# The Homophobic Trial of 4 "Satanic" Lesbians

An episode of [Outlore with Eleanor Neale](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1682504024), 1 Jun 2025, 52 min.

Audio: https://traffic.megaphone.fm/APO7063396155.mp3

San Antonio, 1994: Four Latina lesbians were accused of an unthinkable crime and spent nearly two decades in prison for something they didn’t do. In a time when queerness was treated like a crime, their identities became the only evidence needed to lock them up. But they never gave up. They spent years fighting to clear their names and fighting for each other. Today, we know them as The San Antonio Four. The accusations came from two little girls, just weeks after one of the women, Elizabeth, rejected advances from their father. In the midst of the Satanic Panic, their case sparked a moral firestorm and exposed a justice system all too willing to believe the worst about queer women. This Pride Month, we’re telling their story. Because when the world tried to silence them… they refused to stay quiet. Resources: The Innocence Project - https://innocenceproject.org/ https://linktr.ee/eleanornealeresources Watch OUTLORE Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@EleanorNeale Follow Me Here for Updates & Short Form Content: Instagram TikTok Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

## Transcript

[0:00] Hello and welcome to Outlaw Podcast.
[0:02] I'm Ellen O'Neill, and in today's episode, we're in San
[0:06] Antonio in 1994, where four young women were accused of an
[0:11] unspeakably horrific crime, something so vile I can't even
[0:16] mention it this early on in the episode for fear that it could
[0:19] be taken down. These women were thrown behind
[0:22] bars for nearly two decades despite a lack of proof that the
[0:26] crime even took place, and the reason why they were so hastily
[0:30] thrown in the slammer was because they were lesbians.
[0:33] In a time and place that was rampant with homophobia, these
[0:38] women had one hell of a fight ahead of them, not only to
[0:41] defend themselves against these accusations, but to defend the
[0:44] whole LGBTQ plus community against blatantly homophobic
[0:49] scapegoating. This is the story of the San
[0:52] Antonio 4 Outlaw. Happy Pride Month, everybody.
[1:00] This is the first episode that we're bringing you in the month
[1:03] of June, the gayest time of the year, all year round.
[1:06] I couldn't be prouder to be a part of the LGBTQ plus
[1:09] community. But Pride Month just hits
[1:12] different. It's a very emotional time
[1:15] because not only are we coming together to celebrate the
[1:18] progress and the achievements of our community, but we're also
[1:21] acknowledging the continued struggles.
[1:24] We're honouring resilience and giving a voice to the stories
[1:27] that often go unheard. So throughout June, Outlaw
[1:30] Podcast is going to be zoning in specifically on LGBT stories.
[1:35] And this case is 1 hell of a ride spanning decades. 4 Women's
[1:40] lives were shaken up and practically ruined on the basis
[1:44] of homophobia and satanic panic. But before we get too far into
[1:48] it, a couple of content warnings.
[1:50] This episode will cover a lot of sensitive topics, including
[1:53] discussions of homophobia, satanic rituals, child SA
[1:58] wrongfully imprisonment, and rape.
[2:00] As always, viewer discretion is advised.
[2:03] So the women at the center of today's case are often referred
[2:06] to as the San Antonio 4. They're 4 Latina lesbians based
[2:11] in, would you believe, San Antonio, TX.
[2:14] Growing up LGBTQ in Texas is not easy.
[2:17] Even still to this day, our community are, metaphorically
[2:21] speaking, subjected to a steady diet of holy water and
[2:25] homophobia. In 1973, Texas passed a that
[2:29] made homosexual conduct a crime. Simply being gay could land you
[2:34] in prison or at best with a few $1000 in fines.
[2:39] Why did you plead guilty to a disorderly conduct charge?
[2:41] Why didn't you fight it? Because of my job.
[2:44] Because if at my job, they would find out that I'm gay, I would
[2:48] be fired automatically. And that law was still around
[2:52] when this case happened. It wasn't until 2003 that it was
[2:56] finally struck down by the Supreme Court. 2003 is mental.
[3:00] Like, that is not history. That happened in my lifetime.
[3:04] But we're getting slightly ahead of ourselves.
[3:06] This case takes place through the 1980s and 90s, a time when
[3:10] San Antonio was super conservative and super Catholic.
[3:14] So being openly gay wasn't just not accepted, it was considered
[3:19] a sin by most people in town. So let me introduce you to the
[3:23] quote UN quote sinners at the center of this case.
[3:26] Anna, Cassie, Liz and Christie were four best friends and they
[3:30] were all super young when this case kicked off.
[3:33] They were all adults, but barely.
[3:36] Liz was 20, Christie was 21, and Anna and Cassie were just 19
[3:41] years old. All four of them were still
[3:43] figuring life out, still growing up.
[3:45] Most of them couldn't even. Order an alcoholic drink in a
[3:48] bar. And then one day these young
[3:50] girls were accused of committing A heinous crime and they were
[3:54] thrown behind bars for years. And somehow that is only the
[3:59] beginning of their story. So let's get to know the girls
[4:02] 1st and pinpoint how they all met each other.
[4:05] We'll start with Ana Vasquez, who was kind of like the heart
[4:09] of the friend group. She was the one that brought
[4:11] them all together. And actually, before I do start
[4:13] introducing a bunch of different names, I have to warn you, there
[4:16] are so many different people and different names flying around in
[4:20] this case, so bear with me. I am going to try and make it as
[4:23] simple as possible so that you don't get lost.
[4:25] In fact, if you have the option, I would probably recommend
[4:28] watching the video version of this episode since we'll be
[4:30] using a bunch of visuals that should help you to keep track of
[4:33] who's who. Anyways, Anna was the heart of
[4:36] the friend group. She grew up in San Antonio and
[4:39] she came out as a lesbian when she was around 18 years old.
[4:42] She worked at Little Caesar's Pizza place, saving up money to
[4:45] go to college when one day in 1991 her life changed
[4:49] completely. A girl her own age walked into
[4:53] the restaurant and her beauty stopped Anna in her tracks.
[4:57] It was love at first sight and this hot new bombshell was
[5:00] Cassandra Rivera. Cassie for short.
[5:03] Anna and Cassie got chatting and they immediately clicked and
[5:07] they began dating soon after. For Anna, it was a total no
[5:11] brainer. This was the woman of her
[5:13] dreams. But Cassie was a little bit
[5:15] hesitant to fall head first. See, they were in in very
[5:19] different phases of their lives when they met, even though they
[5:22] were practically the same age. But Cassie was actually a
[5:26] divorced mother of two at 18 or 19 years old and when she met
[5:31] Anna, she had only just left her ex-husband.
[5:34] It was a very confusing time for Cassie.
[5:37] Her two kids were still really little and being a single mother
[5:40] was very demanding. And on top of all of that, she
[5:43] didn't know how to feel about suddenly being attracted to this
[5:46] woman from the pizza shop. But the more time that Cassie
[5:48] spent with Anna, the more she realized that this was the
[5:51] person she wanted to spend her life with.
[5:53] And with that, the two of them let themselves fall madly in
[5:56] love with each other. They moved in together, and Anna
[5:59] helped to raise Cassie's kids like they were her own.
[6:02] Together, they created a really beautiful and loving home.
[6:06] Cassie's kids would grow up with two great moms, but not everyone
[6:11] was supportive of their relationship.
[6:13] Both of their families were very Catholic and neither of their
[6:16] mothers approved of their relationship at first.
[6:19] Hello. Over time, Anna's mom did come
[6:24] around and she accepted them. But Cassie's mom was sadly the
[6:28] complete opposite. She said some really vile stuff
[6:31] to Cassie and called her some awful names.
[6:34] Cassie could no longer go home and be herself without ridicule
[6:39] or argument. She was no longer accepted by
[6:42] the one person who was supposed to love her unconditionally.
[6:46] And as heartbreaking as this is, Liz, this estrangement LED
[6:50] Cassie and Anna to forming their own chosen family, which turned
[6:54] out to be a million times more loving and supportive than the
[6:59] family that she was born into. So introducing the final two
[7:02] members of the San Antonio 4 Elizabeth Liz Ramirez, we're
[7:07] going to be calling a Liz throughout this episode, and
[7:10] Christy Mayhew. Both of them knew Anna from
[7:13] school and at the time that they all became close, Liz and
[7:16] Christy were just friends. But not for long.
[7:19] They moved in together as friends.
[7:22] When Liz found out that she was pregnant and she was planning to
[7:25] keep the baby, the dad wasn't going to be fully in the
[7:28] picture. I mean she wasn't with the dad,
[7:30] but the dad was going to care for the baby, you know?
[7:33] And Christie being a good friend decided that she would move in
[7:36] with Liz to help with the bills and the housework.
[7:40] But soon enough, Christie and Liz fell in love the same way
[7:43] that Anna and Cassie had. And now we have 2 couples.
[7:47] So this group would hang out mostly at Liz and Christy's
[7:50] apartment that was like their safe space, their home away from
[7:55] home, as Anna called it. The girls were so young and just
[8:00] trying to figure life out together.
[8:02] None of them could have imagined that this apartment that they
[8:05] felt so safe in would soon become the center of something
[8:09] much darker. So now you've met the call for.
[8:12] Let me introduce you to the villain of this story.
[8:16] But to do so, we have to go back in time just a a little bit.
[8:19] We're going to zone in on Liz Ramirez.
[8:21] She was 20 years old at the time of this case, but she first came
[8:25] out to her mom when she was 16 years old.
[8:28] And sadly, her mother didn't accept her.
[8:31] In fact, she did more than just not accept her.
[8:34] She fully went down to the courthouse and declared that she
[8:37] was no longer legally responsible for her own
[8:41] daughter. And that is just so cruel.
[8:44] After being traumatically kicked out of her own home, Liz moved
[8:48] in with her older sister and her husband, Javier Limon.
[8:52] The two of them had two daughters together, Liz's
[8:55] nieces, and Liz felt a lot more comfortable and accepted in this
[9:00] house. That was until her sister's
[9:03] husband, Javier started getting reapy with Liz.
[9:08] Let me remind you, Liz is still a child at this point.
[9:11] She's 16. Javier is likely in his like
[9:14] early 20s to mid 20s. We couldn't quite pinpoint it,
[9:17] but he begins getting really affectionate with her.
[9:21] He would write her letters, he would call her my Angel and
[9:25] other pet names. He was fully coming on to his
[9:29] wife's teenage sister. The legal age of consent in
[9:32] Texas is 17, and we can't be sure just how old Liz was when
[9:37] Javier started coming on to her, but the only place that that
[9:40] distinction matters is in a court of law, in the Court of
[9:43] Outlaw podcast. Javier is a massive weirdo
[9:47] either way for sleazing on a vulnerable teenage girl.
[9:50] That vulnerability and trauma from being kicked out of her
[9:53] family home only adds a whole other layer to how fucked up
[9:58] this was. Eventually, Liz moved out of her
[10:00] sister in Javier's home and into her own apartment, her safe
[10:04] haven. As we mentioned earlier,
[10:06] somewhere along the way, Liz's sister and Javier get a divorce.
[10:10] We don't know what grounds that was on, but personally, if I
[10:12] found out that my husband was flirting with my teenage sister,
[10:16] that would be enough for me to file for divorce.
[10:18] I'll tell you that much. But basically, that brings us
[10:21] back to where we left off in the case.
[10:23] Liz is now pregnant and living with her girlfriend Christy in
[10:26] her own apartment. She still sees her two nieces a
[10:30] lot. Javier often brings them to see
[10:32] Liz at her apartment, or she'll take the girls out on plane.
[10:37] And then Javier finds out that Liz is pregnant.
[10:40] In a normal family, this wouldn't be a big deal, or it'd
[10:43] be a cause for celebration even. But Javier had always had a
[10:47] weird obsession with Liz, so he didn't take this news very well.
[10:51] He turned up at her apartment and told her that he wanted to
[10:54] be involved with the child. He wanted to help her raise her
[10:57] baby. Bit weird, no?
[10:59] He just kind of assumed that she wouldn't be a capable mother on
[11:02] her own. Liz politely declined the offer.
[11:06] But Javier almost won't take no for an answer.
[11:09] He insists that she needs help from a man.
[11:12] The child needs a constant father figure.
[11:15] Liz said to him that the baby will have a father figure.
[11:18] Again, I don't know too many details about the baby daddy,
[11:21] but I do get the impression that even though Liz was in a
[11:23] relationship with Christy now, the father of the baby still
[11:26] wanted to be involved. But again, Javier will not take
[11:30] no for an answer. He insists that he needs to be
[11:32] involved and even suggests that he and Liz should get married.
[11:37] They should live together, he should father this child.
[11:41] He sounds like a raging weirdo. She assured him that she really
[11:45] didn't need his help. She had the baby's father and
[11:49] she had Christy, who was going to help her through motherhood.
[11:52] And that's what really tipped Javier over the edge.
[11:56] He always knew that Liz wasn't really into men, but this was
[11:59] confirmation that she was dating Christie and this really did a
[12:04] number on him. His ego couldn't take it.
[12:07] This wasn't just rejection, it felt like humiliation.
[12:10] And Javier didn't handle humiliation well.
[12:14] So instead of moving on like a normal person would, he found
[12:17] another way into Liz's life through manipulation and
[12:21] revenge. And from here out, it's lies on
[12:24] lies on lies. It all started in the summer of
[12:28] 1994. Liz was about four months
[12:31] pregnant when a detective showed up at her house and told her
[12:36] that she needed to come down to the station.
[12:38] Liz thought someone must have died because why else would a
[12:42] detective be at her door asking her to come to the station?
[12:46] This was so unexpected. When they got down there, the
[12:50] detective told her that her two beloved nieces, aged just seven
[12:55] and nine years old, had accused Liz and her friends of sexually
[13:00] abusing them. They had apparently gone home
[13:03] after a week long stay at Liz's house and told their grandmother
[13:07] that the women, Liz, Christie, Anna and Cassie had pinned them
[13:12] down and sexually assaulted them on 2 occasions.
[13:16] Well, hearing this, Liz was in complete and utter shock.
[13:20] This was the last thing she expected to come out of the
[13:23] detective's mouth. She felt sick at such an
[13:26] accusation and immediately denied everything.
[13:29] She loved her nieces, she would never dream of abusing them.
[13:33] An interrogation begins and you'd think that the detectives
[13:36] would be drilling her about this horrific thing that she had just
[13:39] been accused of. But no, practically all the
[13:42] questions were about her sexuality, as if that was the
[13:46] crime at hand. They were asking her had she
[13:49] ever been in a lesbian relationship?
[13:51] Had she ever left her nieces alone with her friends?
[13:56] Were her friends lesbian too that she had left her nieces
[13:59] alone with? Liz said yes to all of these
[14:01] questions because that was the truth.
[14:03] She thought she was just helping to clear up what looked like a
[14:07] massive misunderstanding, but the second that she admitted
[14:10] that she and all of her friends were lesbians, it was like the
[14:14] detectives decided that that was all the evidence that they
[14:17] needed. But this wasn't your usual
[14:19] homophobia. The detectives prejudice came
[14:22] from some top tier conspiracy theory bullshit during one of
[14:26] the biggest moral freak outs in American history.
[14:29] This was the era of the Satanic Panic.
[14:32] It happened during the 80s and the 90s, mainly in North America
[14:36] and people were losing their damn minds.
[14:39] It's so crazy to look back on like so many people that you
[14:43] would have trusted to be level headed intellectuals fed into
[14:48] this conspiracy panic. People genuinely believed that
[14:52] there was an international satanic cult that had
[14:56] infiltrated daycares and preschools all across the
[15:00] country and were committing mass satanic ritual abuse on on the
[15:05] kids. Believers of Satanic panic
[15:07] thought that the mission was to sexually abuse children in order
[15:13] to destroy their minds. And then later when those
[15:16] children grew up, the belief was that someone would literally
[15:20] snap their fingers and suddenly all of these kids that had been
[15:24] abused would join the cult and the cycle would continue.
[15:29] They would then go on to abuse children who would grow up and
[15:32] then someone would snap their fingers.
[15:34] That is literally as well. When we were looking into it, I
[15:37] was asking my research girls. I was like, is this a metaphor
[15:40] that someone snaps their fingers and they join a cult?
[15:42] And they were like, no, they genuinely believed that someone
[15:45] would snap their fingers. I don't know who.
[15:47] But anyway, this was all just so insane.
[15:50] You even had cases of vigilante parents digging up the
[15:54] underneath of preschools looking for secret tunnels.
[15:58] The police also lost their minds over it.
[16:01] They started swapping tips with each other on how to spot Pagan
[16:04] symbols, and at one point, a toothpaste and soap company even
[16:08] had to publicly deny that they were secret agents of Satan
[16:13] because that's what they were being accused of.
[16:14] It's mental. But the maddest part is that all
[16:18] of this widespread moral panic began with the publication of
[16:22] one book called Michelle Remembers.
[16:24] It was written by a Canadian psychologist and his former
[16:28] patient about her memories of child abuse at the hands of
[16:32] Satanists. This book came out when there
[16:34] was already a lot of fear bubbling under the surface and
[16:38] it gave people a villain to blame for all of it, and that
[16:43] was Satanists, or at least people that they could accuse of
[16:47] being Satanists. This was also around the time
[16:50] that women were joining the workforce.
[16:52] The economy was also very rough and old school family values
[16:56] were being quote UN quote threatened by women gaining
[16:59] independence. And to make things worse, the
[17:02] religious far right were basically everywhere now
[17:05] preaching about how everyone needed to stick to the good old
[17:08] man wife baby blueprint. Anything else was suspect.
[17:13] The whole thing made parents feel like shit for leaving their
[17:16] kids at daycare. That guilt had to land
[17:19] somewhere, had to be taken out on someone, and so thousands of
[17:23] innocent people, especially those who worked in daycares or
[17:27] nurseries, ended up behind bars based on no real evidence.
[17:33] And it wasn't random who got targeted.
[17:35] It was very common for the defendants to either be gay or
[17:39] even just suspected of being gay, and that made them satanic.
[17:44] Apparently, in 1994, when the San Antonio case broke, most of
[17:48] the satanic abuse hysteria of the 80s had started to fade, but
[17:53] not entirely. It was lingering its way into
[17:55] the 90s enough to latch on to this case massively.
[17:59] As you guys probably already know, in pretty much any sexual
[18:02] assault case, there's usually a medical exam involved, and it's
[18:06] one of those awful yet necessary steps that victims have to take
[18:11] to prove the truth. And these two little girls in
[18:13] this case had to go through a medical exam, so they were taken
[18:17] to a pediatrician. But this doctor wasn't exactly
[18:21] what you would call unbiased, because once she learned that
[18:25] the accused women were lesbians, she wrote in her notes that
[18:29] there were indeed signs, kinds of possible satanic ritual
[18:34] abuse. And we'll come back to that in
[18:36] just a second. But it was that one sentence in
[18:39] the doctor's notes that started the total shitstorm that
[18:43] followed for the San Antonio 4. The police became convinced that
[18:48] some dark, twisted thing had happened here.
[18:51] So what was it that this doctor had supposedly seen that led her
[18:55] to write that on the file? Well, I'm going to walk you
[18:58] through it because it is key to the case, but I'll do so without
[19:01] going into anything too graphic. The doctor claimed to have found
[19:05] tiny scars on the girls, private areas that were only two to
[19:10] three centimeters, really quite tiny.
[19:12] But the doctor determined that this showed signs of sexual
[19:16] abuse. Something you need to know is
[19:18] that about 15 years leading up to this case, there was like a
[19:22] new area of knowledge about what children's bodies should look
[19:27] like. And if a child didn't match that
[19:29] model, it was sometimes seen as signs of sexual abuse.
[19:33] These two little girls didn't match that model.
[19:37] These days, we have a much better understanding that every
[19:40] woman's body, every girl's body, is different.
[19:43] We don't all develop in the same way.
[19:45] But back then, if a woman or a girl didn't look exactly like
[19:49] the diagrams, then something must be wrong.
[19:51] And in this case, it was determined that the girls must
[19:55] be a victim of sexual abuse. But evidence like that can be
[19:59] really powerful in front of a jury because it's physical
[20:02] evidence. It's the CSI effect.
[20:05] Jurors will be more likely to believe aside if they have more
[20:09] physical forensic evidence because that kind of evidence is
[20:12] seen as infallible, even though that is not the case.
[20:16] So between that and the two young girls testimonies which
[20:19] we're going to get into next. It was starting to look like
[20:23] something really perverse had actually taken place, even
[20:27] though the science behind it was shaky at best.
[20:31] The girls were just seven and nine years old back then.
[20:34] The younger one was called Stephanie and her older sister
[20:37] was called Vanessa. So I'm going.
[20:39] To tell you one part of Vanessa's testimony, she said
[20:43] that she was staying at her Aunt Liz's apartment for a whole week
[20:45] in July, and on this particular day she was outside playing with
[20:49] her sister when the door opened. It was her Aunt Liz.
[20:51] Liz, she said. Come in, come inside.
[20:54] She beckoned to them sweetly. But then suddenly, once they got
[20:57] inside, Liz started shouting and screaming.
[21:01] It was like she transformed into this monstrous figure.
[21:05] Vanessa said that inside the apartment on the floor were
[21:09] three topless women. They all got onto the bed and
[21:12] started touching Vanessa, and then they started putting things
[21:17] inside her. But supposedly, the three women
[21:20] didn't say anything. They were silent the whole
[21:23] entire time. Vanessa's testimony is full of
[21:26] imagery like this. Like, you can picture the scene
[21:29] itself quite clearly, but what's missing is her emotions.
[21:33] We don't know how she felt as this was happening.
[21:37] We can imagine, sure, But that's something that Vanessa didn't
[21:40] mention at all in her testimony. It's almost a dreamlike
[21:45] sequence. And the San Antonio Falls
[21:48] defense attorneys caught on to this very quickly.
[21:51] They'd seen this kind of thing before.
[21:53] Fabricated stories all start to sound the same at a certain
[21:57] point. They follow almost like a kind
[22:00] of script with a particular pattern.
[22:02] And when there's any kind of pressure applied from the police
[22:05] or from parents or whoever, that pattern becomes even clearer.
[22:09] And I want to be really clear here that it's only easy for me
[22:13] to speak like this and be suspicious of a child's
[22:16] testimony because we're looking at this case retrospectively.
[22:19] I have no doubt that at the time everyone believe these little
[22:22] girls because why on earth would any child concoct such a
[22:27] horrific story and go through a physical examination if none of
[22:31] this was true? And hearing the girls testimony
[22:33] is always going to be hard, even knowing what we know now,
[22:37] because the stuff that they claimed happened is absolutely
[22:40] horrific. And even if you know it's not
[22:43] true, there's still this part of you that wonders, well, what?
[22:47] And that's normal. It gets in your head.
[22:50] So if you're feeling like that, get it.
[22:52] It's, it's really fucked up. It's a really unsettling case to
[22:56] dig into. And without going on a tangent,
[22:59] it's for that exact reason that I really wanted to tell the San
[23:02] Antonio Falls story because most people would find this whole
[23:06] thing way too uncomfortable to think about.
[23:08] But I just think there are so many lessons to be learned from
[23:11] this case. And the four women and by proxy,
[23:15] the whole LGBT community deserved better in this case.
[23:18] So anyway, my little disclaimer out of the way, let's carry on
[23:23] with Vanessa's testimony. She said that she tried to run
[23:26] away from the women but the door was locked and then there was a
[23:29] gun. First it was Anna Vasquez that
[23:31] was the one that pulled it out. And then Vanessa changed her
[23:34] mind and she said it was Liz that had the gun, not Anna.
[23:37] First there was 1 gun and then when she recounts the events
[23:40] again, suddenly there were three guns and then a knife.
[23:43] There were so many inconsistencies in what she was
[23:46] saying and it just didn't make a lot of sense.
[23:49] But The thing is, and bear with me on this because it might
[23:52] sound icky at first, but there is a point here.
[23:55] If you were to take the 2 little girls out of this story and put
[23:58] a man in their place, this story starts to sound like some
[24:02] twisted adult fantasy. Topless women lounging around,
[24:06] comforting each other and then slipping into the bedroom to
[24:09] make out. It sounds like a straight man's
[24:12] fantasy of lesbians. It sounds like what they imagine
[24:16] women do all day when they hang out together.
[24:18] But the reality of what happened was far less sensational.
[24:22] So let's look at the San Antonio Fours version of events between
[24:27] the 24th and the 31st of July 1994.
[24:30] Javier had left his daughters in Liz's care at her apartment.
[24:34] She didn't mind her niece's staying over at all.
[24:37] She was really close with them, and she was always happy to help
[24:40] out with the childcare and stuff.
[24:42] Her friends Anna, Cassie and Christy came and went from the
[24:45] apartment as they usually would. None of them remembered that
[24:49] much about that week, and that's kind of the point point.
[24:52] It was a very normal week, boring even.
[24:55] Nothing really happened. But a few months down the line,
[24:58] Liz had a detective at her door and all four of them were being
[25:02] accused of committing one of the most heinous crimes known to
[25:07] man. But not all of the women were
[25:09] approached by the police and detectives at the same time.
[25:12] About a month after Liz was first taken to the station, Anna
[25:16] and Cassie met up for a park date, and usually when the girls
[25:20] would go out in public, they would keep the PDA to an
[25:22] absolute minimum. You'd barely even be able to
[25:25] tell that they were a couple. Keeping a low profile was just
[25:28] part of surviving in such a homophobic city.
[25:31] They barely ever held hands or even kissed in public.
[25:34] But that morning, something was different.
[25:37] Anna didn't seem to care who was watching, she just really needed
[25:41] to be close to Cassie. She was really publicly
[25:44] affectionate to a point where Cassie was a bit suspicious.
[25:47] You know that gut feeling that you get when you're when you can
[25:49] just tell that your partner is not telling you something?
[25:52] Cassie felt exactly that and she asked Anna what was going on.
[25:56] Anna responded with something strange along the lines of they
[26:00] don't have much time left together so she doesn't care
[26:03] anymore. Cassie was obviously like okay
[26:05] what the hell does that mean? And Anna finally told her the
[26:09] truth, that they were being accused of sexually assaulting
[26:12] Liz's nieces too, and that they needed to start preparing for
[26:16] the worst. Everything happened so fast,
[26:20] things got really serious, and before they knew it, all four
[26:24] women were headed for trial. Before they even went in for the
[26:27] trial, all four of them had been offered a plea deal for a
[26:30] lighter sentence, but they all refused to take it.
[26:34] They were innocent and they weren't about to lie just to get
[26:38] off a little easier. And the women didn't exactly
[26:41] have the best legal support either.
[26:43] They had public defenders, and while I appreciate the hard work
[26:47] that public defenders do, seriously, like they take on
[26:50] massive cases with barely any resources, but this case, it
[26:54] needed way more than what the system gave them.
[26:57] Liz's trial began in February 1997, almost three years after
[27:03] the accusations were made, and it turned very ugly very fast.
[27:07] They went after Liz hard, but it wasn't about getting justice, it
[27:12] was about who she was about making the jury believe that Liz
[27:16] being a lesbian somehow explained everything that the
[27:20] little girls had said. Her sexuality is essentially
[27:24] what made her guilty. Liz's whole trial was so
[27:28] targeted. It was so personal.
[27:30] It was like she had lost before it even started.
[27:33] Even during the jury selection, they genuinely had a hard time
[27:37] finding jurors who weren't blatantly homo phobic.
[27:40] At the end of her trial, Liz was convicted of aggravated assault
[27:45] of a child and indecency with a child, and for that she was
[27:49] sentenced to 37 1/2 years in prison.
[27:53] Liz said that she fainted when she heard that verdict and as
[27:58] she was coming back around, the bailiff leaned down to her and
[28:01] told her to get up because they were letting her go, like go
[28:04] home. And for half a second she
[28:06] believed him, but it was all just a ruse.
[28:09] He had lied to her to get her back up on her feet so that he
[28:12] could cuff her and take her away to jail.
[28:15] When I got sentenced to my 37 1/2 years, I remember fainting
[28:20] because I couldn't believe that I was going to prison.
[28:23] And the bailiff tells me to get up so they can let me go to
[28:28] them. There was a joke that was just
[28:30] to get me up so they could handcuff me.
[28:32] At that point, just knew my life had changed.
[28:35] And that was the moment that it hit her that she wasn't going
[28:38] home. She wasn't going back to her
[28:40] son. Of course, by now she had had
[28:42] that baby that she was pregnant with all the way back in the
[28:45] beginning of the case. She had bonded to this little
[28:48] boy, and now that boy's mother was being taken away for 37 1/2
[28:54] years. Liz was only 23 years old, and
[28:57] she would be 58 by the time she got out.
[29:00] Her life would never be the same again.
[29:02] In fact, most of her life would be gone.
[29:05] So Liz was in jail. And one year later, in February
[29:08] 1998, the other three women's trials began.
[29:12] Cassie, Anna, and Christie's public defense attorneys decided
[29:15] to band together, pooling all of their resources, all of their
[29:19] defense together together, and they were going to go to trial
[29:22] as a group. But Anna's attorney even
[29:24] admitted that she was probably going to lose because nobody
[29:27] wants to stand up in court and tell a 7 and 9 year old girl
[29:31] that they're lying about something so horrific.
[29:35] These three women were painted as sick, twisted, satanic
[29:39] witches who had tried to sacrifice these two little
[29:43] girls. Well, because they were
[29:46] lesbians. That was the literal motive
[29:48] argued that they are lesbians. According to people in that
[29:52] courtroom. This is just what gay people do.
[29:55] What do you even mean? Just when you think it can't get
[29:57] any more insane or blatantly homophobic, they say that this
[30:01] is just what gay people do. Man, I like I just could not
[30:05] believe my eyes reading these kind of quotes.
[30:08] And if you're wondering like I was, how did the jury manage to
[30:12] overlook so many contradictions in the girl's testimonies?
[30:15] How did they not question why the stories kept changing and
[30:19] why there was one gun and then three guns and then a knife?
[30:22] Well, in both trials, prosecutors argued that none of
[30:26] that actually mattered because the pediatricians testimony, her
[30:30] notes from the medical examination, apparently proved
[30:33] it. That was all the evidence that
[30:35] they needed. The prosecutors would argue that
[30:37] that was basically enough to cancel out everything else that
[30:41] didn't quite make sense. And again, I can't fucking
[30:44] believe my ears. You can't just tell a jury to
[30:47] ignore evidence that seems inconsistent or flaky just
[30:51] because just because there's supposedly stronger evidence in
[30:54] your arsenal. Aside from the fact that the
[30:56] doctor's testimony will soon be proven to be just as weak as the
[31:01] rest of it. On the 14th of February 1998,
[31:04] Cassie, Anna and Christie were all convicted of aggravated
[31:08] sexual assault of a child and indecency with a child.
[31:12] They were each sentenced to 15 years in prison.
[31:16] This was never going to be a fair trial.
[31:19] People would rather believe satanic gay cults were
[31:23] committing mass abuse across America rather than just accept
[31:27] that queer people existed and were not out to hurt anyone.
[31:31] And because of that twisted kind of prejudice, it cost 4 innocent
[31:36] women their freedom. Liz took the verdict really
[31:39] hard. She blamed herself for the other
[31:42] 3 up in prison too. She carried a lot of guilt, but
[31:45] obviously none of this was her fault.
[31:48] And once they were all behind bars, she had no way of reaching
[31:51] out to the other women. Each of them had been sent to a
[31:54] different prison. They were completely cut off
[31:56] from one another. They can't write to each other.
[31:59] Cassie and Anna had been in a relationship for seven years
[32:02] before they went to prison. They never actually broke up.
[32:05] They didn't separate by choice. The prison system tore them
[32:09] apart. They were physically separated,
[32:12] not allowed to communicate, and so they lost all contact with
[32:16] each other. Cassie and Anna never got that
[32:19] closure, and they aren't together anymore.
[32:21] But Cassie believes that if none of this had happened, they would
[32:24] still be a couple. They would still be raising
[32:27] their two kids and living the life that they were supposed to
[32:31] live. Now, to tell the rest of the
[32:33] story, we're going to have to Fast forward about a decade.
[32:36] The San Antonio Four are still locked up, and they are still
[32:40] fighting to prove that they are innocent.
[32:42] Meanwhile, on the outside, the 2 little girls, Vanessa and
[32:46] Stephanie, aren't so little anymore.
[32:49] They're growing up, and with age comes a very different version
[32:53] of events. So in 2006, this biologist from
[32:57] Canada was doing research on female sex offenders when he
[33:00] stumbled across the case of the San Antonio 4.
[33:03] By this point the women had been in prison for about 8 years.
[33:06] And this biologist starts by writing to them in prison,
[33:10] asking questions, digging into the details, and he pretty
[33:13] quickly realizes that these women are clearly innocent.
[33:17] And so two years later, in 2008, he reached out to the National
[33:21] Center for Reason and Justice for some help.
[33:24] They're an organization that helps people who have been
[33:27] wrongfully convicted in totally messed up cases like this one.
[33:32] Oh, and one of the Co founders literally wrote a book on
[33:35] satanic panic. So the biologist brought this
[33:38] case to the right people. In 2010, they decided to reach
[33:41] out to the Innocence Project of Texas to start reinvestigating
[33:44] the case. And if that name rings a bell,
[33:47] it's probably because we've talked about the Innocence
[33:49] Project before on this channel where big fans of the Innocence
[33:52] Project here are outlawed. A while ago, we did an episode
[33:55] on the case of Angie Dodge. In 1996, eighteen year old Angie
[33:59] Dodge was raped and stabbed to death.
[34:02] Not long after, her friend Christopher Tapp was wrongfully
[34:06] found guilty and sentenced to 30 years in prison.
[34:09] But Angie's mum, Carol knew that something didn't add up.
[34:12] She kept digging, and with the help of the Innocence Project,
[34:16] they eventually got Christopher exonerated and the real killer
[34:19] was finally caught. But there are still so many
[34:22] stories just like this. the US puts more people behind bars
[34:27] than any other country in the world.
[34:29] And according to recent studies, around 4 to 6% of people in
[34:34] prison right now are most likely innocent.
[34:38] So if we put that at 5% right in the middle of that estimate,
[34:42] that means that one in every 20 people in prison have been
[34:46] locked up for something that they didn't do.
[34:48] And that's why organisations like the Innocence Project are
[34:51] so incredibly important. They help to free innocent
[34:55] people, prevent future wrongful convictions, and fight to make
[34:59] the justice system. Well, actually, just so far they
[35:03] have helped to overturn 253 convictions, but their clients
[35:08] collectively have spent over 4000 years behind in bars for
[35:13] crimes that they did not commit. Now, you don't have to be a
[35:17] lawyer or an expert to get involved with the Innocence
[35:19] Project. So the Innocence Project of
[36:16] Texas started reinvestigating the case of the San Antonio 4,
[36:20] but they had to start from square 1 and that meant going
[36:23] back to where it all started with Vanessa and Stephanie's
[36:27] testimonies. It was the 4th of August 2012
[36:30] when Stephanie, the younger of the two girls who was now 25
[36:33] years old, made a decision that would change everything.
[36:37] She agreed to meet up with the Innocence Project, and after 18
[36:41] years, she was ready to to make things right.
[36:44] Stephanie recanted her trial testimony, which basically means
[36:48] that she admitted that what she said back then wasn't true, and
[36:52] now she was finally ready to tell everyone why she had lied.
[36:57] She said that she and her sister had made-up the whole story
[37:01] because their dad, Javier Limon, and their grandma pressured them
[37:06] into doing it. And the way that she explains
[37:09] her real side of the story is heartbreaking.
[37:12] She remembers remembers it all, starting with her and her sister
[37:15] playing with some Barbie dolls. She said we're young, we're
[37:18] stupid, we're going to experiment.
[37:20] I get the impression that they were doing what I'm sure every
[37:23] little girl has done with her Barbies before.
[37:25] Maybe they were making them kiss or making them do other shit, I
[37:27] don't know. But the point is that Grandma
[37:30] walked in, saw what they were doing, and flipped out, locking
[37:34] the girls in a room. She tried to make it seem like
[37:36] the girls must have learned whatever.
[37:39] She. Saw from somewhere and it just
[37:41] so happened that the girls had recently spent a week at their
[37:44] Aunt Lizza's house. And that's when the questioning
[37:47] starts. What happened there?
[37:49] Who touched you? And even though Stephanie and
[37:51] Vanessa kept saying that nothing happened, nothing happened,
[37:54] their grandma and Javier just wouldn't let it go.
[37:57] And then came the threats. You're going to get taken away.
[38:00] You're going to end up on the street.
[38:02] No one's going to want you. I swear to God I'll beat you if
[38:05] you don't listen and do exactly what I tell you.
[38:08] That is the level of pressure that little Stephanie and
[38:11] Vanessa were under. It was absolutely terrifying for
[38:15] two kids to hear that they could be taken away or abused if they
[38:19] don't comply. And so they did.
[38:21] As an adult, Stephanie started putting the pieces together.
[38:26] She said that if there was any inappropriate behavior that they
[38:29] were exposed to as a child, it would have been from their dad,
[38:33] not from her Aunt Liz and her friends.
[38:36] Apparently, Javier would bring women home and do inappropriate
[38:40] things in front of his daughters.
[38:42] Stephanie didn't give any specific examples, but holy
[38:45] shit. Apparently Stephanie had even
[38:47] tried to tell her dad on multiple occasions.
[38:50] I don't remember anything happening to me, like about the
[38:53] whole sexual assault situation. But instead of listening to his
[38:57] daughter, he shut her down. He told her it did.
[39:01] You're stupid, you don't know. I don't remember anything
[39:04] happening to me, and he says it did.
[39:06] You're stupid, you don't know. Stephanie was scared of her dad
[39:10] then, and she's still scared of Javier now.
[39:13] But when the Innocence Project got in touch, she told the truth
[39:16] anyway. She did what she could to make
[39:19] it right and to help free her aunt and her friends.
[39:22] Javier had a lot of control over his daughter's life, lives.
[39:26] Vanessa and Stephanie were too scared to speak out.
[39:29] And even now, as far as we know, Vanessa hasn't recounted her
[39:33] testimony. Stephanie said it herself that
[39:36] she won't talk. Javier even threatened to take
[39:38] Stephanie's children away from her or have them taken away from
[39:42] her if she ever told the truth. And you might be thinking,
[39:45] surely he was just trying to scare her.
[39:48] But I mean, we've already seen the lengths that this man will
[39:51] go to in order to destroy someone's life.
[39:53] And in November 2012, he made on that threat to Stephanie.
[39:57] Javier went to court and tried to get Stephanie's kids taken
[40:01] away from her. Her own father is trying to ruin
[40:04] her life, all because she was brave enough to tell the truth.
[40:08] But that's The funny thing about telling the truth.
[40:10] It has far more power than lies ever do.
[40:14] The truth might have scared her, but the lies are what kept her
[40:17] chained to her father. The lies were always his.
[40:21] And by telling the truth, Stephanie could finally free
[40:24] herself to. Stephanie won the custody case
[40:28] and she kept her children. I really actually don't even
[40:30] know what Javier was trying to accuse her of.
[40:33] I think he'd just taken her to court just to try and make up
[40:36] that she was an unfit mother. Of course, the courts did not
[40:39] agree. And just like that, Javier Limon
[40:42] lost. He failed to silence her.
[40:45] In 2012, three of the San Antonio Four are starting to get
[40:49] released from prison. But even though it coincides
[40:52] with the Innocence Project getting involved, they weren't
[40:54] being released because because the court agreed that they were
[40:57] innocent yet. Ana Vasquez was released on
[41:01] parole first. She'd already served 14 years in
[41:05] prison, which was most of her sentence, and so now she was
[41:09] being let out a little bit early for good behavior.
[41:11] I think about what my plans will be when I get out of prison, and
[41:16] I really don't have any clue. I don't know if I will be
[41:20] exonerated. I don't know if I'll have to
[41:23] register as a sex offender. The other two, Christie and
[41:26] Cassie, we're going to leave Liz out of this for a while because
[41:29] of course she had a much larger sentence.
[41:32] But Christie and Cassie weren't granted parole for some reason.
[41:36] And honestly, we're not entirely sure why because their sentences
[41:39] were the exact same as Anna's, but they had to wait until their
[41:43] case was reopened by a judge, and only then could they be
[41:46] released on bail. Now, if you don't know the
[41:49] distinction between parole and bail, don't worry, I didn't
[41:52] either before this case. I'm actually a bit embarrassed
[41:55] to say that I've always been using those words
[41:57] interchangeably, but they are different.
[41:59] Anna was out on parole where the other girls were waiting for
[42:03] bail. So what does that mean?
[42:05] Parole basically means that you're getting out early,
[42:08] usually for good behavior, but you are technically still
[42:11] serving your sentence, you're just doing it outside of prison.
[42:15] There are rules that someone on parole would have to follow,
[42:18] like check insurance and such, and if you mess up then you'll
[42:22] be sent straight back to prison. Bail or bond means that you've
[42:26] been released while you're waiting on a trial or a legal
[42:29] decision to be made. It doesn't mean that you've been
[42:32] found innocent yet, it just means that a judge thinks that
[42:36] you don't need to stay locked up while the courts figure out
[42:39] whether or not you're guilty. So I hope that makes sense.
[42:42] Cassie and Christie were hoping to get out on bail soon and they
[42:45] wouldn't have to wait very long because luckily Stephanie had
[42:49] admitted to her false testimony and that would change everything
[42:53] over the next year. While Anna is free and the other
[42:56] girls weren't, she was doing everything in her power to help
[43:00] to free them. And what's crazy is that it had
[43:02] been 14 years since they'd last seen or spoken to each other.
[43:07] And that's one thing that I do love about this story, is the
[43:10] bond that these women had prevailed despite it all.
[43:14] Anna knew that they were in this together and she was not about
[43:17] to leave her girls behind. She was campaigning, telling
[43:21] their story, getting the media involved, and it was all paying
[43:24] off. The innocent since Project of
[43:25] Texas managed to get a hold of the original photos from
[43:29] Stephanie and Vanessa's medical examination in 1994, and they
[43:33] handed them over to an independent expert who reviewed
[43:37] everything and found that there were no signs of sexual trauma.
[43:42] There was nothing that they could identify as scarring like
[43:46] the original doctor had said. And when these new findings were
[43:49] released, the original pediatrician who had performed
[43:53] those exams actually recounted her testimony as well.
[43:57] She admitted that she was wrong, that her interpretation of a
[44:01] so-called scar was nothing but a normal anatomical variation.
[44:07] Medical science had advanced a lot since then, and what she had
[44:11] once thought was a sign of abuse was something completely normal.
[44:16] With what she knows now, the pediatrician said that she would
[44:19] have never taken the stand in this case.
[44:22] So that was it. There was no longer any physical
[44:26] evidence left against the San Antonio 4.
[44:29] The testimony, the science, everything that they were
[44:32] convicted on, none of it was ever true.
[44:35] On the 18th of November 2, 2013, Cassie, Liz and Christy were all
[44:40] released on bail. Watching them step out of prison
[44:43] and into the arms of their families is possibly one of the
[44:47] most heart wrenching reunion scenes I've ever seen.
[44:50] Cassie held her granddaughter for the first time.
[44:53] She'd become a grandma while she was in jail.
[44:55] Liz hadn't seen her son since he was five years old.
[44:59] He was now a teenager. That's how much time had been
[45:03] stolen from all of these women and their families.
[45:06] But they still have had a long way to go to be legally declared
[45:11] innocent. In April 2015, their exoneration
[45:14] hearing began. And this is basically their
[45:16] chance to prove in court that their conviction was wrong, to
[45:20] show that they were innocent. But if they lost, there was a
[45:24] real chance that they could actually be sent back to prison
[45:27] to finish the rest of their sentences.
[45:29] And for Liz, that would mean another 21 1/2 years in prison.
[45:34] So clearing their names wasn't just about closure, it was still
[45:38] about freedom. Life on the outside hadn't been
[45:41] easy either. Remember, these women had been
[45:44] locked up for most of their adult lives.
[45:47] It'd feel like being frozen in time.
[45:49] The world around them would have changed so much since the the
[45:52] last time they lived in it. Like texting for example.
[45:55] That was a whole new thing for them to try and get their heads
[45:59] around. When they were locked up in the
[46:00] 90s, texting was hardly a thing and now everyone's on Instagram
[46:05] and Snapchat and there's emojis. There's little fucking pictures
[46:08] in the text now. It sounds silly, but I can
[46:11] imagine it'd be really jarring to try to adapt to this new way
[46:15] of communicating and living that everyone else around you is so
[46:19] natural with. It's.
[46:21] Different When I saw my first cell phone, I didn't know what
[46:24] to do with it. The four women really leaned on
[46:26] each other a lot after getting out.
[46:28] They'd been through something that no one else could
[46:31] understand, no one else could relate to.
[46:33] They checked in on each other every single day, and romance
[46:37] even blossomed once again, Christie and Liz ended up
[46:41] together again. They tried to ignore their
[46:44] feelings at first, but eventually they found their way
[46:46] back together. It's adorable.
[46:48] But I do have to say, unfortunately, they didn't end
[46:50] up together forever. That would have been a little
[46:53] too perfect one that. But, yeah, I think it's nice
[46:56] that they had that reunion anyway.
[46:58] But the real challenge was trying to rebuild their whole
[47:01] lives after everything that they lost.
[47:03] Even after they were released, they were still on the sex
[47:06] offender registry. That meant that they couldn't be
[47:08] around kids. It made finding a job nearly
[47:11] impossible. We we still are convicted
[47:13] felons. You know that has not been
[47:16] erased at all. Right now we're still known as
[47:20] or females who supposedly molester some children.
[47:22] You know, nobody wants to hire a, you know, child molester or
[47:27] whatever. So.
[47:28] We are free physically, but not really.
[47:30] Like walking on egg shells still.
[47:31] Like a weight on your shoulders, you know you want your name
[47:34] cleared. So they had everything riding on
[47:37] this hearing going well. But there's another plot twist.
[47:41] Of course there was. I swear, look has never been on
[47:44] their side. In a cruel twist of fate, their
[47:46] exoneration decision rested in the hands of the exact same
[47:50] judge who convicted Cassie, Anna, and Christie back in 1998.
[47:56] How is that even allowed? His name was Judge Pat Priest,
[48:00] and let me tell you, the name is where the holiness ends.
[48:03] Because Judge Priest wasn't exactly known for his
[48:05] forgiveness. He reviewed the entire case, the
[48:09] outdated science that's been proven wrong, Stephanie's
[48:12] retraction of her testimony, and the fact that there was no
[48:15] evidence left to hold this case together.
[48:18] But none of that seemed to matter to him because admitting
[48:21] that they were innocent would also mean admitting that he had
[48:24] got it wrong all those years ago.
[48:27] And God forbid Judge Priest showed any mercy now.
[48:31] In February 2016, he ruled that while the women were entitled to
[48:35] new trials, there assertion of proof of actual innocence falls
[48:40] short of the mark. So even though all the evidence
[48:44] has been deemed useless, he's still saying that that's not
[48:47] enough to declare them actually innocent in the eyes of the law.
[48:50] The San Antonio Four were still guilty, but they weren't about
[48:54] to give up now. They had come way too far to
[48:57] give up now. On the 23rd of November 2016,
[49:01] they took their case to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.
[49:04] And this time, 9 different different judges would review
[49:08] the evidence. Thank you.
[49:10] And then, in a very long overdue decision, the court finally
[49:15] ruled in their favor. Cassie, Anna, Liz and Christie
[49:19] were officially declared actually innocent.
[49:23] It was the validation that they had waited for, for over 2
[49:26] decades. After years of prison,
[49:29] separation, and public shame, they were finally and fully
[49:34] cleared of all charges. The fight was over.
[49:37] The San Antonio Four had proved what they knew all along, and
[49:42] that's that they were innocent. Although they were once put on
[49:45] trial because of their sexuality, the San Antonio Four
[49:48] are now celebrated as lesbian icons of justice.
[49:54] They were once feared and judged and locked away for who they
[49:57] are, but now they're martyrs of a broken system.
[50:01] They turned all of that pain into power.
[50:04] And now the symbols of strength in the face of systemic hate.
[50:09] Anna is now the outreach and education director at the
[50:13] Innocence Project of Texas. She has continued to fight for
[50:17] others who have been wrongfully convicted, and she uses her own
[50:20] story, her own experiences, to create change.
[50:24] And she's not the only one. Cassie, Liz and Christie have
[50:27] also been using their voices, too.
[50:29] In 2023, the four of them came together to advocate for James
[50:33] Henry Reyes, who has spent 40 years behind bars or on parole
[50:38] for a murder that he didn't commit.
[50:40] James is an Apache Native American from the Hickory
[50:43] Reservation in northern New Mexico, and he's also a gay man.
[50:48] He was convicted after giving a false confession that I'm
[50:51] assuming was pulled out of him and for what the jury called his
[50:56] characteristics, which we all know is code for him being gay
[51:00] and Native American. The San Antonio Four saw
[51:03] themselves in James's case and they really wanted to help, Liz
[51:06] said. We all know what it's like to be
[51:08] incarcerated, pulled away from our family behind lies, crimes
[51:13] that never happened. They're fighting to make sure
[51:15] that no one else is ever wrongfully convicted again for a
[51:19] justice system that won't throw innocent people behind bars
[51:22] because of who they are or because of who they love or the
[51:26] color of their skin. That no one else has to lose
[51:29] their freedom because of fear or bias or ignorance.
[51:34] We care a lot about these kind of stories, outlaw stories that
[51:37] need justice and just don't get told enough.
[51:40] Wrongful convictions don't just ruin people's lives, they erase
[51:44] them. So that's why we need to tell
[51:46] their stories. And if you guys have any other
[51:49] examples of cases like this that you would want us to cover,
[51:52] please do let us know in the comments comments, and hopefully
[51:54] we can cover those too. But thank you so much for tuning
[51:58] into this episode of Outlaw Podcast.
[52:00] If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe leave
[52:03] alike and leave us a comment so that we can continue the
[52:06] conversation. If you're listening on a podcast
[52:08] platform, please rate US five stars and I will see you in the
[52:11] next episode. Bye.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.