just about your priors,
[24:38] SPEAKER_02: but also your current,
[24:40] SPEAKER_02: what you're feeling,
[24:41] SPEAKER_02: your posture,
[24:43] SPEAKER_02: your heart rate,
[24:44] SPEAKER_02: your,
[24:44] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[24:45] SPEAKER_02: all these other physical things.
[24:46] So,
[24:47] you know,
[24:47] you really got us cued into what's important when you're having
[24:51] a discussion about
[24:52] SPEAKER_02: that could lead to,
[24:54] SPEAKER_02: it could exacerbate the conflict rather than help,
[24:57] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[24:57] SPEAKER_02: come to a happy,
[25:00] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[25:01] SPEAKER_02: mid stance or,
[25:02] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[25:02] SPEAKER_02: where both people feel that they've expressed themselves adequately.
[25:06] SPEAKER_02: I really love the Frederick Douglass quote in your book.
[25:10] SPEAKER_02: If there is no struggle, there is no progress.
[25:14] SPEAKER_02: Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation
[25:20] SPEAKER_02: want crops without plowing up the ground.
[25:24] SPEAKER_02: They want rain without thunder and lightning.
[25:26] SPEAKER_02: They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters."
[25:32] SPEAKER_02: I think that is so rich.
[25:35] SPEAKER_02: And before we wrap up, I just want to get your overall thoughts.
[25:40] SPEAKER_02: What haven't we touched on in our brief conversation
[25:45] SPEAKER_02: about the topic, about the book that we should before we close today.
[25:50] SPEAKER_02: Maybe start with you, Bob.
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
[25:53] SPEAKER_01: I mean,
[25:54] SPEAKER_01: in some sense,
[25:55] SPEAKER_01: I think it connects to exactly that quote,
[25:58] SPEAKER_01: which is that without conflict,
[26:03] we are not going to get the kind of changes and dynamism we
[26:09] would want in our organizations,
[26:11] SPEAKER_01: whether it's a medical center,
[26:14] SPEAKER_01: a country,
[26:14] SPEAKER_01: a family,
[26:16] SPEAKER_01: but also without the conflict,
[26:18] SPEAKER_01: we don't get the deeper connection that is possible.
[26:22] Because it's not until the first no that all of the yeses
[26:28] actually have the meaning
[26:29] SPEAKER_01: that they should.
[26:30] SPEAKER_01: And so even though it seems scary to go into conflict,
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: what I would say is it offers opportunities.
[26:40] SPEAKER_01: Maybe for agreement,
[26:41] SPEAKER_01: but if not for agreement,
[26:42] SPEAKER_01: for a deeper kind of more authentic and real relationship.
[26:46] SPEAKER_01: And I would just say,
[26:48] SPEAKER_01: for me,
[26:49] part of this is inviting people to reframe the way they think
[26:53] about what conflict
[26:55] SPEAKER_01: can do in their lives.
[26:57] SPEAKER_02: Jerome?
[26:58] SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
[26:59] SPEAKER_00: I think if there's one thing that listeners or viewers take from this is,
[27:05] SPEAKER_00: you know,
[27:06] SPEAKER_00: awareness is more than half the battle.
[27:09] So just really taking the time to become more aware of how you
[27:14] react to different
[27:15] SPEAKER_00: disagreements or different conflicts,
[27:17] SPEAKER_00: how you're responding to it physically.
[27:19] SPEAKER_00: And mentally,
[27:20] and what specific patterns might emerge in terms of whether
[27:24] it's with colleagues,
[27:25] SPEAKER_00: with people with authority,
[27:26] SPEAKER_00: with family members.
[27:28] And I think that alone begins to get you to pay more attention
[27:31] about how you can be
[27:33] SPEAKER_00: more deliberate in your responses.
[27:35] SPEAKER_00: And ideally,
[27:35] you can try out some of the skulls from the book with those
[27:38] disagreements that are
[27:39] SPEAKER_00: a little less distressful for you.
[27:41] Just kind of like when you go to the gym,
[27:42] you don't start out by lifting the heaviest weights.
[27:45] SPEAKER_00: You start out by getting the reps down with the good form.
[27:47] SPEAKER_00: And then you build that muscle.
[27:50] And similar with kind of building kind of the brain programming
[27:54] wiring around it is
[27:55] SPEAKER_00: to start low and build up from there.
[27:57] SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
[27:58] SPEAKER_02: Well,
[27:58] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[27:59] SPEAKER_02: I think what you have put forth in the book will go down and,
[28:04] SPEAKER_02: you know,
[28:05] SPEAKER_02: anchoring such an important problem.
[28:08] SPEAKER_02: It's magnified now more than ever.
[28:11] People are socially isolated,
[28:14] not just in the pandemic,
[28:15] but post-pandemic.
[28:17] SPEAKER_02: And the divisiveness is profound.
[28:20] SPEAKER_02: So hopefully the tips that you've provided,
[28:23] SPEAKER_02: the science behind it,
[28:25] the practical ways to navigate and deal with this will help
[28:31] people as we go forward.
[28:32] SPEAKER_02: So thank you both for the work you did.
[28:35] SPEAKER_02: in putting together the book.
[28:36] And hopefully some of our listeners or viewers will use these
[28:41] tools in the future
[28:43] and we'll have much better exchanges with others who have
[28:48] different views,
[28:49] SPEAKER_02: different what might be considered adversarial perspective,
[28:54] SPEAKER_02: whatever.
[28:55] SPEAKER_02: So thank you very much for joining today.
[28:58] SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
[28:59] SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having us.
[28:59] SPEAKER_01: It's been a delight.

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