# Syria Crisis : Will HTS leader al-Jolani be a reformist or Al-Qaeda lite? | Geeta's World, Ep 112

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 11 Dec 2024, 48 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/63265369/11_dec_24_gw_11_dec_128.mp3

On December 8, rebel forces stormed Damascus and ousted President Bashar al-Assad, who had been ruling Syria since 2000. Reports suggest Assad has fled to Russia, where he has sought asylum. For over 53 years, the Assad family—first Hafez, then Bashar—has governed Syria. So how did the Assads, an Alawite Shia family, a minority in Syria, maintain control in a predominantly Sunni country? Now, the question is: who will govern Syria? One potential leader is HTS chief Abu Mohammed al-Jolani. He has pledged to protect minorities and women and says he has no intentions to impose strict Islamic law. However, his complex past suggests he could shift his political stance as needed. Will al-Jolani emerge as a reformist, or will he follow a path akin to Al-Qaeda? Produced by Anna Priyadarshini Sound Mix by Nitin Rawat Chapters: (4:25) — Shia rule over Sunni majority for 53 years (12:57) — How rebel forces toppled the govt (17:05) — Will Al-Jolani govern Syria? (25:26) — Syria, a fragmented country (28:46) — Arab world's dynamics (30:29) — Russia and Iran abandoned Syria? (40:04) — Is the Assad dynasty long gone?

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: This is Inia Today podcasts.
[0:06] Speaker 2: On eighth of December, rebel forces stopped Damascus and howsted
[0:10] Speaker 2: President Bashar al Asad, who had been ruling Syria since
[0:14] Speaker 2: two thousand. Reports suggest Asath has fled to Russia, where
[0:17] Speaker 2: he has sought asylum. For over fifty three years, the
[0:21] Speaker 2: Assad family has governed Syria. So how did the Assats
[0:24] Speaker 2: and Alawhite Shia family, a minority in Syria, maintain control
[0:29] Speaker 2: in a predominantly Sunni country.
[0:31] Speaker 3: The Alawites are a minority population in Syria, but also
[0:35] Speaker 3: very influential one and have been in important places in
[0:38] Speaker 3: the army. So the military takeover took place in nineteen
[0:43] Speaker 3: seventy and then after which you saw this cult figure,
[0:48] Speaker 3: cult worship sort of a thing that came about in Syria.
[0:51] Speaker 3: And since then we've seen the Assad family rule Syria.
[0:56] Speaker 2: And now the question is who will govern Syria. One
[0:58] Speaker 2: potential leader is HTS chief Abu Muhammad al Julani. He
[1:03] Speaker 2: has pledged to protect minorities and women and says he
[1:06] Speaker 2: has no intentions to impose strict Islamic law, but his
[1:10] Speaker 2: complex past suggests he could shift his political stance as needed.
[1:15] Speaker 2: So will al Julani emerge as a reformist or will
[1:18] Speaker 2: he follow a path akin to al Qaeda.
[1:21] Speaker 3: There were protests against Jilani in Itab and the descent
[1:25] Speaker 3: was not tolerated. There were people who were imprisoned, and
[1:27] Speaker 3: now there are protests and demands to release individuals who
[1:31] Speaker 3: were imprisoned in Itlib because they were dissenting Jailani. How
[1:35] Speaker 3: are you very different from Asath? How are you going
[1:37] Speaker 3: to be very different from Asath?
[1:39] Speaker 2: Right? Hello, I'm Anna Prada Shani with India Today TV's
[1:45] Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs Editor Gita Mohan. Where with Gita's astute and
[1:49] Speaker 2: incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve into all that
[1:53] Speaker 2: is urgent and pressing in world politics and comprehend how
[1:57] Speaker 2: these developments in other countries could shape India's global ambitions.
[2:01] Speaker 2: Of being a wish for Guru, Let's unravel Geeta's World.
[2:06] Speaker 2: Hello and welcome. This is one hundred and twelve episode
[2:09] Speaker 2: of Gita's World. Hi, Guita, how are you?
[2:12] Speaker 3: I am fine?
[2:13] Speaker 1: How's the week being?
[2:14] Speaker 3: Like? It's always busy with? For me, it has been
[2:17] Speaker 3: a never ending ride of foreign policy.
[2:22] Speaker 2: The word ouster has like yes, it's been stuck with yes, yes.
[2:27] Speaker 1: The kind of scenes they've seen.
[2:29] Speaker 3: We've seen people come go, new administrations, new regimes, old
[2:35] Speaker 3: ones fall, and the latest being Syria always happens on
[2:38] Speaker 3: a weekend. Anna, always on a weekend, And I keep saying,
[2:43] Speaker 3: can this just wait a few more hours? That Yeah,
[2:50] Speaker 3: So yes, Sunday went in seeing ASA leave.
[2:54] Speaker 1: Right Syria, which is what.
[2:57] Speaker 3: Yeah, we will be discussing lots of.
[2:59] Speaker 2: Things that I really want to ask you so because
[3:02] Speaker 2: Middle East in itself is like we've discussed so many
[3:05] Speaker 2: times and pegging on Israel Hama's war, you know, discussing.
[3:10] Speaker 3: This is going to be very interesting. This is going
[3:12] Speaker 3: to be this is going to be a very interesting
[3:14] Speaker 3: conversation because you wanted one out, but are you okay
[3:18] Speaker 3: with the other that has come in.
[3:20] Speaker 1: Right for the other. That's what people are saying.
[3:23] Speaker 3: One dictator for another fundamentalist and Islamist.
[3:27] Speaker 1: But he is coming.
[3:29] Speaker 3: I mean, let's let's let's not yeah, like I need
[3:31] Speaker 3: to let's go go one by one by one.
[3:34] Speaker 1: Yes.
[3:36] Speaker 2: So on Sunday, eighth of December, we saw the rebel forces,
[3:41] Speaker 2: uh you know, storming into Syria's capital, Damascus and austing
[3:45] Speaker 2: it's long standing president Basha. Asad Now reports are suggesting
[3:50] Speaker 2: that he has fled to Russia like Moscow and put
[3:53] Speaker 2: In is there to you know, shelter him. So for
[3:56] Speaker 2: over fifty three years, we've seen the Asat family, you know,
[4:00] Speaker 2: first Hafiz Alasa his father, then Busher, although as far
[4:04] Speaker 2: as I did, Basher was not the you know, the
[4:06] Speaker 2: real choice.
[4:07] Speaker 1: To actually inherit.
[4:08] Speaker 2: I think it was supposed to be his brother who
[4:11] Speaker 2: apparently died in a car accident.
[4:13] Speaker 1: So he is a doctor.
[4:16] Speaker 2: Basher Alasa is a doctor, but then he was the
[4:18] Speaker 2: person who inherited and then he ruled. So we saw,
[4:22] Speaker 2: you know, during the civil war that erupted in twenty eleven,
[4:25] Speaker 2: we saw vast swords of the country falling into the
[4:28] Speaker 2: hands of the opposition groves like isis Co dis fractions.
[4:33] Speaker 2: But now with the dynasty sort of being ousted. This
[4:37] Speaker 2: episode Keita and I and Geita is a point of
[4:41] Speaker 2: his sedator with twenty over twenty years of experience, So
[4:45] Speaker 2: I'm sure Gita, with your inputs, we can actually understand
[4:48] Speaker 2: what is happening. Who are these rebel forces? You know,
[4:52] Speaker 2: how will the dynamics change because Middle East is very complex,
[4:56] Speaker 2: very complicated, so many you know, Arab powers involved, So
[5:01] Speaker 2: I'll try to understand that from you. So let's start
[5:04] Speaker 2: by addressing this one point which I think will lead
[5:08] Speaker 2: the basis of our discussion and forward. So first thing,
[5:13] Speaker 2: like I was reading about its history over the past
[5:16] Speaker 2: thirteen years, it has been engulfed into this war. But
[5:20] Speaker 2: one thing that stood out while reading about Sarah.
[5:23] Speaker 1: Is this political history.
[5:24] Speaker 2: Like since nineteen seventy one, this country has been under
[5:27] Speaker 2: the control of Hafez al Assad, which people will say
[5:31] Speaker 2: that yes, he was the dictator, and then when he
[5:33] Speaker 2: passed away in two thousand, his son took over. Fast
[5:37] Speaker 2: forward to twenty eleven, we saw the Arab Spring with
[5:40] Speaker 2: many many other countries in the Middle East. You know,
[5:46] Speaker 2: the government's the dictator is being toppled over, but Asad didn't.
[5:50] Speaker 1: He still remained in power.
[5:53] Speaker 2: So now Asad is from the Alawhite community, Okay, it
[5:58] Speaker 2: is a sect of Islam, but the majority of Sirah's
[6:02] Speaker 2: population is Sunni. Sony nominated right, So please explain how
[6:07] Speaker 2: did a Shia leader like Hafiz A Lasad and later
[6:11] Speaker 2: his son Basha managed to rule up predominantly sunny country
[6:15] Speaker 2: for fifty three years, even being saved during the Arab Spring.
[6:20] Speaker 1: How did it happen?
[6:21] Speaker 3: So it's the sixties and the seventies when you saw
[6:25] Speaker 3: a regime change from a pro Soviet to takeover by
[6:32] Speaker 3: General Rassad himself, and it was half a Zalasad who
[6:37] Speaker 3: in a kup dato took over from the Batist Party
[6:41] Speaker 3: and then later not just the Batist Party, the replacing
[6:46] Speaker 3: Salah Javid who was pro Soviet. It moved from those
[6:53] Speaker 3: governments to a sort of a military takeover because, like
[7:00] Speaker 3: you said, Alawites are a minority population in Syria, but
[7:05] Speaker 3: also very influential one and have been in important places
[7:09] Speaker 3: in the army. So the military takeover took a place
[7:13] Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy and then after which you saw this
[7:20] Speaker 3: cult figure, you know, and cult worship sort of a
[7:25] Speaker 3: thing that came about in Syria. And since then we've
[7:29] Speaker 3: seen the Assas family rule Syria. So not getting into
[7:33] Speaker 3: the details of what happened, but just saying that, you know,
[7:38] Speaker 3: a military coup and a takeover of Syria leading to
[7:44] Speaker 3: cult politics, leading to leadership that stems from one family
[7:50] Speaker 3: and becoming a dynistic political legacy, so to say, of
[7:56] Speaker 3: one family, with power being transfer from the father to
[8:01] Speaker 3: the son. It is only changed, shifted or transitioned to
[8:05] Speaker 3: generations and not more. And I don't think it's going
[8:09] Speaker 3: to go beyond because we're already seeing the end of
[8:13] Speaker 3: the Assad regime as we've known for the for the
[8:18] Speaker 3: past over fifty years now fifty four or five fifty three,
[8:22] Speaker 3: fifty three to be precise.
[8:23] Speaker 2: Yes, okay, so I think you know, I was listening
[8:27] Speaker 2: to one of the age of political experts and you
[8:29] Speaker 2: were saying that usually, like we saw in Bangladesh when
[8:34] Speaker 2: she was forced to like, you know, flee, Usually when
[8:38] Speaker 2: mostly the dictators or the leaders political figures, when they're
[8:42] Speaker 2: asked to wickate or asked to flee, they leave one
[8:46] Speaker 2: sort of message or they want to try to you know,
[8:49] Speaker 2: transfer some message to the people, addressing them through somebody's
[8:53] Speaker 2: through the military in cases not.
[8:55] Speaker 1: Always, but not always. That's what I'm saying.
[8:57] Speaker 2: But yeah, like the point here that he hasn't I mean,
[9:01] Speaker 2: we don't know, we haven't heard from him, but I
[9:04] Speaker 2: said he did not, basically saying that he is actually
[9:08] Speaker 2: living up to that very stubborn kind of image that
[9:11] Speaker 2: he has and very you know, like greedy kind of
[9:14] Speaker 2: image that he has.
[9:16] Speaker 3: That image has become. Now you know, he started off
[9:20] Speaker 3: with the lure of popularity. He was a popular figure
[9:25] Speaker 3: till he became and he started becoming all controlling because
[9:30] Speaker 3: like you said, I don't think he was cut out
[9:34] Speaker 3: to be or even imagined that he'd be taking over
[9:37] Speaker 3: from his father. So he's married very liberal. In fact,
[9:43] Speaker 3: Syria is one of the dar was one of the
[9:45] Speaker 3: most liberal countries in the Arab world. And it's unfortunate
[9:49] Speaker 3: to see Syria turn into water testern And we should
[9:53] Speaker 3: discuss that as well, because if you're protesting the assault
[9:56] Speaker 3: regime and you're going the Wahabi way, then is it
[10:02] Speaker 3: forward movement? Nobody should justify dictatorships, But at what cost?
[10:08] Speaker 3: Because if you're giving that up and you're allowing the
[10:11] Speaker 3: rebel forces who are going to take over fighting USA
[10:17] Speaker 3: but our sunny extremist radical fundamentalists, is that an acceptable option.
[10:24] Speaker 3: I say this is because you know, Anna, we were
[10:28] Speaker 3: in Syria and some of us have had experiences with
[10:33] Speaker 3: this is beginning of the Civil war, and we were
[10:36] Speaker 3: there and and you know, you'd see these young girls,
[10:41] Speaker 3: all of them wearing jeans, tank tops, t shirts and
[10:48] Speaker 3: had covered their heads, and that covering of the head
[10:52] Speaker 3: was new to Syria because they never did that before.
[10:55] Speaker 3: Hit jobs, burkhas, we're not a thing for Syria, And
[10:59] Speaker 3: if you ask them, they'd say, it is a protest
[11:03] Speaker 3: against Asad's regime. If you're protesting a dictator, but also
[11:08] Speaker 3: in that protest going the the more conservative way, then
[11:15] Speaker 3: is or should that be an option or not? And
[11:20] Speaker 3: when we were there, it's scene how in Aleppo and
[11:25] Speaker 3: so on and so forth we went and we came
[11:28] Speaker 3: back to the hotel to Damascus and everybody said are
[11:32] Speaker 3: you okay? Are you guys all right? And we looked
[11:35] Speaker 3: at them, we said, yeah, this but you know, some
[11:38] Speaker 3: of the news networks I'm not going to name any
[11:40] Speaker 3: for for fear of being sued, but some of the
[11:45] Speaker 3: western media networks were playing out that there's been bombing
[11:51] Speaker 3: and you know, Aleppos in a mess. Oh, And we said,
[11:59] Speaker 3: but that's not the case. Nothing of the sort happened.
[12:02] Speaker 3: We just went around Lepond came back. So we do
[12:07] Speaker 3: know that the propaganda war, whether if it's on this
[12:10] Speaker 3: side or that side, has been on for a while.
[12:13] Speaker 3: And we'll say, yes, you know, it is true that
[12:15] Speaker 3: a lot of people would say okay, So all of
[12:17] Speaker 3: these guys are being supported by America. No, not all
[12:19] Speaker 3: of them, certainly not HTS. Who will discuss in a
[12:23] Speaker 3: bit the what the organization is, the group and the
[12:27] Speaker 3: leader who's now going to take over as a bounty
[12:30] Speaker 3: on his head declared by the State Department of the
[12:33] Speaker 3: United States of America. But yes, the ambassador, the American
[12:37] Speaker 3: ambassador was actively engaging rebel forces against ASAD. So you
[12:44] Speaker 3: do know that there has been a Western hand And again,
[12:51] Speaker 3: nobody is justifying in ASAD regime. Of course, nobody is
[12:55] Speaker 3: justifying dictatorship, but it's it should have been a natural
[13:01] Speaker 3: people's movement, not something that everybody has a stake. And
[13:05] Speaker 3: we'll discuss Turkey how Turkey is involved in supporting the
[13:11] Speaker 3: rebel forces. US Russia has its own interests in ensuring
[13:16] Speaker 3: that ASAD stays because otherwise West Asia is completely all West, right,
[13:21] Speaker 3: so you have only these countries and Syria again is
[13:25] Speaker 3: very important to Iran because it is it borders Israel.
[13:29] Speaker 3: So all this the land routes, so to say, are
[13:35] Speaker 3: going to be a huge, huge security concern if you
[13:39] Speaker 3: have Islamists takeover for Israel also huge concern. So I'm
[13:44] Speaker 3: just saying that you know when we were there, we
[13:46] Speaker 3: saw a very different picture. A lot of us said
[13:49] Speaker 3: supporters too, and a lot of people this was doing
[13:52] Speaker 3: the civil war the beginning twenty eleven, twenty twelve, I think,
[13:56] Speaker 3: just the very beginning. Okay, so there has been involvement,
[14:02] Speaker 3: it has not been organic. It's not an organic people's
[14:06] Speaker 3: movement to top a love.
[14:08] Speaker 2: So strange that these rebel forces.
[14:10] Speaker 3: Were supported, were supported it.
[14:12] Speaker 2: That's what I was about to ask, because there are
[14:15] Speaker 2: like Sirah is not a unified United Nations, right, It's
[14:18] Speaker 2: very fragmented. They are like four to five factions, predominant
[14:23] Speaker 2: factions who work. So it's like in fifteen fourteen fifteen
[14:28] Speaker 2: days they were able to do something that even the
[14:32] Speaker 2: Arab Spring couldn't.
[14:34] Speaker 3: I think it's because of the timing, because this has
[14:37] Speaker 3: been happening for a very long time. It was just
[14:40] Speaker 3: the timing where Iran did not have the wherewithal and
[14:44] Speaker 3: means right now to support in back Syriah. There are
[14:47] Speaker 3: the reasons why they were also upset. The leadership was
[14:50] Speaker 3: upset with each other, right, but Russia also very busy
[14:55] Speaker 3: and caught up with Ukraine, could not really come and
[14:59] Speaker 3: backs area. And that really did not help. I mean, yeah,
[15:03] Speaker 3: apparently according to reports, they were withdrawing forces rather than
[15:07] Speaker 3: staying on even not enough boats, yeah base. So all
[15:13] Speaker 3: this led to the rebels gaining ground, and certainly I
[15:18] Speaker 3: think the fatigue of continuing to support an entire administration
[15:26] Speaker 3: where the Russians, I think Turkish administration, all of them,
[15:31] Speaker 3: I suppose, came to an understanding that you let him go,
[15:36] Speaker 3: let him seek asylum. And it reminds me of the
[15:40] Speaker 3: fall of Kabul because over there also when the leadership
[15:43] Speaker 3: had to flee, they fled in hours and they got asylum.
[15:49] Speaker 3: Where were they in a a friendly country? And they
[15:53] Speaker 3: did not speak or leave a message behind because there
[15:57] Speaker 3: was a lot of angst and anger against the leader
[16:00] Speaker 3: ship too. And the message that came from Hayathari al
[16:04] Speaker 3: Cham chief Mahmmadal Jalani was very clear. It's expansionist in nature.
[16:10] Speaker 3: He's already been saying that it's not Seria is not
[16:14] Speaker 3: the end game, that it's not the end, that it's
[16:16] Speaker 3: the beginning and then the rest. We should be looking
[16:19] Speaker 3: at Jerusalems and so forth. Why do you think Israel
[16:22] Speaker 3: immediately took over Golan and the I mean they are
[16:25] Speaker 3: in control of Golan, but the rest of the areas
[16:28] Speaker 3: around and destroyed all the stations where they had heavy
[16:35] Speaker 3: weapons because they don't want these weapons, nuclear installations, all
[16:40] Speaker 3: of that to fall into the hands of the HDS.
[16:44] Speaker 3: So look at the complexities and the layers of a
[16:46] Speaker 3: here so much with one Seria falling so much. Because
[16:50] Speaker 3: Asad was a problem for Israel, yes, and was a
[16:57] Speaker 3: problem for most of the sunny world. Yes, But having
[17:02] Speaker 3: HDS there does not solve their problem. It just brings
[17:07] Speaker 3: in more chaos.
[17:08] Speaker 2: So that's why I mean news reports are still pouring
[17:11] Speaker 2: in that US, Turkey. Israel are still like continuing their strikes.
[17:15] Speaker 3: Yes in Ceda, yes, because what they would want is
[17:20] Speaker 3: now Asad left, the prime Inster didn't and he said,
[17:23] Speaker 3: I want to transition government, which is oh yeah, and
[17:25] Speaker 3: I'd want to see this full transition and normalcy. But
[17:31] Speaker 3: what that government is going to look like is going
[17:33] Speaker 3: to be very important for the West, because for the West,
[17:37] Speaker 3: it's not survival of the people of Syria or any
[17:41] Speaker 3: or any it's the common man, don't really matter, you know,
[17:45] Speaker 3: for them, it's survival of Israel, protection of Israel, preservation
[17:50] Speaker 3: of Israel, and no matter which faction takes over in Syria.
[17:55] Speaker 3: If they're Islamic fundamentalists, they certainly will not be friends
[17:59] Speaker 3: with Israel. So so which is why Israel. The first
[18:03] Speaker 3: thing Israel did was move with stanks in.
[18:06] Speaker 2: Yeah, so regarding who is to govern here, and one
[18:10] Speaker 2: name that is propping up, like you're saying that HTS
[18:13] Speaker 2: leader al Jalani. He has vowed to protect minorities. And
[18:18] Speaker 2: I saw several like there's one video where these rebel
[18:22] Speaker 2: forces are going inside his prison where many women prisoners
[18:26] Speaker 2: are there and they're saying, don't be afraid, don't be afraid. Now,
[18:29] Speaker 2: it's your time to go. So he's coming with that,
[18:31] Speaker 2: you know, liberal modernist kind of.
[18:34] Speaker 3: That's the story. Yeah, he's coming with that. He's coming
[18:38] Speaker 3: with them because there have been no killings right now.
[18:40] Speaker 1: Yes, but let's not forget that he also has a.
[18:43] Speaker 3: Lot of them have left. And interestingly, there was a
[18:47] Speaker 3: there's a revolving door kind of a refugee status over
[18:50] Speaker 3: here where a lot of people who feared were fleeing,
[18:54] Speaker 3: who were absolute ASSAD supporters or in the government and
[18:57] Speaker 3: their families were taking flights out and all. And there
[19:01] Speaker 3: was this another border where people were coming in because
[19:04] Speaker 3: they were those who had fled Asad, yeah and gone
[19:07] Speaker 3: to Turkey. So the Turkey border opened up and people
[19:10] Speaker 3: were going back in. So it's a revolving door kind
[19:13] Speaker 3: of a situation where certain people It's not like other
[19:16] Speaker 3: situations where people flee, right, but nobody's going back to
[19:20] Speaker 3: nobody because the situation is in a flux over here.
[19:24] Speaker 3: Some are leaving and many are going back in. Wow,
[19:28] Speaker 3: you know the persecuted lot. Yeah, so they were going
[19:31] Speaker 3: back in. Yeah, so continue.
[19:32] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[19:33] Speaker 2: So this person, al Jolani has vowed to protect minorities
[19:37] Speaker 2: and women and has categorically stated that he has no
[19:40] Speaker 2: plans to impose strict Islamic law in the country. And
[19:44] Speaker 2: people are also likening him to MBS, you know, with
[19:48] Speaker 2: the Saudi reformist Momad bin s Alma and analysts in
[19:53] Speaker 2: the West, they call him a political artist rather than
[19:56] Speaker 2: an ideological one. But there is, like we're saying, you
[20:00] Speaker 2: are explaining that there is enough in his you know,
[20:03] Speaker 2: complex past to tell that he's politically right, so he
[20:06] Speaker 2: can change track when it fits him. He broke with
[20:11] Speaker 2: the IS then with al Qaeda, supposedly because he was
[20:15] Speaker 2: troubled by their violent tactics. And this person is, by
[20:18] Speaker 2: the way, a designated terrorist by both US and Russia.
[20:22] Speaker 2: So tell me your understanding how you are reading this
[20:27] Speaker 2: person considering he is one of the most likened and
[20:31] Speaker 2: probable persons to take the reins in his hands. So
[20:35] Speaker 2: he is political savvy for sure. And like one expert
[20:40] Speaker 2: was also saying that bashert okay, he might have directed
[20:43] Speaker 2: to you know, behead people, but he himself, with his
[20:47] Speaker 2: own hands beheaded a lot many people. I mean, that
[20:50] Speaker 2: was in his past. So is he if he carries
[20:54] Speaker 2: that with himself, posing himself to be like a reformist,
[20:57] Speaker 2: is it worrying?
[21:00] Speaker 3: So it is true Jelani has tried to reinvent himself,
[21:03] Speaker 3: rebrand himself because coming stemming from al Qaeda, you come
[21:09] Speaker 3: with you come with the baggage. And he not only
[21:14] Speaker 3: came with the baggage, he came with the acts and
[21:16] Speaker 3: the deeds too, you know, but realized very soon that
[21:21] Speaker 3: that's not the story that people in Syria might buy.
[21:27] Speaker 3: So you're rebranding yourself as a leader. Once the split
[21:31] Speaker 3: happened between from from al Qaeda and HTS came of
[21:35] Speaker 3: its own in the twenty twenties, you saw that a
[21:38] Speaker 3: lot of the a lot of de radicalization programs began
[21:43] Speaker 3: within the HTS. Jelani himself started doing a lot of
[21:48] Speaker 3: service public service within Italy, you know, where where they
[21:53] Speaker 3: were basically concentrated. But does not take away from the
[21:57] Speaker 3: fact that you still are a group that has a
[22:01] Speaker 3: certain ideology and certain parameters within which you're going to work.
[22:06] Speaker 3: So in many of his interviews he kept saying, you know,
[22:09] Speaker 3: our focus is to take down a South. The focus
[22:12] Speaker 3: is to take down a South. But he'd also you know,
[22:14] Speaker 3: let it slip sometimes that it is also going beyond
[22:17] Speaker 3: the Syria and looking at Jerusalem next, and so on
[22:20] Speaker 3: and so forth. So it is quite known that they
[22:24] Speaker 3: are going there and how they're going to treat the minorities,
[22:28] Speaker 3: what they're going to do with the minorities over here. Again,
[22:31] Speaker 3: you saw a lot of them talk about protection of minorities,
[22:36] Speaker 3: that everybody's welcome in Syria, but when it comes to
[22:40] Speaker 3: really getting down to inclusivity, we'd have to wait and
[22:44] Speaker 3: see how this how the group reacts. It's similar to
[22:49] Speaker 3: what happened in Cabul. And interestingly, you know, he praised
[22:54] Speaker 3: the Taliban and the Taliba, you know, after the fall
[22:57] Speaker 3: of Kabul, Yes, because that's the same trajectory if you see,
[23:01] Speaker 3: you know, in the way Cobble fell and in the
[23:04] Speaker 3: way Damascus fell, maybe operationally, but really not very very different.
[23:11] Speaker 3: And they also spoke about inclusivity. They also spoke about,
[23:16] Speaker 3: you know, we're going to make it different because the
[23:19] Speaker 3: leadership is thinking in a certain way. But when you
[23:21] Speaker 3: come down to people who have grown with a certain ideology,
[23:24] Speaker 3: they'd say, but you promised us there's that and the rest,
[23:28] Speaker 3: and so yes, we want of women back in the
[23:31] Speaker 3: homes and not out in schools and working so on
[23:35] Speaker 3: and so forth, and it is true that you know,
[23:39] Speaker 3: things have been difficult for women there in Syria. Similarly,
[23:43] Speaker 3: they'd want a certain few certain things, which is okay,
[23:46] Speaker 3: you're talking about inclusivity, but we do want them to
[23:49] Speaker 3: pay for what we've suffered and what we've gone through.
[23:53] Speaker 3: So is that backlash going to happen or not. We
[23:56] Speaker 3: do know that Turkey plays a very important and key
[23:59] Speaker 3: role of were because they certainly are people who can
[24:06] Speaker 3: control and who can look at how certain organizations are
[24:11] Speaker 3: going to behave. But at the end of the day,
[24:14] Speaker 3: and again is going to be about what they are
[24:17] Speaker 3: going to do and how they're going to do it? Okay,
[24:20] Speaker 3: like what happened within Italy. Now, there were protests against
[24:24] Speaker 3: Jelani in italyb and descent was not tolerated. There were
[24:29] Speaker 3: people who are imprisoned. And now there are protests and
[24:33] Speaker 3: demands to release individuals who were imprisoned in it Liab
[24:37] Speaker 3: because they were dissenting Jilani. So there are dissenters and
[24:41] Speaker 3: there's intolerance towards discenters as well. So how are you
[24:47] Speaker 3: very different from a South? And how are you going
[24:50] Speaker 3: to be very different from a South?
[24:51] Speaker 1: Right?
[24:52] Speaker 3: So, and that's just an example of a small place
[24:56] Speaker 3: he was controlling for, you know, for for some years.
[25:00] Speaker 3: And while you know they're talking about leading a new
[25:03] Speaker 3: path and finding charting a new course, he does. He
[25:09] Speaker 3: does come with all these all the baggage and the liability,
[25:13] Speaker 3: and we'll have to wait and see how that really
[25:15] Speaker 3: pans out. For Jelani doesn't seem right now like he's
[25:20] Speaker 3: somebody who's an acceptable leader. Everybody wanted Syria, everybody wanted
[25:26] Speaker 3: Asath to go, but the replacement is not something I had.
[25:31] Speaker 3: Jason is Sacon of the American Jewish Community with us
[25:35] Speaker 3: yesterday he's the chief policy officer and he an American,
[25:39] Speaker 3: and he was saying that while we want wanted asath
[25:44] Speaker 3: to go, it would be a real challenge to see
[25:47] Speaker 3: how we're going to work with HTS and control. That's
[25:50] Speaker 3: what so nobody wants this group also because then you
[25:57] Speaker 3: lose control because Turkey finds itself and a very cushy position,
[26:02] Speaker 3: not something that Israel US would want at this juncture,
[26:08] Speaker 3: even if it's not Iran.
[26:10] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[26:11] Speaker 2: Right, But one thing that is still complicated is this
[26:15] Speaker 2: thing that they are saying that we need like a
[26:19] Speaker 2: very peaceful, you know, transition to power. But how are
[26:22] Speaker 2: these factions, these four factions, four main factions, like one
[26:27] Speaker 2: is Turkish Bagsuny rebels in the northwest, Kirts in the
[26:31] Speaker 2: north and east, Jordanian back rebels in the south, and
[26:34] Speaker 2: the remaining loyalists from Asa Salawhites sect.
[26:38] Speaker 1: How are they? I mean, what is the relevance of them?
[26:41] Speaker 3: Yes, to these factions, anna are important. Yeah, but at
[26:45] Speaker 3: this point in time, you have to understand that it's
[26:47] Speaker 3: HTS that is in control.
[26:49] Speaker 1: Okay, who what.
[26:51] Speaker 3: They get out of it? Are they going to align
[26:53] Speaker 3: themselves or not? Is a later thing. Right now? It
[26:57] Speaker 3: is about what Chilani wants and is going to do
[27:01] Speaker 3: because he's sitting in Damascus. You want to topple him,
[27:05] Speaker 3: quite him. He's coming with a moderate agenda. I'm only
[27:10] Speaker 3: questioning the fact that whether they're going to be moderate
[27:12] Speaker 3: enough or not exactly does not mean that he's not
[27:15] Speaker 3: coming with a moderate agenda. He's coming with a moderate agenda.
[27:18] Speaker 3: So let's see whether that's going to play out all
[27:20] Speaker 3: right for their for for Syria or not. Because Syrians
[27:25] Speaker 3: are known and Syrian women are known to be very
[27:31] Speaker 3: very liberal, you know, thinking in the ways in their
[27:37] Speaker 3: in their lifestyle, their ways, the thinking all of that.
[27:41] Speaker 3: Is that going to be curtailed because we're looking at
[27:44] Speaker 3: Sunni you know, Islamists now taking control of Syria, and
[27:49] Speaker 3: will that be acceptable? You know? And this is not
[27:52] Speaker 3: fall of Kabul now, I'm talking about the time when
[27:55] Speaker 3: the first time Taliban took over, and before that, Afghanistan
[27:59] Speaker 3: was an absolutely liberal nation for that matter, even Iran.
[28:05] Speaker 3: Right when that kind of a shift and change happens,
[28:09] Speaker 3: how will a society accept it? How will a society
[28:12] Speaker 3: be okay with it? So how will Syria handle although
[28:16] Speaker 3: they are not minority, their majority of the population, but
[28:18] Speaker 3: they were okay, right under a minority Alawhite regime that
[28:23] Speaker 3: allowed space to women. That might change too in Syria,
[28:28] Speaker 3: and that should be a concern. And I when I
[28:31] Speaker 3: say that, you know, West played a very important role
[28:33] Speaker 3: in propping up supporting what across the border were called
[28:39] Speaker 3: would have been called terrorists, but on this side of
[28:41] Speaker 3: the border called freedom fighters and rebels. It's very interesting
[28:45] Speaker 3: because these are the same people you will call Islamic
[28:47] Speaker 3: state terrorists al Qaeda. They were part of al Qaeda, right.
[28:52] Speaker 3: But the US certainly did not support the HTS, like
[28:56] Speaker 3: I said, there was a bounty on his head. They
[29:00] Speaker 3: did support the rebel forces.
[29:02] Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the the you know, follow up question
[29:07] Speaker 2: to you, Guita. That the fact that he if he
[29:10] Speaker 2: does become the president, as being said, you know speaker, Yeah,
[29:16] Speaker 2: uh so, his status as a terrorist in the West
[29:20] Speaker 2: and Russia will be a hindrance. Uh So, which country
[29:25] Speaker 2: the US, Russia or Israel do you think will be
[29:29] Speaker 2: the most amenable to working with this.
[29:32] Speaker 3: You know, Turkey?
[29:34] Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And how do you.
[29:37] Speaker 3: Think nobody's gonna work with him right now? Yeah? They will.
[29:40] Speaker 3: They will have to start engaging the English the Taliban.
[29:44] Speaker 3: Most of them were on the wanted list, did they not.
[29:48] Speaker 3: It's geopolitics, survival, survival of Israel very very important. Getting
[29:54] Speaker 3: Syria out of the hands of Iran very important. So
[29:58] Speaker 3: now not having a Shia leadership or an Allahwaite leadership
[30:02] Speaker 3: and having a Sunni leadership, the Suni Shia fight between
[30:05] Speaker 3: Iran and the Sunni world continues. Having a Sunni leadership
[30:11] Speaker 3: is going to change dynamics across the region. And for Iran,
[30:16] Speaker 3: the biggest problem is distance. They're so far away that
[30:19] Speaker 3: for them, and we discussed this last time around, for them,
[30:22] Speaker 3: they need Lebanon in Syria because those are the land
[30:26] Speaker 3: borders you know, connected our adjacent to Israel, and they
[30:31] Speaker 3: need them to really be able to attack Israel. With
[30:35] Speaker 3: Syria gone and the Russian's gone.
[30:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, then why is it that like to engage these guys, Yeah,
[30:43] Speaker 2: of course, But I'm thinking that why is it that
[30:47] Speaker 2: when we saw the you know, during the Civil War,
[30:51] Speaker 2: we saw Russia and Iran helping the regime, the ASA
[30:54] Speaker 2: regime militarily, you know, economically, diplomatically, strategically, everything. But what
[31:00] Speaker 2: happened this time? Why are people seeing experts saying that
[31:04] Speaker 2: Russia and Iran abandoned and threw city under the bus.
[31:09] Speaker 2: No is it because of the two wars?
[31:11] Speaker 3: I mean they are they were not they were, They
[31:13] Speaker 3: didn't abandoned, They were very preoccupied. One is that Iran
[31:19] Speaker 3: was in many ways not crippled, but curtailed by Israel
[31:25] Speaker 3: in the recent past. Look at the kind of attacks
[31:27] Speaker 3: that Iran has had to face after the Hasbel attack
[31:31] Speaker 3: and is Smelhane after the October seventh attack. You know
[31:34] Speaker 3: they've got after israelis which is why Nataniao claimed victory,
[31:38] Speaker 3: saying that you know it was because of us and
[31:41] Speaker 3: because of our attacks against Hezbollah that the rebel forces
[31:47] Speaker 3: could go in and dig down Asath because Iran was
[31:51] Speaker 3: so busy on this side trying to ensure that Hebela
[31:54] Speaker 3: is not completely down and out, because that's one of
[31:57] Speaker 3: the biggest powers for Iran in fighting the war against Israel.
[32:02] Speaker 3: For them to ensure preservation of his Belave was very,
[32:05] Speaker 3: very important. So they were diverted, not distracted, but diverted,
[32:14] Speaker 3: stretched and did not have the means to really continue
[32:20] Speaker 3: fighting or supporting Syria at this point in time. Russia,
[32:25] Speaker 3: on the other hand, quite stretched with the escalation between
[32:30] Speaker 3: Russia and Ukraine. Again, the pull out, apparently, according to
[32:35] Speaker 3: some sources and people have been talking to, started happening
[32:38] Speaker 3: way before the rebels had started going in. And then
[32:42] Speaker 3: there was an attack on the port itself, right, so
[32:46] Speaker 3: that was an Israeli attack. So you knew that there
[32:49] Speaker 3: was direct confrontation happening, but the means and wherewithal to
[32:53] Speaker 3: contain and to continue containing with it away. But then again,
[33:00] Speaker 3: and you know, whatever happened, and however, Israel now claims
[33:03] Speaker 3: Victorian says that you know, we we were the reasons why,
[33:07] Speaker 3: reason why Asad fell. They will now have to deal
[33:11] Speaker 3: with HTS and we'll have to see how that really
[33:15] Speaker 3: looks for them because the Israel Hamas war in Turkey's
[33:20] Speaker 3: position as also the Arab world's position is very different. Yes,
[33:26] Speaker 3: so maybe they did not be focused on Iran taking
[33:30] Speaker 3: credit to support and protect Palestinians, but even if it
[33:37] Speaker 3: comes from Syria and the other parts, it would be
[33:41] Speaker 3: an acceptable thing for the Arab world, which is why
[33:45] Speaker 3: Israel went in. They said, before these guys get a
[33:48] Speaker 3: hold and can even say government, let's just do away
[33:53] Speaker 3: with any of the weapons that they can get a
[33:56] Speaker 3: hold of, because it will be used against Israel.
[33:59] Speaker 2: Okay, so now if you'll know, zoom out a bit,
[34:03] Speaker 2: look at the Middle East. See a weekened Iran, stronger
[34:08] Speaker 2: Israel backed by the US.
[34:11] Speaker 3: I think stronger would be more stronger when Trump comes in.
[34:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, he has said that let the Citians deal with it,
[34:19] Speaker 2: although I'm sure when he comes to par he'll have.
[34:21] Speaker 3: A no, no, no. But he's also said that Israeli's
[34:24] Speaker 3: priority Israeli's priority.
[34:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so how do you see them? Just to
[34:28] Speaker 1: zoom out a bit, and.
[34:30] Speaker 3: Let's see how it is going to look in terms
[34:32] Speaker 3: of West Asia because Siriah's fallen, it's going to be
[34:35] Speaker 3: very very chaotic from here on. If we're looking at
[34:40] Speaker 3: Israel hamas sword that will continue unabated. Netanya is going
[34:43] Speaker 3: to go ahead doing what he has to, but he's
[34:46] Speaker 3: also very confident that he can wait. Unike you know
[34:49] Speaker 3: Ukraine Russia, where Zelenski doesn't think he can wait because
[34:53] Speaker 3: there will certainly be a pullout by Trump. But over here,
[34:57] Speaker 3: Trump is not going to pull out. He certainly would
[34:59] Speaker 3: not want the war to continue, and he'll try to
[35:02] Speaker 3: bring them to the negotiating table and he'd warn the
[35:05] Speaker 3: hostages released but should they not do that. He's okay,
[35:11] Speaker 3: gazare being wiped clean, and which is great for Natania.
[35:15] Speaker 3: It's great news that you know, America is not going
[35:17] Speaker 3: to object, and America will always then be the obstacle
[35:21] Speaker 3: at the United Nations Security Council for the World taking
[35:24] Speaker 3: cognizance of anything that you know, Israel does. So that
[35:30] Speaker 3: will become a very very gory, dark picture for Palestinians.
[35:35] Speaker 3: But in return, what happens is that now with Syria falling,
[35:38] Speaker 3: we'll have to see what Turkey's position and the Sunney
[35:42] Speaker 3: Administration's position in Syria is going to be vs. V. Israel.
[35:47] Speaker 3: They might have taken out some of the installations, but
[35:49] Speaker 3: remember these guys went and armed. It's not like they
[35:52] Speaker 3: don't have arms. It's not like they don't have the wherewithal,
[35:55] Speaker 3: So they'll have they have the means. How they're going
[35:58] Speaker 3: to use it is something we'll have to wait and see.
[36:01] Speaker 3: Then we have Lebanon. Lebanon again is a country with
[36:05] Speaker 3: so many factions, so many diverse communities. Is it dissipating?
[36:13] Speaker 3: Is there support for Hazbolah? If not, what happens all
[36:16] Speaker 3: this will certainly lead to a more weakened Iran Visavi Israel.
[36:23] Speaker 3: But is Iran going to allow the changes to impact
[36:31] Speaker 3: it in a way that it will be debilitating something
[36:35] Speaker 3: We'll have to Waitncy because here it's not Russia, it's
[36:39] Speaker 3: China that's going to become a very important player. Remember
[36:42] Speaker 3: the Saudi Iran diplomatic conversations were managed by broker by China,
[36:49] Speaker 3: and those conversations have only gotten stronger with Israel's offensive
[36:54] Speaker 3: in Gaza because Iran has stood by a Sunni Listinian peoples,
[37:03] Speaker 3: whereas a Sunni leadership, a leader of the Sunni world,
[37:09] Speaker 3: which is Soaudi Arabia did not or spoke vocally about it,
[37:14] Speaker 3: quite vociferously so, but didn't act upon it because their
[37:19] Speaker 3: allies with the United States of America. Hence and therefore,
[37:24] Speaker 3: but with Saudi Arabia and Iran having conversations, particularly about
[37:29] Speaker 3: this situation, China becomes important. And in that then look
[37:33] Speaker 3: at Russia, China becoming important as a grouping China will
[37:39] Speaker 3: play an important role. Russia might not be that important
[37:45] Speaker 3: right now, but again has been given asylum by Putin.
[37:50] Speaker 3: So we're looking at a Russia, Russia, China and India
[37:54] Speaker 3: has played a very neutral role over here because we've
[37:58] Speaker 3: always engaged Syria. The embassy is functional. Yes, we've always
[38:02] Speaker 3: engaged Syria. We were never for the toppling of any
[38:08] Speaker 3: administration if it's not organic, we already still let the
[38:12] Speaker 3: people decide.
[38:13] Speaker 2: But an al Jilani leadership and sayyah, would that be
[38:18] Speaker 2: detrimental for us?
[38:19] Speaker 1: Which would be cautious or.
[38:21] Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think India is in
[38:24] Speaker 3: a place where any faction in Syria would take issue
[38:31] Speaker 3: with India's position. I think India will try to engage
[38:36] Speaker 3: whoever is in Amath it's in Damascus, as we did
[38:39] Speaker 3: with the Taliban, and we oppose the Taliban for the
[38:42] Speaker 3: longest ride, but we are engaging the Taliban. Will the
[38:48] Speaker 3: administration be recognized now, we'll have to wait and see,
[38:51] Speaker 3: because the same thing happened with the Taliban. They've taken over,
[38:55] Speaker 3: their policies don aligne with international norms and rules, and
[38:59] Speaker 3: therefore they've not been recognized as a government by the
[39:03] Speaker 3: world community. So here HTS will have to then see
[39:07] Speaker 3: a smooth transition of government, and if they proved to
[39:11] Speaker 3: be inclusive, you know, and not create more chaos, then
[39:15] Speaker 3: maybe they'll be recognized. If not because they've already issued
[39:19] Speaker 3: their flags on and so.
[39:20] Speaker 1: Yes, yes they have. Yeah.
[39:22] Speaker 2: Well, one thing, if he does actually stay true to
[39:24] Speaker 2: his promise, you know, and become this secular president and
[39:29] Speaker 2: not obsessed with Islamism, I think he would have single handedly,
[39:33] Speaker 2: you know, done more to eliminate the terrorists than the
[39:37] Speaker 2: US or Russia managed to do. So that would actually
[39:40] Speaker 2: be like a story to tell. But just lastly, I
[39:44] Speaker 2: think although we have mentioned, we have discussed the power
[39:48] Speaker 2: dynamics in the Middle East, but what happens to the
[39:53] Speaker 2: ass dynasty? Considering we have enough instances in the past,
[39:57] Speaker 2: like for example, in Libya we saw you know, Gaddafi's
[40:01] Speaker 2: forty year rule ending violently in twenty eleven only with
[40:05] Speaker 2: the Arab spring. Then Yemen also saw this kind of
[40:08] Speaker 2: upheaval right when Salih was ousted in twenty twelve. Egypt's
[40:14] Speaker 2: Mobarak host the Mobara he was forced to resign in
[40:17] Speaker 2: twenty eleven. But here in Syria, do you think because
[40:23] Speaker 2: after their oust in these respective countries, it was followed
[40:27] Speaker 2: by a kind of instability with all these countries, you know,
[40:31] Speaker 2: not fully able to grapple with the changes, with these
[40:34] Speaker 2: huge changes of such magnitude, you think Syria has this
[40:39] Speaker 2: potential of being plunged into another in fighting. So one
[40:42] Speaker 2: thing is this, And secondly about the user Dynasterio thing,
[40:46] Speaker 2: it's long gone now after fifty three.
[40:49] Speaker 3: Years, I think it has gone. I don't think Syria
[40:52] Speaker 3: would want see that's the whole problem. We don't know
[40:55] Speaker 3: right now whether if there's going to be cult leadership,
[40:59] Speaker 3: a continuance of cult leadership with Jilani becoming the new
[41:02] Speaker 3: cult figure. But Asad's family certainly is not going to
[41:07] Speaker 3: make a comeback. Okay they are. They're a very educated lot.
[41:12] Speaker 2: Yes, his wife is an investment banker, right, yes, yeah,
[41:17] Speaker 2: and that's why it was he was coming reformist even.
[41:20] Speaker 3: Yeah, even his children. So I don't think they're going
[41:24] Speaker 3: to come back. How they're going to sustain themselves because
[41:28] Speaker 3: they'll have to stay in Russia. There will be no
[41:31] Speaker 3: other option. It's not like you know, they're countries, too
[41:35] Speaker 3: many countries that will accept Asad and where he'll be safe.
[41:39] Speaker 3: So what will life be for his family something we'll
[41:43] Speaker 3: have to wait and see and his children, But in
[41:46] Speaker 3: terms of a future for their sub family in Syria,
[41:50] Speaker 3: it's I think over yeah.
[41:52] Speaker 2: There is there is no looking back, and if we
[41:56] Speaker 2: don't have like a leadership in Syria soon, there's also
[42:00] Speaker 2: a possibility of Syria being you know, plunging into another
[42:04] Speaker 2: in fighting another civil civil war.
[42:06] Speaker 1: You think that's a possibility.
[42:07] Speaker 3: Of course, of course it's a possibility, but I don't think, uh,
[42:12] Speaker 3: it's a likelihood.
[42:14] Speaker 1: Okay, I think that will be.
[42:15] Speaker 3: I think yeah, I think I think it's just about
[42:19] Speaker 3: what kind of leadership? Right, Yeah, we should be more
[42:22] Speaker 3: concerned about that, what's the kind of leadership that's going
[42:25] Speaker 3: to take control of Syria, not whether if they are
[42:28] Speaker 3: going to have a leadership or not, which is what
[42:31] Speaker 3: most of the former leaders are now saying. It's not
[42:35] Speaker 3: whether there will be there certainly will be, will be,
[42:38] Speaker 3: but what is the composition going to look like of
[42:41] Speaker 3: that government? That's a SKay. But just before we go,
[42:48] Speaker 3: every every conflict, every downfall of a dictator or a regime,
[42:57] Speaker 3: so to say, comes with the story. And you know,
[43:01] Speaker 3: here there's a story of this teenager who actually they
[43:04] Speaker 3: say brought us south down. Now, how did it happen?
[43:07] Speaker 3: During the Arab Spring? There was this teenager, a fourteen
[43:12] Speaker 3: year old, who infused that there's a civil war within Syria.
[43:18] Speaker 3: With the graffiti. Wow, he took a spray can at
[43:22] Speaker 3: a time when nobody was questioning us South and Syria,
[43:26] Speaker 3: when everything else, everywhere else was boiling over sas a
[43:31] Speaker 3: fourteen year old went ahead and sprayed a graffiti and
[43:37] Speaker 3: that led to many people then questioning, wow, their Saud government.
[43:43] Speaker 3: And the message was also telling you know, it said
[43:46] Speaker 3: I'll read it because it's an Arabic. It says ejak
[43:51] Speaker 3: aldur your doctor, which means it's your turn doctor. Oh wow,
[43:56] Speaker 3: which means it's next yea. And that's how it all started,
[44:01] Speaker 3: apparently amazing. You know, the whole Arab spring started with
[44:07] Speaker 3: Tunisia street vendor being beaten, and then you know, it
[44:13] Speaker 3: conflated and became a big issue, and then protests began
[44:16] Speaker 3: against the dictatorship and the leadership there. And we've seen
[44:21] Speaker 3: the same thing through and through and one small incidance
[44:24] Speaker 3: sparks that fire. And it was this fourteen year old
[44:28] Speaker 3: who sparked that it just change in Syria.
[44:32] Speaker 2: Like it said, it just it just takes like one
[44:34] Speaker 2: small step, but revolution to happen.
[44:37] Speaker 1: So amazing.
[44:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like this episode, we have talked about
[44:43] Speaker 2: how things can look like but at least the reality
[44:47] Speaker 2: is like you know, I was watching this documentary where
[44:50] Speaker 2: these foreign journalists they were entering and they it was
[44:53] Speaker 2: around the Civil War kind of you know era, and
[44:57] Speaker 2: they were saying that when they entered in to say,
[45:00] Speaker 2: yea from Lebanon, entire like all the roads you know, highways,
[45:06] Speaker 2: even the gullies and everything, they are like flooded with
[45:09] Speaker 2: these oldings of Buther al Assad.
[45:12] Speaker 1: But right now when.
[45:13] Speaker 3: You google, it's all being taken down.
[45:15] Speaker 2: It's all been taken on in the one image I
[45:17] Speaker 2: think that stays is like the one olding of his
[45:21] Speaker 2: with his you know, big face lying on the ground
[45:25] Speaker 2: and a man stomping on it.
[45:27] Speaker 1: So that's the reality.
[45:28] Speaker 3: It doesn't take much. It doesn't, which is why I
[45:31] Speaker 3: suppose it for all the for all the rulers, even
[45:36] Speaker 3: if you are a ruler, and if it's every country
[45:39] Speaker 3: has a different kind of governance and government. Not every
[45:44] Speaker 3: country is a democratic setup, and we know many which
[45:47] Speaker 3: aren't still aren't, right, but you have to know how
[45:52] Speaker 3: to rule even if your system of governance is not
[45:56] Speaker 3: a democratic one, otherwise it will own you take that
[46:01] Speaker 3: one light to fire up, right, you know, an entire revolution, Yeah.
[46:08] Speaker 1: Especially coming from a teenager. It speaks a lot like.
[46:11] Speaker 3: You know, most of these revolutions have come from teenagers, youngsters,
[46:14] Speaker 3: twenty year olds, nineteen year olds.
[46:17] Speaker 1: True.
[46:17] Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think on that note, we will put
[46:22] Speaker 2: an end to this episode.
[46:23] Speaker 1: So thank you so much. This is something like this year.
[46:26] Speaker 2: As we're approaching, you know, the end of this year,
[46:29] Speaker 2: I think when we look back at this year, twite
[46:32] Speaker 2: ready for when I remember in the in the month
[46:35] Speaker 2: of January, we were planning.
[46:36] Speaker 1: The you know, for future episodes for this year.
[46:38] Speaker 2: We were like, yeah, there will be a lot forty elections,
[46:41] Speaker 2: try four year of.
[46:42] Speaker 1: Elections, but who knew.
[46:43] Speaker 2: Absolutely elections have been sort of overpowered with these revolutionary
[46:50] Speaker 2: you know changes.
[46:51] Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Gita.
[46:53] Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you to all our listeners
[46:56] Speaker 3: and us also always to find time to listen to us,
[47:01] Speaker 3: to watch us. And your comments are important and are precious,
[47:05] Speaker 3: so please keep them coming. We'll keep doing better and
[47:10] Speaker 3: improving ourselves.
[47:11] Speaker 2: Please note down the number which is eighty five double
[47:14] Speaker 2: eight nine, double six, double nine six, and there's an
[47:17] Speaker 2: email iety which is spots at the rate indday dot com.
[47:21] Speaker 1: Thank you so much and leaving your comments on.
[47:22] Speaker 2: The YouTube section as well, follow, subscribe, and listen to
[47:25] Speaker 2: every other podcast that we do.
[47:27] Speaker 1: Thank you.

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