# How To Get Out Of Debt

An episode of [A Little Bit Richer](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1706157445), 23 May 2024, 18 min.

Audio: https://pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/2e9a850c-e6b9-48c2-afec-a8f8010f70f4/61b6e292-1c73-49e1-81ce-b075010b275f/40fa0cf9-dabe-489d-9e5f-b17200a9b660/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=aee4b1cb-b4f6-4283-99aa-b075010cd6b0

From credit cards, personal loans, car loans, overdrafts, mortgages, owing friends and family, even a phone contract – debt comes in a number of forms and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed. But there are ways to climb out of debt and feel more in control. Here to dive a little bit deeper is friend of the show, Andy Webb – the man behind the award-winning Be Clever With Your Cash blog and host of the Cash Chats podcast. Andy and our host Kia Commodore talk through how to manage debt, strategies to reduce what you owe and prioritise. These are the organisations Andy mentions who can offer free support with debt: Citizens Advice, National Debtline, Step Change and Christians Against Poverty. You can play the podcast and find other useful content on Legal & General’s website: https://www.legalandgeneral.com/podcasts/a-little-bit-richer You can hear more from Andy on his podcast Cash Chats and online: https://becleverwithyourcash.com/ Kia and her guests share their own personal thoughts and opinions in this podcast. These might be different from Legal & General’s take on things. They give financial guidance for a UK audience that’s relevant at the time of recording. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Kia: Hey, it's Kia here. We've discussed how to keep your
[0:03] Kia: credit healthy on the podcast, but today let's dive a
[0:06] Kia: little bit deeper on debt. I want to find out
[0:09] Kia: what you can do to manage it, strategies to reduce
[0:12] Kia: debt, and how we can lessen the shame around it.
[0:14] Kia: Welcome to another episode of A Little Bit Richer, brought
[0:17] Kia: to you by my friends at Legal & General. Here to
[0:20] Kia: help us tread the water is a friend of the
[0:22] Kia: show, Andy Webb, the man behind the award- winning Be
[0:26] Kia: Clever With Your Cash blog and host of the Cash
[0:28] Kia: Chats podcast. Welcome back.
[0:30] Andy Webb: Hey Kia.
[0:31] Kia: So Andy, most of us have some debt and this
[0:35] Kia: could take a number of forms. It could be credit
[0:37] Kia: cards, personal car loans, overdrafts, mortgages, owing friends and family
[0:42] Kia: members. I could go on forever. So let's start with
[0:44] Kia: a common one. It's very easy to rack up debts
[0:47] Kia: on credit cards. So can you give us some tips
[0:50] Kia: to help?
[0:51] Andy Webb: Yeah, I think with credit cards it's easy to assume
[0:53] Andy Webb: that people know how they work, right? But when you
[0:55] Andy Webb: are young, you're getting a credit card for the first
[0:57] Andy Webb: time, you've just got this ability to spend money. So that's
[1:01] Andy Webb: often where a lot of this kind of problems start. And
[1:03] Andy Webb: it's only when you really fully understand it, you go, " Oh
[1:05] Andy Webb: great. Actually I wish I hadn't done that when I
[1:07] Andy Webb: was younger. I hadn't spent so much money." So the
[1:09] Andy Webb: important things to remember here are do try and only
[1:12] Andy Webb: use that credit card for your everyday spending, the things
[1:14] Andy Webb: you can spend money on anyway. Don't get tempted to
[1:16] Andy Webb: buy that extra thing. " Oh, I'll deal with it later
[1:18] Andy Webb: on. I sort it out later," because if you don't
[1:20] Andy Webb: sort it out when that statement comes through, then you're going
[1:24] Andy Webb: to get charged interest and there might be fees as
[1:26] Andy Webb: well if you miss payments, and that's where those debts
[1:28] Andy Webb: start to rack up because not only are you getting
[1:30] Andy Webb: charged interest on your purchase, then the next month if
[1:33] Andy Webb: you don't clear it again, you'll get interest on that
[1:35] Andy Webb: purchase, any new spending and interest on the interest. So
[1:38] Andy Webb: it all really, really can add up. So try to
[1:40] Andy Webb: avoid doing that. There is a simple thing you can
[1:43] Andy Webb: do to make sure you don't forget to spend it
[1:45] Andy Webb: and you do clear that full amount, and that's just setting
[1:47] Andy Webb: up a direct debit from your current account to the
[1:50] Andy Webb: credit card company, ideally for that full amount, and that
[1:52] Andy Webb: means that it'll be cleared. But there is also a risk
[1:56] Andy Webb: that comes with this a little bit and it's double
[1:57] Andy Webb: spending. I don't know if you've had this before where
[2:00] Andy Webb: so you've got something on a credit card, you know
[2:01] Andy Webb: it's on there, but when you look at your current
[2:03] Andy Webb: account balance, you see there's all this cash there and
[2:06] Andy Webb: you don't really account for the fact that it has already been
[2:08] Andy Webb: spent. So you spend it on other stuff and then the
[2:10] Andy Webb: bill comes through, money's not there.
[2:12] Kia: Yes, absolutely.
[2:14] Andy Webb: So that's often where the problems start. So a little
[2:16] Andy Webb: hack that I like to suggest to people is every
[2:18] Andy Webb: time you spend on the credit card, or as soon
[2:21] Andy Webb: as, maybe you might want to do it every week or
[2:22] Andy Webb: something, but you transfer the money out of that current
[2:25] Andy Webb: account into if you've got an account from Starling or
[2:28] Andy Webb: Monzo, they have these pots and spaces, or maybe it
[2:30] Andy Webb: can be a completely separate current account. You transfer the
[2:33] Andy Webb: money over there so it's ring- fenced. You know when
[2:36] Andy Webb: that bill comes through, you absolutely can afford it. And
[2:39] Andy Webb: then you really understand actually what the balance on your
[2:41] Andy Webb: current account is, that is actually what you've got. So those
[2:43] Andy Webb: kind of things can help you stop it getting unmanageable
[2:46] Andy Webb: and keeping on top of it.
[2:47] Kia: I like the fact that you said just use it for everyday
[2:50] Kia: spending because it reminds me of when I got my
[2:51] Kia: first ever credit card at 20. Arguably I knew better,
[2:55] Kia: didn't do better, and I applied for two credit cards,
[2:58] Kia: Andy, £ 1, 000 limit each. Can you imagine that? And
[3:00] Kia: even though I knew don't go crazy, it's not your
[3:02] Kia: money, you can guess what I did. I went, I racked
[3:05] Kia: up that money and I spent the whole 2000 on ... I
[3:08] Kia: couldn't even tell you what I spent it on. I don't have proof of
[3:10] Kia: what I spent it on. I don't have anything to
[3:11] Kia: show for it. But that was a very expensive lesson
[3:15] Kia: on how to actually use credit cards properly. So it's
[3:18] Kia: having a plan for paying it back. It is understanding
[3:21] Kia: the compounding of interest that can happen so you end
[3:24] Kia: up paying more than what you initially borrowed. So I'm
[3:26] Kia: glad that you covered that. But I also want to touch
[3:28] Kia: on another line of credit that is getting very popular
[3:31] Kia: now and that's Buy Now, Pay Later. I think that
[3:33] Kia: is something that's boomed in the last couple of years
[3:37] Kia: and is very much so accessible, and I see a
[3:38] Kia: lot of young people especially leaning into that. So can
[3:41] Kia: you give us a bit more insight into Buy Now,
[3:43] Kia: Pay Later as well?
[3:43] Andy Webb: Yeah, I mean it's huge, isn't it? And every time
[3:45] Andy Webb: you go to a checkout it's there and sometimes they
[3:47] Andy Webb: push you towards it a little bit, use this one over
[3:49] Andy Webb: some of the other options. And a lot of the big
[3:51] Andy Webb: companies now, there's cards. So you can Buy Now, Pay
[3:54] Andy Webb: Later everything. It doesn't just have to be online. And
[3:57] Andy Webb: for those, I mean everyone knows this, but this is
[3:58] Andy Webb: where you split your payment into. It varies by provider
[4:02] Andy Webb: and a lot of the time the shorter ones are interest
[4:05] Andy Webb: free, which is no bad thing if you need to
[4:07] Andy Webb: spread the cost of something out of a short space
[4:09] Andy Webb: of time, because it helps you with those bigger expenses.
[4:12] Andy Webb: But a lot of the time when they're longer than say
[4:14] Andy Webb: three months, then interest gets charged on that. Not everyone's
[4:17] Andy Webb: always aware of that. But I think the big danger
[4:19] Andy Webb: with Buy Now, Pay Later is getting carried away, a
[4:21] Andy Webb: bit like you talked about just now with those credit
[4:23] Andy Webb: cards, originally you're spending here, you're spending there. One thing
[4:26] Andy Webb: on Buy Now, Pay Later, it doesn't matter because I get paid in
[4:29] Andy Webb: two weeks time and then I have enough to cover it. But
[4:31] Andy Webb: then you put something else on Buy Now, Pay Later
[4:33] Andy Webb: and something else on Buy Now, Pay Later. And you
[4:35] Andy Webb: end up with this cycle of stuff that next time
[4:37] Andy Webb: you want to buy something, you don't have the money
[4:39] Andy Webb: to pay for it because you're still paying off the
[4:41] Andy Webb: stuff on Buy Now, Pay Later from the previous month
[4:43] Andy Webb: and you get caught in this kind of circle. And
[4:46] Andy Webb: if your situation changes, you lose your job maybe potentially
[4:50] Andy Webb: something like that or a big emergency kind of cost comes
[4:52] Andy Webb: along so you don't have the cash even to cover
[4:54] Andy Webb: the ones you thought you could cover, well you're committed
[4:57] Andy Webb: to it and you're committed to 10, 20 of these. That's
[4:59] Andy Webb: how prevalent they are, and you can get on anything.
[5:02] Andy Webb: So again, it's coming back to what we said on
[5:04] Andy Webb: credit cards, and this is true really for any kind
[5:06] Andy Webb: of credit, it's only using it for stuff that you
[5:08] Andy Webb: know if you can't afford it right now, you know
[5:11] Andy Webb: that when you get paid next that you will have
[5:13] Andy Webb: the money to cover that and it is for stuff
[5:15] Andy Webb: that you need. It's not just luxuries and stuff. If
[5:18] Andy Webb: you want a luxury, save up for it is the
[5:21] Andy Webb: best way of doing it. I know in practice that
[5:22] Andy Webb: doesn't always work but it's something to try and aim
[5:24] Andy Webb: for at least.
[5:24] Kia: Absolutely. And I want to touch on something you just mentioned
[5:27] Kia: there, and it's talking about uncontrollable debt or out of
[5:31] Kia: control debt. So how would you define a debt that
[5:34] Kia: is unmanageable or out of control?
[5:36] Andy Webb: Yeah. I think there are a few kind of warning
[5:38] Andy Webb: signs out there that people should be keeping an eye
[5:40] Andy Webb: for. And this is if you are regularly late with
[5:44] Andy Webb: your bills, not because of mismanagement and forgetting to do
[5:47] Andy Webb: it. It's because you don't have the money coming through
[5:49] Andy Webb: until. I need to waiting up a couple of weeks,
[5:51] Andy Webb: then I can pay it. Or the next stage of
[5:53] Andy Webb: that is you're having to borrow money to cover other
[5:56] Andy Webb: already borrowed money, so you get new debt to cover
[5:58] Andy Webb: debt. Again, they're all kind of sign of things that,
[6:00] Andy Webb: yes, you might be able to fix it just by
[6:03] Andy Webb: changing how you budget, but it might be a sign
[6:05] Andy Webb: of like these are going to get out of control. So
[6:08] Andy Webb: they're kind of important things to look for there. Also
[6:10] Andy Webb: things like paying for essentials with any kind of borrowing.
[6:13] Andy Webb: So whether that is your supermarket shopping on a credit
[6:16] Andy Webb: card or even Buy Now, Pay Later, you can get
[6:18] Andy Webb: your groceries on Buy Now, Pay Later if that is
[6:20] Andy Webb: something which is a regular occurrence. And the reason for
[6:24] Andy Webb: that is because your other debts are eating up all
[6:26] Andy Webb: your money. Again, that's a sign, look, you need to
[6:28] Andy Webb: do something about those other debts if you aren't already.
[6:31] Andy Webb: And there's also not just money aspects you need to
[6:34] Andy Webb: be aware of that debts could be a problem. There's a psychological aspect
[6:37] Andy Webb: as well. If you are losing sleep because you're worried
[6:40] Andy Webb: about the debts, if you are avoiding opening up the
[6:43] Andy Webb: post or the email or whatever it might be, because
[6:45] Andy Webb: you know what's in there isn't good, then again that's
[6:49] Andy Webb: a sign that you need to do something because that's
[6:51] Andy Webb: going to have an impact on your mental health.
[6:53] Kia: Absolutely. For anyone who has debt and they feel like
[6:58] Kia: it's starting to become a problem, where should they start?
[7:02] Kia: Because I know some people might have, I might have
[7:04] Kia: two credit cards, I might have an overdraft, I might have
[7:06] Kia: a loan. And it just feels like they are almost
[7:09] Kia: drowning in their debts. So where should they start and is there
[7:13] Kia: a way of prioritizing debts? Is there one that they should
[7:15] Kia: be focusing over another? What does that look like?
[7:17] Andy Webb: Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's a few things here. So
[7:18] Andy Webb: first of all there's the difference between good debt and
[7:21] Andy Webb: bad debt. And it sounds weird to say there's good
[7:23] Andy Webb: debt, right? But without credit, without borrowing, then who's going
[7:28] Andy Webb: to buy a house?
[7:29] Kia: It's true.
[7:29] Andy Webb: Right? Some people, there could be some people out there,
[7:31] Andy Webb: but most of us, if we want a house, we
[7:33] Andy Webb: need a mortgage which is debt, but that's good debt.
[7:36] Andy Webb: But you could say the same about if you need a
[7:37] Andy Webb: car to get to work and you need to have
[7:40] Andy Webb: a car on finance, then again that can be seen
[7:42] Andy Webb: as a good debt in that sense because by having
[7:44] Andy Webb: that debt you are able to earn money.
[7:47] Kia: Exactly.
[7:47] Andy Webb: Careful not to get upsold.
[7:48] Kia: Yes.
[7:49] Andy Webb: And add the alloys and all the extra bits like that, but again that
[7:52] Andy Webb: kind of thing can be a good debt. And then
[7:54] Andy Webb: within the rest of the debts as well you're looking
[7:55] Andy Webb: at, they're not all equal. You might find some are scarier.
[7:59] Andy Webb: You might get some scarier letters from the people saying
[8:02] Andy Webb: you owe us this amount of money and things, but
[8:04] Andy Webb: ultimately there are some which if you don't act on
[8:06] Andy Webb: them, their consequences could be pretty dramatic. And these are
[8:10] Andy Webb: known as priority debts. There are a few of them,
[8:14] Andy Webb: but the key ones here are your mortgage or your
[8:16] Andy Webb: rent. So if you don't pay your mortgage, you don't
[8:19] Andy Webb: pay your rent, ultimately you could lose your home, you could
[8:21] Andy Webb: be out in the streets. So you have to make
[8:22] Andy Webb: sure that is covered before a credit card, before a
[8:25] Andy Webb: loan, anything like that. Your gas and electricity, you could
[8:28] Andy Webb: be cut off if you don't pay that. So again,
[8:30] Andy Webb: you need to make sure, even if it's not making
[8:32] Andy Webb: their payment every single month, it's at least having a
[8:33] Andy Webb: conversation with them because they might be able to help
[8:35] Andy Webb: you with other repayments, but again, you can't just ignore
[8:37] Andy Webb: that because the consequences, you could absolutely argue now that
[8:41] Andy Webb: mobile and broadband are a priority debts because how many
[8:43] Andy Webb: of us are working at home, right?
[8:45] Kia: Exactly.
[8:45] Andy Webb: You lose your internet, you can't work. Again, you can lose
[8:47] Andy Webb: your job if you can't do that. So again, you
[8:49] Andy Webb: want to make sure that these things are covered. And
[8:52] Andy Webb: there are others, but a couple of important ones to
[8:54] Andy Webb: mention here are council tax and TV license. These ones
[8:57] Andy Webb: might not feel so important, but if you don't pay
[9:00] Andy Webb: them and you haven't spoken to the council about the
[9:03] Andy Webb: situation, then you could be taken to court. And then
[9:07] Andy Webb: you get a fine. Now if you can't pay your
[9:08] Andy Webb: council tax bill because you haven't got any money, how are
[9:11] Andy Webb: you going to pay the fine?
[9:12] Kia: Exactly.
[9:12] Andy Webb: And ultimately the consequence down the line is you could
[9:15] Andy Webb: go to jail for that. So obviously that's a priority
[9:18] Andy Webb: again with the others. So they're the ones to really
[9:20] Andy Webb: focus on first of all before the other debts. And
[9:23] Andy Webb: the other ones, you can have conversations with those creditors,
[9:27] Andy Webb: creditors basically with people that you owe money to, and they might
[9:31] Andy Webb: come up with a plan or some kind of way
[9:32] Andy Webb: of you kind of like, " Okay, look, we'll give you
[9:34] Andy Webb: a breathing space maybe," which is where you have a
[9:36] Andy Webb: space of time where no interest is added on, or
[9:39] Andy Webb: you might be able to just pay the minimum on them. I guess
[9:41] Andy Webb: it can be quite expensive and that can be quite scary
[9:43] Andy Webb: because it's getting more and more expensive. They're the ones with a high
[9:46] Andy Webb: interest. But that's the worst that's going to happen. Right?
[9:48] Andy Webb: At least you'll still have a warm home if you
[9:52] Andy Webb: focus on the others.
[9:53] Kia: Yes. I think the thing I love most about what you've said there
[9:56] Kia: is just having that conversation. I think it can get
[10:00] Kia: very overwhelming very quickly if you have a lot of
[10:02] Kia: debts. And like you said, those letters when they come through
[10:04] Kia: the door, it can feel like, " Oh my gosh, everything's
[10:07] Kia: falling on top of me." But if you are struggling
[10:10] Kia: and you haven't told your creditors, they're not going to
[10:12] Kia: know, they're not mind readers. They can't just say, " Oh
[10:14] Kia: this person's struggling, I'm going to put them on payment
[10:15] Kia: plan," if you haven't asked for that. So it is making
[10:18] Kia: that priority, which I really love that you touched on.
[10:20] Kia: When debt becomes unmanageable, what are some strategies that you'd
[10:24] Kia: recommend to clear debt?
[10:26] Andy Webb: First of all, have you got any savings? Because this
[10:29] Andy Webb: is the kind of thing, a weird thing. If I've got debt, why
[10:31] Andy Webb: would I have savings? But it's actually quite common that
[10:32] Andy Webb: people build up an emergency fund because they feel comfortable
[10:36] Andy Webb: having that pot of cash there if an emergency happens.
[10:38] Andy Webb: But the problem is, if you're getting any interest on
[10:41] Andy Webb: that savings account, the rate is going to be way,
[10:43] Andy Webb: way, way lower than what you be paying on those
[10:46] Andy Webb: debts. So you're much better off using those savings to
[10:50] Andy Webb: wipe out as much of those debts as you possibly can.
[10:52] Andy Webb: If an emergency comes along later on and that's a
[10:54] Andy Webb: big if, but if it does, you might have to
[10:57] Andy Webb: borrow it for that. But we can deal with that later
[10:59] Andy Webb: on, and it's not going to be any more expensive
[11:01] Andy Webb: of what you're paying right now. So that's the first
[11:02] Andy Webb: thing to do. I mean obvious things about if you
[11:05] Andy Webb: haven't already, just trying to find that budgeting, that extra
[11:08] Andy Webb: bit of money that you've got anywhere that can go
[11:10] Andy Webb: towards those debts rather than other things or potentially trying
[11:12] Andy Webb: to make a bit more cash. It's extra shifts, second
[11:15] Andy Webb: job, selling things, anything to get some more money in
[11:19] Andy Webb: that you can do. I mean that's all quite obvious
[11:20] Andy Webb: stuff but it's worth just mentioning it again. You can
[11:23] Andy Webb: also try getting as much of those debts to 0% as
[11:26] Andy Webb: you can. Credit cards are the big one here, 0% finance,
[11:29] Andy Webb: but there are also 0% overdrafts. That just means that you aren't
[11:32] Andy Webb: getting charged any interest on that debt or at least some of
[11:34] Andy Webb: that debt, which means you can put more money into
[11:36] Andy Webb: clearing down faster. Even looking at getting a lower APR,
[11:40] Andy Webb: which is like the interest rates potentially a better way of
[11:43] Andy Webb: reducing the rates not to zero, but at least it's
[11:45] Andy Webb: going to be lower cost. But do look into that, particularly with things
[11:47] Andy Webb: like consolidation loans, they're not always great. So just research
[11:50] Andy Webb: those a little bit. Let's assume you've done all of
[11:52] Andy Webb: that but you've still got some debts left over, multiple
[11:55] Andy Webb: debts. There are a couple of strategies that are pretty
[11:57] Andy Webb: popular that are worth thinking about and they've got weird
[12:00] Andy Webb: names. So there's avalanche and there's snowballing. So avalanching is technically,
[12:06] Andy Webb: mathematically is the best approach to go for because it
[12:09] Andy Webb: means ultimately you are going to pay less interest, it's
[12:11] Andy Webb: going to cost you less money. And this is where
[12:14] Andy Webb: you target as much of your money as you possibly
[12:16] Andy Webb: can on the most expensive debt, the one that has
[12:18] Andy Webb: the highest rate of interest and all the others, you
[12:21] Andy Webb: just go down to the minimum. And the idea is
[12:23] Andy Webb: you clear that one as fast as you can and then move
[12:25] Andy Webb: to the next one with the next highest rate of
[12:27] Andy Webb: interest. Okay, so mathematically you do that, you'll be charged
[12:29] Andy Webb: as interest. But what a lot of people find more
[12:33] Andy Webb: motivating is snowballing, and this is where you focus on
[12:37] Andy Webb: the smallest debt first of all because that's more achievable, right?
[12:42] Kia: Mm- hmm.
[12:42] Andy Webb: So you've got six debts say. You get rid of
[12:44] Andy Webb: one, then you've only got five. And that's for a lot
[12:47] Andy Webb: of people that makes them think, " Right-
[12:48] Kia: Keeps you motivation to keep going.
[12:49] Andy Webb: Yeah. And it's called snowballing because basically you've got rid
[12:51] Andy Webb: of one and the next time you move on, the next
[12:53] Andy Webb: one's big one, and end up with just basically one
[12:55] Andy Webb: debt at the end and hopefully you get rid of
[12:58] Andy Webb: that and then you're debt free. So they're both two
[12:59] Andy Webb: things to consider if you're doing this yourself.
[13:02] Kia: So if someone is struggling, where can they go and
[13:06] Kia: what can they do?
[13:07] Andy Webb: Okay. So if you are struggling and you don't think
[13:10] Andy Webb: you can do this on your own, because a lot
[13:12] Andy Webb: of this stuff might come down to some intense budgeting.
[13:14] Andy Webb: We're just looking about where your money could be better
[13:17] Andy Webb: spent. I'm sure a lot of people in this situation, they've
[13:19] Andy Webb: already done that, but it's worth having a look again.
[13:21] Andy Webb: Then there are some places you can go to who
[13:24] Andy Webb: will either guide you through that or take you through
[13:27] Andy Webb: some of the next steps. And we won't go into detail
[13:29] Andy Webb: on the next steps here because there's too much to
[13:31] Andy Webb: talk about, but there's things like debt relief orders, potentially
[13:34] Andy Webb: bankruptcy, IVOs, which is individual voluntary agreement, these kind of
[13:39] Andy Webb: things. They can take you through them and help you
[13:41] Andy Webb: know what's going to be the best for you. Now it's
[13:44] Andy Webb: very easy to think, " I'll just go on google," right?
[13:45] Kia: Mm- hmm.
[13:46] Andy Webb: " I'll type in debt support or debt help." And
[13:49] Andy Webb: that is one of the worst things you can do
[13:51] Andy Webb: because the people right at the top, they've paid for
[13:54] Andy Webb: their result to be the top of the results, and
[13:57] Andy Webb: often they're really cheeky and they'll have their names really
[13:59] Andy Webb: similar to some of the good guys, which we'll come
[14:01] Andy Webb: to in a minute. But what they're going to do,
[14:03] Andy Webb: these companies, is they are doing this for profit. And
[14:06] Andy Webb: I'm sure not all of them, but a lot of
[14:07] Andy Webb: them will steer you towards a solution which makes them
[14:11] Andy Webb: money, not necessarily what's best for you. So don't do
[14:14] Andy Webb: that. Instead, I would go to Money Helper, which is
[14:18] Andy Webb: the government's kind of finance website. And they've got a
[14:20] Andy Webb: debt location tool they call it, right? Snappily title, but
[14:23] Andy Webb: anyway, that's what it's called. And you put your postcode
[14:25] Andy Webb: in and they will come up with a list of
[14:28] Andy Webb: either face- to- face place if you want to go
[14:30] Andy Webb: and chat to someone face- to- face or if you
[14:31] Andy Webb: want to get on the phone or do a web chat,
[14:33] Andy Webb: a list of people you can talk to where it's
[14:35] Andy Webb: free, independent and impartial advice. So they won't judge you,
[14:40] Andy Webb: they'll just take you through the steps. Some of the
[14:42] Andy Webb: big names there, Citizens Advice, National Debt Line, Step Change,
[14:46] Andy Webb: Christians Against Poverty, there are a number out there who
[14:49] Andy Webb: will help you, but I would go to that Money Helper website
[14:51] Andy Webb: first of all, and they will direct you into the
[14:53] Andy Webb: places for more advanced help if you feel you need it.
[14:56] Kia: Absolutely, and I'm glad you said that because I've seen, especially
[14:59] Kia: on social media, I've seen a lot of ads where they say, " Come
[15:01] Kia: and we can help you resolve all your debts." So it
[15:04] Kia: is having your wits about you and make sure you
[15:06] Kia: go into the right places. But you've shared where people
[15:09] Kia: can go. However, we know, you and I know, we
[15:11] Kia: do this as our jobs, that money is a taboo
[15:14] Kia: and debt even more so, is something that people really
[15:16] Kia: do feel ashamed about. So what can people do? Do you
[15:21] Kia: have some suggestions to make it easier for yourself or
[15:24] Kia: someone who has a friend or family member who is
[15:26] Kia: struggling to open that communication around debt?
[15:29] Andy Webb: Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? Like you said, money
[15:31] Andy Webb: is taboo and often people won't talk about any of
[15:34] Andy Webb: it, but particularly when it comes to debt, that kind
[15:36] Andy Webb: of element of shame can come into play. I think
[15:41] Andy Webb: just sitting there on your own suffering in silence is
[15:44] Andy Webb: not going to help you. So really if you can,
[15:47] Andy Webb: finding that trusted friend or family member who you feel
[15:51] Andy Webb: will let you talk about it. I'm like this often.
[15:54] Andy Webb: Someone comes to me a problem, I'll try and help
[15:56] Andy Webb: them and things like that. If that doesn't work for
[15:58] Andy Webb: you, then they just need to talk about it. Because sometimes this
[16:00] Andy Webb: is about just talking about it, getting it out in
[16:01] Andy Webb: the open. Or maybe you have got that person who
[16:04] Andy Webb: you know is pretty good on these things and they
[16:06] Andy Webb: can give you the more practical tips as well, but
[16:08] Andy Webb: find the person that works for you just so it's
[16:11] Andy Webb: out there and you start to talk about it. And
[16:13] Andy Webb: I guess I wouldn't say owning it isn't quite right,
[16:15] Andy Webb: but it just stops becoming this thing you're trying to
[16:19] Andy Webb: get rid of and hide away you from. It's something
[16:21] Andy Webb: that you can actually, right, " I need to do something
[16:24] Andy Webb: about this, I need to take some action."
[16:26] Kia: I agree with that, finding someone. And sometimes not everyone
[16:28] Kia: wants solutions. So many people just want to talk and that's absolutely fine. So
[16:32] Kia: Andy, before we wrap up here, what are your top
[16:34] Kia: three tips help our listeners manage their debts?
[16:37] Andy Webb: First of all, if you have got a number of
[16:38] Andy Webb: debts, it's about prioritizing them. Find out which ones you
[16:41] Andy Webb: really need to focus on without forgetting the others, but
[16:45] Andy Webb: just making sure that you've got the solutions in place
[16:47] Andy Webb: that those big ones don't get forgotten. Then I would
[16:49] Andy Webb: look about motivation. What is the one that's going to
[16:52] Andy Webb: kind of, the way that's going to really make sure
[16:55] Andy Webb: you can take action on this. Because there are different
[16:57] Andy Webb: approaches and everyone's going to work a little bit differently.
[16:59] Andy Webb: It's not going to be easy, but you want to
[17:01] Andy Webb: find the ways that you can see success, you can
[17:03] Andy Webb: see you're getting through it. But ultimately if this isn't
[17:06] Andy Webb: helping and you don't feel you can do this on
[17:08] Andy Webb: your own, it's getting help. Talk to that friend, that
[17:11] Andy Webb: family member, talk to those free, independent and impartial debt
[17:15] Andy Webb: advice charities and they're the ones who kind of all
[17:18] Andy Webb: together that hopefully sees you through all this. And then
[17:20] Andy Webb: we're talking about building wealth once you've got rid of the debts.
[17:23] Kia: Amazing. Thank you so much, Andy. This has been a
[17:26] Kia: really good episode. And hopefully our listeners, if they are
[17:28] Kia: struggling, this is step one and day one for them
[17:31] Kia: to make that change and tackle their debt. So thank
[17:33] Kia: you so, so much. Next time we're helping you get
[17:37] Kia: your dream job. But if there's anything you'd like me
[17:40] Kia: to chat about on future episodes, get in touch via
[17:43] Kia: Legal & General's Instagram and TikTok channels. You can keep up to date
[17:47] Kia: with the show there, get a glimpse behind scenes and
[17:49] Kia: exclusive tips from a range of our experts. I'd love
[17:52] Kia: it if you share the podcast. Tell a mate, leave
[17:55] Kia: a review and help other people start getting a little
[17:58] Kia: bit richer. A Little Bit Richer is brought to you
[18:00] Kia: by Legal & General. Thank you for listening and see you soon.

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