# Why the Pentagon Leaks Cause Damage More to Ukraine Than Russia | Geeta's World Ep 40

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 18 Apr 2023, 1 h 04 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53572812/18_apr_23_geetas_world_ep_40_mix_usa_leaked_docs_128.mp3

Leaked documents allegedly from the US Department of Defense have caused concerns about security breaches and potential diplomatic fallout. One revelation suggests that the US may have exaggerated the number of Russian military casualties in the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. So Is it because of the US's penetration of Russian military operations that Russia is fighting an almost lost war? And doesn't such sort of surveillance pose the risk of the US' allies wanting to keep a distance from it, and turning towards China, the other major power?

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. Leaked documents allegedly from the US Department of Defense
[0:09] have caused concerns about security breaches and potential diplomatic fallout. One revelation suggests that
[0:16] the US may have exaggerated the number of Russian military casualties in the ongoing conflict
[0:22] in Ukraine. So is it because of the US's penetration of Russian military operations
[0:27] that Russia is fighting an almost lost war? No, it doesn't call Russia
[0:33] because this only exposes how vulnerable Ukraine is and doesn't such sort of surveillance post
[0:39] the risk of the US's allies wanting to keep a distance from it and turning
[0:44] towards China, which is the other major power. That time will only tell
[0:48] when you are aligned in your thinking. There's a huge difference in doing business
[0:53] with China, with Russia and doing it with America. Hello, I'm anna
[0:59] PREDESSIONI India Today TV's Foreign Affairs editor Geta Mohun Where with Githa's astute and incisive
[1:06] crasp of world affairs, we delve into all that is urgent and pressing in
[1:11] world politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global ambitions
[1:18] of being a Vishwa guru. Let's unravel Githa's word. The documents leaked contained
[1:26] classified markings, with some labeled top secret, which is the highest level of
[1:30] classification. The initial emergence of the documents can be traced back to photos which
[1:37] were posted on discord, which is an online social media platform that's popular with
[1:41] gamers, and later it was shared on turk Shaker Central. As a matter
[1:46] of fact, based on a quote unquote trail of digital evidence, US federal
[1:52] authorities have arrested a twenty one year old Jack Tex Sierra, who is a
[1:57] member of the National Guard. Among the revelations contained in the League documents is
[2:05] the suggestion that the US may have exaggerated the number of Russian military casualties in
[2:09] the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. In addition, there are details about the serious
[2:15] air defense shortages faced by Ukrainian forces and a risk of running out of anti
[2:22] aircraft missiles completely by May. The documents also revealed that US intelligence officials were
[2:29] pessimistic about Ukraine's prospects for a new attack in the spring, saying Kiev could
[2:35] fall well short of recapturing territory seized by Russia. The Leagues have also raised
[2:40] concerns about the security of classified information and the potential damage to US's credibility and
[2:47] diplomatic relations with other countries, particularly Ukraine and its allies South Korea, Israel,
[2:54] and Egypt. So in this episode, Guita and I will try to
[2:58] understand what the League Pentagon documents tell us about US spy efforts and what damage,
[3:05] if any, could the League's cause. Also if the revelations so that
[3:09] the Leagues bear have fundamentally altered the overall picture of the Russia Ukraine War.
[3:15] So I'll welcome Geetha. Hi, Githa, how are you keeping? Not
[3:20] keeping too well? A little under the weather? Now I have to get
[3:24] a COVID test up to see whether this cold a bit of body ache is
[3:30] because of COVID or not. Yeah, actually, I mean it so really
[3:35] on the rise, especially in Deli. It is on the rise in Delhi,
[3:38] and people have to be careful and mask up all over again, true,
[3:44] I do you know? And despite that scene, so unless at everybody
[3:47] masks up and is careful, it's difficult to prevent exactly. It depends on
[3:53] how it's more depends on how everybody is behaving rather than following all the precautions
[4:00] that we have to. Really sorry to bother you at this point of time,
[4:04] not at all, But this is an interesting one. I've been following
[4:09] it through the week. In fact, our show on India Today called World
[4:13] Today, focused primarily and majorly on the Pentagon files, so it'll be really
[4:18] interesting to break it down for our listeners. By the way, Geta,
[4:23] I was wondering that before, you know, since we're discussing technology and security
[4:27] breaches in this particular episode, so I was just wondering. You must be
[4:30] aware of chat GPT. Of course everyone is of the artificial intelligence. But
[4:36] today is something which goes by your name, which is called Geta, Geta
[4:42] Ai Geeta GPT or something like that. Are you aware of it? No?
[4:48] Really, what does it do? I think it pertains to something religious
[4:55] of something religious scriptures, if I'm not wrong. It's about some excerpts or
[5:00] shlokas from Hugbad Gita. Yeah, oh so basically far removed from the person
[5:10] me. It is to do with the Holy Scripture. Yes, but it
[5:16] was quite interesting, very different about no connections whatsoever, very different your introduction
[5:26] was almost click baity, you know where I'm like, oh really, no,
[5:34] no, nothing about me. Actually I can see it. It says
[5:38] little Krishna rather Krishna. But yeah, I'm sure your name would be some
[5:43] sort of derivation from this self. You know, there's the mythological connection that
[5:49] we have in the Indian context. Oh yeah, of course, of course.
[5:54] I mean my parents name may of course, but entire podcast names on
[6:00] you. So I had to mention it from gapt yes, But anyway,
[6:09] let's begin. So for our listeners, what we can do is to understand
[6:13] this topic more correctly, more with more nuance. What we can do is,
[6:18] like, first, in the first half of the episode, we'll try
[6:21] to understand how the documents were leaked first of all, the all the speculations,
[6:26] all security breaches, etc. And then in the later half and we
[6:30] can try to gauge what the leaks contain and what their repercussions could be.
[6:35] So first and foremost, geta let's begin by addressing this fact that how and
[6:42] where did the leaked documents first emerge? Now, according to the investigative website,
[6:47] which is called belling Cat, the documents initially surfaced in photos posted on
[6:54] discord, which is an online social media platform popular with gamers. Now the
[7:00] documents also bear classified markings, with some labeled quote and top secret, which
[7:05] is the highest level of classification, and appear to be briefing slides prepared by
[7:11] the US Military's Chief of Staff. Now, the leaked documents, they had
[7:17] already appeared on social media as far back as January and also with some dating
[7:25] back to March. Now, if the leaks were available online a month earlier,
[7:30] or probably like two three months earlier, then I was wondering what took
[7:33] it so long to, you know, finally be reported officially. What would
[7:38] have happened in this lapse of time. Well, basically what happened was that
[7:43] if you see where the documents were being put up, the snapshots of the
[7:48] documents and the maps, not just a labeled top secret. There were different
[7:54] categories and greetings of the labels, which were from from top secret to no
[8:01] form which means not for foreign nationals, secret, confidential, sensitive, human,
[8:09] which means human source intelligence. This is very important, Anna, and
[8:13] I'll come back to why humans is very important. Special intelligence FISA again includes
[8:18] electronic surveillance activities under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance ACT, so things that they were
[8:24] doing abroad with foreign countries, foreign organizations and leaders, so a lot of
[8:31] that is exposed. It first came up in through these online gaming chat groups,
[8:41] which is where the individual who has been arrested and is in custody now
[8:48] started putting it out. And he started putting it out. That's Jack tex
[8:54] Sierra, twenty one year old Massachusetts Air National guardsman, who had ACT access
[9:01] to these documents and had started putting out these top secret, secret clearance cleared
[9:07] documents since twenty twenty one. Since then, once you know, New York
[9:13] Times got a whiff of it, they were the first ones to then publish
[9:18] the story, and since then we've not seen an end to the repercussions the
[9:24] ramifications these League files could have on America and America's foreign policy, be their
[9:33] own national interest or compromising the interest of other countries who are their allies and
[9:39] partners. Now why do I say that, You know, in today's world,
[9:41] Anna, when we're looking at global partnerships, the most important and one
[9:46] that every country holds very dearly too, is protecting each other's interests, protecting
[9:54] each other's secrets. And a lot of america allies today's stand quite exposed.
[10:03] And also some of the documents are quite a revelation to the allies in what
[10:09] America's assessment is of those countries. So in both ways, a lot of
[10:18] their interests stand compromised. More importantly, when I say humans, that is
[10:24] human intelligence, you know, intelligence gathering through human sources wherein because the documents
[10:31] also are giving the source of where they're getting these intelli inputs from those human
[10:37] sources, those sources now are compromised in their respective countries. Now, imagine
[10:45] if it were in China and you're getting something from It's just an example.
[10:50] If you're getting information from China and the source is compromised, imagine what will
[10:56] happen to that individual. So that is one of the biggest warries right now
[11:03] for the administration. For Biden administration so ensure that sources are secure and that
[11:09] their lives are not risked in any way. But putting the documents out itself
[11:16] means that they have already risked the that that that the sources and their lives
[11:22] do stand under great and grave risk. And there is only that much that
[11:31] the US administration can do right now. In the past few days, if
[11:35] you've seen A lot has to do with damage control. And why do I
[11:39] say that. We'll talk about the damage control and the messaging starting with Ukraine
[11:45] and the responses that you're getting from Ukraine, from Korea, from even from
[11:50] China and Russia, who are maybe you know, smiling year to year because
[11:54] especially Russia on their on America's assessment of Ukraine's war capabilities. So a lot,
[12:03] you know, to question over here. But again, this is one
[12:07] of the biggest leagues since the twenty thirteen leagues, whether it's No A or
[12:16] Julian Assange's big leagues, No very interesting. Actually, yes, we'll come
[12:20] to that, will come to all the revelations and the breaches and the diplomatic
[12:26] angle to it, you know, the geopolitical angle to it. Let's just
[12:31] focus a little bit on regarding the person who has been, you know,
[12:35] accused of accessing and leaking the documents. The FBI has arrested, like I
[12:39] said in the introduction, itself has arrested a twenty one year old who's as
[12:46] an Air National guardsman in the Massachusetts suspected of being responsible for the league,
[12:52] like you also mentioned. So this person, tex Text Sierras, believed to
[12:56] have been the leader of an online in chart group where hundreds of photographs of
[13:01] secret and top secret documents were first uploaded from late last year to March now.
[13:09] The online group call itself tug Shaker Central, which is made up of
[13:15] twenty to thirty young men and teenagers who are brought together by an enthusiasm for
[13:20] guns, military gear, and video games. Also, racist language was a
[13:26] common feature of the group. Apparently, the guy also appeared in a video
[13:30] shouting shouting a series of racial and anti Semitic slurs into the camera, then
[13:37] firing, you know, several rounds of rounds at a target. So I
[13:41] was wondering, like do all these things add up or you know, do
[13:46] you send some foul play in it? In any way? Like doesn't it
[13:52] raise questions that on whose watch were the league's allowed to happen? I m
[13:58] at this point, and I it's too early to say whether if, whether
[14:01] if there were others who are complicit in uh in leaking these files, and
[14:07] whether if the individual who has been who is now in custody Jack was just
[14:15] upon for now, it just seems like one also has to look at and
[14:20] question on who are the young you know, officers or young individuals who are
[14:30] who are taken in absorbed into forces and are given access to such sensitive information,
[14:37] whether they have the mental capacity and capability to one absorb sink in digest
[14:46] and then use it in the right manner. We have seen in the recent
[14:50] pasty Julian Assange Edward Snowden a very different cases if you compare them to Jack.
[14:58] There are still a lot of questions that remain unanswered. Like you said,
[15:01] the conversations, that he was having, the manner in which he did
[15:05] it, where he did it, if he was putting it out, putting
[15:09] it up. Since twenty one, it just seemed like nobody was noticing that
[15:13] he was putting these documents up on groups where which was violative of their own
[15:22] national secrets rules laws an act. Having said that when Edward Snowden and Julian
[15:30] Assange anna leaked documents or made stop secret files public, they did it for
[15:37] a reason. Julian Assange to show the to show what the American diplomatic cables
[15:45] contain and how detrimental it is to the interests of some countries. Edward Snordon
[15:52] to talk about snooping and how surveillance of American citizens is highly prevalent. This
[16:00] individual does not seem it does not seem like there's a pattern to the leaks,
[16:03] as though he knew exactly what he wanted to expose. There is no
[16:08] pattern to show that, yes he was he basically was looking to expose the
[16:15] Biden administration or the American administration, the Intelligence Agency of America. It just
[16:23] seems like for now, I'm only saying this because there's only that much in
[16:29] terms of details that has really come out. While he's sitting and faces years
[16:34] in prison if convicted of his charges. There still is no link of Jack
[16:41] with any other individual or organization as of now. Again, we'll have to
[16:47] wait and see what the investigations really throw up. For now, so while
[16:52] the agencies are quite tight left, we are yet to understand the extent of
[17:00] damage that these documents have done and the intent of the league. For now,
[17:07] those details are not out. But for the benefit of our listeners,
[17:12] let's just profile Jack Tech Sarah, who's a twenty one year old We already
[17:21] mentioned he was an ammon in the Massachusetts Air National Guard. He faces charges
[17:29] of retaining a lot of top secret documents, and we'll have to again wait
[17:37] and see the case and the fire and the chart sheet that will be filed
[17:40] against him. But again, since May twenty twenty two, according to reports,
[17:45] we're saying he was serving as an E three Amen first class and was
[17:51] stationed at the Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts. He had access to
[17:57] these very insitive classified documents and had access to the SCI which is a which
[18:06] is a highly class part of highly classified programs, according to reports. So
[18:15] while they're still investigating the matter, we'll have to see whether this is a
[18:18] boy who just spent rogue or whether if there was intent ingoing rogue, and
[18:25] whether he is connected to or any organization or any other individual who was working
[18:32] or who are working against America's interests, you know, as an aside,
[18:36] I mean, as I read online, you know, there was some speculations
[18:41] and some allegations made that the concerned group, which is called Talk Shaker Central,
[18:47] that is allegedly supposed to be like a right wing extremist only community.
[18:52] So is it like a propaganda against the US government. Look, that's what
[18:56] I'm saying, Anna, he could have been part of these groups and chats,
[19:00] but I don't see a larger program where they really wanted to take on
[19:07] the establishment. So we have to wait for the complete detailsful extent of the
[19:14] investigations to really be made public for us to understand. Even if he was
[19:18] part of this group, and if he was sharing it with them, it
[19:22] was in a space that was that was not absolutely public. It is public
[19:29] to the extent that if you enter that room you will you will have access
[19:33] to those documents. But if you do not, and it's not like it's
[19:37] it was, if you google it, it would have been made available or
[19:42] you would have been able to see it. So we do not know what
[19:45] the intent was, whether if he was just sharing to show off, whether
[19:48] if he was just sharing because these people thought alike and they thought, look,
[19:52] look what the administration is doing, so on and so forth. But
[19:57] was the intent to really put it out there for allies to know, for
[20:03] national security interests to be compromised. That certainly has to still be you know,
[20:10] it's still out there for us to learn about. But yeah, interesting
[20:14] to note that. And you know, as I was reading up, I
[20:17] think it appeared in the garden if I'm not mistaken, so's it sites the
[20:21] report by a twenty twenty report to Congress from the National Counterintelligence and Security Center,
[20:29] which says that more than a million US citizens they have security clearances to
[20:34] view secret information. So I mean secret information. I mean that's like I
[20:40] don't know what exactly secret information implies here, as in like is there a
[20:47] proper bifurcation or is it like a generic thing? So I think what they're
[20:52] mentionally see, there are different gradings like I just mentioned, you know,
[20:57] violable, They're different gradings for any document, whether if it is top secret
[21:03] or whether if it is classified as no form, which is not for foreign
[21:08] nationals, risk sensitive, you know secret, just top secret or confidential.
[21:15] So there's different grading for different documents. Now, who has access and clearance
[21:21] to which government would vary. And if you just take the if you just
[21:26] consider the number of people who are part of the establishment, the number of
[21:30] people who are part of the military intelligence, number of people who are part
[21:34] of the diplomatic core, people who are in important positions in various sectors of
[21:42] various industries, all of them would have access to certain government documents that might
[21:49] have a top secret, secret or confidential labels. So if you look at
[21:56] the report, it would talk about all kinds of secret documents, but some
[22:00] secret documents could just be about the biofield sector or a nuclear energy sector.
[22:08] It might not really have the kind of impact that these kind of top secret
[22:15] documents when out in the open have, But if you look at numbers,
[22:18] yes there could be. They could be in scores and scores who really have
[22:22] access to secret documents, And that goes for any country depending on the grade,
[22:26] depending on which sector we're talking about. In terms of top secret government
[22:32] documents. Now, even in commerce industry, commerce ministry or their Department of
[22:37] Commerce, a lot of documents are graded top secret confidential. They don't have
[22:42] to do particularly with national security, but they have to do with negotiations that
[22:49] are underway that could compromise the negotiation itself free trade agreement deal. If the
[22:55] two countries are in conversation with for example, India and the United States of
[23:00] America, any integrity details are not made public build the negotiations are complete,
[23:07] and hence most of the documents would be labeled secret, confidential, top secret.
[23:14] So the number that you're speaking of contains a generic number. It's data.
[23:21] It's data that these many million people know or have access to secret files
[23:26] in America. But that could be from any sector, any of the important
[23:30] departments we're talking about very specifically, Pentagon leagues and Pentagon's documents are accessible to
[23:41] not all these millions that you've just spoken of. It would be confined to
[23:47] specific number, might not be small number, because Pentagon also shares details with
[23:52] all their diplomatic missions, not all as depending on who they're dealing with,
[24:00] they do share details with that particular diplomatic mission. All the details do go
[24:06] to White House if and when required, as per one's needs and requirements.
[24:12] So there are different grades, different levels. But we are today discussing Pentagon
[24:18] leagues, which might not have been accessible to quite a few, but a
[24:22] lot of people now here is what I'm saying. A lot of people from
[24:26] the senior most to the junior most would have access because a lot of work
[24:33] is done by the younger officers and they do need access to these files.
[24:37] And it seems like this one individual also had access to the files and he
[24:44] decided to start sharing it with the group that he's part of. He are
[24:49] interesting. So now let's come to some of the key revelations, you know,
[24:55] pertaining to especially pertaining to the Russia Ukraine War. So one paper suggests
[25:00] that the number of Russian military casualties in the Ukraine conflict may have been exaggerated
[25:07] by the United States, as the estimates presented were, you know, significantly
[25:11] lower than the confirmed US numbers. Now. Conversely, the number of Ukrainian
[25:18] military debts that also appears to be much higher than official figures now. Besides
[25:25] that, apart from this, US intelligence officials expressed pessimism about Ukraine's ability to
[25:30] recapture territory which was seized by Russia and the spring, citing serious air defense
[25:37] shortages and a risk of running out of anti aircraft missiles by May. So,
[25:42] you know, I was wondering, that is it because of the US's
[25:47] close monitoring and in depth knowledge of Russian military operations, including you know,
[25:53] information about targets and plans to reward soldiers for damaging or destroying NATO tanks,
[26:02] that that you know, like Russia is fighting an almost lost war. Well,
[26:07] um, interestingly put anna, But if you look at the kind of
[26:12] penetration according to the files, the penetration that America has or had within the
[26:21] Russian military, military intelligence, the Wagner Group, all of that, it
[26:26] seems like they knew exactly what was happening. But look at what was happening
[26:30] on the ground. Uh. They also said that Ukraine's war capabilities were weakening,
[26:37] that their air defense capability will be close to nil in some time.
[26:42] That that that the that the ammunition was depleting, and that the the Ukrainians
[26:52] three hundred air defense system will completely be depleted by May second, according to
[26:57] these reports. So on the one hand, you're listening to your looking at
[27:03] you know exactly what Russia's plans are. But on the other hand, while
[27:10] you're saying that Ukraine will lose its air defense systems in the same breadth when
[27:15] he was asked, when Biden was asked whether if they're going to send the
[27:19] F sixteenth, he said, no, they don't need it. What does
[27:22] that say about America today? And it is embarrassing that America, on the
[27:27] one hand, was continues to refuse F sixteens to Ukraine, but internally admits
[27:34] to the fact that Ukraine will lose out, is losing out and will have
[27:41] no air defense systems come May second, which is not that far away.
[27:45] So what does this expose? It actually exposes America where on the one hand,
[27:51] in public, they're saying we're there for Ukraine, we will send this
[27:53] to Ukraine. That to Ukraine and their own internal assessment is terrible. Of
[27:59] Ukraine more capabilities, and to avoid that embarrassment, who comes to America's rescue.
[28:07] It's not just the Biden administration, so on and so forth, it's
[28:11] actually the Ukrainians. Now, they came out because they also had to save
[28:18] face, not just you know, for the American administration, but for the
[28:22] Zelenski government itself. So they came out and the Defense Minister of Ukraine,
[28:27] Reznikov, actually said that it was very unpleasant to hear things from the League,
[28:36] that they have reviewed the information and that a lot of the information and
[28:41] now I'm quoting him here. I quote and I say, there is a
[28:45] lot of information there there which does not correspond to reality. This is what
[28:51] he's saying. Which is by saying this, Ukraine is trying to say that
[28:56] not everything in their assessment is correct. One and secondly, maybe what the
[29:03] documents that have been put not all of them are are bona fide, Not
[29:07] all of them are are real. There could be some which you know,
[29:12] which are doctored so or fabricated truth. So, so all that all these
[29:21] statements are being made because they do not want to lose face. They're trying
[29:26] to save face because it is embarrassing that America thinks that Ukraine does not have
[29:30] the capability and even and if they're thinking that, then their statements in public,
[29:36] Biden's speeches and statements in public do not correspond to the kind of assessment
[29:44] that Pentagon is making of Ukraine's capabilities. So that certainly was an embarrassment for
[29:49] Russia. It's a different thing altogether. Now Russian presidential spokesperson came out and
[29:56] he said that the fact the United States and here again I'd like to quote
[30:03] him because it's it's very aptly put by Dmitri pest Coffee says, and I
[30:08] quote the fact, the United States has long started spying on various heads of
[30:12] states, especially in the European capitals. It has repeatedly popped up, unquote,
[30:18] what is he trying to say over a year that while the smiling year
[30:22] two years saying okay, these leagues are interesting, it seems like they were
[30:26] spying on Zelenski itself, which again is part of the part of the documents
[30:30] that Zelenski was spied on. And Russia reiterating what it has always said that
[30:37] this is not the first time that Russias that America has got spying on allies.
[30:41] They've done it earlier too, especially in European capitals. Why European capitals
[30:45] was mentioned by Russia is because they're talking about how there has been a NATO
[30:52] movement eastwards from Central Europe eastwards into eastern Europe and Ukraine being the last of
[31:02] the important bastions that they would want that they would want to be a part
[31:08] of me too and the European Union. So the narrative building by America,
[31:14] the narrative building by West is what Russia is talking about. I'm not saying
[31:18] it's true or not, just talking about what Russian and how Russia has projected
[31:22] this but again does not vote well for America that is now caught not just
[31:27] spying on eavesdropping on Zelenski, but spying on allies Korea, for example,
[31:36] Now the Korean leadership is having a problem because the opposition is asking questions as
[31:41] to what really is happening. Then again on Ukraine and the war, the
[31:45] fact that Latvia, Serbia, Egypt have been named. And one of the
[31:51] biggest things, biggest national security hazard right now is the fact that the report.
[31:59] One of the documents, Anna actually says that that's a hundred special operations
[32:06] personnel of NATO members, over hundred of them which belonging to the US,
[32:13] to the UK, Serbia, Britain, and and Latvia. So the US,
[32:20] UK, France, Serbia, and Latvia, these are the countries,
[32:24] if I'm not wrong, So the country is so the fact that they're saying
[32:29] that these many countries and their special operations forces are active on the ground in
[32:36] Ukraine. Now, Russia for the longest has been saying you can provide if
[32:40] you want to. We say that we consider that also NATO intervention. But
[32:45] if any soldier is comes on Ukrainian soil to fight the war, then Russia
[32:53] will consider it NATO intervention. Which is the reason why Ukrainian soldiers have been
[33:00] taken to the UK, to Germany two other countries for training purposes, like
[33:06] the Leopards. That Germany wanted to send Leopard tanks, they had to take
[33:10] Ukrainian soldiers to train them and then send the tanks. The planes that are
[33:15] coming, if they're not Soviet era, because Ukraine always had Russian planes,
[33:19] if they're not Soviet era, then these guys have to be taken to those
[33:23] countries like Britain to be trained on the fighter jets and then be sent by
[33:29] because those countries cannot send their pilots to fight the war. That would mean
[33:36] NATO intervention. Now, what does this top secret document do. This stop
[33:42] secret labeled document actually tells the world that NATO presence is already there in Ukraine,
[33:51] because of which there have been denials. France denied it, Britain denied
[33:57] it, saying that don't take you has classified information at face value. What
[34:01] is every nation doing? They're all debunking the story and the League itself.
[34:07] Why because their national interests are compromised? Should they accept that Brits are on
[34:14] Ukrainian soil? That tant amounts to intervention, That amounts to NATO entering the
[34:22] war and nobody wants that. According to the league's Latvia has seventeen personnel,
[34:29] which is apparently the second highest of the special forces in Ukraine, US and
[34:36] France fourteen and fifteen Serbia. Very interesting Serbia because Serbia still has ties and
[34:45] engages Russia. Refuse to sanction in Russia on the one hand, but on
[34:51] the other according to these League documents, they've agreed to supply arms to Kiev.
[34:55] Now where does that place Serbia. They're all pretty vulnerable because because of
[35:01] their geostrategic position, where do they sit. And then now you've compromised their
[35:07] being by by by the classified documents that say that they agreed to sell arms
[35:13] to Key. In fact, if anything, those arms had reached Key already
[35:16] according to the reports. The other important one is Egypt, again to do
[35:22] with war that, according to the documents, Egypt was secretly planning to supply
[35:30] rockets and munitions to Russia. Yes, Egypt has sent forty thousand rockets to
[35:35] Russia. Here it's the it's the flip, it's it's it's it's it's the
[35:39] it's the other way around. Egypt has is one of the biggest um is
[35:47] a country with which gets the maximum military aid from the United States of America.
[35:53] Why do they get it because again of their position where they're sitting,
[35:58] and the government and so on and so forth. Why stability that's required?
[36:04] Yeah, And the point is that why would the president, the Egyptian president,
[36:09] risk relations with the US. And the US provides one point four billion
[36:14] dollars a year to Egypt. Yeah, about one point three closer to one
[36:17] point four billion dollars in military aid financial aid to Egypt. So again Egypt
[36:24] has denied the report, saying that no such thing. There are no plans
[36:29] of selling ammunition and weapons to Russia. So all the reports to do with
[36:37] Ukraine Russia Ukraine war, while there might be truth to it if you see
[36:40] the documents, how you know, deeply researched and prepared they are. But
[36:47] all the countries, including Ukraine, have come out and actually debunked the documents
[36:52] because why Allied secrets stand compromise, national interests stand compromised, and like I
[37:00] was seeing earlier, your sources stand compromised. Yeah, that's quite fascinating of
[37:06] you to say that, I mean, really really fascinating observations, Kita.
[37:10] And in fact, you know, like I was reading up and in fact,
[37:15] some Ukrainians they welcomed the leak, hoping that it would emphasize what President
[37:21] Zelenski has been saying for you know, months now, that Ukraine urgently needs
[37:27] more ammunition and weapons to expel the Russian forces. A lot of them,
[37:32] a lot of their manner, and we were there, a lot of them
[37:36] could not understand why the West's reluctance they could not understand the concept of why
[37:43] is NATO not declaring their place their Ukrainian air space is a no fly zone,
[37:49] because that would mean that if Russia violates it, which Russia would have,
[37:52] then NATO would have had to intervene. So a lot of them,
[37:57] the common man in Ukraine is looking these documents and saying, see, this
[38:01] is what Zelenski has been talking about. But then again, Zelenski also has
[38:06] not been honest. Then about is his own capabilities? They're saying depleting,
[38:10] but nobody said that it would deplete by May. Second, they didn't make
[38:15] the information public. Secondly, they said there's an entire report on how Ukrainian
[38:22] military debts have been under reported. That is on Zelenski. Why, because
[38:29] everything is information warfare. When they say that these many that Ukrainians killed,
[38:34] these many Russian forces, you'll say Russia saying, oh no, it was
[38:37] not two thousand and pus two hundred. Similarly, when they say we killed
[38:40] these many Ukrainian soldiers, they say, no, it's not this. So
[38:44] everybody's underplaying their losses because this is a war and a lot of the war
[38:50] is being fought online, which is information warfare. So what you put out
[38:54] there, how you put out there is how the country receives and perceives how
[39:00] years Zelenski is being perceived by his people is very important, and you might
[39:07] become a war hero, but to to last, to be able to continue
[39:14] remaining in the good books, you have to win that war. And that
[39:17] cannot happen unless and until there is support coming, unless and until they have
[39:22] the information warfare going the way it is. But also that Ukraine will have
[39:29] to clean up a lot of its own, you know, its own house,
[39:32] because there are allegations of corruption now emerging. So the longer it takes,
[39:38] you will see more problems for Zelenski than for Putin, because in Russia
[39:45] nobody's questioning Putin's policies. Although yes, there are a lot of people who
[39:50] are very upset with the war itself. That has to do with their close
[39:52] connection to Ukraine. They're from a little ties to Ukraine. They never thought
[39:58] that they'd ever go to war with Ukraine, so they're questioning that and of
[40:02] course depleting resources in increase in inflation, so on and so forth. But
[40:09] what these Pentagon files really put out bring out is the fact that anna that
[40:17] there is underreporting that they're not reporting casualty figures in how they should and UH
[40:27] and that certainly again is a huge embarrassment for the Ukrainian administration, which is
[40:32] why they say that do not believe everything that you see in these reports.
[40:37] Like I remember also that I have I was having a conversation with one of
[40:42] the one of my colleagues here in to day and he was saying that right
[40:47] when the war was reached by Russia in Ukraine, he just said that the
[40:53] kind of hold that Ukraine has over the media, over its media, that
[40:58] plays a really vital rule. Of course, of course it's huge, and
[41:01] that is kind of intelligent as well. It is and that's how it should
[41:06] be. But what has what have the documents done? They have actually compromised
[41:10] Ukraine because it has exposed Ukraine. It has exposed the fact that Allies are
[41:16] on the ground in Ukraine, serving soldiers are on the ground in Ukraine.
[41:22] Till now. All those UH foreigners we saw in Ukraine were all volunteers.
[41:29] There were there were a lot of breads, there were a lot of Europeans
[41:32] who had come to help Ukraine in their in its war against Russia. But
[41:39] they were all volunteers. They were joining the Ukrainian army. They were joining
[41:45] the Ukrainian special forces or whatever the new you know, uh regiments that were
[41:52] being built to fight the war. Okay, but here in this report it
[41:57] says more than hundred special forces of uk US lats Via, Serbia, France
[42:05] are in Ukraine. That changes the entire dynamics. Now see, Russia also
[42:12] knows that it cannot sustain a war with NATO, and that's why you've not
[42:15] seen a strong reaction saying now we have proof that NATO is in is on
[42:21] Ukrainian soil, so we will take on NATO. No, they don't want
[42:24] it. They want this limited war where everybody's reluctant, given the global recession,
[42:30] to really take on or the responsibility of winning a war. And so
[42:37] you see, the West has not taken on the responsibility of winning it for
[42:39] Ukraine. And these documents reveal that more starkly than ever before, that they
[42:45] have depleting resources, but nobody's replenishing it. That they're they're underreporting death,
[42:52] and that they in terms of the size of the army Russia versus Ukraine,
[42:59] there is no compared in terms of size of their weaponry, weapon systems,
[43:04] air defense systems. There is no comparison, so it actually exposes the West
[43:08] more than it does Ukraine. But it also shows the reality of the situation
[43:15] on the ground, and in that I'm going back to your question where you
[43:17] said, does it look like a lost war? No, it doesn't for
[43:22] Russia because this only exposes how vulnerable Ukraine is. The America might have in
[43:29] growth and penetration, but if you're not going to use that and back it
[43:35] with weapon systems for Ukraine, this is not a lost war for Russia.
[43:39] It's a lost cause for Ukraine that you're fighting for a lost cause. Forget
[43:45] about being a part of NATO, which is not going to happen till there
[43:50] is stability in Ukraine. Forget about that that aside. Are you ever going
[43:53] to be able to get back the lost territory from Russia if that doesn't happen.
[44:00] Are the two sides ever going to go to the negotiating table if that
[44:02] doesn't happen. Is there any way that Russia is ever going to say,
[44:08] all right, let don Bas be free take the rest? Absolutely not.
[44:14] In Zapparassia, Russia is now in control of the Zapparagia nuclear power plant.
[44:20] So once you have already been declared war criminal, you have already violated all
[44:27] international rules. So many Russian soldiers have lost their lives to capturing because of
[44:36] the capture of these Ukrainian territories in eastern Ukraine. Do you think politically it
[44:42] would be viable for puts Now to say, well, here it is and
[44:45] return the land that Russian spot for So there are so many, so many
[44:52] problems over here, and these documents don't help Ukraine's cause. So if it
[44:58] is it's a lost cause, I would not say I'm not saying it in
[45:01] a very grim manner that as though Ukraine cannot win it back, I hope
[45:07] Ukraine does win it back. I hope there is time when Russia and Ukraine
[45:13] sit and negotiate terms for peace in that region, because it cannot be fraught
[45:20] with violence and instability for all times to come. But it certainly does not
[45:25] look and these documents certainly revealed that it does not look like Ukraine is in
[45:30] a position to take the land back. Is it in a position to sustain
[45:34] a conflict with Russia for a very long period of time? That is the
[45:37] questionnaire, Like you said, I mean, it's like an upturn of whatever
[45:40] we have been seeing or rather made to say, you know, at least
[45:45] in the case of the Russia Ukraine War. Now, like you mentioned Serbia,
[45:49] this is being strengthened by the fact that Serbia, you know, as
[45:52] was portrayed in the media, that was the only European state that refused to
[45:58] put any sanctions on Russia, thereby professing its neutrality to its stands to the
[46:04] war. However, this comes steering down by the documents revealing that Serbia it
[46:10] was sending arms to Ukraine. Well Sagita like, does it then circle back
[46:15] to this impending question that if these accusations are true, then this uh so
[46:22] neutral or whatever stands one country dawns on the global stage is just a facade,
[46:28] not really, because you know, every country has its own interests,
[46:32] economic and strategic. Why would a country want to be seen as a satellite
[46:39] state? I suppose there is there is space and the traditionally they've been very
[46:47] close Serbia and Russia, but the current administration is not known to be very
[46:53] close to or an advocate of the world. So maybe that is one of
[47:01] the reasons why Serbia, in its own right also wanted to engage the West
[47:09] and not look like a country that is going to support so you might even
[47:14] if they're not supporting the war by not sanctioning Russia, the message was clear
[47:19] that they're not going to not engage Russia. It's like India tomorrow. If
[47:25] India has in the Security Council has a stand on Ukraine and says this is
[47:32] not an era of war, does not mean that we are saying that we
[47:37] don't stand with Russia. We still do. In fact, there's an inter
[47:39] Governmental Commission meeting that has been taking place within the past two days. They've
[47:45] been meeting. They've been talking about how to increase trade. But does not
[47:50] mean we do not engage the West. So Serbia is dependent country was trying
[47:54] to do what any country would do in their own own interest, which is
[48:00] continue to engage Russia, not boycott Russia or accept the West sanctions against Russia.
[48:10] But also when engaging the European Union, striving for more greater integration with
[48:16] EU and in that saying okay, they will help them with ammunition. But
[48:22] then how was Serbia doing it? Anna Serbia was doing it in a very
[48:25] secretive manner because they did not want to ryle Russia or Belarus for that matter,
[48:31] and that's the reason why they wanted to keep it a secret, which
[48:37] it no longer is. And either lastly, like you said, I just
[48:40] want to touch upon this factor that you know, every time you also discussed
[48:45] the previous leagues, right, that have happened. So every time this kind
[48:51] of a league happens of classified documents from US government departments, it goes to
[48:57] show, you know, the depth of US intel legions and how closely it
[49:00] spies on both its allies and adversaries. Also, so the recent now you
[49:07] know, the recent leagued documents from the Pentagon, they reveal that the US
[49:12] knows a great deal about the plans being prepared you know, by the Russian
[49:16] military, about Ukraine's military preparedness. And also what like we discussed in the
[49:21] last episode, what Israel's intelligence agency Mussard thought about the recent protests in the
[49:27] country against the Prime Minister Benjamin Nathan Yahoo. So my question here is that
[49:32] such documents they have been leaked before, right, and I think it's safe
[49:37] to assume that the US, Pentagon and even CIA are perfectly clued into what
[49:44] is happening in most major countries. So I was wondering, has there been
[49:49] any sort of pushback against this kind of you know, surveillance by the US
[49:52] on other countries in the past, or do you think that it is these,
[49:58] you know, currently weeks that are so unprecedented that we might actually see
[50:04] even allies like Israel and Ukraine demanding answers from the US administration because you know,
[50:12] if the documents revealed that Ukraine was underprepared as recently as February, then
[50:17] this could embolden Russia to keep up it's offensive. See, every time something
[50:22] like this comes out, there is a pushback. There was a major pushback,
[50:27] pushback after the twenty thirteen wikileakues case, which is why Julian Assange was
[50:32] in so much trouble and this whole case against him, you know, now
[50:39] languishing in a prison. But it all began after WikiLeaks. He was not
[50:45] a bad man before that. After he leaked those cables between the American diplomatic
[50:52] missions and headquarters in DC, there the repercussion, the ramification that they had
[51:00] to suffer went on for quite a while, for actually a few years,
[51:04] if not less, if not more, I'm sorry, if not more so
[51:08] we're seeing that there is every time there is a leak anna, there is
[51:15] a ripple effect, there are ramifications, and there is pushback, and every
[51:21] time you see the kind of snooping and eaves dropping. But also remember that
[51:27] America is not the only country that's doing it. They've been vulnerable to these
[51:30] attacks and expose but does not mean that they're the only country. Every country,
[51:37] every country monitors. So what is happening over here, America is snooping
[51:43] on rivals. America is eaves dropping even on allies. Why are they doing
[51:47] that because most of the allies that they're looking at keeping coreer aside, but
[51:52] others is because they are putting in a lot of money there, so the
[52:00] there are trust issues when you're putting in money, whether if it's in Ukraine,
[52:04] whether it is in West Asia, whether it's in countries in other countries.
[52:08] When you're putting in money, you want to see how it is being
[52:12] used. Be confident of the leadership. But it also speaks volumes of how
[52:17] America looks at leadership in other countries which might not be First world, might
[52:23] not be developed nations. How do they look at it? They look at
[52:28] it from the prism or whether if he's efficient enough doing a job or not,
[52:31] that man over there is not there to do your job. If he
[52:35] starts thinking differently and it does not go well with their own ideas and policies
[52:42] for the future of that country, then he becomes that leader, becomes a
[52:49] pariah or is treated like a pariah. So and Pakistan is a clear example
[52:55] of strong likes and dislikes in leadership. And when the letter was made public
[53:04] of an American diplomat saying that we don't want Imran Khan and then Imran Khan
[53:08] was let go of, it proved that, you know, the establishment in
[53:13] Pakistan is listening to Washington DC. So in this case, also we are
[53:20] looking at wiki the ramifications of WikiLeaks, where there were more than seven hundred
[53:29] thousand, which is seven lagged documents okay that were leaked, which contained numerous
[53:39] instances of how diplomatic missions have our listening posts, how they're listening to and
[53:47] reporting back home of what a country is doing, what the country's leadership is
[53:52] doing, secret conversations, conversations and confidence that's reported back home. Edwards,
[54:00] Nordon League was even more important in terms of uh uh, not not just
[54:07] ties abroad more important to do with their own citizens being snooped on, that
[54:14] their own citizens were not saved, that that America was listening to their own
[54:20] citizens. So what did it bring to light? It brought to light the
[54:24] massive transgressions and in many ways than one, transgressions by America, but also
[54:35] how violated they were of the privacy laws of the country. So all this
[54:40] if you see from from the point of view of how these leagues are perceived
[54:50] and the impact they've had, They've had huge impact, which is why you
[54:53] know, countries can very easily say, of course America, for the it's
[54:58] not the first time that we are seeing like Russia, I said, it's
[55:00] not the first time that we're seeing America snoop on its allies. This has
[55:04] been happening forever, primarily to do with European leaders, and that's only because
[55:09] of the past leaks where it was quite evident and clear in how America monitors
[55:16] countries, and the monitoring can go from just open source intelligence to deep penetration
[55:23] into the intelligence agencies, political systems of that particular country. And also like
[55:30] doesn't such sort of surveillance post the risk of the US's allies wanting to keep
[55:36] a distance from it, you know, and turning towards China, the other
[55:39] major power. Well that time will only tell Anna, But you know that
[55:44] time will only tell how and what the reaction of these countries are going to
[55:49] be. But when you are aligned in your thinking, I don't see.
[55:53] See there's a huge difference in doing business with China, with Russia and doing
[55:59] it with America, aligning your forces with America as opposed to China and Russia.
[56:06] China is not a democracy. Working with China would be working against the
[56:12] interests of democratic you know space. Russia also is not a democracy, although
[56:19] yes they do work in when they're working with foreign countries or abroad in an
[56:24] open market, in a free market space. But if your interests are not
[56:30] aligned, then you do not have options. South Korea's interests are not aligned
[56:36] to engage China. They have a neighbor in North Korea, which is a
[56:43] satellite state in many ways than one of China, and they cannot engage any
[56:47] other countries. So if they need a superpower on their side, it has
[56:52] to be America. Ukraine cannot engage China because China and Russia are very close
[56:58] and they need important superpowers to be on their side, So whould they look
[57:04] who would they look to and look at America and Europe. So if you
[57:07] look at countries, they do not have the option of going to any other
[57:13] country. While the world and leaders talk about a multipolar world, when it
[57:19] comes to aligning yourself, you're aligning yourself to one or the other. So
[57:23] it is still quite bipolar in nature in how the world is or the world
[57:32] order is placed right now. But there are countries like India, there are
[57:38] many other countries that are engaging both sides and in that we're trying to say
[57:44] multipolar, but that does not make it multipolar. Multipolar would be if India
[57:49] also becomes a huge economic you know, corner that other countries can look at,
[57:55] apart from looking at China and America. If they don't want to look
[58:00] at America and Chineese, there any other power that they can look at and
[58:04] stand against or stand neutral to America and Channel There isn't. So we are
[58:08] looking at a multipolar world only from the prism of countries having their own multiple
[58:16] interests and engaging these bipolar superpowers as and when they want to. So we
[58:23] are multipolar. I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, But we are
[58:28] multipolar only to the extent of our interests. We are not multipolar to the
[58:34] extent where there are so many other poles that are as powerful as these two,
[58:40] and countries don't have to depend on just these two and can just go
[58:45] to a third party. The third or fourth party in a multipolar world has
[58:50] not come about. So there are these major polls, and then there are
[58:54] countries like India, like many other countries in South Asia, in Southeast Asia,
[59:01] who are okay doing business with both sides with multiple interests. Yeah.
[59:07] You you definitely explained it really well, Gita. No, uh, no
[59:12] doubts about that, no questions about that. It was actually yes, I
[59:15] think it goes hand in hand that you know, uh, US and China
[59:20] they both know that they are the major superpowers, so they know that.
[59:23] Like you said, I mean there have been similar leagues in the past.
[59:27] Yes there has been backlash, Yes they have been held accountable, but still
[59:31] like the kind of relations and US being democratic country, always has that.
[59:38] I feel so I perceived that way that I reckon that this gives them,
[59:44] the US, the leverage you know, to act with that kind of stronghold.
[59:51] Yeah, because I don't see another pole. I don't see, you
[59:53] know, in these if you say multipolar, I don't see the other strong,
[59:59] significant poles. I only see these and the others trying to make the
[1:00:02] best of what they are, who they are and engage both side, you
[1:00:07] know. Lastly, I would just end with this. I read a very
[1:00:10] interesting quote that was published in a magazine called Politico by its senior writer who
[1:00:17] is called Jack Schaeffer, and he wrote this that the Pentagon and Kirby Kirby
[1:00:23] is basically a White House National Security Council spokesman is called John Kirby, and
[1:00:30] he said that the Pentagon and Kirby, who previously worked as a military and
[1:00:35] diplomatic affairs analyst for CNN, have enough egg on their faces to start an
[1:00:42] omelet factory. Well, Anna, Jack has put it really well, it's
[1:00:47] exactly what has happened with these leagues. This is this is this is not
[1:00:53] just one egg, but a bunch and dozens of eggs on America's face.
[1:01:00] And yes, they will have to deal with the ramifications and repercussions of this,
[1:01:07] not just diplomatically, but on the ground strategically as well, because we
[1:01:12] don't know how much of access would be blocked. But at the end of
[1:01:15] the day, and I'm going back to what concerns me the most when these
[1:01:20] leagues happen, sources being compromised. Now if they're from difficult countries, difficult
[1:01:25] nations. Ukraine is also very difficult countries. It's not a democracy, see,
[1:01:30] so from these countries, when sources are compromised, then it becomes a
[1:01:35] problem for the source. We're talking about human intelligence. And every time there
[1:01:39] are these leagues, you're thinking, Okay, they've done it through through the
[1:01:45] internet, through technology, but the details that they have managed to get have
[1:01:53] a lot to do with your agents on the ground who have humans as their
[1:02:00] source. And if those human beings and nationals of those countries are compromised,
[1:02:07] then it becomes a difficult, difficult thing for not just that one individual,
[1:02:14] his entire family, his or her entire family. Yeah, so yes,
[1:02:16] that's what I mean. The biggest learning is that whatever I've seen, whatever
[1:02:22] has been, it's just kind of upturned, like fundamentally, you know,
[1:02:24] altered. However we have been perceiving the ward. It's more of a loss
[1:02:29] to Ukraine than Russia. So yeah, I mean that was my biggest learning,
[1:02:32] biggest takeaway. But thank you so much for joining me and to the
[1:02:37] listeners out there. If you stayed till the very end of this discussion with
[1:02:43] us, please do leave rating on whatever your favorite audio platform that you are
[1:02:49] listening to us made, Apple Podcasts, Google or Spotify. Do leave a
[1:02:54] rating. Do leave a comment as well, let us know how we have
[1:02:57] been doing. And I'm sure or will be really glad and delighted to have
[1:03:04] your inputs being included in our episodes, in our new episodes, and also
[1:03:08] you can leave a text to us on eight five double eight to nine,
[1:03:13] double six, double line six and the email idea spots at the rate Inda
[1:03:16] today dot com. So thank you, Geeta, and I hope you test
[1:03:22] negative for COVID and so that I can soon, you know, catch you
[1:03:28] in the studio. Thank you, Anna. I hope so too, But
[1:03:31] I have a feeling that this is not going to be. This is I'm
[1:03:37] positively sure that that are allowed to stay in for a bit. Take care
[1:03:43] and thank you so much. Bye. Okay, thank you so much. Bye,

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