# When Bad Sh*t Happens to Good People on Holiday: Legal Lessons for the Travel Industry

An episode of [Travel Trends with Dan Christian](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1689330635), 14 Apr 2026, 1 h 08 min.

Audio: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2172036/episodes/19015697-when-bad-sh-t-happens-to-good-people-on-holiday-legal-lessons-for-the-travel-industry.mp3

Send us Fan Mail A single incident can turn a “dream trip” into a legal and operational nightmare, and most travel businesses don’t realize where they’re exposed until it’s too late. We kick off the 2026 Travel Trends and Adventure Travel Trade Association (ATTA) Adventure Travel Series with an honest look at the legal risks behind every itinerary. Dan, alongside co-host Shannon Stowell, CEO of ATTA, sits down with two leading voices in travel law, Jeff Ment of The Ment Law Group and Chun Wright of The Law Office of Chun T. Wright. Together, they unpack what actually protects an adventure travel operator when things go wrong, from serious injuries to partner disputes to fast-moving cross-border complaints. The conversation breaks down duty of care in practical terms, including vendor vetting, layered supplier relationships, and why tour operators are often held accountable even when a DMC or local provider is running the activity. They also highlight the highest ROI legal moves for small and mid-sized operators, such as clear and properly accepted booking terms and conditions, and the critical insurance conversations too many companies overlook, especially when it comes to exclusions. Along the way, they explore why even the most trusted partnerships still require contracts, how settlement agreements can prevent repeat disputes, and how crisis planning doesn’t need to be complex but does need to be real, documented, and practiced. The episode also tackles a growing trend in 2026: using AI tools like ChatGPT for legal documents. The group explains why generic outputs often fail to reflect the realities of your business, can create more work later, and may even compromise confidentiality. Finally, the discussion zooms out to succession planning and acquisition readiness, covering what buyers are really looking for, from intellectual property and brand value to organized records and a clear understanding of EBITDA. If you run tours, sell travel, or manage suppliers, this is a conversation worth listening to with a notepad in hand. Start by identifying one legal gap you can address this month. Learn more adventuretravel.biz. The #1 B2B Travel Podcast Globally. Over 100 Episodes. Listeners in 125 countries. New Episodes Every Weds. https://www.traveltrendspodcast.com/

## Chapters

- 0:00 Welcome To The 2026 Series
- 3:40 What ATTA Does And Why It Matters
- 5:31 Why Legal Protection Belongs In Travel
- 6:54 Meet The Travel Lawyers
- 12:40 The Biggest Legal Gaps Operators Miss
- 18:15 Duty Of Care And Vendor Vetting
- 21:28 Prevention Versus Crisis Response
- 32:06 Why AI Cannot Replace Counsel
- 37:27 Crisis Plans Training And Readiness
- 40:14 Legal Budgeting And One Next Step
- 44:02 Terms Conditions And Insurance Exclusions
- 54:18 Selling A Travel Business The Right Way
- 1:02:28 When The Worst Case Happens
- 1:05:50 Next ATTA Stories And Where To Follow

## Transcript

[0:05] SPEAKER_03: Hello, everyone, and welcome to our very first Adventure Travel Trade Association and Travel Trends Adventure episode for 2026.
[0:13] SPEAKER_03: This is your host, Dan Kirsten, and I'm delighted to introduce everyone to my co-host and the legend of ATTA, the CEO, Shannon Stoll.
[0:21] SPEAKER_03: Shannon, welcome back to Travel Trends.
[0:23] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Dan.
[0:24] SPEAKER_01: It's always a pleasure.
[0:25] SPEAKER_01: It's uh fun to see you at so many of our events now, too.
[0:29] SPEAKER_01: It's uh not only the the uh online, but also the in-person.
[0:33] SPEAKER_01: It's fantastic.
[0:34] SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
[0:35] SPEAKER_03: Of course, man.
[0:35] SPEAKER_03: And obviously it all started in Panama, which is one of our guests that I had a chance to meet, uh, Tuny, that we'll introduce here in a moment at the Day of Adventure.
[0:43] SPEAKER_03: But yes, of course, we were together in Panama for the Adventure Travel World Summit and in Chile last year, which was extraordinary.
[0:49] SPEAKER_03: And the one thing I want to make sure to all of our travel trends listeners is they check out your TED Talk from eight years ago, where you actually spelled out the vision for what I'm seeing now as being the biggest driver of travel in 2026, which is transformative travel.
[1:03] SPEAKER_03: You are really ahead of your time.
[1:05] SPEAKER_03: And ATTA as an organization, I'm you know profoundly connected to the values of the organization.
[1:10] SPEAKER_03: I love our collaboration.
[1:11] SPEAKER_03: I love meeting everyone in the community.
[1:13] SPEAKER_03: And I'm so delighted that we're continuing this series together to share the stories of people that are part of the adventure travel industry over the course of the year.
[1:21] SPEAKER_03: So thank you again for the partnership.
[1:23] SPEAKER_03: But let's make sure for anyone on the travel trend side that didn't listen to our adventure series or hasn't listened to one of those amazing spotlight episodes featuring all the incredible people that come together from around the world for your events.
[1:35] SPEAKER_03: Give everyone just a little bit of background on ATTA and your role, Shannon.
[1:39] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[1:39] SPEAKER_01: So the Adventure Travel Trade Association has been around since the late 90s, and I was fortunate enough to take over in 2004.
[1:48] SPEAKER_01: And we're the world's largest adventure travel professional network.
[1:53] SPEAKER_01: So we're our members are in around 100 countries.
[1:57] SPEAKER_01: We put on conferences around the world.
[1:59] SPEAKER_01: This year we'll be in Quebec, in your home country, Dan, in Lima, Peru, and then also in Catalonia, Spain.
[2:08] SPEAKER_01: And that's where we gather the industry together.
[2:10] SPEAKER_01: But we also do a lot of other stuff like research and training and education.
[2:14] SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
[2:15] SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Shannon.
[2:16] SPEAKER_03: And one of the things most of our listeners know is that I have a background in adventure travel.
[2:20] SPEAKER_03: I'm a big advocate for this space.
[2:21] SPEAKER_03: Shannon and I really got to know each other just in the last couple of years.
[2:24] SPEAKER_03: The number of people that said to me, you guys don't know each other.
[2:26] SPEAKER_03: And I now know why they said that, because like it's literally the brother from another mother expression has never been more accurate.
[2:33] SPEAKER_03: I look at Shannon like my older brother.
[2:35] SPEAKER_03: Uh, I've hugged him and kissed him on the cheek and told him just how like what an inspiration he's been to me on a number of occasions.
[2:41] SPEAKER_03: And so he he's the one that's always on the dance floor at the beginning of the event.
[2:44] SPEAKER_03: He really uh evokes the entire spirit of the adventure travel industry.
[2:49] SPEAKER_03: So I have a deep respect and appreciation for Shannon.
[2:52] SPEAKER_03: And obviously, we have I'm uh privileged to call him a friend.
[2:54] SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the things that I I want all of our listeners to know too, Shannon, um, is the fact that when you have these conferences and these people come together, like this, like this community, these are people that uh I had not met in other areas of the travel industry.
[3:10] SPEAKER_03: People come together.
[3:11] SPEAKER_03: The Adventure Travel Trade Association is their big annual conference.
[3:15] SPEAKER_03: Um, you connect so many smaller businesses in the industry that then come together for the Adventure Travel World Summit.
[3:22] SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to underscore the plans for Quebec City this year because when we were in Chile, I was so excited that it's coming to Canada to go from south to north.
[3:31] SPEAKER_03: And uh this is actually the third time that you've actually the and the first time you've held an event in a destination for the third time in a row.
[3:39] SPEAKER_03: Now it's Quebec City.
[3:40] SPEAKER_03: I know it's moved around in Quebec, but tell everyone just about that event so they can plan ahead to get involved.
[3:46] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[3:46] SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dan.
[3:47] SPEAKER_01: So it's it's the largest gathering of adventure travel professionals annually.
[3:52] SPEAKER_01: It'll be around 800 people, and we're capping it at that.
[3:56] SPEAKER_01: It is going to have a combination of adventures in advance so we can all fall in love even more with Quebec.
[4:03] SPEAKER_01: And then also we have sessions that are informative.
[4:08] SPEAKER_01: We'll have experts on a lot of different subjects.
[4:10] SPEAKER_01: We do workshops so that the delegates themselves get involved.
[4:14] SPEAKER_01: We have inspiration, and then we have a marketplace too, where buyers and sellers of travel can meet each other.
[4:20] SPEAKER_01: And then the media is an important part of our event as well, so that people in our industry can meet the folks who write the stories about the important subjects in the adventure travel world.
[4:32] SPEAKER_01: So it's really everything in one fun package.
[4:35] SPEAKER_01: So don't miss it.
[4:36] SPEAKER_03: For sure.
[4:37] SPEAKER_03: And just so everyone knows, with September coming, making the plans, one of the things that Shannon and I uh have planned for for this year is that with travel trends being there and recording another event spotlight, we're gonna be doing it in video with our booth.
[4:50] SPEAKER_03: Zach, our producer, is gonna be there as well.
[4:52] SPEAKER_03: So you get a chance to meet Zach who runs dinosaur trips.
[4:54] SPEAKER_03: He's very active in the adventure community.
[4:56] SPEAKER_03: We'll be recording.
[4:57] SPEAKER_03: And so for any of you that uh books your uh uh ticket to go to ATTA in September, the ATWS, send me a note, Dan at traveltrendspodcast.com, and I will try to make sure that we interview you as part of that feature so we can share your story.
[5:14] SPEAKER_03: So that's part of my commitment to Shannon and why I love attending these events.
[5:18] SPEAKER_03: And so there will be in Q4 later this year a special episode.
[5:21] SPEAKER_03: So that'll kind of bookend the year, but we're gonna do at least four episodes.
[5:25] SPEAKER_03: And today we are gonna do something really cool that Shannon, uh, concept that Shannon came up with.
[5:31] SPEAKER_03: Oh, over the course of year, we're gonna talk about the community, we're gonna talk about leadership and stories from the field.
[5:36] SPEAKER_03: But today we're gonna talk about legal in travel and protecting your business.
[5:40] SPEAKER_03: And Shannon, on our pre-call, came up with a fantastic name that you would have seen when you clicked through.
[5:45] SPEAKER_03: When bad shit happens to good people, legal lessons for the travel industry.
[5:50] SPEAKER_03: It's such an important topic.
[5:51] SPEAKER_03: So, Shannon, tell us about why you wanted to do this episode and please introduce the guests you've brought together for this.
[5:57] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Dan.
[5:58] SPEAKER_01: Well, legal is obviously a super important piece of the travel industry.
[6:02] SPEAKER_01: And I and I want to be really clear today, we're not gonna hit every issue.
[6:06] SPEAKER_01: Both Jeff and Cuny could probably talk for a week nonstop about all the issues that travel companies and professionals face.
[6:15] SPEAKER_01: So the goal isn't to have an exhaustive course today, it's more to introduce you to Jeff and Cuny and some of the top things that they think about and that the industry faces from a legal perspective so that you can also follow up with them later if you have further questions or you've been sitting there.
[6:32] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we all know how this is.
[6:33] SPEAKER_01: You've got one file on your desk that you're ignoring that you need to do something about.
[6:38] SPEAKER_01: It might be something legal or insurance or something along those lines.
[6:42] SPEAKER_01: So, this is hopefully to um to give a really personal introduction to the folks that can help you walk through what is really incomprehensible for the rest of us who are not trained in law.
[6:54] SPEAKER_01: Well, Jeff, why don't you uh why don't you jump in and tell us how you found your way into travel law and what does your practice look like day to day?
[7:02] SPEAKER_00: How'd you find ATTA too?
[7:04] SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys for having me uh join you today.
[7:07] SPEAKER_00: This is super exciting.
[7:08] SPEAKER_00: I'm thrilled to be here.
[7:10] SPEAKER_00: Uh I was born into the travel world um with a mom as a travel agent and a dad as a judge.
[7:17] SPEAKER_00: Uh, I could be nothing different than a travel lawyer.
[7:21] SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I started working in the travel industry at age 14 at my mom's travel agency.
[7:26] SPEAKER_00: And uh 44 years later, uh, I'm still here in travel.
[7:31] SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've been a travel agent, I've been a tour guide, and I've worked for two airlines.
[7:36] SPEAKER_00: So I am, I think, pretty happy with my life in travel.
[7:42] SPEAKER_00: I think that this is going to be it forever because I don't know what else I would do.
[7:46] SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I was just um scrolling through some social media, and uh, we spend some time on Nantucket in the summers, and I see the usual seasonal openings at jet blue for uh gate agents and rampers.
[8:01] SPEAKER_00: And I'm almost interested in applying for that job so I can go back out there and like check people in.
[8:07] SPEAKER_00: It seems super weird for a lawyer, but I'd be really happy doing that.
[8:11] SPEAKER_00: So uh, Shannon, I've been with you guys for more than a decade um doing ATTA-related legal issues.
[8:21] SPEAKER_00: And uh my typical clients are tour operators, travel advisors, fintech companies in travel, insurance companies in travel, some of the very large OTAs that people see every single day uh for their booking are people I try to help.
[8:40] SPEAKER_00: And Chuni and I are like in a great space.
[8:43] SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of our lawyer friends hate what they do, and we're like the polar opposites.
[8:48] SPEAKER_00: Like, this could be no better.
[8:50] SPEAKER_00: My favorite ATTA summit was Namibia, a place I never thought I'd ever go to.
[8:57] SPEAKER_00: And now think, wow, I'd go back there.
[9:00] SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean, just seeing how the landscape comes together in Namibia and Winhook and the city and the German influence there.
[9:08] SPEAKER_00: Just stuff that I would have never actually taken the time to learn about or ever visit, but for you.
[9:15] SPEAKER_00: So thanks for taking me to Namibia.
[9:18] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[9:19] SPEAKER_01: Man, that was quite the summit, wasn't it?
[9:21] SPEAKER_00: That was great.
[9:22] SPEAKER_00: You had people coming out of the sky, I think.
[9:24] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like airship.
[9:26] SPEAKER_00: That was me.
[9:27] SPEAKER_00: That was me, Jeff, but don't tell my lawyer.
[9:29] SPEAKER_00: Okay.
[9:30] SPEAKER_00: There's a slight risk involved in that kind of stuff.
[9:35] SPEAKER_01: That's right.
[9:36] SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Jeff.
[9:37] SPEAKER_01: And and Cuny, how about you?
[9:38] SPEAKER_01: How did you find your way into travel law?
[9:40] SPEAKER_01: Sounds like Jeff was born with a passport in his hand.
[9:43] SPEAKER_01: Um, not all of us are that lucky, but how about you, Cuny?
[9:47] SPEAKER_01: How did you enter the space?
[9:49] SPEAKER_04: Sure.
[9:49] SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Shannon.
[9:50] SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Dan.
[9:51] SPEAKER_04: Super excited to be here.
[9:53] SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, I think the question of how I got into travel law starts with how I got into travel.
[9:59] SPEAKER_04: I started my life traveling.
[10:01] SPEAKER_04: I I was in Japan and Korea and then the United States, all by the age of three and a half, and then spent uh kind of the rest of my teenage years and youth traveling, living abroad, living in different parts of the United States.
[10:18] SPEAKER_04: So it's really just been in my soul, in my heart, all my life.
[10:24] SPEAKER_04: And uh I would say I got involved with ATTA.
[10:29] SPEAKER_04: It was a combination of daydreaming plus intention.
[10:33] SPEAKER_04: So when I was like probably many people here working for somebody else, I have my own law practice now, but I was working for someone else and just kind of thinking about the future of my life, meaning the things I wanted to do.
[10:44] SPEAKER_04: I was at a trade association at the time.
[10:47] SPEAKER_04: So I was just like, huh, I wonder if there's a trade association for the adventure travel industry because in I'm in DC, there's a trade association for everything, every last thing.
[10:57] SPEAKER_04: So um I was pleasantly surprised to find one out in the other Washington.
[11:03] SPEAKER_04: Uh so but but at the time I really couldn't do anything.
[11:05] SPEAKER_04: I was working in a job, I just it just knew about it.
[11:09] SPEAKER_04: And then I left a couple years after that and started my own practice, and I wanted to bring in what I loved with what I knew how to do, which is the law.
[11:19] SPEAKER_04: And so I just reached out to info at the ATTA's website.
[11:24] SPEAKER_04: I didn't expect much.
[11:25] SPEAKER_04: I just said, hey, can I join as a member?
[11:27] SPEAKER_04: And Shannon reached out to me, was shocked, like the president of ATTA.
[11:32] SPEAKER_04: And uh at that point, he had lots of ideas about trying to bring legal topics to the community, and so that's how it all started.
[11:41] SPEAKER_01: That's right.
[11:42] SPEAKER_01: It was that was great, Cuny.
[11:43] SPEAKER_01: And then you you actually spoke at our adventure travel world summit in Mexico with Jim from Geographic Expeditions, and you guys did a session on risk management, and the feedback was really positive, and it was it was clear we were gonna have a great relationship.
[11:59] SPEAKER_01: And Cuny has supported not only the industry, but also is on the ATTA governing board.
[12:05] SPEAKER_01: And uh and Jeff, my first memory of you, Jeff, is I seemed to run into you at every travel business event that there was that I was at anyway.
[12:14] SPEAKER_01: I wasn't at all of them, but I kept meeting this lawyer named Jeff.
[12:19] SPEAKER_01: And uh we had some great conversations, and then you got involved quite a long time ago as well, and and came to, as you mentioned earlier, our our summit in Namibia.
[12:29] SPEAKER_01: So it's really, really great to have you both here.
[12:32] SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, we'll start off with some really basic stuff.
[12:34] SPEAKER_01: And you know, Dan, of course, if you you have ideas too, pop in here, but I'll just I'll just jump in.
[12:40] SPEAKER_01: Um, I think this is a question for both of you, and I wouldn't I I won't do that with every question, but but when you think about the top three things that you see tour operators either not doing or not doing sufficiently or completely enough, like let's just jump right into it.
[13:01] SPEAKER_01: What should tour operators be thinking about?
[13:04] SPEAKER_01: And if it's more than three, go ahead and uh and share those.
[13:07] SPEAKER_01: But lay it out there.
[13:08] SPEAKER_01: What are tour operators in your experience, because you've been in this space for a long time now, both of you, what are they not doing?
[13:16] SPEAKER_01: Jeff.
[13:17] SPEAKER_00: Okay, a tour operator is right in the middle of customers on one side and vendors and suppliers on the other side.
[13:25] SPEAKER_00: Tour operators can't live without their partners on both sides.
[13:30] SPEAKER_00: And they need to be contractually protected on both sides.
[13:34] SPEAKER_00: So you got to look to your left and look to your right and understand the legal implications of those people that are your friends today and maybe your opposing party tomorrow.
[13:45] SPEAKER_00: You hate to think of it.
[13:47] SPEAKER_00: Chooney and I can't help but to think of it that way.
[13:51] SPEAKER_00: You guys hate to think of it that way because you're all in this love fest of how this is a great travel industry, and it is until it isn't.
[14:00] SPEAKER_00: So that's if I were to just right off the top say what a travel company should be doing, it's really that protecting yourself with legal stuff.
[14:11] SPEAKER_00: I know you don't want to read it, it's too long, you want it shorter, you want it nicer.
[14:16] SPEAKER_00: Cuny and I can just use smaller font, I guess, and make it the same.
[14:20] SPEAKER_00: It just looks smaller.
[14:22] SPEAKER_00: But that's how I think companies really need to be uh best organized legally.
[14:28] SPEAKER_01: Chooney, what would you uh what would you throw in there?
[14:30] SPEAKER_04: Oh gosh, a ton of things.
[14:32] SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm sitting here like taking notes.
[14:34] SPEAKER_04: Well, I would say first is I a number like there are a lot of tour operators that are big, they have budgets, they're very used to consuming legal services.
[14:44] SPEAKER_04: The vast majority of clients I work with, because I focus, I'm not limited to adventure travel, is that people are really skimpy with legal.
[14:55] SPEAKER_04: And from our perspective, when you're running this kind of business, the marketing's great, you spend the money there, all these things to get customers, but they're not tending enough to the legal um protecting the house, right?
[15:09] SPEAKER_04: Protecting your house, putting in the locks, putting in the things.
[15:12] SPEAKER_04: And so I I think if if I were to make a recommendation, it would be build in a legal budget, you're gonna have legal needs, you're gonna have questions, you're gonna want Jeff for me to sit and bounce ideas around how to deal with an issue and um develop a relationship ongoing with a lawyer.
[15:34] SPEAKER_04: For both Jeff and I, we've been in situations where I've worked with companies for years and years.
[15:39] SPEAKER_04: We deal with what I call the meal work, the boring stuff, the stuff that doesn't make the covers dreadful.
[15:47] SPEAKER_04: Nobody wants to deal with that.
[15:48] SPEAKER_04: We understand that, but it's so so key.
[15:51] SPEAKER_04: But when you know things hit the fan, um, and they are things, it's not just one thing.
[15:57] SPEAKER_04: Um you have a team, you have the relationship, you have the trust, and you just jump into action and deal with the solution.
[16:05] SPEAKER_04: So build the relationships and build the budget for legal, even if it's small, that's scalable.
[16:11] SPEAKER_04: We can work within budgets.
[16:13] SPEAKER_03: And one thing I just wanted to quickly jump in, if that's all right, Shannon, on this topic, because Juni was my first friend at ATWS.
[16:20] SPEAKER_03: And and so that was it was really special that you're a part of this because for me, I was a little nervous attending the conference for the first time because I actually anticipated um that because the community was so connected and it's the I I was concerned that I was gonna be that kid on the school, the school bus that didn't know anybody, everyone else comes every year.
[16:40] SPEAKER_03: And Judy was on that bus.
[16:42] SPEAKER_03: And she kindly said to me, like, she introduced herself, she was very welcoming.
[16:46] SPEAKER_03: We did this tour, and I was like, that's why I say she was my first friend.
[16:49] SPEAKER_03: She made me feel comfortable and reassured, and and it helped introduce me to the ATTA community.
[16:55] SPEAKER_03: And but what stood out to me, and the reason I wanted to jump in and share that, was just how passionate she is for travel and for adventure travel specifically.
[17:03] SPEAKER_03: So, like it really does take a special type of person that has a passion for the industry and then the technical knowledge.
[17:10] SPEAKER_03: And I think that's so unique because there are very few people in this industry that have a legal background, and many people who tour operators that get into the space get into problems because they don't necessarily understand duty of care.
[17:22] SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, as Jeff did his introduction, as Shunia then said, there's so many other things I could say.
[17:27] SPEAKER_03: The one thing I just wanted to highlight that I'd love for you guys to comment on is this concept of duty of care.
[17:33] SPEAKER_03: Because where I've seen challenges in multi-day tour operators who then work with local operators, if there's an issue after uh someone's injured when they're doing a parasailing or a specific activity within a multi-day trip, there's just legal complexity as to, well, who had the duty of care in that situation?
[17:52] SPEAKER_03: Is the duty of care still on the tour operator?
[17:54] SPEAKER_03: Is it on the travel agency?
[17:55] SPEAKER_03: Is it on that local operator?
[17:57] SPEAKER_03: And I've seen some unfortunate circumstances, and clearly you all have, and I know we'll get into some examples, but if you wouldn't mind, uh, Cuny and Jeff, just explain that concept of duty of care and why tour operators need to be very conscientious as to when they're accepting that responsibility and what their legal obligations are to customers and their care.
[18:15] SPEAKER_00: So, duty of care is, you know, uh a legal phrase that uh Cuny and I learned in law school decades ago.
[18:23] SPEAKER_00: And it really has to do with the uh obligation of someone to do the right thing and take care of someone else when they're in your care custody and control.
[18:32] SPEAKER_00: And it's the duty that you owe them.
[18:34] SPEAKER_00: And uh sometimes when things go wrong, it's what a jury uh thinks about when contemplating what to do.
[18:41] SPEAKER_00: A duty of care for a tour operator uh most often means doing the best job possible when you're selecting your partners and your vendors, when you're doing vendor vetting.
[18:54] SPEAKER_00: Because tour operators are amalgamators of things, you know, widgets.
[18:59] SPEAKER_00: They collect widgets.
[19:00] SPEAKER_00: That might be the motor coach, it might be the museum, it might be the restaurant, the hotel, the adventure activity.
[19:06] SPEAKER_00: And so how you collect those widgets and build your tour is really what your duty of care requires you to do in a commercially reasonable way.
[19:15] SPEAKER_00: What would a reasonable tour operator do in a similar situation when vetting a supplier in uh Namibia, in Africa, in Antarctica?
[19:27] SPEAKER_00: And it's different in different parts of the world because we have Tudney and I are lucky, we have a like a worldwide practice.
[19:34] SPEAKER_00: Our the things we do take us all over, literally and figuratively.
[19:39] SPEAKER_00: And it's understanding the community that you're working with, and it's contracting with people who you have vetted appropriately, and that's clearly the highlight of a duty of care for a tour operator, I think.
[19:53] SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Jeff.
[19:54] SPEAKER_03: That's really helpful.
[19:54] SPEAKER_03: Judy, anything you'd add to that?
[19:56] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would just add that uh the the area that we deal with in this notion of duty here, uh, with respect to what Jeff is talking about, is it can get, you know, there's there's layers of it when you have a tour operator that's working through a DMC, a destination management company, and the destination management company then hires suppliers.
[20:18] SPEAKER_04: So uh we have to take a surgical look at the duty.
[20:22] SPEAKER_04: It can differ in terms of what it actually looks like on the ground, depending on where you are in that stack.
[20:30] SPEAKER_04: And so it's important to understand those pieces too, and to mitigate against the risk of that.
[20:36] SPEAKER_04: And that's what Jeff and I spend a lot of time doing.
[20:38] SPEAKER_04: And sometimes it can get complicated.
[20:41] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[20:41] SPEAKER_03: Well, uh, the words you just used surgical precision.
[20:45] SPEAKER_03: And that's no tour operator.
[20:47] SPEAKER_03: And this is where so many people get into this, get in this industry, they want to lead tours, they want to be a river guy, and then eventually have an incident, and it's just like, yeah, people are looking with surgical precision at who owned what aspect of the journey when.
[21:01] SPEAKER_03: So that's why I wanted to share that particular aspect.
[21:03] SPEAKER_03: But Shannon, obviously, um keen for you to lead this discussion.
[21:07] SPEAKER_03: And you have so many great examples uh to provide because you, as you highlighted, the reason you wanted to do this is because this is always an important topic at every event.
[21:15] SPEAKER_03: And these are the two stars of that conversation for the right reasons because people need this information to protect themselves, to give guests the best experience.
[21:23] SPEAKER_03: So uh back to you to share some of those examples and and and how you want to guide this forward.
[21:28] SPEAKER_01: Sure.
[21:28] SPEAKER_01: Well, and and I'd I'd love to ask uh Trunny and Jeff also, you know, when when I think of legal, I you know, because I'm no expert, I I tend to think of it in two main silos, but maybe help me and others, the the listeners, think about this.
[21:44] SPEAKER_01: I always imagine there's kind of two main categories of issues that you probably deal with.
[21:48] SPEAKER_01: I could be wrong.
[21:49] SPEAKER_01: One is situational.
[21:52] SPEAKER_01: So somebody gets injured on a trip.
[21:54] SPEAKER_01: There's you know, that's a situational situation or a reality, and then then there's The uh business disputes, where and I've seen this too, being in the in the ATTA 22 years, I've seen exactly what you described, Jeff, where somebody was best friends and then suddenly they weren't, and suddenly it got ugly.
[22:14] SPEAKER_01: And it's always really, really important to have those those legal agreements between partners crystal clear.
[22:22] SPEAKER_01: So at least that's not in question.
[22:24] SPEAKER_01: There may be other things in question, but that's not.
[22:26] SPEAKER_01: So are those the two main buckets, the the the physical risks that that that are inherent to traveling, and then the business conflicts that happen?
[22:37] SPEAKER_01: Are there others other categories that I'm not thinking of?
[22:40] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I'd say that um globally uh and looking from 30,000 feet, yeah, those are the issues that we think about.
[22:48] SPEAKER_00: We think about first of all, do you actually have a business or is it just you, the person?
[22:55] SPEAKER_00: Like Chooney and I would have a conversation with a new client and really try to understand from them when they tell us that they run a business.
[23:03] SPEAKER_00: Is it a business?
[23:04] SPEAKER_00: You know, just start from the very foundational building blocks of uh talking about formation of entities and legal things and moving on, obviously, to the customer part.
[23:16] SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody gets into this business to sit around drafting legal agreements.
[23:21] SPEAKER_00: There's not one single tour operator in the world that really loves talking to Cuny and I about legal things.
[23:27] SPEAKER_00: Uh and, you know, our clients are really broader than just tour operators.
[23:32] SPEAKER_00: It's all of the component people and parcels and things that make these uh trips happen.
[23:39] SPEAKER_00: You know, trips happen as a result of a lot of legwork planning, small companies, big companies.
[23:46] SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I have found over the years is that when um people are negotiating for the components of their trip, they're really interested in dates, price, and deposits and refunds.
[23:58] SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are like the big things.
[24:00] SPEAKER_00: You just want to know how much is it gonna be to put them on a bus, motor coach.
[24:04] SPEAKER_00: And Trudy and I are thinking like way deeper than that.
[24:07] SPEAKER_00: Like, we want a lot more than just how much is it gonna cost and when do we owe a deposit?
[24:12] SPEAKER_00: And that's often what the conversation really relates to is bringing people back down to the gritty details, the indemnification, the words that people don't really want to spend time talking about.
[24:25] SPEAKER_00: Force majeure, not all are the same.
[24:28] SPEAKER_00: Like just because you say the words, it doesn't mean you're gonna get what you think unless you've planned for it.
[24:35] SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think if you look at like what are the two big silos, I think you got them.
[24:39] SPEAKER_01: Anything to add to that, Juni?
[24:41] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would say um I kind of also think about it in a different stack in terms of preventative work.
[24:50] SPEAKER_04: There's proactive work and then there's sort of crisis response, right?
[24:57] SPEAKER_04: So on the preventative, we do all sorts of things with respect to advising clients.
[25:03] SPEAKER_04: It's do you have a booking terms and conditions?
[25:06] SPEAKER_04: Do you have a waiver?
[25:07] SPEAKER_04: Do you have insurance?
[25:09] SPEAKER_04: Uh are you set up as a company?
[25:12] SPEAKER_04: All of those things and ideas to prevent things from happening.
[25:17] SPEAKER_04: Uh there's also the proactive part, and when when I say that, I meaning proactively fortify your business as a business, right?
[25:28] SPEAKER_04: So it's not just focused on trips, it's a step back.
[25:34] SPEAKER_04: Your business has economic value.
[25:36] SPEAKER_04: What do you want to do with your business?
[25:38] SPEAKER_04: Do you want to grow it?
[25:38] SPEAKER_04: Do you want to get to a point of an acquisition?
[25:41] SPEAKER_04: Are you protecting your intellectual property?
[25:44] SPEAKER_04: Do all of those things.
[25:45] SPEAKER_04: And this isn't a parallel track.
[25:47] SPEAKER_04: So I always press, and I think this is something that the adventure travel industry uh I really am a big champion of that is you have a business, let's treat it as a business, and let's do those things that sophisticated companies do that is attainable to you too.
[26:02] SPEAKER_04: I've worked with companies to get their marks registered around the world.
[26:06] SPEAKER_04: Um, companies, when they go to acquisition, this is the kind of thing, and a lot of companies don't understand as tour operators that when you go to get acquired, they're going to ask you these questions.
[26:14] SPEAKER_04: Have you protected your brand?
[26:16] SPEAKER_04: What have you done?
[26:17] SPEAKER_04: Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[26:18] SPEAKER_04: So there's that piece of it, and then there's the crisis.
[26:21] SPEAKER_04: Something happens, we get that late-night phone call, the early morning, the middle of the day, whatever.
[26:26] SPEAKER_04: And we go in and respond to the crisis.
[26:29] SPEAKER_04: So those are kind of, I think, a few general pockets that a lot of our work falls into.
[26:34] SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
[26:35] SPEAKER_01: And so what sort of complexities have you have you run up against in, let's say, a trip?
[26:44] SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm now I'm going to the situational side, where it's multiple countries, there's some kind of dispute.
[26:51] SPEAKER_01: Where how do you how do you anchor that that situation for your client, which let's say it's a travel advisor, tour operator, or it might be everybody in the chain.
[27:02] SPEAKER_01: There's there's somebody that's there's a a traveler that is not happy.
[27:06] SPEAKER_01: There's something wrong, they're threatening or suing.
[27:09] SPEAKER_01: What you know, talk a little bit about some of the the more common situations that you see.
[27:15] SPEAKER_01: So our our listeners can be thinking about that.
[27:18] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would say on the sort of customer, something happens, someone's upset.
[27:23] SPEAKER_04: Uh, we diagnose what the issue is.
[27:25] SPEAKER_04: We want to look at the communications.
[27:27] SPEAKER_04: I would say in those situations, usually if you have an angry person, people are nervous about getting reported falsely or what have you, regardless of the merits, having to deal with some sort of issue like that.
[27:37] SPEAKER_04: They're worried about litigation.
[27:39] SPEAKER_04: Uh, I find that a lot of times to reporters just want to kind of give everything right away and capitulate to when there's not even a demand.
[27:46] SPEAKER_04: So I try to sort of pull back.
[27:47] SPEAKER_04: It's like you can be nice, but let's find out what a person wants.
[27:50] SPEAKER_04: It may not be that you need to give them a full refund.
[27:52] SPEAKER_04: But anyway, we'll sort of diagnose what's a customer dispute.
[27:56] SPEAKER_04: I always like to get a settlement agreement.
[27:58] SPEAKER_04: You would not be surprised at how uh companies will give a refund of some portion of a trip, and then the person comes back three months later, four months later, oh, by the way, it wasn't enough.
[28:12] unknown: Right?
[28:13] SPEAKER_04: They're like, we thought it was over.
[28:14] SPEAKER_04: I'm like, it wasn't over unless you get a settlement agreement and unless you get a release.
[28:18] SPEAKER_04: And that's why those are things that we talk through and we figure out how do we get that kind of assurance in a way that feels okay.
[28:27] SPEAKER_04: We don't give it, we don't have to give a 10-page legal agreement.
[28:30] SPEAKER_04: But these are the kinds of things we can sort of talk through and then paper over.
[28:34] SPEAKER_04: Then of course, there's always the something's happened and people have gotten seriously injured or they've died.
[28:42] SPEAKER_04: Um, I can't get into all the details about that, but some of the things, um, just issue spotting, things we have to deal with, of course, is immediate incident response.
[28:50] SPEAKER_04: How do we deal with the traveler?
[28:53] SPEAKER_04: How do you deal with death situations?
[28:55] SPEAKER_04: How do we deal, how do we get collect information about what's going on on the ground?
[28:59] SPEAKER_04: It can be very hard to do, especially if you have language barriers.
[29:02] SPEAKER_04: So we're dealing with that.
[29:03] SPEAKER_04: We could be dealing with trauma of staff, the tour guide.
[29:07] SPEAKER_04: Can't forget about them.
[29:09] SPEAKER_04: I mean, they're leading a tour until something happens, and then maybe they're not in a position to do anything at that point.
[29:16] SPEAKER_04: So we have to think of about that piece.
[29:18] SPEAKER_04: Um, when it comes to potential litigation, it's sort of while we're dealing with incident, trying to pull together evidence while we're going along as best as we can.
[29:30] SPEAKER_04: Um, there's all of that sort of evidence collection.
[29:33] SPEAKER_04: There is then the business relationships.
[29:36] SPEAKER_04: I don't know, we have to have to talk to the DMC, we have to talk to the supplier, who's doing what.
[29:40] SPEAKER_04: And it can be tricky because there's different legal um legal systems and different legal expectations as to a DMC or a supplier or the tour operator.
[29:52] SPEAKER_04: And oftentimes they don't understand how invasive US litigation can be and what we need in the United States.
[29:58] SPEAKER_04: So we kind of have to act as the de facto fact gatherer, even if it's really the DMC that did all the work.
[30:06] SPEAKER_04: But we need to prepare the United States.
[30:08] SPEAKER_04: So those are just that's just like drop in the bucket.
[30:10] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Juni, you brought up two really interesting things there.
[30:13] SPEAKER_03: And I initially I was actually keen to ask you as a follow-on the types of initiatives you need to make sure you have in place for your company to be acquired.
[30:21] SPEAKER_03: And I think that would be really interesting for our listeners to know because you know, I could think one great example, Will Cannes, who runs Active England, who's been on the podcast both in Advent Spotlight and separately, he's a big part of the ATTA community.
[30:32] SPEAKER_03: He's been very um upfront about the fact he wants to sell his business in the next few years.
[30:37] SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure there are many operators that are in a similar situation that are only gonna discover things.
[30:42] SPEAKER_03: He so if he's planning now to exit in the next two or three years, there's likely things he needs to be planning for from a legal point of view to make sure he can sell to a private equity firm or to another company.
[30:52] SPEAKER_03: So, but you so I I really want to ask you both that question.
[30:54] SPEAKER_03: And I know Tuny, you're a bit more limited with time.
[30:57] SPEAKER_03: And so we want to make sure we get our questions with you, and Jeff's gonna be able to stay a bit longer.
[31:01] SPEAKER_03: But the other thing you mentioned that I also just wanted to uh to directly ask you is is when you talked about all the issues that can go wrong, one of the things that I've certainly seen is that when a situation occurs, exactly as you described, someone comes back from a trip, they're looked, there's an issue has occurred on the trip.
[31:16] SPEAKER_03: Sometimes there's local laws that have been broken that are actually nothing to do with the tour operator if there's been an assault or if there has been something that occurred that had to have been reported to police there.
[31:26] SPEAKER_03: And so there's everyone, and this is where I'm not gonna be able to cover everything today, and I'm I'm going somewhere with this question, meaning that the level of complexity to these legal situations, um, unless you have someone that is managing your insurance, looking at your, you know, all your training programs, making sure that your tour leaders know exactly what to do in all of these situations and do have at least a basic level of legal understanding and training, it can be very difficult to navigate.
[31:51] SPEAKER_03: So, my direct question to you, for anyone listening to that and their mind going, oh my God, there's all these things I need to be worried about.
[31:58] SPEAKER_03: How should they in 2026 be uh engaging with a lawyer like either of the two of you, or making sure that they've done their due diligence?
[32:06] SPEAKER_03: Because I'm sure a lot of people are just using Chat GPT now and saying, I don't need a lawyer, I can just use AI for everything.
[32:11] SPEAKER_03: And it's like, wait a second, no.
[32:14] SPEAKER_03: So let's let's let's nip that in the bud right now.
[32:17] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's we're just starting, I'd be curious too, Jeff, what you're sort of seeing.
[32:21] SPEAKER_04: This is a cross, not just travel, but everything.
[32:24] SPEAKER_04: You'll get emails from people like, well, ChatGPT says this.
[32:28] SPEAKER_04: I'm like, you don't know what ChatGPT is looking at, it doesn't really know your situation.
[32:34] SPEAKER_04: And frankly, whatever you put in Chat GPT is now public information.
[32:38] SPEAKER_04: So to the extent that you're trying to protect and have a frank conversation that's privileged by the attorney client privilege, you've just broken it.
[32:47] SPEAKER_04: We we have a case that came out of New York where you know somebody like put a bunch of information into Chat GPT who was an inmate, and um, yeah, courts like not privilege, whatever you put in chat GPT, now you turn it over.
[33:00] SPEAKER_04: So um I would say um, you know, I'm starting, I think I don't know, I'm thinking about how do we deal with it because one thing when someone gives me something from Chat GPT, it creates more work because now I have to go through that and say why it doesn't fit.
[33:17] SPEAKER_04: It's just a waste of time.
[33:19] SPEAKER_04: It can, you know, so anyway, I I may end up just saying, you know, we you know will not revise um or work with things that are generated via chat GPT.
[33:33] SPEAKER_04: It or not, and I'm not picking Chat GPT, any sort of AI.
[33:38] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like it just it just doesn't work that it doesn't work.
[33:42] SPEAKER_03: So that's why I wanted to make sure everyone knows like the and so to avoid that scenario, because that all of a sudden you're adding a new complexity in where you don't understand the subject matter, you're relying on a platform that you don't fully comprehend uh the answers it's coming up with to try and use them in a real life situation, not a good business decision.
[33:58] SPEAKER_03: And so I actually so for those tour operators that don't actually have a lawyer on staff um or a specific legal counsel, what would be your first recommendations to them hearing this and saying, wait a second, I might be exposed.
[34:11] SPEAKER_03: Where should they turn?
[34:13] SPEAKER_04: They're trade associations like ATTA, they have templates, they have resources available.
[34:19] SPEAKER_04: Um I mean, I think there are a lot of resources out there.
[34:22] SPEAKER_04: Just going to a general, you know, a chat GPT is not the place to go.
[34:27] SPEAKER_04: It says nothing about being a lawyer or having, and it can't be, obviously, but uh go go to trusted resources such as trade associations.
[34:37] SPEAKER_04: Jeff, I know you're very involved in other things as well.
[34:40] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you can also talk to uh your insurance company, you can get ideas.
[34:45] SPEAKER_00: You know, people who are in the business of helping you run your business usually have a to use an old word, a Rolodex of names, uh, like who to call for what.
[34:56] SPEAKER_00: You know, there's certain accountants that are really good with travel companies.
[35:00] SPEAKER_00: There's clearly a handful of lawyers, and honestly, luckily for us, it's really not more than a handful.
[35:07] SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, I don't know why more lawyers haven't found this amazing space.
[35:11] SPEAKER_00: Um, because honestly, this is great.
[35:14] SPEAKER_00: Our clients do great things, and uh, I think Juni and I get to really enjoy listening to them.
[35:21] SPEAKER_00: It's very rare that as a lawyer, you get a client who is so in love with their own business that they're gushing when they're talking about it.
[35:30] SPEAKER_00: And that's honestly a travel thing.
[35:33] SPEAKER_00: The people that we talk to, they are just in love with what they do, and it makes it easier for us to help people like that.
[35:40] SPEAKER_00: These aren't just corporate uh drones calling and asking some you know boring legal question.
[35:49] SPEAKER_00: These are people who are so interconnected to their business, it's really who they are.
[35:55] SPEAKER_00: And they're really fun clients to have.
[35:57] SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and I was just thinking about we we had a speaker, he's spoken at three of our events, a futurist named Thornton May, and he is famous for saying your network will keep you safe.
[36:07] SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking about how you know the ATTA and then Chooney referenced this.
[36:12] SPEAKER_01: We've got the the um the hub where members can find each other and ask questions like who offers you know pogo pogo stick trips in Nepal on the backcountry trails?
[36:24] SPEAKER_01: Or uh one time we had somebody come on and say, and it was a small operator from a developing destination, and they were fairly new in the business, and he just simply came on and said, I had a fatality on a trip and I have no idea what to do.
[36:39] SPEAKER_01: And one of the bigger, more experienced operators came in and said, Hey, buddy, give me your email address.
[36:44] SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna send you the checklist of what of everything you need to consider and go through.
[36:49] SPEAKER_01: You know, that was part one.
[36:51] SPEAKER_01: Part two is he should have had um some sort of legal representation so that he had somebody to call to say, you know, we're gonna have an issue.
[37:00] SPEAKER_01: This person tripped and fell and and you know was 88 years old and didn't make it from the from the fall.
[37:08] SPEAKER_01: So I think the network is really important, but still having those experts in your back pocket's not the right term, but having those experts in your corner when you're in the ring serving up adventure travel boxing, you know, it's it's gonna be really important to have have that uh those resources there.
[37:27] SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, Jeff and and Tuny, you've seen so many, you've worked with so many companies over the years on a scale of zero to five, zero being absolutely unprepared, five being so tight, watertight that you're not worried about them.
[37:42] SPEAKER_01: When you when companies bring you in to look at their crisis management and risk management plans, got gut sense on average.
[37:51] SPEAKER_01: Where's that number in the adventure industry?
[37:54] SPEAKER_01: Where are people at?
[37:55] SPEAKER_01: No higher than three.
[37:57] SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would say one to three.
[37:59] SPEAKER_04: That's the number in my head was three.
[38:02] SPEAKER_01: Really?
[38:03] SPEAKER_04: But when they when they initially come to us, yeah.
[38:06] SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
[38:07] SPEAKER_01: And those are those are two obviously incredibly important things to have ready.
[38:11] SPEAKER_01: One being the the preventative, the the the risk management plan.
[38:16] SPEAKER_01: And and do you often find yourself recommending training programs for operators, or are there do you have resources that you give to operators for creating good risk management plans and preventative?
[38:29] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you can spend as little as like no money making your risk management plan or thousands of dollars making a risk management plan.
[38:39] SPEAKER_00: And uh for most companies, they know to get insurance, they have to at least have something that says crisis management plan.
[38:47] SPEAKER_00: And that might just be a one piece of paper with their phone tree of who's gonna get called first.
[38:53] SPEAKER_00: Your lawyer, call your lawyer right at the beginning.
[38:57] SPEAKER_00: Um, but really, it's a thing that needs more.
[39:00] SPEAKER_00: And there are companies that will help you really professionally and personally develop crisis plans.
[39:07] SPEAKER_00: But those are things that Cuny and I do uh to help companies navigate the risk.
[39:12] SPEAKER_00: Travel has risk.
[39:13] SPEAKER_00: Like we can't get rid of it.
[39:16] SPEAKER_00: So we just have to help deal with it as best as practicable.
[39:21] SPEAKER_00: And that's an important phrase because it's the practicability of what we do.
[39:27] SPEAKER_00: Adventure travel has risk.
[39:29] SPEAKER_00: Guys, that's just life.
[39:31] SPEAKER_00: But how do we mitigate it?
[39:33] SPEAKER_00: What can we do to make it softer?
[39:34] SPEAKER_00: What can we do to take the rough edges off it as best we can without exposing ourselves to more danger by underselling the risk?
[39:44] SPEAKER_00: Like we can't undersell the risk.
[39:47] SPEAKER_00: So that's how I kind of take on that.
[39:50] SPEAKER_03: No, thank you for that, Jeff.
[39:51] SPEAKER_03: I know, Cuny, you're gonna have to head off shortly.
[39:53] SPEAKER_03: I know you have to go to the airport.
[39:54] SPEAKER_03: And and Shannon, I know we agreed, no lawyer jokes at the beginning, so I'm not gonna talk about you know, billing by the hour and needing to be uh wrapped up because you're always very generous with your time.
[40:03] SPEAKER_03: But I know you do have a tight schedule given a flight you need to catch.
[40:06] SPEAKER_03: So I want to be mindful of that.
[40:07] SPEAKER_03: Um, so before we do let you go, and hopefully, obviously, we'll have you back and we'll continue these conversations and you'll be at upcoming conferences.
[40:14] SPEAKER_03: I would love for you to leave us with kind of what your one recommendation would be for anyone like tuning into this conversation, knowing what we wanted to cover today.
[40:22] SPEAKER_03: What is one thing you'd like to leave everyone as a takeaway?
[40:25] SPEAKER_03: And then as far as connecting with you, if that would be a benefit for our listeners or you know, for you to be able to collaborate with anyone that might uh uh see a partnership opportunity, uh very keen for you to share your details as well, if that would be helpful.
[40:39] SPEAKER_04: Great, thank you.
[40:39] SPEAKER_04: And my well go back to uh my initial comment is just don't be intimidated by the legal process or legal fees.
[40:50] SPEAKER_04: I spent a lot of time talking to potential clients about what is their budget, what do they need?
[40:58] SPEAKER_04: Can we give them the silver version?
[40:59] SPEAKER_04: Can we give them the bronze version?
[41:01] SPEAKER_04: Can we give them the gold?
[41:03] SPEAKER_04: So just get started.
[41:04] SPEAKER_04: Pick the one thing off your list that has been lingering and contact a lawyer or figure out what's that next step to get that short up and create a budget.
[41:19] SPEAKER_04: You know, even if it's a thousand dollars for the year, pick a budget, pick the thing, and that's my takeaway.
[41:28] SPEAKER_04: Um, should anyone want to get in touch with me?
[41:31] SPEAKER_04: My email address is tune at ct rightlaw, so it's c h U N like Nancy at C like Charlie, T like Tracy, W-R-I-G-H-Tlaw.com comes directly to me.
[41:44] SPEAKER_04: Just say that you were listening to this podcast, and I'd be happy to have a chat.
[41:50] SPEAKER_04: So thank you.
[41:51] SPEAKER_04: It was great today.
[41:53] SPEAKER_03: No, thank you so much.
[41:54] SPEAKER_03: And I just wanted to just underscore what you just shared that I want to make sure that uh when you mentioned about the cost, instantly people are absolutely concerned about the unknown and assuming it's gonna, but what I wanted just to highlight is the cost of inaction and not preparation and not actually is actually far greater.
[42:11] SPEAKER_03: And so uh and then finding the right person to engage with, that's why I asked the question.
[42:15] SPEAKER_03: And obviously, the two of you are um perfect examples of that.
[42:18] SPEAKER_03: That and so and that's why I wanted to make sure that people could reach out to you because you know, getting to know you and having you a part of the conversation today, I know a lot of people will be able to benefit from your assistance and not to not reach out because they're concerned about the cost of it.
[42:30] SPEAKER_03: It's actually, you know, it's like Juni's lovely, she's like very helpful.
[42:34] SPEAKER_03: It's just like reach out if you need some guidance and assistance, and you'll be better off for it.
[42:38] SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
[42:39] SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining this.
[42:40] SPEAKER_03: And um, and I look forward to keeping in touch with you.
[42:42] SPEAKER_03: And Shannon, anything else for Tuny before we uh we let her go?
[42:46] SPEAKER_01: No, thanks, Juni.
[42:48] SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, I have a million questions, but um we'll we'll hit those uh hit those in our various events that we're together at.
[42:54] SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much for being a part of this today.
[42:57] SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate it.
[42:58] SPEAKER_01: Safe travels, and we'll look forward to talking soon.
[43:02] SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
[43:03] SPEAKER_04: It was a pleasure.
[43:05] SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
[43:05] SPEAKER_03: It was so great to have Juni join.
[43:07] SPEAKER_03: Thanks for bringing her in, Shannon.
[43:08] SPEAKER_03: And obviously now we have the pleasure of continuing with Jeff.
[43:12] SPEAKER_03: I mean, clearly both of you guys are shining stars in this regard and great examples of what uh um of great examples of of people in the industry that mean well and um and have good intentions.
[43:25] SPEAKER_03: And I think that's one reason that people might avoid lawyers, is because that that I'm gonna reference it now, Shannon, like the old joke about like why, you know, trying to avoid lawyers.
[43:35] SPEAKER_03: And it's actually, no, this is incredibly important.
[43:37] SPEAKER_03: So I hope if anything from this conversation, just as we left with Juni, and now speaking to you, Jeff, to get in a bit more detail for some of the other questions I know Shannon I are keen to cover, is making people feel empowered to reach out to people like you, uh, to be able to address these issues before they come up, or if they have an issue, to make sure they get the right expert as early as possible uh to help them navigate a crisis.
[43:59] SPEAKER_03: So uh So Shannon, yeah, where would you like to go next?
[44:02] SPEAKER_01: Well, I th it's it's kind of a follow-up on my question to Choony and Jeff about on a scale of one to five, how do they feel like most operators are uh positioned in their risk and and and crisis management?
[44:17] SPEAKER_01: So I think what I would ask is for a small or mid-sized travel business without in-house counsel, what are the first few legal investments that you think are the biggest risk reduction ROI for those folks who are thinking, I want to do this, I just, you know, I've got, like Juni said, I've got a thousand bucks for it.
[44:36] SPEAKER_00: So in my mind, the single most important thing you can do is really have a good set of terms and conditions with your customers and that you've had them executed properly.
[44:48] SPEAKER_00: So that's a big deal for what we do because it's one thing to have them, but you got to communicate them to the people, and they gotta agree to them because buried in your website isn't conspicuous, and that's the word that judges look at all the time: conspicuousness.
[45:09] SPEAKER_00: You know, do the people really know what the terms are?
[45:14] SPEAKER_00: Um, have they agreed?
[45:15] SPEAKER_00: Have they click and agreed?
[45:17] SPEAKER_00: Have they uh signed?
[45:19] SPEAKER_00: You know, blue ink is still a thing, it's not as popular uh now.
[45:24] SPEAKER_00: And uh thank God courts have come to recognize that checking a box and docu-signing and audit trails, all of these things are really like they they make or break your story.
[45:39] SPEAKER_00: So uh tour operators call me all the time, and uh sometimes they're calling just uh to do some preparatory planning.
[45:47] SPEAKER_00: More likely they're calling because something's happened.
[45:50] SPEAKER_00: But uh when they call to do this planning, it's talking to them about how do you actually get your stuff to the customer?
[45:59] SPEAKER_00: When do you do it?
[46:01] SPEAKER_00: What's in it?
[46:02] SPEAKER_00: Who wrote your terms and conditions?
[46:05] SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
[46:06] SPEAKER_00: The answers are all over the lot.
[46:08] SPEAKER_00: I copied them, I took them from the company I used to work for, I found them on the internet, I used AI, I used a lawyer who doesn't know anything about travel.
[46:19] SPEAKER_00: I mean, these are all answers that, you know, if Tuny were here, she would say, Oh yeah, we hear these things all the time.
[46:27] SPEAKER_00: Because people don't really want to spend money on lawyers.
[46:30] SPEAKER_00: I get it.
[46:31] SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm frustrated when I have to pay a lawyer.
[46:33] SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, come on, six minutes and you charge me for that.
[46:37] SPEAKER_00: But, you know, it is kind of what we do.
[46:40] SPEAKER_00: We take that class in law school about how to bill people.
[46:43] SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a joke.
[46:44] SPEAKER_00: We actually don't take that class, but it would be a good class to have.
[46:48] SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the the travel people really need to know uh protecting their business is really three things having terms and conditions and contracts, having the correct insurance, and having a business formation.
[47:02] SPEAKER_00: And having the correct insurance is not easy because there's not a lot of markets out there for tour companies for insurance.
[47:14] SPEAKER_00: And when you're dealing with vendors in other parts of the world, how much insurance can they get?
[47:20] SPEAKER_00: Can they even get insurance?
[47:22] SPEAKER_00: What does it cover?
[47:24] SPEAKER_00: And the most important question about insurance is the one that people never ask.
[47:30] SPEAKER_00: It's what are the exclusions and what's not covered?
[47:34] SPEAKER_00: They always love to know, you know, how much is my coverage, how much is my premium.
[47:40] SPEAKER_00: But you gotta also say, hey guys, uh, what aren't you gonna cover?
[47:46] SPEAKER_00: Because you'd be surprised.
[47:47] SPEAKER_00: A lot of things aren't covered that you'd probably want to have covered.
[47:52] SPEAKER_00: Like my skydiving in Namibia, was that covered?
[47:55] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's probably not covered.
[47:57] SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's probably one of those things.
[47:58] SPEAKER_00: It's like in the small fine print that you gotta really um you know spend spend time talking to people, announce a prevention, right?
[48:07] SPEAKER_00: Isn't that the old expression?
[48:08] SPEAKER_00: I mean, you gotta have this preventative care.
[48:10] SPEAKER_00: It's like going to the dentist once a year.
[48:13] SPEAKER_00: I use that analogy.
[48:14] SPEAKER_00: People say to me, How often should we check in with you?
[48:17] SPEAKER_00: I say, Listen, how often do you go to your primary care doctor?
[48:20] SPEAKER_00: How often do you go to your dentist?
[48:23] SPEAKER_00: For you and me, Shanna, it'd be like, How often do you go to your cardiologist?
[48:26] SPEAKER_01: That's right.
[48:27] SPEAKER_00: Um but the um the answer is usually like, oh, every year or every two years.
[48:34] SPEAKER_00: And I say, Great, when you're going to your dentist, call your lawyer too.
[48:38] SPEAKER_00: And and people are like, okay, that's weird, but all right, I get the message.
[48:43] SPEAKER_01: So that was that was actually going to be my next question is how often should people take a look at these again?
[48:49] SPEAKER_01: And I know I think with Cuny uh being on our board, I think we're on about a year to two year rotation of just going through all of our, you know, all of our top level stuff to make sure that it still fits.
[49:01] SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously the world is in such a fast changing environment, it's uh we have to pay attention.
[49:07] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, uh Chooney and I, and and there's like, you know, just a couple other lawyers in our space, really.
[49:14] SPEAKER_00: The first thing I really do every day is I look at the news around the world because something somewhere in the world that I have never heard of or never known about could impact me all day long.
[49:28] SPEAKER_00: It could be an air traffic control strike in France, it could be volcanic ash, it could be an eruption of a volcano in New Zealand, it could be any crazy thing.
[49:39] SPEAKER_00: The bird flu, I mean, it goes on and on and on, not to mention things like war and extreme conflict and government unrest.
[49:47] SPEAKER_00: Um, what other lawyer wakes up and wonders, what's new in the world today?
[49:52] SPEAKER_00: And how is it going to change my day?
[49:55] SPEAKER_00: But that's what we do.
[49:56] SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're we're tuned into this like special segment of stuff.
[50:03] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[50:03] SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, it just struck me that you know I've spent a lot of time in Latin America, and I and I whenever I see a lawyer's sign on a window, you know, the translation as I understand it is advocate.
[50:16] SPEAKER_01: And and that's how I would really encourage people in the industry to think of think of your lawyer as your advocate.
[50:22] SPEAKER_01: We all need them.
[50:24] SPEAKER_01: You know, we need people who are going to be there when we run into speed bumps, surprises, or shocks.
[50:31] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[50:32] SPEAKER_00: So the word I think of um is counselor, because you often see uh counselor at law.
[50:40] SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I don't have any specialized training in counseling people from a therapeutic perspective, but I find I do that all day long.
[50:50] SPEAKER_00: I am counseling people on how to best do what they love doing and to look at some of the things that they don't really want to be thinking about or looking, uh regulatory filings, uh, U.S.
[51:07] SPEAKER_00: seller of travel laws.
[51:09] SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's the last thing in the world a tour operator wants to even possibly think about is are they registered?
[51:16] SPEAKER_00: And with the laws changing in the U.S.
[51:19] SPEAKER_00: having essentially 50 different laws in 50 different states and one federal legal system, there's a lot of things that you need to know about that are very hard to self-teach yourself.
[51:32] SPEAKER_00: And you know, you all talked about AI a few seconds ago.
[51:35] SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, good God.
[51:37] SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, crazy.
[51:39] SPEAKER_00: You see crazy things, and we get them from clients all the time now.
[51:42] SPEAKER_00: And it's so funny.
[51:43] SPEAKER_00: Like the font is all the same, the big bullet point things are all the same.
[51:47] SPEAKER_00: And you think, oh, did you like do this yourself?
[51:50] SPEAKER_00: Come on, it's just crazy.
[51:52] SPEAKER_00: So uh it it's it's actually increasing people's legal spend because we have to go through this stuff and like sort through it and say, well, why this doesn't make any sense?
[52:03] SPEAKER_03: Everyone's using it all the time and then trying to cover their tracks because they're cheating to create content, great contracts, whatever.
[52:10] SPEAKER_03: So one that's the reason I wanted to bring that up, is because one of the things I just uh I wanted to make sure that we did establish for anyone that was listening to this thinking, you know what, I think I can use Chat GPT for that.
[52:22] SPEAKER_03: It's not a substitute for legal expertise.
[52:24] SPEAKER_03: And that's one thing we wanted to make sure we got across in this discussion.
[52:28] SPEAKER_03: The other thing I wanted to go back to, if that's okay, Shannon, just with uh the expertise that that Jeff has on uh ensuring that everything is in place for a business to be able to be sold.
[52:38] SPEAKER_03: That was one really uh uh I thought that would be a valuable question for our listeners, um, especially the type of people that are going to be listening to this that are seeking this type of information and and guidance.
[52:48] SPEAKER_03: And just as I asked you that question, Jeff, I also wanted to highlight some of the takeaways I've had already from the conversation uh with yourself and and Cuny.
[52:56] SPEAKER_03: And one of them is exactly what you were both just saying, which is that the best legal protection is proactive, not reactive.
[53:02] SPEAKER_03: And so if that's another thing that people come away from this podcast thinking, is that, oh, wait a second, I need to get my house in order and I need to make sure that I'm prepared and then I actually get the right legal expertise.
[53:12] SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's two great accomplishments for um and another one that you established at uh uh Shannon was that contracts are essential even in informal partnerships.
[53:22] SPEAKER_03: And so if people don't understand their role or their responsibility, that's where it gets messy down the road, as you as you said.
[53:28] SPEAKER_03: And we've all been in those unfortunate situations where I thought we were friends.
[53:33] SPEAKER_03: And then and even how we agreed on that, exactly.
[53:38] SPEAKER_03: And now you're getting a lawyer involved, and now you're saying something that's totally different than what I remember you saying to me directly.
[53:43] SPEAKER_03: And it's just like it's really shocking when that happens.
[53:46] SPEAKER_03: It's upsetting.
[53:47] SPEAKER_03: And that's where to your point you were just making now, Jeff, you need a counselor because you're now to go to your lawyer and say, I thought I had a friend, I thought I had a partner, and now all of a sudden, this is the letter I just got.
[53:59] SPEAKER_03: Help me.
[53:59] SPEAKER_03: I need I clearly need a new friend and someone that can help me navigate this.
[54:03] SPEAKER_03: So um so yeah, so but back to the bigger question, which is what are the things you need to do, whether it be copyright, um, naming and trademarks, what are all the things that businesses need to be prepared for to sell their business?
[54:18] SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
[54:19] SPEAKER_00: Succession planning is the broad topic.
[54:22] SPEAKER_00: Uh, and succession planning starts the same day you open your business because it's going to not be something that you just want to think about at the last second when you're rushing to make an exit strategy.
[54:36] SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a developed strategy over a period of time, months, years, whatever it's going to be.
[54:42] SPEAKER_00: It's going to be something.
[54:44] SPEAKER_00: And succession planning isn't just for selling your business, by the way.
[54:49] SPEAKER_00: For these small tour operators, succession planning should include oh, I got to go have heart surgery, and what am I going to do at my company?
[54:58] SPEAKER_00: How am I going to run my company?
[54:59] SPEAKER_00: I'm picking on things that Shannon and I personally have experience with.
[55:04] SPEAKER_00: So it's the kind of thing where you've got to be ready to plan.
[55:08] SPEAKER_00: So when you asked about selling your business or being acquired or getting an infusion of cash from venture uh capital, private equity, which are all things we do like so often over here, um, it's having your business affairs in order.
[55:21] SPEAKER_00: It's not just using like pads of paper, it's having electronic folders and files and understanding what is your business, what is the profitability.
[55:31] SPEAKER_00: I love asking people how successful or profitable is your business?
[55:35] SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
[55:36] SPEAKER_00: I mean, you got to know something about your business.
[55:41] SPEAKER_00: I don't like numbers.
[55:42] SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, um, you got to get somebody on your team that likes numbers.
[55:47] SPEAKER_00: You got to understand, you got to know what EBITDA is.
[55:50] SPEAKER_00: You can't say to me, I've never heard of EBITDA.
[55:54] SPEAKER_00: Uh okay.
[55:55] SPEAKER_00: You've got to look it up.
[55:57] SPEAKER_00: Um should I hire her if she applies?
[56:00] unknown: Right.
[56:01] SPEAKER_00: Who is that EBITDA?
[56:03] SPEAKER_00: Um you got to get this information, like you got to figure it out.
[56:08] SPEAKER_00: And you you really have to uh protect your intellectual property, uh, goodwill.
[56:14] SPEAKER_00: Like, what is corporate goodwill?
[56:16] SPEAKER_00: Well, it's all the stuff that you can't really write down.
[56:19] SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's what your business is, and goodwill has extraordinary value.
[56:23] SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's understanding your assets and liabilities.
[56:26] SPEAKER_00: What contracts do you have?
[56:28] SPEAKER_00: Do you have uh trademarks?
[56:29] SPEAKER_00: Because they're valuable when you're selling your business.
[56:32] SPEAKER_00: Uh, you have to understand what are your risks and liabilities.
[56:35] SPEAKER_00: You know, are you uh worried about a tax audit?
[56:39] SPEAKER_00: If you are, what are your concerns?
[56:40] SPEAKER_00: You got to start to think about these things.
[56:43] SPEAKER_00: Every business has some kind of succession plan available to it.
[56:47] SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, sometimes our eyes are closed and we don't really understand the full nature of the options.
[56:54] SPEAKER_00: Uh private equity, great, kind of.
[56:57] SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's great, kind of, except they don't really love travel businesses the way we love travel businesses.
[57:04] SPEAKER_00: They love profitability.
[57:07] SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, profitability might come at a cost that you don't really love.
[57:12] SPEAKER_00: So uh family ownership.
[57:16] SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at some of these companies that have existed in the travel space and they're passed down generations.
[57:22] SPEAKER_00: Well, that's great until it isn't.
[57:24] SPEAKER_00: It's great until you get to the generation that doesn't really give a shit about your business.
[57:28] SPEAKER_00: And then what are you gonna do?
[57:30] SPEAKER_00: Um, so we have things like that that are important for um planning, for keeping your house in order.
[57:37] SPEAKER_00: Uh, but everybody really needs to be thinking, what what am I wanting, what do I want?
[57:42] SPEAKER_00: What do I want?
[57:42] SPEAKER_00: What are my intentions?
[57:44] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I uh the word intention is such a I don't know, it's like so very popular, right?
[57:50] SPEAKER_00: Having intentions to do things.
[57:52] SPEAKER_00: And so I think in this context, really, what is your intention?
[57:55] SPEAKER_00: Is it just profit?
[57:56] SPEAKER_00: Is it the love of your business?
[57:58] SPEAKER_00: Is it keeping it in the family?
[58:00] SPEAKER_00: Is it passing it on to employees?
[58:03] SPEAKER_00: Have an intention and try to understand it and you know, talk to people who can help you.
[58:08] SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid to ask, right?
[58:09] SPEAKER_00: Isn't that the takeaway?
[58:11] SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid to ask people for all the different things that just ain't your thing.
[58:16] SPEAKER_00: Ask somebody.
[58:18] SPEAKER_03: So helpful, Jeff.
[58:19] SPEAKER_03: That was excellent.
[58:20] SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was that was loaded with valuable advice.
[58:22] SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of things we could unpack there.
[58:24] SPEAKER_03: I know even eBIT.
[58:26] SPEAKER_03: I of course I just jumped in and make made a joke, but like earnings before interest uh uh taxes appreciation, like it's it's the the I see this all the time when I'm speaking to private equity firms who are valuing these businesses.
[58:41] SPEAKER_03: Um the questions I'm getting from them, and then I when you're speaking to operators, you see the disconnect.
[58:46] SPEAKER_03: And I what I mean by that is that what they want to know, you know, like they want to know their um um their true profitability, so like their actual the net net, like true, like the um um uh and that like with gross margins compared to um their actual net profits, and and a lot of operators exist on razor-thin margins, razor-thin margins.
[59:08] SPEAKER_03: And so if they get and this is this is a a challenge for them to understand this, it's so they're they're always just trying to keep their head above water, and so they don't always have a full understanding because they're just trying to keep the keep it afloat and keep the moving forward and trying to grow, but even with not a lot of profitability.
[59:24] SPEAKER_03: And but then the other thing that I just wanted to highlight too that you mentioned that you know private equity firms see value in things like permits.
[59:30] SPEAKER_03: You know, uh a lot of these operators who've been around for years have permits with national parks that are grandfathered in.
[59:36] SPEAKER_03: And I know when we've looked to acquire companies, this is something.
[59:38] SPEAKER_03: So you also have to know your value and know your worth.
[59:41] SPEAKER_03: Why are they coming to you?
[59:42] SPEAKER_03: Your business may be barely profitable, and all of a sudden you're entertaining a pretty exciting exit.
[59:48] SPEAKER_03: Well, understanding truly what the value of your business and making sure you get a fair deal.
[59:52] SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, there's there's a lot here, Jeff.
[59:53] SPEAKER_03: And thank you for sharing that.
[59:55] SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
[59:56] SPEAKER_00: I listen to people uh whenever we're talking about acquisition or being acquired.
[1:00:01] SPEAKER_00: I see just as many people undervaluing their business as those that overvalue their business.
[1:00:09] SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had someone the other day say, I'm not gonna sell my business unless I get 10 times EBITDA.
[1:00:15] SPEAKER_00: I said, Great, you're gonna have your business for a while.
[1:00:18] SPEAKER_00: Like 10 times EBITDA is a pretty high ask.
[1:00:23] SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not a normal thing.
[1:00:26] SPEAKER_00: Maybe if you're super duper special, unique, you have to sell all these special bells and whistles, but the general acquirer is not gonna pay 10 times EBITDA.
[1:00:35] SPEAKER_00: So uh I thought, well, man, she's on the high side.
[1:00:38] SPEAKER_00: And I talked to somebody the other day who said, I just want my business to continue.
[1:00:44] SPEAKER_00: I don't really care how much money I get.
[1:00:46] SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's worth very much, but I love my business and I love the name and I love what we've built.
[1:00:52] SPEAKER_00: I just want to keep it going.
[1:00:55] SPEAKER_00: I go, hey, it's worth more than like you're you're picking up pennies, man.
[1:01:00] SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get you dollar bills.
[1:01:01] SPEAKER_00: Like we're we're gonna do something here.
[1:01:03] SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[1:01:04] SPEAKER_03: And and this is actually a good point um you just made there.
[1:01:08] SPEAKER_03: Very valuable point, because when people see valuations in tech in particular and multiples of revenue, and the reality is most businesses are valued based on their profitability, and it's a multiple.
[1:01:18] SPEAKER_03: And in the tour operator space, it may be uh 5x or 7x on the high side.
[1:01:23] SPEAKER_03: It can be three, it can be lower.
[1:01:24] SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of risk involved.
[1:01:25] SPEAKER_03: And it's also when you transition it depending on the value of your brand.
[1:01:29] SPEAKER_03: So you're absolutely right, eyes not getting too wide.
[1:01:31] SPEAKER_03: This is the one thing that I actually I do find helpful for uh business owners to use ChatGPT for to reset their expectations and actually get so it can at least give you a guide of what else is out there and give you some better feedback.
[1:01:43] SPEAKER_03: So I think that that is a worthwhile use to uh uh to better educate yourself.
[1:01:48] SPEAKER_03: Um, but Shannon, I know we're we're coming close to time, and obviously Jeff is such a close colleague of yours, and and uh I'm keen to know what else you might want to cover with him for the ATTAA audience in this uh in this interview.
[1:02:01] SPEAKER_01: Well, I I from my perspective, we've we've done a good job of hitting a lot of things high level.
[1:02:05] SPEAKER_01: Um, like I said in the beginning, there's no way to have this be exhaustive.
[1:02:09] SPEAKER_01: So I think I would throw it to you, Jeff.
[1:02:12] SPEAKER_01: Having also been the subject of podcasts before, there's often one or two burning things in my head that I wish I was asked or that I could say.
[1:02:20] SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that you would you would like to throw out there that we didn't hit or didn't hit completely enough today before we wrap up?
[1:02:28] SPEAKER_00: Uh nobody likes a crisis.
[1:02:31] SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
[1:02:32] SPEAKER_00: No, I don't like a crisis, but you you you got to understand stuff happens here.
[1:02:38] SPEAKER_00: Uh I was in Utah two days ago picking up my daughter from a program, and I got a frantic phone call and text.
[1:02:46] SPEAKER_00: We've had an accident.
[1:02:48] SPEAKER_00: Uh one person's died, another has had her arm amputated, and she's 13.
[1:02:54] SPEAKER_00: And oh, by the way, it's in Nicaragua.
[1:02:57] SPEAKER_00: Can you get people here?
[1:02:59] SPEAKER_00: I had family care people in Nicaragua the next morning.
[1:03:04] SPEAKER_00: Like it's, you know what, it's not like Miami.
[1:03:08] SPEAKER_00: It's finding people to go to Nicaragua in like a couple hours' notice.
[1:03:12] SPEAKER_00: I have an automotive engineer going to Nicaragua tomorrow to look at the vehicle.
[1:03:18] SPEAKER_00: So nobody likes this kind of talk.
[1:03:21] SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's you know, it's sad, but bad things happen to good people on vacation.
[1:03:29] SPEAKER_00: So we got to understand that that's that's a tagline.
[1:03:33] SPEAKER_00: It's not one that we like to advertise, but spend a little bit of legal help money, uh, time knowing what you're gonna do.
[1:03:45] SPEAKER_00: No, nobody really loves it, but uh, I mean, I I've done some panel talk with Jim Sano uh, you know, about preparing and and and risk, and I think you were referring to that earlier with Cuny.
[1:03:56] SPEAKER_00: And uh, I mean, he's fantastic.
[1:03:58] SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are people out there that really know this world inside and out.
[1:04:04] SPEAKER_00: You gotta do it.
[1:04:06] SPEAKER_00: You gotta do it.
[1:04:07] SPEAKER_00: Shit happens.
[1:04:08] SPEAKER_00: You gotta be ready for it.
[1:04:10] SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
[1:04:11] SPEAKER_03: That is a powerful way to close.
[1:04:12] SPEAKER_00: That is a great way to close.
[1:04:14] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
[1:04:16] SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
[1:04:17] SPEAKER_03: Oh, this has been really valuable, really informative.
[1:04:19] SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad you suggested this, Shannon, and I really appreciate you joining us, Jeff.
[1:04:22] SPEAKER_03: It was obviously great to see uh Cuny again.
[1:04:24] SPEAKER_03: Jeff, I look forward to meeting you in person in Quebec later this year and seeing you at other events and keeping in touch with you.
[1:04:30] SPEAKER_03: And just so any of our listeners, too, just as we signed off with with Cuny, if people want to get in touch with you, Jeff, or your firm, hearing the care you just even shared with that situation in Nicaragua.
[1:04:40] SPEAKER_03: These are exactly those moments where it's just it's devastating, it's heartbreaking, but you need to have a good lawyer and you need to get the right advice.
[1:04:46] SPEAKER_03: So, uh, how best to follow up and connect with you after this?
[1:04:49] SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
[1:04:50] SPEAKER_00: So um there the Ment Law Group, uh, we're based in Connecticut, but I have seven lawyers that work for me.
[1:04:55] SPEAKER_00: Uh, some of them live in Texas, one lives in North Carolina, New York, Connecticut.
[1:05:00] SPEAKER_00: So we're really spread out around the country.
[1:05:02] SPEAKER_00: But the easy way to find me is Jment at Mentlaw.com.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
[1:05:06] SPEAKER_02: That's great.
[1:05:07] SPEAKER_02: Thank you again, Jeff.
[1:05:08] SPEAKER_02: Real pleasure.
[1:05:08] SPEAKER_02: And thank you, Shannon, for bringing Jeff in.
[1:05:10] SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
[1:05:11] SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure having Cunny and Jeff here.
[1:05:14] SPEAKER_01: Is I I always enjoy our conversations, even though sometimes it gets a little heavy.
[1:05:18] SPEAKER_01: It's just really important stuff.
[1:05:20] SPEAKER_01: And you don't want to be dial looking on Google or looking in a phone book when you are in a crisis.
[1:05:26] SPEAKER_01: So build those relationships early.
[1:05:28] SPEAKER_03: For sure.
[1:05:29] SPEAKER_03: And I hope this has inspired a lot of our listeners, both from the ATTA community and travel trends.
[1:05:34] SPEAKER_03: And so I know we have a lot of tour operators, certainly travel advisors listening to our podcast as well, to be asking the right questions, making sure you are prepared for what ends up uh being, you know, some unfortunate situations.
[1:05:45] SPEAKER_03: But as Jeff put it very well, sometimes uh bad things happen to good people on vacation.
[1:05:50] SPEAKER_03: And it's uh an unfortunate reality and not one that we want to be thinking about, especially when we're selling and promoting travel.
[1:05:56] SPEAKER_03: But the better prepared we are, then the better we can take care of our.
[1:06:00] SPEAKER_03: guests and make sure for the most part they have an extraordinary time and come back uh transformed and and having that experience that Shannon does such an amazing job on stage of highlighting.
[1:06:11] SPEAKER_03: So Shannon, I'm thrilled that we're continuing on our adventure series.
[1:06:14] SPEAKER_03: I'm delighted with the way that episode one and I was turned out for 2026.
[1:06:19] SPEAKER_03: I know we're going to see each other again soon.
[1:06:21] SPEAKER_03: We've got two other episodes coming up.
[1:06:23] SPEAKER_03: Thank you again for the partnership.
[1:06:25] SPEAKER_03: If you wouldn't mind leaving everyone where you'd like to go next.
[1:06:28] SPEAKER_03: I know we've talked about doing spotlights within the ATTA community of people that are driving innovation, sustainability obviously has been a huge focus.
[1:06:36] SPEAKER_03: We did an episode on that together.
[1:06:38] SPEAKER_03: Clearly there's some amazing leadership and stories from across the field of ATTA.
[1:06:43] SPEAKER_03: Tell us and our listeners where you'd like to go next with these series and then I can let everyone know how best to follow and find us.
[1:06:50] SPEAKER_01: Yeah absolutely so really late and I think you did a good job of just bringing it up the ATTA community spotlight.
[1:06:58] SPEAKER_01: You know there's nothing better than hearing stories about what your peers or your the folks that are working in your industry are doing.
[1:07:05] SPEAKER_01: Got a lot of great stories to to cue up there leadership and and stories from the field.
[1:07:12] SPEAKER_01: And then I know we're going to be working on Quebec City.
[1:07:15] SPEAKER_01: And then we have some some fun uh fun ones that I won't reveal yet because they're a little off piste.
[1:07:21] SPEAKER_01: So we'll uh save those for another day.
[1:07:23] SPEAKER_03: Thank you Dan you're most welcome Shannon and I'm always excited to get a text message from you when you have an idea for a guest and a concept so we can certainly keep those as surprises over the course of the year and and do some some drops of these ATTA travel trends series.
[1:07:38] SPEAKER_03: But yeah thank you again and I also just want to say thank you to all of our listeners both from the Adventure Travel Trade Association community and all of our travel trends listeners for following us on this adventure series.
[1:07:49] SPEAKER_03: Obviously you can find us on Spotify Apple and on YouTube.
[1:07:52] SPEAKER_03: You can find us on our social channels at Travel Trends Podcast and the website of course for ATTA is adventuretravel.biz so definitely reach out to them if you're not already involved and get engaged with future events.
[1:08:04] SPEAKER_03: They run a number of them globally so check out the website to find out where the next event is and join and become a member and until our next episode safe travels

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