# How to Stop Sabotaging Your Love Life; Logan Ury on Dating Myths, Green Flags & Why You’re Still Single

An episode of [A Really Good Cry](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1708895338), 15 Jul 2025, 1 h 09 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/df24579c-d34d-442a-8481-b06501282e4d/0ab76fda-7182-43f5-b4cb-b31b0076c77b/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=10ca5a50-409d-41dc-a52d-b06501421bfc

Are your unrealistic expectations the reason you’re still single? Do you actually want a partner, or just a “perfect” person who doesn’t exist? Is your dating app profile keeping you single without you even realizing it? Can you tell the difference between a pet peeve and a dealbreaker? In this episode of A Really Good Cry, Radhi sits down with Logan Ury—behavioral scientist, dating coach, and Director of Relationship Science at Hinge—for an honest, myth-busting conversation on love, dating, and emotional intelligence in the modern world. Together, they unpack the hidden tendencies that quietly sabotage our relationships, the outdated myths we’ve been sold about romance, and why our obsession with “the spark” might be holding us back from something deeper and more real. Logan shares the truth about modern dating apps, how to read digital body language, and what Gen Z is teaching us all about vulnerability and connection. Whether you’re single, dating, or somewhere in the messy middle, this episode is a warm, honest guide to building relationships with more self-awareness, clarity, and compassion. In this episode, you’ll learn: • How to spot your unconscious dating tendencies • Why emotional intelligence is more attractive than the “spark” • The difference between a red flag and a personal preference • How to write a dating profile that actually reflects who you are • What to do on a first date—and what to never ignore • The questions to ask yourself before becoming exclusive • How to approach dating with curiosity instead of pressure If you’re tired of feeling like love is something to “get right,” you’re not alone. This conversation is a call back to what actually matters: presence, emotional integrity, and connection that’s honest, even when it’s messy. Follow Logan Ury: https://www.loganury.com/ http://instagram.com/loganury https://www.linkedin.com/in/loganury/ https://www.tiktok.com/@loganury Follow Radhi: https://www.instagram.com/radhidevlukia/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxWe9A4kMf9V_AHOXkGhCzQ https://www.facebook.com/radhidevlukia1/ https://www.tiktok.com/@radhidevlukia See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: Do you think that a man should pay on the
[0:01] Speaker 1: first date. No. Today we have Logan uri On.
[0:04] Speaker 2: She is the director of Relationship Science that Hinge, a
[0:07] Speaker 2: behavioral scientist, a dating coach, and she is the author
[0:11] Speaker 2: of How to Not Die Alone.
[0:12] Speaker 3: It is something that I personally find so frustrating because
[0:16] Speaker 3: that is an excuse to not connect. Oh, it's a
[0:19] Speaker 3: deal breaker that he wore socks with sandals. No, he
[0:21] Speaker 3: wanted to wear sandals and his feet are nice and
[0:23] Speaker 3: cozy in his socks.
[0:24] Speaker 1: I have some profiles actually that were sent in.
[0:26] Speaker 3: So my first piece of feedback would be in our
[0:28] Speaker 3: research at HINE, we found in general that self is
[0:31] Speaker 3: just don't perform as well.
[0:32] Speaker 1: Oh.
[0:32] Speaker 2: Interesting, What are some of the mistakes that you see
[0:35] Speaker 2: people make on dating profiles that really hinder their success.
[0:39] Speaker 2: I'm Radi Wukia and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
[0:43] Speaker 2: we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
[0:47] Speaker 2: for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
[0:51] Speaker 2: to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together.
[0:55] Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of A
[0:57] Speaker 2: Really Good Cry. Today we have Logan urine On. She
[1:00] Speaker 2: is the director of relationship science. That Hinge a behavioral scientist,
[1:04] Speaker 2: a dating coach, and she is the author of How
[1:07] Speaker 2: to Not Die Alone, a book that helps people understand
[1:10] Speaker 2: their dating blind spots and find lasting love using research
[1:13] Speaker 2: back strategies.
[1:14] Speaker 1: I've read this book top to.
[1:16] Speaker 2: Bottom, and even though I'm already in a relationship and married,
[1:19] Speaker 2: I found so much benefit from reading it. I thought
[1:21] Speaker 2: it was such a brilliant book. So thank you so
[1:23] Speaker 2: much for coming to you. I wanted to start off
[1:26] Speaker 2: by asking you what got you into where you are today,
[1:29] Speaker 2: because it is such a fascinating role that you have,
[1:31] Speaker 2: and I would love to hear more about how you
[1:33] Speaker 2: got into it.
[1:34] Speaker 3: Yes, so I think like many other people, when I
[1:36] Speaker 3: was growing up, I was interested in the drama and
[1:38] Speaker 3: the gossip of dating and relationships. But I feel so
[1:40] Speaker 3: lucky that I've been able to turn that into a job,
[1:43] Speaker 3: and so it's taken different forms over the last ten years.
[1:47] Speaker 3: So I've worked one on one as a dating coach,
[1:49] Speaker 3: and I still do that. I teach a class on dating.
[1:53] Speaker 3: I have my role at Hinge where I get to
[1:55] Speaker 3: do research on dating. I wrote my book. I was
[1:58] Speaker 3: just the coach on a Netflix show called The Life
[2:00] Speaker 3: daters working with older daters, and so I really feel
[2:03] Speaker 3: like I've gotten the chance to take the two fields
[2:06] Speaker 3: that I'm interested in, so the field of behavioral science,
[2:09] Speaker 3: the study of how we make decisions, and combine it
[2:11] Speaker 3: with the field of relationship science how love works, and
[2:14] Speaker 3: then give people research backed advice that really helps them
[2:18] Speaker 3: navigate their journey to finding love.
[2:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, having worked at HINGE for a while,
[2:23] Speaker 2: what's one of the most unexpected things that you kind
[2:26] Speaker 2: of learned about relationships and dating at the moment.
[2:29] Speaker 3: Yeah, So, you know, it was just my five year
[2:31] Speaker 3: anniversary of working there, and I started working there right
[2:35] Speaker 3: when the pandemic started, and so it was really interesting
[2:38] Speaker 3: at that time just to see what happened with Hinge
[2:40] Speaker 3: and so really it was one of the only safe
[2:42] Speaker 3: ways that people could meet. So just being able to
[2:44] Speaker 3: observe dating behavior during the pandemic was fascinating. Then seeing
[2:48] Speaker 3: the rise of sober dating, that is something that I'm
[2:52] Speaker 3: really interested in. So many more people don't feel like
[2:55] Speaker 3: they need to get a drink or two on a
[2:56] Speaker 3: first did and gen Z's really leading the charge there.
[2:59] Speaker 1: Wow.
[3:00] Speaker 2: And in behavioral science, when you see people one on
[3:03] Speaker 2: one has there been a trend in what people are
[3:05] Speaker 2: finding the most difficult about dating at the moment.
[3:07] Speaker 3: Yeah. So what I found is that a lot of
[3:10] Speaker 3: people suffer from unrealistic expectations. And I have a framework
[3:14] Speaker 3: called the three dating tendencies. This is from working with
[3:18] Speaker 3: hundreds of people and they're from all different walks of
[3:20] Speaker 3: life and different ages and different countries, but so many
[3:23] Speaker 3: of them have the same thing in common, which is
[3:25] Speaker 3: these unrealistic expectations. So I can go through each one please.
[3:29] Speaker 1: Yeah. My next question was you say the three dating
[3:31] Speaker 1: time Great, can you tell.
[3:32] Speaker 3: Me about that? I'm jumping into your question. So yeah.
[3:34] Speaker 3: So the first one is the romanticizer, and yes, I
[3:38] Speaker 3: want to know which one you are, by the way,
[3:39] Speaker 3: so let me know at the end. The romanticizer is
[3:42] Speaker 3: someone who really has these unrealistic expectations of relationships, so
[3:47] Speaker 3: they think this is going to be my soulmate when
[3:49] Speaker 3: I meet them all. No, immediately, it's going to be
[3:51] Speaker 3: love at first sight. And while that's very romantic and
[3:55] Speaker 3: can be exciting at the beginning, these relationships end up
[3:58] Speaker 3: ending because the person and says, oh, well, we're fighting now,
[4:01] Speaker 3: or we have these issues, it must not be my soulmate,
[4:04] Speaker 3: and so instead of understanding that relationships do require work
[4:09] Speaker 3: and the best relationships are people who really work on
[4:12] Speaker 3: them together, they sort of say, well, this must not
[4:15] Speaker 3: be my soulmate. And then the second type, the maximizer.
[4:19] Speaker 3: They have unrealistic expectations of their partner. So this is
[4:24] Speaker 3: the person who's constantly searching for the perfect person and
[4:28] Speaker 3: always wants to find someone better and comes to my
[4:30] Speaker 3: office and says, the looks of this girl, with the
[4:32] Speaker 3: ambition of this girl, with the height of this girl,
[4:34] Speaker 3: you know, just go find them for me. They're so
[4:37] Speaker 3: focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll
[4:40] Speaker 3: have the perfect relationship, instead of understanding really that they
[4:44] Speaker 3: can choose someone great and then build that relationship together
[4:47] Speaker 3: they don't need to keep searching for perfection. And then
[4:51] Speaker 3: the third one is the hesitator, and they have unrealistic
[4:54] Speaker 3: expectations of themselves. And so the hesitator is someone who's
[4:58] Speaker 3: likely not even dating because they think just not ready
[5:01] Speaker 3: to date yet, I'm not lovable. If I go out
[5:04] Speaker 3: on a date and I meet someone, well, I'm not
[5:06] Speaker 3: the person I want to be yet, so I'm going
[5:08] Speaker 3: to blow my shot. So they'll say I want to
[5:10] Speaker 3: lose weight, I want a more impressive job, I want
[5:12] Speaker 3: to clean up my apartment, And there's constantly this goalposts
[5:15] Speaker 3: that they're moving and for them, really the next activity
[5:19] Speaker 3: is just to actually get out there and date and
[5:21] Speaker 3: to set a deadline, set small goals that they can
[5:24] Speaker 3: achieve and really start dating.
[5:27] Speaker 2: That's so interesting because when you were going through them
[5:29] Speaker 2: and when I was reading the book, I felt like,
[5:31] Speaker 2: at different times in my life, I've been different different ones.
[5:34] Speaker 2: I've been the romanticizer before, I've been the maximizer before,
[5:38] Speaker 2: and I've been the last one too. But I'd say,
[5:41] Speaker 2: you know, now I can't really relate to any of
[5:42] Speaker 2: them because I'm with Jay. But I definitely have been
[5:47] Speaker 2: one of those types. I think when I was really insecure,
[5:50] Speaker 2: I was definitely the last one when I you know,
[5:54] Speaker 2: when I started dating, I was probably the second one
[5:56] Speaker 2: where I was like, but is this it?
[5:57] Speaker 1: Is this? Not it? Am I supposed to find?
[5:59] Speaker 2: You know, these different qualities that I think I should
[6:01] Speaker 2: be having in my life. And I've definitely been the
[6:04] Speaker 2: first one where I've just thought, oh my gosh. When
[6:06] Speaker 2: you're young and you see all these movies and you're like, oh,
[6:09] Speaker 2: this is what love is supposed to be like? Or
[6:11] Speaker 2: when you grow up with a dad who's also a
[6:13] Speaker 2: great father figure and a husband, you're like, oh, my
[6:16] Speaker 2: partner should be.
[6:16] Speaker 1: Exactly like that. And I think I was that person.
[6:19] Speaker 2: I would see my dad do all these things and
[6:20] Speaker 2: I was like, oh, you, my husband should be able
[6:24] Speaker 2: to do all the handyman work in the house.
[6:25] Speaker 1: That's just what it should be like.
[6:27] Speaker 3: That's so interesting.
[6:28] Speaker 2: And Jay was not someone who did handyman work, and
[6:31] Speaker 2: I do that now. But the ideas that you that
[6:34] Speaker 2: you kind of collect through movies, through the people that
[6:37] Speaker 2: you interact with, through the role models that you have
[6:40] Speaker 2: in your life, they kind of shape who you kind
[6:42] Speaker 2: of believe that you should be with before you even
[6:44] Speaker 2: meet the person.
[6:45] Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean that's something that I'm actively researching
[6:47] Speaker 3: right now, kind of exactly what you've said. I think
[6:50] Speaker 3: that there has been an interesting shift where for many years,
[6:53] Speaker 3: there was kind of one expectation of what a guy
[6:55] Speaker 3: should be like. And it sounds like your dad was
[6:57] Speaker 3: maybe this archetypal kind of mass skill in handyman like
[7:02] Speaker 3: big father figure type, and then you know, men were
[7:06] Speaker 3: kind of their role was to be the provider or
[7:08] Speaker 3: to make money for hundreds of years, and then now
[7:11] Speaker 3: that women are making more money and getting more educated
[7:13] Speaker 3: and more women are graduating from college, the men, then
[7:16] Speaker 3: that role really shifts. And you have men who are
[7:20] Speaker 3: sort of saying, well, if I'm not the provider, what's
[7:22] Speaker 3: my role? And women saying well, if he's not the provider,
[7:26] Speaker 3: what is he bringing? And I think the answer is
[7:28] Speaker 3: that people are are relying on each other for emotional
[7:32] Speaker 3: stability and connection and vulnerability. But it does really require
[7:35] Speaker 3: kind of like an update to the system. And I
[7:38] Speaker 3: feel like I want to hear you talk about that
[7:40] Speaker 3: because I feel like it sounds like you had like
[7:42] Speaker 3: a very kind of stereotypical dad and then a husband
[7:45] Speaker 3: is probably like one of the most emotionally intelligent people
[7:47] Speaker 3: out there.
[7:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so interesting, Like my dad was definitely
[7:52] Speaker 2: the provider, made sure that he was. He was also everything,
[7:55] Speaker 2: Like if we had anything important at school, he was there.
[7:57] Speaker 2: If my mom needed him to chuck things in the
[7:59] Speaker 2: kid he chucked things in the kitchen. So he was
[8:02] Speaker 2: always there physically. But I think you know something that
[8:05] Speaker 2: generation of men, I'm just you know, generalizing, but kind
[8:09] Speaker 2: of struggled with was the emotional part of it, and
[8:11] Speaker 2: especially from my culture, like Indian, men are traditionally not
[8:15] Speaker 2: people who are used to expressing their emotions, and so
[8:18] Speaker 2: it was interesting because I'd see him show up and
[8:21] Speaker 2: his mode of love was acts of service. But when
[8:25] Speaker 2: it came to like Valentine's Day, or when it came to,
[8:28] Speaker 2: you know, maybe writing a card, he really struggled with that.
[8:31] Speaker 2: And I would kind of go with him to buy
[8:33] Speaker 2: the flowers for my mom and be like, give these
[8:35] Speaker 2: to mom, you know, And so you know, he's gotten
[8:38] Speaker 2: his I think as he's grown older, he's become so
[8:40] Speaker 2: much more open with his emotions. And he has three
[8:42] Speaker 2: women in the house, so he kind of has to be.
[8:44] Speaker 2: But when I then went on to see men in
[8:48] Speaker 2: dating situations, I was looking for that masculine energy. But
[8:51] Speaker 2: what had shifted was I think now men are open
[8:56] Speaker 2: to being more emotional, and so I wasn't used to
[9:00] Speaker 2: thinking that a man can be masculine and shop as
[9:04] Speaker 2: the masculine energy and be emotional. So at first I
[9:07] Speaker 2: think I was going towards men who were very masculine,
[9:09] Speaker 2: but they didn't have the softness that my dad had,
[9:12] Speaker 2: but they were able to do the handyman work. They
[9:15] Speaker 2: were like, you know, they were strong and they had
[9:17] Speaker 2: all those abilities, but they weren't really filling the emotional
[9:20] Speaker 2: need that I needed. And so then when I met Jay,
[9:23] Speaker 2: I was like, wait, I didn't realize that they could
[9:25] Speaker 2: be this beautiful balance of a man having the emotional
[9:29] Speaker 2: intelligence that you imagine feminine energy brings, but also tuning
[9:33] Speaker 2: into the masculin energy of feeling protected, not in a
[9:36] Speaker 2: masculine way that you expect where he'll just like beat
[9:38] Speaker 2: someone up, but in the sense of I feel safe
[9:41] Speaker 2: and protected in his presence.
[9:43] Speaker 1: And I think, now men are.
[9:45] Speaker 2: You're really being able to see that because they're happy
[9:47] Speaker 2: to tune into their emotional part of themselves, but they
[9:50] Speaker 2: also understand their role in being the protector and the
[9:54] Speaker 2: safety of something.
[9:55] Speaker 3: Like what was that like for you? Like in the beginning,
[9:57] Speaker 3: where you like, this feels different. I'm supper to be
[10:00] Speaker 3: the emotional one, the emotionally intelligent one.
[10:03] Speaker 2: Yes, And it made me realize how emotionally intelligent I
[10:06] Speaker 2: wasn't because he and it was all to do with
[10:09] Speaker 2: the work.
[10:09] Speaker 1: It wasn't whether he was male or female.
[10:11] Speaker 2: It was because he had actually put in time and
[10:13] Speaker 2: effort to work through the traumas that he'd been through
[10:16] Speaker 2: as a child, the things that he did or didn't
[10:18] Speaker 2: want to be when it came to his mum or
[10:20] Speaker 2: his dad, the things that he wanted to take on
[10:21] Speaker 2: into his relationship or didn't.
[10:23] Speaker 1: And actually, I'd.
[10:24] Speaker 2: Say I was way less emotionally intelligent and less I
[10:28] Speaker 2: was immature in my emotions because I had that stereotypical view.
[10:32] Speaker 2: I wasn't allowing it to be what it was. I
[10:34] Speaker 2: was constantly putting these expectations onto the relationship of what
[10:38] Speaker 2: it should be. And then when I started observing him
[10:41] Speaker 2: and how he was towards me, it started teaching me
[10:44] Speaker 2: about what it actually means to be in a relationship
[10:47] Speaker 2: where the emotions flow both ways. And so it was
[10:50] Speaker 2: really weird for me at the beginning. For sure, I
[10:52] Speaker 2: really had to settle into it. But it's almost like
[10:55] Speaker 2: you can't. You can't not feel loved, and when you
[10:59] Speaker 2: feel loved and cared for in the most authentic way,
[11:02] Speaker 2: which is how I feel he is with me, you
[11:04] Speaker 2: can't not settle into it. Like you can either run
[11:07] Speaker 2: from it, which I definitely kept doing. I was like, no,
[11:09] Speaker 2: this was too much, like don't be so emotional, and
[11:11] Speaker 2: I used to say that to him. I was like,
[11:12] Speaker 2: oh God, I'm not you see you being this emotional.
[11:15] Speaker 1: But then I realize it's such a beautiful part of
[11:16] Speaker 1: it because he feels safe enough to do that with me,
[11:18] Speaker 1: and I just see that as like such a compliment
[11:21] Speaker 1: in our relationship, rather than seeing it as something that's weak.
[11:24] Speaker 1: I actually think men who are emotional have the most
[11:26] Speaker 1: amount of strength because they able to embrace their emotions.
[11:29] Speaker 3: There's a famous quote. It's like in a Brene Brown
[11:31] Speaker 3: ted talk from a number of years ago, where she's
[11:33] Speaker 3: giving this speech about vulnerability and how everyone you know
[11:36] Speaker 3: she'd embrace vulnerability and vulnerability is strength. And then a guy
[11:39] Speaker 3: comes up to her afterwards and it's like, my wife
[11:42] Speaker 3: and daughters don't want me to be vulnerable. And it's
[11:45] Speaker 3: like maybe they would say that they want me to
[11:47] Speaker 3: be vulnerable, but like when I actually express any sort
[11:50] Speaker 3: of vulnerability, it scares them because they need me to
[11:54] Speaker 3: be the strong one. And I think that's such an
[11:56] Speaker 3: interesting part of it, because it's like we're speaking in generalize,
[12:00] Speaker 3: but it's like, are women saying, yes, I want this
[12:01] Speaker 3: emotionally vulnerable man. But then when he is like showing
[12:05] Speaker 3: the softer, more feminine sides. Are they like, oh wait,
[12:08] Speaker 3: I'm You're not the pillar of strength that I need
[12:11] Speaker 3: you to be. Yeah, so how can we give more
[12:12] Speaker 3: space to that?
[12:13] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[12:14] Speaker 2: And I think it is changing our view of what
[12:15] Speaker 2: masculinity means, because a lot of what we see as
[12:18] Speaker 2: being masculine is actually toxic masculinity.
[12:20] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[12:20] Speaker 2: Like, just because someone's going to be able to beat
[12:22] Speaker 2: up someone on the street for you because they look
[12:24] Speaker 2: at you, doesn't mean that that's a mask, that's a
[12:26] Speaker 2: positive masculine trade. Yeah, And so I think it's shifting,
[12:29] Speaker 2: and I do see it shifting, though. I see a
[12:31] Speaker 2: lot more women wanting emotional maturity over a man being
[12:35] Speaker 2: able to open the door for them or like buy
[12:37] Speaker 2: them stuff.
[12:38] Speaker 3: Or is that what we're seeing with friends?
[12:40] Speaker 1: I actually am.
[12:41] Speaker 2: I think when I was younger, it was definitely the
[12:43] Speaker 2: narrative that I said, like this strong guy with muscles
[12:46] Speaker 2: and whatever. And now as I see my friends who
[12:49] Speaker 2: have gotten older shifting through relationships and now seeking a partnership,
[12:55] Speaker 2: they've completely shifted in the mindset and they're like, I've
[12:58] Speaker 2: been I've been through all the men who don't have
[13:00] Speaker 2: emotion but they've got muscles, and they can do all
[13:02] Speaker 2: those things that doesn't actually feed me in the way
[13:05] Speaker 2: I need it to.
[13:06] Speaker 1: So now they're shifting their perspective and what they want.
[13:08] Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I think this conversation is so interesting
[13:11] Speaker 3: because I feel like oftentimes like we're taught to look
[13:14] Speaker 3: for a certain thing, but then that's not actually what
[13:16] Speaker 3: ends up being fulfilling to us. And I do think
[13:19] Speaker 3: like even in the last fifty years, this had shifted
[13:22] Speaker 3: so much because like basically only fifty years ago could
[13:25] Speaker 3: women get a credit card in their own name. Like
[13:28] Speaker 3: there's just all these ways in the United States, there's
[13:30] Speaker 3: all these ways in which men just controlled like the
[13:33] Speaker 3: whole economic system, and so like over fifty years, through
[13:36] Speaker 3: feminism and more women going to college and all of that,
[13:38] Speaker 3: like women aren't catching up in many ways financially. So
[13:41] Speaker 3: then you're just like, well, this equation of like you
[13:45] Speaker 3: take care of you know, the emotions and all be
[13:48] Speaker 3: the provider. Like that switching is just going to change
[13:51] Speaker 3: things up, and I think people are still catching up.
[13:55] Speaker 3: I think like we still have these old scripts. So
[13:57] Speaker 3: even though some of like the economics have changed, everything
[14:00] Speaker 3: else has changed. So, for example, you're talking about chivalry
[14:03] Speaker 3: it's like, well, when a woman's like, oh, it's a
[14:05] Speaker 3: red flag if he wants to split on the first date,
[14:08] Speaker 3: I'm like, but you make more money than him. Yeah,
[14:11] Speaker 3: But they're like no, no, no, it's chivalry. But I'm like,
[14:14] Speaker 3: is it.
[14:14] Speaker 1: I've heard that a lot.
[14:15] Speaker 2: Actually, what do you says that are like, oh, but
[14:18] Speaker 2: he you know, he didn't even offer to pay for
[14:20] Speaker 2: the full bill. And because your first date. Imagine how
[14:22] Speaker 2: many first date these guys are going on. And I agree,
[14:25] Speaker 2: even if someone does have the finances, I think I
[14:28] Speaker 2: would we shouldn't just expect that. In my opinion, I
[14:31] Speaker 2: don't think that the guy should have to pay every
[14:33] Speaker 2: single day. I think it's a bit it's unfair because
[14:36] Speaker 2: you also want the expectation of if I think sometimes
[14:39] Speaker 2: you want it both ways. We want to be able
[14:41] Speaker 2: to make money, be the provider as well, be a
[14:46] Speaker 2: girl boss, but then at the same time you want
[14:48] Speaker 2: the guy to show up financially for you too, and
[14:51] Speaker 2: so it kind of sends mixed messages. In my opinion,
[14:53] Speaker 2: I think sometimes we're like, yeah, I want to be
[14:55] Speaker 2: a girl boss and I want to be like doing
[14:57] Speaker 2: all these things, but then I also want the guy
[14:59] Speaker 2: to pay for me, and it want the guy to
[15:00] Speaker 2: be financially stable, and I want him to show me
[15:03] Speaker 2: all these qualities. And I think men get a bit
[15:04] Speaker 2: confused because sometimes I know my guy friends have sometimes said, oh,
[15:08] Speaker 2: if I end up offering to pay, I don't want
[15:10] Speaker 2: them to think that I think I'm old school and
[15:12] Speaker 2: that I I'm not. So the split feels like equality
[15:16] Speaker 2: in a sense, right, and so I think there's a
[15:18] Speaker 2: I think there is definitely still a confusion in that area.
[15:21] Speaker 3: Yeah. No, everything you said is what I've seen in
[15:23] Speaker 3: the research. And it's so interesting because first of all,
[15:26] Speaker 3: I do understand certain things like women might spend more
[15:29] Speaker 3: money like getting ready for a date, or maybe they
[15:32] Speaker 3: do make less money. But I think there are situations where,
[15:35] Speaker 3: you know, roughly based on people's jobs, they'll know like
[15:38] Speaker 3: the woman makes more. But it still feels like, oh,
[15:40] Speaker 3: it's a green flag if he pays or offers to pay.
[15:44] Speaker 3: And yeah, I think that we just as a culture
[15:46] Speaker 3: need to have conversations around that, which is like, there's
[15:49] Speaker 3: so many other ways for a person to express green flags,
[15:52] Speaker 3: like what about like asking you great questions, picking a
[15:55] Speaker 3: date spot that's convenient, really listening to you, following up
[16:00] Speaker 3: and saying, hey, how is that big meeting? Like, I
[16:02] Speaker 3: just feel like there's so many ways to be supported then,
[16:04] Speaker 3: just like who pays for the drinks? And I understand
[16:07] Speaker 3: maybe you say, oh, I don't like to split it.
[16:09] Speaker 3: One person pays for the first date, one person pays
[16:11] Speaker 3: for the second, or I got this round, you got
[16:12] Speaker 3: that round. Like I understand, we still want it to
[16:15] Speaker 3: be romantic and not transactional, but I just feel like
[16:18] Speaker 3: there's certain ways in which we need to catch up
[16:22] Speaker 3: to this moment.
[16:22] Speaker 2: Yes, and not base it purely on that way. So
[16:24] Speaker 2: I need to ask you, do you think that a
[16:26] Speaker 2: man should pay on the first date?
[16:30] Speaker 3: No, I don't think that there's a rule around it,
[16:33] Speaker 3: like you know it has. I'm married, it has been
[16:34] Speaker 3: a while since I've been on a first date. But
[16:36] Speaker 3: I think that if someone offers, I would definitely offer
[16:39] Speaker 3: to split it exactly, and that if they said no,
[16:42] Speaker 3: you know, I would say, Okay, I've got the next one.
[16:45] Speaker 3: I do think they'll like, I'll pay for one round
[16:47] Speaker 3: of drinks, you pay for the other. Can be nice,
[16:48] Speaker 3: like if you can coordinate it. I think the most
[16:51] Speaker 3: important thing is that, like you know, I have been
[16:53] Speaker 3: talking to some men about it, and they're like, I
[16:54] Speaker 3: like paying for the first day. If that's how they feel,
[16:57] Speaker 3: I'm not going to like fight the mem for the bill.
[17:00] Speaker 3: It's not like so important to me that I would
[17:02] Speaker 3: need to make that statement. It's more that, like, as
[17:04] Speaker 3: a society, I would like to move away from the
[17:08] Speaker 3: idea that like what this person can offer you as
[17:10] Speaker 3: money and if they can offer it, then why are
[17:13] Speaker 3: you there and instead be like, hey, like you're the
[17:16] Speaker 3: girl boss. You make a lot of money. That is
[17:18] Speaker 3: so cool. You are so empowered, Like you have this
[17:21] Speaker 3: career that you fought for and you're earning money. Maybe
[17:24] Speaker 3: you don't need to have someone else be the provider.
[17:27] Speaker 3: That's what you bring to the table in addition to
[17:29] Speaker 3: other things. So what else are you looking for in
[17:31] Speaker 3: a partner? And it's like by lowering the importance of
[17:34] Speaker 3: the other person being a provider, you will also raise
[17:37] Speaker 3: your expectations for things like emotional vulnerability, splitting household chores,
[17:42] Speaker 3: things like that.
[17:43] Speaker 1: And have you seen through the research you've done that
[17:45] Speaker 1: women are looking less for finances in men or not.
[17:51] Speaker 3: I'm seeing both. I'm still seeing that paying for a
[17:54] Speaker 3: first few dates is a grain flag right, so that
[17:57] Speaker 3: it's like for straight women, they do want men to
[18:00] Speaker 3: pay for a first date. But then kind of the
[18:03] Speaker 3: cultural conversation that I'm seeing is this overall idea that
[18:06] Speaker 3: as things have shifted and women have had these great
[18:09] Speaker 3: achievements in education and earnings, then the expectations of a
[18:13] Speaker 3: male partner go up, because if I need more from
[18:16] Speaker 3: you than just being the provider and the protector, then
[18:20] Speaker 3: I do expect you to ask me how my day was.
[18:22] Speaker 3: I do expect you to know the name of my
[18:24] Speaker 3: best friend at work. And so I think that we're
[18:27] Speaker 3: in this cultural moment where we need more space for
[18:30] Speaker 3: women to allow men to be vulnerable, kind of like
[18:33] Speaker 3: what we were talking about, where sometimes it can scare
[18:35] Speaker 3: you because you're like, well, if you fall apart, can
[18:38] Speaker 3: I also fall apart? Who's going to keep the ceiling up?
[18:41] Speaker 3: But then also for men to understand that they do
[18:44] Speaker 3: need to provide more than maybe they did in the
[18:47] Speaker 3: past or something different.
[18:49] Speaker 2: Is there a benefit of having a partner on the
[18:52] Speaker 2: same financial bracket as you, Like, how have you seen
[18:54] Speaker 2: those dynamics. I'm really interested in that because some of
[18:57] Speaker 2: my friends who all Gilboss is like, I just need
[18:59] Speaker 2: someone who unders stands my world.
[19:01] Speaker 1: Yeah, and other people are like, you know what.
[19:03] Speaker 2: Find it so much As long as he's able to
[19:04] Speaker 2: support me in the home and do all of those things,
[19:08] Speaker 2: it doesn't bother me as much. But most of the
[19:10] Speaker 2: time I do see women wanting men who are at
[19:14] Speaker 2: the same drive level and financial brackets them.
[19:17] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:18] Speaker 3: Have you heard of the term hypergamy? No, So this
[19:20] Speaker 3: is a concept that people often want someone who's the
[19:24] Speaker 3: same or higher level success in them. And so it's
[19:28] Speaker 3: kind of like you only date horizontally or diagonally, right,
[19:32] Speaker 3: you only date like same as you or better than you.
[19:35] Speaker 3: And so traditionally women have sought out kind of these
[19:38] Speaker 3: hypergamist partners where it's like, okay, well we both have
[19:42] Speaker 3: undergrad degrees, but oh no, actually he has a graduate
[19:45] Speaker 3: degree and that kind of thing. So women want to
[19:47] Speaker 3: date someone who is the same or higher level of
[19:49] Speaker 3: education and income, but men care less about that. And
[19:53] Speaker 3: so what's happening is as more and more women graduate
[19:57] Speaker 3: from college, and in fact, there's some estimations that in
[20:00] Speaker 3: few years it'll be two women graduating for every one man.
[20:04] Speaker 3: Then there just literally won't be enough men who have
[20:06] Speaker 3: the same or higher level of education, and so what
[20:10] Speaker 3: do you do in that situation? And I think saying
[20:12] Speaker 3: to women lower your expectations like that never goes well.
[20:15] Speaker 3: No one really wants to be told lower your expectations
[20:18] Speaker 3: or settle. I feel like in my coaching world, like
[20:21] Speaker 3: settling is a bad word. But I think that's why
[20:24] Speaker 3: I much thinking about things like what really matters to
[20:28] Speaker 3: you and double down on those things and being willing
[20:31] Speaker 3: to compromise on the areas that are less important. And
[20:34] Speaker 3: I think we just I don't have the answers. I
[20:37] Speaker 3: just feel like I'm identifying that there is a cultural
[20:39] Speaker 3: shift here and I'm really interested to see, like with
[20:43] Speaker 3: gen Z and soon Jen Alpha, like how they will
[20:46] Speaker 3: navigate this moment.
[20:47] Speaker 1: You talk about digital body language.
[20:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to go into that bit more because
[20:51] Speaker 2: you know, I always wonder I never had to do
[20:53] Speaker 2: online dating. I've got in a relationship before that kind
[20:56] Speaker 2: of picked up, But I always wonder whether the dynamic
[21:01] Speaker 2: of feeling someone's energy in person. Yeah, completely changes when
[21:05] Speaker 2: you're trying to date someone online. So explain digital body
[21:08] Speaker 2: language to me and how we can navigate that.
[21:11] Speaker 3: Sure. So in some research that we did with gen Z,
[21:14] Speaker 3: daters from around the world. We found that there was
[21:17] Speaker 3: this really a lot of importance placed on digital body language,
[21:20] Speaker 3: which is these the subtext of digital communication. So it
[21:23] Speaker 3: might be emoji, punctuation, how long your message is, how
[21:28] Speaker 3: long you wait to respond, and so it's like not
[21:31] Speaker 3: just what you say, but how you say it. And
[21:33] Speaker 3: we were hearing from so many daters that someone's digital
[21:36] Speaker 3: body language or DBL is a major sign for them
[21:39] Speaker 3: as to whether someone's interested.
[21:41] Speaker 1: Right.
[21:41] Speaker 3: So, for example, if somebody sends back one word responses
[21:45] Speaker 3: or doesn't ask any questions, or doesn't seem to want
[21:48] Speaker 3: to meet up, you're going to read between the lines
[21:50] Speaker 3: that that person's not interested in you. And so it's
[21:53] Speaker 3: really important for daters to have good digital body language
[21:56] Speaker 3: because they may be inadvertently giving across the message that
[22:00] Speaker 3: they're not interested when they are How far.
[22:03] Speaker 2: Should someone go from messaging to speaking on the phone
[22:08] Speaker 2: to actually meeting up in person when they're dating on
[22:10] Speaker 2: an app.
[22:11] Speaker 3: So what we found is that three days of chatting
[22:14] Speaker 3: is actually the sweet spot in terms of messaging to
[22:17] Speaker 3: setting up a date. And I really think of a
[22:20] Speaker 3: date as it could be a FaceTime, it could be
[22:23] Speaker 3: a phone call, or it could be meeting up in
[22:25] Speaker 3: person kind of to what you were talking about. In
[22:27] Speaker 3: terms of gauging someone's energy, I agree that you really
[22:31] Speaker 3: do need to hear their voice and maybe be around
[22:33] Speaker 3: them to do that. So I don't think that the
[22:36] Speaker 3: dating app is where romance and courtship should happen. I
[22:39] Speaker 3: think it's like the modern matchmaker that's like, hey, you
[22:42] Speaker 3: too seem to have some things in common. Go chat,
[22:44] Speaker 3: and then those two people are like, let's get out
[22:47] Speaker 3: of here and meet up in person, and then on
[22:49] Speaker 3: that date you'll see do you like the way they
[22:51] Speaker 3: move their hands when they talk, do you like the
[22:53] Speaker 3: sound of their voice? Do you have chemistry? And so
[22:56] Speaker 3: I think it's less about becoming pen pals and chatting
[22:59] Speaker 3: for we and then deciding to meet up and like really,
[23:02] Speaker 3: probably before you're even ready getting onto that date and
[23:06] Speaker 3: seeing is this the kind of person I want to
[23:07] Speaker 3: see again?
[23:08] Speaker 2: Messages can be so misconstrued, and they think that is
[23:11] Speaker 2: actually where things go wrong the most from what I've seen,
[23:15] Speaker 2: is like what do you think he means by this?
[23:16] Speaker 1: And why do you think he didn't message me?
[23:17] Speaker 2: Or and theweening in between the lines is what drives
[23:21] Speaker 2: most people crazy totally because you don't know them well
[23:24] Speaker 2: enough they send. For me, doing emojis is very normal.
[23:28] Speaker 2: For someone else that might not be so they may
[23:30] Speaker 2: never have used the emoji in their whole entire life,
[23:32] Speaker 2: and so for them saying yes full stop is like
[23:35] Speaker 2: a really pleasant way of speaking for me to be
[23:37] Speaker 2: like yes xxx heart whatever, And so for me messaging
[23:41] Speaker 2: like that, they might be like, whoa this girl is
[23:43] Speaker 2: eager For him messaging saying just yes full stop, it's like, oh, okay,
[23:47] Speaker 2: I've said yes, I can't wait to see this person,
[23:50] Speaker 2: and so I think yes, reducing the amount of time
[23:53] Speaker 2: that you're actually texting for before you actually know the
[23:56] Speaker 2: way that they speak, the way that they actually communicate
[23:58] Speaker 2: via message.
[24:00] Speaker 1: It's so important.
[24:00] Speaker 2: I even think about it with my team whenever we're communicating.
[24:04] Speaker 2: I've had to really make it clear that because I
[24:07] Speaker 2: have to be on my phone all the time, I
[24:08] Speaker 2: won't always be like do pleasantries before and after messages.
[24:12] Speaker 2: And I've had a few people on my team I've
[24:15] Speaker 2: been like, oh, I just need to know, like sometimes
[24:17] Speaker 2: when you don't reply, are you upset with something I've done?
[24:19] Speaker 1: Are you this?
[24:19] Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, and I've had
[24:22] Speaker 2: to explain it. And so once I've explained that to
[24:24] Speaker 2: my team, they're like, oh, okay, now they understand that
[24:27] Speaker 2: if I miss a message, if I'm writing one word answers,
[24:30] Speaker 2: it's just me trying to make sure that we get
[24:32] Speaker 2: things done, not that I'm upset, angry, or mad. And
[24:36] Speaker 2: I think that's the same with the communication of dating
[24:38] Speaker 2: online is literally the same thing. You just can't assess
[24:41] Speaker 2: someone based on the language that they use when they're messaging,
[24:43] Speaker 2: especially at the beginning.
[24:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that happens in so
[24:46] Speaker 3: many types of digital communication. Like I was on a
[24:51] Speaker 3: podcast a few months ago and the guy was great,
[24:53] Speaker 3: and after re recorded, I was like, you know, I
[24:55] Speaker 3: kind of thought you were a jerk based on your emails.
[24:58] Speaker 3: He's like, what do you mean. I was like, me,
[25:00] Speaker 3: show you the emails that you sent, and I was like,
[25:02] Speaker 3: this was the subtext of them, and he's like, wow,
[25:05] Speaker 3: like I really see what you mean. I'm so embarrassed.
[25:07] Speaker 3: I was like, I'm not trying to embarrass you, but
[25:09] Speaker 3: just like you may not realize how you're coming across
[25:11] Speaker 3: over this digital communication. It's like we weren't dating, we
[25:14] Speaker 3: were setting up a professional relationship. But I think it's
[25:17] Speaker 3: so true. It's like we're not all operating from the
[25:20] Speaker 3: same rule book. And so in this research, there was
[25:23] Speaker 3: a woman from Sri Lanka who was saying, oh, emojis
[25:26] Speaker 3: are so cringe, like's not like when a girl sends
[25:29] Speaker 3: me an emoji. And then you know, you have a
[25:30] Speaker 3: guy from Florida being like, emojis are the best way
[25:33] Speaker 3: to flirt, and then you're like, okay, not that those
[25:35] Speaker 3: two people are dating each other. But if everyone has
[25:37] Speaker 3: a different definition, it can be really hard. And that's
[25:40] Speaker 3: why I do think that people should invest in digital
[25:43] Speaker 3: body language, things like matching the person's energy, like if
[25:47] Speaker 3: they write back right away, don't play a game and
[25:49] Speaker 3: try to be cool and wait hours to respond, just
[25:51] Speaker 3: have the conversation. But at the same time, it's like, well,
[25:54] Speaker 3: the answer is actually just to be in person sooner
[25:57] Speaker 3: so that you don't have to have all these games
[25:59] Speaker 3: in your about what does that text mean, because you're
[26:01] Speaker 3: just having a conversation irl.
[26:03] Speaker 2: And I imagine when you're dating, like, oh, how many
[26:06] Speaker 2: people do you actually think someone should be speaking to
[26:08] Speaker 2: at once? Because I feel like my friends get so
[26:11] Speaker 2: bored of the same conversations over and over again, and
[26:14] Speaker 2: they kind of get exhausted and they don't even want
[26:16] Speaker 2: to open their up because they're like, oh, this is
[26:18] Speaker 2: just another same conversation over and over again. So how
[26:21] Speaker 2: many people do you recommend as a sweet spot for
[26:24] Speaker 2: someone to be talking to at once?
[26:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, So two answers for that. So one is if
[26:27] Speaker 3: you do feel like you're having the same conversations over
[26:29] Speaker 3: and over again, changing up your profile can be a
[26:31] Speaker 3: good way to change that. So for example, I had
[26:34] Speaker 3: a dating coaching client who did trapeze. So she had
[26:36] Speaker 3: this really cool picture of her and a Lee tard
[26:38] Speaker 3: doing trapeze. Then every single conversation with a guy would
[26:41] Speaker 3: be where do you do trapeze? Blah blah blah. So
[26:43] Speaker 3: I was like, even though that picture is awesome, I
[26:45] Speaker 3: think you should switch it out for something so that
[26:47] Speaker 3: you have a different conversation. So refreshing your profile and
[26:50] Speaker 3: unhinge refreshing your prompt responses can just lead to different conversations.
[26:54] Speaker 3: So that's one little hack in terms of how many
[26:57] Speaker 3: people at the same time. I find it does depend
[26:59] Speaker 3: on the some but I'll give you some rough rules
[27:01] Speaker 3: of them. So some people feel like they can really
[27:04] Speaker 3: only focus on one or two people at the same time,
[27:07] Speaker 3: and for them, that is the best strategy. For other people,
[27:11] Speaker 3: especially people who are more anxiously attached, it can be
[27:13] Speaker 3: helpful to be talking to a few people so that
[27:15] Speaker 3: you sort of don't have all your eggs in one basket,
[27:18] Speaker 3: and it kind of can help you keep calm. That's
[27:20] Speaker 3: probably more the kind of data I was but at Hinge,
[27:22] Speaker 3: we found that one of the biggest issues with dating
[27:26] Speaker 3: burnout was not hearing back from your matches. So forty
[27:30] Speaker 3: percent of our users said that the biggest issue causing
[27:32] Speaker 3: burnout for them was non responsiveness. So Hinge launched this
[27:36] Speaker 3: feature last year called your Turn Limits, and it's one
[27:40] Speaker 3: of the coolest things I've seen since I've been at Hinge.
[27:42] Speaker 3: And basically how it works is when you have eight
[27:44] Speaker 3: conversations where you owe the person a response, it's your
[27:48] Speaker 3: turn to respond. You can't match with more people nice
[27:52] Speaker 3: until you respond or close out those conversations. And I
[27:55] Speaker 3: love it because, kind of going back to behavioral science,
[27:58] Speaker 3: it's kind of like using this nudge. It's saying we
[28:01] Speaker 3: want to create the behavior of people responding to each other,
[28:03] Speaker 3: because that's how you go on dates, and that's how
[28:05] Speaker 3: you feel more valued and more connected. Okay, well, we
[28:09] Speaker 3: think that people are going to have better experiences and
[28:12] Speaker 3: focus on quality over quantity if they're talking to fewer people,
[28:15] Speaker 3: we're going to literally force you to either respond to
[28:18] Speaker 3: people or close out the conversations before you get more matches.
[28:22] Speaker 3: And we have seen the results of quality over quantity.
[28:24] Speaker 1: That's actually so great that you do that. It's so amazing.
[28:27] Speaker 2: You must get to accumulate so much data and wisdom
[28:30] Speaker 2: that allows you to actually make it a better environment.
[28:33] Speaker 2: You want success, you want people to actually win in
[28:36] Speaker 2: love and dating. So I feel like sometimes people think
[28:39] Speaker 2: dating apps are just so one after another, you're on
[28:42] Speaker 2: a hamster wheel and you're just reeling them out. But
[28:45] Speaker 2: I think having those limits are really important because in
[28:48] Speaker 2: day to day life, you don't have unlimited access to people,
[28:50] Speaker 2: for sure.
[28:51] Speaker 3: And I think in those for people, you know, I
[28:52] Speaker 3: have plenty of clients who are burned out. I just
[28:54] Speaker 3: like to talk to them about the success stories. And
[28:56] Speaker 3: so in my newsletter, like every month or so, will
[28:59] Speaker 3: have a story where it's like this person was dating
[29:02] Speaker 3: this way, it was not working for many years. Then
[29:04] Speaker 3: they made this shift and it's often working with a coach,
[29:07] Speaker 3: working with a therapist, having a new attitude. They started
[29:10] Speaker 3: dating differently and they got this different result, And so
[29:13] Speaker 3: I think people sometimes need reminders that it's not just
[29:16] Speaker 3: like the dating disasters you hear on TikTok, it's actually
[29:19] Speaker 3: people who are saying, like, I'm going to choose a
[29:21] Speaker 3: different path and I'm going to get a different outcome.
[29:24] Speaker 2: And hearing success stories just so I feel like you
[29:26] Speaker 2: get more negative than positive when it comes to it. Right,
[29:29] Speaker 2: as like you're surrounding yourself with stories that are hopeful.
[29:32] Speaker 1: Right to feel hopeful on that.
[29:33] Speaker 3: I feel like it used to be like Instagram was
[29:36] Speaker 3: like share your highlights like you see like in the
[29:39] Speaker 3: highlight reel, and every relationship seems perfect, And now I
[29:41] Speaker 3: feel like we've shifted towards On TikTok, it's like listen
[29:44] Speaker 3: to my bad date, and it's like if you're single
[29:47] Speaker 3: or new newly single, and that's what you're taking in.
[29:49] Speaker 3: Of course you're going to feel negative about dating. Of
[29:52] Speaker 3: Course you're going to have a mindset of it's not
[29:54] Speaker 3: going to work out. It never works out. So I
[29:56] Speaker 3: think people should be really conscious of the friends they
[29:59] Speaker 3: are surrounding them so with and the media that they're consuming,
[30:02] Speaker 3: because of course that's going to impact the way you
[30:05] Speaker 3: feel about dating. And if you really want to find someone,
[30:07] Speaker 3: then surround yourself with people and content that makes you
[30:11] Speaker 3: feel like you can do it.
[30:12] Speaker 1: Yes, not the X page, Yeah, one hundred.
[30:15] Speaker 2: I don't know what you've seen this guy who or
[30:17] Speaker 2: there's lots of pages which do newick unleashed and it's
[30:20] Speaker 2: like showing all the different inks that they have on dates,
[30:23] Speaker 2: and I'm like, at this point, there's the ick for everything.
[30:26] Speaker 3: I know that. It is something that I personally find
[30:28] Speaker 3: so frustrating because it's just like it is funny. It
[30:31] Speaker 3: is like a source of humor. Like I get it.
[30:33] Speaker 3: I do like hearing about silly X. But at the
[30:36] Speaker 3: end of the day, I'm like, that is an excuse
[30:38] Speaker 3: to not connect, and that is an excuse to judge
[30:40] Speaker 3: someone for not being perfect when you're not perfect either.
[30:44] Speaker 3: And so I really hate when we get like viral
[30:46] Speaker 3: content that celebrates being judgmental about things that are truly
[30:51] Speaker 3: pet peeves and they're seeing them as deal breaker. Oh,
[30:54] Speaker 3: it's a deal breaker that he wore socks with sandals.
[30:56] Speaker 3: It's like, no, he wanted to wear sandals and his
[30:59] Speaker 3: feet are nice and coat in his socks, And that's
[31:01] Speaker 3: maybe a pet peeve of yours, but it's truly not
[31:03] Speaker 3: a deal breaker. And I think those X pages are
[31:06] Speaker 3: funny but probably not helping people achieve their goals.
[31:09] Speaker 1: You talk about it in the book.
[31:10] Speaker 2: Actually, the idea of pet peeves versus non negotiable. Could
[31:14] Speaker 2: you kind of define the truth because I think that's
[31:17] Speaker 2: something people get.
[31:18] Speaker 3: A real deal breaker is when you have a fundamental
[31:21] Speaker 3: incompatibility that means you can't be together. So one would
[31:25] Speaker 3: be you have different religions and you both want to
[31:28] Speaker 3: raise your kids in that religion, it's not going to work.
[31:30] Speaker 3: Or one of you as a smoker and the other
[31:32] Speaker 3: has asthma. This just isn't going to work. So that
[31:35] Speaker 3: is a true reason not to be together. Pet peeves
[31:38] Speaker 3: are things that may not be your favorite and may
[31:40] Speaker 3: annoy you or even annoy you more than it would
[31:42] Speaker 3: annoy other people, but it truly wouldn't get in the
[31:45] Speaker 3: way of you having a healthy relationship. As people get
[31:49] Speaker 3: older and their list, their checklist gets longer, and the
[31:52] Speaker 3: list of things that they feel like they must have
[31:54] Speaker 3: or they can't have gets longer. They move a lot
[31:58] Speaker 3: of things to this deal breaker list. And when I
[32:01] Speaker 3: work with clients, you know, like mid thirties and up,
[32:03] Speaker 3: I'm often saying, I understand that your list has gotten
[32:06] Speaker 3: longer because you're like, I've been dating this long, he
[32:08] Speaker 3: better be perfect by now. But this is actually the
[32:11] Speaker 3: time to move those things to a pet peeves list
[32:13] Speaker 3: and to really say, I'm gonna say these are the
[32:16] Speaker 3: things that matter, these are the values and double down
[32:19] Speaker 3: on those. And the things like the socks with sandals
[32:22] Speaker 3: or you know whatever mouth breathing choose with their mouth open.
[32:25] Speaker 3: It's like, sure, you wouldn't choose that, but you could
[32:27] Speaker 3: get over it. You could help them change it, and
[32:29] Speaker 3: it's not going to get in the way of having
[32:31] Speaker 3: a really great relationship.
[32:32] Speaker 1: You can buy him different sandals, you can buy different stuff.
[32:37] Speaker 3: Is so superficial. It's like his apartment wasn't that clean.
[32:40] Speaker 3: I'm like, you can help him understand what clean apartment
[32:44] Speaker 3: is like, like not that you should clean the apartment,
[32:46] Speaker 3: but I'm just saying it's like I feel that people
[32:49] Speaker 3: put up these walls and it's a way to not
[32:52] Speaker 3: connect and if you actually focus on your goal of
[32:57] Speaker 3: you know, sometimes I'll say to my client, I'll say like, Okay,
[32:59] Speaker 3: if you find someone to marry in the next year
[33:02] Speaker 3: who you're so excited about, and I was going to
[33:04] Speaker 3: give you ten million dollars for finding that person, what
[33:07] Speaker 3: would you do in the next year. And then they say, okay, well,
[33:11] Speaker 3: i'd really focus on this and I go to these
[33:12] Speaker 3: events and I do this, and I'm like, okay, well,
[33:14] Speaker 3: I'm not going to give you ten million dollars, but
[33:16] Speaker 3: go do that. I'm like, there are things that you
[33:19] Speaker 3: could do in turbo mode to really get out of
[33:21] Speaker 3: your way. And that's why I think when people really
[33:23] Speaker 3: focus on a timeline or a goal, not to make
[33:26] Speaker 3: them rush, but to make them understand that there are
[33:28] Speaker 3: things that they could be doing that would lead to
[33:30] Speaker 3: different outcomes.
[33:31] Speaker 1: Yes, and you mentioned dating profiles.
[33:34] Speaker 2: What are some of the mistakes that you see people
[33:36] Speaker 2: make on dating profiles that really hinder their success.
[33:39] Speaker 3: Yeah. So at Hinge we've done an incredible amount of
[33:42] Speaker 3: research into what makes a great profile. So I have
[33:45] Speaker 3: some of this in my book, but actually have updated
[33:47] Speaker 3: information now based on the last five years at Hinge.
[33:50] Speaker 3: So the most important thing is just a really good headshot.
[33:53] Speaker 3: People need to see for the first photo, what you
[33:56] Speaker 3: look like. That's the whole point. So don't have a
[33:58] Speaker 3: group photo or something with glass are far away. Just
[34:01] Speaker 3: a clear, well lit headshot.
[34:02] Speaker 1: But like a headshot like adess.
[34:05] Speaker 3: Okay, I say that, but I kind of just am
[34:06] Speaker 3: looking for a word that means like, you know, somewhat
[34:09] Speaker 3: cropped of your face, clear, no sunglasses, no filters, it's
[34:13] Speaker 3: not artsy, you're not in shadows something like that, like
[34:16] Speaker 3: well lift. Then the photos that people are looking for
[34:19] Speaker 3: are one of you doing an activity that you love,
[34:22] Speaker 3: so it might be you hiking, you cooking, a full
[34:25] Speaker 3: body shot, and then one with friends and family. And
[34:29] Speaker 3: make sure that it's clear that none of these people
[34:32] Speaker 3: are your ex girlfriend or boyfriend. And then also you
[34:35] Speaker 3: want to have a variety of photos. You want to
[34:37] Speaker 3: show different size of yourself. So I had a woman
[34:39] Speaker 3: in my dating class who had four photos from the
[34:41] Speaker 3: same photoshoot with her and her dog, and I was like,
[34:44] Speaker 3: you're cute, your dog is cute, but I now know
[34:47] Speaker 3: what you look like on this day. I don't need
[34:49] Speaker 3: four pictures of it. So we cut that down and
[34:52] Speaker 3: then for prompts, it's really about expressing yourself and showing
[34:56] Speaker 3: both humor and vulnerability. So sometimes people are just all
[34:59] Speaker 3: still and sarcastic, and then that's kind of one side
[35:02] Speaker 3: of them, or they're all super earnest, like bullet points
[35:05] Speaker 3: of like, you know, must be open to adventure, journaling, meditation.
[35:11] Speaker 3: I'm like, that's great, but show me other sides of
[35:13] Speaker 3: yourself as well. And so it's really about painting this picture.
[35:17] Speaker 3: And then in terms of the big don't don't have
[35:20] Speaker 3: one of those photos where it's you know, you and
[35:21] Speaker 3: your girlfriends that bridesmaids at someone's wedding and you all
[35:24] Speaker 3: look the same and I can't tell which one you are.
[35:27] Speaker 3: People don't like photos with smoking or Jim selfies especially,
[35:32] Speaker 3: And then for no Jim selfies, No, that's a turn off.
[35:35] Speaker 3: Only three percent of successful profiles you all have Jim selfies.
[35:39] Speaker 3: And then for the prompts, it's really about not having
[35:43] Speaker 3: one word answers, not having grammatical mistakes, and just showing
[35:47] Speaker 3: us new information.
[35:49] Speaker 2: It's so interesting whenever, like some of my friends when
[35:51] Speaker 2: they're picking their profile pictures and stuff, they'll send it
[35:53] Speaker 2: to a group chat.
[35:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a group chat of guys and girls.
[35:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is so interesting to see well, guys
[35:59] Speaker 2: tell the belsa versus what women tell their friends to pick.
[36:03] Speaker 2: I find that the view of what is beautiful, sexy,
[36:07] Speaker 2: or attractive is completely different for both. The men are like, oh, yeah,
[36:11] Speaker 2: show a bit of skin, but not too much skin.
[36:13] Speaker 2: The girls are either like, yeah, you should show up
[36:15] Speaker 2: your buddy and like be really like confident in the
[36:17] Speaker 2: way that you're showing off yourself. But I find that
[36:21] Speaker 2: the pictures that men and women choose are so different.
[36:24] Speaker 2: So when you're seeking advice about profile pictures, do you
[36:28] Speaker 2: ask guys because that's who you're trying to attract, or
[36:30] Speaker 2: do you ask your girls because they'll have, you know,
[36:33] Speaker 2: the same kind of mindset as you.
[36:34] Speaker 3: Yeah, I've found the same thing that you found in
[36:36] Speaker 3: your group chats. So in my class, we actually have
[36:39] Speaker 3: people post photos and then they get feedback from the
[36:42] Speaker 3: coaches in the class. There's like an image expert who's
[36:46] Speaker 3: like one of the coaches, and then from men and
[36:48] Speaker 3: women in the class. But you're right, it's like, oftentimes
[36:50] Speaker 3: women will be like, you look so pretty there, I
[36:52] Speaker 3: love your dress, and then a guy will be like,
[36:54] Speaker 3: you look caught here. Yeah, And I don't have the
[36:57] Speaker 3: perfect answer. I think it's like, you know, a deeper
[36:59] Speaker 3: thing around like the male gaze. It's like, you know,
[37:02] Speaker 3: we're talking about straight dating, but it's like, are you
[37:03] Speaker 3: trying to get the photo that most men will respond to?
[37:06] Speaker 3: Are you trying to get the photo where you feel
[37:08] Speaker 3: like you look the most like yourself? And I think
[37:11] Speaker 3: that that's something for people to decide for themselves. Like
[37:15] Speaker 3: there was a woman in a class who had like,
[37:19] Speaker 3: like a very busty bikini photo and one of the
[37:22] Speaker 3: women wrote as feedback, like I don't think you're going
[37:25] Speaker 3: to get the kind of attention that you want from that,
[37:27] Speaker 3: And so I think that people should just think about
[37:30] Speaker 3: what impression do I give someone with this photo. So
[37:33] Speaker 3: maybe that person's like, I'm here to have fun. I
[37:36] Speaker 3: want to show off this bikini picture. Like more power
[37:38] Speaker 3: to you that you were empowered to do that, But
[37:40] Speaker 3: also that is going to send a certain message. And
[37:42] Speaker 3: so I think there's like the girl hot, the guy hot,
[37:45] Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, it's like, how
[37:47] Speaker 3: do you want to be perceived at this moment in
[37:49] Speaker 3: your life and what feels authentic to you.
[37:51] Speaker 2: I really like that actually, because I think when at
[37:54] Speaker 2: the end of the day, you want the person to
[37:56] Speaker 2: get the clearest depiction of you as you. So I
[38:00] Speaker 2: need lots of my friends who are actually like so sweet,
[38:04] Speaker 2: actually not very forward in the way that they date
[38:08] Speaker 2: or have relationships with people. But when they put up
[38:11] Speaker 2: pictures of themselves showing a bit more skin, naturally, the
[38:14] Speaker 2: guys that they attract are like the ones who kind
[38:16] Speaker 2: of want one night stands or something, but that's not
[38:19] Speaker 2: what they want, and so they kind of realize through
[38:22] Speaker 2: the experience of putting different pictures up what they end
[38:26] Speaker 2: up attracting through it.
[38:27] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I definitely when I was using online dating,
[38:30] Speaker 3: you do have that experience. You know, different photos get
[38:32] Speaker 3: you more or less attention, and different types of attention.
[38:35] Speaker 3: And I think that as people change and their relationship
[38:38] Speaker 3: goals change, they can also change their profiles.
[38:41] Speaker 2: Okay, I have some profiles actually that were sent me
[38:45] Speaker 2: by listeners. We have two profiles, and they're happy for
[38:49] Speaker 2: their names to be said, but I'm going to show
[38:51] Speaker 2: you them.
[38:51] Speaker 1: It's a video and I was wondering if you could
[38:54] Speaker 1: analyze it.
[38:55] Speaker 3: Can I read it out loud?
[38:56] Speaker 1: Yes?
[38:56] Speaker 3: Pleez? Okay, this is Hannah. The way to surprise, the
[39:00] Speaker 3: way to win me over is to surprise me. Okay,
[39:06] Speaker 3: it doesn't have children, want's children, ASA's London. Okay, I'm
[39:12] Speaker 3: really taking it in. Yeah, all right, So some nice
[39:15] Speaker 3: pictures dressed up with her friends, and there's a picture
[39:18] Speaker 3: of an egg with a graduation thing. I geek out
[39:20] Speaker 3: on books. I love reading. Giving half a chance, I'll
[39:22] Speaker 3: spend more time in a bookshop than Zara homark for
[39:25] Speaker 3: a good relationship, respect, authenticity, and kindness. There's a really
[39:29] Speaker 3: cool one of her climbing. She's beautiful ocean side. Okay,
[39:36] Speaker 3: so my first piece of feedback would be I feel
[39:39] Speaker 3: like for the prompts, it's possible to just add more like.
[39:42] Speaker 3: The way to win me over is to surprise me.
[39:44] Speaker 3: So I really like to have prompt responses that include
[39:48] Speaker 3: a hook. So a hook is something that people can
[39:51] Speaker 3: immediately respond to, and so the easiest hook is often
[39:54] Speaker 3: a question, but it could also be a hot take.
[39:56] Speaker 3: So the way to win me over is to surprise me.
[40:00] Speaker 3: What's the best surprise you've ever done for someone else,
[40:03] Speaker 3: or what's the best gift you've ever given? Or she
[40:06] Speaker 3: could just you know, completely change it. The way to
[40:08] Speaker 3: win me over is listen to me when I talk
[40:11] Speaker 3: about work and ask me for follow questions or something
[40:14] Speaker 3: like that. So I would say, like to surprise me.
[40:16] Speaker 3: I think that there's just not enough there for somebody
[40:18] Speaker 3: to follow up on, especially for the first prompt, which
[40:20] Speaker 3: is often like what people respond to. Then I think
[40:23] Speaker 3: for the photos, you know, I think they're definitely attractive.
[40:26] Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of them are more going out,
[40:28] Speaker 3: Like the first one is like a going out photo,
[40:30] Speaker 3: the second one is a going out photo. Then there's
[40:32] Speaker 3: the one of the egg wearing the graduation cap, and
[40:37] Speaker 3: it might be that that has a caption that I
[40:39] Speaker 3: can't click on. But for that one, I would say, like,
[40:41] Speaker 3: I'm just not learning more information about you. That's an
[40:44] Speaker 3: opportunity for you to tell me more about yourself. So
[40:47] Speaker 3: I kind of feel like that one's a bit of
[40:49] Speaker 3: a waste and I would swap it out for a
[40:52] Speaker 3: different photo of her. And then I love that she
[40:56] Speaker 3: has a photo of her doing something that she loves,
[40:59] Speaker 3: you know, traveling or climbing. I like that there's some
[41:02] Speaker 3: full body pictures in here, and I like that she
[41:04] Speaker 3: has friends and family. And then I like the one
[41:07] Speaker 3: about books. I love reading. Given half a chance, I
[41:11] Speaker 3: think that's a great opportunity for a hook, so she
[41:14] Speaker 3: could say extra credit if you recommend my next great book,
[41:18] Speaker 3: or what's the last good book you read? Or she
[41:20] Speaker 3: could even you know, do a funny poll like is
[41:22] Speaker 3: listening to a book actually reading? And so I think
[41:25] Speaker 3: there's a nice way to engage there. I had a
[41:28] Speaker 3: client who wanted to indicate on his profile that he
[41:30] Speaker 3: was looking for a long term relationship, but he didn't
[41:33] Speaker 3: want to come on too strong. Yes, and he really
[41:36] Speaker 3: loved reading, So he came up with this one about
[41:39] Speaker 3: I'm looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with.
[41:43] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[41:43] Speaker 3: I loved it because it was it was indicating like
[41:46] Speaker 3: I'm here for a good time in a long time,
[41:49] Speaker 3: but I you know, but while also indicating that he
[41:51] Speaker 3: loves reading.
[41:52] Speaker 1: Oh that's great. Actually, yeah, great advice.
[41:55] Speaker 3: Good. Yeah. So I would say overall, like I think
[41:58] Speaker 3: it's a fun profile. I think she can add like
[42:00] Speaker 3: maybe some different types of photos for a little bit
[42:03] Speaker 3: more variety, swap out that egg photo and then use
[42:06] Speaker 3: the prompts to go a little bit deeper. And then
[42:08] Speaker 3: she could also use some of the other features. So
[42:10] Speaker 3: there's like a prompt poll where you could say, like
[42:13] Speaker 3: where should we go for our first date or ask
[42:15] Speaker 3: a question. And then there's also one where you can
[42:17] Speaker 3: do a voice prompt and like, you know, if you
[42:22] Speaker 3: have a lovely accent, if you're from London, like you
[42:24] Speaker 3: could do that and people really love to hear what
[42:26] Speaker 3: people's voices sound like.
[42:28] Speaker 1: Gosh, that was great, great, Yay, let's try this next one.
[42:31] Speaker 3: This is Alison Alison all right together, we could leave
[42:36] Speaker 3: places early insta al babs all right. Then there's a
[42:41] Speaker 3: photo of her and her friend. This one. One thing
[42:44] Speaker 3: I'd love to know about you is what did you
[42:46] Speaker 3: yap about in therapy this week? Love it me and
[42:49] Speaker 3: my best friend? So there's a kid green flags I
[42:52] Speaker 3: look for and not friends with an ex caption this photo.
[42:56] Speaker 3: So a few things. One is that in our research
[42:59] Speaker 3: at Hinge, we found in and all that selfies just
[43:01] Speaker 3: don't perform as well. And so Allison has the first
[43:05] Speaker 3: photos a selfie, the second photo is a selfie, the
[43:10] Speaker 3: third photo is a mirror selfie. I think, oh, and
[43:14] Speaker 3: the beach photos a selfie, so like four out of
[43:16] Speaker 3: six of them are selfie. So that's something that I
[43:18] Speaker 3: would change for the one that says me and my
[43:20] Speaker 3: best friend. There might be more information on here that
[43:23] Speaker 3: I can't see, but I would immediately want to know,
[43:25] Speaker 3: like is this your kid or not. That's something that
[43:27] Speaker 3: comes up a lot, like in research and in anecdotal
[43:30] Speaker 3: conversations where people are just like, there's a guy holding
[43:33] Speaker 3: a baby, like is that your nephew or your son?
[43:36] Speaker 3: Because I want to know. So it's possible that there's
[43:38] Speaker 3: something else on here, but that would be a question
[43:40] Speaker 3: for people.
[43:41] Speaker 2: All baby picture is good, like you and a baby,
[43:43] Speaker 2: If it's not your baby, is that a good pick
[43:45] Speaker 2: to have?
[43:46] Speaker 3: I think that it can just add more confusion than clarity.
[43:49] Speaker 3: But some people might say it's really cute. I'm like,
[43:52] Speaker 3: just take a picture of a friend's dog or something
[43:54] Speaker 3: that I say, it's not your dog, Okay, so then
[43:56] Speaker 3: this is together. We could leave places early. I really
[43:59] Speaker 3: like that. I feel like that's evocative for me, like
[44:02] Speaker 3: I want to go out, but I want to leave
[44:04] Speaker 3: early with you. But then giving your Instagram handle right
[44:08] Speaker 3: away is actually generally not perceived as well by people
[44:12] Speaker 3: on hinge, so it's kind of seen as like, oh,
[44:14] Speaker 3: are you just trying to get followers or college. I mean,
[44:17] Speaker 3: I don't know that that's necessarily what's going on here.
[44:20] Speaker 3: I mean, it might she might just be like, you
[44:22] Speaker 3: can look at more photos of me there. But that's
[44:24] Speaker 3: something that we specifically have seen is when people just
[44:26] Speaker 3: leave their Instagram handle, it's kind of like, I don't
[44:29] Speaker 3: know you check me out right, Or when people say
[44:33] Speaker 3: I'm overly competitive about dot dot dot everything, those become cliches.
[44:38] Speaker 1: Right and also not it doesn't feel like you've put
[44:40] Speaker 1: in enough f at me, right.
[44:41] Speaker 3: And so actually Hinge came out with a feature earlier
[44:43] Speaker 3: this year that's called prompt Feedback. So basically it's an
[44:47] Speaker 3: AI coach that will show you, like privately and no
[44:50] Speaker 3: one else can see it, things like go a little
[44:52] Speaker 3: bit deeper or add a bit more. Like if you
[44:55] Speaker 3: say I'm overly competitive about everything, they'll say, what are
[44:58] Speaker 3: you competitive about? Talk more about that? And so I
[45:00] Speaker 3: feel like the feedback for this one might be like,
[45:03] Speaker 3: instead of giving the Instagram handle, like, tell us more
[45:07] Speaker 3: about what you want to do together, and then you know,
[45:11] Speaker 3: I do feel like we get photos. I like this
[45:14] Speaker 3: last photo of her with this dog, it's a video.
[45:18] Speaker 3: Oh no, this is a video. I'm sorry. I feel
[45:19] Speaker 3: like we would like see her in action. Yeah, and
[45:22] Speaker 3: then it looks like there's only two prompts that she
[45:24] Speaker 3: responded to. The first, Oh, no, I really like this one.
[45:27] Speaker 3: What did you yap about in therapy this week? Like
[45:29] Speaker 3: I feel like yap is kind of trending right now.
[45:31] Speaker 3: So I love that she used that, and I think
[45:33] Speaker 3: it's just a really great way of indicating, Like I like,
[45:36] Speaker 3: if you're in therapy, tell me about how you're in therapy.
[45:39] Speaker 3: What did you talk about in therapy? I think it's
[45:41] Speaker 3: kind of vulnerable. I really like that one. Green flags
[45:43] Speaker 3: I look for and not friends with an X. That's fine,
[45:46] Speaker 3: but it kind of gives me this like negative energy
[45:49] Speaker 3: of like where you burned by someone who is friends
[45:51] Speaker 3: with their acts, Like don't you think that some people
[45:54] Speaker 3: can be friends with their exes? So I think that
[45:58] Speaker 3: in general, it's better to focus on what you do
[46:01] Speaker 3: want then then instead of what you don't want.
[46:04] Speaker 1: So necessarily a green flag, because it's like, is something positive.
[46:07] Speaker 3: Totally, it's like just taking an opportunity to talk about
[46:10] Speaker 3: something positive and say don't do this. And so I
[46:13] Speaker 3: would actually just either scrap that one altogether or change
[46:16] Speaker 3: it to a green lag that you actually do look for.
[46:18] Speaker 1: Yes, great, Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you, Alison. Right.
[46:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, Alison, thank you so much for sending in your
[46:24] Speaker 2: profile and I hope that that helped you. How do
[46:26] Speaker 2: people find you, know, if they don't want to be
[46:29] Speaker 2: on apps? Yeah, what's the best place for people to
[46:31] Speaker 2: start finding people outside of the apps?
[46:34] Speaker 3: I've definitely found more and more that people are asking
[46:36] Speaker 3: me like, how do I meet someone off the apps?
[46:39] Speaker 1: Yeah?
[46:39] Speaker 3: I feel like if you're single and really serious about
[46:41] Speaker 3: finding someone, you should just think about the apps as
[46:43] Speaker 3: like part of sort of an overall portfolio. It's like
[46:46] Speaker 3: you're on the apps because that's the way to meet
[46:48] Speaker 3: the most number of people, and it hinge. We're setting
[46:50] Speaker 3: up a date every two seconds, But there's no reason
[46:52] Speaker 3: why you can't be going to a party and striking
[46:55] Speaker 3: up a conversation with someone. Or I feel like people
[46:57] Speaker 3: under use the friends of friends thing. So there's this
[47:01] Speaker 3: concept called weak ties. Professor Adam Grant talks about this
[47:05] Speaker 3: a lot, where it's like you probably are going to
[47:08] Speaker 3: get your next job through a week tie someone who's
[47:11] Speaker 3: an acquaintance and a for a friend of a friend
[47:13] Speaker 3: because your friends have the same information you do. They
[47:16] Speaker 3: know the people you do, they know the jobs that
[47:18] Speaker 3: are available that you do, but the friends of friends
[47:20] Speaker 3: have an extended network, so it's often easier to meet
[47:25] Speaker 3: someone through that group. And you do have to be
[47:27] Speaker 3: vulnerable and put yourself out there and say, hey, I'm
[47:30] Speaker 3: looking for love. Do you know anyone like this? But
[47:32] Speaker 3: I think it's a really great way to meet someone
[47:35] Speaker 3: in context.
[47:36] Speaker 1: I agree.
[47:37] Speaker 2: I remember hearing this the theory of you know, if
[47:40] Speaker 2: you're staying at home and you're waiting for someone to
[47:41] Speaker 2: come and find you, that's like a zero percent chance
[47:43] Speaker 2: of meeting someone. And then the more events that you
[47:46] Speaker 2: say yes to, the probability of you're meeting people increases.
[47:49] Speaker 2: The more that you go to friend's birthdays or go
[47:53] Speaker 2: out to buy your groceries instead of ordering them in,
[47:56] Speaker 2: like go out to a restaurant instead of ordering in,
[47:58] Speaker 2: it just completely changes the probability of you meeting someone.
[48:02] Speaker 2: And it might not be the person, but it'll be
[48:03] Speaker 2: the person that could link you to the person. And
[48:06] Speaker 2: so it sounds like such a simple theory, but some
[48:09] Speaker 2: of my friends and I can't be bothered to go
[48:10] Speaker 2: to this or I can't be bothered to go to
[48:12] Speaker 2: this event. I've met all these people before. But it's like,
[48:14] Speaker 2: but what about if you meet that one person that
[48:16] Speaker 2: knows that person totally. So it's being like open to
[48:19] Speaker 2: hope and opportunity, I think is a big mindset shift
[48:22] Speaker 2: that has to happen to think of the wife.
[48:25] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think about that stuff all the time. Like
[48:27] Speaker 3: my husband's parents met on the New York City subway
[48:30] Speaker 3: now where my husband's mom was reading a developmental psychology
[48:34] Speaker 3: book and my husband, my husband's dad approached her about it.
[48:38] Speaker 3: And it's like that just wouldn't have happened now itay
[48:40] Speaker 3: is because they would have both had air pods in,
[48:42] Speaker 3: or she would have been reading on a device, or
[48:44] Speaker 3: it would be seen as creepy to talk to a stranger.
[48:46] Speaker 3: And so I think we just all need to really
[48:48] Speaker 3: work on this muscle. And if it means that the
[48:52] Speaker 3: only time you talk to a stranger is when they're
[48:53] Speaker 3: super attractive and you're interested in them, that's not how
[48:56] Speaker 3: to build the muscle because you won't be good at
[48:58] Speaker 3: it and you'll be nervous. Just talking to people out
[49:00] Speaker 3: and about in general is such an underrated skill. So
[49:03] Speaker 3: it's like you're waiting in line for tsa ask someone
[49:06] Speaker 3: how long have you been waiting here? Or you go
[49:08] Speaker 3: to an event and you say, you know, where's the
[49:10] Speaker 3: bathroom or how do you know the host? Like, just
[49:14] Speaker 3: work on the skill of talking to people, talking to strangers,
[49:17] Speaker 3: really get into these small talk conversations, and then when
[49:21] Speaker 3: you do see someone you're attracted to and you want
[49:23] Speaker 3: to shoot your shot, you're just going to be so
[49:25] Speaker 3: much better at it because you've been practicing speaking to
[49:28] Speaker 3: people you don't know.
[49:29] Speaker 1: Yes, wait, how did you meet your husband? So?
[49:31] Speaker 3: I met my husband originally in college, Ok, and then
[49:35] Speaker 3: we just like met once randomly for a lunch, and
[49:37] Speaker 3: then seven years later we were both working at Google.
[49:40] Speaker 3: But even then it took another year for us to
[49:43] Speaker 3: start dating.
[49:43] Speaker 1: Really, you were friends at best.
[49:45] Speaker 3: We were friends and like he was going on dates
[49:47] Speaker 3: and I was chasing this other guy, and it really
[49:50] Speaker 3: took a year to be like, oh wait, he has
[49:53] Speaker 3: all the qualities I'm looking for.
[49:54] Speaker 1: Ah, so nice.
[49:56] Speaker 2: When you guys started dating, you know or well, you'll
[49:59] Speaker 2: recommend for questions to ask on dates, like are there
[50:03] Speaker 2: some top questions that you have that people should ask?
[50:05] Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it might be a little different for us
[50:07] Speaker 3: because we had been friends for a while. I think
[50:10] Speaker 3: that people often make the mistake on first dates of
[50:13] Speaker 3: treating it like a job interview, and so it's like
[50:16] Speaker 3: you're going in with this mental checklist of essentially, are
[50:19] Speaker 3: you good enough for me? Are you going to fulfill
[50:21] Speaker 3: the role of husband or wife?
[50:22] Speaker 1: Yes?
[50:23] Speaker 3: Are you going to get a gyues to move on
[50:25] Speaker 3: to the second date or a no? And instead you
[50:28] Speaker 3: can have a radically different view of first dates, which is,
[50:30] Speaker 3: I'm here to have an experience with you and see
[50:33] Speaker 3: what it's like to spend time with you, and I
[50:35] Speaker 3: want to have fun and even if this doesn't turn
[50:37] Speaker 3: into a relationship, I still want to have fun and
[50:39] Speaker 3: have a connection. And so I have this tool called
[50:42] Speaker 3: the post date eight and these are eight questions to
[50:45] Speaker 3: ask yourself after a date. And the whole point is
[50:48] Speaker 3: that if you go into the date with the evaluative
[50:52] Speaker 3: mindset are you good enough for me? You're going to
[50:55] Speaker 3: be looking for those things. If you go into the
[50:57] Speaker 3: date with the experiential mindset, how does my body feel
[51:01] Speaker 3: around you? What side of me do you bring out?
[51:04] Speaker 3: Did I feel heard in your presence? Did I laugh
[51:06] Speaker 3: in your presence? Did I feel active it? Did I
[51:09] Speaker 3: feel interested? Did I feel bored? Somewhere in between? You're
[51:12] Speaker 3: really paying attention to what it's like to be around
[51:14] Speaker 3: that person, and I think in general people have sort
[51:17] Speaker 3: of lost that skill. It's like you can always do
[51:21] Speaker 3: the math of like how tall someone is, how much
[51:24] Speaker 3: money they make, this and that, but it's like at
[51:26] Speaker 3: the end of the day, like do you want to
[51:27] Speaker 3: sit next to them on a couch on a Tuesday exactly?
[51:31] Speaker 2: And what are some of the good places you know,
[51:33] Speaker 2: do you think a dinner date is still the best
[51:35] Speaker 2: place to go on the first day or what are
[51:37] Speaker 2: some good places to take people out?
[51:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, I think dinner for most people would be like
[51:42] Speaker 3: too serious.
[51:43] Speaker 1: You know.
[51:43] Speaker 3: I think a common first date, of course, you'd be
[51:45] Speaker 3: like getting drinks. But as people are more sober, sober curious,
[51:49] Speaker 3: a lot of people are meeting up to go for
[51:51] Speaker 3: a walk, right, or they might do an activity like
[51:55] Speaker 3: they might play pickleball and then get a smoothie afterwards,
[51:59] Speaker 3: or you know, a pick that's also good with kind
[52:01] Speaker 3: of sharing the financial requirements because you know, both people
[52:05] Speaker 3: can bring all that stuff. So I would say, really
[52:07] Speaker 3: think about an activity that's going to be fun, that's
[52:09] Speaker 3: going to help you show off your silly side or
[52:12] Speaker 3: help you be less in your head, and then at
[52:14] Speaker 3: the end of the day, you don't say do I
[52:15] Speaker 3: want to marry them? You say do I want to
[52:17] Speaker 3: see them again?
[52:18] Speaker 1: That's it? Yeah, do I want to see them again?
[52:19] Speaker 2: The pressure off have it of planning the future from
[52:22] Speaker 2: like the first time you meet someone, but take it
[52:25] Speaker 2: date by date, step by step. Yeah, how can you
[52:27] Speaker 2: tell if a man is emotionally stable in the first
[52:30] Speaker 2: few dates? Are there some green flags that people should
[52:32] Speaker 2: be looking for?
[52:33] Speaker 3: In my book, I talk about the things that matter
[52:36] Speaker 3: more and less than we think they do for long
[52:38] Speaker 3: term relationships, and I'll share what they both are. But
[52:41] Speaker 3: what's hard is that the things that are not as
[52:43] Speaker 3: important are the easier ones to measure. Oh okay, So
[52:47] Speaker 3: the things that are important but less important than people
[52:49] Speaker 3: think they are, so looks and money. Of course, you
[52:52] Speaker 3: want to be attracted to your partner. Of course money
[52:54] Speaker 3: makes things easier. But at the end of the day,
[52:57] Speaker 3: we adapt to our circumstances, so those things tend to
[53:01] Speaker 3: be less important over time. Then people feel like, oh,
[53:05] Speaker 3: we need to have the same personality, we need to
[53:07] Speaker 3: have the same hobbies. That actually doesn't matter. You can
[53:09] Speaker 3: be complimentary to each other and you don't have to
[53:11] Speaker 3: share hobbies as long as you support the other person's hobbies. Now,
[53:15] Speaker 3: the things that do matter more than we think they do.
[53:18] Speaker 3: So the first one is kindness, and I think that
[53:21] Speaker 3: you can tell that on a first date, or how
[53:23] Speaker 3: someone communicates, you know, how do they treat the waiters,
[53:27] Speaker 3: How do they treat someone who they need nothing from?
[53:30] Speaker 3: Even how do they treat you? Are they a good listener?
[53:32] Speaker 3: Do they seem interested loyalty? It does take more time
[53:36] Speaker 3: to see that. But do they have old friends from
[53:38] Speaker 3: different phases of their life? Are they the kind of
[53:40] Speaker 3: person who helps someone move like? Do they seem like
[53:44] Speaker 3: they hold on to people over time? The emotional stability one,
[53:49] Speaker 3: I think that that takes time as well. But you
[53:51] Speaker 3: can think about emotional regulation. So for me, when I
[53:55] Speaker 3: was an anxiously attached DAT, I struggled with emotional regulation
[53:58] Speaker 3: a lot. It was like I didn't hear back from you.
[54:00] Speaker 3: I'm going to send you a million texts and then
[54:01] Speaker 3: turn off my phone, Like I feel anxious, so I
[54:03] Speaker 3: want to hear from you to make me feel better.
[54:05] Speaker 3: It's like I was not the most emotionally regulated. And
[54:08] Speaker 3: so I think looking for emotional stability and looking for
[54:11] Speaker 3: someone who's able to kind of take that pause and
[54:14] Speaker 3: you know, take that moment between the activity and their response.
[54:19] Speaker 3: That's a great thing to look out for, but it
[54:20] Speaker 3: does take time. And then a few more. One is
[54:23] Speaker 3: the ability to make hard decisions together. Of course we're
[54:26] Speaker 3: not just talking about like where are we going to
[54:28] Speaker 3: order in from tonight, but really like if you have
[54:32] Speaker 3: to decide between your friend's wedding and another friend's wedding,
[54:35] Speaker 3: or where you're going to spend the holidays, Like are
[54:38] Speaker 3: you good at decision making? Like I feel like now
[54:42] Speaker 3: I've been with my husband for ten years, like as
[54:45] Speaker 3: of a month from now, and I'm just like, Wow,
[54:47] Speaker 3: We've really had to navigate a lot of hard decisions together,
[54:51] Speaker 3: and i just feel like, in the end of the day,
[54:53] Speaker 3: I'm like, he's so smart, he's wise. I respect his opinion.
[54:56] Speaker 3: I just cannot imagine being married to someone where when
[54:59] Speaker 3: they I'm like, I don't really believe that. Yeah, I mean,
[55:03] Speaker 3: how do you feel about that?
[55:05] Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I definitely trust in his ability to
[55:10] Speaker 2: take me into consideration.
[55:11] Speaker 1: When we're making decisions a good one.
[55:13] Speaker 2: I always know there's never a time where I feel
[55:15] Speaker 2: like he's making a decision without having thought about me
[55:18] Speaker 2: in the mix. Yeah, and I think that's been a
[55:20] Speaker 2: really great feeling because I know that you're not trying
[55:23] Speaker 2: to do anything. He's always wanting to not hurt me.
[55:26] Speaker 2: He always wants to make sure I'm happy. Whether it's
[55:28] Speaker 2: moving somewhere, whether it's having people over for dinner, He's like,
[55:31] Speaker 2: do you want to cook?
[55:32] Speaker 1: Are you sure you're okay? Are you tired?
[55:34] Speaker 2: Like all the decisions, even micro decisions, he's really thoughtful
[55:38] Speaker 2: about the way that he makes them. And so through
[55:41] Speaker 2: having seen how he's made the big decisions like moving
[55:44] Speaker 2: to the micro decisions like having people over, Yeah, it's
[55:47] Speaker 2: been a great indication for.
[55:49] Speaker 1: Me to now know you know what you make the decision.
[55:50] Speaker 2: I trust that you can make it, and I know
[55:52] Speaker 2: that you're thinking of me when doing it.
[55:54] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[55:55] Speaker 3: I think you're talking about a really important point, which
[55:57] Speaker 3: is like when we feel like our partner has our back,
[55:59] Speaker 3: we can really lower our defenses when we feel like
[56:02] Speaker 3: I need to fight for myself because you're fighting for yourself.
[56:05] Speaker 3: I think that those couples have more problems because it's
[56:09] Speaker 3: kind of like an adversarial relationship instead of believing that
[56:12] Speaker 3: we're a team and we have a common goal. So
[56:14] Speaker 3: it sounds like you and Jay just really you feel
[56:16] Speaker 3: very safe and protected by the fact that you're always
[56:19] Speaker 3: he's always considering you.
[56:21] Speaker 1: Yes exactly? Do you always Okay? So you've had a
[56:24] Speaker 1: first date.
[56:25] Speaker 2: I think people struggle to know whether they should go
[56:26] Speaker 2: on a second date if they're unsure about the person.
[56:29] Speaker 2: What's your opinion on second dates?
[56:31] Speaker 3: So when I wrote my book, I said that the
[56:33] Speaker 3: second date should be the default, And that was really
[56:36] Speaker 3: influenced by this idea of defaults, that in general, we
[56:40] Speaker 3: can get people to take different behavior by just saying,
[56:42] Speaker 3: instead of deciding every time, just make a rule. And
[56:45] Speaker 3: so it's like, when you make the default that people
[56:48] Speaker 3: are organ donors versus that they're not organ donors, well
[56:51] Speaker 3: it really impacts the percentage of people in your population
[56:54] Speaker 3: that are organ donors. So anyway, that was my thinking.
[56:56] Speaker 3: Since the book came out, I feel like that's the
[56:58] Speaker 3: one part of the book that I have got less
[57:00] Speaker 3: passionate about because I feel like, if you truly did
[57:04] Speaker 3: not enjoy the date and you're a busy person and
[57:06] Speaker 3: you're like I felt zero percent interested in them, it's
[57:10] Speaker 3: not going to go from zero percent to connection. So
[57:13] Speaker 3: I don't think people need to make the second date
[57:15] Speaker 3: the default. Instead, I recommend that they ask themselves those
[57:18] Speaker 3: post date eight questions after each one. And what you're
[57:22] Speaker 3: looking for is if it's someone where you feel somewhat
[57:25] Speaker 3: interested in them but not head over heels, do it
[57:28] Speaker 3: after the first date, see them again, do it after
[57:30] Speaker 3: the second date. Are you finding yourself more interested in them?
[57:33] Speaker 3: Did you have an even better time? Because some of
[57:35] Speaker 3: the best people out there are these slow burned people
[57:39] Speaker 3: that you like more and more each time. I feel
[57:42] Speaker 3: like my husband, by the time that we started dating,
[57:44] Speaker 3: we'd known each other technically for eight years. It's like
[57:47] Speaker 3: he got better over time, and so you need the
[57:50] Speaker 3: post date eight to sort of see the trend. But
[57:52] Speaker 3: if you're zero percent interested in someone like I think
[57:55] Speaker 3: you can call it no.
[57:55] Speaker 1: Waste of time. Okay, get to know.
[57:57] Speaker 2: I have questions from people, some questions in lots of people.
[58:02] Speaker 2: I mean, most people are looking for a spark. They
[58:04] Speaker 2: want that chemistry, they want their butterflies in their stomach.
[58:06] Speaker 2: And in your book you say, f the spark. So
[58:09] Speaker 2: I'd love to pick your brain on that.
[58:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, so we all know what the spark is, right,
[58:14] Speaker 3: It's that feeling of chemistry and butterflies, and it feels great,
[58:16] Speaker 3: and the spark is real. I definitely meet people and
[58:19] Speaker 3: feel the spark. So I'm not saying that it's always
[58:21] Speaker 3: a bad thing or that it doesn't exist. What I
[58:23] Speaker 3: am saying is that people have become too focused on
[58:26] Speaker 3: it as the indicator for whether or not they should
[58:28] Speaker 3: see someone again. So I hear people that go on
[58:32] Speaker 3: dates and say she was lovely, we actually had a
[58:35] Speaker 3: lot in common. I'm just not going to see her again.
[58:38] Speaker 3: Why we didn't have the spark. I didn't feel the spark.
[58:41] Speaker 3: And so there's three miss of the spark. The first
[58:45] Speaker 3: one is that if it's meant to be with this person,
[58:48] Speaker 3: you're going to have instant chemistry, and that's not true.
[58:50] Speaker 3: Oftentimes chemistry can build over time. Only eleven percent of
[58:54] Speaker 3: people say that they feel love at first sight. So
[58:57] Speaker 3: just because you didn't feel exactly when you met them
[58:59] Speaker 3: doesn't mean that by the end of the day, when
[59:01] Speaker 3: they're talking about their family and they really light up,
[59:03] Speaker 3: that you won't feel it right. The second myth is
[59:05] Speaker 3: that if you feel the spark, it's a good thing,
[59:08] Speaker 3: and we also know that that's not always true. Sometimes
[59:10] Speaker 3: people are just very sparky. They give that feeling to everyone.
[59:13] Speaker 3: I think you might be married to someone very sparky,
[59:16] Speaker 3: and so it doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but
[59:19] Speaker 3: it means be aware that that might be more about
[59:21] Speaker 3: who the person is than the dynamic between the two
[59:23] Speaker 3: of you. And actually, sometimes what we feel is chemistry
[59:27] Speaker 3: is actually anxiety and it's alarm bells in our brains
[59:30] Speaker 3: saying they're playing hot and cold. You don't know how
[59:33] Speaker 3: they feel about you. And then the third myth is
[59:35] Speaker 3: that if you have a spark, the relationship is viable
[59:38] Speaker 3: and a lot of times people meet the right way,
[59:41] Speaker 3: feeling like we had this amazing rom comp moment. Are
[59:45] Speaker 3: we mat is so romantic? And it's like, yes, but
[59:47] Speaker 3: don't stay in the wrong relationship because you met the
[59:50] Speaker 3: right way.
[59:51] Speaker 2: Mm okay, oh my god. The myths of the spark,
[59:53] Speaker 2: I feel like that's going to be a good one
[59:54] Speaker 2: for me. But to hear, oh okay, when someone is
[59:58] Speaker 2: seeing other people, how long should you be dating someone
[1:00:02] Speaker 2: for while they're also seeing other people, Like when it's
[1:00:05] Speaker 2: time to say, okay, it's time for us to be exclusive.
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. So the what are we talk or the define
[1:00:11] Speaker 3: the relationship talk? I think it can depend on what
[1:00:13] Speaker 3: your goals are. So for some people, they're saying, I'm
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: okay with us dating other people, but if we're gonna
[1:00:19] Speaker 3: have sex, I want to know that we're sexually exclusive,
[1:00:22] Speaker 3: or I want to know that we're exclusively dating, but
[1:00:25] Speaker 3: I don't need label. So I think that the spurs
[1:00:27] Speaker 3: step is for someone to figure out on their own
[1:00:29] Speaker 3: what are they looking for at this stage in their life,
[1:00:32] Speaker 3: and then talk to their person and see if they're
[1:00:34] Speaker 3: on the same page. Also to share from a place
[1:00:37] Speaker 3: of hey, like I'm ready to delete hinge, what about you?
[1:00:41] Speaker 3: And the other person might say no, I'm not there yet,
[1:00:43] Speaker 3: and then you get to decide, well I can keep
[1:00:46] Speaker 3: dating them, or I can keep waiting or not. So
[1:00:49] Speaker 3: I think people often delay that conversation because they're afraid
[1:00:52] Speaker 3: about the answer they're going to get. But instead you
[1:00:54] Speaker 3: should try to get the data that you need.
[1:00:56] Speaker 2: Yes, prom date versus life partner? Tell me more about
[1:01:00] Speaker 2: when people pick the prom date versus the life.
[1:01:03] Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know if you went to a prom.
[1:01:05] Speaker 1: I didn't go to a problem, but I but I
[1:01:07] Speaker 1: could I understood the type of person.
[1:01:10] Speaker 3: Yeah, the prom dating, you're you're sixteen or seventeen years old,
[1:01:14] Speaker 3: you're finding somebody cute in your Spanish class. You're saying,
[1:01:17] Speaker 3: you know, do you want to dance the night away
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: with me, take some pictures, have a kiss at the
[1:01:21] Speaker 3: end of the night. That is just a completely different
[1:01:24] Speaker 3: calculation than who you want to marry. And so I
[1:01:26] Speaker 3: think for too long people keep dating the fun prom
[1:01:31] Speaker 3: date person, and then they don't get the results they
[1:01:34] Speaker 3: want as they get older, and maybe the person won't commit,
[1:01:36] Speaker 3: or they're not aligned in their values, and at a
[1:01:39] Speaker 3: certain point you need to make a conscious choice towards
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: the life partner and really think about who is the
[1:01:45] Speaker 3: person that I want to build a life with. Who
[1:01:47] Speaker 3: is the person that will pick up my kid from
[1:01:50] Speaker 3: the dentist when I'm away, or you know what we
[1:01:53] Speaker 3: talked about. I can make hard decisions with them. I
[1:01:55] Speaker 3: want to grow old with them. And so for people
[1:01:58] Speaker 3: who are getting the same results over and over, it's
[1:02:01] Speaker 3: really about understanding you might need to make that shift
[1:02:04] Speaker 3: from prom date to life partner.
[1:02:06] Speaker 2: Yes, okay, these are questions from the audience. I was
[1:02:11] Speaker 2: in a relationship for twelve years. Now I'm happy single.
[1:02:14] Speaker 2: I don't know if I ever want to date again?
[1:02:15] Speaker 2: Is that normal?
[1:02:16] Speaker 1: And okay? Yeah?
[1:02:17] Speaker 3: I mean in general, I try to avoid the word normal.
[1:02:19] Speaker 1: Yeah who am I?
[1:02:20] Speaker 3: Who has anyone else to tell you like what's acceptable
[1:02:23] Speaker 3: or not? And I would just say, like, tune in
[1:02:25] Speaker 3: to yourself, like are you single and happy? Do you
[1:02:28] Speaker 3: feel like all your needs are met and you have
[1:02:29] Speaker 3: a great community and you're having fun and you don't
[1:02:32] Speaker 3: need a partner? That's fine and you can change your
[1:02:34] Speaker 3: mind in a year or two. Or is it that
[1:02:36] Speaker 3: you're afraid of getting hurt and you really do want
[1:02:38] Speaker 3: a partner but you're worried about the steps that will
[1:02:41] Speaker 3: take to get there, or you were hurt in your
[1:02:43] Speaker 3: twelve year relationship, So I think let's worry less about
[1:02:46] Speaker 3: normal and more about what is this person wants?
[1:02:48] Speaker 1: Can you still be talking to X while you're trying
[1:02:50] Speaker 1: to date or find someone new?
[1:02:52] Speaker 3: In general, I think speaking to your ex can be
[1:02:54] Speaker 3: really distracting. If you're someone who's you know, divorced and
[1:02:58] Speaker 3: you have kids together, like, obviously there's nuance there and
[1:03:01] Speaker 3: you have to be in touch with them. But in general,
[1:03:04] Speaker 3: the research shows that when you communicate with an X,
[1:03:07] Speaker 3: or especially when you have sex with an ex, it
[1:03:09] Speaker 3: can be really hard for you to move on, And
[1:03:11] Speaker 3: you might think, well, I'm like still chatting with them,
[1:03:13] Speaker 3: but I'm also moving forward. But research shows that it's
[1:03:15] Speaker 3: much easier to make a decision about kind of the
[1:03:19] Speaker 3: next stage when you're not still looking back at past options.
[1:03:22] Speaker 1: It makes sense. What do you do if he doesn't
[1:03:25] Speaker 1: text you off to your date?
[1:03:26] Speaker 3: This one's hard. I feel like people ask me about
[1:03:28] Speaker 3: texting all the time, and some of it is digital
[1:03:30] Speaker 3: body language. So I would say, can you text them?
[1:03:34] Speaker 3: Can you just say hey, thanks so much, that was
[1:03:35] Speaker 3: a great time, or here's a meme you know that's
[1:03:38] Speaker 3: relevant to what we talked about. It sounds like this
[1:03:40] Speaker 3: person is sort of saying I want them to reach
[1:03:43] Speaker 3: out first, So I might have that person explore like
[1:03:46] Speaker 3: can you reach out first? But then kind of going
[1:03:49] Speaker 3: deeper on the question, I might think about, well, do
[1:03:53] Speaker 3: you feel like you're putting all the effort in? And
[1:03:55] Speaker 3: if you stop putting an effort, then they wouldn't put
[1:03:57] Speaker 3: effort in, And so maybe just pay attention to is
[1:04:00] Speaker 3: this person matching your interest and momentum?
[1:04:03] Speaker 1: Yes? Do opposites attract?
[1:04:05] Speaker 3: This is funny. When I set out to write my book,
[1:04:07] Speaker 3: I made a list of all these things that people
[1:04:12] Speaker 3: say about dating that seem to contradict each other. And
[1:04:14] Speaker 3: I think one of the first ones I wrote was
[1:04:16] Speaker 3: opposites attract, Birds of a feather flock together. And I
[1:04:19] Speaker 3: was like, you can just come up with any of
[1:04:21] Speaker 3: these sayings that support anything, And I would say, sure.
[1:04:24] Speaker 3: Sometimes we like opposites, like I would say my husband
[1:04:27] Speaker 3: are my husband and I are extremely different. And in
[1:04:30] Speaker 3: some ways that's really fun because I admire him, like
[1:04:33] Speaker 3: he's super disciplined. That's not something I'm as good at.
[1:04:36] Speaker 3: And in other ways it's frustrating because I'm like, why
[1:04:38] Speaker 3: don't you want to talk about the Oscar winners for
[1:04:41] Speaker 3: twenty minutes? Why are you not interested in some of
[1:04:43] Speaker 3: the stuff I'm interested in? And so I would say,
[1:04:46] Speaker 3: is like, focus less on opposites attract, and focus more
[1:04:49] Speaker 3: on the things that really matter, like shared vision for life.
[1:04:52] Speaker 3: How that person makes you feel like that's what matters,
[1:04:55] Speaker 3: doesn't matter, like if you're extroverted or introverted.
[1:04:58] Speaker 2: Yes, how do I I love again after getting my
[1:05:01] Speaker 2: heart broken by the person I thought I was going
[1:05:03] Speaker 2: to marry.
[1:05:04] Speaker 3: Oh, I know. I think part of this one is
[1:05:07] Speaker 3: just acknowledging that it's really hard, Like rejection in any
[1:05:11] Speaker 3: realm hurts, but I think especially rejection in romantic relationships
[1:05:15] Speaker 3: where you can truly I guess not if you're polyamorous,
[1:05:18] Speaker 3: but like for people who are monogamous, you can only
[1:05:20] Speaker 3: have one, so it's like you're choosing one partner and
[1:05:22] Speaker 3: you're like, I choose you, and they say, I don't
[1:05:24] Speaker 3: choose you back, So I think just acknowledging, like how
[1:05:26] Speaker 3: heartbreaking it is. There are activities that you can do
[1:05:29] Speaker 3: to feel better after a breakup. So one is making
[1:05:33] Speaker 3: a list of all the things that you can do
[1:05:36] Speaker 3: again now that you couldn't do in your relationship, like
[1:05:39] Speaker 3: these rediscover activities like oh, well he didn't like jazz,
[1:05:42] Speaker 3: so I can go listen to jazz, or he never
[1:05:45] Speaker 3: wanted to visit my family back in Michigan, whatever the
[1:05:47] Speaker 3: thing is. You can also make a list of things
[1:05:50] Speaker 3: about the person that annoyed you. It sounds silly, but
[1:05:52] Speaker 3: these are techniques that have been proven to help people
[1:05:54] Speaker 3: get over it. And then I think, you know, sometimes
[1:05:57] Speaker 3: people say time heals all wounds, but I think we
[1:06:00] Speaker 3: should update that to meaning heels all wound. So put
[1:06:03] Speaker 3: meaning behind it, saying I really got my heart broken.
[1:06:06] Speaker 3: I was really serious about this person. But at the
[1:06:07] Speaker 3: end of the day, I wouldn't have wanted to be
[1:06:09] Speaker 3: in a relationship with someone who didn't want to be
[1:06:11] Speaker 3: in a relationship with me. Making meaning of it and
[1:06:14] Speaker 3: saying it wasn't meant to be, and then thinking about
[1:06:17] Speaker 3: what you do want and when you feel ready putting
[1:06:19] Speaker 3: yourself out there again.
[1:06:21] Speaker 1: Good advice. Is there really such thing as the one?
[1:06:24] Speaker 1: Because I think I lost mine.
[1:06:25] Speaker 3: Oh, I don't believe in the idea of the one.
[1:06:28] Speaker 3: I think we could have love stories and life stories
[1:06:31] Speaker 3: with many different people.
[1:06:33] Speaker 1: Okay, good, So no, not the one you might do.
[1:06:36] Speaker 1: We all have many the ones.
[1:06:37] Speaker 2: Yeah, is the seven year itch in the relationship real?
[1:06:41] Speaker 1: And what?
[1:06:41] Speaker 2: I never actually heard of this till I read this question,
[1:06:43] Speaker 2: and then I asked my team and they're like, oh, yeah,
[1:06:45] Speaker 2: I've heard of this.
[1:06:45] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:06:45] Speaker 3: I was actually looking into something about this recently that
[1:06:48] Speaker 3: sort of suggested that, I mean, this is biological anthropology,
[1:06:52] Speaker 3: which sometimes there's evidence for it and sometimes there's conflicting evidence,
[1:06:55] Speaker 3: but it's sort of suggesting, like, you know, a man
[1:06:58] Speaker 3: and a woman would get together and then they need
[1:07:00] Speaker 3: to be together to raise the child. For the first
[1:07:03] Speaker 3: seven years, and it's like kind of getting the child
[1:07:05] Speaker 3: like past that first age of like being young, and
[1:07:10] Speaker 3: then they're sort of saying there's a biological reason behind this.
[1:07:13] Speaker 3: I don't. I think a lot of this stuff is overstated.
[1:07:15] Speaker 3: I think many couples break up in the first few years.
[1:07:18] Speaker 3: Many couples get way past seven years. So I would say,
[1:07:21] Speaker 3: like a lot of these things are just old wives
[1:07:25] Speaker 3: tales that somebody came up with. And it's like, at
[1:07:27] Speaker 3: the end of the day, like be in a relationship
[1:07:28] Speaker 3: because you and your partner choose to be in it,
[1:07:31] Speaker 3: not don't worry about the amount of time that it's
[1:07:33] Speaker 3: been and.
[1:07:33] Speaker 2: If it's not taking time off. Do you keep give
[1:07:37] Speaker 2: back the ring after a broken engagement?
[1:07:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never had to deal with this one. I
[1:07:44] Speaker 3: think giving it back.
[1:07:45] Speaker 1: What do you think I can give it back? I
[1:07:47] Speaker 1: think that's it's done and they bought the ring for you,
[1:07:52] Speaker 1: it's not happening. Do you want to keep it?
[1:07:55] Speaker 3: I agree?
[1:07:56] Speaker 2: And like a memory, I understand, But at the same time,
[1:07:58] Speaker 2: it's a memory of something that you probably don't want
[1:08:00] Speaker 2: to keep around. It symbolizes something that you probably don't
[1:08:04] Speaker 2: want to keep thinking of marriage in to monogamy, but
[1:08:06] Speaker 2: now partner wants to be polyamorous.
[1:08:09] Speaker 1: Do I stay? Oh?
[1:08:10] Speaker 3: I think that's a personal I'm not anti polyamory at all.
[1:08:13] Speaker 3: I feel like there's a time and a place for it,
[1:08:15] Speaker 3: and that for some people to really what makes them happy.
[1:08:17] Speaker 3: And I've been around a lot of friends who are polly.
[1:08:20] Speaker 3: I think the way that this question is written, it
[1:08:22] Speaker 3: sounds like their partner wants to do it and they
[1:08:24] Speaker 3: don't know if they do. So I would say, read
[1:08:26] Speaker 3: some of the great books, read Opening Up, read the
[1:08:29] Speaker 3: Ethical Slut, decide is this something that you're even interested in?
[1:08:32] Speaker 3: Explore it? Maybe try it on, and then say if
[1:08:35] Speaker 3: it doesn't work out, I want to close the relationship again.
[1:08:38] Speaker 3: So I would say, don't feel pressured to adopt something
[1:08:40] Speaker 3: that you're not comfortable with, but you could explore it.
[1:08:43] Speaker 2: The guy I've been texting with or on a dating
[1:08:45] Speaker 2: up with wants to go out on the first date
[1:08:47] Speaker 2: with his cousins?
[1:08:48] Speaker 1: Is he not interested? Have you ever had that where
[1:08:50] Speaker 1: people want to go on group dates.
[1:08:51] Speaker 3: For the first date. Yeah, I think that's kind of weird.
[1:08:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, weird.
[1:08:55] Speaker 3: Red Flag.
[1:08:55] Speaker 1: I feel like we've answered the rest of these yes.
[1:08:59] Speaker 1: Oh my god, Mush, thank you so much.
[1:09:02] Speaker 2: It has been such a useful conversation and I really
[1:09:05] Speaker 2: hope that this has helped many people on their dating journeys.
[1:09:08] Speaker 1: You're so well spoken. Thank you so much, You've got
[1:09:10] Speaker 1: so much in Thanks for having me.
[1:09:12] Speaker 3: Thank you

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