# 2 Years of Taliban: 'Taliban Are Here To Stay, Till The Next Big Mistake'| Geeta's World, Ep 57

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 15 Aug 2023, 1 h 03 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/56477359/15_aug_23_gw_ep_57_mix_15_aug_128.mp3

It’s strange that we're sitting here on our Independence Day, in a free and democratic country that is India, to talk about how on the same date, 15th August, a couple of years back, millions of Afghans lost their freedom at the hands of the Taliban. Two years ago, Afghanistan saw a return of an oppressive regime which believes in stripping women of all their rights and locking them up in their homes. And yet, the underlying emotion to 15th of August, for both India and Afghanistan would be the same! Hope! Hope for a better future. In this episode, our host Anna Priyadarshini and foreign affairs editor at India Today, TV Today Network Geeta Mohan discuss all that transpired in the last 24 months of the Taliban rule in Afghanistan, since their return to power on 15th August, 2021. It now stands as an isolated country and not a single country has formally recognised their rule. When the Taliban assumed control, we couldn't help but wonder: Will this resurgence mark a new chapter in Afghanistan's prolonged and blood-soaked history of conflict? Could the Taliban's rule descend into disarray, potentially creating a fertile ground for international jihadists and drug traffickers? Nearly two years have elapsed, and the Taliban's dominion continues to extend across Afghanistan, with claims of having ushered in a semblance of peace and stability. How much of it’s true, the duo find out. Listen in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Kapil Dev Singh

## Transcript

[0:00] This is in the Today podcasts. It's been two years since Taliban's control of
[0:07] Afghanistan and now it's isolated with no formal recognition. And the Taliban was earlier
[0:13] overthrown following the American invasion in two thousand and one, and so when the
[0:18] Taliban took over this time, it was also predicted that the state would collapse.
[0:23] But it hasn't happened yet. Why this is not the Taliban of the
[0:26] past where they were unput uneducated men who had whips in their hands and would
[0:33] go around the streets. It is not the same in carpl They're engaging and
[0:38] amid lawlessness and no justice. Experts consider the International Criminal Court as a beacon
[0:44] for addressing crimes and ensuring accountability. Can it. Yes, while the ICC
[0:51] has the wherewithal and the tunes to investigate the matters, but in terms of
[0:57] pushing them into changing what they're doing and changing the policies would mean some action
[1:03] and no country at this point in time, I think it's willing to invest
[1:07] themselves in fighting the Taliban all over again. Hello, I'm anna PRODESSIONI with
[1:14] India to Day TV's foreign affairs editor, Geta Mohan where with Geta's astute and
[1:19] incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve into all that is urgent and pressing
[1:25] in world politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global
[1:32] ambitions of being a wish for Guru, Let's untravel Geta's World. This is
[1:38] the fifteen seventh episode of Keita's World. And I mean, it's a really
[1:45] nice occasion to be recording this podcast. It's our independence date. Geeta is
[1:51] at home, by the way. I'm in the office. How unfair,
[1:53] Geta. But I'm still working. There's a lot of work done. Yeah,
[2:00] I mean it's the the media jobs hassle, part in hussle that comes
[2:06] with it. We in the media, I'm in people who are in the
[2:09] business news Anna like you and I. I don't remember having a day of
[2:15] rest forever, even our weekends. I'm always entrenched in what is happening,
[2:23] who's saying what? We end up doing phonos or lives for television, writing
[2:30] our reports, so and we're thinking constantly We've not even in our holidays.
[2:35] Yeah, it's not a complete break. It's never never complete, at least
[2:40] for us or in the in this business of news gathering. Yes, I've
[2:46] not had a break in a very long time. And it's a painful love.
[2:53] Yes, but it is it is it is love nonetheless, Yes,
[2:58] true, and that is true. I mean I think vacations also, you
[3:00] know, you're just like wary of the fact that I get one phone call
[3:05] and this vacation gets canceled because something greater is and then you're lucky. It's
[3:10] only about maybe if you get a call. For me, it's about what
[3:14] it there's breaking news every vacation I've had, you know, breaking news and
[3:19] my family is in the pool or the on the beach and I'm doing a
[3:24] live somewhere in some Yeah for us, for me, has been that true.
[3:35] I mean that speaks a lot about you know, grooming as a reporter.
[3:39] Initially you crip, but later on you're like, we want that news.
[3:44] Yes, so well, independence stay here in India. But that is
[3:50] very strange, I mean quite strange because guitar like here we are sitting in
[3:53] a very free and democratic country, India, but we are talking about well,
[4:00] be talking about or how On the same date, which is fifteenth of
[4:02] Fogust two years ago, millions of Afghans they lost their freedom at the hands
[4:09] of the Taliban. This is the Taliban two point two. And you know
[4:13] Afghanistan, they saw a return of an oppressive regime which believes in stripping women
[4:19] of all their rights, locking them up in their homes. And yet this
[4:26] underlying emotion of you know, fifteenth of Fogust for both India and Afghanistan would
[4:30] be the same, that is hope, hope for a better future. Guitar.
[4:35] You know, this episode you will be discussing what has transpired in the
[4:41] last twenty four months. And we have previously also done an episode on one
[4:46] year of Taliban, right right, yeah, and this time it's been two
[4:50] years. So now Afghanistan stands as an isolated country and not a single country
[4:57] has formally recognized their rule. And when the Taliban, we remember, you
[5:01] know, the initial one year of its completion, we also talked about like
[5:05] we were, there were many questions like will this resurgence mark a new chapter
[5:11] in Afghanistan's prolonged and blood soaked history of conflict. Could the Taliban's rule descent
[5:18] into de sarray, you know, potentially creating a fertile ground for international jihadas
[5:24] and drug traffickers. So we have been observing either, of course, you
[5:29] have been observing it for the past two years, so that will be our
[5:32] main clucks of discussion. And the Taliban's dominion, it continues, it's it's
[5:39] domination. It continues to extend across Afghanistan, and they are with them claiming
[5:45] of having our shirt in a semblance of you know, peace and stability.
[5:48] But how much of it is true We'll try to find out, you know,
[5:53] to begin with, like looking at looking back at these two years of
[5:57] oppressive rule. Initially, you know, when I was thinking, like around
[6:00] the time when the US troops so they were pulling out of there and the
[6:05] Taliban captured Kabul, that attracted a lot of media attention. But eventually,
[6:12] you know, the news cycle died down, the focus you know, soon
[6:15] waned, we turned our attention to the Ukraine War, and we sort of
[6:21] turned a blind eye to the really horrifying stories coming out of Afghanistan. Bits
[6:27] and pieces of course, but like when something major happen, but the focus
[6:31] entirely hasn't been there, and it's as if like a collective resignation took hold,
[6:36] you know, perceiving Afghanistan as a lost cause beyond salvage. And now
[6:42] with a complete media blackout in Afghanistan, the information is already very sparse,
[6:47] very scant. So your first thought skeeter like, as you know, probably
[6:53] we know the answers, but it's kind of very reflective, and I can't
[6:57] help at us that And rightly Thekhans also wonder, and they have also often
[7:01] asked in several interviews that if European lives matter more than Afghan lives, how
[7:06] do you look back at it? I see there are a few very important
[7:11] statements that are coming from women in Afghanistan now that is telling. They have
[7:17] been restricted girls, women have been restricted from going to school colleges, the
[7:26] working women over there have been restricted from going to their workplaces. There is
[7:32] a lot of restrictions. And the Taliban have come back to power Anna on
[7:39] their own terms. This was not Taliban, a very weak Taliban that was
[7:46] given or handed power by the West, say with certain terms and conditions,
[7:50] although they were the hot talks, but the inevitability of it was the fact
[7:55] that even after agreeing to the conditions, on the fifteenth of August, the
[8:00] Taliban storm the city of Kabo, to the extent that the then sitting president,
[8:07] the National Security advisor, and the top leadership close to Ghani had to
[8:13] Afghanistan. So they came on their own terms and conditions. They were very
[8:18] clear that foreign rule, foreign influence, and foreign policies or ideas of democracy,
[8:26] so on and so forth will not apply to this new Afghanistan that is
[8:31] going to be ruled by Taliban and its leader Akunzada, and they have been
[8:35] trying to impose Islamic laws and the Shariah as much as they can, which
[8:41] is almost almost total. There are no there are no deviations over here.
[8:48] So if we look at how Afghanistan is today and where it stands economically,
[8:58] it is a very weak country. And the disarray, the problems, the
[9:05] questions, the protests continue, but they are not like they were in the
[9:11] beginning, where the massive protests saying that they want their rights and they don't
[9:16] want to Now you see suddenly that the that the that the people within the
[9:20] country are giving in. There are many within the country who have been women's
[9:26] rights activists. They stayed on Anna and now they're saying, well, the
[9:31] West was not going to come to our rescue. This is the administration we
[9:37] have to deal with. Unless Anna you can never say never to anything unless
[9:41] something really big happens and the West is forced to step in again. And
[9:46] I don't think the Taliban is going to make that mistake ever again, you
[9:50] know. So this whole nine eleven business or having their either their so and
[9:56] so forth, they have learned their lessons, and nobody right now wants to
[10:03] invest in a prolonged war two decades and counting, or the West to be
[10:09] invested in Afghanistan, although it's produced strategically very important for everybody. Everybody's invested
[10:15] in Afghanistan. They have tried to engage those countries, although nobody is recognized.
[10:20] So there are two sides. One is that the Taliban is not going
[10:24] to make the same mistakes. Right on the other side, even in a
[10:28] country like Pakistan that had recognized the Taliban regime in the past, is not
[10:33] making the same mistake of recognizing. Is this fine because nobody's accepting of what
[10:39] they're doing to women in Afghanistan, forget about everything else. COVID they had
[10:48] to monitor aid that was going to people because it seemed like they were only
[10:52] helping primarily their own and then the food aid was reaching others. So the
[10:58] West said, you know, we will wide aid provided we are allowed to
[11:01] monitor who it's reaching. So the West also and other countries who recognized like
[11:09] the Pakistan, who recognize the Taliban regime in the past. Nobody is trying
[11:13] to repeat the mistakes of the past, whether it's the Taliban or countries that
[11:20] recognize or even for that matter, the best. But at the end of
[11:22] the day, who's suffering because of the mistakes of the past, and for
[11:28] the stand that they say, stand that they took the mistakes that are being
[11:35] made by the by the West and other countries in the present times for overlooking
[11:41] or looking the other way in what is happening in Afghanistan because they think we
[11:46] need at the hours to engage the Taliban. So at the end of the
[11:48] day, it's the people. And in that also it's the it's the fifty
[11:54] percent of the population, which is the female gender that is suffering the most
[12:01] instant today. But is it like genuinely like you said, it is a
[12:05] genuinely about recognition, Because you know, I was reading this article, I
[12:11] had said that if the Taliban, I mean there was a beautician who was
[12:16] speaking, a female beautician, and she said that if the Taliban are accepted
[12:20] as the government, they might remove restrictions on women or they could impose even
[12:26] more. So, what is this uncertainty, this anxiety that is already plaguing.
[12:31] That's very interesting, Anna, you asked me that because it's a bushous
[12:35] circle. Taliban would say, first you give us recognition, then we will
[12:39] do you know, give freedom. And on the other hand, the countries
[12:46] that are invested, particularly Western countries who who provide majority of the aid,
[12:52] say that first remove the restrictions, then we will continue aid. But why,
[12:56] the question is very pertinent. Why is this important? The recognition for
[13:01] the Taliban administration is important because Afghanistan is almost eighty percent of its budget is
[13:09] dependent on international community. That they get money, largely as aid from international
[13:16] community. Now, what has the response been to these bands and restrictions?
[13:22] Foreign governments, rights groups, global bodies have not only condemned it, but
[13:26] they've also stopped donations and aid. And unless and unthw the aid that used
[13:33] to go to Afghanistan starts again. The lack of funds and exclusion of Afghanistan
[13:41] from the main main main global politics is going to cause the nation heavily.
[13:48] It is economically a very weak nation where they are only trying very hard to
[13:54] build ties and engage certain quarters. Certain quarters us to stay afloat, But
[14:01] remaining afloat is not good enough. They have you know, they have been
[14:05] trying to talk to They're having holding investment talks. There are camps. It's
[14:11] a it's a polarized world, Anna and they are engaging China, Russia.
[14:16] China is looking at the rich resources that Afghanistan has and is engaged during.
[14:20] But none of them, none of them are looking at Afghanistan to recognize the
[14:26] administration when there is still a need to crack down on the armed groups,
[14:33] there is still a need to contain and control the extremist elements within the country,
[14:41] and the fact that they are not adhering to international laws and norms of
[14:46] running a country, of having control and not allowing equality, freedom, freedom
[14:54] of speech, freedom of movement, imposing Hejab and goorkhast all over again.
[15:01] The gender segregation rules are back. So it is a very difficult period.
[15:05] The Taliban will have to navigate it very very carefully. See, they're here
[15:11] to stay. Like you said, it's not a government that is going to
[15:15] It's not a it's not a regime that is actually going to go away anytime
[15:18] soon unless they make a very huge mistake and the Western forces have to go
[15:24] in all over again, unless that is happening, which I don't see happening.
[15:30] It is it is going to be a very tall ask to see normalization
[15:35] and certain structure of government where equality prevails. But interesting that you say that,
[15:43] I mean, the Taliban is here to stay. But I remember gether
[15:48] that when the Taliban took over, it was predicted that the state would collapse.
[15:52] Uh, it would be you know, a set in a frenzy.
[15:56] But now, like you are also saying that experts and repots have also pointed
[16:00] out that such concerns about all out civil war, state collapse and utter chaos
[16:07] that did not materialize. And while this self declared Islamic state and some resistance
[16:14] groups as well, they continue to conduct attacks, but they are relatively few
[16:19] and instances of major open violence. They are also even read and now as
[16:25] compared to the previously, what is the reason like the state not collapsing,
[16:32] almost all state institutions surviving the fall of the republic likes how has it managed
[16:38] to endure over the past two years? They find this predicted collapse. So
[16:42] Anna again a very important person in question relating to how people see Afghanistan today
[16:52] and why is it that they're not being able to grapple with the fact that
[16:55] when people say the Taliban is here to stay, why is it that they're
[17:00] saying so when in the past we've seen the Taliban regime haven't been toppled.
[17:06] It's been over two decades. And in those two decades when the Taliban was
[17:11] ousted and there was a democratic structure here but he had there were Taliban in
[17:15] the Afbac region and the fight continued and they just could not win this devastating
[17:22] civil war since two thousand and one, right, But in that period what
[17:26] happened and what happened was the Taliban found space in Doha, in Kath.
[17:33] If you speak to the ones who were negotiating with America, who were negotiating
[17:40] with Cuther and the arid world, most of them are English speaking, well
[17:47] read, well educated Afghan Taliban. So now when you have when you have
[17:55] an entire lot see there is a huge disconnect between Doha and and Kabul today,
[18:02] but that is because they are now back in power and Akhunzada and his
[18:06] click want to impose the things that they promised the people, Those who were
[18:11] sitting behind curtains and closed doors, not really revealing their identity of being Taliban
[18:18] supporters, but allowing the civil war to continue, or promise this land,
[18:22] this land of Shariah, this Islamic land. Right today, they can't,
[18:27] the leadership cannot walk back because they were always in Afghanistan and they their mindset
[18:33] didn't change. But the leadership and many people within the Taliban were based out
[18:40] of Doha. Their mindset changed and that's the reason why they could reason with
[18:45] engage and negotiate, you know, with the West, and they did that.
[18:51] They did that also all rounds of talks between between the West and and
[18:56] the Taliban representing you know, the top leadership but sitting in Doha. That
[19:03] is the reason why I say that if this is a different Taliban, they
[19:07] are not going to repeat those mistakes. Now, what is happening mistakes,
[19:14] What is happening is all that is happening is within Afghanistan. You might think
[19:19] that the world and their best in America really really cares about Afghanistan, but
[19:26] they care about their own interests. Women not going to school is not impacting
[19:32] them directly. Yes, the world is impacted to see, Yes, the
[19:37] impact they are impacted by seeing that you know, this entire population, this
[19:42] beautiful population where women were really doing very well in Afghanistan now regress. But
[19:49] is that really impacting their stakes in Afghanistan? If they stop engaging the Taliban,
[19:57] they will lose stakes in Afghanistan. And who will come to replace the
[20:02] West or who it would be? China and Russia. So it is a
[20:06] war for the strategic war being played where the Taliban now have an upper hand
[20:14] and is the reason why the world is trying to reason with the Taliban.
[20:19] And the Taliban have made it very clear that after returning to power and since
[20:26] twenty twenty one when they slamished movement, so to say, one, the
[20:33] Taliban's strict rules are back and that everybody, not just people on the ground.
[20:41] The fourth pillar, the media, people in government, people who they
[20:47] have absorbed from the previous administration have to fall in life. And that is
[20:52] because again, like I say, this is now the Taliban of the past,
[20:56] where they were unput uneducated men who had whips in their hand and would
[21:03] go around the streets. Of course, we've still have we've still got visuals
[21:07] from the interiors of Afghanistan where they're whipping women, so on and so forth,
[21:11] but it is not the same in carpole they're engaging. You see the
[21:15] kind of loot that happened of all those leaders and their homes completely plundered,
[21:22] and the way they were using the drawing rooms, the kitchen, the fridge.
[21:30] The visuals were telling because those are the people who fought for the leadership,
[21:33] saying within Afghanistan today they're trying to reclaim their space however they want to
[21:38] do it. They want to sit with their sit and if they think that
[21:42] the sofars are not a part of what they want, they will throw the
[21:47] sofas out. They'll put their carlins and sit however they want to do it.
[21:53] And it has been a very difficult space for anybody to navigate. There
[21:59] are only a few countries who have embassies and missions there. Most of them
[22:03] have not gone back. The embassies and missions abroad. The Afghan embassies still
[22:08] have continue to have diplomats from the previous regime, so they're actually rebel embassies
[22:15] everywhere across the world, barring a few places where some diplomats, including in
[22:21] India where one diplomat has turned and has become pro the Paliban. So the
[22:25] Thaliban says that this is our representative in New Delhi. Of course not recognized
[22:29] by India, and India cannot do anything. He's a he's a diplomat,
[22:33] and he's in the Afghani embassy. But the ambassador still has a say and
[22:37] the ambassies still is in control. Embassies across the world are calling this many
[22:44] important, critical embassy. They're calling this a black day Tajikistan. And I'll
[22:48] let me just finished by saying this Thajikistan is a very critical and crucial embassy
[22:55] bordering Afghanistan, Tajikistan Embassy and the and they have gone. Diplomats over there
[23:00] were the Buns who supported the puncher movement of Ahmed Massoud. And when the
[23:07] Ahmed Massoud camp fled Afghanistan, they went to Tajikistan, or that's what reports
[23:12] suggest. We don't know where he is today, but that was the embassy
[23:17] that really sought to come to the rescue of the ones who are fighting the
[23:22] Taliban. Then in twenty twenty one and today the ambassador over there has put
[23:30] out a statement calling August fifteenth a black day. So it's very interesting that
[23:37] value there are countries that celebrate independence and this is a day to mark nationalism
[23:41] and celebration for the people of Afghanistan, certainly a huge population of Afghanistan,
[23:49] not all because there are many Taliban supporters, otherwise they wouldn't have been back
[23:53] in the country, but for all the others, this certainly has been marked
[23:59] as a black day in the history of Afghanistan. You know, you were
[24:03] speaking about sanctions, you were speaking about engagement. I had this question in
[24:07] mind that last you know, last I heard sanctions imposed by Western countries on
[24:15] the Taliban regime. They were meant to ensure that the feidth aid that is
[24:19] reaching Afghanistan does not fall into the hands of the Taliban. But several Afghan
[24:26] political commentators, they've said that that that's already started happening, that you know,
[24:33] the Taliban have been able to appropriate these funds through intimidation and coercion.
[24:41] You know, if there are people saying that that the sanctions that are not
[24:45] bringing bringing about the desired results, and then some Western countries have begun some
[24:52] kind of engagements with the Taliban, then what is the next step here,
[24:56] like in terms of being able to put in the of pressure on the Taliban
[25:02] so that they meant their ways and offer better governance for the people of Afghanistan.
[25:07] Do you think there's any other step that we can think of? Major
[25:15] major investments, major aid and funds that were going to Afghanistan on a regular
[25:22] basis have been frozen. They're not doing that. But unfortunately, two things
[25:26] happened during the Taliban regime. One is the COVID nineteen pandemic and secondly the
[25:34] floods that devastated many parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Right and when you see
[25:41] a humanitarian crisis, countries have to go to the rescue of the people because
[25:45] at the end of the day, for all the limited resources that were there
[25:49] in Afghanistan, it's the leadership that would not go hungry, malnourished, dead,
[25:56] it's the people who would. And you know, there are these heartbreaking
[26:00] visuals where you know, people are fighting over bread, just a van of
[26:07] bread reaching a place and the moment the shutters are up from that from from
[26:14] the of the van, you see women, men struggling just to get a
[26:19] loaf of bread. That's the that's the kind of hunger that people faced during
[26:26] the pandemic during the floods, but even today it is not a good situation.
[26:32] So and also the Taliban's hold Afghanistan in many ways than one anna is
[26:40] complete. It's not like they've allowed in their negotiations to say, okay,
[26:45] these many soldiers can stay on. No, the hold over Afghanistan is complete.
[26:53] If there is any engagement or there was any presence, it could have
[27:00] been just the Pakistanis, and no other country has had presence over there in
[27:07] terms of military and forces. The Americans had to leave. They left taking
[27:15] a lot of the people who supported the NATO and US forces, but many
[27:19] were left behind and their fate was met with death, torture. Are now
[27:27] living in a very very bad conditions because they're not the ones who have the
[27:34] jobs. They've been replaced by people who who the Taliban considered loyalists. We
[27:41] have hospitals over there where women, yes, where women are not allowed,
[27:45] so a lot of health issues. Women not being in hospitals means that women
[27:53] who have problems and in medical attention cannot go to those hospitals. So a
[28:00] lot of things have started working under the radar. And who are there?
[28:03] Who are the doctors were there that those who were stuck in the country,
[28:08] most of them would want to flee. When we were talking when this all
[28:14] this was happening, and we were engaging our friends in Afghanistan, you know,
[28:17] Harmy tried to leave and maybe just try to make it to India and
[28:21] then from here me For some time, most of us were very helpless because
[28:26] there was hardly any movement of flights taking people out. It was just those
[28:32] few last flights where you know, a lot of them got onto those flights
[28:37] and fled. I remember the visuals of the man who hung onto the wheel
[28:45] of a plane and then dropped to his death of a plane, almost half
[28:52] frozen. Because once you're you leave the atmosphere or whatever a certain certain height,
[29:00] it gets cold and there's no oxygen. They dropped to their death,
[29:04] but they were so desperate that they they thought they were just hang on to
[29:10] the wheel and maybe just manage. And that's that's how desperate they were to
[29:17] leave the country. And there are still many who are still desperate to leave
[29:21] the country, many who need medical attention and have not got medical attention.
[29:26] Things are not good over there. All that you're looking at is how to
[29:30] start working engaging the Taliban uh to an extent that the systems that it's a
[29:37] working system, that the country and the structure starts working again, and for
[29:44] that to happen, the conditions are clear that you can the restrictions that they've
[29:49] imposed have to be lifted. So again, like I go back to your
[29:53] previous question, it's a vicious circle. They say that first give us our
[29:57] aid, give us un freeze our accounts, and then you know, we
[30:03] will look at your requests. And over here the conditions are non negotiable,
[30:07] saying that first removed restrictions, then we learn freeze the accounts. Yeah,
[30:11] you know, expanding on what you said about so many people those distressing whichals
[30:18] that and who has stuck there in Afghanistan who want to leave the country but
[30:23] they can't. We have spoken so many times, Kata about how India plans
[30:30] to deal with the Afghanistan crisis diplomatically and it's geopolitical ramifications for us, But
[30:37] what gets missed out is how India is or should be helping the Afghan people
[30:44] right now. And if we go by the conversation in so many news articles
[30:49] and on Twitter now known as x, the Afghans actually feel very betrayed by
[30:56] India. And why I'm saying this is because I came across an online petition
[31:02] by change dot org org. It was started by an Afghan student who has
[31:07] described how there are over twenty five hundred Afghan students who are enrolled in Indian
[31:15] colleges and universities but who have been stuck in Afghanistan since the Taliban invasion because
[31:22] India has still not resumed issuing visas to Afghan nationals, and these students have
[31:29] lost two years of their academic life. And many of them say that they
[31:33] considered, you know, India has one country that would always stand by them,
[31:38] but because of what's happened with them, they actually feel quite betrayed.
[31:42] And they have now pretty much, you know, given up hope and have
[31:45] started taking admission in Pakistan and Iran and all these countries now. And now
[31:52] journalists also say that India can't do much here because for US to be able
[31:56] to issue visas to Afghan nationals, their embassy in New Delhi needs to be
[32:01] functioning properly. But this online petition it also points out that while India continues
[32:08] to denying visas to Afghans, the Embassy of Japan has actually gone ahead and
[32:15] announced scholarships for Afghan students who want to pursue higher education in Japan, and
[32:22] they are conducting interviews and assessments for the same in Kabul. So how do
[32:28] you see India's you know, pretty stubborn stance here, Like, these are
[32:32] students who are already studying in India and it just happened to be in Afghanistan
[32:37] around the time of the invasion because they wanted to be with their families during
[32:42] COVID And just like that, it feels that you have just taken away two
[32:45] years of their academic life. And this is just one subtext of what is
[32:50] happening. But this is something that I wanted to point out. Well,
[32:53] this is again a very sad situation, you know, and a lot of
[32:59] criticism a lot maybe that India could have done in in proactively getting people out
[33:07] of Carbon once once U flight services resumed between Carbon and Delhi. But the
[33:17] fact also is that in the initial periods what happened was that there were only
[33:24] stamped visas that were allowed and the company or the vendor that used to issue
[33:32] visas there there was a theft, and that theft led to India understanding that
[33:40] this could be all those elements pro Taliban elements also who could enter India because
[33:45] they had access to these visas. So then India canceled all stamped visas.
[33:52] And when that happened, all these kids who were supposed to be of who
[34:00] had their visas, and people not just students, people who had their visas
[34:05] and who were ready to leave and come to India seeking refuge more than anything
[34:12] else, could not leave the country. And in that unfortunately, there were
[34:16] many many Afghans who have stood by India, spoken about India Afghanistan friendship,
[34:24] were part of the administration that was ousted because that administration really took on the
[34:30] Taliban, and so it was a very unfortunate situation. And then slowly what
[34:37] happened was that the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Ministry of External Affairs,
[34:43] working together, then announced e visas. But e visas also for them to
[34:50] issue e visas has become a very cumplesome process because they don't have people on
[34:54] the ground. There is no embassy, there is there are no personnel.
[35:00] The people who who the locals who worked for Theian mission are very scared to
[35:07] help or work things are very difficult and India cannot take a chance. This
[35:13] is India's position. I think otherwise, I think that the ones who worked
[35:17] with the Indian administration should have been given visas whatever kind of exit visas from
[35:23] Afghanistan to leave immediately because they knew their allegiances and their importance and also the
[35:31] threat to their life. But that did not happen. That's that that that's
[35:37] something that you know, I critique. But India's position is that when this
[35:43] incident took place, it became very difficult for them to issue e visas.
[35:46] They did not know everybody very you know, personally, so a lot of
[35:52] the consulate and the consulate officers, that's the visa division and the empcy depended
[35:58] on local sources to can firm whether if this man is a genuine man needs
[36:04] to go to India or woman needs to go to India. Is this a
[36:07] genuine case of a student's visa or a medical visa whatever it is. They
[36:13] don't have those eyes and years on the ground, so issuing visas became difficult.
[36:16] According to them, it is because it poses security concerns. Imagine if
[36:22] you have Palaban supporters coming over here and you don't want to support them coming
[36:25] over here to travel to cultivate networks for their medical treatment. You don't want
[36:34] them to avail those facilities. But again who loses out in the end is
[36:38] the Afghan women, Afghan families, Afghan students and many of them took up
[36:46] online courses because they could not come over here, but they wanted to be
[36:51] part of the university. But they're also still waiting for zas for certificates.
[36:55] It's a very bad situation because there is no future. Then they then then
[37:00] they opt. A lot of the guns who come over here actually do not
[37:05] want to treat this as the country of refuge. They actually come here on
[37:08] temporary grounds to go to the West. So these refugees and assigned assailum seekers
[37:15] who come to India actually look at India as a temporary arrangement because they want
[37:21] to go abroad. So the ones who are investment go to the Human Rights
[37:23] Office and the Office for Refugees of the United Nations HHR, which is investant.
[37:31] They hard pitch tents over there, wait protests. There are massive protests
[37:37] saying that you know, take us from here, there's nothing over here.
[37:42] Imagine they were all wealthy well off people. They left everything they had in
[37:45] Afghanistan and came to India. But India does not have provision to provide money
[37:52] funds per month, you know, those maintenance for the people. These refugees
[38:00] unlike many other European countries, of the Western countries, and so they prefer
[38:06] leaving India and going somewhere else, which is also very sad because because they
[38:13] have nothing to look forward to if they come to India. But they all
[38:15] want to save their lives and that's where they leave and they come over here.
[38:20] Many Afghans have families over here based out of India, have businesses here.
[38:24] For them, it's okay, but for the others, their investments we
[38:28] have. We have friends then who keep talking about how having so many refugees,
[38:32] asylum seekers not just from Afghanistan but from Africa as well, sitting outside
[38:37] pitching tents becomes a serious issue for them. We're not saying that they are
[38:42] a threat, but imagine if you have outsiders sitting sitting in your colony,
[38:47] you cannot send your children out. It becomes very difficult. Movement becomes difficult.
[38:53] But that's a site, I mean, that's not a problem for compared
[38:58] to what the people over there are offering. So it is a very very
[39:01] difficult situation for them. They prefer that they rather go somewhere else. But
[39:06] for these people, imagine, I've met people in Poland, in Germany of
[39:13] Ghans over there, Afghans in India. They were all studying their very well
[39:17] educated halfway through their education, students of medicine, some who've done their masters
[39:23] now living on government role in the West, and over here the jobless and
[39:29] they have nothing to look forward to. So it is a very very sad
[39:32] situation, not just for people. You know, a lot of the conversation
[39:36] is about what's happening in Afghanistan. If you broad based, it has to
[39:40] do with what is happening to they Afghans, not just within Afghanistan, but
[39:45] across the world. Yes, precisely. I think I remember talking about this
[39:52] in the previous episode as well, when we were speaking about Taliban's one year
[39:57] rule and you spoke about education and there's a there's the fact that the Taliban
[40:02] have such a regressive mindset and they feared educated women. I remember there was
[40:09] this answer given by somebody I don't remember the person's name, but it said
[40:15] that why women's rights are sometimes seen by outsiders as a secondary issue in Afghanistan,
[40:22] the reality is that they have been integral to the conflict that has plagued
[40:28] the country for decades. Like it explained that even though a certain section of
[40:31] the Taliban beliefs that you know, they should be educated, it's the fact
[40:36] that they want to keep kindling to the to the ultra conservative groups who support
[40:42] the Taliban, and if they go against their conservative beliefs, this might push
[40:47] their supporters towards other groups like the Islamic State group, which could eventually,
[40:52] you know, lead to the Taliban losing their hold on power. So that
[40:59] I think has quite an explanation. Absolutely, you know, the control and
[41:04] how they control Afghanistan, what according to them, means control and total control
[41:10] has to do with what they impose on the women of Afghanistan too, so
[41:15] in many ways, and now what they're doing is imposing exactly what they've promised,
[41:22] and they don't see a differentiation. They don't make their distinction. Their
[41:28] view and their version of Islam is not what is practiced across the world,
[41:32] and their version really is where there and that's what they have also shown.
[41:39] The people who followed them all through the civil war, that we will bring
[41:45] to you the world that you want, where women will be under you and
[41:51] they will have to listen to everything you say. So that control within one's
[41:54] home, to one's society, to the community, and then actually to how
[42:00] the country runs is what they think is important to emphasize that they are actually
[42:12] in control. Yeah, precisely, And just to you know, while we
[42:16] end this discussion, you know J twenty, like you started the discussion also
[42:22] saying that there's a lot to prepare for G twenty the summit. But I
[42:29] was wondering that the G twenty countries, they are deliberating on Russia, Crean
[42:32] war, I mean so much now, but we don't hear them talking much
[42:37] about what's happening in Afghanistan. So should we even expect them to talk about
[42:43] it? Because if we are to go by the new cycle, it seems
[42:46] no one in the J twenty countries this year is so far talked about you
[42:51] know, what is happening in the country. So how do you think this
[42:55] is going to pan out? See, the fact is that the Shanghai Cooperation
[43:01] Organization and the Group of twenty, both of which were being led by India.
[43:07] This year the SEO concluded and the SEO has a major session in Afghanistan.
[43:14] It has been the case since since we're SEO started and since the inception
[43:22] of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Afghanistan has been a crucial and critical piece of
[43:28] those conversations. And there is a separate session in Afghanistan which took place even
[43:32] last year. This year it was a virtual summit and there were only four
[43:35] sessions. Certainly the issue of Afghanistan was addressed. It was a part of
[43:39] the Joint community as well for the G twenty. Yes, in a if
[43:45] you if you look at the larger picture, Yes, the world now is
[43:47] focused on the Russia Ukraine war more than the situation in Afghanistan, and it
[43:52] did not help the Afghan's cause against the Taliban because most of them, most
[44:00] of the West was focused so focused on defeating Russia in the war against Ukraine.
[44:07] So it did take a toll on the Akhns because they've felt you know,
[44:12] everybody talks about officially isolating the Taliban, but the real people who are
[44:16] actually isolated on the global stage worthy of Ghns because their voice has been unheard,
[44:22] they have not been recognized and in all this when we talk about aid,
[44:29] and you know, the Taliban's view on recognition or is a sense of
[44:35] entitle moment that this is not something to be negotiated. We are now in
[44:38] control, you recognize us. Period. And for the West, where you
[44:45] have anywhere polarized world, China and Russia and neighboring Pakistan, despite all the
[44:51] border war that they're having with Afghanistan, are engaging the Taliban. And here
[44:55] you have the rest of the world so focused on Russia Ukraine War that they
[45:00] are actually not even coming out and condemning the Taliban in the manner in which
[45:06] they have been coming out and condemning Russia on the Russia Ukraine War. There
[45:08] might be no comparison Anna, but there certainly is a problem when it comes
[45:15] to who has lost the most because of the Russia Ukraine War. It's not
[45:20] about food crisis or energy security crisis. The Europeans would have gone through a
[45:28] very very harsh winter had they not taken gas, but they ended up taking
[45:32] gas from Russia. Anyway, they might have brought it down for not now.
[45:37] But then you know, nobody was thinking that in Afghanistan, people who
[45:40] are actually dying of cold, hunger, kids are malnutrition. Nobody is having
[45:47] that conversation, and even if they're having it, it's almost like because it's
[45:52] a part of the conversation they must have and Afghanistan has to be included in
[45:58] the Joint Community or the draft or the final outcome document. And that's right.
[46:04] But in terms of real deliverables, look at the announcements that Biden has
[46:08] made for Ukraine. But since twenty twenty one after with the withdrawal, a
[46:14] withdrawal that Trump had announced, and Biden could have could have not gone ahead
[46:21] with it, but he did go ahead with it because it would have been
[46:23] it would have been a political disaster for him. Nobody's in America wants this
[46:29] war or wants their children to be serving in these parts of the world where
[46:34] they have body bags coming back home every now and again. And in all
[46:38] this, while they do discuss Afghanistan, there isn't a push where we are
[46:45] seeing a real change on the ground, and we might not see that change
[46:50] unless and until the international community comes together and says, well, this is
[46:53] an absolute non negotiable over there. Also, it's very bad because you know,
[47:00] Afghans and the Taliban are actually using the plight of their own people to
[47:04] their advantage. They're saying, well, if you don't do as we say,
[47:07] they will go hungry, they will die. And so the international community
[47:13] gives in a little every time in sense eid No, Yeah, I think
[47:15] you correctly pointed out and you know you said border disputes and it's not it's
[47:22] not a question gata. But it's just like last thought that while I was
[47:25] reading up. You know, what makes the situation worse is that Taliban is
[47:30] now an isolated country, but it's neighbors also beat Pakistan or Iran. The
[47:37] challenge, this tripertite. You know, the challenge between these three countries is
[47:43] actually very concerning because it's i mean, their relationship is trained by moder disputes,
[47:47] sectarian violence, terrorism, proxy conflicts. You know, there's water war
[47:53] with Iran. With Pakistan, of course the terrorism thing is very very concerning
[48:00] in fact for what war with Iran. Also, the Taliban leadership has said
[48:05] that, you know, we want resolution through diplomatic challenge channels. It just
[48:10] you know, makes it more like complex and how I don't know how it's
[48:15] going to pan out. The neighbors also have like such porous boundaries. That
[48:21] just makes everything very complicated and we don't know how it's going to pan out
[48:25] in if the Taliban, and like you said, the Taliban is here to
[48:30] stay. Yeah, they're here to stay, but never say never, because
[48:32] they're here to stay till the next big mistake. I keep saying that it
[48:37] all depends on how wisely they're going to move and navigate the geopolitical space.
[48:43] Having said that, you know, in twenty twenty one when Pabo fell,
[48:47] there was there were only certain officials who were seen smiling year to year with
[48:53] the Taliban and negotiating terms and telling the Taliban how to go about things.
[48:59] It was the Isi chief of Pakistan and for them it seemed like it was
[49:05] a victory for them, and they will have full influence in sway over Afghanistan.
[49:10] But they have Ghans have never been ruled or dominated by anyone. They
[49:15] are not the kinds. Look at how they pushed back on the Soviets.
[49:20] They are not the kinds who are going to pay heed and listen to And
[49:24] that friction now is visible with Pakistan. The border war has begun and while
[49:32] they while the Pakistanis are saying and there have been quite a few attacks within
[49:37] Pakistan, where Pakistan says that these ttp militants and terrorists are being harbored by
[49:45] Afghanistan. Afghanistan is making it very clear that they're not going to take action
[49:50] against their people or even people they know, and they have while they've denied
[49:55] that they are harboring ttpeoper say it's a very bad situation for them, and
[50:00] they're questioning the border itself and there are people sitting at the border. It
[50:06] was a very terrible sight and seen for a very long time. There is
[50:09] one of the one of the biggest, a huge refugee camps are actually at
[50:15] the Pakistan Afghanistan border where they Afghans were fleeing and Pakistan could no longer control
[50:22] what was happening and the in exodus of Afghans into Pakistan. So it was
[50:29] it has become a very very difficult scene for Iran, again, a country
[50:34] that is important and crucial in the region and has has had not a very
[50:43] smooth relationship with Afghanistan per se. We're talking about Shias and Sunnis over here,
[50:49] so you know, there are their own problems there. But Iran Afghanistan,
[50:54] for India in the past were critical to not have to depend on Pakistan
[51:01] to be able to reach our access Afghanistan. India was engaging Iran and invested
[51:09] heavily in the Chabahar Pot, which would have become functional to carry food supplies
[51:15] for important export of the lovely fruits that come from Afghanistan, dry fruits that
[51:23] come from Afghanistan, and also then to be able to send rice, wheat,
[51:27] et cetera to Afghanistan, and Chabahar would have become a massive, massive
[51:31] port for important export and connectivity between and among India, Iran and Afghanistan.
[51:38] Today, things don't look and have not kicked off as plan because nobody thought
[51:44] that America is going to withdraw their troops the manner in which they did,
[51:49] that native forces would be out of Afghanistan, the manner and the manner in
[51:52] which they left, and the entire region is in a hambles because Afghanistan is
[52:01] critical to stability of the region and always has been. Yeah, while you
[52:07] know there are problems between Pakistan and Afghanistan, Pakistan has to focus on both
[52:12] sides of its border. Now it no longer is in control of the Abac
[52:15] region and in the hoos with the terrorists like it used to be in the
[52:20] past to earn out of America. Now they are suffering at the hands of
[52:24] those who are being harbored on the other side. So the policy of sponsoring
[52:34] terrorism and making that a state policy has come a full circle for Pakistan in
[52:38] many ways and one but doesn't help anybody's pause because at the end of the
[52:44] day, like I said, in all this and all the geopolitics, the
[52:47] negotiations, the talks, whether aid will be given or not, whether the
[52:52] administrator, the regime will be recognized or not, the ones who will end
[52:55] up suffering and suffering for the longest would be the pople of Afghanistan. And
[53:00] when I say Afghans, it's not just people in Afghanistan who are the worst
[53:06] sufferers Anna, but also those who've had to flee their homes and are living
[53:10] as refugees across the world. I say that every time they have a conversation
[53:15] and the refugees that nobody wants to be a refugee. They might want to
[53:21] go and live abroad, become anything abroad, but nobody lives to become a
[53:27] refugee. So all those countries, even sometimes our country, when we say,
[53:31] oh, the Rohans, they're coming, this influx you know, when
[53:35] there are guns on the other side shooting you and you're fleeing, You're just
[53:40] fleeing and for your life. That's the survival instinct of every human being.
[53:45] But nobody really wants to be a refugee if you can live a respectable,
[53:50] dignified life in your own motherland. Yeah, I think I think that really
[53:55] sums up for this episode, this thought about refugees supplied of refugees, which
[54:04] I think our listeners would be able to, you know, probably understand in
[54:08] depth because Gaita has been speaking a lot in our various episodes, because it
[54:14] keeps echoing in all of the topics that we delve into. So you know,
[54:19] this is at a time we're looking at Taliban, we are looking at
[54:22] Afghanistan, you know, where when there's no law, there's no hope for
[54:27] justice. You know, one last thought that you know this country, there's
[54:31] no hope for justice. There's no quote, there's no due process, there's
[54:36] no accountability, there's no effective you know, command and control over the Taliban
[54:42] militias. There's something called International Criminal Court, you know, which has like
[54:49] which lists war crimes attributed to the Taliban, that encompasses attacks and civilians,
[54:54] conscription of children, you know, the treacherous common about tactics. So this
[55:01] is kind of with our experts have also time and against stated that the ICC
[55:06] is kind of viewed as a beacon of hope when law, justice and accountability
[55:12] they appear absent in such a state. You think that could be, I
[55:19] mean that that is true, that ICC can be like a significant factor in
[55:23] Afghanistan's predicament. And this is how we conclude. So Anna, there are
[55:28] a few things over here. One is the fact that the SEC has its
[55:31] own limitations in its international score, and that comes with the fact that the
[55:38] ICC initiates proceedings only if the state in question is unwilling or unable genuinely to
[55:46] carry out the prosecution or investigation. This is Understatute Article seventy. This means
[55:52] that if a national legal entity is carrying out such proceedings, the ICC may
[55:59] not act unless it can prove that the proceedings are not being carried out in
[56:02] good faith. Now what does this mean. This means that if the current
[56:07] government in question or the regime in question is not conducting willingly and genuinely investigations,
[56:16] only then can the ICC take note and investigate. They do have the
[56:22] right to. But what has become a problem over here and what is an
[56:28] absolute uncharted territory for the international community, is the fact that ICC is asking
[56:36] because nobody has recognized the Taliban led government and it is still labeled as a
[56:40] terrorist organization under the US law. So there is a lot of questions over
[56:45] here. There are questions that are being raised. ICC has sought details from
[56:51] the United Nations to specify and clarify whether if they can assert juris diction and
[57:00] who do they assert this jurisdiction or over when there is no clarity of who's
[57:07] in control, because they have to first identify who's in control that the world
[57:12] recognizes and then hold that government responsible. Now on the situation in Afghanistan,
[57:20] the ICC has been active not just with regards to this Staliban regime. They've
[57:24] been investigating matters since through the civil war against the forces, the native forces,
[57:32] the American forces, the then administration, on all the injustices that have
[57:39] an allegations of injustice or via human rights violations that have been leveled against them.
[57:45] But over here, they're now asking who actually is in control for them
[57:50] to go ahead and investigate the matter. The other view from some of the
[57:57] experts is that that they have to keep in mind the purpose of the International
[58:01] Criminal Court, and that is to ensure that the most laneous criminal acts do
[58:05] not go on punished. So the procedural issues should not prevent the port from
[58:09] prosecuting those who have committed crimes against humanity. And in this case, these
[58:15] rights activists are taking or questioning the Paliban. Now while the Taliban you know,
[58:22] have not been recognized, they have that weird so to say, advantage
[58:28] because the United Nations will have to name legitimate representatives and unless an until that
[58:36] happens there they cannot be expected to have the capacity then to conduct credible investigation
[58:42] against home. And if at all, the United Nations says, well,
[58:46] the Taliban is in control, so they are the ones who need to willingly
[58:51] show intent in investigating matters or violations. They themselves are the violators. Anna
[58:58] i CC will have to investigate them showing unwillingness. But the Taliban then can
[59:02] take the advantage of delaying a resumption of investigations or investigations, saying that well,
[59:09] let us first do it, let us first investigate the matter. So
[59:14] we'll have to wait and see how this really pans out. But it doesn't
[59:17] seem like it doesn't seem like things are going the way of the international community
[59:24] at present, because they have been trying to. And once you talk about
[59:29] investigations, the Taliban will talk about the ICEC investigations of the past as well
[59:34] the US troops intelligence operators who have been accused of war crimes, and they
[59:39] date back to two thousand since since the invasions onwards. And now we're looking
[59:46] at at the Taliban having returned. So yes, the ICEC might take cognizance
[59:52] of what's happening and can lead an investigation. But should there be a certain
[1:00:00] amount of responsibility being pinned on the Taliban because they're now in control of the
[1:00:07] administration and countries as sovereign nations, right then they will have the right to
[1:00:13] say and let us show the will and the intent. According to legal perspective,
[1:00:17] the office of the Prosecutor ANNA has the discretion over how to proceed in
[1:00:22] the interest of justice, including narrowing down on the focus of the most heinous
[1:00:29] crime, so on and so forth. But the United States of America is
[1:00:32] not a party to the ICC, and they've argued vehemently that its nationals are
[1:00:37] not bound by its jurisdiction. And this has to do with the forces when
[1:00:43] they were being questioned on the kind of violations and the and the the horrendous
[1:00:49] crimes that were committed when they were in control or by the forces, and
[1:00:53] it's it's proven, there are facts, there are reports to prove what was
[1:00:59] done to the by by the by the forces. Under the administration of Trump,
[1:01:05] Washington had exerted a lot of pressure to drop the in fiery against its
[1:01:08] military by imposing sanctions. So the US always ends up using sanctions to stop
[1:01:15] anything that would defame them, and these same arguments can be used by the
[1:01:22] current Taliban regime as well. So yes, while the ICC has the wherewithal
[1:01:30] and the tools to investigate the matters, but in terms of pushing them into
[1:01:37] changing what they're doing and changing the policies would mean some action, and no
[1:01:44] country at this point in time, I think it's willing to invest themselves in
[1:01:49] fighting the Taliban all over again. Very interesting, Guita, it was.
[1:01:54] I think we'll put an end to the episode and a lot of clarifications on
[1:02:00] how Taliban has been faring and what are the developments, why Taliban is here
[1:02:05] to stay, and how the international community, you know, the sanctions and
[1:02:09] everything play their parts here and the ICC information a lot of clarity, so
[1:02:15] thank you for that. I hope listeners also had some and if you did,
[1:02:20] let us know how the episode was. The number is eight five,
[1:02:23] double eight nine, double six, double line six and the email ideas spots
[1:02:28] at the rate in there today dot com, so let us know. And
[1:02:30] Guita, thank you so much, like real, thank you, enriching,
[1:02:35] thank you, and thank you to our listener. Thank you, please thank
[1:02:37] tuning in and please continue to send your feedback. Like Anna said, it's
[1:02:44] always a pleasure. Happy Independence Day to all of you. But I hope
[1:02:49] that the world rises up to the occasion of helping the Afghans, not just
[1:02:54] in Afghanistan but across the world, because that certainly is the need of the
[1:02:59] hour. This is indeed, uh really troubling times for people of Afghanistan.
[1:03:05] Thanks for the message very loud and clear. Thanks pet and I'll see you
[1:03:10] soon against week. Bye bye,

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