# Louise's story - induced lactation with twins

An episode of [Makes Milk with Emma Pickett: breastfeeding from the beginning to the end](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1697865705), 27 Oct 2026, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2214940/episodes/19984803-louise-s-story-induced-lactation-with-twins.mp3

This episode, I’m delighted to be joined by Louise Corden Burns, a London mum of identical twin girls, to talk about her induced lactation journey. Louise explains how she discovered induced lactation during her wife Meg’s pregnancy, and how hard it was to find relevant, reliable guidance. She describes using a shortened Newman-Goldfarb protocol with the combined pill and domperidone to induce lactation and pumping eight times daily while working. We discuss hospital and community feeding support, exclusionary experiences from professionals, early co-feeding and intense triple feeding with twins, weight-gain concerns prompting more measured bottle feeds and formula top-ups, and how breastfeeding supported bonding, confidence as a non-birthing parent, and eventually weaning as Louise’s medication tapered off. My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here - The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing. You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout. Follow me on Instagram @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com Resources mentioned - Breastfeeding Without Birthing Book https://www.alyssaschnellibclc.com/book Introduction to the Protocols for Induced Lactation -Canadian Breastfeeding Foundation https://www.canadianbreastfeedingfoundation.org/induced/protocols_intro.shtml Kathryn Stagg IBCLC https://kathrynstaggibclc.com/ We're Here! by B J Woodstein https://www.waterstones.com/book/were-here/b-j-woodstein/9781946665546 This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

## Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.
\[00:00:00\] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.
Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.
Today I'm gonna be talking to Louise, that's Louise Corden-Burns from London, who is a mother of twins. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about induced lactation. And if that's not a term you're familiar with, you're in the right place because we're gonna be giving you the finer details of what that was like to experience at the real-life end, and maybe a little bit about some of the, the theory and science behind it as well for anyone who's considering that journey.
Thanks very much for joining me today, Louise. Tell us about your family.
\[00:01:15\] Louise: I live with my wife and our two, uh, 14-month-old twins.
\[00:01:20\] Emma Pickett: And your little twins, who are ... Are they identical girls, is that right?
\[00:01:23\] Louise: They are. They're identical girls, yep.
\[00:01:25\] Emma Pickett: And they've finished breastfeeding. What's the story with where they are right now?
\[00:01:29\] Louise: Yes, they've finished breastfeeding. One of them, um, decided she was done about seven and a half months, uh, the other, around a year. So yeah, they've been off, uh, off breastfeeding for, yeah, uh, what's that? Two, two, three months now.
\[00:01:43\] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you didn't necessarily have the tough thing of weaning them. They just naturally both came to an end in their own, their own steam.
\[00:01:50\] Louise: Yes. Well, definitely, uh, the, the first of them, E, she decided around seven and a half months she was done, so she just stopped, and she is already a very willful little person, as we are learning as we get to know her more. So I don't think we will ever be able to make her do anything she's, she's not interested in.
So hers was a sort of fairly abrupt stop. And actually, uh, it was at a point that we, uh, we, we, we, we were mixed feeding them, as I'm sure you'll hear a lot more about. Um, but it was at a point also that we were, uh, went up a teat size on the bottles they were using, uh, for their formula. So, um, yeah, I wonder if that also might have had something to do with it.
\[00:02:30\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That, that would make sense based on what I know about little people weaning- Mm ... and the ages that weaning normally happens. Normally wh- when there's a mixed feeding situation, little people can start to say, "Yeah, you know what? This, this is easier. I'm just happy to stick with this. I'm good. I'm fine."
Um, and obviously little people have a very different relationship to the breast, so some little people are ... And I think it's probably more likely in twin situations. Um, some little people, it's, it's feeding, it's nutrition, it's milk, um, there's other places to get cuddles, there's other pe- places to get connections, and, you know, therefore, when there's faster milk and milk coming out from somewhere else, "Well, we're fine with that, thank you very much."
So, you know, some people might describe it as a bottle preference, but, you know, th- those terms aren't necessarily pinned down anywhere. And yeah, I think your, I think your instinct on that probably makes sense. And then I guess with A, who went on a bit longer, w- do you think that was the same sort of story that she just was happy with milk elsewhere?
\[00:03:24\] Louise: Um, well, with her it was a bit more of, uh, a sort of slight, um, tapering down on the medication I was taking, which was helping me, uh, produce milk, and it was also she had started to sleep through the night a bit more. So at that point I was doing, um I would feed her any time she woke up in the night, and also then do a kind of a morning feed and possibly an afternoon feed.
But actually for the timing of their naps, that was kind of reducing. So yes, it was around the point that she was more reliably sleeping through the night, which was, uh, an absolute godsend for our sanity overall. Um, but actually it sort of made, it made, it sort of made sense to be sort of, yeah, tapering that off.
Um- Okay ... and I, I think because I'd been so, um, 'cause it had been such a, a sort of a, a journey and, um, a big experience overall for me to be breastfeeding, I wanted to have a bit more of a, a, me taking more of an active approach and sort of deliberately kind of reducing down on my medication with a view- Yeah
that that would likely mean that she was no longer interested as the sort of supply dropped a bit.
\[00:04:31\] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes sense. So that was domperidone you were taking, was it?
\[00:04:35\] Louise: Yes,
\[00:04:35\] Emma Pickett: that's right. Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk, talk a bit more about that as we go through the beginning of your journey, and yeah, it makes sense if she's sleeping through, and yep, 12-month-old babies can sleep through the night.
Mm-hmm. Um, um, don't know if it's lasted, but it can certainly happen sometimes. Um- And so yeah, it makes sense that your supply would possibly dropped a little and, and therefore she was happy to get milk elsewhere. Thank you for talking about the ending first. Um- Sure ... I think that can be really helpful.
Let's go back to the beginning. Mm-hmm. So you're married to the lovely Meg- Mm-hmm ... and you decide you want to have a family. Just to preface this by saying that obviously I'm gonna ask personal questions about your conception and how you created your family, and I hope that feels okay. Tell me if it doesn't.
Mm-hmm. How did you make a decision about who was going to birth, and tell me about how the conversations around breastfeeding first started.
\[00:05:18\] Louise: I think we went into it, um, not be, or sort of quite open to that it could be either of us. If anything really, I'd probably come into it, I, um- Uh, I'm bisexual. I'd, I'd kind of, uh, only really came out in my 30s.
And, uh, I think when I was younger, you know, you just didn't see any same-sex couples around. You didn't see ... There was just nothing in the media, nothing in books, um, definitely nothing kind of in school. It was, I, I was, the whole of my schooling was under, um, Section 28, which as you and some of the listeners may know was a- Yeah
was a kind of law in the UK which made it illegal for any schools to, to include any kind of diverse, um, sort of same-sex couples or, or talk about same-sex attraction in any kind of curriculum.
\[00:06:09\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Can I just pause for a second and say I was teaching during- Oh,
\[00:06:12\] Louise: really? Oh,
\[00:06:13\] Emma Pickett: interesting ... during Clause 28, Section 28.
And, um- Oh ... a- and, um, a modern young person listening will be like, I, I'm, I hope everybody knows about Section 28 and is aware of it in our history. Mm. You know, you are not old. I mean, I'm not that old. We lived in an era where you literally could not have a picture book on the shelf in a classroom that showed a same-sex couple.
If it came up in conversation and a child asked a question, you were supposed to shut it down. Obviously, most of us would not have done that because that would have not been okay. Um, but it's just, it's hard for anyone to imagine what it must have been like to grow up in a classroom- Mm ... you know, as somebody who wasn't straight, how that must have felt and- Mm
and the impact that has. And I know we're here to talk about your parenting and breastfeeding journey, but I think we just have to take a moment to say, um, you know, progress is not linear.
\[00:07:01\] Louise: Mm.
\[00:07:01\] Emma Pickett: And to assume that, you know, oh, that was the history, and now it's all super and lovely, and we're heading in the right direction.
No, we can absolutely see how we live in a world where we mustn't take that progress for, for granted and, and rights still have to be very much protected.
\[00:07:14\] Louise: Absolutely, yes. And yeah, we're seeing, uh, rollbacks of those in, uh, lots of countries across the world as well. So yeah, definitely need to, um, to be aware of it.
\[00:07:23\] Emma Pickett: So when you were growing up then, you just, you obviously w- weren't yet out or, or aware necessarily. I mean, do you, presumably you had a sense that maybe you weren't necessarily gonna be straight? I don't know. I don't really know what to ask personal questions to- ... about what you want, your journey, about your own sexuality.
But so you were thinking, "I probably will get married to a bloke," when you were growing up. Yeah. Is that what you probably thought?
\[00:07:44\] Louise: Yes. I, I knew I'd, I'd wanted a family, and I, I think given that the only families I ever saw around were straight couples, that's sort of how I assumed I would have a family, uh, with a man.
So I think on which, uh, and I guess I'm sort of going into all of that at this point because those kind of deep-seated assumptions you make about kind of what your future might look like, uh, can sort of shape things further on. So when Meg and I got together, um, and then we were talking about a family, I think we sort of assumed that I would be the one who would be pregnant and, uh, and carry a baby.
I kind of had assumed I might do breastfeeding. I didn't really know, s- just sort of thought that was the default, you know, and, and I know that that, uh, that's maybe is a slightly unusual position. But, um, you know, those, that was-- those are the sort of assumptions we made going into that. And then we started, um, the sort of IVF process with sort of various tests for both of us, and then we identified I've got a sort of issue with my uterus, which would've meant it was more likely to, to have a, a miscarriage, so m- less, less likely to be able to carry a pregnancy full-term.
And given that even those kind of early stages of IVF were quite, uh, you know, very sort of fraught and it had taken a lot of time and c- and a lot of expense as well, to be honest. We, we had to completely fund everything ourselves 'cause Same-sex couples sort of, i- basically across most of the country aren't entitled to, um, IVF on the NHS.
So yeah, it, it was sort of a, a no-brainer at that point for putting all, all of our eggs in Meg's basket. So, um,
\[00:09:19\] Emma Pickett: that's- Both metaphorically and literally.
\[00:09:21\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:09:22\] Emma Pickett: And so, so you're using Meg's eggs, that's obviously a- Yeah ... se- separate decision. There would've been an option to use your egg, but it, it, using Meg's eggs felt m- m- more straightforward and, and that was the w- what you went with.
\[00:09:32\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:09:33\] Emma Pickett: And when did the concept of induced lactation kinda come into your radar? Was that something you'd always known about?
\[00:09:38\] Louise: No, I hadn't, I didn't know about it at all actually until, um, we were expecting the babies. And then a friend of ours who is in a same-sex relationship herself had mentioned that she'd done that with a, when, when their daughter was born.
And yeah, I hadn't even known that was a thing. Um, so I kind of went to, I asked her lots of questions, and I sort of went away and did a lot of research. And yeah, started to find out a bit more about it, and thought, "Okay, this, this might be a thing that I would be interested in, um, in doing".
\[00:10:09\] Emma Pickett: And was Meg somebody who very much wanted to breastfeed too?
Is that gonna be part of the story of both of you breastfeeding, or was it s- was it you were going to be leading on the feeding? What was her, what was her feelings around breastfeeding? I don't want you to necessarily have to speak on her behalf, but give us the picture. Were you co-feeding? What was happening?
\[00:10:23\] Louise: Yeah, in the early weeks we were co-feeding. Um, I think Meg went into it with an idea that she was, she was keen to give it a go, but she wasn't, um ... I'm sorry, I'm joined by the cat. Um, she wasn't, um- We don't mind a cat sound effect,
\[00:10:35\] Emma Pickett: that's fine.
\[00:10:37\] Louise: Um, she, yeah, keen to give it a go, but she wasn't, um, she hadn't imagined that as a, um, a kind of long-term solution she, she would always want to do.
She was just kind of, let's see what happens. Um, so yeah, open, open to it, and willing, willing to it. But very supportive of, of me wanting to, wanting to do it as well. Um, and her, and sort of helping enable that, whatever that looked like.
\[00:10:59\] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'm trying to ask this without kind of putting thoughts in your head.
Do you think that induced lactation felt important because you weren't going to be birthing? Was that something about coming to terms with your body and what your body was able to do and, and therefore lactating felt significant in a way perhaps it may not to somebody who had previously birthed or was able to birth, or were you just somebody that felt, "No, no, no, I'm
This is practical. My body can make milk. Let's just go for it"? What do you think was going on in your head during that process?
\[00:11:28\] Louise: Um, I think it was, it was definitely an e- an element of that, and I guess that's why I was sort of, um, prefacing the how we ended up in our, uh, our kind of fertility journey, um, with me going into it thinking that I might carry the baby.
So when, when I found out about induced lactation, it was then, "Oh, right, well, this would be a way for me to have kind of maybe that, that part of the early motherhood that I had imagined without, you know, s- without being pregnant." Um, so yeah, it felt, uh, very interesting from that perspective and kind of something I was keen to, to kind of pursue.
\[00:12:06\] Emma Pickett: Okay, so for anyone who doesn't know, let's talk a little bit about the kind of the little details around induced lactation. Now, obviously if anyone's thinking about doing this, they're gonna go away and do their own research because there are, I guess there are two different pathways. There is the medication pathway, and then there are folks who are like, "Well, I don't really wanna take hormonal contraceptions.
I've never had to do that in my life previously," and, or maybe, "I have a medical reason why I don't want t- to go down the medical route," so ... And there are some people who just focus on stimulation and, and pumping. Um, you've, you've touched on the fact that you did go down the medication route. So how early were you in, in Meg's pregnancy when you started to like, "Right, okay.
Time to get stuff doing here. It's time to kind of start doing things"? Talk us through your timeline.
\[00:12:47\] Louise: Um, so I'd only found out about it as a kind of, uh, as a possibility probably about halfway through the pregnancy, and then went away, did a lot of research. It was quite difficult to find ... Well, A, there's not a huge amount of information out there, and the information I did find was very often aimed at people who were in different situations than, than ours.
So for example, um, people who were adopting a baby, uh, and wanted to, to breastfeed it from the start. Or when I was reading about kind of ways to, to increase your, um, milk supply if you'd sort of started on whichever route for inducing lactation, lots of, uh, that advice was also aimed at people who'd maybe had a premature baby that was in NICU, or they were separated from it for some reason.
And, and all of the advice was about how to increase your supply by, you know, look at photos of the baby when ... Or, um, be close to the baby as you are pumping an- or, and all of those. So there was sort of lots of information I was coming across that just in no way was applicable to our situation, where it was there is no baby here yet.
Yeah, it ... I didn't find any real information about- same-sex couples who had induced lactation, except a kind of a couple of, uh, anecdotal, oh, a friend of a friend did this, or, um, a few, you know, sort of Reddit type posts. There wasn't, there wasn't really any official sources. So, um, but the information that I was finding, for one I found
I bought a book online which was, uh, called Breastfeeding Without Birthing.
\[00:14:19\] Emma Pickett: Yes. That is a well-known book in this field. We'll put the, a link to that in the show notes. Yeah.
\[00:14:24\] Louise: Great. Yeah, and I, I read that cover to cover. It was, um ... That was, that was a really useful resource for giving an overview about the different ways, both kind of medicated and non-medicated, that I could go about it.
Um, the most straightforward of those is sort of wait for a baby to arrive and put it on your boob, and then, um, after a while you'll, you will ... There's sort of the, the physical action and the, and the hormones of being close to a baby that will, that will start to produce milk. Although all of these different routes and sort of different herbs and things you can take, um, both before and, uh, once the baby has arrived, these were all provided with some information about the, the likelihood that they would work, and, and lots of them were caveated by, "This might make a small, a small difference, um, but Overall, you probably shouldn't expect to get a large supply or a full mi- milk supply.
But if your intention is around bonding with the baby, this might be, uh, this might be everything that you need. So yeah, I found that book a really good starting point. Um, I had sort of ... One of the routes it suggests in that book is the, this kind of most well-known kind of medicated route that you hinted at, um, which is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol, after the Canadian, um, doctors who, uh, sort of put it together.
And that involves, uh, sort of taking a hormonal pill first, uh, and taking that in conjunction with this, this drug called domperidone.
\[00:15:44\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So can I just pause you for a second- Mm-hmm ... for anyone who's not familiar with the Newman-Goldfarb protocol. So their theory, and it's not based on massive amounts of testing 'cause there's not a huge population of people who are doing, you know, research in this area, but the idea is you take the combined contraceptive pill that contains both estrogen and progesterone.
You take that almost to sort of tell your body you're pregnant in a way. You're kind of mimicking the pregnancy hormones. And then you stop taking that, and you start taking domperidone, which is a drug that is not licensed for this purpose. It's actually licensed for use in s- gastrointestinal issues.
It's used for reflux treatment. It's often taken by elderly patients that have reflux. But one of the side effects of domperidone is it produces additional prolactin, and prolactin hormone is the hormone that governs milk production and milk synthesis. So the idea is that you tell your body you're pregnant almost, and then you, you're not pregnant anymore when you stop taking the contraceptive pill.
And then you start the domperidone, which elevates the prolactin, and you start stimulating. And some people will do that, you know, X number of weeks out or, or three months out, or depending on how much time you've got left. So you went down the N- Newman-Goldfarb protocol.
\[00:16:51\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:16:51\] Emma Pickett: One of the things just to mention is that domperidone does have side effects like every single drug, and one of the issues is it can, it can fiddle around with your heart QT interval.
And some people are concerned if you've got a heart condition it may not be super safe, and it also does interfere with some other medications as well. So, so some people will say, "Yes, I'm happy to prescribe you domperidone, but let's do a little bit of a analysis of your heart and, and maybe have a look at what's happening with your rhythm."
When you knew you wanted to go down the medication route, who helped you with that? Did you talk to a doctor? Did you find someone doing the prescribing? What was your care like? Or did you find someone who said, "What are you talking about?" Um, w- I'm hoping not the latter.
\[00:17:31\] Louise: Uh, y- well, yeah. I sort of, uh, asked around amongst various sort of, uh, LGBTQ+, uh, families that we know, um, and friends of friends who'd done that, and basically everyone said, "You won't find any NHS-type medical professionals who'll be able to help you with this."
So I spoke to a private lactation consultant who was also, uh, a medical doctor, so had- private prescription than it is
\[00:17:53\] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you found a private doctor-
\[00:17:55\] Louise: Mm ...
\[00:17:55\] Emma Pickett: who was willing to help you with the prescription, which is good news. I- Yeah ... wouldn't it be great if you could just walk into an NHS setting and say, "Hi, um, I'm Louise, and I'm gonna be inducing lactation."
And they go, "Ooh, welcome, Louise." Yeah. "What a wonderful thing, you're inducing lactation. Here's your domperidone, and let's just check your heart, and here's your contraception." And now wouldn't that be lovely if that was the reality, but- That
\[00:18:15\] Louise: would be fabulous,
\[00:18:16\] Emma Pickett: yeah ... more money was required to, to get this happening.
Did you have any, um, testing of your heart? Is that something that came up in the conversation?
\[00:18:24\] Louise: No. Um, the, the lactation consultant mentioned that that was, um ... Talked about some of the risks of domperidone and sort of asked about my medical history. Uh, but she still sort of said that that sounded like it wasn't, uh, wasn't a concern.
I mean, I ha- I'd gone into that conversation not being fully Planning to go down this sort of more medical route, but the, the consultant I spoke to was ... That was sort of very much, uh, she said that that's sort of the only thing that she helps with. So,
\[00:18:52\] Emma Pickett: um- Okay. Okay ...
\[00:18:53\] Louise: she sort of-
\[00:18:53\] Emma Pickett: I mean, to be fair to her, we know it's likely to have more effective outcomes if someone- Yeah, absolutely
does go down that medication route. But-
\[00:18:59\] Louise: Yeah ...
\[00:18:59\] Emma Pickett: having said that though, you have absolutely the right to not do that, and you have the right to go down just the stimulation route if that's what you want to do, 100%.
\[00:19:06\] Louise: Yeah. Um, so, you know, I ... Overall, I think it was, uh, it was ... I'm glad I made that decision. It- she'd positioned it and, uh, sort of explained of, um, the research and the, the patients she'd seen, that this was the most effective route to go down.
Um, and, you know, so overall, I, I'm glad I made that decision. But yes, it just hadn't, uh ... Yeah, that consultation hadn't ... I, I didn't necessarily feel very heard. Um, but- Okay.
\[00:19:29\] Emma Pickett: Okay ...
\[00:19:30\] Louise: as I say, glad I went down that route. Um, so I started off with private prescriptions from her. Eventually, I did manage, um, to speak to my GP, and he was willing to prescribe me domperidone in the end.
\[00:19:43\] Emma Pickett: Great. Great. That's good to hear. Not, not something I would say is universal, so that's- No ... that's really good to hear.
\[00:19:48\] Louise: Absolutely. Um, it, to be funny, it was ... To be honest, it was quite a funny conversation 'cause it was, uh ... He sort of seemed very up for it when I... You know, we went ... It's ... We'd gone in for the eight-week checkup with the babies.
Um, I said I was breastfeeding as well as Meg. Um, and, um, yeah, then he asked about that 'cause he was sort of curious and had never heard of that. So, he was, he was then very willing to, um, prescribe the medication, but had to ask me things like, "Right, and what dosage is that?" And, "How often are you gonna have to take that?"
And, "Do you know what the risks are?" And he was sort of merrily jotting those down as well.
\[00:20:19\] Emma Pickett: I massively respect that. Yeah. That is, that's exactly what you want, isn't it? Someone with the humility to go, "I know I should know this, but I don't- Yeah ... and you're the expert, and you've done the reading, and you're the mum who's done all the research, and you tell me."
Uh, you know, obviously he's ... Ultimately, that's his, you know, that's his medical license. That's his responsibility to give you that prescription. But, but huge respect that he's in that space learning and wanting to know more.
\[00:20:41\] Louise: Exactly. Yeah. That's brilliant. So, um, yes. But, uh, but otherwise, I mean, the, the, the
Generally, the people that we were speaking to, even in the kind of the midwives that we met, most of them hadn't Heard of induced lactation. Or even once the babies were born and had a health visitor appointment, um, that we went to, both Meg and I holding both girls. Uh, I was breastfeeding one of them during the appointment, and then, uh, sort of at the end of the appointment she, she went to show Meg, um, to sign some paperwork somewhere.
Um, and she said to Meg, "Oh, is that, that's your, um, that's your wet nurse you've brought with you, is it?" Which-
\[00:21:16\] Emma Pickett: Oh my God. Bloody swore. Okay. Uh, what, that, that's considered more expected than a- Exactly ... wife who might induce lactation? Wowzers.
\[00:21:24\] Louise: Yeah. So, um- Gosh,
\[00:21:26\] Emma Pickett: isn't that interesting. What did you say to that?
\[00:21:29\] Louise: Meg was like, "No, that is my wife. That's, that's-"
\[00:21:32\] Emma Pickett: The mother of the freaking children, lady.
\[00:21:34\] Louise: Um- The mother of the children, yeah.
\[00:21:36\] Emma Pickett: Wowzers. Okay.
\[00:21:37\] Louise: Yes. Even within medical professionals in that field, it's still not very known about. We have had, yes, a few comments like that, which have been a, has, you know, felt a little bit sort of exclusionary I guess from a kind of same-sex couple perspective.
But,
\[00:21:52\] Emma Pickett: um- Really sorry. I'm really sorry. I mean- It, it's weird when you're a lactation consultant and you've been a lactation consultant for, you know, X number of years, it just, it's just so ordinary- Yeah. ... to talk about induced lactation. It's just not ... I mean, it's great to, to ... I'm not saying it's not great to talk to you and it's, this is a boring, normal conversation.
It, it's great, but the idea that there are people out there, working families, who don't know about it is- Yeah ... really quite shocking, actually. It's not hard to do a bit of a Google and, and, you know, if you've done any lactation training, it really should've come up.
\[00:22:21\] Louise: Mm-hmm.
\[00:22:21\] Emma Pickett: Particularly training around diversity or, or LGBT.
I mean, it's j- it's just bizarre, isn't it? Yeah. Let's go back a little bit to pregnancy. So you, so Meg's pregnant. You found out about it. Yeah. You found, um, the lactation consultant who was able to prescribe. You started taking the drugs.
\[00:22:35\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:22:35\] Emma Pickett: Did you start pumping when she was pregnant? What happened with your pumping situation?
\[00:22:39\] Louise: Yes, so by this point it was only about three months till the babies were due, and so I was did a shortened version of the Newman Goldfarb protocol. So I took domperidone and the pill for about five weeks, then stopped the pill, um, as you described, and that's the sort of mimics the, uh, change in hormones of birth.
Um, and then carried on with domperidone, but started pumping from that day. So I was pumping eight times a day, including once at night, up until the babies were born.
\[00:23:07\] Emma Pickett: Let's take a moment to say you're working, presumably.
\[00:23:09\] Louise: I was working. Um- Yes, that's
\[00:23:11\] Emma Pickett: right ... and you are ... And, and you're pumping eight times a day over 24 hours.
\[00:23:15\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:23:16\] Emma Pickett: That is a mega commitment, and that's not easy. It's not like you're sitting around watching This Morning, popping on the breast pump. You've gotta ... I mean, how did it go with, with your work? What kind of work were you doing?
\[00:23:25\] Louise: Um, so I work at an arts university, so it's fairly desk-based and it's sort of part of the time working from home.
Um, and I had ... I was very lucky to have, um, a sort of sympathetic boss who, um, was happy with me working from home a bit more, or when I would go into the office, I was dragging my breast pump in.
\[00:23:42\] Emma Pickett: And this is a double hospital grade pump-
\[00:23:44\] Louise: Yes ... you're using. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it was a Spectra, uh- Okay
whichever one. I can't remember what. So it's sort of slightly portable but, you know, in, in essence it's still, like, bigger than a bowling ball.
\[00:23:52\] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I was gonna say, slightly portable. I mean- ... Spectra's a g- a great pump, but let's not pretend you're popping it in your handbag. It's, uh- It's like ... it's pretty intense.
It's like a toaster, carrying around a toaster, essentially.
\[00:24:02\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:24:03\] Emma Pickett: And did you get sizing with the flanges, and you're happy that you had the right sizing?
\[00:24:07\] Louise: I mean, at the start, I didn't really have the right sizing. I ordered some, um, yeah, different flanges online and sort of eventually through a bit of trial and error, um, ended up, um, with things a bit more comfortable.
But yeah, it's, it, it is a big commitment, and I think that's ... People, people should sort of bear that in mind very much with that, the, the Newman Goldfarb. Um, but yes, my work was, was, um, uh, sort of able to be flexible around that, and thankfully I do the kind of work that I, that that was possible in. I guess when I was going into the office, I had still had that sort of, um, kind of imposter syndrome feeling of I didn't even ask, "Is there a room in this building that's suitable for breastfeeding?"
'Cause I sort of at that point felt like, oh, I'm not ... How do I explain? I'm not a mother, but I am gonna be using a breast pump and all of this. So I ended up, I was just ... I think there probably is a room suitable for that, to be honest. But, um, I ended up just sort of doing that on the floor of a disabled loo or in, in an occasional meeting room or those sorts
\[00:25:03\] Emma Pickett: of things.
So that's been totally- Okay. Well, that's, that's really interesting to hear, and I can, I can absolutely r- understand why you felt like that. So you almost, and you know that's bollocks, but you almost felt you didn't have entitlement to that space- Yeah, exactly ... which is, um ... And I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm also glad you've at least found somewhere else, um, that, that worked.
Um, so you were pumping eight times, which is amazing. Yeah. Do you remember when you first started to see milk? Tell us about the sort of physical process. Did you feel your breasts change? Did you feel a tingling or bigger size difference, or what was happening physically?
\[00:25:34\] Louise: Um, so yes, within, um, within three days of starting pumping, I started to see a sort of mist in the breast pump, which was such an exciting moment.
\[00:25:47\] Emma Pickett: That's great. I mean, that ... Just for anyone else who's going through this, um- It's, that is early. That w- that is quite early, and that is definitely your body responding to the medications. Mm-hmm. And, and particularly if anyone is not going down the non-medication route, you will absolutely not see anything in f- in three days.
Uh, it can take several weeks before you really start noticing anything significant happening. So, um, I'm really happy for you that that was your reality. So, do you remember kind of going, "Woo-hoo", and, and sending Meg a picture? I mean-
\[00:26:13\] Louise: Yeah, exactly ... what was that moment
\[00:26:14\] Emma Pickett: like?
\[00:26:14\] Louise: Yes, that's it. That's it. I sent various
Lots of other friends as well, like, uh, you know, a very uninteresting photo of a slightly, um, misted, uh, plastic tube. But yes, no, I was ... It was a very exciting moment. And then carried on with the pumping, um, and then within about a week I was up to making about 30 milliliters a day.
\[00:26:36\] Emma Pickett: Great. That's brilliant.
And, uh, for anyone who doesn't know, we're not talking about, you know, white milk that looks like cow's milk. I mean, did you g- some people will actually go through a phase of producing kind of brownish fluid. What happened for you?
\[00:26:48\] Louise: No, for me it was, um, it was s- fairly clear, but still slightly, uh, yeah, still slightly white.
\[00:26:55\] Emma Pickett: Okay.
\[00:26:56\] Louise: Sort of slightly yellow. But yeah, it, it was sort of- Okay ... fairly like the, the eventual-
\[00:27:01\] Emma Pickett: The stuff that came out at the end. Yeah. Um, okay. Cool, and were you storing that milk, um, freezing it for when babies are coming, or what were you doing with it?
\[00:27:08\] Louise: At first, no, because, uh, you know, for ... That was 30 mil over eight pumping sessions, so it was, you know, only a few mil at a time.
Yeah.
\[00:27:17\] Emma Pickett: And the faff of storing and sterilizing presumably counteracts the value of being able to, to, to pump, and, uh, the priority's stimulation at this point. So yeah, I totally get that. Yeah,
\[00:27:25\] Louise: exactly. Um, so but then after, by about three or four weeks in, I think, I started to get about 100 mil a day, so, uh, I started to store it kind of before that point.
\[00:27:39\] Emma Pickett: That's really great results-
\[00:27:40\] Louise: Yeah,
\[00:27:40\] Emma Pickett: yeah ... Louise. Um, I don't want someone listening to this thinking, "Oh, my God. I'm inducing lactation, and baby's not here yet, and I'm not getting 100 mils a day." This isn't necessarily typical, so, um, I'm really glad that this was your experience.
\[00:27:51\] Louise: Uh, yes, absolutely. And I mean, but it was also really difficult to find what was typical.
There were just sort of no other stories that I could come across in any kind of detail. Like, people said, "Yeah, I induced lactation," but, um, you know, no one sort of told me, "Oh, by week four it was X volume." So yeah, I was, I was doing the eight pumping sessions a day. Sort of every other day I was doing a kind of power pumping session of kind of over an hour, alternating 10 minutes pumping, not pumping, which seemed to slightly increase my supply.
Um, so yeah, by the time the babies arrived, I was making and storing kind of maybe, uh, about 100 or 120, to 120 mil a day.
\[00:28:31\] Emma Pickett: Brilliant And before we talk about the arri- the arrival of E and A, w- did you have lots of support from people around you? Did you have family members going, "Yay, fantastic", or anyone going, "What the heck are you doing?
This, you're gonna have, it's gonna be tough enough looking after two babies." You know, not only are you inducing lactation, but you've got twins. You can't feed twins. Um, you know, what was the ... Was anyone giving you negative, um, vibes?
\[00:28:52\] Louise: No. I mean, I didn't tell a huge number of people, to be honest. I think, again, that sort of, that, like, that sort of imposter feeling syndrome, um, was playing into it a bit.
And I also didn't know, you know, if the babies would take to it or how we would take to it when they arrived. So I saw it as the this is the run-up to breastfeeding, but I wasn't tha- at that point sure how breastfeeding would go. So- Yeah … I was only, had only told kind of close friends and family, but they were all
I mean, first of all, uh, nearly every one of them was like, "I had no idea this was possible." So they were all kind of amazed at bodies. And, uh, then they were all, yeah, very positive and supportive after that.
\[00:29:31\] Emma Pickett: Okay. Great. And one of the things that obviously we would recommend for any couple in this situation is to make sure you really have a sit down and talk about, okay-
\[00:29:39\] Louise: Mm …
\[00:29:39\] Emma Pickett: how do you feel about lactating- Yeah … birthing mum.
And, you know, if you are somebody, for example, so it l- it, I mean, I'm not gonna put labels on Meg, but it doesn't sound like breastfeeding was a f- massive, massive drive for her. It wasn't something she absolutely felt she had to do.
\[00:29:54\] Louise: Mm.
\[00:29:55\] Emma Pickett: And but obviously for s- for some mums, that would be the case, and we'd need to make sure that their milk supply absolutely gets a chance to get up and running, particularly if they've got twins.
So, so I'm not remotely ... So I'm actually quite glad I'm saying this before you tell me your story, but if, if there was a situation where the birthing mum very much prioritized breastfeeding, we would want to make sure that both of your supplies get the full chance, and that may mean in the early days when the placenta's been delivered and milk's coming in, that we prioritize birthing mum's milk supply to give that a chance to get up and running.
You therefore might be doing some skin to skin, but really keeping going with your pumping regime, doing your power pumping. Um, and, you know, and if you did feed the babies, you know, birthing mum would be doing pumping. And even though we don't necessarily assume early pumping is the great idea, this is a situation where we would want everybody to be stimulating their milk supply as much as possible.
\[00:30:46\] Louise: Mm. '
\[00:30:47\] Emma Pickett: Cause what we wouldn't want is the birthing mum's milk supply to be diminished because other mum's breastfeeding journey was, was getting more of a priority. So that balancing act can be quite fragile. And a other thing I would say, and I'm again quite glad I'm saying this before you tell me your reality, is that occasionally There are some difficult emotions around this.
\[00:31:05\] Louise: Mm-hmm.
\[00:31:06\] Emma Pickett: And some birthing mums are surprised that they actually don't feel great seeing their partner breastfeeding, and that's, and that's ... It feels a bit taboo to say that, um, but there is s- for some birthing mums, that doesn't feel comfortable, and they're surprised that that doesn't feel comfortable.
And, and vice versa, sometimes the induced lactation mum can feel jealousy that is ... So obviously, this is all about open communication and couples just being really, really honest and open with each other, and, and lots of empathy and understanding. And there can be surprising emotions that come up once babies are born and hormones are flying around.
Um, and we just need to make sure that everyone's milk supply gets the, gets the best chance. Um, thank you for allowing me to put that little PSA in there.
\[00:31:49\] Louise: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells a
\[00:31:58\] Emma Pickett: story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.
Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mum will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too.
Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition From Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.
Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.
Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.
So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.
It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. So how was, um, was M- how was Meg's birth?
\[00:33:55\] Louise: Um, it was planned C-section birth. The girls were born at 37 weeks, which is the sort of the latest that they ever let identical twins like ours go, sharing a placenta.
We had actually been booked in for a C-section two days before, and then, uh, for various reasons that couldn't go ahead. So we sort of had felt very ready on the day it was supposed to happen, and then, um, lots of upset and things, but finally the day came and the girls arrived Thankfully, they were both
Neither of them needed any special care. They, they were both kind of perfect and healthy when they arrived, which was, uh, which was a huge relief. Uh, Meg didn't react very well to the, uh, the, the drugs and everything she was given. So in the, the immediate sort of h- first half hour or, or, um, hour after the birth, she wasn't feeling great.
Um, but we had some really good midwives with us who were keen to make sure that we were starting to breastfeed. One thing I guess worth mentioning with induced lactation is you do just make kind of mature milk. You don't produce colostrum, which as I understand is sort of triggered by the placenta. Is that
That's-
\[00:35:04\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So y- colostrum is going to be something that the birthing mom is gonna be producing, and that's partly a little bit about volume and, um, the hormones not having quite kicked in, so you've still got fairly high levels of progesterone. And only when the progesterone sort of leaves your, your system and the prolactin kicks in will you do that transition.
So yeah, it's, it, there's, there's a little bit of a unknown when it comes to the exact constituents of induced lactation milk. Mm. I mean, one theory actually is that induced lactation milk when volumes are small may actually have quite a lot of immunological properties in the same way that weaning milk at the end of a breastfeeding journey when volume is small has a lot of immunological properties.
\[00:35:42\] Louise: Oh, right.
\[00:35:43\] Emma Pickett: And I don't think we have enough research to know- Mm … exactly what's happening with induced lactation milk. I think if you're up to 120 mils in 24 hours, you've probably passed that point of the more concentrated weaning milk type properties. But I honestly don't know, and I'm not gonna pretend, pretend I know.
But I, I think your instinct to prioritize giving Meg's colostrum makes, makes a lot of sense.
\[00:36:06\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:36:07\] Emma Pickett: So you decided we wanted E and A to have, um, Meg's colostrum. Did she do any antenatal expressing? Is that something that happened?
\[00:36:14\] Louise: Y- yes, she had, she had tried, but the volumes were very, very small. So yes, we didn't essentially have very much to, to, um, provide from that.
So yeah, we tried to kind of make sure the girls mostly had, uh ... were, were breastfeeding from Meg, um, in those early days. But they were also needing ... Otherwise, they seemed to be needing top-ups. So I did sometimes breastfeed. I also had some of the expressed milk that I'd had beforehand, so we were giving them that instead of kind of topping up with formula.
\[00:36:44\] Emma Pickett: Do you remember the first feed? How soon after birth was that, and do you remember where you were sitting? And just talk us through what that was like.
\[00:36:50\] Louise: Yes. So that was in the, um, in the sort of still recovery area after the C-section. Um, so probably about, I don't know, 40 ... I have no idea of the timing actually.
Everything was a bit of a blur after that. Maybe 45 minutes possibly after C-section. The midwife had passed, uh, I think it was E to A, uh, uh, E to Meg. Um, and then I had, uh A. So it was, we were, we each had one baby and, uh, yeah, sitting in a chair next to the bed, next to Meg. And yeah, feeding her, and that felt very special having, you know, had a long kind of run up and thought about breastfeeding for a long time.
So yeah, having that, that moment and that first feed and kind of, you know, being one of those first times really that I was sort of holding her. And, um, yeah, that was a very, very special kind of bonding moment.
\[00:37:36\] Emma Pickett: Yeah.
\[00:37:37\] Louise: As well as all of that new parent feeling completely overwhelmed and
\[00:37:40\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There's oxytocin flowing too, which is- Yeah
which is a good thing. I think, I mean, one of the things I think about your journey is the number of hours you spent thinking about lactation. I mean, obviously- Mm ... anybody who's pregnant reads a book, does a class, thinks about it a bit, but you are very much in the zone of thinking about it more than almost anybody who's going to be- Mm
having a baby You know, every time you're pumping, you're imagining your breastfeeding journey. Mm-hmm. Every time, um, you know, you're storing milk and g- carrying pumps around and scheduling. There's so much m- mental preparation. So that first breastfeed, um, you know, perhaps maybe feels more special because of all that, all that build up to it.
Had you had any antenatal education around breastfeeding, and how were you with things like positioning, attachment?
\[00:38:24\] Louise: Um, we hadn't had a huge amount, to be honest. We kind of ... We had asked at our hospital if there was something, and we sort of explained our situation, and they were n- not very helpful. They sort of essentially were saying, "Oh, it's for the, the, the birthing, the birthing mothers are invited along."
Oh,
\[00:38:40\] Emma Pickett: my God.
\[00:38:41\] Louise: Which I thought, great.
\[00:38:41\] Emma Pickett: Oh, Christ, Louise, that's just horrifying. We're talking about a year ago.
\[00:38:45\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:38:46\] Emma Pickett: This isn't, like, 1975. I mean, you've both got boobs. It's gonna be happening. Why the bloody hell can't you have a conversation about positioning, attachment? I'm really sorry. And also, you know, the part of London you live in, it's meant to be one of the more cosmopolitan- Mm
metropl- you know, diverse areas of the country. It's not like you're kind of in the obscure part of some rural area where there's, you know, very few, um, gay couples. It, I mean, just bizarre.
\[00:39:09\] Louise: Yeah. Yeah.
\[00:39:10\] Emma Pickett: Really sorry that was your experience. I'm really sorry.
\[00:39:13\] Louise: Yeah. Well, it's ... We, we also ... I mean, we had s- we did, um, a kind of local antenatal class.
So they covered some of the, the basics there. Um, I did a lot of reading. Lots of reading and research around all of this. So I sort of had seen a lot of theory, but I guess it's different than once you've got a baby in front of you, what does that actually mean? So the midwives at the hospital were generally very helpful in trying to kind of help us both get good latching positions and, um, uh, help with that.
But obviously they were very sort of time-pressed, so we didn't get a lot of kind of face-to-face time for that.
\[00:39:47\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And a 37-weeker, just to say, i- you know, is a term baby, especially for a twin, but sometimes it does take a couple of weeks for them to kinda get up and running with breastfeeding. And, and what Kathryn Stagg calls the kind of great pretenders, these, these babies that aren't necessarily officially preterm but are in this kinda gap, can sometimes find it a little bit difficult.
But it sounds like A was latching on like a trooper.
\[00:40:10\] Louise: Their latches weren't, weren't great. I think we got better at it with, with lots of kind of help and, um, advice from the midwives. We had a good, um ... Once we were home from the hospital, uh, on day kind of four or five, um, we had, uh, some good support from an- the infant feeding team in our local kind of community midwifery team.
And she was very, uh, yeah, very kind of lots of practical advice and tips for us So Meg and I, once we were home, we were both breastfeeding, but we were also giving the girls some top-ups as well with formula.
\[00:40:44\] Emma Pickett: And are you still pumping as well at this point?
\[00:40:45\] Louise: Yes. So for the first kinda six weeks or so, we were triple feeding.
So Meg and I both would breastfeed the babies and then do some pumping, um, to, uh, have a bit more expressed, but also to increase our supply. And the girls were also getting some bottle feeds too. So it was an absolutely insane time in hindsight. Yeah. It was so hard.
\[00:41:10\] Emma Pickett: Intense. Very intense. And you've got family locally.
Did you have other support? Uh, some people say when you've got twins, you have to have three adults. Did you ever have three adults?
\[00:41:18\] Louise: Hardly ever, no. I think, and in hindsight, you know, I don't, I mean, you know, I kind of wouldn't have changed anything, but I think in hindsight, it, it, it was very hard those early, those early few weeks 'cause we were having to feed the girls every two hours at the start, and they would sometimes spend half an hour or 40 minutes breastfeeding, and then we would do some pumping, and then we would need to feed ourselves or wash or do the mountains of newborn laundry or sleep 'cause this is, you know, 24 hours a day.
But those two hours hardly ever coincided both babies neatly starting at minute one together. So it was, you know- Yeah ... sometimes one of us would get, would be feeding for an hour and then just doze off, and then the next baby would wake up. Um, so yeah, I, we, I think in hindsight, um, we would've benefited from trying to call in More friends or, um, getting some more kind of, yeah, paid support from a sort of doula or, or someone.
\[00:42:16\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Hindsight is a lovely thing.
\[00:42:19\] Louise: Absolutely. Isn't it?
\[00:42:20\] Emma Pickett: Um, and, and were you kind of 50/50 with the breastfeeding? How was the breastfeeding kind of panning out?
\[00:42:24\] Louise: Yes. Yeah, 50/50. In those early weeks, we would just sort of alternate babies between us really. The girls, um, they took sort of over two weeks to get back to their birth weight, um, so we were still having regular visits from the, the midwives.
And they were, they were gaining weight, but we had a visit from Kathryn Stagg, actually, um, came and, um, helped us with some, uh, sort of latching technique and that sort of stuff when the girls were about six weeks old. And at that point, she also weighed the babies, and, you know, we, we'd seen they were gaining weight, and they seemed generally happy and healthy, but, but she'd pointed out that actually their weight had dropped on the growth charts from around 20, the 20th centile.
They were now around the first centile. Okay. So sort of that was a, I think, a bit of a wake-up call for us 'cause Meg and I had both been really keen to try and breastfeed as much as we could and kind of increase our supply, and we're, we're doing all those right things. Um, but actually it seemed like the babies weren't getting as much as they needed for, for growing as they, as they could be.
So from that point on, Meg, um, switched to just expressing, so they would have her, her milk from a bottle, so we had a clearer idea of how much they were getting. Um, and we just increased the volumes of formula they were getting as well.
\[00:43:43\] Emma Pickett: Okay. And did you get a sense that your milk supply had gone through a transformation?
Obviously, that 120 mils at birth, you're not gonna be feeding twins on 120 mils a day. That's not gonna happen. So y- you ... Did you feel like, "Gosh, I can really see a difference in my supply now I'm actually feeding babies"?
\[00:43:57\] Louise: Yes. Yeah, definitely. Um, I would, yeah, definitely have, uh, after a couple of hours my, my breasts would feel really kind of hard, and, um, uh, I would know I needed to, to feed a baby, and it was sort of starting to get uncomfortable, um, which I hadn't really sort of felt that when I was just pumping before they arrived.
Um, so yeah, it was, I ... It was difficult to know how much I was making, um, because, yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't just exclusively pumping after that point.
\[00:44:24\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Sure. But you obviously, you're, you're seeing swallowing, you're hearing swallowing. Yeah. They're happy to be there, which is a, which is a good sign.
\[00:44:30\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:44:30\] Emma Pickett: And, and Meg has obviously chosen to stop direct breastfeeding at this point. Mm-hmm. What was breastfeeding meaning to you? And I ... That's a weird question when you're so overwhelmed with just day-to-day survival, but- Did breastfeeding feel important? Did it feel s- really special? What was your kind of emotional connection to it?
\[00:44:48\] Louise: They felt like very special bonding moments. Um, and I think that had also been another of my motivating factors for, for doing it. Uh, you know, again, sort of probably that pretender, uh, feeling from beforehand, before the babies arrived, thinking, "I'm not, I'm not the birth mother." Every- everyone I'm sure has kind of worries about how they will feel once their children arrive, and it's a, a really kind of intense, overwhelming time.
But, you know, I worried, is it ... Are they gonna bond the same way with me that they might with Meg? So I had wanted to do the breastfeeding as a sort of an extra way for me to bond with them and, and hopefully for them to bond with me, and that's definitely how it felt once it arrived. It was, it was, uh
Yeah, it felt very special to be able to nurture them and help them grow sort of directly from my body, and particularly that Meg had, uh, you know, grown them from tiny little cells, single cells, uh, that had, had grown them all the way to proper people. So it felt kind of a bit more egalitarian as well that we were, we were both able to, uh, really help them physically in that way as well.
\[00:45:47\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Good word. Yeah. So your cells are in their body. Mm. Bits of you are in them. Um- Mm ... you have-- you literally are physically connected to them in that sense. Um, what was the situation with your work leave? Did you get a kinda ... I'm guessing you got more than the, the regular kind of maternity leave for somebody who was non-birthing.
What was, what was happening with, with maternity leave?
\[00:46:07\] Louise: Yes. So, um, yes. As, I as the n- the non-birthing parent, uh, sort of the, the legal entitlement is paternity leave. Um, which, uh, I'm thankful to work in an organization that, A, doesn't just call it that. They call it sort of ... They have an equal parental leave policy.
Uh, but yes, it's also, yeah, I work for a, a, an arts university, and they have a fantastic policy. And it, it is that it was, um ... I could take six months paid and an additional six months unpaid, which is sort of b- you know, almost unheard of for the, for the Secondary parent
\[00:46:41\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and so important if you're the breastfeeding parent.
Yeah. Can you imagine a world where you were continuing to breastfeed and having to go back to work at two weeks, just bananas.
\[00:46:49\] Louise: Absolutely. And I would really, I'd r- really encourage anyone to kind of seriously consider that if they are thinking about, uh, an induced lactation process. The kind of work that you do, I think, is gonna have such a key part of this.
It's both in the run-up to the birth, are you gonna be able to, to do the pumping that you need? And also once you go back to work, you know, realistically, if you've only got two weeks of, of parental leave, which is the statutory for, um, kind of secondary parents, then ... Or even if you've got four weeks, is that, is that gonna be kind of long enough for you to get what you need from, um, this, uh, yeah, this process?
'Cause it is quite intense, and as you've said, it's ... You'll also need to balance with your partner and how they're ... if and how they are feeding thems- the, the baby themselves. Um, so yes, playing all of that together and, and which work you do and how much time you have off is, uh, such a key part of that.
\[00:47:45\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So as the weeks go by and the months go by, obviously as you mentioned, you're combi feeding and, and E was the one who seemed to sort of, you know, l- lose interest first.
\[00:47:55\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:47:55\] Emma Pickett: Was that a hard moment when that happened? Were you kind of, "Oh my God, this is the end. I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't prepared.
What happens if A finishes too?" Or did the ... Or do you think, "Phew, gosh, end of that. I've been doing this pumping for 10 months. What a relief to finally be at the end of it"? And how was it feeling when things we- wrapped up?
\[00:48:13\] Louise: Um, well, after about three months, um, Meg decided she was done with the pumping as well, so she stopped that.
Um, I at that point switched to, I would tandem feed the girls twice a day. So when they woke up, I'd feed them both at the same time using a breastfeeding pillow. And, uh, then in the afternoon I would do the same. And then, um, at night I would pick one baby and be feeding that baby for all her feeds throughout the night.
So when, uh, we got into kind of a very comfortable rhythm with that, um, the baby seemed to expect that. I was happy with that. Uh, so when E decided she was done, I think handily, because they're twins, it was, um, I think I was, I was less sad about it than I might have been, um, because A was still feeding, and also because it seemed a very definite decision from E.
She just completely refused several feeds in a row. Okay. So it's like, okay, you're, you know- So
\[00:49:05\] Emma Pickett: you're trying to latch her on and she's like, "Nope."
\[00:49:07\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:49:07\] Emma Pickett: And that ... And did you have a wave of panic or did you feel, okay, we're cool, this is, this is what she wants?
\[00:49:13\] Louise: Uh, more, more, more calm about it. And I think because it is k- Quite a faff to feed two babies at once.
So I think the idea of like, "Okay, I think I'm done with the tandem feeding now," this is quite a relief. And yeah, the fact that A was still feeding was, was ... still meant that I would have that kind of, you know, I wasn't quite ... didn't need to, to, to park my whole, uh, breastfeeding, um, journey. But, uh, yeah, it, it was actually a little bit of a relief when A decided she was done.
\[00:49:44\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And then A carried on for a little bit longer. Mm. And did you ... Do you know when your last feed was? Was that something you're aware of, or it just kind of happened organically and you can't
\[00:49:52\] Louise: pinpoint it? Um, yes, it was sort of nearly when she was 12 months old. Because they were sleeping better, so I was sort of doing fewer feeds in the day and, and I had made this decision to kind of taper off my domperidone.
So all of this time I was still taking domperidone every day. I was ta- I had been taking nine tablets a day at the, at the, at the peak. And there is a, there's some discussion about you ... people might be able to reduce their supply and at the, uh, reduce the, the tablets but still have the supply. So I had reduced them a bit to a volume that it was sort of I knew that it, it didn't seem to be affecting the amount the babies were drinking.
But kind of below that point, I, I thought it might. So it's ... I've made this decision to, to reduce those tablets. Um, but yeah, we had one final, one final feed, and I had a little cry, and we had a little cuddle and, uh, yeah. Aw. And then, and then we were done.
\[00:50:44\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, I think anyone listening will say, "Good God, woman, well done."
What a, what an amazing journey from the beginning. All that pumping, all that preparation, um, you know, the logistics of being a, a mother to twins, and there's so much you've gotta think about. Mm. What an enormous j- uh, journey that was, and what a huge achievement that is. Um, thank you very much for sharing it.
I'm gonna ask you one question. Looking back at the whole thing, what was the bit that was the hardest? What was the bit that was the most challenging?
\[00:51:12\] Louise: Um, I think those very early days with twins is just so overwhelming anyway. There's, uh, there's just so much to do all the time. Um, but particularly having both of us triple feeding, uh, was, was really hard.
And I think, um, you know, in hindsight, yeah, having a few more people around and sort of having asked for help a bit more, um, and having some extra pairs of hands so that we could just spend more time kind of with the babies and resting, that would've made such a difference to us. But overall, it's been, you know, such a special, such, such a special kind of bonding experience with my girls.
So definitely I'm, I'm so pleased that I did it, and I, I kind of wouldn't have changed anything about it overall really.
\[00:51:59\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's great. Is there ... Was there ever a moment when Meg was saying, "Why are you still carrying on?" Um, I kinda know the answer to this question already 'cause obviously she's gonna support your goals, but I'm being a bit of a tabloid journalist here.
Was there ever a moment when she was like, "Come on, let's just bottle feed"? Or was she always saying, "No, I can see this matters to you"?
\[00:52:16\] Louise: Yeah, no, she was, she was always very supportive of it. Um, I think it also, it was just, you know, easier w- in the, particularly in the night times when we're being woken up. I think she was ins- occasionally a little bit jealous of the fact that I could just go and pick up a baby when it's crying in the night, and stick her on my boob, and s- still be snuggled in bed.
Whereas she was then having the, whichever baby she was looking after, she'd have to go down and make a bottle of formula and bring it up, and, um, and it was, uh, sort of generally a lot more disruptive. So I think she occasionally might have had, uh, you know, some little twinges of, um, of, of wishing it was sort of easier in that same way for, than, than it had been for her.
Um, but no, she was always very supportive of it for me.
\[00:52:58\] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you, you've mentioned a couple of times these kind of impostery feelings.
\[00:53:02\] Louise: Mm.
\[00:53:03\] Emma Pickett: And some people will, will have been shouting at their podcast device saying, "Well, how can you ... All this effort, all this connect- how can you possibly feel that?" Did that go away?
\[00:53:12\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:53:12\] Emma Pickett: And was that just a very gradual going away, or- Um ... or the minute you had your babies in your arms you felt differently and it was in degrees?
\[00:53:19\] Louise: Um, I think within, within a few days of the babies arriving it was, it was sort of very ... I felt very firmly, I'm their mother, and I'm here, and I'm doing all of these things for them.
Um, you know, there's no one, no one better qualified or no one better, um, able to hold, hold that title than, than me and Meg. We are these, these babies' mothers. So yeah, that, that very much went away quite quickly.
\[00:53:45\] Emma Pickett: Okay. And just a quick note on favorite resources. So you've mentioned Kathryn Stagg. Obviously, you got to meet her in person when she c- ca- did the face-to-face stuff.
And for anyone who's not aware, we've got the lovely, um, Breastfeeding Twins and Triplets Facebook group, which is- Yeah ... super valuable.
\[00:54:00\] Louise: That's great.
\[00:54:01\] Emma Pickett: Um, any other favorite resources that you've found?
\[00:54:04\] Louise: Um, if you are considering the, um, Newman Goldfarb protocol, the, uh, Canadian Breastfeeding, uh, I can't remember, Association, I think it's called.
There's a website, um, where they kind of detail quite a lot of the steps that might be involved, and the sort of long protocol, the short protocol, and sort of variations. Um, so I would, uh, very much suggest people, uh, look at that for, for information.
\[00:54:29\] Emma Pickett: You mentioned Alyssa's book. So that's Alyssa Schnall's book, Breastfeeding Without Birthing.
Mm-hmm. Uh, she's based in the States, but she's also a lactation consultant. Mm-hmm. So people can have consultations with her as well if they want to get that, that, that absolute professional view. She, I mean, she's absolutely the top of her game. She, she knows all the options and everything that's available.
And, and it s- sounds like ... I'm hoping this podcast will also be a resource for someone listening to this. So if anyone's listening to this and you're thinking about induced lactation, you can see what is possible, and, uh, hopefully you will come to a decision that feels right for you. What, what would you say to somebody who's maybe their partner's pregnant, and they're doing their research, and they found this podcast on Google.
What would you want them to think about if they're considering induced lactation?
\[00:55:07\] Louise: I would say definitely talk to your partner and make sure you're both on the same page about what that might look like. Um, if one of you has, is, has really sort of assumed you will be that, the primary parent bre- breastfeeding, you'll need to work out between you kind of what's realistic.
I definitely think you need to be realistic if you are trying to do the, the Newman Goldfarb protocol. It- it's quite intense, both in the run up to the baby arriving and, uh, you know, continuing to take medication and everything after that. I- Would say to talk to, if you can, I know there are often kind of LGBTQ+ parenting WhatsApp groups.
I'm in one for London with some various parents in London, and people have their own kind of experiences there, and it, it might that you're able to, to be linked up with someone to answer, answer any questions that you have via that route. And I have heard, actually, someone in that group was recently approached to proofread a new book that's about this sort of topic for, uh, queer parents.
So I'll, I will find out what the title of that is. I haven't seen it myself, but, um, uh, I know another, um, another person who did induce lactation who, um, had been involved in sort of proofreading that. I'm really pleased there are more resources that are appearing for that because I think there are some real specifics that come where you've got not just about the induced lactation process itself, which as we've mentioned, it could be for a woman who is adopting a baby, for example.
But there are some very specific questions and sort of things to think about when you are two mums or two parents who are breastfeeding or chest feeding that you want to sort of... For one, one problem I know that, um, some friends of mine had was that the birthing mother, uh, had a, was producing a large supply, and when her partner was feeding the baby, she would get mastitis quite often.
Um, so yeah, kind of thinking about how you'll manage that and, um, kind of have a plan between you, and it might mean that the birthing parent is, um, expressing while the, while the other parent is, um-
\[00:57:10\] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... breastfeeding. I think that's, that's definitely important to mention. And I think the other thing I'd probably add is there's a certain element of the unknown here- Mm
if you're an induced lactation parent. You don't really know what's gonna happen to your milk supply.
\[00:57:21\] Louise: Mm.
\[00:57:21\] Emma Pickett: You can't... It's hard to picture what life will be like with the babies, with that level of uncertainty, and, and just being comfortable with that unknown- Yeah ... is quite an ask for somebody. Um, you don't know if you're gonna produce a full milk supply.
Lots of people probably won't. You don't know what your future's gonna bring, so it's just about giving it a go.
\[00:57:39\] Louise: Mm.
\[00:57:39\] Emma Pickett: One other just quick word on a resource. There's a lactation consultant based in Norfolk called BJ Woodstein, and she's written a book called We're Here: A Practical Guide to Becoming an LGBTQ+ Parent, and she's also a lactation consultant in this space, and- Lovely
you can do consultations with her as well.
\[00:57:54\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:57:55\] Emma Pickett: Um, there are definitely people out there. You just have to, just have to find them Thank you so much for your time today, Louise. I massively appreciate it. You've been really open and, and honest, and I think I'm really grateful for that. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we should have covered?
\[00:58:08\] Louise: Um, I will just, I'll just pick up on something you mentioned a moment ago about, you know, you can't really know what your, your supply will end up being via induced lactation. I think we had a, a handy natural experiment in some ways, having identical twins when I was the only one feeding them, that my, my supply probably topped out about 2/3 of the supply for one baby, which was, you know, it was handy for us to have a comparison of how much one baby was drinking via formula bottles versus, uh, from me.
And in general, I know, you know, with twins, not everyone will produce a full supply for twins. So I'd, I'd say particularly if there is a, a, in, on the chance that there is another same-sex couple thinking about this for twins, which probably fairly niche, but, you know, this would be the only resource they might come across.
I certainly didn't find any others. Um, then yeah, just trying to, to keep, really keep an eye on, um, making sure those babies' growth, growth, uh, charts and everything are going as they, as they should because you have got that added unknown of between two of you, two breastfeeding parents, you're sort of not necessarily completely, haven't got full visibility of what that, um, overall milk supply might be.
Um, so yeah.
\[00:59:18\] Emma Pickett: That's a great tip. Yeah. So growth charts and weighing are your friend- Mm-hmm ... not your foe. They're not something to fear. They're actually information that help you make decisions and decide what to do next. That's super helpful.
\[00:59:28\] Louise: Yeah.
\[00:59:29\] Emma Pickett: Thank you very much for your time today, Louise, and congratulations on your, your amazing journey.
\[00:59:33\] Louise: Thank you very much.
\[00:59:38\] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter @makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.
This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media

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