# G20 Srinagar: Saudi Arabia, Turkey Snub Meet For Stake In Islamic World, Or For Pakistan? | Geeta's World, Ep 45

An episode of [Geeta's World](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1635741757), 23 May 2023, 30 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53970552/23_may_23_geeta_world_23_may_ep_45_128.mp3

Jammu and Kashmir is hosting the third tourism working group meeting of G20 countries in the capital city of Srinagar. However, the event is marred with controversies, since several observers believe that the choice of Srinagar as the venue is a strategic move by the Modi government to further its party's electoral interests, by projecting that Kashmir is now peaceful and normal. And India always maintained that Kashmir is its internal matter, But given major countries including Saudi Arabia, and Turkey giving the event a miss, have Pakistan and China succeeded in internationalising the Kashmir issue such that India is now facing the repercussions?

## Transcript

[0:00] This is India Today podcasts. Jammu and Kashmir is hosting the third Tourism Working
[0:08] Group meeting of G twenty countries in the capital city of Shinagar. However,
[0:13] the event is marked with controversies since several observers believe that the choice of Shinagar
[0:19] as the venue is a strategic move by the Modi government to further its party's
[0:24] electoral interests by projecting that Kashmir is now peaceful and normally how do you interpret
[0:30] the government's choice of Kashmir as the venue. India wanted to make sure that
[0:35] all parts of the country are covered and so it should not shy away from
[0:38] holding it in Shinagar. There can lead also ends up showing the endorsement that
[0:42] India gets from various top countries of the world. And India has always maintained
[0:49] that Kashmir is its internal matter. But given major countries including Saudi Arabia and
[0:54] Turkey giving the event, amiss have Pakistan and China succeeded in international is in
[1:00] the Kashmir issue such that India is now facing the repercussions impact. If anything,
[1:04] I'm seeing that the repercussions are lesser now. All these countries are primarily
[1:08] looking at it though a lot to do with OYP and that they have a
[1:11] role to play. So while they could not officially attend Turkey and Saudi Arabia
[1:15] did sell industry representatives. That's the breed. Hello, I'm anna Predesshoni with
[1:23] India to Day TV's Foreign Affairs editor Geta Mohun. Where with Geta's astute and
[1:27] incisive crasp of world affairs, we delve into all that is urgent and pressing
[1:33] in world politics and comprehend how these developments in other countries could shape India's global
[1:40] ambitions of being a Vishwa Guru. Let's unravel Geta's world. So we have
[1:47] entered to our forty fifth episode of Guta's World, and today Geta is joining
[1:53] us from Shinagar right in the middle of the third Tourist Working Group meeting of
[2:00] twenty countries which Kashmir is hosting this time. Hi, Geeta Ianna, how
[2:07] are you? How is Shana got treating you? It's not an easy place
[2:12] to cover any event from, so security heightened, but it's certainly is one
[2:17] which which is a historic injury n and not certainly not at such a large
[2:24] scale. UM, so a lot of a lot of developments, a lot
[2:30] of messaging, particularly a lot of messaging and look forward to what they have
[2:37] to say that. Yeah, security has been a real, real issue for
[2:40] us. Yeah, we'll be talking about all of this um during the scores
[2:45] of our conversation. And just a disclaimer that we'll try to keep this episode
[2:50] short and chrisp because as you, as Geeta rightly mentioned, it's a kind
[2:53] of a very hectic schedule that as she has to manage like multiple things,
[2:59] So will try to keep it short and Chris and try to like cover the
[3:04] major, you know, prominent aspects of this meeting. And just a little
[3:07] bit of background this meeting. It kicked off yesterday, which was Monday,
[3:13] and it will continue till tomorrow. That's on that serve Wednesday. And this
[3:16] is the first significant international event held in the region since the revocation of Article
[3:23] three seventy, which was in twenty nineteen, and like Geeta said, this
[3:28] event has necessitated stringent security measures. In factly in the addition to the Working
[3:35] Group meeting, there will be parallel events focused on film tourism and tourism.
[3:40] And while the event, you know, presence an opportunity to promote German Kashmir
[3:46] as a tourism destination. It has also phased criticism regarding the choice of venue
[3:52] and the government's motives behind it. In fact, additionally, several major countries
[3:58] have chosen not to be not to participate in the event, further fueling the
[4:01] controversy surrounding it. So we'll dive right in and address all these questions with
[4:08] Geeta, who is present on the ground covering the event. So gether.
[4:12] Let's begin by first, you know, addressing this factor that you know,
[4:16] I was reading that about Union Terrorism Secretary was Arvin Singh. He claimed that
[4:23] the G twenty event and it offers a unique opportunity to showcase the region's tourism
[4:30] potential and cultural richness. But contrary to the statement made by Singh, many
[4:36] observers believe that the choice of Srinagar as the venue is a strategic move by
[4:43] the Moode government to further its party's electoral interests. And this decision has sparked
[4:48] a debate due to, you know, the political sensitivities surrounding Kashmir. Despite
[4:54] you know, the state of Kashmir having experienced the revocation the government the observers
[5:00] feel that the government seems to believe that rather than relying on democratic means to
[5:04] address the political issues, its troubles and Kashmid can be alleviated through an intense
[5:11] public relations campaign. Now, you as an attendee of the meeting, you
[5:16] know and someone who is you know well aware of the security challenges and political
[5:20] tensions in Kashmi. How do you interpret the government's choice of Kashmir as the
[5:26] venue and do you believe that you know it's primarily driven by political motives or
[5:31] who are genuinely facilitate tourism promotion in Shinagar me There are two aspects to your
[5:38] question. Ana, Let me start to begin beginning with the with the one
[5:43] on why now. For India and the administration, it was very important to
[5:50] send out this message and the opportunity provided itself with a CHEAT twenty presidency.
[5:56] The fact that India holds the presidency and is not making exception to any major
[6:01] capital being discounted or being uh not being a part of the G twenty event
[6:08] is the reason why they also decided that Jermun Kishmi should also be a part
[6:13] of the country. Whether it is a natural Ermu and Kishmi all these areas
[6:18] where there is dispute and conflict with either Pakistan or China. It's not just
[6:24] Pakistan. Look at China. China has decided to not attend three critical meetings
[6:30] in our Natal, in Ladak, and in Jermo and Kishmi. They are
[6:33] not going to be a part of it because they consider Ladak and our natural
[6:39] Pradesh are parts of these areas distributed, and Jermu and Kishmi certainly because they
[6:46] are all weather friends of Pakistan. That is one aspect. But for India,
[6:49] the messaging was on two fronts. One is that Jermu and Kishmi is
[6:56] an integral part of India and therefore it is only it is only necessary that
[7:02] India sends out that message. Secondly, in organizing this event in Kishmia and
[7:10] Srinagar, there is a sort of an international endorsement that is coming from the
[7:15] G twenty. Now, barring a few countries, every other country is represented.
[7:20] Some of them because of the criticality and sensitibility of the issue of Kishmi
[7:25] the situation on the ground, have represented are represented only through the embassies and
[7:30] some at a very low official level, but official nonetheless, quite a few
[7:34] of them are ambassadorial level. Some of them even you know, with people
[7:40] coming from their respective countries. So there is a lot of massive representation,
[7:45] which is the second part that one India wanted to make sure that all parts
[7:49] of the country are covered and so it should not shy away from holding it
[7:54] in Sarnagar. Secondly, it also ends up showing the indorsement that India gets
[8:00] from various top countries of the world and the ones who have not attended are
[8:07] because of their own issues and it has nothing to do with the on the
[8:11] dialactual front. Take for example, South Arabia, they have a strategic pownership,
[8:16] but also Saudi Arabia has a responsibility because of the leading voice and the
[8:22] head and heading the OIC. So in that Islamic forum, they are the
[8:28] leading voice and they cannot dilute their stand by taking a position against the issues
[8:35] that they actually write so passionately about. Now or you have seen OIC statements
[8:39] in the past on Kishmir, it would not have been appropriate to or property
[8:43] for the leading Islamic countries then to be a part of this physically, they
[8:48] have taken very strong position on Kishmir. With that position, it was impossible
[8:54] for Saudi Arabia to have attended this entire event in there were some proposals anna
[9:01] of attending virtually, but India rejected those offers. Why because the idea was
[9:07] to be present in person. There are many countries who actually made it a
[9:13] point despite all the stands and the positions that suitition for them, but they
[9:18] nonetheless did come, albeit at a very low level from the embassy. There
[9:22] are many other countries who have turned up. So for countries like Banglada as
[9:26] Indonesia, then they would have turned around and said, well, if they
[9:28] could attend it virtually, bar couldn't we for in death the important part was
[9:33] to have them present in person. So those who did not want to did
[9:39] not turn up. Although yes, when he asked our officials here as to
[9:43] whether if there are confirmations, what happened, what's the reason, they all
[9:46] said, well, don't miss the wood for the trees is what harsharing Lessage
[9:50] twenty god Masor said on the popcant said that only China bar in China,
[9:56] everyone else that has attended, which was basically a spin because Turk in Saudi
[10:00] Arabia officially have not attended, they did send industry representatives and the spin over
[10:07] here is that well Oman registered. Okay, it's also about registrating. If
[10:15] you've registered, you've showed in TECT. But they are saying that at last
[10:18] minute they could not attempt. They're still trying to get a confirmation because there's
[10:24] another day to go. Whether if you know, at a low level um
[10:26] they have officers who are still present. But these are countries that are that
[10:31] are important strategic partners of India, but they also have a responsibility and a
[10:37] role to play in the Islamic world. So that's why there was clarity there,
[10:41] which means that doesn't mean that ties between India and Saudi Arabia will will
[10:46] get affected, but it also means that you know, Anna, when when
[10:50] Amata card said a bar in China, every other country is attended because they
[10:54] have a private participation, You're somewhere diluting the truth. And that dilution of
[10:58] truth does not help in the longer run. This is in future when I
[11:03] when when when when they when they have to ask Saudi Arabia for something,
[11:07] Saudi Arabia asked India for something, They can't turn around and say, but
[11:11] you did not, you did not come to Kashmir. Because officially their position
[11:15] is that they did not come to Kashmia for other reasons, not because of
[11:18] Kishman. That does not help in terms of policy. I think it does
[11:22] not help at all. You'll be honest, you say, well, these
[11:26] other countries who despired it in spite of being a part of the IC attended
[11:30] and endorsed India, please did not be understand it does not attenplies. Yeah,
[11:33] and in fact, why do you have to, like there are several
[11:35] reposts who have actually mentioned that these other countries you know, that have attended,
[11:41] and these other countries have refused to attend, So it's already out there
[11:45] in the media, So why do you have to then dilute it? Right?
[11:48] Absolutely? I also remember Egypt and Oman, if Oman has not attended,
[11:52] are two guest nations. They're special invitings. Yeah, yeah, so
[11:58] as guest countries, as guest names. Egypt has not and now we're being
[12:01] told nor has Oman. But these are these are very important issues where one
[12:07] has to be very clear in terms of in terms of the reasons for mosterity,
[12:13] to ensure that there's honesty in our reporting. When I when nias these
[12:18] questions and there's a spin, there's no honesty in that reporting anna and that
[12:22] becomes a problem. UM security situation. Take for example, will it is
[12:28] not normal. Let's not pretend that things are normal, but things are under
[12:35] control. That in itself is a huge, huge movement towards towards ensuring that
[12:43] no one toward incident happens. But when it comes to security, UM,
[12:48] we were like, for example, I was told that you can stay these
[12:52] are the designated what else? But if you're staying samwhere else? And I
[12:54] asked, I'm I'm staying samwere else? Will movement be a difficulty? And
[13:00] did not seem like they thought that there would be a difficulty. But but
[13:03] when we when I actually started traveling, it didn't seem very convenient. So
[13:09] that certainly is. And what terms in terms of INCONVENI there are knackas,
[13:15] their barricades everywhere. And because I was traveling from a hotel a little distance
[13:20] away, UM, I had my car, but the car is a private
[13:24] car, and we had to reach a hotel to get our shuttle cars,
[13:28] the shuttle vehicles which have clearances, but this car, this vehicle was not
[13:33] being allowed at there was one place where And we understand that there are security
[13:37] concerns and they have facilitated and they're now giving us all you know, security
[13:41] clearances called this vehicle as well. But Google Road, for example from eight
[13:46] am to till very late in the evening will be shut now the travel they
[13:50] said, travel advisory, so on and so forth. Traffic is under control.
[13:52] Don't say these things because we want to invite people to come and see
[13:56] Kashmid. But the fact is that Moogle Road was shut and then people were
[14:01] a lot of people did not although you have to give it to the security
[14:05] apparatus overhand, the authorities, they did a brilliant job trying to organize the
[14:11] entire traffic. There was a time and there was a meeting, Kishmi would
[14:15] have shut down like yes, we never would have shut down completely. That
[14:16] is not the case. Mogle Road was shut down. People who are asked
[14:20] to use there were diversionary roads like the Hazard Road that they were asked to
[14:28] take. So it's not like they could not reach their destination. It was
[14:31] just maybe a minor inconvenience. But nonetheless, the fact that for us we
[14:37] had to go to places which are connected through Mogle Road, so for meat
[14:41] was it was a wait before I could get clearances and like you said,
[14:48] yes, it was a bit of an inconvenience for you. But as I
[14:52] read, there was several reports who were I mean they're from the reporters,
[14:54] Like there's an independentalist called Shark and meet and he has written in his article
[14:58] for the in Ways mentioned that the extensive security measures being taken in preparation of
[15:05] the meeting. He said that these measures the security measures include random stops and
[15:13] body frisking of individuals on the roads and impounding of vehicles without proper paperwork,
[15:18] and a significant number of preventive detentions in the value. In fact, the
[15:24] sensitivity of the situation at such anna that there would be massive security checks in
[15:28] frisking in areas because they do not want any incident. Imagine if there were
[15:33] an explosion or like the one that happened while the SCO meeting was the joy
[15:41] attack and several other incidents that happened in the run up to the SCO meet.
[15:46] Yeah, but that would have happened a little far away. When you
[15:50] have individuals involved, common person common people involved in a city area, the
[15:54] measures are way way more extensive. And yes it has convenience people because a
[16:00] lot of vehicles I'm told have been impounded. In fact, two wheelers have
[16:04] been impounded dime a dozen. And for those people who who were just going
[16:11] about their their daily life, it is not just an inconvenience. It's more
[16:15] than just an inconvenience. One has to pay that. But there are also
[16:19] conflicting reports. For example, I got a circular from a school, a
[16:25] very prominent school, A few prominent schools and Srinagar that have shut till Thursday,
[16:30] and the circuluses because of government orders. We are shutting down. But
[16:33] when I spoke to officials, they said, no, there have been no
[16:37] there is no such order to shut down schools. Only private schools are doing
[16:41] it according to their decision and they're what they think and their assessment. Private
[16:47] schools are doing what they have to do. But all the government schools are
[16:51] open. Eighteen thousand or eighteen thousand government schools are open across across the across
[16:56] German Kishmir, so across Kashmira. I suppose I was told either way,
[17:03] they're just saying that the government schools are open and it's only the private schools
[17:06] that have their own that are taking a decision according to their own assessment and
[17:11] their own dispression. So that's that's again conflicting reports. So when you said
[17:17] that, you know they are conflicting reports, but that is not what it
[17:19] is being, you know, highlighted in the media, especially in the mainstream
[17:22] media when we talk about it. Because last week Ernod d Varanus is the
[17:29] UN's Special Report tour on the minority issues. They issued a statement saying that
[17:33] the G twenty was unwittingly providing a vineer of support to a facade of normalcy
[17:41] when human rights violations, political persecution, and illegal arrests were escalating in Kashmida.
[17:47] In fact, media reports highlight that how the Shanaga G twenty event has
[17:52] been secured with a lot of military presence. So when as compared to what
[17:56] the government is claiming, Gaeta, when the government is claiming that everything is
[18:02] normal, then why do you need to do more to security event more than
[18:07] in other cities. It's clearly palpable that. Yeah, it's clearly palpable that
[18:11] you need more securities. So why don't whatever the government is claiming, I
[18:15] think you should match with the realities that's happening in the ground. But just
[18:19] to sum it up, and like you said, tight schedule. You mentioned
[18:25] the countries about Saudi Arabia not participating, then there was China. Of course,
[18:29] Pakistan not a G twenty member, but it has opposed the Shinagar thing.
[18:34] So China, of course we know for a fact. But you know
[18:38] Turkey two has joined China in his decision to oppose the meeting. There were
[18:44] representatives, but you know, in the recent past, Turkey has criticized the
[18:48] Indian government's handling of the kashmiri Is show. I think I remember in February
[18:52] when Turkey hit one of its deadliest earthquakes hit Turkey in February this year,
[19:00] India helped it out financially a lot. So I was I'm kind of wondering
[19:06] that, you know, when in China, veager Muslims are still being prosecuted,
[19:11] but China doesn't suffer because of that. And India always says that Kashmir
[19:15] is its internal matter. But given these countries decisions, you think that Pakistan
[19:22] and China have succeeded in internationalizing the kashmir Is show so much that India is
[19:27] now facing the repercussions. In fact, if anything, I'm seeing that the
[19:32] repercussions are lesser now because there was a time and these countries would not have
[19:36] come to Kashmir irrespective of what the event was and how big and who was
[19:41] hosting it. Right now we're seeing a change despite the China Pakistan pressure.
[19:48] Why because Pakistan is irrelevant. Forget about Pakistan, but China. The fact
[19:53] that the West now wants to contain China and are not buying into this now.
[19:59] China will always wolks where an influence on certain countries, But Turkey stand
[20:03] on Kashmir ash has less to do with China's influence so writ and more to
[20:07] do with the fact that it also wants to be a major player in the
[20:11] Islamic world. All these countries are primarily looking at it a lot with Chinese
[20:17] pressure, but also a lot to do with Oyic and that they have a
[20:19] role to play, so this is a sensitive matter for them. Saudi Arabia,
[20:25] for example, it's not under Chinese pressure, although yes there is a
[20:29] Iran Saudi Arabia the disagreement that is coming through through China, but that does
[20:36] not take away from the fact Saudi Arabia is a very huge important country and
[20:40] China cannot arm twist Saudi Arabia they also know the need to be the leading
[20:47] voice of the Islamic world and that that will remain unchanged for all times to
[20:52] come. So it is a very very sensitive issue. Let's see times to
[20:56] come whether if there's going to be some shift. The shift has been from
[21:00] how important Saudi for Saudi Arabia India is. So while they could not officially
[21:06] attend Turkey and Saudi Arabia did send industry representatives and that's that's the that's the
[21:11] breather. They're saying that, well, we could not, but industry representatives
[21:15] which are in nationals of Saudi Arabia and nationals of Turkey are in Swinagar.
[21:21] So so take that as it may. Also remember with Pakistan, there is
[21:25] no pressure on Saudi Arabia. There is certainly no pressure in the Islamic world.
[21:30] And why do I say that. I say that is because when Pakistan
[21:33] proposed a meeting of the OIC Foreign ministers al Kashmir, Saudi Arabia outrightly rejected
[21:41] it. That's a victory, diplomatic victory for India. When they said let's
[21:45] hold a meeting on Kashmir at a different level as well, Saudi Arabia did
[21:51] not allow that to happen. When the OYC meeting happened and Social Massaraj was
[21:57] invited as the chief guest in Riya, Pakistan objected and protested and they walked
[22:03] out. But sush Masuraj addressed the forum that is a diplomatic victory. So
[22:08] Pakistan is not the reason why Saudi Arabia is not coming. Deshmir has always
[22:12] been a very sensitive issue for the is Planet world. They're all watching in
[22:17] Saudi Arabia is a leading voice there. That certainly is one of the reasons
[22:21] why. And they also need to have good ties with China, with the
[22:26] Islamic world and then with India as well. So when the India trumped Pakistan
[22:32] by ensuring that there is no meeting that takes place in the OIS is specific
[22:34] to the issue of Kashmir, that is that is encouraged and initiated by Pakistan.
[22:44] And just to end this conversation with our day has ended, and you
[22:48] know we are recording on the second day of the meet and there's another date
[22:52] to look for. So what do you think are the key deliverables in this
[22:56] meeting? And you know, because it has kind of the much anticipated meeting
[23:03] kind of has you know? Is it? It's inching towards a controversial note
[23:07] after five members of the powerful group being stayed away, although some were represented
[23:11] through their representatives. But how do you see India navigating and trying to set
[23:17] its relations right? I mean Saudi, of course you've said, But there's
[23:21] a j there's China, you know, because they are quite like indispensable nations.
[23:26] So how do you think India is going to tread this kind of diplomacy
[23:30] with these countries? And how do you think this meeting is going to take
[23:34] its course after it ends and it culminates. Well, this is the second
[23:41] day. There's one more day to cope, but this is the most important
[23:45] one. Yesterday the meeting's kicked off with session with Ramcharan there and the whole
[23:51] idea of film tourism inviting countries to come this South Korean embassa the actually you
[23:57] coul leg with ramchair and because not so long ago the embassy had put out
[24:02] a video with all the diplomats dancing to Natuna and that's what that was the
[24:07] thrust. The second day is the critical one where all the meetings are taking
[24:11] place on eco tourism, film tourism, so on and so forth. All
[24:15] that is happening today tomorrow is an excursion day, which is what is the
[24:19] format of the G twenty. When diplomats are taken to a city, they
[24:23] first it starts with the dinner hosted by the governor or in this case Left
[24:30] and governor, and then followed by the working day working sessions, and then
[24:34] the next day an excursion trip for the diplomat. So initially there we were
[24:40] being told that they will be taken to Goulmark. But you know, the
[24:42] entire drive, we imagine a drive and a stretch with a convoy that would
[24:48] stretch two kilometers would be they would they would all be sitting ducks, so
[24:53] it was impossible to see. To see through that in a in a secure
[25:00] end would have been a security nightmare for the for the authorities, so that
[25:06] that has been canceled. But all through stree Another you will see a lot
[25:11] of areas covered the diplomats. So we're here quite excited to see set another,
[25:15] to see the valley and interact with a few people, impact some of
[25:18] the massadors of dance with the Kishmiry folk dancers. All that happened, but
[25:26] at the end of the day. What is important over here is to see
[25:30] and note that all these countries today and are coming because they think India is
[25:34] important. It is not about the situation in Pishmir, because if you read
[25:38] their country reports, their country reports still are highly critical of the situation in
[25:44] Pishmir. The country reports also the embassy and stayed that their own ministry that
[25:52] puts our travel advisories still continue to have travel advisories are not advising their citizens
[25:59] to travel to German Kashmir or they are that they have to be very careful.
[26:03] So that has that remains unchanged. On the ground, things remain unchanged
[26:08] when it comes to the situation of Kashmir and how it's perceived. But there
[26:12] has been a perceptional there has been a huge change when it comes to how
[26:21] countries, meaning governments are looking at India and in that India has become more
[26:26] important than issues and matters, you know, and this is and do you
[26:30] think this this is also the public sentiment in Kashmir. It's more or less
[26:34] like how they are looking at G twenty and the tourism meat. If you
[26:38] have interested, well, yes, I spoke to a few and not everybody
[26:44] speaks openly about the situation. But yes, they all seated an endorsement for
[26:48] India irrespective of what the what they think of Kashmir. But you have to
[26:55] give it to to to the valley for one thing, in terms of security
[27:00] and the scenario. Tourism has increased. There are a lot of people from
[27:03] other parts of India who who are here for the summer vacation and you're only
[27:08] seeing an increase in tourism. According to a report, about eighteen million.
[27:14] These are domestic tourisms or international tourisms, mostly domestic. According to report,
[27:19] they're about eighteen million tourists who traveled to German Kishmir in us as A as
[27:26] A as as data for in a year. But also the ride over here
[27:33] that most of them were Amarnathi a threes or a vechno day react please,
[27:37] you see, so religious tourism is what pulls a lot of people to gem
[27:42] and Kishmir. Having said that, even in the valley, they're saying about
[27:47] twenty five lack tourists up in the valley as well, which is not a
[27:51] very huge number, but certainly it's not a small number. It is a
[27:53] huge number. Yeah, to add to what you said, tourism, along
[27:57] with horticulture and culture, contributes around seven percent of the economy of Kashmida.
[28:03] So I mean the increased numbers of tourists I think definitely adds to the development
[28:08] of Kashmir in general. So now I think we'll just draw close to the
[28:14] conversation you know, shortened Chris. But yes, we did touch upon a
[28:18] few pertinent issues and yeah, I think so, yeah, and specifically the
[28:26] on ground insights you know, the listeners out there, thank you for tuning
[28:30] in. And when gets back, maybe we'll have a proper discussion on this
[28:33] because this is going to be there for a while and if that important developments
[28:37] will definitely touch upon it. Again. Thank you, Anna, this is
[28:41] a great conversation. To our listeners, please listen to the podcast, join
[28:45] in comment. All your views and feedback are very very valuable to us,
[28:51] so thank you so so much, so thank you so much listeners, And
[28:56] if you stayed with us till the very end of the episode, please to
[29:00] reach out to us and let us know how the episode was, how get
[29:03] us inputs were, how the conversation was. So the number is eight five
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[29:30] on the ratings that you give. We'll be back next week with a different
[29:33] episode with a different topic altogether. So thank you for staying with us,
[29:37] and thank you Gether, thank you Anna

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