# China Mosque Demolition: Beijing's Communism At Odds With Country's Capitalistic Mentality & Religious Diversity? | Geeta's World, Ep 47

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 6 Jun 2023, 49 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/54115229/06_jun_23_geeta_june_06_128.mp3

Last week unrest broke out in China, seemingly in response to attempts by the Chinese authorities to dismantle parts of Najiaying mosque in Nagu, a town in Yunnan province. The province predominantly houses the Hui Muslims. But on what grounds, has the Chinese government labelled these mosques as "illegal religious education"? And like the Huis and Uighurs, the Ahmadis in Pakistan remain a persecuted community. How does the persecution of a religious minority in an Islamic country like Pakistan differ from persecution in a country like China that claims itself to be ‘athiest’?

## Transcript

[0:00] This is Ya Today podcasts. Last week, unrest broke out in China seemingly
[0:08] in response to attempts by the Chinese authorities to dismantle parts of Najiang Mosque in
[0:14] Nagu, which is a town in Yunnan Province. The province predominantly houses the
[0:20] Hui Muslims, But on what crowns has the Chinese government labeled these mosques as
[0:26] illegal religious education. Target of the attacks have been the domes and the minerals.
[0:32] They are illegal editions, which certainly is not the case. Is if
[0:35] you go back and see they have been around for a while, and like
[0:39] the Huis and the Vigers, the MDes in Pakistan remain a persecuted community.
[0:45] How does the persecution of a religious minority in an Islamic country like Pakistan differ
[0:51] from persecution in a country like China that claims itself to be an atheist country.
[0:56] It is quite different because in Pakistan it's in a very rudimentary manner.
[1:02] In China, you don't need to ask the state because it is state ordered
[1:06] there. It's not the state doing it to their people. It is the
[1:07] state being complicit with these elements that are harming the social fabric of the country.
[1:15] Hello, I'm anna Prodeshoni with India Today TV's Foreign Affairs editor Geta Mohun.
[1:22] Where with Githa's astute and incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve into
[1:26] all that is urgent and pressing in world politics and comprehend how these developments in
[1:33] other countries could shape India's global ambitions of being a Vishwaguru. Let's unravel Githa's
[1:42] world. So this is the forty seventh episode and Geta is here right in
[1:49] front of me, sitting here in the India studio. In the studio,
[1:53] that is like the benchmark of this episode. Whenever in the studio, I
[1:57] just have to, like, you know, men mention it Yea. But
[2:00] for your seven Gaita, we're heading towards not bad, not fifty two will
[2:04] make a year, yes, So that is indeed an achievement, like coming
[2:07] here week after week discussing several topics that interesting ones. I was just going
[2:14] through the episodes because I was researching for the topic that we're going to discuss
[2:20] today, and we've already discussed one before, which is actually doing quite well.
[2:24] So you know, people who would want to get a background on the
[2:30] situation in certain provinces of China, and and I will tell you what we're
[2:34] discussing that was. That's also an interesting episode actually, yes, yes,
[2:38] And while I was researching, there's another like similar incident. Of course,
[2:43] we'll be revealing like what we're talking about, but in Pakistan, which is
[2:46] also one of ourn during countries, and there's a minority called them Theism.
[2:50] We had a specific conversation around their met theist. Yes, that was also
[2:53] one of the you know, chanished episodes of ours, although all are but
[3:00] still if we have to you know, pay the point, yes, yeah,
[3:02] pick a few, but yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking that
[3:07] on the fiftieth episode, will try to include somebody some experts so that you
[3:12] know, it adds to the broadest sense, yes, of the topic.
[3:15] That will be really this week, Gita will be focusing, like you said,
[3:19] on China. And there were significant developments in the southwestern town of nagu
[3:24] in Yunnan Province, which predominantly houses the Hui Muslims. I don't know,
[3:30] I was just I was having a chat with my colleagues about the like usually
[3:36] I do this before coming to the podcast studio. That I just mentioned KiHa.
[3:39] This is what I'm discussing, and I was surprised that, I mean,
[3:43] many of them didn't know about the WHOI Muslims. They are aware of
[3:46] the wagers, but they didn't know about it. So I'm sure like if
[3:50] their listeners out there who were not acquainted, this could be a good episode
[3:54] to know. So, the Hui are one of fifties six ethnic groups recognized
[4:01] by Beijing and are predominantly Sunni Muslims, and Yunnan, in the country's southwest
[4:06] is home to some seven hundred thousand of about ten million Hui Muslims in China.
[4:13] So, as reports say, what happened on twenty seventh May last week,
[4:17] the Hui community gathered at Najiayang Mosque to offer noon prayers when the Chinese
[4:25] pullee arrived and blocked the entrance, leading to the growing tension in the area.
[4:30] Then subsequently the officials secured all the intersections. This I'm seeing on the
[4:35] basis of multiple propose that I've read provoking public anger which resulted in acts of
[4:42] violence and stone belting. Although violence was observed, but there were I mean,
[4:46] and there were several videos circulating on social media as well, but these
[4:50] videos were subsequently removed from Chinese social media platforms owing to we know how press
[4:58] freedom functions in China. But the controversy surrounding the mosque it began when a
[5:03] quote this particular mosque I'm talking about when a quote in twenty twenty ordered the
[5:09] demolition of its doom and four minutes, citing their construction without official permission.
[5:15] So the Chinese government's crackdown on religious practices, particularly targeting Muslim minority groups,
[5:23] has affected the Hui community as well. China has also been accused of systematic
[5:27] human rights abuses against wager Muslims in its province of Xinxiang, where mosques have
[5:32] been demolished and Islamic religious practices have been banned. So in this episode,
[5:38] Gaeta and I will try to understand what this row over mosk demolition was all
[5:43] about. Who are the Hui Muslims, why do they remain one of the
[5:46] persecuted communities in China, and what President Shi Jin thinks pledged to continue a
[5:54] synicization of religion, What does it really mean and how the world sees the
[6:00] event that is I think very important, and what does their persecution tell about
[6:04] the rule religion has played in China's nationalistic politics, Sugita, you know what
[6:12] transpired the particular event that we're talking about in the Yunnan province. I think
[6:15] this was not a one off case that China has witnessed, and I'll cite
[6:21] one incident when in twenty eighteen, hundreds of Huei Muslims in the Ninzia region
[6:27] engaged in a protracted standoff with authorities to prevent their mosque from being demolished.
[6:32] In twenty eighteen itself, three mosques in Yunnan. They were also shut down
[6:38] for what was deemed to be illegal religious education. So, you know,
[6:42] like I mentioned that, we all know that there is an overarching theme here
[6:45] behind these mosques demolished by Chinese officials that is also quote mandated, which coincides
[6:53] with President She's pledged to continuous synesization of religion and will come to that.
[6:58] We'll try to explore that as well. But what struck me is why the
[7:03] Chinese government refers to these mosques as illegal religious education under the guise of,
[7:11] you know, synicization of religion, Like, can you tell me that?
[7:15] Why why are they saying that you know, these are illegal? Uh?
[7:17] These mosques are illegal religious education, and then that sort of gives them the
[7:23] right to, you know, demolish these mosques. It's it's it's an interesting
[7:28] question, Anna, because a lot of people would want to know why is
[7:30] it that mosques are being demolished and why in the name of sanitization or making
[7:39] it more Chinese. Now, what do the mosques represent? Especially what are
[7:44] they what are they targeting? If you see most of the attacks art the
[7:48] target of the attacks have been the domes and the minerals. What do these
[7:54] domes and minerals represent? They represent Persian relation, architecture and influence. What
[8:03] is she Jinping trying to do? From twenty sixteen, if you see his
[8:05] speech where he spoke about Sinaization of China, making it more united and making
[8:15] making everybody one come under one umbrella of what China should look like. These
[8:24] mosques look like anomalies. They do not look like what the norm should be.
[8:28] There have been cases where they try to change the architecture of how these
[8:35] religious places should look like. So that is one way of looking at it,
[8:39] which is very to do with the physical infrastructure and the look of a
[8:48] place. And therefore the reason why they're looking at domes and minarets. If
[8:52] it was just a building complex squared buildings, the way you know communists China
[8:58] really has, then I suppose there wouldn't have been a direct threat or attack
[9:03] to the structure. But it's not just the structure that China's attacking. It's
[9:09] also the edifice, it's also the foundation. It's also what that structure brings
[9:15] along with it that China's attacking, symbol the culture that comes with that religion.
[9:22] The religion itself, Islam in many ways, has been an isaw.
[9:30] Any projection of Islam has been an isaw. For President Chi chin Ping,
[9:35] it goes against the values and ideas that he has tried to bring about talking
[9:41] about unity and in that unity, these aspects certainly don't exist, but they
[9:48] are certainly a very important part of China, Chinese history, Chinese culture,
[9:56] and that's why they've not been able to do away. For all all the
[10:00] autocracy and authority and regime that we talk about China, the China really is
[10:05] when it comes to these provinces and the strong influence of Islam in these communities,
[10:13] that certainly has remained, but there has been a compromised look. Even
[10:16] the Hui Chinese. Now they're different from the Wiger Muslims. If you look
[10:22] at Wager Muslims, they look a little different from the majority Han Chinese.
[10:33] But Hui Muslims are descendants of Han Chinese. So that's why their look is
[10:39] more. They look more Chinese or Han Chinese than they can be distinguished very
[10:48] easily, but over here the distinguishing factors are not as pronounced. There is
[10:54] a difference. They are descendants of han Is, also from immigrants and travelers
[10:58] from the Silk Road, so there's a lot of mix of culture and that's
[11:03] why you see a lot of influence of people who travel the Silk Road and
[11:09] came and the architecture, the kind of clothes they're wear. They still carry
[11:16] their their skull caps, which as the white cap and the scarf. They
[11:20] still have it despite the fact that you know, a lot of them are
[11:26] identified and treated differently, maybe because of what they're wearing, but they still
[11:33] haven't given that up. But there has been quite a bit of compromise and
[11:37] assimilation even in this province. And if you look at how people have tried
[11:43] to ensure that they are more Chinese, that country comes before religion is something
[11:52] that is ingrained that religion does not come above. It's you know, projects
[11:58] itself as an Eighth East country. Yes, so it's somehow dilutes the entire
[12:03] religion. And and but they have also tried to make those changes even within
[12:07] their own system, be their mosque, beat the prayer, how the systems
[12:13] and how they work. But we have seen quite a few instances, and
[12:20] this is just one of them where you're talking about minarets, and the excuse
[12:24] that the administration is using is that it's illegal construction and unauthorized building. And
[12:31] that's why, I mean, we don't look what grounds they're saying. As
[12:35] the ground, this is the ground. So the ground that they're giving is
[12:37] the addition that they are illegal additions, which certainly is not the case because
[12:43] if you go back and see they have been around for a while, so
[12:48] we know what's happening over here. But the problem comes when you are trying
[12:56] to control heart control. It's all most Orwellian that there is thought policing in
[13:03] how the person is thinking, what he derives from his religion, what he
[13:09] enjoys in his personal space, Like religious songs are not allowed even on your
[13:15] mobile phones. Your phones can be confiscated if they have religious sermons and songs,
[13:22] so that the level of that's the level. So since twenty sixteen,
[13:28] when President ch Chimping in his famous speech spoke about Chinese unity, we have
[13:33] seen dismantling of certain aspects of Chinese history and culture that have always been there,
[13:43] now dismantling because it does not suit the idea and the picture that ch
[13:50] Chimping has painted to what should China look like? Yeah, like, and
[13:56] basically they say that they want to centify their mosques so that they look more
[14:01] like Beijings tane Men's Square, right, yes, yeah, But interestingly,
[14:07] you know, besides Muslims, there are members of the Buddhist and Christian minorities
[14:13] in China as well who have complained in the past about the religious statues and
[14:16] structures being destroyed as part of this the Chinese government's ideas of you know,
[14:22] infusing religions with socialist and Chinese ideals, although of course the level of persecution
[14:28] being faced by Muslims and China cannot be matched. But the point here is
[14:33] that China, as a communist state, is atheist and believes in you know,
[14:39] gradually wiping out the prevalence of religious expression. This is similar to North
[14:43] Korea, you know, which is also a communist and atheist country, and
[14:48] of course the erstwhile Soviet Union or USSR, which was the fountain head of
[14:52] communism, and also you know said this benchmark of ensuring that the state prophesies
[15:01] atheism and also propagates atheism as the ideal way of life. But you know,
[15:07] yet it is these communist states where the leaders have had the biggest personality
[15:13] cults, whether it would be Lenin or Stalent in the Soviet Union, Mao
[15:18] Zadong to She Jinping in China, Kim Kim Jong oon and his forefathers who
[15:24] also ruled you know, North Korea. And I think that you know,
[15:28] this is I think it's it's like a very particular, it's very particular about
[15:31] communism that there's this thing of showing reverence for the founding fathers of the ideology.
[15:37] So even communist politicians in Kerala, what congratulate she didn't Ping for his
[15:43] reelection as president of China, even though she Jan Ping is not on Twitter,
[15:48] but so did we, so did the government. Here is she Jinping
[15:54] the president of China irrespective of now Anna here there is a human difference.
[16:00] Now, this is where a lot of people try to say that, oh,
[16:03] look at this, scare la communist government congratulating because their communists and they
[16:08] agree with the politics and so on. So absolutely not when a leader and
[16:15] China is a country, we like it or we don't like it, we
[16:18] have problems with it, but we're still doing business with it. And I
[16:22] keep saying this. During COVID time, so many people thought, oh,
[16:26] let's blame China. China has to be blamed, and they threw their TVs
[16:30] out and so on and so forth. Come next year, our trade with
[16:33] India with China has increased, and the government had no response. What did
[16:41] doctor jess And could say? He said that, well, for those who
[16:45] think, you know, they can say, let's cut ties this that it's
[16:48] not easy because right now there is no alternative. That's how important China is
[16:55] and they know about it. Why would countries not ratulate a president once he
[17:00] takes office? Exactly everybody does. There is a slight revelation, you know,
[17:08] in many for others when they see a communist government of a state in
[17:15] India congratulating their president. But having said that, every government, I don't
[17:22] know how many actually congratulated President Jimping, But felicitations are always sent because somebody's
[17:30] taking office. That's true, yeah, but unprecedented also for the things time,
[17:34] for the third time. Yeah. But I mean the point where I
[17:38] was getting is that you know where you see all these biggest personality cults,
[17:41] and that is true. So how do you see this dichotomy? Like on
[17:45] one hand you have, like you know, you're professing yourself to be an
[17:49] atheist country, which debunks all religious practices and the beliefs, And on the
[17:55] other hand you have all these personality cult figures. So where's the balance?
[17:59] And so for them, religion is not important, but authority certainly is.
[18:04] It is an authoritarian government. It always has been. That's how CPC works.
[18:10] The Communist Party of China works in that fashion. Whoever came to power,
[18:15] they might be Some of them might have been benign rulers. The others
[18:21] were autocratic and authoritarian, and she Chinping has taken that to another level.
[18:27] That's the only difference. But they varied in degrees, but they were all
[18:33] authoritarian rulers. The hero worship, now, the thing is that most of
[18:40] it is not because they worship it's also because they fear yea a common man.
[18:45] In China, a lot of people say, oh, you know Chinese,
[18:48] also Chinese themselves, you know, when we argue with them, they
[18:52] say, but if you go back home, and you will see we also
[18:56] protest. We also protest and you know, ask questions to the government,
[19:00] which is not actually untrue. It is actually true in their own level.
[19:04] If there is a local issue and there is some corruption that is happening there,
[19:11] you will see protests. You will see people come out and say,
[19:12] oh, he's a cheat, and you know, this officer should go and
[19:15] their cases registered, so on and so forth. But at the national level
[19:21] it's different. Nobody questions Chi Jinping. And right now his consolidation of the
[19:29] party and the country is such along with the military, is such that nobody
[19:33] can dare to question President Chi Jinping. So there is a certain section within
[19:41] the country that almost he's not just revered, but he's popular to the extent
[19:47] that he is a cult figure exactly. But there are many others who also
[19:51] questioned. They just don't question openly. There are many who might not be
[19:55] okay with his policies, but they keep quiet because there is no other that
[20:00] might be the difference. But when you look at when you look at communism
[20:07] and how China has taken it up, it's again I go back to Orwellian
[20:11] if you read the Animal Farm, there is always you know, everybody's equal,
[20:15] but some are more more equally equal than the others. That's what is
[20:19] happening over here. They talk communism, but they have long long given up
[20:26] on the idea of communism. It's a it's a it's quite a capitalist economy
[20:33] when it comes to dealing with countries. Um, they are market oriented when
[20:37] it comes to dealing with countries. So they have a different policy when it
[20:42] comes to foreign policy, and they have a different policy when it comes to
[20:45] domestic Yeah. I mean the traps, Yeah, dead trapp is actually um.
[20:52] When we're going back to what is happening within China and the and the
[20:57] kind of steps that are being taken to contain Muslims in the country clearly shows
[21:07] that this is an authoritarian government, an authoritarian regime that derives its powers out
[21:12] of one man, and that man derives his powers from the consolidation of the
[21:18] country that he's managed to do. When it comes to the systems and the
[21:26] power corners of the country. So he derives all his power from the fact
[21:32] that everybody has now is now looking at President she Chimping as the one man,
[21:37] the one powerful man who will take decisions. So the twenty sixteen decision
[21:42] of sinization of various parts of China is now underway on a bigger scale,
[21:52] and the crackdown is way more aggressive. Earlier we see some action being taken
[22:00] and then a pushback. But we're an we're also what we're seeing and witnessing
[22:03] a wee is also quite interesting. Social media and vpnsa proxy servers have now
[22:11] empowered the common man in China to project, to send his word out there.
[22:19] We saw it when the Apple factory lockdown happened and people protested and like
[22:27] how and now we're seeing the same thing. This is not a new phenomenon.
[22:33] It's been happening for a while, but the protests are certainly new.
[22:38] And I'll just add one thing that I read in one of the articles that
[22:44] said that Karl Marx he said that you know, communism begins where eightism begins,
[22:48] and Lenin later argued that religion will only prevent a man from becoming a
[22:53] true socialist and fighting class oppression. But then I mean, this is the
[22:59] ideaology where you know, the strain of hero worship is so severe that you
[23:04] end up removing gods so that living being you know, yeah, that pedestal.
[23:11] So that is interesting. I wish you know it was about. See,
[23:15] religion based politics, cast based politics and class based politics are the bin
[23:21] of humanity. You have to leave them in their personal spaces and cast should
[23:26] not exist. That is another issue altogether. But these countries don't deal with
[23:30] cast, they deal with class and ledge. So when the idea began,
[23:37] it began because they did think that religion is the bin of humanity and that
[23:41] if you do away with it, then you have a better system in place.
[23:45] Because you're getting you you will do away with class. Everybody will have
[23:49] equal opportunity, everybody will have equal resources, and they will grow equally.
[23:55] But who's controlling those resources. Those few men who control in this case CPC,
[24:02] control their resources become more powerful than the ones who don't. Also,
[24:07] when you're talking about a country as large as because you mentioned lenin Russia or
[24:12] for that matter, China or any country, people are not going to give
[24:18] up on their culture and their religion just because one man asks you too,
[24:22] yeah, and you're seeing that because you see that. There are a lot
[24:26] of minorities within China, a lot of them who a lot of China is
[24:33] moving towards religion, so they are going back to their roots. A lot
[24:37] of the Chinese are now going back to finding God, finding religion because we
[24:44] are living in a very competitive market economy. Everything is about competition, getting
[24:51] ahead of the other, and in that when you look at solace and you
[24:53] want some peace and solace, you look to these. Also, most of
[24:57] China are quite a bit of them are quite well to do now, so
[25:02] they have space to find maybe you know, peace somewhere else. So Taoism,
[25:07] Buddhism, all are coming back, and Islam, Christianity never left.
[25:12] So right now it is for the Chinese leadership to decide whether they want to
[25:18] always be at loggerheads with people who want to practice a certain kind of religion
[25:22] or and make the country look same everywhere, or enjoy the diversity that exists.
[25:29] Because this is diversity. None of them over there are indulging in any
[25:34] anti national activity, whichever community we're talking about. There have been certain problems
[25:41] in Shinjiang, problems because of which China always looks to and looks at Pakistan.
[25:45] Do not have trouble with the Iwiger Muslims because there they've had certain incidents
[25:51] and trouble, but that was also because of the oppression and not the other
[25:55] way around. I think in China, China has the benefit right now having
[26:00] people from different communities, diverse population, the Hui Muslims, weaker Muslims,
[26:06] all of them who are not anti national. They just want to practice a
[26:11] particular religion in peace exactly. And China's idea of Sinaization certainly is not in
[26:18] the best interests of China itself. Being diverse is not a bad thing.
[26:23] Yeah, trying to make everyone look similar and the same can become a problem
[26:30] for for she jimping. Yeah, actually, I got reminded of you know
[26:34] one movie which I've watched, I think two three weeks back. It's called
[26:38] by Varium. I don't know if you've watched it, have you. It's
[26:41] based on sci fi, but you know, the idea of ending the diversity
[26:47] and trying to make everything look similar. And it's basically based on the story
[26:53] of a couple who gets trapped in this sort of not country but a town
[26:57] where everything looks similar. Wow, every you know, house is similar.
[27:02] Everything they eat, they talk, how they how they you know, conduct
[27:07] their business. Everything is similar. So I think, I mean, I
[27:10] was just reminded of that. But Future Watch it's really good. It's sci
[27:12] fi but sort of similar to what is happening in China where it's just bunking
[27:18] the diversity. Yes, and you know, everything the future looking is so
[27:22] um is also symmetrical. Everything looks alike, everything has to look alike.
[27:27] That shouldn't be the case. Beauty is in diversity. So I mean it's
[27:33] cliche, but this is the reality. Yeah, but this is also this
[27:37] is also goes against their ethos, Yeah, and their ideology. That is
[27:41] the real problem why they're going ahead doing what they're doing. True, And
[27:45] you know, Getter, I'll just circle back to the episode we did many
[27:51] many months ago about the Amides and I remember the PEG was also kind of
[27:56] this that there were some miscreants who allegedly attack them mosques and Lahore and it
[28:03] was the TLP. Allegedly the miscreans were from the TLP. But similarly,
[28:07] I was, you know, wondering that the emits in Pakistan and their persecution.
[28:15] We addressed. You know how in both India and Pakistan, Sunnis formed
[28:18] the overwhelming majority of the Muslim population, and in Pakistan the government has colluded
[28:25] with the Sunni majority to remove mdies from the country's institutions. That was the
[28:30] basis of our discussion. Amadas are identified as non Muslims, they're paving the
[28:36] way for their persecution. So in an Islamic country, you know, Pakistan
[28:40] being an Islamic country, we're talking about minorities being persecuted by the dominant sect
[28:45] of Islam itself, which is the Sunnis. But here in this context,
[28:49] they're talking about the Whui's sect, which is a minority in a country that
[28:53] presents itself as an atheist country. Right, so and the who we are
[28:57] predominantly Sunnimo Slams, you know, so, I just want to base it
[29:02] in our current context that trying to understand that how persecution of a minority such
[29:08] as Amadis in a dominant Islamic country like Pakistan differs from persecution of a minority
[29:15] such as the Vigers or the Hui in a country that claims itself to be
[29:19] an atheist like China. Very interesting. It is quite different. Why because
[29:25] in Pakistan. It's done in a very rudimentary manner. It's a very basic
[29:32] difference in how Emadias view Islam and how the others do. And that's why
[29:37] they're not considered Muslims. They're considered carfares and non Muslims. And the dealing
[29:42] of the Amadias is normally not by the state because the state has grown,
[29:48] the state recognizes Islam, the state has grown, state is understanding that the
[29:52] international community is watching, so they're trying to be a little tolerant. But
[29:56] it's the ry Kalaba, pakis Stan or some such group that will come and
[30:02] say, you know, take on these minorities, and the state looks the
[30:06] other way. Of course. Yeah, it's not like the state is not
[30:08] a you're complicit in turning a blind eye too, exactly. There is complicity
[30:15] there as well. So you turn a blind eye because there's vote bank and
[30:18] the TLP and others have Sunni votes to to Ghana. That is, they
[30:26] want to please them and Emmadas don't, so they're not a vote. That's
[30:30] so it's very rude, dementary and how they're handling it. In China,
[30:34] it is state, it is it comes from the state. The decision is
[30:41] not by private citizens or some organization or group. So there's a huge difference
[30:45] in how the two states are handling it. Um. We see a lot
[30:51] of minority persecution in Pakistan, nobody doing anything, no action being taken,
[30:57] people asking and they're saying they're over taking action, so on and so what
[31:00] in China you don't need to ask the state because it is state ordered.
[31:04] You're telling the world that the state is doing this to its people. There,
[31:11] it's not the state doing it to their people. It is the state
[31:14] being complicit with these elements that are, you know, harming the social fabric
[31:19] of the country. So there's a huge difference. Interesting. But what CCP
[31:25] also does, and it's that this is a very important point. There are
[31:27] about ninety million members of the CCP. If you want to be a part
[31:33] of the fold, the party, the government, you're part of the party,
[31:38] then yeah, they are not allowed to practice religion. So even if
[31:42] increasingly there are youngsters who are in the private sector working, aren't want to
[31:49] take to religion. If you are, if you are part, if you're
[31:52] a party member and you cannot hold religious beliefs, then why because it goes
[31:59] against and the idea of of CCP. And and lastly, CCP has pushed
[32:07] to Sina sized religion or shape all religions to conform to what you know,
[32:14] the ethos and idea of China, a communist China really should look like.
[32:19] And in that we're looking at one thing that they're planning on doing. Since
[32:23] twenty twenty, all religious groups have to accept to spread the CCP ideology and
[32:30] values. Now a lot of religions don't do that. They even in a
[32:35] mosque, you have your prayers, then you have the sermon. The sermon
[32:38] not necessarily has you know, talks about ideology which is atheist in nature,
[32:45] right, but that is what they're required to do. Faith organizations must now
[32:51] after this whole sinitization program must get approval from government's Religious Affairs Office before conducting
[32:59] any active Witty, Now, what has happened over here, and I just
[33:01] just before we wrap up a lot of protests or action and crackdown. You've
[33:08] seen in the recent past and the name of protests that they are protesting and
[33:13] so that's why they crackdown, you know happened, But a lot of them
[33:17] happen on very silent private gatherings, even if they're talking about concerns, there's
[33:24] a crackdown that aside. Now a lot of it happens on not just private
[33:30] gatherings where concerns are being raised on private just normal sermons or you know,
[33:36] people getting together on a religious day. There you see how the state is
[33:43] trying to single handedly ensure that the country is sand's religion and that is not
[33:52] working out for China because it's not going to happen. All you'll see is
[33:57] more resistance because with the with the introduction of mobile phones technology VPNs, people
[34:05] have started showing what is happening within China. One of the primary reasons why
[34:10] the last protests in China you did not see a massive police crackdown because they
[34:15] knew everybody was recording and so they could not so they were being very,
[34:21] very constrained. If it were in the past what we've seen or heard of
[34:30] and there were protests, they would have been taken and put behind bars,
[34:36] all of them. That's not happening now, so there is a change.
[34:40] She should be us trying to do what he's trying to do, and you
[34:45] cannot stop him up to us after a certain point. If he wants the
[34:47] buildings to look different, but the people are not going to change. Yeah,
[34:52] I mean there's a change, but it is not altering with the ideology.
[34:55] I mean. Also, they're they're not looking at inclusive Atta. Yes,
[35:00] like I said, if they're ninety million members who are members, if
[35:02] they're party members, they cannot follow any faith. They're not looking at inclusivity.
[35:07] They're not saying, okay, let let them follow faith, let them
[35:10] become members so that they're part of the society, part of the administration and
[35:15] can have more to offer. They're okay ostracizing them, isolating them, putting
[35:21] them in a little you know, ghettos in various provinces, and let them
[35:27] live, let them do whatever work they do, and let them lives.
[35:30] That's the idea. And when it stems from such an idea, then obviously
[35:35] people will not be happy with the administration. And that's quite evident, and
[35:38] I think it's only growing. Yeah, So Gita, before we wrap up,
[35:43] just one thing that I wanted to touch upon, which is like that
[35:46] reports indicate that, you know, as part of the strike Hard campaign,
[35:50] Chinese authorities have implemented a series of laws and policies to crackdown on activities they
[35:57] deem as science of extremists. The Hui community in particular, like we have
[36:02] discussed, have been targeted, with members being rounded up and detained in centers
[36:07] and re education camps. Many have been sentenced to prison for engaging in religious
[36:12] and cultural practices such as praying or watching religious content online. Like you said,
[36:16] But you know, when we talk about the Hui, something interesting came
[36:21] up in my research that I just wanted to mention that, And I was
[36:23] reading the one which was published on our website as well by in There today
[36:29] that highlighted that the Hui community has supported the military by capturing Vigers the WHOI
[36:37] perceived the Vigers as having more extremist tendencies compared to their community, which they
[36:45] consider more aligned with the Chinese language and tradition. You when you said about
[36:50] the description of how they look. But for nearly a century, the Hui
[36:53] community has been targeted by the CCP alongside Vigers and Tibetans. Now, I
[37:00] was just wondering that, you know, all three communities they have lagged acceptance
[37:04] of each other's distinct cultural identities. Tibetans have stereotyped Whois as cannibals and have
[37:10] Harvard resentment since the nineteen thirty Sino Tibetan War. Similarly, Vigers have resented
[37:17] Whoi's for imbedding their you know, revolt against the Han majority. So I
[37:23] want to understand that this development of a version between the Viger, the Whoi
[37:30] the Tibetan communities that how did does a version even come to be? And
[37:35] the Chinese government has it played a deliberate role in fueling this hatred among this
[37:40] community? Absolutely, Again a very important question because like I said, h
[37:46] Muslims are very different from Vigo Muslims in how they look and how they look
[37:51] in the descend and see. Even in Tibet now what is called Tibet Autonomous
[37:57] Region, a lot of a lot of the parts of Tibet are parts of
[38:01] Chinese province of Sinsua because and now no longer consider Tibet at all, So
[38:08] that area has gone. The rest of Tibet that is under Chinese control is
[38:14] called Tibet Autonomous Region. Even there they're trying to push the Han Chinese to
[38:19] change the demography. So what is more important for China the Han Chinese?
[38:25] The Han population is very important for China. That is what brings about for
[38:30] them, assimilation and getting the country to look a certain way and change the
[38:37] demography where majority in every province are going to be Han. Now we have
[38:44] one advantage over other Muslims, which is that they are descendants of Han.
[38:52] And if you are Han descendant, even if you have Silk Road immigrant blood,
[39:00] you still more hard Chinese than anything else. So what happens over here,
[39:07] it's interesting. Now. Although religious education for children is officially forbidden by
[39:13] law in China, the CCP allows Muslims to have their children educated in the
[39:19] religion and attend mosques. That's a special status for Muslims. Now the law
[39:25] is enforced on Vigers. Vigers are not allowed to practice, although yes we
[39:30] know that now slowly steadily there has been some movement, but they're not allowed
[39:38] to I've been to Hinchang. It looks very different from what you'd imagine.
[39:45] They say that, oh, they're allowed to practice, so on and so
[39:47] forth. Not really certain amount of their culture is intact in terms of music,
[39:52] but not in terms of religion as such. After the secondary educ is
[40:00] completed, China then allows who students to embark on religious studies under an imam.
[40:07] This does not happen with wagers. So this whole province has had the
[40:14] blessing to be what they are, has had the blessing of the CCP.
[40:19] Which is why I say each leader comes with a different plan. This is
[40:22] chi Jinpings plan saying that we don't want this, we don't want this as
[40:25] well, and that's why the major protests coming out because the Hui Muslims feel
[40:30] a bit betrayed since they have been at the forefront of fighting anything that's that's
[40:38] even bordering extreme Islam. Yeah, and they have been the face of that
[40:45] moderate working class, you know Muslims in China. One more important thing is
[40:53] that Whui Muslims who are employed by the state are allowed to fast during Ramzan.
[41:00] The fact that they have employment under the state, they cannot they practice
[41:06] their religion. They can build mosques, they have children who attend mosques who
[41:12] so which is why this was a more cohesive Islamic community within China. And
[41:19] if you see their mosques with the minerals and the domes, quite prominent.
[41:22] Actually it was quite a beautiful structure. So what we're trying to say is
[41:28] that they have been part of the Chinese society, society and systems being in
[41:35] government positions, so on and so forth. So they were for the longest
[41:38] taking on vigors and the others who, like I said, there have been
[41:43] in sittence in Shin Chiang have been taking them on. And today they are
[41:46] in a position where because of present Chi Chin pings plans of unification of China
[41:54] and Sinaization of China, we are looking at an egg substantial threat to the
[42:01] to the Hui Muslims, and that will play out in the coming days too,
[42:07] Hannah. But this was important, important to understand that WHOI Muslims because
[42:10] of their descendency, are different, yes, from from the vegans. Yes,
[42:16] yes, and that's very important. And I wanted to understand this because
[42:21] the animosity that is developing, you know, between the minorities. That is
[42:25] also kind of feeling how Chinese they are divided. They are dividing, yes,
[42:30] and divide and rule. But yes, I think that pretty much sums
[42:35] our discussion. But before we go, because I just wanted to mention this
[42:38] and not touched upon this. But we have discussed in the past episodes about
[42:43] the world reacting to it and why you know, the first kind of reaction
[42:47] or condemnation we expect when Muslim minorities are you know, suffering is from the
[42:52] Muslim nations, the Islamic nations, right be Turkey, the entire Gulf countries,
[42:59] but they have been silent. And you know, I think the G
[43:01] twenty Kashmid issue was the one where Turkey, you know, they didn't visit,
[43:07] they did not attend, owing to the fact that did not approve of
[43:10] what happened in Kashmid and they stand with how Pakistan views Kashmid and the revocation
[43:15] of Article three seventy. Then I remember when we were discussing Saudi Arabia,
[43:20] we had this entire topic of discussion that you know, the token outrage that
[43:25] we see from the Gulf countries. I think it was the time when the
[43:30] Pushama controversy had happened and they had objected. The Gulf countries are objected,
[43:35] but that was kind often token, you know outrage. But now this,
[43:38] you know, this hippocritical stance, the silence over these sex persecution in China.
[43:45] Can we not say that, you know, the OYC is silently endorsing
[43:50] the suppression of weaker Muslims or Hui Muslims in particular. Yes, we know
[43:53] the dead trap and everything that you know, they owe to China and it
[43:57] cannot just go against it. But still there's about hippocritical stance. I mean,
[44:00] how do we even yes, justify But then again, you know,
[44:06] the hypocrisy exists in the world of diplomacy to no end. Anna. On
[44:12] the one hand, you have countries that want to isolate China, and that's
[44:16] why they raise the question of wager Muslims and the status of wager Muslims or
[44:21] the state of affairs of Muslims in China, even the Muslims and the breaking
[44:28] down or crackdown on the on the community and their mosques that comes from the
[44:32] West, particularly US, Europe, Canada, UK, so on and so
[44:40] forth. Why because they're right now at this point in time, they're trying
[44:45] to contain China. West Asia is in a very um, very different situation
[44:52] because they have huge ties with China. So while they write and while the
[44:58] OYC writes a lot about like you said, no Kashmir, you will see
[45:01] very waterdown statements. There are statements that come for weaker Muslims as well,
[45:06] but waterdown statements on China. If you ask specific leaders on the situation in
[45:13] China, there will be no country statement, m Philby. You know,
[45:16] there will be one statement, but there's no country statement that is coming condemning
[45:22] China. And same goes for the whole of East and for Asia as well.
[45:28] While there are some you know, cosmetic statements that you'd see from certain
[45:35] countries and leaders, it's not hard hitting. Yeah, But there again,
[45:39] I ask the same thing to America. The same standards should apply for if
[45:45] they're questioning the state of minorities in China, they should be questioning their own
[45:51] allies for the state of minorities in those countries. Women in Afghanistan, of
[45:57] course, that certainly is being raised in a question because it's the Taliban and
[46:00] nobody cares. But Saudi Arabia, Yue, you know, the whole of
[46:05] West Asia and the kingdoms. The rules don't are not the same for for
[46:12] all the countries you know, coming from one country, be the United States
[46:16] of America, European country Zone, and so forth. But we've seen more
[46:21] hypocrisy when it comes to China than any other country, including Pakistan. The
[46:29] you name the prime minister, every prime minister, of foreign minister when asked
[46:34] about wager Muslims, they said, oh, well, I'm not really aware.
[46:37] That's what Imran Kan said, Yeah, exactly, feigned ignorance, yes
[46:42] to that extent, to be scared of China and do not make a negative
[46:47] comment about China when they In fact, Chinese Foreign Minister Wangi was invited as
[46:52] a special guest to the forty eighth Council of Foreign Ministers of the OZA in
[46:57] Pakistan while more than a you know million Wigan Muslims are currently held in concentrated
[47:04] concentration camps in China, and he also you know, the Wager Muslims of
[47:07] shin Xiang. They face accusations of genus side and cultural aggression. But here
[47:14] during the OYC event, wang He was the platform to promote the invited India.
[47:19] Also Dan then Pakistan said the same thing, how can you invite India
[47:22] when they're doing this in Kishmis they're doing that to minorities across the country.
[47:27] Because it was Faraj who sat, and Saudi Arebia said nothing doing. She's
[47:31] a guest, She's going to sit, So they walked out. Now in
[47:36] response, China has invited Pakistan has invited China. You can say whatever you
[47:40] want to have diplomacy. Nobody cares about what actually has happened to people on
[47:47] the ground because of that, they really cared about that. There would have
[47:51] been so much that the countries would have been doing for the minorities in any
[47:57] part of the world, but they connect to strategic gains, national interests,
[48:05] and uh and regional prospects, and in that it's the people who lose exactly
[48:13] like no space for principles, ethics, just cold, barbaric, tactical you
[48:20] know, diplomacy over bargaining over you know, tangible agreeing gains. Yes,
[48:25] so thank you guitar. I think it was a wonderful episode, very enriching,
[48:31] you know. I think people should give it a listen and refer like
[48:35] share this episode with others who want to understand about the state of state of
[48:40] the weaker Muslims in China, the minorities and amides that also we have the
[48:45] Huei Muslims, Muslims now being targeted by the China. Yes, so please
[48:52] do let us know what you thought about this episode. The number you can
[48:54] reach out to us is eight five, double eight nine, double six,
[48:58] double line six and the email ID is spots at the rate in there today
[49:01] dot com. So thank you. Well come again next week with a different
[49:06] topic. Thank you, Bye,

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