# Auto Oracle Kevin Tynan

An episode of [Bloomberg Hot Pursuit!](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1710787142), 25 Jul 2026, 1 h 05 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4778f66f-5d19-456a-9820-b08f00dfd567/6194afb4-3e81-4ad1-ad52-b492001546af/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=42336c1a-f7c2-4898-885b-b08f00e0bb66

The director of research for The Presidio Group joins the podcast to talk about how when it comes to cars, Europe has a China problem - and how America has already lost the EV race. Plus, the BMW M5 Touring and Mercedes opens a Maybach atelier in Beverly Hills. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
[0:09] Speaker 2: I'm Hannah Elliott and I'm Matt Miller.
[0:11] Speaker 3: This is Hot Pursuit.
[0:17] Speaker 2: Coming up on today's podcast. We've got Kevin Tynan, the
[0:20] Speaker 2: director of research for the Presidio Group. Now we know
[0:24] Speaker 2: Kevin as the head of automotive intelligence for Bloomberg. That's
[0:27] Speaker 2: how we have met him and known him for years.
[0:30] Speaker 2: But he is such a great analyst and communicator of
[0:34] Speaker 2: what's actually happening in the automotive market. So I'm very
[0:38] Speaker 2: happy to have Kevin.
[0:39] Speaker 3: And a massive gearhead. I mean, he has an amazing
[0:44] Speaker 3: garage in New Jersey with it. So it's packed with
[0:49] Speaker 3: guitars hanging from the wall. You've seen it, right, and
[0:52] Speaker 3: like amplifiers everywhere. And then he's got like Mercedes.
[0:57] Speaker 2: Well, we haven't seen it. I don't think I've seen it.
[1:00] Speaker 3: It's insane. It is so good, it's like I don't
[1:06] Speaker 3: for some reason, I think of like if Gene Simmons
[1:09] Speaker 3: was a gearhead and built his own garage, it would
[1:11] Speaker 3: look like this. So I'm looking forward to that conversation
[1:15] Speaker 3: as well. We're going to dig into the big problems
[1:17] Speaker 3: that especially German automakers are facing, in the face of
[1:22] Speaker 3: Chinese competition and high cost production. But I want to
[1:27] Speaker 3: focus in with you for a moment, Handah on German automakers,
[1:30] Speaker 3: because you and I have both been driving a lot
[1:33] Speaker 3: of BMW's. I recently bought one, and you've had specifically
[1:38] Speaker 3: a string of M cars that would make you know,
[1:43] Speaker 3: a teenage roadent track subscriber drool. What have you been driving?
[1:49] Speaker 2: So, as you know, I was in the M two
[1:53] Speaker 2: CS and the the M four, and last week, or
[1:56] Speaker 2: actually this week, I should say, I've been in the
[1:59] Speaker 2: M five to two, which is of course the wagon.
[2:03] Speaker 2: The one I had was in this amazing green color.
[2:08] Speaker 2: Somebody said it looked like a green slug, which is
[2:11] Speaker 2: kind of cool. It's like this olive green.
[2:12] Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought it looked like an olive pretty much.
[2:14] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:15] Speaker 2: I love the spec. Of course. It's a four point
[2:18] Speaker 2: four leader V eight eight speed starts at about one
[2:24] Speaker 2: hundred and twenty two thousand dollars, so kind of the
[2:26] Speaker 2: same price as the M four, and I loved it.
[2:31] Speaker 2: Now I know we're gonna have a little conversation about this,
[2:34] Speaker 2: because coming out of the M four, going into the
[2:37] Speaker 2: M five, the M five felt instantly more adult, more powerful,
[2:44] Speaker 2: more uh, just more of a serious car. As you know,
[2:49] Speaker 2: I thought that the M four to me is a
[2:51] Speaker 2: little bit just soft. I this actually felt great to
[2:55] Speaker 2: get into.
[2:57] Speaker 3: I take the other side of that bent because I
[3:00] Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago. Also as driving the M
[3:02] Speaker 3: five Wagon, mine was in an amazing purple, like a
[3:08] Speaker 3: plum purple color. And they're nailing it in terms of
[3:11] Speaker 3: their paints. And normally I'm a massive fan of the wagon,
[3:18] Speaker 3: like I adore a station wagon. My first car that
[3:22] Speaker 3: I ever bought myself was an Audi a four Avant,
[3:25] Speaker 3: And I mean I would never option a sedan when
[3:29] Speaker 3: I could have a wagon. But to me, the M
[3:34] Speaker 3: five Wagon or not, I've driven both versions of this generation.
[3:38] Speaker 3: It's just like too good. It's so good that it's
[3:41] Speaker 3: boring a lot like a nine to eleven GTS. I
[3:44] Speaker 3: just can't really feel the gear changes. It does have
[3:48] Speaker 3: those like teenage pops on DCEL, which I'm very much over.
[3:52] Speaker 3: And it's just so big.
[3:56] Speaker 2: It's it is long. It feels long for sure, it's
[3:59] Speaker 2: a slug and.
[4:00] Speaker 3: I don't really love the way it looks either. Like
[4:03] Speaker 3: I think the M four is more much more attractive
[4:06] Speaker 3: and more resolved design. And I also recently drove the
[4:09] Speaker 3: M two CS, which is much more raw and exciting
[4:14] Speaker 3: and you know, a visceral experience everything that we want,
[4:18] Speaker 3: even without the stick. I loved the M two CS.
[4:23] Speaker 3: So for me, I'd say the M five is the
[4:27] Speaker 3: is my third choice of those three.
[4:29] Speaker 2: Wow, I am really really shocked. Really, I am very
[4:34] Speaker 2: shocked because with this IN five, for instance, Okay, it's
[4:38] Speaker 2: got that urban green the factory color is urban green.
[4:42] Speaker 2: It's a five thousand dollars option, but also the it
[4:45] Speaker 2: was like twenty and twenty one inch dual spoke bicolor
[4:50] Speaker 2: wheels that were super cool. It's got all of it's
[4:54] Speaker 2: got the glow package on the kidney grill, It's got
[4:58] Speaker 2: all of these extra like black roof and shadow line
[5:02] Speaker 2: lights and like obviously red red break calipers, and like
[5:06] Speaker 2: all of these things that all the Beamer bros love
[5:11] Speaker 2: and I kind of get it. Maybe I wouldn't buy
[5:15] Speaker 2: it from my personal car if I only had one,
[5:17] Speaker 2: but I'm very surprised because this to me, was more
[5:21] Speaker 2: brutalist and like structurally interesting in the four, which, again,
[5:28] Speaker 2: the M four to me was just like a little
[5:30] Speaker 2: bit of a version of the M two with all
[5:33] Speaker 2: the edge rounded and off, it just felt a little
[5:36] Speaker 2: bit soft, a little bit bloated.
[5:40] Speaker 3: No, you're right, I get it. I get what you're saying,
[5:42] Speaker 3: and I think you're wrong. Like the M two and
[5:44] Speaker 3: the M five are both much more severe designs, right,
[5:51] Speaker 3: and the M four looks a lot more like every
[5:54] Speaker 3: other BMW, Like you wouldn't be able to tell if
[5:57] Speaker 3: that's really an M four or an M six and
[5:59] Speaker 3: the when you look at it.
[6:00] Speaker 2: And but that's why I'm surprised you like it.
[6:03] Speaker 3: But but but uh, I think it's so the M two.
[6:07] Speaker 3: I love that it's so in your face and raucous,
[6:12] Speaker 3: and it drives that way as well, which is what
[6:15] Speaker 3: I love. The M four, I just think is a
[6:18] Speaker 3: more attractive vehicle, Like objectively, it's it's finished the way
[6:25] Speaker 3: you would expect the M five. To me, it's just
[6:28] Speaker 3: nothing can hide how big and heavy it is. It's
[6:31] Speaker 3: just and I and I just for some reason don't
[6:35] Speaker 3: dig the way it looks. I yes, the wheels are cool,
[6:39] Speaker 3: black roof. I've never understood why you would want unless
[6:42] Speaker 3: it's you know, just the carbon fiber look like, why
[6:45] Speaker 3: do you want a heat sink? On your roof and
[6:48] Speaker 3: on your hood. I've never understood why people do black
[6:50] Speaker 3: roof and hood. If you're gonna do anything different than
[6:53] Speaker 3: do white roof and hood, you know there's a look well,
[6:56] Speaker 3: but not not for the look, right, but so that
[6:58] Speaker 3: you don't have the sun boiling you on the inside.
[7:01] Speaker 3: I don't know.
[7:03] Speaker 2: To me, let me ask you this so fast.
[7:05] Speaker 3: And it's so and it's so good that it's like boring,
[7:08] Speaker 3: and it still has the big sharp screen on the
[7:11] Speaker 3: inside that I can't get along.
[7:13] Speaker 2: Find that screen that I know we've talked about this
[7:16] Speaker 2: for some reason that didn't get me. Let me ask
[7:19] Speaker 2: you this, how much does your seventh series way?
[7:24] Speaker 3: The seventh series must weigh more? I don't actually know
[7:30] Speaker 3: the M five. I wouldn't be I wouldn't be surprised
[7:32] Speaker 3: if they're about the same. But the thing is so
[7:35] Speaker 3: I had the M five wagon the same week that
[7:39] Speaker 3: I got the seven series or a week later. Yes,
[7:42] Speaker 3: And one of the problems for me with the M
[7:44] Speaker 3: five is I would walk out to my driveway look
[7:47] Speaker 3: at this new fangled high tech M five and it's
[7:51] Speaker 3: fast and it's precise, and then I would look at
[7:54] Speaker 3: my big boat of a seven sixty and it's like
[7:58] Speaker 3: driving a diesel locomotive. I chose the seven sixty more
[8:03] Speaker 3: often than I chose the M five. Part of that
[8:06] Speaker 3: is probably because I just got it. It's mine and
[8:08] Speaker 3: it's new, new to me.
[8:09] Speaker 2: Well, that's totally fair, that's totally fair.
[8:12] Speaker 3: But I just if I were going to order M cars,
[8:15] Speaker 3: I think I would put the M five Like last,
[8:18] Speaker 3: I would rather have an M two. I would rather
[8:20] Speaker 3: have the new M three cs Hans Shelter. I would
[8:24] Speaker 3: rather have an M four. I would rather have They
[8:27] Speaker 3: don't make the M six anymore, I don't think. But
[8:28] Speaker 3: I'd rather have the M eight even as you know, like, yeah,
[8:36] Speaker 3: so all of those for me would would trump the
[8:40] Speaker 3: big wagon, which is interesting because I'm such a wagon guy.
[8:43] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised. It's good to know. Yeah, I mean,
[8:47] Speaker 2: I'm not. Does a wagon fit a child seat in
[8:51] Speaker 2: the in the.
[8:52] Speaker 3: None of those cars, except for the seven series, will
[8:54] Speaker 3: fit a large rear facing child seat behind a driver
[9:00] Speaker 3: who is pushed all the way back like that doesn't
[9:03] Speaker 3: work in a range rover unless it's the long wheelbase.
[9:06] Speaker 3: That's why I like these big German limousines, because it
[9:10] Speaker 3: does work in the A eight to L. It does
[9:12] Speaker 3: work in the seven series, the L versions, which almost
[9:15] Speaker 3: all Americans ones are, and it does work in the
[9:18] Speaker 3: S class. That's for a dad, that's a huge bonus.
[9:21] Speaker 3: By the way, I want to just pivot to Mercedes
[9:25] Speaker 3: before we get to Kevin, and we'll talk with him
[9:27] Speaker 3: about Mercedes a lot because he owns so many and
[9:29] Speaker 3: he's a big fan, and we're going to focus on
[9:30] Speaker 3: German cars. But there has been so much hate for
[9:36] Speaker 3: AMG online and there's always I mean, online is where
[9:40] Speaker 3: hate lives, so I guess that's to be expected. But Callari,
[9:44] Speaker 3: I've been driving the AMG GT sixty three that you
[9:48] Speaker 3: and I both love. You picked it for your Car
[9:50] Speaker 3: of the Year last year of it, but I've been
[9:53] Speaker 3: driving like the pro version. So they make this big
[9:57] Speaker 3: beefy hybrid, the s E Performance version with eight hundred
[10:02] Speaker 3: horsepower a thousand pounds feet of torque. That's to me,
[10:05] Speaker 3: the AMGGT version of the nine to eleven turbos, right,
[10:10] Speaker 3: And they make now this GT sixty three pro version,
[10:15] Speaker 3: which I'm gonna call their GT three touring. It's like
[10:19] Speaker 3: a nine to eleven GT three touring because it's it
[10:22] Speaker 3: takes away the hybrid components, so it's just the motor. Okay,
[10:26] Speaker 3: it's not naturally aspirated, but it's a big V eight
[10:29] Speaker 3: with turbos. And you can't get a stick with the
[10:35] Speaker 3: AMGGT either in any form or even a DCET. They
[10:40] Speaker 3: have their own transmission, but it's like lighter, five hundred
[10:45] Speaker 3: pounds lighter. It's a lot more nimble as a result,
[10:50] Speaker 3: and some of the luxury like sound deadening is stripped out.
[10:57] Speaker 3: But it's just an amazing car. And for all of
[11:00] Speaker 3: the for all of the shade that AMG gets, for
[11:04] Speaker 3: going down to four cylinders or even no cylinders, I
[11:09] Speaker 3: think these amggts are just amazing vehicles. Granted they cost
[11:16] Speaker 3: a ton of money.
[11:17] Speaker 2: They cost a ton of money, but I have to say,
[11:21] Speaker 2: and I was just with Mercedes earlier this week in
[11:24] Speaker 2: Beverly Hills. They had an opening for their new my
[11:27] Speaker 2: Boch Attilia and they unveiled a new Mercedes my Boch SUV,
[11:33] Speaker 2: the GLS six't eighty. And I had some time talking
[11:37] Speaker 2: with some of their board members and executives this week,
[11:41] Speaker 2: and this is going to sound very oversimplified, but they
[11:46] Speaker 2: are so smart and they are so good they know
[11:50] Speaker 2: what they're doing, and they are able to articulate exactly
[11:55] Speaker 2: why they're doing things in a way that is not
[11:59] Speaker 2: calm among every other automaker. And I always say, the
[12:06] Speaker 2: products indicate what's happening in the company. Again, maybe this
[12:09] Speaker 2: is an oversimplified thing, but it remains true. The products
[12:14] Speaker 2: indicate what is really going on, and there is a
[12:16] Speaker 2: lag time between product and where the company is. But
[12:20] Speaker 2: that has that has always been true in my experience,
[12:23] Speaker 2: and the products at Mercedes continue to be good, some
[12:28] Speaker 2: better than others. But to your point, Matt, they understand
[12:33] Speaker 2: that that there is a very strong appetite among certain
[12:39] Speaker 2: people like us who are appreciate and love that car
[12:44] Speaker 2: and really need that car who to exist. I mean,
[12:47] Speaker 2: they get they understand that.
[12:49] Speaker 3: I just wish it was making sense thing too. I mean,
[12:52] Speaker 3: I just wish it wasn't so expensive like this one
[12:54] Speaker 3: starts at I think two hundred and fifteen or two
[12:56] Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand. If you want the se performance,
[13:00] Speaker 3: you're paying you know that. Plus it's like it's unaffordable
[13:04] Speaker 3: for almost anyone. Right, Yeah, let's get to SpaceX. Let's
[13:08] Speaker 3: get SpaceX shares.
[13:09] Speaker 2: And that reflects the fact that these things are becoming scarce,
[13:15] Speaker 2: which makes them luxury objects.
[13:19] Speaker 3: But I also think that it can hold its own
[13:21] Speaker 3: against Obviously a nine to eleven is a slightly different
[13:25] Speaker 3: use case, but definitely they're priced that way too. When
[13:28] Speaker 3: you get to the Turbo and the GT three, it
[13:31] Speaker 3: can hold its own in my opinion, against the Lamborghini Temorio,
[13:34] Speaker 3: which I drove last week, and although it took me
[13:40] Speaker 3: a while to fall in love with it, I did.
[13:43] Speaker 3: It feels like more of an Audi than a Lamborghini.
[13:46] Speaker 3: But it's twice the price of this GT sixty AMGGT
[13:51] Speaker 3: sixty three Pro, and the AMG sounds better. The AMG
[13:57] Speaker 3: is more comfortable and maybe in some circles, also more
[14:01] Speaker 3: socially acceptable. I feel like it's a supercar. It's a
[14:06] Speaker 3: legit supercar. These amggtas car, for sure, they're so powerful.
[14:13] Speaker 3: I'd rather have a Corvette than either one. But oh wow,
[14:16] Speaker 3: well because I save so much money that way, right, Yeah,
[14:19] Speaker 3: The Corvette has a six point eight liter naturally aspirated
[14:24] Speaker 3: V eight and it starts at like seventy five thousand dollars.
[14:28] Speaker 3: That's insane, I know.
[14:31] Speaker 2: I think you lose something on the fit and finish
[14:35] Speaker 2: components inside, but.
[14:37] Speaker 3: Maybe but something that an extra you know, one hundred
[14:41] Speaker 3: and fifty to three hundred thousand dollars would make up
[14:44] Speaker 3: for maybe.
[14:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, good bye two of them.
[14:49] Speaker 3: By the way, quick, just my quick take on the
[14:51] Speaker 3: GLS right my box or not? And Mercedes are not
[14:55] Speaker 3: in my opinion, any three to row suv that it's
[14:58] Speaker 3: not body on frame truck. Forget about it. Like we
[15:04] Speaker 3: have a GLS, I know you do, and I wish
[15:07] Speaker 3: I had a Tahoe. You know a friend of mine
[15:09] Speaker 3: has an X seven. Uh, he wishes he had a Yukon.
[15:14] Speaker 3: The same is true when Audi comes out of the
[15:15] Speaker 3: Q nine, like if it's not a body on frame
[15:18] Speaker 3: truck and it's not like Kia EV nine, like it's
[15:24] Speaker 3: for me, it's a miss that is too big for
[15:27] Speaker 3: a unibody vehicle.
[15:29] Speaker 2: And you're saying that because of oh, sorry you can
[15:32] Speaker 2: I don't know if you can hear that horn or not.
[15:34] Speaker 2: You're saying that because of the way the car behaves
[15:37] Speaker 2: in motion.
[15:38] Speaker 3: No, because a hell on American roads and the suspension
[15:43] Speaker 3: just cannot handle it. They're just not heavy duty enough
[15:46] Speaker 3: to drive around the northeast of the decrepit United States
[15:50] Speaker 3: of America Highway system and that for that you need
[15:54] Speaker 3: a Tahoe or a Yukon or an expedition if you're
[15:58] Speaker 3: willing to forego a v which I don't know why
[16:01] Speaker 3: you would be in that size vehicle, although you know
[16:04] Speaker 3: I love the Nissan Armada. By the way, quick note
[16:06] Speaker 3: on audio. Throughout this interview with Kevin Tynan, you're gonna
[16:11] Speaker 3: hear some grunting, maybe some whining a little.
[16:17] Speaker 2: It's not are you saying that? Wasn't you?
[16:19] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[16:20] Speaker 3: No, I'm holding my twenty seven day old baby because
[16:25] Speaker 3: my wife, who's been up all night feeding him, is
[16:27] Speaker 3: now recovering some sleep, and I am on daddy duty.
[16:30] Speaker 3: I'm actually on paternity leave for the next like five months.
[16:34] Speaker 2: So we're so happy for you.
[16:37] Speaker 3: As Freddy is joining the conversation today.
[16:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Freddy's first appearance appearance, not his last
[16:43] Speaker 2: by any means, and he's been he's added some wonderful
[16:47] Speaker 2: grunts and.
[16:48] Speaker 3: He's cooing a little bit. All right, Without any further ado,
[16:52] Speaker 3: let's get to Kevin Tynan, formerly of Bloomberg Intelligence, now
[16:57] Speaker 3: at the Presidio Group. That the reason, Kevin, that that
[17:02] Speaker 3: Hannah and I both were thinking about having you is
[17:04] Speaker 3: because we're hearing about so much upheaval in the automotive industry,
[17:09] Speaker 3: and specifically because I've lived in Germany for ten years,
[17:12] Speaker 3: I'm getting so many messages from friends who are terrified
[17:15] Speaker 3: about the state of the industry and the economy there.
[17:18] Speaker 3: Folkswagen wanted to fire fifty thousand people, now maybe it's
[17:21] Speaker 3: one hundred thousand people that they want to fire. They're
[17:24] Speaker 3: talking about closing down factories all over the country. And
[17:27] Speaker 3: it's harder for them, obviously because they have so much
[17:29] Speaker 3: union control and so much government control. But how bad
[17:33] Speaker 3: is it especially for Folkswagen.
[17:36] Speaker 1: Well, look, you know, if you ask me, I think
[17:40] Speaker 1: Europe has a China problem. Right. If you're gonna just
[17:45] Speaker 1: import Chinese vehicles, this is what you get, right. It's
[17:51] Speaker 1: for manufacturers, that's a zero sum game. And not only
[17:55] Speaker 1: are you now unable to sell right like that, that's
[18:00] Speaker 1: jobs specifically, And when you look at how quickly Chinese
[18:05] Speaker 1: manufacturers have taken market share in Europe, it's amazing, it's
[18:11] Speaker 1: actually terrifying. So you understand that what we're facing here
[18:17] Speaker 1: in the US is a similar story. Right, It's like, well,
[18:20] Speaker 1: cheap appliances or jobs because we're not just like Europe.
[18:25] Speaker 1: We're not low cost manufacturing countries or regions, so we
[18:30] Speaker 1: can't compete on price for a lot of those things.
[18:33] Speaker 1: And I think once that gets in the consumer's mind
[18:37] Speaker 1: of oh, look at this, you know, they don't care
[18:40] Speaker 1: that it's a subsidized vehicle and that it's half the price.
[18:45] Speaker 1: Right to them, it's a better value. And that's costing
[18:49] Speaker 1: your jobs. That's market share, that's just flying out the window.
[18:53] Speaker 1: And it's very difficult to stop it. But Luna, come on.
[18:59] Speaker 3: But know, I mean to me that part of the
[19:02] Speaker 3: problem is Folkswagen was relying on sales in China, so
[19:06] Speaker 3: it's not just about losing markets here in Europe, right,
[19:09] Speaker 3: And for for years or decades they agreed to minority
[19:14] Speaker 3: stakes in jvs where they willingly gave their IP and
[19:18] Speaker 3: their tech to the Chinese. You know, they were essentially
[19:22] Speaker 3: trading control for access. And now it's time to pay
[19:25] Speaker 3: the piper. Like they they they have as much responsibility
[19:31] Speaker 3: in this as the Chinese.
[19:33] Speaker 1: And you know what too, And that's one of the
[19:35] Speaker 1: things that that as you know, a watcher of this space,
[19:40] Speaker 1: and albeit from a different perspective, you know, in this
[19:44] Speaker 1: role that's one of the things about China that is
[19:48] Speaker 1: scary is China two point oh China three point zero,
[19:52] Speaker 1: which is to say, come on in, take a minority
[19:55] Speaker 1: stake in this venture. You have access as a manufacturer
[20:00] Speaker 1: to a what twenty five to thirty million unit market, Right,
[20:05] Speaker 1: so when you think about that globally and absorbing costs
[20:08] Speaker 1: like this is great. You just you can just run
[20:11] Speaker 1: the factories here. Meanwhile, once they're ready, and they say,
[20:16] Speaker 1: you know, we can sort of turn off that demand,
[20:19] Speaker 1: row you out whatever rules you want to change, and
[20:23] Speaker 1: you're right. I mean, and I can't believe. And there's
[20:28] Speaker 1: a lot of things that I say, or I say
[20:29] Speaker 1: this a lot about a lot of things. I can't
[20:32] Speaker 1: believe auto manufacturers didn't see that coming, you know, just
[20:38] Speaker 1: like electrification. You know, you can't tell me, well, you
[20:42] Speaker 1: know that Toyota did the math, but you can't tell
[20:45] Speaker 1: me that everybody did the math, and says, China owns
[20:49] Speaker 1: the entire supply chain here, how does this ever become profitable? Right?
[20:54] Speaker 1: If it's not profitable on day one or even close, right,
[20:57] Speaker 1: look at Ford model eve the law loss is there
[21:01] Speaker 1: five billion dollars a years? How does it get profitable
[21:05] Speaker 1: when China controls that supply chain, which is which is
[21:08] Speaker 1: a strategy that's been in place for decades, you know,
[21:11] Speaker 1: controlling the mind, controlling the processing. So I agree with you,
[21:16] Speaker 1: you had to see this coming.
[21:18] Speaker 2: We're here with Kevin Tynan, the head of research for
[21:21] Speaker 2: the Presidio Group. More with Kevin Tynan. After this, we.
[21:31] Speaker 3: Are back with Kevin Tynan of the Presidio Group, formerly
[21:34] Speaker 3: of Bloomberg Intelligence. Let's get back to our conversation.
[21:38] Speaker 2: When we go back and look at the history of
[21:41] Speaker 2: of this and how this all unfolded. What are what
[21:44] Speaker 2: are historians going to point at and say was the
[21:47] Speaker 2: fatal flaw which led to them not seeing this coming?
[21:53] Speaker 2: How how could they miss this?
[21:55] Speaker 1: So, yeah, this probably would be and out unpopular way
[22:00] Speaker 1: to put it. But right, so you go back to
[22:04] Speaker 1: the diesel cheating scandal. Right, and as a global manufacturer,
[22:12] Speaker 1: which a lot of those German companies are and were
[22:16] Speaker 1: and will continue to be, right, you want to share
[22:19] Speaker 1: as much technology platforms parts as possible. Right, That's the
[22:25] Speaker 1: point of being global. But when you understand that the
[22:29] Speaker 1: demand profile and all these regions is very different. Right,
[22:32] Speaker 1: we drive big trucks here that just doesn't work in Europe,
[22:35] Speaker 1: it doesn't work in a lot of parts of the world,
[22:36] Speaker 1: probably other than here. So when you think about the
[22:40] Speaker 1: diesel scandal, I think there's this sort of light bulb
[22:44] Speaker 1: that goes off for European manufacturers, German especially, that says, Okay,
[22:49] Speaker 1: maybe diesel's not the way forward, and if it's not
[22:52] Speaker 1: the way forward in Europe, well then it's not going
[22:56] Speaker 1: to be the way forward in the US. And we
[22:58] Speaker 1: always sort of push back on dieseline. I know, people
[23:00] Speaker 1: love diesel, but it was never it was never a
[23:03] Speaker 1: high volume. It was a.
[23:07] Speaker 3: Diesel, you know, right, it.
[23:09] Speaker 1: Wasn't you know, it was it was niche. Right, So
[23:12] Speaker 1: now you say, okay, like, let's face the reality that
[23:16] Speaker 1: that diesel is not going to be our way forward.
[23:18] Speaker 1: And then you get the cheating scandal, and then it's like, okay,
[23:22] Speaker 1: now we have to be environmentally responsible and you know,
[23:27] Speaker 1: and do what we need to do. So now you
[23:29] Speaker 1: sort of invite electrification and you say, hey, look we're
[23:33] Speaker 1: going one hundred percent EV and then there's China waiting
[23:37] Speaker 1: by the phone, going, you know, funny that you should
[23:39] Speaker 1: mention that because we've accumulated all the assets and and
[23:43] Speaker 1: the and created the supply chain, and we can do
[23:46] Speaker 1: it cheaper than anybody. We can get you EV's you know,
[23:50] Speaker 1: all day, every day. And when you just let them
[23:53] Speaker 1: export to you and you import those products again, that's
[23:57] Speaker 1: that's zero sum. That's one proble. What you bring in
[24:00] Speaker 1: is one you don't build and sell in your own country.
[24:03] Speaker 1: And then that snowballs. Once that Pandora's box is open,
[24:07] Speaker 1: that foot is in the door, it's hard to reverse it.
[24:10] Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what in hindsight it will
[24:14] Speaker 1: look like, is that.
[24:16] Speaker 3: Is that then, I mean, no problem for US manufacturers
[24:20] Speaker 3: in the sense that Americans for the most part aren't
[24:24] Speaker 3: really buying evs and we're not allowing Chinese imports.
[24:27] Speaker 1: Right. But but then what do you hear? You hear
[24:30] Speaker 1: you know what I called we're getting technology shamed. And
[24:34] Speaker 1: I don't know if that's you know, the narrative that's
[24:36] Speaker 1: coming out of China or or from our own country,
[24:39] Speaker 1: which says like, oh, we're falling behind because we don't
[24:43] Speaker 1: do evs as well or to the volume that China
[24:47] Speaker 1: does them, you know. And my my response is, well,
[24:51] Speaker 1: we don't have to. We do We do pickup trucks
[24:54] Speaker 1: better than everybody else. Now, what's what's going to happen though,
[24:57] Speaker 1: and what the side of the that argument is that? Okay, well,
[25:01] Speaker 1: now look at China exports. They are vehicle exports, right,
[25:05] Speaker 1: one point one million exports in June alone, Right, so
[25:09] Speaker 1: a twelve million unit a year run rate just on exports,
[25:13] Speaker 1: never mind their own domestic market. And then look at
[25:17] Speaker 1: the size of the total global auto it's seventy million vehicles,
[25:23] Speaker 1: ninety ninety five if you include commercial stuff. So they're
[25:27] Speaker 1: already exported a large part of the world's vehicles. That
[25:34] Speaker 1: we're not going to undo that by standing and going
[25:36] Speaker 1: toe to toe, like I think Bill Ford just came
[25:39] Speaker 1: out and talked about going toe to toe. And you know,
[25:41] Speaker 1: as I'm traveling around and talking to dealers and I
[25:45] Speaker 1: see other speakers and this this idea of going toe
[25:49] Speaker 1: to toe with China, you understand that fight, especially on
[25:52] Speaker 1: EV is already over right. This is not oh, we
[25:56] Speaker 1: stand toe totel. We're not going to take back those
[26:01] Speaker 1: China export markets, right, If they're exporting twelve million units
[26:06] Speaker 1: a year and growing, we're not going to win that
[26:11] Speaker 1: market back because we're not a low cost manufacturer, because
[26:15] Speaker 1: we don't control the supply chain, right. So again, to me,
[26:20] Speaker 1: the best thing that US manufacturers could do is, you know,
[26:25] Speaker 1: and if it means joining up with the European manufacturers
[26:28] Speaker 1: in South Korea and you know, other Asia manufacturers saying like, hey, look,
[26:34] Speaker 1: you've won the EV battle. We're going to the next technology.
[26:38] Speaker 1: Whatever that is. Whether that's better internal combustion, whether that's hybridization,
[26:42] Speaker 1: whether that's hydrogen, I don't know, whatever it is, but
[26:46] Speaker 1: understand that the export and the EV fight, China's already won. Wow,
[26:53] Speaker 1: And I think one of the dumbest thing we could
[26:54] Speaker 1: do is to go, yeah, we'll stand here toe to
[26:56] Speaker 1: toe with you, right, because you know, and it's not Let.
[27:01] Speaker 2: Me ask you, Kevin, when you say you're basically saying
[27:04] Speaker 2: like the American EV has been crushed, which I think
[27:07] Speaker 2: was a headline that we saw from that New York
[27:11] Speaker 2: Times piece a few days ago. In your mind, does
[27:14] Speaker 2: that also include pure play EV makers in America like
[27:20] Speaker 2: Tesla Lucid Rivian or are they in a separate category
[27:26] Speaker 2: when you're talking about going toe to toe and we
[27:28] Speaker 2: shouldn't we're not doing that.
[27:30] Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, is I I'm my second question
[27:36] Speaker 1: is always well, what is your definition of winning? Right?
[27:41] Speaker 1: And so you say, like, okay, is losing money right
[27:46] Speaker 1: for Ford modeling? Or look at Lucid. Lucid it's like
[27:50] Speaker 1: at its bill of goods, at its gross profit line
[27:53] Speaker 1: is like one hundred thousand dollars per vehicle upside down,
[27:59] Speaker 1: so you know, and Ribbean's closer, but still you know,
[28:02] Speaker 1: no operating profit there. So you say like, well, what
[28:05] Speaker 1: would and you know Tesla's profitability and you saw it
[28:10] Speaker 1: the other day, you know, and I would argue, is
[28:13] Speaker 1: not on the on the automotive side, is not anywhere
[28:16] Speaker 1: near certainly what it used to be or even what
[28:20] Speaker 1: it used to be reported as you know, because if
[28:24] Speaker 1: you look at what every other automaker does on the
[28:26] Speaker 1: P and L in terms of profitability, I can't believe
[28:29] Speaker 1: Tesla is that different at the end of the day,
[28:31] Speaker 1: right if you really, if you really got into the numbers.
[28:35] Speaker 1: So that said, you know, what is winning is winning
[28:39] Speaker 1: purposely losing money. And that's and that's part of the
[28:42] Speaker 1: issue too. And and it's not that Chinese manufacturers are
[28:46] Speaker 1: that much more profitable. You know, if there's one hundred
[28:49] Speaker 1: and fifty manufacturers in China, you know, a handful are profitable,
[28:54] Speaker 1: and and and the point of that is that because
[28:57] Speaker 1: it's not automaker versus automaker, it's automaker versus automaker plus
[29:02] Speaker 1: China's balance sheet, China government balance sheet, and it's just
[29:05] Speaker 1: not a fair fight. So the China the US ev
[29:11] Speaker 1: getting crushed. I'm saying like, well, if you can't make
[29:14] Speaker 1: money doing it, and you know I've said this for years, right,
[29:17] Speaker 1: if you can't make money doing it, you're not going
[29:19] Speaker 1: to want to do it. And that was who's argument? Right?
[29:22] Speaker 3: And no way, Kevin? Why does I mean with Tesla,
[29:26] Speaker 3: Elon wants to have another business or many other businesses
[29:29] Speaker 3: and it's not valued as a carmaker anyway. With Rivian
[29:34] Speaker 3: you say, maybe they're closer to not losing one hundred
[29:36] Speaker 3: thousand dollars per car. With Lucid, why bother? What's what's
[29:42] Speaker 3: the point? Who's who says like, ah, we should continue this?
[29:46] Speaker 3: Maybe he light at the end of the tunnel, or.
[29:48] Speaker 1: Well, Saudi Money says let's continue this. But well, I
[29:51] Speaker 1: think I think a big factor of it was when
[29:56] Speaker 1: you go back in time and this happened. Even this,
[29:59] Speaker 1: you can make this argument for why Ford did what
[30:01] Speaker 1: it did. What GM did, which is to say, when
[30:04] Speaker 1: you look across the room and there's Tesla worth a
[30:08] Speaker 1: trillion dollars for doing things you know you can do. Also,
[30:12] Speaker 1: you're not sure that the profitability is there, right because
[30:16] Speaker 1: you've done that math and you go like, I don't
[30:17] Speaker 1: see it, but but he's worth a trillion dollars, right,
[30:21] Speaker 1: His money losing automaker is worth a trillion dollars. Maybe
[30:26] Speaker 1: we get there, or we have access to capital that
[30:28] Speaker 1: somehow gets us there, but the math just didn't work right.
[30:33] Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying is Toyota did the same
[30:35] Speaker 1: math and said we don't get it. They're the one.
[30:38] Speaker 1: They're the ones who's stuck, stuck by their analysis and said,
[30:42] Speaker 1: you know we and they remember they were vilified for that,
[30:44] Speaker 1: like oh you're a dinosaur, and now they're the smartest guys. Right,
[30:48] Speaker 1: So there was that valuation component of it, right. So
[30:53] Speaker 1: if Mary Bara Jim Farley can take four GM from
[30:58] Speaker 1: forty billion dollars market cap to one hundred and forty
[31:03] Speaker 1: billion market cap even on a money losing business model, right,
[31:08] Speaker 1: that's that's still value to them, right, And then you
[31:11] Speaker 1: hope that the day comes where where you can get
[31:14] Speaker 1: profitable in it. But it doesn't look like that day
[31:17] Speaker 1: is coming. In fact, it seems like they've they've accepted
[31:21] Speaker 1: that that day isn't coming by writing down those assets.
[31:23] Speaker 3: Dude, Can we get back to the German automakers, because
[31:26] Speaker 3: I really want to understand what's happening there, And obviously
[31:30] Speaker 3: you cover the entire industry globally, but you have, like
[31:34] Speaker 3: many of us, a love for a particular German brand
[31:38] Speaker 3: and motors that they aren't going to be making anymore. Mercedes,
[31:42] Speaker 3: you have like a at least one V twelve there right, so,
[31:47] Speaker 3: and Lauria, you do you have like an SL sixty
[31:50] Speaker 3: five and a sixty three or something.
[31:52] Speaker 1: No, I have an older six hundred, so I have
[31:54] Speaker 1: the naturally aspirated V twelve, the R one twenty nine
[31:58] Speaker 1: platform which ended in two thousand and two. I also
[32:02] Speaker 1: have that car in the V eight, the silver Arrow edition,
[32:05] Speaker 1: the last one they made. And then and then I
[32:08] Speaker 1: have an m L fifty five, a MG so the
[32:11] Speaker 1: little knock around truck with the naturally aspirated five point
[32:16] Speaker 1: five leader there and they're when they work there, unbelievable.
[32:22] Speaker 3: But Mercedes as I as far as I understand it.
[32:25] Speaker 3: Mercedes is doing better than Volkswagen in this crisis, and
[32:30] Speaker 3: BMW is doing better than both of them. Is that fair?
[32:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, I BMW's announced some things, but but yeah, that
[32:42] Speaker 1: that's fair. And I and I think you know when
[32:46] Speaker 1: you look at BMW and the component of that is
[32:50] Speaker 1: obviously heavy, BMW rolls Royce, Mercedes right, different different client
[32:57] Speaker 1: tele right, and then within Volkswagen, the competitor would be Audi,
[33:04] Speaker 1: which has really moved down market, especially here in the US.
[33:08] Speaker 1: When you look at transaction prices of BMW and Mercedes
[33:12] Speaker 1: in the high seventies heading towards this is the average
[33:16] Speaker 1: high seventies towards eighty thousand, and then you look at
[33:19] Speaker 1: Audis in the sixties, you know, low to mid sixties.
[33:23] Speaker 1: So I get the point of finding open clear air
[33:28] Speaker 1: to operate in and not going head to head with
[33:30] Speaker 1: BMW and Mercedes. But I think it's hurt the brand.
[33:34] Speaker 1: It's sort of it made it not look competitive to
[33:37] Speaker 1: the other two. But look at the end of the day,
[33:40] Speaker 1: you said it in your first question, which is you're
[33:42] Speaker 1: dealing with the unions. It's hard to take costs out.
[33:46] Speaker 1: So when your market share regionally globally is declining quickly,
[33:52] Speaker 1: and you can't right size your enterprise by getting costs
[33:56] Speaker 1: out of the system. Whether it's capacity, whether it's head account,
[34:00] Speaker 1: whatever it is, you're going to have a problem. And
[34:03] Speaker 1: that's what that's what the European manufacturers are facing now
[34:08] Speaker 1: is do we continue to lose market share? And if
[34:11] Speaker 1: we do, can we get costs out quick enough which
[34:14] Speaker 1: usually you cannot or you have to find somewhere to
[34:18] Speaker 1: go to rebuild that revenue somehow.
[34:22] Speaker 2: How how serious is this movement in the US to
[34:27] Speaker 2: expel companies with I think is it fifteen percent Chinese ownership?
[34:32] Speaker 2: How serious a thread is that? I know Mercedes is
[34:35] Speaker 2: fighting against it, We had a piece on them. Is
[34:40] Speaker 2: that a serious threat? And I asked also in light
[34:42] Speaker 2: of what happened with Pollstar, how you know could that
[34:48] Speaker 2: actually happen to Mercedes as well?
[34:50] Speaker 1: It's a long tail on that. I think the number
[34:53] Speaker 1: what's twenty by twenty thirty, which I guess is not
[34:55] Speaker 1: that far away, probably be here before we know it,
[34:58] Speaker 1: you know, And maybe if that goes a couple of years,
[35:00] Speaker 1: gets pushed out a little bit further. I don't think
[35:02] Speaker 1: it would go as far as hey.
[35:05] Speaker 3: What's the what's the number? Twenty percent ownership by twenty
[35:07] Speaker 3: thirty right and right now mercecial provision. Right now, Jillie
[35:14] Speaker 3: owns like ten percent of Mercedes fifteen.
[35:17] Speaker 2: I think they're at fifteen, right, combined with Glie and
[35:21] Speaker 2: private ownership.
[35:22] Speaker 1: Right, So it would be you would you have you know,
[35:25] Speaker 1: three four and if it's becomes twenty thirty two, I
[35:29] Speaker 1: don't think it becomes twenty thirty five. But basically, you know,
[35:32] Speaker 1: you divest them, you know those those Okay, so.
[35:35] Speaker 2: They get it adjust basically.
[35:37] Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if it's China that says we're
[35:41] Speaker 1: not giving up our steake, but I guess you would
[35:43] Speaker 1: have to.
[35:44] Speaker 3: But but Kevin, in trying to understand the problem with VW,
[35:50] Speaker 3: Mercedes and BMW and how bad each of these German
[35:53] Speaker 3: companies is impacted, it's pretty apparent that BMW, which is
[35:59] Speaker 3: doing the bad, produces a hell of a lot of
[36:02] Speaker 3: vehicles here in the US, and Mercedes mercedesuces some. Right,
[36:07] Speaker 3: the MW has in Carolina, Mercedes has in Alabama, and
[36:11] Speaker 3: Volkswagen has like none. Okay, they have a Chattanooga plant,
[36:14] Speaker 3: but no one buys Volkswagen brand cars because they don't
[36:17] Speaker 3: really have any cool cars. And then Audi and Porsche
[36:21] Speaker 3: obviously are made in Germany for the most people.
[36:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, and that's an interesting point. And I
[36:30] Speaker 1: started to look at this last week before I was traveling.
[36:35] Speaker 1: You know where where the operating profit comes from from
[36:39] Speaker 1: global automakers, right, and and and two examples I usually give.
[36:45] Speaker 1: One is Nissan and the other is Stilantis, which is right.
[36:50] Speaker 1: Think about when it was Fiat Chrysler and Sergiomachioni was
[36:54] Speaker 1: running the company. The presence in North America and the
[36:58] Speaker 1: US specifically was big.
[37:00] Speaker 4: Right.
[37:00] Speaker 1: You always knew who was running the company. You knew
[37:03] Speaker 1: who was in charge. You knew you know, like he
[37:05] Speaker 1: was a he was and this is a very important
[37:08] Speaker 1: market in terms of operating profits.
[37:10] Speaker 3: You were always in Auburn Hills, all the heads.
[37:12] Speaker 1: Of the right, right because because of Jeep Ram and
[37:17] Speaker 1: the money that those those brands made here is very
[37:20] Speaker 1: important to the global enterprise that became Spillanthus, Nissan is
[37:24] Speaker 1: another example. Whatever the situation the politics with Carlos gon
[37:30] Speaker 1: once he's gotten the same thing, right, Like he was
[37:32] Speaker 1: a guy that you knew who the head of Nissan
[37:35] Speaker 1: was in the US in North America for better or
[37:38] Speaker 1: for worse, you know, with with whatever their strategy was.
[37:42] Speaker 1: But really, since then you're kind of looking at that
[37:45] Speaker 1: company and I don't you know, and maybe that leadership
[37:49] Speaker 1: is great, but if it's over in Japan, I feel
[37:53] Speaker 1: like this market loses interests and you really have to
[37:58] Speaker 1: be on top of this market because it is a
[38:02] Speaker 1: truck market and like it or not, you know, that's
[38:05] Speaker 1: where the profit is. So you have you know, you
[38:09] Speaker 1: can have your your Nissan Censors, but at the end
[38:12] Speaker 1: of the day, it's going to be it's going to
[38:14] Speaker 1: be Rogue and Pathfinder and your pickup trucks that that
[38:20] Speaker 1: frontier that make the difference here.
[38:22] Speaker 3: And you can't just forget the Armada my favorite largest
[38:26] Speaker 3: Yeah right, so I love the Armada so much.
[38:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, I just saw I was walking in Atlanta the
[38:34] Speaker 1: other day, so what is it like the QX eighty
[38:36] Speaker 1: and fifty enormous. But the point is is that you
[38:42] Speaker 1: had visible leadership, you had vocal leadership in in the
[38:47] Speaker 1: US and it's a big contributor to the profitability of
[38:51] Speaker 1: those firms. And when that went away, I feel like
[38:53] Speaker 1: those brands really slipped and have to get back to that.
[38:58] Speaker 2: I want to go back to Mercedes for a second,
[39:00] Speaker 2: because this AMGGT four door that they've come out with,
[39:05] Speaker 2: which is the electric sedan with the fabricated V eight sound,
[39:10] Speaker 2: is so polarizing. And Kevin, what like, we're talking about
[39:17] Speaker 2: the strength and the merits of Mercedes. What does a
[39:20] Speaker 2: vehicle like that do to the company? Potentially? Is it
[39:27] Speaker 2: a non issue because it's just gonna be here and
[39:30] Speaker 2: then go away? Because no one?
[39:32] Speaker 3: Do you see that real I sent you the other
[39:34] Speaker 3: day on Instagram?
[39:36] Speaker 2: Yes I did.
[39:37] Speaker 3: There's a parody. Somebody made this parody reel which is AI.
[39:42] Speaker 3: But you have actual Mercedes and AMG execs bragging about
[39:47] Speaker 3: how they've ruined AMG. And I don't think that's the case.
[39:51] Speaker 3: Hannah and I both love you.
[39:52] Speaker 2: This is this is why I'm asking Kevin, let's get
[39:54] Speaker 2: some actual adult in the room, because you know, if
[39:59] Speaker 2: people hate it, but the executives, of course say it's
[40:02] Speaker 2: a game changer, et cetera, et cetera. I am going
[40:04] Speaker 2: to drive at this fall, so I'm looking forward to it.
[40:06] Speaker 2: So give us a prep.
[40:08] Speaker 1: Well. I think one of the things that's important is
[40:12] Speaker 1: is and you know my view is this is a
[40:15] Speaker 1: push industry. The manufacturer's going to do what's good for them,
[40:18] Speaker 1: what makes them, what makes them profitable. But I understand
[40:22] Speaker 1: the value of meeting the customer where they are, right, So,
[40:27] Speaker 1: but that means there has to be choice. So you
[40:29] Speaker 1: can do your ev your plug at hybrid, your hybrid
[40:32] Speaker 1: whatever it is. Ag yeah, right, like you know, but
[40:39] Speaker 1: but you got to you got to understand where the
[40:41] Speaker 1: money is made, right and and and as long as
[40:45] Speaker 1: they're doing that to go only EQ war electric, right,
[40:52] Speaker 1: I think is the mistake. Is My point is that
[40:55] Speaker 1: you know, as my wife, my lovely wife often says, look,
[40:59] Speaker 1: there's an ass every seat, and and that's and that's true, right,
[41:03] Speaker 1: But but I think when you start limiting the choice
[41:06] Speaker 1: of the consumer because of profitability of because the government
[41:13] Speaker 1: is telling you you have to move to one technology
[41:15] Speaker 1: over another, I think that's where you run into a problem.
[41:18] Speaker 1: I think Mercedes, and I know, and and I was
[41:22] Speaker 1: just saying, like, we spend time with Adam Chamberlain at
[41:25] Speaker 1: our conference in in May, and like he gets it.
[41:28] Speaker 1: He's a car guy. He's showing me, you know, pictures
[41:31] Speaker 1: on his phone of his little go to sl that
[41:33] Speaker 1: he's having restored. And I like ad yeah, like and
[41:37] Speaker 1: he gets.
[41:38] Speaker 2: It eeo of Mercedes spends USA, we should say for listeners,
[41:42] Speaker 2: right right right yeah.
[41:44] Speaker 4: So so so as long as that sort of passion
[41:49] Speaker 4: is built into the brand, I think it'll be Okay,
[41:52] Speaker 4: there's go there's going to be compliance cars, there's going
[41:55] Speaker 4: to be missions, fuel economy mandates.
[41:58] Speaker 1: I mean, look at Ferrari. I mean that's what that is.
[42:02] Speaker 1: There's things you have to do so that you can
[42:05] Speaker 1: do the other things that you want to do or
[42:07] Speaker 1: the very profitable things. And that's just the price of
[42:11] Speaker 1: doing business.
[42:12] Speaker 3: Kevin, how badly has do you think the luce has
[42:16] Speaker 3: hurt Ferrari more than you would have expected? It seems
[42:19] Speaker 3: the fallout seems pretty severe.
[42:22] Speaker 1: It did. But you know, in the scheme of things,
[42:26] Speaker 1: what's it going to be. You sell a handful of
[42:28] Speaker 1: good clients and you promise them a fire breather down
[42:30] Speaker 1: the road, right So now, And I don't know, I
[42:34] Speaker 1: didn't do the sort of research and analysis on this,
[42:38] Speaker 1: but you know there's probably some sort of global volume
[42:45] Speaker 1: sort of regulation that says, look, if you want to
[42:48] Speaker 1: sell this many units, you have to have emissions or
[42:52] Speaker 1: reduction or fuel economy level around here and this is
[42:57] Speaker 1: the compliance car that gets you there is what This
[43:01] Speaker 1: is the Chevrolet bolt that lets you sell Silverado's all
[43:04] Speaker 1: day long.
[43:05] Speaker 2: Right.
[43:05] Speaker 1: So, so you build a handful of them, you get
[43:09] Speaker 1: your good clients to buy them, and now you're free
[43:11] Speaker 1: to do the things that you want to do, which
[43:14] Speaker 1: is my point. And until we get you know, governments
[43:19] Speaker 1: around the world that step out of the industry and
[43:22] Speaker 1: let you just be what you want to be, fail
[43:26] Speaker 1: or succeed based on what you want to do. That's
[43:28] Speaker 1: what that's the cost of doing business. So I don't
[43:32] Speaker 1: I didn't think. I thought the react it was an
[43:36] Speaker 1: overreaction to that. I understood what it was. Would I
[43:40] Speaker 1: have made it better looking, probably well, but I understand
[43:44] Speaker 1: what it means.
[43:45] Speaker 3: It's interesting that the reaction just continues to live and
[43:47] Speaker 3: maybe that's an online you know, amplification. But I want
[43:52] Speaker 3: to just I want to get back to Mercedes, Kevin.
[43:54] Speaker 3: I want to get back to Mercedes because because you're
[43:57] Speaker 3: a fan, because Hannah and I are fans also of
[43:59] Speaker 3: actually the amg GT sixty three. I'm currently in the
[44:04] Speaker 3: AMGGT sixty three Pro, which is like their I guess
[44:09] Speaker 3: GT three version of the car. Because they take out
[44:12] Speaker 3: five hundred pounds by removing the hybrid pieces. But the
[44:16] Speaker 3: I also have driven the se Performance version, which is
[44:19] Speaker 3: like eight hundred plus horse power a thousand plus pounds
[44:22] Speaker 3: feed of torque. It's insanely good. Yeah, And I've recently
[44:27] Speaker 3: noticed because I'm always hunting for older amggts and hoping
[44:32] Speaker 3: that they'll fall in price, they're not falling in price.
[44:36] Speaker 1: It's true.
[44:36] Speaker 3: With the X S sixty five and the SL sixty five,
[44:39] Speaker 3: I keep hoping they're gonna depreciate more, and they're not depreciating.
[44:44] Speaker 1: I know. And look, I think that speaks a lot
[44:47] Speaker 1: to you know, and maybe it's niche in this country,
[44:53] Speaker 1: but you know, people will pay for the for the
[44:56] Speaker 1: fire breathers. I mean, I thought it was an interesting
[44:59] Speaker 1: move when you know, Dodge kills SRT, scat packs, hellcats,
[45:06] Speaker 1: demons to make an electric daytona thing. But the fact
[45:12] Speaker 1: that they're making them as ridiculous and I'm talking about
[45:14] Speaker 1: Mercedes as ridiculous as they are for the everyday driver,
[45:20] Speaker 1: to me again, like that's sort of the point, and
[45:24] Speaker 1: it shows that they understand that there's a consumer there
[45:28] Speaker 1: for that product. And then you have to kind of
[45:31] Speaker 1: accept that every once in a while, you or more
[45:34] Speaker 1: than every once in a while, but you have to
[45:36] Speaker 1: do you have to do the compliance vehicle to be
[45:39] Speaker 1: able to hit certain regulatory targets that enable you to
[45:43] Speaker 1: do the things that your brand is passionate about. And
[45:48] Speaker 1: you know, I don't expect the consumer or media to
[45:51] Speaker 1: necessarily understand that or like it, but it's just it's
[45:54] Speaker 1: just the realities of doing business in the United States
[45:57] Speaker 1: so or in Europe too.
[45:58] Speaker 3: But on that point, Hannah, let me just mention, we're
[46:05] Speaker 3: always bemoaning the death of the manual transmission, and you
[46:10] Speaker 3: and I have talked and will continue to talk a
[46:12] Speaker 3: lot about the BMW cars M cars that we love
[46:16] Speaker 3: for so long, the CS, like the M two c
[46:19] Speaker 3: S doesn't have a manual and the M three CS
[46:23] Speaker 3: never never did. Now the BMW is putting out an
[46:26] Speaker 3: M three CS with three pedals and a stick and
[46:31] Speaker 3: it's US only, which I thought was crazy, Like we're
[46:37] Speaker 3: you know, we always talk about the fact that Europeans
[46:39] Speaker 3: know how to drive standard transmissions, but the BMW is
[46:41] Speaker 3: only selling this han shelter version in the US, which
[46:45] Speaker 3: is which is pretty cool.
[46:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think they just because I you know
[46:50] Speaker 1: my son is involved. There's a four. He had a
[46:56] Speaker 1: manual transmission Z four I think went out of production
[47:01] Speaker 1: or was he? I know he because you know he's
[47:04] Speaker 1: a young guys. He's one of the twenty somethings who
[47:07] Speaker 1: can actually drive a manual transmission daily. And uh and
[47:13] Speaker 1: he wanted to get another one. And I guess whether
[47:15] Speaker 1: it wasn't in the program or anymore or whatever happened,
[47:18] Speaker 1: but it was. It was just a point. So now
[47:19] Speaker 1: we're in the market looking for something with that we
[47:23] Speaker 1: can peddle ourselves.
[47:24] Speaker 3: The Z four is a great used purchase. So is
[47:27] Speaker 3: a base M two and there, I mean a Z
[47:31] Speaker 3: four in green rag green rag top with a stick
[47:35] Speaker 3: is such a dream?
[47:36] Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. His was purple with a white interior
[47:41] Speaker 1: and black top.
[47:42] Speaker 3: His hist approve of that color combination.
[47:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very nice. His his X six, uh
[47:49] Speaker 1: X sixty or whatever it is is is that green
[47:52] Speaker 1: color now very cool truck too.
[47:55] Speaker 2: So Kevin, do you do you think even in America,
[48:00] Speaker 2: EV's ultimately are still the future, because you know, everyone
[48:07] Speaker 2: in quotes says they still are. It's taking longer than
[48:11] Speaker 2: we thought, but they are still the future. And if
[48:15] Speaker 2: and if that's the case considering what you said before,
[48:19] Speaker 2: which is China has already won EV's Yeah, what does
[48:23] Speaker 2: that mean for us?
[48:25] Speaker 1: Yeah? I look, here's here's the thing. And you know,
[48:28] Speaker 1: I've talked about this since I was a child, which is,
[48:35] Speaker 1: first of all, manufacturers and dealerships will sell anything that
[48:42] Speaker 1: makes them money, right, you can, They'll sell you a
[48:45] Speaker 1: bag of sands, right if they can make money on it.
[48:48] Speaker 1: So this idea that automakers don't want to do it,
[48:51] Speaker 1: or dealers don't want to sell them, or it's it's
[48:55] Speaker 1: just it's it's about profitability.
[48:58] Speaker 2: The purpose of karkampanies is to make money. This is what.
[49:04] Speaker 1: Yes about making causes about making money. So if I'm
[49:08] Speaker 1: working backwards from that, to me, that's that's the argument,
[49:14] Speaker 1: which is to say, well, we don't control the mining,
[49:19] Speaker 1: we don't control the materials processing. We're way behind on that.
[49:25] Speaker 1: Do we develop our own supply chains? We're not going
[49:27] Speaker 1: to mine here. I can tell you that. Do we
[49:32] Speaker 1: get to the point where it becomes cost efficient enough
[49:37] Speaker 1: for us to be profitable on EV? If so, yes,
[49:41] Speaker 1: it's the future. Are we so far away from profitability
[49:46] Speaker 1: on EV because we don't control any of that supply
[49:49] Speaker 1: chain or just you know, the the dynamics of the
[49:53] Speaker 1: cost inputs of that technology will never make economic sense.
[49:57] Speaker 1: Then I would say then no, we're not going to
[50:00] Speaker 1: have eeds here. And at the.
[50:03] Speaker 2: Point when when Chinese made vehicles would be sold in
[50:06] Speaker 2: the US.
[50:09] Speaker 3: Well.
[50:11] Speaker 1: Again, and I think that they could do that with
[50:14] Speaker 1: almost any technology because it's subsidized. So if now you
[50:19] Speaker 1: have to understand right what they China doesn't want to
[50:22] Speaker 1: be dependent on for and oil. They've accumulated the electricity
[50:27] Speaker 1: assets they are, so it made sense for their for
[50:33] Speaker 1: what they've built and their long view of it to
[50:36] Speaker 1: be electric, to make their transportation electric, their generation electric,
[50:43] Speaker 1: and it and you understand that they want the world
[50:47] Speaker 1: dependent on China and them not dependent on anything. So
[50:50] Speaker 1: it's this great capacity uh supply chains to go in
[50:57] Speaker 1: that direction. And now essentially the job is convince the
[51:01] Speaker 1: rest of the world that this is the direction that
[51:04] Speaker 1: you all need to go. And that's what I called
[51:05] Speaker 1: it technology shaming. Before, well, it makes sense for you
[51:08] Speaker 1: to go electric, China, and now you've convinced Europe and
[51:12] Speaker 1: Australia that you need to go electric. And you know,
[51:15] Speaker 1: whether that's the argument of you know, it's an ESG
[51:19] Speaker 1: argument or whatever it winds up being, but it seems
[51:22] Speaker 1: like the evidence in terms of market share, the evidence
[51:27] Speaker 1: is that if you buy into that and go electric,
[51:29] Speaker 1: you give your your manufacturing industry to China. Now keep
[51:36] Speaker 1: in mind, also, and I've been saying this, there probably
[51:39] Speaker 1: will be an administration, maybe the next one, that says, hay, China,
[51:43] Speaker 1: build your factories in the US, hire the UAW share
[51:47] Speaker 1: your intellectual property, reinvest all your profits here in our country,
[51:53] Speaker 1: build all you want and export, but you can't import anything.
[51:56] Speaker 1: There probably will be an administration that says, look what
[51:59] Speaker 1: I did, I brought.
[51:59] Speaker 3: You Trump already Trump has already said that He's like,
[52:02] Speaker 3: I'm fine with the Chinese that they build their factories here.
[52:04] Speaker 1: But that changes the cost dynamics for them also, Right,
[52:08] Speaker 1: so now they're not this low cost manufacturing in China
[52:12] Speaker 1: and then dumping vehicles all over the world. It changes
[52:17] Speaker 1: that dynamic a little bit.
[52:18] Speaker 3: Not that they can steal whatever ip they haven't yet taken, right.
[52:22] Speaker 1: Basic, right, right, But the endman is toe to toe
[52:26] Speaker 1: and we'll steal we'll steal it back, you know which
[52:29] Speaker 1: we Well.
[52:29] Speaker 3: You're not going electric, Kevin, and neither me, Hannah.
[52:33] Speaker 1: So, and again I'm not I'm not anti anything, right.
[52:37] Speaker 2: I love I love the Electric five hundred are.
[52:41] Speaker 1: If it has wheels, I love it. I'm just saying
[52:45] Speaker 1: from a financial analyst perspective, it just doesn't make sense.
[52:51] Speaker 1: And I and I understand that there's there's not a
[52:54] Speaker 1: whole lot of things that I would want to drive.
[52:56] Speaker 1: But that's because you don't as a manufacturer. You don't
[53:01] Speaker 1: want to accidentally sell a lot of something that you're
[53:04] Speaker 1: losing money on. It's the opposite point. It's why we
[53:08] Speaker 1: don't have great ones here. I think it's why you know,
[53:12] Speaker 1: Chevrolet Bolt, right, Like you look at Chevrolet General Mode
[53:16] Speaker 1: is a good example, right, You look at both and
[53:18] Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's not competitive to Tesla who doesn't
[53:21] Speaker 1: care about profitability, you know, or even looser and Rive
[53:25] Speaker 1: and don't care about profitability. And you're saying, well, both
[53:28] Speaker 1: is uglier than all of those things. And it's like,
[53:30] Speaker 1: you can't tell me that Chevrolet, who makes the C
[53:33] Speaker 1: eight Corvette and has made corvettes for you know, since
[53:36] Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, can't come up with a better design
[53:39] Speaker 1: if they wanted to, if they wanted to sell that product.
[53:42] Speaker 1: And it was important and it was profitable, you would
[53:45] Speaker 1: get an incredible EV. Right, But when you look at
[53:48] Speaker 1: the P and L and you're losing fifteen thousand dollars
[53:51] Speaker 1: a pop and the government isn't making you hold the
[53:54] Speaker 1: way it is in China right BYD was getting forty
[53:57] Speaker 1: four thousand dollars a vehicle in the early day. As
[54:00] Speaker 1: a EV, it's probably about still in the teens across
[54:03] Speaker 1: the board for those manufacturers. We're never going to directly subsidize.
[54:08] Speaker 1: So until you get that, where's my motivation as a
[54:11] Speaker 1: manufacturer to you're forcing me to do unprofitable things?
[54:15] Speaker 3: You would be the Silverado and the Sierra are amazing.
[54:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, even if you're losing money on them, you're
[54:24] Speaker 1: you're able to write. So those are those are again
[54:26] Speaker 1: those can be your compliance vehicles. I understand CAFE and
[54:30] Speaker 1: a mission those regulations are different now, but so and
[54:35] Speaker 1: I would always joke something like Bolt or Silverado EV.
[54:40] Speaker 1: If it were important to hitting some sort of corporate
[54:42] Speaker 1: average fuel economy or emissions target, you would you would
[54:48] Speaker 1: you would put a number on the cubicle of an
[54:50] Speaker 1: intern that says forty thousand units. As soon as that
[54:54] Speaker 1: forty thousand unit is sold, that intern comes running out
[54:57] Speaker 1: of the cubicle, goes to Mary Barr and says, did
[55:00] Speaker 1: it stop selling, issue a recall, whatever you gotta do,
[55:03] Speaker 1: and now go sell all the internal combustion super profitable ones.
[55:07] Speaker 2: And I'd like to say, I'd like to just say,
[55:09] Speaker 2: for the record, there have been many EV's that I've
[55:11] Speaker 2: given positive reviews to. For instance, g Wagon EV I
[55:15] Speaker 2: thought was great, Rolls Royce Specter, also great, Dodge Charger, Daytona,
[55:24] Speaker 2: the Electric I had a lot of fun drag racing.
[55:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, I loved, I love. I lived that car for
[55:31] Speaker 3: a week and absolutely loved it. Taikon, especially the Wagon
[55:34] Speaker 3: version that discontinued. Absolutely loved the BMW I seven I adore.
[55:41] Speaker 1: And what have they been common? What they're probably better?
[55:47] Speaker 3: No, you're right, you're right there. That was a conversation
[55:51] Speaker 3: with Ken Kevin Tynan, which will continue on the other
[55:54] Speaker 3: side of this break. This is we are back with
[56:03] Speaker 3: Kevin Tynan of the Presidio Group formerly of Olberg Intelligence.
[56:08] Speaker 3: Let's get back to our conversation.
[56:10] Speaker 2: So call it for the first half of the year.
[56:12] Speaker 2: Are there any names that come to mind in terms
[56:15] Speaker 2: of brands that you think are beating everyone else or
[56:20] Speaker 2: really doing especially poorly.
[56:23] Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because of the expiration of the federal
[56:27] Speaker 1: tax credit in September of last year, which in a
[56:31] Speaker 1: maybe nuanced way, enabled US or any manufacturer selling in
[56:37] Speaker 1: the US to kind of go back truck, right, And
[56:41] Speaker 1: keep in mind, and when I say truck, I mean everything,
[56:44] Speaker 1: pick ups, crossovers, minivans, whatever. We're eighty four percent of
[56:48] Speaker 1: it's eighty four percent by volume in this country now, right,
[56:52] Speaker 1: So that financial pressure of a compliance money losing ev
[56:59] Speaker 1: or small car was a little bit risk off as
[57:03] Speaker 1: of the end of last year. So what you're seeing
[57:07] Speaker 1: is is, you know, GMC, for example, which is really
[57:11] Speaker 1: good stuff. And I'm talking also from the perspective that
[57:16] Speaker 1: we have at the Presidio Group, which is, you know,
[57:19] Speaker 1: looking at the M and a market, right, dealers really
[57:21] Speaker 1: interested in in GMC and maybe surprisingly, and I don't
[57:27] Speaker 1: mean it's in a bad way, Buick as well, you
[57:30] Speaker 1: know bugs, yeah, I know, right, own guys like us
[57:35] Speaker 1: still think that. But I think what's interesting is by
[57:39] Speaker 1: transaction price, Buick is actually GM's most affordable brand. It's
[57:43] Speaker 1: not Chevrolet anymore, right, because they're not doing big pickups.
[57:47] Speaker 1: So I think that I think that that you know,
[57:50] Speaker 1: average buy er age of might still be any early hundreds.
[57:55] Speaker 1: But but it seems like that sort of rolled over
[57:59] Speaker 1: and you your generation is saying like, hey, I need
[58:02] Speaker 1: something affordable, and this is it's not obviously depressing.
[58:06] Speaker 3: Dude, I gotta say, like, so a GMC is among
[58:09] Speaker 3: my very favorites. If I have, you know, a Yukon
[58:15] Speaker 3: eighty four in the driveway, like I'm making every excuse
[58:18] Speaker 3: to go on an errand right, if I am test
[58:21] Speaker 3: driving a Buick and Vista, it makes me literally depressed
[58:24] Speaker 3: about life.
[58:25] Speaker 1: Right, right, But that that's sort of the that's sort
[58:29] Speaker 1: of the point, right It's it's going to be a
[58:31] Speaker 1: loss leader. But but what you understand, though is if
[58:35] Speaker 1: you take Buick out of that mix, GM's average transaction
[58:40] Speaker 1: price is probably north of sixty thousand dollars. And what
[58:44] Speaker 1: you're doing in that instance, and what has happened over
[58:47] Speaker 1: the years, is that you're basically telling the consumer, we
[58:52] Speaker 1: have nothing for you until you're ready to spend sixty
[58:56] Speaker 1: thousand dollars because we're not going to make a you know,
[59:00] Speaker 1: and you're seeding that market to your you know, mostly
[59:05] Speaker 1: Asia based competitors who can willing to lose money at
[59:11] Speaker 1: sub thirty five or twenty five thousand, or thirty or
[59:14] Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars, because what they're saying is, we
[59:18] Speaker 1: will use this as a loss leader. We but we
[59:21] Speaker 1: think you're going to like the product and the dealership
[59:23] Speaker 1: experience enough that you'll come back. That same argument for
[59:27] Speaker 1: somebody like GM without a buick or you know, the
[59:31] Speaker 1: bottom of the market Ford stuff has gone away. What
[59:34] Speaker 1: you're saying is is that we don't believe in our
[59:37] Speaker 1: sort of customer retention from twenty five to thirty five
[59:41] Speaker 1: to forty five to fifty five where you're profitable. That's
[59:44] Speaker 1: for unprofitable vehicles. We have to sell you hoping you
[59:48] Speaker 1: come back into the money making part of our portfolio.
[59:52] Speaker 3: So, by the way of first of all, GM has
[59:56] Speaker 3: an Asia based product, right, so they can tell you attracts.
[1:00:00] Speaker 3: And by the way, part of the problem is tariffs
[1:00:01] Speaker 3: because it's more expensive for them to produce that kind
[1:00:04] Speaker 3: of vehicle here than it is for them to produce
[1:00:06] Speaker 3: in Korea and import it. They'd rather take a fifteen
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: percent hit. On another note, Kevin, I have to say,
[1:00:11] Speaker 3: so I recently bought twenty twenty BMW M seven sixty.
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: It's the six point six literer of E twelve. I
[1:00:20] Speaker 3: love it. And after I got it, I took it
[1:00:24] Speaker 3: to the BMW place here in port Chester for service.
[1:00:29] Speaker 3: I had them you know, check and test everything from
[1:00:33] Speaker 3: the radiators to the hydraulic you know, the air suspension,
[1:00:37] Speaker 3: like everything, just because I want to keep it forever.
[1:00:40] Speaker 3: And I also hit a pothole on the Wanta Parkway
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: and blew out a tire, so I had to take
[1:00:46] Speaker 3: it to the BMW Dealership and Date in Bayshore, Long
[1:00:49] Speaker 3: Island to replace my tires. All this is a long
[1:00:52] Speaker 3: way of saying I've experienced BMW service and it is
[1:00:57] Speaker 3: next level. It is the dealer The BMW dealership service
[1:01:02] Speaker 3: experience is for me only paralleled by you know, German
[1:01:09] Speaker 3: like when I had my Portiae in Berlin, or when
[1:01:12] Speaker 3: I bought my g Wagon in Stutteguard. Like that's the
[1:01:16] Speaker 3: level of service at these BMW dealerships. I'm so impressed.
[1:01:19] Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, you know, that's one of the things,
[1:01:23] Speaker 1: and it's one of the areas in terms of the
[1:01:25] Speaker 1: dealerships I've been looking at a lot is fixed ops,
[1:01:28] Speaker 1: you know, parts and service. And what I'm starting to
[1:01:32] Speaker 1: believe is that is that the problem there that the
[1:01:36] Speaker 1: consumer has with with franchise dealer service departments is its capacity.
[1:01:46] Speaker 3: Right.
[1:01:46] Speaker 1: It's you know, there's not enough text, there's not enough bays.
[1:01:51] Speaker 1: It's not and it's really not much more expensive when
[1:01:54] Speaker 1: you look at the hourly rate of independent repair shops.
[1:01:59] Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is when you call
[1:02:01] Speaker 1: a service department and they're two and a half three
[1:02:05] Speaker 1: weeks out from an appointment, is a big deal, right,
[1:02:08] Speaker 1: And that's that.
[1:02:09] Speaker 3: Then that took me immediately right well, the way the
[1:02:12] Speaker 3: way the way the tech works on me, I trust him.
[1:02:14] Speaker 3: I don't feel like I'm getting ripped off even though
[1:02:16] Speaker 3: the prices are high, you know, real.
[1:02:18] Speaker 1: They show your V twelve and they probably closed the
[1:02:21] Speaker 1: shop and went home for the for the month because
[1:02:24] Speaker 1: you you just send everybody to college.
[1:02:27] Speaker 3: It's not that bad, it isn't. I mean, it's isn't
[1:02:29] Speaker 3: It isn't cheap, but it's not crazy.
[1:02:31] Speaker 1: Yeah, now, And that's that's one of the things that
[1:02:34] Speaker 1: like I'm saying, is that we we think that because
[1:02:37] Speaker 1: when I look at repair or r counts of customer
[1:02:40] Speaker 1: pay what we would call customer pay of the franchise
[1:02:43] Speaker 1: dealer base, they're flat. But when you look at the
[1:02:47] Speaker 1: value of vehicles, the number of vehicles, the age of vehicles,
[1:02:50] Speaker 1: how much we're traveling, you would think that dealership ros
[1:02:53] Speaker 1: would be going gangbusters through the roof, and they're not.
[1:02:56] Speaker 1: And I think it's a capacity issue, because I don't
[1:02:59] Speaker 1: think it's to your point. I don't think it's an
[1:03:01] Speaker 1: hourly rate issue either, because it's not that much worse
[1:03:04] Speaker 1: than what you would get at a BMW specialist, you know,
[1:03:09] Speaker 1: in Great Neck or wherever you wound up. Being so
[1:03:12] Speaker 1: interesting dynamic happening in the franchise base in terms of
[1:03:15] Speaker 1: parts and service. But yeah, for us guys with V twelve,
[1:03:21] Speaker 1: that's a it's a little scary. I'm wrestling with mine
[1:03:24] Speaker 1: with an obscure engine code right now, but it's a
[1:03:29] Speaker 1: little bit older.
[1:03:30] Speaker 3: Dude. I don't want to keep you for the entire afternoon,
[1:03:34] Speaker 3: like I do, still have a million questions, but I'll
[1:03:36] Speaker 3: just I'm going to come over something that.
[1:03:38] Speaker 1: Yeah, stop, I let me know when you're in town.
[1:03:40] Speaker 1: We'll go. We'll go for a rip. I got a
[1:03:43] Speaker 1: good I got a good little windy road on the
[1:03:45] Speaker 1: river here that we that it was funny during COVID
[1:03:51] Speaker 1: we're all isolated, we're all working from home in those
[1:03:53] Speaker 1: first couple of weeks, and I got a good neighborhood
[1:03:55] Speaker 1: for car guys. And about twelve o'clock every day you
[1:03:59] Speaker 1: would go down on this river road and there would
[1:04:01] Speaker 1: just be nine to eleven's and me and my V
[1:04:03] Speaker 1: twelve and it was like it was like a just
[1:04:06] Speaker 1: waiting everybody, just everybody blowing off steam in the middle
[1:04:08] Speaker 1: of the afternoon. And uh, you know, if you got plullbelvi,
[1:04:12] Speaker 1: you just cost it into your hand a couple of
[1:04:14] Speaker 1: times and the cup let you go. It's it was
[1:04:17] Speaker 1: the good days.
[1:04:18] Speaker 3: They were the great days.
[1:04:19] Speaker 2: Love Lockdown, Kevin, Thank you for joining us. It's so
[1:04:23] Speaker 2: good to talk with you. That does it for this
[1:04:27] Speaker 2: week's show. Remember to follow and subscribe to Hot Pursuit
[1:04:31] Speaker 2: on apples, Spotify, and anywhere else you listen. You can
[1:04:34] Speaker 2: also send us your comments. Email us at hot Pursuit
[1:04:37] Speaker 2: at Bloomberg dot net, and.
[1:04:40] Speaker 3: Check out Hannah's columns and stories on Bloomberg dot com
[1:04:42] Speaker 3: and on the Bloomberg Business app. Go there for car
[1:04:45] Speaker 3: Rebus events and stories that you won't find anywhere else
[1:04:48] Speaker 3: find it all at Bloomberg dot com. Slash Pursuits, slash Autos.
[1:04:53] Speaker 2: I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott will be back
[1:04:56] Speaker 2: in your podcast feed again next week

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.