# 004|How Your Attachment Style is Impacting Your Marriage with Bev Mitelman

An episode of [BETTER HUSBAND | Marriage Advice, Trust, Intimacy, Emotional Connection](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1714824313), 26 Nov 2024, 50 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2405322/episodes/16156419-004-how-your-attachment-style-is-impacting-your-marriage-with-bev-mitelman.mp3

In this episode, I am joined by Bev Mitelman, founder of Securely Loved, and we dive into the world of attachment styles. We discuss the significance of attachment styles, their origins, and how understanding them can help you become a better husband. Bev provides insights into secure and insecure attachment styles, emotional regulation, and how these affect relationships. Learn practical steps to understand yourself and your partner better. - Connect with Bev Website: https://securelyloved.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SecurelyLoved 👉 Better Husband Secrets Watch my free 3 Secrets Workshop to learn why your efforts aren’t helping your marriage and what you can do differently. Go to https://betterhusbandsecrets.com 🧰 Better Husband Toolkit Get this free toolkit and learn the 3 essential skills you need to rebuild trust and closeness—even if things feel off right now. Go to https://www.betterhusbandtoolkit.com 💍 Join Better Husband Academy Join me and the other men on the path of becoming a Better Husband at https://www.betterhusbandacademy.com Questions? 📩 Email Me → angelo@angelosantiago.com

## Transcript

[0:00] Angelo Santiago: Welcome to Better Husband, the show that helps you answer the simple question, How can I be a better husband?
[0:06] Angelo Santiago: I'm Angelo Santiago, and today I'm joined by Bev Mitelman.
[0:10] Angelo Santiago: Bev is the founder of Securely Loved, a collective of relationship and attachment trauma practitioners, and we're going to be talking about attachment styles and what we can learn about ourselves within these styles, how we can improve our marriage and understanding where we fall in these categories, as well as the steps we can take to become securely attached.
[0:30] Angelo Santiago: We may also learn a lot about our spouse by understanding these different attachment styles and what they may need from us to help them feel more loved and secure.
[0:40] Angelo Santiago: So stick around, you don't want to miss this.
[0:58] Angelo Santiago: Hey Bev, thank you so much for being on the show.
[1:01] Angelo Santiago: I'm really excited to dive into these topics with you.
[1:04] Angelo Santiago: I have so many questions.
[1:05] Angelo Santiago: I'm sure the listeners do, and I'm sure you have a lot to inform us.
[1:08] Angelo Santiago: So thank you for being here.
[1:10] Angelo Santiago: Let's get going.
[1:11] Bev Mitelman, M: It's my pleasure.
[1:12] Bev Mitelman, M: Thank you for the opportunity.
[1:14] Angelo Santiago: Absolutely.
[1:15] Angelo Santiago: You know, and I talked to you a little bit about this attachment styles to me is something that I like when I think about it, or I see the categories on paper.
[1:23] Angelo Santiago: I'm like, yeah, I get it.
[1:24] Angelo Santiago: Like, this makes sense.
[1:25] Angelo Santiago: And then when I actually start reading into a little bit more, I'm like, there is a ton of depth here.
[1:31] Angelo Santiago: There's so much.
[1:32] Angelo Santiago: To learn so much, to understand so much work that goes into uncovering more about myself as, as a man and as a husband.
[1:40] Angelo Santiago: And so I'm excited to get into that with you, but for someone who's listening, let's just start at the basics.
[1:46] Angelo Santiago: Let's just like ease into this, knowing that like, this may be a multi, uh, episode discussion.
[1:53] Angelo Santiago: Introduce the idea of attachment styles.
[1:55] Angelo Santiago: Like where do they come from?
[1:57] Angelo Santiago: Why is it important for us to understand them and how to, do they affect us in our marriage?
[2:02] Bev Mitelman, M: Great question.
[2:03] Bev Mitelman, M: So I'll start at the beginning.
[2:05] Bev Mitelman, M: This actually emerged with a set of research that started in the 1950s.
[2:10] Bev Mitelman, M: And really what it was doing is it was observing how children behaved in the presence of their caregivers, very young children, like babies and toddlers.
[2:20] Bev Mitelman, M: then in the study, they removed the appearance.
[2:23] Bev Mitelman, M: from the room.
[2:25] Bev Mitelman, M: observed how the Children behaved and then they re integrated the caregivers into the room and they then again observed.
[2:31] Bev Mitelman, M: And there were some really distinct patterns that came out of this.
[2:36] Bev Mitelman, M: Some Children you can imagine were very distraught when their parents left.
[2:40] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, some parent, some Children felt angry.
[2:44] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, some Children display any emotions.
[2:48] Bev Mitelman, M: And so it got people thinking, okay, what is this bond that we have?
[2:52] Bev Mitelman, M: Right?
[2:53] Bev Mitelman, M: And how did is how does it really affect us?
[2:55] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, when we're talking about attachment, we're talking about an emotional bond to another person.
[3:02] Bev Mitelman, M: Okay?
[3:03] Bev Mitelman, M: Now, of course, we all know that the first You know, exposure to any level of attachment is those earliest days of our lives when we come into the world and we're just a brand new baby.
[3:15] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and in the first, you know, zero to five, zero to six years, we're incredibly suggestible, right?
[3:22] Bev Mitelman, M: We're very young.
[3:23] Bev Mitelman, M: We're in Entirely dependent as a species.
[3:26] Bev Mitelman, M: We cannot survive without our caregivers, right?
[3:31] Bev Mitelman, M: And so it's at that point in time that we learn some very, very critical things from our caregivers.
[3:39] Bev Mitelman, M: what we learn is essentially how to engage with someone else.
[3:45] Bev Mitelman, M: We learn either what a sense of safety feels like or not.
[3:49] Bev Mitelman, M: Can I trust this person?
[3:51] Bev Mitelman, M: Am I understanding emotions?
[3:54] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, if I need help and I try to communicate as a baby that I need help, do I have that Safety there that someone will help me and listen to me.
[4:04] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and as we get older, right, we, we learn even more, right.
[4:08] Bev Mitelman, M: We learn like how, how does, you know, my mother or my father, how do they deal with emotions?
[4:15] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[4:15] Bev Mitelman, M: Can I understand their emotions?
[4:17] Bev Mitelman, M: Like their facial expressions?
[4:18] Bev Mitelman, M: How did they deal when they're under stress?
[4:21] Bev Mitelman, M: All of these patterns get patterned into us really young.
[4:27] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[4:27] Bev Mitelman, M: So it's almost like a set of rules.
[4:30] Bev Mitelman, M: How to give and receive love.
[4:34] Bev Mitelman, M: And, uh, most people don't have actual memory before they're five.
[4:40] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, but your subconscious mind remembers these.
[4:43] Bev Mitelman, M: So when I'm talking about patterning, this goes into our subconscious mind, right?
[4:49] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and it sets forth.
[4:52] Bev Mitelman, M: some very, very important things with how we are going to present ourselves in the world later on.
[5:00] Bev Mitelman, M: So this is like the earliest exposure really, really does impact us, right?
[5:05] Bev Mitelman, M: So we're going to dive into this, but you know, just to sort of give you a sense, some children grow up with a great deal of emotional attunement and they believe that it's safe and life is all about making connections.
[5:20] Bev Mitelman, M: You could imagine that lens, that's a beautiful lens, right?
[5:25] Bev Mitelman, M: I'm safe to make connections.
[5:27] Bev Mitelman, M: I'm safe to communicate.
[5:29] Bev Mitelman, M: are some children that grow up and they don't feel that sense of safety.
[5:33] Bev Mitelman, M: And, um, there's a whole bunch of scenarios we can talk about, but essentially they see the world something they need to survive.
[5:43] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[5:43] Angelo Santiago: Mm.
[5:58] Bev Mitelman, M: Every single one to our friends, to our family, to our colleagues, to our romantic partners and attachment styles is most often talked about in the context of our romantic partners.
[6:12] Bev Mitelman, M: And there's a simple reason for that, because when we're in a romantic partnership with someone, uh, they're generally the person that's closest to us.
[6:22] Bev Mitelman, M: They're generally the person that we are affording the highest degree of trust to, uh, which mirrors the relationship that we once had in our earliest days where we were dependent on someone.
[6:36] Bev Mitelman, M: And so, um, you know, if we have wounding from our childhood, um, it tends to get most prevalently triggered by our romantic partner.
[6:49] Bev Mitelman, M: Like, like your partner could likely trigger you in a way that you wouldn't.
[6:54] Bev Mitelman, M: If your friend said the same thing, you wouldn't care, but your
[6:58] Angelo Santiago: Yes.
[6:59] Bev Mitelman, M: and it triggers you a different way.
[7:00] Bev Mitelman, M: And that's because.
[7:02] Bev Mitelman, M: There's, there's a depth of connection there and trust and emotional bond that's closest to what you once had with your parents.
[7:11] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, but that's not to say that attachment styles don't impact us again with all relationships that we have.
[7:19] Bev Mitelman, M: And most importantly, Angelo, the relationship we have to ourself.
[7:23] Angelo Santiago: Yeah, that's that's incredible.
[7:25] Angelo Santiago: I love what you closed out with there.
[7:27] Angelo Santiago: Like, why is it that I am a certain way when my wife says something to me, like it, it stings me a little bit.
[7:34] Angelo Santiago: But if somebody else were to say, like, it just brushes off my shoulder and it is that level of trust and connection that you're talking about.
[7:40] Bev Mitelman, M: Yeah.
[7:41] Angelo Santiago: you know, in the relational work that I love to do, and one of my teachers, uh, Talks about like, we, we sometimes marry our unfinished business.
[7:49] Angelo Santiago: Those things that we faced in childhood that never got taken care of.
[7:53] Angelo Santiago: They show up in this beautiful way to trigger the heck out of us, but also invite us to heal through it.
[7:59] Angelo Santiago: So let's go back.
[8:01] Angelo Santiago: We're talking about early childhood.
[8:03] Angelo Santiago: This is unconscious, you know, development, uh, in, in our connection styles and our attachment styles.
[8:10] Angelo Santiago: And then we, we, we start getting older.
[8:12] Angelo Santiago: We start developing friendships.
[8:13] Angelo Santiago: We start learning new things and we start getting into.
[8:17] Angelo Santiago: Um, let's say now our romantic connections and let's bring this to fast forward.
[8:23] Angelo Santiago: I know there's a lot that could happen there, but we're talking to, um, adults.
[8:28] Angelo Santiago: We're talking to men who are married, who are trying to figure out a little bit more about themselves.
[8:33] Angelo Santiago: Like, why do I act this way?
[8:35] Angelo Santiago: Like what, you know, it's like my, my, my partner's telling me, my spouse is telling me that every time they.
[8:41] Angelo Santiago: Say something to me, I close off or I run away or I don't want to be around them.
[8:46] Angelo Santiago: Like, what do you want to say about that?
[8:48] Angelo Santiago: Like, what can we, we learn about ourselves through these attachment styles?
[8:52] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[8:55] Bev Mitelman, M: because this really is rooted in some very real, you know, um, behaviors that are problematic in some relationships, right?
[9:03] Bev Mitelman, M: Not, not at all.
[9:05] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, what I want to first start by saying is, is that, um, attachment styles, Everyone has an attachment style.
[9:13] Bev Mitelman, M: It's not a mental illness.
[9:14] Bev Mitelman, M: It's not a personality disorder.
[9:15] Bev Mitelman, M: We don't diagnose people.
[9:17] Bev Mitelman, M: So we all have a set of patterns that we learned from childhood.
[9:21] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[9:22] Bev Mitelman, M: So, uh, remember I talked about the sub one group of people who feels that the world is about connection and the other group of people feels that the word is the world is about survival.
[9:34] Bev Mitelman, M: um, and we're gonna, we're gonna dive into this a little bit, but, um, essentially what we do as humans.
[9:41] Bev Mitelman, M: Is we develop a set of patterns, right?
[9:44] Bev Mitelman, M: That like emotional patterns, thought patterns, behavioral coping mechanisms that are intended to try and keep ourselves safe.
[9:55] Bev Mitelman, M: Okay.
[9:55] Bev Mitelman, M: And so, um, you know, there's a very specific subset of, of these attachment styles that are quite avoidance.
[10:04] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and all of these behaviors again, um, It's because we were modeled certain behaviors in childhood.
[10:13] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and what's interesting to learn also is that because we learned this, we also can unlearn this, right?
[10:19] Bev Mitelman, M: This is not a life sentence.
[10:21] Bev Mitelman, M: Like, you learned this stuff in childhood, you can also unlearn it.
[10:25] Bev Mitelman, M: Unlearn it.
[10:26] Bev Mitelman, M: So let me back up a little bit.
[10:27] Bev Mitelman, M: There is what we call secure attachment and insecure attachment.
[10:32] Bev Mitelman, M: So secure attachment is what I was describing early on about half of our population.
[10:37] Bev Mitelman, M: The statistics right now in North America are in between 40 and 60%.
[10:42] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, so I usually landed 50 percent of the population.
[10:45] Bev Mitelman, M: It's estimated to have a secure attachment, and that means that they came out of a home where their caregiver, their parents.
[10:54] Bev Mitelman, M: Was emotionally attuned to them most of the time, like in a reliable, healthy way.
[11:02] Bev Mitelman, M: So if they express themselves, um, you know, there was room for their emotions.
[11:08] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they, um, they were validated, um, you know, they were listened to.
[11:14] Bev Mitelman, M: They, they were modeled on what different emotions were, how to handle certain emotions.
[11:20] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[11:21] Bev Mitelman, M: I, I understand you're feeling angry right now.
[11:24] Bev Mitelman, M: What's a way that we can work together to deal with, to deal with this feeling, right?
[11:28] Bev Mitelman, M: Like those conversations took place.
[11:31] Bev Mitelman, M: And so these kids grew up understanding emotions are just a part of me.
[11:35] Bev Mitelman, M: There's no, there's no, there's no shame there.
[11:38] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, I can, you know, just deal with it and communicate that I'm feeling sad at this moment and it's safe to do that.
[11:48] Bev Mitelman, M: So these are people who are have secure attachments and they do very well in relationships.
[11:54] Bev Mitelman, M: They've got a very healthy relationship to boundary setting.
[11:58] Bev Mitelman, M: They understand themselves very well and their own needs.
[12:01] Bev Mitelman, M: They generally have, you know, a very good level of, Um, communication style.
[12:07] Bev Mitelman, M: They're not the ones who are afraid to say, uh, to say no.
[12:12] Bev Mitelman, M: They're not the people pleasers.
[12:14] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they are not the ones who are emotionally volatile.
[12:17] Bev Mitelman, M: Like, you know, you're crying one minute, you're upset one minute, you can't get off the couch one minutee, this is not the group.
[12:23] Angelo Santiago: I'm just going to say, pause you for a moment because I'm actually shocked that the number is 40 to 60%.
[12:30] Angelo Santiago: I'm not gonna lie.
[12:30] Angelo Santiago: When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, hold on.
[12:33] Angelo Santiago: Let's do another study here because I'm like, where are these 50 percent of the population and maybe they're just.
[12:39] Angelo Santiago: It just goes unnoticed a little bit because they are kind of more calm and even keeled, like you said.
[12:46] Angelo Santiago: But, um, you know, considering the number of, of self help and personal development and growth and, you know, whether it's podcasts, YouTube channels, therapists out there doing this work, I would think the number would be much higher.
[12:59] Angelo Santiago: But I'm really happy for those people.
[13:02] Angelo Santiago: I can't say I'm one of them, but,
[13:05] Bev Mitelman, M: I
[13:05] Angelo Santiago: but
[13:07] Bev Mitelman, M: most people actually do comment on the statistics right now in social sciences.
[13:10] Bev Mitelman, M: Everything is self reported, right?
[13:12] Bev Mitelman, M: So there might be a bit of a margin of error there, but we use,
[13:16] Angelo Santiago: yeah,
[13:16] Bev Mitelman, M: the best methodologies that we have.
[13:18] Bev Mitelman, M: I think it's also important to note that I'm going to talk about several categories of attachment styles.
[13:24] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, but generally people fall Let's say they fall secure, but they might lean in another direction.
[13:31] Bev Mitelman, M: So it's very rare for people to fall smack in one category.
[13:35] Bev Mitelman, M: So it's a continuum, So a lot of what I'm going to talk about next in terms of insecure attachment style is, um, we're going to be highlighting some of the more extreme behaviors.
[13:49] Angelo Santiago: great.
[13:49] Bev Mitelman, M: And some of the more extreme patterns.
[13:52] Bev Mitelman, M: And so you could have someone, and this all has to do with triggers, right?
[13:56] Bev Mitelman, M: So who's securely attached still has triggers.
[14:01] Bev Mitelman, M: they still have things that, you know, they still have wounding, but, but smaller.
[14:06] Bev Mitelman, M: It's not as significant.
[14:08] Bev Mitelman, M: And so when they are triggered, they're often able to communicate while they're triggered and they're able to get back to a baseline of emotional regulation much faster.
[14:18] Bev Mitelman, M: So I'm not, I'm not painting a picture of perfect humans, you know, listen, if you disrespect someone, regardless of what attachment style they are, it they're, they're going to have a response, the level of
[14:33] Angelo Santiago: And as you
[14:34] Bev Mitelman, M: different.
[14:35] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[14:36] Angelo Santiago: So as you go into these different attachment styles that you're going to lay out in front of it, I just want to prep the, the, the listeners or those watching that it's like, like you said, it's a continuum.
[14:45] Angelo Santiago: This isn't, this isn't you at a hundred percent all the time.
[14:49] Angelo Santiago: This is how you are, no matter who's talking.
[14:50] Angelo Santiago: This is like on a bad day, you Everything seems to be pushing your buttons and how you respond or react to the situation that's right in front of you.
[15:00] Angelo Santiago: There's a piece of what Bev you're about to share with us that comes out.
[15:04] Angelo Santiago: That is like the thing that's driving the bus per se of, of like how you react.
[15:10] Angelo Santiago: Um, so again, this isn't a diagnosis.
[15:13] Angelo Santiago: This isn't criticism.
[15:15] Angelo Santiago: This is just awareness.
[15:16] Angelo Santiago: This is good information.
[15:17] Angelo Santiago: So as you listen to these, you know, Take it in, be honest with yourself, right?
[15:22] Angelo Santiago: Self report is this me?
[15:24] Angelo Santiago: Is there truth in this about me?
[15:26] Angelo Santiago: Because it may help you a little bit further down the road.
[15:29] Angelo Santiago: So go ahead.
[15:30] Angelo Santiago: Let me pass it back to you, Bev.
[15:31] Bev Mitelman, M: it's such a great point.
[15:32] Bev Mitelman, M: So the first and foremost, we do this work for ourselves.
[15:37] Bev Mitelman, M: because those that have insecure attachment styles, because they came out of homes and that they didn't, they didn't learn the modeling or they didn't have that emotional attunement.
[15:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they are generally emotionally dysregulated.
[15:51] Bev Mitelman, M: and this is a very, very difficult place to, to be in, right.
[15:55] Bev Mitelman, M: When we're emotionally dysregulated, we're in a fight or flight state.
[16:01] Bev Mitelman, M: We're not thinking rationally.
[16:03] Bev Mitelman, M: We're not nearly as creative.
[16:04] Bev Mitelman, M: We're not logical.
[16:06] Bev Mitelman, M: We're not present.
[16:07] Bev Mitelman, M: We're not.
[16:07] Bev Mitelman, M: So we're, we're, we're keeping ourselves in a chronic state of stress.
[16:13] Bev Mitelman, M: Right?
[16:13] Bev Mitelman, M: And so the idea here is, is that if you can figure out what your core wounds are from childhood, you can actually reprogram them.
[16:23] Bev Mitelman, M: We can do this work at a subconscious level, which has this incredible impact.
[16:29] Bev Mitelman, M: And then changing your thought process, your emotional patterns, your coping mechanisms, all of that good stuff.
[16:37] Bev Mitelman, M: So you work on yourself first.
[16:39] Bev Mitelman, M: And the by product is your relationships with other people become much smoother, right?
[16:46] Bev Mitelman, M: So this is, this is always about understanding your own mind.
[16:50] Bev Mitelman, M: I can tell you when I, when I found this work many years ago, I, I had been dealing my whole life with generalized anxiety, panic attacks.
[16:59] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and I just didn't understand.
[17:02] Bev Mitelman, M: You know, how could I get out of this?
[17:05] Bev Mitelman, M: And I had tried different modalities of therapy and, um, my attachment style and how to work towards secure attachment me was the changing.
[17:18] Bev Mitelman, M: That was, that was the big aha moment.
[17:21] Bev Mitelman, M: now I wake up and I don't feel anxious anymore.
[17:24] Bev Mitelman, M: And I, and I have a joy to my life that I didn't experience before.
[17:27] Bev Mitelman, M: So I, I, you know, when I meet with people, I say, do the work for yourself,
[17:32] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[17:33] Bev Mitelman, M: feel better.
[17:34] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[17:35] Angelo Santiago: I love.
[17:36] Angelo Santiago: Okay.
[18:28] Bev Mitelman, M: within insecure.
[18:30] Bev Mitelman, M: It it's, there are subcategories.
[18:33] Bev Mitelman, M: Okay.
[18:34] Bev Mitelman, M: So, uh, I'm sure you've heard people talk about four different attachment styles.
[18:39] Bev Mitelman, M: So what they're talking about is that there's one secure and there's three insecure.
[18:45] Bev Mitelman, M: Now the insecure attachment styles, we have something that's called anxious preoccupied.
[18:50] Bev Mitelman, M: So the anxious attacher is like on one side.
[18:53] Bev Mitelman, M: And then on the other side of the continuum is dismissive avoidant.
[18:58] Bev Mitelman, M: So that's the avoidance attacher.
[19:01] Bev Mitelman, M: then you have this category in the middle called the fearful avoidance, which is also sometimes called disorganized attachment.
[19:11] Bev Mitelman, M: Okay,
[19:11] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[19:22] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[19:32] Bev Mitelman, M: when, when, when you're invalidated, when you're put down, uh, when, you know, maybe, maybe mom had too many kids to raise and, and you didn't get the attention you needed when you're not praised, um, you know, for your ideas.
[19:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and the emphasis is more, for example, on just like Your achievements or if you're parentified, which is like an example of like, you know, being given responsibilities, you know, ahead of your, your age, right?
[20:01] Bev Mitelman, M: So maybe, maybe you were a teenager and you had to take care of the younger siblings and get them to school and you had to, and you had to cook and yeah, all of these scenarios leave.
[20:12] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, an individual feeling like they themselves didn't matter.
[20:17] Bev Mitelman, M: The only thing that was important in that scenario was to please the caregiver.
[20:22] Bev Mitelman, M: these are the roots of people pleasing.
[20:27] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[20:27] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and this is one of the trauma responses that someone who has anxious preoccupied attachment will actually, uh, exhibit most of the time.
[20:38] Bev Mitelman, M: And so these are people who typically feel alone.
[20:41] Bev Mitelman, M: They feel sad.
[20:42] Bev Mitelman, M: They feel anxious.
[20:44] Bev Mitelman, M: They feel overwhelmed.
[20:45] Bev Mitelman, M: They're carrying core wounds.
[20:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Of I will be abandoned because they've experienced it before and it and it feels like like such an incredible threat to their survival.
[20:57] Bev Mitelman, M: So I will be abandoned.
[20:59] Bev Mitelman, M: I will be alone.
[21:00] Bev Mitelman, M: I will be excluded.
[21:01] Bev Mitelman, M: I'm unlikable.
[21:03] Bev Mitelman, M: And it goes on and on.
[21:04] Bev Mitelman, M: And so you could imagine how those core wounds will color their perception of how they show up in the world.
[21:14] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and most people are, most people are totally unaware of these patterns and core wounds that they have, um, unless they have done the work, right?
[21:27] Bev Mitelman, M: So one of the interesting things that you can do to figure out what someone's core wounds are is just listen to what they're complaining about.
[21:34] Angelo Santiago: Mmhmm.
[21:35] Bev Mitelman, M: Like what, like, like what's irking at you, right?
[21:38] Bev Mitelman, M: And you'll, you'll typically find like thematically, you know, I feel like I'm not being seen.
[21:43] Bev Mitelman, M: I feel like I'm not being respected.
[21:46] Bev Mitelman, M: I feel like I'm losing my freedom.
[21:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Like thematically people will talk about.
[21:51] Bev Mitelman, M: the same things, but in indirect ways.
[21:56] Bev Mitelman, M: So it's sometimes kind of difficult without the help of a therapist to actually uncover these core wounds.
[22:02] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, but what's interesting about this group is, um, they are, they are very friendly.
[22:07] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they're generally very kind.
[22:09] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they put a lot of emphasis on romantic relationships and they move very fast.
[22:16] Bev Mitelman, M: their, in their, any type of personal relationship.
[22:20] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, you know, what's interesting again is that these folks didn't learn how to self soothe when they were younger.
[22:26] Bev Mitelman, M: So they're extremely reliant on external sources for validation, reassurance, soothing, um, for them to be alone in extreme cases is like corporal punishment.
[22:40] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[22:41] Angelo Santiago: Right,
[22:48] Bev Mitelman, M: by people all day long.
[22:50] Bev Mitelman, M: when I say that your attachment style actually impacts like almost every aspect of your life, it really does.
[22:57] Bev Mitelman, M: Now, coping mechanisms, um, they will usually people please, or they will fight as well if they feel that someone is pulling away from them because the idea of someone abandoning them, that being their core wound, stabs them in the heart in a way that it's hard to understand for someone who doesn't carry that core wound.
[23:22] Angelo Santiago: right.
[23:23] Bev Mitelman, M: Who never experienced that before.
[23:25] Bev Mitelman, M: So that's where you see some of these behaviors that people like to call is needy, clingy drama.
[23:32] Bev Mitelman, M: Like
[23:33] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[23:33] Bev Mitelman, M: call you all time.
[23:37] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, you know, uh, Like, I know your show is mostly men, like, so, you know, if a woman comes home and, you know, you guys are arguing about something and, and you're trying to take space and she's coming towards you and she's like, no, we need
[23:52] Angelo Santiago: Yep.
[23:52] Bev Mitelman, M: about it now.
[23:53] Bev Mitelman, M: I can't go to sleep angry.
[23:54] Bev Mitelman, M: I don't want this to last another three days.
[23:56] Bev Mitelman, M: And so.
[23:57] Bev Mitelman, M: What that person is trying to do is she's trying to regulate her, like her dysregulated emotion system.
[24:05] Bev Mitelman, M: And she needs you to help her do that because she's
[24:10] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[24:10] Bev Mitelman, M: self soothe, which would be in complete contrast, likely to the way that you want to handle conflict and what feels good to your nervous system.
[24:21] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[24:21] Bev Mitelman, M: get a lot of conflict is in communication style and and coping mechanisms.
[24:28] Bev Mitelman, M: so I'm gonna put the anxious preoccupied Aside for a moment, I'm going to talk about dismissive avoidance.
[24:35] Bev Mitelman, M: So by the way, we often talk about, uh, anxious preoccupied as the woman and the dismissive avoidance as the man, um, attachment styles are not gendered.
[24:48] Angelo Santiago: Mm hmm.
[24:48] Bev Mitelman, M: means, you know, as humans, you can feel, you know, lots of different emotions.
[24:53] Bev Mitelman, M: It depends on the exposure you had early on.
[24:57] Bev Mitelman, M: It depends a little bit on socialization as well, right?
[25:02] Bev Mitelman, M: And so there's plenty of men who are anxious and plenty of women who are dismissive.
[25:07] Bev Mitelman, M: I myself fall very strongly in the dismissive camp.
[25:12] Bev Mitelman, M: So just to dispel Any sort of, you know, thoughts that, that all women are like, no, it's actually attachment styles are not gendered at all.
[25:22] Bev Mitelman, M: So.
[25:22] Angelo Santiago: And you know, like, I want to add to that because you said, yes, this shows up most strongly in romantic relationships, but it's across the board.
[25:31] Angelo Santiago: And so if I think of myself of, yeah, when I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed by say my wife, like maybe there's a tendency and certainly a lot more in the past before I.
[25:42] Angelo Santiago: Did my own work on this is that I would run away.
[25:45] Angelo Santiago: I want to, I would want to close the door.
[25:47] Angelo Santiago: I'd want to take my own space.
[25:48] Angelo Santiago: I'd want to get out of there, like, leave me alone.
[25:50] Angelo Santiago: Um, but then the reality is that if I look at like friendships, that's not the same scenario, you know?
[25:57] Angelo Santiago: Like if, if I have somebody that.
[25:59] Angelo Santiago: That I care about.
[26:00] Angelo Santiago: That's a friend, you know, maybe I will lean in a little bit more and be like, Hey, are you okay?
[26:04] Angelo Santiago: Like, let me, let me be there for you.
[26:06] Angelo Santiago: Like, instead of trying to run away from them, like there is something different there and it goes again, whether it's, you know, your workplace or family members, even, I mean, there's, you know, you, We could go all over the place with this, but let's stick with the romantic relationship because that's kind of the core of the show here.
[26:23] Angelo Santiago: Um, so yeah, I can relate to, uh, myself leaning more in the avoidant side of the scale in my partnership.
[26:30] Angelo Santiago: Um, it still shows up on a bad day, certainly not nearly as much as it used to, which, you know, I'm super grateful for and the quality of my marriage reflects that, um, and understanding kind of where my wife, you know, Was on that spectrum that you described has also helped that like, she tells me exactly what she needs to hear from me for her nervous system to calm down.
[26:51] Angelo Santiago: Cause she is a little bit more, um, you know, feels that that level of abandonment is a fear for her.
[26:58] Angelo Santiago: And, and so every time I want that space, it triggers that in her.
[27:02] Angelo Santiago: So, like you said, it's like when you're opposed on that spectrum, that's when the challenges show up.
[27:08] Angelo Santiago: So go ahead and so take us through a little bit through the avoidance side of the attachment styles.
[27:13] Bev Mitelman, M: Yeah, you bring up such great points.
[27:15] Bev Mitelman, M: Thank you.
[27:16] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, so, so, you know, again, those who grew up with a dismissive avoidant attachment style also came out of a home where they felt unsafe, usually a home where there was neglect.
[27:28] Bev Mitelman, M: you know, it could be a very strict home.
[27:30] Bev Mitelman, M: It could be a highly religious home.
[27:32] Bev Mitelman, M: It could be a home where the parents really just didn't see the kids.
[27:36] Bev Mitelman, M: The kids were validated, you know, for achievements, but nothing else.
[27:40] Bev Mitelman, M: The kid could have been heavily punished if, you know, there were certain emotions that they, that were allowable and not allowable.
[27:50] Bev Mitelman, M: So there's all sorts of scenarios, but the child was emotionally neglected and left alone.
[27:55] Bev Mitelman, M: Probably a lot of the times with their own feelings to work it out on their own.
[27:59] Bev Mitelman, M: And so they develop a sense of, you know, uh, to survive in this world.
[28:05] Bev Mitelman, M: I have me, myself and I, uh, and I, uh, I, you know, I become overly self reliant.
[28:12] Bev Mitelman, M: hyper independent.
[28:14] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and then, you know, some of the core ones that I have is, you know, I'll lose my freedom, my independence.
[28:20] Bev Mitelman, M: I will feel trapped.
[28:21] Bev Mitelman, M: I will.
[28:22] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, are folks who are generally very, very slow moving in relationships.
[28:30] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, it's very difficult to sort of build a level of trust with them because they didn't learn trust.
[28:39] Bev Mitelman, M: early childhood.
[28:41] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they also didn't learn very much about emotions, particularly this group.
[28:46] Bev Mitelman, M: So like if, you know, a parent is very stoic, or maybe, you know, maybe a parent is emotionally unavailable.
[28:55] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they really didn't learn how.
[28:58] Bev Mitelman, M: to handle emotions.
[29:00] Bev Mitelman, M: So this particular group does an exceptionally good job of just pushing all the emotions down.
[29:06] Bev Mitelman, M: What we often see with dismissive avoidance is that, um, they experience anger and rage.
[29:14] Bev Mitelman, M: More than any other group, because those seem to be the only acceptable
[29:20] Angelo Santiago: Yep,
[29:21] Bev Mitelman, M: feelings that they had at that point in time.
[29:23] Bev Mitelman, M: Right?
[29:24] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, so, so that's an interesting one, but, um, they, they struggle in relationships to be able to open up, and to connect on an emotional level, uh, especially if the other partner is wanting a level of emotional depth.
[29:40] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they struggle with this because they're disconnected from their own self, right?
[29:45] Bev Mitelman, M: So it's something that they just haven't learned to do just yet.
[29:48] Bev Mitelman, M: They have kept themselves safe by building a fortress around them,
[29:54] Angelo Santiago: yep.
[29:55] Bev Mitelman, M: Whether they realize it or not.
[29:57] Bev Mitelman, M: And then some, you know, well intended person comes along and tries to love them.
[30:02] Bev Mitelman, M: And they're like, You're getting too close.
[30:05] Bev Mitelman, M: You're getting too close.
[30:06] Bev Mitelman, M: I'm getting the ick.
[30:07] Bev Mitelman, M: It doesn't feel good.
[30:08] Bev Mitelman, M: My anxiety is going up.
[30:09] Bev Mitelman, M: I must run.
[30:10] Bev Mitelman, M: And so this is what avoidance do is, is that they're coping.
[30:14] Bev Mitelman, M: The way that they cope with things is they stonewall, they don't engage.
[30:19] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they won't answer texts.
[30:20] Bev Mitelman, M: They won't pick up the phone.
[30:21] Bev Mitelman, M: They won't speak to you for three days.
[30:23] Bev Mitelman, M: They'll walk out of a room.
[30:25] Bev Mitelman, M: Because they feel so overwhelmed by their emotions and confused because they don't, again, they, they don't really know the emotions that they're feeling.
[30:35] Bev Mitelman, M: They don't even when sensations come up in the body and it feels bad.
[30:39] Bev Mitelman, M: I'm like, Oh, it's my just get rid of that feeling.
[30:42] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[30:43] Angelo Santiago: Yep.
[30:44] Bev Mitelman, M: these are very, very rational thinkers.
[30:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, they're very logical.
[30:49] Bev Mitelman, M: It's like, heard, I've heard dismissive avoidance say, I don't do feelings.
[30:55] Angelo Santiago: Bev, thank you for describing me a few years ago.
[30:57] Angelo Santiago: this, this is, I can relate to absolutely everything that you shared, both from the, like building the fortress to the logical self, to being disconnected from my emotions, from having the person who's trying to love me and me, Pushing that away with all sorts of, you know, actions and decisions and words.
[31:16] Angelo Santiago: And that just is when I look back on it, I'd be like, man, what, what a state I was in, you know, and, and how grateful I am to not be in that state anymore to really, let me reemphasize, if you're listening here and you find yourself in one of these states to know that.
[31:31] Angelo Santiago: That's not like the sentence for the rest of your life.
[31:34] Angelo Santiago: You're not stuck there.
[31:35] Angelo Santiago: Like Bev mentioned, you can unlearn it.
[31:37] Angelo Santiago: You can relearn ways of, of relating and, and developing a secure attachment style.
[31:44] Angelo Santiago: So, so you, you found me and that's exactly where I was as dismissive avoidant.
[31:49] Angelo Santiago: Um, and that, that feels, you know, if, if you can relate with that, you can hold your hand up, say, yeah, me too.
[31:54] Bev Mitelman, M: yeah.
[31:55] Bev Mitelman, M: And I'm so glad you said that, but, but I too was dismissive of wood.
[31:59] Bev Mitelman, M: And so I, I, I speak about it from a personal perspective as well.
[32:03] Bev Mitelman, M: There were points in my life where, you know, I, Like it was only recently in the last couple of years where I've learned that I, I actually enjoy cuddling.
[32:14] Bev Mitelman, M: I, before I like, it gave me the ick.
[32:18] Bev Mitelman, M: I was like, Hmm, it doesn't feel kind of, it feels unsafe.
[32:23] Bev Mitelman, M: It doesn't feel comfortable.
[32:25] Bev Mitelman, M: It doesn't, uh, and so.
[32:27] Bev Mitelman, M: But that's because my thought pattern was don't get too close to someone, right?
[32:33] Bev Mitelman, M: Subconsciously, it wasn't on a conscious level.
[32:36] Bev Mitelman, M: Now, the interesting thing is the core wound that the dismissive avoidant carries it's a shame wound.
[32:43] Bev Mitelman, M: if you get too close to me, you'll also realize that I'm defective.
[32:48] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[32:49] Bev Mitelman, M: And you will reject me in the same way my parents did.
[32:53] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[32:54] Bev Mitelman, M: when
[32:54] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[32:55] Bev Mitelman, M: at it this way and, and, you know, uh, a lot of people will go, well, I don't feel that way.
[32:59] Bev Mitelman, M: And I said, I'm like, I didn't ask how you feel.
[33:01] Bev Mitelman, M: This is a wound that's deep in your pattern.
[33:04] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[33:05] Bev Mitelman, M: And you may not realize that it's impacting what you do, but there's a reason why you feel unsafe in letting people into your emotional world.
[33:16] Bev Mitelman, M: So all the things that you do.
[33:19] Bev Mitelman, M: you know, uh, someone who's dismissive avoidance will be very careful around their space.
[33:23] Bev Mitelman, M: They don't easily invite you into their home.
[33:26] Bev Mitelman, M: They're very careful with their time.
[33:28] Bev Mitelman, M: and it's, it's not because they're not generous.
[33:30] Bev Mitelman, M: It's because they need a fair amount of alone time and freedom.
[33:36] Bev Mitelman, M: To regulate their own nervous system, right?
[33:39] Bev Mitelman, M: Which is totally opposite from the anxious preoccupied who needs someone else to step in to help them regulate.
[33:46] Bev Mitelman, M: So now you have a scenario where you potentially have two people dating or married and they have completely different coping mechanisms.
[33:55] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[33:56] Bev Mitelman, M: this is where the challenge comes in because it comes from the same, the same place.
[34:01] Bev Mitelman, M: Both of them grew up in a home where they felt unsafe.
[34:05] Bev Mitelman, M: have this unsafe wound.
[34:06] Bev Mitelman, M: It may look a little different.
[34:09] Bev Mitelman, M: needs to do this to feel safe.
[34:10] Bev Mitelman, M: The other one needs to do this to feel safe and they're polar opposites.
[34:14] Bev Mitelman, M: So how do you bring those folks together?
[34:17] Bev Mitelman, M: that's where we start off on our, on our next, our next podcast, because there really is, there are ways to bridge.
[34:24] Bev Mitelman, M: To bridge the gap there, right?
[34:26] Bev Mitelman, M: Understanding and awareness is like the most important thing you can do.
[34:29] Bev Mitelman, M: Like if, if, if your wife, for example, is coming at you and she's saying, well, we have to talk about it now.
[34:37] Bev Mitelman, M: It's because for her, the emotions feel so overwhelmingly big that she can't even think about the idea of waiting another day to talk to you about it.
[34:51] Bev Mitelman, M: It's so disruptive to her nervous system.
[34:55] Bev Mitelman, M: It causes her that much anxiety.
[34:57] Bev Mitelman, M: So, It's, uh, it's interesting.
[34:59] Bev Mitelman, M: Now, these two groups also, there's a lot of when we talk about coping mechanisms, there's quite a bit we see of addictions in these groups, a little bit more so dismissive avoidance.
[35:11] Bev Mitelman, M: So what dismissive avoidance will do is they will numb their pain.
[35:17] Bev Mitelman, M: Or they'll numb their emotions.
[35:19] Bev Mitelman, M: If they feel their emotions, they'll numb it even further down.
[35:22] Bev Mitelman, M: And so it's very common to see alcohol drinking, sorry, same thing.
[35:28] Bev Mitelman, M: Drugs, gambling, all sorts of things.
[35:32] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, porn, anything to sort of numb that emotion.
[35:36] Bev Mitelman, M: Now the
[35:37] Angelo Santiago: Yep.
[35:38] Bev Mitelman, M: will also use.
[35:40] Bev Mitelman, M: is also very, I would say, right for addiction because their emotions are, are so big, they're trying to dampen them down as well.
[35:49] Bev Mitelman, M: and so you might see like binge eating, you might see like excessive shopping.
[35:53] Bev Mitelman, M: You might, there's all sorts of things that, that we do to sort of ourselves or run away from these really uncomfortable feelings that we're having the end of the day.
[36:05] Bev Mitelman, M: That's what this work is about.
[36:07] Bev Mitelman, M: It's about facing this.
[36:08] Bev Mitelman, M: It's about being
[36:09] Angelo Santiago: Yep.
[36:10] Bev Mitelman, M: and saying, Hey, I do have these feelings and that's okay, I can learn to regulate and then I can have a much better, clearer conversation with my partner.
[36:22] Angelo Santiago: Love it, Bev.
[36:22] Angelo Santiago: This is so good.
[36:23] Angelo Santiago: And, and like you mentioned, there's, and how I started, you know, the introduction to this episode is like, there is extreme amount of depth here.
[36:31] Angelo Santiago: There's so much for us to talk about and how this leads to communication, how to leave.
[36:37] Angelo Santiago: This leads into intimacy.
[36:38] Angelo Santiago: This leads into conflict resolution in marriage.
[36:41] Angelo Santiago: Like, All those things to help you be a better husband, to help your marriage flourish.
[36:46] Angelo Santiago: There has to be a willingness for you to see your part, right?
[36:50] Angelo Santiago: Sometimes it's really easy in relationship to look at your partner and be like, well, if they didn't do X, Y, and Z, then I wouldn't do that.
[36:58] Angelo Santiago: Right?
[36:58] Angelo Santiago: Like that's putting it on them.
[36:59] Angelo Santiago: And yes, they have their part too, but you can't control that.
[37:03] Angelo Santiago: You can control how you show up.
[37:05] Angelo Santiago: I want to leave, you know, those that are listening here with a little piece of.
[37:10] Angelo Santiago: Something that has helped me and then I invite you to kind of share a little bit for them.
[37:13] Angelo Santiago: Like what's, what are some actionable steps that they could take just today?
[37:17] Angelo Santiago: Nothing major, but just to get them moving till we get to talk again.
[37:21] Angelo Santiago: Um, for me, the one thing I've learned is that, you know, in, in your marriage, you both have the right to, to be triggered and be dysregulated.
[37:31] Angelo Santiago: You just can't do it at the same time.
[37:32] Angelo Santiago: you has to do your best to, to take a breath, to calm your nervous system, to come back to that wise adult self.
[37:43] Angelo Santiago: In your brain that's able to look at the person across from you and be like, this is the person that I love.
[37:49] Angelo Santiago: This is the person that I care about.
[37:50] Angelo Santiago: And can I give them what they need right now?
[37:52] Angelo Santiago: Even though it's like, like you said, the ick, even though it's like the thing that I least want to do right now, can I stand in my center and my groundedness and, and tell her that, Hey, I'm not going anywhere.
[38:04] Angelo Santiago: What do you, I'm here.
[38:05] Angelo Santiago: I'm listening.
[38:06] Angelo Santiago: What do you need?
[38:07] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[38:07] Angelo Santiago: Or if it's the opposite way around.
[38:10] Angelo Santiago: Can your partner do that from you?
[38:12] Angelo Santiago: And when they do that for you, can you see it?
[38:15] Angelo Santiago: Can you receive it instead of kind of keep going on the attack or keep going on the running away, right?
[38:21] Angelo Santiago: If you're able to stay in your grounded, centered self.
[38:26] Angelo Santiago: While your partner is having a bad day, that's a good day for the marriage.
[38:31] Angelo Santiago: Um, it's easier said than done, but even if you do another saying from, from one of my mentors is like, even if you do this badly, you're already doing better than a majority of the people out there, but you have to give it a shot.
[38:44] Angelo Santiago: So I just want to leave the listeners with that and the people watching with that, that what would you want to say for somebody who has been like, Oh man, yeah.
[38:51] Angelo Santiago: I am the dismissive avoided my partners, the anxious preoccupied.
[38:54] Angelo Santiago: We get into that.
[38:56] Angelo Santiago: Circus, Ferris wheel every single day.
[39:00] Angelo Santiago: What would you want to say to them to just like baby step it to the next part of today?
[39:06] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, it really is a great question.
[39:10] Bev Mitelman, M: So, uh, the tagline of my company is love isn't blind.
[39:15] Bev Mitelman, M: Love is learned.
[39:17] Bev Mitelman, M: So it is a learned skill.
[39:20] Bev Mitelman, M: emotional regulation is a learned skill.
[39:24] Bev Mitelman, M: and if you did not learn it in your family of origin, which many of us didn't, there's no shame, there's no blame.
[39:32] Bev Mitelman, M: You learn it later and that's okay too.
[39:36] Bev Mitelman, M: Right.
[39:36] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, I would invite people to start their journey towards awareness.
[39:42] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and one of the, you know, fun ways you can do that on my website, it's SecurelyLoved.Com There's a little button at the top that says free attachment quiz.
[39:52] Bev Mitelman, M: You can do this alone.
[39:54] Bev Mitelman, M: You can do it with your partner.
[39:55] Bev Mitelman, M: It doesn't matter.
[39:56] Bev Mitelman, M: The results go just to you.
[39:57] Bev Mitelman, M: It's private.
[39:58] Bev Mitelman, M: It doesn't go to anyone else.
[39:59] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and, and you answer a couple of questions and it'll give you an idea of where you fall on the scale.
[40:05] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, and I would, you know, if it interests you.
[40:09] Bev Mitelman, M: Uh, I would start doing a little bit more reading.
[40:12] Bev Mitelman, M: There's a lot of content on YouTube, good, valuable content.
[40:18] Bev Mitelman, M: and you know, when I say that your attachment style truly does impact quality of the relationships that you're going to have throughout your life.
[40:28] Bev Mitelman, M: That is a very true statement.
[40:30] Bev Mitelman, M: So if you're on the road to wanting to improve your relationships, romantic or otherwise, um, know, a little bit into attachment styles.
[40:41] Bev Mitelman, M: I think you will be very, very surprised.
[40:44] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and we also, we also, uh, offer like a free 20 minute consult if you want to consult with us.
[40:50] Bev Mitelman, M: So there's lots of like easy ways to start thinking about attachment styles and then, um, start your journey there.
[40:58] Angelo Santiago: That's great, Bev, and I'm going to drop some links in the show notes.
[41:02] Angelo Santiago: So if this has piqued your interest, you want to learn more.
[41:05] Angelo Santiago: You can check out securely love.
[41:07] Angelo Santiago: There'll be a link in the show notes.
[41:08] Angelo Santiago: You can also reach out to Bev and all the practitioners that work there.
[41:13] Angelo Santiago: Um, and also your YouTube channel, which has more interviews, more content that, that you've already done.
[41:19] Angelo Santiago: So the information is out there.
[41:20] Angelo Santiago: The desire to learn a little bit more to lean in to this thing that may feel uncomfortable because you are learning Experiences about yourself that you're maybe not super proud of.
[41:32] Angelo Santiago: I know that was the case for me.
[41:33] Angelo Santiago: I had to face that I had to take off the mask, put down the fortress walls and get real with myself.
[41:41] Angelo Santiago: Um, so that's a huge piece.
[41:43] Angelo Santiago: I'm going to make sure that, um, If you want to connect with Bev, go to the show notes.
[41:47] Angelo Santiago: I got that taken care of.
[41:49] Angelo Santiago: And Bev, I want to end the show like I end all shows with a little bit of a scenario.
[41:55] Angelo Santiago: And based on the scenario, and I know it's limited information, but based on your expertise and you hear somebody come to you with this scenario, What you would want them to know, what would you encourage them to do?
[42:06] Angelo Santiago: Um, and just anything else that you could give us the listeners and those watching, um, a little bit of insight into what you think.
[42:13] Angelo Santiago: So this message comes in and says, so my wife is upset that I talk to my friends on the phone a good amount of time each day and I usually spend about an hour talking to a few buddies as I do stuff around the house.
[42:24] Angelo Santiago: She's upset that I don't talk to her more and says I make an effort to do things with them, but not her.
[42:30] Angelo Santiago: She says that I don't want to go anywhere with her or do anything with her, that I don't plan things that she wants to do.
[42:36] Angelo Santiago: Neither her nor I can recall me refusing to do anything she has asked to do in the last couple of years.
[42:41] Angelo Santiago: And I ask her, What are your plans for the weekend?
[42:43] Angelo Santiago: Do you want to do anything?
[42:45] Angelo Santiago: And all I get is an I don't know or maybe.
[42:48] Angelo Santiago: She says that I should just know what she wants to do and do things she wants to do.
[42:53] Angelo Santiago: I don't know what she wants because she won't tell me.
[42:57] Angelo Santiago: I recently got into mountain biking and tried to include her to get her a bike, but she refused.
[43:01] Angelo Santiago: I've asked her about hiking, disc golf, a wide array of things, and she always says she doesn't want to do that, but then complains when I don't plan things she wants to do.
[43:10] Angelo Santiago: So this goes on a little bit longer and longer, but that's the situation that this married couple is in.
[43:16] Angelo Santiago: What would you want to say to the person that's writing this?
[43:20] Bev Mitelman, M: So I'm going to say, first off, um, us as humans, we are really bad at mind reading.
[43:28] Bev Mitelman, M: It's not a skill that we have.
[43:30] Bev Mitelman, M: And, and we, we do this sometimes where we're so convinced in our own perspective, we're like, well, it's just obvious, but it's not.
[43:40] Bev Mitelman, M: especially if you have different attachment styles, your expectations are completely different, right?
[43:47] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and so, you know, someone who's anxious, preoccupied, might think that it's normal to spend all your time with your spouse and someone who's dismissive of, uh, avoidant might think that, you know what, a little bit here and there.
[44:00] Bev Mitelman, M: Like, so even your idea of how much time you spend together would be different unless you specifically talk about it and negotiate, right?
[44:08] Bev Mitelman, M: So, um, if it's the wife in this case that is not being clear, like, I've asked, what is it that you want to do?
[44:17] Bev Mitelman, M: And she doesn't tell you, well, she really should spend a little time thinking about what brings her joy.
[44:24] Bev Mitelman, M: is the type of, you know, time that she wants to spend with her husband?
[44:28] Bev Mitelman, M: Is it going for a hike?
[44:29] Bev Mitelman, M: Is it going for a fancy dinner?
[44:32] Bev Mitelman, M: Is it cuddling on the couch?
[44:34] Bev Mitelman, M: But she has to figure out what's going to bring her pleasure and what's going to meet her needs.
[44:41] Bev Mitelman, M: So I don't think that the wife has been fair in this case because I think that she's expecting her husband to mind read.
[44:49] Bev Mitelman, M: And that's just, it might be also that the wife just doesn't know, right?
[44:53] Bev Mitelman, M: I don't think she's maliciously saying, I want you to figure it out.
[44:56] Bev Mitelman, M: I think she doesn't know.
[44:58] Bev Mitelman, M: So that's some of the
[44:59] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[44:59] Bev Mitelman, M: do here is, is that we talk about how to, you know, what are your personality needs?
[45:04] Bev Mitelman, M: What is it that you need to feel content and peaceful?
[45:07] Bev Mitelman, M: Um, and so she has a little bit of work to figure out about what she really wants from, uh, her husband.
[45:14] Bev Mitelman, M: now remember I said at the beginning, we can tell people's wounds by what they complain about.
[45:22] Bev Mitelman, M: The one thing she's complaining about here.
[45:25] Bev Mitelman, M: Is that he's on the phone with his buddies all the time and he doesn't speak to her.
[45:30] Bev Mitelman, M: So that gives me some indication that she has some wound there about feeling unseen, unheard, unloved, not feeling like a priority, um, whatever it may be.
[45:43] Bev Mitelman, M: So that could be driving her behavior.
[45:46] Bev Mitelman, M: Subconsciously.
[45:47] Bev Mitelman, M: So I would say, if you know that this is irking your partner, then come home and spend 20 minutes chit chatting while you're preparing dinner with her before you pick up the phone and call the other three friends.
[46:01] Bev Mitelman, M: Like fill that cup first.
[46:05] Bev Mitelman, M: And it's an easy one.
[46:06] Bev Mitelman, M: She's complaining about it.
[46:07] Bev Mitelman, M: Right?
[46:08] Bev Mitelman, M: So, when a woman complains about the amount of time that a partner is spending with them or not spending with them, that's their way of saying, I feel disconnected from you, or I don't feel like you're making me a priority.
[46:23] Bev Mitelman, M: So let me just decode that sentence.
[46:26] Bev Mitelman, M: Right?
[46:26] Angelo Santiago: I love that.
[46:27] Angelo Santiago: Yep.
[46:28] Bev Mitelman, M: So I think they
[46:29] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[46:29] Bev Mitelman, M: work to do.
[46:30] Angelo Santiago: I love that you pointed out that there is some information here of what she's asking for.
[46:35] Angelo Santiago: And it may be how she's asking for it could use a little, you know, work for her to be like, Hey, what I really want is for you to just.
[46:41] Angelo Santiago: Talk to me more.
[46:43] Angelo Santiago: And so maybe this guy is wanting to do more activities.
[46:47] Angelo Santiago: Maybe he's a very physically active.
[46:48] Angelo Santiago: That's what brings him joy and fun.
[46:49] Angelo Santiago: And maybe that's not the same for her.
[46:51] Angelo Santiago: So if I was talking to him, I'd be like, okay, well, you know, here's what she's asking for.
[46:55] Angelo Santiago: Like, are you willing to give her some of this, even if it's not mountain biking and hiking and disc golf, maybe she doesn't want to do those things.
[47:03] Angelo Santiago: And then I can relate to this scenario because.
[47:06] Angelo Santiago: You know, I would look at the things that my wife sometimes likes to do for fun and they don't necessarily match what I like to do for fun.
[47:14] Bev Mitelman, M: Of
[47:14] Angelo Santiago: And so that's where relationship comes in, relationality.
[47:18] Angelo Santiago: Like, are you willing to be a better husband in the way of like finding some time and interest in the thing that your partner Loves doing for fun, even if it doesn't bring you the most ultimate joy, right?
[47:33] Angelo Santiago: It's not about sacrificing yourself, but it's about giving them something that brings them joy, which should bring you joy.
[47:41] Angelo Santiago: That's, that's another thing I'll add.
[47:42] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[47:48] Bev Mitelman, M: creates a sense of shared purpose.
[47:50] Bev Mitelman, M: So like when, if you're like renovating a house or maybe you're both learning Spanish, or maybe, you know, you're planning your next trip because you want to see parts of Italy or whatever it is, um, that sort of shared There's like a, that shared purpose
[48:07] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[48:07] Bev Mitelman, M: having that level of connection, I promise you it would make a world of difference.
[48:11] Angelo Santiago: thank you so much.
[48:12] Angelo Santiago: I just want to just extreme gratitude for you coming on here on the show, sharing so much of your wisdom, knowing that there's more.
[48:19] Angelo Santiago: So if you're listening and you like what you've heard, just stick around.
[48:23] Angelo Santiago: There's going to be more of this in the future.
[48:25] Angelo Santiago: I guarantee it.
[48:26] Angelo Santiago: This is an important topic and there's a lot here for us to unpack, uh, for ourselves.
[48:31] Angelo Santiago: So so much.
[48:31] Angelo Santiago: For our marriage, for our relationships outside of our marriage, just how we interact as humans.
[48:37] Angelo Santiago: Like this is key.
[48:38] Angelo Santiago: So that thank you so much for being here.
[48:40] Angelo Santiago: Is there anything you want to drop here on the show before we head out?
[48:45] Bev Mitelman, M: no, I just want to thank you for the opportunity and, and remind people that they can take the free quiz, uh, online at securelyloved.
[48:54] Bev Mitelman, M: They can book myself or any of the practitioners I work with who are fantastic group.
[48:59] Bev Mitelman, M: they do individual counseling group sessions, all that.
[49:03] Bev Mitelman, M: It's all on my website.
[49:04] Bev Mitelman, M: So if you're interested, please check that out.
[49:07] Angelo Santiago: Check it out.
[49:08] Angelo Santiago: Securely loved.
[49:09] Angelo Santiago: Thank you for joining us on better husband.
[49:11] Angelo Santiago: If you feel like you got any value from this episode, Make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button.
[49:16] Angelo Santiago: If you have any questions, comments, or have a situation in your marriage that you want for me to cover on the show, you can text me or email me using the links in the show notes.
[49:26] Angelo Santiago: I'm here every week to help you become a better husband.
[49:29] Angelo Santiago: I'm Angelo Santiago.
[49:31] Angelo Santiago: Thanks again for being part of this community and I'll see you on the next one.

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