# Bangladesh: Did BNP play liberal to orchestrate Hasina's ouster? | Geeta's World, Ep 100

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 13 Aug 2024, 38 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/61014943/13_aug_24_geeta_world_13_aug_re_128.mp3

Bangladesh is facing unrest, with ensuring peace being the foremost challenge. While it was expected that violence would cease after Sheikh Hasina's resignation, the situation has worsened, particularly with escalating atrocities against Bangladeshi Hindus. Why is the caretaker government under Mohammed Yunus letting people run amok and not ensuring communal harmony? Before her exit, Sheikh Hasina claimed that "conspiracies" were being plotted to topple her government. She alleged that the US intended to acquire St Martin's Island to build a military base in exchange for the BNP's electoral victory. Is it true that this island influenced how the US sought to steer Bangladesh's political landscape? Given that both the US and China believe the BNP would align more closely with them, which superpower is getting its calculations wrong? In this episode of Geeta's World, our host, Anna Priyadarshini, and the foreign affairs editor at India Today, TV Today Network, Geeta Mohan, discuss! Listen in! Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Sachin Dwivedi

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is in There Today podcasts.
[0:04] Speaker 2: Bangladesh is facing significant unrest, with ensuring peace being the
[0:08] Speaker 2: foremost challenge. While it was expected that violence would cease
[0:12] Speaker 2: after Shai Cassina's resignation, the situation has worsened, particularly with
[0:17] Speaker 2: escalating atrocities against Bangladeshi Hindus. So why is the caretaker
[0:22] Speaker 2: government under Mohammad Yunus letting people run a mock and
[0:25] Speaker 2: not ensuring communal harmony?
[0:27] Speaker 3: I think because there is no law in order per sees,
[0:31] Speaker 3: and the situation exists because there are no administrative heads
[0:34] Speaker 3: in place right now. A lot of them quit, a
[0:37] Speaker 3: lot of them left, a lot of them have gone
[0:39] Speaker 3: underground because they were all considered Sha Cassina's people.
[0:42] Speaker 2: And months before her exit, Hassina claimed the US wanted
[0:46] Speaker 2: Sent Martin's Island for a military base in exchange for
[0:49] Speaker 2: B and PACE victory. So is it true that this
[0:52] Speaker 2: island influenced how the US sought to steer Bangladesh's political landscape?
[0:57] Speaker 2: And given that both the US and China believe that
[1:01] Speaker 2: the B and P would align more closely with them
[1:03] Speaker 2: with superpowers getting its calculations.
[1:06] Speaker 3: Wrong, Saint Martin's Island did play a role in how
[1:10] Speaker 3: US wanted to steer over here, there's another aspect. Has
[1:14] Speaker 3: America been played by the Chinese? And BMP will not
[1:17] Speaker 3: let go of China wine because US came later the
[1:21] Speaker 3: original friends of Pakistan China.
[1:25] Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Anna Pradashani with India Today TV's Foreign Affairs
[1:29] Speaker 2: editor Jeita Mohan. Where with Gita's astute and incisive crasp
[1:33] Speaker 2: of world affairs, we delve into all that is urgent
[1:37] Speaker 2: and pressing in world politics and comprehend how these developments
[1:41] Speaker 2: in other countries would shape India's global ambitions of being
[1:45] Speaker 2: a wish for Guru, Let's unravel Geita's world. Well, this
[1:53] Speaker 2: is the one hundredth episode of Keitah's Way, Finally, finally,
[1:57] Speaker 2: one hundred counting Kaita one hundred in county soon five
[2:00] Speaker 2: and many.
[2:01] Speaker 3: More to go.
[2:02] Speaker 1: Thousand.
[2:02] Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, But then I really want to thank you
[2:06] Speaker 2: Gaita for being so generous, kind enough to lend us
[2:10] Speaker 2: your time, because I remember this is how we started.
[2:13] Speaker 2: You know, you were in Russia Ukraine covering the war
[2:17] Speaker 2: and we were waiting for you to come back because.
[2:19] Speaker 3: We just and that's when we planned this, right, No,
[2:22] Speaker 3: I be generous, this is a great spot for us
[2:26] Speaker 3: to put things in perspective. We see a lot of
[2:29] Speaker 3: news that's done and misinformation that spread, so for me,
[2:34] Speaker 3: this is a great space to actually come and talk
[2:36] Speaker 3: about things. Yeah I'm not saying we're always correct, but
[2:42] Speaker 3: to share perspective on things and why and contextualized stories
[2:47] Speaker 3: you see, put it in context. So it's been great.
[2:50] Speaker 3: It's been a great journey, great ride, one hundredth episode,
[2:54] Speaker 3: a lot of appreciation, well taken criticism as well instructively
[3:00] Speaker 3: taken criticism. We're trying to improve on a few things
[3:04] Speaker 3: that we've heard or read our viewers and listeners say.
[3:08] Speaker 2: So right, I mean, the last episode Bangladesha had like
[3:12] Speaker 2: a flurry of comments, and we understand that because you know,
[3:15] Speaker 2: it's not like black or white. It's always grayish. It's
[3:19] Speaker 2: not like what we are saying. It's like you know,
[3:21] Speaker 2: mis Gospels truth, so there will be differences. And also
[3:25] Speaker 2: on the fact, you know, just want to add that
[3:27] Speaker 2: because Sigita's World we have complete one hundred episodes, but
[3:31] Speaker 2: I also take pride in the fact that we have
[3:34] Speaker 2: also dealt with issues that often escape you know, the
[3:37] Speaker 2: mainstream headlines, like for example.
[3:39] Speaker 3: Mainstream headlines here. I mean in their own countries, they'd
[3:43] Speaker 3: be big news, of course, but it's escapes.
[3:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, for example, Sodan crisis, for example, the drought over there,
[3:49] Speaker 2: I mean, the famine. I mean we did not know this,
[3:52] Speaker 2: the Najaya kup, you know, or the Armenia conflict. I
[3:57] Speaker 2: think that did you know?
[3:59] Speaker 3: For fine discovered quite because wars and conflicts now get covered, right,
[4:05] Speaker 3: but internal strife, civil war, civil undrest, those many times
[4:12] Speaker 3: escape mainstream media. So we've managed to cover that cover
[4:17] Speaker 3: ground on very critical issues that impact the world in
[4:22] Speaker 3: directly or indirectly. And we managed to do that.
[4:25] Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I think we should also curate
[4:28] Speaker 2: a list of our favorite episodes and yeah, and then
[4:32] Speaker 2: we should do that.
[4:33] Speaker 1: Because I never asked you this, but we could do.
[4:36] Speaker 3: That as a maybe end of the year. Yeah, actually, yeah,
[4:40] Speaker 3: talk about our favorite episodes. I mean you talk of
[4:42] Speaker 3: yours and I talk of mine. Yeah, we'll do that.
[4:46] Speaker 2: So this week also we are discussing Bangladesh because last time,
[4:49] Speaker 2: actually when we had recorded, it was just like it
[4:52] Speaker 2: had just been a day, because Monday it happened last
[4:55] Speaker 2: week that shakes in that you know, fled to Indo
[4:58] Speaker 2: and Tuesday, we were recording so so angers and issues
[5:01] Speaker 2: like for example, there was one person who commented that
[5:04] Speaker 2: why are you not exploring the US issue, the US involvement?
[5:07] Speaker 2: But that came later.
[5:08] Speaker 3: I mean, we know it was there, but it was
[5:11] Speaker 3: never touched upon it. But why of it the strategic
[5:14] Speaker 3: aspect we'll discuss today.
[5:16] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[5:16] Speaker 3: And also sometimes when the news is breaking, you focus
[5:19] Speaker 3: on the news. The news was what happened? What is
[5:23] Speaker 3: the quota policy all about? What was that agitation? Did
[5:27] Speaker 3: Shea Casina go wrong or not? But today we can
[5:30] Speaker 3: talk about exactly what was transpiring in the past few
[5:35] Speaker 3: years for it to come to this exactly.
[5:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, And for that, I think let's begin by answering
[5:42] Speaker 2: this fact that last time you said that, you know,
[5:45] Speaker 2: prevailing peace would be the biggest challenge for the military
[5:49] Speaker 2: then and now a caretaker government under Mohamad Younos. But
[5:53] Speaker 2: and you also said that, you know, the protesters don't
[5:56] Speaker 2: have a reason to continue now because she hasna has fled.
[6:00] Speaker 3: You have you know in the quota policy policy was
[6:03] Speaker 3: taken back during her government itself, exactly, which is why
[6:06] Speaker 3: we questioned why did it continue continue?
[6:08] Speaker 2: We are right, so, but then what we are seeing
[6:11] Speaker 2: right now. It has snowballed into, you know, the atrocities
[6:16] Speaker 2: against the Hindu minorities in Bangladesh. The Daily Star, which
[6:19] Speaker 2: is of Bangladeshi is daily and it stated that Hindu
[6:22] Speaker 2: houses and businesses were attacked in twenty seven districts on
[6:26] Speaker 2: fifth August itself, and almost seventy percent of total districts
[6:31] Speaker 2: saw targeting of Hindu homes. In fact, there was a
[6:34] Speaker 2: Hindu report as well which says that at least two
[6:38] Speaker 2: Hindu organizations in Bangladesh and members of minority community have
[6:43] Speaker 2: faced at least two hundred and five attacks across fifty
[6:47] Speaker 2: two districts.
[6:49] Speaker 3: So I interviewed the Human Rights Vers Deputy Director Minashi
[6:52] Speaker 3: Ganguli and for South Asia and she said that before
[6:56] Speaker 3: the before Shaikhasina fled and these unofficial reports you cannot
[7:02] Speaker 3: confirm data because government has not put out those numbers yet.
[7:06] Speaker 3: She said about three hundred to four hundred people had
[7:08] Speaker 3: died in a spa of whatever weeks, you know, with
[7:10] Speaker 3: the protests were taking place and the high handedness of
[7:14] Speaker 3: Hassena administration. But in the span of those few days
[7:19] Speaker 3: after Shake Casina, it was just about three or four
[7:21] Speaker 3: days span of those three or four days that Shake
[7:25] Speaker 3: Casina left and resigned, there were two hundred deaths. So
[7:32] Speaker 3: in a matter of a few days itself, they had
[7:35] Speaker 3: more debts than you know in the beginning of the
[7:40] Speaker 3: protest that took place, because the total number of deaths
[7:43] Speaker 3: before was announced about four hundred unofficially some say three hundred.
[7:49] Speaker 3: But over here it's about old irony.
[7:52] Speaker 2: Is that Shake Casina in a perpeted letter. We don't
[7:55] Speaker 2: know if she has written because of Sun has denied it.
[7:58] Speaker 2: But then she has said that if I would I resigned.
[8:01] Speaker 2: But then if I had stayed, you know, there would
[8:04] Speaker 2: have been more deaths, which I did not want, and
[8:06] Speaker 2: that's why I resigned. But then the deaths are not stopping,
[8:09] Speaker 2: the killings are not stopping.
[8:11] Speaker 3: So it's just that who who is being targeted now
[8:14] Speaker 3: that has changed changed, Although the two hundred deaths that
[8:18] Speaker 3: we're talking about are not all minorities. They're our league supporters,
[8:22] Speaker 3: our League leaders themselves, so homes of businesses who gained
[8:29] Speaker 3: or flourished during the Scena regime.
[8:33] Speaker 2: Yeah, questions should be asked, right Keita? That why because
[8:38] Speaker 2: now the interim leader is mom. But you know, so
[8:40] Speaker 2: connect questions will be posed against him.
[8:43] Speaker 1: The violence is not stopping.
[8:45] Speaker 2: You know, we are seeing visuals images they are like
[8:48] Speaker 2: really disturbing, and I mean, I'm not demeaning it. But
[8:52] Speaker 2: then there are fakeness as well, which we should be
[8:54] Speaker 2: aware of. But it doesn't mean that attacks are not happening.
[8:58] Speaker 2: They are happening. But and let's also compare. I'm not
[9:01] Speaker 2: equating the two here in the same bread, but let's
[9:03] Speaker 2: also factor in Ong Sang Suchi who is I mean,
[9:08] Speaker 2: who was my mersenal leader? And she was a Nobel
[9:13] Speaker 2: Peace Prize winner, and here we also have a Nobel
[9:16] Speaker 2: Peace Prize winner she also.
[9:18] Speaker 3: Couldn't I mean, whether whether we equate or not. Yeah,
[9:21] Speaker 3: Ang Sang Succi's record when it comes to Muslims of
[9:24] Speaker 3: her own country has been quite a business, quite bad.
[9:29] Speaker 2: So what isn't that you know, we are not able
[9:32] Speaker 2: to gurb it. It's mean almost ten days, I mean
[9:35] Speaker 2: seven eight days.
[9:37] Speaker 3: So I think because there is no law in order
[9:40] Speaker 3: per se, and the situation exists because there are no
[9:44] Speaker 3: administrative heads in place right now. A lot of them quit,
[9:48] Speaker 3: a lot of them left, a lot of them have
[9:50] Speaker 3: gone underground because they were all considered shaksin as people,
[9:54] Speaker 3: so which is why in the streets and we have
[9:57] Speaker 3: a report on the ground. She has been reporting in
[10:01] Speaker 3: the streets of dark Art there were kids, college students
[10:06] Speaker 3: who are volunteering to direct traffic because there are no
[10:10] Speaker 3: cops in the streets. So like Dr Eunis said that
[10:15] Speaker 3: when we have all this in place, and I was
[10:18] Speaker 3: interviewing the b and P General secretary, who's going to
[10:21] Speaker 3: be a very important man should there be elections and
[10:24] Speaker 3: whenever the elections are held, he's the BNP General secretary
[10:27] Speaker 3: for krul Islam Alamgir. So Mirzalamgir actually said that once
[10:34] Speaker 3: we have administrative heads in place, once we have the
[10:38] Speaker 3: law and order, you know, personnel in place, the things
[10:43] Speaker 3: on the ground will return to normal. Although yes, I
[10:46] Speaker 3: do know that, you know from reports that are coming in,
[10:48] Speaker 3: they're trying very hard for normalcy to return. Doctor Eunice,
[10:52] Speaker 3: I don't think imagine that the violence will be this bad.
[10:55] Speaker 3: He said that he'll resign the Jamat. But the Jamath
[10:58] Speaker 3: is the Jamath they have been going after and they
[11:02] Speaker 3: have been targeting Hindus again, you know. For Alamir said
[11:08] Speaker 3: that why do you keep saying BNP and Jamath in
[11:12] Speaker 3: the same breath. It's not like we're going to fight
[11:14] Speaker 3: elections together. They have a very different ideology if we
[11:18] Speaker 3: have a very different ideology, So keep you know. So
[11:21] Speaker 3: BNP is trying to create its own niche where it
[11:24] Speaker 3: wants to look and seem inclusive. And why do I
[11:26] Speaker 3: say that is because to get all the support from
[11:30] Speaker 3: America and come and then look divisive will not go
[11:34] Speaker 3: down well for them off of Washington, DC. Although DC
[11:38] Speaker 3: denies any contact. But the fact is that if you
[11:41] Speaker 3: go through all the meetings that have taken place, and
[11:45] Speaker 3: I'll enumerate them for you, you'll see the connect Let's let's.
[11:51] Speaker 2: Let's uh try to understand that because the US's involvement,
[11:55] Speaker 2: I think months before actually shake us in, you know,
[12:01] Speaker 2: like she left and she fled to India. This had,
[12:06] Speaker 2: you know, come up in the forefront and there's a
[12:10] Speaker 2: perportit letter which stays and I just want to quote
[12:13] Speaker 2: that where she has said that allegedly said that I
[12:17] Speaker 2: could have remained in power if I had surrendered the
[12:19] Speaker 2: sovereignty of Saint Martin Island and allowed America to hold
[12:24] Speaker 2: sway over the way of Bengal, and I besieged to
[12:27] Speaker 2: the people of my land, please do not be manipulated
[12:30] Speaker 2: by radicals. Twelve months before the exit her exit, I mean,
[12:33] Speaker 2: she said that she claimed that conspiracies were being hatched
[12:37] Speaker 2: to topple her government and also alleged that a white
[12:40] Speaker 2: man's plot, you know, there was there to carve a
[12:44] Speaker 2: new Christian country out of bangladation Manmar. So first, is
[12:49] Speaker 2: it true. Second, we know that Saint Martin's Island has
[12:53] Speaker 2: dominated Bangladesh politics. I read up and I found that,
[12:57] Speaker 2: you know, since the country's creation in ninety seventy one,
[13:00] Speaker 2: it's proximity to the Bay of Bengal and the maritime
[13:04] Speaker 2: you know, boundary with Mayamar. They it has led to
[13:07] Speaker 2: you know, international interest, particularly of course from the US
[13:11] Speaker 2: and China. And there is also a war between I
[13:14] Speaker 2: mean not a war, but a conflict between Bangladesh and
[13:17] Speaker 2: my and my regarding you know.
[13:19] Speaker 3: That is not to do with sovereignty or ownership. It
[13:22] Speaker 3: has to do with delimitation of the waters. But how
[13:25] Speaker 3: much can they go? Their fishermen go or not go?
[13:28] Speaker 3: And so why which is why Bangladeshi fishermen often get
[13:32] Speaker 3: detained by the Burmese or the Mayanmar forces. Having said that,
[13:39] Speaker 3: but it's a it's a Saint Martin's is not something
[13:42] Speaker 3: that comes up only now. It's not a recent phenomenon.
[13:46] Speaker 3: It is something that has that goes back years. And
[13:49] Speaker 3: you in this entire war of supremacy in the region
[13:53] Speaker 3: or war for supremacy in the region between the US
[13:56] Speaker 3: and China, Bangladesh has become jupilar strategically, very very important,
[14:02] Speaker 3: which is why China aldi has made a lot of
[14:05] Speaker 3: in roads and US tried very hard. And Saint Martin's
[14:10] Speaker 3: is part of that entire politics. So when you say
[14:13] Speaker 3: Bangladesh politics has has had a predominant feature in the
[14:23] Speaker 3: United States of America and the China War and how
[14:25] Speaker 3: the US wanted the space, it's not new. She Casina
[14:29] Speaker 3: in fact alleged that leveled allegations against BNP that they
[14:35] Speaker 3: were willing to sell the island to win elections, and
[14:40] Speaker 3: BNP wild has denied it. So has Washington d C.
[14:43] Speaker 3: White Houses come out and said out tried that there's
[14:46] Speaker 3: been no interference, but they did there were conversations about
[14:50] Speaker 3: naval base in Saint Martin's and that's something that certainly
[14:54] Speaker 3: is an aspect that should be looked at and looked
[14:57] Speaker 3: into So what happened was that America wanted space in Bangladesh,
[15:03] Speaker 3: America was not getting that hold as it would have wanted.
[15:08] Speaker 3: And what happened in the process was somewhere around twenty sixteen,
[15:13] Speaker 3: Bangladesh went ahead and joined the Chinese Belton Road Initiative,
[15:19] Speaker 3: the only country in this part particularly to have joined
[15:24] Speaker 3: officially joined the Belton Road Initiative. That did not go
[15:28] Speaker 3: down well with US because they did not agree on
[15:33] Speaker 3: becoming a part of the Indo Pacific strategy of initiated
[15:37] Speaker 3: by the US, or even part of QUAD or you know,
[15:40] Speaker 3: such smaller blocks. But they willfully and willingly were went
[15:47] Speaker 3: ahead and joined the Belton Road Initiative. Now there are
[15:52] Speaker 3: two things to it. America, of course was riled, but
[15:56] Speaker 3: so was India. India was concerned that Bangladesh is Bangladesh
[16:00] Speaker 3: going the China away, to which I think shake Cassina
[16:03] Speaker 3: government made it very clear that her priority in keeping
[16:06] Speaker 3: India's interests intact and above all is or will remain unchanged,
[16:14] Speaker 3: and which is what happened. So she'd make trips to China,
[16:17] Speaker 3: but she would also engage India and make trips to
[16:20] Speaker 3: Indian The connectivity projects between Indian and Bangladesh were far greater.
[16:25] Speaker 3: But economically, yes, she was striking the balance to ensure
[16:29] Speaker 3: that her country's economy grows. And since then, let me
[16:35] Speaker 3: just enumerate the numbers over here or the number of visits.
[16:40] Speaker 3: So it began with the US imposing visa restrictions on
[16:44] Speaker 3: some of the Bangladeshi leaders and individuals because of the
[16:48] Speaker 3: way Shake Casina had started conducting herself. Let's make no
[16:52] Speaker 3: let there be no doubt over here that if this
[16:56] Speaker 3: has happened to Shake Casina, it wouldn't have happened if
[16:59] Speaker 3: she was not or she would she hadn't become such
[17:02] Speaker 3: an authoritarian leader. So because she was making mistakes, it
[17:06] Speaker 3: was very easy for them to capitalize on those mistakes,
[17:10] Speaker 3: for the US to capital the US and for the
[17:12] Speaker 3: opposition BNP to capitalize on those mistakes. If she would have,
[17:16] Speaker 3: if she would have been the democratic leader that you
[17:19] Speaker 3: know she claims to be and did not hold politicians prisoners,
[17:25] Speaker 3: did not curtail press freedom, then there was no reason
[17:29] Speaker 3: for BNP to say. And then you know, if they
[17:31] Speaker 3: would have put up a quota policy and there were
[17:34] Speaker 3: protests she went back on it, it would have quietened,
[17:38] Speaker 3: but there was a concerted effort to prove that she
[17:40] Speaker 3: Casina was becoming authoritarian, and she was giving reasons for
[17:44] Speaker 3: them to prove it as well.
[17:45] Speaker 1: It's very important.
[17:46] Speaker 3: So what happened was in twenty twenty three of May,
[17:51] Speaker 3: you started imposing restrictions. In July, Donald luth the Assistant
[17:56] Speaker 3: Secretary of State for South Asia and Ozraze, the person
[18:01] Speaker 3: who looks into the human rights, they were involved in
[18:06] Speaker 3: meetings in Taka and there was tension there when they went.
[18:12] Speaker 3: Then again in October twenty twenty three, Donald who again
[18:15] Speaker 3: condemned all the political violence. Twenty twenty four January, he
[18:20] Speaker 3: again visited Dhaka spoke about continuous US interests in Bangladesha's
[18:27] Speaker 3: political situation. In May, again Donald Who visited Taka, which
[18:32] Speaker 3: included engagements with students, some of whom today can be
[18:38] Speaker 3: identified as the influencers in the protests that took place.
[18:43] Speaker 3: So he was engaging these activists and now protesters as well.
[18:49] Speaker 3: And particularly what was important and interesting was that Donald
[18:52] Speaker 3: Lou also met with the army chief, the very same
[18:56] Speaker 3: man who gave Shakers enough forty five minutes notice to
[19:01] Speaker 3: leave the country. So and again any officer who goes
[19:07] Speaker 3: to a foreign country does engage leaders, oppositions, students, activists.
[19:12] Speaker 3: But I'm just spelling it out now. The other angle
[19:15] Speaker 3: that you have is there are Wikiligue's cables of two
[19:19] Speaker 3: thousand and seven and you see engagement of Professor Eunice
[19:23] Speaker 3: with the United States of America where he's actually seeking
[19:27] Speaker 3: help from them with regards to the Sakasina government. That's
[19:31] Speaker 3: when things were going down south for them. There's an
[19:35] Speaker 3: email from French President Nicolas Sarkozy saying that they indicating
[19:41] Speaker 3: the Sakozi government plan to monitor and address unitses removal
[19:45] Speaker 3: from the Gramin Bank because back then when he was
[19:48] Speaker 3: heading the Gramin Back, he's the founder of going back.
[19:51] Speaker 3: Shea Bekasina removed him and there were charges of corruption,
[19:54] Speaker 3: but you see the West had started looking at it.
[19:57] Speaker 3: Twenty eleven, there's an email league featuring correspondence between Hillary
[20:02] Speaker 3: Clinton and the Chief of Staff Cheryl Mills, again noting
[20:07] Speaker 3: unus's involvement in an economic advisory bought for Haiti. And
[20:11] Speaker 3: then there's a US Senate Judiciary Committee report which accused
[20:14] Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton of intervening on unus's behalf to halt corruption
[20:19] Speaker 3: investigation in the Grammy in bank case.
[20:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, like apparently Unos and Grammy organizations donated like really
[20:27] Speaker 2: amount of Hillary Clinton foundations.
[20:31] Speaker 3: Yes, so you see there is a lot of connect
[20:35] Speaker 3: We can anybody can draw any conclusions. They can say that, well,
[20:38] Speaker 3: we were doing it because we were concerned about the situation.
[20:42] Speaker 3: But when you're concerned about about the situation and you're
[20:44] Speaker 3: engaging the opposition and aiding and making statements for the
[20:53] Speaker 3: opposition and in and against shaik Asina in a way
[20:57] Speaker 3: not really paying heat to India's interest because in the
[21:01] Speaker 3: long run this could mean not so good news for India,
[21:05] Speaker 3: and India is a strategic partner of the United States
[21:07] Speaker 3: of America, then it does become a concern. So yes,
[21:11] Speaker 3: and finally, uh, this entire student body that Donald lou
[21:15] Speaker 3: met are the ones are the ones who actually demanded
[21:19] Speaker 3: Unesses to be appointed chief advisor.
[21:25] Speaker 2: So it means that, I mean, we can't like they
[21:28] Speaker 2: cannot say it with truck can just stay it out
[21:32] Speaker 2: here and let but it just it all means that
[21:35] Speaker 2: it I mean, everything not you know, did not happen
[21:38] Speaker 2: all of a sudden.
[21:39] Speaker 1: It did not. It was in the making, like you said, right,
[21:42] Speaker 1: at last.
[21:44] Speaker 3: And Saint Martin's Island did play a role in how
[21:49] Speaker 3: US wanted to steer. Will b n P again, you know,
[21:53] Speaker 3: succumb to US pressure. I don't really know. I don't
[21:56] Speaker 3: I don't really know because over here there's an other aspect.
[22:00] Speaker 3: Has America been played by the Chinese. There are so
[22:04] Speaker 3: many in the in the Bangladeshi Air Force and navy,
[22:08] Speaker 3: if not the army, so in the Bangladeshi military who
[22:13] Speaker 3: have made empty number of visits to China, and so
[22:18] Speaker 3: if they are to be if they if they're still
[22:21] Speaker 3: in control, if they're still part because China is still
[22:23] Speaker 3: an important part of Bangladesh, partner of Bangladesh, and BNP
[22:28] Speaker 3: will not let go of China. Why because US came
[22:32] Speaker 3: later Anna, the original friends of Pakistan and China and China.
[22:36] Speaker 2: That's what I remember, Gita, remember when we were discussing
[22:39] Speaker 2: the India out campaign in Bangladesh and I had asked
[22:42] Speaker 2: you this that who is getting their calculations wrong? The
[22:45] Speaker 2: US is saying that, okay, we don't want to shake
[22:47] Speaker 2: a scene now. I mean they think that a BNP,
[22:51] Speaker 2: you know, power.
[22:54] Speaker 3: Playing ball with the US.
[22:55] Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that is I mean that's very mistated.
[22:58] Speaker 3: And B but BNP they are betweaked its policies to
[23:03] Speaker 3: adjust both REI it was Pakistan China. Now they're looking
[23:07] Speaker 3: at engaging the US, and which is why the BNP says,
[23:10] Speaker 3: don't club US as part of this entire Jamath BNP combine,
[23:15] Speaker 3: that's because they want to look liberal, they want to
[23:18] Speaker 3: look inclusive. They are having trouble seeing what the Jamath
[23:22] Speaker 3: is doing. They are distancing themselves from the Jamath. But
[23:25] Speaker 3: in the long run, now when China turns around and says, well,
[23:30] Speaker 3: what's happening, then they'll have to again recalibrate and see
[23:35] Speaker 3: whether if they want to so.
[23:39] Speaker 1: Then they won't be selling the island to the US.
[23:42] Speaker 3: No, no, they're selling. But even if they allow a
[23:46] Speaker 3: US naval base, it to be a huge thing, and
[23:50] Speaker 3: I don't think China is going to let that happen
[23:53] Speaker 3: very easily. It's also and I don't think Bangladesh right now,
[23:56] Speaker 3: even BNP, after so much of emphasis is by she Casina.
[24:01] Speaker 3: That is because of Saint Martin's. It's because of Saint
[24:03] Speaker 3: Martin's that BNP will have the political clout to make
[24:06] Speaker 3: that move.
[24:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you're seeing Pakistan.
[24:09] Speaker 2: What happened, Like Imran Khan was in power and he
[24:12] Speaker 2: did not so called succumb to the USS so called interests.
[24:17] Speaker 1: He was ousted. Then Sheik Hasina did not pay heed,
[24:21] Speaker 1: so she.
[24:21] Speaker 3: Was It's interesting that you're saying this because you know,
[24:24] Speaker 3: Iran Khan also named Donald lou in the letter that
[24:28] Speaker 3: was sent by the officer by one officer to the
[24:34] Speaker 3: Pakistani ambassador in DC. It was Donald Lou's letter that
[24:38] Speaker 3: he was alleging that the officer was Donald Loue and
[24:44] Speaker 3: he was the one who sent that letter so on
[24:46] Speaker 3: and so forth.
[24:47] Speaker 2: So yeah, wow, that's that's really interesting. I mean, we're
[24:51] Speaker 2: not concluding anything, but these are the facts if you
[24:54] Speaker 2: look at the chronology, like Githa pointed out. Uh So,
[24:58] Speaker 2: moving on from this Githa, let's also explore this factor
[25:01] Speaker 2: because there's another podcast that we do with Rachighafa and
[25:05] Speaker 2: in his Nothing but the True, Nothing but the Truia
[25:09] Speaker 2: in Is show, he dealt with the you know, with
[25:12] Speaker 2: India's neighborhood policy and how it's feeling. And I thought
[25:16] Speaker 2: that I should also ask you this because you you
[25:19] Speaker 2: take may and Maa, you take Nepal, Sri Lanka of course,
[25:23] Speaker 2: you know, to the Maldives Ofakistan and it genuinely feels that,
[25:29] Speaker 2: you know, it seems that the neighborhood policy is failing.
[25:33] Speaker 2: So how does India then reinvent and this neighborhood policy,
[25:37] Speaker 2: I mean neighborhood first policy.
[25:39] Speaker 1: How does India do that?
[25:40] Speaker 3: Even as we speak, there are two important visits that
[25:43] Speaker 3: took place, the Maldives where Jesshunker was the External First
[25:46] Speaker 3: Minister of India and Nepal where Victim Isty was the
[25:51] Speaker 3: Foreign Secretary of India. The new Foreign Secretary of India
[25:54] Speaker 3: looking at Bangladesh, I think they've realized that it is
[25:57] Speaker 3: very important that they go to these places and re engage,
[26:03] Speaker 3: especially the Maldis which has been so anti India. But
[26:08] Speaker 3: when it comes to financial, health assistance, development work, India
[26:13] Speaker 3: is a better partner definitely. Sri Lanka is an example.
[26:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, right in the podcast, he has spoken to a
[26:20] Speaker 2: lot many experts and they said that one of them
[26:22] Speaker 2: suggested that India should just cote aggressive and a massive
[26:27] Speaker 2: push towards economic integration with its neighbors and a willingness
[26:31] Speaker 2: to spend big bucks as China did with bre can actually.
[26:36] Speaker 3: Everybody says that that if you really want to be
[26:41] Speaker 3: a world leader wish for guru that you want to be,
[26:44] Speaker 3: you should be willing to invest not just political capital,
[26:50] Speaker 3: economic capital as well. And in India's case, I think
[26:54] Speaker 3: neither were being done very very aggressively. Nor was there
[26:59] Speaker 3: a lot of economic capital being invested. Some yes, but
[27:03] Speaker 3: not very aggressively, especially when you know you're looking at
[27:06] Speaker 3: conflict situations, but more so political capital as well.
[27:11] Speaker 2: So you think China, I mean that should just replicate
[27:14] Speaker 2: China's playbook and work towards.
[27:17] Speaker 3: I don't think so, because China's playbook is not something
[27:21] Speaker 3: to be held up and said let's emulate, not a
[27:27] Speaker 3: book to follow. It's a book which has its yes,
[27:31] Speaker 3: because it is it is exploitative, and India is not exploitative.
[27:35] Speaker 3: I'm saying, have a playbook on how how China does it,
[27:40] Speaker 3: but not what China does the what has to be
[27:43] Speaker 3: your own engaging strategically, seeing thinking far ahead, not just
[27:49] Speaker 3: your five year electoral term, far ahead into how to
[27:53] Speaker 3: be entrenched in the neighborhood is something that India should
[27:57] Speaker 3: be looking at and should.
[27:58] Speaker 1: Be doing right.
[28:00] Speaker 2: So, speaking of India, Ghita, and that's how we end
[28:03] Speaker 2: this discussion, you know, because last time we spoke about
[28:06] Speaker 2: how India shouldn't meddle in its neighbors or beat any
[28:11] Speaker 2: other countries in tonal affairs and what exactly is internal
[28:13] Speaker 2: affair because there's no clear cut demarcation, right, So, but
[28:17] Speaker 2: then I just thought that it's important to circle back
[28:20] Speaker 2: to India in the sense that, you know, trying to
[28:23] Speaker 2: understand how has this entire thing panned out for us?
[28:27] Speaker 1: She has Ina right now.
[28:29] Speaker 2: Is getting somewhat you know, everybody's sympathy, and perhaps rightly
[28:33] Speaker 2: so as well. Still, I feel that we cannot deny
[28:36] Speaker 2: the fact, you know, like you said that she was
[28:39] Speaker 2: becoming increasingly an autocratic leader. People are saying that, Okay,
[28:43] Speaker 2: she came by elections, I mean, she was elected, so
[28:46] Speaker 2: we can't say that, you know.
[28:47] Speaker 3: She elected because the entire opposition boy cottage. She did
[28:50] Speaker 3: not have an interim government in place to conduct the fair,
[28:53] Speaker 3: free and fair elections. No.
[28:55] Speaker 2: Actually, I remember somebody was saying that, you know, look
[28:58] Speaker 2: at Pakistan, Ptiver was you know, banned, but then all
[29:03] Speaker 2: the independents they fought and they still they won.
[29:06] Speaker 3: So that was an interim government. They did do that
[29:09] Speaker 3: because that's how they carry or conduct elections. Right, So
[29:15] Speaker 3: the government in place, like in India, the government in
[29:17] Speaker 3: place conducts the elections, right, that's the norm. But in
[29:20] Speaker 3: Pakistan and Bangladesh, once the term is over, they have
[29:24] Speaker 3: to form an interim government of independent people, thinkers, writers,
[29:32] Speaker 3: I mean, whoever is very important in the political spectrum,
[29:36] Speaker 3: but it is not part of any politics or a
[29:39] Speaker 3: political party. They then form an interim government like in Pakistan.
[29:44] Speaker 3: I remember n Najim's st. Najim Sati, who is a
[29:49] Speaker 3: renowned journalist, also held are headed in interim government. So
[29:54] Speaker 3: they should have done that and then conducted elections. She
[29:57] Speaker 3: didn't do that twice or thrice over.
[29:59] Speaker 1: So yeah, that's what I mean.
[30:02] Speaker 2: But then the concern is here is that elections were
[30:05] Speaker 2: you know, sort of not free and fair, sort of ranked.
[30:08] Speaker 2: The opposition leaders for jailed protests were clammed down using
[30:11] Speaker 2: violent methods. There was a lot of there were a
[30:14] Speaker 2: lot of things that were going wrong, but India never
[30:19] Speaker 2: raised those concerns about these developments. If it did so, also, Gita,
[30:25] Speaker 2: we did not hear.
[30:25] Speaker 3: See they officially very plainly said that we hope for peaceful,
[30:30] Speaker 3: free and fair elections in Bangladesh, but they never criticized
[30:33] Speaker 3: Sha Casina because Anna Shakosina is very important of us,
[30:37] Speaker 3: very important for India. Sometimes you also look at your
[30:40] Speaker 3: own strategic interests, But then how will you ever be
[30:44] Speaker 3: a larger country if you don't realize the mistakes that
[30:46] Speaker 3: your neighbor is making, even if that neighbors a very
[30:49] Speaker 3: important one to say, if you want to sit in
[30:51] Speaker 3: that chair for a longer period, then you need to
[30:54] Speaker 3: mend your way. So your government needs to mend its pace.
[30:58] Speaker 3: And that criticism, in so many words, did not come
[31:01] Speaker 3: from India. No, Yeah, definitely, and maybe that's why the
[31:05] Speaker 3: first place, when she had a very short notice to
[31:08] Speaker 3: leave and no other country was willing to allow her
[31:12] Speaker 3: plane in, she landed in Teli and she's been here
[31:17] Speaker 3: in Ghazebad at the Hindan Air Base ever since, waiting
[31:23] Speaker 3: for maybe clearances. Although her son says she has not
[31:26] Speaker 3: sought asylum anywhere. They're strategizing and planning, Yeah, should they
[31:31] Speaker 3: around selections. Will she Casina go back? I mean her
[31:34] Speaker 3: son had said earlier no, but the letter says yes.
[31:37] Speaker 3: And now the son also says that she will go back,
[31:40] Speaker 3: So I don't know. Confusing signals from Avami League right now,
[31:44] Speaker 3: I think they need to strategize and then plan their
[31:48] Speaker 3: return because when elections are held, Awami League is not
[31:52] Speaker 3: a banned political party. They are going to contest and
[31:55] Speaker 3: their entire vote bank is not completely has not completely
[31:59] Speaker 3: been destroyed. She does have a vote bank, So let's see.
[32:04] Speaker 1: No coming to India.
[32:05] Speaker 2: Like what I was asking Eita that now the situation
[32:07] Speaker 2: is such that Hassina is gone and Banglades Hindus Bangladesh
[32:12] Speaker 2: Hindus are pretty much in danger. So in hindsight we must,
[32:17] Speaker 2: I mean, how should we assess this situation? Because do
[32:20] Speaker 2: you think if India had intervened at the right time
[32:23] Speaker 2: and convinced shakh Hasina to adopt more, you know, democratic
[32:28] Speaker 2: methods in dealing with protesters, the situation wouldn't have come
[32:32] Speaker 2: to certain things.
[32:34] Speaker 3: After a point, it had taken a political turn and
[32:37] Speaker 3: the demand no longer was about Kota, which means that
[32:41] Speaker 3: the issue for which the protests were taking place was
[32:43] Speaker 3: anywhay over. It had become a demand that if this
[32:47] Speaker 3: is what she's going to do, then we don't want
[32:49] Speaker 3: an autocratic leader. And the demand was from a nine
[32:53] Speaker 3: point agenda, which is what the conversation and negotiations were
[32:57] Speaker 3: between shake Hasina and the student body. It became a
[33:02] Speaker 3: single point agender that resign stepped down, and after stepping down,
[33:08] Speaker 3: it would have been impossible for her to stay on.
[33:12] Speaker 3: But the breach of gunnahaven Yea and what they did
[33:17] Speaker 3: clearly spells out how and most of them over there
[33:21] Speaker 3: were not students. Yeah right, It just spells out how
[33:25] Speaker 3: political things had become and how untenable it was for
[33:29] Speaker 3: Shakersina to continue. And I don't think there was any quick,
[33:33] Speaker 3: fixed solution that India could have provided at a time
[33:37] Speaker 3: when there was growing distrust, mistrust of the administration and
[33:41] Speaker 3: therefore in certain quarters of India too, there was an
[33:45] Speaker 3: India out campaign that BNP of course, and yes it
[33:49] Speaker 3: did catch.
[33:50] Speaker 1: That should have been like an alarming thing.
[33:52] Speaker 3: It was that it was so then India was alarmed. Then.
[33:56] Speaker 1: Granted that, you know, India may have talked.
[33:58] Speaker 3: To me and they were I just don't know whether
[34:01] Speaker 3: if they handled the best day that they should.
[34:04] Speaker 2: I mean, if you have, I mean, you know, you
[34:07] Speaker 2: may have talked to Sheik Assina behind closed doors, but
[34:10] Speaker 2: expressed about everything you know that is concerning India, whatever
[34:14] Speaker 2: is happening. But when, for example, the US, you know,
[34:18] Speaker 2: it is, if the US is concerned about happenings in
[34:21] Speaker 2: other countries, it holds, you know, press conferences and lets
[34:25] Speaker 2: people know, the media know that.
[34:28] Speaker 3: They have a daily briefing, so the questions are asked
[34:31] Speaker 3: there when we have a briefing, questions were asked and
[34:33] Speaker 3: the same was said that India wishes for a free,
[34:37] Speaker 3: fair elections to be held in Bangladesh and so forth.
[34:40] Speaker 3: But internally they I think they were in touch with
[34:43] Speaker 3: us also on on some breathing space for she Casina,
[34:47] Speaker 3: but not as much. And I don't know whether if
[34:50] Speaker 3: they knew exactly how bad things were. I do think
[34:55] Speaker 3: that things took an ugly turn, and like in them
[34:59] Speaker 3: all leaves off of that matter, in Afghanistan, the intelligence
[35:06] Speaker 3: to a certain extent knew what was happening, but how
[35:10] Speaker 3: and how fast it would take a turn where Shikasina
[35:14] Speaker 3: has to leave. I think that was a miss yeah right.
[35:19] Speaker 3: I don't know if you'd want to call it in
[35:20] Speaker 3: tell failure, but yeah, yeah, something where India now has
[35:24] Speaker 3: to introspect on how it wants to deal with its
[35:27] Speaker 3: neighborhood exactly because many of them are not pro India
[35:30] Speaker 3: right now, and that certainly is not good for India.
[35:33] Speaker 3: I mean, let's forget about the government. Governments come and go,
[35:37] Speaker 3: but for Hindia it's not.
[35:38] Speaker 2: Good for sure anyway, the promise he runs and now
[35:42] Speaker 2: continuum like you.
[35:43] Speaker 3: So they say, But now I'm seeing a lot change
[35:46] Speaker 3: there has been. There have been quite a few shifts
[35:49] Speaker 3: in how India has been conducting itself and how the
[35:54] Speaker 3: continuity is in knowing exactly who to engage but how to.
[36:00] Speaker 3: I think that playbook has changed and they need to
[36:03] Speaker 3: or changed or needs to be modified. Okay, because this
[36:07] Speaker 3: entire playbook of engaging Shaikh Hasina irrespective didn't work for.
[36:11] Speaker 1: India, very true, so they should.
[36:13] Speaker 3: Have so yes, strategizing how what China does? How right?
[36:18] Speaker 3: But China had both BNP and shake Asina, so they
[36:23] Speaker 3: were better placed.
[36:24] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. I think we'll end on that note.
[36:28] Speaker 2: And neighborhood policy of course, you know how India is
[36:31] Speaker 2: going to tackle that because we have a government that
[36:34] Speaker 2: will stay for the next five years at least, and
[36:37] Speaker 2: so we'll have to see how that engagement will happen.
[36:40] Speaker 2: And for Bangladesh, I think there's still unrest going on
[36:44] Speaker 2: in the atrocities is definitely contendable. But how Muhammed Unus
[36:50] Speaker 2: is going to engage that and prioritize to ensure.
[36:54] Speaker 1: You know, peace in Bangladesh.
[36:56] Speaker 3: I think that's he's actually quite upset and disturbed because
[37:00] Speaker 3: I don't think he anticipated such kind of violence. There
[37:04] Speaker 3: would have been violence, but such kind of violence, and
[37:08] Speaker 3: he's been calling for calm. It's not happening, So let's see.
[37:12] Speaker 3: Let's see Anna, what really happens. We'll keep thratckening the story.
[37:15] Speaker 3: It's a big story, so we'll keep coming back to
[37:17] Speaker 3: you as in when there are developments and if there's
[37:20] Speaker 3: a big story to tell.
[37:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, like we always do. And keep listening to
[37:25] Speaker 2: Geita's world and keep tuning in. We read all your messages.
[37:29] Speaker 2: The common section is you know, flooded, and we love that,
[37:33] Speaker 2: so keep writing to us. Also, we have a number
[37:37] Speaker 2: which is eighty five, double eight nine, double six, double
[37:39] Speaker 2: line six, and there's an email idea which is spots
[37:42] Speaker 2: at a rate in here today dot com. This is
[37:44] Speaker 2: the one hundredth episode and we are going to start
[37:48] Speaker 2: a different journey.
[37:48] Speaker 3: Together, absolutely, and we'll celebrate the one hundreds together. Thank
[37:53] Speaker 3: you so much for watching.
[37:54] Speaker 1: Thank you to

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