# Trump Indictment: Did 'Hoarder' Trump Hide Classified Docs For Re-election Bid? | Geeta's World, Ep 48

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 13 Jun 2023, 49 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/54356712/13_jun_23_geeta_world_13_june_ep_48_128.mp3

US’s ex-president Donald Trump has been charged with 37 counts of unauthorised possession of classified material, obstruction of justice, concealing documents and making false statements to law enforcement. But the fact that despite facing a second indictment, Trump could potentially be elected president, what does he even stand to lose in this situation? And given that Trump is the only former President to be indicted, and that Joe Biden is also facing investigation for not revealing classified documents, how much of this investigation is going to be genuine, and how much does it seem like political vendetta? Listen in!

## Transcript

[0:00] This is Inda Today podcasts USS. Ex President Donald Trump has been charged with
[0:10] thirty seven counts of unauthorized possession of classified material, obstruction of justice, concealing
[0:17] documents, and making false statements to law enforcement. But despite facing a second
[0:22] indictment, Trump could potentially be elected president. So what does he even stand
[0:28] to lose in this situation? It could be huge only in terms of being
[0:33] disqualified when the hearings begin. It's not just Trump, it's his advisor,
[0:38] his key aid Nowt, who has been charged for being an accomplice in hiding
[0:44] the confidential materials. And given the fact that Trump is the only former president
[0:49] to be indicted, and that Joe Biden is also facing investigation for not revealing
[0:54] classified documents, how much of this investigation is going to be genuine and how
[0:59] much does it seemed like political vendetta. It is not as though or they're
[1:03] doing this only because of political vendetta. It is because Trump was in the
[1:07] wrong. Hello, I'm anna PREDESSIONI with India Today TV's Foreign Affairs editor Geta
[1:14] Mohan, where with Geta's astute and incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve
[1:19] into all that is urgent and pressing in world politics and comprehend how these developments
[1:26] in other countries could shape India's global ambitions of being a Vishwa Guru. Let's
[1:32] unravel Geta's World. Hello and welcome. This is the forty eighth episode of
[1:38] Geta's World. And like always, Geta is right here in the studio,
[1:42] how not like always like not like always more often, more often? I
[1:48] think, now, you know, these are one of those few days that
[1:51] you are in the studio. But later on, I think later this month,
[1:53] when the SEU starts again, you'll have to Yeah. No, I'm
[1:56] also not going to be around the coming week. I'll be in the US
[2:00] with covering the Prime Minister's minister's visit, first date visit. Yeah, yeah,
[2:06] of the Prime Minister. It's going to be a packed schedule because yes,
[2:09] we will discuss it backed schedule. There's so much that he's doing in
[2:14] the two three days that he's going to be there, and it's unusual in
[2:17] the US for a state visit to last three nights, So he's staying three
[2:22] nights and yeah, just about four days twenty second June, right twenty second
[2:28] onwards in DC twenty first, he's going to be New York for the International
[2:30] Day of Yoga. Okay, Also, Joe Biden has announced some intimate family
[2:36] meeting. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, so, but they are
[2:39] trying to make it different. They're trying to see, you know, both
[2:43] sides as to how they can make it different from the previous visits. So
[2:46] they're trying to add a lot of elements that we're not there. We'll talk
[2:50] about it, but yeah, it's going to be interesting. But that's the
[2:53] next month, the next week, the next week. Yeah, this week
[2:58] is we have a fire brand politician we'll be talking about, yes, that
[3:01] pertains to the US itself. So before that, I mean, how are
[3:07] you how how is your week tiring? We have new challenge ahead of us.
[3:13] We're looking at at more global world content for our network. Let's see
[3:21] how that works out. We're trying to right now we're on the storyboard,
[3:25] you know, stage, trying to figure out how to do it, how
[3:30] to do it well for our here it would be viewers, for our viewers
[3:34] of the network in data day network, and so that has that took a
[3:38] lot of our time, trying to build new properties that would appeal to people,
[3:45] simplify world news for them. Make it more India centric. If there
[3:51] is an event that's happening somewhere in the world, how does that impact India
[3:54] and Indians? Is the prism and the approach. Yes, that will be
[4:00] in our podcast as well. We try to delve the two. Yes,
[4:03] keep that intact. As in the kind of topics that we deal with.
[4:06] Most of the topics, some of them are far removed from India, like
[4:12] when we were doing the African crisis on and so forth. So if it's
[4:15] in South Asia, it's very India centric. How is it going to even
[4:19] Pakistan? How is it going to impact India? You know, that would
[4:23] we'd always end with that. But some of the recent topics that we picked
[4:29] up have a more global feature, so we'll also try to see that if
[4:32] it's a very global, featurish anniverse story, everything cannot be India centric.
[4:40] Yeah. True. So likewise, I mean this topic also is not entirely
[4:44] India centric. It's not inacentric, it's not at all. Yeah, but
[4:47] yes, we can end with yeah. Yeah. But we do look at
[4:53] US and closely follow the US politics, if not other countries. And Don
[5:00] Trump, former US president, he has been in the news for quite some
[5:03] time If somebody is familiar with the news US politics, I think they must
[5:09] be acquainted. But those who are not, I'll just give a brief as
[5:12] to what has happened. So, Donald Trump has been indicted by the federal
[5:16] government in the probe related to classified documents. And these charges against him include
[5:21] obstruction and unlawful retention of classified documents in violation of the Espionage Act. So
[5:30] these documents are also about like several highly secured documents pertaining to defense information,
[5:36] data on nuclear programs, data on the vulnerability of US's allies, amongst several
[5:43] others. And he's accused of storing these classified documents at his Florida resort and
[5:48] refusing to return them to the FBI and the National Archives. And he has,
[5:54] of course reacted to it. He only broke this news of his indictment
[5:58] on his social media site, which is called truth Social, and he said
[6:01] that I never thought it's possible that such a thing could happen to a former
[6:06] president of the United States. I am an innocent man. This is indeed
[6:11] a dark day for the United States of America. But this recent indictment follows
[6:16] Trump's previous charges in New York State Court where he was accused of falsifying business
[6:21] records in connection with the payment made to a pond Star. However, it's
[6:27] believed that this federal indictment in the classified documents probe differs significantly from the New
[6:32] York charges, and of course that carries more severe legal consequences for Trump as
[6:39] well. So in this episode, Guita and I will thoroughly examine his indictment,
[6:44] exploring its legal implications and how it could impact his political future. Also
[6:49] will analyze how this development affects the public's perception of Trump, his legacy,
[6:56] and what impact it has on the political landscape of the United States. So,
[7:00] Gita, let's start. Let's address the obvious questions first, like what
[7:04] do these charges entail? If you could, you know, break down all
[7:09] these charges and also tell me like how grave these charges are? What are
[7:13] what's the most striking or probably surprising charge that you thought that you know,
[7:17] this was not possible and this happened, and um, you know, how
[7:23] are these more grave in fact than the earlier ones? When when Trump was
[7:27] charged in the New York State court, and what are the chances of him
[7:31] being arrested and you know and tried for these felonies that here. Okay,
[7:36] that's that's quite many questions and put together. But before I begin, I
[7:44] have an interesting snippet so U in the West and for for former presidents,
[7:51] vice presidents, secretary of State in the US, I think it has become
[7:57] commonplace to withhold papers or to take carry the papers. While Trump is the
[8:03] only one who has been indicted by a federal court, vice president, then
[8:09] Vice president and now President Biden is facing charges. Hillary Clinton faced charges,
[8:13] it seems like it's common, unlike South Asia, where the only thing that
[8:20] they're charged off is taking gifts out of them rather than papers. They're more
[8:26] interested in sovereign gifts, like Imran Khan facing charges in the Tosha Khana case.
[8:31] It's basically treasury for sovereign gifts given by foreign states. And in this
[8:39] part of the world it's the gifts that are if they're expensive and pretty,
[8:45] then leaders tend to take them home. Here, it seems like the documents
[8:50] are quite important, so they focus on the documents. Having said that,
[8:54] that was on a lighter note, The seriousness of this case is quite evident,
[9:01] with not just the fact that there is an federal court indictment but also
[9:07] the counts. There are thirty seven counts of charges of felony against President Trump,
[9:13] which includes quite a few violations. One is, obviously you're taking secret
[9:20] documents, confidential documents out that itself is a violation of the Official Secrets Act
[9:26] or the equivalent over there. It also he also took a lot of information,
[9:33] military strategic information that if reaches the wrong hands or is shared with the
[9:39] wrong people, could mean severe threat to the state. Then he also is
[9:50] there are charges of conspiracy and conspiring to not just with whole data and information,
[9:56] but also obstruction of justice. Which what is the difference between him and
[10:01] the previous and all the other cases is that he showed absolute reluctance in parting
[10:07] with the documents. That is telling because once he left office, the authorities
[10:15] started asking for the documents. They knew the documents that have not been returned,
[10:20] and they kept asking. He just wouldn't. He would say he doesn't
[10:26] have it or whatever. He stalled them. It's only then that they had
[10:30] to take action and that the FBI officials were sent and documents were found in
[10:37] various corners of the house, including the bathroom, his bedroom. It's not
[10:43] just office space. For example, Joe Biden, the documents were found in
[10:48] his office, and when they said, oh, you have these documents,
[10:52] this is against law and rules, we need to check all your properties,
[10:58] they openly said, yes, it might have come in all the packing over
[11:01] here. Reporters do say that Donald Trump was so confident that he's not going
[11:07] to lose the elections, and the fact that he did not trust these results.
[11:13] He was not planning on moving out. So when he actually was planned,
[11:18] when he was actually told that this is it, you have to move
[11:22] out, everything was done in a lot of rush. So the packing happened
[11:26] in a rush. Everybody was packing everything they could find. That's one way
[11:30] of explaining things that certain quarters do in terms of you know, why and
[11:35] how did the boxes reach Marla go right, But that's only an explanation at
[11:41] the end of the day, even if you picked it up unawares, when
[11:46] you were informed and you showed reluctance. And then and then there's this one
[11:54] instance of a meeting with an author of a book where he's mentioning these documents.
[12:00] Now, why is that important? The transcript of that entire meeting is
[12:03] part of these charges. Why because that forms the basis of how a dreadfully
[12:11] serious these charges are. Where Donald Trump, according to the transcript, is
[12:16] saying to the people in the room, that I have these details. I
[12:22] can't tell you, but I'm going to tell you. But it's a top
[12:26] secret. But I'm going to tell you the fact that you have this major
[12:31] security you know, intel on you, and you're willing to share it,
[12:39] knowing fully well that it is in violation. Because he says it in that
[12:43] transcript, I know it is not. It's not to and yet he's willing
[12:48] to. We don't know whether he did or not. But that forms the
[12:52] basis of how serious the charges are. So that's how serious the charges are.
[12:56] But what happens to him if he is charged, But for now,
[13:03] I think the charging and prosecution, if it all he's found guilty, is
[13:09] a tedious and a long process. It's not going to you know, it
[13:13] has only begun now. It'll take a long time. Him being no.
[13:18] It is basically his presidential nomination that everybody's questioning whether if he'd be able to
[13:24] do or not run or not run for president or not. I think he
[13:30] will be able to, yeah, because I think this case will be more
[13:35] prolonged than that unless there's political quote unquote political will to expedite matters. Because
[13:43] if today there's somebody who's actually a contender in the Republican Party race for the
[13:52] presidential nomination, it is him exactly. The others hard their numbers have dwindled,
[13:58] popularity has decreased, So it is that. Yeah, that is why,
[14:03] I mean, it's being said that it's a political vendetta that because the
[14:07] timing is important, you know, it's all these revelations are coming right there
[14:13] when the twenty twenty four elections are due. The previous cases are different.
[14:16] The previous cases it's about having an affair and then paying for it, so
[14:20] on and so for there. But there is a case of abuse as well.
[14:24] Then there's criminality in terms of tax evasion. So these are other cases.
[14:28] He was indicted once, but he's very confident that it will not go
[14:33] through because Republicans still have the number, and he says it might might not
[14:37] go through this time. Also, so the impeachment, I'm sorry, the
[14:41] impeachment, so that they did not have the numbers, but indictment over here
[14:46] is going to be within the realm of the judiciary, so it might be
[14:50] a tedious process, but it is one that Yeah, but I want to
[14:54] understand that, like what could have been Trumps. You know, we know
[14:58] him as this persona this entity, how he has been conducting himself, Like
[15:03] how he differs from every other you know, political leaders and presidents that we
[15:07] have had in the United States. But what could have been his motive behind
[15:13] keeping these classified documents with him even after losing his presidency? Like I was
[15:18] just wondering that, you know, is this the behavior of the classic wow
[15:22] megalomaniac who thinks that, you know, he's still the president when he's not.
[15:26] Or could he have used those documents for personal gain? Like maybe you
[15:33] know, spouted the insights and those documents as his wisdom during his campaign for
[15:39] the upcoming elections, Like what does the gossip tell you? So I'll tell
[15:43] you what the reporters over they're discussing that he in all probability, So all
[15:48] the classified material does not go through the President's table the president's desk. Quite
[15:54] a few of them, too cool, But it's only need to know basis,
[16:00] and it's also only for him to be aware not to keep it's supposed
[16:03] to be sent back. And some of them were not sent back. Now
[16:07] why I was listening to a few of these journalists. Some of them said
[16:11] that, you know, he is a collector if he sees something and he
[16:15] sees value and worth and he sees that, you know. Okay, the
[16:18] second, which is why he was boasting about it when the no in the
[16:22] meeting with the author and rest of his team, and his team some of
[16:29] them are also you know, there are charges against them also of having colluded.
[16:33] Because if you're hiding the documents, if you're keeping it and the other
[16:37] person knows, it's a criminal offense. It's an offense. It's a federal
[16:41] offense because this is the White House documents, secret documents of the CIA and
[16:47] the rest of the agencies intelligencies that we're talking about. So he has had
[16:52] you know. So there have been conversations about how maybe it was just for
[16:57] keepsakes, that he was collecting things that he thought he might want later,
[17:03] need later, or want to boast about later. But that's only one of
[17:07] the reasons why. I think he also kept some of them to say that,
[17:12] look, this is what we're doing, and this is what we're planning
[17:15] on doing. But apart from that, I don't see why would Hilary Clinton
[17:21] have done what she did or why would Biden. None of them, none
[17:25] of them, I think, had anything that was against detrimental to the security
[17:30] and future of their own country. That way, they're quite nationalistic in their
[17:36] attitude in mindset, So I don't think it was to harm the United States
[17:40] of America. It was more to do with the fact that he wanted to
[17:42] keep what he wanted. But I mean, there's a possibility that it could
[17:45] be leaked as well. That's the only problem that the fact that he didn't
[17:52] realize the magnitude of what he's done. And it is such an irony because
[17:57] his entire political plank when he was fighting the first term, the only term
[18:06] fighting Hillary Clinton, Anna, was about the fact that she kept she did
[18:11] this, She did that with you know, US documents and intelligence and so
[18:15] forth, and now now you your satand fire. For one surprises me.
[18:21] He did not for once think that, well, my entire political pole plank
[18:27] during elections was taking on Hillary Clinton for the liar that she was cheat,
[18:33] that she was putting the country at risk, all of that and more,
[18:37] and he ended up doing almost similar but far Graver, far Graver Yeah,
[18:44] you know, offense than Hillary because they're all in the wrong. Yeah,
[18:51] when you're leaving office, you have to be very mindful of what the government
[18:55] rules are, whether it is he in the US or in India or in
[19:00] Pakistan. Rules should remain same. We've had controversies in India also about Tosha
[19:04] Khana, Sekiaia kissman three kiss. You know all of that and it's not
[19:10] new in our region. Again, like I said, it might not have
[19:14] to do documents, but rules are rules. You cannot take things that are
[19:18] owned by the state. I mean a lot has been said, you know
[19:22] Donald Trump as a leader, but I mean the instances that you've just recounted,
[19:26] like you'll just see things and you'll start collecting and he would boast,
[19:30] then he would accuse you know, your fellow counterparts of something that you end
[19:34] up doing almost similar and then graver things. I mean, what does it
[19:38] tell about that sort of a leader like and then he knows that you know,
[19:42] I mean, I mean he goes and declares that he's an innocent man,
[19:45] and I feel to classified details. Also have details about the nuclear program.
[19:52] Yeah, exactly, really really scary. It's and plans of attacks by
[19:55] the United States of America. I mean, we had had most entire discussion
[20:00] the Pentagon leagues, right, So these are although Pentagon leagues are secrets that
[20:04] when they come out, they can have huge diplomatic repercussions. Right, Pentagon
[20:11] leagues did have countries were questioning, friends and allies were questioning, why are
[20:15] we being snooped upon? So if Donald Trump goes with that knowledge outside and
[20:21] he starts speaking to those countries, it's a huge problem. Yeah. So
[20:26] you know, despite being indicted in the New York case, Trump has not
[20:30] been deterred from running office running for office, although you know his upcoming trial
[20:34] in March twenty four could post significant challenges for his campaign. But there is
[20:41] no constitutional battle, like you said, preventing someone from running for president,
[20:45] violent prison or even getting elected while behind bars. And there have been several
[20:49] examples as well in the past. Now, like you said that he would
[20:52] be, he's not being politically handicapped in terms of like running for elections.
[21:00] And considering the views of experts who suggest that Trump could potentially be elected also
[21:04] despite facing a second indictment, I'm just wondering that what he's like really stands
[21:11] to lose in this situation, like how much impact does the indictment really have
[21:18] on his political prospects and public support. It could be huge only in terms
[21:23] of being disqualified if he's prosecuted, which is which is a long long way
[21:30] off. So in all probability, we will be seeing the elections before But
[21:34] even in that, if you're asking about the prospects of Trump, the hearings
[21:41] will begin. When the hearings begin, it's not just Trump, it's his
[21:45] advisor, his key aid now to who has been charged for being an accomplice
[21:52] in hiding the confidential materials. If he turns a prover, yeah, because
[21:57] he has everything to lose and nothing to gain out of this controversy. If
[22:03] he turns approval of under oath, if he starts telling the truth, which
[22:07] will mean it's a huge, huge, and a very damaging event. So
[22:14] to say, for the former president, Trump is going to have a very
[22:18] difficult time explaining to the voters of America as to why they should be voting
[22:25] for him. But look at the other side of it. One is that
[22:29] he will have a challenge of winning the primaries in the Republican Party because they
[22:33] don't have a sitting president. There would be primaries that would be held to
[22:37] select or elect the nominee for the presidential race. Right now, after all
[22:47] the controversies, recent controversies revolving many other Republicans, Ron de Santists also does
[22:55] not enjoy as much popularity in support that Trump does. So Trump has a
[23:00] very firm voter base. Yeah, like Ian has also been starting, yes,
[23:07] and that has not shaken moved to the election season. And you will
[23:14] have if you have a Trump and a Biden, who I think is has
[23:19] already said that he'll be running a second for the second term. That would
[23:23] be quite devastating for maybe the Democrats. He is, he's liked if he's
[23:32] running opposite Trump, He's already eighty and so while people might like him,
[23:40] I don't know how many people think he should be running for the second time.
[23:44] Yeah. True, And let's see whether if he actually does or not.
[23:48] Also, you know, given the fact that you know Trump is the
[23:52] only former president to be indicted, and that Joe Biden is also facing investigation
[23:57] for not revealing clouds fied documents, how much of this investigation you think is
[24:03] going to be genuine and how much does it seem like political vendetta, considering
[24:07] the fact that Biden himself is struggling to maintain his appeal as a presidential candidate,
[24:14] given concerns about his old age and him turning seni and just you know,
[24:18] generally low approval ratings for him. So Anna, you've seen that Trump
[24:23] has already said that, you know, there's a witch hunt against him.
[24:27] But look at the cases. Okay, there was an investigation against Hillary Clinton,
[24:32] there's an ongoing investigation, and a special counsel has been appointed for the
[24:36] case of Joe Biden as well. This is the sitting president, so we
[24:41] know that you know this is it is not as though they are not or
[24:48] they're doing this only because of political vendetta. It is because Trump was in
[24:52] the wrong. Look at the charges against him. Let's look at the laws.
[24:56] A provision of the Espionage Act that prohibits the return of classified materials,
[25:02] the statue that prohibits the obstruction of an official proceeding. What was this about?
[25:06] This was about National Archives asking him to return the documents and he didn't.
[25:11] A statue that prohibits falsifying or destroying records pertinent to a federal investigation.
[25:18] What did they try to do? They tried to do away with the papers
[25:22] as well. Right, So these are statutes prohibiting false statements and conspiracy.
[25:27] He lied, he said he did not have a few things they shared till
[25:33] there was a raid and those fifteen boxes were retrieved. So there is a
[25:37] huge problem over here. Not because this is political vendatta, It is because
[25:42] Trump did wrong. My whole leaders should be doing it and they should be
[25:48] investigated. Hillary Clinton did not win accolades for having done what she did with
[25:52] her emails and did nor did Joe Biden. Although yes, the discovery of
[25:59] him having held documents was much much later, but it almost felt like it
[26:04] went with his boxes and when they found something and he immediately said please go
[26:10] ahead. Yeah, Trump was reluctant. Trump did not allow checks till the
[26:15] FBI went storming in and retrieved what was THEIRS or the National Archives. So
[26:22] there is a problem over here. He did wrong. And there's no reason
[26:26] why the government could could follow through a witch hunt process against Donald Trump if
[26:36] there was no basis for anything. And these are serious charges, No,
[26:40] of course these are. But like you said, like it's a long process,
[26:42] and but in terms of like whether he's arrested or whether he's tried whatever
[26:48] will be the charges I mean, the charges will be proved against him or
[26:52] not. That's a long process. But if, like you know, after
[26:56] a certain point of time, if Trump is actually not faced with any sort
[26:59] of reperpet politically or as his image as a leader and of course like legally
[27:04] whatever the course of action would be, doesn't, then this give like a
[27:08] freeway to people contesting in future and then become the president and then handing up
[27:14] like the way Trump did, or because he was when he was in position,
[27:18] he you know, pointed fingers at Hillary Clinton and now he ended up
[27:22] doing the same thing, so he isn't like a then a vicious cycle.
[27:25] And then you're like, okay, I've predecessors did that and they got away.
[27:27] So which is why I said, it's quite interesting taking documents away from
[27:33] the office. It's quite a common place, I think in the United States
[27:37] of America. But it's not that it's the predicament yea of where will he
[27:42] be charged, where will the hearing take place? Which city are the prosecutors
[27:48] looking at? That's quite interesting. Now I'll just give you details of what
[27:52] again, chatter that you know I've picked up and reports. So the Federal
[27:59] Courthouse Miami is where the hearing is taking place. This is part of which
[28:06] includes Palm Beach sector as well. I'll come to that where mar Lago is
[28:11] located is why I'm saying. So, now what happens over here is that
[28:19] we're looking at mar Lago, where the documents investigation was taking place led by
[28:25] Special Council Smith and has been based on, and where a grand jury heard
[28:34] from numerous witnesses and gathered evidence in the probe. Okay, now they are
[28:41] also looking beyond Miami because the indictments would cover range of counts and some covering
[28:52] acts covering up acts from Washington, DC, So DC could be one of
[28:56] the places. Now, if it is DC, the jury would be very
[29:00] different. The political views of the jury pools is going to be very different.
[29:04] So I suppose Trump will also want to see where their trials are going
[29:11] to be held because he stands a better chance, yeah, and maybe a
[29:15] more sympathetic view of him in Palm Beach County rather than Washington, DC.
[29:22] But this is also something that is being discussed. So an interesting snippet,
[29:29] you know, to understand where the sympathy votes come from, where he was
[29:32] winning where he was losing. In twenty twenty, he lost the election,
[29:36] but he got forty three percent of the votes, but in DC he only
[29:40] got sixers set yea, which is why his team will be very very perturbed.
[29:47] And yeah, I would have the jitters if the trial moves to DC
[29:52] right now, they would want to keep it confined to Miami and see where
[29:56] it's headed. So it's going to be a very tedious process. You know,
[30:00] this is going to be long drawn, a long drawn affair, right.
[30:03] I just want to focus like a bit on you know, Trump's supporters
[30:10] and you know, their view of how they look at Trump and whether all
[30:15] these developments have kind of you know, affected their thinking and their perception about
[30:21] Trump. I mean, which is hard and tough like, but still I
[30:23] just want to address this. And he like he was squirted saying that in
[30:27] terms of elections, I wouldn't even think about leaving. Probably it will enhance
[30:33] my numbers. So he's coming from this, uh you know, thought so
[30:37] like these numbers that Trump is very assured of those people you know who approve
[30:42] of Trump as their leader. A bit on that, because Trump's popularity,
[30:48] it's like it's noteworthy you know Albert for reasons that many many may consider inappropriate,
[30:53] like this entire one term of presidency, his face, like allegation of
[31:00] sexual assault. But he still is the strongest man within the Republican Party.
[31:03] It's amazing, Yes, within the party. Yes, but he's like displayed
[31:07] a fascination with you know, Authoritaian leaders. He was widely criticized for his
[31:12] apparent affinity for racists. So despite these controversies, you know, a considerable
[31:18] portion of America's white evangelical Christians, they remained in a steadfast and their support
[31:26] for him. And I'm reason I'm like mentioning this them specifically because I think
[31:30] evangelicalism has become as much a political as it always has just identity, Yeah,
[31:37] it always has been. In the US. Church is a very important
[31:41] part of the political ecosystem. Yes, of the country. Yes. And
[31:48] Trump has shown all his church and religious credentials every time he speaks. Look
[31:56] at the kind of judgments, look at what he's done. He's put Christian
[32:00] above all. He's put race above all too, but Christian above all in
[32:07] many ways than one. So yes, and despite that, all I can
[32:13] say, Anna is that we live in a very polarized world today beat where
[32:16] we are sitting today or in the United States of America, it's a very
[32:22] polarized world. And there was a time when people would, out of decency
[32:28] not speak of their affiliation because they'd be they know what is right on moral
[32:32] grounds, what is right and what is wrong? The moral compuss has moved
[32:37] in the US. You can see that shift where there blase So if so
[32:45] what if he, you know, paid a woman hush money? So what
[32:51] if he's speaking in the manner some of the videos you know, allegedly he
[32:57] was seen speaking in a very derogatory manner. So what if somebody's accused him
[33:02] of sexual abuse? They're okay, they say, he's still better than this
[33:07] one. He is still there's a comparison, this shift of a society being
[33:14] so polarized to the extent that they are not just accepting, but forgiving of
[33:20] the crimes which in the past would have been absolutely unacceptable to talk about.
[33:25] And you say that or show support for somebody who's indulged in such acts.
[33:31] That shift has already happened in the US. We've spoken about it in so
[33:36] many of our shows. That shift of polarization is it's already happened. It's
[33:39] there. So now we see a Republican voter based so strongly, staunchly standing
[33:46] behind Trump. In fact, there are some fundy videos if you go on
[33:52] these social media platforms and you look for videos even now, not so long
[34:00] ago, there was this social media a young fellow who goes and asks questions
[34:06] around. They said, who's the president? Some of them actually said Donald
[34:09] Trump because they actually believe that the entire election process was a farce and that
[34:16] Trump was cheated off his win of his victory. Wow, so there are
[34:21] people who say it's Trump. Is he not there? Yes, that's how
[34:25] ingrained it is. So that's how much of a crowd bull because I mean,
[34:31] it goes hard and hard now, like political leaders are also like trying
[34:35] on this particular mindset that the that their voter basis. But this mindset is
[34:43] much recent where you're so blass and open about accepting leaders who have done wrong.
[34:52] Earlier, you know, you say there was some decency, you'd be
[35:00] little hesitant in accepting that you like a particular leader or support particular party because
[35:07] of their stand and their ideology. Now it doesn't make a difference even if
[35:12] you're a white supremacist. They will garner a lot of support from people who
[35:16] are white supremacists and who came out Capitol Hill violence was an example, and
[35:23] of course he faces charges there as well. Yeah, I mean it's like
[35:29] very introspector. Yes, insights, but just wanted to add this and I
[35:35] read this in The Guardian one of the articles and Guardian who the writer says
[35:39] that evangelical leaders justified their endorsement of Trump by drawing a parallel with King Cyrus
[35:46] from biblical accounts, and despite being a Persian ruler who did not share the
[35:52] same beliefs as the God of Israel, Cyrus liberated the Jews from Babylonian captivity.
[35:58] Similarly, Trump was seen as an imperfect vessel by evangelicals, meaning that
[36:04] God was using him to restore political and cultural influence to white conservative Christians,
[36:12] white supremacists, white supremacists. So yeah, I mean that was quite interesting.
[36:16] But no, but that is true. Actually, you know, it's
[36:20] interesting that you say that because that's where he derives his strength from. Because
[36:24] one of the places where he derives his strength from. There's so many others
[36:29] who actually think outside us are a problem. You know, we're losing our
[36:32] own jobs, so on and so forth. And if you see his track
[36:36] record, he's the only president I think who has not taken his country to
[36:39] war that speaks volumes. He took some very tough decisions which now even the
[36:47] current administration it's irreversible, decisions like pullout from Afghanistan, while the world,
[36:53] like we in this part of the world, are condemning it and say that
[36:57] it should not have happened the way it did. But the thing is that
[37:00] for Americans, no more body bags home. That's very important, actually very
[37:04] important at that and nobody can say that it was not Trumps. They all
[37:07] kept quiet about it although they knew that this was a very haphasar decision.
[37:13] Look at what is happening in Afghanistan. Trump doesn't care, and the Americans
[37:19] who care care for them their own people more so, they're like, this
[37:22] was a very unpopular international decision that only a Trump could have taken. Otherwise
[37:30] they would have reversed the decision. They haven't reversed the decision. They didn't
[37:34] say we'll go back exactly. They still at the decision. There are a
[37:38] lot of people who have who thank him a lot, especially those maybe who
[37:43] lost their loved ones at war in Afghanistan and other places. So there are
[37:49] a few things where he only thought of America more than anything else, not
[37:53] even too strategic to the extent that he could have lost allies when he told
[37:59] how South Korea that why are we paying for your security? That's because you
[38:05] want strategic space in the know, you pay for your own. And then
[38:08] to NATO members, he said the wise America paying them largest amount, everybody
[38:15] should do it equally, which is quite upsetting because the others are not that
[38:19] big. They're not big economies, so to your size. But he said
[38:23] that you guys will have to start paying more. These are unpopular statements,
[38:29] but look at the larger picture. He was only thinking for America and how
[38:34] America should look. And it's not like he didn't have black you know people
[38:38] and people from the black community in his office or in his um in his
[38:45] team. Wasn't like he did not look at whom he married, not just
[38:52] Millennia, even his ex and late wife. Now you know, yeah,
[38:58] they're not Americans. Yeah, when he came to party was his slogan was
[39:02] make America great again. But he did a lot to take it to that.
[39:10] He did I mean, he's like, given, I wouldn't agree with
[39:14] his policies. Yeah, I wouldn't even agree with his social social policies for
[39:19] sure, but not even his economic policies. But he was thinking for his
[39:22] country and a lot of people even if he was not or it was not
[39:27] good for America suppose, but people who were seeing that decisions saw it as
[39:32] though Trump was only thinking for America and nobody else. I'm telling you,
[39:39] why would you otherwise kick up a problem with a NATO and with South Korea?
[39:45] Yeah, you need South Korea, South Korea needs you. It's an
[39:47] alignment of great significance, strategic importance. Meet with PISA, China or North
[39:53] Korea technologically and yeah otherwise also otherwise as well. Yeah, this lastly,
[40:00] you know, before we wind up our conversation, I want to address this
[40:05] that you know, it's a year to the elections and we know Trump would
[40:07] be contesting. But in terms of like his potential return, you know,
[40:13] it has elicited diverse sort of reactions from foreign leaders, ranging from you hope
[40:19] to horror his potential return to the White House has it has sparked like varied
[40:23] reactions. Despite Trump's recent indictment in New York or the current one. Many
[40:30] leaders have observed his political resilience, which has influenced their outlook on, you
[40:36] know, on his prospects. I was reading in an inviting article Mike Ladler.
[40:40] He wrote that European leaders, who experienced years of contentious interactions with Trump
[40:49] express concerns that even if his legal issues diminish his political viability, another Trump
[40:55] like candidate could emerge as a Republican alternative to and he cited the example of
[41:00] the prominence of Ron D. Santis, the governor of Florida, as a
[41:06] potential challengers. So if you could tell me, like, how do you
[41:09] know foreign leaders perceive the ongoing rise of Trump like candidates and the potential for
[41:16] you know, isolationism to persist in America American politics, Like does the international
[41:22] community view Trump's legal troubles as a distinct phenomenon or as part of a broader
[41:30] trend of populist and nationalistic movements? It is distinct. The world can see
[41:37] it is it is not. It has not been done before, it has
[41:42] not happened before. So they are looking at America and American politics change quite
[41:49] a bit. A lot of them embroiled in various cases. Trump will be
[41:53] embroiled in cases all through his selection campaign. So it is going to be
[41:58] very difficult for Trump. What is happening in his previous indictment in the case
[42:02] in New York. He the next hearing is scheduled for the trial a scheduled
[42:07] for March twenty twenty four. He'll be banging in the middle of his campaign
[42:12] should he win the primaries. So it is going to be very difficult.
[42:16] But how is the world seeing it? I think the world is looking at
[42:20] it as some of them consider it. Yes, political wind that are political
[42:24] politics being played, you know through courts, so on and so forth.
[42:29] But like I said, mistakes were made. This is Espionage Act, official
[42:35] secrets you know that were and documents that were taken. And they also see
[42:42] sense in international community sense in the process. It's a sturdy, you know,
[42:49] administration, democratic instructure with very strong institutions. So if a person is
[42:57] caught, like the question is, can he actually be arrested. Yes,
[43:01] under the Espionage Act, if he's found guilty, he will be arrested,
[43:07] and that will happen maybe after the presidential elections. But twenty twenty four March
[43:12] is the date for his New York, you know, criminal case, and
[43:16] that will be banging in the middle of when he's absolutely in campaign more so
[43:22] on and so forth. So it is going to be a difficult one.
[43:27] But nobody is if you see the international community, nobody in terms of leaders,
[43:31] voices, countries, nobody's trying to wane. Yeah, this is only
[43:37] a thought you know, of saying that. Okay, the countries think it
[43:39] is distinct. It is different from past. It has never happened before.
[43:44] He's the only president to be enticed twice and impeached, so never happened before.
[43:52] But it's happening right now. This man is different. But this man
[43:58] is somebody. If he comes back to power, they'll have to do business
[44:00] with exact So they're very careful. So you'll not see a lot of statements
[44:06] from state states and the possibility of his re emergence. Yes, and even
[44:10] if he so imagine, even if he is not or if he does not
[44:15] win the primaries, he will still be an important politician. Should he win
[44:20] his cases. Oh yeah, clearly, you know, and how long if
[44:24] he's indicted, if he's charged criminally, then there will be there will be
[44:31] a sentence there will be sentencing, he will appeal, There could be sentencing
[44:37] again. If there is, he will have to serve term. Whatever the
[44:42] time period. It might not be very long, but it will certainly not
[44:45] be very short. Whatever the time period, he'll have to serve that and
[44:49] come back or he will come back in that very same political space. Although
[44:53] he's also not very young, so it's not like one young man is fighting
[44:58] an older elderly person. They're both old. Yeah, just that he's alert,
[45:07] he knows what he wants right now. His me he does not care
[45:10] for means and methods, is the reason why he's stuck today where he is.
[45:15] If he's more conscientious and ethical. This is not a case that a
[45:19] sitting president or a former president should be fighting, be Joe Biden where he's
[45:23] cooperating, or Donald Trump who did not cooperate. But the world see that.
[45:30] They're seeing that. It is that things are quite crazy in the US
[45:34] right now politically and quite polarized. So in that polarization, a lot is
[45:42] working for India in a certain way, because even in the polarization, neither
[45:47] party wants to displease India or have any problems, which is why you see
[45:55] the positive trajectory. So in terms of statement, in terms of the kind
[46:00] of projection, what you're seeing is you're seeing you're seeing a Trump who is
[46:09] who is going to be forced to reckon with in the United States of America.
[46:15] So all the countries over here outside of the US are waiting to see
[46:20] what's going to happen. Like, for example, normally what happens is when
[46:24] there's a state visit, there's always meetings with the opposition leader. So I
[46:30] think Prime Minister Maudy will be meeting Republican senators or senators and congressmen across the
[46:36] board. He's going to address the joint Meeting of the Congress. But I
[46:40] have in the itinery, I don't see for all the bond whom me that
[46:45] we saw between Murdy and Trump all through his tenure. I don't see a
[46:50] meeting as if now in the schedule with President former President Donald Trump that speaks
[46:58] volumes. You maintain a distance, but you do not fall out because you
[47:02] never know how things are going to pan out in the US. Yeah,
[47:06] but this could be changed, I mean absolutely absolutely. If he's charged,
[47:10] he'll become pariah. If he's prosecuted and sentenced, he'll become pariah, depending
[47:17] on again on what the sentencing will look like in terms of number of years
[47:23] or whatever. Yeah, I mean how strict and how long it will be
[47:28] incarcerated for true, Yes, I think a lot to be looked after things
[47:34] actually take place and actions are taken or not taken. And how then eventually
[47:40] the US politics, like you said, is completely polarized, how this pans
[47:45] out. I think we'll have a look in the coming months and years,
[47:50] both so and also your you would be visiting the US and you'll be tracking,
[47:55] so maybe after you are back here we could have a discussion on what
[48:00] really and if Prime Minister Moody happened to meet Donald Trump. If he did,
[48:07] then what was the kind of conversation, what did come out? So
[48:10] we'll have a look at it. So till then, thank you so much.
[48:15] Geta thank you Anna. Always interesting to have these conversations to our listeners
[48:20] that say, please write to us, let us know what you want to
[48:23] know about or to talk about. We have some interesting conversations coming up.
[48:30] We'll be touching fifty soon and fifty two would mean a year, so that
[48:35] call for celebration. And I'm getting a trade from geta absolutely so let's see
[48:42] what we do. But again appreciate all the love and support that we're receiving
[48:50] for the podcast. Yes, thank you so much, thank you, and
[48:53] just the number that you can reach out to us is eight five, double
[48:57] eight to nine, double six, double line six and the email ideas,
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