# Imran Khan: Saviour Of Democracy Or Frankenstein's Monster?| Geeta's World Ep 44

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 16 May 2023, 1 h 00 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53891316/16_may_23_geetas_workd_ep_44_mix_128.mp3

The recent arrest of Pakistan’s former Prime Minister Imran Khan has only added to the already dire situation. In response, supporters of his political party PTI targeted the army and even attempted to storm the Army Headquarters in Rawalpindi. But we’ve often heard that Pakistan’s economy remains in turmoil. So why hasn’t this sentiment against the Army developed earlier in Pakistan? And several key commanders are believed to have advised General Asim against a showdown with Imran Khan. why is it that a faction within the army counsel against confronting Imran Khan? And with what has ensued, what’s next for Imran Khan?

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. The recent arrest of Pakistan's former Prime Minister Imran
[0:07] Khan has only added to the already dire situation in the country. In response,
[0:12] allegedly, supporters of his political party PTI targeted the army and even attempted
[0:18] to storm the army headquarters in Rabul Pindi. But we have often heard that
[0:23] Pakistan's economy is in Turmoid, So why hasn't this sentiment against the army developed
[0:28] earlier? In Pakistan? People have resisted, but because the political leadership is
[0:33] always suppressed and Pakistani army was or managed to do. That is the reason
[0:37] why you didn't see the kind of movement that we're seeing today. And several
[0:42] key commanders are believed to have advised General Arson against a showdown with Imran Khan.
[0:48] Why is it that a faction within the Army council against confronting Khan.
[0:52] Not everybody is siding with Asimonir. There are a lot of army officers and
[0:58] police officers who's families our PTI supporters. Hello, I'm anna Prodeshioni with India
[1:06] to Day TV's foreign affairs editor Geta Mohan Where with Geta's astute and incisive crasp
[1:11] of world affairs. We delve into all that is urgent and pressing in world
[1:17] politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global ambitions of
[1:23] being a Vishwa Guru. Let's unravel Geta's world. So well, this is
[1:30] the forty fourth episode of Geta's World, and Geta is joining me via zoom
[1:37] this time. Hi Geta, Hi, Hi Anna, how are you?
[1:41] How are things going? Very very hectic? Pakistan is keeping us all busy.
[1:46] But there's a lot of other news also that we've been covering, including
[1:51] the fact that there was some reports that came in of Taliban having appointed shas
[1:57] the affairs in India. Yes, despite the fact that we've not recognized the
[2:01] Taliban government. Then they've gone embassy came out and said, well that's not
[2:05] correct. There is no Charles. There's one diplomat. Maybe he's turned,
[2:08] you know, to the other side, and he's spreading this information so on
[2:12] and so forth, and he's not in charge. That buried Mamanzai, who's
[2:16] the ambassador. I was the ambassador. When Kabulfeld continues to remain the envoy
[2:22] so that was quite an interesting true. True, it is actually an interesting
[2:25] way. And in fact Turkey that is also one of the y Yes,
[2:30] he will discuss Turkey elections as well. And Thailand also threw up another very
[2:38] interesting result. So you know a lot of them, I suppose, looking
[2:44] away from military regimes and unta so on and so forth. But a very
[2:51] interesting report that came out yesterday was the annual State Department Report on Religious Freedom
[2:59] and as was expected, we know that there will be a strong reaction from
[3:02] India. But India, China, Russia certainly didn't fare very well. Pakistan,
[3:08] of course not we don't compare ourselves in that in that category. Of
[3:13] course we're discussing Pakistan now, but the situation is very different. But for
[3:16] India, and for the first time we saw anna that the number of references
[3:22] to BJP and BGP governments in various states has increased in this report. So
[3:28] it's a very extensive report on persecution of minorities and we are way to response
[3:36] from the Indian government. There certainly will be rejection of the report and the
[3:39] fact that you know, it's, according to them, baseless and biased.
[3:46] For our listeners convenience, I'll just add the link to this report in our
[3:51] description of this particular episode so that they can also have a look at it.
[3:55] And of course this time we are focusing on Pakistan because last week I
[4:00] remember, you know, being in the newsroom. I think it was all
[4:01] about Imran Khan, all about whatever is ensuing in our neighborhood and of course
[4:09] internal politics as well. I mean in India the Carnatic elections, that was
[4:14] something that actually dominated the new space. But here in this episode we'll be
[4:18] discussing Pakistan and a little bit of background geta before we jump into our conversation
[4:26] on it. And uh, like you mentioned, I think Pakistan, you
[4:30] know, it is facing a sort of a critical juncture in this in its
[4:35] history, you know, as it grapples with numerous challenges, and last week
[4:41] it came into a forefront after the arrest of a former prime minister and leader
[4:47] of PTI. This has only added to the already dire situation in the country
[4:55] and in fact, in an unprecedented move supporters of the political party, they
[5:00] targeted the army and even attempt attempted to storm the army headquarters in Rawalpindi.
[5:08] Now, as far as the latest update Skogeta. Imran Khan has renewed the
[5:13] call for protests and alleged that over seven thousand members of his party, the
[5:18] PTI, have been illegally detained in the protest that took over the nation over
[5:24] his arrest. In fact, he has also accused agency men of partaking in
[5:30] mayhem and shooting and blaming Khan's PTI party for it. Now, as a
[5:34] matter of fact, we all know that you know, Pakistan's history has been
[5:39] marked by military interventions in politics, with the army orchestrating three coups and effectively
[5:46] ruling the country for over three decades now. Despite the transition to a civilian
[5:50] government, the military's influence and rule in politics remained significant. So based on
[5:58] this and focusing on the event that unfolded, we will base our discussion on
[6:04] understanding what this violent protest or sort of an uprising that we see could have
[6:11] an impact on the country's politics, and understand what's the seeming rift in the
[6:16] Pakistan Army and of course what is next for Imran Khan. So these are
[6:20] the vital questions that will address in the due course of this conversation. So
[6:27] gether. Let's begin by you know. First addressing what the country witnessed when
[6:32] Imran Khan was arrested, rather I would say dramatically arrested. I think some
[6:38] may find it hilarious and some may find it, you know, amusing.
[6:42] As those visuals of rioters stealing you know, peacocks and frozen strawberries from Lahore
[6:49] Commander Lieutenant General Faias Ghanese home surfaced and the protester when they were protesting,
[6:58] they said that these these were brought with the people's money and we are just
[7:03] taking back what was stolen from us. Now, if we look at this
[7:09] in a wider and you know, a diverse picture, these visuals, according
[7:14] to me, I am saying that they were kind of symbolic of a crumbling
[7:17] nation, you know, of a wider breakdown of the system. How do
[7:21] you read this, cater m. You're absolutely right that, yes, there
[7:27] is a major riff that you're seeing a widening gap in how the dispensation and
[7:33] I'm seeing dispensation because I'll just explained to you why is viewing the situation and
[7:39] how the people are viewing the dispensation, which is the powers that be now
[7:45] in you just said and you spoke about the coup's military dictatorships and the transition
[7:53] into civilian administration with the military holding quite a bit of sway when it comes
[7:59] to this making in Pakistan, But if you look at the real picture,
[8:03] the Pakistani government or the powers power never saw a smooth transition into civilian So
[8:11] it is Pakistan is uniquely positioned as one of those countries which has a civilian
[8:18] military government. So when in a government or in a system, the military
[8:24] takes control of foreign and defense and there is the rest of the decisions are
[8:30] left for the civilian government of there is very little room to maneuver. And
[8:35] even within that system, when appointments, decisions, policies are influenced by the
[8:41] military, then you cannot call it a transition at all. What we have
[8:46] seen actually is the government in Pakistan uniquely again I'm repeating myself, uniquely positioned
[8:54] war where the military has a very important role to play. The reason why
[9:01] you see most of the countries India does not do that as the policy India
[9:07] says we will only engage with the civilian government of a country. But if
[9:11] you see every other country, they have moved, they have started engaging the
[9:15] military more than the civilian government. The civilian government only goes to Saudi Arabia
[9:20] or the United States of America to discuss some of the issues that lie within
[9:26] the ambit of financing kind of to get it tize. How to better tize
[9:33] financial crisis is something that they have to handle and tackle. The military guys
[9:37] will not do that because they're more bothered with the bigger picture of how to
[9:41] get the money in for themselves and for their set up. But when it
[9:46] comes to defense and foreign policy, you will see them meet and engage the
[9:50] army chiefs, which is which is unheard of in any other setup democratic setup.
[9:56] So while Pakistan has counted amongst the democracies, it is not it is
[10:01] not a democracy. There might be a civilian government, there might be elected
[10:07] through elections, but if there is a power above then then then and if
[10:13] if prime ministers can be ousted the way they have been, whether it has
[10:18] been as a bhutto Nava Sharif or for that Mattame Brankhan, now um,
[10:24] there is an intrinsic problem within the entire country. Now again, there are
[10:28] a lot of people who say that unprecedented, this has never been seen before.
[10:33] Of course it has been seen before. We have seen people raise their
[10:37] voices against a military caused a military dispensation, but not like this, not
[10:45] like there is a there is a certain shift um. We have seen protests,
[10:50] but we have not seen the army headquarter being breached. We have not
[10:56] seen the GHQ and Ralph being breached. Let's list out the places that were
[11:03] breached by the people of Pakistan. You can say PTI workers, but there
[11:07] were people of Pakistan, the citizens exactly. HQ Raoul Pindi Frontier Core Headquarters
[11:15] that is in Killa Bala, Hassar Pishower, Radio Pakistan, Raoul Pindi Core
[11:20] Commander's residence in Lahowk and Tournament which actually was the original house of a Mahamadli
[11:26] Jinna, which again has become a huge thing because it is Jinna's residence that
[11:31] has been vandalised. I SI Office Lahore office, fass Labad, Jinna House,
[11:39] Lahore. This is the Jinna house. Are we talking about PF based
[11:45] Mmm. That is Alamavali burning of Angel jet, the child dummy jets that
[11:54] you see outside the PF outside Air Force basis. That entire jet was burned
[11:58] down at PF based Pakistan Effort based in Miawali. So you're looking at a
[12:05] list of destruction of army properties, breaching of the building and the gates people
[12:13] entering these. There is unseen, unheard, never happened before. The last
[12:18] time that there was a breach in ghu Alpindi was a terrorist attack. I've
[12:24] listed out the breach and the and the attacks on army property and assets during
[12:30] these rights. This has never happened before in any of the earlier protests.
[12:33] Again, of course, of course, I mean protest has happened, but
[12:37] this kind of vandalism and breaching into the army headquarters, I think this has
[12:41] never happened before, like you mentioned, yeah, but I was also there's
[12:46] another aspect to it that you know, um as Pakistan as a country.
[12:48] And I remember discussing this in one of the earlier episodes as well, when
[12:52] you know, the economy and the IMF bailout wasn't the news, and so
[12:58] we have seen Pakistan as a country, you know whose economy isn't a turmoil,
[13:03] isn't patters, There's high inflation, unemployment is sort of pushing young men
[13:09] into towards extremism. And you said these were not just PTA supporters, they
[13:15] were the people of Pakistan If we specifically talk about economy, you know,
[13:20] either as Indians, we have often heard that Pakistan's economy remains in turmoil because
[13:26] their deep state or the army administration is sort of I mean, it is
[13:31] so fixated on diverting funds towards proxy terrorism and for fermenting trouble you know in
[13:39] the Kashmir Valley, that they would never focus on nation building. So why
[13:43] hasn't this sentiment among the people and against the army developed earlier in Pakistan?
[13:50] Or would you say that their people have always known it that you know,
[13:54] army is to be questioned, But it's the media that keeps stoking this anti
[14:01] Indian narrative and doesn't let the real issues come to the four I mean,
[14:05] I'm just asking that why did this anger, this sort of outrage not emit
[14:09] when the other issues were in the forefront, when the economy wasn't tatters.
[14:15] Is it that you know a nation that you know, like a political emergency
[14:18] supersedes everything. It was just Imran Khan's arrest was the final neal in the
[14:24] coffin for this sort of angst to come out. Well, yes, absolutely,
[14:28] you see, there have been questions in the past. When Miyazab that
[14:33] is Navasheri questioned the establishment, he was asked it and he did leave.
[14:41] He took exile and went abroad and stayed there. There was a huge deal
[14:46] between my sheriff and the Saudi Arabian administration where Saudi Arabas said he should be
[14:50] at least given exile rather than incarcerate him and make him you know, bland
[14:56] wish in jail, in prison, and the comp promise deal took place.
[15:01] So over here if you see the differences that Imran Khan is not willing to
[15:05] compromise. This is the creation of the Pakistani Army. Now it has become
[15:09] a Frankenstein's monster, as many say, for the Pakistani Army. He was
[15:16] created to take down the national parties who the army did not want in the
[15:22] fray anymore, which is PPP and PMLN. And they were they were,
[15:26] they were, and Imran Khan was a was a great option because they thought
[15:31] he'd always be under them till he found wings and till he found his mind
[15:39] of his own where he was deciding on things, which was not going down
[15:41] well with the mayor, with the army and with the Pakistani armies allies.
[15:48] And when I said Pakistani Army's allies, because it's not always Pakistan's allies.
[15:54] They engage a lot with the military. There was a letter that Donald lou
[15:58] and he's named him there the senior diplomat wrote very clearly specifically demanding that Imran
[16:04] can't be removed. And Imran Khan held a press conference. He first said
[16:10] that you know a country, then he by mistakes, named the United States
[16:14] of America. Then he would saying no, I meant one country, but
[16:17] by then everybody knew that it's the US that he's talking about. Then they
[16:21] started asking who wrote the letter, and in uh, you know, a
[16:26] press conference a few days later, he actually went ahead and name because there
[16:30] was so much pressure, named Donald Lou. And this was all at a
[16:33] time in Pakistan and Imran Khan had decided to go to Russia, much to
[16:38] the chagrin of the u ust US administration. They did not want him to
[16:45] travel. They did not they do not want Pakistan building ties with Russia,
[16:52] and that did not go down well with well well for Imran Khan. He
[16:56] does say in in all of his earlier press conferences and interactions, if you
[17:02] hear him. He does say that my travel to Russia was one of the
[17:04] major reasons why the military no longer wanted me. But again, remember a
[17:11] lot of people call him the Frankenstein's monster, and that again you know a
[17:15] man who's actually taken on the army. He has. Indeed, he has
[17:18] been naming the army chief like no other no other politician has ever done.
[17:23] He has named people who has threatened him, who was part of the establishment,
[17:29] never been done before, naming and shaming park army officers. So yes,
[17:33] now he's invited trouble with the military court. Now that will sit and
[17:38] there could be a lot of trouble because if he's out of the abbit of
[17:41] the judiciary in terms of civilian courts and goes into the military courts, then
[17:47] the game changes. Then the courts can't grant him veil. It does not
[17:52] work in a military court. The rules are very different under the Army Act,
[17:56] so he will be treated very differently. If he's incarcerated, there is
[18:00] going to be no bail or appeal, even if he appears to the Supreme
[18:06] Court, it's going to be very different, and there has to be a
[18:07] change in the entire political set up for him, which is not going to
[18:11] happen because the p PPPML and JUI, the PDM alliance now is backed by
[18:18] the military establishment and they're backing the military establishment, so both are working for
[18:23] each other. But what is interesting is that these are the same parties that
[18:29] the army used Imran Khan to bring them down, to take them down,
[18:34] and Nava Sharif is sitting in London thanks to Imran Khan and the Pakokkan establishment.
[18:41] Whether if it is the corruption cases or whatever, but the fact is
[18:45] that when you when you want to act, you act, and they acted
[18:48] because they wanted to act against Nava Sharif and he was sitting in London.
[18:53] And Imran Khan, for all the people who say that he's taking on the
[18:59] army, for the first part of this entire controversy, which started some time
[19:03] ago, much before what we're seeing right now or even the case hearing began
[19:07] when he was actually removed from office. Even before that what was happening,
[19:14] Imran Khan did not want to cut ties with the army. In fact,
[19:18] he tried to meet the Army chief. He sought meetings from all the leader
[19:22] military leadership and wanted to convey to them that you work with me, we
[19:27] will find a middle ground, we'll find solutions, don't throw me out and
[19:32] get these exactly. And then when it did not work, he was thrown
[19:38] out. Then he started taking on the army, maybe because of out of
[19:42] convenience, or for that matter, to take on the army because they did
[19:47] wrong by him, whatever the cause and reason be. Today Imran Khan is
[19:53] the face of this resistance. People might not like him, like him,
[19:59] hate him, but they cannot change the fact that if there is an inch
[20:03] of movement towards real democracy in Pakistan, the man who will will go down
[20:10] in the history books is going to be Imran Khan, much to the much
[20:15] to the disappointment of so many would say that he does not have brains,
[20:19] he does not do this, He's not a strategious he's not even a good
[20:22] politician. Look where he took the country to when it comes to the economy,
[20:27] so on and so forth. But at the end of the day,
[20:30] we're talking about structural changes Anna and those structural changes, if they come about,
[20:36] then it is going to be the credit will go to Imran Khan.
[20:41] But I'm not an optimist here it's the Pakistani army and at the end of
[20:45] the day, the army will prevail. Now, putting an the Army act
[20:51] and taking him, dragging him to the military court in itself is an example,
[20:56] and they will make an example of Imran Khan if they have it their
[21:00] way. On the ground, it doesn't seem like they're going to have it
[21:03] their way. Their resistance is stuff. PTI supporters, if I make a
[21:07] comparison, are like are like our supporters in India. India. They are
[21:14] strong, they are a very strong force. They mobilize very well and they
[21:21] take to the streets, unlike our national parties where the supporters will not take
[21:25] to the streets. By hair. Both sells the hair. You know,
[21:29] our workers don't don't bother about bothers, nor do PTI workers. Yes,
[21:33] yes, and you said something about Imrankhan that you know much to the disappointment.
[21:38] But his name will go down the history and and the fact that he
[21:41] has been blamed for like during his rule as a prime minister. Is the
[21:48] economy of the country gone down. I'll come to that. But before that,
[21:52] I was asking in the previous question that, um, you know Imrankan.
[21:56] Yes, I know he's the face and everything in the face of resistance.
[22:00] But I'm talking about the people of Pakistan that this kind of anger against
[22:06] the army. Why didn't it a surface when because, like you said that,
[22:11] it's not a democratic country. You know, the military is in the
[22:15] power. The power actually is in the reigns of the military. So why
[22:22] didn't this anger, this sort of outrage not emit when the economy wasn't tatters
[22:27] something like there's some sort of political emergency, Why does it superseded everything?
[22:33] I mean, there were supporters who were saying that we are fighting for Imran
[22:37] Khan and if Allah wills, we will die for him. So this kind
[22:41] of allegiance towards one political leader, Okay, yes, I understand that he
[22:45] has that history to it, history to his name, But in terms of
[22:49] the people of Pakistan, this sentiment against the army, did it develop earlier
[22:56] in Pakistan as well? And did they in any kind show this resistance of
[23:03] this sentiment of resistance towards the army, Well, they always have. There
[23:07] always has been resistance and even within the political leadership. Look at Beneze Bhutto
[23:12] and look at how look at the assassinations and the hanging to death her father
[23:18] Zu. So there have there have been resistance in the past as well instances
[23:23] of resistance, but then it always comes down to how the Pakistani army quells
[23:30] the protests, how they ensure that the that the protests are suppressed and that
[23:37] the people the right message by the hanging of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto or the sending
[23:44] uh Nabashaive into exile, benezeut into exile her coming back in two dates.
[23:48] We do not know what really happened assassination of Beneze Bhutto with with uh You
[23:56] know, investigations not leading to exactly who the perpetrators were or who was behind
[24:03] that assassination. They've named terrorists and that's that to so many leaders, leaders
[24:10] getting killed and protests being suppressed. So the Pakistani army is always managed to
[24:18] prevail. How they do it is by hook or by crook, but at
[24:22] the end of the day they do prevail. Also, you ask Anna,
[24:25] why is it that there has been way less resistance of was there was not
[24:29] not people have resisted, but because the political leadership is always suppressed and Pakistani
[24:34] army was or managed to do. That is the reason why you didn't see
[24:40] the kind of movement that we're seeing today. Also, one very important thing
[24:45] that people do not pay attention to is what happened during partition, And what
[24:52] happened during partition was and you have to keep it in perspective with the total
[24:57] population of the time in uh in nineteen forty seven, when India and Pakistan
[25:04] were divided, then about over two and a half black of the army personnel
[25:11] stayed on in India and about one and a half close to a one and
[25:15] a half Black army personnel moved to Pakistan. Right, yes, two and
[25:19] a half one and a half looks like India had a bigger chunk, but
[25:23] compared it to the population, compared it to the population of Pakistan and the
[25:29] population in size of India, India was a really larger country with a huge
[25:33] population and Pakistan was a way smaller country with a much smaller population, so
[25:41] proportionate, proportionately, they had larger number of of the army. Pakistan had
[25:49] about forty percent of the total British Indian Army oh as compared to the so
[25:56] it was a forty sixty distribution. Yeah, And in that if you take
[26:00] the population of Bangladesh after the seventies out, then the concentration of the military
[26:08] in Pakistan becomes much higher. Why am I saying this? Which just means
[26:15] that almost every other person in Pakistan is connected to the military somewhere or the
[26:21] other handan mikoehoga senior skoits class, the elite class of Pakistan actually has military
[26:32] everywhere. When you're educated class, not just elite. The educated class has
[26:37] military everywhere it is. It has percolated everywhere in every wing of their family
[26:48] and extended family. Then who's going to raise the voice for those who you
[26:56] know, are at the receiving end of the exploitation. Who's going to raise
[27:02] the voice for the downcrawl or the ones who really need, desperately need a
[27:06] democratic structure. That's the people of Pakistan, the common man. In this
[27:10] entire mix, you will find only a few who have genuinely fought and for
[27:17] the cause of a civilian government, a truly democratic structure in Pakistan. Quite
[27:23] a few of them now are living abroad because they are png in Pakistan.
[27:27] That's persona grata, not welcome anymore in their own homeland. And to continue
[27:33] to fight that battle for democracy for Pakistan outside of Pakistan. Within Pakistan,
[27:38] it would be very difficult to live and try to take on the army over
[27:42] here. This is a unique situation where a man who actually was created or
[27:48] was the creation of the army in this space to become the prime minister.
[27:52] So he was always around, he was always into politics, Imran Khan,
[27:57] but never could make it to this level. Who and ensure that he gets
[28:02] to this level and becomes prime minister? It is the Pakistani establishment. So
[28:07] he if he and when he was not in cahoots with the army, and
[28:12] if you go back to his earlier statements, he actually has said in his
[28:17] interactions abroad and in Pakistan to foreign networks that men in uniform should be confined
[28:23] to the barracks. When they come out of the barracks, that's when we
[28:27] have trouble in the country. That was a statement many many years ago,
[28:32] yes, many years ago. And then he started understanding what is happening and
[28:38] how to really be in power. And then you had that entire movement that
[28:42] Jalza, the Long March to Islamabag which took down Abasharif's government and Imran Khan
[28:49] came to power. It was all orchestrated. He did not was it was
[28:55] not organic. But today what you're seeing is not all orchestrated. Although there's
[29:00] another interesting information that's coming out now Imran Khan claiming that all the cases of
[29:07] riots and vandalism are not the handiwork of Theirs, that is, the Pakistani
[29:15] Army who did it to do him in that they went to the extent of
[29:21] burning their own building because they wanted to. There is no other way because
[29:26] because they any all other charges, the one hundred and twenty one charges and
[29:30] cases that have slapped against Imran Khanana have are in civilian court and Imran Khan
[29:37] had urged the courts to look into his plea to club all those hundred and
[29:41] twenty one cases and hear them together. And for all that I'm seeing from
[29:47] Islamabat High Court, they have been rather kind to Imran Khan on all his
[29:52] demand that please. But the moment there's a riots case under the Army Act
[29:59] which is going to be tried in a military court, the entire dynamics change,
[30:03] which is when Imran Khan comes out and says, well, this is
[30:07] the reason why they in the first place wanted this arson, the riots,
[30:12] and he's putting out his old videos where he's saying bea should take on,
[30:15] which he did in all fairness, he did hold these you know, national
[30:22] addresses where he told his workers to hold peaceful marches, do not riots on
[30:26] and sport. In fact, he also in one of those had actually told
[30:30] them that if you do it, that would be promise they might do it
[30:34] and you know, blame us for it to that extent. And now you're
[30:37] seeing a case where the military courts are going to come into the picture and
[30:42] Imran kind of saying the same thing that if you see they have that they
[30:47] have evidence, they have video evidence to show that the gentlemen or the people
[30:51] who were destroying certain property were not PTI workers in fact their own allegiance to
[30:56] the army, to the army. Yeah, that's that's actually a different,
[31:00] I mean, a very interesting angle to look at. But everything about Pakistan
[31:04] has become very interesting, it is, for sure. And another on another
[31:11] interesting part to it when you said that when Imrand Khan took over as a
[31:18] prime minister, he I mean his four years of his prime ministership, you
[31:22] know, the economy wasn't datters and it came down to a large extent.
[31:26] But on this note, you know, I was reading this really sort of
[31:30] long form report in the caravan, which you know, talked about how the
[31:36] economic crisis which Pakistan is unraveling today actually started from before Imrand Khan came to
[31:44] power. And the sense I got from reading the report was that, as
[31:48] with most Pakistani prime ministers, Khan inherited an economy that was nearing a very
[31:55] serious crisis. The country had barely enough foreign extime, just reserves to cover
[32:00] a month six imports. But even then, Guitar Khan, he was very
[32:05] adamant that he will not go to the IMF, that is International Monetary Fund
[32:09] for a bailout package because of the terms that they impose on countries for loans.
[32:15] And at this time Khan had said that he would rather die by suicide
[32:20] than go to the IMF. So how he addressed the crisis is I think
[32:23] that's very peculiar about a newly elected prime minister. You know, he borrowed
[32:30] money from foreign allies, but also introduced some really harsh measures such as raising
[32:37] interest rates and devaluing the currency, which are really painful things to do,
[32:42] you know, for a popularly elected new leader. Now soon though, the
[32:46] Pakistan Army appointed a finance minister that would listen to them over Imrand Khan.
[32:53] And that's when Pakistan signed on to a six billion dollar IMF program, which
[33:00] only worse in the crisis. So what I could understand is that gata that
[33:05] you know, when you sign on to an IMF program, your government is
[33:08] expected to cut down on public expenditure, which is basically welfare, and they
[33:15] call this austerity measure. And once this program kicked in in July twenty nineteen,
[33:22] interest rates shot up to over thirteen percent and the exchange rate was one
[33:28] sixty Pakistani rupeats to a dollar, which is kind of huge. So I'm
[33:32] just going to pause here a bit. But my question here is that do
[33:37] you think that you know, by not signing on to the IMF program,
[33:42] Imran Khan was on the right path and could have delivered his country from the
[33:46] crisis had the army allowed him to do so. And if yes, then
[33:52] why was the army so impatient and just going to the IMF when they knew
[33:55] that, you know, the program was going to going to read the public
[34:00] suffering like anything. Um, so, very a few, very important points
[34:05] over here, but I'll keep it a little brief. In fact, if
[34:08] we want to, we should actually do a separate UH talk on just Pakistan's
[34:14] economy and how devastating it has been. Actually, yes we have. We
[34:21] did the entire debt trap. Yes, and how they got trapped? Is
[34:23] it under death trap exactly? People should go back to that and listen to
[34:29] what and how Pakistan came to where it is today, how it came to
[34:32] be in such economic trouble. I'd suggest that you put that link also in
[34:40] this talk because it's a very important one. So let me just refer back
[34:45] to what your question was, and then if any if our listeners want a
[34:49] more detailed perspective, they can listen into our earlier podcasts. But what happened
[34:53] was when Imran Khan started taking on the PMLN government. He started with bad,
[35:07] we are not a country that is this week. If I come to
[35:10] power, I will ensure that we no longer have the need to beg.
[35:15] That was his call during elections. That was that. That was his entire
[35:21] manifesto agenda all through the elections that we will not beg if you bring me
[35:28] to power, if you choose me if you vote for me, you're voting
[35:31] for a stronger economy. You're voting for a strong Pakistan and not a Pakistan
[35:38] that begs. So when he went with this begs, he came to power.
[35:43] Any politician can make any promises, and you see how this promises are
[35:46] flouted. Not just there. It's a South Asia phenomenal. In fact it's
[35:51] a global phenomenon, but very particular to South Asia. To make promises on
[35:55] economic grounds, on doors, on how they're going to give this is give
[36:00] that. But when they come and they see their coffers and they see those
[36:04] empty coffers from where nothing is coming, and then they see this country where
[36:07] there is no revenue generation, Anna, then you come to realize where are
[36:13] you going to feed your people from? Where are you going to run this
[36:17] country? From which bank is going to help you? To not just run
[36:24] to international institutions again, like he said, with a begging goal, he
[36:29] wanted to look at better alternatives where he thought that seeking relief from allies would
[36:37] right now be a better option because IMF had become tough. I'll tell you
[36:40] why. I AMF had to come time and we'll come to that. So
[36:45] the so that's why he went to Soudi Arabia. He in fact did a
[36:47] lot of China as well, and they will see the consequences of that in
[36:52] the Speck corridor, which in all the economic crisis. Let me tell you,
[36:58] the Speck project continued without without halting for a day. There is no
[37:05] there was an absolute crisis in the whole of Pakistan. But this entire stretch
[37:13] where China is invested in. China has been very clear that that this error
[37:17] should should, this work should can never be hard. The step, yes,
[37:22] so that's when he started looking at allies. But how much can allies
[37:29] do when you have a political crisis and an economic crisis. That's when you
[37:34] saw Arsad Munir going to the IMF and seeking IMF bailouts and not just IMF,
[37:43] IMF and ADB. Now what did IMF say, I am, why
[37:47] did it become difficult to get an imfone or a bailout? Is because and
[37:52] that's why he had to turn things around, which which which which created a
[37:55] lot of hardships for the people. Um, I am have said that all
[38:00] your freebes subsidies that you give is the reason why you're in such a state.
[38:07] You will have to stop. If you want our loans, you will
[38:09] have to stop your power subsidy and all the other basic subsidies that are but
[38:15] particularly power. Yeah, do you know what that meant? That you would
[38:20] mean for Pakistan? It would mean that the prices had already shot up.
[38:25] Everything was unaffordable. Petrol is unaffordable in Pakistan, given that their state is
[38:30] so bad and the income is solo, and the prices prices of gas and
[38:35] petrol are only rising. So they said, stop subsidizing a gas or stop
[38:39] subsidizing fuel, and then you come to us for a bailout. So if
[38:45] because otherwise it is not a revenue model, you will never be able to
[38:49] pay us back, we will bail you out. It's a loan, it's
[38:52] not a it's not a grant or what Imran Khan kept calling, you know
[38:59] a doll you know, and our arms to a beggar. These are not
[39:05] arms. This is this is not a grant, This is a loan.
[39:07] It's a bailout. So you will never be able to pay us back.
[39:10] We don't see a revenue model in Pakistan, so you need to take tough
[39:15] decisions. When those tough decisions started being taken, life became more difficult for
[39:20] the people. In fact, life became difficult anyway because the financial status of
[39:24] Pakistan was in such a shape that there was no recovering from that. So
[39:30] you can make all promises to come to power, but unless an until you
[39:34] see the reality of what exists within your treasury and your coffers or who emptied
[39:38] those coffers before you entered. And it's not just a civilian dispensation. My
[39:45] god, the army over there is corrupt. Yeah, so you have to
[39:50] see that how corruption is rampant across board, which now includes Imran Khan and
[40:00] his charges in cases against him as well. While they've got bail in the
[40:04] Al Khala their trust. It's a serious allegation of one hundred and nineteen million
[40:07] pounds UH that that this entire scam has passed the state exchequer. And besides
[40:16] that the Tosha Khana case, which actually should be rather embarrassing for a man
[40:21] like Imran Khan to be stealing the gifts from foreign dignitaries and taking it from
[40:25] the Prime Minister's residence to his own residence. And they might be expensive gifts,
[40:30] but Imran Khan does not meet them and he never should have done.
[40:36] If he did, we don't know, we never should have done or this
[40:40] shouldn't have been a controversial issue at all. That somebody has taken things from
[40:45] the Tosha Khana. That's the most embarrassing of any of the cases that he
[40:51] has, apart from the fact that there are major charges of conspiracy, trees
[40:57] and now um corruptions, camps, so on and so forth against Imran Khan.
[41:02] So things are difficult because todd promises were made that no leader in the
[41:07] state that Pakistani is in could have kept or could have met. Yeah.
[41:13] Interesting, you know, just lastly we have focused on the military as a
[41:17] whole. But you know, while I us reading through the articles and just
[41:23] skimming through a bit, I found this one factor which almost surfaced all of
[41:29] the reports, that was the faction one faction within the army. And why
[41:34] was that relevant is because the recent unrest that unfolded in Pakistan. It reveals
[41:40] the factional divide within the military itself. You know that during the protest,
[41:46] the home of Lahore Core Commander Lieutenant General Faiaskani was vanalized by the writers.
[41:53] Now I think it appeared in the print that leaked audio messages from one of
[42:00] his relatives. One of Ghani's relatives suggests that General fires was opposed to the
[42:06] army chiefs policy of confrontation with Imran Khan and that the family had to flee
[42:12] to the home of a relative of the Chief Justice of the country and in
[42:17] fact, additionally three key commanders they are believed to have advised General Arsimon against
[42:23] a showdown with Imran Khan. So I want to understand that why would a
[42:28] faction within the army advice against confronting Imran Khan given the relations between the army
[42:34] and Khan that we have discussed about, and it's not latent to anyone.
[42:37] Well, this is the most important aspect of what you see today. We've
[42:43] spoken of what were the factors and the vectors that brought about this entire movement
[42:49] from the people's side and the political side. You know, camps being made,
[42:53] one being propped up against the other by the establishment and in the past
[43:00] were compromised deals. This time around that certainly didn't work out because there were
[43:04] external factors, including the US and Imran Khan. But the most important thing
[43:08] why we see a major friction and a rift is also because of the in
[43:15] fighting within the Pakistani Army. The rumble within park Army is also critical to
[43:22] how things have moved. Now you're very rightly saying that there's an entire audio
[43:27] clip audio note. Now you're talking about Lahore, poor commander's house being raided
[43:32] and the people who went entered stole almost everything. But there was a lady
[43:38] in the house and there were kids in the house. The Left in general
[43:43] himself was at his residence and when they came in, they were then taken
[43:49] swiftly to safety. After there was a rampage within the house itself, but
[43:54] they did not touch anybody. And in the note in then the voice note,
[43:59] it says because val at the arm head to the lady, saying that
[44:04] out of respect, because you're a lady and you're out of respect, we
[44:07] will not ask you to go inside the room and not step out, and
[44:12] which is what was done. But the lady, who's speaking to a senior
[44:17] officer, said that this is all being orchestrated. It was done by certain
[44:22] individuals within the establishment and because they did not like the Left in general,
[44:29] the Left in general. In another conversation between two it was said that he
[44:36] did not agree with the General as Simony is handling of the situation that he
[44:40] was not one of his boys. And then the new co commander of Lahore
[44:46] who was who was put in place is General fires Essentia of the synth Regiment.
[44:52] He is very close to our simony. Lahore is critical and they wanted
[44:57] somebody who who they could trust. Who is General Fasu Sansha. He was
[45:04] the ig frontier called North in Balochistan, was removed from command when Imran Khan
[45:13] was Prime Minister from Belochistan in twenty twenty one. He later then became left
[45:16] in general because because he was picking up his rank in October last year and
[45:23] will retire in twenty twenty six, so he has a lot of time in
[45:28] hand and he is known to be absolutely close to a Simoni from his Pindi
[45:34] days itself, meaning when he was posted in Raul Pindi. So and now
[45:37] you're looking at people who are slowly being placed in important positions by Asimonir to
[45:45] ensure that this sort of a repeat of this situation does not happen. So
[45:52] there is a huge in fighting within within the Pakistani army itself, and not
[45:59] everybody is siding with a seminar In fact, there are many who are now
[46:07] who actually, if you look at the card, it's very interesting. There
[46:13] are a lot of army officers and police officers whose families are PTI supporters.
[46:20] Okay, well so going and fighting against them. There were reports of how
[46:24] there are army officers whose kids are a part of the PTI protest. They
[46:30] might not have gone and burnt and all. I'm sure they would not do
[46:32] that, but they're part of the protests. They're like in the part of
[46:36] the long march. How do you take that away? And why is that
[46:39] happening? Is because everyone in a certain section of Pakistan knows everyone. They
[46:46] all have families in the military. They've all grown up in that system where
[46:52] military supreme. It's an undercurrent, it's an underlying thing in the Pakistani society.
[47:00] Of course it establishment Oh yes, he was being followed the you know,
[47:04] it's so normal to have these conversations over there right so here to become
[47:08] a big deal. Of course, we would never imagine. I mean,
[47:13] I remember your colleague and he also does a similar podcasts. I mean,
[47:20] his podcast is mostly related to defense, and he was saying that he was
[47:23] discussing Pakistan because at that point. It was very a fresh and very recent
[47:28] and he was saying that if I were given this option to live their life
[47:32] what Pakistan, the people of Pakistan are going through right now, I mean,
[47:37] I would feel suffocated. He said that because of what they have gone
[47:40] through and what they are going through, so kind of really sums up the
[47:45] condition over there. That's true. We've reported from Pakistan and we have a
[47:52] lot of dear friends who are journalists in Pakistan. It's not always very easy.
[47:58] You know, a lot of people say that compared to other journalists,
[48:00] journalists in Pakistan are way braver. Yes, of course they're braver. You
[48:05] have to give it to them against all odds. Some of them against all
[48:09] odds, which means taking on the army. Also have taken on their establishment
[48:15] and yet have ensured that they do not leave their own country. But mostly
[48:20] when you talk about brave journalists, they're saying that, you know, they
[48:22] can question any government. They don't care India or other countries people, do
[48:28] you know there is a certain amount of self censorship or they're not that journalists
[48:34] are a little more caf But the difference is that in Pakistan journalists take on
[48:38] the government. Please I'll show me journalists who take on the army. Yeah,
[48:44] so army is the government. Army is the power. If you're talking
[48:46] about other countries, you're talking about journalists not taking on the power because of
[48:53] certain concerns. In Pakistan, they do not take on the power that's the
[48:58] army because of certain concerns. They might take on the establishment because R.
[49:01] J. Colney today, this person, this government, this person is in
[49:05] power tomorrow. If the army does not want to be a lot to be
[49:07] there, but the army will always be there. So they're brave to the
[49:10] extent that they take on the established. The civilian government not brave enough to
[49:15] take on the establishment. Borrowing a few, I still would say that they're
[49:20] very brave journalists because quite a few of them actually take on the Pakistan establishment,
[49:23] to question the establishment and yet still stand firm in their beliefs and there
[49:30] and their thinking and their journalism. Yeah, so very hard. I mean,
[49:37] definitely, very thought provoking statement. I just want to end this discussion,
[49:42] like there's speaking of journalists. They're speaking of India and Pakistan, of
[49:45] course, but you know here when we covered Pakistan, not only in the
[49:52] media, I think you know, even in our vicinity. I mean,
[49:55] if you have a chat with our family members or like anybody in our circle,
[50:00] I mean, they always have an opinion on what is happening in Pakistan.
[50:05] Bali, I mean they don't know about what is happening around the world
[50:07] with Pakistan. They are quite aware and everybody has an opinion. I think
[50:12] I was just having a chat with a few friends of mine and they were
[50:15] saying that, you know, whatever is happening in Pakistan. I mean it's
[50:19] because of course, I mean not to sound insensitive, but that was their
[50:22] views that whatever is happening in Pakistan. I think it's okay for India.
[50:28] These were some of their views. It's okay for India. But on this
[50:30] note, I want to understand from you Guita that and I was reading along
[50:36] these lines also, I was reading left in journalists called hs Panag he has
[50:39] served in the Tetsunami for forty years. And he said that, and I'm
[50:43] quoting him. He says, Guana's father general, Yes, yes, yes,
[50:46] yes's father. Yeah. So should not say that, you can let
[50:52] you not say that he in his own right has has has earned a lot.
[50:57] Definitely, it's it's it's just like relatability. Yeah, kind of relatibility
[51:01] that we sort of assume, but yes he am quoting him. He said
[51:07] that a failed anarchical Pakistan will be a nightmare for India and the world.
[51:13] Imagine a nation armed with nuclear weapons, dominated by religious fanatics with a death
[51:20] wish. It will team up with the Taliban in Afghanistan to establish an Islamic
[51:23] caliphate. The consequence for Jamu and Kashmir would be horrendous and the proxy war
[51:30] will spill over into the hinter end of India. Even in its best avatar,
[51:35] the Iranian model, it will offer no soulis to India. So final
[51:39] thoughts on it, geta what is your take in terms of how well well
[51:44] there is no solace to derive from a completely destroyed Pakistan. There is no
[51:50] solace to derive out of any bad or ill will for a neighbor. So
[51:57] there that aside. But the big question, big big statement over here would
[52:01] be if there is going to be such a situation. Let in general Panal
[52:07] is talking about, if this happens, then this will then it will be
[52:12] completely it will destabilized the visas. To me, I think this if is
[52:16] a big and a far reaching if. It is not something that is in
[52:22] the realm of possibility. Why do I say that, because it's not just
[52:25] Pakistan's army. It's about America's involvement in Pakistan, the West's involvement in investment
[52:31] in Pakistan, China's involvement and investment in Pakistan, now Russia's engagement with Pakistan.
[52:38] They're not a country like Afghanistan where the Taliban were from. Afghanistan always
[52:45] wanted to take over, had taken over, were ousted and have returned.
[52:50] That is a problem that Pakistan also has to deal with, having a Taliban
[52:53] administration as your neighbor. Go on other days when Pakistan will willingly recognize the
[53:00] Taliban of first they were smiling year to year because they thought it as everybody's
[53:04] loss. And Taliban they have they have a complete hold over. But look
[53:08] at their problems at the border. They have no control over the Taliban.
[53:12] In fact, they've had attacks from the other side, rorist attacks from the
[53:16] other side, and the Taliban have said it very clearly that they're not going
[53:21] to take action against the Taliban, even the French Eleman so who whose security
[53:27] is its take over? Here? It is Pakistan's. Pakistan will be in
[53:30] a lot of trouble and not neither the establishment nor the people of Pakistan are
[53:37] willing to have an extremist impact. Extremist political parties within Pakistan, if you
[53:43] see, do not get a lot of votes. They are always the smaller
[53:46] parties. They're not the national parties. It's not like the p P PPM
[53:51] and even p PTI. It's not an it's not an Islamic party party.
[53:57] Yes, so the takers for very extreme ideologically based parties is quite quite low,
[54:06] even within Pakistan. So as to the situation where such a scenario can
[54:10] exist, I don't think is something that is in the realm of a possibility
[54:17] in the near future. It is not in the within the realm of possibility
[54:22] in the near future. If things change drastically, if things go completely tumbling
[54:28] downwards and you have more influence from Afghanistan the Taliban, then it's a different
[54:34] question. But right now, I don't think that's the problem. The problem
[54:37] is that, yes, Pakistan has been using terrorism as an instrument of state
[54:42] policy. Pakistan's establishment has been into hoots and embdd with most of these terror
[54:47] organizations that direct their energies against India, and that certainly continues to remain a
[54:52] problem. Will that change till we have the Kashmir issue between the two countries,
[54:58] That certainly is not going to change. Respective of whether if Pakistan becomes
[55:01] an Islamic state or not, Pakistan will always remain in trouble for India and
[55:07] a troubled state given its own state of affairs. Yes, actually very important
[55:13] points raised during this conversation. GETA, I think people, and of course
[55:20] to our listeners convenience, I'll be adding all those hyperlinks to this episode,
[55:24] the economy one that we did. I think it was a very detailed one.
[55:28] You should definitely give it a listen and let us know what you think
[55:31] about this episode and the previous ones, the number of state five, double
[55:36] eight nine, double six, double line six and the email ideas pots at
[55:39] the rate India Today dot com, So let us know. GETA. I
[55:43] think this is the forty fourth episode and we have been covering so many topics
[55:50] with so much of detail. So I think we need a bit of shure
[55:57] that's going on the right path and that's true, and that assurance can only
[56:00] come up our listeners trust start listening and sharing the podcast with their family,
[56:07] friends, their colleagues. People they know. If you're interested in a foreign
[56:15] policy or things that are happening around the world, please come to our space.
[56:21] We try to keep it topical. Anna was insistent that we should discuss
[56:25] Turkey elections because it's happening, but because we did not touch upon Pakistan,
[56:30] I thought we'll Pakistan today. There will be some more clarity on the elections
[56:36] in Turkey my next Tuesday. So we will touch upon Turkey elections in our
[56:43] next episode. Yes they will. By the way, elections elections are in
[56:47] Pakistan also there are to be elections are to be held. No, not
[56:52] really now with the situation, but the situation that see, the whole thing
[56:55] was this. The Supreme Court had said May fourteen when Punjab elections should be
[57:01] held. Helce the government will be held in contempt. The government did not
[57:06] release the money in the budget, which is what Imran Khan is also using
[57:08] as a pretext. Now, okay, and the Chebashi government would have been
[57:15] held in contempt and then the situation became volatile. Now the courts asked,
[57:20] they'll say, which is yesterday. The courts have not declared it contempt of
[57:24] court because the situation does not behove holding of elections in the country. So
[57:32] there is going to be no elections till the time situation stabilizes, which is
[57:37] a long way from now, and Chebashi and his party certainly will have some
[57:44] time to strategize. So will the PPP, I'm saying the PDM, so
[57:50] will the leading coalition, the ruling coalition and the PTI. Should Imran Khan
[57:55] not be incarcerated by the Pakistani military court, somebody asked Meanna, what's the
[58:00] future for Imran Khan and what will happen in Pakistan? I said, see,
[58:05] in Pakistan, in odd probability, everything will be done in the establishment's
[58:08] power to ensure that Pakistan Army prevails. On the other hand, if you
[58:14] ask me about Imran Khan, and let's end it with that, there are
[58:16] only two very important routes that I see this entire thing, take this entire
[58:23] unrest within Pakistan. Take one is that Imran Khan might have a long political
[58:30] future if he's given the space. He will have a long political future because
[58:36] his popularity is only seeming to go. On the other hand, he will
[58:42] either be incarcerated or we have seen too many assassinations. Do not believe that
[58:47] you know, his life is under threat. True, it's unfortunate, but
[58:52] but yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, but this is taking
[58:55] a bit too long. But yeah, I mean, now that you've said
[58:59] this, I remember there were some conspiracy theories going on that and from the
[59:04] Pakistani handles itself from on Twitter that what if this continues and what if his
[59:10] party also his PTI party gets labeled as a terrorist organization, That can also
[59:15] happen. I mean, it's just just a conspiracy theory, but the dimensions
[59:20] and the probabilities in this particular situation is just unwarranted here, So anything can
[59:24] happen, and provided the history of the country that we're talking about. So
[59:30] thank you Gita for this amazing and thank you Anna. This was interesting quite
[59:39] a lot. I hope, I hope our listens state at the end of
[59:43] the podcast, but most of the areas that you would have questions on have
[59:49] already been covered. So thank you, yes, thank you so much. Thank you

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