# Sudan: Why 'Africa's Arms Dump' Became Casualty Of America's Global Ambitions | Geeta's World Ep 41

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 25 Apr 2023, 1 h 06 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53642994/25_apr_23_geetas_world_25_april_ep_41_128.mp3

The Sudanese army and the powerful paramilitary group RSF are engaged in violent clashes, stemming from tensions over the proposed integration of the RSF into the military, and with both sides vying for control in the country. Both General Burhan and General Dagalo have claimed that they support the idea of returning to civilian rule. But why has the conflict and the infighting between the two military leaders erupted now? Is it well timed? The British tactic of divide and rule in Sudan during the 19th century is evident, but can they be solely held responsible for the country's current dire situation?

## Transcript

[0:00] This Is Today podcasts. The Sudanese army and the powerful paramilitary group RSF are
[0:09] engaged in violent clashes stemming from tensions over the proposed integration of the RSF into
[0:15] the military and with both sides vying for control in the country. Both General
[0:20] Burhan and General Dagallo have claimed that they support the idea of returning to civilian
[0:26] rule. But why has the conflict and the in fighting between the two military
[0:31] leaders erupted now? Is it well timed? It happened at a time when
[0:36] Sudan was due for elections. When the country is due for elections is when
[0:40] they're thinking who should the power lie with? And the British tactic of divide
[0:46] and rule in Sudan during the nineteenth century is evident. But can they be
[0:50] solely held responsible for the country's current dire situation. I'm not going to blame
[0:56] them, but yes, the colonial past of seeing p by dividing is not
[1:02] bringing peace. Hello, I'm Anna Pradeshoni with India to Day TV's Foreign affairs
[1:08] editor Getha Mohun, Where with Githa's astute and incisive crasp of world affairs,
[1:14] we delve into all that is urgent and pressing in world politics and comprehend how
[1:19] these developments in other countries could shape India's global ambitions of being a Vishwa Guru.
[1:26] Let's unravel Githa's world. The already fragile political situation in Sudan has taken
[1:34] a dramatic turn for the worse in the past few days, as violent clashes
[1:38] have erupted between the army and the Arressur, which is Rapid Support Forces,
[1:44] a powerful paramilitary group that played a key role in the twenty twenty one coup
[1:49] that overthrew the previous civilian government in Sudan. Violence has now entered its second
[1:53] week and people are continuing to Fleekhartum, which is Sudan's capital. The conflict
[2:00] arose from tensions over the proposed integration of the ARSF into the military, with
[2:05] both sides vying for control and the position of commander in chief during the integration
[2:10] process. What started as a disagreement over the country's security sector reform has now
[2:16] turned into a full blown power struggle, with potentially dire consequences for Sudan's stability
[2:23] and future. The situation is particularly concerning in the capital Khartum, where most
[2:30] of the fighting is taking place, but clashes have been reported across the country,
[2:35] resulting in a devastating tool of at least four twenty seven fatalities and more
[2:39] than thirty seven hundred wounded according to UN agencies. As far as the latest
[2:45] numbers show, this raises serious questions about the country's leadership, security and prospects
[2:51] for peace and calls for urgent action from the international community to prevent further bloodshed
[2:58] and bring the conflict to an end. And as far as the latest update
[3:00] goes, both the parties have agreed for a seventy two RCS fire a temporary
[3:07] piece which is broken by the US and all this will be a matter of
[3:10] discussion in this episode of Guta's World. By understanding the country through its complicated
[3:15] and violent prone history, and of course to help with this, Geta is
[3:19] joining me Hi. How are you get I'm feeling better now after COVID And
[3:25] just for our listeners, whether in Delhi or anywhere, COVID is indeed returning.
[3:31] So Maska, maintain distance, sanitize, do all the hygienic things that
[3:38] we used to do, a lot of things, you know, one misses.
[3:43] I think one of the it's sad to say about one of the most
[3:46] important things that I miss from the logdown is not having any noise pollutione I'm
[3:54] tired of people honking. I'm like, I don't know why, so resonate
[4:00] with you right now because like I also had to isolate myself in the bast
[4:05] week that's gone by because my flatmates she tested positive. So I had to
[4:11] isolate myself and I was working from home. But you didn't get COVID.
[4:14] No, I didn't not get good. But I had a few symptoms,
[4:16] but I tested negative of con. I think you're susceptible to cold anyway,
[4:19] that's why. Actually, yes, But now that you say noise pollutions,
[4:25] so in front of my house, there's a full I don't know, some
[4:28] function going on and they have put up pandas and loudspeakers. Are like,
[4:32] and what's with not following rules that you cannot have a noise beyond a certain
[4:40] decibel after ten pm? Yes? Why can't people respect others spaces, others
[4:46] homes? There might be elderly, there might be children, there might be
[4:49] babies sleeping in the afternoon. Yes, you have people honking away and going,
[4:55] you have people doing all sorts of I don't know what I mean.
[5:00] Most of them are religiously inclined, so if I say anything, there will
[5:03] be an entire protest that, oh, she's anti I'm not anti religious,
[5:09] but religion only should teach you respect, to respect others their lives. I'm
[5:14] tired of the honking driving to office after these many days. It was so
[5:18] so painful. Yeah, and thankfully you live in one of those places in
[5:24] Delhi, which is like, yeah, but there is no place in Delhi
[5:28] that's not noisy at least place Yeah exactly. I mean they in French upon
[5:32] the residential areas, and I don't know what kind of happiness and pleasure they
[5:39] get. I wish. I mean, there's a lot to discuss, but
[5:43] I just thought, you know, our listeners should really I know that COVID
[5:45] is back, just be careful and didn't go anywhere even if it was even
[5:49] if it's mild, because this time the bout was milder. But having COVID
[5:55] over and over again, we'll take a toll on Bue's body. So you
[5:58] know, after this, I'm going to wait a month or two and then
[6:01] get an entire check up, especially of my heart done, which is also
[6:04] something that one should do. Yeah, yeah, any introspect, you have
[6:10] a lot to discuss, I guess actually, and by the way, I
[6:13] didn't realize that this is the forty first episode. Like forty episode we have
[6:16] done so far, which is almost close to a year, imagine, Yeah,
[6:19] fifty two. I think that you're done. Yes, and good topics.
[6:27] Actually, you know, when I go back, there's a lot of
[6:29] reference point, you know, because you're moving forward, and there's so much
[6:32] that you've spoken, you have written about, you have you know, recorded
[6:38] and your podcast, and it's a good reference point. Sometimes you forget what
[6:43] happened, but you know that you've you've spoken about it, you've researched a
[6:46] lot. So it's a good place to go back to to our listeners.
[6:50] Mostly we have a lot of backgrounders on our subjects. Please do come look
[6:55] at the issue and maybe understand the subject as well. Yes, all our
[7:00] good archives you can ye. Yes. So on that note, I think
[7:05] we'll start with a discussion that we're here for, which is Sudan and the
[7:11] current situation which is unfolding in Soudan is undoubtedly, you know the product of
[7:15] a long and violent history which we will explore further in our discussion, but
[7:20] before delving into the complexities of this conflict, I think it's also worth considering
[7:26] why we hear so little about Sudan in mainstream news media unless you know,
[7:31] a major event occurs like this. Is there a valid reason for this lack
[7:35] of coverage, perhaps which is driven by you know, geopolitical factors. And
[7:41] why I asked this is because I reckon that, you know, it's an
[7:44] important question to consider as understanding the media's rule in you know, shaping up
[7:48] perceptions of events is crucial for comprehending the nuances of this and of course other
[7:55] major global conflicts as well. But Sudan is a country I and most people
[8:01] I know, only associate with violent conflicts in civil wars, and that is
[8:05] the case with many countries in Africa if you've known their names at all.
[8:09] So does that also say something about how low these African countries figure on India's
[8:16] geopolitical matrix? Absolutely very important question, Anna, and I tell you why
[8:22] because in the so we have been talking a lot about the global South,
[8:26] which means countries that are not developed countries, countries whose priorities up until now
[8:35] we're not global priorities and if you are not part of the global priority ecosystem,
[8:43] then you are on the fence. You left out, and the global
[8:48] South has felt that for a very long time. Africa as a continent itself
[8:54] has been a continent that has been mired in conflicts. But you're talking about
[9:01] Sudan today, and you're talking about Sudan because the fight normally what happens,
[9:05] the fight is normally outside of the capital city. But the conflict is violent
[9:11] and very severe underreported. Most of them don't know. Apart from a few
[9:18] international channels and a few international papers or papers which have a lot of focus
[9:24] on international news, you don't hear about these conflicts like the Russia Ukraine wars.
[9:31] That's something that has been discussed over and over again, people trying to
[9:35] find solution, which is fair. Yeah, But in the Human Rights Watch,
[9:41] I'm saying Human Rights Watch because it's the World twenty twenty three report.
[9:46] There are fifteen armed conflicts right now in Africa. It has Congo, Ethiopia,
[9:54] Eritrea, Mozambique, you have Mali, Burkina Faso, and then you
[10:01] have Sudan. So you have so many places where there is massive conflict that's
[10:05] going on, but not to the extent that you're seeing in Sudan. Now,
[10:11] why why has Sudan become big? It is because the fight and the
[10:16] armed conflict is happening in Khartum exactly in the capital city. And also and
[10:22] it is a fight for power, which is I mean, we've seen a
[10:26] lot of these conflicts, but the kind and the manner in which after ousting
[10:31] a dictator, when people thought finally maybe there will be peace, these military
[10:37] you know, rulers or leaders now are fighting for who should rule Sudan.
[10:43] And it's because it's a fight at the top and not armed conflict between sectarian
[10:52] or sectarian strife between a particular group and the government that they are fighting to
[10:56] be the government. Is the reason why seeing a level of violence that's unimaginable.
[11:05] The videos that are coming are heartbreakings. There's this young boy who put
[11:11] out a video saying that he's lost all his friends. And he was just
[11:15] an maybe a thirteen fourteen year old boy weeping making this video saying that I've
[11:20] lost all my friends. They have killed everybody. He was talking about his
[11:26] you know, his age group, that all the kids from his neighborhood and
[11:30] he's in this room. He says, I don't know what to do,
[11:31] A way to go. Oh my god, that's the situation. And in
[11:35] such a situation when it's very grim, in such a situation where these two
[11:41] military rulers or leaders are fighting, it is all happening in Khartoum. Everybody
[11:48] now is what's stranded exactly, I mean, which is why we're reporting.
[11:52] Yes, when when when does the world start looking at a story very closely?
[11:58] They start looking country when they are effective. First, the Indians are
[12:03] standard there, so that's the coverage in India. But it didn't happen for
[12:07] a very long time. The fight had begun, so there has been a
[12:11] little bit of an I don't know whether if you'd say that they were not
[12:16] in tandem. Maybe they were monitoring the situation, but the things had gotten
[12:20] out of hand quite some time ago. Getting those Indians out would have been
[12:26] difficult, Getting foreign nationals out would have been difficult. So when does it
[12:31] When do these conflicts really become my problem? It only becomes my problem and
[12:35] my people are impacted exactly, So otherwise you're just otherwise, there are international
[12:41] stakeholders are doing their work, and in this we require those international stakeholders and
[12:46] those countries that are invested in Sudan because our penetration in terms of forces is
[12:54] very less, so we don't have people who can actually go to homes and
[12:56] pick Indians out, load them and move. There's firefight everywhere, So how
[13:03] is it happening? We are looking at doing it through our allies friends,
[13:09] Saudi Arabia, France, UK, US, the United Nations, but even
[13:15] for them, even to get their own people out has been a very difficult
[13:20] ask. It's a very difficult task because entering Khartoum in itself has become a
[13:28] challenge. So that's where that's where the stands. But why are we reporting
[13:33] it now is because Indians are stranded. When they're strandard anywhere and there's an
[13:37] operation happening, we cover it. But if you ask about international cover or
[13:41] coverage per se, this is an area that has always seen the glaring neglect
[13:50] of the world when it comes to their problems. And it's not just about
[13:54] conflict. Because of the conflicts, the poverty, the deprivation, climate change
[14:00] affecting them more than any other country, but nobody really taking those steps to
[14:03] make an effect that change in this part of the world, and that certainly
[14:09] will remain a problem Anna unless and until we start treating the global South and
[14:13] these countries as equals, with equal stake in not just global peace, but
[14:20] in climate change, in poverty, eradication, in alleviation of you know,
[14:26] the depressed communities. All that can only happen if you start treating them like
[14:31] one, as equals. Until then, we'll only see under reporting unless you
[14:37] are affected. We are affected, rightly said, I mean, it's so
[14:41] I can so much, you know, go into this introspection mode that as
[14:46] I had to research so much to find about, you know, what's happening,
[14:48] because until now, I think I've just read about South Suda, but
[14:52] I didn't know much about how functions, how many times they have been military
[14:58] cools, how many times the civilian governments have been toppled by the military forces
[15:03] there. So it's very difficult. But yes, like you said, I
[15:07] think a lot of goes for the media coverage and I'm sure. And you
[15:11] know what's the saddest part about Africa. It's so resource rich exactly, oil
[15:16] and minerals, minerals, yes, rare earth metals. It's so resource rich,
[15:22] and all they're looking at these countries for is this and not for anything
[15:28] else that they're human capital, educating them, making them, you know,
[15:33] in terms of development, their index is very very low. True, yes,
[15:39] And you said about the artist step and the military fighting a little bit
[15:46] on that. I think the you know, the tensions have been raised over
[15:50] the proposed integration of the ARTISTEP into the military, and like we discussed with
[15:56] both factions buying for control. Now I want to understand from you about like
[16:00] how the historical power dynamics between the two generals is abdel Fatah al Burhan and
[16:08] Mohammad hamdandalo U they have, I mean, the power dynamics have shaped,
[16:15] you know, the current political crisis in Sudan following the coup in October twenty
[16:19] twenty one. As and how has this disagreement over the integration of the r
[16:25] SEF into the regular army contributed to the outbreak of violence in Sudan And with
[16:30] both the factions seeming to, you know, not back down, what are
[16:34] the potential implications of this conflict for the country's security and stability in the long
[16:40] term. Now, firstly, the two groups are the the Sudanese Army.
[16:45] Yeah, and the Rapid Support Forces which is the RSP. So for the
[16:51] benefit of our listeners, RSFs the Rapid Support Forces. But don't go by
[16:56] a very uh what do you say, harmless name. The name does not
[17:02] suggest what ours if actually is. It's actually special forces. They've been involved
[17:07] in operations, special operations. They are very different group of h and wing
[17:15] of the armed forces in Sudan so known to be very ruthless as well.
[17:23] Region. Yes, the kind of ethnic cleansing that they did, Yes,
[17:29] I think that's like one of the biggest blots in there. Yes, yes,
[17:33] and in their um we'd call it a blot. But I'm just saying
[17:38] that, you know, they're known to be very, very ruthless. The
[17:42] Darfo conflict showed to our listeners again you know, you'd have to go and
[17:48] see what happened in Darfur really showed a side of the military might of Saddan,
[17:56] which at this point in time you can actually see that they don't care
[18:00] for their people and they don't care for anything but to get power. And
[18:04] there are negotiations that both sides they're talking about, and both sides have already
[18:10] said. While the West is saying that you know, come to the talking
[18:12] table, at least talk it out. They're saying, no, military is
[18:15] the only option out, which means either I snuff you out or you snuff
[18:19] me out. What world? So anyway, the conflict between the two groups
[18:25] now relations between these two wings of the armed forces, the army, which
[18:33] is of course a very powerful wing of the Sudanese establishment, and the RSF,
[18:40] which was founded in twenty thirteen. So it is not a very old
[18:44] organization, one that's relevant, relatively new, but also one that is unmatched
[18:52] in the kind of operations it does, the ruthlessness with which it has carried
[18:59] out its operations known to have violated human rights to no end. So some
[19:07] reports say that including killing more than one twenty protesters in June twenty nineteen,
[19:15] which was which was actually quite bad. So what is the RSF. We've
[19:19] already explained that it is a special up wing of the military forces. But
[19:27] when one leader thinks that he's bigger and he deserves to rule Sudan and all
[19:34] this happened because the president dictator was ousted and after that these two leaders between
[19:45] whom the fight began for to control Sudan, there were negotiations that were underway.
[19:53] There were talks between the two sides to come to an understanding, but
[19:59] it doesn't seemed like either side agreed to an understanding. And we're here and
[20:03] we're looking at a situation right now where both sides have actually openly said that
[20:10] it's the military option is the only way out, which means they're going to
[20:15] die, kill each other, kill people to win a land. And what's
[20:21] a land without its people, without its people's So it's a very dangerous and
[20:26] sad affair. Nobody's been able to talk them into even a cease fire.
[20:32] So there were conversations that took place for at least a cease fire so that
[20:37] they can evacuate foreign nationals. So Burhan and Dagalo disagree over how the ten
[20:45] thousand strong RSF should be integrated into the army and which authority should oversee the
[20:49] process. Also, Dagalo wanted to delay the integration for ten years, but
[20:55] the Army said it would take place in the next two years. So that's
[20:59] amazing. You're a part of the problem where the gallo, who actually is
[21:04] not from the real army wing, he's from the paramilitary is saying because he
[21:11] wants to take control. So he's actually questioning authority of the army chief saying
[21:17] that it should happen in ten years because he needs those ten years to to
[21:22] to become a stronger entity. And Burhan is very clear that it should happen
[21:26] in two years established position. Yes, So the army viewed the rsef's recent
[21:32] redeployment across the nation as a provocative act and an active and a dangerous move.
[21:38] They actually m de Gallo had started moving and deploying in places where they
[21:45] were not supposed to be deployed, because it is a chain of command,
[21:49] and that's when you get a whiff that something is up with him. Yeah,
[21:55] and to add to what you said, leader, if I'm not wrong,
[21:57] So Dan became in the pendant in nineteen fifty six, and its allows
[22:02] that two years later, in nineteen fifty eight, the then president invited or
[22:07] rather offered General Ibrahim a boat to lead a military coup against the civilian government
[22:14] which was elected. And since then we have seen a number of coups,
[22:18] restoration of civilian governments, unrest, civil wars, and recently which we were
[22:22] talking about, a joint military civilian government that was established in the country,
[22:27] but that was also overthrown another coup in October twenty twenty one when General Burhan
[22:33] took over. Now, like you said that, you know both Burhan,
[22:37] General Burhan and General Dagarlo, they have claimed that they support the idea of
[22:44] returning to civilian rule, with General Burhan differing in the sense that he has
[22:48] said that he'll only hand over power to an elected government. But General Dagarlo
[22:53] has said in a series of tweets, he has mentioned this that General Burhan's
[22:57] government quote unquote radical Islamists and that he and the Russif were fighting for the
[23:06] people of Sudan to ensure the democratic progress for which they have so long yearned.
[23:11] But like we mentioned, ARF's track record is not latent as its origins
[23:18] and in the notorious juncta militia that brutally you know, fought rebels in the
[23:23] are fool they were accused of ethnic cleansing. But I was wondering that now,
[23:29] I mean both this, you know, they were allies and now this
[23:32] blame game, Like do you think is it really possible to restore democracy when
[23:37] the two opposing because they said that they agree to this civilian rule. Now
[23:42] is it possible to restore democracy when you know, they seem really unwilling to
[23:47] agree on a solution. And alternatively, if you see, it's worth considering
[23:52] that whether the two generals are genuinely even committed to you know, as just
[23:56] a facade that yes, we believe in these idols, but I mean,
[24:00] the infighting is just it seems clearly ari because if they are reluctant to step
[24:07] down, is it due to their desire to retain their positions and wealth?
[24:11] Could it be that this continued fighting is merely you know, a way for
[24:15] them to avoid Sudan's living into a civilian rule. So interesting, all this
[24:21] has happened when Anna, it happened at a time when Sudan was due for
[24:26] elections. So so when when the country is due for elections is when they're
[24:33] thinking who should the power lie with? And that's when this entire strife happened.
[24:41] The then dictator, President Omar al Bashir was ousted in twenty nineteen.
[24:48] Then they then they came, then they came into an understanding. Yeah,
[24:52] that's background. Yeah, it happened after thirty years, after thirty years of
[24:56] dictatorship, Omar al Bashir was ousted there was a civilian government that was put
[25:02] in place and Abdul Hamdoc was appointed Prime minister for what for a smooth transition
[25:08] into elections and then an elected government. But when it came to declare elections,
[25:15] that's when the military commanders realized of the army and the paramilitary wing of
[25:22] the military forces, which is our SEF, that it is time to hand
[25:26] over. So any handover after seeing tasting power becomes difficult. And that's what
[25:33] we're seeing over here. This is not the first time or the first instance
[25:37] where you're seeing a country that has to go to elections and people who have
[25:41] to make that smooth transition are not very comfortable. I'm giving an example.
[25:48] It's a real stretch. It is nothing to do with a country like Sudan,
[25:52] but again like Pakistan, they're due for elections, the deadline ended and
[25:57] they have not called for elections because they're holding onto power. Now that they
[26:03] have it, they're saying that okay abhimahal Tekna, there is danger from India.
[26:07] They have actually cited danger from India and all of that. To not
[26:11] hold elections, So to not hold elections is a very old problem of the
[26:21] of the global South. Unfortunately, people only talk good things, saying that
[26:25] global South should grow, Global South should become like a global North, so
[26:29] on and so forth, but accept and identify, accept, acknowledge problems.
[26:37] The problem with global South is this power struggle. Everywhere you see Jaha jaha,
[26:42] Gharib besh waha, waha. Whoever is in power does not want to
[26:48] give up again. The other thing that is a problem with the Global South
[26:52] and with developing and developed nations are that you cannot celebrate one form of democracy.
[26:57] I agree, ta okay. American democracy is not absolutely similar to Indian
[27:04] democracy. Of course, Indian democracy is also as mature. Let's say American
[27:08] democracy is not a Chinese form of government. Now China says Chinese democracy,
[27:15] right, Yeah, they're different over year. Also the forms of government are
[27:21] different. But there is an intrinsic problem Anna with countries that have military who
[27:27] are part of the executive, a part of decision making. Jeb Upka army
[27:34] men leave the barracks and start coming out and taking decisions. It becomes a
[27:40] problem for the country. Our neighbor is an example. They might keep doubting
[27:45] their civilian dispensation between no example, we've seen that Burma as an example.
[27:49] Where military dictators or military controls the country those countries, it does become a
[27:59] problem. So in Sudan, the intrinsic problem today is the fact that there
[28:04] are military rulers who are controlling Sudan. The ousted happened Abdallah Hamdog became the
[28:11] prime minister. Was he in control? If he were in control, these
[28:15] men would have been in their barracks. Yeah, and as they should have
[28:19] been in their barracks. But that's not how this country functions. And that's
[28:25] why. When did you see the growing tensions just some time ago? And
[28:30] when did you see the conflict erupt in twenty twenty three when they were supposed
[28:36] to hold elections. And that's your intrinsic problem in Sudan, that if you
[28:41] hold elections there will be a transition to civilian government elected by the people.
[28:48] If you see the leadership over here, whether if it is left in general
[28:52] Abdul Fatan al Burhan or for that matter, rsf's chief Mohammad Hamadan, the
[29:00] Gallo, when you see this leadership, how did they ousted Bashir because they
[29:06] were already part of the system now, because they've always had enjoyed power.
[29:11] It's not like they were. They were always They've always enjoyed power, and
[29:15] today what are you seeing. You're seeing them wanting to retain that power.
[29:21] There if it was an armed conflict between groups back then and a military and
[29:25] all of them coming together to ousted the then president, their dictator, Bashir,
[29:32] the fact is that they have enjoyed power for too long to give that
[29:34] up. But is that worth the kind of loss of life that you're seeing
[29:40] in the streets of Khartoom and beyond. Absolutely unacceptable. And this is not
[29:47] this is not the only limited conflict the Sudana scene. Like you've said in
[29:51] your introduction, Sudan has been a country that has been completely mired with conflict,
[30:00] with tensions, with exectarian, ethnic conflicts, so on and so forth.
[30:07] So you've seen all of that and in that now you're seeing an election
[30:11] that is not going to happen anytime soon, and the Scapegoatekan's scapegoat the victim
[30:21] of the fight that is happening for power or the people, whether they are
[30:26] Sudanese nationals or foreign nationals. For now, we've not seen reports of our
[30:32] nationals being killed killed as many, but if the numbers rise, then then
[30:40] these generals will really be in trouble. Yeah, and we'll come to that
[30:45] about the I mean Sudan's allies and the US role in it. But like
[30:49] you said, I mean, this is the election thing and it's just heated
[30:53] up right now. But let's go a little bit back. I remember watching
[30:57] this documentary by Jazira that highlighted the tensions between the predominantly Christian South Sudan and
[31:06] Muslim dominated North Sudan. So, I mean they were interviewing a lot of
[31:10] a few people there and when asked about the rude cause of the conflict,
[31:15] many of those interviewed placed the blame on the British. They said that,
[31:18] I mean, that's uh yeah, there they said that British, I mean
[31:23] who ruled Sudan in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries along with Egypt,
[31:27] and it was its imposed policies that sowed the seeds of tensions between the Arab
[31:33] and Christian communities there now as a background or to this, in the eighteen
[31:37] nineties, British forces invaded Sudan, bringing it under their control, imposing their
[31:44] policies and filling the top administrative posts with British officials. Now, the British
[31:49] were known to invest heavily in the North, and I'm talking a little bit
[31:52] about North and South Sudan here as in like Sudan and South Sudan, they
[31:57] invested heavily in the North, modernized the schools there and promote Islam, whereas
[32:02] in the South that was ruled by Egypt, the British led Christian missionaries run
[32:07] the education system. So the tactic of divide and rule, they're very infamous
[32:13] of that or famous, is very apparent there. Although Soudan gained independence in
[32:17] nineteen fifty six, the South was still ruled by our remote administration based in
[32:22] Khartum. But you know, the people said that when the British left,
[32:29] out of eight hundred civil posts vacated by the British, only four were given
[32:34] to the South Sudanese and further exacerbating the differences between the two religious communities.
[32:39] And so now after you know, almost one hundred years, with the British
[32:43] long gone, multiple coops have taken place, like we've discussed, and civilian
[32:46] governments have struggled to survive. And against this backdrop, the current in fighting
[32:52] between the army and ar paramilitary forces. That also begs the question of who
[32:58] should be held responsible for the country's current dire situation. I mean, is
[33:02] there any one party or while you know timeline that you can specifically point out
[33:08] saying that, yes, you're the things really went wrong. As your sister
[33:13] culminated, you know, when bad decisions are made during the inception in Sudan
[33:17] is a fairly newer country. During the inception of a country, then what
[33:22] happens is that your foundations are not set in the right manner in which should
[33:29] be Again, I bring you examples is only because one should understand one can
[33:36] understand easier with comparisons. So the British, a lot of them blame it,
[33:43] blame the recent strife and troubles to what happened to the colonial past.
[33:51] But the fact is that the British always in their exit try to create a
[33:59] scenario where they're trying to create countries nations in a way that they divide the
[34:07] people and make homogeneous sets so that there is no problem. Because there was
[34:13] so much in fighting, and all that fighting started because the British bag then
[34:19] wanted to divide and rule in many ways than one. But that does not
[34:22] help when you're leaving, when you're exiting. So when you're exiting, you'd
[34:25] want them to have a cleaner future because you'd want to deal with them and
[34:30] you don't want to have that baggage. But I always say that when you
[34:34] start looking at when you start celebrating homogeneity to diversity, that's where you're wrong.
[34:40] You could have just let su Down be diverse exactly, or India India
[34:46] and diverse, not having to create a separate I'm just saying, just saying,
[34:53] okay, or creating a state for Israel because they were a certain kind
[35:00] end of people, which means Jewish ethnicity or Jewish community. So and you
[35:07] were okay not recognizing Palestine. There over here you again divided because you thought
[35:14] that the Muslims and the Christians need to stay apart to live in peace.
[35:20] It doesn't help because your basis, your foundation has begun with a negative,
[35:25] a negative that you and these people and these people can't get along, so
[35:30] we will decide for them. India, fortunately, I mean there's a lot
[35:36] of latent maybe problems between communities, but in terms of our constitution did not
[35:42] why because we had a very long struggle and we had some very educated,
[35:47] intellectual people who were founding the base for India. They were very clear that
[35:53] it has to be a civilian government. There was no question that it could
[35:59] go any other way. Pakistan Jinnah did not survive that long for it to
[36:05] become a civilian government. With Jinna gone, it moved towards a military establishment
[36:13] soon enough. Why did that happen? I know we're talking Sudan, but
[36:15] I'm just giving you because it's an interesting snippet. Because when when when partition
[36:21] happened, most of the armed forces serving under the British rule in the undivided
[36:30] India were from the other side, so they actually inherited a lot of the
[36:35] military and they were again well read people who knew what they wanted and they
[36:43] used it to their advantage on the other side. So over here, I'm
[36:46] not going to blame them, but yes, the colonial past of seeing peace
[36:52] by dividing is not bringing peace. It does not bring peace. If you
[36:59] say Orginus, Hindu, Muslim, Christians, Khara and Ala, it does
[37:06] not. The problem back then, yes, yeah, because they did not
[37:10] understand the beauty of diversity. Now everybody sings glorious songs about diverse cultures,
[37:16] and diversity just too bad. You left an entire region separating and dividing people.
[37:23] So, yes, it was a problem, Yes it is a problem.
[37:27] But did the people change, No, they started usurping powers. You've
[37:31] had more dictators in the African continent and of course the neigh neighborhood than in
[37:39] any other part of the world. Right, And while you can talk about
[37:44] Russia and Russian dictatorship, that's a much later, a very different system or
[37:49] she chin ping this over here. What you're seeing our dictators who've been in
[37:54] power for thirty forty fifty years or maybe a generation after generation, and to
[38:01] ouse them would have certainly been a problem. But it goes from there too,
[38:06] where it goes from the conflict, Sorry, it goes from the colonial
[38:15] past to what happened after when we saw the Arabization of northern Sidan, the
[38:23] Egyptian Turko Egyptian influence on northern Sidan, and then the slave trade of southern
[38:34] Sudan by the north. So when what happened? What are we doing over
[38:39] here? We are perpetuating furthering more divisions, we meaning them. So the
[38:47] divisions continued, in fact widened, which is why we had the whole North
[38:53] Sidan South Sudan conflict for the longest and now you have and now you have
[39:01] the entire crisis coming to a boiling point, not because their divisions, because
[39:07] the man has been ousted. We have moved beyond the problems of who was
[39:14] exploiting whom too purely pure dictators, military leaders who want to now control the
[39:22] country. And what country a country that is absolutely resource rich, Hannah.
[39:28] If these are countries that actually formulate policies, have a smooth civilian government,
[39:35] they will be rich yea, and they actually can do so much more for
[39:40] themselves and for their country. Like I'm just a very interesting snippet that i
[39:46] want to share with you in the documentary itself, I was at a civilian
[39:51] in Khartum. He was interviewed by the Al Jazeera reporters, and this person
[39:57] he highlighted a very significant gap between the generations in Sudan. He said that
[40:01] the younger generation. He was an elderly I think probably in like in his
[40:06] fifties, and he said that the younger generation questions the value of democracy and
[40:10] freedom in Sudan. They asked them as in there I mean his son or
[40:14] daughter. He was referring to them, and he said that, my,
[40:17] you know, children, they asked me what democracy is, haven't you as
[40:22] in like the older generation failed in attaining it, you know, so the
[40:27] younger generation is quite and it might be like a very narrow kind of a
[40:30] sample a view to it, a bit of a myopic view to it.
[40:35] But I'm not saying that, you know, it's just that I mean,
[40:37] he said that. He pointed out that the younger generation, according to his
[40:40] opinion, is quite pessimistic about whether these ideals, these democracy you know,
[40:46] democratic ideals have failed in the country, and now what is the purpose to
[40:50] even fight for it. So let's just you know, we have seen the
[40:52] older generation. We've seen our fathers for fathers, mothers, you know,
[40:57] fighting for it and now just yield it to nothing. They are because they
[41:01] have so much of view of the world. Now look at the access these
[41:07] kids have. Not a single country in Africa barring really far flung remote areas.
[41:17] Do you have kids who do not have access to a mobile phone,
[41:22] internet, their world, their music, fantastic music. But they do have
[41:30] access. But in that access, they also see the free world. They
[41:34] see the world different. They see movies, they see how different different countries
[41:39] are. So there was a time when people in Sudan were not questioning authority
[41:45] for the longest. Why because they had no access to information, And now
[41:51] the younger generation has access. I'm telling you the video that I saw was
[41:53] a of a young boy just taking a video or selfie video and talking and
[41:59] uploading it. And most of the content that you're seeing that are coming,
[42:02] whether it's through wires or on social media. Seeing so many kids who are
[42:07] actually putting up young kids or youngsters, the youth who are just saying what
[42:14] is happening. There's a small section that says, okay, but we need
[42:19] to have clarity on who's but they're from the factions. You see a little
[42:24] bit about US's role here, because that's very important, you know, because
[42:30] it loves placing sanctions or African countries, but its role in the crisis and
[42:37] Sudan has more history to it. Sudan has often been called the arms dump
[42:43] of Africa. During the Cold War, it was one of the many proxy
[42:46] battlefields for the US and the Soviet Union, who would wage war here via
[42:52] local proxies, and the US reportedly sold arms worth over a billion dollars to
[43:00] Sudan. During that time, Now, both these major powers, you know,
[43:05] saw the makings of an ethnic power struggle, the seats of which had
[43:09] been sown by the British in Sudan, and they almost reduced the seriousness of
[43:15] the tensions in the country to their narrow battle of capitalism versus communism. After
[43:22] the end of the Cold War, you know, and the breakup of the
[43:23] Soviet Union, with the US now seeing itself as the upholder of good virtue
[43:30] in the world, sanctions were placed in Sudan, with the US labeling it
[43:34] as a state sponsor of terrorism. Now Sudan was cut off from all the
[43:39] international trade and deprived of even essential items like healthcare equipment. And they ultimately
[43:45] the sanctions they lifted in the twenty seventeen But you could, you know,
[43:51] actually argue that the twenty years of economic sanctions would have played a major role
[43:58] in the civil wars that have plagued the country and even the secession of South
[44:01] Sudan. My question, you're being gita that, like in so many countries,
[44:05] most recently in Afghanistan, can the US and the major powers escape accountability
[44:12] here for how they have exploited, you know, a resource rich country for
[44:17] their own games and then left it to rot when their own objectives have been
[44:22] served there. Or would you say that my assessment here is too harsh on
[44:27] the US and there was more the presence of the major powers in Sudan than
[44:31] meets the eye because the pseudonyms people actually hate the Americans as much as they
[44:37] hate the British. Okay, again, very interesting. Let's see is your
[44:43] assessment harsh? Of course? Is it rightly? So? I think so.
[44:46] So let's leave it at that, Barty, because you're I'm one has
[44:53] to get a map out to our listeners. If you're listening, pull out
[44:59] of maps where Sudan is. We just spoke about North Sudan and the predominant
[45:04] Muslim leadership of Sudan. Okay, let's take it from there. Yes,
[45:08] Sudan is placed very close to the Gulf States, Israel, and then you
[45:15] have Africa and the African states of Eritrea, Ethiopia, the rest. Right.
[45:21] So, a Muslim state very close to Israel, very close to the
[45:27] Gulf States, would support what cause. They will support the Palestinian cause,
[45:34] they will support YC, they will be a part of the Arab world,
[45:40] North Africa and the Muslim states in North Africa are part of the Arab world.
[45:45] Egypt, yes, for example, So you're part of that entire system.
[45:51] Right. In nineteen sixty seven, Sudan declared war on Israel and brogue
[45:58] diplomatic relations with the US. This is sixty seven before the conversations that before
[46:06] what you said about the details of US Sudan relations. You have to understand
[46:10] how important Israel is for America. So in nineteen sixty seven Sudan declared war
[46:17] on Israel and broke diplomatic relations with the US. US and Sudan have had
[46:22] a very difficult time all through. And why because in fact, the US
[46:29] ambassador, ambassador to Sudan and the deputy Chief of mission in Khartum were murdered.
[46:37] They were murdered there apparently or allegedly by Palestine inter terrorists who the Sudanese
[46:44] then charged and cried. But that's how difficult situation was. This was in
[46:49] nineteen seventy three. Then in nineteen seventy four they were released to the custody
[46:53] of Egyptian government, those who were indicted and in the in the US ambassador
[47:02] to Sudan was then withdrawn as a mark of protests. So that's how bad
[47:07] things were. But where where's the basis? The basis is the fact that
[47:10] it's a Muslim country. Yeah, it's a Muslim country, predominantly Muslim Muslim
[47:16] leadership. Back then the dictator was Bashir, and so they were they had
[47:22] a stand on what Israel is to them, what Palestine is to them,
[47:27] and how they're part of this entire Arab world where a lot of influences drawn
[47:34] from this part of the world. And back then the United States of America
[47:37] did not hold the kind of suede does now in the Gulf world. So
[47:42] the United States went from an important relationship with Sudan to no relationship with Sudan,
[47:52] to then again in the Cold War period where things were dipping, and
[47:59] then it deteriorated to the extent that there was a reduction in staff of the
[48:05] US embassy in Khartoum. This was an eighty five around the time when when
[48:10] Libya was bombed, Around the time when Libya was bombed another Muslim state.
[48:16] I'm saying this, a lot of people will see you're putting too much importance
[48:20] and emphasis now, but you have to see where they are, their neighbors
[48:23] so on and so forth. So around the time and Libya was bombed,
[48:28] Okay, things really deteriorated with Sudan. But then there was a real push
[48:36] for engagement on part of America because this again is bought a resource rich state
[48:43] there. You always require alternatives. You also don't want to see dictators in
[48:52] any part of the world. You were already involved in Libya, You've been
[48:59] involved in many parts of the work of that world. Beat Egypt itself,
[49:05] which again was a dictatorship for the longest, even if it was not a
[49:10] not a very harsh dictatorship, but nonetheless was a dictatorship. So you are
[49:16] dealing with all these dictators still the time you see that you need to engage
[49:22] them, not just to reduce the conflict, but also to become a global
[49:27] become an important global player to bring about or negotiate peace. Yeah, and
[49:32] which is when you saw a shift. But it has been a very difficult
[49:37] relationship because things in that region are very different. The politics and dynamics are
[49:42] different because there is an Israel exactly, I mean, Israel's presence is actually
[49:46] in regions is a huge thing. So when you have Israel there, you
[49:52] have US's interest in ensuring there is peace because they already have a lot of
[49:58] problems with Palestine. They I did not want it with the neighboring countries also
[50:01] supporting a cause that is anti Israel. Israel's support protection everything comes from the
[50:07] United States of America. And that's why the United States of America is so
[50:12] invested in ensuring that these muslimitators do not to ye close to Israel, do
[50:17] not take a positions, stand decisions that are detrimental to Israel, Israel's national
[50:24] interest and harbored quote unquote terrorists you know who are who work against Israel's interests
[50:35] and therefore America's interests. Yeah, so that anybody who's reading this always pull
[50:42] out a map and see where the country is, what the ethnicity of the
[50:45] country is important, what the religion major dominating religion of that country is,
[50:51] and then you will and then you zoom out a little, you will be
[50:53] able to see why that country decided the way it did. Why is USA
[51:00] engaging this country, Why the penetration in this part of the world, because
[51:04] there are dictators on the other side. Also, nobody's caring about them exactly.
[51:07] But North Africa, that entire belt is very important for America, particularly
[51:13] because there's its rail. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense
[51:17] to my harshness or harsh assessment. Mariyah, I just want to end this
[51:23] discussion with a little bit on Egypt's role here about understanding Sudan's allies and their
[51:30] roles and Egypt. Also the relation between Egypt and Sudan is also important,
[51:36] and I was reading a BBC article that noted that Egypt is facing a dilemma
[51:39] in the conflict in Sudan that's happening currently as Egypt is close to Sudan's army
[51:46] which is fighting against the artist of that is believed to be backed by the
[51:52] UA, and the Dalma isn't like backed by the UA, and UE is
[51:55] a major financial supporter of Egypt. And besides this, Egypt also they already
[52:02] i mean hosts you know, five million Sudanese fleeing poverty and fighting, and
[52:08] recent years they have seen a marked increase in Sudanese migrants in Cairo. Egypt
[52:15] regards Sudan as an indispensable ally in the dispute with Ethiopia over the Nassa Dam,
[52:22] and a weak regime in the Khartum or An alternative political order hostile to
[52:29] Cairo could have serious repercussions. But however, you know, Egypt's government appears
[52:35] to have struggled to respond credibly to the chaos in Khartum, partly due to
[52:39] the complexity of the political landscape in Sudan and the similarity of recent developments in
[52:45] the two countries. Now, Egypt's options are further limited by its economic crisis
[52:50] as well, with galloping inflation and growing poverty. Now, ultimately, Egypt
[52:55] wants to see stability, security and sustain ability for Sudan, but the Sudanese
[53:01] political class fears Authoritatian regimes using quote unquote national interests as a pretext to suppress
[53:09] dissent. I want to understand from you a bit complicated here, as in
[53:15] what factors are limiting Egypt's ability to take a clear position on the conflict in
[53:22] Sudan? Does this dilemma? I mean, it's a leeged dilemma that they're
[53:27] facing. But how this How might Egypt's dilemma impact the stability and security of
[53:35] both countries, particularly in light of their historical and strategic relationship. The presence
[53:39] of millions of Sudanese refugees in Egypt and Egypt's economic crisis. So right now
[53:47] it's not about a greater dilemma for Egypt or the UE or which country anna,
[53:53] because right now you have to see the interests and whose interests I'm with
[54:00] whom, But also whether if being so close, being neighbors, critical partners,
[54:06] allies, will they be able to affect change? Will they be able
[54:09] to bring about some samblance of sanity, normalcy, whether it's Ua or Egypt,
[54:19] both in their own way have spelt it out. They have not come
[54:22] out with a clear response to ending the conflict. And why why are we
[54:30] talking about these two sides is because, like you rightly said, Egypt supports
[54:34] the army whereas UI has. It's not a recent support. Ue has invested
[54:39] for quite a few years in the RSF because they knew that this is a
[54:47] paramiltary wing of the establishment that is growing and they could see this the man
[54:58] the gallo having a vision to lead. So you want to engage the leaders,
[55:05] which is what has happened over here. Egypt engaged the army, but
[55:08] Ue engaged the the RSF. And in that what did they do? Now
[55:15] this is again a very important part when South Sudan seeded from Sudan. It
[55:22] took away seventy five percent of Khartoum's oil resources, wow, leaving it with
[55:29] very less. And then what did Sudan do. It started luring countries and
[55:35] investors who have oil, which was again the United Arab Emirates as well.
[55:40] Now, yes, and that's when Yui looked at it as an opportunity to
[55:47] expand and they started investing in Da Gallo, who supplied thousands of men to
[55:54] aid the Emirates in Saudi Arabia in their battle according to reports, and their
[56:00] battle against Iran backed Hothi rebels in Yemen. So the proxy wars, it
[56:06] is a very complicated story, a very complicated region. So you have a
[56:10] proxy war that is underway in Yemen, which is what we had spoken of
[56:15] some time ago, that proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia is happening in
[56:22] Yemen. Yes, but Saudis are not sending their soldiers to Yemen. Iran
[56:27] is sending is using Hothi rebels. So who are they sending to Yemen.
[56:32] They're using these wings, these state actors, non state actors to continue with
[56:42] their agenda in Yemen. So that's where Degalu derives his importance from. He
[56:50] was one of those guys who did not He was not from mainstream. It
[56:52] was not like Sudanese army has intervened in Yemen. They are non state actors.
[57:00] He's sending men, He's not sending men from the army. He's sending
[57:02] his boys that he's training and sending across. So that's where the help comes
[57:07] from. And that's why they're not pulling out support. And that's why they're
[57:12] all stuck because they're all invested in sides. They took sides, invested in
[57:16] sides now there. They are not part of the solution. They are part
[57:22] of the problem. Whether if it is Egypt siding with the army or the
[57:27] gulfs siding with the Gallo, they're all part of the problem. Instead,
[57:30] you should have engaged the civilian government. You should have looked at streamlining governance.
[57:37] But that doesn't help their case. Who makes money If everything is streamlined,
[57:42] you'll have to go through tenders. When you have military rulers, Look
[57:45] at Pakistan, look at Burma. When you have military rulers, then your
[57:51] deals get past, your contracts get past very easily. So for their advantage.
[57:58] Now it is to their advantage. Why because the biggest spillover that's going
[58:01] to happen is going to happen into these countries exactly, and the biggest and
[58:07] the biggest ramification of this in terms of laws, in terms of destruction,
[58:12] in terms of refugees, all of that is going to be to the neighboring
[58:15] countries. So while we're discussing this, this is the story. It's a
[58:19] template. Anna, I can take this template and discuss any conflict with you.
[58:23] Exactly. I just have to look at the country, the region,
[58:28] the ethnicity, the religion and the countries and you just can connect the dots.
[58:34] So for them to find a solution, there has to be some hard
[58:37] pressing asking these military rulers to come to the talking table and that they're not
[58:44] going to have it any other way. Nobody wants to get into it militarily.
[58:47] There is no military intervention, No NATO is coming, no military block
[58:53] is coming and saying we will intervene should you not stop. The worries are
[58:58] not just the spillover, but also foreign nationals who are stranded there, which
[59:00] includes a lot of Indians. We have our Operation car Verry that has been
[59:07] launched and of which two military aircraft are in Jedda right now on standby should
[59:15] it get filled, should the Indians be able to reach Saudi Arabia, they'll
[59:19] be flown out of there. There is a ship that is on the Sudan
[59:22] pot. Should they be able to reach that place, they would board and
[59:28] then would take the ship back to safety. But till then we're only looking
[59:35] at a very difficult situation where every country is trying to rescue its nationals and
[59:40] in the process help other countries and partner nations in rescuing their nationals as well.
[59:45] Yeah. Actually, I think as far as the latest data shows,
[59:49] five hundred Indians have been they have boarded the navy ship and three thousand are
[59:54] awaited to yes Eva. So they're waiting because the ship will not move till
[59:59] the time it fills up the borders. Reaching a crossing over is very difficult,
[1:00:05] but they have two two aircraft on standby in Jedda and Prime Minister himself
[1:00:13] held a meeting where Foreign Secretary Doctor Jahnker, the External fest Minister, Foreign
[1:00:19] Secretary Quatra, and critical envoys over critical countries where there are ambassador in Sudan
[1:00:25] are ambassador in Saudi Arabia or ambassador in Egypt, and are ambassador in one
[1:00:31] more country. They were all there attending that meeting because the evacuation will happen
[1:00:37] with and in coordination with partner countries. And these are the envoys representing those
[1:00:45] representing India in those partner countries. Okay, well, thank you for the
[1:00:50] discussion. I think the Egypt question answer that you gave was very very rightly
[1:00:55] said and rightly spoken. I think the template that you've spoken of, you
[1:01:00] know, it just rises, Yeah, it just makes everything like, yeah,
[1:01:02] now I can under when you see conflict. It's like me trying to
[1:01:07] teach. So when you see a place, when you see a conflict,
[1:01:10] look at the place, look at it on a stap. If you don't
[1:01:15] look at a country of conflict on a map, you will never understand.
[1:01:19] It will always be a flying you know, a past kind of a subject.
[1:01:24] But the moment you open a map and you see, okay, this
[1:01:27] is where Sudan is, this is where it is happening. These are the
[1:01:30] countries that are surrounding and just go into the history of what happened with each
[1:01:35] country, you will know where the trigger is. Yes, you know,
[1:01:38] and why they allowed this. Yeah, exactly to everybody's advantage till the time
[1:01:45] it is their advantage. Yes, yes, I just wish that. I
[1:01:49] just hope I was taken back to my class six or seven. I used
[1:01:53] to hate geography so much. I just have to recollect all of that.
[1:01:59] But yeah, I mean, do not miss those geogram because it is very
[1:02:02] very important to understand whether the kids are listening. Are they're allowed to listen
[1:02:06] to conflict podcast? But if students are listening, any students, I suggest
[1:02:14] every time you're looking at a conflict, the kids, and I tell you
[1:02:19] a very nice example of this. You know, when Russia Ukraine conflict happened,
[1:02:22] a lot of people didn't know where Ukraine was. Oh yeah, a
[1:02:25] lot of people didn't know where Ukraine was on the map. Yes, our
[1:02:31] sound engineer is agreeing to not he is, he's nodding, He's like,
[1:02:37] yes, yes, yes, we don't blame him for that. He can't.
[1:02:38] He can't be part of Next time you should add him. Also,
[1:02:42] just for perspective, you don't give him a mic because no, yes,
[1:02:50] yeah, no, no, you I'm telling you most of the conflicts,
[1:02:52] people don't know where it's happening till it hits you, till it hits you
[1:02:59] and your people. Yes, even then, half the people would not bother.
[1:03:04] I'm saying, just open a map. You need to know where it
[1:03:07] is, because then you understand the importance. You understand why Ukraine is important
[1:03:10] for Russian not just because it's a border. Go into the history. When
[1:03:15] you open the map, you see what did I say when you see conflict?
[1:03:19] This is to all the students. When you see conflict, open a
[1:03:22] map, look at the country, Look at the neighborhood, Look at the
[1:03:28] ethnicity of the country, look at the dominating religion, dominant religious religion,
[1:03:35] religious communities, dominant communities in that country, and then you realize what is
[1:03:40] at stake for which country? In Russia, Ukraine, Ukrainians are predominantly Russian
[1:03:46] origin, so just say like, you will not find that in Poland,
[1:03:50] purely European Poland Hungary. They look different, they speak a different language.
[1:03:55] Ukrainian spoke mostly spoke Russian till this started speaking Ukrainian. Right, So yeah,
[1:04:02] and listen until you zoom out a little, zoom in and then zoom
[1:04:06] out to see You will not understand. But the moment you see you will
[1:04:11] know. Oh, so a lot of people are saying Sudan, the Sudan,
[1:04:15] that nobody's realizes that Sudan is that close to Israel. It was bombed,
[1:04:19] Yes, and there was a problem, that's where and that the yes,
[1:04:25] you see the United States. What is the United States stake in Northern
[1:04:29] Africa? Why Northern Africa? Why Northern Africa which has predominantly Muslim population,
[1:04:38] because they will all be supporting Palestine exactly, Yes, and it's an existential
[1:04:44] threat for Israel, therefore a threat to America. But we focus a lot
[1:04:49] on America. It's the same for the West, for any of their native
[1:04:53] allies, for the United Kingdom, it's the same for everybody. But the
[1:04:58] engagement between Egypt and Sudan on and Ui Sudan is again very different, very
[1:05:01] different. Yes, to understand that, Zoom into our map, like,
[1:05:06] yeah, zoom into our podcast. Yes and listen to this. Yeah,
[1:05:14] yeah, And please let us know what you think of this podcast. And
[1:05:16] if if you the kids out there, I've been preparing for some exams,
[1:05:21] I think gas valuable in post will definitely be a blessing to them. But
[1:05:28] yeah, I mean, on a very serious note, if you liked the
[1:05:30] podcast let us know the number is eight five double eight nine, double six,
[1:05:33] double line six and the email ideas pots at the rate in thea today
[1:05:38] dot com. So I hope to see you soon again guitar with a different
[1:05:43] topic. And the enthusiasm that you come and the research that you come with,
[1:05:49] Oh my god. So yeah, just I only do my bit to
[1:05:55] match your level of research. No no, no, Like you said,
[1:05:59] I'm as one of your students on only trying to understand, but lovely speaking
[1:06:04] with lovely thank you. Bye,

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