# Turkey Elections: Does Erdogan's Return Signal Demise Of Secularism?| Geeta's World, Ep 46

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 30 May 2023, 59 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/54043346/30_may_23_geetas_workd_ep_46_mix_128.mp3

Erdogan secured another re-election victory in Turkey amidst challenging economic conditions, maintaining his presidency for an unprecedented third decade. His consecutive triumphs in 11 elections reflect his enduring leadership in the country. But what's the reason for his political longevity? The press in Turkey is controlled by members of Erdogan's family, who barely gave his opponent Kılıçdaroğlu any airtime. Despite this, Erdogan managed to secure victory in a closely contested election. Does this tell us that this election was far from fair, and that the Turkish society wanted a return to its secular roots but was cheated by someone who now sees himself as a rule of the modern-day Caliphate? Listen in!

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. Eduin secured another re election victory in Turkey am
[0:07] its challenging economic conditions, maintaining his presidency for an unprecedented third decade. But
[0:13] what is the reason for his political longevity? A lot to do with his
[0:17] own policies and consolidation, being a Natal member state, continuing to deal with
[0:22] Russia not fearing sanctions, and the present Turkey is controlled by members of Edwin's
[0:27] family who barely gave his opponent Holostarlu any airtime. Despite this, Eduan managed
[0:32] to secure victory in a closely contested election. Does this tell us that this
[0:37] election was far from fair and that the Turkish society wanted a return to its
[0:42] secular rules but was cheated by someone who now sees himself as a ruler of
[0:47] the modern day caliphate. The fact is that it was lopside at forty nine
[0:51] point one percent of the opposition. Getting these many votes supposed to show that
[0:55] there's a drastic shift within the Turkish society. Hello, I'm Anna Pradeshoni with
[1:02] India to Day TV's Foreign affairs editor Geta Mohan, Where with Geta's astute and
[1:07] incisive crasp of world affairs. We delve into all that is urgent and pressing
[1:12] in world politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global
[1:19] ambitions of being a Vishwa Guru. Let's undravel Geta's Hold. So this is
[1:26] the forty sixth episode of Geta's World, and Geta's joining us not in the
[1:32] studio, but this time via zoom. Hi Geta, Hi, Ama,
[1:36] how are you? How have you been all this while? I've been just
[1:38] contacting you, you know, virtually now for the past few weeks because I've
[1:42] been traveling. I was in Kashmir, then took an extended holiday over Lovely
[1:49] yes, yes, oh wow, and now I'm back. Just interviewed the
[1:55] US Ambassador India, Ambassador Eric Gastell, actually quite a fun politician, so
[2:01] the interview was quite fun. You know, he knew what he wanted to
[2:05] say to call the questions no problems, nice restrictions. Yeah, okay,
[2:14] So we'll finally get to hear the interview tomorrow, yes, or maybe today
[2:19] evening? Oh nice, lovely Okay. So um, this time around,
[2:23] we are discussing Turkey, which we were planning to discuss for quite some time
[2:29] now. But I think this is the most perfect time to discuss because the
[2:34] elections have been done, the votes, the result is out and one has
[2:39] been elected eleven times in the room as a president, so that is quite
[2:45] striking. So Git and I thought that let's discuss something which is very crucial
[2:50] at this point. And Turkey is one of those you know countries that is
[2:55] watched out globally and also with India's perspective, it holds a lot of prominence.
[3:01] Um. And last time we were discussing, while we were discussing D
[3:05] twenty that was in Kashmir the tourism meet, we did discuss about Turkey not
[3:10] being a part of it and Ghita had her own take about it stands in
[3:15] the Islamic world. So we'll touch upon all these points. But first we'll
[3:20] have to understand that what Turkey is about. For those who are uninitiated,
[3:23] I'll just give up, you know, like a brief background like always too
[3:28] before, which really helps, which really helps. So yes, please go
[3:32] ahead. Yeah, So, um, first to begin with the one he
[3:37] has been elected eleven times in a room. Uh and after the after winning
[3:40] the elections, in fact, he told his supporters saying that we will be
[3:46] ruling the country for the coming five years and God willing, we will be
[3:51] deserving of your trust. Now, it was believed that this was the first
[3:54] time that ed One after twenty years, felt the heat, but he trumped
[4:00] that. So the election that was held on May twenty eight saw Turkish voters
[4:06] deciding between ed one and Lulu. Forgive me if I'm pronouncing it wrong,
[4:13] but this is how I think should the pronunciation go. So these were the
[4:17] two candidates. So the first round of voting was held on fourteenth May,
[4:21] where the opposition leaders He received forty four point eight eight percent of the vote,
[4:28] falling short of ED One's forty nine point five two Because neither a candidate
[4:33] surpassed the fifty percent threshold, a runoff became necessity and later in the second
[4:40] round on twenty eighth May, we got the final president. Now, Kolhu
[4:45] representing the Republican People's Party emerged as a joint candidate of six opposition parties against
[4:51] Erda, who leads the AK Party and the People's Aligns. So both candidates
[4:57] had put forward policies addressing the concerns of various minority groups in Turkey and the
[5:02] certain refugee issue, which is very vital and which will explode during this episode.
[5:09] So's victory carries significant weight due to the challenges he faced during this election.
[5:15] So to understand this triumph, Githa and I will try to examine edone's
[5:20] history of power dynamics, identify key points in the election, evaluate the stance
[5:27] of the opposition, and consider the implications of advanced reelection for Turkey and the
[5:32] global stage. So, Githa, to begin with, you know, I
[5:38] remember when we were discussing the Syria Turkey earthquake that happened in February this year.
[5:46] We noted that the disaster that occurred, you know, amidst an ongoing
[5:50] economic crisis in Turkey. In the midst of these challenges, Ede called for
[5:56] elections on fourteenth May, and it was Billy that it was done in an
[6:00] effort to extend his twenty year reign, that because he was confident that he'll
[6:04] be winning. Now, the country has been grappling with severe year on year
[6:09] inflation of over eighty percent, a thirty percent decline in the value of the
[6:14] Lyra against the dollar last year, and a current account deficit nearing five percent
[6:19] of the GDP Now this earthquake, this devastating natural calamity, not only added
[6:25] to the country's wars, but also emerged as a crucial factor determining the potential
[6:31] changes in Turkey's political landscape. Now, you know, in like it is
[6:36] well known that the inadequate response of the ruling coalition government to the catastrophic nineteen
[6:43] ninety nine earthquake in the northwest Turkey that played a very significant role in the
[6:48] rise of Advance, ruling Justice and Development Party. So along these lines,
[6:54] considering these factors, we were discussing at that point about the possibility of the
[6:59] abysmal risk reponse to the earthquake and the economic crisis leading to a potential political
[7:04] shift that could you know, unseat the ruling AKA party Advance Party. But
[7:11] the results are out. The One has once again been elected for the eleventh
[7:15] time. So let's just address the very important thing that what are the reasons
[7:21] behind advance continued success his political longevity that you know, the recent February earthquake.
[7:30] Do you think that that itself has sort of miraculously worked in favor of
[7:35] the ad One government, not just not just the earthquake. There are many
[7:43] factors and reasons, a lot to do with geopolitics as well, and a
[7:47] lot to do with his own policies and consolidation. Remember the sixth Party alliance
[7:55] that fought against him and his alliance and one of the key opponents who later
[8:05] went ahead and supported eld Our reasons why he got his numbers. But at
[8:11] the end of the day, Anna, it's the people who voted. One
[8:13] of the experts I was listening to said that the people have chosen him,
[8:18] whether if he is anti West and has a very strong stance on certain matters.
[8:26] The fact of the matter is that despite all the problems, the growing
[8:31] inflation, the disparity of income, the growing instability, a lot of the
[8:41] Turkish communities having problems with regards to discrimination, so on and so forth,
[8:48] and the handling of the earthquake, all that aside, the fact of the
[8:50] matter is that at the end of the day, the people of Turkey have
[8:54] voted. Now, we do know that the opposition have been raising concerns and
[8:58] have not conceded feet in totality so to say. But the fact is that
[9:05] this is a man who has in many ways reinvented himself, redesigned his country's
[9:13] quality from a prime minister real to a presidential six years ago, to taking
[9:20] the decisions that he has taken in the recent past, taking some tough decisions
[9:26] on Russia, China being a NATO member state, continuing to deal with Russia
[9:33] not fearing sanctions. There are many aspects to why eld one is where he
[9:39] is today, and nothing short of yet another blow in many ways than one,
[9:48] not in a bad way, but in just that many expected this to
[9:52] happen. Many with a runoff, you know when like the first round happened,
[10:00] did not expect this to happen. But there are some uh, some
[10:05] downsides to to the to the opposition leader as well. And that really has
[10:11] to do with the fact that he's older. And this is I'm talking about
[10:16] killage that roll you. Yeah, he's older. Uh, he's uh,
[10:22] he's conventional and yet the Six Party Alliance in many ways liberal, but the
[10:30] Six Party Alliance has Islamists far right wing. The alliance in itself was not
[10:35] a natural alliance. It was an alliance united to take down the Arch Party.
[10:41] That is uh, that is uh are the Ones Party. So there
[10:46] is a natural um, the natural inclination of people who united themselves, maybe
[10:54] a lot of them did not come out to vote the first time around.
[10:58] There's about eighty five percent voting percentage in the second round, and that really
[11:05] goes to show how important and how crucial the elections were and how people really
[11:11] wanted to come out and vote to ensure that they they choose or their candidate
[11:18] wins. So very close in fact, it is not a huge margin with
[11:24] which the one has won, and not the first time that kamal Ki has
[11:31] fought Earth One. This in all probaty is his third time, and he's
[11:35] lost the first few times as well against and he continues to fight. He
[11:41] says I'm not going to go down, and like you quoted him as well,
[11:46] that I'm not going to go down. This is a fight that he
[11:52] is going to take on and that autocracy and authoritarian regimes have to end.
[11:56] So both have they have had their say, but with very slim margin.
[12:01] Other one has has has moved ahead and formed a government yet again. Yeah,
[12:05] actually, I mean, and you know, the campaigns also of both
[12:09] the candidates they were more or less similar. So I mean, if you
[12:13] look at the opposition party's stance, you know, with the it's it was
[12:18] mostly like focusing on promises to fix the economy, like apart from what actually
[12:24] separates or differentiates the opposition's party party stance from Advance was that he was promising
[12:35] to fix the economy, to restore civil liberties and to foster inclusivity. But
[12:41] this was not like, this was not enough for the people. Probably it
[12:45] was mostly about Advance popularity because I remember I read it somewhere that as an
[12:52] opposition leader, he's a popular man, but he's a popular man in the
[12:58] grassroots level. So he in terms of popularity, he could not match what
[13:03] ed One enjoys. So you know, all these factors like if they are
[13:09] taken into consideration, it also somehow builds a societal description, like a description
[13:16] to how Turkey society works. So on that note, I'll also stress upon
[13:22] this factor that you know, there's two ways you could read this selection result,
[13:26] Kita that and I'll just give list out the two ways that what I
[13:31] think and I could decipher and the one you think is the correct reading of
[13:35] the situation would also inform our idea of Turkey and its society. The first
[13:41] is that ard One, already in power for you know twenty years, has
[13:46] now won another term by basically promising to bring more of religion and specifically Islam
[13:54] in the everyday life of Turkish people. I would say his twenty years stint
[13:58] in power could lead one to ask if secularism had been over romanticized in Turkey,
[14:07] because if he'll go back into the history of Turkey, I think secularism
[14:09] was something that was like mostly most cherished about, because you know, when
[14:15] the people saw a guy who was promising them more religion in politics, they
[14:20] kept him in power for twenty years and have now asked him to rule them
[14:24] again for another five years, despite inflation being at forty percent and the economy
[14:30] literally tanking. Now, in the early years of his governance, said the
[14:33] one kept more of his focus on the economy. But now is like when
[14:39] he's you know, pandering to the to the orthodox and conservative constituencies by abusing
[14:46] those of the LGBTQ community and jailing journalists and activists, and yet he has
[14:50] won the election. Now the second reading is more sobering for ed one because
[14:56] we're now delve into the intricacies of the the election result. Like Edue one
[15:01] fifty two percent of votes, which is obviously a very slim margin, Like
[15:05] you said now, Moreover, his competitor, Holostarlu was possibly the weakest of
[15:11] all the potential opposition faces. Yes, most say that he's the grassroots man,
[15:16] is very popular, but at the grass roots level is popular, but
[15:20] also possibly the weakest. Yet he was the only choice for the Republican parties
[15:24] the People's Party, because the other leading opposition faces had been jailed. The
[15:30] press in Turkey is controlled by members of Due's family, who barely gave him
[15:35] any airtime. Now, social media was used to launch a massive smear campaign
[15:41] against him, but despite all of this, Due one by a very tight
[15:46] margin. So do you think that does this tell us that you know,
[15:50] this election was far from fair and that the Turkish society wanted a return to
[15:56] its secular roots but was sort of cheated by someone who now sees himself as
[16:03] a rule of the you know, modern day caliphate. So, of these
[16:07] two readings of the election, which do you think is more accurate? Yeah?
[16:11] I think I think it's a mix of both. But primarily, let
[16:14] me tell you, when we speak about the one's popularity, more so,
[16:18] the reports of how it might not be as fair as a fair fight as
[16:26] is projected to be is absolutely true that ether one largely controls the media and
[16:33] state resources, and those resources were used all through the campaign for other one.
[16:40] He exercised those leavers ahead of the election and all through campaigning, and
[16:45] that was certainly a built in advantage for other one. So while people can
[16:52] talk about or may not be able to really look into probe into election irregularities,
[16:56] the fact is that it was lopside. It is not like a like
[17:03] a Killage d Ulu did not have, did not have advantage of popularity.
[17:08] He did a lot of people want to change. A lot of people were
[17:12] thinking of an urdu One Turkey Turkia or a post Eldugan Turkya. There was
[17:19] this entire conversation why because if that would have happened, the impact would have
[17:25] been far reaching. Your domestic policy, of foreign policy, defense, everything
[17:30] would have looked different. So the divide is vast and it is very a
[17:37] very prominent accentuated. So you can see the divide. And therefore I say
[17:44] that forty seven point nine percent is also a huge, huge percentage for Killage
[17:48] Dauler to have gained. Ardu one is set now to become the longest serving
[17:53] leader, and yes he's going to be more assertive in his foreign policy,
[18:00] his domestic policy the way he views it. See, Turkey is very uniquely
[18:06] positioned against Again, if we talk about geopolitics, it is sandwiched between Europe
[18:11] and West Asia, all very important. So for now, any shift in
[18:18] his policies would have been either pro West or or you know, the continued
[18:23] engagement with China and Russia. In that we're looking at Turkey now trying to
[18:29] play a very important role in um in West Asia. They're trying to increase
[18:34] their increased ties with rivals and competitors. And this also at a time when,
[18:42] like I said, they are a member state of the North Atlantic Treaty
[18:47] Organization which is NATO. And even if you know, one does not always
[18:53] act like he is part of NATO in his decisions in the support and how
[19:00] he supports certain countries, the fact is that he is and he that has
[19:06] been a problem. So for the West, if you look at it from
[19:08] West perspective, killage Daroulu would have been really a good change because that would
[19:15] have changed how how Turkey looks at the Russia Ukraine war and and selling drones
[19:25] to to uh, you know, to Ukraine, so on and so forth.
[19:30] So there is a lot when it comes to a lot at stake.
[19:34] There was a lot at stake for the Turkish elections. It would have gone
[19:40] either side in terms of a drastic shift. That hasn't happened. But it
[19:44] certainly is not because the man is popular. It is also because the man
[19:48] is in control. And yes, it did help him that the media and
[19:53] the state resources were under the one and he completely used it, optimally used
[20:00] it to his benefit. Yeah, But the question that I was trying to
[20:04] raise was that don't you think that, yes, election was far from fair.
[20:08] You can say that it was lopsided, yes, considering the media being
[20:12] you know, controlled by his family. But as like the Turkish society,
[20:18] if you want to understand what this means of the people choosing somebody like him,
[20:23] ignoring the facts that how the economy is doing, do you think it's
[20:27] more to do that the Turkish society wants to return to its secular, secular
[20:33] roots. It would be the other way around. I suppose not, this
[20:37] not their secular roots, because other one is the one who's making the shift
[20:41] to to appeasing these Islamists within the case, so we're looking at actually this
[20:51] slight shift from what Kamal secular republic looked like to the religion just believes that
[21:00] he's brought into the political system. Eldone always denied, you know, wanting
[21:07] to impose Islamic values, insisting he supported the rights of Turks to express their
[21:12] religion more openly. But you know, after a decade of his rule,
[21:18] the One's party also had moved to lift the ban on women wearing headscarves and
[21:23] public services. This is during after the nineteen eighteen military coup, the headscarves
[21:30] were banned in public services, so women who were to work in public service,
[21:34] we're not supposed to wear headscarves. The band eventually lifted for women in
[21:40] police, military and judiciary. And it also happened when Aldoone was in control.
[21:45] But he has reportedly also, you know, he has repeatedly supported what
[21:52] now is is criminalizing adultery or for that matter, taking a very hard view
[22:00] and stand on the LGBTQ community. So he actually is propagating the idea of
[22:08] a Muslim state or good Muslim and how and has championed the cause of Islamists.
[22:18] He has been doing that. We know that he has supported regimes that
[22:26] have been rather very been supported by or espoused the Islamist ideology, So no,
[22:33] it is actually the other way around. In fact, if you see
[22:36] forty nine point one percent of the opposition getting these many votes, goes to
[22:41] show that there's a drastic shift within the Turkish society of going back maybe to
[22:48] a more secular wing of what Turkey used to look like, rather than going
[22:52] into the more more conservative wing of politics. So that shift is visible.
[23:00] It certainly has not gained enough ground to topple the regime or the government,
[23:04] but it certainly has gained enough to for to create jitters amongst the ruling dispensation
[23:17] and Gita like, do we know enough about Turkey's place? You said it
[23:22] wants to be a good Muslim country and he wants to protect that, But
[23:26] do we know enough about Turkey's place in the Islamic world and in the Middle
[23:30] East specifically to sort of surmise that you know, this continuing plunge into an
[23:37] autocratic Islamic rule could lead to more countries in the region giving up giving up
[23:44] any samblance of secularism, and like, secondly, if that happens, do
[23:49] you think it would necessarily be a bad omen for the world because those who
[23:56] wanted to wear their religion on their sleeves and Turkey they felt very oppressed by
[24:00] not being allowed to wear the hijab or head scarves in educational and state institutions.
[24:07] So in a way it is due who is sort of liberating his people
[24:11] and could be the harbing harbinger for you know, for more such politics to
[24:18] follow in the Middle East. But that's a complicated question because yes, Turkey
[24:25] does see itself as one of the important members of Oyic as also a native
[24:30] member. So again it tries to balance its ties with the West, is
[24:34] also with West Asia, tries to go ahead and become a face of the
[24:42] Islamic world and yet has a very open and western view of certain things.
[24:49] But yes, there has been a certain transition and trend towards the and a
[24:56] movement towards the towards a more projection of a more Muslim nation within Turkey,
[25:03] and you can see that with all the statements and that they make over issues
[25:07] regarding Muslims anywhere in the world. We've seen Turkey take on India quite a
[25:14] few times. Anna when it comes to Kashmir. The relationship with India is
[25:18] quite fraught because of the stand that it has taken. It seems like it
[25:23] is supporting Pakistan all the time, but there is a reason. You're seeing
[25:26] a growing closeness of countries that not just work together, but also Turkey's finding
[25:36] its place within that geopolitics as well, China coming together with Pakistan, coming
[25:41] together with Turkey and then espousing the cause for Kashmir. So yes, Turkey
[25:48] does, and Aldouan sees the space that he's making for himself in a very
[25:56] balanced, annuanced manner with the West. Is all so with West Asia and
[26:03] the East um, whether it's China or other countries, But that has not
[26:08] led to all great ties with the West. It is a very difficult relationship
[26:15] and it certainly would have changed if kilidou would have come to power, but
[26:22] that certainly is not going to happen. So it is going to take a
[26:25] long time before we actually see a shift in any policy within within Turkey.
[26:33] Now, we do know that their hostility with the West, particularly with America,
[26:37] grew after the twenty sixteen who attempt against him, and he has been
[26:44] blaming Fatalha Golen, who has been a cleric living in exile in the United
[26:49] States of America insisting that US extradite Golen, but that that has been that
[26:56] has not been accepted by the US as saying that there is no evidence.
[27:00] So that certainly is a huge rift, and we've seen that drift deepened with
[27:07] the way Turkey and has been um working against against the US sou So there
[27:18] are there are a lot of rifts in Syria. You see the United States
[27:23] of America partnering with Coldish parties which again are according to Dugan, is an
[27:30] existential threat because because because they are separatist groups within Turkey. So there are
[27:38] a lot of nuances when it comes to how the geopolitics is being played.
[27:44] But yes, Lughan has placed himself as one of the tallest and most consequential
[27:51] leaders within Turkey and certainly consequential within the Oise that is the Islamic grouping as
[27:56] well. Yeah, and two, add to what you said about the foreign
[28:00] stance, foreign policies, that the international stance that day are the one has
[28:06] taken. I was reading this interview by which was taken by the wire of
[28:11] India's former ambassador to Turkey, who was from twenty twenty to twenty twenty two.
[28:15] His name is Sanjai Panda, and he said that, you know that
[28:19] Turkey has isolated itself internationally and acted against the interest of the Allies, and
[28:26] that has earned it a reputation as the bad boy. So this is why
[28:33] the West, you know, was closely observing this elections in Turkey and saying
[28:37] that thinking that it could potentially, like you said, that it would potentially
[28:41] lead to a reconsideration of the of their ties. And then the co attemp,
[28:48] yes, the Turkey's Turkey's intervention in Syria following the twenty sixteen co attempt
[28:53] and its declaration to open its gates to Serdan refugees that also drew criticism from
[29:00] Western allized and like you mentioned also the Russia Ukraine War that Turkey did not
[29:07] adhere to the ban on Russian plains during the Ukraine War, and it also
[29:12] sold drones to Ukraine. So, you know, just to expand a bit
[29:18] on this, you think that still there's a chance that the stance that ed
[29:23] One has been taken of being the bad boy and you know, sort of
[29:27] alienating himself and Turkey from the West. But considering the the economic challenges,
[29:34] the struggling economy and low tourism as well, that is also one of the
[29:38] points. Can now Turkey effort to continue its confrontational approach with the West and
[29:45] risk for the alienation. Well that's also very interesting. You see again Turkey
[29:51] is very nicely poised and placed with being being a member of the nature now
[29:56] with the Russia, Ukraine, Barran. Now what has happened is that in
[30:00] this they need Turkey's approval. On many counts. Turkey held up Sweden's native
[30:07] membership. Now we know that they had to do with terrorist organizations. Though
[30:11] our claims that Stockholm's policies with regards to PKK, which is a banned organization
[30:17] in Turkey and deemed a terrorist organization, is the reason why Sweden can never
[30:22] be a part of the NATO. Now, he objected to both Finland and
[30:30] Sweden's joining the alliance earlier this year and all through last year. But but
[30:40] he has moved on Finland because there was a given take there. I'll explain
[30:44] what that was. But he hasn't budged on Sweden, so which means that
[30:48] it is not about whether if they can hold him two certain things or not.
[30:53] It's the other way around that. What is it that he can hold
[30:56] the NATO hostage too, and with and in this case you're looking at the
[31:02] other way around over here. So Sweden never got the green signal. But
[31:06] with Finland, what he did was that because of Turkey's deal, the S
[31:12] four hundred surface to air missile defense system deal with Russia, there were sanctions
[31:19] placed on Turkey and they said that US said that there is no going to
[31:23] be the fighter jet program of F sixteens with the US was completely kicked out.
[31:30] It was done away with. So then Turkey told the US that should
[31:37] you want Finland to join, and should you want our approval, and if
[31:41] you want Sweden as a full member, then you will have to make it
[31:48] a little more amenable and acceptable to Turkey as well. And how can that
[31:52] happen. You will have to switen the deal by allowing Turkey to buy F
[31:57] sixteens again and allowing the upgraded equipment. So now it requires Congress's approval.
[32:05] We know that, But the fact is that that's to and fro. That's
[32:08] happening between Turkey and the United States of America. Nothing, There are no
[32:14] guarantees in geopolitics. We don't know how it's going to play out. But
[32:17] because Turkey is positioned the way it is because it is a part of the
[32:23] of NATO. It has a very important role. The fact that in NATO
[32:29] everything happens with consensus is one of the three reasons why they still need Turkey
[32:38] and its approval on many things, especially at a time in Russia and Ukraine
[32:44] are at war and NATO is trying to support Russia Ukraine in this war against
[32:50] Russia. Yeah, and to you know, remind a bit, while I
[32:54] was reading about the opposition leader, and I wanted to mention this that if
[33:00] you could give me an educated guess as to why was he like despite the
[33:06] popularity and everything and trying to understand you know, like Turkey as a society,
[33:12] but what exactly went wrong with the opposition party? Like was it that
[33:17] you know there were too so, I mean their aim was to just defeat
[33:22] ere the one, and in that aim they actually did not focus at how
[33:25] they could separate themselves in terms of projecting their party as the alternative. As
[33:34] in if you see observers have said that his religious minority background as an Alibi,
[33:39] which is a member of heterodox Muslim sect, this might have dissouaded some
[33:46] voters, but then this brings in the religious you know, the religious identity
[33:52] comes in picture. That's saying that it is possible that you know, certain
[33:54] members of Turkey's Sunni Muslim majority whole biases against Levi's potentially influencing their voting decisions.
[34:04] So that is why Hillis Sharalu was not elected, was not chosen as
[34:08] the alternative in fact, countering terrorism. That was also one of the factors
[34:14] that both the both Edduan and Kilishkaralu had specified that they want to counter terrorism.
[34:21] And Kurdish Workers Party, which is PKK, like you mentioned, is
[34:24] a terrorist group seeking the creation of an independent Kurdish state. But and Edone's
[34:30] party has been very stringent towards the hardliners such as the PEKK, and in
[34:35] fact, Kili Saralu has also promised to protect Turkey's democracy, including you know,
[34:39] pushing back against terrorism. But Kili Saralu also received the backing of the
[34:46] pro Kurdish People's Democratic Party. Can we say overall, you know, with
[34:52] religion of his identity coming into the free you think that Edduan has put it
[34:58] at the heart of his campaign. Wild Kiri Starlu's position has been somewhat complicated
[35:02] see the alive I faith. He it is a religious minority that shares you
[35:07] know, characteristics from Shia Islam, Sufism and folk traditions. But and yes,
[35:16] many thought that this minority heritage could be a hindrance for Killage Darolu in
[35:22] winning voters. But if you see firstly the first round, if you see
[35:27] how close the elections were, and in the second round he lost with a
[35:31] very slim margin. So that really goes to show Anna that people are looking
[35:37] beyond this, but not as much as as for him to have won the
[35:43] elections. Again, we say, there are a lot of factors. We
[35:46] do not know what was a player over here. This was the best chance
[35:51] he had to forming government. It did not happen, but many within the
[35:57] country, experts Anna with the country are not surprised. While he kept promising
[36:04] democraticization and that they will return to the conventional economic policies that was his manifesto.
[36:14] You know, he promised to bring back spring again. So on and
[36:19] so far. But at the end of the day, yes, where you're
[36:22] from, who are the parties that are coming out in support, who are
[36:27] the parties who have externally supported you or individuals and organizations is quite important.
[36:34] It is quite important to see whether they were factors or not, but not
[36:38] so much for an Alabite to not win at all, you see, yea
[36:45] else he would have he would have been routed so that that really did not
[36:51] happen. He had said in the first round that he would, you know,
[36:54] send three point six million Serians now living in Turkey back to the home
[37:00] country within two years. Now he doubled down after you know the results,
[37:07] saying that no, it will be ten million refugees. And who are we
[37:09] talking about over here in Syria? The Assad regime is is an a minority
[37:17] Ala white faith believing people who control the whole of Syria, which is a
[37:23] majority Sunni. So we who are the refugees who come on this side?
[37:29] They are they are non Alabites, they are actually Sunni. So everybody's playing
[37:34] their own politics. If you're looking at it from Kilidulu's point of view,
[37:39] he's pandering to the Alabie faith in many ways than one. And if and
[37:46] the statements on Syria clearly explained you know why he's saying what he's saying.
[37:52] Although one on the other side, while not welcomed very hesitantly but has has
[38:00] allowed so many refugees to take UH to UH come and stay within Turkey.
[38:08] Uh. He might not be very happy about it because it does take it
[38:14] does train the economy a lot. But the fact is that he has and
[38:17] we here they're both playing their own politics, their own pandering to their own
[38:22] people. And in that within that itself, you know that Kamal Khali Darolu
[38:29] is way more soft spoken, somebody who wants to bring back democracy, maybe
[38:35] parliamentary system of elections and parliamentary system of governments. Yet again, he has
[38:42] been talking about their husband conversation on that front as well, But that certainly
[38:46] will have to wait now because this UH career UM officer who was who is
[38:54] basically a government officer turned politician. UM, we'll have to wait his turn.
[39:01] Yet again, he's already lost too many times against the one, and
[39:05] he's quite old. So we'll have to see how this entire alliance keeps itself
[39:09] alive united against as the one, maybe for an election after this term.
[39:17] Yeah, actually, but I mean that's like a very whatever will happen?
[39:22] Everybody did People don't understand the nuances of being an allabied, you know,
[39:28] of the allabied faith because they might be a minority and that could be disadvantage
[39:32] to him, but if you look at the numbers, it doesn't seem like
[39:36] it was really a disadvantage. Also because he had a six party alliance and
[39:40] all of them from various sects, various beliefs and ideology, and they all
[39:46] came together, united, united to finalit. You know, this vegs the
[39:52] question about addressing the plight of certain refugees, like you mentioned, and you
[39:58] know a few look at both the candidates stands, and now of course we'll
[40:04] be looking at what Eduan has to what he thinks of the plight of certain
[40:08] refugees and what's next for them according to him, because it is a pressing
[40:13] concern because both of them were contesting. Also, it was believed that whatever
[40:19] the outcome will be of the election, it's a no win situation. Why
[40:22] because both candidates the strategically targeted Turkish nationalists, a majority of whom advocate for
[40:30] the return of certain refugees. And to give some data, Turkey currently hosts
[40:36] approximately four million Certian refugees and Poles indicate that around eighty percent of Turks they
[40:44] favored their repatriation. This was reported by the Guardian. So, you know,
[40:49] both edu they had pledged that, you know, they want to send
[40:52] back a significant number of Sigians and restore Turkey's relations with the president the Cilain
[41:00] presidents government. Now the one he has committed repatriating around one million refugees.
[41:07] And on the other hand, kiage Lu, like you said, he said
[41:10] that ten million refugees will be repatriated. So now, in this you know,
[41:15] complicated and complex geopolitical scenario, what do you think lies ahead for certain
[41:22] refugees considering the increasing anti refugee sentiments. You know, so many people who
[41:28] believe that they should be repatriated. Uh, you know, because there is
[41:32] no challenging notion to certain refugees flight. Like both the members, both the
[41:38] candidates, they were, I mean, they were of the similar view in
[41:43] terms of how they want to approach this this issue, approach their flight.
[41:46] So how do you look at it and what's the solution, What's what's next
[41:51] for them? This is a very important, um, you know conversation because
[41:57] yes, the Turkish presidential campaign in all through the campaigns left Syrians quite uncertain
[42:02] about their future. The anti refugee retoric that we heard from both quarters.
[42:08] I've already explained why Killige da Rollo was doing it, but as one no
[42:13] less, he also continued talking about how the Syrian refugees will have to go
[42:21] and so yes, they were waiting very anxiously, so Anna. An estimated
[42:24] four million Syrian refugees live in Turkey according to some reports, and some eighty
[42:31] percent of Turks want them to go back, or during legions wanted them to
[42:37] go back. Refugee crisis is a major crisis in Turkey and the opposition leader
[42:44] Killige d Rolu really played to that to his audience when he accused the one
[42:49] of letting in ten million refugees, also assuring his supporters that he will be
[42:53] sending back three point five million of them. That's a huge number. Now
[42:59] it's not just him, Both the candidates have been promising to send back a
[43:02] large number of Syrians to restore Turkey's relations with the government of Bashira Lasad.
[43:10] There are also ties have been fraught with Ardone allowing the rebels to leave and
[43:15] take find refugees in Turkey. But for Syrian refugees, the outcome of this
[43:22] election is certainly a no win situation because either way, because of the campaign,
[43:29] and because so many people don't want this refugee crisis to continue in their
[43:34] own country, so many of them have been asking the other have been asking
[43:39] that that the Serian refugees be asked to go back. So, if Kilidulu
[43:47] would have won, it might have been more heightened and more more serious.
[43:55] But if not, if you're looking at Ardoon having returned to power, you
[44:00] will still see him keep his full promise of sending back Syrian refugees. Might
[44:07] not be by the numbers that killig Dulu was spelling out, but certainly it
[44:13] would be. So the anti refugees that we saw all through the campaign that
[44:19] certainly, you know, kilig Darrulu was making more than another one in support
[44:24] of Turkish nationalists was something that the one also to a certain extent, played
[44:31] to the galleries because it was tiring him and it was his own policy of
[44:37] allowing space to the refugees. So now it is undoing of what he's done,
[44:42] and he did. He did play day to the galleries quite well on
[44:45] the Syrian refugee front, but a really uncertain future for those who fled their
[44:51] country and now might have to go back. Yeah, yeah, actually I
[44:57] mean this is something that will be stout really closely because like I said,
[45:01] I mean, there's no challenging notion, you know to how people I mean
[45:07] the people also want them repatriated. The political parties of course want to please
[45:13] the people and owing to their respective backgrounds, they also have a similar stance.
[45:16] So that is something to be looked at. And finally, to end
[45:21] the conversation with Githa, and you have mentioned India's relations with Turkey, but
[45:28] just to sum it up, like we discussed last time about Turkey, you
[45:31] know, and advance uh you know, stance towards Kashmir, like how he
[45:37] looks at Kashmir's the revocation of Article three seventeen Kashmir, which obviously didn't go
[45:44] down well with third one. And that is why the the strange relationship owing
[45:50] to the Kashmir Is show. And it also looks at India, you know,
[45:53] it's sort of a third country's prison because owing to what Pakistan's position as
[46:00] being on Kashmi, and this has kind of hindered the development of India and
[46:05] Turkey's relations if we look at it beyond that with not with this perspective in
[46:12] terms of economically, you know, I think both the countries they would benefit
[46:16] from increased economic engagement. But considering the recent developments the G twenty Kashmier thing,
[46:22] do you think that this the relationship has actually been a bit more strained
[46:27] now or how do you see it developing through the in the coming years and
[46:30] especially in ed once you rule. So the ties between these two countries have
[46:37] been fraught with certain tensions with regards to Turkey's position instand but that has not
[46:44] always been the case. There has been an upside two ties between Indian Turkey.
[46:49] You see, after the ones win, Prime Minister and Arranger Modi was
[46:52] one of the first few leaders to congratulate him and welcome him to power yet
[46:58] again. And there have been a lot of meetings between the leaders. They've
[47:04] been very cordial with each other. There's also been a little upside to the
[47:07] relations anna after the earthquake. It's unfortunate that we're talking about a devastating earthquake,
[47:14] but India's operation those where they actually went ahead and sent extended assistance,
[47:21] sent sent their their our own people from the fossils, from the military to
[47:29] go there, set up base camp, hospital camps, not just rescue Indians,
[47:34] but rescued some other nationals as well as provided hospital care and uh and
[47:40] and basic necessities to the earthquake affected people. So that certainly changed, you
[47:49] know, the relief materials, medical equipment, ndr I teams going. That
[47:54] really changed how the two sides were looking at each other to a certain extent.
[48:00] You see, Turkey came out and and appreciated all of the efforts that
[48:06] have been made by by India and that really warmed up ties between the two
[48:12] countries. But that certainly does not mean that Turkey support for Pakistan and comments
[48:16] and Kashmir are going to die down anytime soon. It is going it is
[48:22] them to stay. So while we've seen improvement and we will continue to see
[48:28] improvement, these are areas that one has to live with. So in the
[48:35] question has to be whether if India is willing to let go of Turkey completely
[48:39] because they raise the issue of Kashmir, or work with Turkey on every other
[48:45] front and say well you can have your say on Kashmir or whatever you want
[48:47] to say, we don't agree, which is what the what it seems like
[48:52] right now. It is transactional. It is an important one when it comes
[49:00] to where Turkey is placed again. It's an important dimension. Trade is an
[49:06] important dimension. Commercial cooperation is an important dimension of India Turkey relations. There
[49:12] has been a bilateral trade agreement between the two countries that were signed in nineteen
[49:15] seventy three. And you will see increase in major Indian exports to Turkey when
[49:23] it comes to oil, few many automotive spare parts or so on and so
[49:30] forth, and Turkey's exports to India when it comes to various other mechanical appliances,
[49:36] so on and so forth. What I'm trying to say over here is
[49:38] that because of Turkey stand on a particular issue does not mean that other areas
[49:45] of ties between the two countries have been interrupted. Turkey was one of those
[49:51] countries who did condemn the art repeal of certain provisions of Article three seventy in
[49:57] German and Kishmir. But then a again, India did not. India continue
[50:02] to maintain that all these statements that are coming out from certain Islamic nations are
[50:07] motivated and biased, but they did not stop working. Now, for a
[50:13] the one ere the one has to see how it is going to balance his
[50:17] balance ties of his country with China, Russia becoming more anti West and yet
[50:27] you know, not engaging Syria, how does that work? So sending back
[50:32] refugees Syrian refugees, and I go back to that is not just to do
[50:36] with the fact that people don't want refugees. It's also to do with the
[50:39] fact that there's an important decision to make on whether they should engage Assad government.
[50:45] The first time you saw Assad go out and engaging West Asia, he
[50:50] was visiting one of these countries, and you're seeing him come out now and
[50:55] acceptable to the Middle East, which is West Asia. So now the decision
[51:01] also has to be Turkeys whether if they want to, they will have to
[51:05] start sending back these refugees. So it's a difficult decision, but one that
[51:09] they have to take. On the contrary, India has been quite supportive of
[51:14] Syria. On every other thing. We are aligned with the West, but
[51:19] on certain very important critical matters, particularly in conflict zones such as Russia,
[51:23] Ukraine, Syria, most of West Asian conflict, Iran, we see the
[51:30] Persian golfiges. We see India aligned with China and Russia more than the West.
[51:38] So and we see Turkey aligned with China Russia too. So in all
[51:44] other foreign policy issues, India and Turkey are quite aligned. It's only the
[51:50] Kashmir and Pakistan issue where we have a problem, and that is sometimes that's
[51:58] sometimes supersedes other overpass the other, which is why the rest beg the question
[52:05] on whether if India should only focus on Kashmir and thirty stand on that or
[52:08] become more transactional and say, okay, that might be your stand, but
[52:13] let's do business on the other on other matters, which is where I see
[52:19] the ties headed. Okay, interesting, yeah, okay, thank you.
[52:23] And you know, I just want to share this thing with you because while
[52:29] I was researching for this this particular podcast, I yes, you know,
[52:35] to try to understand a country's politics, it's very interesting in itself because you
[52:39] come especially when you go down the history, you know, you try to
[52:43] unravel a lot of things that somehow gets you know, missed in the in
[52:47] the mainstream media that you don't get to, you know, no, certain
[52:52] facts, like one such stance was about the LGBTQ community of the one you
[52:57] know, and I was reading it and you know, I I found like
[53:00] certain comments that he had made he actually linked him homo sexuality to disease and
[53:06] societal decay. Uh, you know, and he also propagated traditional gender rules,
[53:13] emphasizing women's identities rooted in motherhood and family, while dismissing the voices of
[53:20] lesbians. So and you know, before the two thousand election that brought the
[53:24] Justice and Development Party, uh that ey one had co founded to power,
[53:30] he everyone expressed concern over mistreatment of gain individuals and advocated legal protections for them.
[53:39] But later after I think it was like after a few years, yes,
[53:45] yes, so that I mean, I was just wondering that, you
[53:47] know, in two thousand and two, when you were just like in those
[53:52] uh you know, brimming days when we're just developing, you had a certain
[53:55] stance. And after that, yes, you are pandering two people's views.
[54:00] But do you think in a new future when you know, like the world
[54:04] we associate all these terms with being modern, Like if you believe in LGBTQ
[54:09] rights, then you think that, okays a modern concept. No, okay,
[54:13] So do you think that in the coming years you can Actually it's not
[54:16] it's not a modern concept. But yes, the country is moving forward ward.
[54:22] Yeah it's yes, yes, correct, correct, that's a better way.
[54:25] But that's how somehow you know, it's in the conservative field. That's
[54:30] how it's projected. But I was just thinking. I was just left wondering
[54:34] that you know, in certain years to come, like it's a five year
[54:37] tenure of him. You think that a country like Turkey, so many years
[54:43] ago you had certain ideas that you were concerned about mistreatment of gay individuals,
[54:49] but later you change your perspective, your stance now again, is there any
[54:54] scope of changing or you think that would justify his position. I don't there's
[55:00] the scope of changing his stand on LGBTQI, but I do feel like if
[55:05] there is an incident or instance where somebody's ill treated, he'll make it a
[55:07] human rights issue and say that that should not be done. However this is
[55:12] banned or this is not right or this is not normal, or whatever whatever
[55:16] that he's been saying, because that's where's his vote count really is. We're
[55:22] seeing a shift in Turkish society that it's moving more towards an Islamist nation than
[55:30] the secular one that was envisioned by Mastafa Kamala Turk. So that shift has
[55:37] begun and I don't see it end anytime soon. Only hoping that the Turkey
[55:45] that we know where you have the right mix of the East and the West,
[55:51] or however you want to put it, of the Islamic world and the
[55:54] Western you know, secular concept that still continues to live, that people have
[56:00] the freedom to wear what they want to wear. Lifting a band is good
[56:06] because people who want to wear his jobs should be allowed to wear h jobs.
[56:09] But imposing something also is bad, which means that people who don't want
[56:15] to wear should also be allowed not to wear till the time that freedom is
[56:19] accorded to women of Turkey, it still is a better place if it is
[56:22] not accorded. And if it's only about lifting bands on his job, but
[56:28] not and goes on to impose his job on people, then then we're looking
[56:34] at a very serious challenge. But right doesn't seem like that's where it's headed.
[56:38] It just seems like it's headed to a place where they're becoming more conservative,
[56:44] but not to the extent that he will allow personal liberties to be to
[56:50] be compromised. Yeah actually, yeah, interesting thought, and that is not
[56:59] fact. But it is an authoritarian government where personal liberties might be questionable.
[57:04] I'm talking about first space of wearing a hijab, not wearing are you going
[57:09] and praying five times a day or not, you know those things. M
[57:14] yeah, yeah, okay, Gita, thank you so much. It was
[57:17] a very wonderful and interesting conversation yet another one. And I hope the listeners
[57:25] also this is this is an episode that we've waited to do for the past
[57:30] two weeks and couldn't. Well, finally the right time because the results around
[57:35] very right time. You could speak with some clarity exactly yeah, actually so.
[57:39] And of course if the listeners also, if you stayed till the end,
[57:44] and if you enjoyed the conversation, and if you have anything to chip
[57:46] in, please let us know. The number is age five, double aged
[57:51] nine, double six, double line six and the email ideas spots at the
[57:53] rate in at date dot com. Thank you and please do right to us,
[57:58] let us know and get um. We'll be back next week with another
[58:02] interesting episode. I think this space is this space is definitely very interesting to
[58:09] look out at and watch out for. So I'll see you soon in the
[58:14] studio. Hoping to see you soon in the studio. Take okay, bye,
[58:19] take care bye bye.

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