# 002|How To Be a S.T.R.O.N.G. Husband With Kristal DeSantis

An episode of [BETTER HUSBAND | Marriage Advice, Trust, Intimacy, Emotional Connection](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1714824313), 12 Nov 2024, 47 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2405322/episodes/16085937-002-how-to-be-a-s-t-r-o-n-g-husband-with-kristal-desantis.mp3

In this episode, I am joined by Kristal DeSantis, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and we discuss themes from her book 'Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man.' Key topics include evolving paradigms of masculinity, the foundational elements of a STRONG relationship (Safety, Trust, Respect, Openness, Nurturing, Generosity), and practical advice for nurturing emotional connection. We also address a question about maintaining intimacy and growth in marriage. - Buy Kristal's Book: Strong: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man https://www.amazon.com/Strong-Relationship-Field-Guide-Modern/dp/1959099027/ 👉 Better Husband Secrets Watch my free 3 Secrets Workshop to learn why your efforts aren’t helping your marriage and what you can do differently. Go to https://betterhusbandsecrets.com 🧰 Better Husband Toolkit Get this free toolkit and learn the 3 essential skills you need to rebuild trust and closeness—even if things feel off right now. Go to https://www.betterhusbandtoolkit.com 💍 Join Better Husband Academy Join me and the other men on the path of becoming a Better Husband at https://www.betterhusbandacademy.com Questions? 📩 Email Me → angelo@angelosantiago.com

## Transcript

[0:00] Angelo Santiago: Welcome to Better Husband, the show that helps you answer the simple question: How can I be a better husband?
[0:06] Angelo Santiago: I'm Angelo Santiago.
[0:07] Angelo Santiago: And today I'm joined by Kristal DeSantis.
[0:09] Angelo Santiago: Kristal is a licensed marriage and family therapist who is passionate about men's mental health and healthy modern relationships.
[0:17] Angelo Santiago: Her recent book strong, a relationship field guide for the modern man is all about the challenges that men face in our current culture and steps that we can take to build strong, healthy, intimate marriages in this episode, we'll be talking about the old paradigm of masculinity compared to the new opportunity for men to step into, the five things needed for a strong relationship.
[0:41] Angelo Santiago: And we'll focus on three points that can help you nurture the emotional connection in your marriage.
[0:47] Angelo Santiago: So stick around.
[0:48] Angelo Santiago: You don't want to miss this.
[1:04] Angelo Santiago: Hey Kristal Thank you so much for being here.
[1:06] Angelo Santiago: I'm super excited to connect with you on your book and everything that you are helping and guiding men towards being better husbands and hopefully answer some questions for the listeners of what they can do today.
[1:18] Angelo Santiago: I'm excited.
[1:19] Angelo Santiago: Thank you for saying yes to being here.
[1:21] Angelo Santiago: And it's an honor to have you as a guest.
[1:23] Kristal DeSantis: Thank you so much for having me.
[1:25] Kristal DeSantis: I'm excited for this conversation.
[1:27] Angelo Santiago: When I saw your work and your profile about everything that you're doing out there, and particularly this book that you wrote, I kind of, something hit me.
[1:35] Angelo Santiago: I was like, this has to be the first person I have as a guest on this new podcast.
[1:40] Angelo Santiago: Like I just, the work you were doing and what you were sharing and your specific focus on men in relationship was like, this is exactly the work that was in integral for me in my life and why I'm so dedicated to sharing, you know, this information with other men out there, because I feel like there isn't as much access that's focused just on men of like, what's going on in our modern culture.
[2:07] Angelo Santiago: Why are so many of us struggling to be better partners, better husbands, and why sometimes the messages gets mixed.
[2:15] Angelo Santiago: So your book strong.
[2:17] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[2:17] Angelo Santiago: A relationship field guide for the modern man is all about that.
[2:21] Angelo Santiago: And I mean, I just want to jump into it and, and start talking about some of the points.
[2:26] Angelo Santiago: You shared the book with me.
[2:28] Angelo Santiago: It was amazing when I read through it, I highly recommend it to all of the listeners, we'll have a link in the show notes for it.
[2:35] Angelo Santiago: And the book opens up with this idea of the old strong man versus the new strong man.
[2:41] Angelo Santiago: And you describe this old strong kind of paradigm of a man as being the protector, right, to, to offer protection.
[2:50] Angelo Santiago: Provision and procreation, and you said that's shifted now and what what's needed is for men to embrace this ability to offer what is now being asked for in relationship.
[3:05] Angelo Santiago: So share a little bit about your thoughts on the old strong man.
[3:08] Angelo Santiago: Like, what are those things about?
[3:09] Angelo Santiago: Where did that come from?
[3:11] Angelo Santiago: And what is the new strong man look like?
[3:13] Kristal DeSantis: I was really fascinated by this, you know, in my work because so often kind of like you mentioned, I would see men come into therapy, just really confused about why their partner wasn't happy or what they were not doing in the relationship because, you know, The roles of men have changed very quickly in a very short period of time.
[3:35] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[3:35] Kristal DeSantis: And so the paradigms of, you know, a man is supposed to be a protector.
[3:39] Kristal DeSantis: He's supposed to be a provider, and he's supposed to be able to give his wife babies if she wants them.
[3:44] Kristal DeSantis: I mean, that was a pretty, uh, Concrete script for generations of men, right?
[3:49] Kristal DeSantis: Maybe even the generation of parents that your listeners grew up with.
[3:54] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[3:55] Kristal DeSantis: So I think that's really what I saw was, you know, why isn't this old script working anymore?
[4:01] Kristal DeSantis: I'm trying to protect my family.
[4:02] Kristal DeSantis: I'm trying to provide, I, you know, We have a kid.
[4:06] Kristal DeSantis: What's not working here?
[4:08] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so what I started to get into, you know, listening to women and then the work that I did.
[4:13] Kristal DeSantis: I mean, I've been a therapist now for 10 years.
[4:16] Kristal DeSantis: And then, of course, all the research and the training is, you know, also wanted to make it clear that, you know, being a strong man is not the problem, right?
[4:26] Kristal DeSantis: So this is not the binary of like the old strong man.
[4:29] Kristal DeSantis: And now men are supposed to be subservient and weak.
[4:32] Kristal DeSantis: And like, you know, the roles are just reversed.
[4:34] Kristal DeSantis: Now it's the era of the strong woman.
[4:36] Kristal DeSantis: Um, in, in that, so that's part of why I named my book strong and really focused on that is because What does the new strong man look like and how is it maybe more nuanced, more evolved, more mature than these almost like caricatures of what masculinity looked like in the past.
[4:55] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[4:56] Kristal DeSantis: So yeah, in the past being a protector was physical protection.
[5:01] Kristal DeSantis: Being a provider was financial provision and being a procreator was, you know, that was it.
[5:06] Kristal DeSantis: You weren't really necessarily expected to be involved in the parenting part of Piece of the equation, Um, and all that has changed the modern woman and their healthy man as well is not looking to be shoehorned into these kind of objectified roles Right.
[5:23] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so really what i'm seeing is What does it mean to be a present parent and partner, right?
[5:30] Kristal DeSantis: And how can you, as a man, maybe inhabit your protector, but in a slightly different way?
[5:36] Kristal DeSantis: Maybe it shows up as emotional protection rather than, you know, gosh, baby, I'm hitting the gym so I can fight anybody that tries to break into our house.
[5:43] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, yeah, that's cool.
[5:44] Kristal DeSantis: And maybe emotional protection is really what feels better these days.
[5:51] Kristal DeSantis: Um.
[5:52] Kristal DeSantis: And same thing with financial provision versus, you know, the provision of your presence, uh, provision of
[5:59] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[6:00] Kristal DeSantis: and all of these other intangibles that are really what, um, I saw make the difference when it comes to the happiness and fulfillment of a modern relationship.
[6:11] Angelo Santiago: Yeah, I love that.
[6:12] Angelo Santiago: And I've, I've thought about this and shared about this a lot about this, that way, exactly what you talked about being, yes, it used to be this, this old paradigm of providing, it's like a roof over the head, the.
[6:22] Angelo Santiago: Food on the table, right?
[6:24] Angelo Santiago: The finances are taken care of.
[6:26] Angelo Santiago: And yes, that's still something that anybody wants in any relationship, regardless of who's bringing in, like that's an important, um, aspect of our life that we want to feel safe and comfortable in, but what does it look like to provide your.
[6:39] Angelo Santiago: Your love, your energy, your attention, your respect, like all these things that is, is more than a measurable thing on a paycheck or, you know, your, what you drive in and all those things.
[6:51] Angelo Santiago: And the 1 thing that men run into a lot of challenges that I've seen, and I know I've even experienced this is, is when we were trying to embody this old paradigm of.
[7:01] Angelo Santiago: Protector, provider, procreator, you know, here I am.
[7:05] Angelo Santiago: It's like, okay, I feel like I can protect my family.
[7:07] Angelo Santiago: I provided enough and I've had children, but something's still not working.
[7:12] Angelo Santiago: Like our, my marriage is not going well.
[7:14] Angelo Santiago: I don't feel good.
[7:16] Angelo Santiago: Like it makes me feel like there's nothing else I can do.
[7:19] Angelo Santiago: I feel like I'm not enough.
[7:21] Angelo Santiago: And that's where I think a lot of us get lost.
[7:23] Angelo Santiago: So I want to read a quote from your book and, and just allow you to, Talk about what the refinement of those skills are.
[7:30] Angelo Santiago: So, you write, Men can still be strong in a relationship.
[7:34] Angelo Santiago: You can still inhabit your protector, your provider, your procreator.
[7:39] Angelo Santiago: But let's refine those skills to be applicable to a modern relationship and attractive to the modern woman.
[7:45] Angelo Santiago: So as you go into that, you then start refining what is a strong relationship.
[7:50] Angelo Santiago: And I think that's a beautiful segue into, uh, laid out for us.
[7:54] Angelo Santiago: So you write strong S T R O N G.
[7:57] Angelo Santiago: What do those stand for?
[7:58] Angelo Santiago: And then we'll get into those aspects of a strong relationship.
[8:03] Kristal DeSantis: So when I break it down, and I love that it just worked out that it was the acronym strong, um, because foundationally what women look for in a partner is safety.
[8:15] Kristal DeSantis: All right.
[8:15] Kristal DeSantis: So that's the S of strong is at the foundation of any healthy relationship is we feel safe with each other.
[8:22] Kristal DeSantis: And like in the past, maybe it was that physical safety, right?
[8:25] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, are you big and strong enough to beat up anybody who tries to come and kidnap me?
[8:29] Kristal DeSantis: Great.
[8:30] Kristal DeSantis: I'll pick you.
[8:32] Kristal DeSantis: but now what does it mean to feel safe in a relationship?
[8:35] Kristal DeSantis: And that's where it's more about that emotional safety.
[8:37] Kristal DeSantis: Do you know how to regulate your emotions when you're upset?
[8:40] Kristal DeSantis: Do you know how to help calm my emotions when I'm upset?
[8:43] Kristal DeSantis: Do you know how to hold space for my emotions?
[8:45] Kristal DeSantis: So all of that is still safety.
[8:48] Kristal DeSantis: It just, again, is slightly different than big, strong men, right?
[8:53] Kristal DeSantis: Punch lion.
[8:57] Kristal DeSantis: It's just slightly different, right?
[8:58] Kristal DeSantis: And I break safety down into 4 different components but we can talk about that maybe later.
[9:03] Kristal DeSantis: Um, Because after safety comes trust, right?
[9:07] Kristal DeSantis: So are you a man who is trustworthy?
[9:11] Kristal DeSantis: Cause that is something I see so much in relationships when they come in, in crisis is there's been some kind of betrayal.
[9:17] Kristal DeSantis: Some level of trust has been broken.
[9:20] Kristal DeSantis: I.
[9:20] Kristal DeSantis: You know, you promised me something you didn't follow through.
[9:23] Kristal DeSantis: It makes me worry about if I can see a future with you, if I can't trust you.
[9:27] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and all of that causes so much instability and conflict in a relationship.
[9:31] Kristal DeSantis: So that was something else.
[9:32] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, if you are a safe man, able to provide safety in your relationship.
[9:36] Kristal DeSantis: And if you are a trustworthy man, right?
[9:38] Kristal DeSantis: If, if your word means something, um, that's super important in the relationship.
[9:44] Kristal DeSantis: And then because then after that comes respect, which I heard from a lot of men that, you know, I want to feel respected by my partner.
[9:51] Kristal DeSantis: I want them to look at me and admire me.
[9:53] Kristal DeSantis: I want them to talk well about me to their friends.
[9:55] Kristal DeSantis: I want them to teach our children that I am somebody, you know, when dad says something, it means something, right?
[10:01] Kristal DeSantis: Um, but not really knowing how to get that right.
[10:06] Kristal DeSantis: But you can feel it when respect has eroded in a relationship.
[10:10] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[10:11] Kristal DeSantis: And John Gottman,
[10:12] Angelo Santiago: Definitely.
[10:14] Kristal DeSantis: talks about how contempt is the opposite of respect and contempt is one of those things that it's, you know, what he calls is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse when it comes to a relationship, right?
[10:27] Kristal DeSantis: Um, so the opposite of that, the respect is so important.
[10:31] Kristal DeSantis: And often what I saw is that there were some men in relationships that were trying to demand respect without having the kind of internal gravitas.
[10:41] Kristal DeSantis: To actually command the respect that they were looking for, which then made them feel loved and important and admired.
[10:48] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[10:48] Kristal DeSantis: Um, but again, it all kind of tracks with each other, right?
[10:51] Kristal DeSantis: You can't trust somebody you don't feel safe with.
[10:53] Kristal DeSantis: You can't respect somebody you can't trust.
[10:56] Kristal DeSantis: so that's where I kind of started to build on this model of like, okay, it really starts with safety.
[11:02] Kristal DeSantis: you can trust them.
[11:02] Kristal DeSantis: And then when you can trust them, then you can respect them.
[11:05] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[11:06] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and then, so this kind of STR the first portion of the strong model is really about relationships, survival skills.
[11:13] Kristal DeSantis: Like if you don't have these three elements, your relationship is going to be in constant conflict.
[11:18] Kristal DeSantis: There's going to be contempt.
[11:19] Kristal DeSantis: There's going to be, you know, betrayals.
[11:21] Kristal DeSantis: It's just not going to feel good at all.
[11:23] Kristal DeSantis: Um, but once you get that under your belt, Then we can move on to the ONG part of the rest of the strong lotto, which is really about thriving and taking your relationship, you know, to the next level.
[11:34] Kristal DeSantis: So O is for openness, right?
[11:37] Kristal DeSantis: So a man that can be open about the fact that, you know, maybe he's got strengths, but he's also got areas of challenge, and here's where he's working on growing.
[11:45] Kristal DeSantis: And, you know, the, understanding that we are not static individuals, right?
[11:51] Kristal DeSantis: The more we live life, the more experiences we have, we are going to grow.
[11:56] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and being able to be open about that of, you know, the man that you are when you're 25 is not going to be the man that you are when you're 55, you know, mind, body, and soul.
[12:06] Kristal DeSantis: So being able to be open about the changes that you're experiencing with your partner helps you to grow together and not apart.
[12:13] Kristal DeSantis: Um, then N is nurturing, which again, I think it's this trope, right?
[12:19] Kristal DeSantis: That's like, Oh yeah, no, I gave her the baby, but then the woman nurtures the baby.
[12:23] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[12:23] Kristal DeSantis: That was the old model, right?
[12:24] Kristal DeSantis: I, maybe some of us can think of our grandfathers or even our fathers that like, wouldn't even change a diaper or they didn't know where their baby's like.
[12:31] Kristal DeSantis: How do I keep this thing alive?
[12:32] Kristal DeSantis: Like, mom, help me.
[12:34] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[12:35] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and that's very much changed, right?
[12:37] Kristal DeSantis: The modern father wants to be involved.
[12:40] Kristal DeSantis: Um, you know, there's lots of data to back this up.
[12:43] Kristal DeSantis: And so really just acknowledging that, you know, as a man tapping into your nurturer is such a crucial way of staying present and involved in not only your children's lives, but also recognizing that marriage, which used to be the, you know, um, Well, I do.
[12:59] Kristal DeSantis: I do.
[13:00] Kristal DeSantis: And you know, we're not going to get divorced because you know, the church doesn't allow it or society doesn't allow it.
[13:05] Kristal DeSantis: Or, you know, the wife maybe is like, I can't afford to a life if I get divorced.
[13:10] Kristal DeSantis: So I guess we're stuck.
[13:12] Kristal DeSantis: Um, now it's really about, you know, if you don't nurture your marriage and it dies, it, people will like, it will be done, right?
[13:21] Kristal DeSantis: It's not a given anymore.
[13:23] that your marriage if you don't don't nurture it.
[13:28] Right?
[13:28] And so,
[13:48] Kristal DeSantis: after their children left the house or after a divorce.
[13:52] Kristal DeSantis: Um, because they had just never thought that it was something that had to be nurtured until the circumstances or the environment changed.
[14:01] Kristal DeSantis: And then they realized they didn't have the skills to nurture those relationships.
[14:06] Kristal DeSantis: And then that can be a very hard and sad awakening.
[14:10] Kristal DeSantis: Or reckoning, um, which is part of why I was like, we got to, we got to do it from the beginning, right?
[14:15] Kristal DeSantis: We got to
[14:16] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[14:16] Angelo Santiago: Mm
[14:22] Kristal DeSantis: and, you know, having children, all of that, like, let's put it in from day one.
[14:28] Kristal DeSantis: then the last piece, the G is just generosity, which again, you know, kind of when I was looking at research and things about like what makes a relationship great, right?
[14:38] Kristal DeSantis: What takes it from just, right.
[14:39] Kristal DeSantis: You know, yeah, that looks good on paper to what does it feel like when you're in a healthy, thriving, strong relationship is that last little element of like what I call kind of the fairy dust of the relationship.
[14:51] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, That sense of generosity that your partner didn't have to go out of their way to, you know, grab you that type of coffee you like, but they did, you know, or they didn't have to take the trash cans back in when they got home.
[15:05] Kristal DeSantis: That's kind of your thing.
[15:06] Kristal DeSantis: But they did, know,
[15:09] Angelo Santiago: hmm.
[15:09] Kristal DeSantis: looking for those little ways to make each other's lives just that much better by being together.
[15:15] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[15:16] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and that's that kind of generosity mindset of, I'm not thinking about it in like a tit for tat.
[15:21] Kristal DeSantis: Like, well, what have you done for me lately?
[15:23] Kristal DeSantis: But just, I'm just thinking about ways that can make your life better because I love you and you're my person.
[15:28] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so that the ONG piece is really about taking the relationship for the long haul, um, keeping it alive, keeping it thriving, keeping it vibrant, um, and making sure it thrives.
[15:40] Angelo Santiago: I love that Kristal and I love that you've broken it up into these two aspects because it, you know, whether you're watching or listening to this, uh, show and.
[15:49] Angelo Santiago: Maybe your relationship is in a funk right now.
[15:53] Angelo Santiago: Maybe your marriage is struggling.
[15:55] Angelo Santiago: Maybe you're wondering if this is going to last and you can focus on safety, trust, and respect.
[16:01] Angelo Santiago: Are these things present?
[16:02] Angelo Santiago: Where is your part as, as a part of this relationship to bring more of that in?
[16:09] Angelo Santiago: And what do you need for yourself to feel safe, to feel that you're trusted, right?
[16:13] Angelo Santiago: It's all there.
[16:14] Angelo Santiago: But then if you're listening or watching.
[16:17] Angelo Santiago: And you're like, you know what, there's so much safety and trust and respect.
[16:20] Angelo Santiago: We've done so much work on this, whether it's through couples counseling or whatever it is that you've done, where do we go from here?
[16:28] Angelo Santiago: This is enough.
[16:29] Angelo Santiago: Well, no, there's more, there's more layers.
[16:31] Angelo Santiago: You can take your marriage from good to great, from great to incredible, from incredible to miraculous, wherever you want to go, there's always room for more.
[16:40] Angelo Santiago: And I think that's important for us to remember to not settle in the Just like in a level of acceptability, right?
[16:47] Angelo Santiago: I don't know if that's a word acceptance of just, uh, the status quo.
[16:51] Angelo Santiago: Like let's show others what it's like to have an incredible relationship.
[16:56] Angelo Santiago: And I want to highlight something.
[16:58] Angelo Santiago: You said that you said we are not static individuals.
[17:02] Angelo Santiago: And that's something that the first episode of Better Husband is all about.
[17:06] Angelo Santiago: That like change is.
[17:07] Angelo Santiago: Is almost a requirement in long term relationship in long term marriage, either you're going to change or your partner is going to change something in the dynamic is going to change.
[17:18] Angelo Santiago: Children are going to come in.
[17:19] Angelo Santiago: Maybe there's going to be a job loss.
[17:20] Angelo Santiago: Maybe like you have to be adaptable and be willing to it.
[17:24] Angelo Santiago: to move and flow and grow as a team, as a couple.
[17:29] Angelo Santiago: Um, and so sometimes as men, we get, you know, it's like, no, no, this is the way I am.
[17:34] Angelo Santiago: It's like, no, you have to be able to soften a little bit and be able to, to explore these things as you develop and as you change.
[17:42] Angelo Santiago: And so that was a huge understanding for me in my marriage.
[17:47] Angelo Santiago: Um, And I don't know if you've seen in your research that sometimes is that a challenging thing for men to accept?
[17:54] Angelo Santiago: Like, you know, it's like, well, this is just the way I am versus, you know, Oh, I understand now that like, for this to work, there has to be a little more.
[18:03] Kristal DeSantis: Absolutely.
[18:04] Kristal DeSantis: And I think it does go back to, you know, when things are predictable, they can feel safe, right?
[18:11] Kristal DeSantis: And that ultimately part of what our brains are really good at is finding patterns so that we can feel safe in our environments, right?
[18:19] Kristal DeSantis: It's like when you walk into your home and everything's where you put it and everything is like, Yeah, it feels good.
[18:25] Kristal DeSantis: I come home and it's a little bit chaotic.
[18:27] Kristal DeSantis: Your brain is a little like, Oh, God, here we go again.
[18:29] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[18:30] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so that's just part of the way our brains work is it links kind of familiarity and patterns with a sense of safety and a sense of, you know, chaos and unfamiliar unknown with a little bit of a sense of fear, right?
[18:44] Kristal DeSantis: I mean, it's kind of classic fear of the unknown.
[18:46] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[18:46] Kristal DeSantis: So I think that's a very human thing.
[18:49] Kristal DeSantis: And it's also again, recognizing that for a lot of time, a lot of history, men were supposed to be in charge of maintaining the safety of the environment, right?
[18:58] Kristal DeSantis: If a lion came in and ate your family, well, whose fault is it?
[19:01] Kristal DeSantis: Who wasn't being a good protector here?
[19:03] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[19:04] Kristal DeSantis: And so that's sometimes what I see is like with men, it's the idea that if I can control my environment, then I can control what happens.
[19:13] Kristal DeSantis: Then maybe I can be safe.
[19:14] Kristal DeSantis: Maybe I can keep my family safe if I control what happens.
[19:19] Kristal DeSantis: Um, which I always want to highlight kind of the fragility of that perspective because nature is not on your side.
[19:27] Kristal DeSantis: You know, life and nature
[19:30] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[19:30] Kristal DeSantis: about movement and growth.
[19:32] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[19:32] Kristal DeSantis: And like you said, I mean, no matter how much you say, I'm not changing.
[19:36] Kristal DeSantis: I've liked the same, you know, peanut butter sandwich every day since I was five.
[19:39] Kristal DeSantis: And I've, you know, waking up and done the same routine every day.
[19:42] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, yes, but life has changed around you, right?
[19:46] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[19:46] Kristal DeSantis: so again, recognizing you can grow your resilience, you can grow your skills so that you can learn to be adaptable rather than seeing any change as a threat to your capability, to your competence, to your ability to keep environment safe and stable.
[20:07] Kristal DeSantis: that make sense?
[20:08] Kristal DeSantis: Like
[20:08] Angelo Santiago: Yeah, absolutely.
[20:10] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[20:52] Angelo Santiago: So I want to get into the nurturing, the relationship, which you talked about as one of your favorite, um, chapters in the book, I, there was a lot of really great information in there that I found that I would.
[21:04] Angelo Santiago: Uh, definitely want to focus in on before we get to that one.
[21:07] Angelo Santiago: I want to give those, uh, the audience here, something to, to walk away with as like something you can start doing today and that for me, I found in your book that, I mean, there's several, but the one that I want to Is this idea of the golden rule versus the platinum rule.
[21:22] Angelo Santiago: So the golden rule, uh, is something that many of us have, have heard.
[21:26] Angelo Santiago: It's it's commonly stated is treat others the way you want to be treated.
[21:31] Angelo Santiago: And I hadn't heard of platinum rule before, but I love it.
[21:34] Angelo Santiago: You write it, treat others the way that they want to be treated.
[21:38] Angelo Santiago: And this is so important in a relationship because.
[21:44] Angelo Santiago: We do have different wants.
[21:46] Angelo Santiago: We do have different desires.
[21:47] Angelo Santiago: We do have different thresholds of like, this is what it looks like for me to feel loved.
[21:53] Angelo Santiago: Um, and so I want to give you the floor a little bit to,
[21:56] Kristal DeSantis: have
[21:58] Angelo Santiago: of what that could look like for somebody who's listening.
[22:00] Angelo Santiago: That's like, but wait a second, I'm doing my best and it doesn't feel like enough.
[22:04] Angelo Santiago: It's like, well, are you giving them what they are asking for?
[22:07] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[22:13] Kristal DeSantis: things that I see that works against couples is what I call the assumption of similarity trap, right?
[22:20] Kristal DeSantis: The idea that soulmates are supposed to be the same, right?
[22:24] Kristal DeSantis: It's like, Oh, you complete me like now we are finally like, Oh, whole.
[22:30] Kristal DeSantis: but by by highlighting the golden rule, which is truth.
[22:33] Kristal DeSantis: You know, your partner, the way you would want to be treated.
[22:35] Kristal DeSantis: So all of that is just like remembering that your partner is a different person than you.
[22:40] Kristal DeSantis: And so their likes, their dislikes, their preferences, their love language is not going to be your default and the more you can highlight that, the more you can be curious about, wait a minute, I would get this for me.
[22:52] Kristal DeSantis: But if I'm getting it for them, maybe they want something different.
[22:55] Kristal DeSantis: It's just going to continue to keep that perspective in mind that they are not me.
[23:01] Kristal DeSantis: do they need?
[23:02] Kristal DeSantis: That might be different from what I need and how can I be okay with that?
[23:06] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[23:06] Kristal DeSantis: Cause I often see that people sometimes get offended or shocked Even if they've been together a long time.
[23:13] Angelo Santiago: Yeah, and I don't know if this falls in the right place in your strong relationship acronym, but it's like this.
[23:19] Angelo Santiago: That's what generosity looks like.
[23:20] Angelo Santiago: It's like giving a little bit of myself in order to give.
[23:24] Angelo Santiago: To my partner, because I know, and I'll use my relationship.
[23:28] Angelo Santiago: I know that for my wife, like this is what she loves.
[23:31] Angelo Santiago: Like, yeah, I may love going hiking and being physical and doing all this stuff.
[23:35] Angelo Santiago: But like for her, a great time together is like sitting together and talking and connecting and sharing our, you know, experiences of whatever is this going on.
[23:43] Angelo Santiago: It's very different.
[23:45] Angelo Santiago: And as you know, even though I want to take her on a date and do all these exciting adventure things, what she is willing to do because she's being generous to me, can I also be generous to her?
[23:55] Angelo Santiago: so I want to give it, you know, for the guys out there, uh, something that, that I've learned in, in my training, that I work with couples as well.
[24:03] Angelo Santiago: It's like when your partner is.
[24:10] Angelo Santiago: Uh, they're basically telling you exactly.
[24:12] Angelo Santiago: It is the thing that you can give them.
[24:15] Angelo Santiago: to make the situation better.
[24:17] Angelo Santiago: And so, yes, it's hard to receive a complaint.
[24:19] Angelo Santiago: Sometimes the walls go up and sometimes you feel like you're being put down or insulted.
[24:24] Angelo Santiago: And yes, there's a conversation to be had about like complaining is not the best way to get what you want, but, is coming in, can you listen to what's under the complaint?
[24:33] Angelo Santiago: What is it that's really being desired?
[24:35] Angelo Santiago: And that's what allows you to give your partner they want and to treat them in the way that they want to be treated.
[24:42] Kristal DeSantis: And that's absolutely, um, the first thing I guess that I would say is just be curious, Because it's so instinctual, right?
[24:50] Kristal DeSantis: If we're hearing a criticism, we get defensive, and then we want to explain why that's not a rational thought, right?
[24:56] Kristal DeSantis: Um, but instead get curious, like, if I don't understand why my partner's upset by the thing that I thought was a good idea, then I need to get curious because clearly I went off of what my default was, which didn't land for them.
[25:11] Kristal DeSantis: So how can I get more curious?
[25:13] Kristal DeSantis: Like, tell me why didn't land for you, because I would like to try something different next time.
[25:20] Angelo Santiago: Absolutely.
[25:21] Angelo Santiago: All right.
[25:22] Angelo Santiago: So there's something you can walk away with today.
[25:25] Angelo Santiago: If nothing else, treat the others the way they want to be treated.
[25:29] Angelo Santiago: Start making a list.
[25:30] Angelo Santiago: What is it?
[25:30] Angelo Santiago: The request that your partner has made from you?
[25:33] Angelo Santiago: Your spouse has made from you.
[25:34] Angelo Santiago: And can you start with the list?
[25:37] Angelo Santiago: Um, and being generous and being more nurturing for the relationship by doing those things.
[25:45] Angelo Santiago: three P's of nurturing a relationship.
[25:48] Angelo Santiago: So I'm going to lay them out and then I'm going to read a portion that you wrote in the book.
[25:52] Angelo Santiago: And then I'm going to ask you, you know, tell us what these three P's look like in action.
[26:00] Angelo Santiago: So somebody can actually think about, okay, I see how I can do that.
[26:03] Angelo Santiago: So the three P's of nurturing relationship, according to your book is pride, pain and pleasure.
[26:10] Angelo Santiago: And you write in an unhealthy relationship, there's an absence of pride.
[26:15] Angelo Santiago: An abundance of pain and a lack of pleasure in a healthy relationship.
[26:20] Angelo Santiago: All these things are not only present but acknowledged and used as touch points to nurture the emotional connection of the relationship.
[26:29] Angelo Santiago: So tell us a little bit more about those three peas, what you found and what those look like in action,
[26:34] Kristal DeSantis: absolutely.
[26:35] Kristal DeSantis: I actually like to talk about it as like the heartbeat.
[26:39] Kristal DeSantis: Of a relationship.
[26:40] Kristal DeSantis: So I'm like, if you feel like your relationship has flatlined in a way, like maybe you notice you keep talking about like the kids or what you're supposed to do this weekend, or you have these like logistical conversations, but you're not really connecting.
[26:53] Kristal DeSantis: This is a way to kind of bring that little heartbeat of the emotional connection back.
[26:58] Kristal DeSantis: and it's very simple.
[26:59] Kristal DeSantis: You know, what I say is like, you know, at the end of the day or sometime where it's just the two of you sit down and ask each other.
[27:06] Kristal DeSantis: these three points.
[27:06] Kristal DeSantis: So the high point, right?
[27:08] Kristal DeSantis: Ask each other about a point of pride because that also gives you the opportunity to not only learn something about them that they might be proud of, but also gives you a chance to validate them.
[27:21] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[27:21] Kristal DeSantis: So again, especially with couples that are busy, too busy jobs, busy with the kids, that conversation, hey, what have you done recently that you were really proud of?
[27:31] Kristal DeSantis: And maybe it's something that you didn't expect, right?
[27:33] Kristal DeSantis: So maybe in your mind, you're like, didn't she just get that promotion?
[27:37] Kristal DeSantis: But maybe what she's proud of is I went to the gym three times this week.
[27:41] Kristal DeSantis: And it's like, oh, wow, good job, babe.
[27:43] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah, I know that's really important for you.
[27:45] Kristal DeSantis: Your health is, you know, you've been working on it.
[27:47] Kristal DeSantis: High five, right?
[27:48] Kristal DeSantis: And so that's a point of pride that you can share with each other.
[27:52] Kristal DeSantis: then a point of pain because one of the things like I name in the in the book is sometimes in an unhealthy relationship, there's a lot of pain just floating around.
[28:02] Kristal DeSantis: But it's not used as a point of connection where people can actually provide care for each other.
[28:07] Kristal DeSantis: So it's just these two people kind of in their silos in pain on their own, not being able to connect and receive or give care.
[28:15] Kristal DeSantis: So checking in about pain is, you know, maybe the downbeat of the heart, the heartbeat.
[28:21] Kristal DeSantis: Um, Yeah.
[28:22] Kristal DeSantis: But being able to be brave enough to say, and is there something that has caused you pain this week or today and being open for whatever comes?
[28:31] Kristal DeSantis: So whether it's, you know, I just had this wicked headache all day or, you know, so physical pain, and then it might be, well, what can I do?
[28:38] Kristal DeSantis: Do you want to lay down?
[28:39] Kristal DeSantis: Can I get you a glass of water?
[28:41] Kristal DeSantis: I'll do the bath with the kids.
[28:43] Kristal DeSantis: Or if it's emotional pain, like I've been really hurt that, you know, what you said last night is still just sitting with me and I'm, you know, um, I would still like us to, to process that.
[28:54] Kristal DeSantis: And so that again might be a conversation of, okay, well, what can I do to help?
[28:58] Kristal DeSantis: Like, how can I, you know, do I need to apologize for that?
[29:02] Kristal DeSantis: Do we need to process, do we need a whole conversation about that specifically?
[29:06] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and just acknowledge that pain can be a very important part of the bonding of a relationship, because like you said, it gives you that information of what's not working and what can we do better.
[29:19] Kristal DeSantis: And it also gives you insight into
[29:21] Angelo Santiago: Silence.
[29:36] Kristal DeSantis: lot of couples, you know, especially after kids or, you know, busy lives, they, they struggle to connect.
[29:42] Kristal DeSantis: And so often what I see is couples don't really have a template for having conversations about pleasure.
[29:48] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[29:49] Kristal DeSantis: It's like when you get together, it's hot and heavy, no words needed, like And then it starts to maybe get more challenging or there are more obstacles and there's no, they don't know how to talk about that.
[30:02] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[30:03] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so part of the pleasure conversation is normalizing, like, okay, we checked in about pride.
[30:09] Kristal DeSantis: We checked in about pain.
[30:10] Kristal DeSantis: Let's check in about pleasure and starting to normalize it.
[30:14] Kristal DeSantis: Also pleasure can come in a lot of different forms, right?
[30:18] Kristal DeSantis: Right.
[30:19] Kristal DeSantis: you know, something give you pleasure today?
[30:21] Kristal DeSantis: And it might be, yeah, they, you know, pumpkin spice lattes are back, you know, it's like just a tiny little moment of pleasure that can also be playful,
[30:31] Angelo Santiago: Okay.
[30:47] Kristal DeSantis: gives my partner pleasure, I can file that away so that I can bring it back and make sure that I'm helping maximize pleasure then also.
[30:56] Kristal DeSantis: If you know, she tells me or I hear that like, no, I haven't had any pleasure today.
[31:01] Kristal DeSantis: Today was just a big gray blob.
[31:02] Kristal DeSantis: Everything felt hard nothing.
[31:05] Kristal DeSantis: That also is then the opportunity for you to say, is there anything I can do right now to give you some pleasure?
[31:10] Kristal DeSantis: Let's go for a walk around the block.
[31:12] Kristal DeSantis: Or I know you love watching the sunset.
[31:13] Kristal DeSantis: Let's go sit outside.
[31:14] Kristal DeSantis: Or, you know, I, let me run out and get you a pumpkin spice latte.
[31:19] Kristal DeSantis: I know from our last conversation.
[31:20] Kristal DeSantis: You really like that.
[31:21] Kristal DeSantis: Would that help right now?
[31:22] Kristal DeSantis: Right?
[31:23] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so again, just kind of making you then a little bit of an arbiter of pleasure in the relationship and then also normalizing those kinds of conversations because then later on, if you do want to talk about sexual pleasure and the, you know, what you can do to increase it again, you can match it with that same energy where it's not Bye.
[31:42] Kristal DeSantis: You know, it's not maybe feeling like it's a personal attack.
[31:45] Kristal DeSantis: It's simply information.
[31:46] Kristal DeSantis: I'm hearing about my partner's experience of pleasure.
[31:50] Kristal DeSantis: Um, or if it wasn't that pleasurable, maybe then we can be curious about what can I do to make it more pleasurable for you next time?
[31:58] Kristal DeSantis: So anyway,
[32:00] Angelo Santiago: I love, I love that framework.
[32:02] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[32:02] Kristal DeSantis: Mm
[32:04] Angelo Santiago: framework cause yeah, it is, there's, there's a depth to it.
[32:07] Angelo Santiago: Right.
[32:07] Angelo Santiago: The explanation is, is important because it's something that you could start applying tonight at the dinner table or before bed.
[32:16] Angelo Santiago: Um, then it's, it's important conversations to have, especially like you said, that we don't always.
[32:22] Angelo Santiago: Feel comfortable talking about the painful parts of our day, right?
[32:26] Angelo Santiago: Maybe some relationships do, but not all do.
[32:28] Angelo Santiago: And we also sometimes don't feel comfortable about asking for something for pleasure, like whether it is, you know, sexual or emotional or, you know, even something just like some nice food or a treat or a gift.
[32:42] Angelo Santiago: Um, or even a conversation that needs to be had.
[32:44] Angelo Santiago: I think it's important to start creating this framework of doing these things when it feels easy so that when things get hard, it's like it's already well established.
[32:56] Angelo Santiago: You're creating the foundation that your entire marriage is built upon.
[33:00] Angelo Santiago: So men, if you're, you know, listening and watching this, Like start taking some notes and, and be the strong one.
[33:07] Angelo Santiago: Be the courageous one to start bringing this into your marriage.
[33:11] Angelo Santiago: Don't wait for your partner to ask for it, right?
[33:15] Angelo Santiago: Like that's the, what you get to provide in your marriage.
[33:20] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[33:20] Kristal DeSantis: Also, I do want to say that the pride one is actually really important because what I've noticed is a lot of men, you know, maybe we're raised with the message that like being prideful or being braggy is an unattractive trait.
[33:33] Kristal DeSantis: And so I hear, and this is dichotomy, right?
[33:36] Kristal DeSantis: It was like a man wants to be admired and respected, but then Sometimes when I, you know, I ask couples to do this exercise, the guy will be like, yeah, I don't think of anything I'm proud of.
[33:46] Kristal DeSantis: Or like, and the wife might be like, you just got that big old thing.
[33:49] Kristal DeSantis: Or you just did that thing.
[33:50] Kristal DeSantis: He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[33:51] Kristal DeSantis: Kind of dismiss, dismiss.
[33:53] Kristal DeSantis: But then again, it's like working against your own needs.
[33:56] Kristal DeSantis: And so that also is an opportunity for a man to really claim, like, I am proud of myself.
[34:02] Kristal DeSantis: I am proud that I did that.
[34:04] Kristal DeSantis: And then to have the experience of a wife validating and being like, babe, you are awesome.
[34:09] Kristal DeSantis: You are so, you know, I look up to you and I see you and I just I'm like, that's my man and I'm proud of him.
[34:15] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and that's a really powerful experience again when it comes to building that respect, um, in a couple and for a man to really believe that he is admired by his partner, which then links to desire as well, right?
[34:28] Kristal DeSantis: I know she likes
[34:29] Angelo Santiago: Absolutely.
[34:30] Kristal DeSantis: and she desires me.
[34:32] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[34:32] Angelo Santiago: And I see a lot of men who want to embody that humility, that humbleness, which is, yes, it's, you know, you don't want to be out there to the point of being like, I'm the greatest at absolutely everything and better than, than others.
[34:44] Angelo Santiago: But it's like, can you allow yourself To one be celebrated by others when there's something worthy of celebrating and for you to celebrate yourself.
[34:52] Angelo Santiago: I mean, I love it when I have had a great day and I feel like I just, like, I really nailed it at being a dad and I was a really loving partner and I took care of the house.
[35:01] Angelo Santiago: And at the end of the day, just like, take a moment, be like, man, you know, four years ago, this was not the case.
[35:08] Angelo Santiago: And today, like I I'm proud that this is the man that I'm showing up as in my life, like, this is what I want to be able.
[35:16] Angelo Santiago: To give to others, not only in my family, my community.
[35:19] Angelo Santiago: And it's okay to take that moment of celebration and appreciation for yourself.
[35:23] Angelo Santiago: So, so guys remember to celebrate yourself.
[35:26] Angelo Santiago: Absolutely.
[35:27] Angelo Santiago: So Kristal, I want to close off with, again, I've, I've read a lot of portions of your book in this, in this interview or in this conversation, because I've liked it so much, I want to close off with.
[35:37] Angelo Santiago: One last passage that you wrote that I really enjoyed.
[35:41] Angelo Santiago: Um, I want to let the, everybody who's listening or watching to know that in the show notes, you can find a link to get strong, um, Kristals book.
[35:51] Angelo Santiago: And also I want to give you the opportunity for any closing remarks.
[35:55] Angelo Santiago: You have anything that, you know, people can find you and where they can contact you if they have more questions.
[36:00] Angelo Santiago: And then we were going to close off with a little bit of a scenario that somebody has written about in their marriage.
[36:06] Angelo Santiago: And I wanted to get your take on it.
[36:08] Angelo Santiago: What advice you'd give that person.
[36:10] Angelo Santiago: So first the passage from your book in equal relationship, there's no room for a passive partner.
[36:17] Angelo Santiago: A strong relationship is a mutual venture and equal relationship needs both partners to be equally invested in the nurturing and cultivation of a thriving partnership.
[36:28] Angelo Santiago: You can't row a boat with one boat.
[36:31] Angelo Santiago: Or so I love this passage because it's a reminder that we have our part to play in all aspects of the relationship.
[36:38] Angelo Santiago: So even if you're great at one thing, like, can you step more into the thing that's a little bit uncomfortable?
[36:43] Angelo Santiago: So you're not that passive partner in the nurturing, right?
[36:47] Angelo Santiago: Or in the generosity or in the openness, like, can you bring yourself to all of it and invite your partner as well into all aspects of the relationship too.
[36:57] Angelo Santiago: So with that, um, Kristal, anything you came onto this conversation that you're like, you know, I really wanted people to hear this or anything that we touched on, but you wanted to expand on a little bit before we go into the scenario and close out,
[37:11] Kristal DeSantis: Um, you know, just speaking to men, I just want to acknowledge that, you know, it can feel really daunting right now, right?
[37:17] Kristal DeSantis: That the rules have changed.
[37:19] Kristal DeSantis: The rules have changed.
[37:20] Kristal DeSantis: Um, it can feel sometimes kind of hopeless.
[37:22] Kristal DeSantis: And so I always want to end on, you know, there is hope.
[37:26] Kristal DeSantis: The world has changed.
[37:27] Kristal DeSantis: Yes, but there are lots of resources that.
[37:30] Kristal DeSantis: Can help you find your place in it that can help you feel empowered, um, in your new role, whatever you choose to, however you choose to show up, um, just making sure that it's, it's authentically yours, um, but there's hope
[37:43] Angelo Santiago: And so let's go into this.
[37:44] Angelo Santiago: This is, um, something that's been written about, uh, this man's marriage and I want to get your take on it, see what you get out of it, what recommendations or guidance you'd make, what questions you'd want to ask this person.
[37:55] Angelo Santiago: And if you're listening to this scenario and you can relate to some aspects of it, pay attention because there might be something here for you.
[38:03] Angelo Santiago: So here we go.
[38:05] Angelo Santiago: My wife and I have been happily married for just over 10 years, both late thirties, some bumps along the way, but we're doing great generally.
[38:13] Angelo Santiago: We're best friends and in it for the long haul.
[38:15] Angelo Santiago: A few months ago, my wife completely lost interest in any kind of sexual or physical intimacy.
[38:20] Angelo Santiago: I'm going to try and give some context, and know she's not cheating, and I'm hoping you can help me understand, or sorry, you can hope you can help me be a better husband by navigating this in a way that supports my wife.
[38:31] Angelo Santiago: I think I maybe just not understand women as well as I thought.
[38:35] Angelo Santiago: But here goes.
[38:36] Angelo Santiago: For a good chunk of our marriage, the main issue we had was that I was pretty bad at showing affection.
[38:41] Angelo Santiago: I've always loved my wife and been incredibly attracted to her.
[38:44] Angelo Santiago: But for my own reasons and issues, I've generally been bad about showing it.
[38:47] Angelo Santiago: Meaning bad about initiating anything from hugs to sex.
[38:51] Angelo Santiago: I knew this was really taking a toll on my wife, how could it not, so I started therapy.
[38:56] Angelo Santiago: Pretty soon after that, things changed, I figured out how to be less guarded with her and show her more affection, actually a lot more, like emotionally, physically, sexually.
[39:06] Angelo Santiago: I want everything with her and don't want to hold much back.
[39:09] Angelo Santiago: Don't get the wrong impression, I'm not creepy and not overbearing, just a lot of intense feelings and desires on my side.
[39:15] Angelo Santiago: Almost overnight, when I brought out this newly rediscovered me, she shut down sexually and physically.
[39:21] Angelo Santiago: I'd initiate sex and she'd decline.
[39:24] Angelo Santiago: we're to the point where even some of our cuddling rituals have gone away.
[39:27] Angelo Santiago: If I didn't know better, I'd almost say, like, it's a turn off for her.
[39:32] Angelo Santiago: We've talked about all this quite a bit, which is good, but I can tell we're not really getting anywhere.
[39:37] Kristal DeSantis: I,
[39:38] Angelo Santiago: she says all of this change is just a lot to process, that some of it is hard because it shines a light on how much she was missing out on, and that because of all that, she really isn't feeling any sexual or physical intimacy desires anymore.
[39:51] Angelo Santiago: Or at least not now.
[39:53] Angelo Santiago: I understand and respect all of that, of course.
[39:55] Angelo Santiago: Still, I'm not going to lie, it's been hard.
[39:57] Angelo Santiago: I went to therapy to address this issue, and now things are actually sort of worse than they were before.
[40:04] Angelo Santiago: I don't want to pressure her, obviously, but I also don't want to get permanently caught in the roommate trap.
[40:09] Angelo Santiago: And yes, couples therapy is obviously the right answer here, but I can tell now isn't the right time for her.
[40:14] Angelo Santiago: Okay, so the extent of the actual questions, I guess they would be, does sex drive intimacy for women just turn off like that overnight?
[40:21] Angelo Santiago: Part of what I'm struggling with is trying to figure out if I did something specific that turned her off, if it really is just the change in my affection level, or if something else is going on.
[40:31] Angelo Santiago: We went from being really frisky to literally nothing in the course of like a week.
[40:35] Kristal DeSantis: Be good,
[40:37] Angelo Santiago: it's what I that I changed, any thoughts on how We get back to a better place.
[40:42] Angelo Santiago: I don't want to go back to being more distance, but sometimes I wonder if we were better when she was the chaser in our relationship,
[40:50] Kristal DeSantis: Okay, I just want to acknowledge that this is a very common thing that I see in relationships, right?
[40:58] Kristal DeSantis: Is when one person goes to therapy and they start working on themselves, they are tracking their own changes, whereas the partner not be aware yet.
[41:09] Kristal DeSantis: Of what's happening below the surface until tada, the big reveal, And so that's often kind of that discrepancy is he's like, I've been working on this for a year.
[41:20] Kristal DeSantis: I'm ready to go, but she's hearing about it for the first time.
[41:24] Kristal DeSantis: So right now I'm hearing, she's kind of still in the taken aback phase of like, wait, my husband has just changed overnight.
[41:33] Kristal DeSantis: what, what does that mean for me?
[41:35] Kristal DeSantis: And so I'm hearing that she's still processing of like how.
[41:39] Kristal DeSantis: This information, how she responds to this information, right?
[41:43] Kristal DeSantis: Like, because at the end of the day, the dynamic is going to change, right?
[41:48] Kristal DeSantis: He has changed his part.
[41:50] Kristal DeSantis: And now what I'm hearing is she's kind of reflecting on what does that mean for me?
[41:54] Kristal DeSantis: And how do I then have to change my side to respond to this new version of my husband that seemingly just appeared overnight?
[42:03] Kristal DeSantis: and I've had this happen with couples specifically when it comes to sex, but specifically when it comes to intimacy.
[42:09] Kristal DeSantis: Um, I actually had a similar situation the other way, where the guy was like, it was like a switch flipped, and overnight she was like, okay, I get it.
[42:19] Kristal DeSantis: Let's have sex now.
[42:20] Kristal DeSantis: then he had to kind of come to grips with, if it was that easy, why didn't you do it earlier?
[42:25] Kristal DeSantis: And now I'm going through the stages of grief, of like, you couldn't just on then, when I've been begging for years?
[42:34] Kristal DeSantis: now I'm kind of mad,
[42:36] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[42:37] Kristal DeSantis: so, this is part of the challenge of growth in couples is that sometimes it happens, um, asynchronously, right?
[42:44] Kristal DeSantis: In a perfect world, we'd all grow together at the same time.
[42:48] Kristal DeSantis: And, you know, um, but so often, especially when couples don't have that kind of, um, like built in stages of growth from the beginning is that it does, it is kind of choppy.
[43:02] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so I guess what I would say to this man is.
[43:05] Kristal DeSantis: Stick it out.
[43:06] Kristal DeSantis: Like this is part of, um, also the generosity of a healthy relationship is you've done all this.
[43:13] Kristal DeSantis: Oh, you know, but she's hearing it for the first time.
[43:17] Kristal DeSantis: And I've seen
[43:18] Angelo Santiago: Yeah.
[43:18] Angelo Santiago: Sorry.
[43:19] Kristal DeSantis: comes to affairs and betrayals somebody's like, gosh, I've been sitting with this.
[43:23] Kristal DeSantis: I've been going to therapy about my guilt and my shame.
[43:26] Kristal DeSantis: And it's been, you know, three years and I'm finally ready to reveal to my partner and I'm, I've done all my work and I'm ready to work on us.
[43:33] Kristal DeSantis: And then they're surprised when their partner is like, Oh my God, I'm going to divorce you.
[43:38] Kristal DeSantis: And they're like, wait, but no, I did all my work.
[43:40] Kristal DeSantis: And it's like, well, they're hearing about it for the first time.
[43:43] Kristal DeSantis: So their process is just starting.
[43:46] Kristal DeSantis: Whereas yours might be at this completely different level of acceptance or ending or future focus.
[43:53] Kristal DeSantis: You got to wait for their process to catch up.
[43:56] Kristal DeSantis: All right.
[43:56] Kristal DeSantis: Um, and so, that's what's coming up for me when I hear this is I'm really glad
[44:01] Angelo Santiago: Okay.
[44:16] Kristal DeSantis: know, the fear that this is going to last forever.
[44:18] Kristal DeSantis: I hear that, but that's also where maybe she needs a little bit of individual therapy first before then couples therapy to then help reassure you that, um, you know, there is a path forward.
[44:30] Angelo Santiago: I love that.
[44:31] Angelo Santiago: Give her some grace.
[44:32] Angelo Santiago: Um, yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is, is patient and trusting that, you know, you're doing the right things as long as, you know, we're only getting one side of the story, obviously, but from this side of the story, it's like, it feels like your heart is in the right place.
[44:46] Angelo Santiago: You want what's best for the relationship you, like you said, you want to do what's best for your wife and.
[44:51] Angelo Santiago: Um, yeah, just be patient and something you said earlier in our conversation, Kristal is like, get curious, right?
[44:57] Angelo Santiago: Instead of coming to your conclusions, just allow it to to play out.
[45:01] Angelo Santiago: And another thing that I'll finish up with and is, you know, in in relational light therapy, which is one of the practices that I study, there's this idea of, Reception and transmission work.
[45:13] Angelo Santiago: And the founder of RLT would say, right, here's one partner that's asking for something and asking for something and asking for something over and over when partner B finally gives them that thing, you know, he says, do you think that partner a, all of a sudden his head over heels and it is just everything is gray.
[45:29] Angelo Santiago: It's like, no, they struggle to actually receive the thing that they've never gotten.
[45:33] Angelo Santiago: And so, like you said, like it takes a little bit of work on both sides for it to come to that point of.
[45:40] Angelo Santiago: Finding where the pieces fit and where you, as a partnership of the, you complete me, like you said, actually mesh and combine because it is, it's, it takes a little wiggling back and forth to get the pieces to fit.
[45:53] Kristal DeSantis: Yeah.
[45:54] Angelo Santiago: so Kristal.
[45:55] Angelo Santiago: Thank you so much for being here on the show.
[45:58] Angelo Santiago: It's been amazing.
[45:59] Angelo Santiago: I look forward to future conversations with you.
[46:03] Angelo Santiago: check out Kristal's book strong, a relationship field guide for the modern man.
[46:08] Angelo Santiago: The link is in the show notes.
[46:10] Angelo Santiago: I highly recommend it.
[46:12] Kristal DeSantis: I'm
[46:12] Angelo Santiago: joining us on better husband.
[46:14] Angelo Santiago: If you feel like you got any value from this episode, make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button.
[46:19] Angelo Santiago: If you have any questions, comments, or a situation in your marriage that you want for me to cover on the show, you can text me or email me using the links in the show notes.
[46:28] Angelo Santiago: I'm here every week to help you become a better husband.
[46:31] Angelo Santiago: I'm Angelo Santiago.
[46:33] Angelo Santiago: Thank you for being part of this community and I'll see you on the next one.

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