# India-Canada Row: With US, Five Eyes Providing Intelligence To Trudeau, Was India's Reaction Imprudent?| Geeta's World, Ep 62

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 26 Sep 2023, 47 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/56943523/26_sep_23_gw_ep_62_mix_26_sept_128.mp3

Canada's prime minister Justin Trudeau is yet to release any specific evidence tying India to the killing, which if proven would constitute a violation of “Canadian sovereignty” and “international rule of law”. How probable will this evidence then be, which in a way will also have Canada implicated in this violation? An unnamed ally in the Five Eyes intelligence alliance, the United States, allegedly provided intelligence leading to allegations against India. So if the US is indeed involved, how will it affect India-US relations? Our host Anna Priyadarshini and foreign affairs editor at India Today, TV Today Network Geeta Mohan discuss in this episode of Geeta's World. Listen in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Kapil Dev Singh

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. Justin Trudeau is yet to release any specific evidence
[0:08] tying India to seek separatist nature's killing. But the evidence, if proven,
[0:12] would constitute a violation of Canadian sovereignty and international rule of law. So then
[0:18] how probable will this evidence be which in a way will also have Canada implicated
[0:23] in this violation? No, but these are again two different aspects. Or
[0:27] does it implicate Canada on surveillance? But it cannot be tabled? And an
[0:32] unnamed ally in the Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance, the United States allegedly provided intelligence
[0:38] leading to these allegations against India. So if the US is indeed involved,
[0:43] will it affect India US relations? Should there be evidence which they themselves gathered?
[0:49] By the way, Canada only did the leg job of determining who what
[0:53] when, but the initial intel came from US? Should that be We'll have
[0:57] to wait and see whether if Biden will actually come to India for the Republic
[1:00] Day or will it become an annual event of quad. Hello, I'm anna
[1:06] PRODESSIONI with India to Day TV's Foreign affairs editor Geta Mohan, where with Geta's
[1:11] astute and incisive crasp of world affairs. We delve into all that is urgent
[1:17] and pressing in world politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape
[1:23] India's global ambitions of being a Wishwa guru. Let's untravel Geta's world. So
[1:33] hello and welcome. This is the sixty second episode. And I think from
[1:38] my tone you could understand, you could decipher that I'm still awaiting, you
[1:44] know, the person that represents symbolically Guita's world to give me like some treat.
[1:51] You know it will happen, Nana, at least get you have such
[1:55] a lab from your holiday. Oh wow. See this is an announcing to
[2:00] the world that she will not be in the studio next week. This is
[2:05] a fit for tat that we are engaging in when somebody else in the diplomatic
[2:10] world is sort of engaging in a back issue. Yes, yes, so
[2:16] I remember last week also when we were recording this happened. And for the
[2:21] past one week, my goodness, this has been like the hot topic.
[2:27] You know, all sorts of I don't know, like permutations and combinations have
[2:31] been made by made on social media or mainstream media. It's just there.
[2:37] So just giving a brief, it's about Canada, of course, who couldn't
[2:42] decipher it's Canada and India's relations that have taken a dip. And it happened
[2:47] just last week when we were recording our previous episode, you know, on
[2:53] the eve of a special session of in the new INTI in Parliament, Justin
[2:57] Trudeau made a series of teams that alleged the involvement of Indian governmentations in the
[3:02] killing of Hardief signature was a Sikh separatist leader and Canadian citizen residing in Canada.
[3:10] And the aftermath of these allegations that triggered a diplomatic back and forth,
[3:15] resulting in both countries expelling senior diplomats and Trudeau has but he has asserted that
[3:22] there are credible allegations linking the Indian government to his assassination. But the Indian
[3:30] Foreign Ministry has dismissed these claims as absurd and motivated. And now, in
[3:37] another move, India has also suspended visa services for Canadian nationals. So in
[3:43] this sin our discussion this week will focus on analyzing the implications for Canada's relationship
[3:49] with India, although the Khalistan movement remains, you know, sort of dominant
[3:53] within India, with its elements predominantly sort of existing outside the country. But
[4:00] this recent rule has undeniably sparked tensions. So we'll explore to repercussions, you
[4:06] know, guitar like to begin with, I remember we have another podcast that
[4:11] we do with Abhishekbla, and I remember they were also sort of discussing this
[4:16] in detail with defense and intelligence securities kind of perspective. But then when they
[4:23] were discussing like Trudeau's actions, he and many observers like him, he said
[4:29] that it was like a form of one upmanship, you know, suggesting that
[4:32] he shouldn't have raised this issue at all, Trudeau and he himself Trudeau in
[4:39] fact, he stated that he raised this issue with Prime Minister Moody personally in
[4:44] a side along the sidelines of the summit during the g twenty presidency. And
[4:48] the fact that Nija was killed in June raises questions about why Trudeau is addressing
[4:56] this now and not earlier when it actually happened. The killing happened, but
[5:01] you know, I thought about it, like what was kind of like bothering
[5:04] me is that India's diplomatic influence was quite evident during the g twenty presidency.
[5:11] So in a time when India's global influences steadily, you know, growing in
[5:15] world politics, why would Trudeau choose to strain its ties by you know,
[5:21] being in India's bad books? Like, considering he is well aware of India's
[5:26] cloud diplomatic clout and the potential consequences of straining ties with India, it seems
[5:31] like he did not have think this through. Like's not that knife to not
[5:36] think this true. So Anna, when the killing happened, after which,
[5:44] yes, it took a while and there were investigations that were launched. There's
[5:51] a probe that's underway. But the fact of the matter is that whether instead
[5:57] of questioning the timing, question the intent over here and the intent over here,
[6:04] Trudeau came out and spoke in parliament. You're supposed to tell the truth
[6:09] in parliament or else you'll be held accountable. Whether it's true or not will
[6:14] be will be known to us. And some time to come evidence has not
[6:18] been shared, or we certainly don't know what that evidence entails. Still some
[6:27] time ago, Trudeau said possible links to Indian intelligence agencies, and everybody else
[6:33] kept saying allegations of links with Indian intelligence on the twenty fourth of September.
[6:42] Is the first time that you heard the Canadian Defense minister say credible evidence?
[6:46] Yeah, so what is that evidence? Is something we'll have to wait and
[6:49] see. Is it going to hit ties between India and Canada. Canada and
[6:57] India have seen deterioration in ties ever since. It's been a couple of years,
[7:01] ever since the farm laws and a little before that. Trudeau visited India
[7:09] the first time around, it was quite i think, with a lot of
[7:13] pomp and circumstance, but ended up with a lot of negative publicity about twenty
[7:19] eight yes, when he visited the Golden Temple. Yes, so it's been
[7:25] a couple of years since the farm laws. Furthermore, but if you go
[7:30] back to when he visited last time around, it was with a lot of
[7:34] pomp and circumstance. He had tried to reach out to India. He did
[7:39] everything that he could to bring in the Punjabi culture with the clothes and everything,
[7:43] and ended up getting a lot of negative publicity saying that you know,
[7:47] it did not help. In fact, if anything, he made a fool
[7:51] of himself or complete completely lost the plot because he came and there was some
[8:00] elements who are Khalistani sympathizers. Even then they ended up being part of the
[8:05] entourage and a part of most of the major dinners and banquets on and so
[8:11] forth. So it was a major cause for embarrassment. But that's where you
[8:16] see the Canadian politics and how certain elements influence Canada's ruling dispensation. Having NDP
[8:28] as an alliance partner with leader jack Meet Singh, who actually is a Khalistan
[8:33] sympathizer, does not help matters. So things were already in towards the downturn.
[8:41] Since ever since there were reports of them not condoning. And then since
[8:46] then we've seen a lot of Khalistani elements creating problems India, sending dossiers after
[8:52] dossiers not being listened to or her being being paid attention to, and that
[9:01] continued. But this is a little different from that. What has happened over
[9:05] here in nature killing is that width nature killing is that a man A lot
[9:13] of them likened him to Osama bin Ladin, which is not the case.
[9:15] He is a Khalistani terrorist I wanted man in India, but he's not one
[9:20] who was underground being supported by Canada, like Osama was a known terrorist,
[9:28] being funded, involved in or the mastermind of nine to eleven attacks and being
[9:35] being kept in a safe space by Pakistan. So the exposing of Pakistan and
[9:43] how and it was an Abata bath, you know, So the exposing of
[9:48] how Pakistan is in cahoots with terrorists and terrorist elements is a different story here.
[9:54] This is a man who was out in the open, was part of
[9:56] the Gurudwara Prabhanda Committee and a and a major leader in his own community to
[10:05] us a Khalistani terrorist. Nonetheless, he's been involved in activities that are not
[10:11] just anti India but also are considered terrorist acts acts of terrorism. So India
[10:18] kept sending dorsays. Now, what is the problem over here is that they're
[10:22] saying it's a gang war between two two gangs in which nature skilled whatever the
[10:30] case is over there. If Canada is saying and it's a serious allegation,
[10:35] If Canada is saying that they have credible links so on and so forth,
[10:41] where if they say in credible links now to credible evidence, it is something
[10:46] to be looked into seriously. That was the first step when we started thinking
[10:50] that maybe Canada has jumped the gun, and Trudeau has jumped the gun.
[10:54] He's not sharing intelligence, he's not telling us the real picture, giving us
[10:58] the real picture, and it in it in all probability is just vote bank
[11:05] politics. But then came a statement from the US ambassador to Canada very clearly
[11:13] spelling out that it's the Five Eyes Alliance that shared the first intel and telling
[11:24] them that there are some links to India. Further on, there was another
[11:28] statement that came saying that it's within the Five Eyes. Five Eyes Alliance is
[11:33] an agreement between five countries US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
[11:39] They share intelligence in real time basis. Their intelligence sharing is almost as
[11:46] secure a setup where they know there's going to be no breach within and amongst
[11:52] themselves. Yeah. So then came the news that amongst the five Eyes,
[11:58] you know, Canada had said the that a major five e ally shared the
[12:03] first intel. Then it turned out to be America. America. America is
[12:07] not saying anything about it, but if the intelligence, so if Trudeau himself
[12:13] did not take a standard just come out and say something. But the first
[12:16] intel came from some other countries. It has considered a partner of India.
[12:22] Then the story changes, but the story changes fasclated of course. Still it's
[12:28] not speculative. It is a claim. It is a claim. Yet nobody's
[12:33] speculating away. I'm not speculating that maybe America. No, it's a claim
[12:39] by Canada that there is intelligence, possible links. Whatever you want to you
[12:43] know, you can quote and quote and say whatever whatever they're trying to say.
[12:48] But the source of in first information, first intel came from the United
[12:52] States of America. That changes the entire dynamics. Now it no longer is
[12:58] a Canada versus India. It's a five eyes versus India. It's America Canada
[13:03] versus India. And which is why you see such important strong statements coming from
[13:09] US, to the extent that Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisors said,
[13:13] or John Kirby, if I'm not mistaken, one of the two actually came
[13:18] out and said that there can be no exemption for any country that has breached
[13:22] sovereignty. So for them, their sovereignty and unity is more important than anything
[13:31] else. Of course, America is not going to let go of the India
[13:35] partnership. We are very important today, but it all depends on see,
[13:39] there's what is speculation. Speculation is what everybody else is doing, or Canada
[13:43] this or India this, you know, both sides. All that is in
[13:46] the realm of speculation. Right now, we should be sensible and wait for
[13:52] the details on the evidence that they will be putting out to come out to
[13:58] really decide for ourselves whether if they have enough information to have even named India
[14:03] or they should have done it. The bigger question and conversation should be whether
[14:07] Trudeau should have just tried to handle it through back channels quietly with India.
[14:13] Yeah, but then they say that he came to India and he did raise
[14:16] it. Prime Mister Moody said, there is no such thing. So for
[14:20] now India has rejected all those claims outrightly, calling them motivated, absurd and
[14:26] absurd. But we'll have to wait and see what that evidence entails. Yeah,
[14:33] you know that, I mean a lot many information was like you actually
[14:39] encapsulated a lot many but like you know, the fact about evidence, right,
[14:45] that's I think that's that's like the key factor over you. But you
[14:48] know, I was reading through and there was this one aspect as well,
[14:54] considering the fact that Canadian Canadian government sources. You know. They were quoted
[15:00] by Canada's public television CBC as saying that there was both a signal intelligence and
[15:07] human intelligence inputs that included communications between diplomats within the Indian High Commission pointing to
[15:16] the Niger killing. But that report also mentions that if so, if this
[15:20] is there, this would also mean that Canadian security agencies had surveillance operations targeting
[15:28] the Indian mission, which is a violation of diplomatic protocol. Therefore it cannot
[15:33] be tabled. That is what they had not been tabled. It will implicate
[15:41] Canada itself then how No, But then there are two These are again two
[15:45] different aspects. What does it implicate Canada on okay, surveillance? Okay,
[15:50] this reminds me of the two different aspects. So India can take on Canada
[15:54] more than Canada America on surveillance. That how are you spying, listening and
[16:02] snooping on the missions that should that is considered a territorial space of the guest
[16:10] country. So if the Canadian High Commission in India is land of Canada,
[16:15] if you are in that High Commission in the premises, Canadian rules apply to
[16:21] you. So it's considered. If the territory that land is bought by the
[16:27] Indian administration where the Indian High Commission is, then that is considered Indian territory.
[16:33] So there is a serious violation, but that is different from did they
[16:37] actually have so Internally, the conversations will take place, there will be evidence
[16:44] that will be shared. It can never be tabled in parliament. So when
[16:47] parliamentarians are saying, you know, the opposition has a handle on this against
[16:52] Trudeau, they keep saying, show the intelligence, show the evidence, but
[16:56] it cannot be tabled for the very same reason you just spelt out. There
[17:00] was surveillanceomat on diplomats and diplomatic mission, Yes, and they will have to
[17:07] explain what they were doing. There was a major case about this with regards
[17:11] to US snooping exactly that who's diplomats, yes, and WikiLeaks cables through and
[17:18] through. Yeah, so it is a serious violation. But these are two
[17:22] separate matters. Again, if somebody says, oh, well, you know,
[17:26] and which is what is happening already, Oh well, you know you're
[17:30] blaming India for links, but what about the survey? They are not connected.
[17:34] Though, two wrongs don't make a right so while this is a problem,
[17:40] surveillance is a problem. This is also a problem. But look,
[17:44] the Americans have already warned FBI has wonned the sick community now they call it
[17:48] the Sikh community, because they don't know within that Sik community who's a Khalistani
[17:52] sympathizer, who's an active Khalistani terrorist for India, and who's a non sympathizer.
[17:59] So they have actually warned the c community there that there are threats to
[18:03] your life and so please be vigilant. This after the nature killing. So
[18:08] America is actually looking at it very very closely. Look at what is happening
[18:12] with the lawmakers over there. A lawmaker who's part of the India of the
[18:17] C Caucus has sought details on this. Jim cost another congressman, has asked
[18:25] for he's a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, has asked for a briefing
[18:29] that if you've done this, you give us and within the Foreign Affairs Committee
[18:33] in US, whatever it is, they have to relate on the table saying
[18:36] that this is what we did, this is the intelligence. Some things are
[18:38] closed or some are open, whatever it is. Congressmen have a right too.
[18:44] So in all probably we will get to hear what that evidence and intelligence
[18:48] is just for now, it doesn't seem like it's going to be in public
[18:52] domain, for they will just cite national security reasons and so on and so
[18:57] forth. Yea, And like you were mentioning the Wiki Leagues case, you
[19:03] know, there was an article in The Hindu that highlighted the five allies you
[19:11] know, response to all this, and it was actually interesting to note that
[19:15] none of them have explicitly like bagged Canada's claims, you know, based on
[19:21] the evidence that he says that he has and will be producing. But there's
[19:26] another side to it that you know. This has raised questions about a potential
[19:30] double standard which I think Western countries often face when you know, compared to
[19:36] the swift and coordinated response in the Ska Parl case in the UK, where
[19:42] the British government accused Russian agents of poisoning a former Russian operative and his daughter,
[19:49] this is the case, and in that case, each of the five
[19:53] wise countries they expelled several Russian diplomats from their capitals. The contrast and action
[20:00] now here suggests like a reluctance to upset New Delhi because you know, as
[20:03] they deepen their strategic partnership within debate US this relation that we know of,
[20:11] So does it mean that you know, there's a there's there's definitely like a
[20:14] hypocrisy, like a double standard to it that. Yes, OK, in
[20:18] that particular case, we reacted by expelling all our diplomas. But here we
[20:22] can't be like back in Canada's US in the UK, oh you mean UK?
[20:26] Ok? Yeah? Yeah. So this also was like, you know,
[20:30] I was wondering that do you think the fact that no allies, even
[20:34] the US, for several reasons its own reasons, did not come for Canada's
[20:40] help exposes kind of like Canada's weakness in like the geopolitical realm, the geopolitical
[20:48] reality that that Canada is actually kind of a soft power here you know that
[20:53] no, none of its allies will actually come to help. And in fact,
[20:57] this is what the majority of the reading in Indian media is. Yeah,
[21:02] but it's contrary to what actually is the case. Annah. There was
[21:07] a question and there was an entire report on how Canada has been has been
[21:12] given up by the United States of America, and Jake Sullivan, the National
[21:17] Security Advisor, came out and said, make no mistake, Canada is an
[21:21] important ally and neighbor, and we stand by it. There is no rebuffing
[21:25] of Canada, and that is what is important over here. Now you give
[21:30] comparisons of what happened directly between two countries where this Russia, UK, US,
[21:37] Russia US China. You can give empty number of examples on how diplomats
[21:44] have been expelled. But a country which is in the second tier of the
[21:51] main investigation, why should they be taking action? They should wait it out.
[21:56] India is a very important and powerful country today they are most probably working
[22:02] and cooperating and are in conversation constantly with the Indian side. America Secretary of
[22:07] State Lincoln has already said that we're in constant touch, which means they are
[22:12] engaging India to come out with whatever they have and they're sharing whatever they have
[22:18] and see what best can be done to solve this diplomatically. But for Trudeau,
[22:26] Trudeau took that step that UK, if it was directly on UK soil
[22:30] or America would have taken, which is expelling of a diplomat, which Canada
[22:36] did. A second tier country which is not directly involved right now does not
[22:41] or needn't have to take any action. They're showing support. Five Eyes Alliance
[22:49] is not going to break its alliance just because they need something from some country.
[22:56] They are going to stand strong. And look at the look at the
[23:03] statements that have come from the UK, from from Australia, From Australia Penny
[23:08] Wong, and from the US they have come and New Zealand they have come
[23:14] out on the question of sovereignty, which is what in our language it'll be
[23:19] like, because where are these Khalistani elements They're in these very four countries.
[23:29] Bring New Zealand as much, not as much, but US UK. Where
[23:33] this this element who keeps spewing venom and has been talking, uh, making
[23:40] hate speeches in Canada. He's actually American. He's not Canadian. Okay,
[23:45] I'm not naming him, but he's not American. He is. He's not
[23:49] Canadian. He's American. So America, Britain, Canada and Australia, whatever
[24:00] I want to say in the name of freedom, freedom of speech. Right
[24:02] now, the problem over here is this that they're bordering on violence, instigating
[24:07] violence, becoming violent themselves, and yet no action has been taken. But
[24:12] tell me, and this is where I say, yes, Canada is a
[24:18] soft not a soft not as strong as other countries. And the example is
[24:25] in the fact that there was violence in the UK at the Indian High Commission,
[24:30] the San Francisco Consulate, they try to break down the door. No
[24:34] action has been taken in those countries as well. So if there's a concerted
[24:40] effort, there has to be concerted effort against all these countries. Choosing a
[24:45] soft target such as Canada is not good enough. Of course, the worst
[24:49] cases in Canada, even these elements in America go actually to Canada to venm
[24:56] and put out those boards. So Trudeau has to look within, go beyond
[25:02] domestic politics and talk about the larger issue of violence. And how are these
[25:08] people who have taken up foreign citizenship talking about independence of a state in India.
[25:15] They're not even Indians. I can still understand if Indians say that no,
[25:18] I want my rights, I want separate. Is that you're supposed to
[25:22] listen to every citizen of your country. It might not be an acceptable thing,
[25:26] but you're supposed to listen. They're not even Indians, they're Canadians and
[25:32] Americans who are there to talk about secessionism in India. That should be the
[25:38] moot point with Canada, and that's where the problem lies. That Trudeau needs
[25:42] to realize that he has crossed over that thin line not so thin actually on
[25:51] freedom of speech now turning violent and instigating violence and instigating activities of terror which
[26:00] are also anti India activities. He came out and he said, we want
[26:04] good relations with India, we want cooperation with India, and so we should
[26:08] get to the bottom of this thing. So he should also get to the
[26:11] bottom of what is happening on the Khalistan front. How are hoardings coming up
[26:17] in Canada in the name of free speech? According to you, there was
[26:21] like a better way to addressing. Absolutely, this is a diplomatic disaster.
[26:26] To say the lad also like how India reacted to it. India's league,
[26:30] I mean, India's reaction has been rushed. I will say so because if
[26:36] you've already prejudged and said that it is motivated and absurd, instead of saying
[26:44] that we will give you a response only when you share the evidence, I
[26:49] would have thought that they would ask for the evidence even before committing to a
[26:55] statement as as as grave as the one that India's And yes, it would
[27:00] be motivated for India to India. It would seem motivated because you have an
[27:04] NDP alliance that sits and talks about Khalistan and Khalistan issue all the time.
[27:10] They're Canadians, They're not supposed to be talking about secessionist movements in India.
[27:15] It is an anti India act. And if you want to be friends and
[27:18] allies, then you should better your ways, you should write your ways when
[27:23] it comes to India's concerns. So, and this is not a new concern
[27:27] and it's been there since the time of Peer Trudeau. Justin Trudeau's father,
[27:36] he also had so many dossiers sent to him in the Ragandi, asked for
[27:40] extradition a few of them. And this is at the peak of Khalistan militancy
[27:45] in India. There was no forward movement. They were hardly forthcoming on this.
[27:52] They were actually not forthcoming on this. So there has been a constant
[27:56] problem when it comes to India Canada and the issue of Yeah, and we
[28:00] have actually discussed India the Khalistan as a movement. Also when you're discussing I'm
[28:07] repulsing in detail. You know, when you mentioned the Five Eyes intelligence the
[28:12] alliance, there's also i mean the official repose in Ottawa. They have actually
[28:18] cited evidence to suggest that Canada receives more from the Five Eyes Alliance than it
[28:25] sends to that alliance, which means that you know, there is definitely a
[28:29] hold in the particular alliance that Canada enjoys, which means that it gives all
[28:36] the more reasons to this alliance to back Canada and not kind of like upset
[28:41] it. But yes, now that you you know, the US's involvement has
[28:45] definitely got it like the situation even murkier. So in terms of like how
[28:52] India has responded to it. Now, this US alleged involvement to it does
[28:59] a complexity and I don't know absolutely the kind of romance that we've seen in
[29:03] the past a few months as well, So that in itself, I just
[29:07] wanted to ask like a question on this that when we speak of Trudeau,
[29:14] there was a I don't remember which poll it was, but it was carried
[29:18] out in July which stated that he has been he's the nation's worst prime minister
[29:22] in the past fifty five years. And you mentioned also that twenty eighteen he
[29:29] is losing popularity. He is losing popularity. In fact, if today Canada
[29:33] to go to polls, it will be the opposition leader, leader of the
[29:37] opposition who were all property will come back, will be an election. Yeah,
[29:41] I think that is how much he's lost. Yeah, but I think
[29:44] all these does add to like that narrative it is, Yeah, but it
[29:48] doesn't only but doesn't only have to do with Trudeau's policies towards in day.
[29:56] It has to do with their own economic policies, foreign policy per se.
[30:02] He has been at the receiving end of public ire on many issues, and
[30:11] Canadian economy is not faring very well. And then you had the entire truckers
[30:17] protest. So there's a law that Trudeau. Trudeau has had to face and
[30:23] he's lost popularity. Having said that, to your question or the discussion that
[30:30] the things that you just said about intel sharing, now within the five Eyes,
[30:34] Annah, it's them I six or British AM I six and the American
[30:41] CIA that are the strongest intelligence agencies not just within the Five Eye but across
[30:47] the world. So yes, the intelligence sharing is more to do with what
[30:52] they gather rather than what Canada or New Zealand can manage to gather, including
[30:57] Australia, So they are they are the leads. They take the lead on
[31:03] five eyes intelligence sharing and intelligence gathering. But the sharing means that in all
[31:08] spectrum of the world when it comes to these five key nations who think who
[31:15] are aligned with US policy, get that very same intelligence, which means they're
[31:22] aligned in their policies on geopolitics. Okay, and that's why they need to
[31:27] be on the same page, which is why I say that the US is
[31:32] not going to abandon Canada. They will not let go of India US partnership
[31:37] because there's a huge market in there's a defense partner. We have done much
[31:42] to gain advantage because of our defense buying capability, and somehow I think,
[31:52] you know, Washington, DC has been happy with a few things that they've
[31:56] got contracts, but maybe happy with a few things on at at what cost?
[32:04] So I'm just wondering where all this and how all this is going to
[32:07] fall in place in that entire jigsaw puzzle that you see where we thought first
[32:15] the Trudeau had come out with intel, later realizing you it was America.
[32:20] What does America's plan and all this the rains is in whose hands? Yes?
[32:24] And what's the plan? What's the end game? Yeah? I mean,
[32:29] isn't it like boycot a country? Right or no? There's going to
[32:32] be no boycotting. There's going to be some diplomatic serious conversation that will take
[32:37] place. But beyond that, I don't see boycott. But like do you
[32:42] mean serious diplomatic conversations as in like with respect to US and India relations more
[32:47] to do with respect to UK, India, US, India, Australia India.
[32:52] You see, Biden has been invited for the Republic Day as Chief Guest.
[33:00] Should there be evidence which they themselves gathered. By the way, Canada
[33:04] only did the leg job of determining who, what, when, but the
[33:07] initial intel came from US. Should that be will have to wait and see
[33:12] whether Biden will actually come to India for the Republic Day or will it become
[33:16] an annual event of Quad. So Quad happened in June the first time,
[33:21] in the second time around June July, and we were trying to pre reschedule
[33:25] it to January twenty sixth so that it falls or twenty fifth Chan and then
[33:30] twenty sixth. Biden would have stayed on as a Republic Day Chief Guest,
[33:36] but that might not play as planned. Again, we don't know whether he's
[33:40] going to come or not. I'm speaking way in advance and way above my
[33:46] pay grade. But but the fact is that if this evidence comes, there
[33:53] could be a very decent, honorable, you know, declining or of the
[34:00] invitation saying that let's keep it annual. There are scheduling issues. August twenty
[34:06] jan twenty six is also Australian National Day, so al Benasy certainly will not
[34:10] be able to make it on the twenty sixth, which is why they were
[34:14] planning to have quad most probably on the twenty five. But then the Japanese
[34:17] parliament is in session and Japan said that is going to be very difficult for
[34:21] them to make it. They have all the reasons to say scheduling issues.
[34:25] So let's see if Biden actually comes as the chief guest. Yeah, I
[34:30] think that's like way, I mean far fights to tell, but it's not
[34:35] that far. October, November, December. It's solid. But what happens
[34:40] in June, which is why they might just say just keep it annual.
[34:46] Coming within six months for an American president has never happened in such quick succession,
[34:53] so that again could be a reason. So let's see and just one
[34:59] last thing that I wanted to, you know, ask you that we've focused
[35:02] on Canada, focused on the US and the Five Lands, but within the
[35:07] India, you know, like in the introduction itself, I said, and
[35:10] you also pointed out that these all these Khalistani elements, they exist outside the
[35:15] country, right they And it's just like instances like these that you know,
[35:20] irk the situations. But this I wanted to ask about this party here,
[35:28] the Romania Khalid Amitzer, because I happened to come across this politician it's called
[35:35] a similar Teeth Sighman who belongs to this party is an MP now and he
[35:40] became one in the latest Punjab elections here. Now, this kind of seemed
[35:45] like a bit weird to me that this person is very vocal about the fact
[35:50] that he wants a separate seek state or Khalistan, and it's in his Twitter
[35:55] bio. And I think when he was elected, what a brief period of
[36:00] time he had apparently like deleted this fact from his Twitter, but then later
[36:04] it was restored and all of his like I watched like two or three speeches
[36:09] of his and he all of his speeches are talking about the fact that even
[36:14] after Bindin valle India won't be able to douse the desire for Khalistan and this
[36:20] entire the recent India Canada role. He seems to be siding with Trudeau and
[36:24] Canada's claim claims that India was in fact behind nature's killing, not just that,
[36:30] not just that, like he says, seeks are being killed around the
[36:35] world. And then he also talks about deep Sidhu and Muzevala blaming basically like
[36:39] blaming the Indian state for those two as well. So I was kind of
[36:45] like wondering that why is the Indian state not cracking down on such elements,
[36:52] because because we have seen supposedly secessionists, students and activists being jailed for far
[36:59] less. So how do you see this? Like I see it as contrarian
[37:02] in many ways than one. Yes, because for far less a crime,
[37:07] you've seen people being put behind bars. But I think it also has to
[37:14] do with domestic politics and Punjab politics. For him to be to have been
[37:22] elected in itself means that he has or enjoys massive support. Clearly, Yeah,
[37:28] I think one by like five thousand farm laws and the protests that ensued
[37:34] showed showed the administration that taking action against people who have wide support could create
[37:44] problems. Don't forget Punjab is a border state. You don't want trouble in
[37:49] a in a border state. But should there be links as if? Now
[37:54] in all probability it's only because there might not be any financial links as such
[38:00] too. Connect him with Khalistani elements in Canada. But should there be any
[38:07] links and should they need to tighten the cruise? Make no mistake, the
[38:12] Indian administration will catch him, We'll get behind him. But I mean it's
[38:17] like like I said, But yes, I agree, I agree for and
[38:22] look at the look at the kind of interviews he's giving and the threats that
[38:25] he's issued or what like. Hasn't died what feed is just like one.
[38:30] Yes, does not even need to do like a background checkets is there?
[38:34] Yes? But you know, seeking self determining determination of what you think should
[38:42] be. You know, your idea of a state is not new to India.
[38:47] It's a conversation that's ongoing. Kashmir is a case in point. There
[38:55] was a time and there were a lot of conversations and engaging of the hurreeth
[39:00] Okay, the moderate faction who is seeking autonomy, including the separatist faction which
[39:07] is Ayah Delisha Gilani and the rest there are. There are many who still
[39:13] talk about Kashmir and not being part of the state of India, and that
[39:20] those conversations, anybody who's talking about this is not does not become or end
[39:27] up becoming a secessionist per se. In terms of action, if they start
[39:32] taking action. If this man starts taking action in creating a separate state,
[39:38] then he will certainly be put behind bars. I'm sure there's a lot of
[39:44] politics involved, but if I could go back before we close this conversation,
[39:49] Anna on the whole situation of Khalistan and my experience of having reported the issue
[39:57] for many, many years across governments. These Khalistani elements were very active even
[40:04] during the Reupia regime and before that during the NDA one of art Al Bihari
[40:10] Vajpai and before you know, since we've had the Draga and the government and
[40:16] the problem of Khalistan movement. What the difference that I see in how this
[40:23] government has tackled it and maybe now it has come the hens have come home
[40:28] to roost as opposed to the previous government is just playing this when earlier this
[40:32] group at one Singh Panuma or whatever the guy when he started his activism and
[40:42] then anti India activities now bordering on terrorism, way back when Manoansen used to
[40:49] go to it because he's American. When Manohansen used to go to America,
[40:52] he would try just being around the area where you can just throw a notice
[40:55] and if the person has seen you do it, it is a notice.
[40:59] Serve just to take you know the end in politician to God. That's how
[41:05] desperate he was. All we were told back then was please do not give
[41:10] importance to these elements. And after a point, after doing a story or
[41:15] two, we just say that, yes, case has been filed, so
[41:17] on and support and that's that because you know, you report what is happening.
[41:22] But we never gave importance. What feeds these elements projection publicity, So
[41:32] not giving publicity really helped in this case. In the recent past, what
[41:38] we've seen is when you want to take on a government and you think they're
[41:42] not good there, then you say, oh, look they have Khalistanis there.
[41:45] Look what Khalistanis are doing. And then there are videos of a galore
[41:50] that are center that's used. You have given them publicity of feeding the monster
[41:54] then the community thinks they have strength, and then there's more behind these elements
[42:01] who think now see people are watching, the world is watching. How did
[42:06] this guy start with a referendum? He started with a referendum many years ago.
[42:10] Nobody was listening to him because we would not give him attention at all,
[42:15] or any of these guys. So it was almost like a dying thing,
[42:20] a small group within themselves. They would keep doing this and that's that.
[42:23] Yeah, and nothing happened. You have these Chinese activists who do the
[42:28] same thing. Not a bad example to give, but I'm just saying that
[42:31] no publicity means that they are just a diminishing you know, body which are
[42:39] in a decade or more will be non existent. But over here you feed
[42:45] them by giving them publicity. If I wish the same instructions were there during
[42:50] this regime instead, when you have to take on Canada, send these videos,
[42:54] you should have just said no matter what, irrespective, do not if
[43:00] Kalistan is space at all. If that was the standing instruction, I don't
[43:05] think this would have had this bad And if it were, it still would
[43:10] have been confined to you know what is happening within Canada. Canada's problem.
[43:16] Now it has become an India problem. And the fact that they're now alleging
[43:22] that there's an India hand is because of all the things that we're now seeing.
[43:25] Why. Yeah, so we have fed the monster. Now the monster
[43:32] has come the Frank and yes, to create more problems than was necessary.
[43:43] I wish that now with this there are some lessons learned on how to deal
[43:47] with Khalistan. It's not just about two countries dealing. It's all about media
[43:52] houses dealing and ensuring that Khalistanis. Do not get space on your platform the
[43:59] moment you stop giving them space just to embarrass one country or the other.
[44:02] If you stop giving them space and just say that this happened, don't show
[44:07] videos this happened, India raised an issue. That's that and move on.
[44:13] There will be nothing the moment you start showing those yellow flags and all of
[44:16] that, it's free publicity. Yeah. Such an such an idealistic way to
[44:23] end this discussion, the note that we started on in the notes that we're
[44:28] ending, But unfortunately the way it pans out it is just like completely in
[44:32] contrast. So you know, the idealism and capitalism. Yeah, don't always
[44:37] don't always go together, but like, thanks for that. I don't think
[44:42] Canada will understand your language of idealism and capitalism. They'll say capitalism is ideal,
[44:47] it's idea. What are you talking about, America? Canada will not
[44:52] understand what you just said. India will a certain India certainly still continues to
[44:57] have a socialist leaning. Huh. Yeah, I will actually agree to that.
[45:00] Yes, yes, because we are a well estate, we still our
[45:05] developing nation. True. So okay, enough of chit chat. Next week,
[45:08] Anna is not going to be in the studio. Wow, let me
[45:12] just literally just end with that. But will you coming to the studio?
[45:16] Who knows? Maybe I will. Okay, So I'll put an end to
[45:23] this, and thank you so much, Geita, thank you. I won't
[45:28] be there in the studio, but I'll just be you know, I'll still
[45:32] be connecting via zoom despite my worst audio quality that I can you know,
[45:38] arrange for So thanks to all the listeners. You've been garnering a lot of
[45:45] support, and Geita has been vocally expressing that on her Twitter feed in stuff,
[45:50] so please do follow her and follow us on in the Today Podcast Twitter
[45:54] page. And we also have a WhatsApp channel now, so yeah, so
[46:00] this is news for Githa as well, so please follow and spread the word.
[46:04] If we have been doing such this podcast for like quite sometimes sixty two
[46:07] episodes, it's not it's not a joke. It's not a joke. Yeah,
[46:12] guys, please spread the word, so please do. And the number
[46:15] is eight five, double eight nine, double six, double line six.
[46:19] This is the number that you can reach out to us and the WhatsApp channel
[46:23] as well and the email ideas pots at the rate in DA today dot com.
[46:29] So we'll be back next week with me not in the studio. Thank
[46:31] you, thank you,

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