# Best Interests | EP 10 | Season 3

An episode of [Burden of Guilt](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1711277020), 30 Sep 2026, 37 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/ec39cd51-11c3-432e-aa44-b08500fd66ca/1534f9bf-2b05-44b1-b471-b4c8015a0402/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=240645c5-ee68-49b9-8b4e-b08501009bb0

Ever since Cindy lost parenting time with her children, she’s encountered multiple hurdles to get her kids back. In the final episode of Season 3, Cindy grapples with the realization she may never again have a normal relationship with her children. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at Burdenofguiltpod@gmail.com. For more Burden of Guilt, follow us on Instagram @glasspodcasts. Learn more about Ginger Gentile at ReversingParentalAlienation.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:03] Speaker 1: I want to take you back to something you heard
[0:05] Speaker 1: at the beginning of this season. It's a news story
[0:08] Speaker 1: about Cindy and Kenny.
[0:11] Speaker 2: We begin here on 930 with the jury awarding more
[0:13] Speaker 2: than $ 21 million to a couple in Steamboat Springs after
[0:17] Speaker 2: it found the woman's ex-husband pushed false allegations of child
[0:21] Speaker 2: sex abuse.
[0:22] Speaker 1: Back in 2024, a Denver TV news station interviewed Cindy
[0:27] Speaker 1: and Kenny.
[0:29] Speaker 3: I've been saying it for years. It's never happened. And
[0:31] Speaker 3: I just couldn't get anybody to listen. I felt like vindicated.
[0:40] Speaker 1: For them, it's been about clearing their names and something else.
[0:45] Speaker 3: And I hope to one day see my children and
[0:48] Speaker 3: tell them what happened. And I hope they don't feel
[0:51] Speaker 3: in any way that they're responsible for this.
[0:54] Speaker 1: They want the children to know the truth.
[0:58] Speaker 4: This story is about giving these children a chance in
[1:01] Speaker 4: life to know the truth so they can make their
[1:03] Speaker 4: own decisions in the future when they're ready.
[1:05] Speaker 3: I'm going to put my family back together. It's hard,
[1:09] Speaker 3: but I'm going to do it.
[1:11] Speaker 1: Even with the truth on her side, Cindy faced her
[1:14] Speaker 1: hardest battle yet, piecing together her broken family. Music I'm
[1:28] Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, and this is Season 3 of Burden of Guilt,
[1:32] Speaker 1: Episode 10, Best Interests. Back in 2024, journalist Rob Lowe
[1:42] Speaker 1: worked for KDVR-TV in Denver. He hosted a weekly segment
[1:47] Speaker 1: on the nightly news called Problem Solvers.
[1:50] Speaker 5: Basically, I was an investigative reporter who really had free
[1:53] Speaker 5: reign to kind of do longer format, in-depth pieces that
[1:56] Speaker 5: I thought were of interest.
[1:59] Speaker 1: One of his segments featured Cindy and Kenny.
[2:02] Speaker 5: I picked up on the story after a Steamboat Springs
[2:04] Speaker 5: jury awarded them $ 21 million basically for defamation. That to
[2:09] Speaker 5: me was the type of verdict where a jury's clearly
[2:12] Speaker 5: trying to send a message of how egregious they thought
[2:15] Speaker 5: the biological father had acted and how so many in
[2:18] Speaker 5: the system had got things wrong. I just can't imagine
[2:21] Speaker 5: anything worse than a father trying to convince his kids
[2:24] Speaker 5: they've been sexually abused if they haven't. Like, who does that?
[2:28] Speaker 5: That is so messed up.
[2:31] Speaker 1: Even with Steve on the hook for more than $ 20 million,
[2:34] Speaker 1: Rob reported that Cindy paid out more than $ 8 million
[2:39] Speaker 1: in legal fees.
[2:41] Speaker 5: You know, not many people have $ 8 million to pursue
[2:44] Speaker 5: the truth, but that is obviously how strongly and passionate
[2:47] Speaker 5: she felt about this.
[2:49] Speaker 1: After 30 years in TV news, Rob said this is
[2:53] Speaker 1: one of the stories that will always stick with him.
[2:57] Speaker 5: We know that divorce cases can get very bitter, especially
[3:00] Speaker 5: when they involve children in custody. But this one was
[3:04] Speaker 5: so extreme. Cindy, you know, she had a really telling
[3:08] Speaker 5: quote in the story where she said something effective. I
[3:10] Speaker 5: had to choose between the truth and my family.
[3:14] Speaker 3: I was asked to choose between my children and the truth.
[3:22] Speaker 3: And for four years, I had to choose the truth.
[3:26] Speaker 5: You're always trying to separate yourself as a reporter, but
[3:29] Speaker 5: that was the first time in 30 years where I
[3:31] Speaker 5: literally got teary listening to Cindy. Because as a parent myself,
[3:35] Speaker 5: I just couldn't imagine something as awful and as horrific.
[3:39] Speaker 1: And now, the final chapter, Cindy's three children. In many ways,
[3:46] Speaker 1: her children are the primary victims in this case.
[3:50] Speaker 5: Unfortunate is just not a strong enough word for what
[3:52] Speaker 5: happened to them.
[3:54] Speaker 1: At the time of this recording... Cindy's daughter is an adult.
[3:58] Speaker 1: She's in college and living abroad. Earlier this year, we
[4:01] Speaker 1: contacted her, but she did not want to do a
[4:05] Speaker 1: formal interview. And since her brothers are still minors, we
[4:08] Speaker 1: didn't reach out to them. We don't know what the
[4:11] Speaker 1: children believe to be true or what they've been told
[4:14] Speaker 1: about their mother. We don't even know if they're aware
[4:17] Speaker 1: of the verdict from the civil trial. What we do
[4:20] Speaker 1: know is they still reside with their father, Steve. And
[4:24] Speaker 1: up until recently, They had no contact with their mother.
[4:28] Speaker 5: She still doesn't have custody of her kids. She's still
[4:31] Speaker 5: just trying to have a normal relationship with them and
[4:33] Speaker 5: hopefully get them to understand that this was all bogus.
[4:36] Speaker 1: And even though a jury found that Steve, the children's father,
[4:40] Speaker 1: had orchestrated a scorched earth campaign to win full custody
[4:45] Speaker 1: from Cindy, Cindy's twin boys are still living with Steve.
[4:50] Speaker 5: I know how deeply that troubles Cindy in particular because
[4:53] Speaker 5: this is her kid's she desperately wants to be with
[4:56] Speaker 5: and have a relationship with, and yet she's really been
[4:59] Speaker 5: prevented from having a meaningful relationship because the family court
[5:02] Speaker 5: system has moved so slow and certainly not in a
[5:07] Speaker 5: direction favorable to her. It seems like it's always been
[5:09] Speaker 5: favorable to her ex-husband. This really seemed to be a
[5:12] Speaker 5: case of parental alienation on stair rides.
[5:17] Speaker 1: Parental alienation. According to journalist Barbara Bradley Haggerty, It's a
[5:22] Speaker 1: controversial term heard in a lot of family law cases.
[5:26] Speaker 6: Parental alienation is basically a process through which one parent
[5:31] Speaker 6: turns a child against the other parent. It's essentially a
[5:36] Speaker 6: child being used as a weapon to hurt the ex.
[5:41] Speaker 1: Back in 2020, Barbara wrote about parental alienation for The Atlantic.
[5:46] Speaker 6: It was something I'd never heard of before. But one day,
[5:50] Speaker 6: one of my very close friends confided in me that
[5:53] Speaker 6: his marriage was falling apart and more troublesome was that
[5:56] Speaker 6: his child was withdrawing from him. He was worried because
[6:01] Speaker 6: he and this five-year-old child were just best buddies. Later,
[6:06] Speaker 6: I heard the wife bad-mouthing my friend, saying to the child,
[6:13] Speaker 6: Daddy's late again. Do you know what that means? That
[6:16] Speaker 6: means that Daddy doesn't love us. I mean, I was shocked.
[6:22] Speaker 1: Her colleague's child ultimately refused to see him.
[6:26] Speaker 6: And it has been 15 years since he's talked with
[6:30] Speaker 6: his kid. And I just can't tell you how brokenhearted
[6:33] Speaker 6: he is. He said, you know, this thing that I'm
[6:37] Speaker 6: going through, it's got a name. It's called parental alienation.
[6:43] Speaker 1: In her article titled When a Child is a Weapon,
[6:46] Speaker 1: Barbara wrote that when one parent turns a child against
[6:49] Speaker 1: the other, the family courts are often at a loss
[6:53] Speaker 1: as to what to do.
[6:55] Speaker 6: Even when the court ends up ruling that a child
[6:57] Speaker 6: has been coerced into shunning one parent, if the kid
[7:02] Speaker 6: still doesn't want to see that other parent, the judge
[7:05] Speaker 6: is like, hey, what am I going to do? Put
[7:07] Speaker 6: a 16-year-old in handcuffs?
[7:11] Speaker 1: What the courts have done is remove the child from
[7:14] Speaker 1: one parent and place the child with the other parent,
[7:18] Speaker 1: the alienated one. Sometimes the courts take it a step
[7:22] Speaker 1: further and send the child and alienated parent to what
[7:26] Speaker 1: are called reunification camps. These camps are usually at hotels
[7:32] Speaker 1: far away from the child's home.
[7:35] Speaker 6: They meet with a therapist for four days. They watch
[7:38] Speaker 6: videos about psychological manipulation. They try to discuss problems as
[7:43] Speaker 6: a family. And what supporters say is that it's giving
[7:47] Speaker 6: the kids a chance to reconnect with the unfavored parent,
[7:51] Speaker 6: to step back and kind of reconsider their assumptions about
[7:55] Speaker 6: that parent without the dominant parent breathing down their neck.
[7:59] Speaker 1: These camps last about four days and cost tens of
[8:03] Speaker 1: thousands of dollars with an average price around $ 20, 000. And
[8:08] Speaker 1: a judge often prohibits the favored parent from communicating with
[8:13] Speaker 1: the child for 90 days.
[8:15] Speaker 6: That's crucial because it allows this break in the relationship.
[8:20] Speaker 6: And if there is brainwashing, it allows a break in
[8:22] Speaker 6: the brainwashing. Critics, on the other hand, call it torture
[8:27] Speaker 6: camp for kids.
[8:30] Speaker 1: The backlash against reunification camps began after videos surfaced of
[8:35] Speaker 1: children screaming and crying as they're forcibly removed from their homes,
[8:40] Speaker 1: thrown into vans and driven to these camps. It's led
[8:43] Speaker 1: to some states outlawing them.
[8:46] Speaker 6: I'm not the least bit surprised that a lot of
[8:48] Speaker 6: states have gotten rid of reunification camps. I mean, most
[8:52] Speaker 6: psychologists think it's bunk and they think that the treatment
[8:56] Speaker 6: is dangerous.
[8:57] Speaker 1: In her research, Barbara said, She found the results of
[9:01] Speaker 1: these camps to be mixed.
[9:04] Speaker 6: What I've noticed is that when the programs, quote, work,
[9:09] Speaker 6: the children essentially switch allegiances. They cut off their formerly
[9:14] Speaker 6: favored parent and embrace the formerly unfavored parent. It's basically
[9:20] Speaker 6: all or nothing. So whether a child ever reconciles with
[9:24] Speaker 6: the mom or dad is really, at this point, a
[9:26] Speaker 6: matter of luck.
[9:29] Speaker 1: So the question is, how do the courts and therapists
[9:32] Speaker 1: handle kids who've been brainwashed by one parent into believing
[9:36] Speaker 1: the other parent is a terrible person? The scary answer is,
[9:41] Speaker 1: no one knows.
[9:44] Speaker 6: Reunification camps are hugely controversial. I think what we need
[9:48] Speaker 6: is some fresh eyes on this problem. We need to
[9:51] Speaker 6: acknowledge that it's a problem. And then someone needs to
[9:55] Speaker 6: take it seriously and look at it from the point
[9:57] Speaker 6: of view of the kids. How do we fix this?
[10:01] Speaker 6: How do we not damage these kids for the rest
[10:05] Speaker 6: of their lives? My research tells me that it's a
[10:10] Speaker 6: zero sum game. One side wins and the other side loses.
[10:15] Speaker 6: And in the end, the people who lose the most
[10:17] Speaker 6: are the kids.
[10:40] Speaker 1: Ever since divorcing Steve, Cindy's been in and out of
[10:43] Speaker 1: court with him. First, there was the litigation involving their
[10:47] Speaker 1: former company, Wildcat Minerals. Then came the civil trial that
[10:52] Speaker 1: resulted in a $ 21. 3 million verdict for Cindy and Kenny.
[10:57] Speaker 1: In between, Cindy and Steve have spent nearly a decade
[11:01] Speaker 1: in family court.
[11:03] Speaker 3: Family court is this kind of quasi-court where the judge
[11:07] Speaker 3: has a lot of discretion.
[11:09] Speaker 7: A lot.
[11:10] Speaker 3: And they are the only person making decisions.
[11:14] Speaker 1: As Cindy learned, the family court system is notorious for
[11:18] Speaker 1: being slow and expensive. It's a place filmmaker Ginger Gentile
[11:22] Speaker 1: has researched extensively.
[11:25] Speaker 8: In a murder case, you as a journalist can go
[11:28] Speaker 8: and get any public records. You can't walk into family
[11:32] Speaker 8: court in most jurisdictions and pull documents. And it's to
[11:35] Speaker 8: protect the family, but it also means that it's incredibly
[11:37] Speaker 8: secretive what goes on.
[11:40] Speaker 1: So some states like Colorado don't have a dedicated family
[11:44] Speaker 1: court system. So divorces and child custody cases end up
[11:48] Speaker 1: in the courtrooms of district court judges. That's what happened
[11:52] Speaker 1: in Cindy's case. She often refers to it as family court.
[11:56] Speaker 1: But in Colorado, it's more of an ad hoc system,
[11:59] Speaker 1: one that lacks specialized legal infrastructure.
[12:03] Speaker 8: Everyone says, we'll just go to court, just tell the
[12:05] Speaker 8: judge what's going on. And it might take you two
[12:07] Speaker 8: years to get a day in court. And these judges
[12:12] Speaker 8: don't have training in childhood psychology. They don't have training
[12:14] Speaker 8: in the latest science, for example. So depending on the jurisdiction,
[12:19] Speaker 8: this could be a punishment post for a judge. It
[12:21] Speaker 8: could also be a post that they rotate in and
[12:24] Speaker 8: out of.
[12:25] Speaker 1: Along with having untrained judges.
[12:29] Speaker 8: I think a lot of people have fantasies about the
[12:30] Speaker 8: court system, that there's some forensic team who's going to
[12:34] Speaker 8: rush in and look at everything. People will collect mountains
[12:38] Speaker 8: of evidence... But no one's ever going to really read it.
[12:42] Speaker 8: So they just look at the top line. They look
[12:44] Speaker 8: at what the psychologist says in the court case. The
[12:47] Speaker 8: biggest issue with the court system is the courts will
[12:49] Speaker 8: always look for who's at fault. And once they get
[12:53] Speaker 8: a narrative in, they'll try to find supporting evidence for that.
[12:56] Speaker 8: So a lot of people eventually get very frustrated.
[13:01] Speaker 1: Cindy experienced that intense frustration.
[13:04] Speaker 3: You think you're going to walk into court, you're going
[13:06] Speaker 3: to get your kids back. No, they're going to find
[13:08] Speaker 3: some other weird way of just keeping this going until
[13:13] Speaker 3: the kids age out.
[13:17] Speaker 1: After Judge Mary Hoke restricted Cindy's parenting time in 2019,
[13:22] Speaker 1: Cindy went back to court over a dozen times and
[13:26] Speaker 1: each time she's been denied.
[13:29] Speaker 3: You go through every single stage of grief. You go
[13:32] Speaker 3: through that shock like this isn't happening, is it really?
[13:36] Speaker 3: There's a bit of denial. Then the anger comes. A
[13:40] Speaker 3: lot of anger, frustration. It was an emotional roller coaster,
[13:44] Speaker 3: to say the least.
[13:47] Speaker 1: At one point, Judge Hoke gave Cindy a set of
[13:49] Speaker 1: goals to work toward. Things like refraining from including the
[13:54] Speaker 1: children in adult conflict.
[13:56] Speaker 3: And one of them is not to be litigating.
[14:01] Speaker 1: Judge Hoke's goal said, quote, Cindy needs to place the
[14:04] Speaker 1: needs of her children over her continued focus on litigation
[14:09] Speaker 1: and being right or vindicated.
[14:12] Speaker 3: When I saw the mom needs to stop being focused
[14:16] Speaker 3: on being vindicated, it was kind of like, what are
[14:18] Speaker 3: you after here with that sentence?
[14:21] Speaker 1: Think about it. If Cindy wasn't supposed to focus on
[14:24] Speaker 1: being vindicated, how could she prove to Judge Hoke that
[14:28] Speaker 1: Kenny did not abuse her children, especially when Judge Hoke
[14:32] Speaker 1: asked her to bring proof of Kenny's innocence.
[14:36] Speaker 3: She told me I needed to give her a piece
[14:38] Speaker 3: of paper that said this never happened. She literally told
[14:41] Speaker 3: me that. So I'm thinking I'm going down the path
[14:42] Speaker 3: she told me to.
[14:45] Speaker 1: When Cindy appealed DHS's ruling and got the abuse findings overturned,
[14:50] Speaker 1: she thought that was all the evidence Judge Hoke needed.
[14:54] Speaker 3: I gave it to her. That piece of paper meant nothing.
[15:00] Speaker 3: She says, you haven't made the progress that I need
[15:02] Speaker 3: to see about being vindicated. I'm like, I am vindicated.
[15:07] Speaker 3: I have an appeal that has this overturned.
[15:11] Speaker 1: None of it made sense to Cindy.
[15:14] Speaker 3: And the whole time she's punishing me. Well, you can't
[15:16] Speaker 3: get your kids back until your litigation's done or you
[15:18] Speaker 3: drop your litigation. But look at what the litigation proved.
[15:24] Speaker 3: They were all wrong. They didn't want to be proven wrong.
[15:29] Speaker 1: If you remember, even after the district attorney dropped child
[15:33] Speaker 1: abuse charges against Kenny, Judge Hope came to her own conclusion.
[15:39] Speaker 1: A voice actor will read from that court transcript.
[15:43] Speaker 9: I believe that something inappropriate occurred between Mr. Hamp and
[15:47] Speaker 9: these children, okay? I'm not being careless. I'm basing this
[15:52] Speaker 9: on nine days of evidence is what I'm doing. nine days,
[15:56] Speaker 9: all right, I can make the finding. And I would
[16:00] Speaker 9: posit that I am duty bound to do so. And
[16:04] Speaker 9: I've done so.
[16:05] Speaker 1: And then after DHS reversed their abuse findings, Judge Hoke
[16:11] Speaker 1: held firm.
[16:13] Speaker 3: She says, well, I don't know why they overturned it.
[16:15] Speaker 3: So I'm just going to assume that the abuse occurred still.
[16:20] Speaker 3: That's what I'm up against. I'm up against a judge
[16:23] Speaker 3: who cannot C, she's made a mistake, will never acknowledge it,
[16:28] Speaker 3: and uses my children against me until I agree with her.
[16:36] Speaker 1: Cindy felt like she was hitting a brick wall with
[16:38] Speaker 1: Judge Hogue, so she tried a different route. She hired
[16:42] Speaker 1: an expert on parental alienation.
[16:45] Speaker 10: My name is Dr. Jennifer Harmon. I started studying parental
[16:49] Speaker 10: alienation and other forms of family violence 13 years ago.
[16:54] Speaker 1: As you heard earlier, parental alienation is a controversial topic.
[16:59] Speaker 1: It's not a diagnosable medical condition, but rather a theory
[17:03] Speaker 1: that turns up in family court.
[17:06] Speaker 10: Like I've seen parents say to their five-year-old, hey, dad's
[17:10] Speaker 10: going to be picking you up after school today, so
[17:12] Speaker 10: get your backpack, get everything ready. And the kid sits
[17:14] Speaker 10: there for two hours waiting for dad to pick him up,
[17:17] Speaker 10: even though dad didn't even know that this was planned.
[17:19] Speaker 10: It wasn't planned. It was just told to them so
[17:21] Speaker 10: that mom could make the kid think that dad forgot
[17:23] Speaker 10: about him. It's that kind of stuff that makes me
[17:26] Speaker 10: do the research I'm doing to protect kids because look
[17:30] Speaker 10: at the kind of parent these kids are living with.
[17:34] Speaker 9: Dr.
[17:34] Speaker 1: Harmon reviewed numerous messages, court filings, the DHS report, the
[17:39] Speaker 1: children's forensic interviews, and other recorded interviews.
[17:44] Speaker 10: With parental alienating behaviors and coercive controlling behaviors in general,
[17:48] Speaker 10: they are patterned. You usually see them happen and escalate
[17:53] Speaker 10: in times where the parent feels they're losing control. When
[17:58] Speaker 10: you build a timeline, you say, all right, well, when
[18:01] Speaker 10: do people feel like they're losing control? They feel like
[18:03] Speaker 10: they're losing control when the other parent remarries or gets engaged.
[18:07] Speaker 10: They feel like they're losing control when there's a big
[18:09] Speaker 10: court hearing or they lost something in court, right?
[18:12] Speaker 1: What she found confirmed what Cindy believed about her ex-husband, Steve.
[18:18] Speaker 10: This wasn't just a sex abuse allegation gone wrong. There
[18:22] Speaker 10: was a lot more going on in the background.
[18:28] Speaker 9: Dr.
[18:28] Speaker 1: Harmon believes the timing of this allegation was calculated.
[18:33] Speaker 10: Cindy started dating somebody else and then there was some
[18:35] Speaker 10: financial stuff that was going on. But right after that
[18:39] Speaker 10: happened and she got a lot of money from a settlement,
[18:42] Speaker 10: things took a serious turn. She goes off to get
[18:45] Speaker 10: engaged and then they come back and there's this allegation
[18:48] Speaker 10: of abuse. And I could see it totally with how
[18:53] Speaker 10: Steve was reacting with police and the things he was saying, like, oh,
[18:57] Speaker 10: we've been waiting for years to get her, and comments
[19:00] Speaker 10: about how they just wanted full custody. This wasn't just
[19:03] Speaker 10: one-time statements. I mean, there were emails, there were different
[19:07] Speaker 10: events that made it clear that he had an agenda
[19:10] Speaker 10: of what he was hoping to do, and he was
[19:12] Speaker 10: trying to find somebody to get the leverage he needed
[19:15] Speaker 10: to do it. So that was my conclusion after looking
[19:18] Speaker 10: through all of it.
[19:20] Speaker 4: Dr.
[19:20] Speaker 1: Harmon put her findings in a 97-page report. She even
[19:25] Speaker 1: spent three days testifying in front of Judge Hoke.
[19:30] Speaker 3: Dr. Harmon said, this is coercive control, this is domestic violence.
[19:33] Speaker 3: And Judge Hoke said, nope, I don't think so.
[19:36] Speaker 1: A voice actor will read from Judge Hoke's ruling.
[19:40] Speaker 9: She still seems deeply entrenched in alienation. She seems deeply
[19:45] Speaker 9: entrenched in vindicating her, her significant other, and moving forward
[19:50] Speaker 9: with her version of events. And she's welcome to do so.
[19:54] Speaker 9: But it's this court's position that that is not in
[19:58] Speaker 9: the best interest of her children and is in fact
[20:01] Speaker 9: emotionally damaging to her children and emotionally impairing to her
[20:05] Speaker 9: children to do that.
[20:08] Speaker 3: No matter who I put on my team, Hoke was
[20:11] Speaker 3: always going to be against it.
[20:13] Speaker 7: Didn't matter.
[20:15] Speaker 1: In 2021, Steve asked the court if he could take
[20:19] Speaker 1: the children and move, not just out of state, but
[20:22] Speaker 1: off the continent to Hawaii. And Judge Hoke allowed it.
[20:27] Speaker 1: Any hope Cindy had about being a parent to her
[20:30] Speaker 1: children went out the window. With that ruling, she accepted
[20:34] Speaker 1: that she probably would not see her kids again until
[20:38] Speaker 1: they were adults.
[20:39] Speaker 3: That was dark. I hate the courts. They don't want
[20:47] Speaker 3: to see anything that doesn't conform to their views. I
[20:54] Speaker 3: don't know what's wrong with those people. They're just, they're
[20:59] Speaker 3: so myopic. They're so myopic.
[21:02] Speaker 1: In a story already marked by relentless heartbreak, watching the
[21:07] Speaker 1: court allow Steve to move the children to Hawaii was
[21:10] Speaker 1: Cindy's absolute rock bottom. Here's Dr. Harmon again.
[21:16] Speaker 10: Like, it would be nearly impossible for her to be
[21:18] Speaker 10: able to see the kids at that point. I think
[21:20] Speaker 10: it's very sad. It makes me sad to even think
[21:22] Speaker 10: about how bad it got. Cindy's effectively been erased from
[21:27] Speaker 10: her kids' lives. A lot of parents liken it to
[21:31] Speaker 10: their children being dead, but they're alive. I mean, because
[21:33] Speaker 10: they're essentially dead to them, right? You know, the kids
[21:36] Speaker 10: have cut them off completely. It's the same kind of grief.
[21:59] Speaker 1: After winning a $ 21. 3 million verdict, Cindy once again returned
[22:04] Speaker 1: to Judge Hoke's courtroom. She hoped the ruling would finally
[22:08] Speaker 1: unlock the custody stalemate she'd been in for the past
[22:12] Speaker 1: four years. And this time, it worked. Well, sort of.
[22:17] Speaker 1: A voice actor will read from Judge Hoke's order.
[22:21] Speaker 9: This court restricted mother's parenting time primarily on mother's refusal
[22:26] Speaker 9: to accept the allegations of abuse against Mr. Hamp.
[22:30] Speaker 1: But Judge Hoke wrote that the civil verdict was significant
[22:34] Speaker 1: evidence that Kenny did not abuse the children.
[22:38] Speaker 9: If the sexual abuse of one or more of the
[22:40] Speaker 9: children did not happen, that finding removes the primary basis
[22:44] Speaker 9: for the court's restriction on mother's parenting time. It also
[22:48] Speaker 9: removes the need for mother to comply with the court's
[22:50] Speaker 9: treatment goals the court previously stated mother had to meet.
[22:55] Speaker 1: In other words, Judge Hoke's goals were moot.
[22:59] Speaker 9: The court is then left with how to proceed. The
[23:02] Speaker 9: court vacates the restrictions on mother's parenting time, but does
[23:06] Speaker 9: not order any parenting time for mother at this time.
[23:09] Speaker 9: This order is in the best interest of the party's
[23:12] Speaker 9: minor children.
[23:16] Speaker 1: It's a confusing ruling, but Judge Hoke allowed the children
[23:20] Speaker 1: to continue to live with their father, Steve.
[23:23] Speaker 3: They wouldn't allow the children to be removed from Steve.
[23:28] Speaker 3: This is so outrageous. This is so not normal. It
[23:31] Speaker 3: just keeps getting weirder and more bizarre every time we
[23:35] Speaker 3: head to court. My entire case has been a complete
[23:38] Speaker 3: disaster from beginning to today, and I still don't have
[23:43] Speaker 3: my kids. I mean, we're going on seven years now.
[23:47] Speaker 1: Judge Hoke ordered reintegration therapy. Okay, stick with me here.
[23:53] Speaker 1: Reintegration is different than being sent to reunification camps. It's
[23:59] Speaker 1: an intensive type of therapy to reunite parents and children.
[24:03] Speaker 1: Generally speaking, this type of therapy takes well over a year,
[24:07] Speaker 1: and by the time it began, Cindy's daughter was 18
[24:11] Speaker 1: and had aged out of the system. So therapy included Cindy, Steve,
[24:17] Speaker 1: and the twin boys. Due to HIPAA rules, Cindy can't
[24:21] Speaker 1: comment on how that therapy is going. As for Cindy's
[24:25] Speaker 1: relationship with her daughter?
[24:27] Speaker 3: I reached out to my daughter on her 18th birthday.
[24:29] Speaker 3: We sent flowers to the school. And I reached out
[24:33] Speaker 3: to her through a text, and I'm like, would love
[24:34] Speaker 3: to talk. And she just says she wants nothing to
[24:38] Speaker 3: do with me. She was the last one to turn.
[24:44] Speaker 1: Cindy and Kenny's engagement has been on hold for years,
[24:47] Speaker 1: ever since it began, really.
[24:50] Speaker 3: We've been delaying it just because we wanted the kids
[24:52] Speaker 3: at the wedding. But it's looking less and less like
[24:56] Speaker 3: that's ever going to happen. I'm just hoping that maybe
[25:00] Speaker 3: in the next year or so, I'll hear from her.
[25:08] Speaker 1: Earlier this summer, we spoke with Steve, We even exchanged
[25:12] Speaker 1: a few messages with him about doing an interview. A
[25:16] Speaker 1: voice actor will read from Steve's email.
[25:20] Speaker 11: As we discussed, I have concerns. I understand that your
[25:24] Speaker 11: deadline is late summer. You mentioned that you attempted to
[25:28] Speaker 11: contact me via Gmail address. I do not have a
[25:31] Speaker 11: Gmail address. I am also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
[25:37] Speaker 11: A message could have been sent through any of these platforms.
[25:41] Speaker 11: As your team conducts investigative journalism, I am really struggling
[25:46] Speaker 11: to understand how you could not find me. My address
[25:50] Speaker 11: and phone numbers are also public.
[25:54] Speaker 1: To be clear, in 2025 and 2026, we message Steve,
[25:59] Speaker 1: although Steve claims that the Gmail account we message does
[26:03] Speaker 1: not belong to him. Additionally, we reached out to three
[26:07] Speaker 1: of Steve's lawyers, Steve's niece, and even Steve's mother, Aleda.
[26:12] Speaker 1: At the time of this recording, we haven't heard back
[26:15] Speaker 1: from any of them. Earlier this summer, Steve sent us
[26:20] Speaker 1: a follow-up email. A voice actor will read from that.
[26:24] Speaker 11: I believe that you stated that you attempted to reach
[26:27] Speaker 11: my mother. She has no record of your firm emailing
[26:30] Speaker 11: or calling. It's confusing that you found my daughter's email
[26:34] Speaker 11: address but could not locate mine or mother's.
[26:38] Speaker 1: In July of this year, we again messaged Aleda through
[26:42] Speaker 1: her email, text, and Facebook. We have not heard back.
[26:46] Speaker 1: We also sent Steve an outline of questions we hoped
[26:49] Speaker 1: to discuss. A month later, we followed up with him.
[26:53] Speaker 1: At the time of this recording, we have not heard
[26:55] Speaker 1: back from Steve. If you remember, it wasn't Cindy who
[27:08] Speaker 1: came to us with this story. It was Steve's second wife, Christine.
[27:13] Speaker 1: But Christine also hasn't agreed to do an interview, citing
[27:17] Speaker 1: her ongoing legal issues. And that's left Cindy and Kenny
[27:22] Speaker 1: wondering what's on Christine's mind.
[27:25] Speaker 12: She still never, ever apologized and said she did anything
[27:31] Speaker 12: wrong when she was a participant. in the manipulation, in
[27:35] Speaker 12: the false narrative. And now she wants to be the
[27:38] Speaker 12: victim as in she's suffering and she has loss.
[27:42] Speaker 3: She had so many opportunities to turn this around.
[27:47] Speaker 1: As for Cindy, when we first approached her about sharing
[27:50] Speaker 1: her story, she was hesitant. It wasn't an easy decision.
[27:55] Speaker 1: She was concerned about how her children would react if
[27:58] Speaker 1: they ever heard the podcast.
[28:00] Speaker 3: Ideally, I hope they understand that I did it to help.
[28:07] Speaker 3: It's not about exposing their dad. It's not about embarrassing him.
[28:12] Speaker 3: I'm doing this to expose the system and how flawed
[28:16] Speaker 3: it is and how it's failing families now that I
[28:19] Speaker 3: got caught up in it. You know, it may not
[28:21] Speaker 3: help my relationship with my kids, but I don't want
[28:24] Speaker 3: my boys accused of doing something like this and have
[28:28] Speaker 3: them arrested. and have them lose their lives and, you know,
[28:31] Speaker 3: spend the amount of money that I had to. I
[28:35] Speaker 3: can only hope that this doesn't happen to them.
[28:38] Speaker 1: She hopes that one day her kids will be able
[28:41] Speaker 1: to piece together what really happened.
[28:45] Speaker 3: I've put a puzzle together for you. I've done the borders.
[28:48] Speaker 3: I've done certain places. And over time, as you grow older,
[28:52] Speaker 3: you are going to start putting those pieces in. And
[28:54] Speaker 3: it's going to start filling in. And then you'll start
[28:57] Speaker 3: understanding what happened, even if you don't understand it. today
[29:00] Speaker 3: and you will see what really happened here even if
[29:04] Speaker 3: we can't be together.
[29:07] Speaker 1: For years kenny felt that burden of guilt.
[29:11] Speaker 7: Kenny has resolved those feelings he's kind of moved on
[29:14] Speaker 7: you know what i want i want never see another
[29:17] Speaker 7: courtroom never talk to another jury never be involved in
[29:20] Speaker 7: any of this stuff anymore i now want to just
[29:23] Speaker 7: move on with my life i've cleared my name won.
[29:26] Speaker 4: The civil expose the people that did what they did,
[29:30] Speaker 4: especially Steve. So that's out there. I feel good. I
[29:34] Speaker 4: don't feel good about what happened, but I sure as
[29:36] Speaker 4: hell feel good about moving forward with my life, even
[29:39] Speaker 4: though I'll be traumatized and my life's forever changed. But
[29:42] Speaker 4: I just want Cindy and I to move forward, love
[29:44] Speaker 4: each other, and live our life the best that we can.
[29:47] Speaker 4: And the kids today are still suffering from what he's done.
[29:53] Speaker 1: And of course, that bothers Cindy. So last winter, we
[29:57] Speaker 1: connected her with Ginger Chantil. She's the filmmaker who studied
[30:02] Speaker 1: parental alienation and the family court system. You heard Ginger
[30:06] Speaker 1: earlier in this episode.
[30:09] Speaker 13: I made two movies about this. One is called Erasing Family.
[30:13] Speaker 13: It's about children reuniting. And after that movie came out,
[30:17] Speaker 13: a lot of parents asked me to help them reunite
[30:20] Speaker 13: with their kids.
[30:21] Speaker 3: But I was a filmmaker.
[30:24] Speaker 8: So at first I said no. And then eventually I
[30:26] Speaker 8: said yes. Fast forward, I quit the film industry and
[30:31] Speaker 8: now do this full time. And I have a team
[30:33] Speaker 8: of coaches, all ex-alien moms, dads and kids who do
[30:37] Speaker 8: this full time.
[30:40] Speaker 1: In this case, Ginger got together with Cindy so Cindy
[30:44] Speaker 1: could write a letter to her kids. It was a
[30:47] Speaker 1: virtual session and they allowed us to listen in. Ginger
[30:51] Speaker 1: started with an exercise that would help Cindy focus on
[30:55] Speaker 1: what she wanted to say. But that exercise took Cindy
[30:59] Speaker 1: in a direction she did not expect.
[31:03] Speaker 14: Cindy, I want you to see, visualize, feel, imagine that
[31:08] Speaker 14: you're walking along a beautiful beach. And as you keep walking,
[31:14] Speaker 14: you see in the distance the kids. You keep walking.
[31:21] Speaker 14: And as you keep walking, you see your eldest child.
[31:29] Speaker 14: And she runs over to you and gives you a big,
[31:32] Speaker 14: beautiful hug.
[31:37] Speaker 3: I need a moment.
[31:41] Speaker 1: Cindy removed her headset and quickly left the room. A
[31:45] Speaker 1: few minutes later, she came back.
[31:48] Speaker 14: What's going on, Cindy, as you think about this?
[31:52] Speaker 3: It makes me feel uncomfortable. Okay.
[31:55] Speaker 13: What didn't you like about it?
[31:58] Speaker 3: I don't want to have these thoughts. I don't want
[32:04] Speaker 3: to even imagine it. It's too uncomfortable.
[32:09] Speaker 14: What's uncomfortable?
[32:12] Speaker 3: Because there's too much hope behind it. I've been doing
[32:16] Speaker 3: this for six long years, going on seven, of, oh,
[32:21] Speaker 3: people are going to figure this out. Oh, this is
[32:23] Speaker 3: going to turn around in the next week. Oh, this
[32:26] Speaker 3: will turn around by the end of the year. I've
[32:28] Speaker 3: been doing this for seven years. I'm tired of it.
[32:31] Speaker 3: It's like trying to tell somebody that has no legs
[32:33] Speaker 3: they're going to someday run or they're blind and they're
[32:37] Speaker 3: going to see someday. It was just impossible. And every
[32:40] Speaker 3: year you tell them, oh, this is the year. This
[32:42] Speaker 3: is the year it's going to turn around for you.
[32:44] Speaker 3: I can't even do that imagery. It's just too painful.
[32:51] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
[33:00] Speaker 1: Cindy says there are days when she's hopeful, and then
[33:04] Speaker 1: there are the days where all she can think about
[33:07] Speaker 1: is despair and everything she's lost. But she does hold
[33:11] Speaker 1: on to hope that one day her children will accept
[33:14] Speaker 1: the truth.
[33:16] Speaker 3: So I don't think I'm going to have a relationship
[33:18] Speaker 3: with my kids ever again. It makes me cry just
[33:22] Speaker 3: thinking about it. I mean, when your kids are still
[33:26] Speaker 3: alive and you know you will never see them again,
[33:29] Speaker 3: You're kind of in limbo all the time, you know, wondering,
[33:33] Speaker 3: kind of hoping. And then you don't want to get
[33:35] Speaker 3: your expectations up, your hope up, because then it just
[33:40] Speaker 3: gets crushed again. I try and be hopeful about it.
[33:44] Speaker 3: I try. I've already missed a graduation, high school graduation.
[33:51] Speaker 3: I've missed, God, how many, eight Mother's Days, Christmas. I'm
[33:55] Speaker 3: going to miss a lot more. I've accepted it. And
[33:59] Speaker 3: I know it. That makes me sad.
[34:10] Speaker 1: One afternoon, almost 14 years ago, Cindy's twin boys were
[34:14] Speaker 1: running around their backyard. All of a sudden, things went quiet.
[34:19] Speaker 1: And then came the sound of laughter, followed by splashing water.
[34:24] Speaker 1: The boys had climbed into a short little birdbath.
[34:28] Speaker 3: They were about two. And I was cracking up. Like
[34:32] Speaker 3: they're taking a little bath.
[34:35] Speaker 1: Cindy snapped a photo so she could remember that joyous moment.
[34:39] Speaker 3: It was the cutest picture of these two boys.
[34:44] Speaker 1: These days, Cindy often finds herself looking at that photo.
[34:48] Speaker 1: And each time, it puts a smile on her face.
[34:52] Speaker 1: It's a reminder of the good memories she had when
[34:55] Speaker 1: they were a family.
[34:58] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good memory I have. I even told
[35:02] Speaker 3: the boys, I said, you know, even with everything that happened,
[35:06] Speaker 3: your dad's not going to take those memories from me.
[35:08] Speaker 3: Nothing is.
[35:33] Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Season 3 of Burden of Guilt.
[35:38] Speaker 1: You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team
[35:41] Speaker 1: at burdenofguiltpod at gmail.com. That's burdenofguiltpod at gmail.com. Be sure
[35:50] Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Glass Podcasts. Burden of
[35:55] Speaker 1: Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
[35:59] Speaker 1: Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. This series
[36:04] Speaker 1: is executive produced and hosted by me, Nancy Glass. Produced
[36:09] Speaker 1: by Todd Gans. Also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
[36:14] Speaker 1: Additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Our story editor
[36:20] Speaker 1: is Monique Laborde. Our associate producer is Jade Abdul-Malik. Our
[36:25] Speaker 1: production manager is Kristen Malkuri. Our IHAR team is Allie
[36:30] Speaker 1: Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing by Dean Welsh. Audio
[36:36] Speaker 1: mixing and mastering by Anna McClain and Matt Dalbecchio. Thank
[36:41] Speaker 1: you to our voice actors, James Palumbo, Lucy Kohler, and
[36:45] Speaker 1: Tanner Robbins. The Burden of Guilt theme is composed by
[36:50] Speaker 1: Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. For more
[36:55] Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app or Apple Podcasts.
[37:03] Speaker 10: Thank you.

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